Alison : Okay. I’m going to try to use this now. Try to do it.

Jean : Okay. What did we learn?

Alison : We learned to stop trying and use the life transforming power of trying less and doing more.

Jean : By Carla Ondrasik.

Alison : That’s right. And this is. I can’t wait to be interviewed by her, because it’s all about doing and being motivated and getting it done.

Jean : Yeah. And you know what, Allison… I do feel and know that you embody this already.

Alison : Really?

Jean : Do you think that?

Alison : I think I do do a lot. I think it drives people crazy sometimes. Just do it. Come on. Let’s just do it.

Jean :  You are. I feel you… You really have a that under your belt.

Alison : Really? Thank you. Thank you very much. I feel you do. You do a lot.

Jean : Well, I actually do notice from reading her book that I do use the word try. And I’m really grateful to Carla because I actually feel more a little more empowered.

Alison : Let’s try not to use the word.. Let’s just not use it. It’s odd how much it comes up.

Jean : True.

Alison : Right?

Jean : Yep.

Alison : Even just now I said it. So. Okay, well, here she is. I can’t wait to hear her.

Jean : Yes. Okay.

Alison : Uh, okay. Here she is.

Jean : Someone looks really gorgeous.

Alison : You look really good.

Carla: Hi, ladies.

Alison : Hi.

Carla: You know, it’s so funny, i don’t think this is, uh, you don’t you don’t do the images, right. It’s just through Spotify and listening. Right?

Alison : Right, right. And we just take a quick picture of you for the website.

Carla: Yeah. I’ve been listening for a long time because of Dolores. We have a mutual friend, but my husband laughs at me like I put perfume on and jewelry and I like, I want to be calm and be my best self for you guys. So no matter what I’m here, all of me is here for you.

Alison : I love that!

Jean : We are so grateful to have you on our show. And, uh, we did try to read your book and.

Alison : We tried….No. We’re teasing. We did it.

Carla: You’re killing me, ladies.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : You must get a lot of that, or you probably will. Um, but, uh,

Carla: I do.

Jean : I loved your book. I loved, loved your book. I think for me, it really spoke to to so much of the, the patterns we get into without us even knowing it. Right?

Alison : And I just what what inspired you? Like, it’s it seemed like you had been you had said a couple of times, you know, it’s been you’ve been writing it for a bit. And so it inspired you in the beginning?

Carla: It’s a great story. So here’s the book.

Carla: Nice shiny copy. Um, you know, I, I was born in Long Island, New York. My father was a gambler. We were sometimes put in situations that were sink or swim. You’re either going to like, get out of this, like in a good way, or maybe not such a good way. So, you know, the trying mindset from a very young age was really, you know, we weren’t even given the option. You just got to go and do and be. And then my career’s reflected like it’s a combination. My passion is motivating and inspiring people, and I did that in every job I’ve ever had, even if it was waitressing. It was to make their meal incredible, right? And then I worked for Sundstrand Aviation, where I was the employee relations coordinator. So I was the communication between the shop floor and upper management. I was making all the employees dreams come true. And then, of course, I got into the music publishing world, where I was for 25 years and I worked with songwriters, and their dream was to get on the charts to get their song recorded by an artist, and it just never felt like work. It’s imagine you can’t try to sell ice to Eskimos like it’s, you know, it’s and music is intangible. So you got to do and you’ve got to do big and you’ve got to do hard. So that’s just a little background. Like I feel like I look at all those careers and I’m like, well, what did make me so successful and why did it work? Because I really don’t employ a trying mindset, which we’re going to get into, you know what that means and what we think it means and why we do it. But I have also been obsessed with self-help and rags to riches stories-  I love how did you go from here to here? And I read a lot of biographies and watch documentaries. And of course, you know, Shakti Gawain’s creative visualization, all the stuff. I’m 61. I’ve been I’ve had a long time to read a lot of self-help books. And and I thought that I would write in this one book, one time a year, everything that was going to happen the next year. So I’d start out with what I’m grateful for. And then I wrote, this year, one of my writers will have a song in the top ten. This year I will buy a home. This year I will– boom boom, boom. And not everything came true, but most of it did. So I started calling it my magic book. And I really, I had groups with women and questionnaires, and I was researching this whole, you know, is it the is it the act of getting it out of your head and making it something tangible and concrete? What is it that makes it manifest like that? And what I very quickly realized was it’s the words we use. And it wasn’t ever trying, wishing, hoping, wanting. I wrote, being, doing and having. And then I was just forever triggered by that word. Try. If anybody says it in my presence, I’m just like the bells go off. Yeah. And, uh, it’s crazy. I can’t even try on clothes in the dressing room. I, I say, I am going to put this dress on and see how it looks like it, and that’s how serious I am about it. Like that’s how much and how strongly I believe in not using this word. So there you go. That’s that’s me. I’m this crazy obsessed girl.

Alison : I, I think that’s first of all, that trying on clothes is a riot. You’re like, no, I’m. You have to try that on. No, no, I’d like to put this on. I love that.

Carla: You’re going to hate me the next time you go shopping, because you’re going to be like, oh, wait, I’m not.

Alison : Right.

Jean : But it’s so true. I’ve already caught myself when I say try, and I and I told my kids that we were interviewing you today and they both said, how great, what a great way to… But you’ve got to catch yourself.

Alison : Yeah. So, you know, it’s funny because my kid drew me a picture years ago. My motto is just do it. Just do it. Like, shut up and do it, you know? Um, and yet, in your book, I was saying to Jean, I, I want to hang on to the word trying. There’s something so… So, um, I don’t know. Why is that, do you think?

Carla: Okay, so this is a great lead into, you know, what is it? It’s an awareness is what you’re talking about. It’s not a trick. It’s not a hack. It’s an awareness of a word. And you know what? You have to realize that your words, your thoughts become your words. Your words then become your reality. What am I thinking? What am I going to do? And then your actions become your reality. So it all starts in your head. Your words. Your thoughts are your words. Your words are your actions, your actions or your reality. So it’s this big trickle down. It starts here. We believe that trying is doing. That’s the first misconception when we say we’re trying to do something, we think we’re doing it. And I’m not talking about semantics. So I could say I’m going to try to put these glasses on right. Odds are I’m going to make contact, pick them up and put them on my face. I’m talking about big ticket items that affect our health, our happiness, our relationships, our careers, our dreams, all of it. And you’re going to see that very clearly as we keep talking. So, um, so we think that trying means we’re doing we think that it’s brave. We think that it’s a courageous, brave first step. We think it’s, you know, the thing we need to do to discover what it is that’s going to happen, but it really isn’t. Um, trying. Isn’t brave because it’s dipping your toe in the water. Um, what trying really means is you’re not doing anything. So we can do a very quick test, and then I’ll go on. So this is the try test, and you’re going to feel physically what it feels like. So whoever’s listening out there you can do the test also. So hold a finger out in front of you. I’m going to give you three directions. If you’re driving. Don’t do this.

Alison : Okay.

Carla: The first direction is touch your nose. Perfect. Okay. And you can take your finger off. The second direction is do not touch your nose. Perfect. The third direction is. Try to touch your nose. You’ve already touched it, and you’ve already not touched it. So you can’t do those. Physically, I’d love to see you try really hard to touch your nose.

Alison : It feels like a waste.

Carla: Okay. Does it feel confusing?

Alison :   Yeah. It feels like a waste of time. Like, what am I doing?

Carla: It’s like you’re holding yourself back. Right. So if it felt confusing and awkward and silly, our brain feels much the same way that your finger does. It doesn’t know what to do. Am I doing this or am I not doing this? Okay. And one of the reasons that to your question of why do we want to hold on to this so much is because trying it allows for this safety net. Okay. There’s no accountability. When you say you’ll try to do something, you are off the hook. I only said I would try. So if I don’t do it, it’s okay. I didn’t say I would do it, I said I would try. So we lose all accountability. Um, you can use excuses. Okay. I tried to get there at 9:00, but the line at Starbucks, you know, we’ll even blame we’ll blame a line. So excuses blame and zero accountability. You know, I have an excuse. Oh, I thought I was supposed to be here at 930, but I’m now I’m here at, you know, I thought it was 930, so I’m late for the 9:00, so we want to hold on trying. Is this, like, really gentle net of of comfort and, um, why we do this when we get back to what it really means to try is the not doing. Trying as according to the dictionary definition, is in any dictionary is an attempt or an effort to do something- right. I’m on a mission to change that definition, because it really means- I’ll kinda sorta, maybe do it if ish, right? Yeah. You’re laughing. We know it’s true.

Jean : Right

Carla: So why we do it?… The number one reason is that we’re taught to try. So it’s not our fault. And we all do it, every single one of us, because our parents taught us to try and their parents before them. Give it a try. Try harder. Just try it. Try again. You’ll never know unless you try. So we’re taught that this is a really great way to go about doing something. But that’s one of the reasons and it really isn’t. Because like I said, you’re not really taking definitive action. You’re not really doing anything. You’re kind of tricking and fooling yourself into believing you’re doing something. And there’s science behind that also, because when you’re talking about, you know, you go to a party and you meet somebody new and they say, well, you know, I’m trying to develop a podcast. I’m trying to write a book when they’re telling you that our brain doesn’t know the difference between whether you’re talking about it or doing it. The it. The brain does it now. So you’re getting hits of dopamine, serotonin, adrenaline, all the feel good neurotransmitters in your brain. And for some people, that’s enough. And that’s why you go back to the party the next year and you’re like, well, how is that book going? Well, I’m still trying, right? Have you ever encountered that?

Alison : Yes. Very much.

Jean : Absolutely.

Alison : I wrote down that you said trying is a mental activity.

Carla: Yeah.

Alison : That’s, that is such a great sentence because I have looked at, I guess I guess I have looked at trying as a I, it brings up so much stuff for me. The word trying now, like like last night, last night I got a very important project to do, and I didn’t know if I was going to make it to be here today. I didn’t know, so I said to Jean, okay, I’m going to use the word trying. I’m going to try to finish it tonight. But I was putting in my best effort, but I should I not have said trying like what could have been better words for me to use to tell Jean because, but I couldn’t fully commit. It was a lot, a lot of work I had to do.

Carla: Yeah, You’re going to be much kinder to yourself and you’re going to operate from a much stronger place. Imagine that trying is shaky ground, right? I’m going to try. You’re building in the potential for failure. The second you say, Jean, I’m going to try to be there. You’re building in failure before you even go about doing it, right? Right. So if you say to her, look, I’m going to do everything I can. I want to be on the podcast tomorrow. I may not make it because trying, not trying doesn’t guarantee success. Not at all. But it does guarantee you a better chance at success. 100%. So you’re the person that’s directing your life. You’re the one telling the world what you’re going to do. You might as well arm yourself with out bringing in failure without the potential for failure, without bringing in all your excuses and blame, with holding yourself accountable. Everything you do, even trying on that dress in the fitting room, putting it on is going to be stronger. It’s a silly example with the clothing thing, but that’s what you would say instead of I’m going to try. You know, we walk around and we say,  I’m trying so hard, but nothing’s happening. And the problem isn’t that you aren’t trying hard enough. I’m sure you are. It’s that you’re trying in the first place. You’re just on the hamster wheel of excuses, blame, accountability, and not doi

Alison : Yeah, you’re so right. Because last night I did do everything I had to do to finish it. I finished it late. I wanted to be here to meet you and be with Jean. And you’re right. I just could have said, I’m going to do everything that I’m capable of to complete this. And then it’s understood. Yeah. That if I, if it if something else happens, something else broke or whatever and I couldn’t complete it, then that’s it. That’s a great thing. Carla. Thank you. That’s great.

Jean : And I just want to add a little bit to what we were just talking about about, uh, you know, you say in your book, like, try, try the peas versus taste the peas, right? I think for mothers and maybe just some mothers because everyone has their own fabulous mothering way. But, uh, it almost sounds more nurturing or kinder to say. Go ahead. Um, you know, try it, try it. You know, I know you think you can’t read the book, but try it, honey. And it. You’re. So I want you to speak to that because it’s it’s disempowering.

Carla:  It totally is. I’m going to cover so much with that. Um, so yeah, when we offered a try, it does sound gentler and kinder and softer and nicer, but it is not kinder, gentler and nicer. It’s actually the opposite of that. And I’ll explain why. But when we tell our kids, try your best. Okay, I have a test coming up, or I’m going out for a new job. Or if they’re younger, going out for a team or going to be in the school play or whatever it is. And we say, just try your best. That’s telling them, go half hearted, go, go kind of, sort of do it and lean on all the excuses and blame. You can blame everybody else for not giving you enough time or nobody listening to you or whatever, but when you tell them to do their best, their brain is rewired. The minute you change your word from trying to doing, your brain lights up on a different level. There’s actually studies and images. When you say you are going to try your you’re Your radiating on a very low hum like a neutral. But when you say the words I’m doing this. Your brain is lighting up now. It has it knows it has to take strong, determined action. It knows what that means. So when you tell your kids do your best, they’re going to flip that switch and they’re going to put in the extra thing. They’re not going to seek out a excuses. They’re not going to they’re going to give themselves a sense of accountability.

Carla: And if they don’t make it and they still fail their test or get a lower grade than they want, they’re walking out with their head held high and they know, look, I did everything I can now. They have pride and self esteem and they can go and do it again or whatever they can. Um, when someone needs our advice, you know, we’ll we even say it in a very soft voice, you know? Have you tried this? Why don’t you try calling so and so? It’s very soft and pretty, right? What that person needs in that moment is you to tell them you need to call this person. You need to get this book and read it. You need to do this. They’re looking and seeking help. They don’t want someone passively telling them to maybe kind of do something right. I appreciate it. And um, and also with the being kind thing with the kids, women especially, one of the big reasons that we offer to try is because we think it’s mean to say, no, it’s very we say, I’ll try to be there because we hate saying no. We tell our kids we’ll try to whatever because we feel like that’s mean and cruel and not nice. But what it means is you’re not being kinder to them when you’re misleading them. You’re not being you’re teaching them that you are kind of you can’t count on this person. You’re not teaching them to keep their word.

Carla: Right. Um, and it’s not kinder to you either. For example, you know, if somebody invites you to a fundraiser and you want to be the kind, nice person and say, well, I’ll try to make it. Thank you. And you, it’s on Friday night and you get home and you’re home thinking, wow, I said I would try to go. I could go. I have nothing else going on, I should go. I said I would try to go. I know, you know, they really want me there. And it’s a great cause. And so now you’re adding all this stress and anxiety and you’re guilt tripping yourself and all the negative stuff. And you don’t get to enjoy your night because you’re like, what am I going to tell them? And what’s my excuse? And I didn’t go. So now you’ve just blown your night. If you would say to that person, thank you for the invitation. It’s a Friday night. I have a busy week. I’m sure I’m not going to make it. And I would love you to keep inviting me to the next one. But no thank you. They’re not going to wait for you. They’re not going to get your special cupcakes that they know you love in case you show up. And now they’re moving on. You’ve given them the freedom to know if you’ve given them the honesty. So it’s one of the exercises in the book. We have to practice saying no instead of I’ll try.

Alison : That was a great part of the book. I have to say the the do it, don’t try it. Those I thought the I thought those were excellent. Uh, how did you come up with those?

Carla: Well, I’ve been basically thinking about this. Any time I see the word, try and just researching it. You know, I never, ever aspired to be an author. I didn’t know what I was going to do with it. I really didn’t know. I just was obsessed and compiled. And like I said, I have study groups that I’ve done with women. And, um, but what happened was the universe kept bringing me these opportunities, and I thought maybe I should listen. Like, maybe I need to do this because I don’t know what your religion is, but I had a feeling if I don’t do it in this lifetime, I’m going to have to come back. And this is my message. And nobody else was doing it. You know, we nobody else. We all know the Yoda. You know. Do or do not. There is no try. It’s on posters and it’s, you know, hundreds of millions of people know it. But nobody ever said why, why there is no try. But to me, it was vivid and it was like this big, big, huge banner in front of me every day. So. So that’s why, you know, look, I’m, I’m 61. I’ve had freaking 3 or 4 careers. I’ve launched two kids. I want to have fun. My husband’s touring and I want to go out on tour with him and finally be able to do that. But I’m doing the book. I’m working harder than I’ve ever worked in my whole life, and and I’m very passionate about it. So that’s how the idea came up. I just the universe kept pushing me like, meet this person and go meet this person and Mel Robbins has endorsed my book, you guys. That’s just…It’s it’s insanity. That was the universe going. Carla, you you have to do this.

Jean : So when I started reading your book, Carla, I thought she is so on it. This is what we need… That it really generates self-worth  and speaks to who and what we really are.  I mean, I’m just going to, you know, I discount myself and and we sort of inadvertently, unconsciously discount another person’s powerful creative abilities. And so you’re, you’re really wise in in directing. Hey, hey, take a look. Did you fall into this pattern? Um, because there’s a power within you, and it’s our voice, our thoughts, our actions. And, um, you address all of that in your book.

Alison : Yeah.

Carla: Well, thank you so much.

Jean : Yeah.

Carla: Go ahead.

Jean :  Can you give us some tips? Like, if you’re a doer, like something that, like 2 or 3 things that you could offer that just starting to embody..

Carla: Embody, embody the whole thing? Absolutely. Um, thank you for saying that. You know, I just it makes me really sad when people say, well, you know, I’m too old and they just get all the negatives. And then, you know, life is finite. It is passing us by. We don’t have forever. The time is now. And if you could flip your your thinking and just dive in and fail, like fail big time, it’s the greatest thing that can happen to you. Which would be one of the 50 tips I could give you. Really? Okay, so the first thing is become super, super familiar with what trying means. Really, once you know that you’ve conquered a big step and then you ask yourself, you know, look, both of you are successful women. You’ve had amazing careers and life times and look what you’re doing, right? But there’s probably some area of your life where you’re choosing to try. I don’t know what it is. It could be, you know, I, I wonder, like, why do people say, well, I’m going to try to spend more time with my kids, right? You’re going to have heart that spend more time with your kids. Do the action right. Trying means that means, you know, on one Saturday we go to the park and then everything falls off the cliff. That’s a trying effort, okay? Or I’m going to try to work on my marriage.

Carla: I’m going to try to schedule my dermatology appointment every year. I have to do it. I’m going to try, try, try. We end up not doing it because that’s no action. And then we find out we have skin cancer, right. So you have to ask yourself. Look, I know I can do, I know I’m capable and I’m doing all these things. So ask yourself, why am I choosing to try here? What is the thing that I’m avoiding and afraid of? So that’s one way. Um. Another thing is literally start really small. So I love to give this little example because when you get the hit of doing, you’re just like, wow, what else can I do? Because I want that feeling again. Okay. Now. So we all have the junk drawer in the kitchen. Okay. The drawer or wherever it is that you can’t close because the empty tape container, the the scissors, the the crap that’s in there, right. All the it doesn’t even close. So, you know, I walk by that thing and I go in and out of it. I’m, like, scurrying around looking for a screwdriver and a whatever. So one day I’m like, oh, my God. Like, I’m just going to do this. I’m going to clean it. And it took me maybe eight minutes.

Carla: Okay, I just got a little garbage thing. Boom boom boom. It was so beautiful. I had everything in their little place, and I felt so good. It wasn’t as hard as I created it in my mind. Like, I’m going to try to get around to it half the time. The things that we say we’re going to try to do are just getting bigger and bigger in our heads. And, um, I did it. And then I felt great. It’s so good that I like, I’d walk by and I’d open it up and I’d look, yeah….

Alison : I’m the Same way…

Carla:  right?

Jean : God, that looks so great.

Carla: It’s so great.

Alison : I got a closet and i open it like..Oh, oh, yeah. Right.

Carla: And so do something little. So start small. As with everything, become aware of why you’re trying and that you are in fact even trying. You can enlist, help, have people around you kind of catch you when you say it. I’m a strong believer in the power of silence. So when I was writing my book, there were people in my family that didn’t even know, a lot of my friends had no idea. I don’t need to talk about what I’m doing. I just do it, because the talking part is where you’re giving away your energy and you know…. Right, does that resonate with you?

Jean : Yeah. Absolutely. And not only, um, it’s just adding you just don’t want naysayers or and you spoke about this or….

Alison : I have an idea for chapter four, carla, do this like you don’t.

Carla: . Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And you know what’s so interesting? I love what you said, Jean, about you don’t want other people’s input because sometimes, unfortunately, people that you share with, they’re not happy for you. They don’t want you to succeed. And sometimes people can come from a very loving place. You know, Carla, you’re really going to write another self-help book. There’s so many out there. I don’t want you to be disappointed. I don’t want you to, you know, so it can come from a loving place or it can come from a not. So you protect yourself and you hold all that energy. I mean, I, I have conversations with Oprah Winfrey like I’m literally sitting in front of her. I fantasize about it. You know, like, I, I, I want this to be successful, but I’m not going to share that. I’ve never even told anybody that. But you girls, you know, like i keep a lot of stuff to myself. So power of silence is so powerful. Um. Starting small. Um, uh, become aware of the use of the word try. And, um, I’m just going to I want to tell you this other thing. So we all make lists, you know, you’ve got. I would say a big thing is to really don’t make the lists the, the to do list. What that is, is a try to list. And what happens in our brain, it’s called the zeigarnik effect that not a lot of people know about. The Zeigarnik effect means that when you have a list of stuff you’re trying to get done or your to do list, it’s unfinished business, then our brain loves to hold on to and gravitate toward unfinished, and they’re stored as incomplete loops in our brain. So we have all these incomplete loops. Imagine like energy going to all those. It’s like the brain just boom boom boom focusing. And the way to alleviate that is do the one thing, just do one thing on the list. And the loop closes and it’s gone. And now you have more space and more calm. You don’t have as much as much anxiety. You have that release of energy. Wow, I did that. Then you do the next thing and the next thing. So yeah, we’ve got all these unfinished loops. It’s why cliffhangers work. You know, the entertainment world does it.

Carla: It’s it’s. wait. How’s it going to end? So we think about it all week and we talk about it. Oh, I can’t wait for, you know, Thursday night, the season ending of whatever. It’s a science. It’s real. And when you cram for a test as a student, you’re cramming. You’re cramming. You’ve got all this information. But the minute you take the test, you close the loop and then you don’t remember any of it, right? So you be aware that this is like our brain is working. And when we’re trying and doing all these things, we’re we’re not helping ourselves. We really are not helping ourselves.

Alison : Do you have any like it was interesting that you said, um, like, there might be some things that we’re avoiding or like trying to do. Do you have anything like that left in your life? Like, do you have any fears or anything like that for you currently?

Carla: Yeah, we we we try. Did you read the, uh, the intro about my son in the car?

Jean : Yes, yes.

Carla: Okay. And it was such a great analogy. It happened like, as I was writing the book and I was like, why did I keep trying to make that thing work? Why didn’t I go to the dealership and say, look, guys, my monitor. It’s Russian roulette. I can’t get the AC to work, I can’t get the radio to work. And and I just suffered with it, you know, and I got used to it. And I just expected that maybe one day it would work. Right? Trying to deal with it. And when he pulled back, I mean, we died laughing. It was incredible. But I said, that is amazing because when you stop trying, you are literally peeling back your layer of what you’re not doing. And so, of course, I mean, it is hard for me now because I’m so hyper aware of trying, but, um, and it’s not my nature. I tend to start and in the music business, if I wanted to get on a record, it was like, what do I need to do? And I just see the ending. I, I don’t I don’t see the roadblocks in the way. I just see what I want and either I get there or I don’t, or I pivot and figure out a way in. So but I’m sure I will try again in my life and they will come up.

Alison : It makes me feel a little better. And then I had one other question. I’m not sure I can fully put this into words. Um, the the I how do you know if you’ve done it? Like like like, let’s say you had written this book and you have it in your computer and it’s done, and no one wants to put it out there. Let’s just say that that had happened. It was a great book, so that never would have happened. But something like that, like you put in a lot of the work, you actually did the action and then for some reason, what you had expected or what you had thought was the full experience of it doesn’t come to fruition. Would you consider yourself still having done it? Do you understand my question?

Carla: Oh, yeah. It’s a great it’s a fantastic question. So first of all, the trying effort is, you know, I’m going to start writing the book but never finishing. But okay, you finish the book, you actually send it out to 20 publishers and everybody comes back and says, no, that’s called trying. Doing is, I’m going to send it to 20 more. You have heard all the stories of J.K. Rowling, who was turned down by everybody. So you keep going until either someone says yes or you self-publish. Okay. There are ways to get it out there. You, you. Instead of going to publishers now you go to literary attorneys, literary agents. You find someone or you find someone that will, you know, believe in your story. And you know what? If all roads lead to no, at some point and it’s not what you wanted it to be. You know, if this book doesn’t sell copies, I’ve, i’ve already won.

Carla: Yes, I’ve already won. I did what I said I was going to do. If I didn’t even get a publisher, I’d already won. I said I wanted to write the book and I did it. Now, yes, I want people to read it. I’m already a winner. But how do you know if you’ve succeeded or failed? That’s within you. And that’s your personal set of what do I want to get out of this? So if you write a book and everybody turns it down, I’m sorry. There are so many ways you can self-publish these days. You could even print up 50 copies and put them online and let your friends buy them, you know? But if that’s not the level you want, then you pivot and you say, maybe it wasn’t, uh, for me to do this. How else can I get my message out there? Maybe I’ll just become a speaker and I’ll volunteer at the local rotary clubs, which every city has them with. You know, people that want to learn and business people that you can help. So you just keep doing is the answer to that.

Alison : Thank you. Thanks. Because I thought that was, you know, you are so supportive. And this, you know, this almost felt like a spiritual book to me.

Carla: Oh my gosh.

Alison :  especially at the end. I loved your trailblazer tips.

Carla: And then soulful solutions.

Alison : Yes. And I just really thought that that I can see how the universe was supporting you because it really is just really very, very beautifully done, I appreciated it.

Carla:  wow.

Jean : And I want to speak to just a a quote. You need to be definite with the infinite.

Alison : Mhm.

Jean : Because if you’re um, if you’re, if you’re wishy washy that’s what you’re going to sort of get back.

Carla: Mhm.

Jean : We live in a reflective universe and, and so um you’re really giving us back our power to create and, and craft the lives that, that we, we really desire from our heart, rather than just half heartedly go through, through life and and what a pity it it is to to wrap up this life when we never know when we’re being called home and having regrets because we, we kind of tried through life.

Carla: So true. Having regrets. 100%. I’m very honored and I love that you both interpreted it that way. I do feel very connected with the universe, and that’s why I’m doing this. It’s not I don’t I’m a behind the scenes star maker. Like, I have made careers and I’m I’m not comfortable in the front. But you know what? I had to do it. I have to do it because that’s my gift. Um, and I also just I wanted to say it earlier, but I want to make sure that I get it in here. How are we on time? Are we okay?

Alison : Yes.

Carla: Okay. Um, by the way, we already know this. It’s already in us, and we already utilized this, but on a on an unconscious level. So I my job has been to bring this to our conscious level and our daily use. For example, you wouldn’t put your money in a bank that says we’re going to try to keep track of your money and I’ll try to have it available to you when you want it. Nope. We don’t go to that bank. Right? And you wouldn’t go to a surgeon that says, I will try to remember which limb to remove in the room. No. You want the person that’s going to amputate the correct limb. And we don’t tell our kids on their first solo drive out of our driveway, in our car, you know, try to stop at the stop signs, try to try not to drive too fast. Right. We we don’t put the money in that bank. We don’t buy the bottle that says tries to relieve your headache. It’s the one that relieves it quicker, faster and better than anybody else. So we’re making decisions on an unconscious level where we’re not allowing for trying in our life. And this is like kind of eye opening, right? We don’t think about it. And we’re also not given the opportunity to try at the same time. The airline doesn’t say, can you try to be here at 930 because we want to try to take off by 10:00? No, it’s it’s be here. But that doesn’t mean it’s going to take off just because you don’t try to get there.

Carla: Your flight may be canceled and storms may come up, but if you’re not there, you’re not increasing your odds of getting on that flight. And, um, if you don’t charge your car or put gas in your car, it’s going to stall. It’s going to not function. You can’t not pay your mortgage payment or rent payment. We don’t we’re not given the option to try to pay our mortgage and try to do this. And I think one of your guests, I can’t remember the podcast, but it was about being hungry. And I think she even said trying to eat, like, what does that even mean? I’m going to think about getting dinner. I’m going to think about what I want. Unless you’re eating the food that’s going to, you know, you can’t try to eat. You have to you can’t try to, you know. So we already know this. It’s in there. So we just need to bring it up. And all everything your relationships, when you’re not trying to be a good friend or trying to be patient with someone, or trying to be generous or trying to work on your, you know, time with somebody when you’re doing it. It’s a totally different set of actions, and they’ll be better and your business will be better. Your health will be better, your everything will be better. You’ll finally stop trying to learn to play piano. And you’re either, you know, okay, there’s one place that I tried.

Alison : I that’s a great story in the book.

Carla: Oh my God. You know, I tried I’m like, screw this. Actually, I decided I’m not going to do it. And um. Oh my God, I feel like I could just like I have the stream of conscious stuff. I want to say. That’s all in there. I could I just should read the book. Right? Um, out loud. But, um, another thing, you know, one of the big highlights when I’m speaking to women and women’s groups, which I do all the time. And if you ever want me to speak to anybody, I will. But they love it when I do the part about learn to say no. You know, it’s not kinder to say no. But this is the other part that really gets everybody excited. Is that not doing something, choosing not to do it? I’m not going to do that. Is stronger than saying I’ll try and failing.

Alison : Yeah.

Carla: So you know my example, I probably didn’t put it in the book. But, you know, I used to go on vacation with the family and I’d be like, I’m going to try to, like, eat healthy and I’m going to try to go to the gym and I would Google the gym like, oh good, they have a gym and I’m just going to stay on my plan. And then I’d get there and I’d want to sleep late. I’m like, I’m on vacation, I don’t really want to work out, and I want the fruity thousand calorie drink at the pool. And I’d have it and then. But I’d feel terrible. I’d think, wow, you know I’m not. I said I was going to try to eat better and try to exercise, and but I’m not doing that. And now I’m like, sucking at my vacation because I’m giving myself all this mental crap. But now I just say, oh my gosh, like, look out, look out, bar….You know…Look out. I am not even going to look at the gym. I’m not doing anything. I’m going to enjoy my vacation because I know when I make the decision to do it, it’ll be as strongly as when I make the decision not to.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : I think that I have definitely, as I’ve gotten older, said, no, that does not interest me.

Jean : Yeah,

Alison : It Doesn’t interest me. I don’t want to go skydiving.  It’s Not in my wheelhouse.  you know, I’m 66, I don’t I you know, I want to stay in the plane.

Alison : So. You know, I totally I, I loved that piano story so much. That so resonated with me. I don’t want to give it away because I want people to buy your book.

Jean : Yeah. Your stories…

Alison : Yeah, they are great.

Carla: Oh my gosh, thank you.

Jean : And, um, I just want, you know, I know we could we could talk forever about this gorgeous book you wrote. I also think it’s timely, Carla, because I feel as a human race, we are being asked to be more self-responsible, not to give our power away, to really speak up more and to become the best we can really be for ourselves and our, you know, and that ripples out. So, um, my goodness, you are just so inspiring! I love your book. I didn’t finish it yet, but I am. I am going to finish it. I’ve listened to. I’m not going to try. I will finish it. But this has been so great..

Alison : I really enjoyed it. So thank you so much. And we just have two quick wrap up questions. First one is our podcast is called Inside Wink. What do you think? What does that mean for you?

Carla: Yeah, I read that I have to answer that question this morning. I was like, oh, I’m so glad I read that. You know, to me it’s a couple of things. It means, a knowing that you don’t even have to express verbally, you know, maybe with two friends, just an understanding of a situation and somebody like a beautiful kind of I get it. I got it’s like your own little I got this kind of a feeling of confidence and inside wink and, um, the other one was just being in on something that nobody else is in on. Like having just having a secret, you know?

Jean : Yeah, yeah. Beautiful.

Alison : I really love that. You know, Dolores. Dolores, our mutual friend, is so lucky because you’re such you’re really a woman’s pal. You know, you’re really a good. I can really feel it from you. And then you have the last question.

Jean : Absolutely. Uh, okay. Carla, uh, do you prefer cake? Pie or ice cream?

Carla: Easy pie.

Alison : Really good.

Carla: 100%. I love pie. We’ve actually started on the birthdays now. Like, instead of just doing the cake, like, what are you going to eat? Like, we’re sick of, like, having two. And for me, in any flavor, peach, blackberry, cherry. It doesn’t matter I love pie. I love the, the, you know, eating it as you walk by with a fork. I love eating the crust. I just I love it warm. I love it cold, I love pie. It’s irresistible to me. I eat a piece of pie anytime I have an opportunity to do so.

Alison : Oh, I love that.

Jean : Wonderful.

Carla: Well, I know one of you is a baker. You’re a baker. You’re a baker?

Jean : Yes.

Carla: And, uh, you bake good pies?

Jean : You know, pie is not easy to make. It’s the crust. I mean, if you’re going to go all in the crust, you know, takes a little time and, um. But, um. Yeah, I used to make a lot of pies. Now I live on my own, so I…

Carla: You can still make pie.

Alison : I’m an eater. I’m just an eater, that’s all.

Carla: What’s your favorite?

Alison : Me? Yeah, I, I like sort of the mixture of everything. Like, I like pie with ice cream or cake with ice cream.

Carla: Or cake with pie.

Alison : Like the turducken. Like, put the ball on a plate and I’m happy. My birthday is on Monday and I’m trying to, you know, figure out how to get as much of that in me in the next week because I just enjoy it. I love it, you know.

Carla: I love it. Now you have a reason to bake a pie, Jean.

Jean : That’s right,

Alison : thank you so much. Carla.

Carla: Thank you for having me. Follow me on Instagram. Because every day, like I do really fun posts and really great little moments from our life where we try and how not to do that. So I that’s always a great thing. And I love sharing on Instagram or TikTok.

Alison : I can’t wait till I watch you on Oprah.

Carla: Right?

Carla: Yes, right. Energy. Energy out in the universe.

Alison : I know it.

Jean : We live in a possible infinite universe, so why not?

Carla: Thank you.

Alison : thank you so, so much.

Carla: I Appreciate this.

Alison : Have a great afternoon.

Carla: All right. I’m glad you made it.

Alison : Me too.

Alison : It was so much fun.

Carla: Bye bye, ladies. Thank you.

Jean : Okay. She was fantastic.

Alison : And so interesting. And I feel like it’s perfect for right now.

Jean : Me too.

Alison : For our mindset to get people for stop. Stop maybe worrying or, you know, spinning and actually start to do something because I think everyone will feel better.

Jean : Yes, exactly. I think I don’t know who I think you and I were talking about this, that sometimes when you feel anxious, the antidote to that is to actually do something. If you’re spinning in your head, do something, go for a walk, or do the thing that you’re thinking about. Just do it and you’ll feel so much lighter in your mind.

Alison : Right? And I think it’s amazing, after reading this book and speaking with Carla, how much the word try is in my vocabulary.

Jean : Yeah, we are so conditioned with that word. And, uh, I love that she talked about women and saying no. And and the falseness behind… It’s it’s a kind way to be to just say I’m trying. And actually, a real loving way is to speak your truth and go, hey, this isn’t going to work for me. Please keep me.

Alison : In the loop.

Jean : In the loop for next time or whatever. You know, whatever she she was sharing. But I loved her book.

Alison : Yeah. And it’s it’s a great read, great exercises. And, um, I like that just to start small like, right, right now, you know, just doing, listening to this podcast you’re doing and that and just to start small doesn’t have to be like, oh, I’m gonna.

Jean : Never say try again.

Alison : Right, right. Just start small. You don’t have to build a whole house. Just start. So.

Jean : That’s right.

Alison : It’s great. So thank you so much, Carla. I’ve learned a lot and.

Carla: Yes. And it was great to see you. Yeah, great to see you again.

Alison : And we know Carla through our friend Dolores. And boy, she’s another fantastic woman.

Jean : Yeah. We are surrounded by beautiful women, good friends inside and out there. Everyone is just such a a beautiful being.

Alison : We’re very lucky.

Jean : And empowered and lovely people.

Alison : And I love at the end about just giving gratitude and being grateful for where you are.

Jean : Right.

Alison : And that the opportunity to move forward.

Jean : Well said.

Alison : I’m going to eat more M&Ms.

Jean : Okay.

Alison : Okay. Goodbye.

Alison : Yes… Look at that, it’s working.

Jean: Good job.

Alison : Thank you. How you doing?

Jean: I’m good. I feel a little tired today.

Alison : Do you?

Jean: Yeah. How about you?

Alison : Um. Yeah. I mean, it’s been a busy time.

Jean: Mhm.

Alison : It feels like there’s been a lot going on.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison : And I don’t know if it’s like in the world or what. I don’t know, but I do feel like wow I got.

Jean: Yeah. You know I feel like um exactly like you….like there’s a lot going on…. So, um, but I am so happy that we get to interview Audrey Graves.

Alison : Oh, she sounds wonderful. You you met her. You saw her give a speech?

Jean: Yes. At the Braille Institute. Um, they were having their, um, Braille Challenge award dinner, and I was invited by a fellow board member from the Helen Keller International. Uh, Don Winfrey. He invited me and Allison, i was blown away and totally inspired by these children. Um, yeah, I mean, it’s it’s so interesting to see how beautiful other people help other people. And, um, so Audrey really pulled at my heart, and I was so grateful that she said, yes, I’ll be on your podcast.

Alison : Well she won Teacher of the year and the things I read about her. And plus it took I took a deep dive about Braille now.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison : And it’s fascinating.

Jean: Like, it is fascinating. Listen to this statistic. 90% of employed adults who are blind read Braille. It’s such an important skill to have.

Alison : Yeah. it’s six dots… It’s just like you’d go, wow…. Like it’s just amazing. And I can’t wait to meet her.

Jean: Yeah,

Alison : Yeah, it’s going to be great. Should we do it?

Jean: Let’s do it.

Alison : Okay. Here’s Audrey.

Jean: Audrey, this is so great. Thank you for doing this.

Audrey : I’m just thrilled when That when that message was forwarded to me, I just went, oh, my gosh. What? I was just, I was just thrilled and oh, and just so you know, it it was Husker Nebraska Cornhuskers… It was the tailgate party today. So that’s why I’m wearing..

Alison : I love it. So I love that.

Audrey : Yeah. Yeah. So we had a party today I.

Jean: Well this is Alison.

Alison : I’m Alison.

Audrey : Hi. Nice to meet you.

Jean: And I’m, Jean and I’m  the one that was at the, um, the Braille award dinner that night that you won–

Audrey : Yes.

Jean: Um, the teacher of the year award, which was a national award given by the Braille Institute. And Audrey, your speech– our table was was in awe, as was the room. But moreover you so deservedly.

Audrey : Thank you.

Jean: Um. you were the perfect person for this award. I know there are other amazing people out there, but we’re focusing on you. Congratulations. Um. And I just knew I wanted to introduce you to my dear friend Allison and have you on our show.

Alison : It’s exciting to meet you. I read all about you, and, um. Thank you. It’s, um. It’s so interesting because I feel like right now, with all the technology, um, it’s still existing Braille, it’s still so important.

Audrey : It it is, um, a lot of people with technology and technology is wonderful, but we all know that technology can fail.

Alison : Yes.

Audrey : Um, and we always say that Braille never fails. It is there for you. So when you have it on the elevator, when you, um, need to take a note or whatever it is, if, um, you are, um, an individual who is blind and uses Braille, you know, you can count on that. So it looks complicated. But if you are an individual who learns braille, it’s just like when we’re learning to read and you’re learning your letters and putting those together as words. An individual who is blind is learning that in that dot configuration instead.

Jean: And that dot configuration, that is that was really interesting.  So it’s,  do you want, can you explain?

Alison : It’s like six dots in a row, right? .

Audrey : So if you think of, um, if you’re playing a game and you have a dice, you have six dots and so on the left side, top dot would be an A. And then so if you think of the dice on the left side, you’d have one, two, three. And on the right side you have four five, six. So the top one is on the left side is an A – 1, 2 would be a B and then 1, 4,  across would be a C. So it continues this pattern as you go through. But then you have to go beyond the alphabet. So then an A is also a one. But you have to have a number indicator in front of it to make it a one. So you also have the math code that you learn. And then um, to read a book just letter by letter. You know, when we see a word, we kind of, you know, we don’t just look at your name and look at every letter. That would take, you know, forever. You kind of put it together into one word. It’s the same way with with Braille. They have contractions. So they have a contraction for EA, or they have a contraction for and or the that forms into one single cell. So after the letters you learn contractions and short form words and and so on. So there’s more than just the letters.

Alison : So that’s similar to sort of sign language where they might have um, like as opposed to spelling every single letter out, you would be able out– but just out of those six dots, you would have a contraction or symbol for a word.

Audrey : Yep. Out of those six dots. Yep.  you would um, you would make that into something else.

Alison : That’s that’s to me, I think English is a challenging language to learn anyway.

Audrey : Yes,

Alison : You know and this sounds like like, how do you know if something’s capital?

Audrey : So you have a capital sign indicator. So you would have a dot six which is a capital sign. Or if you have all caps and then you would have two capital signs. So there there is punctuation. Um, there’s uh there’s all of that… They’ve had to create more, so as you would get the At symbol, or if you would have, you know, as more things are created with, um, texting or with, um, I don’t know, all, all the cool things that are happening.

Alison : Right. right…

Audrey : They have to create that to keep up with any codes that are happening now. Um, there’s coding in braille coding classes for that. Um, they just keep up with everything that that their sighted peers are keeping up with as well.

Alison : What inspired you to begin this? Like what was your journey like to get here?

Audrey : Well it’s interesting. So education in general. My my parents are both teachers. I grew up in a small town, um, less than 2000 people. Small town. Fullerton, Nebraska. And my parents were both my teachers. I had them as my teachers. And I have family members who are teachers as well. And and I guess it was just kind of the way I was going with things. And, um, ended up going into teaching special education, and I taught in a public school. Um, I taught high school special education for about six years. And then, um, and I was just commuting just about a half hour to work. And then after having my son, I just thought, I just don’t know if I want to commute. Not that it was that far. And just look to see… Are there jobs in Nebraska City? That’s just where  we happen to live. And, um, and the Nebraska Center for the Education of Children who are blind or visually impaired is just literally five blocks from my house.

Alison : Wow.

Audrey : And I went, well, well, I don’t know what about that. And I looked at it before, but I wasn’t sure. And they happened to have a teacher opening, and I’d also gone back and got my administrative degree. Did I really want to be a principal? I’m like, ah, I don’t know. But you know, you kind of work on your master’s degree and you’re looking for leadership and and so, I don’t know, I kind of I went into that– loved students and started doing that and then went back to school to get my visual impairments degree. And then I’ve been there ever since. This is my 21st year. And I’ve worked as a teacher. Um, I’ve worked as, um, a principal and then went back to working in outreach as a consultant because my, my, my favorite thing are the students. So, um, so I’ve worked in a variety of roles here, and, I don’t know, maybe the job kind of chose me. Um, I just, I just, I love it. I love working with the students.

Jean: Yeah. I mean, everything I’ve read about you emphasizes that how much you love the students and how much they love you.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean: That you make the learning fun and interactive. It’s just not a  cardboard or whatever. And I, I yeah, I love that. So so you had to learn,  did you learn Braille?

Audrey : Yes.

Jean: Yes. so you learned Braille?

Audrey : I don’t read it with my fingers.

Jean: Okay.

Audrey : Um, I read it with my eyes, So I learned the dock configuration so I know what the dots look like. If I were to look at the dots, you know, outside the elevator, I can read that or to create Braille… So you take the six dots, you know, vertically and then you turn it horizontally to Braille. So then I can Braille that way. Um, but then there’s also programs that you use to take print and um, create Braille to be embossed. So, um, I took a semester of literary braille and then a semester of, um, um, numerical braille, you know, for math. Um, so you take that and, and then you use that to, to teach. And so then you also, you know, gain experience with the more students that you work with.

Alison : Just as a teacher, like, don’t you? I think teachers are facing such a challenging time right now.

Audrey : Yes.

Alison : And like, what do you see as the biggest challenges for teachers now? Because I have a lot of friends that are teachers. I think teachers are like miracle workers and like golden saviors.

Jean: Heroes.

Alison : Yes, a lot of them really feel so, you know, AI and texting and all these things that are happening like, what are you what are you feeling about everything? Like some challenges.

Audrey : A lot of the challenges are, you know, you go into teaching because you you love what you do. You love the students. And then, but there’s so many expectations on top of that. There’s some there’s a lot of there’s a lot of paperwork that goes along with it. And then you need to prove this and prove this and then state testing. So for example, I had a district, um, that I just went to yesterday, and they were already doing maps, testing. You know, kids have been in school for a few days and they’re already testing the kids. Mhm. Um, and then trying to get teachers is difficult. Um, people don’t, aren’t always wanting to go into teaching anymore because, um, the salaries are not the greatest. People don’t go into teaching for the money. Um, and then sometimes the support, you may have large class sizes and not have the support that you need. And, and there’s, there can be challenging students and challenging parents, just as many as the wonderful students and the wonderful parents.

Jean: Right.

Audrey : Um, and then you’re thrown in so many directions. The technology is always changing. Um, the rules are always changing. The expectations are always changing. Um. Safety. We saw that in the news.

Alison : Yeah.

Audrey : Recently. Um, it’s there’s a lot of difficult jobs out there, and and teaching is one of them. And we just we need the the understanding and support. And sometimes the fun is lost because you get overwhelmed. And there’s so many expectations that you have a hard time having fun with the students.

Jean: Yeah.

Audrey : So.

Alison : Right. Definitely. And then on the flip side, why do you love it?

Audrey : Why do I love it? I, I guess I, I love it just because every, every student comes with their, just their unique abilities, um, and personalities and, and it just every kid brings…. So much joy and potential into this world. I mean, I was working with a student today and we were doing this story on apples. And, um, and the student has no vision. And we were, um, doing things with, um, counting apples and the concept of them. And, and it was just this book on it, and he was kind of tapping each of the apples, and then the wind blew the apple, and then he decided he wanted to throw that apple. He thought that was hilarious. It was just like. And then he would hear it bounce, and he just thought it was the funniest thing ever. But then we had something on the iPad with the story that went with it, and just as soon as we went, he, um, learned how to touch the iPad to advance the story, and then he could do it on his own. So he gained a skill that made him more independent on turning that page. So he learned that skill. Um, or in another school district, i have a student who is a senior, and she lost vision in her high school years, and she’s college bound and going in this year. She came in, you know, ready to utilize technology that she has and think about those next steps and and and go from there. And just seeing her-  the challenges that she faces, yet looking towards the future…. You know she inspires me to want to do more. So I think it’s just you never have two days that are the same, and it keeps my brain flowing. And I think that’s what I love about it is that I’m never bored…i’m always looking to be creative. And how can I help this student learn? And that’s that’s what I love about it.

Alison : Oh, I think I love that.

Jean: Yeah. That’s so beautiful. And and that’s what you spoke about when you received your award and how fulfilling it is to be in service, of service to another human being.

Jean: And. Children that come in with these personalities… there are no filters, i got to see some of them at the award evening and it is, you know, really a beautiful thing when you are inspired by another person going like, and I don’t have to I know you understand what I’m saying, but very similar to, to what you were sharing with the student. You know, you get inspired by wow, you’re moving through that? Okay. Then That will help me be inspired and i love that. Do you, um, how many like, how many students do you teach in one semester?

Audrey : Oh, it varies. It varies. So, last year I would see students in,  i had around 25 students that I would see in different areas. So I would go to this school and I had six different students that I would see on this day. And then I would go to this school and I would see five here, and then I’d go to this school and maybe have 1 or 2, uh, so it depended on each school. But when you would travel, you know, it’d be an hour there and back. So you have to travel time as well. Um, each year is is different. And the students, some students I see once a week, some students I see twice a month. It just depends on the need. So, um, so this year, I, you know, there’s some students that I see, um, weekly and I’ll see them for 30 minutes a week to catch up. And then I have another one I see for an hour and a half a week, just because of the amount of items that she’s working on. And then I’m also working with some students on campus here at our center for the blind. So it truly changes. And then sometimes it’s the students having some concerns with their vision, so they’ll reach out to us and then we’ll go out and do an assessment. Um, some students come on campus and we’ll do, um, some work with them in an apartment in our residential area to work on cooking skills, cleaning skills.

Alison : Wow.

Audrey : And and we’re even this year we’re going out to different areas and inviting students to come to local educational service units to, um, work on social skills and cooking. You know, we’re coming to them to help provide services.

Alison : That’s fantastic. Yeah.

Jean: So you do more than just teach Braille?

Audrey : Yes. So, yeah. And it all depends on the student’s needs. So. So I teach braille. Um, I teach, um, technology. So let’s say a student needs to use a Braille device… I may have never used it, so, girl, you better learn how to do that.

Alison : That’s right.

Audrey : Um. So, uh. Yeah. So you get you you have to learn it. You can’t just say, I don’t know how to use this. You have to learn.

Alison : Wow.

Audrey : Expanded core curriculum, that’s another area where all the different skills that that we would learn… If you are someone who has has vision, if you heard your mom or dad in the kitchen doing something, you might go in and go, oh, they’re putting toast or putting toast.  haha they’re putting bread in the toaster. If you’re blind, you don’t know what’s going on unless someone tells you or shows you. So expanded core curriculum has to do with all that incidental learning that you don’t you don’t know. So it’s all these areas that you have to explicitly teach to students. So I have students that I’m working with on laundry skills or independent living skills or social skills or literacy or  math. It’s just all dependent on their individualized education plan.

Alison : That’s huge. It’s huge to me.

Jean: I don’t know how you had time to to go and take a shower.

Alison : that’s kind of incredible. That’s a lot.

Audrey : It it can be. But this is why, you know, we have our team, and we can go… Okay, what are you doing about this? And how are you doing this? … And we have a great team nationwide. It’s a  low incidence disability, but it allows all of us to really know each other nationwide.

Alison : And you had mentioned one child earlier, that was had sight and then lost it, and then one child that never had sight.  have to address that differently? Like is there an a an emotional. ,I mean I’m wondering that must be an incredible life change that person’s going through?

Audrey : It can be. Yes, it can be a huge difference because you could have a student, a child that has been blind since birth. So there’s never been that concept. And sometimes they may wonder what that would be like? But it hasn’t been there. Or they may have some faint memories or may just see color and light, but it hasn’t been there. And then you have someone who has been in an accident and lost their sight suddenly, or a genetic condition, and is gradually losing vision, so it changes monthly. There is such an emotional impact that goes with that. You think about someone who is turning 16 and their peers are all getting their driver’s license. And then you were expecting that, and now you’re not.

Alison : Yeah.

Audrey : How does that not affect you or all of your life? You’ve read print and now it’s blurry. How do you access the print? You’re not a Braille reader, right? Are you going to pick that up right now? Um, you may learn some of that, but maybe that’s not your primary. So you’ve got to look at other tools to to be able to keep up. So you have to factor that into, um, the lessons as well.

Jean: You wear so many hats, Audrey

Audrey : There are a lot of parts to it, but I think it all comes down to communication. You  talk to the parents and you talk to the team, and you just look at the student and you just try to think of that student. If this was your own child and what would you want for them, and what would you want them to access and the opportunities that you would want for that child? And I think that is what makes the difference, um, for that student. And that’s, that’s what I try to look at.

Alison : You must have you just must be a fountain of love or something because, like, that’s kind of amazing. And could you tell me, I keep picking your brain because my eldest child just has a job as a teacher right now, and just new and starting… How do you keep your kids motivated?

Audrey : Well, it can be hard some days because you will have you will have students that no matter what you do, they’re not motivated, right? And you can try as much as you can and they won’t be motivated. And and you just sometimes have to get to the end of the day and realize you did the best that you could. You put the effort together, you put forth the effort, and you did what you could, and you have to stop there because otherwise you’re going to take that all on yourself and it’s going to bring you down. Um, it you want to have success, but you can create the opportunity, but they’re not always going to take it. Um.

Jean: But that’s a great way for life.

Alison : I was just going to say.

Jean: Just just showing up, doing your best and then letting it go. And some days it’s going to be, wow, I, I nailed it. And other days is like, get me through this.

Alison : Yeah, exactly.

Audrey : And and I’ll tell you, I have my days. You know, I have way more good days than bad days. Um, I have days where I come in, I’m like, oh my gosh, how am I going to get this done? And I have all these reports, and it’s been a late night doing this, and I’m going, I’m not even prepared for tomorrow.

Alison : Yeah.

Audrey :  I am very much human. And there’s days I’m like, oh, what is going on here? But I, I have to allow myself those moments and then do, do what I need to do.

Alison : Right.

Audrey : Ice cream,  this, that… Whatever. Vent to my friends. Um, I have my  key colleagues. Whatever you need to do… But then you have to, you can’t dwell on it. You have to find your spot to move forward.

Alison : …Right. And now, if you were going to talk to the parents that are listening or the grandparents that are listening… How can you really be the best family ally for a teacher?

Audrey : I think the best thing is, of course, you want to be a team player. And that’s easier said than done, because sometimes you are a part of a team where you maybe don’t have someone who’s listening very well on the team or, um, or just doesn’t mesh very well. Um, you have to look at all the viewpoints, because there might be times that your, your child may not be working as hard as you think they are or vice versa or whatever it is. I, I think in every situation it comes back to communication. Don’t don’t go in just ready to fight, you know, go in with your points, you know, go in with your information, go in with a conversation and a plan and then and then if things don’t go where you need it to go, then move on to those next steps. Take things one step at a time, but be be the best advocate you can for your child, but also make sure your child’s taking responsibility for what they’re doing as well. don’t save them on everything. They need to take some responsibility too.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean: That’s challenging.

Alison : That kind of hit home. Yeah. Yeah.

Jean: Because we all, you know, most parents want to be very supportive and helpful, and it’s hard to see someone you love struggle, but there’s growth in the struggle. And like you spoke about, the self empowerment that comes, which is…. That’s something you have to build on your own, and, the fact that you’re giving that, you know, to, to these young people who are…

Audrey : Yeah.

Alison : So yeah, I do have to ask you, though, did you say your parents were your teachers?

Audrey :  My  mom was my third grade teacher, and that’s always awkward. I’m like, do I call her this,  or… And then my dad,  i had him in some middle school English and history classes and yeah,  he was the stricter teacher and my, my classmates…. They’d be like, why didn’t you tell us he was having a pop quiz? I’d say, Because he didn’t tell me. So, yes, it was a very small town, it was interesting.

Alison : Wow. And I know my kids, when they were in middle school, wanted not as much to do with me. And there’s your dad in the class.

Audrey : Well, but my dad also his room also, um, had all the concession stand candy in it. So that was always nice, because if they wanted a snack, they’re like, hey, hey, can we go in here? So that was always popular too.

Alison : That’s so that’s so funny. So it was a good side.

Audrey : It was a good, there was a good side.

Alison : That’s right. That’s right. What would be your like your wish, um, for where education could go? Or do you have any ideas of how we can make it better? Do you know?

Audrey :  that’s a big question.

Alison : Yeah, because it feels like right now there is so much like, um, there’s so much happening on you know, US government level, and then like, even between the states and the event that just happened in Michigan, (school shooting) it just is a lot…

Audrey : It is. And, you know, I think back to when I was a child, uh, you know, I think back then and how things are now, I just don’t remember as a child having so many, you know, statewide tests. And I get that we need to make sure that the kids are learning. I understand all of that, but it feels like a lot of times, we are teaching to the test. Teaching to the test. And then you have so many extra things you have to get in, that we’re losing time on recess and we’re losing.

Alison : Yeah.

Audrey : Um, the importance for music and arts and all these other things that develop what a child needs that’s where kids are getting upset or angry because they’re not getting these other outlets. Right. Um, and then things are too hard where kids are getting frustrated. And this is where behaviors come out, because it is just too hard. You try to stick me in a in a class for upper physics and see how I’m going to do in there, and I’m  going to get frustrated. Um, I wish that we could put some funding into education that would provide the assistance that our students need. Um, The materials, the assistance that they need that is supporting other areas. You know, everyone needs a good education in this world to get to whatever job we are in this world. Why? Why don’t we focus more importance on it than what we are?

Alison : Yeah, that’s a great answer. That’s a great answer.

Jean: Yeah.

Audrey : Let’s prioritize it more, because every single person in this world needs a good education. So we need to prioritize that.

Jean: Yeah. And it’s just not factual education. I think education really helps one develop their own inner way of being. What resonates with them… And, um, yeah, and I think that, um, to your point before, communication is so important and education really helps expand the way we communicate, you know, and move in the world.

Audrey :  also, we have different routes, you know, not every student is college bound, and that’s okay. Right. And I know a lot of schools do that already, but everyone has a different path. And and you want to go the path that’s best for you.

Alison : I know, I just totally agree. I don’t think education is cookie cutter. Um, and I, just the volunteering in the schools where my, where my kids went and you go, wow. Like the teachers that seem to facilitate and get the most done are the ones that actually are looking at each kid individually and allowing a child to explore their own personality a little bit more. You know, and it sounds like from all the reading we did about you, that you actually you actually do do that. Like you, you bring in a lot of other modalities. And I think that’s exciting. Kids must really look forward to you.

Audrey : That’s what I hope.

Alison : Yeah.

Audrey : That’s always my hope, is that they that they do want to to have that time with me. So even if there’s something that they’re really not excited to work on that they’re willing to because they, they have enough of a relationship with me that, okay, I’m willing to work on the harder things because I know this is something that I should work on and it’s important. And then we’ll get to these other things as well. Um, if you if you build that relationship and that mutual respect, then they’re willing to do to do more. And and then we, you know, then we do the goofy things too. You know, there’s times I’ve broken out in song and this and that, and then I go, what? Oh, God, what did I just do? I don’t even know. And I try to be, you know, have some of my personal items, like I talk about my son Ethan, and he is, you know, and he’s met some of the students at different things. So they know there’s more to my life than, you know… Sometimes we thought our teachers never left. We’re like… our teachers use the bathroom. haha  Do they do anything?  So they know I have a life outside of school, too.

Alison : I remember seeing a teacher once outside of the class and I was like, oh….Like, is something wrong ..I’m like… Like I couldn’t picture that they went home somewhere and they.

Audrey : I Know.

Alison : I was so little it didn’t make sense. It was such a funny thing to see them in the world.

Audrey : Yes.

Alison : I love it when teachers are vulnerable and bring a little bit of their.. Um, my kids third grade teacher had pictures on there, like, around their desk of their family.

Audrey : Mhm.

Alison : And it made them just realize, oh, you have a kid that’s sort of my age.

Audrey : Yeah.

Alison : you know, I kind of, I really kind of love that. I think that’s great. You seem like a lot of fun too. You seem you seem kind of goofy and fun.

Audrey : I, I should have brought– if my son was not at school right now, he would tell you that…. Yes. You would not believe that in elementary school, I was very shy. I was very quiet. I don’t know what happened. Um, but, yes, i’m goofy. I like to be goofy. I like to have fun. Um, yeah. We’re we’re always joking.  My friends and I, and my family, we’re always fun. They’re always like, you’re kind of loud. I’m like, yeah, sometimes. But I think some of the struggles in my life have helped me bring out some of that as well, because, I mean, I’ve had a lot of struggles, um, health wise that, you know, I’ve had my moments where I could just let it really knock me down and just go, what’s the point? And, and, um, but I, you know, I allow myself to have those rough moments and then I go, okay, I can either let this be the bully and let it take this day, these days away from me. Or I can go, nope, nope, I’ve got today and I’m going to, um, and I’m going to have a great one. So I think that’s helped me turn things around too.

Alison : I love that you call it a bully.

Audrey : It is.

Jean: Because it’s so, so true. That voice that is, is taking our joy away. It’s it’s a bully.

Audrey : Yeah.

Jean: That’s what bullies do.

Audrey : Yeah.

Jean: They make us feel less than wonderful.

Audrey : Yeah.

Alison : Yeah, and I love that you’re vulnerable. You know, we we I think that’s the biggest thing that we talk to a lot of people and the people that really open up and just are really truthfully themselves as opposed to what I think a persona of what they think. And you definitely are totally authentic and wonderful.

Audrey : Yeah.

Alison : So I think your students must definitely pick up on that.

Audrey :  I hope so.

Jean: I’m sure, everything I’ve read about you  supports that. You are really wonderful. Yeah.

Audrey :  thank you.

Alison : Do you want to ask our two final questions?

Jean: Okay. So, Audrey, as you know, we wrap up with two questions. And the first one is what does the term or word (because Allison thought of it this word) insidewink mean to you?

Audrey : I had to think about this, which I’m sure everyone says that. So when I thought of inside wink, I thought this meant, you’re kind of your true inner self. Kind of that part of you that no one else will ever really know. You know, we all have those inside Side thoughts, memories, unique things that we carry with us. And that wink part is kind of the knowledge that, hey, I don’t have to share that and I can share parts, or I can choose who knows that part of me and the inside wink is kind of knowing your inner self and being in control of what you want to share with others. So kind of like the wink is like, oh, I can share that or I don’t have to.

Alison : I love that, that that gives you a lot of power.

Audrey : It does. It does.

Alison : We hadn’t heard something like that. So that’s.

Audrey :  oh, really?

Alison : That’s a good one, Audrey.

Jean: And there’s no right or wrong.

Alison : Yeah. We just love the fact that people… And it really reflects a lot of who they are.

Audrey :  yeah

Alison :  i love that— that you don’t, you know, I feel comfortable with you, i’m going to give you a little more, maybe not. Yeah, I kind of love that. But now here’s like the best question because you mentioned it, you mentioned something earlier. What do you prefer, pie, cake or ice cream?

Audrey : Well, you know, of course you gotta love all three…but…

Jean: of course.

Audrey : If I had to choose, I would say cake.

Alison : Really?

Audrey : Yes,

Alison : Because, I thought you were going to sayIce cream?

Audrey : No, I love ice cream. I love it, and I’ve had way too much of it lately. Way too much. But I love it. But there is something about white cake with buttercream frosting that I, i can’t turn down. I don’t know, I don’t know what it is, or like when you have the layer with that middle layer…Or I don’t know what it is, and I don’t know if it’s because it comes with like joyful things such as weddings, baby showers. Yeah. All that. It’s always that white cake with the buttercream frosting. Yeah, there is something about that cake that I love it more than anything, I love it.

Audrey : And you don’t always get it.. Like I go to the store and get ice cream and this and that. But to get a really good piece of white cake with buttercream frosting, that’s my favorite.

Jean: Oh, Julie, if you were here, I would totally bake that for you.

Alison : Audrey.

Jean: I mean Audrey. Sorry. I’m so sorry.

Audrey : Oh. You talked to a lot of people.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean: actually, you were my sister’s name, and I i wasn’t even looking at your name for a long, long time. Oh, Audrey. That’s my sister’s name.

Audrey : Oh. That’s okay.

Jean: So sorry about that.

Audrey : No. That’s okay.

Jean: But do you bake? I don’t know how you would have time.

Audrey : I do actually…i’m known for, um, my chocolate chip cookies.

Alison : Oh.

Audrey : I, I don’t know why they turn out really well. And everyone’s like, oh, gosh, will you bake those? But yeah, I do like to bake.

Alison : That’s fantastic. Well, you know, you got my mouth watering… It’s it’s we we celebrated our birthdays with our friends. We have close birthdays, and we had a piece of that,  like not a white, but like a chocolate with the cream in like, you know, with the big. And man..

Jean: It was delicious.

Audrey : Oh I would. Yeah, that would be good…They area all good. My mom makes, um, really good homemade pie.

Alison : Oh.

Audrey : Um, and my dad has made pie as well, so  I guess I’m spoiled. I always have good pie, too, but they’re all good… You can’t go wrong.

Alison : Yeah.  Thank you so much. And I just can’t even tell you how much we appreciate what you’re doing in the world.

Audrey : Well, I appreciate you guys doing this and sharing. So I think a dog just walked in.

Jean: Hi, buddy. Say hi to Audrey.  Buddy’s here.

Audrey :  I appreciate you guys. Um, I looked up, I looked up, um, inside wink. And I’m going to be following your guys’s stories and so on, that you you’re focusing on positive stories and sharing the good in the world. Um, because it seems like so much that’s reported is so negative anymore that it’s nice to hear, um, positive things.

Jean: And that’s why we wanted you on the show, audrey.

Alison : Thank you really are just so great. And please stay in touch with us.

Audrey : I will, yes, I would love, I would love to stay in touch. That would be great.

Alison : If anything occurs to you or you want to share any thoughts in the future or something good that occurs to you, please, please contact us.

Audrey : Yeah, if you ever want anything shared, um, like in the cancer realm too, I don’t know if you ever do anything with that. I know I didn’t share a lot about that in my speech, but, um, I know that’s near and dear to your heart, Jean. Um, but, um, I’m six years into metastatic breast cancer survivor, and that was my health struggle, that I talked to you about, um, I was first diagnosed at age 29 with breast cancer when Ethan was one.

Alison : Wow.

Audrey : And then was diagnosed with metastatic breast cancer, um, six years ago. And it spread to my bones. And then just actually on Thursday, on Thursday, they found, uh, um, a few small spots on my lungs. So coming off of that, but you know, a bit rough over the weekend, but they’re very, very small, so I’m having to change the medication tonight actually. , that’s where I take every day, to just because you just don’t know, you just don’t know on all these things. So, um, but I have a lot of good mentors and support, and I overall feel, you know, I feel great. I don’t.

Alison : Uh-uh.

Audrey : You have to  focus on every day. But if you ever, If you ever want to talk anything about anything with the journey in that aspect, I’m happy to do that.

Alison : Thank you,

Jean: Thank you.

Alison : Yeah.  I have to say, you you, uh, we will send you so much love and support and please stay, please stay in touch.

Audrey : Yes, yes.

Jean: You’re so special.

Alison : You are. You really are.

Audrey : Thank you.

Alison : And you, and I feel your strength.

Audrey : Thank you.

Jean: Absolutely.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean: And your joy, audrey, is infectious.

Alison : Yeah.

Audrey : Thank you. I appreciate you guys. You guys have made me feel so special through all of this. I was telling everyone, I’m like, I’m doing a podcast tonight. ..I’ve been talking back and forth with Jean… I said, she’s that’s why I feel like I already know you. I said, you’ve been so nice and so sweet.

Jean: I feel the same way..

Audrey : Okay. All right.

Alison : Okay. give our love to your family and have a great day.

Audrey : Thank you. All right.

Alison : Bye.

Alison : She was wonderful, wasn’t she?

Jean: She was I, I just loved her, from the minute i heard her speak at the award ceremony, and she really proved to be someone, uh, so special. And talk about having her own challenge and still choosing to be of service and be inspiring and inspired by life.

Alison : Oh, you put that so well. Because when she talked at the end there about her cancer journey, I thought, and you’re and you’re still giving all this to everybody, right? And, um, what a blessing she is. What an amazing and a teacher of the year… I mean, and being a teacher right now is so complicated. Do you know?

Jean: That’s so true. But like she said, she takes every day, right? And I think that’s. That is the ticket. It’s just to stay present, do your best.

Alison : One step in front of the other and then all of us for her and anyone can send love and kindness and support in any way that we can.

Jean: Yeah. And also I also was thinking that it is having compassion for ourselves and other people because we don’t know what others are going through, and a lot of us keep a lot inside. So, you know, just honoring everyone’s path. And, boy, she’s really doing it.

Jean: Yeah. That was so beautifully put. Thank you. Thank you for that. And thank you so much, Audrey. You are a hero. And, uh.

Jean: And a great spirit and a beautiful woman.

Alison : An inspiration and fun and a cake eater.

Jean: Go cake eater! I love cake also. Okay.

Alison : That’s right. Well, have a great day. And, uh, we’ll talk to you soon.

Jean: Bye.

Alison : Bye.

Alison : Hello. Hello. How are you doing today?

Jean : Are you enjoying the technical studies we’re having this morning?

Alison : We are not technically savvy at all.

Jean : At all.

Alison : But we’re laughing very hard. I’m crying. We’re laughing too hard about this.

Jean : Thank goodness we are self-employed.

Alison : What if someone relied on us for something? It would be terrible tech wise. Like what if. What if someone needed something? We were saying we’re trying to get, like, um, one of our Emma or our team person, and we couldn’t even zoom properly or or text. And I’m like, we’re writing you a letter, Emma. We hope you get it in a couple of weeks. Oh my God.

Jean : Oh, but it’s over.

Alison : That’s right.

Jean : It’s over. And we’re gonna now talk about the magic and the tragic.

Alison : Which is a perfect gift resonating with us here.

Jean : What would be the magic in the tragic of the tragic would be technology?

Alison : Right.

Jean : The magic would be?

Alison : That eventually we did it.

Jean : Yes. And that we’re growing through it.

Alison : We got through it. We’re growing. Right? We decided we don’t love it. We have a viewpoint now.

Jean : Right. And now we’re going to have macaroni and cheese together.

Alison : Which we don’t need, but we’re gonna eat it. Right. But this is this is actually an amazing book.

Jean : Yes. We both really enjoyed reading John’s Tsilimparis’  book called, “The Magic in the Tragic. Rewriting the script on grief and discovering happiness in our darkest days.”

Alison : Yes, and it just is such a good book. And I thought at first, all this is going to be kind of depressing, but it’s not at all. It’s really hopeful. And, um, I got a lot out of it.

Jean : Yeah. Me too. Me too. I, I guess I think, uh, this is such a great book. Just to read when your life isn’t in turmoil or you’re going through something really hard because you’ll have this as a beautiful, uh, tool book to fall back on.

Alison : Yeah. And grief doesn’t have to be, um, you know, losing a parent or something. He was saying, like, in a job, uh, moving, um, a friendship.

Jean : Empty nests?

Alison : Exactly. Empty nests. So here he is. We love him. Here’s John.

John: Nice to see you both.

Alison : It’s so great to meet you and see you. Thank you for doing this.

Jean : Hi John, I’m Jeane.

Alison : And I’m Alison.

John: Hello. Nice to meet you.

Alison : Hi.

Jean : Wow, what a book you wrote.  Um, yeah. I wish I was out a few years ago.

John: Thank you. Yeah.

Jean : But I also think to myself, um, I think this is such an important book to having your hands before you go through something so challenging. Uh, because when you’re going through it, i don’t know about you, but I didn’t feel like reading much, and, um, certainly this information is so valuable, John. Thank you.

John: Thank you. Thanks for taking the time to read it.

Alison : Yeah, we really we read a lot. And, uh, this was was excellent. We we have it. I have mine is all dog eared. We have nose ends to remind us. Um, could you just tell us a little bit about yourself and how you started on this path?

John: So I’ve been a psychotherapist for about 30 years now, just a little over 30, and I’ve worked a lot with people dealing with grief and loss. And so the idea of it, title of it, everything came to me over the years. But, you know, I’m no stranger to tragedy, as most people are not either. And so, um, I have found ways to dignify my grief as opposed to running from it or thinking that, you know, it’s bad for you to stay in it for too long and you need to get over it quickly and stuff like that. So, um, so a combination of my work, um, I love to write, so I like to express myself. I like to help people. And, um, I enjoyed writing about all the classical references in the book and the music and all that stuff, and those are things that have helped me and that have helped my clients. So I knew I was going to write the book years ago, but it just took me a while to put it together. So, um, and if either one of you have ever written a book, you know, it takes a long time to get it done unless you publish it yourself, which I was not interested in doing. So in answer to your question, the origin comes from my own experiences, but also as a clinician as well. Using a lot of these tools with my patients and clients.

Jean : Yeah. And I think that makes you extra compassionate, having gone through your own challenges to to sit with people and hear what they’re going through.

John: So thank you. Yes, I’d like to think so.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : You pepper some of those experiences in the book, but it’s really not about you, which I found interesting. Like you’re very present in it, but it’s not your necessarily your journey. And, um, I feel like we’re living in a time where there is grief on many levels. And have you seen that people’s, um, feelings have changed over the past few years? Did you start writing this during the pandemic?

John: I actually did, good call. I mean, I’ve been thinking about it for years, but during the pandemic is when I started writing it. And yes. So it’s interesting that you say that because, you know, the new CDC numbers are not great. So in the last ten years, depression, instances of depression in the United States has gone up by 60%. And since the pandemic, even more so, most mental health clinicians will agree that since 2020, the beginning of the pandemic, we’ve seen a spike in both anxiety and depression. And again, to your point, given today, the state of affairs in the world, the way that our country is right now, just everything, um, has really left people living with dealing with a different kind of uncertainty. It’s a different kind of norm these days, and I think people are struggling a lot more than ever. Um, but, you know, there’s still a lot of hope around that because the pandemic, one of the bright things about the pandemic is that it made people reach out much more. And before, you know, the governing bodies of all the psychotherapy practices and psychiatry practices weren’t so keen on online therapy. And so now anybody, even if you live two hours away from a big city anywhere in the US, can access somebody from their computer. So that’s been one good thing. So more people are reaching out. But we’re also seeing higher instances, as I mentioned, uh, of anxiety and depression.

Jean : Uh, yeah, I, I noticed that with, with, uh, my kid’s friends-  and my kids are in their early 30s, this anxiety.. and I think there’s a book out called like the, The Generation of Anxiety or something like that. So and thank goodness to your point that the, um, the stigma around mental issues has lessened. Mm. You know, I, I know that my parents, I knew they were going through a lot of stuff, but it was in the closet.

John: Yes. Agreed. Um, that’s what a lot of people tell me. My parents were the same great parents. Immigrants. Uh, but, you know, we didn’t talk about things the way that we should have, in my opinion, and that maybe people do more of these days. Um, also, people are also dealing with what’s called a prolonged grief, like a constant state of, like being stuck in, in constant grieving or bereavement about so many things that have happened. And, you know, even though the pandemic was years ago, people are still assessing their losses around that and still dealing with all of that stuff. So and then here in California, we had the fires in January. We’ve had a lot of stuff going on. And um, so yeah, it’s pretty indicative of what we’re seeing as clinicians in psychotherapy.

Alison : Is grief and depression the same thing?

John: So I’m glad you asked, because first of all, the magic and the tragic, my book doesn’t just address grief as in having lost a loved one. It addresses all the adversity and the challenges and the myriad of things that we go through in life. It could be divorce. It could be breakups. It could be faded dreams, um, career disappointments, financial hardship, fallout from natural disasters. And usually when people are in grief, they usually have low mood. They sometimes feel hopeless. They sometimes stop doing things that that give them pleasure. So in answer to your question, yeah, usually when you’re in grief, you have some degree of depression and sometimes some degree of worry too. But I would say depression is probably the most prominent, um, symptom you get.

Alison : Because I just think that So many people I know now, even though you’re right, they have that… They have hope, there is also this underlying sense of, um, of loss. Uh, on so many levels. And I’m wondering, in your book, you talk a lot about, uh, what is, um,  emotional resilience, but also part about, like, this is a part of us, like, this is part of the human condition, and we can’t just…. Can you go into that a little bit for our listeners?

John: Yeah. I mean, the truth is, we all know this, that nobody likes to suffer. Nobody, and rightly so. Why suffer if you don’t have to? But the problem with that and so of course we all avoid it. But the problem with that is that everyone is going to suffer no matter who you are. And so we know that if you avoid suffering, if you push it away, if you push it back and you don’t work through it and deal with it in positive ways, it can get worse for people. So my book focuses more on taking a new approach to your grief. Whatever it is that you’re challenged by and not necessarily try to create joy around it because nobody likes to suffer. But can you dignify it in different ways? Can you find some of the beauty in it, or even some of the, the, um, the aesthetic in it? And that’s what helps people get through it? Um, I learned that when I was going through a difficult time, if I paired beautiful music because music is my aesthetic for the two of you, you may have different aesthetics, and the aesthetic can be anything.

John: It can be your ability to find joy and to find peace and beauty in everyday things. It could be gardening. It could be your commitment to fitness. It could be almost anything. So for me it’s music. So when I found that I paired sometimes even melancholy music with my sad feelings, my feelings changed. And in some way I was reassociated with them with different things. I was reassociateing my grief, with curiosity, with personal growth, and sometimes with spirituality. You know, for a lot of people, spirituality is the way you know, your aesthetic and even music is the way that maybe sometimes God or the universe or or, you know, the divine speaks to you. So people have a strong connection to that. And I was feeling a little of that, too, although I’m not a very religious person or a very spiritual person, but, um, that’s what I was doing. So I was pairing them together, and that was the way to shift it and to create a different, um, orientation around it.

Alison : And that’s interesting because when I was reading your book, I thought you were a spiritual person, because for me, it touched me on so many spiritual levels. So that’s that’s so interesting. And I think too, what I really loved about your book is a lot of times I would stop, like I looked up the Magritte paintings and I looked up the Statue of Melancholy and and I’ve seen them all, but I’ve never taken your spin on it. So for you, the connection of art and healing– do we call this healing or do we call this allowing? Like, what do we call this?

John: I would call it healing because art helps us to experience our feelings in a safe environment. Art opens up my imagination so I’m more open minded about my grief. Art helps me to legitimize my feelings, to validate them in many ways. And let me just go back a minute. I mean, I’m not saying that I’m not spiritual. I’m just saying that I’ve taken the woo out of the woo woo for me, you know, So I’m like there and I’m still an inquiry and I’m still learning, but I’m not where I would like to be with my spirituality. So, um, but I feel I feel glad that you actually looked up the paintings and the sculpture because, um, those are important factors. And we wanted photos of those arts, of those pieces of art in the book, but it didn’t work out that way. So, um, anyway, I appreciate that. So yeah, I would call it healing. I also call it transformation. You know, what’s what’s emotional resilience? I think emotional resilience is not about strength or grit. I think emotional resilience is about finding ways to take my adversity and convert it into thriving.

Alison : Um.

John: That’s sort of the message of the book, because it’s going to be there no matter what.

Jean : Yeah,

Alison : Right.

Jean : That that’s so true. And that’s so, uh, such a universal experience. We’re going to have loss and pain. No matter what. And, uh. And it is how you deal with it. And I love that you offer so many great tools. Um, how to alchemize our pain. And, um.

John: That’s a good word. I like that alchemize the pain. That’s a good one, Jeannie.

Jean :  It reminds me of magic. You know, like, like the magic. And you’re transforming it. And so, John, when you when you sit with someone, someone comes in and has had, a significant loss, let’s say a person has, has passed away. You know, do you, um, do you just allow them to talk about the past, which I said, I love your chapter on nostalgia. Mhm. That you allow that because in my experience it was told stop thinking about the past so much, And so can you talk about that for our listeners?

John: Yeah. Our culture, our culture is very different than other cultures. We seem to be the, you know, be strong and move on culture. Yeah. You know, smile and the smile. You know, smiling. The world smiles with you and cry and you cry alone type of thing.  um, and why that is, I’m not sure, but I guess we’re so individualistic and we always want to appear strong and stoic. And I think that gets in the way of us healing ourselves. So when somebody does come into my office and they’re they’re grieving, I do want them to educate me on how much they miss this person or how much the loss has affected them. That does involve going back and telling stories that involves nostalgia. It involves daydreaming about it. So I do the opposite of that. Yeah, I don’t say, let’s not talk about it. And even if they say I feel really uncomfortable about talking about this particular thing right now, I do give them space and I don’t force them, but I do try to revisit that. I also ask them what their aesthetics are. You know what has worked in the past that gives you joy. And most of the time, because of the loss, they have stopped accessing that aesthetic, which naturally, so, um, means that, you know, they’ve been in so much pain that they’re afraid to go to that, or at least they don’t want to feel guilty that maybe it’s too soon to do that. So I still say access the aesthetics and try to pair that together with the grieving thoughts. It works pretty magically.

Alison : If there’s a resistance. My father died when I was young, and I didn’t want to look at his picture for years. It just it just felt like a knife in me. So then would your recommendation have been to me to do it, or do I trust in my own sort of, you know, repelling idea a bit like what would what would you have suggested at that point?

John: Well, because I’m very process oriented as a therapist, I’m not results oriented. I’m not impatient. I don’t rush people into doing anything. I would certainly give you the time to think about it, and maybe we would approach it in some different way. But and maybe you would never look at the photo again. But there are other ways to remember. Um, I lost a loved one without the photo, but in my heart, I know that there could be such a transformation around that photo that instead of it being something to be afraid of, it could really be something that you hold in high regard, not just the photo, but how you feel about it. You know, I think that’s the important thing about remembering about your grief is that if you can have it appeal to your highest nature, if you can give it that kind of dignity and respect, um, it changes from something that you need to avoid to something that’s actually quite beautiful. There’s actually splendour in the suffering as well too. It’s kind of like when you hear a really sad song, unless you don’t like the song, but if you like the song, it makes you a little bit sad, but in some ways it also makes you happy and it makes you more connected to people. It makes you understand things a little bit better. Maybe it connects you more to the divine and the spiritual. So nothing wrong with feeling that I think that people are afraid of how they feel in remembering somebody. And of course, that makes a lot of sense.

Jean : Right? It reminds me of the preciousness of life. You know that with your father passing. Uh, John, I read you had a sibling that passed when you were younger. I did as well. My husband. Um, it. I think grief drives home this world is temporary. Everything’s precious this time, right now, talking with you, John. Sitting with Allison. This will never happen again. The way this is playing out, and there’s such beauty in that.

Alison : Yeah.

John: Yeah. And maybe, maybe that’s how we learn. Maybe that’s how we maturate. That’s maybe how we, maybe it’s a rite of passage that once these things happen to us and happens to everybody, yeah, we take life more seriously. We live it more to the hilt. We we appreciate more moments. I think it increases the sensitivity of the heart. It makes us feel closer to others. It makes us feel more compassionate to others. But it’s tricky because, as we just discussed about how society is, we can easily be compassionate with others, but we may not be compassionate with ourselves. Yeah. That’s why one of the exercises in there that I love is the one where I ask people to write themselves a sympathy card.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : Your practices are great.  That one in particular.

John: Yeah. So without offering solutions. Without offering answers. It’s not about answers. It’s just giving yourself, which maybe you’re having a hard time doing all of the respect, the kindness, the time, the compassion to talk about how much this loss has affected you and how much you miss this person or this thing that you’re grieving. It’s a really powerful exercise. People always balk at it at first, but once they write it and I have them read it out to me and we read it several times, you know, it starts to sink in that, you know what? I deserve as much compassion about this as anybody else.

Jean : Hmm.

Alison : We interviewed a woman named Doctor Jill Bolte Taylor. Are you familiar with her? And she she she was she was, um, a neuroscientist. And, um, she had a stroke on one side of her brain. And after coming through it and talking about all this, she said that her favorite emotion is grief because it’s the most, um, visceral, based in love and, um, reflects a vulnerability.

John: Oh, that is beautifully said. I hope you write that down for your next book.  Yeah, that was beautifully said.   Yes. I would agree with that. On a personal level, I find grief and sadness to be much more grounding than when I’m anxious about something and spinning about something that hasn’t happened yet. That has too many variables. But the grounding. I know I’ve been through this before. I know if I can get through this sad song, I can get through anything. So it grounds me. But I wanted to mention another thing too that’s important to remember about the book is that there are studies out there called Nano Aesthetics, and these studies are studies that look at how the brain is affected by immersing it in awe and in aesthetics, like things that you love, like music, let’s say, or paintings or anything like that. And what that does is that activates the prefrontal cortex in your brain, which is your higher self? It’s your executive brain. And so when that’s activated, you are more apt to be hopeful about the future. You’re more apt to problem solve. You’re more apt to raise your distress tolerance skills. You’re more apt to be compassionate with other people. So it behooves us to, especially when we are in our darkest moments, it behooves us to try to to again pair and to couple our feelings with things that have  offer us. Because it’s kind of like we’re starting to heal that way.

Alison : Hmm.  Can aesthetics also be considered um, can you also add into that group human connection, or is that a separate thing, do you think?

John: No, absolutely. In fact, I was talking to one of my patients this morning and they said that they’re best aesthetic because they’re they tend to be a lonely person. Uh, they said that their best aesthetic is doing an activity with good conversation, taking a hike, going for a walk, going on the beach and stuff. That is absolutely an aesthetic. The aesthetic is anything that evokes pleasurable feelings in you. Whatever that is, could be a hobby, it could be stamp collecting, whatever that is.

Jean : Right,. John, do you notice a difference in a male, a strong alpha personality versus a feminine more, um, whatever. The opposite of alpha….like like how men move through their grief versus women.

John: Well, it’s going to sound biased for me to say this, um, but, and I don’t like to speak in generalities, but statistics show, research shows. And I’ve seen this, too, that women pass through it a little bit better, a little more easily because it’s a little more accepted. And maybe that’s changing now. But I think that women generally, over the years, have had a little more permission to be vulnerable and to be sad or men assume that they need to be stoic. And I think there’s a little more shame, a little more stigma for them. So perhaps it’s much harder for them to go through it, right? Um, but I think that everybody feels the same kind of pain. I think it’s more about how much you express it and how comfortable you are expressing it. So. Good question Jeanie, i really do feel that men have a harder time with it, but things are changing.

Alison : Yeah,

Jean : I agree with you. I think men nowadays are way more communicative and coming into their heart, you know, and, um, so I just wanted to get your point of view on that and something that I remembered from a class I took a long time ago was, and you write about this in your book is about saying things to yourself like avoid…, don’t always use the absolute. Like, I’ll never get married again. I’ll never be happy again. Can you talk about.

John: Yes. I like that. I’m glad you brought that up. Yeah. I try to steer myself as well as my patients and clients away from absolutes. Like, never, always should and shouldn’t. Um, because they, if you really think about it, that’s kind of a distortion. It’s an irrational statement to say forever about anything. Um, because we just don’t know. So, um, people easily and myself included, go into what I call emotional reasoning. When we are grieving, we start to think that I’m always going to feel this way, or life is always going to feel this lonely and this dull, or I’m always going to feel this pain. And that is simply, we know that that’s not true. But when you’re in it, in the moment, I try to help people respect that that’s the place that they’re in in that moment. But I will point out when they use absolutes around that, because that could make us feel worse. So we just don’t know what’s going to happen. But it’s pretty visceral in the moment. As both of you, I’m sure, have experienced. So no absolutes. Yeah.

Alison : No absolutes. None. Never.  hahah

John: Well, Instead of saying, you know, I should have gone to the gym today instead of going straight home after work, I asked them to replace it with prefer. Like, i would have preferred to have gone to the gym, but I didn’t and I went home. So should and shouldn’t has a little bit of guilt and never and always is just too much finality.

Alison : Right. And the other thing that we were just talking about that I loved and I underlined it a million times, is like the difference between I’m a failure or I just recognized or realized I had a thought saying that I’m a failure. And that is like, that just makes you go….

John: Yes, well well said. Yeah. That creates separation from me having the awareness that I’m having a thought that I’m never going to be the same because my spouse died or my best friend died. You know, I’m saying, oh, John, there goes John again. I’m having that same thought again. So yeah, it’s a great way to to externalize and separate. So I’m glad you pointed that out.

Alison : Yeah. The reframing is wonderful. You do it a couple of times and like that’s why I like my books a wreck because I’m like, I have to remember this. And you also use the word dignity a lot. Can you tell us your personal idea or definition of what dignity is?

John: To me, dignity is, as I said before, holding something in high regard. Dignity is if I feel dignified or I’m giving myself dignity, I am being compassionate with myself. I’m feeling the totality of being human, which means all feelings, good and bad, negative and positive. Dignity is about respect. It’s about giving yourself, you know, the benefit of the doubt, cutting yourself some slack. And if we can do that with our grief, um, you know, we just live a fuller life. We won’t be so afraid of things in the future. Maybe we’ll take more risks. Imagine if you could live your life, um, moving forward from this day on, having the same respect, the same confidence, the same faith in some of the sorrowful as you do with happier times in your life. You know?

Alison : What do you mean by that?

John: Well, I might take more risks. I might not be so afraid to make mistakes. I might not be so afraid of my feelings. You know, we have a lot of confidence in being happy. It makes us feel good. So, yeah, I’d love to be happy, but we we have an aversion to feeling sad. But what if you had faith in the fact that feeling sad isn’t that bad? It’s okay. Maybe I’m giving myself dignity. Maybe I’m being more spiritual when I do that. So, you know, again, giving myself that respect, I think, um, and and connecting it with my aesthetic signifies, glorifies, exalts. You know, if I’m going to feel it, I’m going to make it something great.

Alison : Mm, i love that.

Jean : You’re so embracing of all the human feelings and most conditions. Yeah. It’s your book is really a love letter to yourself.

Alison : And I thought it was going to be sad. Yeah. I thought when I read it I’m like, oh man, do I want to read about…. You know, like, I feel kind of, and it’s honestly to anyone that is that that wants to get it… It’s not sad at all.

Jean : It’s very inspiring,

Alison : Very hopeful.

John: Thank you, thank you. I Jeanie I love that you just said that. It’s kind of like a love letter to oneself and you know you, both of you are probably just like me, and most people are, but I have a hard time sometimes giving myself that kind of love, affection, respect. And I haven’t always been this kind to myself around my feelings. So if it’s a love letter to me, then I hope that the book, when people read it, that they can learn to be kind to themselves about that because there’s so many benefits to that.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : It’s great that you said that.

Jean : Well, I you know, when I, I feel really good reading your book and it brought some tears up to some things that I revisited.

John: Would you feel comfortable saying.

Jean : Yes, I will.  I and you can talk about I don’t know where in your book, but I remember looking back, I think it was in the nostalgia part and feeling… Wow, i wish I didn’t take Alex for granted in him being able to fix everything in our house. I’m going to get emotional. Yeah, because he was so great at taking care of the house. I mean, he he had his career as a game show host, but he also was amazing at fixing things around the house. And I got really spoiled. And now I live on my own and I things go wrong and I’m like, oh my God. Allison, do you know a plumber?  And and I see in the past how I would beat myself up like, oh, why did you take him for granted? And then, you know, your book kind of softened that for me.

John: So thank you for telling me that. And I appreciate you being vulnerable on the podcast. Um, yeah. That’s really, that’s a nice process that you’re going through. I think it’s going to continue to evolve, but that does sound like what people say to me when they have some regrets or some, um, little mental adversity about the past that some of those grievances with ourselves can turn into gratitude later on. Can be transformed into something different, something that I can appreciate much more. So I hope that continues to grow for you that way. Thank you for sharing that.

Jean : Yeah.  Thank you. And John, while we’re talking about that, can you talk about the myth of closure, which was another great chapter?

John: Yeah. I mean, it’s such a funny thing. Closure has so many meanings to it. Um, people talk about closure in their own way, and I think that closure is not the right word. I think maybe people call closure when they start to feel better about something that they’ve been sad about for a long time, but I personally don’t think that there’s ever closure. I think that we always carry the wound with us. We always have the melancholy with us, and that we need that to learn how to live better. We need that to be able to treat others better. We need, as you both mentioned before, we need that to help us to appreciate life a little bit more. And um, so again, it’s not it’s not a word that I use. I never mentioned the word closure, but everybody else does. And everybody looks at closure as a destination. And I really don’t think that after a loss you’re going to reach something. I think you’re always going to be evolving and changing around it.

Alison : I really like that. Um, because you don’t think of closure for happiness?

John: No,

Alison : I need closure. I need closure in this joy. I really got to get through. And I thought to myself, you’ve totally in the book, uh, made me rethink the judgment that I put on some emotions.

John: Yeah, right. You can close a deal. You can sign on the dotted line and buy a house. But, you know, we are human beings. Um, we work a little bit differently, and we all process oriented. It takes time. We have to traverse. So it’s never about, you know, it’s time to move on. It’s about moving through. What’s the quality of my moving through? Um, I’m going to move through it better if I can dignify my pain. That’s why I always tell people, you know, one of the best things you can do for yourself, the highest form of self-care is to find ways to give yourself goosebumps, to find ways to give yourself uplifting chills as often as possible. And that goes through your aesthetics. Or it could also be through a memory, Jean,  that you were talking about. It can be looking at good times,  i’m sorry, I mean thinking about good times and looking at fun photos. All of that stuff is important. So the chills, as I mentioned before with the nano aesthetics are very important for your well-being. It’s like food for your brain.

Alison : And for you it’s music, classical music?

John: That’s one of them. I have many aesthetics, you know, I like helping people. I like good conversation, like we’re having right now. Time stops for me, and I’m just, you know, um, sharing this wonderful moment with the three of you, with the two of you. Um, so I have many. But music, for some reason, ever since I was a little kid, has always affected me that way. Not all music, certain music. I don’t work with certain genres, but, um, for most of them, I can find something beautiful in that.

Alison : Yeah, I, I I’m a big classical music music listener. I don’t know much about it, but I have it in my car or in my home all the time. And so when I played your, um, Beethoven fifth Concerto, I think it is right?

John: Yes.

Alison : Wow. I’ve heard that so many times. And it really does bring me, um, and I didn’t know even that’s what it was… But I love that. And I’ve heard it so, so many times. So that’s a great, a great thing in the book to keep having us learn.

John: Right, exactly… and remember, your aesthetic might be different than somebody else’s. So it’s it’s always being at cause, not at effect. I’m always taking the action to do that. I don’t believe that happiness or even being able to find beauty in my grief, it doesn’t knock on the door. I have to create it each day because for the most part, grief if it comes out and manifests as depression, it’s always telling you, stay in bed. Don’t talk to anybody. Don’t bother with it. What’s the point? You’re never going to get better. And those are real thoughts and real feelings. And we can’t just snap our fingers and make that go away. So I try to, you know, introduce being at cause and doing things like that. So if that piece works for you I would continue doing it and see what happens.

Alison : Yeah.  And I, I like when you talk about inch by inch, you did it with the person with OCD. And I thought, well, there’s a perfect thing-  if I don’t have to go and run a marathon. I can walk around my block.

John: Yes.

Alison : You know, “Inch by inch” do you know?

John:  What’s the old saying? “Inch by inch is a cinch, and mile by mile is a trial.” Something like.

Jean :  that’s a great one.

Alison : That’s great. Yeah. That’s excellent.

Jean : Yeah. And I think you also say John, i’m totally not going to say it as you wrote it, but but that conscious creation is what is really so, so fabulous about being human. You know that we can feel a little low, i feel like I don’t want to go to that meeting today, and then you can,  you have your bag of tools to– i’m going to walk in nature. I’ll listen to music. You know, you’re consciously raising your vibration.

John: That’s right. And continuing to…. Yes, raising your vibration and also cutting yourself some slack and remembering that I’m feeling sad now, but nothing’s wrong. You know?  Everything is fine. This is so part of life that I have to go through. And the more respect I give it, the better I’m going to feel. So the more I dignify it in the process, the more I reduce it. But I like that. Raising your vibration. Opening up your awareness. Um, and again, I think that accessing the aesthetic, especially in your darkest moments, opens up this portal of inspiration that starts to create a conversion, starts to create a transformation in that.

Alison : At the end of the chapters, you have these pages that allow us to really take a deep dive into ourselves. What are some of your favorites? Like, what do you do… You personally?

John: I like the first one, which is if people are really in a dark place, I will say the next time, tomorrow, tonight, whenever, the next time you hear a song that you love, whether it’s the words or the chords or whatever, I want you to write down five adjectives as to why you like that song, what it’s about, what does it it conjure up from the past? The same thing with a sunset or a painting or something that you’ve been doing. An activity that you love. In other words, document why you’re feeling either inspired or slightly happier. Or maybe it’s even making you a little sadder, but anything that stimulates emotion to log it in. So I think in that first chapter I have,  do that with a movie, a passage in a book, a song and a place in nature. So those four.  If people are thinking about that during the week, it’s not a magic pill. It’s not going to like make you feel better instantly. But you’re starting to introduce a different way of thinking, a different way of relating to the world and finding those beautiful things there because they are there. But we have to do we have to be deliberate and create intention to do that.

Alison : It’s the documenting that I think is so crucial and something so interesting  like, I think that’s great. Were you going to say something?

Jean : No, it’s just as you’re talking… It just reminds me how important it is to to choose what we focus on.

Alison : Mhm.

Jean : And at the same time allow, allow that that sadness and the, you know, so it’s, you know, you don’t want a spiritual bypass your, your feelings like oh I feel sad, i’m not going to I’m going to resist it, and you know, get myself so busy that I’m not dealing with my feelings.

John: Right. No. Right. That would be unhealthy distraction. That would be, um, pushing it or sweeping it under the carpet. Right. We’re not talking about that.

Jean : Exactly.

John: Exactly. So good point to that.

Jean : Substances and, you know alcohol.

John: That’s right. You know how a lot of people say, I might say to somebody, wow, You’ve really stood up to this.  You’ve been, um, tough, you’ve been strong, whatever, i might say that to somebody. And a lot of people say, well, I had no choice. And I think, you know, you do have a choice. Some people don’t do what the three of us are talking about. Some people do turn to drugs and alcohol. Some people give up. Some people detach from their routines and their responsibilities and and stop doing, you know, the things that we’re talking about looking for beauty, looking for, um, um, support from others and reaching out. So we do have a choice and not everybody does that. And I, I hope that there aren’t too many that don’t. But, um, you know, I do my best to try to reach out to those people as much as I can, because not everybody starts out in therapy with a lot of hopefulness. Sometimes they say, well, somebody told me that I should do therapy, or I’m feeling so awful that I couldn’t feel any worse. So let’s talk. So I get all kinds of stuff, but most of the time, um, people start to, you know, again, transfer, um, those feelings to a different place. And usually it’s a better place.

Alison : Your friends must love you…honestly…

John: Oh, i hope so.

Alison : Beaucause like, you’re just such a, you’re very, um…. I would love to hang out with you because there are some times, like, we’re with our friends, and what’s great about our friends is that sometimes we’ll, like, just allow, just allow and talk through. And you must be the same way, like with your pals. Just be like, how are you doing? And not try to skirt around it, which I think is just such what we so need right now.

John: Well said. Yeah, I’m as curious with them as I try to be with myself, you know? What is it about? Why does that song make me feel wistful? What is it about wistful or sad or happy or nostalgic? And then when I really look into that much, much more closely, I learned more about myself. I remember things that maybe I forgot or that I was afraid to remember. So what I always tell people is, if you’re afraid of a photo or you’re afraid of something, that to me indicates that you really need to talk about it and in a safe place. And it may not be today, it may be in the future, but it would be a good thing to do that. You know, I have old videotape of my mom that, um, for years I have kept as a VHS, and I finally transferred it into a file, which I can watch on my computer because you can’t even transfer it on a DVD now because computers don’t have it. So times have changed, and it’s been hard for me to to not watch it over the years. Um, but in other ways, I felt like I didn’t want to because that was a way for me to feel safe. So I did watch it and it was a little bit sad in the beginning, but I don’t feel that same kind of initial fear when I watch it now.

Jean : In your book, you attribute to her that she was the kindest person you knew.

John: She was.

Jean : Lovely.

John: She was. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, she and my father passed 21 years ago, and it’s been a really long time. But there are some days when it feels like it was six months ago.

Jean : Yes.

John: You know, especially when I wake up in the morning and I’ve had a couple of dreams and I feel a little bit anxious. And sometimes in the morning my defenses are down. Um, but yeah, I think the good qualities emotionally that I got from from my parents came from my mom. And I think the good qualities of, of finding my aesthetics came from my father because he, you know, we traveled the world, we lived in Europe. He took us to ruins and museums and was always playing us music and forced us to learn these things. So I got a good balance from both of them.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : You did.

Alison : I think that’s great. And I think that what you just said about, um, feeling like sometimes the morning, you feel like you’re a little bit anxious. I think that’s so interesting because I think a lot of people have that sort of sense of like, maybe you’re being open or vulnerable and, you know, and I think it’s wonderful that you, I think that’s wonderful that you share so much and that you are open to letting people peek in a little bit. I really respect that.

John: Thank you. Yeah. So in the morning the stress hormone cortisol is much higher. Again like I said our defenses are down. So, um, I don’t have great mornings. Um, once I get up again, you know, be at cause not the effect. Once I get up, I shower. I look at my notes for the day. Or if I’m writing something new, I read over what I wrote last night. Then it gets… I get some things going and I’m much more grounded. And I kind of, like, balance myself out. But, um. Yeah, that’s when I remember the sad most in the morning. Um, and then I’m not, um, comfortable with it yet. Uh, until I start to move around and I start to remember all the good things in my life. So, um, I try to be as transparent as possible. And Socrates said, you know, “wisdom begins in wonder.” So I’m wondering I’m curious about my grief all the time, as opposed to wanting to run from it.

Alison : Um, curiosity that comes up in a lot of our interviews as being such an important, you know, such an important part of life.

John: It is. I don’t remember who said it, but one of those famous gurus, maybe it was the Dalai Lama, or maybe it was Deepak Chopra, but one of those big cheeses, when they asked when they asked them what their religion was, one of them said, “inquiry, compassion and tolerance.” And what stuck in my head was the inquiry. You know, always wondering, always trying to not necessarily being comfortable with answers because it’s not about answers, it’s about always evolving and growing. So that stuck with me. Now, now I’m going to look it up and see who said that.

Alison :  yes…that’s a great quote.

Jean : I do the same thing, John…and you have so many great quotes in here.

Alison : Yes. Thank you so much for writing this.

Jean : Yeah. We we are so grateful that you are on our team of sharing the good. And this book is certainly very, very good.

John: Thank you. I appreciate you two reading it. By the way, what city are you both in?

Jean : Studio city.

John: Oh, you’re in Los Angeles.

John: All right, well, I’ll take you both up on one day. We have coffee and we continue the conversation.

Alison : Oh, we would love that.

Jean : But before we let you go, we have two questions.

Alison : What do you think insidewink means?

John: I remember, Yeah. Um, so I thought about it for a while, and I think that for a lot of people, it means a lot of different things. And for me, it means different things to-  to me, an inside wink can be a gesture of affection. It can be, um, you know, signifying or signaling warmth to somebody. Um, it could be a shared secret, um, shared knowledge that we all have that we’re having a really nice conversation amongst ourselves. So I see it as something positive.

Alison : Oh, good. Great. That’s perfect. We love that…and –

Jean : Do you prefer cake, pie or ice cream?

John: I will answer that, but I’m curious to know why you ask. But I will say pie. Pie is my favorite.

Jean : Another pie!

Alison : I know person pie. The numbers are going up, John.

John: So tell us why. Tell me why. Why that question? Well, why both questions?

Jean : We love dessert. And we just…

Alison : Period.

Jean : End up scene, end of conversation. We love dessert. And we just thought it would be a really fun way to end the conversation, because it’s so probably not what people ask you.

Alison : And it’s so funny to see people change. Like, we’ll talk about people. We’ll be talking very seriously, and then we’ll say that and they’re like, well.. If I have to choose, and like almost a childlike thing comes out, which is so…

John: So when you said, oh, that’s another pie… Is that the most popular answer or is it cake?

Alison : It’s getting there.

Jean : I think pie is really popular.

Alison : Yeah, I think pie is popular. And pie with ice cream. That’s a big one.  Some people like, want the turducken of all three. Do you know – they really… But it’s so funny, people are so sweet about people talk about their grandmothers. People talk about a pastry shop, you know….

Jean :  a spouce that makes their favorite cake…

Alison : It’s a sweet thing that people just seem to enjoy. And so we just like to see that side of people.

John: That’s good, I like that. That’s a great way to end the podcast.

Jean : Yeah, yeah.

Alison : Well thank you so, so so much. You were just wonderful.

Jean : You are – what a blessing you are.

John: Thank you , Thank you so much for having me, and again, thanks for reading the book. And thank you for, you know, forming your questions so detailed about the book and the exercises and stuff. Made me feel good that it touched you. So it touches me as well I appreciate that.

Jean : Thank you. John.

Alison : Have a beautiful day.

John: You too.

Jean : That was great.

John: He’s excellent, isn’t he?

Jean : Yeah. He was really fun.

Alison : And I felt like a real conversation. I liked when he would say, well, why do you ask this? Or what did you think about that? Or would you be willing to share.

Jean : When? When he asked me. About what? Um. You know what? Something. When I was talking about, um, thinking back on my relationship with Alex and feeling like I took him for granted in certain ways, I was… I got that was like, yeah, uh, that really touched me. And, um, again, his book is so beautiful, and I think he also, well, I know he gives beautiful practices to take take the, uh, the readings deeper into your own life.

Alison : Right. And, and I think everyone I’m going to have, I’m going to keep this book, like, for the kids, because I think it’s just a great book to have…” The magic and the tragic” and I, I, um, I really respect that he wrote this, and I think it’s really interesting he wrote it over Covid. What an interesting time we all lived through. When you think back of Covid, right? Yeah. Like we read collectively as humanities really something and some, some interesting things came out of it for people. And I just really respect him. And I really enjoyed him.

Jean : Yes, me too.

Alison : So we hope. We hope, we hope you got something out of the podcast. And if you would like to- “The Magic In The Tragic” by John Tsilimparis, MFT. is really just, um.

Jean : Wonderful.

Alison : Yeah, yeah, very very good.

Jean : Well written. And, uh, I don’t know, we could go on and on, but we’ll we’ll end it there.

Alison : I’m going to go and get Macaroni and cheese.

Jean : Okay.

Alison : Macaroni and cheese is calling my name. That’s my magic. hahah

Alison : Bye.

Jean : Bye.

Alison: Yeah,

Jean : Checking…

Alison: There it is. There we are. Hi.

Jean : Hi, there.

Alison: How are you doing?

Jean : I’m good. It’s really warm out today.

Alison: Yeah, it’s very, very, very hot.

Jean : Yeah,

Alison: Very, very warm.

Jean : I’m glad you’re in shorts. And I’m in my usual pants.

Alison: Do you wear shorts?

Jean : sometimes I do.

Alison: yeah?

Jean : Sometimes, yeah.. so…

Alison: alright, well we’re in your closet … Show me the shorts.  Um Today we’re going to have a great conversation with the, um, two volunteers from the LA Animal Rescue.

Jean : Yeah. And, you know, when I was doing the background research for our interview, it’s so interesting to me, This is just not about cats and dogs. This is all sorts of animals. Like you could sponsor an iguana or adopt a kangaroo, right? If they had a kangaroo, I didn’t see any though..

Alison: I know they had a pig, a big pig once and  they’re just a very, very kind. So today we’re speaking to Cindy Drummond, who’s also a very excellent actor.

Jean : And that’s how you know, Cindy and how we got this interview. Right?

Alison: Right. And and then another volunteer that’s Cindy’s friend Sarah Dubay, now the head of animal, the LA Animal Rescue I think is too shy to do it, but I kind of.

Jean : does the person have a name?

Alison: Yes, Sue.

Jean : Okay, Sue.

Alison: And I just have to say that, um, I kind of love that they are totally just doing it for the love of animals.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison: They just want to take care of animals.

Alison: So I’m looking forward to this because I’m like one of those people that if there’s, like, a bird on the side of the road, I stop.

Jean : Yeah. I’m. I’m the same. Uh, and I think it’s so great that they are –they don’t turn away any animal.

Alison: Right. But they’re not a wildlife rescue.

Jean : Exactly.

Alison: Which I think is an interesting thing. I think Cindy’s going to talk about that. Like, there are lots of really good wildlife rescues, but, you know,

Jean : This is not them.

Alison: No…Right and I remember one time Brady and I, my son, followed a dog for hours trying to catch it, and we finally got it and brought it to a rescue. And I was like, wow. Like, we were dedicated. And you feel good to help an animal? Yeah. You know?

Jean : It is. They are our fellow companions and gosh, we are so grateful to be with them.

Alison: Yes. So blessed. And. So here’s, um, Cindy

Jean : and Sarah.

Alison: Can you tell us a little bit about, about the LA Animal Rescue? And I guess it started in 2010.

Cindy: Yeah, it’s been around for, yeah, 15 years. And, um, so our director, Sue and her husband Jason run it. And, you know, it’s funny, i was asking her, you know, how did you…. Why did you start doing it? And, um, she volunteered with a lot of other rescues, and then she did transport for rescues. And she did all sorts of things. Spay neuter events and everything and then I think it was really one of those things where she was kind of like, well, I can do this, you know. And, um, and she’s very efficient and very direct and very I mean, she just she is kind of a animal whisperer and so is her husband. Like, I mean, I have seen her, i mean, we have got a million stories…. But I remember there was this one dog that we had, uh, Diego and he was at an animal hospital, and they called her and they were like, we can’t get near him because he was just grrrrrr… And so one of the other volunteers was with her because she said, you want to come with me? I got to pick up this dog. And she said, yeah. So she she goes, can I film it? And she was like, yeah and so she, he’s in the the cage at the animal hospital. Nobody would get near him. They were all scared of him. So there’s film of him just like baring his teeth. His name is Diego. And Sue walks up and she goes, what is this nonsense? And he’s grrrrr and then she goes, alright, I don’t have time for this. And she opens the the cage and everybody’s like oohhhhhh , and she just goes, come on, you’re with me. And then he goes,oh okay.

Alison: Wow.

Cindy: And then he was just like, you know, because, so she just has that thing where she’s like, this is what we’re doing, you know?

Sarah: So even that even at adoption events, it’s so funny because the animals that are staying with her, obviously some of them are with our community of fosters, but the ones that are staying directly with her anywhere she goes, they’re just kind of where is she? Where is she? And following her around. And they’re so happy to leave at the end of the event because they get to go back to Sue’s house. I mean, she really is just incredible in that way.

Cindy: Yeah. And her husband too, you know, they have we have all sorts of animals up at the ranch. And, you know, we have ducks and ducks imprint on people. So all the ducks imprint on her husband. So especially baby ones. So that’s adorable too. Like, we’ll I’ll be talking to her on the phone. You’ll hear quack, quack, quack. And then I’ll be like, what’s going on? And she’ll be like, oh, Jason’s taking the babies in for for their bath, you know, and they. And when you go up to the ranch, like, you’ll, you know, can I use the bathroom? And she’ll go, don’t go in there. There’s a bulldog in there, you know, don’t go in there. There’s ducks in there. Don’t go in there. You know, and then you’re like, is there one that’s for humans? She’s like, no, don’t look around. Just do your thing and come out. And then you’re like, oh, hello, there’s a chicken in here, you know?

Alison: it’s amazing.

Jean : Alison and I were saying, you know, before we jumped on this call together that, um, you’re just not dogs and cats. You are animals.

Cindy: Mhm. Yeah.

Jean : What are some like other animals that that have like… Oh my gosh…. We’re now uh, we’ve got to find a home for…

Sarah: Pigeons.

Cindy: Yep. Oh there’s been some…. She’s kind of becoming the crazy bird lady like we have now. And we’ve expanded like there’s uh, so we she, she has, like, there’s like a duck and chicken house, and it’s, you know, it’s up in Frazier Park, so it snows and everything. So she has videos in the morning. She when it’s snowing, like she opens the door and they literally come out, you know, out to come out in the snow. And sometimes they turn back around like screw it, it’s snowing. And she’s like, no, we’re going out and you know, and there’s a pond. And then we have, we do have some rabbits. Yeah. Um, we have one horse, we had two, we had Lincoln and he passed away, but he was like 40. And then, uh, because we got him when they’re older. So now we have Truman. Yeah. Goats. We have a whole bunch of pigs because we rescued a mom and a dad and a sister wife. And, um, one of the mom was, well, she was pregnant. And so the the shelter called Sue because she knew she liked pigs. And and then they had the babies. And so we still have a lot of them. So we had them from when they were this big. So. Yeah. So cattle

Sarah: The pigs, actually the baby pigs came to a few of our adoption events, which was kind of wild.

Cindy: Yes. Christmas time.

Sarah: Yes. Yeah. Got a lot of action.

Alison: Do people adopt them?

Cindy: Every once in a while… They I mean they she goes through a real like I mean we always do home checks and, um, you know, real thorough on the homes. But yeah, there’s certain people that will adopt pigs or goats or, you know, the horses aren’t, …. You know, some of the animals are just retired, you know, and so that’s why they’re up there. But, um, every once in a while, you know, we had a young goat and a family wanted a goat, you know, and she did the due diligence, and she was like, yeah, okay. So yeah.

Sarah: Yeah, it’s kind of funny because when she rolls up on Sundays to start unloading at the Larchmont event that we’ll do, she’ll have various creatures that are in there. And there were.. I remember when the pigeons were in there and she kind of was like, oh, those are those are pigeons. Just, you know, they’re going to stay in there. And I was like, okay. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Normal.

Cindy: Yeah. She’s very she just she’s just tender hearted towards any need. I remember one time at a we this was before you volunteered. We were at doing a one at a different place and this guy came into the adoption event and he had a, uh, cut off, um, water bottle, like a geyser, big water bottle with one goldfish in it. And he walked in and I thought to myself, oh, you idiot… What, what? And he goes, is Sue here? And I was like, uh, yeah. And then she goes over here and he, you know, takes the. So then we were kind of like, Sue, really? And she goes, goldfish need homes. They couldn’t take care of her, you know. And we were like…. And she was like, yes, I think. And so then when she drove home, we were laughing. She was in the van with all these different animals. And she put the goldfish in between her, you know, legs. And, you know, every time she leaves, it’s like, cue the Benny Hill music, you know, it’s like, there she goes. Yeah, goldfish needs home, too. We’re like, all right..

Alison: Do You get animals just from people abandoning them. Or does someone call you and say there’s a dog running around on the street? Or, like, where do you get the Animals.

Sarah: Yeah, it could be anything from someone calling to say there’s a dog running on the street. We also partner with another rescue, Hope for Paws, which will a lot of times be the ones who are going and getting that animal from wherever, you know, it’s been sighted. And so they’re wonderful. And then sometimes it’s also Hope for Paws to shelter homes sometimes. Right?

Cindy: Uh, mostly they mostly do like the, the rescues from, you know, if some like, we just got a family of mom and dad, um, and they had been going into town and getting food and then going away and then, fine, and they come back and nobody could catch them. And then it turned out that they were taking food back to a cave where they had eight puppies. You know. So, yeah. And,  so Hope for Paws goes out and it’s you should look, they’re amazing, they go up and set up a perimeter and everything, and they rescue. And then we find them homes. Other rescues too. But mostly I don’t think they do a lot of shelter pulls every once in a while, but so will ours are, you know, it’s things we get a lot from Hope for paws. And then sometimes, I mean, she gets so many emails all day long. People, for whatever reason, have to surrender their animal. Some of them are shelter pulls. Shelters will call us. I just picked up a duck on Sunday. A shelter called us and said, It’s Father’s Day and we have what we think is a father duck with no family. And he’s lonely. And Sue was like, Will you go get him? I’m like, sure.

Cindy: So went and got him. And so yeah, it’s various, you know, a lot of times it’s uh, sometimes it’ll be, uh, a senior that, uh, can’t take care of the animal anymore, went into assisted living and the family can’t. So a million different stories.

Alison: And so what happens then? So you get some animal, and then what do you have, like a group of people. Like what happens. How what’s the system?

Cindy: Well, first they go right to the vet. Yeah. Make sure that they’re okay. They get seen by a vet, and then we. We’re foster. So we’re all volunteer based, and we’re foster based. And so then she’ll, if they don’t go to the ranch with her, um, she’ll see which foster can, you know, take them on and, um, and it’s good because then the foster gets to know the animals. So when people are interested in adopting, they can tell them, hey, he’s good with cats. Hey. He’s afraid of crows. He likes this. He likes that, you know? And so that’s basically. But, you know, some of them need a lot of medical. When they first come in, they we get we get a lot of medical cases too.

Sarah: Yeah for sure.

Jean : Does the LA animal rescue pay for the for the medical?

Cindy: Yeah. So it’s like we’re always in the hole because it’s all based on donations and adoption fees and everything. So yeah we so we have a particular vet that we use, um, uh, in the Valley. That’s fantastic. Sherman Oaks and that Doctor Lockhart. Shout out to Doctor lockhart

Sarah: He’s Amazing.

Cindy: And, uh, he’s another one that, like, you can bring him one that you’re like, oh, he’s kind of nippy. And he’ll be like, come on, I got other patients. And then you’re like, oh. And, um, and then sometimes we have certain vets that are if we have ones that need, you know, expertise or specialty shows I ones heart ones. Yeah. You know, but yeah, we pay for all of it. And um, but her big thing that she wanted me to mention too is that, um, now we’ve been doing these spay neuter events, so spay neuter is, like, really the big source. Like, if you can spay and neuter the pets, that’s the big source of the over pet population and pets getting abandoned. So we whenever we can raise the money, we are partnered with, um, it’s the spay mobile and the mobile vet that comes and spays all these animals. And so when we it’s like, you know, I don’t know, 2500 – 2700 so when we can raise the money for that, then people come and sign up and come and get their animal spayed or neutered for free. Yeah. And it’s wonderful because it’s people that can’t do it on their own or it’s, you know, and um, yeah. So that’s that’s a big thing we do too.

Jean : That’s so important to get your pet spayed or neutered. And yeah, I, I remember Bob Barker, who hosted the, um, Price is Right,  at the end of his signing off, he’d say, okay, I’m Bob Barker, and don’t forget to get your pet.

Cindy: Spayed or neutered.  Yeah, it’s true.

Jean : It’s actually,  I didn’t even know what that meant when I was little. And I heard him say that. And, uh, and then as I got older, I was like, oh, look at him be such an advocate for animals. And I didn’t know that about Bob Barker. But, um, yeah. So I see on your website also that being spayed and neutered, that’s really important.

Cindy: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, if people don’t understand, it’s not even just that, um, that for, for, you know, over pet population and making sure animals don’t get abandoned and stuff. It’s medically good for them. You know, it prevents testicular cancer in male dogs. In female dogs it prevents mammary glands, you know, um, breast cancer. And so it’s it’s actually good for the animal to get spayed or neutered. And so that’s another reason we tell people, you know, sometimes if they have a dog that’s not young, they’re like, well, it never goes outside. He doesn’t need it. Well I mean, cut to six months later, they’re like, we have puppies. Yeah. Um, but you know, we tell them, hey, it’s actually, you know, good for them. Yeah.

Sarah: And all of the dogs to the rescue. Come. Chipped, vaxed and fixed. So they all come fixed.

Cindy:  Yeah. We don’t release them unless they’ve got all that. Yeah.

Alison: And do you… So you’re fostering a dog or a cat or something? How do you not fall in love with all of them?

Sarah: That’s always tough. Um, but I think the thing about fostering that’s so rewarding is that you help an animal socialize and get ready for their forever home. And it really is such a service to be able to do that over and over again versus I’m just going to keep this animal and that’s it. You know, it’s tough for sure. Um, I don’t know if either of you are familiar with a creator on TikTok called Isabel Klee  and the Story of Tiki. That has just been very viral. So she’s a foster based out of, um, New York, and she’s got a TikTok that thousands and hundreds of thousands of views and she’s fostered probably at this point around 40 dogs. And for some reason, the most recent dog that she fostered, Tiki, who came from a criminal case, just had absolutely no will to really live by the time she got him. And, um, she, you know, was talking his entire journey, talking about day by day, and the entire world kind of fell in love with him and fell in love with the story. And it’s not the first time that people have fallen in love with a dog that she was fostering and would comment things like, you have to keep him. And that’s it’s really not the point of fostering, right? It’s it’s really being able to socialize an animal, get an animal ready for their forever home and give them so much love so that they’re ready for that. And so by keeping herself open to continue to foster, she allows herself to do that over and over and over again versus I’m going to keep this dog. And now I’m kind of done fostering for a little bit. So it’s challenging, but it’s worth it. It’s one of those things that really pays off.

Cindy: Yeah. And it’s one of those things. I mean, because I know with our volunteers, almost every single foster I think has it’s called foster fail when you keep them. And but they still, you know, but then they do try to then keep fostering. But but even Sue will foster fail like, even Sue you know, she has an affinity for a certain for certain bulldogs. We’ll just say…We don’t have to keep it a secret.

Cindy: She and her husband love a bulldog, and and and the more messed up that dog is, the better. You know, if they’re missing an eye and they’ve had ten litters and they limp and they make a sound, a lot of them sound like a walrus, you know? And we know, like, someone reached out to me recently with a video of Dolly.

Sarah: Yeah, love Dolly,

Cindy: and this Really overweight bulldog that somebody had over bred and over bred and she, and she was like, you know.

Sarah: She sounds like a raptor, actually,  from Jurassic Park.

Cindy: Yeah. And her full name is Dolley Madison. Just to be clear. Yeah. Which I love.

Sarah: Yes. Yeah. When she makes the sound at adoption events, I mean, it draws a crowd. Everybody’s like, what is going on? Yeah. And have they escaped? You know, but it was one of those things where she gets so many requests and we get requests. People contact us. And someone, you know said to me, oh, somebody found this dog, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, well, I’ll ask her. You know, we’re we’re kind of at capacity right now. And I was like, do you have a picture, a video. And she sends me a video. This fat bulldog wagging her butt, making that sound, and I was like, she’s gonna… Hold on one second, you know? And then I sent it to her, and she was like, um, all right, can they meet me at the Sherman Oaks tomorrow? You know. Yeah. I mean, but we she always says make every attempt to find the owner. You know, we always have the people make every attempt to find the owner, and it’s their chip and all that stuff. But, Dolly, so Dolly’s been coming to adoption events. But we noticed recently I was like, oh, I haven’t seen Dolly, you know? And she was like, well, you know, we’re deciding, you know, we’re like a fat bulldog that’s got some problems. She’s in.

Cindy: She’s in the club.

Sarah: Yeah. Sue foster fails regularly, but she also I think part of, you know, we call the farm where she lives, like rehab or, you know, boot camp for the dogs, too, because she really does sort of they become part of the general population. So they kind of get in line. They become part of a pack. It socializes them in a different way, which is really helpful.

Cindy: Yeah. She has certain dogs up there that that are her like she had one for a long time. A big, huge, huge Cane Corso, named Martha. And, uh, she was Sue’s like, right hand, you know, ranch hand. Like they would she, they have like a little one of those things. She rides it around and she would be with her, and then she would teach the other dogs. And she recently lost her. And it was very hard, you know, but, um, yeah, they she’s got teachers that, you know, the dogs teach them, teach them and the, the, uh, Martha and Truman, the horse, actually had quite a loving relationship, you know, she would send me videos, Martha would go out into Truman’s corral, and Truman would get all excited and come over and nip at her. And Martha would be like, all right, you know.

Sarah: I love unlikely animal friendships. Yes. Those are my favorite. Yeah.

Jean : I love that book. There’s a book like that.

Sarah: Yes. I had the calendar many years ago.

Jean : Uh, Allison, when when you stepped out for a moment, we were talking about how pets have such an impact on our lives.

Sarah: Yeah, yeah, truly, I was talking about how they’re our greatest teachers. Yeah, obviously, they teach us the the obvious things like patience. Right. Um, I had a bunny rabbit for 11.5 years that passed away at the beginning of last year, Mops and um, I say one of the things she taught me the most was how to think outside of myself. At the time when I got her, I was starting a new relationship, and I was sort of feeling like it was hard for me to integrate another person into my life. My life was all about me, and I was I felt a little selfish. And so I actually got her because I was trying to have an inconvenience in my life that I wouldn’t get upset at. And I, I know that I have if I had all the patients in the world for people like I do with animals, I would be Mother Teresa. I could never be mad at an animal. And so I got her to have some inconvenience and it really did help me. Wow. But then one of the things I was saying to Jean was also, animals teach us so much about, you know, how their temporary lives, the shortness of their lives, teach us to live in the moment and just how precious every moment is. I think that’s one of the biggest things that they teach us. They’re only here for such a short time, and we love them so much and they love so much. And in doing that, it sort of keeps us so present and reminds us that all we have is this moment. Nothing else is promised, and you have to make the most of it. Right?

Alison: And I think, you know, when you have a pet, they don’t care if you look good, if you don’t have a job, if your house is a mess, they just want to be next to you and love you. Yeah, that’s the thing. Like I like I think. Oh, and then you look at, I look at my dogs and they’re like, I don’t, I don’t care.

Sarah: Yeah, yeah. That unconditional love.

Alison: It’s truly amazing. So during Covid did you guys get like, what was that like? I feel like after Covid people were like, oh I really can’t take it. Like, what was that weird? All of that?

Cindy: Yeah. Well, at first we, uh, so we we couldn’t do adoption events or anything, but people, you know, were getting animals during Covid because then they were home and they wanted the companionship and all that stuff. So in the beginning, we had a lot of adoptions. You know, I mean, you can see where this is going, but a lot of adoptions and she did home checks and all that, all masked up and everything. And we were still pulling animals from shelters that needed help and everything. But then when Covid, uh, when people started being able to go out again, people went back to work. We got a lot of animals. I don’t think we got any of ours returned, but we got a lot of people saying, well, I don’t have time for them now. Yeah. And that was really sad. And the shelters too, the shelters. So we were trying to help the shelters and it was happening to us too. We were getting a lot of people saying, oh, and now I got to go back to work and I can’t, I can’t, I can’t take care of them anymore.

Alison: Yeah, what’s the difference between you guys and the shelter,  and the difference between you guys and, like, a wildlife place that you call?

Sarah: I mean, with us, there’s no potential of termination, right? Like, they can stay with us forever. It doesn’t matter. Versus a shelter who has to deal with overcrowding issues. And that’s just unfortunately, the nature of a lot of shelters. It’s not their fault. You know, they don’t have a choice. So I would say that’s probably the biggest difference. And then in a way we kind of rehabilitate them. So we’re a little like a wildlife center, right. We rehabilitate them, get them ready to be out in the world again.

Cindy: And yeah, yeah. She always says rescue, rehab, rehome. So like the other difference too is that shelters are run by the city. So they they have funds, you know, the city funds them. They have a budget, they have money. And, um, we’re like I said, we’re just all donation and adoption fee funded. We’re, you know, and, um, and then at the shelter, yeah, they because they’re overcrowded, they, they have to, you know, uh, euthanize and, uh, we never do that… with us, you know, until they find a home or until they, you know, uh, if for some of them just. Yeah, just, um, for whatever reason, can’t be adopted. So they’ll just be with us until they. Yeah. And, um, but, yeah, it’s rescue, rehab and rehome. so the difference to like some people say, um, with, uh, what a rescue, like if I’m, if I’m going to adopt a dog, like, what would be the benefit of going through a rescue as opposed to the shelter? And we’re always like, hey, we just want the dog to go to home. So if you find the dog you want, we love it if you rescue it from the shelter.  But they don’t know as much about them because they’re not there as long. And they, like Sarah was saying, like, our dogs are all in with fosters and so we know them. So we’re going to be able to tell you what their habits are, what they like, what they don’t like. You know, are they energetic? Are they not? You know, if somebody’s like, I like to hike or not, you know, it’s we’re going to be like, well, don’t pick the bull dog. Yeah. Not Dolley Madison, you know, and if somebody else is like, I don’t, I don’t, you know, like to go outside. We’re like, that one just wants to lay on the couch like, bulldogs are funny because people do say to us all the time, I need a yard. And we’re like, oh no, you don’t. You need a couch. And so, um, so that’s one of the differences too, is that I would say it’s that they’re funded by the city and that the other difference is what Sarah said, that we, you know, they are with us forever. You know.

Jean : And how do you fundraise? Do you…?

Cindy: We’re terrible at it.

Sarah: We’re not the best. I mean, we’ve got a little donation box set up at our events. And, you know, Sue’s very active on the LA Animal Rescue Instagram and, you know, putting out. She does a thing called $5 Fridays. It’s you know, that’s such a low stakes amount to think about like $5. Anyone has $5 to donate for the most part. And if everyone donated $5, my God, you know, we’d be. We wouldn’t need to get any more donations. But, um, you know, stuff through that. But we could be better at it.

Cindy: We could be better.  It’s so funny because we’re always trying to, you know, um, we used to, way before. I remember us having my my sister was a fundraiser, and so my sister was like, well, this is ridiculous. There are certain things you can do. And so she had a meeting and told us all, you know, and you can get grants and you can do this, and who’d like to do that? And we were all like, oh, I just, I just want to…. I was like, I just want to transport ducks and clean up poop. I don’t want to, you know…. And so we’re just yeah, we’re miserable at it. But we do have we, we have um, we do have a good following and we have certain people that donate all the time and, you know, so that’s great and everything. But yeah, we’re always like, what should we we used to do, uh, drag queen bingo. We did that a few times.

Alison: We love that. We’ve done that.

Cindy:  We used to do it and, uh, but we haven’t, because then you got to find the stuff to auction off, and, um, I, I don’t know, it just kind of fell away.

Sarah: We should to that again.

Cindy: Yeah, that would be fun. You tell her.

Sarah: I’ll tell her.

Jean : Okay, so if you’re if you don’t if you’re someone that that wants to help, uh, but doesn’t have extra funds, how else can someone help your organization?

Sarah: Yeah, uh, you can volunteer. Of course…

Jean : Would that be going up to the farm or would that be…

Sarah: You could volunteer at one of our events. So we do an event every Sunday at in Larchmont Village in the Wail wagger’s parking lot. We also have been going out to Mixed Fine Things, a store out in Agoura Hills one Saturday a month. Um, and then also, if you want to foster an animal, um, that’s always super helpful. And the only thing there is that if you’re fostering an animal, you would definitely need to be at least bringing them to the event so that they could meet potential, you know, new families for them. But yeah, those are a couple of ways. If they can’t donate their funds, their time is also super valuable.

Cindy: Yeah. And, um, share, you know, post and share. Share our information about the spayed & neuter. Yeah. Um, but yeah, that’s that’s basically it. Share our stuff. Volunteer.

Sarah: Yeah. I always say on Sundays when people are taking pictures of the dogs, especially if they’re younger. I’m always like, tag us. Yeah, I got the post in case someone sees that dog and is like, that’s a really cute dog. Well, now you know where you can reach out to.

Cindy: Yeah. And by the way, it’s a ranch. It’s not a farm. It’s funny, everybody always says farm.

Sarah: Oh Yeah, I call it a farm.

Cindy: And we all laughed. We laugh when people say farm because we’re like, yes, well, we’ve got to harvest the corn now and then…

Sarah: Yeah, because we’re not farming anything out there.

Cindy: Yeah. It’s a ranch. It’s a dude ranch. Yeah, but it’s just,  yeah, anyway, so.

Jean : I like  that actually heard Cindy with a little twang.

Cindy: It’s actually a ranch. Yeah, yeah, we have a horse area and a dog. You know, it’s like we have all these different, um, but yeah, it’s way, way up, but we don’t hold events there or have people go because the thing is, like, people then will dump their animals. Yeah. Um, like shelters. You know how they’ll just tie them up out front. So we’ve had a few fosters who, when the neighbor find neighbors, neighborhood finds out, then they’ll just start throwing dogs over the fence, you know? And, um, you know, we help them, but it’s like we can’t, you know, have an influx like that.

Alison: So you think that, uh, people…. Specific people in specific dogs are meant for each other? And have you ever seen a dog pick a person?

Sarah: Oh, yes.

Cindy: Yep.

Sarah: For sure. I’m trying to think of a specific example of a dog picking a person. But I do know. So I had an experience recently, um, late last year where, um, you know, I’ve had a dream of Casey, my dog, having a dog sibling, and obviously I fostered Billy before he belongs to her. Um, and Casey was mixed with Billy. He was sort of not super happy about it. But then a dog came across our rescue. A tiny little, um, Chihuahua. Um. And she was a Chihuahua, jack Russell, so they call them like Jack cheese. And she was just precious. Her name was Joni. And the second I saw her, I imprinted on her like the ducks imprint on Jason. I was like this, I need her. And it’s so funny because she had come to us through sort of a medical event of her owner. And, um, I met her at the, you know, once a month event in Agoura Hills, and she was going to be going home with one of our other fosters who was ready to take her and was sort of like, yeah, I’m going to have her for this week. I couldn’t get her out of my head. And I just kept thinking, gosh, I just want to I just want to see how Casey is. So this foster, a woman that volunteers with us, Irene, who’s lovely, um, she had sent me, you know, pictures and videos that whole week that she had her because she knew how much I was into Joni.

Sarah: And she said, I’m going to bring her on Sunday and you can take her on, you know, a trial and foster just to see how it works out. So that was going to be Irene wasn’t going to foster for a little bit. She was just going to take Joanie, and then she was going to kind of be done. So this is important to the story. So I take Joanie. Not only was KC not into her, but KC was actually kind of violent towards her, which is not great. And it was really challenging. I’m laughing about it now, but I definitely cried a lot about it. And during this time, I want to say maybe the same week that I told that I took Joanie, there was a dog that had been found, I think, by Hope for paws. Peanut was on the street with a unhoused encampment, and he had been hit in the face with a broken bottle. Had a whole eye situation, and Sue needed someone who could take kind of a medical case and foster him. Irene is one of those people. She’s fantastic. And so had she had Joanie, she wouldn’t have had the space to do that. So she takes Peanut. Well, long story short, Peanut is now her dog. She is foster failed Peanut. They’re perfect for each other. Her dog that she already had, don, who’s a fantastic schnauzer.

Sarah: He’s a cool customer. He likes him and and they’re great. But I was so kind of just, so sad that it didn’t work out with Joanie. And then Joanie is now adopted by a wonderful woman named Nicole. They’re perfectly suited for each other. They’re fantastic. But I was so sad about Joanie. And then I had this realization that if I wouldn’t have been so much like, I need Joanie, I need Joanie in my house. It would not have opened up the space for Irene to take Peanut. Yeah, and then Irene was destined to have Peanut. They were meant for each other. And all I was meant to do in that story was help joanie just continue to be, you know, loved and socialized until she was ready for Nicole, her now full time mom. Yeah, and stuff like that. It’s so interesting when things like that happen and you can take a step back and sort of say, oh, that’s why that happened. I didn’t want that to happen, but actually, that’s the best scenario. And, you know, the universe knew more than I did in that scenario. And it’s it’s incredible.

Cindy: It’s really- I mean, briefly,  I’ve seen it because I’ve volunteered longer than Sarah, I’ve seen it many times when the dog picks the, the person and, um, I won’t go into a million stories, but my favorite one is we had this little fluffy dog, and she was like five years, she was five years old and I can’t remember what her name was, but she went to a she went to a family, wanted to adopt her volunteer, took her to the Hollywood Hills, did the home check, and the volunteer said, don’t leave her in the backyard, you know, she’s you live in the Hollywood Hills… There’s coyotes and mountain lions all summer. And they’re like, we’re not going to. Three hours later, I get a call from Sue. I can’t remember what her name was…

Sarah: The dog?

Cindy: uh, Shirley or something like that. And she was like, she’s at the shelter. She got picked up and I was like, oh, and I said, what’s with the what did the family saying? She goes, oh, I’m waiting for them to tell me she’s gone. They haven’t even told me she’s gone. So anyway, I go to the shelter to get her, and then I and I got her, and I was, uh, taken her to Sue, and I said, um, so who’s going to foster? And she goes, oh, she goes, I’m actually doing a home check because… So Joni, so this little dog, let’s say, I’m going to say Shirley, but we’ll call it Shirley was called Shirley, this little fluffy, Sue’s going to hear this and go, it wasn’t Shirley, Cindy.—. They put her in the backyard, went out to dinner, turns out.   Well, Shirley said screw it. Left the the backyard. Went out into the Hollywood Hills at night. Was walking down the path, uh, a park ranger on his horse.

Alison: Wow.

Cindy: Came up the path.  Shirley steps out like on the path. Hello. And he was like, well, hello. And so he gets her,  because — and he’s on his horse, takes her to the ranger station, and then  he takes her to the, um, uh, shelter. They look up the chip, call us. And then when, uh, Sue talked to the shelter, they said the park ranger would like to talk to you about adopting her. Oh, and so when Sue went to do the home check, the park ranger said, well, I lost my dog, uh, five years ago, and she looked exactly like her. And so it really tugged at me. And then just in the time that I spent with her, because mine used to ride the horse with me and visit the, the ranger station and all that stuff. And so Sue said, I’m so sorry, when did you lose your dog? And he said, five years ago. And he said, how old is she? And Sue said, she’s five years old. Oh.

Alison: Oh that gives me chills.

Cindy: I know. So it was– I mean, I mean, Shirley or whatever her real name is, that Sue’s going to correct me, she went out and said, no, they didn’t listen to instructions. There’s a park ranger here meant for me.

Alison: And did he adopt her?

Cindy: And he adopted her. Yeah, and he used to send us a picture. He was very handsome in his flannel shirt and his… And we said she found her Dudley Do-Right. And then she would go to the ranger station, and all the rangers were like, with this little fluffy girl. And she was like, check it out.

Alison: I love that, I love when God, universe, spirit, whatever it is, you know? Yeah,  is just like, all right here, you know, and how that cute little dog just survived in the Hollywood Hills. Yeah.

Cindy: Oh, yeah. We were like, oh my God. Yeah.

Sarah: Like incredible.

Alison: Yeah. So sweet. You guys are so…  I mean we could talk for 3 or 4 hours.

Jean : Yeah. The stories, the stories are so great. And what you’re doing is amazing.

Alison:  Thank you so much for doing this.

Cindy: Yeah. Thank you. We love it. Yeah.

Alison: Do you cry about this? Because I would be crying…of the joy

Cindy: She’s newer.

Sarah: Yeah. I’m not jaded. I’m not jaded yet. As they like to say, I’ve only had a few years of doing it, but, um. Yeah, I cry a lot about it. Of course. Yeah.

Jean : Yeah. Beautiful.

Alison: It’s so emotional to like, you know, one of my earliest memories with my father, who passed away when I was young, was there was a cat at Christmas with a kitten stuck. And instead of celebrating Christmas, my father and I got that cat unstuck.

Sarah: Oh my gosh!

Alison: That is like one of the… like, things, that talk about imprinting.

Sarah: Yes.

Alison: And I’ve dragged my kids after dogs and, uh, birds and boxes of animals going to a, you know?

Cindy: Yeah.

Alison: They are So beautiful. These animals, you know?

Sarah: Yeah I know.

Alison: So I’m so grateful that they are in the world.

Sarah: Yes. Thank God. What would we do without animals?

Cindy: Yeah. And Sue always says like they,  you can tell like they they’re grateful. Like they know. Yeah. Hey. Thanks, man. You know, I mean, some of them, you know- Billy’s… Billy’s a little jaded like me, but most of them are very, like you can tell they’ve come from…. And she always says they come from… really? Because people go, what’s their story?

Cindy: And she’s very direct and she’ll say, they all have very sad stories, but they’re all going to have a very happy life from here on. And they they kind of know it. They they’re like, thanks, man. I was, uh, you know, some of them have been pulled from the mouth of a coyote, you know. I mean, it’s they’ve all got traumatic stories, and then they’re like, phew, thanks. This is much better. Yeah.

Alison: It’s so beautiful.

Jean : You’re so Right. You can feel their gratitude. And and they all have different personalities, which is so endearing. And, uh…

Cindy: Yeah.

Alison: I want another dog.

Sarah: That’s maybe another lesson they teach us., Acceptance. Yes. Accepting people as they are, not how we’d like them to be.

Alison: Right.

Cindy:  That’s the other thing, too. That a lot of them don’t hold a grudge.

Speaker2: Yeah.

Cindy: Uh, they will come from really bad circumstance, and they do not hold a grudge. It’s kind of a I mean, some of them stay scared. You know, you can then take longer for them to get adopted, but they all eventually do.

Sarah: No. There was a dog that we had a little Chihuahua again named Venus and…

Cindy: Oh, yeah.

Sarah: She actually came from. I mean, like Cindy said, none of them have great stories that they came from necessarily, but she was attacked by another dog, and the person that found her was just a woman in the community that came upon it. And she actually thought that Venus was past, because she was in such bad shape. And as she approached her, this will just kill you. Venus little tail was wagging, so she had just come through an incredibly traumatic event had just been attacked, and her first response is- so happy to see you. You know that. Just that. I can’t even imagine that. And then it was so sweet. She stopped by the event and Venus, of course, remembered her instantly,  and was just going nuts, you know? But you take something like that happens to a human. It takes us a lot longer to bounce back. Dogs are so resilient. Yeah, and just that capacity to love and that hope for better and ready to accept it. And you know, not hold that grudge is incredible.

Cindy: Yeah, I think it is because they’re here to circle back to that. They’re here a shorter time. So they’re like, we don’t have time for this. I’m going to they’re going to get over. I’m going to get over this. They do. They have a lot of resilience, you know.

Alison: And right now don’t we need hope for better?

Sarah: Oh my god more than ever.

Cindy: Yeah.

Alison: That’s just such a beautiful lesson that you that you’re reflecting back to us. So. Thank you.

Cindy: Yeah.

Alison: That was great, you guys. Except I’m crying..

Jean : Yeah,,, Remember Luna? We both knew Luna, and I was caring for Luna Yes, but her tail was big and you could hear it, outside the door. You can hear her tail whipping on the couch.

Sarah: that’s the Best sound right?

Alison: And it’s funny, though, like Luna…I think I was, I think I was bitten or hurt by a very big dog when I was young. Luna was like a big like.

Alison: Luna’s head was big. Dog was so gentle with me because I think it knew.

Cindy: Yeah.

Alison: I was thinking like, you could grab my whole upper torso, you know.? .

Alison: Just be so… And it was always around me, right? Like it was so.

Sarah: Protective.  And they’re so comforting to that non-verbal comfort. A lot of times they’re not going to say anything. They’re not going to give advice. They’re just going to support and be there. Yeah.

Alison: Well, thank you two. You really are… And Sue and what’s her husband’s name? Jason.   Yeah. Thanks So so much for everything you do and this interview. And…

Jean : But we have two more questions.

Alison: Yeah, we have two more.

Jean : Yeah. So what does the word insidewink mean to you?

Sarah: Do you want to go first or do you want me to?

Cindy:  So for me, I thought about this a lot. It means a lot of different things to me. But inside wink, I think for me, it means…. I get choked up. It’s, uh. It means a a friendship based on, uh, like, like vulnerability. When you really open up to someone and are vulnerable and get to know them and get, and then you have that inside wink with each other at, you know, at events or something where you can just look at each other and know, and I think dogs have inside winks too about when they do know it’s their person that comes to the events. We can see them ones that are really scared and shy, that won’t come out from under a chair. You’ll see someone come up with a very calm, kind energy and you see them go to them and I’m like, oh, there’s a little inside wink where they’re like, that’s my person. And then that’ll be their person. You know, that’s I think it’s like a, it’s a deep, um, friendship. Um, you know?

Sarah: Yeah.

Sarah: For me, I think it’s those moments that I was talking about similar to the one with Joni, where it’s sort of like you have an idea of what you want to happen, and it doesn’t work out like that, but it actually works out so much better. And it’s one of those things where it’s kind of like the universe is a little bit like, I still have you, I’ve got you. My mom always calls things like that- god winks. It’s sort of like, yeah, you really wanted this, but like, actually, this is better for you. And here’s this. And, you know, it’s it’s sort of like that, you know, a little bit of fate where I always say everything that happens is perfect regardless of what it is, because that’s exactly what was supposed to happen, and it’s exactly what you need. And so that’s that’s what I think of when I think of an inside wink.

Cindy: That’s gonna make me cry- wow. cool.

Sarah: We’re all going to be a mess. Oh, no!

Alison: Yes. Finally. What do you guys think? Pie. Cake or ice cream?

Sarah:  All.  Can I have all of the above?  I love them all.  I try deeply to understand everyone’s point of view, but when people tell me they don’t like dessert, it’s something where people tell me they don’t watch television. I’m a little bit like… Yeah, i’m not sure about you.

Cindy: Yeah, or they don’t like dogs, people don’t like dogs too.

Sarah: Yeah.

Cindy: Yeah. You don’t like desert and you don’t like dogs. What the…. Yeah. Uh, for me, it’s cake,  i love them all, too. But for me, it’s cake. But it’s a very painful time for me because I’m gluten free. Yes. And so I have to find gluten free cake, which I can find it, but it’s it’s, uh, sometimes when I’m out, out and there’s no gluten free dessert for me, I feel really resentful of my body chemistry. I’m like come on, man. And every once in a while I’m like, all right, I’m going to risk it. And then I regret it.

Sarah: You pay the bill,

Cindy: yea But, um, a couple bites is good… But cake, gluten free now.

Sarah: I guess technically, after the adoption events, I will frequently stop at Jeni’s and get two half scoops. It’s one of my little Sunday rituals, so maybe, maybe really ice cream. But I do enjoy all.

Alison: Yeah I like sort of the turducken of it. Like I could have pie with cake and ice cream.

Sarah: Yes, yes.

Alison: I don’t have any boundaries?

Sarah: A dream within a dream, allison.

Alison: Yeah. So we’re all simpatico here.

Cindy: Yes, yes.

Alison: Yeah. Thank you so, so, so much. Yeah.

Jean : This was so much fun… And and all the best to this amazing… Your amazing organization.

Alison: Yes.

Cindy: Spay and neuter your pets. Like Bob, like Bob Barker. Listen to Bob Barker.

Jean : And Betty White.

Alison: That’s right.  Thanks you guys.

Sarah: Thank you so much.

Alison: I’ll talk to you soon, Cindy.

Cindy: Yes. Okay. Bye bye. Bye.

Alison: Weren’t they great?

Jean : That was a fun interview.

Alison: Oh my gosh,

Jean : Just talking about animals.

Alison: I know, how bad could it be, right?

Jean : Yeah. What a great organization.

Alison: Yeah. LA animal Rescue. And look, they’re all volunteers. Like that just makes me feel like people really, people can be so amazing.

Jean : Absolutely. And, And animals, I think, really bring out the best of us humans.

Alison: I agree with you. Yeah, I agree with you. And I feel too, that they are so in touch with, like, they must see the best of humans. Like. Oh, they probably don’t see a lot like, like, you know, the ones that are abandoned. But when people come like that, that ranger story of like that made me… That was so sweet to me.  Yeah. You know? And, um. Gosh, it just makes me want to adopt, like rescue dogs.

Jean : Yeah. Yeah. They’re so dependent on us.

Alison: And what nice people. And they were fun and smart and kind.

Jean : They were wonderful.

Alison: And so thank you so much, Cindy and Sarah and Sue and Jason and everyone affiliated with them all. LA animal rescue. And if you work for anyone, like, there are so many organizations that help animals and so this is just one…

Jean :  But they really drove home the fact to please have your pet spayed and neutered.

Alison: Right. And if you can donate money or time.  That’s really wonderful. And now go ahead.

Jean : Okay.

Alison: You had an idea. Now.

Jean : So we are starting a new little wrap up. We’re calling it fun fact. And Alison and I are going to each share a fun fact.

Alison: Okay, so how do you want to do it? Like, do you want to guess what it is? Do you want to guess the truth or not. Or should we just say it like. What do you think?

Jean : I think if we can do a guessing thing is fun.

Alison: Okay, so you go first.

Jean :  Okay, so my fun fact is, around the human body, and what I found on the internet is that the human body consists of a lot of fat. Alison, how many bars of soap bars of fat does a human body make up an average human body?

Alison: So if it was like a bar of soap.

Jean : Yes.

Jean : And you’re not like a very, you know, overweight person or a very, very like an average person, right?

Alison: Like me?

Jean : Yeah. Or me.

Alison: Or you. All right. How many? How many? If they were measured in bars of soap. Right. Um, I’m going to say.

Jean : Think of, like, I guess an I guess an Ivory soap bar or something like that.

Alison: Okay, I’m gonna say, um. Oh, this is going to tell a lot about me. I’m gonna say, um, 20. And what is it?

Jean : Seven.

Alison: Seven. That’s not a normal.

Jean : I didn’t think so either. When I read that.

Jean : Seven bars of soap. Seven bars of fat. Like soap bars, right?

Alison: No, I have more on my one buttock.

Jean : You do not spend seven bars.

Alison: I definitely do.

Jean : Okay, so what’s yours?

Alison: I have another one for you. Um. Uh, okay. Well, since we’re going to do the body, I could do a body one. Okay. What’s the strongest muscle in the human body?

Jean : Um. The heart?

Alison: No. But that’s so sweet that you say that.

Jean : The butt,  the glute?

Alison: No. The tongue.

Jean : Ohhh,

Alison: Right?

Jean : Wow, I forgot the tongue. Yeah, that’s a great one.

Alison: That’s a good one, right? That’s a very good one. And if you guys have any fun facts, you can send them to us or send them to me.

Jean : Or just put them through the Instagram.

Alison: Oh, yeah. Tell us on Instagram. We would love that. All right. Well that was it. So thank you so much for listening.

Jean : Okay.

Alison: And we’ll see you next time.

Jean : And we enjoyed this and we hope you enjoyed it too.

Alison: help an animal…bye

Jean :  bye.

Alison : Hello.

Jean : Hi, there.

Alison : Okay. I’m sleeping. Why do you think I’m sleeping?

Jean : Because you’re having a dream.

Alison : That’s right, that’s exactly right. That is exactly right. Because we’re talking to a woman, a dream expert. But, like, more than an expert, like she’s..

Jean : Dedicated her life to um, to getting it out there, that our dreams are very powerful.

Alison : That’s right.

Jean : And very helpful.

Alison : That’s right. Right, right. Perfect. She wrote the book called, The Secret Mind — Unlock the Power of Your Dreams To Transform Your Life.

Jean : And we’re talking to Bonnie Buckner, who is also the creator of the,  International Institute for Dreaming and Imagery.

Alison : That’s right, that’s right. So you and I were just talking about dreams. How we never really thought about them. Like it was like, oh,  a dream…yeah..that was a thinkg, right?

Alison :  but then you were talking about, um, dreams that you might have had about about Alex.

Jean : Oh, yeah.

Alison : Right.  And that that some of them felt different.

Jean : Yeah. Some of them feel like I had a knowing that his soul, if you will, was really communicating with me like, oh, I had a a deep encounter with him versus just, oh, there was just a fleeting moment of him.

Alison : Right, right.

Jean : I either had like a knowing like, oh, he he visited me.

Alison : Hmm.

Jean : Versus just like an image of him.

Alison : I love that.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : Because, you know.

Jean : And I don’t get that a lot.

Alison : You don’t?

Jean : I wish I got it more, but I don’t.

Alison : Alex, are you listening? That’s right. Because Jean’s talking to you. I think it was just like like reading the book and beginning to think about dreams. I really want to remember my dreams more because I don’t right now, like I started to with this book, but I really think I want to, i want to remember them because I think they’re kind of fun because they’re so thick… My dreams are lots going on.

Jean : Well, she definitely says you can remember your dreams. It’s like a muscle. It’s a skill, right? And she she teaches how to remember your dreams, how to interpret them, understand them, and then to, and then it’s your responsibility to act on them.

Alison : Right.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : I can’t wait to talk to her.

Jean : I know.

Alison : I’m very excited. All right, here she is. Here’s Bonnie.

Jean : It’s wonderful to see your face in person. And thank you for writing such a, ” wow” book.

Alison : Yeah.

Bonnie : Thank you.

Jean : Really, really opened up my my knowingness of of dreams. I had no idea the power behind my dreams.

Bonnie : Oh, yeah!

Alison : Yeah. It’s amazing. We we we loved it. So we’re just going to dive right in. How did you get interested in all this? Dreams. And it’s just like, it’s amazing and it’s so in depth, your book. How did how did this begin for you?

Bonnie : Well, I, um, it came from a dream. When I was three years old. I had had nightmares and nightmares and nightmares, and I, um, was really troubled by it. I was scared of them. Right? And I had a moment one day where I was sitting outside in the morning on our front porch steps, and I started thinking, you know, maybe I can just never sleep. And then, you know, I’m a three year old kid. So I’m thinking, what’s the Guinness Book of World Records– never going to sleep,Right? And then I kind of just kept thinking through that and realizing, you know, I have to sleep. And it just kind of hit me, oh, that’s why I’m on this planet. I’m going to learn how to master my dreams and teach that to others. And, you know, it’s not something that I like really focused on. It was kind of in the back of my head, and I kept going through life. And I want to say this, this is really important to all those parents out there, who are your listeners– um, one thing that was really great is that my family supported me saying things like that. So they talked about dreams with me and talked about these kinds of things. And then when I was in junior high, one of my, one of the librarians handed me a book on dreams. And I just kept having these little tastes, these little moments going along until I found the dreaming lineage or tradition that really spoke to me as an adult.

Alison : Wow. That’s amazing. Three years old.

Bonnie : I think kids know things when they’re really young. Yeah, and then it gets kind of put aside or buried or, you know.

Alison : Right, I agree. So can you tell us, because we were just talking about this while we while we were on, what is a dream?

Bonnie : Oh, that’s a great question. Um, I want to know what you guys think is a dream? Because when we did finally get on and the zoom clicked in, you said, well, this was a dream… So what is a dream?

Alison : I kind of think. I kind of think everything’s a dream.

Bonnie : Yes

Alison : I kind of think everything’s an illusion and a perception. And I believe that …like When I was reading your book, I was thinking that you were able to tap into a greater level of thinking or a general, uh, a general consciousness. Um, I have never thought about dreams the way you explained them. And that’s what we were just talking about, that for us, it was like dreams were- oh, um, and like an afterthought or your brain trying to work something out. And then we were talking about A Christmas Carol, where he says, you’re just a piece of undigested potato.

Bonnie : Yeah.

Alison : Um, but. So that’s kind of what I thought. But, but but your book brings up such specific seven types of dreams. The the location, that principle, I , all these things that were like, wow, I, I never realized that. So I don’t know.  What do you think a dream is?

Bonnie : Well, let’s think of. Let’s back up just a little bit. We are in a body, and a body is form. And we look out into the world and we see forms. We see trees outside the window. We see this microphone. Everything that we feel we can really grasp is a form, but we also experience a lot of other things that don’t have that are invisible to the naked eye. We experience things like, um, right now I can feel this room is a little hot, it’s a little stuffy. I’m not seeing that. I’m feeling that, right? Then there’s even more ephemeral sort of things, like feeling like I’m in love or feeling like I’m in awe.. you know, try to explain that to somebody. Um, we lack vocabulary and visual reference for a huge amount of things that we experience in our lives. So, dreaming is all the time I’m going to pick up on perception, not illusion. I’ll be specific about that in the words, because for me it’s very, very real. It’s our body’s response to what we perceive. So I’m perceiving something, but on my inside I’m having some kind of response to it. I’m having an emotional response, or I’m just having a basic response. I like that, I don’t like that. How do I know what I feel? How do I know who I am? How do I know what decision I want to take? So our inside gives us a language of images. It puts into form the things that don’t have form so that we can look at it, make sense of it, and then respond to it.

Alison : Mhm.

Jean : Yeah.

Jean : Wow.

Bonnie : Yes.

Jean : Honestly. Bonnie.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : Like the name of your book, the title of your book, The Secret Mind. I think that is so apropos because it, it is this untapped wealth of wisdom and guidance that, that most of us haven’t been privy to. It’s just, oh, it’s a dream. You had a bad dream. Oh, you know, don’t worry about it. Or whatever our parents did to navigate… And you are opening up a whole new way to receive support from the universe, from God, from your higher self.

Bonnie : Absolutely. You know, we get we. Life requires us to, um, learn the culture we’re living in, whether it’s our family culture. It’s our, you know, growing up in Texas, like I did culture, if we moved to a new culture, we have to kind of figure out what’s the sort of, you know, guardrails of how people conduct themselves in these places. Those guardrails can be, um, useful because that’s how we exchange. It’s part of our social contract that we make with others and how we sort of go about our day. But they can also be, um, small and rigid. And so as we start to, you know, grow up and start to say things. And that’s why I mentioned parents earlier, I would say, I’m going to teach people how to work with their dreams. I grew up in the middle of nowhere in Texas. I mean, nowhere is a teeny tiny town in the Texas Panhandle. And yet my parents had the wherewithal to say, great. Yeah. Not every parent does that. Not every school teacher does that. And so we start to set things aside in ourselves to poo poo, you know, things that we’re feeling and we start conforming and we miss these other parts of ourselves. And that’s why, um, when we dream and most of our dreams, we have a lot of different things. We have characters, objects, scenarios, because those are all aspects of ourself that we haven’t been paying attention to. And then there’s just the plain old busy. We are busy and modern society is just moving at a pace that honestly, none of us can keep up with. And that pace requires us to just be always looking out and checking off and doing. And to really know ourselves, we have to stop and look inside and get really quiet. And so all these factors kind of keep us from that wisdom. As you’re talking about the part of me, that already knows what’s best for me. Mhm.

Alison : Yes. That’s so that’s so true. Uh, just for our listeners sake, I want, I would like to describe that almond dream.

Bonnie : Mhm. Okay.

Alison : So there’s um a dream that you reference in the book about a person that was trying to decide between jobs. Right. And they had a, was it a, it was, was it a dream, Dream or was it a waking dream in your office?

Bonnie : I did a waking dream.

Alison : A waking dream. And in the waking dream, uh, there is, um, a box and then a tree with, with, i think it’s a golden almond or.

Bonnie : One golden almond. Yeah.

Alison : And immediately, um, upon that you in this client were able to realize, I guess, after talking about what the box was and was, I think it was a cardboard box or something, and what this meant, and it meant that the person should take neither job and start on their own, once they got through this block. So the necessity of the dream means getting through, getting past this block. I thought about that dream so much because, how much is that, how much did you and the client know that it meant, hey, try another, try something different on your own? How how did that connection come up?

Bonnie : Yeah. So here’s what’s so great about dreams? Really.. All of us know what we really want to do. The big plaguing question is, why we’re not doing it? And all of these reasons we’ve been talking about are reasons that we sort of stick that in the bottom drawer. Way back. So in that scenario, this client had given me, you know, a very long really talked to me for like 45 minutes about the pros and cons of each of these two jobs. Like just spinning in circles, you know, because they were both great and they were both great offers. And so we did this little imagery exercise. And the first thing that she says to me, oh, I see this almond tree with this golden almond. I don’t want to take either of those jobs and then start spilling out all the things she had already been thinking through of starting her own practice. So it wasn’t even that… She just started thinking about it in that second. She had already driven the neighborhood and found a for lease sign, but it was locked away. That’s why, “unlock” is in the the title of the book as well. It had been locked away by her own lock and key, mind you. She knew what she really wanted to do, but she stuffed it away and was in that sort of logical thinking. You know what is going to be better? Because it’s a risk. But life wants us to take little risks. And that risk being what I really want to do with my life. So I didn’t do really anything. I gave a little exercise to help her get back to that dreaming place. And then, when she said, but there’s a block, there’s this, you know, cardboard box in the way, then I could help her a little bit. We’ll get over it. Help find a way over, under, through, around. And then that’s when she said, well, it’s just cardboard because it’s always just cardboard. It’s rarely super difficult. It’s just getting ourselves replugged in to the emotional, exciting tenor of what we really want to do.

Alison : I love that.

Jean : I do too. You know, when when I think of dreams, Bonnie, it’s really– dreams for dummies. Very, very basic. Like, oh, I had I think I remember I was driving a truck and I went over a mountain. Right. Let’s say I say something like that, now, for you hearing me say that, is that going to be the same interpretation that Allison would have? Like, is a truck the same for Jean, for Bonnie, for, you know, is there a different definition or symbol or image?

Bonnie : Everybody makes their own image vocabulary. I’m really glad you brought that up because people ask me, um, you know, I looked I had this dream and I went online, I googled it, and I, I immediately I’m just like, oh, no, I know something bad is about to come out. And what they say is I read these things about, you know, symbols and it’s not me ,that’s not you know what I think this dream is about.. So over Memorial weekend, I was in, um, visiting a friend in upstate New York, and we went to Niagara Falls. I’ve never been there. And she is a practitioner at the institute that I run for dreaming. And we were with a second practitioner. So there were three dreamers of us looking at Niagara Falls. And one of the groundskeepers there had found a little snake, and he was holding the snake, and all these little kids gathered around him, and they wanted to see the snake. And we got talking. You know, snakes are a great example of that because there’s a lot of different meanings that snakes can have and the experience each one of us has with a snake. And then the context in which that snake appears in a dream is determinant of what that means. So like those kids were super excited about the snake and they wanted to touch it and all of these things. Now, I grew up in Texas and we had poisonous rattlesnakes. So my sort of initial moment is, okay, wait, what kind of snake are we looking at here? You know? Total different universe that we’re coming from and that’s going to show up in our dreams.

Alison : And that’s interesting because I said to my husband, hey, I’m talking to a dream expert. What would you like to ask? And his thing was like, what’s an empty house mean?  and I said no, no, no. I said that I think that’s all for. He said, no, no, no ask, ask. And it’s funny because it’s not… There isn’t a thing.

Bonnie : There isn’t a thing.

Jean : There isn’t a code book.

Bonnie : That’s what gives us our power.

Alison : Right.

Bonnie : Because it’s my thing and it’s what I’m coming into with it. And if I’m looking, if I’m googling, what does this mean? I’m asking someone on the outside to tell me what my interior life is. Yeah, but if I take the time to get to know my interior life, then I have agency. And I do for myself, right?

Alison : That’s exactly, exactly right. Um, can you tell me you talk about seven different types of dreams, and they range like nightmare to great dream to, you know, clear dream. And then you talk about, um, the busy dream.

Bonnie : Yeah.

Alison : And it’s and and I that’s what I feel like I have all the time. When you said busy dream,  i’m like, check… that’s me. I think you say that that is is is is is an outgrowth of an unresolved problem or nightmare… Is that am I understanding that correctly?

Bonnie : Yeah. So let’s look at it this way. First of all nightmare I mean that’s the most common thing. And everybody who pretty much anywhere says, oh yeah, I’ve had a nightmare. Okay. We remember that for a reason. It scares us. And so, counterintuitively, nightmares are really great friends because they literally are trying to wake us up to something to a block. Okay, there’s a nightmare. I wake up, I deal with it. I don’t have it again, but maybe I don’t. Maybe it goes back to what Jean was saying earlier, just kind of pushing it away. And then it comes back. You know, people tell me sometimes I keep having this, you know, one dream, right? Maybe we even push that away. At that point, things start to pile up. And that’s really what a busy dream is, is the pile up? Sometimes I refer to it like, you know, if you come home, you leave your socks in the middle of the floor. One set of socks is not really a problem. You could clean it up, but then day after day for leaving socks, it’s starting to be like, oh, there’s a pile of things. But then some friends are going to come over. Instead of dealing with the socks, we just pull a carpet over it, pretend it’s not even there. Right? But then at some point, we’re going to forget that it’s about socks and we’re going to start to deal with this carpet. Why does this carpet have a lump in the middle of it? And then we are so off track at that point because we’re looking at the wrong thing. We have to dig back in.

Alison : Right. So that’s and that interested me because I don’t remember a nightmare that would have instigated busy dreams. So how could somebody. Because I talked to a lot of people and they’re like, oh yeah, I’m rushing around. I’m doing stuff. I’m there’s a million people. They’re all busy. Um, what can I do? Or what can I tell someone else to do to get back to the nightmare? How do I ask myself that at night? Or, like, how do I wait?

Bonnie : Hang on.

Alison : Okay.

Bonnie : Because I’m going to move you in a different direction… not to get back to the nightmare, but let’s go towards coherence here. Okay. Um, I will say this. This is a caveat because a lot of people say to me at the beginning, oh, I’m only having busy dreams. But in fact, they’re not, often. Often they’re clear dreams, but there’s, you know, at the beginning when you don’t know how to draw the lines, you know, connect the dots, it just seems like there’s all these crazy things going on. But when you start to work with them, then you start to realize this makes sense. Like these go together, these vignettes. So it’s kind of more, maybe an easier way to start to wrap your hands around it is color. So a clear dream is going to have everyday colors and maybe one sort of bright spot like the pool had really turquoise water, you know, that’s kind of a a clear dream. But a busy dream is like it’s more murky, like Sienna colors. Like it doesn’t quite get anywhere.

Alison : Right.

Bonnie : And that can happen too. I need to say, when we’re super tired, when we’re, you know, it doesn’t have to follow that linear progression, exactly, from nightmare to busy dream. The nightmare might be in my waking time. I’m just burning the candle at both ends. You know, things like this.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : Colors. I forgot that. You’re right. You say that.

Bonnie : I’m not testing y’all. But I do appreciate that you read the book.

Alison : You said it, though… I’m, you know….

Jean : Okay, so if I’m a new person, that’s that’s hearing this, this interview, and I go, wow, I, I want to start tapping into my dreams like a newbie. And I have my yellow legal pad next to my bed. You take it from there, Bonnie, what what do you suggest this person do to start working with their dreams?

Bonnie : Do you have a yellow legal pad? Is that how you’re doing it?

Jean : No, I don’t, I don’t,  for me, i lay in bed before I go to bed at night and I’ll… because of reading your book, I’ll go, you know, please show me right now, i say show me what I need to know?

Bonnie : Okay.

Jean : Help me to remember my dream.

Bonnie : But what do you put it in?

Jean : In my head.

Bonnie : Okay. That’s the, that’s the problem.

Jean : Okay.

Bonnie : So yellow legal pad is fine. That’s a step up from the head. But, um, intention is key. Any sleep study, any neuroscientist will tell you a little bit of intention, kick starts dream recall. So if you go out and find a pretty journal, a little step up from the legal pad, something’s pretty and you’re kind of excited about it. You know, journals are kind of fun. You’re going to put things in it. That’s a great way to start. And so write the date on the first page and your sentence like the sentence that you said. Or tonight I’ll have a dream and remember whatever sentence you want. And then put the pin there and write it down. One of the things I would love to do is like hover over people when they’re about to get out of bed and push them back in and say, wait, because we tend to jump out of bed and like, go, go go go go. If we just stay there quietly, so many more things, just even five minutes will come back that, and especially if you start writing in your dream journal feeling– snippets of songs, all of these things are part of that dream experience emotions and then just sit with that and have a question about it. I was having a conversation with a guy yesterday about this, actually, and he was like, I just get out of bed and go. And I said, but what if you just laid there a little longer? And the more we talked, he was like, yeah, because actually, if I need to think and have a good idea, it’s normally in the shower, you know, when I’m relaxed and I’m not really thinking. I said, well, that part of your brain, the default mode is what’s operating in that sleepy time, mind wandering time when you’re waking up. And it’s so fruitful and it’s so good for us and so creative. So just sitting in that space a little bit relaxing, not grabbing the phone and just thinking like, why am I waking up with this, this snippet of all the songs I know? What’s this snippet about? And follow the association, because it’s probably going to associate you to something. Oh yeah, that happened yesterday or that happened last week, and just follow it and see what opens up.

Alison : Yeah, that’s that’s that’s great. Beautiful. And you also can you also talk to the listeners, um, about the connection between dreams and imagination and creativity, because I find that I found in your book that keeping referencing those was very inspiring to me.

Bonnie : Mhm. Well, it’s inspiring to me too. And it’s needed. I mean, I really am kind of on a mission to get people to really get back into their dreaming, to source that infinite place of creativity that all of us have, because we all have it and we use it every single day, and we don’t think about it because we’ve created this sort of idea of like, well, I’m not Mozart or I’m not, you know, Picasso. But Ruth Richards is a creativity researcher and she talks about everyday creativity. Think about the ingenuity that it takes to think about how do I start a podcast? How do I pay my bills? You know, we we are creating all the time and we’re creating without even knowing it. We’re creating relationships. We’re creating communities. So the part of our brain that is responsible for dreaming the default network, is also the part that is responsible for our imagination. It’s the part of our brain that, um, has all of these experiences, memories, associations, inner knowings. How do I know what I know? It’s all kind of stored in there. And the default network takes that to imagine new things with it. I’ve been doing this up to this moment in my life, now let’s imagine somewhere else.

Bonnie : It’s also responsible for, I call it social cognition. It’s it’s that grab bag of things, of empathy, and how do I know that what I said, you guys understood? Or maybe did I upset somebody? Or we have to imagine, like, really put ourselves in other people’s shoes to know that. And so dreaming is all part of that same network of, um, that neural processing network. And the more we dream, I believe, the more creative, because we’re spending time there. And that’s kind of on the radar right now of, of neuroscience research, because the other major neural processing network is the executive network, and that’s the one. We just use it all the time. Every time we pick up the phone, we’re using it every time we do, you know, two plus two equals that kind of cognitive, goal driven thinking. But the two are supposed to talk to each other, and that’s called functional connectivity. And the more we are just pounding technology and pounding these goal directed things, the less they’re cross talking, and that’s a problem, you know, if we can’t imagine new ways of being, new ways of creating societies, governments, etc., then we’re just going to repeat the same thing ad infinitum.

Alison : I think what you’re saying is so important right now, especially with AI.

Jean : I was just going to say that.

Alison : I heard you.

Jean : I was so thinking that.

Alison : Because right now so many people I know say, oh, I like they, they write a, um, a promo for a podcast. And they didn’t even write it.

Bonnie : Yeah.

Alison : I it’s just and and like, there’s part of the, I think part of the good stuff about writing it yourself is the frustration and making it better. You know, personally, I kind of like the oh, that’s not really– like I like that part of the creative process. So I think what you’re saying is so crucial right now. And when you say you’re on a mission, can you just go flesh that out a little bit for us? Like, how are you? How is that showing up for you? Your mission.

Bonnie : Well, one of the dreams that I mentioned in the book is the Johnny Appleseed of Dreams, um, which was a dream of mine, of really sort of getting seeing myself as kind of Johnny Appleseed and understanding that it’s about planting, you know, dreams in places, meaning teaching people how to work with dreams and training people to work with dreams. So they teach more people to work with dreams. Um, I bring dreaming work into, um, some unexpected places. Let’s say through the institute, um, we provide programming at the George Washington University, um, center for Excellence in Public Leadership’s coaching programs, the eco coaching program. And we use that as a means of training people to learn to look inside themselves. And coaching is a really great place to bring in dreaming because we think of coaching as goals. I want to change my job, so get me from A to B, that’s what people bring to a coach, or I need to learn how to do XYZ and coaches often, then just pick that up and run with it. But none of us make decisions that um, That don’t come from an emotional place. In one way or another, you know, and from a very simple thing of just I really feel this, and so then we really go for it. And so when we’re talking about coaching, for example, go back to the Almond dream. Am I going to coach somebody on that pros and cons list, like that woman brought to me, if so, she’s going to take one of those two jobs and that’s another five years that her real dream inside gets buried. But if I can plug in to the real emotion of what she really wants to do, and that’s why she couldn’t take that decision because there was no emotional connection there. If I can get to that place, then people can just move and move so fast. That woman’s a perfect example. She wrote me an email three months later and said she was on track to earn more that year than what either one of those two jobs would have brought in. And it’s because she was motivated and enthusiastic. So when I say I’m on a mission, I just I’m stomping around in as many places as I can. That will open the door to me to talk about this, to get people to just very simply just start writing your dreams– just that, because it’s your way in to know more about yourself.

Alison : Yeah. That’s great.

Jean : It really is wonderful. So, so can people just go to your website and you offer a whole bunch of different classes and courses on.

Bonnie : yeah. So anybody can come to the website. We have classes year round. Um, you can find some of the practitioners, myself included. We do one on one sessions with people. If people want to have, you know, that individual work. Um, we also, a lot of organizations come to us and ask us to put together, um, programs for them. And these can be extensive programs. They can be smaller programs. You know, we’ve had just groups of people say, hey, I’ve got I did this a couple of weekends ago. I’ve got ten of my friends. Can you just teach us dreaming just to get us going a little bit? Yes. So, yeah.

Jean : Bonnie, can you dream for someone else?

Bonnie : What do you mean for?

Jean : Let’s say, like Allison here says to me, you know, I I’ve just been, like, really busy lately. Can can you see if you get any insight from my from my dog, like how my dog is doing, you know, can can.

Bonnie : You mean like a sort of clairvoyant reading.

Jean : Yeah.

Bonnie : I mean, we do have intuitive dreams and intuition. Just when we’re awake and premonitory dreams. Yeah. Um, and if you think about it, we’re all connected. We’re all…

Jean : That’s why I ask, like…

Bonnie : Yeah, yeah. Um. And I frequently, uh, especially around if I have clients who are trying to get pregnant, I very frequently will dream when they get pregnant.

Jean : You do?

Bonnie : Um, I do, but I don’t say that to them. It’s their journey to get pregnant. Um, it would be out of my out of step for me to say, hey, this is going to be a great day. I just dreamed that you got pregnant. I wait, they can come to me and say, I finally did it, we’re pregnant. And then I can say, yeah, I had a dream that kind of made me feel that was going to be the case because I am me, so anything I dream or intuit has to come through my lens and it’s only my lens. And that might get filtered through a lot of other different things. And we have to be careful to kind of know, you know, what’s mine, how much of that is me and how much of that is somebody else?

Alison : And then, yeah, that makes that’s you talk about that, about the baby and the swimming pool.

Bonnie : Yeah.

Alison : That was a great that was a great dream. Um, uh, if you dream about, uh, my eldest child dreams about my mother, who’s passed, um, pretty frequently. And I’m always really interested in those dreams. Is that my mom communicating with my child or, like, is that just basically only not only, but specifically rooted in my child?

Bonnie : I would have to talk to your child, but, um, I can address that. And it’s interesting, it really because I have been on the road a lot the last few weeks and doing a lot of workshops, talking to a lot of people, and that is, that has become the number one thing people ask me about. It used to be nightmares, and now people are asking me about this and they all want to know, is it a real visitation now? Um, if there’s a quality to it that feels different and the people are saying to me it felt different. I know it’s a visitation. It’s a visitation. If it’s like they just kind of showed up in the dream. And now I’m going to say it’s a part of you that you have, you know, reflected an aspect of them. And it depends on the quality. And it’s it’s a difficult thing to describe to people, but it’s kind of like, you know, the difference between an intuitive moment, you know, where like, your hair stands up on your arms or, you know, and time feels different versus just a, yeah, I’m going to go to the grocery store right now. That’s just a regular decision. So visitation dreams are kind of the same.

Jean : I can relate to exactly what you’re saying. It’s very hard to articulate, but I’ve had a dream where my husband, I had a dream about Alex, and I knew I was like, oh, he he was there. He was there. And other times I’ve had dreams and there was no substance to it. There was it was very fleeting. It really didn’t feel… But not many, but maybe three times I’ve had a dream where like a knowing almost. Oh, that that was.

Alison : Oh, that’s beautiful.

Jean : Or my grandmother.

Alison : Right, right, right, right. So.

Bonnie : Um, you you also, I wanted to ask you this. You talk about in the book, that jewelry store incident.

Bonnie : Yes.

Alison : You’re in a jewelry store, and it’s it’s like one connection after another, after another. And then it’s about moving to Paris and.

Bonnie : Moving to France. Yeah.

Alison : That’s right. And then the woman comes in, and this, this arbitrary woman comes in looking for necklaces, which I guess she couldn’t really see the way the the thing was positioned. And then , she you mention a town or someone mentioned the town. She goes, that was your dream. And like, books out of there. What what was she?

Bonnie : I don’t know. And that’s what’s so wonderful about dreaming.

Alison : Amazing. Like it gives me chills.

Bonnie : It is so amazing. So, you know, I want to go back to the visitation for one second because I work with a lot of, um, corporate people, people who are in, you know, very high up positions who come, you know, suit and tie, let’s say, sort of sense to them. And so many people say to me, you know, even sometimes our first meeting together, they lean in, even though it’s just the two of us on zoom. And they whisper, I think my grandmother visited me in a dream. And these are people that you wouldn’t think are into that kind of thing, right? But I, I really love that because we are connected and we are, there’s way more to life than what we see. And it’s so important to allow that. Just allow that to be the case. And when we start to say, okay, I’m I can allow that, I can be curious that there’s more than what meets the surface. Um, it’s little things. It’s little connections. I mentioned this dream workshop that I did the other day, and this man was saying, yeah, I understand that. And he goes, I was with my son and we were at a pond and we were watching this heron, and he said, suddenly I was looking at the pond and the heron and my son, but it was like all of a sudden the colors were way more vivid. And time just slowed down for us and we had such a meaningful moment. And he said, I just started connecting the dots to my son and our family and where we are and the heron and what that means to me. And he said I was having a dream while I was awake. And I said exactly. It’s just a different way of perceiving the world at a moment in time and seeing, kind of like reading between the lines, seeing something beyond just the surface.

Jean : Yes.

Alison : So that’s the exciting part of life.

Bonnie : Yeah. It’s so much more vivid. And I just wrote a blog this morning about falling in love with life. You know, there’s something that all the dreamers who work any amount of time with us at the institute say is everything becomes Technicolor. You know, like, just little things, like butterflies. I notice going to my car to go to work. Whereas before I would have been in my head busy thinking about my to do list, I would have missed it. You know, there’s miracles all around us in our most quotidian daily activities, but we’re so busy in our minds we miss it. So part of dreaming is just becoming very present to the wonder that’s all around us.

Alison : And it seems like a lot of people that we’re interviewing lately, another, uh, theme is curiosity.

Bonnie : Yeah.

Alison : I feel like that’s what your book really opened up for me. A whole curious thing of a whole other, you know, access point for me, which was, which was exciting, you know. Do you agree?

Jean : 100%. I know two people right in my mind now that I’m going to send your book to. They’re big dreamers and and I think this is going to be so helpful.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : The work you’re doing is so inspiring and so beneficial, Bonnie.

Alison : Do you have a morning ritual?

Bonnie : I do..I it’s kind of extensive, right? But I’m also I prepare myself to teach. But the very first thing is to be in that I’m not awake but I’m not asleep space. And I really extend that even, it means for me when I have, you know, events to get to or appointments, really waking up with enough time to lay in that in between space. And a lot of the things I’ve written and, and created has come from that place. And they come in little like snapshots, like a whole chapter as a snapshot. And I get it. And I just make some little notes in my dream journal, and then I can do whatever in my day and then come back to it when I’m ready to actually do something with it. So I extend that time until I kind of I can just feel when it’s coming to a close, you know? And then I do some imagery exercises to clear myself and and get ready to start my day. And then I have my day. And then I do a cleansing ritual at the end of my day to clean up what has happened in the day, clear myself again, and get ready to receive something in the dream.

Alison : Wow, you’ve you’ve really paved your highway. I kind of love it.

Bonnie : I love that expression. I’ve never heard that– paved my highway…

Alison : (unclear audio)  You’re like, okay, I’m ready… Bring it on in. It’s great, you know?

Alison : Thank you. So thank you so much. I can’t tell you how much we both enjoyed the book, and, uh, just you and you’re so very peaceful.

Jean : Yeah. You’re lovely to speak with

Alison : You’re really so kind

Bonnie : Oh, thank you, thank you. Thanks for having me.

Jean : We have two last questions, So the name of our podcast is Insidewink. And so what does that term mean to you?

Bonnie : So I love that question because we are getting these little inside winks all the time. What that means to me, how I dream it, as the dreamer of this dream, is it’s those little like a wink. It’s like those little fireflies that kind of light up for just a second and illuminate a next step. That’s all we need. And then we have to just be courageous enough to take that next little step. And then another little firefly is going to light up. So these little inside winks are kind of, for me, the dreaming. It’s like move there. Okay. Yeah. And I love that. What does it mean to y’all? Where did this come from?

Jean : Well, Allison imagined the word. So she came up with it. And, um, I think for me, I mean, it changes. But the core of the meeting is, what’s within yourself that wants to to to be acknowledged and, and winked at like, that’s a good thing within yourself. You know, you can be a great accountant, you can be a beautiful school teacher. But whatever that is within you, it’s like, that’s a good thing. Like winking at it.

Bonnie : Yeah.

Alison : And everyone that we asked the question to, all the answers are right. So that’s kind of the beauty of that expression. Like and everyone says something that is really how their, their personality shines through. You know, for me it just means that the it’s the curiosity, love and me sees that in you Bonnie and and and your deepest, your deepest part of your love and soul sees that in me and Jean. And that’s that’s kind of like we get each other without even realizing it from the get go.

Bonnie : I love it. You know, I love all three of these dreams so much. It’s wonderful.

Alison : And now for maybe the best dream. Do you like pie, cake or ice cream? What would you prefer?

Bonnie : Okay, out of those choices, I would choose pie. But if I can go off road and really dream it, it’s going to be cookies.

Alison : Oh.  What kind of cookies?

Bonnie : Chocolate chip. Ladies… Come on.

Jean : With or without walnuts?

Bonnie : Either.

Alison : Really?

Bonnie : I am a cookie monster.

Alison : Really?

Jean : Do you have a great chocolate chip cookie recipe?

Bonnie : I don’t, and I don’t cook with recipes very much. I just sort of, like, get in there. I know y’all have recipes on your website.

Jean : Well, I have a favorite recipe for chocolate chip cookie and.

Bonnie : Oh, send it.

Jean : I’ll Send it to you.

Bonnie : Please send it to me.

Jean :  I’ll send you my easy, but never fail-  phenomenal chocolate chip cookie.

Bonnie : I’m so grateful already because let me tell you, the cookie is pretty close to perfection, right?

Alison : I agree with you. Yeah.

Jean : Hail to the cookie.

Alison : That’s right. That’s right. All hail. Thank you so, so much, Bonnie. You’re just so wonderful. And I think people are going to get so much out of this. And you really are the Johnny Appleseed. You’re doing great.

Jean : You are.

Bonnie : Thank you. Thank you so much.

Jean : Thank you.

Bonnie : Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Alison : Have a beautiful day.

Bonnie : Thanks. Y’all too. Bye bye.

Jean : Well, I have now a completely new take on dreams– I’m going to be, i’m going to I’m going to have a oh, we’re going to each buy each other a dream journal.

Alison : That’s right. I’m going to buy you one and you’re going to buy me one so that we have our journals and we can really see if we can invest some time and thought, And I love the idea of staying in bed longer.

Jean : You know, and she’s not the only one that suggests that that morning time, it’s a it’s like a very potent time to to set your intention, um, to ask for help because you’re still not fully in the realm of the…

Alison : Waking.

Jean : 3d or whatever. You’re you still have this some energy left from the from the higher self.

Alison : I love that, right..  And I love that she, it felt, um, almost spiritual and scientific what she was talking about. Like, she really is coasting between those two sort of ideologies. Right? Like, she’s, like, talking about studies and and yet she’s talking about we’re all connected, which is what we discover every time we interview somebody.

Jean : Isn’t that true?

Alison : Right.

Jean : And I and I think that’s so beautiful that we really are awakening to a greater interconnectedness between each other.

Alison : Yeah. And that’s not an easy word to say.

Jean : No. And I did it without saying, um, and pausing for a few seconds.

Alison : I could not have done that. I’m very impressed right now.

Jean : Well, I’m impressed with Bonnie. Yeah.

Alison : Me too.

Jean : Her book is a wealth of information.

Alison : It’s so deep. There’s so much going on in the book. So if you have a minute to pick up, The Secret Mind,  or check out her website. And there is so much going on there and so many tools. It’s really great.

Jean : Yeah. And it’s and it’s it’s like exciting to see what will come forward.

Alison : Right.

Jean : Like when you pose a question to your higher self and you really take time to communicate– like what comes forth?

Alison : Right…

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : It’s like every morning could be like your birthday. Like little gifts, little gifts. In the morning, well have a great day and a great night. Dare I say a great night? Right?

Jean : Right.  Sweet dreams.

Alison : That’s right. There you go. Buy.

Jean : You go first.

Alison : Me go first? Hello, Jean.

Jean : Hello, Alison. You’re looking mighty fine this morning.

Alison : Thank you. We had a lovely event last night.

Jean : Yes, we went to the Wespark, uh, torchbearer ceremony.  I was thanked along with many other wonderful people for contributing to Wespark…

Alison : Which is a cancer support organisation. They’re wonderful. And what a what a lovely group of people that we met. And we knew some.

Jean : We did we, we saw, um, Ed Begley Jr and his beautiful wife,

Alison : Who we’ve interviewed, and Danny Miller, who we’ve interviewed,

Jean : And his lovely wife Saguda was there and, um,

Alison : We knew Marlene McGirt and Nancy Allen, who we’ve interviewed.  insidewink gets around.

Jean : We do. We get in all the hot places.

Alison : That’s right. But it was fun. And I’m not I don’t really necessarily feel very comfortable at those reception thingies, but you’re so good at, like, talking with people, like, just they’ll say, oh, Jeanne, this is Bob. And you’re like, hello, Bob. And how, what brings you here?

Jean : And what sign are you, Bob? Do you know your moon sign?

Alison : You’re so good at it. I’m like, hi, Bob.

Jean : Okay. I think we’re going to drive our listeners nuts, but that’s so not true, Alison, you are a great speaker.

Alison : I think … I learned from you.

Jean : Oh my goodness. Okay, well, we learn from each other, but you you are great on your own.

Alison : Well thank you. Thank you so much. I just mainly stayed by the food area where I feel most comfortable.

Jean :  me too. I was by the bar where I’m most comfortable.

Alison : It was truly a lovely, lovely night. And speaking about learning, we are going to learn a lot today, aren’t we?

Jean : We are. Because we are speaking to Anne.

Alison : Sanderson.

Jean : Right.

Alison : Who was recommended by a friend of ours.

Jean : Beth.

Alison : Beth. Right. And, uh, there she’s with an organization, or she founded an organization called, Thinker Analytics.

Jean : Correct. And and I think their philosophy, their mission is excellent because goodness knows, we people need to know how to think in a productive and informative and clear way.

Alison : Exactly. And so it’s a lot about critical thinking, which I’m not even sure I fully understand that. And also, um, argument mapping. Yeah. So I’m really interested to hear what she says. So then we can…. You and I can get some really good arguments and just map them out.

Jean : Exactly. That that’s my goal, right?

Alison : That’s it. That’s what we’re living for. Well, here she is, Anne Sanderson.

Alison : Hi. How are you?

Anne: Fine. Thank you.

Jean : Great. Well, thank you for making time to be with us.

Alison : I’m Alison.

Anne: Oh, nice to meet you. Yeah.

Jean : And I’m Jean.

Anne: Okay, great. Well, we’ve all read our website, so…

Alison : That’s right.

Anne: I’m Anne. Um. And I’m the executive director of this of this organization. And, um. Yeah, your your whole philosophy and approach to, uh, human beings really is kind of, uh, wonderful and, you know, very Uplifting. So. And we don’t usually have, um, interviews with or podcasts with people who are taking that approach. Um, usually it’s, you know, in academia. So this is going to be really fun. I’m looking forward to it.

Alison : Thank you for saying that. We we looked at your website, and I have to say, it’s kind of amazing, and I’m so curious to actually understand what it all means.

Anne: Yeah, I think you and many other people, I think it’s part of our project, is just messaging the deficit in critical thinking skills in, uh, I would say this country, but I would probably, I think probably the whole world in some, in some ways, just with technology and changes in the way people learn and classrooms and interactions with screens, all of the things we know about and have known about for a long time. But Thinker Analytics is is really trying to give people these cognitive skills, these skills of critical thinking that are just so important to confidence and, uh, kind of respectful interaction.

Jean : I mean, right out the gate that that is so important to, to really teach someone how to think. It it reminds me of that slogan. I don’t know if you know this. It was the, um, the American, but it was a mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Anne: Yes, I remember that. Yeah. Um.

Jean : Um, the Negro fund, the American Negro.

Anne: Yes. Way, way back when. Indeed. Yes. And, um.

Jean : And rather than just. It sounds like, just hear, memorize this, memorize that. You’re really, uh, giving people  the best tools, how to use this phenomenal mind that we’ve been born with.

Anne: I hope so. I think that and just, uh, just agency in your in your life, um, if you have these critical thinking skills and sometimes people want to develop the whole child and, and, um, in emotion and, uh, feelings and we are so behind that. Um, but also having these kind of cognitive skills that I think are connected. But I can’t explain how from all my years of teaching, but having these cognitive skills, skills, kind of these intellectual skills of logic and reasoning. I think that’s got to be one of the underpinnings of a, of a confident thinker, um, and a respectful thinker.

Alison : What actually is critical thinking?

Anne: Well, this is a great question. That doesn’t and I’m not saying that in a kind of a cliche way. Um, I was just reading another article because we’re about to do a partnership, um, working with AI and trying to use AI in a really positive way to, to help students think critically. The definition is simply not pinned down. I think it’s because, like many terms, it is a term that has an umbrella of meanings. Um, it just has many, many meanings and people squish them all in there. But um, really, for the purposes of what we do and many people who use the word critical thinking, technically, I would say it is the, uh, it’s the skills associated with argumentative reasoning, which is reasoning logically, um, and, uh, using relevant and true, um, evidence and  inference to make a good argument. That’s what critical thinking is at its kind of its core. And then it makes you better decision maker. Problem solver. Um, you know, all of the things negotiator, all of the things that you use and extend those skills extend out to make people more reflective and kind of precise when they think.

Alison : I have to say, I love you a little bit more because you said sqush.

Anne: Well, I work with philosophers who are interestingly, very much computational people, um, and computer scientists. I taught English and theology, so.

Alison : Oh.

Anne: And raised four children. So the word squash has a very special, I’m sure.

Alison : I love that.

Anne: Your parents, you know, it has a very special meaning. Yeah.

Alison : How do I know that I’m not, or I am critical thinking?

Anne: These are really insightful questions. I think, um, probably — A,  you’re you’re you you probably don’t know if you’re not critical thinking. Um, I think critical thinking requires, um, a word I used before, which is precision of what you hear and kind of patience to process it accurately and then respond. Um, and it happens in many different contexts. So if you’re just critical, if you’re thinking to yourself, um, you’re reflecting on what you read, um, and you’re making inferences that are, um, that are true, as I said, and accurate. And then you are applying that thinking to maybe a problem or making an association with something else, um, and bringing that together or synthesizing it into a, a new idea or a clarifying idea. All of these things are so abstract, by the course and very hard to understand. I’m grateful for this podcast just to refine that message, because as I said, when you talk to academics, they have a sense of this critical thinking definition. But I have to say, I think part of the problem with critical thinking is we don’t have a really, uh, a really condensed definition that will help people understand what it is. What what I think is helpful when I talk to people is, it’s a very active kind of thinking. Um, if you are an athlete or you, you work out. It’s kind of like active thinking because you have to be going back and forth, and you’re checking yourself to make sure you’re you’re accurate and your logic is solid. And there are actual measures of whether or not you’re doing it well. Um, so, uh, it’s less interpretive at its core.

Alison : Oh. That’s interesting.

Anne:  and more precise. Yeah.

Jean : Anne, how do you feel, or what do you notice in people’s thinking? Like an average person. Like what’s your your sense of how people think?

Anne: I, uh you mean the maybe the problem we’re trying to solve?

Jean : Yes.

Anne: Would be, I think what happens is that, um —and of course, siloing makes this worse, just obviously… Um, but you approach a conversation or a text, um, with some kind of assumption, um, about what you’re about to hear. Um, and that gives you then you’re predisposed to having a certain interpretation of what you hear. So, um, slogans can do this. We do it in the course where we have what you were talking about before, a slogan or a powerful phrase that kind of bends your thinking, uh, in a certain way. Um, and I think that’s what happens. People enter conversation without, uh, the idea that you’re going to learn something from it, the conversation. But the idea that you just want to put your, uh, position forward and that, um, act is honestly where we are with polarization and so on, because it just shuts things down. It doesn’t open your mind. Um, and one thing I actually was reading about that I was going to say, but make me pause if I’m talking too much.

Alison : No, you’re great.

Anne: I’m not prone to that. Okay. Um, is that the word argument, um, comes from a Latin word that means clear, white and illuminating. And what argument has come to me…So when we go to people, the first thing they think about their slant on argument is that it’s fiery, incendiary, frustrating, full of falsities. Everybody, you know, comes to a discussion that’s going to be an argument like that, where the definition is really about disagreeing with people to get all sides. So you’re somehow enlightened or you gain some illumination on an issue. So it’s really the act of learning. And so what we’re trying to do is get that definition forward instead of the first definition in dictionaries right now, which is a fight. And that’s where the course starts, is just making that distinction and letting people feel comfortable in a new definition.

Alison : That’s so that’s so interesting. And I think, you know, we talk about this a lot with our guests about curiosity. And it sounds like that’s sort of what you’re referencing that like right now I’m going to just get my point across to Jean as opposed to really being curious about Jean. right?

Anne: It’s spot on.

Alison : Okay.

Anne: Curiosity is spot on. Yeah.

Alison : So here we are at Thanksgiving, and we have family members from all different backgrounds. What tips can you say to me to get through that dinner without jumping over the table and throwing mashed potatoes?

Anne: Okay, this is the hard part of Thinker Analytics. So I and I will bore you. But that is a trope and I love the trope. We even have something on our website around Thanksgiving, so for those crazy conversations. Um, but what our whole mission is to give people the skills so that when they walk into that conversation, they will be, um, they will be calm because they will be listening for the argument, they’ll be listening for the way the person’s reasoning and be able to calmly tell them where they disagree. Not that they’re wrong, but where they disagree and why. And you do that with this visualization process, with argument maps. And that’s the bread and butter of what we do– is train and the students train and they practice and they practice with these argument maps so they understand how arguments work. So you’ll enter that Thanksgiving conversation with the confidence to listen to someone that you disagree with. And also just the kind of respect for the moment when you can be curious about their position. Um, but you referenced learning. I mean, listening, and that’s, the key part of curiosity, because if you’re curious but you’re not really listening and responding to exactly what the person’s saying, conversations aren’t going to go anywhere.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : That is so true.

Alison : And I’ve been in those.

Anne: So have I,  many times.

Jean : Yeah. And, you know, there’s a certain quality of a conversation when someone is thinking mindfully, they have an open mind, you know, you can you just –there’s a depth to that conversation. And I and I love it sounds like that’s what you’re, you’re helping people to to expose. So who are your clients?  Are you in universities like, who comes to you?

Anne: Um, you all ask the best questions. So we started in high school because I was a high school teacher. And what we soon found is that high school teachers couldn’t teach reasoning because, they were never taught reasoning. So reasoning skills are not taught as a discrete skill set in most schools. Um, so we pivoted to higher ed, where professors have have really treated reasoning as something they have to do because they’re writing dissertations. And that’s going to be, uh, how they make a living. Um, and so that’s where primarily we work, um, with those folks and with, um, you know, private schools at the secondary level that have the resources and, uh, maybe a philosopher on staff that can that can help with the reasoning part. So, um, yeah, mindfulness is very interesting to me. I mean, if we all had mindfulness exercises before entering even the realm of reasoning, it would just be so much better. It’s just a calming down part. But that’s not what we do. We really do the the cognitive part. So we’re mostly in higher ed and, um, uh, you know, our ambition is to go all the way to elementary at some point.

Jean : Right.

Alison : Because I think that would really help with the bullying situation. What you’re discussing.

Anne: Yeah…Because you just if you really engaged in arguments with people, um, and you’re thinking about the structure of what they’re saying at that level, um, you will, you will be, um, you will like them because they’re just another human being with a different point of view. And you’re looking at at something that isn’t the topic. It’s more how the topic is being addressed. Rest and you’d be shocked at how many people struggled to do that.

Alison : Really?

Anne: Yeah.

Alison :  they struggle with what though… they struggle with seeing each other as as just a human being with a different point of view?

Anne: I think so, but going back, I don’t think I was clear. I think the struggle is, uh, separating the the structure of the argument, the truth of the evidence, the strength of the inference. That’s an argument map from how the person feels about the topic, from the topic itself. So when we do a death penalty topic in an argument map, if people are against the death penalty, they can’t really enter the structure of the argument and say, whoa, this is a really good argument, even though it’s arguing for the death penalty. They can only slant to their point of view, and we really have to tutor them. No you’re not you’re not looking at the topic. You’re really looking at the structure of the argument. And that takes a lot of training.

Alison : Wow, that’s so interesting. Yeah, I kind of love that.

Jean : Do you think it’s it’s where does debate, the word debate come in to your field of study?

Anne: Yeah, we we’ve worked, you know, our, uh, when we started, some of our great, uh, graduates and undergraduates that worked with us were debaters because, they were naturally interested in arguments. But they are, um, do either of you have debaters in your or were you debaters?

Alison : Yes.

Anne: Um, I had great arguments with our world class debaters, um, about persuasion being a good thing or a bad thing. So if you’re trying to persuade someone, you might pull out all sorts of tactics to get them to believe what you think. Um, which is fine. That’s how good argue arguers work. But for students to think that winning is the end of an argument is not what we want to do. We want them to think that learning more about the topic. And both are right. It’s just two different goals. So yes, we’ve worked with debate and but it uh, yeah, but we’ve we uh, depart a tiny bit where our goal is for the skills. So the skills for us is to open your mind and the skills for them is to persuade, um, the win, that’s all..right.

Alison : Um, so how do you know? You said a minute, a little while ago. How do we know that news or facts that we have are the  truth? How do you know a reliable source…. Like I feel like now I’m inundated with, you know, very disparate things on what should be facts, and how do I know what’s reliable and what’s not.

Anne: Yeah, they’re really good um, resources for, uh, understanding whether or not your evidence is, uh, is true. Um, whether or not your facts are true. Um, I know Stanford has a really good program for high school students and college students to to help people. And I’m sure there’s startups doing that all the time because it’s a common problem. Um, and we could do argument maps saying, you know, where you’re checking your sources through one of those filters. Um, because that is very, very important. But I think really the, the hardest thing that we do that is people are not familiar with is the relevance of the claims, is the inference. Understanding how inference works is kind of the muscle of argumentation. That is how the one claim connects to another. Um, is the connection strong? Does it make sense? And a lot of bad arguments, um, and arguments that mislead people have bad inferences. They they just they’re not giving you something relevant, um, or untrue premises, untrue claims. But that’s kind of the, uh, we don’t do that truth finding because that’s a, that’s a whole skill in itself. And I’m sure there are lots of organizations that do that better than we do.

Alison : You watch the news?

Anne: Yep.

Alison : And so you watch the news or you read the news and so do you sit there and think to yourself, what.. Like do you argument map what you’re watching?

Anne: It’s hard to do with, uh, with the natural language. It’s hard to map something absolutely. But yes, I think about how their arguments are put together or how they leave things out is another problem to to give a slant. Even, you know, great media outlets do it, um, or throw things into this… You begin to be able to vet arguments and see tactics that people use, even in straight reporting. Yeah. Just to just so you have an angle. Um, I think what it did for me over all these years is look at my be able to reflect on my own assumptions about things and understand where my own, uh, biases set and, um, and just evaluate them more carefully. Yeah.

Jean : I remember my my husband would watch a lot of news. All sorts, not just one news station.

Anne: Yes, yes.

Jean : He was a great critical thinker, but he also would be very aware of when someone answered the question and when someone you know was really a pro at kind of.

Alison : Like finagled.

Jean : Finagled it and got out of the question or… Oh, I know you’re asking me about the budget, but I’m going to talk about immigration now. And, you know, he he was like, uh, he lost my vote… He should have answered the question because he…

Anne: That’s brilliant. Um, and I know he was brilliant, but that’s brilliant because that’s the best example I can think of, the most glaring example of weak inference, that is not connecting one thing to another with strength. You’re not connecting that question. You’re deflecting that question. So in a really broad sense, that’s a weak, that’s weak inference. And it really does enable, um, bias. And, you know, uh, just that kind of deflection is, is people are masterful at it. Um, but a lot of people don’t know how to read it. So once you understand the the importance of relevance, you can say, well, that wasn’t answering the question at all. Where did that come from? Um, and that’s a good disposition to have because then you can do that, you can be more critical, that’s critical thinking right there.

Alison : And we looked up, um, argument mapping, which my, my son had heard about, you know.

Anne: Oh, nice.

Alison : But but I had not really, and boy, it’s hard. It’s like not a ..it’s not like something you’re going to pick up today. You know it’s a…

Anne: Yeah it is really hard. What I am so proud of with the philosophers that I work with is they operate at such a high level, argument mapping is really hard, but they have distilled it in our course to the most basic elements. So really it’s just delivering a vocabulary and a way of thinking about arguments. And hot topics are in our course in a in a systematic way. So that’s I’m so glad you looked it up, because we, we do have debates about this when you can create your own argument map. You’re very you’re at a very high level of reasoning by the end of our course and the advanced content, you can do that. Um, but you’re still going to, it’s still going to be hard, like a math problem. Um, but yeah. And so what we do now, we use a lot of ready made maps just to give people training in how to think about an argument. I always tell people it’s like those books how things work.  Argument map is a great is a great tool for showing people how an argument works, kind of the mechanics of it, like a diagramming a sentence in grammar.

Jean : Right.

Alison : So if you’re going to do right now an argument map for dummies, could you give us an idea of because I’m, you know, I’m a little older than college age and I would love to learn and take away something from talking to you that I can actually perhaps use. Is there a way that you have something like that?

Anne: Um, we do. The best thing for me to do would be to send you a map to look at. Like to describe a map is not really doing it’s work. Um, so the best thing to do is to post a map, um, where you can see the lines and so on. And that’s what the course does… It’s a slow unfold of what a full map would look like with objections and co premises, which is where bias sits. Um, but it is a sequential course and it’s super condensed, super, super short for, for the skill that you get. Um, and the other thing I just have to say not as an advertisement but as an, as an element of our course, is that it’s done on that mastery learning so that students have to practice and then pass a check, a mastery check, demonstrate the skill, and then they move on and they have to pass the mastery check it in 90%, which is really hard.

Alison : Yeah.

Anne: Student after student after student is able to do this because they have to learn it. So they do. It’s a little bit Khan Academy uses that kind of technique. Um, so, uh, I’m trying to think so, if you said, um, the the death penalty, um, the death penalty should be banned. Okay. And then you set your, your inference line. What do you think a supporting idea would be for– if you were saying to me, you know what? The death penalty should be banned.

Jean : Um.

Alison : I guess I guess I, I guess the things that come into my mind is, um, it cost too much money. It’s cruel. It’s sort of like, uh, do what I say, not what I do, you know?

Anne: So that’s three. Yes. And if a philosopher were doing this with us, they would put these…. You gave me three reasons. Um, down below with the inference line. And then they would ask you to– they would flesh out some of those, um, they would ask you questions about them to make them far more specific. But it costs too much money would be, you know, that’s that’s a pretty strong reason you’d have to have a source for that and evidence for that. But, um, and that would be the inference line would lead to that would lead to that reason.

Alison : That’s interesting.

Anne: And, you know,  it is technical. But all I can say is these people are like magicians. They’re so good at it, that they can take it to its absolute bare bones to teach anyone how to do it. And only an expert can do that. I couldn’t do it. I’m not a philosopher.

Jean : Anne,  can like Alison and I take a class. Or is it…?

Anne: Yeah. You can. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So, we’re a nonprofit. I think you know that. Um, and but we we do charge, uh, students to take it. It’s below what we have to pay out, but, um, and I can just send you the link, and you can actually register as an instructor and take the course, poke around on the course. Take the course. Um, I don’t even think you have to pay right now, but we’re we’re in the midst of not only refashioning it, but getting AI integrated so it can help students. It can bring students through the critical thinking process. We want to make AI a really positive force. Um, we’re working with the professors doing a study on that this year. So, um, so I’m really happy to have you look at it and see it as it transforms.

Alison : But our listeners also look at it.

Anne: Absolutely. Anyone can pick it up and take it, uh, soon available on, you know, Barnes and Noble websites and things like that.

Alison : We’re so excited when we jump on each other. Go ahead..

Jean : I want to know, Anne… Do you do anything with the body or breathwork to help ground someone? Or do you really leave that alone?

Anne: We do not do that. I think in in our space, we just have so much respect for the people who do things well. Um, and so there I, my sister today is talking to someone in the mindfulness space. And as I said before, if people could enter a room where there’s going to be disagreement and do some kind of preparation of the body… Um, because I think the intellect and the body are so much more intertwined than we think. Yeah. Um, I, I, I’m excited about learning or making those partnerships happen because I’m, I’m a deep believer in that. Uh, just the physical the, the connection between the physical and the cognitive is just so important. So I’m I’m grateful for the question, and, um  i can’t wait to hear what my sister says. This woman that she’s talking to, uh in DC is, uh, she’s in that she does mindfulness with, um, primary school, elementary school kids. I’m  just so curious, because I don’t think it would be any different for people our age….i think we’re all we’re all needing some help in that, in that place.

Alison : I totally I totally agree with you. I’m interested in AI, you know, um, uh, I, I’m an actor also, and so AI has a lot of different, um, uh, things happening on the acting front that are frightening to an actor, you know? And so I’m wondering just from from this, is is AI…. Do you think I is thinking?

Jean : Um, that’s a very big philosophical question. Yeah. Um, and AI will get better and better and better. And the great and good luck that I’ve had is that our tech lead was an undergraduate, um, when I was working at Harvard, and he is a philosophy major, but he was, he’s a computer scientist, and he has been able to keep us at the edge of technology through our development… and that’s almost ten years.

Alison : Wow.

Anne:  He’s an expert in AI. I hope you interview him sometime. Stacy just interviewed him. He is a superstar because of his heart. He has an incredible….  he wants to make the world better, um, with technology. And he actually has a mind to do that. So he’s the one that is shepherding us through this AI, um, development. And so he knows we all know that calling it thinking is dangerous…. Um, and but we also know that anything new like this is going to cause a lot of angst, but it is probably inevitable. So trying to find its best iteration, its best self, is what we can do for people in the future. Um, so I don’t know. Again, I feel like I’m…. I guess it’s a podcast, but I feel like I’m talking a lot.

Alison : No, you’re so fascinating.

Anne: It’s about these people I’m working with are truly fascinating. Um, but what he thinks and what he is going to try to do with this professor is to make AI a coach for, um, pushing critical those critical thinking muscles. Um, and so it’s not going to be something where you spew a question and grab content. It’s going to be more of an interaction. Um, and that’s a little scary because it feels a little more human. Yeah. Like the machine is a human. On the other hand, if it can do that and if it can make people better critical thinkers, uh, that’s probably a good thing. So, um, but I hear you. It’s it’s intimidating.

Alison :   It has very serious implications on many levels. And serious is just meaning serious. Not like…

Anne: Yes. No. Yeah.

Alison : You know, what’s interesting is when you’re talking about, um, uh, critical thinking and discussions, I feel like my parents and grandparents were really good at talking with people that were very different than them, and then being able to eat dinner, like, then being able to go take a walk, like there wasn’t what’s happening now, which is like emotionally violent and sometimes physically violent. What happened?

Anne: I think… I hate to, I’m just not an expert in it. I think there are many, many more people in the world. So people are are around many more people.

Alison : Oh, that’s a good point.

Anne: I that’s the only thing and technology. Um, but that’s just written about and written about and written about. I think, um, some of the really interesting research is about attention span. So one of the, you know, just the, the byproduct or the collateral damage of technology is having no attention span. Um, you really do need to do good argumentation and listen to people and not storm away. I’m sure that Covid probably hurt a lot of just human to human interaction, um, and learning. So, I do think it’s a whole bunch of things. I think in history, these there are other times that have been like this, uh, and I yeah, I hesitate just because I don’t want to sound cliche or expert on it. I just…

Alison : No, we’re just interested, you know.

Anne: I know, I agree. I’m interested too.

Jean : What you just said about attention span. I even notice for myself because I spend more time on the computer than I like. And and it’s like, hurry up, hurry…. It’s like I have this motor in my brain. Quick, quick, go to this page. Flip over here. Go back here. And I don’t think that’s so great for us. And do you have any tips on how to strengthen our ability to focus?

Anne: This is just me. I’m a career educator. I think schools are going to become one of the most important spots for that kind, for any kind of work. I think they’re going to look very different. There’s going to be much more coaching and online learning, where you can bring in experts online to give you content and kind of motivation, motivation and great teaching skills. But it’s going to be we’re going to be teaching different things. We’re going to be teaching attention span, for example. And I think mastery learning is one of the great ways of doing that. It’s been around since the 70s. But if you can’t complete something until you show that you can do the skills, you’re absolutely forced to have the attention span to complete the different lessons. And when you if you do the course, even a few lessons, you’ll see why you have to practice and get a streak before you can move on. Then you you move on to another skill and you have to practice until you get a streak. So it’s kind of gamified. And then finally you take this mastery check that’s really hard. And most students whip through them and they get like a 60%, even if they’re brilliant and they’re curious.

Anne: They’re so mad. Our chat explodes with emojis. And why is it 90%? And it’s because they they won’t take their time and just plod through and get the skills. So the way that we’re going to, we’re going to have to give people exercises, students exercises that extend their attention spans. And what you said, maybe part of your being anxious is that you’re you know, you shouldn’t… this is, I’m speaking for me… I know I shouldn’t be doing that, but I’m going Instacart, uh, what can I get on? I mean, it’s unbelievable what I can do. Uh, in in a span of three minutes, I’ve been to 60 sites and gotten nowhere, and I know I shouldn’t be doing it. So that builds anxiety in people, I think, especially in our age group. But, um, yeah, there’s a lot of great. Do you know Jonathan Height? So and he has research on attention span, and they’re just saying, it is going to be the single most important thing for people to have coming out of their educations because of what’s working against us.

Jean : Yeah.

Anne: So I think there’s going to be very good training in extending your attention span… Thinker analytics– that mastery learning makes that happen.

Jean : Right. Excellent.

Alison : That’s you know, you are so.. I was a little afraid because, I thought this woman’s going to not be able to, like, deal with me..  (lots of people over talking on each other)……

Anne: I haven’t online shopped once during our whole conversation.  hahah I have to say though, I’m so grateful to talk to people who are excited about, um, just changing things in a really positive way. And that’s the sense I get from your website, like just opening it,  i feel really, um you’re just doing great work.

Alison : Well, so are you… I’m really interested. If you send us that link, we’ll include it in.  You’re fascinating. We just have two quick wrap up questions. What do you think inside wink means?

Anne: So as a former English teacher, I did think about these questions. I saw them in the email. Um, a wink is a gesture. Um, gestures are famous and famous moments in literature…. certain gestures… and I thought, wow, a wink has to do with insider understanding and, uh, humor. And it’s fast. A wink is so fast and so subtle. Um, and all of those things combined with inside, uh, I just thought it was, um, fun… and asking people to look interior, uh, and to think the interior, um, but in a kind of playful way. So I don’t know what it means, but I, I love I love it.

Alison : Yes. You’re right.

Anne: Oh, wow. Oh, good. I love it.

Jean : And you expressed it so beautifully.

Anne: Thank you. I know that I had fun, I went to the etymology of the word, like I did with argument. I was like, wow, what is a wink? And it’s a it’s pretty fun to go look at all the different… Where the wink.

Alison : You’re you’re wild. You’re amazing.

Jean : So in your in your world. And do you prefer cake, pie or ice cream?

Anne: That’s such a layup. I so prefer pie to any of those things.  I love pie. I love fruit, I love lemon meringue.  I don’t know why… I think it’s a texture thing… different textures in it.

Jean : Mhm.

Alison : Yeah.

Anne: For you all, and why do you ask that question? I’m really curious. I know we’re over time but…

Alison : No it’s fine.

Jean : It’s just a fun kind of… This is just we’re ending with dessert and…

Alison : And it’s funny, you get these very serious people talking sometimes, and then when we ask that question, you see a different side.

Anne: I’m sure. I’m sure. Yeah.

Alison : So people talk about their grandmas or bakeries or delis they like, you know, it’s fun.

Anne: You should keep a journal and figure out the patterns. That would be so interesting. Um, yeah, it’s a great question, I love it.

Jean : I think we get a lot of pies

Alison : Yeah, we get a lot of pies.

Jean : I think pie is the….

Alison : It’s something homey or something people…

Anne: And it’s hard.. If you’re a baker. It’s hard to make

Jean : Yes.

Anne: Oh my God…It’s just hard to make.

Jean : When they say easy as pie… I’m always like…you make a lemon meringue pie.

Anne:  yeah, you did that.    Indeed. I agree with you. So I appreciate a good pie for sure.

Alison : And thank you so, so much for your time.

Anne: This was really fun and I hope I just didn’t ramble ramble, ramble.

Alison : No, no.

Anne: You’re very patient.

Alison : Oh, you’re so interesting.

Anne: Yeah, well. Thank you.

Jean : Thank you, Anne.

Anne: All right. Take care.

Alison : Bye

Jean : Wow…I had really no idea what we were going to be talking about. And I did a little bit, but I really enjoyed that conversation.

Alison : I was kind of amazed because she’s so interesting, and what you just said coming up the stairs, living, talking about, living like a different life than me. Like she’s a different type of person. Like just her thinking in the way she speaks and all the knowledge. Like, I have good stuff going on and her good stuff is very different and interesting to me, right?

Jean : I don’t know about that. Alison, you, I, I consider you a very good, solid thinker.

Alison : Really?

Jean : Yeah I do. And I think, um, the questions you ask, I think she really appreciated them. And, um, I don’t, you know, I, I admire people that can think on their feet, ask great questions. It takes me a little more time. So it’s sort of like I feel like I missed the boat. But people that that are quick and and well, you know, don’t take it personally, but let’s, let’s look under the hood a little bit.

Alison : And I think..well Thank you. And I think that what my takeaways from this, if I, if I never looked it up at all ever again would be, be aware of your bias.

Jean : Sure.

Alison : Be aware of your bias. Be aware of your expectation when you’re meeting someone or listening to the news. And also remember curiosity because I thought what she said about, um, you’re really not looking at the message like you’re not looking at whether or not you agree on the death penalty should be or not be…. That’s not what it’s about. But is the person where’s the person coming from? Is it factual? I think that’s really interesting because then we would just be people with different ideas. It wouldn’t be so heated.

Jean : Yeah, I love I love that you said that. And I, I think also when she said like, just you don’t just okay, you someone says something and you believe it. Like you don’t have to disagree with it, but you can just sort of right.

Alison : Be an attention span. Yeah, I’m aware of that, that my attention span, you know, I’m taking pottery now and I realize I’m like, oh, just make the pot go make it like it like my patience has lessened than, than years ago. And I wonder if that is technology or age or just life. But I really want to get back to being thoughtful and listening and have some patience.

Jean : Yeah. Me too. And for me, I like going out in the garden or being in nature kind of just slows everything down and helps recalibrate that electronic doo doo doo. Quick, quick, quick. Um. And I don’t know, i think, however, you kind of calm your nervous system down is really beneficial.

Alison : Yeah. Really fascinating. Thank you so much. And I think your analytics and we’ll include the link that she sends to you if you’re interested. And if not, just, you know, be curious.

Jean : I love that. Yeah.

Jean : Be curious. Right.

Alison : Be aware of your bias. Really great. I hope we hope you enjoyed it.

Jean : Bye bye.

Alison : Here we are on an adventure.

Jean: We’re on an adventure with Kathleen Noone.

Alison : That’s right. This is one of our…. Well, I think you’ve known her the longest of all of us, right? Because you were… Were you? Was she in your foundations class at church?

Jean: No, no. But, uh, I did meet Kathleen at the church, and we became great friends. And we still are. I love her so much. She’s not only a friend, but a mentor and just a beautiful person inside and out.

Alison : And I met her through you. And, uh, she is so wonderful. And she is like a really great, well known actor. But it’s not like she’s stuck in that past incarnation of herself. Like when I met her, I was like, hey, you look so familiar. She’s like, yeah, I did some stuff on TV, like, do you know what I mean? Like, she was just so you know, I did All My Children. And then when, um, I had my birthday party and she was there, my friends were like, I can’t believe you sat me at Kathleen Noon’s table. Like they were so excited. You know, we have such good friends.

Jean: We do, we do. And and one of the things that’s so great about Kat is that she’s so grounded in her devotion and in her faith in the universal intelligence.

Alison : Well, let’s let’s give her a listen. Yeah, let’s listen to her.

Jean: Let’s?

Alison : Let’s let’s do it.

Kathleen : I’m so excited. This is so great, guys. It’s so great to see you both. And I love your haircut, allison, you got it. Cut.

Alison : You look beautiful.

Jean: You look stunning, Kathleen.

Kathleen : Uh, well, you know what you need to do. Write that down 100 times.

Alison : That’s true. I have so many of those things written. Kathleen looks beautiful.

Kathleen : Okay. You know, Jean did that once for me 100 times.

Jean: I took a card and I wrote… You are… What did I write? You are beautiful. A hundred times or something?

Alison : That’s so great. I love that. We’re so happy that you’re here talking to us on insidewink, Kat. You are like one of our dearest, bestest friends ever. And, um, we just wanted to talk a little bit, like, about your acting career and then where you are now.

Kathleen : No, no.

Alison : And we’re done.

Kathleen : Curtain.

Alison : That’s right. You, you played on All My Children.

Kathleen : Oh, God. Yes.

Alison : Ellen. Ellen, right?

Kathleen : Yes, I did that for 11.5 years.

Alison : And people still… I’ve been with you in public where people still come up to you and talk about it.

Kathleen : That amazes me. That just amazes me. I can hardly remember at this age. But no, I am thrilled. I had a gal the other day, Jen, who works for the Motion Picture Association. She kind of she runs it and, uh, she was passing me in front of the big five and she said, oh my God, Kathy. And I said, yes. Oh my goodness. And she said, I gotta tell you something. What is it? She said many years ago, and we’re talking about 20, 25 years ago she said, whenever I saw you always brought such light and calmed me down. She was just starting her career. And I go, isn’t it amazing how you touch people’s lives in our professions, which whatever they are, and there’s something beyond ourselves, small selves, that somehow permeates somebody in a way that they need…. That’s so extraordinary to me. And that’s happened a lot on All My Children. When I was doing these scenes with the wonderful and late Mark Lamura on drug addiction. And we went through a whole process of the rehabilitation and the confrontational scenes. And in all humility, they were some of the most strongest scenes I’ve ever done. But it was the gift. It gave me the gift of an Emmy Award. And that came and people would write in and say, oh my God, I was on the way to going to a, um, uh, pick up some more drugs on the street. And I always watch All My Children.

Alison : Wow.

Kathleen : And I saw that scene and it stopped me, and I went, wow.

Jean: Yeah.

Kathleen : Of the things that we if we give ourselves and we each get to be of service in a different way, and it was always important to me to be of service no matter what I did, you know, even in our crazy professions, Alison.

Alison : What attracted you to acting, do you think? Kat. Like what?

Kathleen : Survival… I had family.

Jean: Because I read that you wanted to be a singer?  What did you..

Kathleen : That’s what I started out as.  Doing singing. Um, But  I’m talking where I was a kid. That’s how I started in choirs. And then I started doing musical comedies, that kind of thing, which were great fun. But what I discovered is that the musicals that I love so much didn’t give me the depth in acting that I wanted. I knew how to sell a song. I knew how to get out on stage and razzmatazz and bring the energy up. But I thought, what am I doing? What’s what’s behind all of this? So that’s when I applied. I was in I started graduate school and I applied to go to USM in Dallas, Texas, and um, I was accepted, but I had $50 to my name and, uh, I went down there on a wing in a prayer.  A wing and a prayer, but also because this is the combination of me following my instincts. Something inside my heart was telling me to do this. As scared as I was, I kept putting one foot in front of the other. Went down there, um, was introduced to the head of the department. Mr. Hobgood was his name, he said, welcome, you’ll start your classes. I said, no, you don’t seem to understand. I don’t have any money to go to school. But I thank you for accepting me. He coughed and he sputtered a bit and he said, well, you know, when you save money you will have to then come back. I mean, the door will be open for you. I said, thank you very much. I stepped outside the department and I thought, now what do I do? Well, in my head, I’m supposed to be here. I went out and started to look for an apartment, which I couldn’t afford.

Alison : Wow.

Kathleen : So I thought, just keep moving forward. I was staying over at a friend’s house and I stayed overnight. Next morning I got up and I said, okay, what am I supposed to do here? And I got get yourself dressed and go back over to that department.

Jean: Wow.

Kathleen : I walked myself over there. I stood in the center of the room, and because they had all these, they were building a new theater. So I stood in the center of this room were all these teacher’s desks were. And I’m saying to myself, I’m not moving till I know what to do. And at that moment Hobgood comes out of his office and he sees me, and he says, you come over here. I said, okay. I marched myself over there thinking, Oh God. And he said, one of our graduate students decided not to return. We’re giving you his full scholarship and a monthly stipend.

Alison : That’s amazing. Yeah.

Kathleen : I mean, I’ve had moments like that all through my life, and they got me where I needed to go for the next step in my career.

Alison : Right.

Kathleen : You know, so even to when it was time to finish it, you know, as I got older and, uh, the jobs weren’t coming as quickly because I was getting older and, and, uh, they were moving on to other people and I thought, well, what are you going to do about this? Well, I sat and I thought about it, and I happened to go down to hear, uh, Michael Beckwith at Agape, which is a spiritual center here in Los Angeles. And my friend Cynthia James was singing there… And, um, I ran up to her and I said, how you doing? I said, tell me about this school, SMU, in Santa Monica. Uh, I mean, USM, University of Santa Monica. And she said it’ll be the best gift you can give to yourself. So I thought, like, an hour on it, and I got that hunch to apply. I was already a week late to enroll in the program for that year, but I called them. They said, get your transcripts in. We have a make up class this Thursday. It’s exactly what I did. I was working on another show at the time. I think it was Sunset Beach for Aaron Spelling, and, um, I was accepted in two days. I went down there and went back and got this other master’s degree in spiritual psychology, which was exactly the right thing for me to do at that point in my life. At that point, I think I was 50, 55 around there. And, uh, I thought I got to do this to make that transition. As I’m getting older, because the business isn’t kind to older women and as many as the breakthroughs as have been made for women over the past five years or so, as far as advancement in producing and directing and all of that.

Kathleen : Uh, at my time when I was doing this, there was a lot of help out there for women, and there wasn’t a lot of support, even from each other. Yeah. You know, so I felt as though, okay, I got to transition my life again, but this time I wanted to make it about a deepening in my own learning because I thought, I don’t want to go into the latter years of my life feeling any kind of disappointment or bitterness, or I haven’t cleaned my own house, you know? I don’t want those things lagging on because they can just eat me apart. I am just a highly sensitive person, uh, being trained as an actor, i’m emotional and I thought, you have got to have command of yourself better, in a better way and keep that. What we learn in spiritual circles, that witness that distance saves your life. You know that. We get it. I know, Allison, you’ve experienced the highs and lows, the ups and downs, the yes, the no’s. And many times there’s more nos than there are yes’, and I feel so, i have to teach myself to say yes to myself. And in doing that, uh, it’s still a learning process, but I said yes to learning in the consciousness of my spiritual growth. Always been my saving grace. No matter what show I was doing, you know.

Alison : wait. Are you saying that you’ve always felt this way all through?

Kathleen : Yeah.

Alison : Wow.

Kathleen : Since I was a kid, I always had some kind of calling from spirit to, I guess, the way I describe it, that keeps nudging me forward, you know? And sometimes, you know, I’m not reading it right. And I go, so where are you?

Alison : Yeah, yeah.

Kathleen : Hello? Do you hear me now?

Alison : Yeah.

Jean: Because how you addressed going to the university and not having, uh, the money and that’s— you were attuned to listening to to your inner, to that still small voice. And most of us have not been raised to do that.

Kathleen : Yes. I, I don’t think any of us are. Yeah. I’m sorry to make that blanket statement, but in reality, it’s a whole different learning line because I can see how we are all distracted by the world. Yeah. You know, I was recently at an airport, and I’m telling you to see the mass of humanity all, um, attracted by the glitters. Yeah. Well, let me look here and there and do this and do that and…. Oh, now I have to get on a plane. Now I have to do this. And I thought, what a microcosm this is.

Alison : Yeah, yeah.

Kathleen : To see, you know, how we are all caught up in that. Because the world being in the world demands it. You know, if I, I don’t know what you think about that, but I just feel we have to be disciplined within ourselves to say, wait a minute. Stop the world. I want to get off for a little while and see who I am again. And I hope people will take that chance to do that and respect it and know it’s okay, because the Universe has got our back. Yes, I really believe that.

Jean: And you have to trust that. Yeah, and really, really trust that and have, uh, and you do. And you did. And you do now, Kathleen. You know, your life is a beautiful reflection of your inner knowingness and your love and  everything — because you you feel very grounded. You feel benevolent, you feel and you are wise, you know, and, um.

Kathleen : Thank you. Thank you. Well, I think I stay on the learning line. That’s the one thing I– it is about controlling the mind from being sucked in to fear thoughts from, uh, you know, when you’re in an atmosphere, as we are now as a nation and in a world where there’s a lot of fear out there, we see a lot of pictures of that fear. If you ever watch television or even see the movies because they keep demonstrating the fear. And I think to myself, well, where is the message of hope? So we got a slight one with the election of the new pope, who seems to be a person of grace and intelligence and really on the ground as far as the previous pope, uh, for being of service and being a consciousness of service. You know, just as the Dalai Lama and many other spiritual leaders. But I thought, okay, let’s keep this ray of hope that we have now to move forward in some way. And but that requires me to control my thoughts, to really whenever I hear, you know, frightening thoughts for myself, I go, particularly as I’m getting older. I find myself really attaching to a mantra. You know, I am in the center spirit. I’m living in grace. I’m creative, you know. Where do you want my creativity now? Universal force. I keep those mantras- Ram, RAM, RAM, RAM, going because it gets my mind off the fear thoughts.

Alison : Yeah.

Kathleen : Because in reality, the things I’ve observed, when am I really not taken care of? And I think that’s part of my role here now. Um, and this is a grace for all of us. I think as we get older. I may not be able to, you know, get on the stage and do performances and do all of that About anymore, but I sure can support the creative efforts of the people around me. I sure can, every single day, no matter what I’m doing, I allow myself to keep a consciousness and an energy field of love to every person I pass. Every person I interact with. And I have had to make a big change to realize that my way forward is not to be the one performing and letting that energy be where I teach through people for certain plays or roles that I’ve done. But it’s more of an inner knowing, an inner energy and let that energy do the work I’m supposed to just show up in kindness? Loving kindness as  Ram Dass says. Just be in loving kindness. And that’s that’s a real lesson for each of us, don’t you feel?

Alison : Oh, yes.

Jean: Yes, Kathleen.

Alison : Oh my gosh. And it’s amazing to me to hear you and know your past and see that you did not get caught up in all the glamour, glitter, uh, competition, anger, fear of the profession that you were very successful in.

Kathleen : Well, when I was younger, I did– I was more fearful and well, I remember being at an audition for the equity lead back in New York City, and I was sitting in the waiting room, and there’s a girl sitting next to me, and, you know, you sit there with your picture and resume and there’s a girl sitting next to me, and she was looking like, Like this. And she started to lean in, and she then started to write on a piece of the back of her resume some of the things that I had on my resume.

Alison : Wow.

Kathleen : Isn’t that interesting. You know, we were like 27, 28. And at that time I had because I worked in a lot of repertory companies prior to that. So I had something on my resume, and I thought the problem with that is she’s going to go in there, and what if they say, oh, tell me about that play you did, and she never did it. And what a perfect example of all of us in the feminine, not knowing who we are and letting that fear control us and think I’m not enough. Well, who she was, who she was, who I am, who you each are is really enough from the beginning. But I didn’t know that. And maybe that was part of my learning. I had to keep on, I can do this role, i can prove it. I always prepared well, worked very hard, tried to make whatever I did good. Sometimes I failed, sometimes I made it, you know, um, and to live with those both sides of that edge of performance is a challenge. Yeah, but it teaches you toughness against your fears.

Alison : Yeah. Mhm.

Kathleen : You know what I’m saying.

Jean: Yeah. Yeah.

Kathleen : So I think this was the right profession for me, I’m glad I did it. Um even before I did this I went on line to look at my own website to see what are the things I’ve done??   I thought, oh my God, you really had a career.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean: It was wonderful reading about you, Kat. And I feel like I know you so well, and I was like, oh my goodness.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean: Um, while we’re, we’re talking about, you know, spirituality and everything. Can you share with our listeners, um, your meeting with Muktananda? Because I feel that that pearl of wisdom that he offers you, that he says to you is is so helpful.

Kathleen : Oh, thank you. Thank you for that. Yes. I, um, uh, was in New York City, and the way it started out was I was a rainy morning in New York City. I wanted to get a spiritual book. So I lived in the Upper West Side. I went down to, um, the village, and I thought, I really gotta find a store that’s going to have a good spiritual book, you know? And so I just started walking the streets down there, uh, 14th Street, I got off, I got up, walked a couple of blocks, turned, just turned right again my instinct. And there in front of me, about 100ft was a sign. Books. And it was in the basement of a brownstone. So I thought, oh, right up my alley. Got in there, walked inside, was looking around. And this guy with a big gray hair walked over to me and looked at me. And I said, he says, can I help you? And I said, yes, I’m looking for a good spiritual book. And so he says to me, hmm. And he looks at me and he looks at me and he looks at me, and I’m going getting a little uncomfortable, you know. So he says to me, I got just the book. So he, um, goes over there, stands, comes back with a book called, uh, The Miracle of Love. It was a book on Baba Neem Karoli, and I take it and go home. As I’m sitting in my bed at night getting ready, propped up, all ready to read my book… Um, and I’m reading the book, and I turn one particular page. Chapter nine. Saw this picture of Baba Neem Karoli –  Ram Dass, teacher, and I got a lightning bolt that went from the top of my head down to the base of my spine and back up again, and I was gone. I was out of my body. Came back about 15 minutes later, looked at the time and it said 15 minutes had gone by and I was in a state of ecstasy. I went, oh, this is good. May I have the privilege of meeting an enlightened being this time on earth? This time around, because he already passed. Three days later, I’m being interviewed… Uh, I was on All My Children at the time, by Joan Goldstein. And I start to talk to her about this, and she says, oh my goodness, she says, Muktananda is in town. I said, who? And she said, Muktananda. Oh, she says, well, they have an ashram up on 86th Street. Guess where I was that night? I was over at 86th Street and they said, they’re having a weekend retreat. Guess where I was? I finished shooting on Thursday. Friday morning I’m up there and I’m standing on the Darshan line. Joan is guiding me and she’s talking to me–  and a Darshan is when you go down in front of the guru and you bow out of respect and just say hello…That’s all it is. So I’m there. I’m on my knees. I take my bow and Joan says to me, I’m going to tell him you’re on television. And I said, oh, God, do not tell him that. That is nothing. I’m in front of the guru. What the hell are you doing? I don’t know what’s going on here. I’m singing mantras, I never heard anything, so I am on my way down… I hear her say this and I’m thinking, oh, God, I’m in such trouble. I come back up and he looks at me and he does this, points his finger at me and beckons me to come to him. So I on my knees, I scoot over and he takes my hand and he looks into my eyes and he gave me a great lesson. And it was this –  don’t you understand, that if it’s not important to you, why would it be important to me? It sounds like a simple phrase, but the energy of that Truthful, authentic moment hit me right here. Knocked me back on my heels and I went, oh my God. I got one of the greatest lessons in false humility I could ever have gotten, because he’s teaching us everything you have and are is a gift from the spirit. Celebrate it..  let it be who you are, you know?

Kathleen : And so that was, I think, a road for me to follow as far as opening up, not out of arrogance, because I always believed whatever  talents I have were a gift, were a gift. Even the shows that I didn’t do as well or their performances I didn’t like. They were all a gift to me in my learning, my growth and my learning how to be at one with spirit in my creativity, you know, to get out of the way. And I had several performances, particularly on the stage, in one on television, where I got out of my way and I felt it. And the interesting thing is, when I walked off the stage and finished the performance, other actors and people would come up to me and say, boy, your performance tonight was just extraordinary. And I said, I know I had nothing to do with it. hahah I got out of my way. I got out of my way and let that energy flow through. And I don’t think in our society we are patient with that, in giving each other that chance to have it. You know what it’s like, Allison, when you’re on a set and you you got to get the scene in, you know? So you got to hope you’re doing everything right. Whereas on the stage you have more leeway. You really do. And sometimes when you’re up and you’re speaking, I know the two of you have had that opportunity to speak in front of people, and there are times when you just feel the flow is working. And that’s always been the carrot at the end of the stick for me. Yeah. Having those experiences because I had the blessing of having them because I met spirit and said yes. Then opening up like that just allows this newness to come to me. And sometimes I catch it, sometimes I don’t. So I’m giving it again. You know, I find different ways to work it through.

Alison : That’s such a beautiful story. Because you’re right, it does sound really easy, right? But so many times that I think I diminish myself or things or I say, oh, you don’t want, you know, oh, it just was this or it just like I kind of… And I do that hand wave, you know. Yeah.

Jean: It’s like pushing, pushing the energy away of receiving something like.

Alison : oh, It’s not a big deal. Yeah, I think that’s such a great lesson. And you’re right. It’s not an arrogance.

Kathleen : No, it’s in humility of allowing.

Alison : Right.

Kathleen : Allowing that spirit to use you as a channel for whatever you’re going to do. And listen, there’s a lot of people out there…. And I remember when I started to talk about this, when I was on All My Children, and I was doing some interviews with some other actors from different shows, And this one actor really came after me. On air, you know. Well, aren’t you special getting all this? It’s a little much. I’m just doing my job. And I thought, that’s you. This is me, you know? And when I learned is I have to be discerning. I can speak to you, but recently, I have recognized that for all of us, we’re all being asked in this time of conflict to step forward. And don’t be afraid to speak of our divine feminine expression, which is what this is a part of. I feel you know that channel.

Alison : Yeah.

Kathleen : Giving and receiving.

Alison : What do you think? When do you feel right now in your life, your most honest, authentic self?

Kathleen : Well, I set an intention every day, my soul, to be authentically living in the energy of wisdom. You know, because I want to learn. I don’t want to leave this earth thinking, oh, God, I got to come back and do this again. No. Although next time I come back, I’d rather be an astrophysicist. Very creative.  hahah

Kathleen : And so, um, because the study of the stars and the cosmos teach me about spirit, you know. So, my intention is to try and stay in that authentic soul every day. But I had to learn that it was okay for me to speak up about who I am. And I’m still learning that. And I’m glad. I’m glad because you want to be discerning, and I want to be discerning and express myself in an authentic way. But I never want to offend somebody, you know? You know, that’s not my role. But what I learned is the stronger I stand up in my truth and follow that truth wherever I am, that keeps me healthy and whole, you know? And because of that, I feel more support in my life. And I have garnered people around me looking at you two. Um, who support my exploration without judgment. But you give me so much love to keep going. That is important for me because I don’t feel I had a lot of that in my life. You know, that kind of outward support. And I just accepted it and muscled my way through. At my age right now, it’s not about muscling my way through life. It’s about inspiring my way through life. And that’s the way I want to live now.

Alison : That’s beautiful.

Jean: And you do.

Alison : You definitely do.

Kathleen : Thank you.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison : It’s not even about age… That’s a great thing to hear at any age. That to be an inspiration to someone as opposed to muscling through is such a beautiful way to look at life.

Kathleen : Oh, yes. But, you know, and we all did this, I think because we all it cost us, you know, I had that mindset that I had to muscle my way through or one, you could fail or, you could be decimated, or you could be on your knees. And I’ve been on my knees, but I got myself up, you know, through certain incidences in my life. Uh, but what always brought me through, and that’s why I had to have a switch in my thinking, what always brought me through was my inner communication with that place of authenticity within me, which is loving, you know? And then I had the opportunity to look back and say, wait a minute, look at all those times that were extraordinarily challenging. You did come through them. I was not to leave this Earth. So you’re here now. What is next that you can do to bring grace and ease and be of service in somebody’s life. But now it’s the heart energy that makes that happen. Not, oh, I’ll do that, you know, I’ll straighten you out.

Alison : Right.

Kathleen :  oh my God. But you don’t, you know, you don’t do it out of arrogance. You’re doing it because you want to be of help, you know. And I’m looking at two beautiful souls right now who carry that with them all the time, as you do in your own ways. You do that. So that’s a grace.

Alison : I think I think the thing you taught me, Kat, um, was you can caretake other people, but not at your own expense.

Kathleen : Yes.

Jean: That’s so beautiful.

Alison :  I think you have definitely taught me that to just love myself through caretaking and loving other people, I don’t know, go down to the bone looking out for others when you’re, like, crawling along the sidewalk, you know?

Kathleen : That’s right you’re you’re not helping anybody. And you’re also showing, you know, your daughters, sons, whatever, how to do that in a respectful way to yourself and still be of great help to them. Because I truly believe in all our teaching and I love to teach and do things like that. But I find that our greatest lessons is how we each behave. Yeah. No matter what situation we’re in. Even when I was doing more performing and I was working with a particularly challenging actor, I thought, take a breath…. this person is going through some stuff. Get your way through, and if it gets too out of hand, then I will just have a conversation with the director and say, I just want you to know what’s going on, and I’m doing my best to work with it. That’s all you can do. You know?

Jean: I think for me, Kat, that was one of the things that I’ve picked up from you is, is having a really great attitude. And I feel when you say to me, oh, Jeanie, we’re going to go have an adventure. Yeah. It’s already like you’ve set us up for success.

Alison : Yeah!

Jean: No matter what!  you say that to me, and and I think to myself… That’s so great. And, um, I’m going to have an adventure today. Like, I love that because that kind of takes the burden off of life to coming from a –I have to get this done and get this done. I mean, there are many things we all have to get done, but if we have a really good attitude, I think that serves us. So I, I love that.

Kathleen : And you know, it. It brings out the best in the people that you meet. And I had that realization the other day going into a doctor’s office, and they got the parking attendant had said, um, uh, to me after I got out of the car and he said, so where are you going? The heart center? And I said, yes, I am, and I was feeling positive about it. He said, oh, I wish you well. And I thought, that’s where our angels show up during the day. People that you don’t know, he was in tune enough to say, where are you going, here.

Alison : Yeah.

Kathleen : And I told them authentically and he said, oh, well, I hope it all works out. I said, thank you. I know it will. And I went on, you know, and I just thought, it’s all around us. Our support is all around us. If we can look at it that way, you know, and not as you talked about, Alison, you know, being trapped into the burdens of and the distractions of life, of everybody pulling on you. You know what’s my center? And that’s why I think the practice of deep breathing is so important. When you’re in those moments of going, too many people get back to the breath, and as you get back to the breath, it gets you back to your center. I mean, you can look around and see where the graces are around you, even if it’s a dog jumping on your lap right at that moment, or you see a flower or me seeing hummingbirds. Whatever it is, you’re more attuned to where the support is all around us. And sometimes, and this is going to sound far out when I’m, you know, think I’m really lost somewhere. I look up and I see the trees either out the window or if I’m walking and all the branches are going almost like a wave.

Alison : Yeah.

Kathleen : And I go, look at that energy, honey, I’m walking down this street in goodness

Jean: Yeah, that is so great.

Alison : Kat, you’re great.

Jean: You’re so vivacious and beautiful.

Kathleen : Thank you. This is such a, um, a heart privilege to do this. Thank you. Thank you both.

Alison : Thank you so much.

Jean: Yeah, we are so grateful… Kathleen, to spend some time with you. And, um, we want to also know,  what does inside wink mean to you?

Kathleen : Oh, means you and me, babe. It’s between us. I got the goods. You got the goods, and we’re sharing it.

Alison : You’re so sassy. You really are. Yeah. And can you tell us? I know the answer…  but. Pie, cake or ice cream? Kat?

Kathleen : Oh, none of them are.

Alison : Let’s go take a look in your freezer. Yeah, right.

Kathleen : Oh, I’m not doing that. I’m being a good girl for a half second. Uh, it is ice cream!

Alison : What flavor, Kat?

Kathleen : Coffee ice cream.

Jean: And I don’t know if that’s an Irish thing.

Alison : I know, it’s so good though.

Jean: I know, like my mother. Yeah, my mother’s friend. You, uh, you’re all Irish. And that coffee ice cream.

Alison : It is so good, though. That Haagen-Dazs coffee ice cream.

Kathleen : And when they used to have coffee syrup.

Alison : Oh, yeah.

Kathleen : That’s the combination of those two. And I remember that…. My first experience with that, this is how much I remember. It was in high school when they used to have those soda fountains. Yes. You know, they were great. You go in and they make your coffee sundae or something and put coffee syrup in it. And I would go, ooh, isn’t that good? You know. My heart would be racing for the rest of the day…but…

Alison :  you’d be flying.

Kathleen : I would be a nervous wreck, but fine.

Jean: Yeah. Those old fashioned sodas…

Alison : I used to love that.

Kathleen : Yes, weren’t they great!

Alison : We used to have Jans in the Bronx, and you and I talked about this. It was like. It was like a old timey soda ice cream sundae place. Yeah. Oh, man, that was fun. It was a big treat.

Kathleen : Yes. It was.

Jean: I think the ones that were like that was Howard Johnson’s…

Kathleen : Yes.

Alison : Or Friendly’s. Um… I love that… You’re making me hungry.

Jean: I know we should go get an ice cream soda.

Kathleen : I know, what’s your favorite? What are your favorite sodas? If you have ice cream, what do you have?

Alison : Oh.

Jean: I like pistachio.

Alison : Yeah. I used to be able to just eat hot fudge, you know, just eat the hot. I just love that consistency and the warmness and…

Jean: what ice cream do you like?

Alison : Um, pretty much any ice cream.

Jean: Okay.

Alison : Pretty much any ice cream. For me, it was that hot fudge sauce, man.

Jean: Okay, well, let’s all congregate at Baskins and Robbins.

Alison : That’s right.

Kathleen : And we will have our undays.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison : Thank you so much, Kat. This has been such a beautiful time. And it went by so fast.

Kathleen : Oh it did. Oh my goodness.

Jean: I know this conversation is going to bless many people.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean: Because it directs them back to the heart.

Kathleen : Oh, good, I hope so. Thank you so much for the graciousness of inviting me to do this. It’s just— my soul is smiling.

Alison : Us too… Thank you.

Kathleen : Good..

Alison : We love you, Kat. We’ll see you soon.

Jean: We love you.

Kathleen : Love you too. Bye bye.

Alison : Her voice just makes me calm.

Jean: Yeah, she her eyes too. She’s got beautiful eyes but her… Yes, her voice is very soothing.

Alison : And she just like whatever you want, Kat. Like you’re, like, hypnotized, you know?

Jean: That’s right. That’s right.

Alison : I have to say one thing. She comes to our house for Thanksgiving sometimes, and when she’s there, there’s a whole mix of people and ages. And the great thing about Kat is you can sit her next to anyone, and and she’s curious about them, interested in them, and brings out, like, laughter and great conversation. And that’s what I aspire to.

Jean: Well, you I mean, Alison, I think you do that. But Kathleen is definitely someone that has really, uh, evolved into an all around beautiful human being.

Alison : Yeah.

Kathleen : Yeah. So wherever she goes, she just brings Light. And I. And I think, like she said in the beginning of the interview, it we’re that’s what we’re all meant to do, is to communicate love on whatever platform, whether you’re an actor or whether you’re a teacher.

Alison : Or a dentist, a.

Jean: Dentist or an accountant. The the underlying essence is love.

Alison : That’s right.  That’s all that this comes down to, I think. Yeah, right.

Jean: I agree,

Alison : I agree too and.

Jean: I agree three.

Alison : Okay. Who else is in this closet? Get out of here. It’s so crowded in here. Um, well, thank you so much. Have, have a lovely day.

Jean: That’s right.

Alison : And thank you, Kathleen Noone.

Jean: We love you so much.

Alison : Bye bye.

Jean: Well, here…

Alison: Here we go.

Jean: Here we go. We were. We were just saying how we both feel. A little weird or off.

Alison: Like weird. Like it doesn’t. I don’t feel like me on some level. Like it’s strange. Like a little off, a little tired, a little weird.

Jean: Yeah. So we’re at the end of April, the new moon, right?

Alison: And this is probably not going to air until Christmas. I don’t even know.

Jean: But what we have to share today is, is some great, um, information about friendships.

Alison: Which is perfect because friendships are…. So they’re like a little life stream. Don’t you think? There’s this, like, they’re, like, wonderful.

Jean: Right? I don’t know what author said,  um, “my friends are the flowers in my garden.”

Alison: Jean, that’s so sweet. Mhm. You know, all these little good quips. But today we’re talking to Anna Goldfarb and that, that she’s, we read her book Modern Friendship. It’s so good because, it really does a deep dive into friendship. It’s just not like you need more friends. Right. Get more friends.

Jean: Exactly. And, uh, she shares many personal stories. And the New York Times refers to her as its friendship correspondent.

Alison: Right. Which is great.

Jean: That would be so, so great to have that title.

Alison: Yeah. You know, it would be perfect.

Jean: You have foreign correspondent, weather, financial, and then your friendship correspondent.

Alison: I love that. And I, I love that, um, her friendships as she describes in the book, sometimes she’ll say, look, I, I didn’t do this. I’m not perfect, which I love when a writer says that because it becomes, it makes me feel like more accessible to them.

Jean: Absolutely.

Alison: You know, I can’t wait to meet her. She looks so happy, smiley and happy and sweet. Well, here she is. Anna Goldfarb.

Anna: Okay. I’m coming. Hi.

Jean: Hi.

Anna: Good afternoon.

Alison: Oh. Where are you?

Anna: I’m in Philadelphia.

Alison: Oh, I love Philadelphia. We’re in LA.

Anna: Yeah, I wish I was in LA, unfortunately.

Jean: Well, we wish we could be in Philadelphia.

Anna: We should do switcheroo.

Alison: Exactly.

Jean: That’s right.

Alison: It’s so nice to meet you. I’m Alison.

Anna:  Hi, Alison.

Anna: Hi, Jean. It’s nice to meet you, too.

Alison: We loved your book!  “Modern Friendship, How to nurture our most valued connections.” And I love that this is you. You’re the friendship… You’re the friendship correspondent.

Anna: Yeah. Well, that’s something my editor tweeted. It’s not an actual position, but I love it. Yeah. But I was like, this is. I was just so flattered. And yeah, I’m obsessed with friendship.

Jean: It’s such a beautiful obsession. Yeah.

Alison: It is.

Jean: Um, I just was curious.

Anna: Yeah.

Jean: Before we really get into the meat of your book, what’s up with the word modern as opposed to just friendships?

Anna: Oh, um. Well, modern. I wanted to highlight how different friendship is practiced. It’s not our mothers and grandmothers landscape. When, um, making friends and keeping friends. So I really wanted to get into the sociology of friendship. Why is it different? Why does it feel so, so much harder to keep all these connections in play, it’s like we’re we’re spinning plates that no generation in history had to do this much work to keep their connections afloat. Like, it’s also very modern, that it’s so easy to be in touch with our friends, but we choose not to. Um, we don’t, you know, it used to be friendship relied more on favors in the favor economy, and now it’s entertainment. Friends are sort of seen as this cherry on top of a sundae. And it’s more, let’s go out for dinner. Let’s go out. Let’s, you know, go to a concert. Let’s let’s just entertain ourselves. It’s not can you give me a cup of sugar so much, or give me a ride to the airport or help me, you know, with things I need that’s almost, um, seen as gauche to ask for favors sometimes. When for our grandmothers, it was much more based on favors or even, um, you know, lower classes still rely on favors much more than wealthier people in wealthier communities.

Anna: I mean, modern friendship is like we live in the suburbs with lots of space between our friends. We’re not on our porches, you know, talking with people nearby. Um, our identities have changed so much. That’s modern friendship. Um, in the book Our Worst Strength, which is about individualism, it’s by, um, Doctor James Richardson, F Richardson. And he talks about how in 1920, the 1920s, our choices for identity were like, really not that many. It’s like, well, I’m a woman. I’m married, probably. I’m a mother, probably. Um, I’m in a religious community, probably. But fast forward to 1970, and now there’s like dozens of identities of I’m separated, I’m divorced,I don’t have I’m not a parent. Like, there’s so many more like, different identities people can have, which can also impact closeness and connection. So I mean, just think about like your local, your block, how different everyone is and how many different identities. And you seek out different people when you go through different things. So it’s not all married women with children in the same school. It’s, you know, a a retiree and a young family and everyone’s different. So it’s not as homogenous.

Jean: That’s so true. You know. And it just reminds me about modern friendships… Now that you’re putting a little meat on the bone for that, the context of friendship, you know, back in the 70s and 60s, people would just drop by. Oh, yeah. Like, oh, hey, I’m here. I thought I’d come in. Now, you know, you have to announce yourself. And this there’s this great comedian, Sebastian Maniscalco who who does a skit about that.

Alison: Really?

Jean: Like, who’s at the door? Everyone get down. Where before, there was

Anna: a lot more trust. There was a lot more trust. Yes. Yeah, there was a lot more trust. Um, since the 70s, our trust in our government, our institutions have plummeted. So our personal relationships are bound to reflect that. So that’s modern friendship… Well, now we’re living in a society with less trust amongst people. Um, that impacts, i mean, that just sends ripples through all of our decisions. You know, even, um, when people reach out, it’s sort of like, well, what’s your angle? Do you want to sell me something? Like what? Why are you reaching out? Why am I hearing from this old friend? Uh, what do you want to sell me, like a lotion? Do you want to sell me like a like a legging? And all these, you know, these things chip away at your trust. And I think we’re all a little bit more on guard. Um, and there’s a suspicion of like, well, why are you reaching out? What do you need? What? You know, it’s just it’s a different, like, atmosphere we’re living in. Yeah. In my opinion.

Alison: And proximity. Do you know, like, some of our really good friends live far away?

Anna: Yeah.

Alison: You know, and I think that that wasn’t the case for my mom or my grandma. Like, they were like. Yeah, grandma. You know, my grandmother was in a really Italian neighborhood. There were people on the stoops, and that was it. And also, I don’t think that my grandma, maybe this is just my family, and my mother had friends like — it wasn’t it wasn’t considered as important as I think it is now. Do you know do you, do you do you find that like now it’s sort of like… Everyone talks about who are your friends, make more friends. I don’t know that that was happening for my grandmother and mother.

Anna: They didn’t have to try so hard because they probably were really involved in their church or synagogue. They probably had people they saw all the time and they had help. They had an institution helping with their social lives. My grandma was in the synagogue, was a member of the sisters of the synagogue. They got she didn’t have to do it all on her own. But that’s part of the trade off of modern friendship is now we have unlimited flexibility. We can, you know, we have the clipboard. We’re our own cruise directors of our own good ship, good times. And we can pick whoever we want. But it’s also easier to leave those relationships. Um, so that’s the beauty. And the burden of modern friendship is like, well, we can befriend the young couple next door and, you know, get what we can from them, but it’s going to be harder to, you know, have someone else to come up with ideas and the where are we going to meet? What are we going to do? Um, is it going to cost me money? Like, you know, that’s  a whole different, uh, you know, a whole different, uh, casserole that we that we’re eating from. Oh, God, that’s a terrible metaphor, but it’s very different than my grandma did not have to spend a ton of energy. She lived in the same house for 53 years. Born and raised in Philly. You know, she had friends from first grade she was still friendly with. And it doesn’t look anything like my friendships. I mean, it’s just very, very, very different.

Alison: Yeah. And I what I really enjoyed about your book was, you know, you read a lot of things and you get a lot of messaging get get a new friend, get more friends. You need more friends. And it feels a little bit like pull a rabbit out of a hat, you know, swim the English Channel. It’s like, what the heck? Like, I can barely find my shoes. Some days I can’t just get a new friend. And that’s what I really loved about this book that you give very clear, concise, and non-threatening ways to deal with this. I didn’t feel like overburdened, and one of the things I really liked is give them a reason to say yes. When you text someone. Don’t just be like, hey, thinking about you.

Anna:  yeah.

Alison: Which I’ve done always, but it’s like, great. And I was like, oh, I’m a I got to like refine this. Could you talk a little bit about that?

Anna: Yeah. Well, you know, this is this is a message… This is a messaging, an outdated message that we’ve been receiving. And especially during the during the pandemic, a lot of the messaging was just reach out to people. Now’s the time. We’re all home. We’re go reach out to people, send that message. And I thought like, well, why did they lose touch in the first place? And well, what’s happening with that? Like what? Why do I have to reach out and say, thinking of you? Why aren’t we in touch regularly? And then secondly, like then, how does that turn into an active friendship? Just by reaching out and saying hi to someone. Is that. That’s. I mean, so much. We’re in a loneliness epidemic, and so much of the advice is lacking that nuance of, well, why aren’t you in touch?  what kind of friendship is this? Like, why is there distance? Um, and I think part of the messaging, I agree that a lot of it is make new friends, get new friends. It’s a little bit like adopt a new puppy. It’s like, okay, well, I have puppies. And, you know, they’re kind of it’s kind of like touch and go with them and they’re like, adopt a new one. It’s like, well, what’s going on with the friends I already have, who I already know, who I already like and I love. And why aren’t we why aren’t I talking to the people I already like? And the other thing is, why would someone want to be my friend? What am I bringing to the table? Like, it’s a little bit of an entitlement to think just because I reach out to someone unsolicited, as as nice and as pleasant as my message is, it’s unsolicited and I don’t know what they’re doing in the middle.

Anna: I don’t know how this message, this message is received. I don’t know the circumstances. They could have just gotten horrible news about their job, you know, or a loved one. And then I’m like, hey, thinking of you send like, I don’t know, you know. And then it becomes a bit of a to do list item for the recipient of like, okay, I have to discern what does this person want from me? Like, is this something I want to I and then you feel guilty, like I want to sit down and really write. I want to pay attention. But that’s going to probably be a few days until I get back to them, if you remember to get back to them, it’s just a really inefficient system, even though we have this access to our friends. It’s, um, not optimizing the experience for any of us. It’s not, you know, recognizing how busy and unpredictable and complex our lives are to just reach out with a message. I mean, we’re not in eighth grade passing notes in the hallway like I have other stuff going on. What do you need? Why me?

Alison: Yeah.

Anna: So we gotta help him out. We gotta explain. Like I’m not trying to sell you anything. I was just thinking about how we went on that trip that one time, and, you know, like, lessen the uncertainty. Yeah, that’s  our, uh…. You can see my cat Iggy in the background. He really wants to be a part of. He wants to be a part of the conversation. Clearly.

Alison: Come on in.

Anna: But, um, that’s that’s the nuance that I felt was missing from these conversations about friendship.

Jean: Yeah. It’s true.  Right. And I love, um… You give so many great personal stories, and then you turn it around and you ask the reader to be reflective if they want to. So. So I thought your questions were great. And, um, Anna, let’s just talk a little bit about friendships. You you say that there are two kinds and there are tears, which I, Allison and I both love that chapter.

Anna: So hold on a second. My cat just knocked my my microphone off. I’m so sorry.

Alison: No, it’s, um, I love it.

Anna:  You just knocked it off. Iggy is a troublemaker, you guys!!

Alison: That’s just how we roll.

Anna: I’m back. Thank you. Hello. Guys.  Uh, okay.  So two kinds of friendships.

Jean: Yes, yes, yes.

Anna: So, um, in the book, I talk about different tiers of friendship. Um, and that was based on the research of Robin Dunbar, who’s a British anthropologist, and he looked at societies of  – monkey societies. Do they have a society like monkey social ecosystems? And he determined that that we’re designed to really have a few varying degrees of, um, friendships in our life. And, you know, in his book, friends, he talks about these, uh, these tiers. And I wanted to highlight how fluid these groups are. I mean, we talk about how fluid they are, but I really wanted to, um, drive it home that these are, like, you can dip in and out. And so I decided to rebrand them with water imagery, um, and to, to, to describe how fluid these are. And the way it works is the most intimate tier Dunbar found was 1 or 2 people. And for men, it’s usually one person, and it’s usually their significant other. For women, it’s usually two people. It’s a significant other. And their closest friend and I called this tier the bathtub because there’s not much room in it. And then the next, the lower the the next tier, I call the Jacuzzi, and that’s 3 to 5 friends. Those are the friends that he calls your support system, your support group. And those are people that play really important roles for you, and you play important roles for them too.  these friendships take a really long time to come to build. Um, Jeffrey A Hall is a professor at Kansas University, and he found that it takes over 200 hours to go from stranger to close friend. So this Jacuzzi tier are people you spend over 200 hours with. Um, it’s a lot and hundred hours. 200 hours. And, you know, when you think about your best friends, like, yeah, it’s two over 200 hours of, um, spending time together and the next tier I call the swimming pool. And that’s the 10 to 15 people that, um, researchers call the sympathy group, which I thought was like, okay, like, if you need a happy hour or someone to cry on, but it’s actually called the sympathy group, because if anyone in this group died, you’d be very sad, which is very morbid, but that’s the sympathy group, and these are the people that you might double date with, um, coworkers, uh, they know, like, a lot of, uh, intimate details about you, but not as much as the support tier.

Anna: Um, maybe their family members. And then then it kind of goes on from there. Um, the next group I call the beach bonfire group, that’s about 50 people. Like, if you had a birthday party, a big party, and then the last group I call the water park, and that’s 150 people, which Dunbar calls the weddings and Funeral cohort. Like, these are people that come out for that big event. And that’s how our social lives should look like. You know, that’s part of why social media scrambles our brains so much, because it flattens your social circle. Like I’m only supposed to know so much about my Jacuzzi tier and swimming pool tier. But with social media, you’re you’re learning all these things about people that are in your water park that you don’t necessarily need to know this much about them. You don’t need to know that, you know what they ate for dinner. Or you know that their kid just got into this college, like, okay. And that’s what sort of feels weird about social media is I don’t need to know this much. I want to know this much about people in my life.

Alison: Right.

Anna: That actually impacts me. These these outer rings of our social life, Um, we’re not we’re it’s we’re not designed to know this much about them.

Jean: Because it takes time to have a friend, obviously, with that, with that number, you know, and to develop intimacy, you have to….

Alison: If you spend four hours a week with a friend, which is a lot, it’s a year, like it’s two years, right, or something. It’s like a year. It’s like you go, this is a lot of time.

Anna: Well, it is a lot of time. And there’s only a few people that you can realistically do that with, right? So that’s why friendship becomes more precious when we get older. Because where do you get those hours? Where does that time come? What are you taking away? You know, when we’re younger and in school, it’s so much easier to rack up those hours. And we really hit a brick wall with our social lives when we in our 30s, because we don’t have that time to just lay around, watch a movie, crack each other up like that’s a luxury now. I mean, that’s like a that’s the dream of when you can just sit around with a friend. There’s there’s only really realistically a few, a few people you should be doing that with. And that’s part, that’s why I wanted to write this book, because I didn’t have a strategy before with my friendships. I treated everyone like they were in the Jacuzzi and you spread yourself really thin. If you’re taking all these invitations of an old coworker and one of your oldest friends and you know a lady from your yoga class, and you weigh them all equally. You’re going to feel spread way too thin. It’s not.. you can’t keep these relationships up  as easily as you could when you were younger. You really have to make some choices and triage it of who’s really important here. Who should I focus on? When you get text messages. When, when, when my friends text me, um, I reply to my Jacuzzi friends immediately, like ASAP. But other people have to wait. You know, the swimming pool tire might be a day to, like, get back the beach bonfire- good luck…. Maybe in a week i’ll reach out and, you know, that’s how we triage… That’s what we’re doing when we reply to some friends and not others, we have to make choices on where to spend our energy.

Alison: It’s such a it was such a helpful model, truly, because I felt like I was supposed to be treating everyone full force. And I’m tired, man. Like, yes, yes. It’s tiring. You know, um, when you said a second ago. Like. Why me? What am I bringing to the friendship? What do you think you bring to a friendship? You personally.

Anna: What do I do? Well, you know, um, I site a study in the book about the five reasons people tend to make friends. Right? Um, it was done in 2021 from a group of Cypriot researchers. Um, Cyprus, I hear, is some place that exists, like the Cypriot um, and they, they, they identified five reasons. The first is career. Um, we tend to befriend people that want to help us with our career. Uh, second is mating. We, you know, for single or looking to date, uh, friends can be appealing if they can meet us with other if they can hook us up with other, you know, appropriate meets. The third is what they call desirable qualities. And that basically means someone’s super fun. And you share hobbies and passions like, they just seem…. they’re great. Um, and yeah, you share those interests. The fourth is, um, emotional support. That’s a huge one with our friends. We want someone who can listen and support us. And the last one is what they call sociability. And that means we just want to be a part of something. Be out and about. You join a book club or, you know, like a class just to just to meet people and be in the mix. So with that said, this is like learning how to play music. Like these are the notes of friendship. And what I learned is I needed to up my emotional support skills. I’m not very good at it. And I was repelling friends because I didn’t know how to comfort them when they’d have these, you know, these big you know, I tell a story in the book of….I have a friend who was going through IBF and I didn’t know how to comfort her. And my friend stopped, i mean, she blew me off, which honestly, I get– like I did not do a good job of meeting the moment. And that’s when I realized, like, the stakes are really high, especially in our culture. We get this messaging of, you know, that person’s toxic, drop them. You know, I feel like if I don’t say the right thing or meet the moment, I’m not a trained therapist. I don’t I don’t know how to do this stuff. And our grandmothers did not necessarily do this for one another. Their friendships were much more like based on getting a reprieve from the drudgery of married life. It was much lighter. They didn’t really disclose these kinds of like, personal, deeply personal, intimate details with one another as much. You know, women didn’t talk about miscarriages. They didn’t talk about, you know, these these deep things with one another the way that our culture has shifted towards. So I learned I had to up my emotional support game. I mean, and also with career. And when I reach out to new friends now, I’m like, oh, I’m interested in what you’re doing, how can I help? And people tend to keep those around that care about what they care about. So it’s like, okay, well, what does this person care about– that’s I designate one of my Jacuzzi friends. She cares about her career. Okay. I’m going to help her with her career.

Anna: We share that in common. Um. Let’s see. Desirable qualities. We both love the same movies. We like eating out to restaurants. We crack each other up. We’re fun. Friends want their friends to be fun. Like, I think we forget that. Not just use call and complain. It’s like, okay, we got to have fun. Um, I can just start hitting those notes. Um, conversely, all those reasons are why friends, um, fall apart is we don’t share a career. So like you, you realize you’re gravitating towards people that you share that in common with. So you might pull back from a friendship if you’re in completely different career fields. Um, if their emotional support skills aren’t up to snuff, you’re going to be closer to the friends that are, that can be empathetic and, you know,  have just have better skills, be more validating, be more supportive. So it really these five things really are the crux. This is like nugget– like highlight this information everybody and I know it’s we’re listening, but this is what we can do for our friends is we can tap into those skills and see what your friend needs. Does she need more fun? Let’s pump up the fun. Does she need support? Let’s figure out how to how to support her. Um, does she need sociability? Let’s start a group. Let’s start a monthly thing. And then you’ll notice that your friends are more likely to to keep you in the mix and keep you around because you’re helping them with these things that they care about.

Alison: You know what I love that you did not say, well, I’m a good person. I’m funny. I’m like, it takes all the personal vulnerability and like, like making me feel like I’m not enough away by saying, hey, work on being sympathetic. Work on getting together. I think that’s like, that’s what I loved because it’s just so not like like, I think the reason people want to be my friend is because, like, you know, I’m good, I’m okay. But really, I think people like to be my friend for some of the reasons you’re saying, which is outside of me in a way, like it’s skills I can learn, you know, which is fantastic.

Anna: It was really important to me to suggest things that are not out of your comfort zone, not out of anyone’s comfort zone. I am like a little bit lazy. Let’s be real. Like I’m a cat mom. I just want to hang out in Philly. And I wanted people to read this book and feel like they can put this into action. They don’t have to become someone else. They don’t have to pantomime, you know, some idea that’s not them. It’s like, no, you have people already like, let’s take a look at why things are working or why things aren’t. And once you start identifying, who am I going to focus on? I’m going to focus on a few people and be an outstanding friend to them. And you will just feel like this is achievable. Friendship is achievable and sustainable.

Alison: Right.

Jean: Yeah..You know, I think another valid point, you you really champion is that we all change– you know, i definitely am not the same woman I was in my 20s, you know, and what I required in my 20s is not what I need now. And my friends are going to reflect that… Um, and that’s also why, Anna, I loved how you spoke about the fluidity of the tears, because someone who was in my Jacuzzi is now maybe on the beach.

Anna: Yeah.

Jean: You know, I think to give us ourselves, some grace and go, you know, and rather than guilt for feeling bad, we’re not maintaining something. But if it’s just not there, um, and and yet, to your point, there are great things to do to rekindle a relationship. And, um. Can you share your story with your sister?

Anna: Oh my gosh. Well, with you know, it’s interesting as I started reporting on friendship, um, my first story was like 2016, 2017 where I started reporting on friendships and I was estranged from one of my sisters. Like, we really could not even get through a meal without smoke coming out of our ears of like, we are just at each other’s throats and I cannot get on the same page with her. And I, um, I wrote an article about how to maintain friendships for the New York Times that ran in 2017, and I spoke with a friendship expert, which I didn’t even know that was that thing such a such a thing existed. Like what? There’s friendship experts. Uh, her name is Shasta Nelson. She’s like, just a total, just a wonderful voice in the friendship space. She’s written so many books on friendship And what I learned from Shasta was that friendships, healthy friendships require three things- consistency, positivity, and vulnerability. So I started putting it to work with my sister. I started with consistency. She just had a kid, so I said, why don’t I come up every Saturday and help you watch your kid? Um, and then positivity. I started buying her little gifts of, like, I got you some of your cookies i thought you’d like. I got you a little lip balm. And then the last thing was vulnerability. Because once I came, she knew I was coming every week. And I was giving her little things. And then she’d– i’d be like, let me watch your kid while you while you take a nap. And she’d wake up, she’d be like, well, how are you? What’s going on with you? And that opened the portal to vulnerability. And we now talk on the phone every morning. Um, our we’ve never been closer. And we went from – we couldn’t even sit at a table together to now we vacation together. Um, our our relationship has completely transformed. And it all started because, I turned down the volume on thoughts like, why isn’t she doing more for me? Why isn’t she happier for me? And I turned up the thoughts, the volume on, sorry.. I turned up the volume on thoughts like what can I do to help her today? And that’s what our friends are looking, looking for from us. Of what can I do to help them? You know, I, I really think that movies and popular culture sell us this idea of- I’m in the middle and I have all my friends on my side, like, surrounding me.

Anna: They’re throwing me a party. They’re celebrating me. But what friendship actually is, is being the sidekick. It’s looking at friends that you love and admire and thinking, how can I help them? How can I help them? How can I be a witness to their challenges and triumphs? How can I cheer them on? And that’s where the good feelings of friendship come. It doesn’t come from how many people you know are in your phone. It doesn’t feel that good. We all have tons of friends in our phone. We’re not calling them, you know, like, it doesn’t feel that good. It actually can feel really lonely … I have so many dozens of friends and it it doesn’t really feel as good as you think it would. And studies reflect that. Studies show that it feels better to be considered someone’s best friend, to have people we admire point to us and say, that’s my best friend. So that’s like totally flipping the narrative on its head of it’s not about who’s in your posse, who you choose, it’s who do you support, who do you want to invest in, who do you want to cheer on?

Alison: And that’s great, really for any relationship.

Anna: Yeah.

Alison: You know, the more you can do that with anybody your kid, your husband, your sibling, your , anybody. It really even even sort of like, um, neighbors or a little bit of strangers just sort of being kind and a little bit open. I think that’s beautiful, beautiful advice that you…. What do you think is the thing from researching all this that surprised you the most? Were you was there anything that really surprised you while you were doing all this friendship sort of research?

Anna: I think it surprised me that you really only need 3 to 5 close friends– like that really surprised me. Because, you know, you think about all the people you’ve met in your life and trying to keep everyone, all of it going, trying to reach out to everyone and to hear you only need a handful, you only need a few. Actually, it was like a lightning bolt because it makes…. When I think back to when I was happiest with my friendships, it was, it was high school when I just had a few friends and I just focused on them. I wasn’t trying to keep up every connection I’ve ever made in my life. You know, I just had a few people and I was so happy. Yeah. And then, you know, you go away to school and you move around and you meet all these other people, and it just takes you away from that simplicity. So I think that’s the most surprising thing is how simple this can be, because it feels so complicated and it takes it took up a lot of real estate in my brain of are we still friends? I haven’t like, what’s up with my best friend from, you know, college? I haven’t talked to her. Am I a jerk? Is she? It would take up so much mental energy. And since I wrote this book, I feels like putting down a heavy backpack. Like, I don’t have to think this much. I can I have language for these tiers… I understand that they’re fluid, I understand I can negotiate a friendship. I can say, Jean, I want to spend more time with you. I really miss you. Like, what are your goals this quarter? How can we, how can I help? Do you want a accountability buddy for something? Do you want to move your body more? Do you want to do social media stuff together? Like we can negotiate with our friends, which was something I didn’t understand about friendship before either.

Jean: And so, that what you just said reminds me of your , About .

Alison: Yeah. That’s so great.

Jean: Right. So if you’re going to help me organize my kitchen, or you’re going to help me start my garden—So I’ll let you take it from there., Anna– the about.

Anna: Yes. Thank you. Um, thank you for bringing for asking about that. This is, this I think is the core thesis of the book is, you know, friendship is a story of time. You know, we talked about those 200 hours, and I was I remember learning that and thinking, well, what would I spend? What would I spend 200 hours doing? Like what would what? Like what does that look like? And that’s when I thought, well, why does anyone do anything? And do how do friendships fit in with that? And so I learned about choice theory, which was written, which is a theory by Doctor William Glasser. He came up with choice theory in the 60s. And it was all about how humans behave. We all have these five genetic inherent needs um, survival, power, love and belonging, freedom and fun. Every decision we make is because we’re trying to get one of those needs met. You know why I eat Oreos? Even though I’m not hungry? It’s like, well, you know what? I want A little fun, i’m a little bored, I don’t know. Um, the chocolate gives a sense of belonging because it’s the oxytocin, oxytocin, whatever– it’s in my brain. The chemical I just misspoke. Right. So I was thinking about why anyone does anything. And then I merged the two of like, okay, how does this work with time, friends and behaviors? And what I learned is that every friendship needs an, “about” and the about needs to be clear and compelling.

Anna: So what this means, is it’s not enough that we just want to spend time together… We have to find something apart from us that we love doing, that we want someone to do with us to talk about, with us, to explore, with us, to comment on, with us. Um, and I learned that abouts can change, be outdated or be absent. And that really explained why I gravitated towards some friendships and not others. Or when you meet someone new and you’re like, you seem promising, we should get lunch. And you’re like, well, why is that? Why doesn’t that lunch happen? It’s because we didn’t identify and about… it wasn’t clear and it wasn’t compelling, as opposed to if I said, do you want to get together for lunch? We can talk about, you know, the podcast you’re starting, i’ve been on some podcasts, i can share some names. Well, that could be very compelling to the other person. So they’re more likely to say, yes. Um, and that really just opened up a whole portal for me of understanding. It’s not just affection. Affection isn’t enough to keep a friendship active. You really need a a clear and compelling about for both people to make time to see one another.

Alison: But the about can not be um, can be simple, right? Like, let’s let’s take a hike. Let’s hike once a week. It doesn’t have to be something…

Anna: Some huge thing.

Alison: You know, because I want people to know that it’s so easy to sort of think of and about like–

Anna: It could be anything. And it goes back to those five reasons that people make friends. If our about is career, I might, that might be very compelling for me, and that will make me be more interested in seeing you and spending time with you. Um, mating in our 20s, a lot of our my abouts were, let’s go out dancing and let’s go meet guys. You know, it doesn’t translate to another decade, perhaps, but when in my 20s that was our about. And that’s also the reason that some of those friendships faded away is because, that about wasn’t as compelling to me once I got older. Um, the third about is desirable qualities like we talked about, you know, being fun, sharing passions and hobbies. Um, fourth, emotional support. That’s a great about sometimes we call our friends because we need a little support and we want to get together. We want to vent. Um, so those are all abouts. They totally overlap. And it’s a whole, it is a whole new way to think about your friendships of… It’s not personal, it’s we, it’s okay, we have affection, we care for one another, but what’s our about is our about outdated? We talk about, you know, going to camp when we were when we were 15. How often do I want to talk about camp? Maybe every 12 years. Maybe that’s why we talk every 12 years. So you can negotiate, you know. Well, I want to spend more time with you. What do you care about today? How can I help with that? And you can negotiate a new, “about.”

Alison: Fantastic.

Jean: Love that.

Alison: I love that,  you’re so and you’re so, you really are fun.

Anna: Oh, my God, I try. I really try to be fun. I’m a middle child, you know? We’re all little…. We all want the attention.

Alison: Yeah, I get it, I get it, yeah.

Jean: And you have a gorgeous smile.

Alison: You really do.

Anna: Thank you, thank you. Oh, my God, we should talk all the time.

Alison: That could be our about…

Anna: Desirable qualities. Check.

Alison: Um, just to sort of wrap up, we always ask these two questions of people. Um, our podcast is called Inside Wink, and I was wondering, what do you think that means? There’s no wrong answer…

Anna: Inside wink, I think of, um, stumbling upon a really good pastry, and I just think like, yeah, I found a good I don’t know what inside wink means, but I think of that little flutter I get of, oh my God, that looks so good. I’m going to get that cream puff. Um, I live right by the Italian market in South Philly. So, um, for my birthday, I went to a little Italian bakery and looking at the whole row of pastries, I felt like an inside wink of, I am going to get some treats for that… I’m not going to share them… They’re all for me. And that’s what it feels like. hahah

Alison: We could definitely be friends. The three of us. Definitely.

Jean: I love going into bakeries.

Alison: Yeah.

Jean: I and I know those cases that you walk in and you see… Oh, Napoleon, you know.

Alison: Oh, yes.

Jean: the rainbow cookies.

Anna: Yes.

Alison: Hungry? Yeah.

Anna: We should do a field trip.

Alison: We should….When we come to Philly, we’ll do bakeries.

Jean: Um, okay. So, speaking about desserts.

Anna: Yes.

Jean: What’s your favorite cake? Pie or ice cream?

Anna: I love that there’s a world where they can all be separate things and not live on the same plate. But I gotta say, ice cream cake is my favorite. A Carvel.

Jean: Nice.

Anna: I think about Carvel ice cream cakes solidly once a week.

Jean: I love Carvel.

Alison: I love Carvel.

Anna: I know it’s East Coast.

Alison: We’re both from the East Coast, and I love the way that he would take, um, like, Dumpy the Pumpkin or something and turn it around. And it was Fudgie the Whale.

Anna: Like yes. Cookie puss. Yes.

Alison: And same mold. Like, I just kind of love that. Yeah. You know.

Jean: Those were the, um, you know, the the dips, the vanilla ice cream or chocolate soft serve, and they would dip it in chocolate or strawberry and the crunch in  the cake.

Anna: And all the textures

Jean: There are those great restaurants on the East Coast that we don’t have… I mean, there is a Carvel every now and then here, but not like on the East coast.

Anna: I know we’re spoiled and they sell Carvel in the supermarket.

Alison: Really?

Anna: Yeah, right in the freezer section. So I need to manufacture reasons to get a little ice cream cake.

Alison: I love that. Thank you so much for this. You’ve just…

Anna: Oh my gosh.

Alison: You’re a sweet woman, and just a great friend…. And we really enjoyed this. And I hope a lot of people read it because it’s really important and very accessible.

Anna: Yes. Thank you for saying that. I really wanted it to, you know. Was it under-promise and overdeliver? Yeah. Like okay, friendship…. Like, where are we going? And then it’s like, oh, wow. Like, this really is putting a lot of things into sharp focus. And I just am here to help. I really am obsessed with friendship. And, you know, just to get to help people understand their friendships better and just feel like I can to really empower people of, you know, friendships, you can make them work for you at any stage. It’s not just for younger people. It’s not just for when you were young. You can have wildly amazing friendships. Your best friendships are ahead of you. That’s how I feel. So that’s how I want people to feel optimistic, hopeful, empowered. Um, all of that. So thank you for saying that. That really means a lot to me.

Alison: You’re fantastic. Thank you so much, Anna.

Jean: Yes.

Anna: Thank you.

Alison: Have a beautiful day. And we love your cat.

Anna: Thank you. Cheers.

Alison: That was. That was an excellent, excellent interview.

Jean: She was wonderful. She was exactly what I thought she was going to be like. And, you know, some interviews, i’m like, wow, how is this going to go down? But with Anna, that was really lovely.

Alison: She was so smart. We were just we were just saying that she can keep all that in her head. This was from this doctor and this was this study in Cyprus. And here are the and I thought, wow. Like she really knows her stuff. It’s really interesting to me.

Jean: Right.

Jean: Yeah. And really her book truly made me think about my friendships.. Where I, I could, I could reach out more and where I’m feeling, no, that feels good.

Alison: Right? And she at the end of the book, she does a cleanse, a friendship cleanse. And it’s really interesting about really reevaluating where you are, cleaning out a drawer, getting things moving, getting energy moving. And it’s really, um, I really enjoyed it. And I really like talking to her because there’s none of this felt blameful.

Jean: Exactly. And, and, and I think that’s the most important thing to remember is that we’re all humans… We all have our different seasons. And, um, some of us are going to ride the train the whole way, and some of us get on and off at different stops.

Alison: And I just have to say, I, I think you two are very blessed with beautiful, beautiful friends. And likewise, I feel that, um, it we have invested a lot of time and we have invested on both sides. My friends have invested a lot of time into me and a lot of love and likewise. And so when she was like, you can always have an opportunity to even be a better friend, i love that because it gives me something to achieve as opposed to just like, you know, she said, go get a puppy, you know?

Jean: Right, right. And that friendships grow. Yeah. Grow and change. And, uh, you know, something we didn’t talk about, but I thought, I think it was I don’t know where I heard it, but she does say it’s really nice to do something a little special for your friend. Something out of the norm.

Alison: And you always do that.

Jean: I was just gonna say, you do that for me

Alison: So that’s exactly what I was. I think I got it from you because you’re just so…

Jean: Romance Your friendship.

Alison: That’s right, that’s right. Have some fun. So I think this is a great book for everyone to read, any age, everything. And I, I wanted to ask about male friendships, which I didn’t get to. I wonder if that’s different, but really, if you have a minute, pick up,  Modern Friendship by Anna Goldfarb.

Jean: Yes.

Jean: It’ll be something that you can use with your friends and in any relationship.

Alison: Oh yeah, that would be a great thing to read like for a friend book club. Mhm. Right. That would be great. Well anyway. Okay. Thank you Jeannie. Thank you everybody.

Jean: Thank you. Friend of mine Alison.

Alison: Yes, Thank you friend and thank you friends. Thank you so much. Have a great day.

Jean: Bye.

Alison: Hello.

Jean : Hi there.

Alison: Today we get to talk to a hero, right?

Jean : A true hero? Yes… And, uh, I’ve never actually spoken to a fireman, one on one.

Alison: Oh. Me neither. Like, sometimes, if I’ve needed help, like that time we that we fell down. That I fell down?

Jean : Yes.

Alison: And they came and helped me. Right. Um. You were great then, by the way. Um. And they came and helped me, and they.

Jean : I waited for you on the trail. I just didn’t take off. Good luck to you.

Alison: Well, you were very sweet. You stood and gave me shade. Everyone was very kind. But the firemen were really great. The paramedic firemen that showed up and the fire truck, um…. And there have been fires here, and fires… It seems all over, like the weather has just been very intense and going through those fires this year.

Jean : Yes.

Alison: Really? We wanted to talk to someone that this is their job, you know?

Jean : Exactly. So we are really, uh, grateful to speak with Alexander Edwards.

Alison: Right. And we know his dad.

Jean : We know his dad, Edward Edwards.

Alison: He’s a wonderful actor.

Jean : And his lovely mom named Liis.

Alison: And so we were so lucky, he just, he became a captain. He’s a fire captain.  And I have to say, um,  i can’t wait to speak to him and just hear some tips and just hear what it’s like to to to be in his life. You know?

Jean : It’s going to be a whole new territory for me, so.

Alison: Me too. It’s going to be fun. So here he is, Alexander Edwards.

Alexsander : Hello.

Alison: Nice to meet you.

Alexsander : Nice to meet you, too.

Jean : I see a  little bit of your dad…do people…

Alexsander : Oh,  I have a lot of my dad. Yeah. I’m pretty…especially my mannerisms. Yeah. I’m very, very similar.

Jean : Well, I like your dad a lot.

Alexsander : Great.

Alison: Yes.

Alexsander : Very nice to meet you guys.

Alison: Hi, I’m Alison.

Jean : And I’m, Jean..

Alexsander :  yeah, good to meet you guys.

Alison: So thank you so much for doing this. You know, topics of fires, I guess…. The other day, there was a fire in new Jersey, and, um.

Alexsander : Oh, really?

Alison: Yeah. I read something on the news yesterday about it. Um, so it seems like, I don’t know, fires are just on everybody’s mind right now. So basically, could you tell us a little bit of how you chose this path?

Alexsander : Yeah, I, um, so I’ve been a firefighter with L.A. County Fire Department for about 13 years. I just got promoted to captain in November.

Alison: Congratulations!

Alexsander : Thank you. Um, so my big intro into it was basically growing up, my… I was friends with these two brothers, and, uh, they were like, my best friends growing up. And their dad was in LA city fire captain. Um, he’s kind of like my second dad. So you guys have met Edward, obviously, but, uh, yeah, he was the other dad that I grew up around the most, and so kind of getting exposed to him, and, um, he’s kind of lifestyle and what he did and everything like that was kind of my first introduction into that world or that opportunity, so to speak. Yeah.

Alison: And he was a fireman.

Alexsander : He was a fire captain with LA City Fire Department.

Alison: Wow. And did his children become firemen?

Alexsander : No, that’s the funny thing. Actually, no. So, my dad’s an actor. I became a firefighter. He was a fire captain, and his sons became an animator and a physical therapist.

Jean : That’s So it’s just funny.

Alexsander : Complete flip flop? Yeah. Complete flip flop. Yeah, yeah. I’m the only one that became, uh, became a firefighter out of the three of us.

Alison: Wow.

Jean : And is there like, a certain age that someone, uh, should really entertain seriously, becoming a firefighter, if that is something they want?

Alexsander : I think it happens differently for everybody. I mean, there’s some guys like I used to work with a guy who I asked him when, you know, because that’s kind of a common question. We have a lot of downtime with each other. And so you end up talking to guys. Um, there was one guy I talked to,  you know,  when did you decide you wanted to be a firefighter? And he was the kid, that when the firemen came to the school for a, you know, like a show me, when he was in kindergarten, he was the kid that got to have the helmet put on his head. And he was like, from from that moment on, that’s when he wanted to be one. Um, I, I went through college, um, I got hired when I was 28, so I, I had a whole other life before this. Um, but I kind of always thought about it might be a good job for me. Um, you guys know my dad… He’s not a firefighter, but my dad’s very socially conscious and was always very, uh, like, i remember one time we were sitting at this restaurant and there was a car accident outside, and my dad was the one guy in the restaurant that got up and ran out to go help the people, so I was raised around it, even though he wasn’t a part of it.

Alexsander : Um, and so I think I kind of always had that service idea or social responsibility in my background of what I was raised with. Um, but I just didn’t get to it in time. So. So for some people, they start when they’re 18 or 19. I liked that I had another life before it. Um, I think you bring some extra experience to the table when you, when you get that job. Um, also an appreciation for it. It’s a great job. But I always joke that, like, uh, it’s nice to kind of know what you know, other people do, like in a not having a 9 to 5 as opposed to like the jobs that because our schedules are so different. Um, yeah. So no, there’s no there’s no wrong age. I mean, there’s guys that don’t do it till they’re 40.

Alison:  wow.

Alexsander : Yeah, I think it’s it, it is to some extent a calling. Um, and there’s different ways to get to it. So. Yeah.

Alison: What is your schedule like?

Alexsander : So. I work –  L.A. County fire departments on what’s called a Kelly schedule… I don’t know why it’s called that. And some some person named Kelly must have invented it back in the day. Um, but we worked 24 hours. Um, so you’re there, uh, essentially 7 a.m. to 7 a.m.. Um, and we work ten days a month. Um, so basically works out to about 240 hours a month is, is how it’s scheduled. And then those days are basically, the way I describe it is there’s like a 3 day cycle of-   on a day, off a day, on a day, and then you’re off for two. And then, on a day, off a day, on a day, off for four. It never actually works out that way because guys pick up overtimes. You switch shifts, everything like that. But if you just work your schedule, that’s what you would work.

Alison: And like when you started, was it were you scared?

Alexsander : You know, I think it’s one of those things where just like anything, I think you don’t really know until you try it, right? Like, I mean,  I had some really, you know, obviously, I was around, uh, my best friend’s dad, Eric. And so he grew up listening to his stories from the firehouse, and his stories never bothered me. He’d tell me some fairly, you know, fireman…. We see some gruesome stuff. And so I would hear those stories, and those never bothered me. And the stories about fires he fought and those always sound exciting. And, um, and then before I became a firefighter, I got my EMT license and I did some stuff with that. And you don’t know about things until they, um, are presented to you. And I did some stuff with the EMTs, and it didn’t bother me as much as I thought it would. And then I became a firefighter. And you go through a fire academy and, um, you do live fire training. And I found that I was more excited than anything and just enjoyed it. And so, um, I mean, there are scary moments,  I think, you know, it’s just like anything, it’s like, honestly,  I’m sure my dad’s an actor… I think I’d probably be more scared to get up on stage in front of, like, a couple thousand people than I would be to run into a building at this point.

Alison: Yeah.

Jean : So, uh, Alex…So I’ve heard that the training to become a fireman is, is pretty intense. Would you say that it it was?

Alexsander : Yeah. Yeah, it definitely can be, um… It’s rigorous. Yeah.

Jean : Um, is there anything that shocked you, like… Oh, my God, I can’t believe we’re doing this?

Alexsander : You know, my department was really good at prepping us ahead of time for what it’s actually going to take. Um, so I kind of knew what it was going in. Um, anyone who’s looking, I have a couple people that I’ve helped get hired over the years. And the big thing that I, I quote to everybody, at least for my department, is cardio. You, um, going through the fire academy, it’s I think it’s now it’s either four months or six months. I can’t remember exactly, but the first ten weeks or so are just intense… They call it the grinder. And it’s because it grinds you in… You’re spending every day, um, pulling hose, practicing doing things… You’re not allowed,  it’s almost like it’s a boot camp, basically. Um, we don’t live there, but you’re there from 5 a.m. to 5 p.m. ish, give or take. Um, you’re not allowed to, uh, walk when you’re going between classroom or and anything. You’re running everywhere. Uh, mine was in August. So in, uh, Pomona, so hot, you know, 100 to 100 degree days. And, um, just anybody who asked me, I said, the biggest thing you can do is cardio. I mean, you can do all the pushups in the world and all the, you know, your bench presses 315 or whatever, but if you can’t run, you’re going to get tired. And when you’re tired, then you can’t focus on what you’re doing. And that’s when you’re going to make mistakes. And unfortunately, some people do fail out of the academy because they just can’t keep up with, uh, the cardio or the rigorousness of it.

Alison:  Can I ask two stupid questions?

Alexsander : No, no stupid questions. Go ahead.

Alison: in that suit, is it incredibly hot?

Alexsander : It gets warm. It does? Yeah. You you start sweating almost immediately. And the other part of that, is that your gear is heavy. So like, I weighed myself when I wear my gear…. So I’m, I’m about 230 normally, and when I put my gear on I weigh over 300 pounds. So it’s about with the with the suit on the air, pack your, your axe, everything like that, you’ve got about 70 to 80 of extra weight on top of you. And then you’re having to, you know, then you’re climbing the stairs and doing the stuff with all of that on you as well. So you you start sweating almost immediately.

Alison: That’s amazing. And now here’s my second stupid question. Um, um, when you are called, like, you hear that bell go off, right, and you all jump on a truck and you go to a fire, do you all have jobs before… Jean and I were talking about this…. Do you all have jobs before you get to the fire? Like, okay, you’re going to do the hose, you’re going to climb a ladder?   And is that what you do all the time or does that rotate?

Alexsander : Uh, it rotates. Um, it’s most fire stations, like in my department, at least, they all do mostly the same thing, but everyone kind of has their own little flavor based on their districts, like some districts will have, a perfect example of this is, uh, we my department, uh, incorporates West Hollywood into it. West Hollywood has a lot of, um, high rise. So their district is really like they are our department’s experts on high rise because that’s what they have. And so, um, a lot of it’s dictated on where you sit on the, uh, on the truck or the engine and what your rank is. So I’m a captain now. So my job as a captain is to run the incident. And so I’m mostly on the radios and I’m being the safety watching out for my men and women. Um, the, the person who drives the engine is the engineer, and he’s either responsible for, uh, getting the water supply or, uh, raising the ladder on the big ladder trucks. And then the firefighters, their job is based on, um, where they’re sitting. So, like, on those big trucks with the guy in the back, uh, that’s what’s called the tiller. So my old station, the tiller was always responsible for putting up the first ladder. And what we call the inside man was, uh, responsible for grabbing, like, the chainsaws or pulling the hose. So, yes, we we and we train. We do a lot of training, and we train those positions. Um, but you will switch. So, like, just because you’re the tiller one day doesn’t mean you’re going to be the tiller every day. So like we, we do rotate. So you just become a better rounded firefighter that way. So some days you’re pulling the hose, some days you’re going to the roof and yeah, you alternate. Yeah.

Jean : Right. And I’m curious, so when you’re at the firehouse and there’s no fire, do you all have your own room? Is it like a dorm?

Alexsander :  It depends on the station. Um, there’s not a standardized station, uh, so to speak. Um, my department especially like LA County, um, we control parts of the county that are unincorporated, uh, areas like the Malibu Mountains, for example. And then we also control our cover, uh, contract cities. So my old station, when I was still a firefighter before I promoted, um, was in Gardena, and we actually took over Gardena, and we are housed in their stations. And Gardena had separate dorms for each, uh, personnel at the station. So I had my own room. Um, my new station is in Hawaiian Gardens down by Long Beach, and it’s an old county station. It’s an open dorm. So it’s me and two other personnel sleeping in the same dorm. Um, so it honestly, it really is, uh, station dependent. The new stations they’re making them with, everybody has their own room. Um, and that’s partially to accommodate, you know, we have more and more women working in the fire department, and the privacy issues, things like that. But the old, uh, the old stations kind of still have that open dorm, uh, open bathroom, open locker room kind of vibe to it. So they were working away from that, but we’re still in it, so to speak.

Jean : Are you eating your meals together and cooking?

Alexsander : Yeah, We cook or we go out.. We have a cook schedule. Um, some again, some stations have uh, they’re a little bit more rigorous with that. But we, yeah, we do a lot. We have a cook schedule, so, you know, my station is three guys. So every third shift, I’m the cook. Um, and we rotate some stations if you work there, you know, you’re going to be eating two meals. You’re gonna be cooking two meals if you’re the cook. Uh, do lunch and dinner. Um, Sundays is a big brunch day. You make, especially during football season, guys will usually make a big breakfast burrito or pancake brunch for the guys, and then do some kind of meal in the afternoon or something like that. So yeah, we try to have fun. We try to make it fun. Uh, holidays, you know, firefighters were not off on holidays, so we have to work Christmas. We have to work, you know, everything. And, um, a lot of the big stations will have, like, uh, I know the station up the street from me they have a bunch of guys working, so they did an Easter egg hunt for the kids at the station so that their kids could all come and be there and stuff like that. So they try to make it fun.

Alison: Oh, that’s. That’s very sweet. Do you do you have any memories of something where you had to grab someone out of a building and save them? Like, what is that experience? Have you ever done anything?

Alexsander : I haven’t. Let’s see. Oh I did, I actually did pull a lady out one time. Yeah I, I’ve had I pulled one lady out of a building or out of a, it was actually a detached garage that they had turned into a like a grandma suite, so to speak, and it was on fire and we pulled her out. She she ended up passing away the next day from her injuries. But, um, no, I mean, that’s that’s kind of what you, you train for and you, you don’t hope that it happens, but you’re happy when you get to do it. Um, they had a fire in Gardena. I wasn’t on it, but some of my best friends on the job were on it about a year ago, where they pulled four people out of the building. And it was it was pretty impressive. So, um, you know, it’s funny, you always feel like you’re going to be, you know, you grew up on those movies like Backdraft, where they, like, pick them up and and walk out. And when you actually do it, it’s not nearly as, um, cinematic as you think it’s going to be. Um, yeah. But we we did. We pulled a she was she was trapped inside the house. She was, uh, in a wheelchair. And so we pulled her out. But then unfortunately, her airway was so burned that she died the next day.

Alison: Oh. I’m sorry.

Alexsander : Yeah.

Jean : So I was curious that you bring up the movie, Backdraft. Is there a movie that you’ve seen that you feel really depicts the the life and the way a fireman moves in their in their job?

Alexsander : You know, i think it’s really a throwback and probably my generation and younger doesn’t really know about it, but I think probably the still the most accurate description of, uh, my experience with the fire service is actually the old, Emergency. If you guys ever watched Emergency. Yeah, that actually I think is the best like day to day description of kind of what we actually do. Um, you know, the new stuff like, Chicago Fire does a pretty good job. Um, obviously things are put to Hollywood spin on it. Um, there was that movie about the hotshot crews, uh, Only the Brave. I don’t know if you guys saw that? That was a very good movie. I wasn’t in a fire camp, but I’ve heard that that’s a very good, accurate description of what those guys go through. Um, I’m trying to think what other firefighter movies I’ve seen. I mean, Backdraft, I think Backdraft has to some extent, like the kind of station shenanigans and all that stuff. Obviously, again, like, there’s some Hollywood liberties, but yeah, for my for my money, if I was going to like, especially if my daughter gets older, I’m going to show her the old Emergency episodes so that she kind of sees what it’s like. Yeah.

Alison: So you have a family, right?

Alexsander : Yes…I have a daughter…A wife and a daughter and a dog.

Jean : Is the dog a female?

Alexsander : Yes. It’s me and three women.

Alison: so it’s guys on those Kelly schedule –  a lot of them… Um, so how is it for your family? Like, did they have any with your wife? Was it, like, hard or for her to be like, yeah, go do that?

Alexsander : You know, I was a firefighter when I met her, so she’s kind of never really known anything different, um, you know….  our schedule is hard, i mean, you know, I jokingly say, but it’s really true because, my wife’s a single mom half the month, you know, I’m gone. I’m scheduled ten days a month. But I really, in reality, work probably about 14 or 15 days at the station, so it really falls on her. We’re fortunate we have two great sets of grandparents that live nearby that help out a lot. But yeah, my wife is basically a single mom half the time. Um, and she’s really stepped up to that. And, you know, we do we do have like, you know, the family actually sacrifices a lot for it, for the career. It is, um, you know, and you have to bend things– like I was I was gone all of Easter, so, um, we did… The Easter Bunny came on Friday for us, you know, and I had to explain to him… Yeah, we we told my daughter, I was like, you know, everybody knows that firefighter children don’t get to be with their families on holidays, so he shows up early for them and she bought it.

Alison: It’s funny.

Alexsander : Yeah so he’s  magical, so he knows these things. But yeah, you just adjust. I was also gone on Christmas. So, um, you either have it at the station or you adjust it, but yeah, at some level, there’s a lot of benefits that come from the job. But your family, you’re not the only one working. Your family definitely is working as well,  and it’s not to the same level, but kind of like what military families go through, I’m sure.

Alison: And how do you feel like with your firehouse of other firemen, like, do you become so bonded or are you guys rotating within…?

Alexsander : you do you get very close with your guys. I, uh, I just promoted to a new station in a new area… When you promote, they usually move you somewhere else to kind of get your, um, to, you know, feel feel out the rest, you know, it puts you in a, in a spot to, like, learn your job a little bit, so to speak. Um, but before I promoted, I had been in the same area for about ten years, and so most of the guys in that area, I knew them. Um, my, you know, my crew was some of my best friends. Um, but I actually really like my new crew, too. I got a new crew of guys I didn’t know from before, and it’s been working out great. So,  yeah, you spend a lot of time with them. A lot of time. You see some really gnarly stuff. Um, and, uh, these are guys that, at the end of the day,  are there if something happens, you expect them to pull you out of a building. So you, you spend a lot of time with them and really kind of you get to know them pretty well.

Alison: Yeah. Yeah.

Jean : Okay. So I’m curious, Alex, if when, when you get a notification like let’s say, oh, there’s a huge fire up in in Big Bear. How how is it that you’re able to share firemen to go from LA to go up to Big Bear?

Alexsander :  That does happen. We have, um, we have mutual aid contracts with different agencies. So, um, you know, whether it’s with the feds or with Cal Fire, who Cal Fire is basically, it really kind of comes down to who’s like, for lack of a better term, who’s dirt it is. We always talk about that in the fire services, who owns the dirt. Um, and we will have mutual aid with those departments. So, um, you know, there’s federal, we have federal lands within California. So those are controlled by federal firefighting. We have Cal Fire, which runs a lot of the state, um, then my departments, county. So, um, you know, for example, the, uh, the Woolsey Fire,  if you guys remember that in Malibu, it broke out in Malibu, but it ended up going into state land, into state parks. And so Cal Fire took it over and we worked in conjunction with them. And so, um, depending on where there there is a fire and who has mutual aid, We do have like my department has what are called, um, strike teams. And some of those strike teams are designated as, uh, they’ll go out of county, um, and, uh, it’s basically like a strike team is, um, a group of engines with a chief. And so, like, I, I haven’t gone that many times, but I was on one strike team that we ended up in Fresno on fire in 2016. Um, so  we will have that, um, mutual aid with other fire departments. And you saw after the Palisades fire and the Eaton fire driving around, you’d see people from Denver and all over the place. It was it was really like a multiple, multiple thing. So. Yeah.

Alison: And, so you know, you’re like a hero. Everyone, you know, you’re a hero. So do you…. are you aware of that? Does that feel like something to you? Do you like,you’re just a hero that’s walking around, like going to Vons? Like it’s kind of…

Jean : Your like superman without without the cape on.

Alexsander : I think for most of us, we, we take a lot of pride in what we do. And, and we appreciate the love that the public has for us. But we also understand that that comes with a lot of responsibility to uphold that. And um,  there is there’s a lot of responsibility with that. We’re very proud of what we do, but we also appreciate the amount of support that we get from the public for for what we do. And also on day to day, it’s a job for us. So we do feel that pride. But it’s also like, you know, I think you do anything you eventually kind of just get used to, like having a job. It sounds weird to say that, but like, I remember years ago I went skydiving in New Zealand and talking to the guy that was my skydiving instructor, he was kind of like, ho hum, here we go. Another jump. And I was like, skydiving? And he’s like, yeah, this is like my fifth one today. You know? It’s just like you do anything enough. It kind of becomes normal..

Alison: This is going to sound, maybe.. do you cry;   like do you like sometimes just like after a fire, you guys come back and just feel emotion and like, is there that kind of thing…???

Alexsander :  I think fires,  I mean I can’t speak for every firefighter, but fires are fun. And I mean, I hate to say that because when there’s a fire and, you know, I, I lost my house in the Palisades fire…. So I understand now on even more of a level where people are coming from. But fires are fun. It really is like if you have this, maybe it’s something wrong in my brain and all the other firefighters, but you really, I really enjoy fighting fire. It’s it’s what we train to do and it’s fun. The hard part is that we’re  also a medical department. Before I promoted, I was a paramedic. Um, the ones that,  the calls that really get you are the kids. So I’ve been on a couple, uh, kids and teenager fatalities, whether car accidents or drownings, those are the ones that really affect you. Um, yeah, they just recently I wasn’t on this one, but recently my guys just actually saved a kid who was drowning, and they got him out and did CPR and got him back, and he’s fine. Which is amazing. But unfortunately, that doesn’t always go the way you want it to. So I’ve been on quite a few of those, um, that those do affect you. I think kids, more than anything affect you, and I think most people would attest to that. Um, adults are hard, but, you know, it’s kids are just the ones. But yeah, fires. Fires are fun. I mean, for us. And I do understand someone’s losing their property, but when you you spend so much time training and preparing for something, when you actually get to do it, you’re very excited.

Alison: Yeah, right.

Jean : Can you share a couple of, let’s say, two tips that our listeners can take away with that can help safeguard their home from from fires?.. Yes.

Alexsander : I mean, I think the biggest thing that I always tell everybody is make sure that your smoke alarms and your, uh, carbon monoxide detectors are up to date. It’s amazing. You know, we go in my my station right now, we go in about ten houses a day between medical calls and this, that and the other. And it’s amazing to me the amount of people whose houses you walk into. And you hear that little chirp going off, and you’re like, your smoke alarms dying. Yeah. Um, those actually do really save lives. It’s crazy to say, but they do. And carbon monoxide as well. Like, um, don’t discount that. That would be my probably my number one tip. And then, um, probably the other thing that comes to mind for me again is like someone who just went through the Palisades fire is having a plan of what, you know, if you need to evacuate during a wildfire, like having a plan of where you’re going to go, what you need to bring and how you’re going to get there. Um, because, uh, it happens really fast. And so if you kind of practice that ahead of time, Um, and even, like, we live in an apartment building now, just going over with my daughter, like, okay, if your house is on fire, our apartment is on fire, where are you going to go? Um, just having a plan of how you’re going to get out of your place if it does catch on fire, um, is super important. So just just things like that, um, knowing how to shut off your utilities, it’s kind of always wild to me how many people don’t know how to do that, um, or where they are or where they are. Yeah. Just knowing how to shut off. Just your basic just gas, electrical and, um, gas, electrical and water, like, can save a lot of stuff if you have a, you know, a fire on your stove that’s spread into and you know how to shut off your gas, you can, you know, shut some of that down, so to speak. Or if you have an electrical outlet that’s sparking and catching and you know how to shut down the electrical to your house, you can stop that from happening, you know, to some extent. So, um, just knowing those things are important. But yeah, I would say, I would say those are probably my biggest tips that I tell my friends is like working smoke detector and uh, co alarm are super important. Um, knowing your utilities and having a plan if your house does catch on fire.

Jean : Okay. And just does the fire department, if you call them and you say, hey, can you come out to my house and make sure that my smoke alarm is working? Like, let’s say it’s super high up in the ceiling. Do you offer that or is that something.

Alexsander : That’s not usually. Yeah, that’s not usually what we do. Um, if if you call us because you’re having a malfunction and we show up, we’ll do that for you. But, um, if it usually if it’s chirping, that means it needs either a battery. I mean, most modern places are now having them hardwired in, so you don’t ever have to worry about a battery. Um, yeah. So, um, in that case, uh, if and if it is hardwired in usually those are through a company. So what we would say is call the company. If you’re having a malfunction, we’ll come out and make sure you’re not having a fire. But after that, we will recommend that you call whoever installed them and they’ll come and fix it. Um, if it is just chirping because it needs a battery, i mean that’s an easy fix. You just pull it out, put a new battery in and put it back up.

Alison: Um, if you can’t get out, where is the safest place to be in your home during a fire?

Alexsander : Um, I mean, if it’s. Yeah, if you if you can’t get out, probably the best thing to do is if you can get to a room that’s not involved in the fire. So, for example, if your kitchen is on fire and you can’t get out of your bedroom, close your door. Uh, our doors are rated most modern doors are rated to take some level of fire impingement and, uh, close your door. And then everybody, you usually have your cell phone with you. Let dispatch know when you call 911. Let them know what room you’re in and what part of the house you’re in. So if you’re talking to dispatch, say, hey, I’m trapped. I’m in the back, back part back room of my house. Um, you know, and you can say there’s a big there’s a big window or something like that, because we’ll get to you. If we know where you are, we will get to you. Um, but there’s so many people that they get scared and they don’t close that door because they want to try to. But, like, if you close that door, then you’re going to at least stop some level of smoke and fire from getting into that room. You basically are isolating yourself and buying yourself some time. So, um, I think what you don’t want to do is hide under a bed or like, you know, hide in a closet where we can’t find you. Um, but staying low, obviously, smoke and fire go up. So staying low, closing doors will buy yourself some time, while we’re waiting for you or coming to get you, so to speak.

Alison: And what could we do? Like, like the public to help you guys? Like, like, do you like it when people bring brownies to the station, or is there a fund to help you guys, or what can we do to support you and help you guys?

Alexsander : I mean, we’ve got a lot of support. I think you guys always really support us. We just had a tax initiative recently that everyone voted for. And so I think that’s just like we as the fire department just benefit from just like this outpouring of love that you guys have for us. Um, I mean, brownies are always fine, but we don’t expect them. Yeah, we’re we’re all, i mean, you can tell by looking at me, I’m pretty well fed. So, uh, um, but,  I mean, it’s honestly, some of the fun is just when we drive down, everybody always waves at us and wave at us and stuff like that. So, no, you guys, we feel very supported just by, you know, tax initiatives that people pass and everything like that for us.

Jean : I used to do some volunteer work at the Children’s Burn Foundation in Los Angeles.

Alexsander : Wow. Yeah.

Jean : And we would have our annual holiday party at the fire department. And, you know, the firemen would come out and embrace the children and talk about, uh, you know, how to respect a fire rather than play with it as if you know there was no consequence. But actually, um, you know, um, if a, if a candle knocks over what to do and, and things like.

Alison: That’s great.

Jean : And, uh,  you are part of an amazing organization.

Alison: Yeah.

Alexsander : Thank you.

Alison: We’re so happy to speak to you because, uh, so often, like, you just see people you’re waving on trucks, or you buy a group of firemen lunch, but you don’t get to say what’s…. You know? So thank you

Alexsander : No problem. It’s a it’s a great job. Um, it’s not for everybody, obviously. Like, um, but if you like being of service and, you know, it’s a great it’s a great job there, there’s definitely– you’re going to see some gnarly stuff-I’ve seen, I’ve seen more than my fair share of gnarly stuff in only 13 years. But you’re also going to work with a great group of guys, and, um, at the end of the day, you feel a lot of job satisfaction.

Alison:  And we’re saying guys meaning women, but just like fire people.

Alexsander : Yes. Yeah. Sorry. I’m using the guys like both genders.

Alison: I’m from the Bronx. And I say, hey, you guys, and I’m talking to Jean. So it’s the same. Yeah.

Alexsander : Yeah- more and more women are getting hired into the fire service. Um, and, uh, definitely the job is, uh, transforming and changing and not becoming just like, you know, the stereotypical, like, 1930s, what you used to see. It’s a lot more, um, representative of what our community looks like, um, so, yeah,  it’s open to everybody. Um, is that it’s hard work, but if you like working hard and helping people, it’s it’s a good job.

Jean : Nice.

Alison: And when you…. I don’t know if you feel up to talking about it, but you said you lost your home in the Palisades Fire. So that’s very– I don’t know –that brings up emotion for me. Like, how did that inform you or how did that change you? Or did it change you at all or.???

Alexsander : Oh yeah. I mean, it’s very, very, very changing. Yeah. I, um, you know,  we lived in a mobile home park on PCH there, and, uh, the entire park’s gone. I mean, other than there’s some randomly one house survived, but, you know,  we lost everything. Um, it’s definitely given me more interest and perspective into what people have gone through in previous fires. Like I said, I was on the Woolsey Fire in 2018, um, and saved a bunch of houses, but also saw a lot of houses burned down and definitely gives me a little bit more insight into, like, what those people went through. Yeah. Um, i stayed back and tried to save our, our neighborhood, but it just didn’t – it didn’t play out for us.

Alison: So sorry.

Jean : Very, very much so.

Alexsander : Yeah. Thank you.

Alison: Yeah. Should we ask our last two questions? So our podcast is called Inside Wink, and we were wondering what you think that might mean.

Alexsander : Inside wink to me would be… I’ve thought about it before because you mentioned something about it. Uh, to me, it would just be like a kind of like an inside joke between two people. Like a knowing wink. So if, uh, like, me and my wife do it a lot around my daughter, like, she’ll say, we’ll say something to my daughter, and then I’ll look at my wife and give her a wink like that. And that’s that to me is an inside wink. Like an inside joke between two people.

Alison: I love that, that’s great.

Alison: That’s perfect. Perfect answer.

Jean : And then our last question, Alex, is, do you prefer cake, pie or ice cream?

Alexsander : All right… Can I have two? Yes. My my dad’s chocolate cake and Apple Pan’s banana cream pie. Those are my favorites.

Jean : That’s old school.

Alexsander : Yeah, those are my two choices.  Yeah, my dad makes an amazing chocolate chocolate cake and banana cream pie from Apple Pan is like my other favorite.

Alison: Wow.  We have to ask your dad about the cake.

Alexsander : Oh, yeah.  you should definitely get some at some point. It’s really rich, but it’s very good.

Jean : Great.

Alison: Thank you so much. And thank you for everything. You do –  really.

Alexsander : Well. Thanks for the opportunity I appreciate it.

Jean : Your life is such a blessing and we wish you all the best, you and your family.

Alexsander : thank you so much.

Alison: Thank you so much. Have a great day.

Alexsander : You too. Bye now.

Jean : Bye.

Alison: I thought he was so wonderful, right? Because he’s so like he’s like, well it’s my job. And yeah, I enjoy fighting fires like all the things that like, I think I would just be like crying the whole time. You know??

Jean : I think, it’s so true  to how heroes move in the world that they don’t really… That’s the thing… You don’t look at yourself as a hero, like, oh, here I’m coming to save the day. Um, it’s his job, and he’s very good at it. And, uh.

Alison: Exactly. And and I and and God bless him. And God bless his family. Like. Yeah, I know my dad was deputy police commissioner, and I think that was nerve wracking for my mother. Like when even when he would go on assignments somewhere and at that day you couldn’t reach each other. And so I have a little bit of the sense of the trepidation that families. But I love that, he says, you know, that they’re really a part of that job because, everyone needs to be on board.

Jean : True. Everyone has to be okay with with their hours. And because you don’t want to be at the firehouse and then think, oh, my wife hates that I’m here, right?

Alison: I got a caller. Yeah, right.

Jean : She’s Giving me a hard time that I’m at work, so.

Jean :  It is a total family  “yes” type job. And I  would have loved to have talked to him a little bit more about the details of running, you know.

Alison: Yes.

Jean : How does it feel when you pull up to the house or a place and you see the fire? But, um. Yeah, he was great.

Alison: He was great. So thank you so much –  firemen all over the world. And and and thank you so, so much for saving us.

Jean : And and we know that there’s so much more going on that we don’t we’re still not privy to… But this was a great little peek into your world.

Alison: That’s right. And, um, if you do see a fireman, let’s all try to wave to them or buy them a cup of coffee or something. Just just give them a.

Jean : Or brownies or cookies.

Alison: Or go right to brownies.

Jean : Apple pan apple pie and banana cream pie.

Alison: That’s right. So just think about that next time you’re out and about. And thank you. Thanks, Jeannie.

Jean : Thank you, Kathleen Noone, for introducing us to to this wonderful man and to Edward Edwards, the father of Alex. Thank you all.

Alison: Thanks.  Bye bye.

Alison : You get up when the sun comes up?

Jean : Yeah, because the sun comes through my window and I am like, okay, time to get up.

Alison : I get up when the lunch truck dings. I know that’s not true. I’m a little better than that. Yeah, but I don’t. I don’t wake up when the sun comes up, though. It’s so beautiful then, though.

Jean : I love the early morning. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Alison : So do you like the late, late night?

Jean : No. I like to be completely asleep in the late nights.

Alison : I like the late, late night. I like, like one and two in the morning.

Jean : Are you awake then?

Alison : Sometimes.

Jean : Okay.

Alison : I love that time.

Jean : Yeah, well, it’s another very quiet time in the morning.

Alison : Yeah. Yes, yes.

Alison : Um, okay.  I’m very interested today to talk with Carson Toler. Right?

Jean : Yes. Have you ever heard of him before?

Alison : I just know him from Instagram a little bit.

Jean : Got it. I mean, what he has to say is really what so many people…well, what I need to hear,  be reminded of, um. He’s wonderful. Absolutely. He was wonderful.

Alison : He was raised in a mormon household and then came out as queer and then had an accident on a trampoline. Right. And, um, is now in a wheelchair. And that’s a lot to, a lot to go through. And his his spirit, i’m just so in awe of his beautiful spirit, the way I am in all of our guests.

Jean : Yeah, I think in that part is what I’m interested in talking to him about how how he really, um, devoted his, um, consciousness to to seeing beyond the physical.

Alison : Yeah, he’s kind of amazing. I can’t wait to talk to him. All right, well, here he is. Here’s Carson. Hi.

Alison : Hi. Hi.

Carson: Good to meet both of you. It’s so fun that you’re both in the same box.

Alison : Yeah, we hang out a lot together.

Carson: So cool. Okay, good.

Alison : We love each other, and, um, we’re so, we’re so interested and excited to talk to you, because you are such an introspective, thought conscious young man. And that is just what the world needs right now. And so for our, um, listeners, can you just do sort of a little bit of your in history for them?

Carson: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Oh so…. History…, okay. Um, yeah. So I grew up in a big, bustling military Mormon family. I’m the second of six kids and we’re just tight knit, we’re like a little clan. We moved everywhere every couple of years. And, um, my best friends and, uh, just like I don’t know that any of us have a friend that is closer to each other than we are. Um, if that makes sense. So, um. Yeah, I just had a, um… I was a closeted little Mormon gay boy. Right? And so that really impacted sort of the way that I went through life and my adolescence and everything. Uh, but I would say that, i always experienced a kind of existential yearning, even from a really young age, just this sense of I wanted to be up to something. I felt like I was called to be up to something. I had no idea what. Um, but I found myself with a particular restlessness of, like, there’s something really important about this, about all of this, about this life thing. And then the time I placed that in the context of my religious upbringing. And I had some answers for that about the plan to get back to God and overcome sin, and, you know, these ideas of salvation. And and that was helpful and not quite satisfying still, you know?

Carson: So I went on a mormon mission to South America. I came back and in this very pivotal year in 2013, at 23 years old, I came out. And at the end of that year, I was in an incident that broke my neck. I was in a trampoline accident. My family was there. Broke my neck and I became a low level quadriplegic. So I’m kind of between a paraplegic and a quadriplegic. I’m paralyzed from the chest down. My hands are slightly paralyzed. I have all of the other sort of complexities that come with being a quadriplegic. Um, and, everything I thought about how my life would go really changed in that year. Like I had lost the community I’d thought I’d have for a lifetime in the Mormon church. I lost my ideas about the white picket fence and a dog. And like I was determined.., i don’t know why. I was determined to have eight children, and I thought, I’d have a PhD. Yeah. Both my parents have six kids in their family, so I just decided I’d add two, I guess… So I, I sort of I was compelled on a couple of different levels to ask the question, who am I? Who is Carson? And I had these moments of, of, uh, I mean, I remember being in this dark hospital room after injury.

Carson: I mean, I still had, like, fresh stitches in the back of my neck, and I had my phone open and my hands were still there. You get some spinal shock after a spinal cord injury. So you’re more paralyzed than you will be in the future, right? As as that sort of, um, the swelling goes down. So I’m sitting there with these thumbs that barely move. And I was just. Um, sitting in the middle of the night thinking about, like, what? Who is Carson? Outside of everything I’ve ever done that I use to describe myself. I use so much of my doings in my performance. To describe who I was. Um, and yeah, I just had this note out on my phone and it just said paralyzed. Paralyzed, paralyzed. Like, I just couldn’t get that word out of my head. I was like, what does this mean? I can’t believe this is me. So all of that really proved to be the foundation of my quest to find myself, um, my quest to to answer, uh, I don’t have the answer, but the the journey to asking the question, ongoingly, who am I? What matters? What am I here to do? What do I really want?

Alison : That’s. Thank you for sharing all that. I think we we were talking and, you know, we’re torn because, we want to know about you right now…and not focus on the past… you know?   okay. So who are you? What matters? Let’s just get to the meat of it.

Carson: So good. I, I really appreciate, I appreciate that a lot because, um, those, those events were so impactful that there’s a sort of magnetism around them to go back and talk about what happened… And, um, and I have so much content of even just from this week or last week about what really matters. So I love to talk about where I’m at right now. Gosh. Um. What really matters? I’m just going to say out loud, I feel like emotional talking about this and in a way that I is important to me, but that you might be able to hear it at some point or see if you can see me….. Um, I believe, and I feel in my bones, i think a lot of people do right now, that civilization is in a, in a a window. We’re in a window of decision of what we are going to create for future generations. And it’s eminently clear that our ways of being, our values collectively, are not sufficient for perpetuating life on this earth, both for the human species and for the rest of the planet.  and I think that what really matters, is that we make some decisions collectively and personally, that will bend the trajectory of the human predicament away from a crisis and into a moment of crossing over into something new. Um, and I have and I’m constantly thinking about this…. Um, because things are speeding up.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : Yes.

Carson: And that window…. I don’t want to create artificial urgency, but there is a window in which we need to act. Um, and so I think it really matters that we grapple with that as a collective. And I think that that starts with grappling with those questions inside of ourselves first.

Alison : How do we want to live?

Carson: Yeah.

Jean : Yeah.

Carson: Yeah. How do we want to live and and all of those same existential questions of who am I? Um, where am I out of alignment with myself? Where am I living a lie? Where are my values not reflective of who I want to be?  I think of a concept a lot that I use in my work called rewilding. And rewilding is a concept in the world of eco restoration, and it’s one of the solutions to biodiversity loss that that’s being experienced on the planet. And the idea is that when you take away all of the destructive human activity that, um, and this is, you know, a more complicated concept because it does sometimes include introducing new Keystone, Keystone species and things like that. But when you remove everything that isn’t true or everything that doesn’t work, all that destructive human activity, nature knows exactly how to thrive. It knows how to recreate itself. It knows how to create these ecosystems that are just teeming with life. And when I came across that concept, it rang so true for my own life, which was, I have to take away everything that’s causing me suffering because, there is a true nature or a natural self that knows exactly how I’m supposed to live and who I am supposed to be. So when we talk about that individual work, that’s the frame that I think about it in is who am I not? So I can make a space for who I am to emerge, to create a life that’s in alignment with that.

Jean : I mean, I think for me, Carson, what what you are expressing is so much of what, um, like a type of a spiritual, a spirituality, a shift in perception from being identified as the outer body. Jean has long hair. Jean has green eyes. Jean is five. Nine. Allison is..looks this way. It’s really asking us to me what you’re saying, to look beyond the physical and see the the soul. And and I think that shift in perception, it’s up for all of us now. Like, where are we not being honoring of our soul?

Carson: Um.

Jean : You know, we we do get caught up in how we look. And and I heard in one of your podcasts about, um, especially for the masculine. It’s a very do, do, do.

Carson: Yeah. Yeah.

Jean : And and I do think this feminine energy is emerging where we’re asked to, Be… like who are we being?

Carson: Mhm.

Jean : Who do you really want to be in the world rather than you know, it’s like going deeper because we are not going to survive if we deal with life on a very superficial level.

Carson: Yeah.

Alison : Your website talks a lot about freedom. I want to understand what that means to you. And also, you said something really interesting about the rewilding… We saw that nature’s rewilding during Covid.

Carson: It’s so true. Such a perfect example. Yes.

Alison : You know.

Carson: Yeah.

Alison : It was beautiful. But what is freedom to you?  And freedom from what? Because I know what I think. But I want to hear you.

Carson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, it’s a great question, that I don’t have an answer to. Um, despite talking all about it, you know. Um, and I think that I’ll, I’ll make that disclaimer right off the top. I have spent y’all, all of my life thinking that there that coming to an answer was a measure of success, that coming to an answer was the point of a question.

Alison : Um.

Carson: I don’t think it is anymore.

Alison : Fantastic.

Carson: I actually think that the question itself is, is the prize is it’s in the exploration of that with a willingness to not know. Yeah. That keeps this constant space for discovery and transformation open. So with that being said, I’m going to like talk about freedom without giving a direct answer, but I’ll talk about some of the ways in which I experience it, which is…. You know, prior to my spinal cord injury, prior to being paralyzed, I thought of freedom as, you know, the way that we think of freedom in, in, you know, like the United States, which is like my ability to cause a change in the physical world. It’s like my freedom to to move about, to create a life, um, sort of in yeah, in time and space. Right? Whether that’s like money or whether that’s the ability to change my body, it’s like the idea of there’s a certain kind of freedom in a person’s relationship to their circumstances, if that makes sense.

Alison : Yep.

Jean : What I was struck by when I broke my neck was that there were lots of things I couldn’t change suddenly, and it was one of the first moments as a young 23 year old that I was like, oh, all of that, like power that I had to cause change in my life to like, produce outcomes. It wasn’t happening anymore. And I had used that kind of power and freedom to experience…. Yeah… I guess to experience freedom. So now I was required to find a certain kind of, it’s like what Jean was just talking about, the difference between being and doing is like, could I experience freedom in my being, in a circumstance I couldn’t change… Something that was truly fixed. Like, could I be at peace and joyful or filled with purpose in a body that I mostly can’t move and feel? And while I am in perpetual chronic pain and while while I have constant disruption? And I went on a very long quest to to answer those questions or to find freedom in those circumstances. And I ultimately found that through philosophy. Right? By asking questions about, like getting under the premises of of my beliefs, what makes me, me? Do I really need to do these things to be free? And so that’s why I’ve become so passionate about the idea of that existential freedom is because I think that humans can be at– we have the freedom to choose who to be in any circumstance. So I like to play around with both of these in my coaching practice– is what are the things that you want to change in your circumstances? While also, why don’t we look at the way that your being is in relationship to those circumstances? So we are playing around with different kinds of power and freedom. Um, but I find a lot of I find a lot of solace reminding myself, that I am free to choose, no matter what.  um. I’m experiencing this live as we are speaking, I blew out my knee last week, um, in like a horrible accident.

Jean : Ohhh.

Alison : oh, Sorry.

Carson: Yeah, it was really disturbing and difficult, and I sort of like, I blew out my knee, and they told me if you were a walking person, this would probably lead to, like, a knee replacement at some point. And I was like, right back in there being like, who am I going to be about this? This makes my life… I just became more disabled… I don’t know for how long? Um, where is freedom here? You know, playing around with the things that I don’t have power over. So.

Alison : I feel like you’re a modern day philosopher, Carson. I’m not joking.

Carson: That means a lot to me. Thank you.

Alison : I really do.

Jean : And I think, you know, the power of your thought… And what you’re sharing is um,  i think we all go through, not not to the level that, you know, you know, I’m, I’m able to get up and walk out, but like, it is like what you were saying, it’s like that freedom from the physical…. and yet we have to be in this physical. So what helps you, um, when you’re having a rough day? Like who? Is there someone? Is there,  like who do you lean in? What do you lean into to help you through the days that are more hard?

Carson: Totally. Yeah. Well, my first line of practice is to, to be aware that I am… My reflex will be to resist whatever grief or suffering is coming my way.

Alison : Mhm.

Carson: Right so,,,

Jean : You try to go– oh I’m you know,  this is really not happening.

Carson: Yeah, I know that my go to will be to be strong or power through. And I’ve done this enough now, that I know how to flag it and be like, okay something horrible just happened…. So I’m going to be particularly attuned to moments when I’m feeling rage. I feel like I need a good cry. Like  so I make sure that I’m in touch with whatever that wave wants to take me on. After I blew out this knee, I, it was probably three days and like, my anxiety was through the roof, like my head was, I could just feel like my blood pressure was up. Yeah. And my body was like, what just happened, you know? And my body is confused when pain like that happens and it responds in a particular way. Um, but, uh, yeah, I like, make sure that I have the space to grieve. And I was able, with some loved ones to, like, break down and have a good sob about it, like about three days after– the combination of fear and,  just To sadness and like and angry. And this was so stupid. This didn’t have to happen. And also, you know, I’m young, uh, and I have my whole life ahead of me. And this is only going to happen more. I’m going to be more disabled, and I’m scared. And what about all of the things I love? And I’m going to lose more? And so, to answer your question, Jean, uh, the I like, I like make sure that I’m prepared to move through those feelings. And I know that I can’t create anything if like, I need to really let my heart break. I think that’s like the wisest thing I ever chose to do after I became paralyzed is I was like, I’m going to let my heart be totally broken. Like there’s a tidal wave of grief coming. I’m not running. I’m going to lay down and I’m going to submit. I’m going to get back up and look for the people who love me.

Jean : Yeah.

Carson: So I let it wash over and it let me tell you, no matter how many times I practice it, everything in my body is like, don’t do it. Run like,right? Because it’s painful. When you visit some of like the most visceral pieces of your humanity. So I do that. I make sure that I have space to do that. Sometimes it’s like waiting to throw up when you’re nauseous. For me, when it’s like, I know this is coming, and I know if I know, I could just barf, then I’m going to like, feel better.

Alison : Yep.

Carson: And sometimes you can’t make that happen. And it just is going to happen on its own time. So there’s a patience there. I wait for it to happen. I really talk about it. I process it, um, and I do have to tap into spirit like, because when I’m afraid about my mortality, my perspective is right here in the now. And there’s fear there. There’s like hurt there. Scarcity is there. The sense that this is all wrong. Like I’m like, I just, like, ruined my life. Um, when I can take a pause and, like, get in touch with those first questions. Why am I here? What really matters? I can create a kind of elevation or an altitude above that. Where I can find a peace, that will hold me through anything. And I have to go find that sometimes, especially when I’m in the fear and scarcity and like, I’m paralyzed and I’m going to get hurt, or I could be killed so easily. Or, you know, all of those, like, big scary questions. So getting back in touch with the spirituality and I don’t know exactly like who it is or what it is that I’m being in touch with. Sometimes I think it’s like a higher self. Sometimes I think it’s like a truth in the universe or God. But, um… I’ll share with you there’s this– i’m not Christian or religious anymore. There’s a line in the book of Job after he’s been tried, like lost his family, lost his material wealth, lost his friends. He’s, like sick. He just lost everything. And he has this line where he says, and though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God. And there’s like this moment, and that’s the elevation I’m talking about, like that spirit of being like, come what may. And I’m clear about what I’m here for on this planet. And until, like my last breath, I will be engaged in that work. So take my body.

Alison : You know, you said something. You said something somewhere, i’m so. I don’t have a brain to remember. You said something somewhere about plan A and and, um, i cannot tell you how that has totally affected me. Like, on this really weirdly deep level. I can’t stop talking about it, i can’t stop thinking about it, um, my my eldest child came out as non-binary a few years ago. I thought I was the coolest mom, prior to that, I was not. I needed to learn that society had taught me incorrect lessons. And when you said plan A, all the stuff in my life that I consider trauma, I went, oh, wow… Like, I can feel it in me right now. And I thought that was one of the more powerful things I’ve ever heard. And at some points I could allow myself to go way up with it, but it kind of scares me still. Do you know? Like, it’s it’s, um…. So I wanted to thank you, and also sort of deconstruct that a little with you. The whole idea of a plan A. Um. Do you, is that still something that you carry with you? Is is that still where your your heart and soul is based? Or are you beginning to think that there maybe are no plans at all?

Carson: Yeah.

Alison : You know?

Carson: Yeah, it’s a it’s such a fun, interesting question. Like all of that. Um, yeah. The more like, the longer I’m alive, the more I feel, I feel excited, i’m not going to use the word certain, but the more I feel in my gut that what has happened to me in my life matters.  Um, even this knee thing, looks like just some stupid accident. It was a total, like, just freak accident situation, you know?

Alison : Mhm.

Carson: But even in that there’s, it seems to be imbued with some kind of spirit or meaning.

Alison : Wow.

Carson: And I no longer believe… I used to think that I was just this like, meaning making machine. I’m like this human that created meaning, you know, in order to survive. And I’m this like mechanism that just creates arbitrary meaning. I can say whatever I want, right? But I find that I can, through a spiritual practice, locate meaning in a felt kind of way, in a way that I no longer force myself to rationalize.

Alison : Oh.

Carson: Right. Because that’s the instinct is to be like, well, how do you know it’s plan A? What’s plan B? What’s plan B? Prove it.

Alison : Right. That’s exactly the fear level for me. You know?  Like what you’re saying is right.

Carson:  From what I’m hearing about what you’re sharing, and by the way, I appreciate that so much, and your reflection and just getting a, you know, a window into your own relationship with having a plan A or  and and to to give listeners some context. You know, the idea is that, things happen in a way that feels like they diverge from our, our plan or from a path. And we go, no, no, this is not part of the plan.

Jean : Yeah.

Carson: You know, um, and honestly, this circles back to our conversation about the different kinds of power and freedom.

Alison : Right, exactly.

Carson: So plan A diverges and then you’re going, whoa, wait one second. Um, and the freedom piece like that existential freedom piece is then to, like, really pause and look about what was it about your relationship to plan A that you were so interested in or attached? And what is it about this twist that feels scary?  What would it look like to incorporate that into your sense of plan A? Do you have the freedom to be wrong about your plan?

Alison : right.

Carson: Right. And these are all choices and explorations of that I think are inherently– I think they’re both cognitive and philosophical and spiritual.

Alison : Yes, yes I agree. Yeah.

Jean : Well, I, you know, it’s, uh, you’re so deep and I’m and I’m just, um, reveling in in the words that you’re saying. I feel  this awakening, this new way of being that we, we are all going through…. There’s a quote, you know,  when the tide rises, all, all boats rise. Right. It’s like it used to be that  certain people that would have to rise… But we are rise and change our perception in the way that we’re being in the world. But now the energies are just coming in full force and we’re just all asked to to level up. Yeah. You know, and and I was sharing with Allison before you got on that, you know, it doesn’t have an event. Doesn’t have to happen directly to us, we can learn and be grown by our friends. Like, you know, Allison’s child coming out was was huge for me, too, because of my… I thought, wow, I really assume a lot that people move in the world this way. And and for you, Carson being in a wheelchair… Do you notice that a lot as you move in the world? Like, do you sense people treating you differently or…?

Carson: Yeah.

Jean : Yeah.

Carson: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And you’re asking just to be clear about sort of like my, uh, my experience of how just people treat me as a visually disabled person.

Jean : yeah. Like when you’re out in the world, do you? Yeah.

Carson: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I’ve become a little desensitized to it because it’s been happening for so long.

Jean : Yeah.

Carson: Um, I had I was with I was with a new friend, like a gym buddy a couple of months ago. And we, we rolled through the gym and he, like, turned to me. He’s like, does everyone smile at you like that all the time? Because there’s this sort of infantilizing cutie smile that I get. It’s like, ah, the little guy in the wheelchair, you know, like, oh, you’re so amazing for being here. And, um, it used to enrage me, mostly because it would, like, bring up my own stuff of wanting to be like, don’t you dare look at me like that. I am, I am just like you. I’m not different. And, um. Yeah, I’m so used to it now. And I know how to be in a dance with some of these preconceived ideas. Um. And I know how to speak through them or around them, or address them in ways that, um, took me a second to learn how to do that, because I wasn’t so sure about what was going on or how to speak to it. But yeah, so so if I want to correct something, I know how to do that. And, um. Yeah. And I know how to take it, like, not take it personally.

Alison : Do we do you think we live in a loving world?

Carson: I think that the that the cosmos is driven by love as like a fuel, like an actual force. So yes. And I think that for a lot of reasons, um, we’ve all become players in this cultural game of prioritizing power, utility, efficiency, climbing the ladder, personal success in a way that undermines love. I actually think that’s the nature of the crisis that we’re in, is it’s a, um, it’s a crisis of intimacy, a crisis of love that has created these systems. It’s I mean, you can’t be filled with love and, um, tear down half the trees on the planet. Right.

Alison : Right.

Jean : Yeah, yeah, I was to to what you’re saying… I was going to ask you, what what do you feel is going on in our world today with, with all like… But you’re you’re talking about that right now.

Carson: Mhm.

Jean : Um yeah.

Carson: You know when I — so, so in 2020, no like 2021. Um I, I knew all about the climate crisis. I knew about what was happening. But then I like actually dove into the research and I bought a book and it ruined my whole life because, I finally learned about what was happening and my training as a coach, and also like my philosophical training, always has taught me to come back to this question of being. The ontological question. The being precedes the doing. And that’s super simplistic. It’s not a rule, because all of those things sort of like live together and flow…. The being, in the doing. But I have found it so much more effective to look at,  who am I being that has me producing these results in my life, right? So then when I look to everything that was happening on the in the climate, I became fixated on the question, where did this happen? In how human beings, the human species defines what it means to be a human?

Jean : Mhm.

Carson: Like where did we make some decisions about who we are that would lead us to be capable of destroying our home.

Alison : Right.

Carson: Because there had to be something. So, um, when you ask, you know what, what, what I think is happening? I have I have something else I want to say, but I’ll finish this thought, which is…. In certain points throughout history, humans decided that we weren’t animals, right? Uh, like the, like, dualist theory that has the mind separate from the body. And actually the body sort of like being an enemy.   Like something to overcome, something to fight against. And that the human mind was like this God power that was above all of it. And so this separation of nature and the human mind is what in part allowed us to start to begin this mechanistic view of, oh, they’re just trees. They’re not sentient beings. They’re just animals. It’s just water. It’s, you know. Right. And we see ourselves as divorced from the natural world in a way that would allow us to create this artificial separation. Um, for for anyone who’s who’s interested, I found a podcast, um, called The Great Simplification, with Nate Hagens.  And he talks about the systems view of what’s happening to, in what he calls the human predicament.   And he talks about all of the different dynamics that have us be where we are. And he calls it the human predicament also known as the meta crisis, which is the view of the many crises we face that threaten civilization in, in, you know, um, important ways. Um, his work looks at everything from like the, the human question,  to the social structure question, to the infrastructure question around technology…. So it’s like, it brings science and spirit and philosophy and psychology all together in a brilliant way that has really emboldened me in my own work, um, and equipped me with a lot of understanding on how to tackle this issue. Um, but I believe my work and my contribution here is to support people in answering and searching for that question…. the ontological piece, who am I?

Alison : You know, I think that’s- you’re fantastic… But, other than that, I think that, um, I feel that we’ve lost the communal sense of responsibility to each other for the planet, for consciousness. I feel that at some point that left us,  I think  human beings had it for a while, and maybe it was reflected in indigenous peoples, but I feel like exactly what you’re saying, you know? Do you want, to move around? We’re almost done.

Carson: Oh, perfect. I’m just, uh, I get I’m just fidgety in my chair. Like, this wheelchair is very helpful for moving around. And when I’m stationary, it’s not totally comfortable. So that’s all you’re seeing?

Alison : Yeah, we’re almost done, though. We just. You are? I first of all, I wish I could be there to hug you.

Jean : Yes. Me too.

Alison : I just want to give a shout out to your parents, because I think they helped you through times. From what I read. And I just think that is so beautiful, especially from maybe a mormon background. I’m not really familiar, but I wanted to give them a shout out and just applaud the fact that you’re thinking so deeply about things that really affect us all, because I think that that kind of thought, even just saying it here has a ripple effect.

Jean : You are a thought leader…You are a powerful, benevolent thought leader.

Carson: Thank you.  I receive that… Like, thank you. Um, I have to confess, I have been spending so much of my time in a fallow period…Being with these concepts and frankly, doing them myself, like I am the number one, live to win, blue ribbon… Give me the gold star. I want to beat out the competition. Like, that’s – like individualist, i’ll do it myself. I’ll do it better than you. Like, that’s how I grew up. And it’s how I don’t know, however, I wound up in the world, had me really be interested in playing that game in society.

Alison : Yeah.

Carson: And I have been doing like, this constant unraveling for the last 11 years to, to find and play around with other ways of being, so that I’m not beholden to those games that were causing me so much suffering.

Alison : Right.

Carson: Um, the confession part is I’ve been this fallow period, and, uh, I’m just a hair’s breath away from sending a final book proposal in about these topics. I want to create community around the experience of like a collective rewilding. It is so hard to do alone.

Alison : Yeah.

Carson: Like, to both of your, both of you talked about what it was like to actually be in community in the way that someone else’s struggles could, like, be learn from them in community, And so my dream is to create this movement of humans who are rewilding. Separately and together in a way that we start to contribute to our own tiny corner of the universe where we give our love in our own unique ways. Right? But like as a collective, to create this crossing moment for us.

Alison : You know, this whole time I’ve been thinking, I hope this guy writes a book.

Carson: I love writing more than anything. And I tell you, I’ve been I’ve been sitting on this for a very long time, waiting for waiting for the moment. And it’s coming.

Alison : Well, can we interview you again when the book comes out?

Carson: Oh my gosh. Yes.

Alison : Excellent… We have two final questions. Our name of our podcast is Inside Wink, and we were wondering what you think that means.

Carson: You know, I was thinking about thinking about this…. Um, I think an inside wink- feels like, i don’t know if there’s a right answer to this.

Alison : They are all right.

Carson:  Speaking of the answers, um, I’m telling you, I still have that reflex. I’m like, oh, what’s the– give me the A plus.  hahahah   So inside wink I think of the moment, when you and someone you care about or love, um, have knowledge of something, or like this, like it’s it’s sort of like, it’s not like an inside joke, right? But it’s like a moment of of knowing where you share a little a cue – to give them a wink, like, I see you. We’re on the same page, like a little cue of, you know how it is when you’ve got someone and, um, you’re both experiencing the same thing. You have the  both have the same, like, little moment, and you share a little wink as a playful nod to each other. That’s what I think of.

Alison : That’s perfect.

Jean : That’s beautiful.

Alison : That’s so you!

Carson: Something playful…. Something also generous because, it’s usually like, you know, when you’re humoring something or you, you don’t want to outright be like, you know….

Jean :  I love that.

Alison : Thank you.

Jean : Yes. Okay. And this is really a very significant question. Uh, do you prefer cake, pie or ice cream?

Carson: Oh Man? Pie.

Alison : Really?

Carson: Pie, I think yeah, it’s because it’s got, you know, I can tell you a cream pie, like a coconut cream, a banana cream.

Alison : Oh.

Carson: Man. Yeah, I’ll go for a pie any day.

Alison : Yeah. That’s good.

Carson: Instagram has decided that I love watching people eat delicious pastries.  And so it’s all I’m seeing right now on my feed.

Alison : It’s pastry porn.

Carson: Yeah, exactly. Like, this dude is so hungry.

Alison : I can’t thank you. We can’t thank you enough. You really are an amazing person.

Carson: Thank you so much. Yeah. Thanks for you…yea…go ahead.

Jean : You’re a blessing. you walk this world as a blessing.

Alison : And I can’t wait.

Jean :  And and even though you have your challenges, I, I know that, um, there is this higher power that is loving you and and supporting you and i’m so moved by this, by this, our interview.

Alison : And I can’t wait to see what comes up and just sign us up for the rewilding.

Carson:  oh, great. I can’t wait.  I can’t wait. I feel like we’re already in it together. And um,  I feel being with you, to even across from this screen. Like, I feel, i feel the connectedness and the being up to something that matters. And I’m just so grateful for this space you made for me to talk about where I’m at right now. Um, so, so thank you,

Alison : Because that’s where you are right now is so exciting.

Jean : And it’s full of possibilities.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : It’s full of infinite Possibility. And you are a demonstration of that…I am, Alison is,  everyone everyone listening? You know,  we are.

Alison : It’s what you said. It’s the choices.

Jean :  exactly what you said.

Alison : Thank you so, so, so much.

Jean : I can’t wait to hear….

Alison : I can’t wait to hang out with you more.

Carson: I can’t wait, thank you.

Alison : Thank you so, so much.

Alison : Have the most beautiful day.

Carson: I will you to. We’ll talk more.

Alison : Bye bye.

Jean : Okay.

Alison : Okay.

Jean : Well, yeah. That was very moving.

Alison : I don’t know. I felt so much looking at him and listening to him. I really felt like I was in the presence of, like, a philosophical thinker for our time.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : He’s so, um, right on the edge of something so like almost ethereal that and allowing us to just question when he said, I always thought that the answer was the point, but now I think the question is the point. Like that’s…

Jean : Yes.

Alison : I don’t know. I think he’s so interesting and fascinating and kind of exciting to be around.

Jean : Yes, He has a wisdom about him that is um, really expansive.

Alison : Yes. I mean, I am really interested to see the whole time I was thinking, this man has to write a book because he has to have, like, some sort of legacy that people can read on and on and, um, and to  be such a young man.  um, I don’t know, I just feel, I feel so inside, so charged.

Jean : I, feel like really quiet inside. Like in sort of like an irreverent type of way. Yeah. Wow. Um, I really can’t wait to do the transcription and hear all the words, the words and everything, but my goodness. And I’m so glad. Allison, you acknowledged his parents. That was so great.

Alison : And I hope he likes them.

Jean : Yeah, I think he does. I think from a couple of the interviews I heard. So and I also want to say, Allison, that first question out the gate, that that was really wonderful of you to ask him that.

Alison : Thanks.

Jean : I just want you to know that.

Alison : You know, to go back, like, let’s go forward, like let’s solve something.

Jean : I think he’s so appreciated that. And, um, you know, you open the door to a deeper level. So you were great.

Alison : Thank you, Jean…. That’s so sweet of you.

Jean : It’s true.

Alison : That’s so sweet. And I do have to say, now I do…. I really want some pie.

Jean : Okay, well, we’ll get you some pie.  Like, get this woman some pie.

Alison : I was like, yes, I’m with you everywhere, carson. Let’s do it!  I hope you guys really enjoyed him as much as we did. He’s just really so special. And, Carson, thank you so, so much.

Jean : You are truly wonderful in every sense of the word.

Alison : and can’t wait to see what else you’re up to.

Jean : Absolutely.

Alison : Have a great day, everybody!

Jean : Bye.

Alison : Bye.