Jean : Check.

Alison : Check. All good. How are you doing on this rainy day?

Jean : I’m good. I’m really excited this morning.

Alison : Me too.

Jean : This is going to be so much fun. We’re talking to Neale Donald Walsch, who really had such a huge, um, phenomenal success back, like, in the early 90s. He wrote the Conversations with God series, and and that book really took off. And it shows… It shows how thirsty the world is for this topic.

Alison : Um, and I, you know, before I really realized how much all this resonates with me, I remember reading Conversations with God, and being like, oh, this is so cool.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : You know, like, I just I loved it because it was so accessible, right? You know.

Jean : Right. So different from from a traditional, um, Catholic religion as you and I were raised.

Alison : Definitely. You know, there was no conduit. There was no in-between guy. Mhm. You know, there was no agent. Yeah. You know, so it was great. I can’t wait to I can’t wait to talk to him.

Jean : It’s going to be exciting.

Alison : Yeah. All right. Well here we go. Neale Donald Walsch.

Jean : Well, we are so happy to see someone that has made a huge impact on not only my life….

Neale: Not only my life, but what?

Jean : Uh, but in the lives of….

Neale: Why did you… Why did you stop like that?

Jean : You weren’t looking up, and I thought the audio was off.

Neale: Oh, no. I heard every single thing that you said, and you’d be in big trouble because my lawyer will be calling you in the morning.

Jean : Okay.  That’s a wonderful way to start off our podcast about love and God. Oh my gosh, Neale. This is really a treat.

Alison : Amazing. Thank you so much.

Neale: It’s lovely to be here with you guys. How can I be of service?

Alison : Well, I’m Allison

Jean : And I’m Jean, and and I don’t know, you probably don’t remember. I don’t want to speak for you, but I attended a workshop of yours in Sedona, Arizona, 20 years ago.

Neale: Yes. And I made a pass at you. And you, and you declined. So I’ll never forgive you.

Alison : Wow. You do remember,

Jean : You know. What can I say? But. But, uh, that was a that was a, you know, you really, uh, made my day and you’ve made my life. Your teachings have had, as I mentioned, a profound impact. And truly, Neale, whenever someone says, um, you know what started you, Jean, in,  on your path to spiritual and spirituality. I always say ,onversations with God by Neale Donald Walsch.

Neale: Your check is in the mail.

Jean : Okay.

Alison : I loved, uh, God talk. I too was so reading the minute it came out. Conversations with God and I have so many questions to ask about this-, in your belief and your idea and what you’re communicating, is that we are not separate from God. We are God. We are emanations of the divine. Am I correct?

Neale: That’s my understanding for sure.

Alison : And then I wonder, when we have a negative thought or something happens that brings up the anger or an emotion that isn’t like the pure love that God gives us? Is that also God?

Neale: Everything is God. There is nothing that in my understanding, there’s nothing that is not God. But here’s, uh, here’s the solution to what I used to call the God dilemma. You’re bringing up the God dilemma. Um, God has never required us to think a certain way or feel a certain way, or be a certain way, or do a certain thing. The greatest gift that God has given us, in my understanding, is free will. And, uh. And so, um, which is, by the way, the greatest gift we could give our own children not to dominate everything they think, say or do. Not to withhold our love if they do not think, say, or do what we imagine that they should think, say, or do. We never withhold our love from them. So, um, when we act in a way which is not divine, to answer your question directly, yes, that is part of God, because part of God is what we would call what you and I would call the imperfection, uh, of ourselves or of our actions, of our behaviors, of our thoughts, of our words. But you see, God sees nothing as imperfect. Let me give you an example that God gave me so I could understand, so that I could understand in my minuscule little mind.

Neale: God said to me, Neil, do you recall when you were in third grade and you were learning your multiplication tables. I said, yes, I do recall that. In fact, I remember failing the test. I didn’t pass the test. God said was was that was it perfect or imperfect that you didn’t pass the test? Well, in retrospect, it was perfect because it caused me to study harder and to ultimately learn my multiplication tables. I said, ah, so imperfection is perfection in the long run because, it leads you to your own improvement, or in the case of your life, to your own evolution. So the reason that it’s easy for me to say yes, even in our imperfection we are God, is that God wants for us to undergo the process by which we evolve and become the next grandest version of who we really are. Now, God could have, of course, created us that way to begin with. God could have…. Well, now that I think about it, he did create me that way.

Alison : That’s true. hahah

Neale: But not not very many of us have been created perfectly from the beginning. So. hahahaha

Alison : Everyone except you. That’s right. That’s right.  hahah

Jean : As it should be.

Alison : That’s right.

Jean : And it is, and always will be.

Alison : That  helps me because i too believe that everything is God and everything, and, um, and yet I know that as a human, I judge what I should be feeling and what I shouldn’t. So then I guess God says, well, until you grow out of it, even that judgment is perfect.

Neale: In the sense that it leads you in the wrong direction, You know, when I when I turned the wrong way on a one way street, it’s perfect that I did so because I learned the next time I come to that corner, do not turn left. It’s a one way street going right?

Alison : Right. Yeah.

Neale: So and I actually did that once in my life. I actually mistakenly turned literally turned the wrong way on a one way street. And the cars were coming at me and wondering, what in the hell was I doing driving against the whole flow of traffic. And of course, I pulled off to the side of the road as fast as I could, and then I managed to turn my car around, realizing, oh my God, you know…. But I can tell you that every time I came to that corner for the rest of my life, I never made a left turn because I realized, you know, that it’s a one way street. Going the other way.

Alison : Right.

Neale: So, um, I think that what God seeks and what God desires, yeah, it could be wrong about all of this, but my understanding is that what God desires is to not to simply create perfect human beings or perfect entities from the beginning, but to give each soul in the cosmos, of course, there are souls of all the other planets in the universe to grant each soul in the cosmos the gift of creating itself in the next grandest version of who it understands itself to be. Or, to put it more specifically, the gift of growth. To deny your own child the gift of growth would be to deny your own child the most wondrous feeling of fulfillment that life could give one. So, uh, this… I could be wrong about all of that, but that’s my understanding.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : It’s beautiful. I think that also relates to how really, no one likes to be told what to do. And I mean, our parents do tell us what to do. And where is it that someone says, oh, okay, I’m going to do that. We seem to somehow want to learn the hard way or….

Neale: Well, I wouldn’t call it learning the hard way. I say we, I don’t think we somehow want to learn the hard way. I do think we somehow want to do it for ourselves, because I think intuitively we understand that learning or moving forward by experience is far more beneficial and far more powerful than simply because someone else has told us.

Jean : Exactly, or someone just does it for us. It feels so much more fulfilling when we show up, we do it…. We learn for ourselves. I mean, that’s as you mentioned, that’s just this….

Neale: and the wise parent understands that. And so the wise, the wise parent, even allows the child to make his or her own mistakes and stand back, you know, and not not tell, you know, the child. Oh, no, don’t do that. Don’t do that or don’t don’t put that down or don’t do this or don’t do that… But unless it’s life threatening, the wise parent will allow a child to make her own mistakes, knowing that he grows much more profoundly, much more rapidly, and much more fulfillingly through that process.

Jean : So true.

Alison : Yes.

Neale: Well, we that was the difference between my mother and my father is really fascinating. My mother understood everything I’m telling you. She let me make my own mistakes, and she she would she would say, you know, don’t don’t don’t worry, honey, it’ll all work out. Uh, but my father spent most of my teenage years trying to stop me from making mistakes.

Alison : Right?

Neale: And what what that did was it postponed my learning until I was 23 and 24 because, I tried… You know, I spent my teenage years trying to stop myself from making mistakes.  and then I wound up making them when I was 21, 22, 23 and 24. Not a good time to to make mistakes because then I was making mistakes, frankly, that hurt other people and ultimately mistakes that hurt even my own children. Until I saw what was going on and realized what was happening.

Alison : And as a parent, were you more like your mother or your father?

Neale: Well, I started out exactly like my father, but, uh, as I saw what I was doing and the impact it was having, I ultimately became very, very much like my mother and allowed my children, as they grew older to, you know, step forward in their own life in the way that would cause them the most profound opportunities for growth. And I didn’t tell them what not to do, or what I think they should do.

Jean : Not always easy because we, you know, we want to protect those that we love. But, um.

Neale: If it’s a serious, you know, as I said, that’s why that’s why I put it put a disclaimer on my statement if it’s life threatening or if it’s threatening to, you know, the safety of a person, but, you know, if it threatens their happiness, maybe they need to learn what unhappiness is.

Jean : I do remember reading– you wrote about your mom so beautifully in your book.

Neale: Um, I had the i had the most wonderful mother in the entire universe.

Jean : Oh, yes.

Neale: Do you know what she said to me when she was dying? We all knew that she was dying. They gave us five minutes each. Her sons and her husband. My dad, they gave… The doctor said, okay, five minutes. You got five minutes. Because she may not make it through the night. She’s very near death. And so I went in there with my five minutes from with my mom, knowing that it might be the very last time I ever talked to her. She said, oh, sweetheart, don’t cry. She saw the tears in my eyes. She said, sweetheart, don’t cry. I know where I’m going. I know what it’s going to be like. So you must make me a promise. I said anything, anything. Mom, what can I promise you? She said dance on my grave. Well, I promised her that I would. And eight weeks later, I flew to Wisconsin, where she was interred. Went to the cemetery, looked to the left and to the right to make sure that no one was watching. They would think I was doing something incredibly sacrilegious.

Alison : Yes.

Neale: Got up on the mound of dirt. She was buried and did a soft shoe. Did you literally danced on her grave? I said, this is for you, mom.

Jean : Yeah.

Neale: Because she wanted me to celebrate that she was back home with God.

Jean : Mhm.

Alison : In this book, you talk a little bit about, um, death. And, um, I had a question. When, when, and I love your I love your interpretation of the Kingdom of God. So I got the sense that when we die, you’re thinking is that we’re done, and I’m wondering, even if somebody’s young like like children. Like how how does that work? Do you understand my question?

Neale: Well, there’s no such thing as a young soul. The body may be young. The body may be only three or 8 or 10 years old, but the soul is hundreds of years old.  I mean, you your soul has been here from the very beginning, and it will be here eternally. Your soul is the eternal part of you. So, um, when this when this, when the body of a 3 or 6 or an 8 or 10 year old ceases to function physically, the soul returns to the realm of the spiritual and reclaims its identity, if you please, as a fully, completely developed soul. It’s not a three year old soul. It’s not up there going, oh, I wonder what’s going on here?

Alison : Right.

Neale: This soul understands everything perfectly.

Alison : So it means that that that three year old say, was  it’s perfect that that’s that three year old was done here learning.

Neale: Have you read the book, Home With God?

Alison : A long time ago.

Neale: You may remember in Home With God, it says no one dies at a time or in a way that is not of their choosing.

Alison : I remember that.

Neale: That includes that includes a seven year old.

Jean : And you mentioned in that book, Neale, that, uh, the soul also is collaborating with the with the other souls around them.

Alison : Mhm. Right.

Neale: Yes.

Jean : This is the time.

Neale: And, and it might be that a seven year old soul  chooses to leave its physical body as a cooperative venture with the souls of those around him,  assisting them in learning how to deal with grief and loss. So we don’t, we don’t know what caused a soul to leave the body, but the soul is very clear.

Alison : Thank you.

Neale: Yeah, there there are no mysteries to the to the soul. The soul has no mystery of any of any kind. But the mind brings many mysteries to our daily experience, in the biggest of which is how can I live into and demonstrate the wisdom of my soul?

Jean : I mean, that is such a pround question if you really think about that and and really dedicate your life to being a messenger of that truth of your soul. And, you do mention that in the book that Alison and I just read, God Talks and that first there has to be an acceptance, right? An acceptance of your desire to to be a messenger to of your soul.

Neale: And acceptance as well of your identity, to accept that I am, in fact, an individuation of Divinity. I wish that I was living in that way every moment of my life. I’m not, but I’m getting closer. And you know, when I leave here, I hope that those who know me personally will say he grew into a larger version of himself. And I want four words on my gravestone. He tried his best.

Alison : And then PS,  let’s dance.

Neale: Yeah. Exactly.

Jean : Yeah. –  you know, I think that your sharing of your personal struggles really help people, uh, embrace their own and, and have a sort of liberating feeling that, that they’re, there’s something more going on here. You know, we all make mistakes. It is like that, phrase-  to err is human to forgive is Divine. But, um. And no but…but, it is really that re-identification of I am, I am the living presence of God and not…. And it sounds so lofty and high, but it actually is a great humility in that, you know, and I think, Neale, you really have demonstrated that in all your books, you know, it’s such a love letter to the soul. Every one of your books and can you… I want to just talk a little bit about your most recent book, God Talk and what I took… One of the things I took away was really the benefit for my own soul growth, to spend time with God in in a conversation, just not me in prayer, which is usually a one way thing, you know? So, um, do you do you talk? Do you have conversations with God every day or now? And?

Neale: No, I’m not going to pretend that I do, because I don’t. But whenever I sit down, the real question is how? When I do have conversations with God, how do I do that? For me, it’s through my writing. When I sit down to write and I’ve written 41 books, God Talk is my 41st published book. And when I sit down to write, I kind of step into that posture of having a conversation with God. I sometimes even say out loud, okay, what? What is it you want to say here now… What can I, what can I bring through? What can I help you bring through? so I that’s how I have my conversations with God, which is why I’m always writing. This is why I’ve written the 41 books, because I refuse to give up that process through which I have my own conversations with God. So, you know, I’m in the process of writing a book even as we speak. And, uh, my intention when we finish this particular interaction is to get back to my keyboard and continue moving that latest book forward.

Alison : I love that you’re still writing.

Jean : Yeah,

Alison : I love that you’re doing that.

Neale: And I want to be clear that I don’t I don’t feel myself doing it for others. It’s not like this beneficial thing that I’m doing for the human race. I’m clearly doing it for myself. All of us do what we do for ourselves, especially when we are doing it. And and we know that a great many other people might benefit, then we’re really doing it for ourselves, because it’s giving us an opportunity to experience and to express, to demonstrate who we really are. Which is why we came here.

Alison : In this book, you say that God’s always talking and always willing to talk and with bated breath…. I guess…waiting to waiting to hear from us and waiting for a communication. Um, what’s the difference between getting a, ” no”  to a question or a prayer and or and or it being unanswered. Does God ever not answer a prayer, like or a conversation or a question?

Neale: No, it’s just a question of whether we hear the response and whether we understand God. God never says no.

Alison : God never says no.

Neale: Yeah. I was told in my conversations with God, God says, Neale there’s only one word in my vocabulary -YES.

Alison : That’s kind of incredible. So how how are….

Neale: Well, let me ask you, let me ask you this… Uh, have any of either one of you… This is a personal question, so please forgive the personal nature of the question, but if either one of you ever been in love with another person.

Alison : Yes.

Neale: Ahh, you both have experienced being in love with another person?

Alison : Yes.

Jean : Yes.

Neale: Have you both ever experienced being so in love with that other person that you would actually think in your mind and maybe even say out loud, “sweetheart, I want for you what you want for you always. Not just once in a while. Not just now and then, but always. I want for you what you want for you.”

Jean : That’s such an act of freedom. Which is really…

Alison : I want to say yes, but it’s, no.

Jean :  I mean, like to… I don’t think, I could… Yeah. Like, that’s such a great question because it looks at where do I have my, my little, uh, I don’t want to say it’s not a judgment, but my, my non allowance of pure love, because that sounds like pure love.. What you’re asking.

Neale: That is pure love. Pure love needs, expects, requires and demands nothing in return.

Jean : Yeah.

Neale: We can’t even love the person on the pillow next to us that way, unless we can. Yeah, I’ve gotten to the point. I don’t want to brag. I’m just saying. Because it took me not. Not only am I not bragging, I’m kind of ashamed about it because it took me, whatever, 75 years. But, uh, finally, in my late 70s, and as I moved further into my 80s, I’m able to say to the person on the pillow next to me, I need, expect, require and demand nothing of you. I want for you what you want for you always. Because I love you. If I love you because of what I can get from you, then I’m not loving you at all. I’m simply loving me, using you as a means by which I can receive love. But I refuse to. I refuse to use my wife as a means by which I can receive, but I think I want to receive. So I’ve eliminated need from my experience. But you know, it’s easy for me to say at the age of 81 or 75 or whatever, you know, I made that turn in the road. But I been able to say to my wife, now for the better part of our 17 years together, I only want for you what you want for you. I want nothing for you that you do not want for you. Please don’t do anything that you think you have to do because you have to do it for me. Do it for me if you want to, but not because you feel you have to.

Jean : That’s beautiful.

Jean : And look… That you can actually say that, and that you found someone that you can really give that that pure, that the pure love. Let’s talk about a soul… Soul marriage… You know, that you offer complete freedom to another individual and that she doesn’t need to to take care of you, and you don’t need to take care. I mean, you do in a in a certain way, but like, you can offer such a, a gift, you know, that’s really.

Neale: You know, I don’t I don’t I don’t even need to do it in a certain way. You said just a minute ago. Well, I know you need to do it in a certain way. No I don’t.

Alison : Yeah.

Neale:  And she doesn’t either. My wife takes care of me beyond anything you could imagine. She’s given me the best years of my life beyond anything I could ever have thought would be possible in a relationship, but not because she needs to. It’s her nature. It’s who she is. It’s simply who she is.

Alison : So before you made that turn in the road. What? How did you do that?

Neale: BY realizing how many times I’d failed doing it my own way. When I realized how many times I had failed not living that way. I finally, I finally decided. You know what? I always thought that my failed relationships was over there.  If they would only get it right. If she could only stop acting that way. I always thought it was across the room. And then at some point after my next failed marriage, I had, you know, I had one, I had a failed marriage before this one, actually two… Two failed marriages before this one. So actually three. I had three failed marriages before this one. So that’s actually four,  I had four failed marriages before this one. So when I got. Wait a minute. (so much laughing between everyone) (Neale pretends to call someone on his cell phone)

Alison : Wait. Come on. hahahaha

Neale: How many failed marriages did I have? Oh, six. Okay, thanks,…. I lost track… I actually I didn’t have six girlfriends, I had actually six, put a ring on their finger  marriages.

Alison : Wow.

Neale: At least I couldn’t be accused of being, you know, an emotionally, you know, an unwilling male, not willing to make a commitment.

Alison : Exactly.

Neale:  I was willing to make a commitment, but I didn’t know what I was committing to. I thought I was committing to committing to getting from them as much as they could give me.

Jean : Yeah.

Neale: But, um, then after the sixth marriage failed, I said, okay, obviously there’s something I don’t clearly understand here. The understanding of which would change everything. That’s when I made that turn in the road. And when my wife, of course, my seventh wife, she knew that I had six failed marriages. You know, I thought who would marry somebody who’s had six failed marriages? Who would do that? But she had such compassion and such a level of consciousness that she was able to see that that’s not who I was NOW. And so she stepped into the marriage. That was 17 years ago.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : Is this your longest marriage?

Neale: Oh, by far the longest marriage. Before that was, like, seven years.

Alison : Wow.

Alison : Congratulations.

Jean : Yeah, I did, I did look up your wife, and she seems truly beautiful. Uh, she seems very poetic. The little bit that I was just doing some research and, um… So what a what a beautiful, truly God inspired marriage that you have now. And I remember reading, I don’t know what book it was, Neale, but in your Conversations with God, it was like 1 or 2, the first 1 or 2 books, God says to you, well, you you may want to put a little thought into those marriages. And and it’s so true. You know, we- I think your books have well, they’ve made me think more deep.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean :  like, think about what am I doing? Is this how I want to present myself? Is this really what I want to give my energy to? You know who you know. What is it? Who? What is it that wants to really be out there?

Neale: It’s Experienced. What is it that wants to be experienced?

Jean : Exactly. Is it is it someone that’s insecure, or is it, is it the grandest vision of the greatest version of myself, you know? And it, um…

Neale: That is, what I learned from conversations with God is that, life has nothing to do with me. It’s not even about me. God said, Neale sweetheart, your life is not about you.  It’s about everyone whose life you touch and the way in which you touch it.  And when you step into the living of that, you will realize that in in a universal sense, your life is about you, for an elegant reason, there’s only one of us in the room.

Alison : There’s no separation, which is just always so awe inspiring to me. Because when I forget that I’m I, my mind can make myself miserable.

Neale: Differences do not need to create divisions. Contrasts do not need to create conflicts. So the fact that we are different does not mean that we are divided, any more than the fingers of my hand are divided from my hand itself. They’re all different, but they’re all part of the of the same body. So we are all fingers on the hands of God.

Alison : Now, what do you make of the time that we’re living through right now?

Neale: I think that it’s the best possible time for our advancement as a civilization. I think it’s providing us the grandest opportunity that humanity may ever have to evolve fully into its true identity. And I think that, uh, the process is causing us to to look deeply at the question. Is this who I really am? Is this who we as a civilization? Is this who we as a species really are? Are we really people who kill thousands and thousands of others over a border dispute? Because we can’t agree on where the border line should be between our two countries. So we’re going to kill around 45,000 people to make the point. I mean, are we really a species that withholds desperately needed medication from poor people in underdeveloped countries because they can’t pay the price for penicillin or whatever the medication might be? Is that really who we are? And so, I think that we are behaving in a way that raises the most fundamental questions. Is this who I really am? Is this who we as a species really are? And is this who we choose to be? And many people are answering, yes, this is who we are. This is who we choose to be because they’ve simply forgotten who they really are. So it’s up to those of us who have remembered that as we have become a member once again, of the body of God. So we have re. We we’ve reclaimed our membership in the body of God. And so it’s up to those of us to become what I’ve come to call idea heroes, to be an idea hero. Galileo was an idea hero. He he said, he dared to say in 1623 that the earth revolved around the sun, whereas the church was teaching that the sun revolved around the earth. Because the church taught that the earth and its people were God’s greatest creation. And so they condemned Galileo put him under house arrest, actually. And they he took 356 years, I think somewhere in there for the Catholic Church to renounce its own condemnation of Galileo, to withdraw the condemnation and to proclaim that the church was wrong. Galileo was right and that his soul was no longer officially condemned. So we still have a you know, we still have a civilization that thinks, to use one striking example, that it’s appropriate for governments to kill people intentionally in order to teach people that killing people intentionally is not okay.

Alison : Right.

Jean : Yes.

Neale: We call that the death penalty. So in order to teach you that you shouldn’t kill people on purpose, we kill. We kill people on purpose.  Thereby… So our government says, don’t do as I do, do as I say. Don’t do as I do, do as I say. And we fail to see the contradiction. We can’t even see the contradiction. Neal… The death penalty is nothing more than simple justice. After all, God himself said, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But what if we are wrong about that? What if God never said anything like that? What if God never said I love you, if…. What if God never said an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. So that’s, those are the questions that I raise in all of my writing, including the book that I wrote called, The God’s Solution, which I gave away to people for free on the internet.

Alison : Really?

Neale: Sure.

Alison : I love that.

Neale: Yeah. I just tell them, send me an email and say, I’d like to receive a digital copy of the author’s manuscript, and I send it back to them by return mail the same day. I do answer my own email, and when I get a request, I get about 20 requests a day for that book and I send them right back out. I don’t know that it’s you. I don’t even know that it’s generous. It’s just. What would I describe? It’s practical.

Jean : Yeah.

Neale: If I want the world to change, I can’t simply stand there and say, I want the world to change. If I feel I have something to offer that can help the world see itself in a new way, then for goodness sake, offer it. Give it away.

Jean : Well, that is part of the spirit- that you see that’s the wisdom within you, sees that this is this act of of giving the book away is Is beneficial.

Alison : So for someone that is not you, not not, uh, have has a proclivity towards writing or not at your place in the world. How did they start? How how do they start to take these steps to to be an idea, an idea person? Idea messenger?

Neale: Mahatma Gandhi answered that question. He said, be the change you wish to see in the world. You don’t have to be a best selling author. You don’t have to be a lecturer. You don’t have to be a minister or a rabbi or an ulama or a priest. You don’t have to be in some special position. Simply move through the world and be the change you wish to see in the world. With every thought, that you allow to stick in your mind, with every word, certainly that proceeds from your mouth, and with every action that you take. Let your thoughts, words, and actions simply demonstrate the change you wish to see in the world. And don’t think people will fail to notice because they will not fail to notice. You know, you go through the checkout line at the supermarket and the lady’s moving things across and ringing it up and moving it across and ringing it up. And she’s being incredibly efficient, zipping through, getting you through the checkout line. And you say to the checkout lady, I don’t mean to be inappropriate, but I want to tell you something. I always hope that I get into your line when I come to the supermarket because you’re always friendly, courteous, helpful, incredibly efficient. You’re just marvelous at what you do. Mm. Little tiny little. No big deal. But just a tiny little watering. Shows up under her eyes. She looks at you and she says. Thank you for saying that. I’ve been working here 17 years, and no one has ever said that to me. So you know what? Give people back to themselves. When you see someone being their best self, say something. Even if they’re total strangers.

Alison : That’s a beautiful twist on. See something, say something.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : You know, that’s just and that and that. You know, whenever I do do that, I feel like I was given the gift.

Neale: Of course you were. That’s the whole point.  You are given the gift, because you’ve given yourself the gift of who you are. Ah, now that’s who I am.

Alison : Mhm.

Jean : And you say that in your book, I’m not going to quote you properly Neale, but you say,  to stay in a high vibe cause someone else to remember their truth. I wrote it down. Does that make sense to you?

Neale: Yes, of course it does. But, you know, there was another person who said essentially the same thing 2000 years ago.  He put it this way. Do unto others as you would have it done unto you.

Jean : Yeah.

Neale: The golden rule.

Jean : Yes.

Neale: And the God of my understanding, said Neale, that was a wonderful golden rule. But I got a platinum rule. Platinum is even more valuable than gold. Here’s the platinum rule. Do unto others as they would have it done unto them.

Alison : This has been wonderful.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : Neale, we have two last questions as we we finish up our talk with you, which has been really great. Um.

Neale: Wait…. I got, I got a question that I want to ask you first.

Alison : Okay.

Neale: What does insidewink mean to you?

Alison : Inside Wink? ahahahahah

Jean : That’s like,  That’s like that game…Like slapping each other’s hand, and whose hand goes on top.

Alison : Hmm. Well. Do you really want to know?

Neale: No, I just wanted to turn the tables on you.

Alison : Thank you. What do you think it means?

Neale: To me,  an inside wink –  is a feeling internally that something is—- something’s up, something’s happening, something important is going on. And basically, more often than not, an inside wink means to me that my heart is saying yes.

Alison : That’s beautiful.

Jean : That’s beautiful.

Alison : And then our most important question. Pie. Cake or ice cream?

Neale: Ice cream.

Alison : Yeah.

Neale: No question.

Jean : What flavor?

Neale: Chocolate ice.

Alison : Nice. Neale.

Jean : Okay.

Alison : Thank you.

Jean : I also just want to say here that we are, all three of us are Virgos. Uh, Neil, you are September10th, I am September 12th.

Alison : I’m, September 8th.

Alison : So you got a love sandwich on either side?

Jean : That’s right.

Neale: Wow, that’s really wild.

Jean : That’s wonderful.

Alison : Thank you so, so much for joining us and have a beautiful day writing.

Jean : Yeah. And you, you really are such a blessing to more people than you’ll ever realize. Um, and many, much love to you and your beautiful wife.

Neale: Thank you, my friends. It was sweet spending this time with you as well. I appreciate the opportunity. Blessed be.

Alison : Thank you. Have a beautiful day.

Neale: Bye bye for now.

Alison : Okay, so he’s so calming.

Jean : Mhm.

Alison : And sometimes when we do an interview, I feel like we’re like with a little bird in a room like, you know, and with him I felt very much like he’s very calming, and he seems like he’s pausing and really thoughtful and I kind of loved him, right?

Jean : He, you know, he he definitely has, uh, impacted not only my life, but so many people with his writings. And for me, like seeing him on zoom, um, made me feel a little nervous. Like I was a little awestruck because he has had such a impact, a great impact on my my life. And so seeing him, I was a little nervous.

Alison : Yeah, I get it. And I loved some of the tips he gave us about, um, you know, just the little kindness thing in the supermarket. And, you know, we don’t think it makes a difference. We just think. But I the more we do these interviews and the more people are like, just start with small steps that resonate for you. I think that’s wonderful. And what he said about his wife and Completely allowing, um, whatever you want for you. I thought, wow, like, I don’t I don’t, I don’t think I’m there yet. You know?

Jean : And yeah, I want to definitely was not there with Alex, that’s for sure. But I, I can see how I would truly want to be that way. And I can be that way with you. I can be that way with Matthew and Emily. So, um, I do think that’s how the the evolution of our soul is letting go of these things that we think we need or that will make us happy. Like, oh, if you,  if you.—-

Alison : just picked up your socks…

Jean :  Yeah. And, you know, it’s so interesting we’re filming this now on Valentine’s Day and that day gets so loaded with-  prove to me that you love me.

Alison : Mhm.

Jean : You know. So

Alison : And just the fact that we — there were so many people in our lives. I think all of us friends, relatives, maybe not a partner. We are surrounded by love. We just have to see it and know it and accept it, I think.

Jean : Yeah. You know that’s true.

Alison : Yeah. Well, he was wonderful. We hope you enjoy this. And, please.

Jean : He was our Valentine’s…

Alison : To each other—that’s right.  And please read, God Talk. Or if you just start at the beginning with, Conversations with God. It’s just… He’s amazing. It opens you up.

Jean : That’s for sure…Any one of his books are brilliant.

Alison : Have a beautiful, wonderful day.

Jean : Bye .

Alison: Hi.

Jean: Here we are again in my sacred closet.

Alison: That’s right in the closet, because my Wi-Fi is not working. So there you have it.

Jean: Okay, so today we are interviewing someone whose topic is so relevant that we all can relate to.

Alison: It’s about being stuck. Have you ever felt stuck?

Jean: A better question would be how often have you not felt stuck?

Alison: Exactly. I think we’ve all suffered from stuckness. Yeah. And our guest name is Diana Deborah, and her podcast is called- Season of Stuck, which I love that title.

Jean: Yeah. Me too, because it it definitely points to the fact that it’s not forever, that it’s just this, this point in time.

Alison: And the times I felt stuck, I have felt on top of it. I beat myself up. Do you know, like I go, what’s wrong with you?

Jean: Oh, yeah.

Alison: Get get going…Like-.

Jean: Right.

Alison: Pick up, you know, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. What’s the problem? And so I really hope that when we talk with her, we can address some of those things.

Jean: Yeah. I can’t wait to hear her. And, um, I know she’s going to have some wonderful tips to help us feel unstuck and not feel bad about being in a time of stuckness.

Alison: Exactly. Well, here she is. Here’s Deanna.

Deanna: Hi. It is so wonderful to meet you both. I’m Deanna.

Alison: Hi. I’m Allison.

Jean: I’m Jean.

Deanna: Jean. So nice to meet you both. How’s your day going?

Alison: It’s great.

Jean: It’s very nice. I’ve been, uh, od’ing on your your podcast. Mhm. I’ve had, uh, yesterday, the day before and this morning. So I’m like…. And now just hearing your voice I’m like wow she’s actually here now.

Alison: It’s so wonderful. It’s such a, it’s such a wonderful time to meet you with everything going on.

Deanna: Mhm. Yes. I am so happy to connect. And I have to tell you I’ve also listened to your podcast and I love it. And the last question that you ask about the cake versus the pie, this is actually like a very relevant, controversial question for me as a baker. So I’m very excited to share my perspective.

Alison: Excellent. Okay, great. Let’s just go there.

Deanna: Oh, I could do a whole episode about pie if that’s the direction that you want to go.

Jean: So that’s so interesting because I feel like I know a lot about you, and yet, yet I don’t. I didn’t even know that you’re a baker, so, um.

Deanna:  that was my Covid hobby that I picked up. And it’s become like a true love. And so I binge podcasts and bake, which is kind of like my go to now when I’m feeling stressed.

Alison: Oh that’s excellent.

Deanna: And where are you both based.

Alison: In Los Angeles?

Alison: Where are you?

Deanna: Uh, so I’m in the Pacific Northwest. I’m about an hour east of Portland, Oregon, in the Columbia River Gorge. But I lived in LA for almost a decade. Um, how are you? With everything that’s been going on, it’s such a hard time.

Alison: We are fine, but- but, you know, we knew a lot of people that went through that…

Jean: and that were affected by the fires. Um, we were not directly affected. But as Alison said, we we knew people that actually had to evacuate, that lost their homes.

Alison: Yeah.

Jean: And, um, and now I just thinking that they have to recreate their lives.  In such a dramatic way. Um.

Deanna: It’s, it’s so much more than just stuff or just a house. Like when you think about our home is our respite from the world. It’s where we make our memories like it. All of the sentimental value. And to have that, it’s just so scary. And I’m sending so much love to the city. It was very surreal seeing the places that, you know, I spent almost a decade. Um, but the city is full of incredible people who are resilient and wonderful, and I know that you guys are going to support each other through it.

Alison: Yeah. It’s been you know, I think that’s the thing a lot of people I talk to are tired and feel tired and I think feel stuck. You know… Are you are you seeing that a lot more in your, your the what you’re hearing in your podcast? Like, have we always been this sort of stuck or is this new to this climate of the world?

Deanna: So I think that individual stuckness has always been the case. We all come to periods in our life where who we used to be or the life we used to have doesn’t really fit anymore, but who we are going to be and the life we’re stepping into hasn’t fully emerged yet. So I think that kind of inertia has always existed, existed, but there is certainly a very heavy kind of stuckness that is existing in the world today, just with there is so much going on. There is so much, you know, divide, there’s natural disasters there. There’s just a lot of collective heaviness. So I think as a collective, this point in history for many is one of the most stuck that we’ve experienced in our lifetimes.

Jean: Well, well, it’s so apropos that your podcast is all about stuckness and getting unstuck. Yeah. And something that came to me and I was sharing a little bit with Alison is, is that I what I, one of the things I love, what you’re doing, um, is breaking the connotation the The negative connotation around Stuck, and it’s nothing to feel bad about or shameful or what’s wrong with you? Or….

Deanna: I mean, I spent my entire life feeling like these seasons of stuck that I experienced and I’ve experienced many were a personal failing, that there was something inherently wrong with me, that I kept finding myself facing this experience of stuck. And it wasn’t until a few years ago when I started finally talking about it, that that experience was mirrored back by every single person that I talked to, like every single person has experienced stuckness. And so my hope is that through the podcast, I can reach the people who are like I was, who think that there’s something wrong with them, or that they’re failing, or they’re feeling ashamed and kind of normalize the experience and just say, hey, like, this isn’t a you problem. It is a human problem, and there are ways to navigate it and move through it.

Alison: So could you define for our audience your definition? I think you did just a second ago, but the full definition of what it is to be stuck?

Deanna: Yes. So the definition that I use, um, for stuckness is this idea that who we used to be, the things that we used to do, the life that we used to live, no longer feels like a fit. It’s not working anymore. But the next phase, this next iteration of ourselves and our lives doesn’t feel clear yet. So you know that you don’t want to be where you are, but you don’t really know how to move forward, and you don’t even really know what you would want to move forward to, even if you could. So there’s this sense of, you know, being stuck in place. You can’t go backward. You can’t go forward. Um, that can feel really, really uncomfortable for a lot of people.

Alison: And that can be in anything that can be work relationships, living arrangements.

Deanna: Personal growth, personal growth, journey, um, you know, career direction, um, the way that you view and relate to yourself, like there are so many different ways and places that you can experience stuckness. And I know because I’ve experienced them all, probably twice. Um, so it, um, yeah, it’s something that from the conversations that I’ve had both on the podcast and outside of the podcast, um, it’s an experience that people have often. And once you navigate stuckness in one area of your life, there’s a pretty good chance that another area you’re going to feel stuck in the not too distant future. So I think it’s really important to understand what is happening when we’re stuck, really know to our core that it doesn’t mean that there’s anything wrong with us or wrong with our life. It’s just a catalyst. I’d like to say stuck is a step and it’s not a comfortable step. It’s not a fun step, but it is an essential step because the discomfort that comes with stuckness is what ultimately catapults you towards change. You become so uncomfortable with where you are that the uncomfortable feeling of the unknown, or not knowing what the future looks like, it’s just outweighed, and you’re forced to take a step forward. So I found both personally and in the conversations that I’ve had, that stuckness virtually always precedes a period of serious growth.

Alison: Wow.

Jean: Yeah. It’s wonderful that you that you give voice to that.

Alison: Yes.

Jean: And because so many of us feel, um, like we’re a loser when when, you know, we’re  not in the flow of life or feeling the way we would like to. Yeah. Can you give us a short background to your story? Um, just because I know our viewers would just like to know you.

Alison: How did you start that?

Deanna: Of course. I love a good origin story. Um, so my name is Deanna debara. Um. And I am a writer. I’ve been a professional writer for, uh, the last decade. Um, and I am also a person that has felt stuck a lot, like, a lot, a lot. Um, you know, as I mentioned earlier, I have been stuck in pretty much every way in place that a person could feel stuck. And those experiences always were, you know, kind of coated in shame for me. Like, it felt like I wasn’t good enough. And that is why I kept finding myself in these stuck places, in my relationships, in my relationship to myself and my career, all these different places. Um, and about two years ago, I was going through a major, major period of stuckness as a writer. Uh. I work in an industry that is rapidly changing in the face of AI and the economy, and this business that I had spent almost a decade building and that I really loved, um, wasn’t working anymore. But I didn’t know what I was going to do next. So I was stuck in this place for months. And eventually I got so stuck that I started doing two things. Number one, I started doing research to understand what was actually happening when I was experiencing these periods of inertia. And then I also opened up and I started having conversations. And through those processes, I learned that stuck is a foundational, universal human experience. It’s not a shortcoming. It’s something that we all go through. And there was power in hearing other people’s stories that mirrored that experience for me. It felt really connected and it helped to remove that kind of veil of shame. And so as I was having these conversations, I had a little bit of a light bulb moment and I was like, this could be a really interesting thing to explore in a podcast and to hopefully remove that stigma that we can attach to ourselves and normalize this experience that we all go through and work through the stuckness together.

Alison: When you did your research, um, what did you find about moments of stuckness? What was something that really you went, ah, like an aha moment?

Deanna: One of the biggest revelations through my research was that, like, I had always looked at stuckness as a mental experience, right? Like it was something that was happening in my head and through my research, and specifically, there’s a book called The Science of Stuck by Britt Frank, who is a therapist and just all around brilliant. Um, and it was through that book specifically that I learned that stuck is actually a nervous system problem. Like, there are physiological things that are happening when you feel stuck that are driving that inertia. It’s you’re essentially in a freeze state. So even if you want to take those steps forward, your nervous system feels so overwhelmed, you know, by the fear and the unknown and not knowing which direction to go, that it can be almost impossible to motivate your body. So in order to get unstuck, it’s not just about thinking, what do I want next? Which direction do I want to go? There’s actually a component of regulating your nervous system and showing your nervous system that it is safe to change and safe to move forward. Um, and that was absolutely not the way that I thought about stuckness prior to this research. So that was a huge oh, I’m trying to think my way out of a problem that exists in my body.

Alison: Right. So it’s like being hungry and trying to think about food.

Deanna: Exactly. Like if you’re hungry, I could think about what different types of food I want. I could think about going to the store. I can think about cooking a meal, but none of those things are going to deal with the hunger. If I want to address the hunger, I have to eat right?

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: Yeah. I didn’t know that.

Deanna: Mhm.

Jean: And you mentioned I don’t know where I heard you, but you mentioned that, that moving the energy of stuckness is not a mental thing. It’s a more, it’s a more body type movement. Can you talk about that a little bit.

Deanna: Yeah. So again with the nervous system there are multiple states that the nervous system could be in in any time. I’ve heard you heard of I’m sure you’ve heard of Fight or Flight. There’s also freeze. There’s also fawn and stuckness is associated with a freeze state. So in order to move that energy, you have to address what’s happening in your nervous system. And for many people, the best way to regulate your nervous system is through movement. You know, it actually will create the changes, like in your physiological response to work out that energy, release it, and shift your nervous system to a state where you’re more able to make change. It’s not a silver bullet in the sense of, oh, I’m going to go for a run, and then I’m unstuck. But if you’re feeling in a stuck place and you’re trying to make these changes, doing something like going for a run can help release all of those endorphins and those feel good neurotransmitters that, when you’re done, will put you in a better place to start making those changes.

Alison: You know, I was I’ve been thinking so much about being stuck…. Since we’re interviewing you, and it’s a very interesting topic for me because I’m wondering how much is stuckness attributed like to we’re living in such a world of social media now that I feel that externally I’m being told something and I feel like sometimes, just for me, you’re too old, it’s too late. It’s whatever. Do you do you think that plays into it at all in this world?

Deanna: Oh my gosh. I mean, how could it not? You know, we are constantly bombarded and, you know, this is the foundation of the advertising industry, right? Like we are bombarded with messaging that we are somehow not enough. Right. And then the solution is to buy this cream or take this vacation or whatever to make us more enough. Um, and not only do we have that from traditional marketing and advertising, social media has created this environment where we are constantly exposed to what I like to call, other people’s highlight reels, right? It’s this like very curated, like example of their life. And then we compare our full movie with all of the mundane moments and all of the challenges and all of the insecurities, and we find ourselves lacking, and we often can feel as though there’s no way to live up to that ideal. And that can absolutely make us feel stuck.

Jean: And, you know, for me, at the same time, I also notice that the social expectations are are being released. Like, you know, more women are going going natural. Um, people aren’t like our dads are no longer, uh, holding a job for 40 years. You know, people are moving and moving around and, and everything with, um, just people’s sexual identity. So I think at the same time that’s happening too.

Deanna: Absolutely. And I think that the impact of social media absolutely depends on how you use it. Right. If you curate your feed with women who are leaning into midlife and celebrating their natural beauty, or people who are talking about their experiences of being their authentic selves or even feel good things, like, I follow about a million dog accounts on Instagram, and it’s just so when I log in, instead of feeling like I’m bombarded with this messaging that makes me feel not great about myself and therefore stuck. I am treated to something that makes me feel happy or  connected. And it’s not to say that I am not also exposed to those other things, but I think if you use social media strategically and intentionally, it can be a tool to help you get unstuck. So it’s like one of those kind of catch 22. Depending on how you use it. Social media can absolutely contribute to feelings of stuckness, but if you use it intentionally, it can also be a force to help you build self esteem, move forward, get unstuck.

Jean: Mhm.

Alison: Do you you’ve talked to so many great people. Is there a story um that has really, I mean stuck out to you? I know it’s a weird way to put it, but is there a story…. I didn’t mean it like that, but is there a story that you can kind of reference for us?

Deanna: Absolutely. So I have had the absolute pleasure of interviewing some of the smartest, most interesting people who are making such incredible contributions to the world. It really is an honor. Um, and so many of their stories stick out as being helpful or interesting. I think that one of the conversations that for me, had one of the most lasting impacts, um, I had an author on the podcast, her name is Anna Goldfarb, and she wrote a book called Modern Friendship. She was the New York Times friendship correspondent for many, many years. Um, and we had a conversation about how we can get stuck in our friendships and specifically adult friendships today in this culture. And like what we can do to support those relationships and get unstuck. Um, and she had so many helpful tidbits, right? Because we’re all busy, we all are pulled in lots of different directions. So many of us work from home. We have families, we have partners, we have children. All of these things. It can be really hard to prioritize friendships, but the benefit of friendships is so well documented, and having a network of people who you feel truly connected to, who you show up for and who show up for you, can make you healthier, happier. All sorts of good stuff. Um, and one of the things that she said to me that really, really stuck out as helpful and that I have carried into my own relationships, is that affection is not enough to keep a friendship moving forward.

Deanna: If you want your friendships to flourish, there has to be a strong about. And so what she meant by that is, if I have a friend that I love, right? A friend that I used to work with who I think is wonderful. Um, that’s not enough to sustain the friendship, right? There needs to be a core external thing that binds us together, that almost acts as like the framework of the friendship that we can keep coming back to. Um, So my example that I have experienced in my life recently. So I as a way to help with stuckness, I started dancing as an adult a couple years ago. Um, and it has become not only an incredible way to like exercise and move through stuckness and be in my body, but also this like incredible community of women that have just become this huge support system. And it’s like for all of us, dance is our why, right? That is the thing that brings us together, that allows us to spend time together every week that like, gives us something to bond over. And then it’s from that, about, that our friendships are able to flourish, we become closer, we start doing other things together. But it was like the hub, right? It was the hub that gave us the frequency of contact, the commonality of like something that we have in common, um, which are kind of the key components of friendship.

Deanna: If you’re going to have a strong friendship, you need to see your friends, you need to have something in common. And so this about which for me was dance is what has helped me get unstuck in my friendships and like make sure that they are a foundational part of my life. And that about can be anything, right? It can be something with an individual friend. Like I feel stuck. Me and my friend are just not really connecting. We haven’t made time for each other. Like what’s a hobby that we both enjoy, that we can use as an anchor in our relationship? Maybe we go to yoga together once a week. Maybe we start exploring crafts. Like maybe we go to the theater or do a book club. Like whatever it is that about is what keeps friendships moving forward and prevents them from getting into a stuck place. And I feel like that was just it was like a mind blowing thing. And I have applied it to lots of different friendships, friends that I had maybe lost contact with, friendships that I want to feel closer. And it has been incredible like it. Absolutely. Creating this strong about as an anchor for my friendships has made them all stronger. And for that, I am eternally grateful.

Alison: Can you tell me what kind of dance?

Deanna: Yes. So I go to a local dance studio, and there are a few different classes that I take. So twice a week we do dance fitness, uh, and then once a week, I also take a hip hop and jazz choreography class. Um, and it’s it’s so fun. And here’s the thing. I am not a, like, good dancer by any stretch of the imagination, but what dance has helped me with in terms of stuckness? Yes, there is the being in my body and like helping helping me move through actual experiences of stuckness, regulating my nervous system. But there’s also this other gift that it’s given me, um, which is not exclusive to dance, but for a long time, and in particular in my adult life, I was stuck in the idea that in order to do something, I had to be good at it. It had to look good to other people. It had to feel like an achievement that somehow, like a cap in my feather or a feather in my cap. And if I wasn’t good at it, then I should just move on and find something that I’m good at. But, committing to dance, you know, 3 to 4 times a week has given me this gift of like, the only reason that I dance is for joy. I’m not good at it. I’m not going to, you know, be a professional dancer. I’m not trying to show off for anyone else. It just it just gives me, like, a deep sense of joy. And it’s fun and I love it. And so I’m no longer stuck in that idea that the only worthwhile activities to do are activities that I’m good at. And that has unlocked so much for me where it’s like, now I’m like, oh, I’m going to try pottery or I’m going to take this painting class. And it’s not about the output, it’s about how I feel when I’m doing the activity.

Jean: Yeah, that’s great…Well, Alison, here.

Alison: We’re laughing and nudging each other because I started tap.

Deanna: Oh my gosh. Tell me, do you love it?

Alison: I’m 65. It was 65 when I started. And I have to tell you, it’s a riot. And I loved it. I couldn’t do it because I hurt my foot. But I’m going to go back. I did it for a year. And then when that stopped, I started taking pottery. And I make the most misshapen bowls in the world. But I have to tell you what you’re saying, um, my job was always about pleasing others. That’s how, that’s how I work worked. And, um, here I go…. Wow, this is really misshapen. How fantastic. Because there’s no consequence. There’s no… it’s just fun to do. And I don’t even know… Like, I think sometimes women don’t know what they enjoy.

Deanna: Mhm.

Alison: You know?

Deanna: Well we’re so socialized to put other people’s needs in front of our own. Right. Like that is a message that we get both, you know, explicitly and implicitly for the majority of our lives. And when you’re juggling the demands of the world and you know other people’s expectations of you, it can be hard to find the time and the energy to foster things that feel like authentic, authentically you. Like you really love, you know, um, and there’s I think the thing that was challenging for me to get over and I’m curious if you had the same experience, was I was so used to putting other people’s needs above my own that I, I got the message that taking care of my own needs and pursuing things that I enjoyed was selfish. Like, oh, like, you know, who am I to be putting all of this time to this activity that helps no one but me, you know?

Alison: Yes. Very much. And, um, someone asked me, well, you know, the kids, the kids are grown. It’s me and my husband now in the house. And someone said, well, so what do you like to do? And I was like, wow, I like to take care of my kids and I like to clean the house. And I thought, those aren’t things that you should be like…. They’re fine, they’re wonderful…. But like, for me and Jean and I talked about this, this a lot that we where am I in this mix, because I kind of lost myself. And you are so right, it does feel selfish, you know.  I’ll say to my husband, I’m going to pottery. And he goes, great, go. But I feel like he’s actually thinking, again.

Deanna: Mhm.

Alison: but he’s not.

Deanna: Mhm.

Alison: He’s a great guy, and… But it’s there.

Deanna: Well, no one ever judges us as harshly as we judge ourselves, right? So even if nobody else is telling you that message, it can still be hard to get over that internalized shame or feeling of being, you know, selfish. But how special is it that you now get to go out and experience these things and find out what you enjoy at this stage in your life? It’s almost like a rediscovery process, and certainly I would imagine it helps to deal with any feelings of stuckness, because you’re constantly exposing yourself to new things and finding new joys.

Alison: Yeah yeah yeah yeah. When you’re talking about friendships and being stuck, are there some friendships that then in that moment you let go of?

Deanna: Mhm. So that was actually another um revelation that I had following that episode. So I can be a somewhat black and white thinker, like something is or something isn’t. I am friends with someone or I am not friends with someone. And Anna really pointed out that, the nature of adulthood, and in particular in today’s society, which is like so busy and, you know, being pulled in so many different directions…. Friendships will ebb and flow, right? So you might lose friends. Like you might lose touch with a friend and think, okay, well, I’m not friends with that person anymore. I’ve let that friendship go. But then ten years down the line, a strong about emerges, that brings you back together. Maybe you moved to the same neighborhood, and you have children that are the same age, and then you connect and it’s like you pick back up where the friendship left off. So I really appreciated, um, that idea that, like, just because you’re not in super close contact with a friend at any given moment, it doesn’t mean that the friendship is over. That there’s, like, natural, you know, kind of up and down, connected, not connected. And, you know, we don’t have to assign meaning to that. Like, obviously there’s reasons that friendships end definitively, but this idea of just losing touch or, you know, not having availability for each other, that there is always the opportunity for those friendships to reemerge in the future if you leave the door open.

Alison: Okay, I love that.

Jean: That’s beautiful.

Alison: Yeah.

Jean: Can you talk a little bit more about gratitude? Well, not more…. because we haven’t even spoken about it, but, um, I heard you talk about gratitude and how you use that to get unstuck. And it seems a little contrary, but I thought what you know, you said was really beautiful. Yeah.

Deanna: Um. I would love to talk about gratitude. This, I think, is one of the most important tools in my tool belt that has had the most profound impact on my life. Um, so I am 40 now. Um, When I was 25, I went into recovery from a very serious drinking problem. I drank very problematically from 19 to 25. So 15 years ago, um, and when I first stopped drinking, I felt so lost, like my life was in shambles. I had tension in my relationships. I didn’t know where I was going with my career, like it was the most stuck, to this day, that I have ever been in my life. And in that moment in time, as a way to anchor myself and not get overwhelmed by this feeling of stuckness, of like, where’s my life going? What am I going to do? How do I fix this? Um, I started doing gratitude journaling, so I started writing down three things that I’m grateful for every day. And in the beginning, you know, it was very small things because my life was such a mess. You know, it’s like I’m grateful that I, you know, got out of bed when my alarm went off or I’m grateful that I got to sit in the sun. Whatever the case may be. But that practice forced me to look at the good that was there that I wasn’t seeing before. I was so caught up in all of the challenges and the negative feelings and the fear about how to navigate this period of my life.

Deanna: But doing that gratitude practice every day was like a concrete reminder that there is good here. And if you keep moving forward, there will be more good. And as I evolved and got further and further from my last drink, those items on my gratitude list expanded, you know. Then it was I’m grateful that I landed this new job. I’m grateful that someone told me I was a good friend today. Like, I’m grateful that I got to go on this vacation. Whatever the case may be, it was like I could see the ways in which my life was changing and the more gratitude that I showed for that, like the happier that I felt in those changes. And even today, you know, like, I make it a point to express gratitude in one way or another every day. I am like, kind of notorious in my group of friends for just sending random text messages of like, hey, this is what I love and appreciate about you. Thank you for being my friend. Um, and that has become like a foundational part of my life. And in the moments when I’m feeling stuck, just like I was when I stopped drinking. If I find myself in that place, focusing on what there is to be grateful for will propel me forward and towards feeling unstuck every time.

Jean: Yeah…I love that, Deanna.

Alison: that’s So moving.

Deanna: Um, it’s just it’s a really powerful practice. And, you know, it can seem cliche, but like, sometimes cliches are true. Like gratitude just works. And even in your darkest, most stuck moments, if you can tap into that gratitude, it will show a light at the end of the tunnel. It will move you forward and as you continue to express it, it like becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. There will be more and more to be grateful for.

Jean: Right – yeah.

Alison: That’s beautiful. Thank you for sharing that and congratulations on your journey.

Deanna: Thank you. I just a couple of weeks ago celebrated 15 years without a drink.

Alison: That’s beautiful.

Jean: Wonderful.

Alison: That’s beautiful. My husband and I have done 30 years without a drink. And I have to say it, it has… It’s a it’s a was a beautiful release of something that I never thought would go away.

Deanna: Mhm. Oh congratulations on that. That is incredible. And you’re right, like what I found when I stopped drinking. Was that it was occupying so much of my time and head space in life that when I stopped, it created this, like pocket, this space for all of these beautiful things to come in. And like,  speaking of gratitude, like I couldn’t be any more grateful that I made that decision. And, you know, it set me on a trajectory towards a life that, you know, at the time, I, I couldn’t dream of. So I’m very grateful.

Alison: And I wanted to say something about the title of your podcast,  Season Of Stuck, because the season changes and passes.

Deanna: Mhm.

Alison: As opposed to calling it like I’m stuck or we’re all stuck or here’s stuck. This season of stuck is so wonderful and.

Jean:  and hopeful.

Deanna: Thank you. Thank you. That is certainly what I was going for. Um, another thing that I say is that, you know, stuckness is a step, as I mentioned before, but it’s not a permanent one– like your stuck spot isn’t your forever spot. You will, the seasons will change. You know, you will go from winter to spring. Um, as long as you continue moving forward.

Alison: Right. It’s a step, not a landing.

Deanna: Exactly 100%. And it’s generally like a step in the right direction. Right? It can be so discouraging or, you know, uncomfortable to feel like, my life right now is like, there’s something that’s not right…. This career isn’t right for me. I feel like my relationship isn’t working. Like I have a really negative self view of myself. And that’s not how I want to live my life. Like, that can be really hard. But when you address those things and step into the next version of yourself and your life, it’s like a shedding of things that no longer work for you, which again creates space for things that will.

Jean: Yeah. That’s That it’s so empowering in in a way, also that you say that, and you you mentioned on someone else’s podcast to give yourself permission to change.

Deanna: Mhm.

Jean: Right. You said that and I was like wow, that’s so true. You know that, we can actually take the stuckness that we’re in and go, okay something’s going to change.  And I don’t know what that is but I, I know that I’m, I’m now in an energy of change and I give myself permission to do that.

Deanna: And that permission is so liberating. Right. We get so stuck thinking that we have to be who we were yesterday or a year ago, but at any given time, we can give ourselves permission to change and move in a new direction. And maybe that direction doesn’t work and you give your permission to change to another direction. But as but as long as you allow yourself the space to change, you will continually be changing in a way that feels more and more authentic to you.

Jean: Right.

Alison: Do you like yourself as much as you like pie?

Deanna: Oh, I, I gotta say, I have been doing a lot of work on myself, so I am, I’m feeling really good about myself. But pie will always be the crown in my life.

Alison: For a very. You’re very self connected and you’re really a joy to talk to.

Jean: Yeah,

Deanna: Well, you were both such a joy to talk to. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate you having me on, and this was such a wonderful conversation.

Alison: Before you go, what do you think inside wink means?

Deanna: Mhm. So when I hear inside wink, what I think of,  is almost like a nod to my internal self, like winking and just being like, hey, it’s all going to be okay. So kind of a of a self-compassion is what comes up for me when I hear inside wink.

Alison: I love that.

Jean: Me too.

Alison: Do you want to ask the big one that we waited for the whole time?

Jean: Well, I sort of know her answer, but I want to have her embellish on her answer. Okay, Deanna, do you like cake, pie or ice cream?

Deanna: Mhm. Okay, so I am a pie girl through and through. It is my favorite dessert to eat and it’s also my biggest baking challenge. I have been trying to perfect a pie crust recipe for like four years now. And I’m still not quite there. So it’s this joy to eat and also this challenge that propels me forward in my baking life. So from all angles. Pie pie pie.

Alison: I love that. What flavor?

Deanna: Ooh. Oh, that’s like asking me to pick my favorite child. Um, I the last pie that I made, which was one of the best that I’ve ever made, was banana cream pie. I made it for Christmas.

Alison: Oh my God.

Jean: I have to say for those bakers out there that are listening. And I too love to bake.  That phrase, um, oh, it’s as easy as pie…. Pie is not easy to make.

Deanna: No.

Jean: that is such  a lie.

Deanna: It is so fickle. Getting the crust right and like, making sure that your fat stays cold and all these things. No, it should be, like, as ridiculously difficult as pie would be, the more accurate idiom.

Jean: Much, much better.

Alison: So next podcast…As Ridiculously difficult as pie.

Deanna: Oh, what a title.

Jean: Yeah, it’s it’s like when someone says, oh, you eat as much as a bird. Well, a bird eats, like, twice its size relative to it’s body.

Deanna: So there are some terms, there are some turns of phrases that just don’t make sense to me. And tying to your question, the phrase you want to have your cake and eat it too. What other purpose is there for cake than to eat it? Like? Do I want to look at it? Do I want to admire it like, no, I want to eat it. Of course I do.

Alison: It’s right.

Jean: It’s so true.

Alison: Oh my gosh, you cracked me up.  Thank you.

Jean: You are so great.. You’re just what the doctor ordered. And, um. And I thank you so much for for being on our show. And, you know…

Alison: Many congratulations on so many things. It’s a beautiful, beautiful podcast.

Jean: Yeah.

Deanna: Thank you both so, so much. I cannot tell you how much that means to me. It has been a joy to be here. I loved chatting with you. Um, and thank you again for for having me on.

Jean: Yes. Thanks. Deanna.

Deanna: You have a beautiful day.

Alison: Bye.

Jean: Bye.

Jean: That was great.

Alison: Oh, she was excellent, and she got us so inspired that Jean and I are now going to do archery.

Jean: To help us get unstuck.

Alison: That’s right. To keep us, to keep us having an about.

Jean: Yeah, right.

Jean: And, you know, I was thinking, um, and I didn’t address this with her, but, you know, I think it’s when we’re stuck that, it’s just an opportunity to kind of reassess our lives deeply and see where where can we, uh, change it up a bit because we…. Part of another word for change is creation, and we’re always creating. So, um, I think those moments for myself anyway, when I felt stuck, it is a time of, um, inter reflection of my own life.

Alison: That’s that’s that’s wonderful. I think sometimes that I’ve been stuck. I’ve felt,  I felt blameful of myself. But I like that that she normalized it for me.

Jean: Yeah. exactly..

Alison: And that she’s like, look, it’s just a part of life and and that you can’t necessarily think your way out of it. I thought that was a great insight.

Jean: Yes. Really, really powerful. And so when you get a moment, check out her podcast. It’s absolutely wonderful.

Alison: Season of stuck.

Jean: Season of stuck…Yeah.

Alison: That’s right. Thank you so much. Have a wonderful unstuck day. Okay. We’ll talk to you later.

Jean: Bye.

 

Alison : Jean and I are talking about. Hello. I just want to say hello first. Jean and I are talking about how to raise our vibration.

Jean : Yeah,

Alison : And you were saying a grounding mat. What is that?

Jean : A grounding mat? I think that’s something to do with the magnetics. And so you can sleep on a grounding mat or put your feet on it. I’m not a 100% sure, but, um…. When I was listening to prepare for our interview with Rachel, um, the angels were saying that to be really careful with the fluoride. That’s fluoride that’s in your toothpaste. And the other tip they gave for raising your vibration is to give a long hug to someone. A someone that is open to receiving your hug.

Alison : Like, maybe not a bus driver that you’re just meeting on a bus or maybe? Maybe if if it works out.

Jean : If you have that connection with that person.

Alison : Exactly. But I try- I think I hug a lot of people and, um, I’m not sure people are used to it, like, I, I really dive in for a hug. Do you dive in for a hug?

Jean : I sort of sense if someone would like it, I’ll lean forward and then I can tell.

Alison : Oh, because you’re kind.

Jean : If They’re they’re not… I’m not feeling it. And then if they are open for it. I love to give hugs.

Alison : Me too. Yeah. Me too, I love it. But that brings us talking about angels right to our interview today.

Jean : So we had the pleasure of interviewing Rachel Corpus.

Alison : Yes. And, uh, and we can’t wait for you to hear it, because she’s so beautiful and eloquent and angelic and angelic. That’s right.

Jean : And and she really gives some beautiful tips on how to incorporate the angelic energy into your life. And we all have it. So, um, we all have guides, I should say, and angels and guides. So, you know, asking them for their assistance in, in the small things in life and the big things. Um, so.

Alison : But take a listen and then, um and see what you think. Here’s Rachel corpus.

Jean : Hi, Rachel.

Rachel : Hello.

Alison : Hi. It’s so nice to meet you.

Rachel : And you.

Alison : I’m Allison,

Jean : And I’m Jean.

Rachel : Hi, Jean. Well, lovely to be with you today.

Jean : Yes, very lovely to be with you. I’ve OD’d on some of your interviews and your website, and so I actually said to Alison when she came over, I said, I can’t wait to talk to this lady.

Alison : This angel.

Jean : This angel. Right. Yeah.

Rachel : Well, I feel the same. I’ve been doing the same thing. This will be fun.

Alison : So I guess we’re done. Great. Thank you.  hahah…  Could you tell us just a little bit about, um, how this all began for you?

Rachel : What do you mean?

Alison : Your angelic…

Jean : Yeah. Well, I think just to to set the tone for our listeners —just how you became aware that you were an angel as a little girl, you know?  And if that was cultivated, you know. So just a little bit about your origin story.

Rachel : Yes.  great question. Thank you. Um, well, I, I was born a psychic child, so I had psychic experiences, like many, many people have. So I could see other angels, and I could interact with people who had passed in animals. And I don’t think that’s that uncommon. But when I was four years old, my parents and I and my brother were in a near fatal car accident, and I had a near-death experience. And in that experience, I went to the other side, and there was this voice speaking to me that I didn’t recognize yet. It was this voice, grown up Rachel voice. And there were two other angels with me that I did recognize. Um, they were my guardians, and there were a whole bunch of other angels, and they took me home. So this is your real home. This is the Seraphim realm. This is where you come from. You are an actual angel. There are many others like you. You’re special, but not, but common. And you basically, they said there’s a lot more to it, but they said you can stay here or you can go back to Earth. And they showed me, you know, what my mission would be or what my mission was. And they showed me lots of things about Earth and about the angelic realm. So I mentioned the part about the grown up voice because I, I, I believe strongly that that’s how I remember everything in detail because I was just four, but I think I was in that adult consciousness. And then I also had my playfulness with me because I remember asking, hey, can I still will I still be able to play house? Can I still go fishing? So before that part of me would pop in, and that’s actually how I ended up coming back, is because my four year old self remembered how sad my mom would be if I didn’t come back, and as soon as I remembered that I was, I was back in my body.

Alison : Wow.

Rachel : So that’s how I know.

Alison : That’s absolutely gives me chills now. That is absolutely beautiful. So then what? After that, knowing that were you between your four year old self and this sort of adult self?

Rachel : Yes.

Alison : And then now. And so you sort of grew into the truth of you.

Rachel : Yes. I, I knew I had kind of two monologues going on. So sometimes I was, you know, going to, going to, you know, kindergarten, first grade, second grade and taking a spelling test, knowing this is really dumb. I’m going to be doing other things, but gosh, I really love spelling. And sometimes I, there were years that would go by that I would make myself forget or say to my angels, I do not want this. Take it away. I don’t want this. This is weird. I don’t want to be weird. And so it did go dormant for a while. And then, and that was actually part of my mission, is that I would experience an absolute human life full of a lot of, I would say, normal trauma, but it never feels normal when you’re going through it, because that’s the way I would be able to relate and help people and yeah, be be an angel walking on earth. Um, so yes, I was I’ve been playing both both roles… Full knowledge the whole time.

Jean : And so, Rachel, what what is an angel? And what’s the mission of an angel? Since we’re all…. Since we’re all from the divine.

Rachel : Yes.

Jean : Right. We are all divine beings. Um.

Rachel : An angel is an extension of source and is a messenger. Simply that. And all angels have something to share from source. And  my specific message is to help people understand that they are not separate from each other. Mm. That we’re we all came from a loving divine source. And that by being here and pretending that we’re Separate, you know that we’re all in these tailored suits we created, our bodies, but through being here, lifetime after lifetime, we get to remember that we’re actually from the same place, the same thing, and we get to remember that we’re all related. We’re actually all the same thing. We’re love. And when we remember that, we can start to get along again, we still get to have difference of opinions, but we can still play in the same yard. Yeah, that’s one of my big messages. And then the other big message I have for people that I’m supposed to share is we can,I’m supposed to be really tender about how I share this with people, we can grow with each other,  it’s like we can grow with each other at our own pace and be delightfully different…. I’m just going to say it this way-  every choice we make should come from a place of love. And if it doesn’t feel loving, we can always stop and course correct. Every choice is loving. That’s it, that’s it. That’s the message. Those are my two missions. That’s it. That’s all that I was told.

Alison : So what’s so interesting is Jean and I were just talking about that,

Jean : like boundaries.

Alison : What are boundaries, then? And where… Uh, I feel I’m in a belief system that says to me always, um, step in if someone needs help. Always.   Try to really be actively engaged in in that kindness. And then there’s a part of me that says, you know, maybe that isn’t kindness. Like there’s there’s this back and forth. Could you help clarify that at all for us?

Rachel : Yeah. I mean, sometimes you’re not supposed to because it’s their journey.

Alison :  Yeah.

Rachel : You get to sit with that and ask yourself,  it’s not selfish if you say is that good for me. I mean we’ve really been taught over and over that we’re supposed to help each other at all costs. We’re supposed to step in. But actually, what the angelic realm teaches us, who are pure messengers of God, however we define God, that there are many helpers that come in all forms. And so if it’s best for you to step back and let that person do their own, be on their own journey… Give them the time to do that, and trust that another helper will come through. And then it allows you to be loving to yourself and your own space, loving and safe. And it gives that other person freedom to grow a little bit so that you come from a place of absolute love for everyone. Might it hurt to see that person suffer? Yeah. That’s hard. It’s a hard choice. But hard choices can be very loving. This is real spirituality…. It’s not hallmark cards and rainbows all the time. It’s tough.

Alison : Yeah. Thank you.

Jean : Yeah. You know, I, I liken exactly what you said to like, a mother raising a child. And the child just wants all the cookies and you have to say, no. Um.

Rachel : But you want to say yes so badly, don’t you?

Jean : You have to say it. Right. And you so just love this person. And you’re like, here, you know, but you can’t. Right, right. And you know, Rachel, I heard you… I don’t know who was interviewing you, but it was a wonderful interview and I was like, wow…. With how you addressed the question about helping people with finances, people that are struggling financially. And you, um, you tuned into to the angels and, um, you gave like, 2 or 3  suggestions on you know, how to help someone change their mindset, who’s struggling financially.. Rather than always writing that check , giving them money. It’s like that parable, you know, teach a person to fish and they you fed them for life  …and you know, sometimes we just have to give the fish, at the end of the day.

Rachel : Yes, yes. But and that’s sometimes true.

Alison : Right,

Jean : So what do the angels say about helping people with their financial struggles?

Rachel : Mm.

Rachel : Well, what I’m hearing in this moment is that there’s an overwhelming sense of fear in our world,  that resources are going to go away. And what’s actually coming up for people is a lot of ancestral trauma, likely from, well, let’s just say generation generational trauma that’s coming back up to be healed where we might think it’s current. It’s not. It’s it’s in our DNA, it’s in our blood, it’s in our hearts. And we bravely brought that in with us to heal it for ourselves and for our ancestors. And so when we encounter someone that is fearful of money and is needing money or any, any type of abundance that they feel they’re lacking.

Rachel : We get to listen first. Listen to what’s coming up. What’s the why? Why are they in fear? What’s the pattern? And then when you have a moment, not then, don’t make it about yourself, but later kind of dog ear that conversation because they’re probably showing you something about you as well. Because everyone’s our mirror. I will say that, something’s coming up for us as well, always showing us something. But then people really are wanting to be heard right now. So just listening is one thing. What’s coming up that they just need you to hold space for them… And then I’m hearing the angels say, help them create a plan for the immediate so that the little person in them knows how their belly is going to be fed.

Rachel : Their loved ones can be fed. But then, there’s a vibrational frequency- everything around us has beautiful vibrational frequency. Everything has a vibe to it. Everything is dancing. Nothing here is flat in this dimension. Everything dances. And if you could help them look at everything around them as if it’s alive. Because it is. And they could start to talk to their car, if their car is breaking down. Talk to their name.  Talk to their car and say, all right, Phyllis,  i know you can do it. Five more Five more miles, baby. Five more miles. And put that love into their car. Just like they do to their children. And if they could talk to their pay stub and say, listen money, what do you need from me? And if they could hold that pay stub and change the momentum of what that money is doing, if it feels like the money’s always going out, if they could pull that money back and say, okay, I don’t want to keep you, you’re not my slave and I don’t want to keep you. I don’t want you to keep me either. But if they could hold that pay stub and say, all right, what’s our what’s our agreement here? What’s our partnership? And start to work with the energy of money. Now, not everybody’s ready to do that. Because when they are struggling, sometimes they just need to have their bellies full. So the first two steps I heard the heard the angels say were –  listen, hold space, feed the belly…. And maybe that’s a hug. Maybe that’s, can we go to coffee? But then, go to the upper level stuff, give them something to do, talk to it together. And what they’re saying is everything has frequency. Start to talk to money and redirect that energy. Because we have put so much energy into money in our country, that money now has a consciousness. It’s now talking back to us, so we can actually tell money what we want it to do. We can tell our sleep what we want it to do. We can tell our food. We can lift energy, negative energy, busy energy.., we can lift that off of our salad before we eat it, it will taste different. It will taste lighter.

Rachel : That’s what I’m hearing today.

Jean : That’s great.

Alison : That is amazing. Could you tell me, are, um, angels loved ones that have passed over or, like is there… It’s going to sound probably silly, is there like a hierarchy? Is there like, what is an what is an angel really like? I know I have guardian angels, but are they my past relatives?

Rachel : Um, technically, angels have never been human. So angels are created from pure energy, and they, there’s no real hierarchy. If you saw, if you saw a map of the angelic realm, there’s cherubs, there’s dominions, there’s a seraphim, but there’s there’s not upper management or anything like that…. We’re all we’re all equal on the other side. Just like it should be here.

Alison : Right.

Rachel :  Now, I could I could make a request to play around and be with the cherubs for a while, because we’re learners. You know, I could learn what it’s like to be at their in their realm if I wanted to. But my home is really seraphim. And so your loved ones ,really when your loved ones cross over, just like every person, there are really no real humans. Every human has come from somewhere divine. There are many angels. There are starseeds. Um, so we’re all wearing this beautiful tailored human coat. But if you think about it, we’re all divine immigrants. We come from somewhere. And so planet Earth is this amazing classroom space where we come to learn through play,  how it is to be together, learn these amazing life lessons. And earth is the place where the lower vibrational frequency stuff happens, like jealousy, hunger, even the perception of death. Where we don’t really live, we’re just here, we don’t really die, we’re just experiencing that. But we all come to Earth in this human like costume to to live for however many years we decide. But everybody here looks human, but we’re not– inside of us, our gooeyness, our spirit is. We’re all fractals of source, fractals of God. So there are many angels, you two, you may think you’re human, but you’re not right. You’re from someplace divine, figuring it out.  So your, your, your guides on the other side are a mix of angelic helpers. Both of you have two guardian angels that have been with you from the very beginning, and I would say those were assigned to you before all your lifetimes started. And they’ve never been human. I can recognize them kind of from my neighborhood. They are pure energy and light. And then for both of you, I can see family members that have passed, and then I can see ancestors, which I would qualify them as people who know you, but you don’t know them. Some of them are from other lifetimes, and they stay about a football field away, like they give you wisdom, but it wouldn’t be appropriate for them to even say anything because you wouldn’t know them at all.

Rachel : But they are there for you. And then you have some animals that you love that have passed, that kind of cuddle at your feet. And bring you comfort.

Jean : Mhm.

Rachel : Um, and you, you also have some colors behind you which are, I would say your personal aura colors. And then there’s some added colors behind you and I don’t really know what that’s about. That’s not my expertise. But I can ask your angels about that.

Rachel : Jean, you you have some kind of teal colors behind you, to your far right. Ohh, that’s Mother Mary. And she’s not Catholic. She’s associated with Catholicism a lot, but she’s not… She’s completely neutral. Are you a mama?

Jean : Yeah.

Rachel : Okay. Oh, and that’s not why, she says she’s with you and Allison, for sisterhood.

Jean : Yes.

Rachel : Yeah.

Alison : That almost makes me cry.

Jean : That’s so beautiful. Yeah.

Rachel : Yeah. And she’s wearing um…When she shows me what she’s wearing, when she comes in her human form…She’s wearing a cute, stretchy, um, tailored fit t shirt, and her hair is in a messy bun. She’s i think, she’s wearing, like, jeans, but I can’t really tell. But she’s modern.

Jean : Wow.

Rachel : Yeah.

Rachel : She’s there for both of you.

Alison : Oh, I love that. Now, when you say, um, that really is just… I know we could stop right now. Um, Rachel. Thank you. Um, when you say, um, you see them, do you really see them? Like, do you see them? Do you see things right now, or is it more like a sensing?

Rachel : It’s a mix of seeing them behind you, feeling them, and then they’ll flip to my mind’s eye, and then sometimes I can smell them, or I can feel them touching you while they touch me. If they put their hand on your back or they kiss the top of your head, I can feel that as well.  Or If they say something, I can, i can hear that. Not necessarily in my mind, but I can hear it right here. Kind of not in the room and not in my my head, but kind of in the space in between.

Alison : Wow.

Rachel : Yeah.

Alison : And how can we increase or anyone increase their communication with their, uh, angels and the whole sort of group around them? I feel like I’ve, I’m trying to work on that and I see real results, but I’m wondering what sort of steps could I take?

Rachel : They love that question.  So the first response I hear is, everyone can do this because we’re all made of the same thing. We’re all made of spirit. And their response is, create the opportunity. So meditating in a way that makes sense to you. And this is this is for anyone listening. And it doesn’t have to be a two hour meditation. It’s it could, it could be, you know, listening to your favorite song. The only thing that seems to get in the way would be a meditation where your body or your mind are too busy. So if someone’s trying to meditate while they’re, you know, going on a drive, if that works for someone, if they feel like they can multitask, go for it. Um, some people love to meditate while they run. That could be cool, because your body has a babysitter. But just creating the time to say, all right, um, angels or gosh, whoever’s around me, I would really love to to contact you. And just the words should be experience you around me. Because when you’re growing your your intuition, you want to stay open to your different clairs. You might think that you’ll see them, but don’t limit yourself to that. It could be so much more, and you don’t necessarily know your favorite clairs of your angels or your people on the other side. So if you’re just wanting to hear them, you might be limiting your peeps on the other side as well. So maybe use the word I’d love to experience you, or I’d love to just be with you and see what happens, and then have no expectations whatsoever.

Rachel : My favorite thing to do is I always have a warm cup of something. I usually forget to drink it, but I have a warm cup of something in my hands that grounds me, gives my body something to do. I like to put something in my ears that’s kind of a happy medium of something I like to listen to, but it but it doesn’t distract me. So maybe, light music with ocean waves or something. I typically will either stare out the window, you’ll see my eyes do that when I’m channeling. I’ll kind of look away, or I will put a sleep mask on and I’ll look behind my eyelids, because that’s looking into the quantum realm. We do that when we sleep, when we’re in the womb, um, when we blink, that’s fast. But we’re always we’re always there. So I’ll just kind of leave the planet and do that. And sometimes nothing happens. Sometimes everything happens. And I just try not to judge it. But what I hear them say is just give us the opportunity to be with you. Because once we come to planet Earth, gosh, we hit the ground running. We’re so busy. We’re always observing, and this is a way to just put the world on pause. And it doubles as soul care, self-care and bringing them in.

Alison : Um.

Rachel : We really don’t have to say anything like God protect me. But if it feels right to say that, go ahead. But your angels will already surround you in light and you’re not going to have any boogeyman come through or anything like that. That’s their promise.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : And so? So it’s important to ask the angels for help?

Rachel : Yes it is. Yeah. Great point.  Because, um,when we’re born, we have free will. When you’re not in a body, you are in the quantum realm. Some people call it the heavenly realm, and you’re with all the other spirit. And so though you always have choice, you behave a little differently. You’re not limited to your body. When you’re born, you’re in a body. You are limited to free will. And that, that rule of law um..It just helps us all live together and it helps you be in control of your own life. So your angels start to become your cheerleaders. And they don’t, they don’t intervene that much. If you say to your angels, I really want to experience you in meditation, but also say to them, would you participate in my life? Well, that changes them from cheerleaders to participants and you’re going to begin to see them sending you numbers… Um, gifts -might see little rocks shaped as hearts. You’ll even see them intervening in your life in ways that are so magical and meaningful. If you’re looking for a new career, they’ll start to drop things in your lap. Absolutely. But you must invite them in because, then they can work with your free will. You’ll experience them more than if you didn’t. Great point.

Alison : Can I ask someone else’s guardian angel something?

Jean :  that’s an interesting question.

Rachel : It depends. Yes. It depends. If they’re your children, yes. If they are your soulmate, yes. And if it’s a question that is for their highest good, yes.

Alison : Okay.

Rachel : If it’s a question that someone might ask about– Let me make up a scenario. If someone wanted, if someone had been on a first date and they want to ask that person’s angel, can you make them fall in love with me? Will they ever love me? That kind of stuff is off the table.

Alison : Yeah.

Rachel : I know it’s not what you meant. I’m making up a scenario. Um, then no, we can’t get in the way of privacy or free will. But you could say, I really enjoyed that date, would you please make sure that he gets home or she gets home safely– yes.

Alison : Okay. That’s, that’s yes. That’s more in line.

Rachel : Yes. See the difference there? Right.

Alison : Yes, yes, yes, I totally do.

Rachel :  you would think that everybody would err on the side of make sure she gets home safe– but when people are desperate for love or money, boy, they really try to get in with those angels and make them like they’re bounty hunters.

Alison : That’s funny, but you have children, right?

Rachel : Yes, I have three.

Alison : I saw, I saw, I follow you on Instagram and I saw that and I thought, I wonder if you ask for that, like talk to your children’s angels and sort of just say, you know, they’re going to a concert… Let them have fun and let them, you know, drive safely.

Rachel : I do, more than that, i hear from their angels when I’m starting to worry, and I’ll hear from them saying they’re fine. Go to bed.

Alison : Yeah. That’s good.

Rachel : yes, they are not going to do anything… they’re not going to lose a limb.

Alison : Right.

Rachel : They are nice people…. I get reassuances from them.

Alison : And I guess we all could get reassurances from…

Jean : I mean I do I ask, I don’t ask every day, but I definitely have evidence that when I do ask my angels, i get the help. And it can be something very frivolous to something really important, you know?  And you know, I was telling Allison, you know, we know this… We we we love following people like yourself, Rachel, that are, you know, championing, you know, there’s so much more to just what you see and ask your guides and your spirits and and then you forget that you get so caught up in the day to day and the, um, you know, the news and everything. So, um it’s really lovely that you are reminding us all to ask your angels. Bring them in. Um, I, I want to talk a little bit about your website and what you’re doing now and what you’re offering so our viewers can check out what’s going on in your orbit.

Rachel : Thank you. Well, I really I just live my life, to be honest. I have a podcast that I’m really passionate about and it’s called, Angel Talk.

Alison : It’s great.

Rachel : And it is on the Mind, Body, Spirit FM Network or wherever people get their podcasts. I am passionate about that because I believe that shows like yours and the podcast that I do, what I love about it is it allows people to get content about their spiritual growth in the privacy of their own heart.

Rachel : I just think that’s the best thing because, you know, I’m all for going to going to church if that’s for someone, but it’s not a private experience and this allows people to, you know, listen in their car, put their headphones in and it’s it’s profound.

Alison : Yeah.

Rachel : So I really appreciate what you’re doing. And I feel like I get to share in that track as well. So, mine’s called angel talk. So I would just gently invite anyone to listen to that. And it’s my my podcast is not overly edited. It can be kind of messy. I cuss sometimes, I’m in my human self, sometimes- I just talk about everything that comes through and I’m really passionate about it. So I would invite people to that. And then,  what I, what I do in my everyday life is this I have conversations with people who come to me and they want to connect with their angels or their people on the other side, and you can reach me to do that on my website. Rachelcorpus.Com and there’s different things we can do, whether that’s connecting to your other lifetimes or building your life. If you want to talk about abundance or grief healing…you name it.  And that’s all kind of listed on my website. So that’s me living my best life.

Alison : I have to tell you your podcast. What I really like about it is I feel like I got to know you listening to your podcast. It’s because you’re so authentically you.  you know?

Rachel :  that is true.

Alison : It feels like we’re just hanging out, and I really, I really like I really enjoy your podcast, so I’m glad that you’re doing it.

Rachel : I wanted it to be that way because when I was growing spiritually, I was having trouble finding someone that didn’t feel like a guru.

Alison : Right.

Rachel : Right. And I just wanted a neighbor.

Jean : Yeah.

Rachel : I wanted a girlfriend. So I thought, well, I’m going to be that.

Alison : Exactly. And that’s how you totally come across. So it’s really it’s it’s a it’s fun. It’s I think it’s a fun podcast.

Rachel : Thank you.

Alison : I really enjoy it.

Rachel : I appreciate hearing that. So, I just wanted to bring people along with me. So that’s what we do.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : And and I’ll say that, you know, listening to your interviews with various people like Alison and me, they’re they’re so inspiring. And I, I’ve been in this, uh, you know, spiritual self-awareness, self-help growth for a long time… And, you know, the way you say it, your voice and everything, it just it felt so loving and uplifting. So thank you.

Alison : Thank you very much.

Alison : We have two quick questions to ask you… Our podcast, also on mind, body, spirit, -which we love,  um, uh, is insidewink and we’re wondering what you think insidewink means to you?

Rachel : I absolutely love that question. And I thought about it a lot. I have kind of a weird answer for you.

Alison : I love that.

Rachel : I hope that’s okay.

Jean : Yeah.

Rachel : I’ve been thinking a lot about timelines. And when you know that you’re moving into a new timeline, and I realized that I’d been looking for a word.– Okay, let me say it this way. When you’re asleep, there’s this moment when you know that you’re having a lucid dream and you can kind of control it. Well, I’ve become aware that when you’re awake, there are also these moments where you realize, oh, there’s another timeline sprouting. I can control that but I didn’t have a word for it. Guess what? It’s an insidewink.

Alison : I Kind of love that.

Jean : Wow.

Alison : Now, what do you mean? I’m sorry? What do you mean, another timeline sprouting?

Rachel : So, Um, I think if you went back maybe five years , we didn’t have,  there was a sense of separateness, where we were just… It was the year we were in, and it was moving slow. Now it feels like time is catching up with us. Things are moving fast, and all of us have these parallel realities,  where here you are as Allison, and there are other versions of you in the universe where there,  you know, there’s a version of you that’s not spiritual at all. And she’s thriving… Looks just like you… But in that universe, there are subtle differences. So there are all these versions of you that are thriving, but you don’t run into her, because she’s those other versions are in a different frequency, like on a different channel.

Alison : Mhm.

Rachel : We all have those. And so we’re having an interview on those different channels…. We’re probably wearing something slightly different, talking about something slightly different…. Or the three of us are, are doing something different. We’re digging a ditch. We’re doing community service or something. Maybe we did something naughty, but we’re still having a conversation.

Alison : Right.

Rachel : Well, all of those timelines are starting to converge because we’re all awakening. So all those versions of us are starting to come into this timeline because we’re all awakening. So our spirit center is pulling all that wisdom into one. So we do this when we sleep all the time, because one dream will turn into another dream and you walk into another house, those timelines converging. Now it’s starting to happen when we’re awake and you get these moments where you’re like, wait a minute, how did I get on this street? Or wait a minute the clock just said this, and how did it just take five minutes for me to do that? That’s when you know, a timeline is converging or you have déja vu  It’s timeline converging. And I didn’t know what to call that. I was trying to call it a nexus point. I was trying to call it these things that I had maybe heard in a movie or a show, and I’m going to call it an inside wink.

Alison : I totally know what you’re talking about. And that’s… Yeah, that’s an honor that you call it that.

Jean : Yeah, Allison was the one that came up with our podcast name,  inside wink.

Alison : And it’s funny because everybody that we ask has something so beautiful and like, profound to say, and it really relates to them. Like it’s really a reflection of them. It’s just been a great question.

Rachel : Yeah, I love it. At first I was like, I don’t know what it is for me…

Alison : You know, you do know.

Rachel : Yeah.

Jean : Okay, so our last question before before we say,  see you later-  is do you prefer cake, pie or ice cream cake?

Rachel : Cake.

Jean : Okay.  Do you have a favorite?

Rachel : Yeah. I’m going to say, like, leftover wedding cake that’s been in the fridge.

Alison : Okay.

Rachel : And a fork.

Alison : I love that.

Jean : Yum.

Rachel : Yeah.

Alison : Very specific.

Rachel : In the middle of the night..

Alison : Yeah. In the middle of the night. Right. But standing up.

Rachel : Yeah. Like in my underwear.

Jean : That’s right.  And then you go to the refrigerator in the morning and you say, did I eat that much cake?

Alison : That’s a Timeline convergence.

Rachel : It wasn’t me…it was the other me..

Alison : it was the other Allison. Exactly. Exactly. Thank you so much. You’re such a joy. This has been so much fun. Thank you.

Jean : Very lovely. We really appreciate you so much. And the angels.

Alison : Yes.

Jean : Always being there…. Ready to assist.

Rachel : Yeah. Thank you. It’s been lovely.

Alison : Have a beautiful, beautiful day.

Rachel : You too. Take care. Thanks.

Alison : We’ll see you soon. Bye.

Rachel : All right. Bye.

Jean : Bye, Rachel.

Rachel : Bye.

Alison : Whenever we have these interviews, I always feel different. I always feel like… Wow… There are so many incredibly beautiful, interesting, good people out there really making an effort to connect us all.

Jean : Yeah, connect us all and help us all remember that we are vibrational beings and that we are responsible for keeping our vibration benevolent, high, good, especially, especially… And that’s the big paradox, given the big changes that the the world is going through.

Alison : Right, exactly. And, you know, it’s just the remembering of that during these times, really remembering that and remembering that that you’re going through that and remembering that this person’s going through that, just to remember who we are…

Jean : right, And and to be kind and, and I think that’s it, she said… Rachel said that shortly into our her interview with us,  to to be love, to be kind right?

Alison : We are love and her podcast really is great. It’s called Angel Talk and it’s on the same network that we are on.

Jean : Mind Body Spirit.

Alison : Right… And it’s- so if you have a moment and want to listen to to her, she’s— and her website is full of information and it’s great.

Jean : And she offers one on one sessions. So yeah, that was that was a gift from the angels to speak to her.  Thank you, Angels!

Alison :  thank you so much. Give your angels a shout out today everybody and we hope you enjoyed it.

Jean : Bye.

Alison : Bye.

Alison: I would like, I would like to hear about us. Go ahead. We both inhaled… There’s no air left in the closet.

Jean : We have to find a better place to do this than in, than my closet.

Alison: Although it’s nice in here, we have to try back at my house again. We just got back from trips.

Jean : We did. Yes. You were up in San Francisco.

Alison: And you were in Sedona. We go to the s words.

Jean : That’s right. Right. Well, I have to say, Sedona was absolutely beautiful. It snowed, which is very rare. So I thought that was like a wink from God. Yeah,

Alison: I love that. Yeah. And I was in San Francisco. It Didn’t snow, but it was beautiful. We had such a great time visiting my eldest, our eldest child.  And, um, you know, I realized you travel a lot… I realize I rarely travel and I like it, and I also don’t like it. Do you feel that mixed way or do you just hands down like it?

Jean : I like it, I don’t like to do big trips back to back, but I do enjoy traveling.

Alison: Like, do you go somewhere and then go? I want to go home.

Jean : Yeah, maybe after ten days I start itching for that. Especially if I don’t talk to you or my daughter or Matt.

Alison: I guess I felt like about halfway through, or maybe not even halfway, just a little bit of the way through. I’m like, I could go home now. Yeah. And then like, you perk up a bit.

Jean : Yeah. I think that’s a great feeling.

Alison: Yeah. It was, it was excellent. Yeah. And, um, and I think traveling is interesting because you are seeing things with new eyes that you haven’t seen before. Yeah. Do you know which I kind of love?

Jean : I totally agree, and I think for me it has brought about a new type of self-reliance. Because when I would travel with Alex, he took care of everything. He held the passports. He he had the airline tickets. It was just- I followed Alex through the airport and, you know, and now when I travel, I have to really be mindful of where did I put my tickets?

Alison: Right. That’s good.

Jean : Do I have my luggage? Did I leave it in the bathroom? You know, so I don’t have exactly.

Alison: Are my shoes on? Yes. I’m leaving the plane with my shoes. That’s exactly it. But that’s good growth.

Jean : Yeah. It is.

Alison: It’s growth. And speaking of growth, we have the best guests today, right?

Jean : We do.

Alison: They are amazing. And, um, they’re your friends. So why don’t you introduce them? Well, she’s your friend.

Jean : Well, I know Liz from the the church that we both went to. We are both we are both practitioners there. And oh, Allison, I was surprised to know that Paul is a practitioner as well, which doesn’t surprise me the way he thinks. Um, so it’s Liz and Paul Raci.

Alison:  he’s a fantastic actor. They’re both, First of all, they’re both fantastic people. He’s a fantastic actor. That was in sound of the Sound of Metal and most recently Sing Sing. Oh, what a great movie that that is, huh? We want everyone to see it and just champion rehabilitation through art. Right.

Jean : And the acronym is RTA. And as you just said,  rehabilitation through arts. It is such a powerful program to assist men in prison and women, I’m sure in prison as well incarcerated through the arts.

Alison: And so here, take a listen. Fantastic.

Paul : Hey, there.

Alison: Hi. How are you?

Paul : Great. I’m going to turn the volume up a little bit because I had to turn down. There you go. Hello there.

Jean : Hi, Paul. Hi, Liz.

Liz: How are you guys?

Alison: Great. I’m Alison,

Liz: Nice to meet you.

Jean : And I was sharing with Alison that Liz and I go way back, although we didn’t really talk so much at church because you (Liz) were in the teen church, and I was more in the office. But I certainly knew when you were on the grounds. And, um, I remember the great concerts you put on at the church. I think that was with your daughter playing in in the band. Yeah.

Alison: That’s fantastic. Thank you both so much for talking with us. You know, Paul, I’ve been a big fan of yours for a while now, and you’re so talented and so authentic in everything you do. So I really appreciate you talking to us about this incredible movie. Sing sing .

Paul : Yeah, well, thank you for your kind words. Uh, I’m just so happy to be doing what I’m doing in some very important movies, so it’s very good for me.

Alison:  Well, sound of Metal, you were fantastic. And this one, I think I cried through this whole film.

Paul : Yeah, it’s kind of hard, but the movie is so heartfelt and made, uh, with these two young guys that wanted to make a movie about the incarceration system with the way the whole the whole thing unfolded. Finally, using about 9 or 11 of the actual inmates who served time. And they’re finally out, and now they’re playing themselves in the movie all the way down to I don’t know if you’re aware of this, but these two young men that made the movie Gregg Kidder and, uh, Clint Bentley. Bentley I was gonna say Huntley, but Bentley, the two young guys that, uh, had an idea that they wanted to have a new kind of a system where it’s equal parity all the way around for people that make movies. Now, just think about this. Think about anybody that like Amazon, uh, Netflix, Apple, all these streaming platforms that have tons of money. I mean, this much money. And they make the movie and then they give all the actors about this much apiece for the time being, and then they keep making it the, the money as time goes along. This new paradigm, This new model makes sure that everybody that worked on the movie, including the costume designer, uh, the editor, the cinematographer, everybody, including the biggest star in the movie, Colman Domingo, of course. And then there’s me. I’m after him. And then there’s other well, everybody got paid the same thing.

Paul : So to understand what that looks like in the big picture is as the movie grows and it’s, uh, as it spreads around the globe, and the more people that see it, the more money it makes. And in the old paradigm, uh, or uh system, the usual, the usual, the, the producers get this much, they keep getting this much and all. Well, now this everybody gets the same. Everybody, including the guy who wrote the editor notes, including the as I said, the the press notes, the press notes, uh, the, uh, the costumer. This is unheard of. Everybody’s getting the same checks, and we’ve already received a few checks along the way. And I have to say, it’s not like nothing I’ve ever experienced. And to think that the nine or 10 or 11 guys that are in the movie that are formerly incarcerated, this is their first movie. They’re getting the same checks that I’m getting that Coleman is getting, and it’s nothing like I’ve ever experienced before. So. And they’re telling their own story is what I’m trying to come back to. My point about who more deserves this than the guys who actually actually lived the experience in Sing Sing went through this RTA program. Now they’re on the other side. And so they’re feeling like they’re feeling like actors. Yeah, they’re pursuing careers. All of them.

Paul : Every single one of them. So, uh, I don’t know how I got off on that, but I just want to make the point about the that new system. And I’ve had, uh, other producers that have had conversations with big time producers in this city who ask me, well, how did this parity system work? I kind of like to try that myself. So don’t think it’s not going to spread because it is already people are rethinking. Now we just had you know, we went through Covid, the strike, all these things that have the fires, everything I could possibly think of to cripple our industry here in Los Angeles. It’s almost like you take it personal, like what’s going on here? But they’re trying. They’re already noticing that there’s another way to do it. And so this is a tiny, you know, like a little window into the future of what it may be like. And I think it’s for the better for the industry, for actors and people that that want to get a foot into the industry. But it’s so locked down with everybody’s got all the power up there. This kind of weakened that a little bit. And, uh, I don’t know if I should say that as really it’s strengthened it to a point where everybody can get a little piece of the pie. Yeah. Or more than they had.

Liz: And also, you know, this particular film, we’re just hoping, um, divine G. Whitfield who Colman played, um, he, he was, you know, wrongly incarcerated, finally was released, and he’s trying to get exonerated. So he was nominated for a BAFTA award for Adapted screenplay. And he couldn’t go to the BAFTA Awards because he’s a felon, but he was wrongly incarcerated. So we’re hoping that this also will just bring to the forefront. Hey, everybody, pay attention. And we’re we’re sending around this, um, uh, thing to sign to support ivine G, to be exonerated.

Paul : Of a crime he never committed.

Liz: Exactly. So that he can travel the world unencumbered. Mhm.

Paul : And this is just one example, right of, uh, the wrongs that have been done to so many of our incarcerated, uh, people. I don’t want to say people of color. There’s also other guys that I as I get deeper into this, there’s a lot of guys that have been wrongly accused and that it’s just dropped. And then they they find out later on. That’s why I’m absolutely against a capital punishment. This is insane. Too many guys have been.

Liz: Wrongly incarcerated.

Paul : And wrongly executed… There’s no there’s no reason for it. There’s no reason for that. So there’s so many things that have to be done. But this is– Sing Sing is a great beginning for a different way to look at, uh, incarceration and, um, the cruelties of it, the inhumanity of it, The non rehabilitation. It’s not rehabilitation it’s punishment. It’s punitive,  in most cases.

Alison: You know in this… there were no tropes in this.

Paul : Exactly.

Jean : What does Trope mean?

Alison: Like uh like a gang fight or uh like a thing that you would expect. The expectation is to see in a prison movie because…

Paul : Yeah. Because what we’ve seen, like, how about Oz? A lot of rape, a lot… You know what? Clarence Macklin, the guy who, uh played Divine Eye in the movie…the guy that made the big sensation he was almost nominated for.

Alison: Right.

Paul :  He says, Paul, I never saw myself, uh, portrayed– i’ve seen every prison movie around, while he was in prison for all those years. And they show these prison movies ,  I never saw myself up on the screen. You weren’t thinking about sex back here. This is insane. But Sing-Sing, for the first time, you see that behind the walls of Sing-Sing, there are guys that are actually trying to improve, change their lives. They realize that now  after doing crimes when they’re 18 or 19, and now they’re like 30.  Oh my God.

Liz: And so many of them said, you know, had I been introduced to this program when I was 14, 15, 16, I never would have ended up here.

Paul : Had they met a teacher like this acting teacher that came into the prison.

Jean : So let’s talk about the program – RTA. What does it stand for,  for our audience and and what is RTA?

Liz: It’s rehabilitation through the arts.

Paul : So Brent Buell, the guy I played in the movie, wanted to use an acting teacher. He wanted to bring a program into the prison. Everybody told him he was crazy, that he’d be taken advantage of. That this was a crazy idea. And again, uh, when I think about the people I grew up with in Chicago, um, I don’t want to…. I’m trying to not characterize it too mega like. But people people believe in this punitive system. I hear it in, uh, right wing radio all the time, you know, because I like to listen to the other side and, you know, it’s like these guys got to be put away. Yeah. And punished.  But you have no idea what his history is up until the point where he was incarcerated now. So, uh, he brought the program in there and ended up making the best friends of his life in the behind the walls of Sing Sing, because he met some guys that were craving for some kind of salvation. Not salvation on the outside, but their own salvation. What can make me feel whole, complete, like I’m doing something and acting happened to be that avenue for a lot of these guys, just like, uh, and I always liken it to myself. When I got out of Vietnam, I went in 1969 when I was 21. I got out four years later, uh, totally confused and addicted to everything. And then I met an acting teacher, and I was like, wait, I had this awakening of, oh, this is what I’m supposed to be doing. This is what these guys went through in the walls of Sing Sing. Great stuff. They did 12 Angry Men, Midsummer Night’s Dream. They’re doing plays and really getting involved and having something to live for while they’re serving a 35 year sentence.

Liz: And the interesting thing is that we need this program to really spread because RTA has expanded. It’s not just theatre. There’s various prisons right now doing RTA, but they’re doing it as dance. They’re doing it as poetry. You know, they’re doing it as hip hop. In other words, is rap art. The thing is, art, whatever, whatever that looks like, whatever that form is of art, they’re just finding art in their soul. That then helps to heal. And we need that to be proliferated everywhere.

Paul : Um, proliferated.

Liz: That’s right.. What he just said.

Paul : Can you tell we’re married?

Alison: I love it.

Liz: 35 years married.  Um, but it’s only in six prisons in New York.

Paul : There are a few throughout the country.

Liz: It should be in every prision.

Paul : It should be, but, you know, uh, as you see the trope or the idea, the old ideas of, you know, God, when I was a kid, James Cagney in White Heat. Hey, Ma, top of the world, all these prison things, and you see them as tough guys. Uh, they’re no angels. All these movies I grew up with, those are tropes of what these guys are like. You have no idea. These are. They’re just like you and me. Yeah. Yeah. I made a mistake when they were not even 21. Yeah. Wow. And there’s so many of them because of what’s going on in our country.  Uh, because of the class system or the, uh, things that are going on in our inner cities where where guys feel more at home with gangs and doing their bidding rather than, uh, doing your bidding to an acting teacher who wants to help you heal the world through art.

Liz: Yeah. And what struck me when Paul got done shooting and came back home is, you know, he’d spent, uh, his dressing room was a cellblock, so he didn’t want to go in there because they were they’re actually shooting in prison.

Paul : We’re actually in a facility. Yeah.

Liz: And the prison where they were actually shooting is all closed off. The windows didn’t open. It was hot as can be. And, you know, so that was the only place to really hang out. So he hung out with all these guys, some wrongly incarcerated, some who as a young man on the wrong path did commit a crime. And what when Paul came home, what he said to me was, I just see humanity in all of them. I see humanity in all of it. And I’m like, that’s what we hope this film will bring to the country, to the world. There’s humanity in all of us. Yeah.

Paul : It used to be a softening around this whole idea of how we incarcerate men and women and then treat them in this punitive fashion. That’s not rehabilitation. And you’re not even trying to rehabilitate. There’s so much humanity there.  it’s heartbreaking… Heartbreaking.

Alison: Did you shoot in Sing-sing?

Paul :  We shot in a place, like, kind of kitty corner from Sing Sing. Sing Sing is Still an operational prison. There was another facility right in the area that was empty, and that was a depressing place to be. No, uh, they’d have a gigantic fan going on in this room, and then we had to turn the fan off and shoot a scene, and then you’re shvitzing after, you know, it’s like, oh, my God, this is so hot here.

Liz: Welcome to Hollywood.

Alison: Yeah.

Liz: So glamorous.

Paul : But you know what? This film, um, could not be shot in Hollywood because they wouldn’t do it, right. This was shot in a real place.These guys that were…. Now they’re out of prison. Now they got to go back in to shoot this movie and put these prison greens back on. Clarence just said, God, this itches so. It’s just making me feel so uncomfortable and and, you know, looking behind my shoulder and I can understand that. Um, but it was the perfect place to shoot. What a wonderful experience. These guys are just great.

Alison: Was it was it, um, had you been in a prison before, Paul?

Paul : Oh, yeah. Well, that’s another thing about me. I’ve heard that question many times. You know, for the last 40 years, I’ve been a sign language interpreter in the Los Angeles, uh, court system. An American Sign Language interpreter. I’ve been in many prisons for interviews with attorneys, so I’ve been there many times. It wasn’t my first rodeo in a prison. I knew what it felt like. I’ve been in lockups all the time doing interviews before we go into court, see the judge. This is my while I was a struggling actor trying to make it. I was doing that. That was my job. That’s why I bought this house. That’s how I put my kid through college, not with Hollywood money. Then after I was all done. Isn’t that weird how life is? After I was all done with putting my kid through college? All done with that. Uh, it really just been very comfortable with who I am. Then I get this big break doing a movie, which I’d been acting in theater all that time, trying to be an actor and just doing theater at Deaf West Theatre wherever I could and keeping my chops up. And then finally, when the time came at the age of, uh.

Liz: 74.

Paul : No, no.  Well, I was I was younger than that, I was 70.

Alison: Oh, you were a spring chicken.

Paul : I was, I was 69 or 70 when I got the nomination. Yeah. That was life changing. Just like life changing overnight. Um, so I’m kind of, uh, happy with the way it happened. I got to live my life and do the things that I needed to do. Uh.

Liz: All that time, the most important thing to you was raising our daughter.

Paul : Yeah. Yeah, I was trying to raise my daughter. Keep her happy.

Liz: And that’s easy. Yeah.

Alison: That’s beautiful though.

Paul : Yeah. It is. It’s totally beautiful.

Alison: Yeah. Yeah, right.

Alison: Did you. Do you feel that this movie brought you closer to any sort of spiritual understanding for yourself?

Paul : Uh, that’s a good question, but, um, no, I don’t think so. I think it just deepened it. I’d already had, you know, Liz and I trained at Agape International Spiritual Center. We became practitioners there. We ran a few ministries there. We had all this God like 15 years of service there. That’s another thing I’ve been serving all those years. And, uh, so when I actually got the nomination after all that, I thought, well, you know what? Okay. Uh, things happen for the best, but it deepened my and strengthened what I already knew, which is that all there is is one thing going on. Uh, everything’s going to be okay.

Jean : Mhm.

Paul : It’s going to be fine. I mean, I know everybody’s going through, but, uh, you really have to listen…. The biggest lesson I  learned from becoming a practitioner was this one guy says, look, the universe is like a yes machine. So whatever you say out loud, that goes right to the universe. And the universe says, yes. So if you say, um, you know, I’m not worth anything. The universe goes great… you’re not, and here’s some more of that, Paul. Or how about, I just, i can’t make it, i’m going paycheck to paycheck to the universe goes, great… you like that, don’t you? You’re going to get more of that. So I learned quickly and it’s still a ping pong game because you’re going back and forth of, uh, I have to, I must, it doesn’t serve me to think that way because the universe always says, yes.  If I say life is horrible, the universe says, yes. How about… , life is horrible… The universe goes, oh you’re right.  Life is good. Life is… There’s always enough to go around. The universe goes. Yeah. You’re right. So that’s the, that’s the change you got to make or the shift. Yeah, I think I make that little click of, i’m not going to say that anymore because the universe really gives you what you put out… The Universes says, yes.

Alison: Yeah.

Jean : Right, right.

Liz: It’s interesting because with all this, um, craziness going on in our country right now, it can be very weighing on your heart and your soul and your mind. And so we’re doing this thing like when we see something new or hear something new, you know, on the news or whatever. And I go, oh, it’s every day we run to each other and go, I am unbotherable… Are you unbothered?

Paul :  I’m unbothered. You can’t bother me.

Alison: Oh, I love that.

Jean : Do you guys have a have a spiritual, like a practice in the morning together or anything that you.

Liz: Meditation.

Paul :  The only thing we do together is we have sex. The other is our pray.

Jean : Do you want us to keep that in the interview?

Alison: Yes.

Paul : You know, I think it’s the… That’s that’s kind of the glue.

Liz: Okay. 35 years married. He’s still the sexiest thing I’ve ever laid eyes on. True.

Paul : You got that?

Alison: I love that. Yeah. Yeah.

Paul : No, no. She’s got her thing. I have my thing.

Liz: He’s more of a Buddhist. And, you know, from North Hollywood, I have a different kind of practice. But he’s more of a Buddhist. But still, practice is practice. One is oneness. Love is love.

Paul : But one thing we do have is agreement. And we are in agreement on, uh, not speaking. Boy, it’s so easy to slip off that thing and move over to things. This is this is this is not. It’s too easy. I’m so everybody’s influenceable or influencers out there or whatever. Um, no I’m not. It doesn’t bother me. I don’t care what that guy is doing in the I don’t care, I don’t care. I’ve got what I have to accomplish today, and thank God, uh, or whatever you want to thank. Sing Sing was a gift in my lap. And it’s out to do more and more good. More and more good. Now I’m on to the next project.

Jean : Which is. Tell us about your next project.

Paul : I have several.

Liz: He’s got like so many.

Alison: Oh. I love that.

Paul : Yeah, it’s very good.

Jean : Okay, great.

Paul : Uh, I’ll tell you one thing. That kind of fell in my lap is, uh, again, there’s this young man, uh, brilliant young man who wrote a script about solitary confinement and the horrors of that. Uh, these guys in solitary confinement talk about the punitive system. Yeah. These guys are not even allowed to listen to a Dodger game in solitary confinement for 13, 14 years at a time. So I’m. I’m delving into that subject. There’s a script that we’re looking at right now that that might get into that. This this is horrible. This is this is not the way humanity should be treating humanity. I don’t care what’s happened. There’s a story behind every story, and there’s got to be a little bit of, uh, uh, dare I say it, uh, you know, forgiveness. Yeah, I set it all out, but I don’t know. Yeah.

Alison: Yeah, that’s one of our favorite words.

Jean : Yeah and compassion and forgiveness. Right? And I think for me watching… Let’s go back to Sing Sing since, uh, I was really drawn to how the character you played Paul Brent, how he elicited the humanness from these men that have been so armored.

Paul : Yeah.

Jean : Armored their feelings. Right. And how this acting coach helps them get in touch and and I thought and so one of the…. So can you talk about that a little bit how how your character helped…

Paul : It was good to see him on the set. He was right there.

Alison: Wow.

Paul : I could see when we were during lunchtime, all the guys would gather around him and he was like this guy that they just respected and and he absolutely respects them and their humanness and with their foibles and everything, the whole thing there. And so I just was there, uh, noticing their relationship and how they interacted. So that gave me a good beat and how I could act with them when the cameras went on. In other words, everybody’s just mano a mano, just equal, uh, trying to get some work done here. Um, he’s a he’s this guy is, uh, a real he’s a good man. He. When a lot of these 3 or 4 of these guys got out of their incarceration period had nowhere to go, him and his wife, Janice, would take them into their own house. Oh. How many? Let’s be honest here. Come on. That’s a tall order. Take them into their house for….

Liz: Weeks and weeks and weeks, helping them find a job, getting all their papers in order, setting them up someplace for weeks.

Paul : Yeah. When I got back from Vietnam, uh, years and years ago in my first marriage, I had a Vietnam buddy that came back and I put him up in my house and he ripped me off. He stole all my cash and left, uh, you know, so… But that just shows you, uh, a that was disappointing.

Alison: Yeah.

Paul : And he was a friend of mine, but he didn’t. He was in a he was in firefights. He was in the jungle. I wasn’t in the jungle. I was a medic on a ship. I was doing another job. So my heart goes out to him and I wish him well, whatever happened to him. But, that’s the kind of thing that people warned Brent against. Don’t take these guys into your house. But he did. He’s a real man and I’m happy to be friends with him and his wife right now. But he’s a good man who had good intentions, and he’s spreading the word and trying to get this program out there more, which absolutely deserves to happen. You know.

Alison: I love that you equate a real man with vulnerability and kindness, because I think men have gotten them a message that does not always say that. And, um, my son, you know, is is 25 and he is um, I think it’s hard to be a man.   Did you get close to these guys or did you? Do you feel like now? Like you’ve made, like, lifelong friends?

Paul : Yeah, yeah. A couple of guys still call me on the phone.

Liz: We were doing the awards and festival circuit together. We all, you know, we were all hanging around for many days and traveling here and hanging out, and, um. Yeah, I consider them family. Every one of them.

Paul : Yeah.  But that connection, that bond actually happened while we were filming. We’d be having lunch every day, and a guy would tell me how it happened. I ask this guy, how did you end up in Sing Sing? He told me this this weird, fantastical story of a soprano type guy in new Jersey.

Alison: Wow.

Paul : You know, a hit man fulfilling a job. And then the other guy squealed on him. And then now they’re in Sing Sing for 33 years.

Alison: Wow.

Paul : And every single one of these guys would tell me their stories, and they would say, you know what? If I hadn’t met Brent Buell when I was 19? Oh, my God, my life would have been different. And I know, I know.

Liz: Art heals.

Paul : Art heals. That’s that really is the point. It really can. And it does.

Alison: Did you cry a lot on the set?

Liz: He cries a lot. All the time.

Alison: Does he. Because I just seeing you makes me wanna cry.

Paul : She’s talking about the sex. HAHAHAH,Um it’s an emotional uh place to be at.  You just it’s, a great bubble to be in. It was only like a 19 day shoot. So you’re in this bubble and there’s all this stuff going on and all these emotions going back and forth during improvs and talking about it. It’s right underneath the surface. So that for me as a professional, you’ve just got to realize what’s going on here. And then at the right moment you let it out. But these guys were doing a great job, man, when I think about, uh, some of the stuff they did, like I say, it was right there on the surface, ready to pop out. Um, when the time came and they were doing a great job. Dino is one example. Uh, the big, big black guy was….Dino blew me away in that scene. That’s in the movie he talks about… You know, we’re here to put on nice clothes and dance around and, oh my God, sorry…(PAUL STARTS TEARING UP).

Liz: See, he cries all the time.

Paul : Okay. But he it’s really an amazing moment because he was being so real that it blew us all away.

Liz: Yeah. And a lot of, um, a lot of Paul stuff when he was like leading them through a meditation or a thing that was improvised.

Alison: Wow. I was going to ask that. That’s amazing.

Jean : Oh, I love those.

Paul : They would just say, Paul, lead them in because they know I’ve been, uh, a practitioner and minister. So I would just lead them through a meditation and, uh, wow… The one around the circle where they’re all talking about.—-. That’s all real. That’s all that scene is for real.

Jean : And that shows how powerful the mind is, how powerful our thoughts, our thoughts are. And that you can say, okay, think about your most favorite place to be.

Paul : Right

Jean :  oh, and you know, I never do that. I mean, sometimes I’ll do that, but but to go,  like, what’s my favorite place? And now what am I feeling. Because you, we’re so easily drawn into what feels the bad.

Paul : Which is what I’m trying to say about that universe thing, because when you do that, Jean, when you do that, when you go, what’s my favorite place? Then the universe goes, how about if I gave you some more of that? Just like an algorithm, you know, these algorithms on Facebook, when you click something –like, I want to buy a pair of boots and the algorithm goes, oh, you like boots? Here’s a whole bunch of more boots. That’s what I’m talking about. The mind goes, I want to think about my favorite place. I remember being with my wife on a picnic. We had a bottle of wine. I love that the universe goes…. Would you like some more of that? Okay. Yeah, that’s the whole thing, right? It’s just awesome.

Jean : Awesome. So Paul and Liz is there, um, because we’re while we’re already half an hour in, but is there like a website that our listeners can go to to look and to maybe help this program.

Liz: Yeah. RTA.com.

Jean : RTA– so simple

Paul :  you’re going to a rabbit hole.

Liz: they need all kinds of support Yeah. Financial And also people just to come in and support the program in person. RTA rehabilitation through the Arts.

Paul : Or Maybe it will help somebody look at the system. We have the penal system we have right now and go. Mm mm. It’s something’s wrong with that.

Liz: How about if we don’t have corporations run our prisons anymore? Mm.

Alison: I know.

Liz: How do we change that?

Jean : Yeah. You know, as I was getting ready for this interview. I was listening to an interview you did ,Paul, with someone, and you were saying how in indigenous communities, the person that has been that is being reprimanded or being looked at– the community embraces them with love rather than you did this wrong, you’re a loser. They were more like, you’re my beloved grandson. Yeah.

Paul : Yeah, right.

Liz: That’s so true.

Paul : They put them in the middle of a circle to surround them, and I say, you know, I remember when you were ten years old.

Liz:  And you helped my grandma do this, and I, you know, instead of what you just did wrong, how you were just egregious in your behavior. No. We’re going to remember who you really are. Let’s all come together and remember who you are. And then you can let that go, and you can forgive yourself and move forward.

Paul : That doesn’t happen.

Liz: Not in America.

Paul : Not in our current incarcerations. No.

Alison: Liz, what you’re saying is so perfect about remembrance, remembering who we are.

Paul : Right

Alison: And that’s why this movie is so, you know, you know, it had tones of, um, bits of Shawshank Redemption.

Paul : Yeah, a little bit.

Alison: Because they they’re such…. You fall in love with all these people. You fall in love with them. You know, we fell in love with you and all the characters and. And it’s remembering the truth of who we are. Did you did you raise your child that way? Like, do you feel….

Paul : Yeah.

Liz: It’s so funny because, you know, we raised her that way and we, you know, taught her the spiritual principles that we believe in. And I’m like, it’s not taking, it’s not taking. It’s just doesn’t take. And then and then she goes off to college and she calls me and she goes, you know, mom, I find if I meditate first thing in the morning, I have a better day. I’m like, it took!! IT TOOK!!!

Alison: That’s right.

Paul : And there’s still there’s still she’s out there on her own now, but there’s still the temptations, as we were talking about, of falling off that, uh, that mountaintop of understanding and going with what the influence is saying. What what CNN is saying. What Fox news. Ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba. And then you start to believe it. And that’s that’s where you need to grow some spiritual balls.

Liz: But when she falls off that place, she’ll text me, give me an affirmation mom.

Jean : Very nice.

Paul : Yeah. It’s not you know, it’s it’s difficult, it’s a challenge. But um I don’t know uh, we’ve been on it so strongly lately. Uh, we feel good about what’s going on. So I know it doesn’t look good right now, but…

Liz: We’re not going into the quagmire.

Paul : No, it’s… It’s really all happening for the best. And it’ll take a while, but, you know, it goes this way, this way, that way. But I am going to stay on point. I’m unbotherable— how about you?

Jean : UNBOTHERABLE…I love that.

Liz: We’re focusing on the good.

Alison: That’s right, that’s right.

Paul : Yeah. And that’s important.

Alison: Did you want to ask our last two questions?

Jean : Sure. Okay. So we’re going to wrap up, you guys.

Alison: And thank you so much.

Jean : This has been Awesome, I know I could have, I know both of us could have chatted with you all afternoon. But we’re going to wrap up pretty soon here with the last two questions. And they are, what does inside wink mean to you?

Paul : Inside wink. I like the way you, uh. I’ve never heard it described that way before. Uh, you know, I’m a coder. I’m a child of deaf adults. You probably saw the movie, uh, and my parents were deaf. I grew up in the 50s, and, um, I’ve always called it my superpower, but you call it inside wink- – for me, um, I grew up watching my parents. There was no texting. There was no closed captioning. There was there was a very closed society to my parents who were deaf. But I saw them struggle through this whole existence and raise four kids. I saw their special life of being excluded from our hearing culture, from television. No, no closed captioning on TV in the 50s and 60s no bonanza where you could read the story. None of that until you know the recent history. So my inside wink is I have empathy for anybody who is other than I’ve always had empathy for anybody who is considered to be less than. My mother made that very clear when I was about seven years old about, uh, what it feels to be less than. So my inside wink is I have empathy and I support anybody that I can see that’s feeling less than, because of my parents and the way I was brought up. That’s my inside wink.

Liz: And mine is in sign language. You would do this— we’re in agreement- simpatico- we understand.

Alison: Oh, I love that. That’s perfect. That’s a beautiful. Those are beautiful. And they’re so you. They’re both so perfect for you guys. That’s beautiful. And could you tell me what your favorite would be? Pie. Cake or ice cream?

Paul : Pie!

Liz: Pie!

Paul : Yeah. It’s like an old fashioned, uh, Chicago thing. Pie was always blueberry pie. Strawberry pie, apple pie, strawberry rhubarb pie with a scoop of ice cream. I’ve always liked pie. A really good pie with a good crust. I had two grandmothers that were very good at it. So I have to say pie. Pumpkin pie– i could go on forever.

Alison: Yeah….Another hour passes. Thank you so much. It’s so wonderful to meet you both and just see what …. Such a beautiful, great couple. Yeah, this 35 years. It’s a real testament. Thank you.

Liz: And just keeps getting better and better.

Jean : Yeah that’s great. And I, I agree I have some friends that have married a long time and…

Alison: I Feel that way about my husband and.

Jean : The Really good years come… If you hang in there and do the forgiveness and work on yourself, uh, it pays off. And, um, Liz, I do have to say I was sharing with Allison. You were I said, I don’t really know Liz that well, but boy, was I just remember her being really hip at the church. And I loved seeing you there. And you’re you’re just as bright and beautiful as ever.

Alison: And, Paul, you really you just don’t even seem like you’re acting when you’re acting.

Paul : Well that’s good. That’s a compliment, because that’s what it’s supposed to be.

Liz: Be well.

Paul :  lovely.

Jean : Many Blessings.

Speaker3: Okay. You too.

Alison: Bye.

Jean : Bye.

Jean : Okay. I’m on Cloud nine.

Alison: Yeah. They are so… What an incredibly lovely couple. And they’re just so warm and generous.

Jean : And wise … Very, very wise. I love that they are non…

Alison:  Unbotherable.

Jean : Unbotherable.

Jean : Thank you, Paul and Liz…We’re going to stay unbothered. That was genius.

Alison: And he they they are so passionate. And boy, he he was so vulnerable. He cried a couple of times and just incredibly sweet. And she’s lovely. Like, you really see that they’re a team.

Jean : Absolutely.

Alison: You know, a real marriage, that’s a team. And, you know, really beautiful.

Jean : Yeah. Please see, Sing Sing.  And if you want more information on RTA – the website is just, RTA.com.

Jean : And learn about this amazing program that is shifting and changing lives.

Alison: Yeah. Just really it it inspired me so much.

Jean : Same.

Alison: But that was fantastic. So thank you Paul. Thank you Liz.

Jean : Right. And thank you Winkers.

Alison: Winkers.

Jean : That’s that’s going to be our new name for our listeners…winkers.

Alison:  and be unbothered.

Jean : Yes.

Alison: Bye.

 

\Jean: Okay. Are we rolling?

Alison: We are. We’re rolling. Here we are. We’re doing it. Um. We are… I don’t know when this is going to, you know, be on the air, because usually you just could be listened to anytime. But I did have to mention that we are, um, at the tail end, hopefully of the fires. And we just want to send our love and kindness to everyone involved and to thank the firefighters.

Jean: Yeah, absolutely.

Alison: True heroes.

Jean: True. talk about courageous people.

Alison: Yeah.

Jean: And, uh, going through a huge transistion.

Alison: And all the people.

Jean: that’s what I mean… All the people that just— the firefighters, the people….

Alison: The families, the the helpers, you know, it just– I went to the Red Cross the other day and they were sort of helping  and you know, it almost makes you cry when you see people really come together and people helping, like the animals… And, you know–

Jean: It really shows that we, the human heart, uh, yearns for connection and supporting each other. We really do. There’s so much goodness in the world.

Alison: And that’s a perfect transition to who we are going to talk to today.

Alison: Amy Robbins.

Jean: I love her.

Alison: We love her. And we talked to her earlier, uh, last year, and we just felt such a connection with her- that we asked her to be back to talk about spirituality in 2025. And it’s going to be a perfect discussion for right now for us, I think.

Jean: 100%. And she brings forth so much practical, everyday wisdom. I’m sure our listeners will get something really juicy  and, uh, inspiring from it.

Alison: and life affirming. Well, here she is. Amy.—HI!!

Amy : Hello…  I am so sorry.. My daughter just got into college, and so I got totally. I totally lost track of time.

Alison: No, no, no, we’re I that’s what we said. We’re both like we we… Oh, she has kids, so it could be anything.

Jean: It could Be anything.

Amy : I was literally thinking all day, I’m like 3:00, 3:00, 3:00, because I cleared out my whole the rest of my day because I didn’t know what time the the decision was coming in. And it came in at two.

Jean: Congratulations.

Alison: And congratulations.

Amy : Thank you. Thank you. So we’ve just been, like, off the wall.

Jean: Sure.

Amy : We’re not expecting that she was going to get in.

Alison: Tell us everything. Where is she going?

Amy :  Michigan.

Alison: Wow.

Amy : Yeah. And my husband and I both went there,so –  but we thought she would probably get deferred.

Amy : And so she came home from school early because she didn’t want to be at school when she got the decision. And then it came in at 2:00, and it’s been like madness.

Jean: I remember those days, Amy.  It’s so fun. And it’s high energy and congratulations.

Alison: Do you want to. You want to wait?

Amy : No. I’m ready. I have, like, more energy. I am jacked up.

Alison: Can we can we use that little part about your daughter getting into Michigan, or would you prefer not to?

Amy : Sure. Is it recording? Is it recording?

Alison:  Yeah.

Alison: Okay, good. Because that’s so exciting. And that’s such an important part of life for everybody involved in your family.

Amy : It’s a big -it’s filled with a lot of emotion, for sure. It’s like the joy because you want your child to, you know, to, um, get what they want. And then it’s like the grief that’s going to settle in over the next six months, nine months, as I get ready for her to leave.

Alison: And is this your eldest child?

Amy : This is my first. Yeah.

Alison: So what do you describe that to me? Like, what do you think about that? Because we both went we both had that experience. And and it’s interesting that you’re calling it grief.

Amy : Yeah. I’m just I’m just anticipating, like, so many things, the shift in the family dynamics, the, um,– her being on her own. She’s like my pal for everything. She’s my sidekick. And so. And now I’m left in a house with three dudes.

Alison: Yep.

Amy : And a dude dog.  So I’m just like and just anticipating so much of it. Like the joy, the sadness, the excitement, the just anxiety about. I mean, I know it’s the right place. I really believe in my heart, it’s the right place for her. So that feels really good like that. Um, just knowing her personality and how she is and like, the school, obviously, because my husband and I both went there, but I think just like wanting, like, launching your child. I looked back at her baby picture, and we, um. I’ll show it to you. Okay. Because when she was born, this was that little hat that she wore in the hospital.

Jean: Oh.

Alison: And she’s got the M.

Amy : Right. We bought, we bought, we ordered a little… We didn’t know if we were having a boy or girl. We ordered the ordered the little Michigan hat and she wore it in the hospital. So it’s just like, so it’s just it’s it’s amazing.

Alison: Well, congratulations.

Amy : Thank you.

Alison: That is so Exciting.

Jean: It really is.

Jean: It’s just a beautiful time, these new beginnings and and I think, you know, I think grief happens when, when a major change happens in our lives.

Amy : Yeah.   You know, I’m, uh. Gosh, it’s just like you you guys got me with, like, all the feelings. Like the joy. I mean, I just feel, like, completely elated right now. And then you realize…

Alison: You’re glowing.

Jean: You’re like you had a natural facial.  It’s like you don’t look beautiful, but You’re glowing.

Amy : Yeah. I mean, it’s just you you want for your kids what they want, right? And you just want, you hope that they achieve what they want to achieve. I mean, it’s not about people say, well, yeah, you and your husband went there. We did. But I wanted her to be where she wanted to be, and that’s where she wanted to be. And so, it just feels it’s just wonderful to be able to experience that. Like pure joy, like the purest form of, like, happiness and joy. It’s like, you want a bottle, I want a bottle this feeling up because, it’s I mean, the hour and a half before we got on is just like screaming. And, you know, my family calling and my her grandparents calling and, um, her friends, which is so amazing to see now like, because how connected everybody is.

Alison: Yeah.

Amy : To watch like all of her friends from all over just calling and they’re all so happy for each other. It’s a beautiful thing to see your child have friends who celebrate eachother.

Alison: YAnd you know, it’s so funny when we say grief. It’s got such a bad rap. Grief. But grief is so good on some level. Like when you’re saying like grief, it’s not really grief, it’s more just, you’re expecting a lot of emotion about this person, that the whole point is to get them to go away from you, and you just want to keep them close. Right. And it’s, you know, this real interesting dichotomy and dynamic. I remember all those emotions so vividly with my kids. Like, I remember getting in the cars after you dropped them off and just bursting into tears, but not tears of sadness, It’s really, you know…

Jean: Almmost Like an accomplishment.

Amy : Mhm.

Jean: And it’s also, I think grief is, is like, you’re in a phase of, of deeper transitioning.

Alison: Yeah. That’s a great way of putting it.

Amy : Yeah. And love.

Alison: Yeah.

Amy : So much love. So much love that often walks, you know, hand in hand with grief as it’s –I think I think to think about grief, as always, something that’s bad to feel is a problem in our world. Like, it’s it’s not it’s it’s an important part of every transition in our lives, is that there is usually grief associated with it.

Alison: I totally agree. Yeah.

Jean: I don’t think you can get through the human experience without some experiencing some level of grief.

Amy : Mhm.

Jean: Otherwise you’re really you’re missing out, you know, there’s a depth to it that shows, as you just said, Amy, the love that’s there.

Amy : Um, well, and it’s also amazing just to think about, right, like in one moment– and I think this happens so often in our lives. Right? One moment that you could either feel fear, feel like such pure joy or such depth of, like sadness, like in in a moment that she opened the email, it was complete joy. But the other could have also been true like that, that she could have not gotten in. And then it would have been like sitting in that sadness of what was lost, right? Like all the loss of what she had envisioned, maybe her life would have been like, or where she had thought she was going to end up that she didn’t like. It’s just so much in these one tiny moments.

Alison: Yeah. It’s a lot like when you’re, uh, trying to get pregnant and you take that test.

Amy : Oh, yes.

Alison: You know, you’re looking at that stick like, uh, you know what I mean?

Amy : Right, right. It’s like you’re, like, trying to project onto.

Alison:  And then there are people that look at that stick that don’t want it. So, you know, there are these things that, you know, anything, you know, and, you know, we’re just, you know, this is this, this this, um, podcast won’t air right now, but we’re just going through and witnessing these fires.

Amy : Yes, I know, and how how are you both doing?

Alison: Okay.

Jean: We’re good. We’re not in the direct path, but  we’re sort of in the middle of.

Alison: Yeah, we’re in the middle.

Jean: And and, um, you know, we’re miles away from it, but you can definitely smell it in the air. And there is this sense of like, um… Unsettledness.

Alison: Yeah.

Amy : And how could there not be?

Alison: Yeah. And just the fact that, you know, you hear these people and what becomes important. Like there was one moment where, um, there was a fire started right near me. Like, literally, I could see it. So we were all out on the street looking, and, uh, we were on the– get set, get set, like, to evacuate. And so you’re walking around your house, and in the same moment, everything becomes meaningful, all these objects. And at the same time, meaningless.

Amy : Mhm.

Alison: you’re like, okay, I need this, I need this. Wait, why am I taking this? Okay, I need that. I don’t need that. And then it’s like it was right. It was the sense of what, what is important. What is meaningful to me. It’s very….

Amy : it’s surreal. It’s surreal to have those those experiences in life where it’s like these decision points. I mean, I said to my husband and my kids too, I said, what would you guys take? Like, what would it what would be the things you would take with you? And it’s so interesting because everybody’s first response, mine included, this is a this is a very, um, intimate disclosure. Here was my blankie and their blankies. Oh, I still I still sleep with a transitional object.

Alison: I, I love that.

Jean: That’s so sweet.

Amy : But but they were like, we would take our blankies. Yeah. And I thought that’s like, their most, like, comforting possession.

Jean: I did think about that because I, I was on like the third evacuation actually, Allison told me, Jean, you might have to evacuate. And I was…

Alison: For a different fire. For a different fire? Yeah.

Jean: And, um. I can feel it in my throat. In the air here. So I right away took the passports, social security, things like that. And then to Allison’s point, I was looking around and going, God, what do I take? And and I left with very few items, some pictures. I took, some pictures. I took no jewelry.

Alison: Yeah.

Jean: Yeah,  I just took sort of sentimental things, a few and that was it. And then, you know, it’s a great point to recognize, you know, what’s really important to you.

Amy : Mhm.

Jean: You know so, and not that that jewelry isn’t I love some of the pieces that my Alex had Alex had given me over the years, you know -but it wasn’t like, you know, I didn’t run for that. Right. I ran for a few of the photos. And then, you know, because everything is so digital now.

Amy : Right. Which is crazy, right? Like, now everything is just stored on, like, this little device that’s stored up there.

Jean: So it’s so it’s like, grab your phone, grab a few older photos of, you know, wedding photos. And then, um, I took my, you know, just passport and stuff like that.

Alison: And the amount of prayers, you know, to just, you know, you were you were talking the last time we talked about spirituality and we wanted to talk to you about that because you had said that that was really something. I also have to tell you something. Uh, we have, um, friends that listen to our podcast. Um, one of my friends was so taken with you. They’re like.. “Hi Vinnie”  They’re like fans of you. They want to know all about you. They’re listening to you. They had so many feelings about all your interviews. And, like, I just wanted to tell you that whenever I came across was so powerful that this this high school friend called me up like, oh, my God. Amy Robbins, huh? You got to just you got.

Amy : When I come hang out with you ladies, you’ll invite your friend.

Alison: Okay. Yeah, right. He was like, you got to get her back. I’m like, we are Friday.

Amy : Oh, I love that. Thank you. So that was. That means a lot. Thank you.

Alison: So tell me, like, what are your thoughts surrounding this year, which there is so much going on right now and how does spirituality play into it for you.

Amy : So I’m not like an astrologer or I follow that lightly because honestly, like for whatever reason, it doesn’t seem to sink in really with me, But for a long time, I think what they’ve been saying is that it was really like until and maybe through 2025, things are still going to be a little chaotic and then things are going to start to settle down, which it feels like we need.  And I have found and continue to find I have some crazy side stories, even just for what we were just talking about earlier with my daughter, that even I, I was too scared to even think that they could actually really be signs to believe it. And I feel like I heard my guides talking to me, being like, what is it going to take to get you to trust that these are real? But I find that, like really leaning into that has been helpful for me. Not just signs, not magical thinking, but leaning into trusting. And in a time where it’s I mean, look, it’s really hard to say to anybody… Oh, just trust that this is for the highest and best good like that to me, feels like spiritual bypassing, we’re in there is a lot of traumatic things happening in this world right now.

Amy : And I see spirituality is a way of helping ease some of the suffering around that. I mean, Jean, last time we talked so much about A Course in Miracles and how that has been so healing and I just and that’s a spiritual text, right? It’s not, it’s it’s a very spiritual text. And I think those connections to something bigger than us can bring us tremendous comfort in these times. And we know, based on a lot of the research from Lisa Miller out of her lab at Columbia, that spirituality is really a protective factor against many mental health issues as well. So when we have this belief system, it doesn’t insulate you from it, but it pads you a little against it, against feeling so overwhelmed by the state of everything. And I think it feels to me like so many people are just their nerves are just like raw and exposed. First of all, I think when you have a belief that there’s something bigger than just you, then you can connect to the humanity in other people… Like that you can, i mean, let’s take the fires, right? Like for those of us who, me being someone who wasn’t there but feeling like a deep connection to people that I knew that were there, even people I didn’t know.

Amy : I just had a woman on the podcast last week who was a friend of a friend that I met through the podcast, and she lost everything. She’s a psychologist and I’ve been able to… I had her tell her story on the podcast, um, I’ve helped share GoFundMe stuff for her, a wish list for her. And that to me feels so meaningful, to be able to help someone else. And I think that when we can see ourselves in someone else, and when we can have that connection to another human being, it’s it’s transformative. It’s what makes us human. It’s what makes us feel alive. And more, I think, more than anything else, is being able to just give back in that way, to be there for another person. I’m so lucky. I have a career where I constantly am able to see have that connection and that meaning making and people’s lives, and it’s so incredibly rewarding. I don’t know if I answered your question. I’m like still, like, floating up here. So I’m just allowing whatever’s coming through to come through.

Jean: No, your points were well spoken and to the point. And I do think spirituality is where people go when they are suffering in life. It’s usually the path… I know it was for me. You know, it’s something people look to because the outer world is not is no longer satisfying. It’s, they’ve been betrayed. There’s been something big and so, you know, and there’s so many different types and the whole smorgasbord of spiritual paths, you know, and you find your one, the one that speaks to you… It rings true…. And and you work with it. And you, um, like you said, Amy, I think you come to realize that your life ultimately in the beginning is about you, but then it’s about the other people that were engaged with. So but you got to get yourself together and get your thinking and get, you know, get your priorities right. And, um, there’s this beautiful quote that says, “you first have to become selfish, to become selfless.” … If you put the if you do it the other way around, it, it it can kind of backfire. So, um, you know, I think we are all in the whole, well, the United States, let’s just say, you know, we are we are missing that element, that we are spiritual beings. We’re, we’re we’re in such a a mindset of materialistic, you know, get it from the outside, then I’ll be fulfilled within. And spirituality turns that around.

Amy : Mhm. Yeah.

Jean: It’s not you know it’s a day to day choice.

Amy : Yes. Yeah. And I think it’s such a shame. And part of I feel like my quest is that it doesn’t, you don’t have to get you don’t need to be brought to your knees in order to find spirituality. Mhm. Don’t wait for that.  Start before you get to that point. Because there’s so much more excitement and joy in life when you can play… I’ll give you the examples from this week with my daughter that I didn’t want to trust.

Amy : So I’m a huge signs person. I am always speaking to the universe in signs like that’s how I communicate. And I always ask in my meditations when I’m connecting with my guides, I always ask for really concrete signs. So obviously my daughter got into school today. I’m very excited about this, and I and I think I feel like my guides are kind of always teasing me. Like, how obvious do you want us to make this for you?  Like, do we need to, like, beat you over the head with it? I’m like, yes, you do. So and it was funny because last night I was talking to a girlfriend about something, and I was saying my sister was saying she had this sign and that sign. And I said to my girlfriend, those are not signs. And she goes, when the sign lady is telling you they’re not signs, they’re not signs like that. I’m saying, like, those are not signs. Those are just other things. So I go, I’m like, in my bath last night, it’s my favorite place to just, like, decompress, and I am looking through emails and this I have an online course and this woman from my course reaches out to me and I haven’t, I haven’t been,  the course is on hiatus right now and I’m getting ready to start a new cohort.

Amy : And so we’re sort of like in this in-between, and I hadn’t heard from her, and she reached out to say, you know, something that she was struggling with with the course, and then, um, she’s headed to Ann Arbor this weekend for, for this festival. She thinks I’m familiar with the Hill auditorium and, like, kind of like a wink. And I’m thinking, okay, I don’t want to get overexcited here, but but if this comes to fruition, don’t tell me that the universe doesn’t try to communicate with us in all kinds of ways. And then my pictures on my phone today for the memories of today popped up. It was a picture of my daughter from eighth grade with her friend, and she’s fully decked in Michigan gear like head to toe hat, jersey, everything. And I’m like, okay, I might be listening. I’m not sure I’m listening yet. I’ll know for sure once it happens, right? And it’s just like, it’s those those experiences that to me, make life so playful and awe inspiring. I mean, there’s so much awe in that. It’s like, how did it happen? And it doesn’t make… And my husband, I told him last night because I didn’t tell any, I really told only my friend who I said who said this isn’t a sign, i was like, I think this might actually be a sign. So I sent her that screenshot, but I didn’t say anything because I was too nervous to jinx anything. And I sent it to my I told my husband about it and he’s like, that’s nonsense. Like, I don’t buy into that. I haven’t asked him yet if he buys into it now.

Jean: Do you ask for signs all the time, Amy?

Amy : All the time? All the time.

Jean: I think if you’re if you’re someone that does not. I think it’s a cute, like, a entertaining type thing. I mean, I asked for a sign once, and, um and I totally got it. And I wasn’t into signs asking, you know, show me a sign. Show me a sign. And when I got it, it’s like, wow, you’re so right. There is something else going on, and it’s mind blowing. It’s like, kind of bow to it. Yes, I’m I hear you.

Amy : You’re like, I surrender, I surrender to what is. It’s the most amazing fun if you want to try to create like just those little bits of joy that we were talking about earlier, like to bottle them up. Having a conversation with whatever it is the universe, a loved one, spirit guide, higher Self, and playing with the universe in that way. It’s so. It’s a mind blowing experience. I was going to say something else, but I don’t know. It’s a it’s such a mind blowing experience. Like even as we’re talking, I’m thinking about how a couple weeks ago, my daughter was like freaking out because she was so anxious about this and I had just gotten in the car and I was talking to my mom and I was thinking, God help me. Like, I, how am I going to survive this next two weeks, two months, six months? I didn’t know how long it was going to be until we knew and you know, and the ups and downs and, you know, bracing myself for the for the emotion. And I look up and the license plate in front of me also was, like it said, like Michigan Wolverines. And and I was like, hmm, is it possible? Is it right? Right. That’s not good enough. Come on. Show me more. Um. And and I wish I knew how to explain it all. I think there are people who are better at explaining it all, but I think that there’s still this this, um, experience of, there are things that we just don’t know.  And that is magical in itself. I love talking about this. I get so excited.

Jean: Yeah. No, because it is exciting. Because it’s beyond our to do, you know? It really is… You know, I can only imagine… Well, it was like this movie, um, with Amy Adams  and she’s talking, she’s communicating with the extraterrestrial.

Alison: Oh, CONTACT.

Jean: Contact.

Amy : Oh. With Jodie Foster. Wait, was Amy Adams?

Alison: No. Not contact. Um, there was those big silver beans. Those big silver beans. They were so great.

Amy : Wait, it was Contact but I think it was Jodie Foster. No, unless it’s a different movie.

Alison: I’m gonna Look it up.

Jean: It, um. She’s a pretty. Very pretty Irish actress.

Alison: Um, but go on with your story.

Jean: So. Yeah. And so she’s now communicating with these, and she’s like, oh, my God… Like there’s intelligence- like, actually, it makes you go, wow- uh, there’s this power that I can actually use.

Alison: Arrival.

Amy : Oh, I never saw that.

Alison: It’s good. It’s really good.

Amy : Okay. Maybe tonight, I don’t know, I feel like I’m like, going to wander in circles or something tonight. I don’t know what to do with my….

Alison: So when you guys are talking about signs, when you say ask for signs. Like what? What happens if you ask for a sign and don’t? Do you ever not get it? Or do you get a sign explaining another path? Or like, do you understand my question?

Amy : Yeah. So what I usually do is and how I like when I’m in a meditation is typically when I will say like, can you? Well, now it’s actually I feel like I’m constantly in conversation in that way. But, um, sometimes I’m very specific, like in this situation, I was just I didn’t even ask for anything with my daughter, i just was sort of I was praying, frankly and trying to manifest. And I don’t think that’s, you know, on its own, i don’t think I could have manifested this had she not, um, been qualified for it. Right. But also I every day was like, I pray for what is for her highest and best good. Like, I don’t know that it’s that. But I trust that whatever is for her highest and best good will unfold in time. And then I’ll say something like, and please validate this for me in concrete ways. So, I mean, I think that there are, because again, I’m so concrete, I need something concrete. And I do think the more you cultivate the relationship, the stronger it gets, the more I think signs show up. So now, I feel like I’m getting signs all the time and like they feel like little winks and I’m just like, okay, got you. Like I’m on the right path. I’m headed in the right direction. Um, I don’t like, freak out if I don’t see things. And I think I’m sure that there are people who might be watching and saying, like, you’re just loony, and this is just like you’re creating things, and that’s why when I was talking to my friend and she was like, the signs lady thinks it’s not a sign.

Amy : I’m also very clear. Like I pay attention to that feeling inside of me. Yeah, that’s like just in that split second. You’re like, hmm. It’s that intuitive knowing that makes you feel like, okay, there’s something more to this, and it goes away very quickly. And that’s why I think a meditation practice or any sort of practice where you are more conscious, you don’t miss the signs. Like the license plate in front of me, I could have very easily not seen that. As soon as I looked up and it was in front of me, the car turned and was gone.  And so when we’re not, um, when we’re not really present and in tune with life, we can miss kind of the breadcrumbs. I call them the lily pads that, like, pop up for you, that show you. Yes, this is the right thing. And no, it’s not. I also think when it’s your Her own stuff often. Like if someone says, show me a sign that this guy is right for me, you’re going to maybe look for the things that show you that he’s right for you. It’s hard to get out of your head in that way. And that’s, again, not to keep bringing this back to meditation, but I feel like that is where a meditation practices can be so helpful is because you can detach a little bit from what you want the outcome to be and allow things to unfold, or be honest with yourself about what is and isn’t possible. And it’s still hard. I mean, even me with all these signs that I just shared was like, I don’t think this is going to happen.

Alison: Um, and that could have been protection, mental protection for you just in case.

Amy : Right. Right. Because I also feel like I live in a human… I mean, I feel like I live in a human world where Ah, I can’t just be like, oh, everything’s a sign. And this means that, and like, throw out my human experience with with the bathwater. But I also feel like these continue to be lessons even for me to trust, trust, trust, trust, trust. And that’s really hard.

Jean: Trusting yourselves. We so were were not raised that way. Trusting yourself. Trust your intuition.  And you know the clarity that brings is really is a priceless gift.

Jean: I was talking to a friend about clarity the other day. And you know I think when you’re someone like myself who is sensitive to other people, it’s sometimes hard to hone in on my own inner clarity. And back to your point, uh, it it is, you know, calming the mind down and going, no, this is true for me.

Amy : Mhm.

Jean: You know, and because the world is so full of different, different polls, different tidbits, different maybe it’s this, maybe it’s that, maybe it’s what Amy said, maybe it’s what your mother said, maybe it’s what you know, and and you’re just like, oh my God, stop the noise. And and what’s true for me?

Amy : Yeah. Right.

Amy : And we don’t tune in to that. So often we do not tune in to.

Jean: And I do think it’s important if you’re someone that is… I mean, we’re all sensitive, but if you’re more empathetic and empathic.

Jean: Mhm.

Jean: Good to have that kind of grounding. Grounding into the earth.

Alison: Right.

Jean: Grounding into your own core.

Alison: And I think what you said about outcomes is so important. Like don’t like, Because you’re right. If I want to look out and see, you know, ugliness, hate, fear, I’m going to see it. If I want to look at and see love and I’m going to see it. So I think it’s very interesting what you said, do not like once you remove yourself from the outcome, what is for the ultimate best and highest good that I may not even be aware of?  Do you know there were times with with with my son, that he wanted to school, he didn’t he didn’t get into a school and it was disappointing. And now when I look back, I think, thank God.   for various things that happened. I was like, oh my gosh.

Jean: You know, today’s lesson in A Course in Miracles is, “I don’t perceive my own best interests.”

Amy : Mhm.

Jean: Meaning like we think oh I want this to happen then I want that and then I want that… But we don’t, we’re… That’s such a limited… The universe has something much more grand.

Amy : And and it’s so hard. I think it’s so hard as a human to to trust that.

Jean: I think it would be nice to talk something that Alison and I talk about a lot lately is and I know it’s it’s it’s a buzzword now. It’s authenticity. Um, you know, and, and, um, especially in our age group, you know, you look at your identity as how you were in the past and you go, you know what? I, I did a lot of people pleasing or I did a lot of, you know, keeping the peace, which is, which has its own merit, which is fine, and then and, then you kind of look at your life and you go, where am I not congruent  with how I feel about something and saying yes to something versus hurting someone’s feelings. And, um, and I do think that’s part of the spiritual path.

Amy : Totally.

Jean: Is being congruent with your thought words and deeds. Easy, not really, but doable. It is doable. Um, so what are your thoughts about that?

Amy : Yeah, I think so. When you were talking, what came into my mind was this notion of, like, how you show up. Um, and I always thought about this very early in my clinical practice, actually, because there’s ,in therapy, they say you’re I mean, you’re the ethics are like, you have these very firm boundaries and that the client doesn’t really you know, you’re a blank slate. I mean, this is the therapy that I practice more traditional. You’re a blank slate, and the patient projects onto you who they think you are –  but there was something about that that didn’t feel authentic to me. It didn’t feel like a relationship. Right? And one of the things that always felt. So important was that my patients, if they saw me outside of therapy, they would never think this woman is not who she claims to be. Like she’s, you know, look like in the office she’s one way, but in life, she’s totally different. That feels not in alignment. Right. And I think of that often as as like a way of really framing, and it’s hard for people, it’s so difficult for people who have- i mean, we don’t know people’s early childhood experiences who they felt like they needed to, be throughout their lives to be loved, to be cared for, and so they became chameleons to other people. They I always referenced that in the movie Runaway Bride, remember, with Richard Gere and Julia Roberts, where he asks her what eggs she likes and she doesn’t know because she’s only always like the eggs that the person she was with liked. Yeah. And I think so often we have morphed ourselves for all kinds of reasons, usually based on early childhood, to protect ourselves from different threats, and that as we become middle aged adults, what are we still protecting ourselves from? And how do we step more into saying yes to ourselves and no to everything that doesn’t feel good? And recognizing that just because you set a boundary doesn’t mean that boundary….

Amy : I hear this all the time. It doesn’t– i’m not finishing sentences here— it doesn’t mean that boundary needs to be harsh, or I hear so much from women… I don’t like conflict and then I explore with them, what in your mind, what does conflict look like? Because people often have such a negative view of what conflict is, that it has to be confrontational, that it has to be like harsh and aggressive.  And I’m like, can you have conflict in a loving way? Can you have communication that you are expressing what you truly need in a way that doesn’t feel conflictual, that doesn’t feel hurtful, or it doesn’t mean the other person might not be hurt by what you say, but if you are saying it in a way that’s loving and that’s compassionate, you can’t control whether or not they’re hurt by that. That might be all their stuff that’s getting stirred up. And it’s so hard for people to stay in their authenticity because they they’re so worried about conflict, how the other person is going to feel, what they’re going to think, how they’re going to respond to them. And it’s not about that. I mean, that’s part of it. And there are relationships that need to be handled carefully. But also, what kind of a relationship are you in, including the relationship with yourself? If you can’t be true to who you are.

Jean: Right.

Alison: That’s beautiful. I hadn’t, I hadn’t really I hadn’t really thought about that. Like in the world, if someone sees you, they wanted to make sense. They don’t want you out in the world, like for a therapist or a doctor or, you know, they don’t want you out in the world, like, you know, rolling around on a hill, you know, you know, with, you know, cards in your hand. I mean, like, they wanted to make sense, right? And yet sometimes we don’t take the time to make how I am out in the world with myself make sense? Do you know, I never really I never really thought of it like that. That’s really great. You know, the the thing about being kind and being authentic are sometimes feel very disparate and there…. But you’re saying they don’t have to be.

Amy : Well, I think when you say like, be kind, I, I would I’m curious like what that means, right? Because I think that people have all different kinds of interpretations of this. The word like be kind or be nice. That doesn’t mean you don’t set a boundary or you don’t say no sometimes– I don’t think my kids would think I’m unkind, but they certainly hear no often. Right. Because it’s a boundary. And a boundary can be set very lovingly. Right?

Jean: I love, I love that the two can coexist. You know, if if you see your child doing something hurtful, you say, Come inside, come inside. You know, And it’s a loving thing to do. You see a child with matches and and yet it’s so interesting as you get older, again, to your point, Amy. Like, what are we protecting within ourselves where we feel we have to give away our authenticity?

Alison: But like right now, we’re living in a time, right? You guys, that is like, um, people feel this need to have, I think, very strong stance on what they think is “right”. I’m using air quotes.  They feel that they really need to say no, no, no, no-    so are you saying that then you do you can have those you can have that belief in what you think is right, but it really is just how you say it? Is that is that really what you’re saying?

Amy : Yeah, I think that’s part of it. But also how you’re listening to the other person, like, you know, I can I can look at a lot of what’s happening and say, I could see that side and I could see that side and I could see that side. Like, can you perspective take to be able to see other people’s sides? And it doesn’t mean that you have to cave on yours or believe that your side is wrong and the other side is right. But can you say, and this is where I think we’ve lost like all sense of humanness, we used to be able to say, oh, I could kind of see that…. I can see that perspective. I can understand where you might be coming from in that, I don’t agree with it, but I can understand where you’re coming from. Now we’ve just like, I don’t agree with what you’re saying, so it must be you, you’re the problem. And, and and I think you can you should still be very authentic with what you believe and how you believe it, but also willing and open to Open to listen to someone else’s perspective, to hear how they believe it. What do they think? And when we get so, I mean the fear–  I remember this during 2020 ,and I took a sabbatical this summer because I felt like I knew what was coming. And the fear that took hold in 2020. And again, I understand why it did. There were a lot of reasons for people to be scared.

Amy : But then it became like a soup that people just stirred and stirred and stirred and stirred in. And again, I’m very lucky. I don’t have to worry that I’m going to be deported. And so I recognize like, I don’t there’s I have I’m coming from a place of privilege in many ways. And I see so many people getting pulled into fear. And it’s like, if you do come from a place of privilege, then what are What are things you can do to help stabilize things so you don’t get pulled into that fear with everybody else because you’re no good, i’m no good in helping, if I’m pulled right into the fear of everything, because then I’m just swimming in this fear soup, right? And, you know, in 2020, as my role as a therapist, I couldn’t be in that fear because I couldn’t join– i can be empathic, but joining someone in their soup of whatever it could be fear, it could be anxiety, it could be anger, it’s not productive. And so it’s not staying, i do believe that our authentic selves are here– this is I don’t study A Course in Miracles, but A Course in Miracles is all about love and forgiveness, right? Like that, that we are all here to love one another. And we get so I mean, in, in a tweet or whatever they’re called now in an X thing, people just boom, they’re like sucked right in. Like it’s like, it’s like a vortex.

Alison: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And how does spirituality keep you from that? Do you have any, any ideas on that? Like how does how does that help you?

Amy : Well I think it helps in a lot of ways because I can recognize like that a lot of what…. Well, I think spirituality and psychology, a lot of what’s happening, I feel like, is just people’s projections in many ways. Um, and so people like you, I can step back and watch and say, oh, well, that’s curious. Like what’s getting projected here and what’s getting projected here. And you know, what’s getting projected onto this person from that person and just kind of stepping back and watching. But I also think, one- I focus on the things that matter and that I can control and the difference I can make in this world. And it can it is it a sometimes a very like tiny  micro, very micro level of just feeling connection to other people and doing one small thing that could make a ripple that ripples out, and it might just be like buying someone a cup of coffee, or smiling at someone in the grocery store and saying hello, or calling a friend and checking in on them just to say hi, how are you? I’ve missed talking to you– like all of those things are spiritual.

Jean: Yeah, right.

Amy : It doesn’t have to be this grand. Like I’m sitting in prayer and meditation for hours a day. Connection with another human being is probably the most powerful spiritual experience you can have. I mean, the three of us love talking.

Jean: That’s so well said.

Alison: Yeah,

Jean: my husband used to say, oh, Jeannie, I’m not spiritual. I’m not. That’s you. And I’d say, Alex, you are so spiritual. You’re always connecting, bringing people together. You know, it just looks cloaked. It’s it’s like because I go to a spiritual center, so it just looks obvious because the of the word… But what your platform is– it’s exactly what you said when we’re unified and we can have different feelings, preferences, and yet we don’t separate ourselves from someone. Um, I love that you said that… Here’s a saying that I heard on a podcast, when you’re feeling, um, your your thoughts are different than someone else’s, you can just say, oh, “I think differently about that.”

Jean: I think differently about.  You know, and stay curious.

Amy : Right. And then a great thing for someone to say back is,  tell me more about how you think about it?

Alison: Yeah. Right.

Amy : Yeah. I mean, I started following watching the other side. I’m not even, i don’t even know what the other side is anymore because every side feels like another side. But but just because I was, like, curious, like, what are what are both sides saying? Like, I can’t live in the echo chamber of what I think is right because, i don’t I want to hear, I want to understand, and there’s nothing, again, more spiritual than sitting down and maybe understanding where someone else is coming from. You don’t know their story, right? And so to hear someone’s story, to witness someone’s story, to listen to them again, one of the most spiritual things you can do is be in connection with another person. Talk about something that fills your heart up. I mean, what fills your heart up more than that? I’m thinking about this retreat I hosted in November and it was like the most, it was exhausting because I don’t hold space for that many people at once. But it and it was a totally different experience for me. I’m not, i mean, I hold space for 20 people a week, but it’s one on one.  And to hold it in like a big space was a completely different experience. But oh my gosh, did my heart feel full? Like never felt fuller. And that is such a spiritual experience. Like all of these little moments, the moment that you we had I had before I got on with you today, like that was the most spiritual experience. It was pure, elated joy. Like I said when we started, I want to bottle it up because we have those moments in life and they’re so fleeting. And when we’re not conscious and we’re not connected, it’s like it didn’t even happen. Even when we are. It’s like it didn’t even happen. But when we’re not, we can’t experience like, my sister is so upset with us that we didn’t videotape it. She’s like videotape. I’m really dating myself here that we didn’t record exactly. We didn’t take out our camcorder, um, that we didn’t record the opening of this thing, but it was like we were, so in the moment of it all, it was just Joy!

Alison:  It’s amazing.

Jean: Well, Amy, we’ve come full circle and, uh, ending with the joy of your beautiful family, having this joyful experience, being in the moment. Um, I can’t thank you enough for your time, your wisdom, um, your grace, that you, you so generously give to us and to all your viewers.

Alison: Yeah. Thank you. We really love.  You so much.

Amy : I love you guys, too. I’ll do this any time. I love talking to you. And I feel like every time.

Alison: Wow. We caught her on a big day, huh?

Jean: We did. I remember those those days for Matthew and Emily. Finding out where they were going to go to college. And… Yeah, but this had a real significance for her and her husband…

Alison: Right – Because no one went back to my alma mater or anything of my kids.

Jean: Same. Same with me.

Alison: But it was, um, just seeing that joy, and we were just saying, you know, our energy was different being here. And yet, you know, we were able to really connect. I thought, she’s just wonderful.

Jean: She is she is doing such good work in the world. And she’s the perfect bridge for the human mind, the human experience and bringing in spirituality. I, I just am so grateful that we found her. And and she’s she’s our friend. Yeah.

Alison: And listen to her podcast. She’s fantastic.

Jean: Oh my God. She has interviewed so many amazing people. So, um, however you get to listen to Amy just do it. It’s she’s she’s such a gift.

Alison: And again, um, love and and…

Jean: Love and prayers… Knowing that everyone is surrounded by love. Yes. Even when it doesn’t look that way.

Alison: That’s right. And that’s it. Thanks.

Alison : What are you whispering? What are you saying? We have a treat.

Jean : We do. We have a treat because we are going to showcase an interview that we actually were the interviewee, right? We were not the interviewers.

Alison : With, um, Ingrid and Kathleen.

Jean : Right, And they have a gorgeous podcast called , “This Is My Silver Lining.” And I love the title.

Alison : Me too.

Alison : And this was aired on their podcast, but they’ve given us permission to air it on ours, just so that, I don’t know, maybe you can get to know us a little bit better. And they were just lovely too. And they’re, they’re doing they’re exactly in our wheelhouse of doing exactly what we’re doing.

Alison : And so…

Jean : Sharing, sharing inspiring stories.

Alison : Right. So you we hope you enjoy us. Yeah.

Jean : And if you don’t, just push delete.

Alison : Yeah. Or listen to them then. Thank you. Bye.

Ingrid: I’m Ingrid Hall.

Kathleen : And I’m Kathleen Merrigan.

Ingrid: Welcome to, This is My silver Lining, the show where we pull together the strongest threads of our humanity courage, kindness, compassion, and gratitude.

Kathleen : Our guests explore their toughest moments and how rising to the challenges led them to discover unexpected opportunities, connection, and community.

Ingrid: My daughter started a new school a few weeks ago, her third in four years. She’s a confident, brave eight year old, but naturally she was nervous about making new friends as I dropped her off on her first day, holding back my own tears, I looked at her new classmates and wondered who among them will become her friend and imagine the joy, laughter and beauty they will bring into one another’s lives. The French American writer Anais Nin once wrote, each friend represents a world in us. A world not born until they arrive. And it is only by this meeting that a new world is born. Today on this is my silver lining. We are delighted to speak with Jean Trebek and Alison Martin, to explore friendship and how the combination of two friends energy ripples out into the world to serve the greater good. Alison is a prolific actor and writer. She won an Emmy Award for the children’s TV series, A Likely Story. She has had numerous guest star and recurring roles in comedies such as Grace and Frankie, The Big Bang Theory, All Rise, and Mad Men.

Ingrid: And she’s also been featured in dozens of TV ads. Jean is a Religious Science practitioner, Reiki master, and sound healer. For the past 15 years, she has taught the principles of Religious Science and the application of various spiritual techniques such as meditation, sound healing, and affirmative prayer. Jean is the widow of Alex Trebek, the globally revered, long time game show host of, Jeopardy! Jean is committed to numerous philanthropic causes, including education and crisis intervention. After Alex’s death from stage four pancreatic cancer, Jean established the Alex Trebek Fund to accelerate critical pancreatic cancer research. The deep friendship Jean and Alison share has carried them through many of life’s deepest sorrows and the highest peaks of joy. It also led them to pursue their creative passions together through Insidewink, a website and now podcast for sharing what is good in the world. Jean and Alison have interviewed some of the most fascinating thinkers and practitioners in the fields of spirituality, healing, empathy, and the neuroscience of happiness. It’s a really terrific show. Jean and Alison, thank you so much for joining us on, This is My Silver Lining.

Alison : Wow. We sound so nice and good, Ingrid.

Ingrid: We are very important.

Alison : Right, Very fancy.

Ingrid: Well, thank you both so much for joining us. That was…. I don’t think Ingrid even, you know, scratches the tip of the iceberg with that, with that introduction and all that you have done.

Alison : You got the whole iceberg in there, Ingrid.

Ingrid: Listening to Jean, I’m like, she sounds great.

Kathleen : But she is great.

Jean : And vice versa. And and you know, what you wrote about our friendship is so true. It’s yeah, it’s, um, I do think that’s like, what a marriage is about, you know, coming together and being an even greater force for good in the world.

Alison : Yeah. Well, that was definitely you and Alex.

Jean : And you and Dan, right? But yeah.  And like what you two do, you know Ingrid and Kathleen.

Ingrid: We wouldn’t be here without this amazing friendship that we have. Kathleen and I, 100%.

Kathleen : Absolutely. I think one thing I’ve noticed, too, there are so many parallels between how we both came to this podcasting world and our, um, motivation to kind of shine a light on the best of the human experience and celebrate the good in the world. So I’m wondering if you two dear friends could tell us how you each have or how you each what you think about when you hear the saying that every cloud has a silver lining, and maybe how those have appeared in each of your lives?

Jean : Wow. The big one for me was going through Alex’s chemo treatment. Knowing Alison was there was wonderful, but also the way she navigated my relationship to Alex… She didn’t overstep into it, and yet she knew when to hold back a little bit. She knew when I really needed more support and I and I couldn’t ask for it, but she intuitively sensed that… So I think the knowingness of someone, the intimacy grows in a friendship when you’re in a crisis situation. So I am forever grateful to this woman. And not only that, but the great joy we have together. So it is, it is going into dark nights of the soul and huge joy. And yeah, I mean, I think Silver Lining is such a great perception because if you can always ,if you can take time to find the silver lining, that’s really a high level way of being in the world.

Alison : And I think when someone invites you in to be present during a crisis, I actually think it’s an honor, because so many of us are not invited in, and I think we’re trained to have this front and everything’s fine and don’t ask for help. And so when someone invites you in, or you happen to be standing in a place where you are in… To have that is truly like a gift. So I think that’s sort of the silver lining. You know, it’s so funny because there were so many times these past few years that Jea, helped me with stuff that was going on in my family, and we were just saying, I think the thing that the most important thing when someone is in a cloudy situation or in a dire situation is just the act of actively listening without judgment. I think so many people want to give you a million things to do or tell you, you don’t need to feel that way or tell you it’s all fine. And the great thing about Jean and a few of our friends, right, are they just will be present and listen and hold you in, in a moment of love. And I think that’s the silver lining, that even through it all, like tough stuff, like you have this presence of love and that’s sort of the silver lining. I mean, that’s the whole thing about life, right? That we’re going to go through… Crap happens.

Ingrid: a lot of it. Right. And and who do we find in those moments? Who, who, who does the Universe send to us to help us through those moments that otherwise might never– either they’re in our lives and we discover something about them through that moment, or new people come in, which often happens.

Alison : Yes.

Kathleen : Sometimes I think, you know people, I should say, sometimes I think I don’t really know the best thing to do in that situation, or I worry I’m not doing enough or I’m not doing the right thing. But it’s such a good reminder that just being there is really so important, because it certainly is for me in those situations. But for some reason, when I’m on the other side and  I want to be helping… I always feel like, oh, I want to be doing more. And then, you know, but just just being there, just just show up. As one of my friends always says, just show up. It’s so important to remember.

Ingrid: I guess I want to probe a little bit with you, Alison, this notion of like, optimism and positivity in the world and finding silver linings. I read one of your posts on the Insidewink website, where you tell a story about how your then 24 year old daughter moved home during the pandemic, which of course is a shared experience for for so many parents. And you were walking by and you just you asked her to be more grateful. I’m not sure if I’m going to get all the details right, but she kind of challenged you on that and was like, I am grateful just because I’m not like, super positive about this shitty pandemic. Like I am grateful.

Alison : Well, the pandemic, a lot happened in my family for us during the pandemic. Em who is the person you’re talking about came out during the pandemic, is non-binary, and we’re all living together in this very small house. And that was a huge learning for me.   My child, Em,  does not want to be told to have an emotional response, which is what I think I was told. Well, be happy, don’t worry. Em doesn’t want that. EM wants me to allow their emotions fully and presently, and allow my curiosity to really guide the conversation, as opposed to me fixing or being wise. And as EM has come out to us, which was a big change for my family, i realized I had a woman that, um, worked with parents whose children were just coming out, and this woman said to me, her name is Veronica.. she’s on the East Coast. Fantastic. She said, you’re letting your steaming lack of understanding get in the way of your love. And I thought, wow. I was like, well, what is non-binary? I don’t even understand that. What is that? And I realized I just love Em. I just love that person. And I love who they are and their authentic self. And I now am very careful to say, would you like me to offer something? Would you like me to offer a solution? And sometimes Em will say, no, …just  hear me, and it’s taught me a lot how to be more present in the in the world. I think it’s a very interesting thing because my parents used to fix your parents try to fix or or like squelch down or say, get over that. Do you know what I mean? Right.

Kathleen : Right. You’re fine. You’re fine.

Jean : I think the whole part of feelings and my children are a little older than Alison’s..They’re 34 and 31…. But to Alison’s point, and your child EM taught me also, I will say to my Emily, do you want to be held, heard, or hugged? RAnd that really helps because that honors what she really needs. Because I want to I want to jump in and make sure I help her fix her, and that when we leave where she’s feeling so much better. And sometimes it’s just not that, right.

Alison : Sometimes it’s just not that. So I remember that post. Like it’s so funny. Like when I think back to that time, it was when I think back, there was so much going on for Em then, right? And must have been frightened, scared in a moment of transition, not knowing what they were going to do, how they were going to be accepted…. We were in a pandemic, they’re stuck at our house, their younger brother is there, my son…. It just was… And their bravery to come out in a way is inspiring to me. You know, it’s never really, they’re very smart, kid. They’re really, if you met them, you’d fall in love with them. Like, they’re just, they’re just great. So. Yeah. So and it’s interesting that you bring that up because I was reading that the other day thinking, wow, look at that. Like Em was really teaching me something there.

Ingrid: Maybe I can ask you a question about miracles, since the book that brought you together initially Was a book entitled, A Course in Miracles, which is a book from 1976 by Helen Schucman. And the underlying premise of that book, as I understand it, is that the greatest miracle in life is the act of simply gaining a full awareness of love’s presence in a person’s life. So that leads me to ask you, do you believe in miracles? And what makes a miracle?

Jean : Well, that’s such a beautiful question, Ingrid. And I definitely believe in miracles. I feel, and through the teachings of A Course in Miracles, that a miracle is a shift in your perception. So if something’s bothering you, it’s usually because you’re judging it. So to recognize that you’re in judgment and then to just go, you know, I want to see this differently. And sometimes it happens automatically. Sometimes it takes a little time. But that sincere desire to see, to see the love within a situation, it brings forth miracle. And the miracle is peace of mind. You know more joy. And that energy builds and it starts reflecting that in your outer world. So it starts within, the shift of perception, and we know we’re off of our love perception when we’re not feeling happy or when we’re feeling fear or something.., and and that’s okay, it’s not judging that either. You know, it’s just going, okay… Wow, I got so much fear around this, and just not judging that, just being like, oh, you have a lot of fear. Okay. Take a breath. You know and like to to what, we are coming full circle to your question, like finding the silver lining, finding the love in there…. So what do you think?

Alison : So how do you want me to follow that? I mean, oh, yeah, but she’s, I think, a miracle….is…..hahahahah

Jean : eating a box Donuts and not gaining weight.

Alison : That’s exactly for me. That’s exactly it. I’m like, duh. Yeah… Chocolate is a miracle. I mean, yes, yes to all that. And I think that the miracle has is such a loaded word. Right. Because people think in the Virgin Mary has to land or you see something or like, you know what I mean? But those can be, um, can be just small wonders, you know, or small moments of gratitude or small moments of feeling very connected. I think those are like miracles.

Jean : And this is a miracle. Yeah, I mean the fact that we can be together on this, on this technical device, that I don’t even know how it works. The fact that we figured out how to get through Chrome.

Ingrid:  my daughter asked me yesterday, how does the text come to your phone? And I was like, that’s a daddy question.

Jean : My mother would say, um, how was your flight? Because she lives in New York and I live in LA, and she’s like, so tell me about your flight. And I’m like, mom, it was a miracle, right? I got from LAX to JFK in the big metal tube. Yeah.

Ingrid: Seriously? I mean, do you look at planes and wonder, like, every once in a while, like the at the airport?

Alison : It’s such a massive, heavy thing, and yet someone thought of that. Yeah. Someone said, you know let’s do that.  I have a friend and they had to have a medical test, like an ultrasound or an MRI, and they said someone thought of that. Like someone said, I’m going to send a sound wave through you. You’re not going to feel it, but I’m going to see your insides-   People are miracles, right?

Kathleen : Like, I have to say that for our listeners who can’t see us all right, now that, um. Well, first I should say that Allison and Jean are together, and it’s adorable. They’re sitting next to each other, but you two are laughing and looking at each other. It’s like it’s.. just seeing i could see your friendship right there on the screen. And it’s so wonderful. And I’m wondering, could you tell us about maybe how I believe you met in a book club, but tell us about that first time you met and kind of how your friendship grew from there.

Alison : Okay, so Jean and I were in a book club, our friend Maureen Muldoon, she was running this book club on, A Course in Miracles, and we met and Jean owned a flower shop, and I just knew that, you know, this was Jean, and she seemed lovely. And we’d say hi and chat and I had no idea who she was. You know, it was just a whole bunch of people that Maureen knew. And one day, um, Jean was sitting down and we were chatting and catching up, and Jean says, you know, um, I really want to talk about the, um, the Emmys, the Daytime Emmys or the nighttime Emmys. And I was like, oh, in my mind, I’m thinking, that’s interesting. And she says, and did you see what Alex wore? And I’m thinking, what the hell. I like, you know, but you know, the tie and and and then she was talking about his speech, and I turned to my other friend, and I said, man, she really likes Alex Trebek. Like, you know, how does she feel about Pat Sajak? You know what’s going on. And so here’s this person that was completely unaffected by any of that, and we just started becoming friends. And I was amazed that I had no idea that this person was somehow connected to that other person, that you would have a lot of thoughts about. Do you know? Jean is so down to earth and funny and smart? She makes me laugh harder, I think, than anybody, right? We laugh. We laugh till we, like, it’s sick. She cracks me up and slowly but surely Jean took over the Course in Miracles at Jean’s house. And then, slowly but surely. I don’t even know. It just felt like this natural progression. We just sort of found each other again this lifetime, you know what I mean? Yeah. What do you think? Like, I don’t even know what you thought of me when you saw me?

Jean : I thought Allison would ask great questions during the course of miracles. The reading, when we were reading the text together and we were like six women dedicated. Every Monday morning, they would meet at my home and we would read this text. And this is a huge book. It’s like two inches thick and and it’s dense. It’s written in, in a very in a Shakespearean language. And it’s very, um, it’s not easy to decipher, really a lot to swallow. And yet it’s it’s very beautiful. Again, the premise is not to judge and to forgive. And Allison would ask such poignant questions. And I just remember thinking, wow, she’s so smart. And seriously, I did think, really think that. And then Maureen told me that she was an actress and and I just thought-  I did see her once on TV, on a commercial, and I don’t watch a lot of TV, and I thought, that’s, you know, she’s becoming my friend. But I do think it’s when I told Allison I was working on a film about forgiveness. So I have a friend, his name is Ike, and We were going around and filming people that that had forgiveness lessons, and something happened and we got to interview some great people. And we changed directions. And so I said to Allison, wow, we’ve got all this footage of really beautiful testimonials about how, you know something happened … Life didn’t go the way I wanted it to. And I had to forgive a certain person and and what forgiveness meant. And Alison was there, sort of. Yeah, I can see it, let’s do something with that. And so that became, I think, our project and as we got to know each other through that project, she truly is one of my most dearest friends.

Alison : And but you know what’s funny? Remember that first secret Santa that we had at your house during the course of miracles? Yeah, we had a Secret Santa, and you got to pick out, and I got Jean’s gift that she was giving to anyone. And it’s a heart, a floral heart that I still have. How many years ago is that? 15. 20. 20. 20 years. Hanging in my room and and so, like, you know, sometimes it just is meant…. Do you know what I mean? Like, sometimes you go like. Like we barely knew each other then ,I think it was like the first times I’m in Jean’s house and I got this heart like… Don’t you think that’s kind of cool? Yeah. And then just, it’s just still hanging.

Jean : And I do remember there was one time, well alison was very dedicated, she would show up all the time Monday. There was a couple of times when she couldn’t show up, either for an audition or something. And I remember she’s the one person that I was like, oh, Alison’s not here in the morning. So, I mean, I love all the other ones, they were great. Um, truly great, but I it was something that Alison would bring to the group and I was like, oh, okay, well, we’re great. And all the other women are amazing. Yeah. So.

Alison : And we just kept laughing a lot. Yeah. Through it all, like all the things that now we’ve gone through. Like when I think to myself. All the stuff that we’ve gone through. And it just we would laugh and just. We were just goofy together.

Kathleen : Jean, can I ask you a question that just kind of came to my mind earlier today when I was thinking about this, but I was thinking about owning a flower shop and just how, like, I was driving by a flower shop in my town. And I was thinking how, like, you really see people at their happiest and at their most sad moments. And like, I mean, 17 years is a long time to own any business. Is that…. Tell me about that. And if you if you felt that way. I know it’s also a stressful business and working with perishables is always, always an added stress too. But tell me a little about that.

Jean : Well, I did it with my very dear friend Janet, who we are still to this day super close and I adore her. So to your point, it is, flowers are such a celebration of life and life as you both know, as our listeners know, there are highs and lows and it’s just everything– flowers just celebrate life.  You know that this physical incarnation, it has a time frame like flowers do– you know they don’t last forever. There’s a circle of life. And, um, I think that’s one of the reasons I do love flowers is to me, they just symbolize the circle of life. And wow, that that was another whole chapter of learning to just honor people where they’re at. So there were many celebrations, many birthdays, many holidays that we were super busy. You know, there were funerals and things like that. So it ran the gamut. I looked back, that was such a honor to run that with my my friend, Janet. I love her, and she was a great teacher and still a very dear friend.

Alison : Did you make deliveries?

Jean : Yes, I made deliveries. My husband made a couple of deliveries. I would ask him while on his way home.

Ingrid: Premium delivery, they thought won the lottery .

Alison : Wait a minute. He would go to the door with the flowers.

Jean : He had 1 or 2 deliveries for me,I rarely did that, but I was like, could you just drop this off on the way home from the studio? And I don’t know, people must have thought they won the…

Ingrid: The publisher’s clearing house. Yeah.

Kathleen : Or something amazing…. Ed McMahon is sick today. Here’s Alex Trebek.

Jean : Does anyone tell you that you look like Alex Trebek?  hahah

Alison : Are people ever sad to get flowers? Like, did you ever feel or is it always like they open the door like, ohhhh.

Jean : I think it’s always oh yea!!. Yeah.

Alison : I love that.

Jean : And there was one time that I delivered flowers and I was, um, going to a hospital, and the lady asked me to read the card. It was an older lady in bed. And at that time, you could go into the hospital room. Now, you know, you have to leave everything, like at a front desk. But I went in and, um, and I had to read this long card from…. And thank God  i wrote the card out, at the flower shop, I wrote the card out and I thought it was a very deep, meaningful card that I was reading to this woman in the bed. And she had some type of like a spiritual book from Buddha or Buddhism or something. And I just remember reading this card and getting choked up. And so the flower shop was great. It was it was beautiful.

Kathleen : And I think it ties ties to sort of what you’re doing now with, you know, your focus on healing. And, um, I know you’re a professional religious science practitioner and, uh, Reiki master and sound healer. So you really have focused on healing for so much of your career. Can you tell us sort of, when you realized that that was your focus and how you came to focus on that?

Jean : Well, I had I had a brother growing up who passed away at 20 years old in a car accident. So I think when you have a traumatic childhood or something that happens, that’s not the the quote, normal way of the progression, you know, so I think for a lot of people, not all people, but it it sort of makes you wonder if you will, like what’s going on, why why him? Why? Where is he now? And I just remember being very fascinated with metaphysics in my late 20s. I also had a really big eating disorder. Um, that was very hard for me to get over for a long time. So my brother’s passing in the car accident, my eating disorder, really challenged me to look for something beyond my personality self. To be more in this world than than than just the obvious. So I think I directly experienced healing from Reiki, from a person that did Reiki on me, and I was released from the addiction of purging my food, and I was so grateful, so grateful for that release that I wanted to help people in that way. That was the catalyst.

Ingrid: So beautiful to know. Take your own experience and infuse it and take it to help others.

Alison : Jean always tries to uplift people and that’s like a healing in itself. Jean, for a while, uh, wanted to work in a department store, and so she took, like, a little Christmas job in a department store, and women would come up and say, oh, I feel like I need creams on my face, and Jean would say, you don’t … You are so beautiful.

Ingrid: The management was not so thrilled. hahah

Alison : Because Jean’s whole thing is about, and that’s like, that’s what she does to all her friends. Like it’s like, so that healing thing I think was just it’s just a part of her daily way. She moves in the world, you know.

Jean : You too.

Ingrid: I was going to say it feels like the way you, you both and certainly together are moving in the world. And I wonder if you could take us into InsideWink, as it were, and that creative project that really is born of of your friendship. It didn’t start as a podcast, but it it became this beautiful, beautiful podcast. So tell us about that.

Alison : We started from what Jean was saying about the forgiveness movie, and then we tried to think of a place that all the interviews that Jean and our friend Trish Geiger had done and Trish, Trish was great.  And she did all the, she’s just a bright, energetic spirit. And Jean had all these wonderful interviews and we couldn’t figure out a place to, like, hang them. Like, where are they going to live? And we thought of ideas for movies, but it all seemed very forced and weird. And there were a lot of these talking head movies out there. So we thought, well, maybe we could do a website and house them there. And, um, we worked with Patti and Steve setting up the website, and they did a great job, and the website was there, and it was a lot of work and…

Ingrid: So then you decided to make a podcast, which is, you know, easy breezy. hahah

Alison : You know, I think there were so many moving pieces in the website. We had all these writers and all these people submitting and Patti and Steve and us and then the films that we wanted something that was just kind of us that we could write, that we think that we could sort of manage. So I sort of do the best I can with the editing. We have Eddie, who still helps us, and Emma, who helps us with social media, and that’s it. It’s really just the four of us, which is so much…. It’s just a smaller thing. Do you think. Do you think that’s it?

Jean : Yeah. I think what you said is absolutely the journey of insidewink and, um, you know, it is a labour of love. Yeah. We don’t have any sponsors, so we just… And also I’m busy…. Allison’s super busy, so we just wanted something that that wasn’t overwhelming, that we didn’t lose the joy that we we felt… Oh, I’m looking forward to this. Rather than, oh, God, we still have to work on this. We wanted to make sure the energy behind this uplifting website stayed up, not  heavy.

Jean : Like, I kid you not, we have the nicest, uh, interviews.  It’s just, it’s so uplifting. So I still get nervous doing the interviews. I think one of the things I admire and love about Alison, I guess love and appreciate about Alison, she she does have this great driving force in a way… Like she’s… I don’t want to say the alpha, but she she does, no, no not pushy, but I think also given that she has an acting background, she easily engages with people in a very heart centered way. I’m a little bit more of the observer, like pull back and I, I think that it forces me to grow, to step up and ask questions. And Alison has such a good read on me. She knows when I’m. Oh, I feel like Jean wants to say something. So yeah, because I do enjoy being more behind the scene, but I am enjoying this whole process of interviewing and talking with these great people.

Alison : And Jean has always, um, we’re so different that our questions are always really different. Do you find that between you two?

Kathleen : Absolutely. Yes. Yeah.

Ingrid: Yeah, yeah. We can we can relate to just about every single thing that you’ve just said. Like it is… It is such a labor of love. Right. And if if you can’t approach and the whole point is to be positive in the world and tell these great stories, and we too have met such unbelievable people who, and there’s no way we would.. We would never have met you if we weren’t doing this. So it’s it’s such a gift.

Jean : I have to say, when I saw these two women are doing,  “My silver lining”, I right away thought, what a great title. Yeah.

Kathleen : Oh, thank you.

Jean : that is so in alignment with what we’re doing.

Alison : And I think, I think there’s just such room for women, you know, that are maturing and friends and, um, doing their own thing. I think that’s like it gives me chills the fact that you’re doing it. I wish more people would hear this and say, hey, I’ve got a friend. I could talk to people because I think all these voices I think are, are creating a shift. I really think that.

Ingrid:  I totally agree with you. What this is all about is having more conversations with people, with strangers, with or deeper conversations with the people that you already know, to better understand their life’s experience. You know, we very often go back to that quote from Robin Williams, you never know what another person is going through, be kind and you just don’t know. And the magic is in the discovery. So I quite agree with you. I mean, having more women do this and have these conversations and men as well, of course, is is really additive. There’s a lot of noise out there. There’s a we were told by any number of people like why would you do a podcast? It’s oversaturated. There are millions of podcasts. They’re like, how many listeners are you going to get? And I don’t know… Of course, we’d love to… You know, everybody wants to go viral…. Everybody wants hundreds of thousands or millions of of listeners. But we know we’re doing a good thing. The people who do listen tell us the out of the woodwork, people we’ve never encountered come to us and say, like, I heard that episode, like, that’s really great what you’re doing. So there’s a reward in that.

Alison : And our guests seem to have fun. And I think, well, that’s good. You know, if they’re only if their mother or sister listens, I’m like, happy.

Kathleen : Exactly. Yes.

Alison : You know, we had fun, and I feel like I’ve learned so much. And yet I think Jean and I talk about this all the time. Everybody says the same thing. You know, it’s all boils down to love, compassion, kindness. It’s just so moving to me, you know?  Miracle.

Ingrid: Yeah. And it helps you realize that we’re all, you know, even though we’re saying we might not have met someone. They’re so different than us that. Then once you start talking, you realize that you have so many similarities that it really brings… I think helps to bring people together.

Alison : And I think we’re inundated, you know, as we all, everyone says we’re inundated right now with such disparate views on TV news. And it can be so frightening. And I think, you know, I think the world is actually a place of goodness and learning and opportunity to to teach each other the meaning of like, loving each other. I understand everyone has very different beliefs and there’s a lot of stuff going on right now, but I think we all want basically the same thing. We want to be heard and seen. We want to be treated in an authentic, kind, honest way. And if you have a different belief than me, I think a more positive choice is to listen. You know, I don’t know, just, you know, to uplift, I think would be the thing. You know, and I think that’s what you guys are doing and that’s hopefully what, you know, we’re doing.

Ingrid: Definitely. Do you want to talk about the power of thoughts, Kathleen.

Kathleen : Well, so I know that was in, um, episode that I had just listened to that, uh, about where they were talking about the tapping. One of the things that, that you were talking about is just that your thoughts have power and how to try to change. You have to be careful about what you’re thinking and how how to actually control that and change that and make sure that we’re thinking positively about ourselves and about others. And so I wonder, how you both stay optimistic and grounded and if you have any practices, do you meditate? How do you think about that power of thought and keeping your thoughts positive?

Jean : Well, okay. So yeah, thoughts are really powerful. I don’t think people really realize that. We think that I can be thinking something negative and it doesn’t affect me. But if I’m looking at someone and going, oh, you’re such a loser. It’s a boomerang effect to me. We’re first and foremost souls that are vibratory beings, and we we emit this feeling, you know, and thoughts have have a feeling to them. So when you are thinking negative, it’s to really catch that and to go, why am I feeling so sad today? You know. What am I? What am I thinking?  and it’s challenging because this world is very distracting. It’s it’s pulls you out, and you always think it’s something outside of yourself. And and it is something that I’m, I have to really be conscious of every day. My thoughts, it’s not like, oh, I’m always in gratitude. And no, I because I am sensitive, I, I need to prime myself every morning. So I don’t really meditate per say, but I do read the course of miracles, which just  reminds me. Okay, I’m in charge of my thinking. That’s what I’m in charge of. I’m in charge of how I want to perceive the situation. That’s what I can… And it’s sort of when I do, when I do that, my day Does unfold with more flow. Is it always goes my way? No, no definitely not. But I’m a little more buoyant and and and I feel more grateful. And I feel that is a gift to everyone around me.

Alison : You know? And I think too, that when we say positive thoughts. Right…. I think for me, I’m trying to move away from that because, I know thoughts are very powerful. But I think A Course in Miracles, for me, that line it’s either love or a call for love takes away the judgment of positive and negative, which I think for me, I get trapped in sometimes. Oh, don’t think that that’s a bad thought. And then I can either get down on myself or I. So I’m really trying for the past few years, trying to focus on it’s either love or a call for love. So when I’m having a feeling that would be considered negative and not positive. I try to think so, what is the call for love here? What is that person looking for? What am I looking for? And then it kind of removes the judgment of positive and negative because, I think sometimes that’s hard… Like, do you know what I mean? Yeah. Like.

Jean : I will just go, wow, Gene, you have a really strong judgment over that. Yeah. And I try not to judge that. I just go, yeah. And then go to that.. I need to love that part of myself that is thinking that.

Alison : And it’s like what we were saying before about Em. Right. That, um, you know, wanting to be able to experience all these thoughts and feelings, get them out, not judge them. And I hired a therapist when you used to say and put them over here and then let’s, like, look at them like we’re in a lab, you know. And I think that for me, it’s so hard because, I think I live in a very judgmental world.

Ingrid: what a great way to think about it.

Alison : Yeah, good. You’re bad. You’re wrong. You’re right, you’re fat.

Ingrid: You got it. You didn’t get it, you know?

Alison : Yeah. And and trying to live a life that an authentic life of of being kind and loving in that kind of arena has moved me to stop judging those thoughts. Does that make sense to you? Do you know what I mean?

Ingrid: Oh my gosh. I mean, I think this I think what you’re talking about takes so much practice and active… I don’t know if this is the right way to put it, but active intervention, because we can just gravitate to the negative. There’s a self-help book that Kathleen and I both read years ago called, Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway. And one of the there’s so many things in that book that I think are resonant and so incredibly helpful. But one of the things that she really pauses on is, why is it?… Just think for a moment…. Why is it that when you have a situation, the and you tell someone what’s going on and the immediate reaction tends to the negative, as against the positive, like  regardless of circumstance, like let’s just say like there’s a 50/50 chance of positive or negative. Why do we automatically gravitate to the negative and kind of belittle the folks who gravitate to the positive? Like, oh, you know, you’ve got rosy colored glasses on.

Kathleen : Like like saying like, I’m sure I won’t get that part. Like, oh, it was- I think it went well, but I’m sure I won’t get it.

Alison : I actually think it’s in our like, this DNA. Right? So like when we were walking around, you know, as Neanderthal, you know, hairy beings, you know, we had to focus on the scary, you know, look over there. I think it was almost a survival. And I think that part of that lizard brain is still there, and that the classroom that we’re in is somehow figuring out how to let that reptilian, primitive brain go. And we don’t really talk like that to each other anymore.

Jean : Like, it almost feels poisonous, actually. Literally. I’m like, oh, angels… I’m like, I, I feel heavy and not great… You know, there’s always a difference of opinion, but it’s that great Rumi quote that, you know, “beyond right and wrong, I will I will meet you there.”  or something like that.

Alison : Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.

Alison : I love that. Yeah. That’s so that’s true. I mean, I think that you’re right. It’s a lot of catching yourself. And there were plenty of times that, you know, we don’t do it. And that’s why it’s good to have someone or a friend or a partner or a pet that you can kind of talk to and be like, oh, you know, I’m frightened or I’m scared or I’m angry or I’m frustrated and have someone say, you know, I hear you, I hear you, and that’s all. Those are all valid feelings. And yet, you know, can we bring in some light into that? Because I think the whole key of why community is so important.

Ingrid: I feel like it’s hard to have this conversation with the two of you without taking a pause on and talk about grief and how we process grief. And you both experienced deep losses. And, um, Jean, yours had the added layer of being quite public. It’s not often that, you know, you’re you have a loved one who’s going through cancer, and the rest of the world knows about it and and very well intentioned, i’m sure you had all kinds of outpourings of support and help from folks from all over the world because Alex was so beloved. But tell us a little bit about and this is for, for for both of you… Can you give us your thoughts on on grief in the context of the conversation we’ve been having about managing our negative thoughts, our feelings of loss and compassion?

Jean : Well, there was this beautiful saying that I think Queen Elizabeth the Second said when Prince Philip passed away. I’m going to paraphrase, but it really spoke to how I felt- is that where there is great love, there is always grief, because this world, as we spoke about before, isn’t isn’t a forever existence, you know? And I think my biggest takeaway is how precious life is. And for me, the grieving process is it’s still there. Someone said it’s first the absence of presence and then it’s the presence of absence. So for Alex, his- I do think about him a lot still. I can’t even… Doesn’t feel like he’s been gone almost four years. But I feel his Presence, not all the time, but certainly when I’m in a more quiet space and I really desire to connect with him, I right away my shoulders get a little tingly or I’ll get a little emotional. I have his photo on my desk right now.. So I, I see him and talking about him is really beautiful because, it’s ongoing. You know, you just get used to it. And there are there are days that I miss him more than other days… And there’s no recipe to grief. It’s as our A person, a beautiful person that we interviewed yesterday, Chaz Ebert said, it’s very individual. So it also depends, I think, on on the relationship you had with that person. Mm. What do you think Alison?

Alison : I love you.

Jean : I love you.

Alison : It’s okay. You know, it cracks open your heart. Grief. Yeah. And yet, you know, a Jill Bolte Taylor, a woman that, um, Doctor Jill that we interviewed, she had a stroke, and she lost the power to use part of her brain. And, um, her fate… And she she’s a neuroscientist. She’s just amazing. And discusses your right side and left side, and one is just completely ethereal, and the other is, uh, work and very tactile and very human. And that her favorite emotion she felt after having this really life changing experience was grief, because it’s so intense. And as Jean says, a sign of love. And it kind of can make you sick. And it can, it just lets it out. I don’t know. So in some ways, you know, I’ve, I’ve grown to admire the emotion of grief because it becomes meaningful. It’s a very, very powerful thing. And I think when my father died, many, many, many, many years ago, like I’ve lived most of my life without my father and I would just before this, I was just saying to Jean, you know, I wish that I could have known my dad as an adult at all. Like, I wish I could have known him. And that’s grief. I’m not crying. But there’s a moment of grief, and it’s. It’s okay. Like, it’s like an opening to love. So, you know and my mother was very much in Jean situation, like a young widow and watching someone maneuver that from a child’s viewpoint, and then as a friend viewpoint, you just really see that, you know, it’s just part of this and, you know, there must be an opportunity in that for growth then, you know, so…

Jean : That’s the biggest thing I think too, is, is the the growth that happens.

Ingrid: What do you think for you, your biggest, biggest changes have been.

Jean : With Alex not being in my life, it’s definitely being more responsible for more of the day to day things because, he took care of all that. We had a very traditional, old fashioned — the man goes to work, he makes the money, the woman raises the children and has the dinner. So that is how we operated very well as a couple. And then with his transition, I had to take over managing the finances, managing the house, things that I was like, oh, there was a sprinkler system?  What is this?  A pool system, you open the cover when it rains, like….

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : So because I was in a way because of Alex’s job and when the kids became when we became empty nesters, I, I really could delve into more of the spiritual world. And now it’s taking all of that spiritual knowledge and actually applying it to the everyday, ordinary life. And I know he’s with me and I know he’s going, you can do this, and don’t get overwhelmed and get out of your head and stop doubting yourself. So I think that’s the other thing when you lose a spouse, after we were married almost 31 years, I knew him even before that. But, there’s another part of you that has to emerge. And that doubt, like I’m like, oh, is this– I’m not strong in this area, and so having beautiful friends like Allison, you know, sort of buoy me as I go kicking and screaming into things that I don’t want to do.

Alison : Yeah, that’s a lot. It’s a lot. You know, it’s a big change.

Jean : We have a minister friend who would say, oh, that’s another AFCO. And it means, the acronym is –  Another Fine Growth Opportunity.

Kathleen : I like it.

Ingrid: I think we all need to think that. Yeah.

Kathleen : Well, thank you for sharing that. I know that’s not easy to talk about..

Jean : I don’t mind talking about it, it just does bring up… you know…

Kathleen :  of course. Of course it does. Um, and you’re helping people just by talking about it,

Jean : And myself.

Kathleen : That’s wonderful. Um, I hadn’t thought of it that way, but, yeah, you’re also helping people through, um, your Foundation. Could you tell us a little bit about the work you’re doing through your Foundation?

Jean : Well, it’s called the Trebek Family Foundation, and Alex and I started it like 15 years ago or something like that. And, um, you know, we don’t have a specific, um… Oh, we we only focus on education or we focus on childhood illness. You know, we we sort of are a big arc of just uplifting where we where we feel inspired to. Um, right now we’re very dedicated to Helen Keller International, World Vision, Hope the mission, which is our, um, homelessness here in the Los Angeles County. Uh, so so we’re sort of in very different places. We do a lot of work in Harlem, New York. That’s where my son Matthew lives. Emily, my daughter, she loves,  Baby to Baby. And her alma mater of Campbell Hall – in low income families. So there’s many, many different areas that we love to support. And, uh, it’s just a beautiful, actually extension of Alex’s heart and his great spirit… That’s all about giving back and and not really seeing others as less than but seeing just, hey, you know, we can all give each other a hand up.

Ingrid: You know, I listened to a speech, actually, you both spoke at Fordham when you received a Founder’s Award. Um, I think your son Matthew went to Fordham. And one of the things that Alex said was, if you have compassion in your heart, everything is possible. And I wonder if we could close this out by talking about the importance of having compassion and and just asking you to share with our listeners how how you think we can all find ways to be more compassionate.

Alison : I guess it’s, um, knowing that actually the love that I feel for Jean or Dan or my children, Brady and Em,  that love is the same love that I could feel for anyone if I opened up and allowed myself to actually be and see them in their shoes and in their life. And sometimes I have met people and I think, oh man, that is not my person. And then you see that you you never know what’s going on, you know. And you see them and then all of a sudden you, like, fall in love with them because you realize, oh, that was totally a story I told myself because of my error thinking. And, you know, I can immediately change that. And I think that for me, I really try to remember that and see people the way I would want to be seen the first time. You know, I’m I’m loud or whatever, or, you know, there’s sides of me where I, you know, be abrasive or loud or opinionated and yet, like, I’m very soft and and a little frightened and tiny, I feel tiny. And so maybe that’s part of it. And I want like, so I would like people… I want to give honor them by allowing them… i’m going to think positively about them first off.

Jean : We don’t know what someone is going through,  at all.. Ever.

Alison : No.

Alison : And I just take it upon myself now, and I think sometimes it drives my kids crazy or sometimes they like it. I will talk to like everyone and ask them how their day is going or what they’re doing or who they are, or, and my kids will be like, everybody in that elevator, like, did you And, like I’ll be like online and see like online the other day with Brady and I’ll be like, hey, I like your shirt, and we started talking and this woman was between jobs and we were talking and I said, well, you know, maybe you could reach out to this thing or that thing. And Brady’s like, what are you like, how do you do that? Like, mom, you know, and I’m really trying to make that effort because, uh, Chaz Ebert, who’s Roger Ebert’s wife, which is, you know, um, she was saying that the next step when you have compassion is kindness, which is really the act of doing something. So, yeah, I think that’s I think that’s where I’m trying to step towards. Right. What about you?

Jean : Well, yes, Everything you said.. and you know, when I think of the word compassion, and this is exactly what you said, it’s that –  do unto others as you would have done unto you.

Jean : And I,  do think just acknowledging someone is is huge. Just saying, ” hi” to someone in the market. Uh, we interviewed a lady that has these cards that says, “you matter” and she leaves them around everywhere she goes. And, you know, it’s such, it’s so simple. It doesn’t have to be a big deal. You know, you you don’t need money to show compassion. It’s just a smile, holding the door open, asking someone if they want a drink. So I do think compassion is what the soul really … I cannot think of a more compassionate person than my friend Alison sitting next to me, and I’m also, I just am so grateful that we have this website together And your website too–  I mean podcast, right. that are generating acts of compassion . But, you know, going back to thoughts, it is that, those thoughts of kindness, you know, and it’s and it’s or just our verbiage.

Alison : Yeah, exactly.

Jean : My goodness, we really put ourselves through the wringer. So thank you Ingrid and Katherine for saying..

Alison : That’s right. We’re doing our best.

Kathleen : Absolutely. That’s all we can do. It’s all any of us are doing. Absolutely. Ladies, thank you so, so much.

Alison : Thank you guys so much. We wish you lived nearby so we could go out.

Ingrid: Wouldn’t that be awesome?

Kathleen : All right, be careful what you wish for, right?

Alison : I know we’re kindred spirits. You guys are so wonderful and sweet and so gentle. Thank you so much.

Kathleen : Thank you so much.

Jean : Thank you both.

Kathleen :  that was fabulous. I feel like we made two new friends.

Ingrid: I don’t think I’ve ever laughed that much on on one of our episodes. And we talked about this before, before recording. If you listen to their show, you can’t not have a smile on your face. They laugh all the time. Their friendship is really, their friendship is infectious.

Kathleen : I think it’s also there is something about and we should think about this, because there is something about seeing them together in the same room and a dynamic of, you know, you could see their sense of humor and how they play off of each other and answer each other’s questions or kind of nudge one another when when one person might be better suited to answer a question. So that was really nice to see, too.

Ingrid: And I don’t know this for certain, and I meant to ask, but the way some of their episodes started, it really does feel like some of their guests come over, which is just it just lends a different kind of intimacy and engagement for the conversation. So as wonderful as this technology is and it is, you do lose something from it. But what a beautiful conversation and a lot for us to think about in terms of the power of our own thoughts. Pause and think about the power that you have on the conversations you have in your own mind about yourself. That negative reel that says you can’t or you shouldn’t, and those judgments that you then transfer onto others. It doesn’t have to be quite like that. I really appreciate that. So Kathleen…

Kathleen : Thank you so much. It was another great, great hour spent together and making new friends.

Ingrid: Excellent. Until next time, keep looking for those silver linings.

Kathleen : Thank you.

Ingrid: Bye bye. Thanks for Thanks for listening to. This is my silver Lining- with us, your hosts, Ingrid Burchinal and Kathleen Merrigan.

Kathleen : This show is edited and produced by the amazing John Cor at Wayfare Recordings. And our original show art is by Alyssa Love. We hope you enjoyed this episode. If you love hearing these inspirational stories, please follow, rate and review our podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

Ingrid: Please join us again next week when we’ll be back with a new episode. We’re always looking for silver linings, so if you have one you’d like to share, let us know. You can always find us on Instagram or on our website. Thisismysilverlining.comm. Be sure to check out the links and resources in our show notes.

Kathleen : Have a great week! And until next time, keep finding those silver linings.

Jean : Hi there.

Alison: Hello. Hello there… How are you doing?

Jean : I’m good. How are you doing?

Alison: I’m good. You went for a walk this morning?

Jean : I did, I went for about a 20 minute walk, which I usually do actually, in the morning and then I’ll do another one later.

Alison: Oh. That’s nice.

Jean : How was your morning?

Alison: I was running errands. And, um. Pretty good.

Jean : Nice.

Alison: A friend of mine who’s not been feeling well went into the hospital yesterday and is feeling much better.

Jean : Good. I was going to ask you about her.

Alison: So feeling so much better. So that’s a relief. Like it’s almost like you want to cry. Do you know what I mean? Like, oh, good. That that’s something good. And, um, I think it’s a beautiful day. Nice fall, beautiful, crisp day in

Jean : Southern California, and it could not be more beautiful right now.

Alison: Yeah, because we’re not we’re not sweating to bits.right?

Alison: And today you now, Lee Harris, who we interviewed a while ago… You went to a little gathering at his house and met our next guest.

Jean : Yes. Her name is Alexa Fisher, and I got to sit next to her, and she shared with me so many beautiful things, and one of them is this, um, The Power of Wishing, which we’re going to share with all of our listeners today.

Alison: I think that’s great to have that, because, you know, I mean, dandelions and shooting stars and eyelashes like I have wished on so many things my whole life. And I’m glad to know that someone, yeah, is talking about–.

Jean : I mean, wait till she gets into it. It is really powerful and there’s so much more depth to it than just, you know, blowing out candles on a cake, right?

Alison: Yeah. And right now, the way things are in the world… I think a lot of people have many wishes. Yeah, and so this will be beautiful to hear.

Jean : It will be. Yeah.

Alison: Here we go.

Jean : Okay.

Jean : oh Great. It’s lovely to see you again.

Alexa: Oh, it’s good to see you, too. It’s good to see you, too. Good. Good to see you both. And I’m so honored to be on your podcast.

Jean : Well, we are so honored to have you. And I wanted to introduce Alison since you’ve not met Alison.

Alison: Hello.

Alexa: Oh. I’m sorry. Go ahead. It’s lovely to meet you, Alison.

Alison: So nice to meet you. Really? Yeah. And I think the zoom stuff, because your house looks very peaceful. You would never know that there were teenagers lurking.

Alexa: Oh, you know what? My my teenagers are pretty… They’re really cool fellas, and and they’re very, very chill. And so our house tends to be pretty peaceful, to be honest. That’s right. That’s the way it is. Yeah.

Jean : Well, you and your husband are chill.

Alexa: Yes we are. So it sort of runs in the family or even our dog is chill. So it’s it’s good. It’s a good thing, you know, we like to have fun. I was not chill when my boys were little. I was just, oh, I think, oh, no, you weren’t at that. That dinner. Jean, I’m getting confused about which dinner I was at, but I was sharing it at dinner that if I could go back in time, and tell my younger mom self to just, like, seriously, let let it go, like, I just it was just too much for me as, like a, as a business person and a mom and trying to like, I all of a sudden had to be like Sporty Spice and throwing balls all the time. And I was just like a little bit overwhelmed. And then as I sort of matured into a different role and as my kids became far more independent, I was like, oh, so now they get to see me more as me. I’m sure my, my, my son, if he’s listening to me, would agree with that. But yeah, I wasn’t, I wasn’t always chill. Yeah. Yeah.

Jean : That’s so great.

Alison: Well, we would love. I love your story of how it all began for you.

Alexa: Mhm. Yeah.

Alison: Cause you’re very you’re into wishes and you’re into setting intentions and, um. And I love that you were like in the show bones.

Alexa: Yes. I was a professional actress as the first chapter of my career. And it just so happened that an epiphany happened on when I was shooting an episode of the TV show called, Bones. But it’s, um…. And I don’t know if we’re beginning…Are we beginning? Have we begun?

Alison: Yeah, we just sort of. It’s sort of a conversation, so…

Alexa: I love it. Let’s go..

Jean : Share that story because it’s wonderful.

Alexa: Oh, thanks. Well, I’ll tell you, you know, when people ask me about sort of my journey, there’s been very distinct chapters of my career. But the through line always for me has been the love of people. And that’s how I originally became interested in acting and how I ended up not only pursuing it in high school, and I was actually really lucky… I had great teachers, who really tapped into character and actually putting yourself in someone else’s shoes, which I am telling you, is such a potent lesson for the world that we’re in right now.

Alison: Yes.

Alexa: But my first, you know, I’m both a very artistic and sort of spiritual person, and I’m also a very practical person. So the idea of pursuing life as a professional actress inspired me to go get trained. And I ended up getting my undergraduate degree, um, at North Western University, and I ended up getting my MFA at Yale School of Drama.

Alison: Wow.

Alexa: And really, it was like, I am going to learn this. But what was so great and so fascinating in hindsight was that Yale, their philosophy of teaching, is anchored in this idea that a character has an objective. What do they want? Literally, this was the question that whether we were studying Shakespeare or Chekhov or Ibsen or anything, what does this character want? And zoom out, you know, many, many years later, I am asking the question to the world, what is your wish? What do you deeply, deeply want? And it’s when you can tap into that boy…Not just only drama ensues, but you really become activated. So cut to all of my, you know, like I’m going to be an actress. And so I graduated from Yale and I end up getting a show at the Mark Taper Forum here in Los Angeles. And I started to meet all my agents out here and really began the pursuit of life as a professional actress. Now, they didn’t care about how many accents I knew, or that I could do Shakespeare and Chekhov and all the things. I started making commercials and TV shows and all of like doing really the business of acting. But once I was inside the business, it became very apparent to me that the stars that everyone so admired, um, were really just people, just like everybody else, just like you and me. And some of them were fabulous, and some of them were absolutely not fabulous. And what pained me was that every day people would put themselves down ever so slightly, comparing themselves to these stars that they put on pedestals. And it literally pained my heart because once you’re inside the industry, you realize it’s all an illusion. And I found myself butting up against many of the clichés that people hear about the entertainment industry. And I also found myself, spending a lot of time waiting. Because if you’re on a set of a TV show or a film or even a commercial, you end up waiting, not wasting time…But there’s just a lot of downtime.

Alison: Yeah.

Alexa: And so I started to recognize this feeling of was I doing the work that I came here on the planet to do? As I waited hours and hours and hours and hours and as I interacted with people that I really felt were not my people, you know? So I’m on the set of the TV show bones, and I’m shooting this episode and I’m playing a lawyer, and something bad happens to my character, and we’re about 12 or 13 hours into the shoot, and I’m laying on the filthy floor of the L.A. times building where we were filming, and I was waiting for the lights and waiting for the sound and waiting for the other actors. And I had all this fake blood pouring out of my mouth as I’m laying there. And I had a total, like, panic attack that I was like, what the heck am I doing with my life? Like, this cannot be my measure of success, that this is what I’ve been working for… Because on the outside, it looked like everything was going great, but on the inside I knew that I wasn’t living in my truth. I knew that there was more for me, but I didn’t know what it was… So hence the panic. And in that moment on the floor, which is in the episode, so you actually can see this moment, uh, although I’m quite still because I’m supposed to be, like, dead or injured or whatever. Uh, I asked basically, God, I just asked the universe, oh my goodness, please give me a sign because I cannot be doing this with my time, my precious time on the planet, just not who I am. And I think many people at various moments in their lives can relate to that.

Jean : Yeah.

Alexa: And so I asked for a sign. That’s all I asked because I really freaking didn’t know. And I didn’t ask it in a nice way. I asked it in like a screaming kind of quietly in my mind way.. And two days later, I’m driving in the car, as one does in Los Angeles quite a bit, and I get a call out of the blue from my dear friend who I met on set. She was a makeup artist for a commercial that I shot and we hit it off. We were thick as thieves, and she had started a new business where she was taking predominantly entrepreneurial women and up leveling their look, their wardrobe, their makeup, and really helping them feel more empowered in their bodies. And she had a client that was going to lead a workshop, a conference for about 500 women, and she was flying in from Texas, and she needed a media coach, and I didn’t really know what that was, but I was like, yes, I it was a full body YES.

Alexa: And I said, I will do it. She’s like, you know, she’s flying out on this day, she needs a she needs help with this because she really wants to feel confident on stage, confident in her message, confident by really commanding that energy for for three for two and a half days. And I was like, I would love to. And then I get off the phone and I’m like, whoa, I have no clue how I am going to translate what I know as a performer and to making it a voice activated, body activated, heart activated lesson. How am I going to do this? But there is nothing like a deadline to get you to get your tush in gear. And I knew when she was coming and I had to put together a proposal with with cost associated with it, and I was like, what am I going to do? So I end up stepping back and I said, okay, I have a day with her. And for me, it always begins in your mind, the stories we tell ourselves is our end is where energy comes from, the mind and I’ve done this with characters… What is, where is their mindset? What are they thinking? So I said, okay, we’re going to break down the day into three parts your mind, your voice and your body. Let’s just we’ll just stick to those.

Alexa: And I’m going to be able to ask her a series of questions. I said, I’ll send her a questionnaire in advance. Uh, and, and and so I broke down this training and I said yes, I sent the proposal. She said yes and I had a deadline. And all of a sudden I thought, well, now it’s time to figure out what my methodology is and use an individual and imagine them as if they were a character. What do you want? How do you want to make that audience feel? What actions do you want them to take? This is a fundamental, just simple question. And then we say, where are you living in your body? What vocal habits do you have?… there’s a whole training that emerged and I mapped it out. And I actually think that the way that I figured out my methodology was I took a little video camera, i went to the garage above the room, above the garage of my parents house, because I had to get some space and some quiet, away from what I believe I did at the time, have very little kids, if not babies, and I set up a camera after I had worked on an outline and I began speaking because for me especially back then when I tried to put my hands down on a keyboard, it was a different energy flow. I got too much in my head.

Alison: Yep.

Alexa: When I spoke, it just came. So I recorded myself speaking and teaching these lessons simply as a way for me to really dive into what is the core of my teaching. So I would record myself. I would often screw up. I would record it again until I felt like, yeah, that’s that’s kind of the thing. And I kept it as a way for me to workshop the work that I was going to deliver to this client. So I end up working with this client. She has a great time that day. And she says, Alexa, would you consider being the emcee for my event? Because you would be a great emcee? And she said, and by the way, because you’re going to be in front of 500 female entrepreneurs, you might as well have a website so that they could hire you. And I was like, that sounds great. This was a long time ago when making websites was not like it was today. Right. Making websites was like programming things and and I, you know, and like photography. I mean, it just was like, okay, okay. Like universe was just pushing me and pushing me. So you look around and you’re like, who the heck do I know that can make a website and take some pictures? And what am I going to write on it? And P.S., I end up finding a dear friend of mine who I was in meditation class with…this lovely guy Jay. And we, you know, create a website, uh, quickly. And he says, you know, Alexa, you’ve got all these videos that you made with your classes. It’s kind of like, why don’t you offer this as a class, an online class way before people were doing online classes. And I’m like, sure, could you just help me figure that out? Yeah. So he says, no problem. He goes online and he discovers a brand new company called UDEMY, they had just launched and more or less, and it was basically at the time, dudes teaching tech like teaching tech coding classes. No,  personal development professional zero. None. Probably very few women. Maybe just me. But he said he said, you know, Alexa, I figured out a way to take their video player and embed it into your site. He said, the only thing is you’re going to have to also sell that class called, Speak Up Stand out your mind, your voice and your body. You’re going to have to sell it on their site too. I was like, fine, no problem. Cool, cool, cool. Just let’s just do it. Let’s just do it. So I have to fast forward now. That was many, many years ago. Um, my relationship with Udemy grew as they grew. They’re a huge company now. I have over a dozen classes with them and over almost 250,000 students on Udemy.

Alison: OH My gosh.

Jean :  Wow.

Alison: That’s so great.

Alexa: Bananas, bananas. And it’s still based on confidence and communication classes. Teaching people to connect with their own light. Something that back in the day before wishing I called your thousand watt presence. I was always teaching the same thing. Not not teaching people how to talk like me. That’s so boring. Teaching people how to connect to their heart. To connect to their heart. To ignite their own, you know, light inside of them. To overcome the fears that are imagined in their minds, to step into their bodies with strength and purpose and confidence and go for it. And I just provide this like easy, gentle, easy lessons to get people in motion. And and so I sort of grew with them. And that’s where we are right now which primed… So the first chapter of my career was as an actress. The second chapter was predominantly as a teacher, and I did corporate coaching and nonprofit coaching and and classes. And then one day, the day after, this is how it cued up… The day after I had given a workshop at, um, at a homeless women’s shelter. Actually, it wasn’t just a homeless women’s shelter. It was a program that was helping women transition out of homelessness. So it was temporary housing, and they asked me to come in and do a class, and I did a class with them about the power of your mind to anchor yourself in a, in a just slightly more positive story that it has to begin inside of them. And I taught them energy muscle testing, and I taught them about the power of intention.

Alexa: And anyway, we talked about this before, Wish Beads ( there’s no wish beads). And it primed the pump. That summer, my husband’s family, who’s Italian American, had taken the whole family. We went to Italy to celebrate my in-laws 50th wedding anniversary, and I was in Lucca and Lucca in Italy is known for paper, and there was an artisan in one of the piazzas in Lucca, and she had made these necklaces of rolled up paper and fabric. And she had, you know, she had glued them and and I had so much energy for me. I like, lost my mind. I bought like a dozen of them to give away as friends. I was so excited. And  my family actually was annoyed at how excited I was and I brought them home, but that had happened this summer. The two ideas came together in a moment, in the shower the next day, and I’m taking shower, and you know, my my friend Tamara calls the shower God’s phone booth because I don’t know if you get like,…

Alison: I agree. Yeah.

Alexa: Really good ideas in the shower. Uh, but I’m just taking a shower, no problem, and suddenly I heard the name, “wish beads” like that, and I saw an intention setting experience where you imagine your wish in vivid detail. You write it down on paper and you roll that paper up, cut it, you glue it, and cut it and create a paper bead bracelet with your that’s made of your wishes.. Now, I know your friends are only listening to this, but for you, we’re on zoom.

Alexa: And this is one that I’ve had for years… The red, because I offer a red pen is my handwriting. And so over time, it almost looks like it’s clay, but it’s made of paper, and the idea is like a vision board that you’re wearing on your wrist. And I saw all of this in literally a holographic split of a second moment. And I was like, what? And I thought for a second, that is a really cool idea. And then the practical part of my brain said, well, maybe the name, Wish Beads dot com is so obvious it couldn’t possibly be available. But, I said if it is available, that’s a sign. Yep, that’s a wink, you know.

Jean : That’s right.

Alexa: So I ran to the computer, and I looked it up with like a towel around my body and sure enough, WISHBEADS.COM was available and the trademark was available. And even as I say that to you right now, my whole body gets chills.

Alison: Me too. Yeah,

Jean : Because we are all given ideas and winks. We are receiving them. They’re not ours… We become just messengers of them. And that wink, that message can come in the form of like, oh, I should call my friend and you do it. I should, you know, smile at this person and do it. I should let this person, you know, just, you know, pass in front of me while I’m driving and do it. And when you cultivate this as a way of life and become an instrument of the listening, you use that as a powerful source of strength to, to to give yourself permission to keep going.

Alexa: Because let me tell you from the the download, which sounds like, you know, yay unicorns and rainbows, to the doing of it, was a crazy amount of hard work and perseverance and falling over and and and and triumph. It was all of it. So you have to you’re really saying yes to the ride and saying yes to the journey. And as we we started this podcast, I don’t know if you’re going to be including it. We joke about, you know, our busy lives and our kids and the the noise and the thing…. And and I was sharing how when I was a young mom and entrepreneur, it was a lot for me. And I had a lot more moments where I wanted to grip and and like, I don’t know how I’m going to do all this. And the lesson with all of the time that has passed is to do all of it. And now we have a lot more to do in the world, right? To do all of it with a lot more joy and love and grace and ease and and support support from the universe and get over ourselves to think, yeah, there’s some things you have to show up and do and figure out and be in service of, but let’s do it through love and curiosity and faith.

Alison: That is such a great origin story. And it’s so great.

Jean : And and you are the perfect ambassador for for that inner light, that confidence that and and, you know, tapping into your own light like, like you mentioned. And can you share, like some tips how how to tap into your light, like if you’re feeling very mental in your life.

Alexa: Yeah.

Jean : As you just said, I think so many of us feel like we like we’ll never catch up or, um, you know that noise you talk about Alexa… So if you could just share like 1 or 2 tips that can help me, alison, our listeners maybe just…

Alexa: You know, it’s so interesting that you asked that question because last night I was on a zoom with Marianne Williamson, and the woman who was moderating this conversation asked the exact same question. And Marianne Williamson surprised me so much with her answer, so I’m going to give her credit for this answer, but it moved me, she said, and I will repeat, we know exactly what it is we need to do, because nothing that I’m going to tell you is anything different. If you have heard the power of meditation, getting into nature, taking care of ourselves, being kind to ourselves with kind words, we have heard it all. She said the responsibility right now is to do it, is to actually tell yourself no more of the excuse train of why we don’t do these things, we must do them. Do them with love, but do them with commitment. And I thought, yeah, it’s kind of that thing where, you know, you’re again, I’m going to go back to kids, where your kids are (constantly) asking, you’re like, well… and they’re like going on– and then you get to a place where you’re like, no, just do it. Like, it’s too much for me to keep on reminding you over and over again to do it. I’m saying reminding to myself, just do it. And what’s funny is, I’ve been looking at the aspects of my life because I don’t teach unless I’m teaching myself first.

Alexa: And I look at the aspect of my life where I am a naturally a very fit looking person. This is just genetics, but I know that I procrastinate, I do not work out, I do not… This is the this is sort of my old story and it doesn’t make me feel strong, and I want to feel strong. I want to feel in my body. So I don’t need actually somebody to give me tips about how to do that. It’s very clear. Exercise. Do whatever you want. Just do it. And so earlier this month, I signed on for a zoom workout with someone that I really admire. Does it sound like fun to be on zoom? No, but he’s fun. And I’ve done, i just completed this morning five days in a row… I feel different, and it’s just because I got over myself and stopped listening to the voice that pulled me away from taking the walk, showing up, making time, doing the commitment, putting the shoes on, whatever. And I just did it. And I think that my advice to you, if there has been a inkling of something that you’re you’re ready to call in, whether it’s, you know, less sugar, more fiber or, you know, more time in nature? Yes. Now, now do it. That’s it. Just do it. Do it with love.

Alison: So what’s the… I love to do it with love. Let’s end it all with that. Um. let’s just say that.  Um. So then what, what’s a wish then? If, like what you’re saying, just do it. So what am I… What am i wishing for?

Alexa: Oh. So good. And then, having led thousands of people through wishing there is this moment of a blank face where, uh. where someone is just like. I have no idea what to wish for. Like, I have no idea. So here’s how I define wishing. A wishing is a message from your heart. It’s a seed that was planted in your soul before you even came here. It was an intention of what you came here to experience. Now, those wishes, those that blueprint for your life may contain and likely does contain also the hard lessons that we signed up for, because it’s in those, and I’m not saying, you know, that’s a watch what you wish for, which is such a weird saying… We’ll go into that later, but the idea that we came here with a wish, a desire for what we’re meant to experience, good and bad, because it will grow us and our growth, our spiritual evolution is the only thing that we get to take with us. That’s it.

Jean : Yeah. I love that you say that. That’s exactly what someone else… I don’t know who it was I was listening to, but, um, it was, that’s the most important thing is to work on yourself. Work on your consciousness, trust, you know, do the work, like you said, you know, do it.

Alexa: Yeah.

Jean : There’s no more, you know, magic spell.

Alexa: Yeah.

Jean : There’s no more…We all have heard it. No one else knows it… Well, if you stand on one leg and face south, right?

Alexa: Yeah, yeah. Like I’m not jumping in a cold plunge. It’s not for me, but it could be for somebody else. It’s not my jam. It’s okay. It doesn’t make me less of a person or I’m not a trend on trend, I don’t care. But there are other things that really do work for me. So go find your thing. But this wish is is is a way for you to come back in a childlike, easy, um, playful way, come back to your heart. And because this world has been, uh, collectively over millennia, a very harsh place, it’s understandable that precious humans have protected their hearts. Nobody wants heartache. Nobody wants to love so big that they’re going to experience loss. Nobody wants to put themselves out there, so they’re going to be judged. So we protect our hearts, but our wishes are inside. And so we have to find our way to soften that protective shell so we can access our own light. We can get in touch with our wish, and we can begin to open up that heart space and discover something new. And your wish doesn’t have to be like in the spiritual term, like your life’s purpose is called your dharma. People say, oh, I’m not ready for my life’s purpose. Maybe your wish is what you’re ready to call in today, this week. You know, how do you want the holidays to pan out for you this year? How do you want the people around you to feel? I just had a friend of mine text me, you know, 20 minutes ago that said she was going to do a holiday show at her house and different, you know, people were going to sell different things, including Wish Beads.

Alexa: And she has a beautiful candle line and we’re all going to have a great time. She just texted me and said, I don’t have the bandwidth for this. And I was like, yay! Let NO be an act of freedom. Absolutely. Say no. Sounds great. Yeah. And when we wish and we cultivate that, we’re also putting ourselves in a committed way because we’re expressing it. Now think about the phenomenon that is blowing out your candles and making a wish on your birthday. What a phenomenon that we do this gesture… Literally likely from the time we are born, you know, maybe our first birthday, we can’t really do it too well– but you know what I mean? Like your whole life, your whole family, collectively as, like, citizens across cultures, across countries– this is a phenomenon… So it’s astonishing. And yet we close our eyes, so they say, here’s your birthday candles make a wish. We close our eyes. We think for a split of a second what we want, and we take action. We blow it out with our Chi, with our energy. Now, if you took that moment, which could be quite powerful, and instead of making a wish, blowing out candles and never thinking about it again, what if you took that powerful collective gesture and you expanded it with intention? If you used it as a powerful practice to access your heart and see a roadmap to what you’re ready to create in your world. And that’s why not only  did I feel compelled to create a new awareness around the art of wishing and create intention setting jewelry that could capture the attention of people, because the paper, bead bracelet evolved into a jewelry line with a simplified process.

Alexa: But I wrote a book called Wish Work because, I believe that our work, our wishes, require attention. It’s not hard work. It’s playful work, but it’s transformative work because you begin to train yourself to cultivate a relationship with winks. And the winks are the connection and the language of the universe, or God or spirit or whatever you want to call it, the unknown that are actually encouraging us forward. When you cultivate a relationship with it, you actually begin working with winks and working with spirit to co-create because, and that’s when and you feel it, so if I’m at a dinner party and I’m sitting next to Jean and we share a conversation that’s actually Winks in motion, that’s that’s light play, and then you start to say, that’s cool, let’s talk about that. Let’s see how we can be better together. Let’s let’s cultivate this understanding of how we can show up now for ourselves, which then ripples out to everyone around us. And it’s not been easy for people to take “wishing” as a serious act of transformation. But the world is ready now. Yeah, the world is getting ready now because we’re seeing it’s up to us to not wonder what is it that’s going to change the world, or make my health, make me healthier or make me exercise more. Nope. It’s just you.

Jean : And and that’s what you and I were talking about at, you know, when we when we met. And I love that you liken it to the genie in the bottle, you say, yeah, you know, it’s not rubbing and waiting for the genie to, to grant you your wish. You are the genie.

Alexa: You are the genie. You are. Exactly. So what’s happened? You’re catching me at this intersection. I think I told you this, Jean,  where, you know, I was a teacher and I was my Alexa fisher.com world was really about public speaking and confidence building and classes and workshops and coaching and and then I created Wish Beads. And, you know, I’m really, you know, a lean operation. It looks like it’s a very big company, but it’s, you know, really me. And so I really shifted my energy over there. But it’s, it’s products… it’s a different, it’s a different deal, you know. And we had a lot of big success right out of the gate. And it became a different thing. And I let the teaching world still be over here..doing its thing, and just recently I have merged the two worlds in this interplay where I did create a free training program called You Are the Genie, and it is this idea of waking people up that they’re the one that they’ve been waiting for. They’re the one that they’ve been looking for. They’re the ones that can unlock their own magic by deciding you want to, by connecting with your heart, by taking action…the rubbing that, you’re the genie, you’re the lamp, you’re the one rubbing the lamp, you’re all of it. And when we can do it in a playful and light way, it’s just, you just see that it’s possible and it’s not bypassing pain at all. It’s just we have to upgrade the language and turn on the volume to love and commitment. Love and commitment and really have a hard look at the things in the world which are socially acceptable but are not helping. Write and say, okay, you know, if you want to wake up every day and use substances to help you get through the day at a certain point, that is just not going to help you anymore. So is there a possibility to tap into some other tools for you to see life with clarity and love, and get the support that you need to actually move you in a direction –if you find yourself in a toxic conversation, is there a way to be that voice that says, okay, is there another way that we can look at this? Everyone’s so trained to talk about the worst case scenario. What about the best case scenario?

Alison: Right.  Can I ask? I think what you’re saying is so powerful in terms of what’s powerful across the board, but it really resonates with me about, uh, self awareness or self motivation. But let’s say, your wish has to do with someone who’s ill or someone who’s facing a trauma. Like, right now, I feel like so many people are emotionally tired or spent or vulnerable. And what if your wish is something to do with that? Can you can you explain– sort of– because that feels a little bit different to me than sort of, I can do it thing… Do you know what I mean?

Alexa: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that we, especially as women, want to make other people’s wishes come true. Yeah. Um, especially as parents, we want to make our kids wishes come true. Um, I believe that your responsibility is to make your own wishes come true. And that doesn’t take anything away from sending love and light to people who need it. When we do it at the expense of ourselves, it’s the classic thing in the airplane. You have to put your mask on first or you’re good to no know one. And when we live in a and we deny ourselves the rest that we need, the care that we need, the love that we need, when we ride ourselves in the never enoughness of of it all, which has been programmed into, into many of us, we deny ourselves the ability to fill up our own heart and our own cups. And that’s really where the power is, because that’s where your fuel is. And I have watched people navigate through really intense challenges. Um, and when they when they leaned on love as a source of healing, their results were actually very, very good. Yeah. When they leaned on fear, um, as and looked for others to reinforce and validate their fear, it was just a harder journey. And so it is, there are parts of there are situations in which, um, I can look from a distance and intentionally send love.

Alexa: And I do it as a practice. And so in a way, that’s a wish. And I do have a wish for the world. I do have wishes for all kinds of things, but what I can take action on is the wish that’s inside of me… And sometimes I use my wishes because it’s never about the thing, it’s about the feeling. So when I guide people, the first step of my the way that I lead people through wishing is to go through a guided visualization. And in this moment you are seeing a moments coming from your heart, the light of your heart, where your wishes already come true. You’re living it, you’re feeling it, you’re seeing it… you’re activating your senses. You’re seeing something in the distance, and and if someone is not visual, sometimes it’s just in a feeling, they don’t see it. But afterwards, what’s happening,  you’re almost getting a pin in the map of the destiny of where you want to go. It’s a pin. And it’s filled with so many clues, so many clues. And when you come back and you begin to write it down, you’re you’re bringing it from the ether like a dream and you’re anchoring it in reality. Because much like a dream, you can forget about it. You know, you wake up in the morning, you’re like, I had the craziest dream. And you literally, like, four minutes later, can’t even recall anything, right? So with a wish, a powerful part is to write it down.

Alexa: Now, whether you’re putting it in a journal or you’re tucking it inside your wish beads, it is giving it a reality. Now, from that, from that vision, there are these clues that I talk about, and it’s not about seeing it and then feeling bad because you don’t have it yet. Whether you saw yourself, you know, on a vacation in Hawaii or you saw yourself out in nature in lavender fields and you’re like, oh no, I don’t live anywhere near lavender fields. No, you’re using those clues to say, wow, something in lavender my body needs how can I bring that to me right now? Inevitably the people who come back, and I do wish circles, and after the visualization, they literally look like they’ve taken a vacation because their nervous system, just with the power of their imagination, has created a totally different reality that now lives inside their nervous system. But then you can you can mine the vision itself for these clues, so that may look like in the case of the lavender fields, using lavender essential oil. Um, you know, it may be I invite people to look at what they’re wearing. What’s so funny in my visualizations, i’m always wearing a skirt, in real life, I never wear skirts, so what does that mean?

Alison: Yeah.

Alexa: What does that mean? I’m not projecting something…. You know we can have conscious wishes too, but I’m just talking about this accessing other aspects of our heart that we didn’t know that I want, I wanted. And so part of me taking these zoom exercise classes is for me to explore different aspects of my body and my expression. It’s related to the skirt.

Alison: Yeah.

Alexa: So it’s just curiosity, you know? And so when you get to that place also, it gives you more energy. Where do you take that energy, you use it back to the commitment part of like, what is it that you want to do? and If you’re feeling better, you’re probably going to go do it right?

Jean : That is so true.

Alison: That’s great.

Alexa: It’s so simple.. We don’t want to believe it. We think, no, I have to go to India and go find a guru. Nope. You’re the guru.

Alison: Right.

Alexa: I mean, go to India if you want to, but you’re the guru. You’re the one you’ve been waiting for. But the consciousness is ready to shed all of the weight of the divisiveness, the heaviness. We’re in a different place. And there are more people reacting to the election, uh, because we’re recording this right after the election, that I’m amazed how many people that I’ve talked to, that are like, you know, I’m not going to watch the news for a while. I’m going to step back. I said, wow, yes, yes, step back. Let’s get together and dance a little bit, shall we? Let’s let’s take the, let’s take the light and the love and put it back into the world. Let’s have a real beat.

Alison: Yeah. Yeah. And my father was a Pulitzer Prize winning reporter, and I just, you know, I just said, I’m not going to watch the news. I am just going to… I’m taking a pottery class, I’ve never done. I’m taking tap lessons. I’m doing… I am just, yes, going to do anything that just seems like fun.

Alexa: And look at you. So look at you. You give yourself permission to embody joy.. So don’t you think that’s how you change the world?

Alison: Yes, I totally….

Alexa: Pottery…. Tap dancing?

Alison: Yes.

Alexa: Smiling.

Alison: Yes.

Alexa: Podcasting?

Jean : Yes.

Alexa: Change the world.

Alison: You got me out of my seat. I’m out… I’m up, I’m there, I’m doing it. Yeah.

Jean : Cause that’s what you know…That’s the gift… Why we came here is to give our joy and..

Alexa: To give our joy, yeah. And there is a there is a time for processing pain– absolutely, absolutely. Of course there is. And yet I have watched people go through some of the, you know, terribly traumatic, difficult things. And their heart has grown in size. They have grown because of it. So this is not about not feeling bad, or not processing, it is about really tapping into the power of heart. And may we all come home to our hearts so that we can have the creative solutions for climate, for peace, for, you know, for for nations coming together, for leadership. We need a whole new generation of leaders. So they’re around here right now. They’re they’re on the couch reading books right now. They’re out there somewhere. And we need to fuel them with love so that they can be the leaders that are going to bring a different kind of consciousness to the very, very real problems that are in the world. And so I’m done with thinking that pottery and tap dancing is frivolous. No it isn’t . That is the revolution, right?

Jean : I just got chills as you said that. And and the same for wishing like… Yeah, yeah, thank goodness Alexa, you didn’t think, oh, that is so stupid a wish..

Alison: A wish bead.

Jean : how ever do we do that?

Alison: You do that once a year… Once a year.

Jean : It’s so dumb…so frivious.

Alexa: Yeah. And believe me, people thought that. Believe me, people did.  Absolutely. Absolutely. And yet and yet, you know, I attribute my time as an actress because really, the business of being a professional actor or actress is you get rejected all the time. It’s part of if you’re lucky, because if you’re getting rejected all the time, it means you’re going on a ton of auditions. So lucky you and I remember building up this sense of like, next. Like the resiliency of putting yourself out there, being judged by what you look like, what you I mean, you cannot imagine the shenanigans that happened in my time as an actress full like unacceptable shenanigans. And and I’m grateful for it because when you’re in any kind of entrepreneur, and I’m sure you all have felt it in your lives when you put yourself out there and you’re like, yeah, I’m taking tap dancing, you know? And maybe people think it’s cool, but maybe there’s some people who are like, who do you think you are taking tap dancing? Probably not any of your friends, but I’m just using it as an example.

Alison:  yeah.

Alexa: We want to protect our hearts and we’re getting into a place where we’re like, you know what, I don’t care, and as a 52 year old woman now, the best part of getting older, and I can’t even imagine how I’m going to be when I’m 62 or 70 2 or 82. But when I entered my 50s, I found a freaking whole new level of freedom that the just, like, fantastic. And I get to I got to redefine the things that were my priorities and let shed some of those layers of caring. And I do attribute it to a lot of the, um, there’s the things that I’ve gone through and that I’ve faced and still did it anyway. Yeah, I did it anyway…You know?

Alison: I think it’s really interesting that people say, oh, pain or sorrow is really the way to growth. I agree with that. But I also agree that laughing and hugging and, um, I don’t know, eating a good meal with people you love is also a way to grow. I don’t think it’s like one or the other. And I think sometimes like for me, I totally agree, the older I have gotten, I’ll talk to any… Like I’ll walk up to people and be like, you are so pretty. You are so you have a light in you, you and people are always like, really? Thank you. And I said, yeah, you just right. Thanks. I’m so glad we met. Like and my kids are all like, oh come on, keep walking, mom. You know, and but it’s very… I totally agree. I’ve given up all, I’m me, i’m happy to be me, you know…. Yeah. And this is it. So.

Alexa: Yeah. And you can take that energy, that light, that joy, and also find the causes that spark your heart and put your energy there. And if you do it through love, that’s a far more powerful fuel for transformation than bitterness and despair and doom and gloom. It’s energy. And when you have your wishes, that spark of light, that candle and you have one, and then you have another one and you have another one, and you have another one, and then suddenly you light up the world. Yeah, that’s how it goes. That’s just how it that’s how it works. So I, I find that this post-election time is fascinating. Yeah. And,I think that we are evolving. There’s probably a cosmic thing that’s happening too, that makes a different type of energy more available. And I am here for all of it. You are all here for all of it. And maybe because we’ve been in the soup of this conversation prior, you know, for a while now, as I imagine both of you have been, that we actually have, I would say, a responsibility to to carry that light forward if it’s new for people. Yeah. And say, come on, come and play. Let’s hang out. Let’s, let’s let’s play. Yeah.

Alison:  You’re fantastic.

Alexa: I think you’re fantastic.

Jean : That’s why I was like let’s hang out in real life.

Alexa: Oh my God, it was so much energy.

Alison:  She was a ball of energy and joy, right?

Jean : She is. She just exudes, I think she exudes life.. like life force, Chi, Joy.

Alison: Very energetic. And, um, I very patient with all our, um, technical, technical problems. Yeah.

Jean : And she gets it.

Alison: She gets it, yeah. You know, and I just felt that she had so much, um, like, she just wanted you to feel, you got it. You can do it.

Jean : You are not lacking anything. And the wish within you is your desire, is your is linked to fulfilling your soul’s purpose. And so to tap into your inner light.,And and that’s where the power comes to to bring this desire, this wish into fruition.

Alison: Right. And I like the idea that it’s not a pleading a oh, like, it’s just sort of like, give it to me.

Jean : Not a beseeching. Right?

Alison: Yeah, right. I really just I enjoyed her so much. What would you, do you have specific wishes. Like do you have things that on your birthdays and things you wish for?

Jean : Um, I usually just, I usually wish for my family, well-being, health, wholeness, joy, you know? Yeah.

Alison: Yeah, I’m very similar. And also just on a, on a I sometimes just say like, let the world find healing. Let the world let the world find some sort of healing and contentment and peace. You know, seeing each other as each other. Yeah. You know.

Jean : Yeah…That’s beautiful, very lovely.

Alison: What a great time. Thank you so much for listening. And we hope that now you’re thinking of your wishes, and if you’re if you’re near a birthday, think of something good…start now.

Jean : And I have to say, she offers so many wonderful resources on her website. So please check her out. She’s amazing.

Alison: Yeah she is. Have a great day.

Jean : Bye.

Alison: Bye.