The Podcast
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Podcast Episode 64: Danny Miller
The wonderful Danny Miller is the author of the best-selling, award winning books, Losing Control, Finding Serenity and The Gifts of Acceptance. He speaks with Jean and Alison about his newest book The Way of the Wave- Nature’s Model for Navigating Life’s Current. He is also an artist, poet, and professional real estate investor with a passion for tennis.
Learn more at DanielaMiller.com
Transcript
Alison: Click click click. We’re like waiting.
Jean: And we’re off and running. There we are.
Alison: How are you?
Jean: I’m great. I love seeing you.
Alison: I love seeing you. And we’ve both been a little busy.
Jean: We have been. Yeah. But you are redoing your home.
Alison: Yeah, I’m redoing bits and pieces of my home to make sure that, um, it stays lovely.
Jean: Well, it is lovely. And what you’re doing is, is some extra zhuzhing. And it looks beautiful, Alison I love what you’re doing.
Alison: Thank you. I think homes are so important.
Jean: Yeah.
Alison: Because, uh, you know, you want to feel cozy.
Jean: And you want to come home to something that, you know,
Alison: Makes you feel happy, right… Even if it’s just little changes.
Jean: Yes.
Alison: And speaking of happy ……
Jean: And changes,
Alison: ..Right. I really enjoy this man. Um, Danny Miller. And I know him because I have acted, actually, and am friends with his wife because we were both at the same theater company.
Jean: Right. I remember going to her one woman show, which was very powerful.
Alison: Oh my gosh, he talks about it in this book… I love her and she’s such a wonderful person. Just like him.
Jean: Yes. So Danny Miller has authored three wonderful books. Um, “The Gifts of Acceptance”, “Losing Control, Finding Serenity”, and “The Way of the Wave”, which is what we’re going to talk to him about this afternoon.
Alison: Yeah. And he really he’s very comforting because he allows you to feel your feelings and gives you options.
Jean: Yes. And he also really exposes his own struggles and, um, brings so much wisdom to to what he went through after after great reflection over his life. And it shows you that, you know, you can take whatever it is going on in your life and make it something that can transform your thinking, transform your consciousness..
Alison: And, scene– that was excellent. That’s exactly right, that was excellent.
Jean: Well thank you, Alison, it’s hanging out with you.
Alison: Oh no. I can only tell you about tiles and flooring. That’s all I’m good for. Um, but here he is, Dan Miller. Well, Danny. Danny miller.
Danny: Hello.
Alison: Oh,HI!
Danny: Hi. How you doing?
Alison: Great.
Jean: Okay, well, Danny, you have authored another beautiful transformational book called “The Way of the Wave. And congratulations.
Danny: Thank you so much. Thank you, I appreciate that.
Alison: Reading it was such a pleasure because I, um, I see so much of you in it. Not not because, uh, we know each other a little, but because you’re so vulnerable in it and you really express, uh, things that you’ve gone through. How was that for you? Like, was that how was that to be that vulnerable?
Danny: It was a decision I made. I, I intended it and wanted it to be a more personal book. Um, and so I did make the decision that I’m going to share, um, my struggles, uh, the challenges that I’ve had, um. The shortcomings and how I managed to improve upon those or reduce those shortcomings. And so I did use mainly my personal stories, whereas in the other books, uh, I would interview and talk to people about their stories and maybe 1 or 2 of mine. So I wanted this to be a personal book. Uh, I intended it to be, uh, short chapters. I didn’t want them to be extensive chapters. And I looked at it sort of like, uh, more of a guide, uh, and more more from the intention that this is what’s worked for me. Maybe it can work for you. You know, I, I feel that I’m sort of a typical, normal person. And I made that assumption that there’s others like me that struggle with the same issues, their fears, their anxieties, things like that. So that’s why at the end of each chapter, I have some prompts, uh, that include a few prompts. So the idea is that people can, um, look at their own lives from the perspective of what I’ve shared in the chapters, and see if it applies to them or how it may apply to them.
Danny: So that was the idea of the book. And, uh, I am very happy about it. It’s, uh, there was a journey that started almost 40 years ago with this book. Um, after I had undergone a five year period of some pretty traumatic events. Um, and I went to the beach one day and just started looking at the waves. Uh, just to get away and find some peace. And it was that day. And seeing the waves that I just instinctively, intuitively connected with them, that this could be the keys for my healing, because I really needed a lot of healing. And that was the beginning, uh, of a book. I did some writings, and the book was called, “The Wave” and and during Covid, you know, we’re moving boxes to storage and we have all this time on our hands. Uh, I came across 15 chapters of the book that, uh, I wrote in the late 1980s, and I thought, wow, I couldn’t complete it then because I didn’t know enough about it. I felt and understood it, but it sharing it, explaining it, articulating it, uh, was one thing, and I don’t think I had enough life experiences. So, uh, during Covid, I started writing and it just sort of flowed and came together and, uh, it was just a great joy in doing it.
Alison: That’s fantastic.
Jean: It is and and it’s so clever to use a body surfer.
Alison: Yeah.
Jean: The metaphor of the wave, the ocean, the body surfer to address all these human tendencies that that we all go through. And and I just want to say, Danny, I and I think Alison was alluding to this, your vulnerability, to really share that with your audience, because that gave us like gave me permission to say, yeah, I do that too. I do that too.
Danny: yeah,
Jean: Uh, you know, sometimes, well my mother used to say, and it’s a quote, you know, you see the plank in someone’s..NO, it’s, “You see the speck in someone’s eye, but you don’t see the plank in your own eye.” And I’m thinking that when I was reading your book, I’m like, yep, I’ve gone through that.
Alison: And I love that you, um, the controlling Danny I could relate to so much. And I think the most interesting part was the controlling of people you love– thinking you’re helping. Could you talk a little bit about that?
Danny: Sure… As I shared in the book, is I was a major controller, uh, in so many ways, not only work, but also also at home. It was like with my son, i was father knows best and didn’t hesitate to let him know –until he got older and got a little dismissive of that. Right? Um, but the idea behind the control is, first of all, there’s there’s a shortage of humility. There’s a feeling that, um, I know what’s best for others or I know what they should do, and while sometimes that may be true, but most, most of the time it’s not okay because I’m not them. And so there’s I say there’s there’s a lack of humility. And I’ve learned this so many times that I don’t often know what’s best for me. So who am I to share that with others? Right. But controllers tend to do that because they they have expectations and they want people to do certain things, especially their loved ones, their family. Um, and, you know, and as I’ve analyzed it myself, you know, you can say, well, it’s because I’m being benevolent, because I want what’s best for them. But I don’t, you know, if I really looked at it honestly, and that’s what I try to do. It’s mainly because I want what’s best for me. Yeah. See, and that’s why if I expect someone to do certain things a certain way is because I’m going to like that better. I’m going to feel better about that. Right. So, um, giving up control, letting go of control. And that’s why, you know, the body surfing and the waves. The waves are in control, not us. I used to body surf. You learn that right away. They are in control. And. Well, the best thing we can try to do is align with them. You know, and that’s why I get into the idea and the concept of acceptance.
Alison: Yeah.
Danny: We need to accept those waves as they are if we’re going to be able to align and flow with them in any meaningful way. So the whole idea of the wave in a, in a very over essence is when you let go of control, it releases the currents, the life currents in this case. And when we accept them, we can accept their the reality and try to align with the ones that are best for us, or to make the choices that are best for us under those circumstances. So we got to, in a way, let go but we also have to accept both of those things.
Alison: Or how are they.. How letting go of your own control and accepting what is in control or or somebody else? Is that what you mean? Like, it’s interesting that you’re seeing them as two separate things, I like that.
Danny: I’m not quite. Can you say that again?
Alison: You’re saying, you’re saying, “letting go” and I always equated “letting go” as the same thing as “acceptance.”
Danny: Oh, okay.
Alison: Do you know, and I think it’s interesting that you’re showing me an option that maybe it’s two separate things.
Danny: I think so, in other words, I look at acceptance as the antidote for control. When we’re accepting people as they are things they are, we don’t need to try to control them. So in that sense, the more accepting we are, the less controlling we are. They’re almost like two sides of the same coin. And what interferes with that quite a bit, or what I refer to in the book or the wave obstacles. Right, so the idea is, is I was sitting watching the waves, i said, yeah, I want to go with the flow, you know, and but how do you do that? You know, and I didn’t know, you know, you always hear about it. And so that was really part of the journey is, is, uh, what can, um, get me on the flow and maintain the flow longer than what I normally could? And to that, it comes into the idea not only letting go of control. Um, I have to reduce my expectations and my judgments. Because when when I’m judging others or expecting too much of others, my focus is on them and not on me, you know? And the whole thing to me is I’ve looked at expectations, is there’s a perceived need, i think that I’m looking to others to fulfill a need of mine. And look, only I, I truly can, can fulfill my own needs. Someone can support me and maybe love me. Uh, but it’s up to me, you know, to fulfill my needs in any really true, meaningful way, you know? So those are some of the obstacles I have other, you know, others, you know, fear and anger and limited thinking. That’s why I call the obstacles there.
Alison: Wonderful chapter. That was that was a great part of the book. Yeah.
Jean: I mean, we could spend all afternoon just talking about.
Danny: Yeah.
Jean: Breaking down each one of them. And, um, I think Alison and I wanted to touch upon one that spoke to her.
Danny: Okay.
Jean: And while I’m speaking, I’ll just say the one about…well They’re were all so great, Danny, but when you talk about the lull wave, you know, I thought that was so interesting for me because I have a couple of friends that are going through a time in their life where not much is happening.
Danny: Yes.
Jean: and and what do you do with that time? So can you talk about.
Danny: Sure. Because I as I share in the book, after the publication of,.. The Gifts of Acceptance, there was all that lead up and all the excitement. I had a lull, you know, or you it happens often with something that we’re intensely involved with, you know. And then it ends or eases it up, and then what then? And, uh, at first, you know, I included under the obstacles. Okay. But it’s not really necessary. An obstacle, I don’t think. Uh, it could be as much an enhancer and obviously a lot of lulls during Covid and things like that, and I like, like what you just shared. Um, I had a friend not long ago, he just retired from a very, uh, active career, uh, environmental world and for worked for the state of California in which he was going everywhere doing everything. And then he retired. And so he was the first time we got together, um, with our wives as well, he was sharing, you know, he’s just feeling this discomfort, you know, and he’s it’s just sort of reanalyze, I think. And, I said, Stanley, you’re having a low and he said, what’s that?, first of all, it’s normal. It’s normal. Everybody has it. It’s part of life. So try to embrace that and accept that, you know, and the equation is sort of like if, if, uh, if surfers are out surfing and all of a sudden there’s no waves, you know, what do they do? Right.
Danny: Uh, a lot of them go home and wait for another day. You know, and so, uh, I think if we look at lulls as a means of, uh, a time when we can explore, learn more about ourselves, uh, try new, new things, maybe that we didn’t try or have the time for before. Um, and just trust. And that’s one of the big enhancers I talk about is trusting the flow, uh, which I’m learning to apply more and more. It’s becoming bigger and bigger. Acceptance is big, but trust goes right along with that is. So when I’m in a low, I just will trust that things are going to be okay. You know? Trust trust is maybe I’m going to wait around, wait in the water a little bit and wait for new currents to come. But that’s okay. That’s just part of life. Um, not that it’s not, uh, that there’s not discomfort, but it reduces that, when you put it in that perspective and that there’s nothing wrong with this. I don’t know if you ever, I used to get into this thing, is that I’m being unproductive…That feeling of being unproductive is. What is that exactly? I mean, in the sense that we have to be productive all the time? Right. And so it’s sort of with that idea that it’s okay to be unproductive for a while. Yeah. Okay.
Jean: My my beloved late husband, Alex, used to have a very hard time when the show was on hiatus. Hiatus?
Danny: Yeah, right.
Jean: He would come into the kitchen and he’d say, oh, Jeannie, I feel like I’m just “fumping” around.
Danny: Right.
Jean: Like, I’m not being productive. And we’re so geared to to be to do do do and.
Danny: Yes.
Jean: Yeah. It’s great to take these times and just Be a little bit.
Danny: Right
Alison: There’s a certain amount of guilt with being unproductive for me.
Danny: A guilt. Yeah.
Alison: You know, I feel like you should do something, organize something, clean something. If you’re not auditioning…do something.. Do you know, it’s a guilty feeling?
Danny: You know what’s a good a good thing to do during those times is to do something. Well, you’re an actress, so do something creative. Doesn’t have to be acting right. But, um, you know, I’ve painted a lot, but more in the past since I started writing. So, uh, during Covid, I started painting again, you know, and so it just being in that creative realm, whatever it might be, writing, painting, performing, um, and also just being in nature more, you know, nature is so healing to me, you know. So, um.
Alison: My favorite thing that you talked about, about painting is when you said you kept turning the canvas, keep painting. And I was like, that’s fantastic, because it almost made me want to try to paint and do that.
Danny: You should. yeah, you know it’s so interesting when you and that one painting you do it. You see things from a totally different perspective, right? It’s like looking at it from sideways or upside down and so on that one painting, I kept doing it, and then all of a sudden it was like, you know, I think it’s done. And that’s always a challenge when to know when to stop. Yeah. You know, uh, when I painted more, I would so often over paint, you know, and my wife would stay, stop. Don’t go back. It’s good like it is. I’ve improved, I’ve improved. But that’s still a tendency. But I’m much more aware of it now.
Alison: And I wanted to talk with you about boundaries.
Danny: Yes.
Alison: Because I think people, women that we talk to, have a hard time setting up boundaries that feel comfortable to them. Could you just talk about your view of boundaries?
Danny: Yes, yes. The way I look at boundaries, first of all, I guess we all need to set certain boundaries, right? Okay. And I look at that as sort of like, uh, when you have body surfers or surfers that are….and it’s a busy day out in the water. They’re going to set some boundaries so they’re not going to collide with each other or their waves are not going to come together. And I think that’s the same with with people, you know. And it’s it’s harder I think for and maybe it’s women are more so is maybe women are more giving in in general, I’m just generalization, you know, uh, especially and for me, to set boundaries, there’s a couple of ways of doing it, and one way I just don’t like and I’ve had this happen – is I’m going to set a boundary. People express it, I’m going to set a boundary with you or with that. And I don’t think that’s the way to do it. It’s a little harsh and it can be a little divisive, but the way I look at it is – if I express my needs or desires or wishes in a thoughtful, clear manner, I am letting people know in a way that this is my boundary, right? So if whatever they may be asking me to do possibly or whatever they may be doing, if I share my needs or express my needs, I think it’s a kinder, gentler way of setting the boundaries. And I think a lot of us, and myself included, sometimes we’re afraid to express those needs. Or maybe we, like you say, maybe you feel guilty saying something like that, you know? But I really think it’s more that when we do that for ourselves, we’re also letting others know, because a lot of times people don’t know that there may be intrusive or invading our currents or our ways, uh, so we let them know. But, you know, through a communication, um, if they keep doing it, which some people will, they’re overly persistent. Then we have some choices. You know, we can remove ourselves literally or physically, you know, uh, or express our dislike or as I say in the book, it in the challenging difficulties, difficult cases, we can choose to swim in other waters. Right? Again, using the wave, we can go surfing somewhere else.
Alison: Right. We talked to so many women and people that, um, are torn between the caretaking and being totally available and boundaries, and they’re they that those two things. Do you agree that have become very mixed?
Danny: Yes.
Alison: I thought that your book was really great in sort of you, approach one thing and you’re very clear about options to help you through it. Yeah. You know, because I think we’re living in a very, um, it’s a challenging time.
Danny: Yes, yes. Especially now. Yeah. Especially now.
Jean: Talk about riding the waves. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I think women that have been mothers, now when you come into the empty nest now, you’re just finding out what your needs are.. Like you really, you just kind of are just taking care, taking care, and then all of a sudden, you get into an age where you can focus more on yourself.
Danny: Yes.
Jean: And you’re like, oh, you know what? I don’t think I enjoy that and I’m going to, you know, it’s like a whole new way of being expressing your boundaries. But something I love Danny, which made me feel good about the whole boundary thing is you said it’s a win win for both people.
Danny: I think so. I think I think it can be. I think it can lead to a deeper relationship or connection with the person. I really do. And a more authentic truth basis where each feels okay to express their views on things. You know, and it’s sort of interesting as you were sharing. There’s a little bit especially, uh, for women and being mothers, is that… Well fathers too, is the idea of enabling, you know, when we enable our, our children by, in a way, giving too much or doing too much for them, or we can be actually by doing that, taking away, you know, with their own life journey, experiences, um, development, independence and things like that. So in a way, when we’re doing that, we’re we’re invading their currents. It’s just sort of sort of the opposite. Right. But we do it. Why do we do it? I think mostly because of fear. You know, a lot of it’s because of fear. We’re fearful, uh, for them. And, uh, will it be okay? How will they be? Etcetera, cetera, et cetera. And so a lot of it is, is processing our own fears. Right?
Alison: Right, Very much. Danny, when you write these type of books, does it put pressure on you to be really good?
Danny: Pressure?
Alison: Yeah.
Jean: Great question.
Danny: No, um, I, I mean, I would obviously like it to be good, but I don’t think of it in that terms…
Alison: I mean for like you to be good. Like like you write this book that is so great, and your book about acceptance, does it put pressure on you?
Danny: Oh I see. To live it.
Alison: Yeah. To to always be living it. And what happens when you don’t?
Danny: Good question. Um. It doesn’t put pressure on me. Um, because I’m not holding myself out as an expert, and I don’t try to, but what it does, uh, is I can look to my own writings and try to live by that. Okay. So they’re they’re tools. Like, if I’m going through a difficult or challenging time, I might, might say, okay, well, what would I say in my book about that? Right. So I they become my own self-help guides. And I actually start by writing them in that with that feeling or that sense, so that I am exploring, uh, as I’m writing and trying to live as I’m writing and seeing how it works and what maybe doesn’t work. So they’re, um, they’re just an ongoing continuing means for me to live, I guess, a more peaceful, helpful and joyful life.
Alison: Yeah.
Danny: And seems to be working. Yeah. Uh, I feel I feel very blessed. I feel very, very blessed. And, uh. Yeah. So I’m glad that, i’m glad that the books, um, thus far have been, you know, nicely received and resonates… And I’m so happy that that’s resonated with the two of you as well, of course.
Jean: It really has. Can you share with us , well we know because we read the book, but can you share with our listeners your morning practice?
Danny: Sure. My my morning process, um, is upon out of bed. I get on my on my knees and say the serenity prayer. Um. Before breakfast or go in the next room and before eating, I go outside and I have this beautiful Olive tree, and I will put my arms up and say the serenity, Serenity Prayer again. And I will then offer and ask for guidance. Whatever I may be dealing with, whether you want to say God or Higher Power or nature…. Uh, I ask to be receptive to the guidance that may come my way. I may not know what it is, but I want to be available and accessible. So I start my day from a very peaceful place every day. And, you know, things can happen during the day, obviously, when I, when I when that happens, when I remember to unfortunately, I work at home, I just go up my olive trees right out there. I can just go out there again, uh,or go or take a walk or whatever it is. And when I’m saying, the Serenity prayer, what I’ve learned is to think about it more specifically. Like whatever things I may be dealing with, God grant me the serenity to accept what I can and what I can’t accept, uh, what’s happening right now. Right. And the courage to change the things I can. So that in a way, what that sort of means is to acknowledge the areas where I’m powerless over, that I can’t meaningfully change, like a lot of what’s going on now.
Alison: Yes.
Danny: But courage to change the things I can, is like telling me what power do I have within that context to make things better for myself, hopefully for others, and think about those more specific things, you know, and the wisdom to know the difference is sort of like sometimes I don’t know the difference. Sometimes I don’t know whether I can have any influence. So maybe I’ll try it a little bit. But if I, if I sense a resistance, then I know that I’m overreaching. Then I have to go more into acceptance and to acknowledge I’m powerless over this. So that’s just my daily prayer, my most significant prayer that’s really helped me a lot.
Alison: That’s so wonderful. And I wanted to, um, talk about the chapter The Great Divide.
Danny: Okay.
Alison: Because we are in a time right now that feels that discourse has stopped between people with differing ideas or beliefs.
Danny: Yes.
Alison: And, um, I wanted to, uh, enlighten our listeners to like what you’re feeling about that. And what you’re thinking is, I thought that chapter was fantastic.
Danny: Thank you, thank you. It’s sort of interesting. I wrote that chapter, believe it or not, the genesis of it five years ago.
Alison: Really?
Danny: Yeah, just a little bit before Covid, because I sensed it. Even then, the divide, the divisiveness, you know, and, uh, I didn’t know where to publish it or what to do with it. But then I started writing the book. I started thinking, okay, if the LA times is not going to publish it, I’m going to publish it in my book. And that’s what and that’s what was meant to be that way. Um, but anyways, getting to the subject is. There’s there’s several things I use the word acceptance conversations in a very broad thing that the idea is if we can have what I call acceptance conversations with “the other side”, you know, um, and what what do those entail, uh, so that we can have some kind of connection or some kind of understanding? You know, if you look at, you know, you hear the two different worlds or alternate universes and I’m, I have two circles, if those circles could just merge a little bit. So there’s a little overlap. It starts with trying to maybe get to there. So how does that happen?.. It could be also with uh family members that are fallen, fallen out or friends or whatever, right? It doesn’t have to be the whole nation or universe.
Danny: Um, but one of the, one of the keys, I think in these conversations is we need to, uh, accept others as they are and or their views as they are. That doesn’t mean I agree with them or condone them, right, I just need okay, that’s what they are. And that they are not necessarily trying to harm me or hurt me. That they are more than likely serving their own best interests, as we often do. When I can sort of look at it a little bit from that perspective, it can be less heated, less argumentative. So these conversations are not intended to convince or to win your point. Once you start doing that, it’s not going to go very far. It’s to try to find some common grounds about raising our children, taking care of our elder parents, um, um, what we enjoy in entertainment, food, sports so that we can begin to see what I call the humanness in the other. We need to try to see the humanness in the other. And then there are other parts as I write about it. Another one is, we need to be civil, you know, and not loud and argumentative.
Danny: But another part is try to, uh, get a conception of what fears might be behind the views. Uh, it’s been established and there’s books written on it, uh, that people are not going to change based on facts because, there’s so many different channels and universes of facts right now. So discussing the facts or they’re misreading the facts or misinterpreting is not going to carry us very far. It’s more on the emotional, Intuitive level. So and maybe the fear level, if we can sort of understand what fears lie behind their strong judgments, maybe we can talk and share about those. So, you know, those are some of the things and they’re they’re not always going to be productive. Some people may not want to have those conversations. Um, but there are what they call bridging organizations. And there’s a lot of them. And I’ve gotten involved a little bit with them. And that’s what what their aim is, is trying to find ways to bridge the divide by having these constructive conversations, you know, and it’s beginning. It’s sort of like what I say in the book, uh, Lao Tzu, A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. It’s either that or do nothing. Right?
Alison: Yeah, right.
Jean: And I think that feeling uncomfortable…. becoming Comfortable those uncomfortable conversations. Actually, they’re good in a way, good for our soul growth. Because no one likes to have these conversations that make you feel, oh, am I being judged, am I right? And to really look at look at our beliefs… You know, and have humility like you, you talk about, um, and yeah, you have so much wisdom in any one of these chapters.
Alison: I think that’s a perfect chapter to read before Thanksgiving dinner….You know, when you’re sitting down with your family, I’m going to, you know, and people, all different types…. I thought that chapter was great.
Jean: Yeah.
Danny: Well, thank you. I really appreciate that. Uh, it’s just so important. And, um, but thank you, I appreciate that. It’s, uh, there’s got to be some changes, you know? And, uh, hopefully the more that we can, uh, as I say, see the common ground, see the humanity in the other, it certainly will help, because when we don’t, you’re not going to have a conversation. You know, it’s not going to happen.
Alison: No exactly. Right… Exactly. And that’s where I think, unfortunately, we are at a lot of times, you know, where when you’re talking to somebody that maybe has a different idea or different beliefs, it goes from 0 to 60..it feels and I thought some of your tips were so great. And I was thinking about conversations I’ve had with relatives where I could have calmed down.
Danny: Yes. Right, right. Yeah.
Jean: And that was really a great, uh. I tried to make it more about me when I was reading your book. I didn’t want it to be like, see what you do… See, that’s what they do. And I really loved it because your book really let me focus on what I’m doing.
Danny: Wonderful.
Alison: And me which was great. And so it was a real gift.
Danny: Well thank you. I appreciate it.
Jean: I was focusing on you, Alison when was reading the book…hahah
Alison: She was picking on me. hahah
Jean: That’s right. hah
Jean: It’s so true… Those questions are so great at the end. And, um, it’s just a beautiful, well written, wise, humble meaning.
Danny: Oh, wonderful. You know, it’s sort of interesting, I had a a friend read a draft copy of the book, and when I met with him he says, well, that’s a wonderful, intimate memoir. And I said, what? …you know, I didn’t think of it as such. But he, you know, everybody can interpret it. But he, and what you say, like the vulnerable, and the intimate and, um, uncomfortable with intimacy. The more I can be intimate, I think it’s better. I feel, you know.
Alison: It’ll be great, like, for your great grandchildren to have that.
Danny: Thank you.
Alison: It’ll be fun for them to get to know you through these words. And I hope you find another box from 40 years ago with more writing in it….I would love that.
Danny: Thank you.
Alison: Danny, as we just wrap up, can you tell me what… our podcast is called InsideWink…
Danny: Right.
Alison: What do you think insidewink means thank you?
Danny: I thought about that. And for me, um, I think it’s telling myself not to be so serious. Like, lighten up, because I tend to be really serious. Too serious. I’m smiling a lot because I just enjoy our conversation, but my tendency is, is to be a little too serious so that, the insight wink says, come on, Danny, lighten up. So I mean,that’s sort of like winking to myself.
Danny: And it’s and it’s so true…there was something I read, that said, don’t take all this too seriously.
Danny: Yeah.
Jean: Don’t take everything so seriously where you lose your joy.
Alison: Yes.
Jean: because then you’ve really disconnected from… So i love that you say that.
Alison: But it’s so funny, Danny. Whenever I’ve seen you, you always strike me as such a like a happy sprite. Thank you. I never see you as serious. Like you’re just always seeing…
Danny: I think it’s because you are as well. I think maybe.
Alison: Maybe we’re just goofy together.
Danny: Yeah. Goofy? Yeah.
Alison: But, um, I think that’s… I think that’s great. Jean will ask my favorite question ever.
Danny: Okay.
Speaker1: Okay. Do you prefer cake? Pie or ice cream?
Danny: Ice cream. I’m an ice cream guy.
Jean: What flavor?
Danny: Um. I like different ones. I like pistachio, coffee.
Jean: We love pistachio.
Alison: You’re fancy. Most people like chocolate, you know. So.
Danny: No, I’m not a, I like chocolate, but not for some reason for ice cream… Not as much. I don’t know why.
Alison: Yeah. Yeah. Danny, it’s such a joy to talk to you and just to have this time with you.
Danny: I thank you. Same. Same here. Same here. You two are doing so great.
Jean: Thank you. Your book is wonderful. It’s it’s very meaningful. And and, um, thank you for taking the time to write it and share your heart.
Alison: And I just want to put a little pitchfork to Seguda’s show… that show is amazing. Is it called?
Danny: Tragic magic.
Alison: It’s it’s absolutely beautiful. So if you’re ever seeing that coming around again, please go see it because you and your wife are a powerhouse of….
Danny: Thank you. It’s a wonderful show. It really is. Yeah.
Alison: Yeah. Okay. Well, give her our love. And we send you our love.
Danny: Okay. Thank you. Be well. Stay well.
Jean: You too.
Alison: Bye bye.
Jean: Bye bye.
Jean: He is so great. What a lovely man. Yes, because he’s done… Look at you.
Alison: I’m just thinking about our interview. He’s so… I just felt very. It felt very cozy to me, and.
Jean: Yeah, well, we both have met him before, so that was nice. But there’s something really light and bright about Danny, and I think it’s because he’s done the inner work at looking at parts of himself that, you know, don’t really bring a lot of joy and love to others or himself.
Alison: Right. And the book seems surprisingly simple and light. And then as you keep reading it, you realize, oh, I’m really getting something. Like I read a couple of the segments to Brady and I thought, listen to this. And he’s like, oh, mom, that’s great. Like it’s it seems like, um, like light in a way, in the very beginning. And then all of a sudden you’re in it and you’re like, wow, this is very powerful stuff. I really I can relate to so much of this. Yeah.
Jean: I think for me, one of one of the great things is that wherever you are in your thinking process, this book will meet you there.
Alison: Yes. That’s great.
Jean: You know, whether you’re like a longtime student of Self-inquiry and self, you know, awareness or you’re just starting to go, why is my life so, so hard?
Alison: Yeah.
Jean: So wherever you are, it’s a beautiful book.
Alison: You’re you’re batting a million today with your with your things.
Jean: look at you with your great questions.
Alison: I got a good question because I thought, God the pressure I’m not going to, I’m not even going to be nice anymore. Too much pressure, right. Um, well thank you. We hope we hope you go out. And buy, “The way of the wave”, because it’s just it’s really fun. It’s really great.
Jean: It’s a beautiful book. Thank you. Danny. Thank you. And thank you, listeners.
Alison: And thank you, Jean.
Jean: And thank you Allison.
Alison: Okay, bye.
Podcast Episode 63: Julie Kramer
Julie was introduced to core shamanism in 2000, which enabled her to begin cultivating direct relationships with compassionate helping spirits using the practice of shamanic journeying. Julie is passionate about training committed practitioners as a way to contribute to the restoration of spiritual healing to its rightful place alongside Western and Eastern Medicine; Energy Medicine; psychiatry and psychotherapy; and hands-on healing. What distinguishes Julie’s orientation is her emphasis on spiritual healing as a catalyst for personal and collective evolution.
Learn more at juliemkramer.com
Transcript
Alison : Okay. Here we are.
Jean : Here we are. Back in my closet.
Alison : That’s right. I love it here. I’m going to live here. And you’re not even going to know, okay?
Jean : And you’re doing your home right now.
Alison : Yes. We’re redoing our home. A little bits and pieces of our house that needed to be done because our sink cracked in a hole. And who wants to live with that? Not me.
Jean : It’s going to be beautiful.
Alison : It’s going to be so lovely. And I realize, my child Em, was saying, mom, you’re veering towards cool colors and the house has warm colors. And I thought, I think Emma is correct. So that was a very interesting talk with that fantastic person. Um, but it’s been wonderful. And every day is a little like Christmas.
Jean : That’s great.
Alison : You’re like, oh look, a faucet came, you know? But it’s fun and it’s nice to it’s nice to even just like, you know, some of the stuff is just paint being done, which is fantastic.
Jean : And it’s a great time to, uh, spruce up your home. It’s springtime. There’s going to be a feeling of newness and beautiful colors, so I know it’s going to be gorgeous.
Alison : I can’t wait for you to see it all. So today…
Jean : Yeah.
Alison : I’m excited.
Jean : I am too. You know, we’ve never interviewed a shaman.
Alison : No.
Jean : Yes.
Alison : And I’m not. I personally am not fully aware, of until now when I was reading on it, what a shaman was? And, um, yeah, I think it’s going to be very interesting. Her name is Julie Kramer, and she is just she’s a shamanic healer.
Jean : She also teaches people how to become shamanic healers.
Alison : Right.
Jean : And, um, I thought she, like her wife, speaks, speaks so beautifully. Listening to her is really, um, beautiful. She’s got a gorgeous command of the English language, and she pronounces everything so beautifully. Well, actually, my husband Alex would have been very impressed with with how Julie speaks. But anyway….
Alison : I think we speak very much like that.
Jean : Yeah.
Alison : But aside from how wonderfully she sounds vocally, she’s very I think it’s going to be very, very interesting to speak to someone that that does this as, um, a calling.
Jean : Yeah. And here again, is that being a bridge between the physical world and the spirit world. So I’m so looking forward to this.
Alison : And so here’s Julie.
Julie: Then suddenly there you are. And it’s so delightful.
Alison : It’s so nice to meet you. I’m Allison.
Jean : And I’m Jean.
Julie: Lovely to meet you both. Thank you for inviting me to have this conversation with you today.
Alison : You are so interesting.
Julie: Oh.
Jean : I’ve read and listened about you for the past few days, and, um, I was really looking forward to meeting you, Julie. And, you know, I, I, I don’t know that much about shamanism. And, um, when I think of the word, I think of, um, like South American people from indigenous countries and healing like in that… And now I look at you and, and, um, and I think, wow, that’s so great that you embarked on this path and are teaching people how to become a shaman.
Julie: Thank you. And I think that would be a wonderful topic to explore. Not by any means to direct you, because of course, I understand that it needs to feel organic and alive for you, but simply to say that it’s a topic I’m more than happy to speak on, because I think there there is a common misapprehension, and people often appreciate hearing my perspective on that.
Alison : We would love.
Julie: Yeah.
Alison : Yeah, but what is what is a shaman and what is what is um, shamanic practices. And then specifically you’re, you’re a you’re a healer.
Julie: Yes. Oh. Are we actually starting our conversation?
Alison : Welcome to us.
Julie: Oh, I apologize. Normally there’s, you know, the lighting check and the sound check.
Alison : And we’re..
Jean : we’re Right out the gate and sort of like it fresh and very conversational, almost like we’re, well, we are girl, women friends having a fun conversation. That brings it down to…
Alison : I think you’re used to Tami– being like, you know, because it’s so she’s so wonderful. But for us, it’s just sort of like, hey, hi… You know, let’s do it…so…
Julie: wonderful.
Julie: Well, then why don’t I begin by answering the questions that you’ve posed. And so, Jean, first to acknowledge what you were saying a moment ago, yes… I think people do often associate shamans, shamanic practices, shamanic rituals, and so forth with indigenous peoples and communities, I think worldwide. And so oftentimes that’s a narrower perspective because in actual fact there are many more people practicing shamanism, including those lovely people. And what I would say about that, is that, thankfully, there are still lineages of shamans within indigenous contexts, within specific cultural contexts that remain intact. And how beautiful that that remains the case. May that continue to be the case. And interestingly, of course, many people in recent decades have studied shamans and shamanism within many of those different cultural contexts. And there are certain commonalities that have been found to be true. And therein lies I think the reason that you’re wondering about this, and perhaps the explanation for a person like me. So one of the commonalities that shamans worldwide share is being called by the spirit world. And interestingly, although there are still and may there continue to be indigenous shamans or shamans practicing within a specific cultural context, who perhaps also had living teachers, a grandmother or grandfather or aunt or uncle or mother or father or someone outside of their family, but within their community.
Speaker4: Interestingly, not all shamans currently or historically have had living teachers. And so what shamans actually all have in common universally, whether or not they ever had or will ever have a living teacher is being called by spirit, and that call comes from the spirits directly through a variety of means. And so this is how we often hear about people talking about shamanic initiations or even dark nights of the soul. So in other words, the call from spirit can come through messages, it can come through joyful synchronicities, and it can come through illnesses or diseases that can come through near-death experiences. It can come through trauma. And so I represent those folks out there who didn’t have a mother or father or grandmother or grandfather or community member who recognized my affinity for this spirit world as a young person, necessarily…. But I had, by way of a series of synchronicities, the opportunity to learn how to journey at a relatively young age in my 20s, and I met my helping spirit straight away, and that set me off on this course. And subsequently, I did have the great, good fortune of working with two living teachers, Sandra Ingerman and Betsy Bergstrom. So I’ve had a combination, but not since childhood. That all started to happen for me in my early adulthood.
Alison : That’s that’s beautiful. So for you, when you say a calling. Mhm. Um, can you, can you just tell me what that feels like? It sounds very exciting.
Julie: Well, I will say in my case it was quite subtle. It was at first such a personal sense of homecoming because when I first learned how to journey, which is the means by which I contact the helping spirit. So I talk about entering into natural trance states. So using drumming and rattling, I have my rattle right here. And what science has shown us is that when we expose ourselves to continuous percussion, so rattling or drumming as two examples, our brainwave activity changes and we enter into a natural trance state. So without needing to ingest anything, such as a mind altering substance, I can just pick up my rattle right now and enter into a trance state. So support my consciousness as it shifts from a beta state to an alpha state to a theta state, which is more of an expansive state. When we become more, I would say, perceptually aware. And by that what I mean is we’re perceiving the helping spirits from that state or in that state, but they’re with us all the time. And so it isn’t as though they suddenly appear when we’re in that state, but rather that we become aware of their presence, which we may not always be paying attention to in our day to day lives. And so when I first became introduced to journeying and met my helping spirits, there was such a personal sense of homecoming.
Julie: But it was not at all in my awareness or consciousness that this could become my career. The fact that I’ve made a career out of this has been a delightful surprise to me. That has been very organic over time. But if you had told the young Julie, the young 26 year old Julie, that now at the age of almost 52, I would be talking to the two of you about this work and teaching practitioners and teaching teachers, i would not have believed a word you said. So I think for me it’s been less dramatic. Oh. Pardon me, Jean, I think for me it’s been less dramatic, although certainly there are stories of people through illness, as I said, through trauma, through near-death experiences and so forth. I would say that part of my biographical experience, especially as a child, I think helped me hone my sensitivity and hone my compassion, and those things have helped me immensely in my role. But I wasn’t someone who had a lot of experiences with the spirit world. A lot of dramatic experiences with the spirit world. As a child, it was a little bit more quiet for me.
Alison : Lovely.
Jean : Yeah. That’s so beautiful. And Julie, do you notice, um, you call them your helping guides? I love that term. Can you tap into them? Like, if you’re at a store and you’re… And you’re thinking, oh, I need to get this person or or do you have to do a more ritualistic, um, quest for that or, you know, a process? Yeah.
Julie: Yes. Well, I.
Jean : And just sorry, Julie, and because it’s right on the tip. Have they changed over time? Are your helping guides the same ones that you tuned into early on? Early versus now?
Julie: If I may, I’ll start by answering that question. Some of them are the same as all that time ago. It was in 2000 that I first learned how to journey, and I immediately contacted my helping spirits. So there was an immediate sense of connection, belonging, homecoming, familiarity. I would say, of course, I, I feel in my cosmology I was meeting helping spirits with whom I’ve had affiliations over lifetimes. And so that sense of familiarity was predicated upon our shared history, and many of them have endured. So those I met initially, many of them still remain with me. I’ve met more subsequently, and they are long standing relationships that keep deepening, that keep unfolding, much like a marriage, much like a deep, beloved friendship. You continue to learn things about each other, and you continue to learn things about yourself in relationship with the other. And so I continued to discover things about my helping spirits. It feels as though there’s still an enormous amount to discover, even after, in some cases, 25 years of being in relationship with some of them. In a conscious way, in this lifetime as an adult.
Alison : It might be semantics, but our guardian angels guiding spirits.
Julie: Well, I was going to say I used these terms interchangeably helping spirits, helping guides, guardian angels, although they’re very well, maybe people who consider the term guardian angel to be specific to the presence of angelic beings. I would consider angelic beings to be helping spirits, but they’re their own category. They’re angelic beings. Um, but to me, they could all be included under the broad umbrella of Spirit guides or Spirit Helpers or compassionate helping spirits. I use all of those terms interchangeably, including guardian angels.
Alison : And is it when you say that you met your your your friendly guiding spirit early on? Is it like, um, is it an awareness? Is it do you hear a voice or is it a visual?
Julie: Um.
Alison : What is that? You know.
Julie: Yes. Of course. Yes. So when we rattle or drum and catalyze, if you will, or generate if you will, a trance state. As I mentioned before, our perception widens. So it’s an expanded state of consciousness. And what we become aware of are these subtleties. So I would say that we exist within a multidimensional reality, that reality is far more nuanced and mysterious than just the physical world. What we can see and touch and feel with our physical senses and those subtler pathways of perception open when we’re in a trance state, and then we are able, we begin, pardon me, to be able to perceive what lies in the invisible realms. So with another dimensions or spectrums of reality. And so in a way, this answers both of your questions. I can see you both on the screen and and feel you feel our heart connection and feel your warmth and openness to me and to this topic, and at the same time, with what I would describe as my subtle perceptions, i can perceive my helping spirit. So I have one who’s always to my left and one who’s always to my right, and one who’s always behind me. And I can feel them and see them with what I would describe as my inner sight, which we could also say is clairvoyance.
Julie: So being able to see clearly, clear seeing or clairvoyance in the dark, if you will, in the invisible realm. So for me, these realities are interpenetrating. So I’m here in my physical body, and my helping spirits are right next to me in their non-physical bodies, but they’re in their forms. And so I can see them. I can feel or sense them. I can hear them when I talk to them and they talk to me. So we dialogue. So it feels probably the simplest way of explaining it would be it feels telepathic, the actual communication, and that would be clairaudience. And so that’s when you’re hearing them speak to you. So it’s the subtle version of the auditory sense, just as clairvoyance is the subtle version of site. So each of the physical senses has that subtle correlate so we can journey into or send our awareness into these other dimensions of reality that have their own landscapes and their own resources, and that are rich and fascinating and endless. And that’s where the helping spirits reside, if you will. And then we can experience them, and they show themselves to us in their forms. And so angelic beings will have wings, and there are animal spirits who are helping spirits. So I have a bear who’s always right behind me, a very tall brown bear who’s always behind me as a protector for me.
Julie: And the two helping spirits. To my left and right are my former brother and father from another lifetime. And so they take those forms, although I would argue that those are costumes they put on for our benefit, just as these forms are the costumes that we’re wearing now. I think our spirits are beyond form and transcend and include all of the forms that we take in our different lifetimes. But in answer to your question, Jean, when I’m out in the world at the grocery store or whatever, I can simply turn my attention towards them and thus perceive them because they’re always there. And so it really depends on where my attention lies. But part of my practice and part of what I teach is what would it be like if we were in a continuous relationship with our helping spirits, if we were in continuous contact with them? So if I’m answering an email instead of the answer coming from just my mind, if you will, or even my heart to check in with the helping spirits and ask, how shall I respond to this? What’s needed here? What’s the message? What’s the response? What should my posture be? How can I support this person? So I involve my helping spirits in even small decisions throughout the day. I mean, maybe not to the extent that I’m saying. What kind of yogurt should I buy at the grocery store? But Tami and I did once ask my helping spirits about a movie recommendation, because we were trying to decide what movie to go to. And my one of my helping spirits said, what do I look like? Siskel and Ebert. So that was the last time I asked for a movie recommendation. But I do consult with them, and that’s part of what I teach, is what would it be like if we were in constant communication, constant connection? And when we are, we look out. I know you can’t see what I’m seeing, but I’m looking into my garden and I can see the ocean from here. I’m in Vancouver, British Columbia, and everything takes on this quality of aliveness because you’re beginning to experience the spirit that animates all of reality. And so everything starts to take on this quality of radiance and aliveness and intelligence and beauty. And then you walk through the world so differently. Other people begin to take on that luminosity as well. And so everything becomes so wakeful, and that’s a very different way of walking through the world.
Jean : Very much so. That’s so beautiful, julie.
Jean : Can can anyone learn to be a shaman?
Julie: I believe anyone can learn to be in relationship with their helping spirits. I believe literally anyone can. There is no special prerequisite or special gift you need to have. I think it’s wired into our DNA. Even if some of us come from ancestral lineages where there may no longer be intact lineages of shamans or healers or medicine people who work in partnership with the spirit world, all of our ancestors did. And so part of what’s been so beautiful for me has been to meet helping spirits who were my ancestors, who have taught me how they worked at the times when they lived. And of course, we can understand lots of different reasons why certain more esoteric practices might have needed to go underground or be hidden, or why certain lineages came to an end, and with them the wisdom and knowledge that was contained within that lineage. And so part of what I am very interested in is how do we access all of the wisdom from the different lineages that we belong to? Because all of us have either recent or distant ancestors who practiced divination and healing and partnership with the spirit world, which is what shamanism is. And so that’s something that I’m very passionate about. And the beginning point is let’s first learn how to contact our helping spirits. Let’s learn how easy it is. Let’s learn how available and accessible they are. Let’s take this out of the realm of romanticization or sensationalisation. This is available to everyone. That’s why I said a moment ago it’s in all of our DNA, because all of our ancestors had ways of entering into trance state, sometimes with plant, spirit medicine, pardon me. And sometimes using the means that I’m describing for being in communion with the spirit world. And so to me, that’s alive inside of us.
Julie: And it’s less a question of teaching people as it is helping them remember. So I would say that’s the beginning. And then for me, the term shaman is a spiritual honorific. And I wouldn’t I wouldn’t self-proclaim as a shaman. That’s a term that I feel is bestowed upon one, perhaps by the members of one’s community in recognition of your gifts as a healer and how you’re working in partnership with the spirit world to bring about healing and well-being in the community that you serve. And so that’s classically how that term is held. I love saying I’m a shamanic practitioner or a shamanic healer. I would say equally, I’m a spiritual healer. To me, those terms are also interchangeable. But being called by a spirit to serve as a healer requires its own training. And that’s where people often experience a call of some kind that initiates them into the possibility that there is such a thing as spiritual illness and the remedy spiritual healing. And so I do train people to become shamanic practitioners, and that’s become the focus of my work. It’s been that way since 2012, that I train people to become shamanic practitioners who feel they’ve been called by spirit to offer healing to others. But and I love teaching beginners, and so I also devote a certain amount of my time to teaching basic introductory workshops that are three days long, some in person and some remote to teach anyone how to journey and how to begin to form a relationship with their own helping spirits. Because I just love helping people connect with their helping spirits and recognize their existence and begin to live in partnership with them and in relationship with them. It’s so immensely enriching for people. So I love to do that.
Alison : You have a phrase on your website, “Ennobling the Heart.” And when I when I first saw that, it took my breath away a little bit because I’ve never heard those words together. And I was interested to see, um, I would like to discuss that a little bit with you. What is that? What is that for you?
Julie: Yes. Well, the ennobling of the heart, that turn of phrase, came from my helping spirit to describe what happens in my long term trainings. What I’ve observed happens to my students as they form relationships with their helping spirits, and as they become more clear about who they are and what their gifts are and what the medicine is that they carry, and who the helping spirits are, who are devoted to their wellbeing and to their unfolding and their evolution. And I believe everyone has a purpose in life, and I feel that everyone can become ennobled by way of discovering their purpose and embracing it and sharing their beautiful gifts in the world, whatever those are. And for me, in training practitioners, there’s of course, the aspects of the training that are more practical, skills based. I want to teach certain processes and certain practices that these practitioners will eventually offer their own clients. But I also want to train practitioners who carry this work in the world with integrity and with dignity and with humility. I want to train practitioners to become ennobled. And to me, that speaks to the spiritual evolution that happens when you work with helping spirits who have a quality of consciousness that’s truthfully higher than ours, that we can meet and experience when we journey.
Julie: And that lifts us up, that raises our vibration. And it’s interesting because I’ve never been in one of my own trainings, of course, I only ever have the vantage point of being the facilitator or the teacher, and so I can’t know what it’s like to be on the receiving end of all of these practices and rituals that we do, all of which came from my own teachers, Sandra Ingerman and Betsy Bergstrom, or came from my own helping spirit. So I’m synthesizing what I learned from my teachers, plus sharing what what I would say has been spirit taught, what the helping spirits have taught me directly, but I’ve never been on the receiving end of it, i’m always observing what happens to my students as they go through these processes, and they just become more and more radiant and more and more clear and more and more purposeful and more and more devoted to their path of service. And it’s just so gorgeous to bear witness to. And so calling my work in this path the ennobling of the heart, as I say on my website, this is my love letter to my students.
Alison : Beautiful. Could I ask, though, also, um, when we transition, can we become a guiding spirit?
Julie: Yes, yes. So many of us have ancestors, such as someone you might have known earlier in your life, who has since passed away and who has crossed over who’s now a helping spirit or a guardian angel, if you will. Yes, absolutely. And sometimes it can be a more distant ancestor. So someone you didn’t know in your lifetime, maybe your great great great grandmother, but who still a helping spirit for you. So it can be either or you can have a pet who passed away earlier in your life. I do myself, Tami and I both do. Our beloved cocker spaniel who lived to be almost 17. She’s a helping spirit now for both of us, and so she’s one of our allies that we have in common and that we check in with very often.
Alison : I find that so comforting. Yeah, there’s something comforting about that, that, that there’s, um, that we’re all part of it. And that I could be your helping spirit next time around. Or my my, my kid maybe was my helping spirit a while ago like that’s very moving to me.
Julie: Yes. Well, and I think what you’re speaking to is so important and why I’m so passionate about teaching people how to journey, because we never walk in the world alone again.
Jean : Yeah, yeah.
Julie: And I think we often feel alone in our lives. And of course, post pandemic I think is more of life has become virtual, there’s at once a way in which that’s enabling us to have this conversation and how wonderful, and maybe it couldn’t occur otherwise. And so I’m so grateful and reliant upon technology and appreciative of it. And at the same time, of course, many people report not feeling as connected and feeling more isolated, and that there is more of a sense of dislocation. And the ways in which we’re connecting may not feel quite as meaningful. And so it’s a time when I feel that it’s especially crucial for us to be aware of all of the love and support around us. I mean, I just mentioned three of my helping spirits to my left and right and behind, but I have dozens of helping spirits and to walk in the world with all of that love and care and comfort and especially with loved ones that have passed away. But also, as I said, even with helping spirits that we didn’t share this lifetime with, but that we’ve shared other lifetimes with, there can still be a tremendous relationship and sense of connection. And that’s such an emphasis in my work that we don’t have to be alone. In fact, we’re never alone. Our helping spirits are with us, whether we’re aware of them or not. So imagine if we decided to become aware of them, how much richer our lives would be. They’re there anyway. It’s a resource that we’re that we’re underutilizing. I would say it’s like a bank account you didn’t know that you had. And then you suddenly discover, you know, you’re a millionaire, little did you know, but you are, and it’s so enriching.
Jean : And I think that’s so what we need now. And I think the absence of acknowledging the spirit side of our self is, is really what we’re being asked to bring forth. And, um, and I think trainings like what you’re offering, Julie, are so important so that we as we navigate this very chaotic time, that we know that we have angels and guides and helpers that can, can kind of nudge us and, um, but it takes a little bit of it takes time, you know, like you have to slow down your, your for me anyway, i have to like, slow down my life a little bit and make time for that relationship.
Alison : Mhm.
Julie: Mhm.
Jean : Are you doing any like what are you teaching now. Do you have classes.., are you um. Is that all up in British Columbia or…
Julie: No not not all. Some online. I’m in the midst of leading a series of introductory workshops. So those are three days in length. And there’s one coming up in May in British Columbia. There’s one in June in Colorado. Let’s see, there’s one in June in Ontario, Canada. And then in July I’m teaching one virtually. And I have people who join from all over the United States and Canada, from Europe. And some people, bless them, try to join from the Southern hemisphere, although it’s very tricky in terms of the time difference. Yeah. But I am starting a new training program in September. So these introductory workshops are. Stand alone workshops for total beginners. So no prerequisite. Anybody and everybody is welcome. And so they they are complete unto themselves. And they also serve as the prerequisite for my year long program, which starts in September. And that’s a blended learning program. So combining two in-person retreats with a virtual curriculum in between. And those two retreats do happen up here in British Columbia, although I have students from all over, but that model works well even for people who live further afield, because you come to British Columbia at the start of the program and then you come at the end, and it’s a year long program, and then everything in between is virtual, and we meet very regularly in between, and it’s a very, very structured program. So that’s my level one program for people who feel called to work with spirits in order to offer healing in their communities. So that’s the practitioner training program level one.
Alison : That’s great. Can we talk a little bit about the healing? You know, so many times I feel inundated by, you know, um, symptoms being taken care of, like sort of reactionary medicine or Western medicine and what, what what is your take on that and what do you do differently or the same?
Julie: Um, yes. So I would say that the type of healing work that I practice and teach is never intended to be a substitute for Western medicine or psychiatric medicine or any other healing modality, but rather to complement those other healing modalities. And interestingly, whenever we just look through one lens, we often miss things. And so if I were just looking at a symptom or a cluster of symptoms through the lens of Western medicine, i might miss things. I might miss, for example, psychological issues if I’m not also looking through a psychological lens. Similarly with spiritual healing, if you’re only looking through that lens, you very well may find things, no question, but you might also miss things. And so what I’m interested in is helping this work become restored as a credible healing modality that functions alongside all of the other healing modalities that we’re used to, including the ones that, you know, might have been a little bit less mainstream 30 years ago, like acupuncture or energy medicine, but have now become quite commonplace…. Like, it’s not that uncommon for someone to say, I’m dealing with a Covid diagnosis and I’m working with my medical doctor, but I’m also getting acupuncture and I’m also seeing my energy medicine healer.
Julie: You know, that’s quite common nowadays. So in my ideal world it would become just as normal for someone to say, and I’m working with a shamanic practitioner. And so what we do is explore the spiritual causes of illness and or the possibility that spiritual disharmonies or imbalances can exacerbate illnesses. And this is where sometimes, if we’re looking through the lens of Western medicine or we’re looking through the lens of psychology or psychiatry, again, we may find things, but are we getting to the root of it? And oftentimes people end up in my office or in the offices of my students because they’ve tried everything else. And lo and behold, but there’s something in the way of a spiritual imbalance or illness that was never detected simply because they weren’t looking through that lens, and now there’s a reason for some of or maybe all of what they’ve been experiencing. And so what that means is that we’re working directly with the helping spirits to actually diagnose the presence of spiritual illness. And so shall I give an example, because I realize that’s a little abstract and I want to make it more practical?
Alison : I’ve never heard that term spiritual spiritual illness.
Julie: Mhm. Yeah. So I, I use the terms spiritual illness or shamanic illness interchangeably. What they both point to is are there causes of illness that are spiritual in nature and that can result in or contribute to or exacerbate symptoms, physical symptoms, emotional or psychological symptoms? And yes, I understand that in and of itself can be quite a paradigm shift for people. But I think it also makes a lot of intuitive sense. Shall I give you an example?
Alison : Okay.
Julie: So let’s see what example shall I give? Well this is the example that’s coming up. So I’m going to follow that. So a common form of spiritual illness is possession illness. And that would be if someone, let’s say, there are very many different possible scenarios in which this can take place, but a common one, let’s say that a young father passes away while his children are still very young. And because of his profound love for his children, because of his concern for their well-being, because of his desire to protect them and care for them at the time of his death, he doesn’t cross over successfully. I would say he doesn’t go to the Light. He stays here and he does so out of love and devotion for his children and becomes attached to one of his children. Now, let’s say that he was dying from a disease process that unfolded gradually over time. Believe it or not, I know this can sound quite startling, but that person that he becomes attached to, not necessarily right away, but in the fullness of time, could actually begin to develop some of the same symptoms that their father had that were part of the illness that killed their father.
Julie: So if those symptoms began to present and that person, let’s say they’re now an adult, and they go to the doctor and try to figure this out, there actually is no physical cause, what’s happening is that their dear father who’s become attached to them, his presence is coming forward, His symptoms are presenting. His thoughts could be too, his worries, could be to his anxieties about his children, could be too. So that young person who grows into adulthood with their father, they’re intending to be a loving presence could actually be an overshadowing presence whose anxiety could be felt by the child who’s now an adult as their own, whose worry could now be felt by that person as their own, and who could even develop physical symptoms that wouldn’t have a physical explanation. And so the diagnosis then would be, the practitioner would hear all of what the person is experiencing… Like, I can’t resolve my anxiety. I can’t resolve my worry. I’m just in this chronic state of worry and anxiety. I’m having pain in different places in my body that I can’t explain. And so then the practitioner would enter into a natural trance state, and they would contact their helping spirits and ask for diagnosis.
Julie: And the diagnosis would be, there’s this spirit who’s become attached to his child, who’s now an adult. But he never left this realm. He never left this world. So his spiritual evolution is being impeded by his being here instead of continuing to evolve. But also his now adult child is experiencing the burden of all that he was carrying when he died. And that’s not serving either of them. He’s not actually a helping spirit for his now adult child. He’s not a guardian angel for them, he’s a burden to them, even though that was never his intention. So the healing is to help decouple the father from the child and help the father go to the light finally, and then have the child experience in their adult selves for the first time since their father died. What is it like to be the sole occupant of their body and of their energy field? Because up until that time, from the time their father died, until the time this was detected, there had been two souls in one body. And for the the host, if you will, in this case, the adult child, you don’t even necessarily know…. Very often you have no idea. There’s a whole other set of proclivities, of opinions, of memories, of dreams, of desires, of experiences, of worries, of anxieties, and sometimes of symptoms that belong to the other person, and that was a part of their life ,and how their life ended is it has nothing to do with you and your biography and who you are and what you’re becoming. But those two things become completely enmeshed. So then there’s a decoupling process, and the father is then helped to go to the light, and then the adult child can look at who they are now. And will there be resolution? Will the worry resolve? Will the anxiety resolve? Or maybe they’re a little prone to worry and anxiety too, just like their father was. But now it’s gone from a nine out of ten to a two out of ten, or now it’s commensurate with their circumstances because, of course, being worried and having anxiety is normal and natural in response to certain stressors or triggers. Now, the level of worry or anxiety is commensurate with what’s actually happening instead of always being heightened. And so I know that was a complex explanation, but it’s very, very, very common because when people die, they’re often so afraid of death, or they’re afraid of punishment, they’re afraid of purgatory, they’re afraid of hell, they’re afraid of of being blamed or not being received or not being forgiven, or they’re attached. They’re staying here trying to protect us from harm. And so it can be so well meant, but not helpful for the person who’s dead or for the person who’s still living.
Alison : You know, what you say resonates with me with the idea of generational trauma. You know that, because that’s a term that comes up a lot. And I think we’ve even talked to some people about that. And so that’s so interesting that, um, to, to to see it with what you’re saying from your lens of uh, of, of of on the soul level.
Julie: Yes.
Alison : Um, are you Do you are a teacher or are you still a practitioner now?
Julie: I don’t I don’t provide individual healing sessions anymore because I’ve now trained 100 practitioners who have completed three full years of training. And so my role is to lift them up and to send people to them. And oftentimes, people who resonate with me resonate with my students because we resonate with each other and we’re in community together and they’ve learned from me and they’ve often studied with my teachers as well, who both still teach. And so it’s kind of all in the family, I would say, but I certainly welcome people reaching out to me for referrals. And then what I do is refer people to my students. But if I may, to go back to what you said, yes, this is one of the, in my opinion, very significant contributors to generational trauma that is not widely understood. For example, to use a different thread or to talk about a different thread generational addiction. And so let’s also imagine we’ll use the same storyline. Let’s imagine the father struggled with alcoholism and that that was not resolved for him at the time of his death. Well, if he becomes attached to his adult child, who may also genetically now have that predisposition, when his child has a drink, he gets a little bit of a hit from that.
Alison : Mhm.
Julie: And so he can exacerbate his child’s propensity to become addicted to alcohol because he could influence him to want to drink more. So these patterns of addiction, yes, patterns of trauma wounding etc., can be so greatly exacerbated by we call them suffering beings. Those spirits of people who have died, who become attached to the living and who just need our care and love and support to help them go to the light and the care of the helping spirits, to welcome them to the light, no matter who they are and what they’ve done. I’ve facilitated, I can’t even tell you how many hundreds of compassionate depositions, which is the remedy for possession illness. Every time whoever the person is who’s died and become attached to a living person, whoever they are, whatever they’ve done or whatever they’ve not done, every time, without exception, they are welcomed with open arms by the helping spirits and by their own ancestors who have died. And so there’s no one who gets turned away, even though that’s often the reason that at the time of death, people are afraid to go to the light because they think they’re going to be turned away or punished.
Jean : Oh, that makes so much sense.
Alison : Yeah,
Jean : Especially if you were raised in a religion of, um, you know, fire and brimstone and the devil and all of that and guilt and, and so that deep seated guilt and fear…. It makes sense why they’re just like, no, I’m not going. And, yes, um, you know, you have to sort of coax that spirit lovingly to release. And the way you talk about it, Julie is so loving and compassionate. You know, it’s, um, you know, it’s really honoring everyone’s journey whether you have a body or not. You know, it’s it’s that movement towards the light, towards freedom. Um.
Alison : You’re so gentle.
Jean : Yeah.
Julie: Thank you.
Alison : You’re so gentle. I could just listen to you for ever.
Julie: Oh, that’s so kind. Thank you.
Jean : Your voice is very soothing.
Alison : Yeah.
Julie: thank you.
Alison : Yeah. We have two wrap up questions.
Julie: Yes.
Alison : The first one is, what do you. Our podcast is called Inside Wink. And what do you think? Inside wink means.
Julie: Mhm.
Alison : You.
Julie: Yes. So for me it’s that luminosity that I was describing before which I feel is our natural state as humans. My teacher, Betsy Bergstrom, who taught me compassion deposition and taught me how to care for those beautiful spirits in need as though they are living clients, to treat them equally with just as much care. She also taught me this beautiful practice for working with our heart lights and helping our heart lights shine and twinkle. And to me, that’s that inner or inside wink is that sparkliness or twinkling ness that I think is actually our human natural state. But we’ve become a little defended, unfortunately.
Alison : Yeah. That’s beautiful. And and I think I definitely see that in you. Like, you have such an easy laugh and such a, you know, it’s it’s it’s great. It’s great.
Julie: Thank you.
Alison : Best question.
Jean : Okay. So our last question is do you prefer cake pie or ice cream.
Julie: Definitely ice cream. Chocolate, please. Preferably with hot fudge sauce and whipped cream, but no cherry on top.
Jean : On american Airlines- this is not a plug for American Airlines, but they do offer sometimes a sundae.
Alison : That’s so funny.
Jean : and they ask, do you want vanilla, chocolate, sauce, cherries??? So, um.
Alison : Anyway, I love how definite you are.
Julie: Yes.
Alison : You’re very human. Definite.
Julie: So it’s my favorite dessert. Yes. So my. I’ve placed that order many times.
Alison : You know it. You know it by rote.
Julie: Exactly.
Julie: Thank you so, so much for joining us. You’ve shed light on something that I think is so interesting.
Jean : Yeah.
Alison : And beautiful. And I feel very open. So thank you so much.
Jean : Yeah. You really have illuminated my mind around shamanism and, uh, and I’m very intrigued by this topic. So thank you. Yes. Thank you so much. Many blessings.
Julie: Well, and many blessings to you both. And thank you so much for your open heartedness and your generosity and inviting me to join you and have this lovely conversation with you. Thank you.
Alison : Have a beautiful day.
Julie: You too.
Jean : Bye, Julie.
Julie: Bye bye.
Alison : Okay. That was wonderful, wasn’t it?
Jean : She was wonderful. Yeah.
Alison : Wonderful. Wonderful explanations. And then guess what happened? We saw a quail outside.
Jean : I’m going to have to find you a quail.
Alison : I loved that, though. It was like. It was like a perfect guiding spirit. They were so cute hanging out.
Jean : You know what I thought of another question I wanted to ask her what, um, and had to do with animals because i also think shamanism… Shamanism has to do with spirit animals. And I wanted to talk to her.
Alison : She did mention that because she mentioned she had that bear. Yeah, which I love that.
Jean : But that is a field that I know very little about. And yet I feel like being a shaman is like being an oracle or being a mystic, or maybe like a witch back in the you know, it’s just connecting to spirit world.
Alison : And I think, I think too it also resonates with like Lorna Byrne talking about talking to angels. Yes. That we’ve spoken to so many of these things. Every time we have an interview, I realize it’s all so interconnected and that it that brings me peace. Like nothing is like, um. Oh, what are you talking about? Oh, you know, it’s not like someone’s talking about football, you know? They’re all so interconnected. And when we meet these people, they are radiant. Mhm.
Jean : She was, she has a lot of light and joy.
Alison : Really amazing. And it made me feel very comforted and also very relaxed. Her voice.
Jean : Yeah. She had a beautiful voice. But again there It shows to you know, it’s we’re not alone. We have spirit guides and helpers, whatever the word is… You know, people, let’s not get caught up in angel or guide, ascended master, an ancestor.
Alison : Friend.
Jean : Friend. Yeah.
Alison : Husband. Partner. Yeah. Uh, friend. I mean, that’s the thing, I think. I think it is just about love and opening up. It’s an opening up as opposed to a closing in.
Jean : Yeah.
Alison : Do you know? Which is so nice. Okay, I got to go look for the quail now again. Okay, okay. Have a good day.
Jean : Bye
Podcast Episode 62: Leon Logothetis
Leon Logothetis is a renowned keynote speaker, an acclaimed author and a TV personality who ignites positive change by unleashing the boundless power of kindness. He talks with Jean and Alison about his incredible movie – The Kindness Within: A Journey To Freedom that chronicles his soul-stirring adventure to find the meaning of life.
Transcript
Jean : Well, we’re back in my closet again.
Alison : That’s right. It’s so nice in here, though.
Jean : It really is not.
Alison : It is. It’s. It’s so nice.
Jean : All right.
Alison : How are you?
Jean : I’m good. How are you doing?
Alison : I’m very, very well. Matthew’s visiting.
Jean : He is. And I’m having a great time. And what’s so nice is I love waking up and seeing him in the kitchen in the morning, and he’s making his coffee, and he’s like… And he doesn’t say hi. He gives me a little whistle.
Alison : I love that.
Jean : It’s sweet.
Alison : Your kids are great.
Jean : yes, so as are yours.
Alison : Yes. We’re very lucky. Um, and they’re kind people.
Jean : They are kind. And what a great segue into the guest that we are talking with today.
Alison : Ah, the platform that we’re on, mind, body, spirit suggested that we talk to Leon Logothetis and he is called the kindness Guy because he’s written so many books on kindness, and he has a beautiful story about all this.
Jean : Yeah. And I think it’s very relatable. Um, just about that inner void, that despair that so many people feel. I know I have felt it many times in my life and how to emerge from it.
Alison : Yeah. I can’t wait to talk to him because he’s had incredible journeys, he’s done incredible things. He’s traveled across country on $5 a day and met people. He’s done the same in Europe. He got a yellow motorcycle and went all over. You know, he’s just, um, he goes on these adventures.
Jean : And he meets such incredible people that share their wisdom. And you know what makes them feel, yay! inside or inspired… So this is going to be great. I’m really looking forward to it.
Alison : And here comes Leon.
Leon: Hey, guys.
Alison : Hi, there.
Jean : Hi, Leon.
Leon: How are you?
Alison : Very good. How are you?
Leon: I’m good. Where are you?
Alison : We’re in LA. Where are you?
Leon: I’m in LA. Where in LA are you?
Jean : We are in Studio City.
Leon: I am just off Laurel and Mulholland.
Jean : Oh, wow.
Alison : All right, we’re driving up.
Leon: You’re more than welcome to come.
Jean : I live off of Fryman Canyon.
Leon: Oh, wow. Okay, great. I’ve probably passed your house many times.
Jean : Do you ever do the hike?
Leon: All the time.
Jean : Oh, wow. All right, well, let’s look for each other next time.
Leon: Or we can arrange to do a hike.
Jean : Or we can do even better. Even better.
Alison : You are actually passing Jean’s house when you do the hike.
Leon: Okay. Wow. Okay.
Alison : There you go. It’s great. We’re so happy to, um, to talk to you because I’ve heard about you for so many years, being the kindness guy…. And yet your newest movie, The Kindness Within, was so different. The beginning really was so… It was, like we both just started crying right off the bat. That was so… Could you talk to our audience a little bit about, um how you started your whole process being, “the kindness guy and how it lead to being a movie?
Leon: Sure, absolutely. Uh, so is this live? Oh, you’re recording it?
Jean : Oh, we’re recording it.
Leon: Okay. All right. Okay. Um, so, yeah, I — The kindness within – a journey to freedom.” Um, basically, as you know, I used to be a broker, And, uh, that was many years ago. And I quit my job and I started to travel the world relying on kindness. And that’s when I did the Kindness Diaries. Um, and I did all the things that kind of made me into the kindness guy, right? Externally. Made me into the kindness guy. Um, and you’d mentioned that The Kindness within was very different to the Kindness Diaries. Right. So The Kindness Diaries was about me traveling around the world on a vintage yellow motorbike. Um, relying entirely on the kindness of strangers. And it was kind of the happy go lucky side of me. Right. Which is is still, you know, it’s who I am. Partially. Um, but the Kindness within was kind of a deeper version of me, and it’s it’s another version of me, but it’s still me. So I ended up, um, writing a I was in my house in in Hollywood, not far from where you guys live. Actually, let probably less like a mile than less than a mile and a half from where you live. Yeah. That’s funny. Um, that you probably pass every day when you go over Laurel Canyon, to be honest. Um, and I found myself writing a suicide note, and I was in a really terrible place, obviously. Um, but I found the courage to pick up the phone and call my therapist at a random hour. It was, like, 11:00 at night. Because sometimes dark nights of the soul don’t happen on schedule. Right, right. Um.
Jean : or in just one night.
Leon: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So I called him, and he helped me immeasurably. Uh, obviously, I put down the note, um, and the next morning, I find myself at the Mystic Bookshop in Venice Beach when it used to be on Abbot Kinney. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I absolutely loved that bookshop specifically before it moved to to Main Street, but it was just a magical place. So I went there, I guess, to get some comfort. Right? And I randomly saw Yogananda’s book, autobiography of a Yogi. Now, I’d seen that book many, many times before, but I’d never picked it up. And for some reason I did. And I randomly opened it to a page and I randomly opened what looked at a specific paragraph. And in it he says to a soon to be guru, if you reveal God to me, I will follow you anywhere. And I had an epiphany. I was like, okay, I’m going to India to find God. And I’m not necessarily talking about the God that lives up in the sky with the big white beard. Talking about the universal energy of love, source, spirit, whatever word you want to use. Right. Um, and that’s where the journey of the film begins.
Jean : Yeah. Mhm. Yeah.
Alison : It’s, uh, it was so, um, I felt exactly like you. And so it was so close to me. And yet your journey… I’ve never done anything like that. So it was so interesting to feel connected to you and yet so different on that journey, how how did you change, like during that time? Because it’s only 90 minutes that you get to see. I wish the film was longer. Are you completely, are you are you a different person now? Like, I would think that sort of journey would have completely changed a person for the good.
Leon: Yes. Uh, look, the person that left India and the person that sits before you today is definitely different in many, many ways, right? Um, less in my mind, more in my heart, um, more connected emotionally and spiritually. Again, that doesn’t mean that it was a panacea to get on a plane and go to India, find God, and. Oh, okay. All right then. Everything’s fine now. That’s that’s not the way it worked for me. You know, I still have bad days. Yesterday was one of them. Uh, today is better. Um, but it’s a it’s a process, right? It’s like an an unraveling that gets us to where we ultimately want to be. And I think I’m on that that journey still. The movie helped immeasurably. I think actually, what actually helped in some weird way more than Doing the actual adventure. Although, of course, that’s really important was the editing process, because I had to watch all of these amazing people that I met and all of their wisdom again and again and again and again and again until it became part of who I am. So the first moment of the experience was great, don’t get me wrong, but this the moment of editing and the repetition, the good repetition. Because sometimes you can have bad repetition. Just turn on the news. Yeah. Um, but the good repetition stays with you, right?
Alison : Yeah.
Jean : It it really is about retraining our mind. And then as you first started sharing, leaving the mind and moving into the heart.
Alison : Mm.
Jean : And living your life from that. And and, you know, in this day and age, it’s, it’s really challenging because there’s so much out there that vies for our attention. And, and we, we sort of lose that the place of and I say holiness as in nothing’s lacking. Everything is beauty and perfect, whole and complete. Do you, um, do you have and and to your point also, Leon, it is a that’s I think why they call it a spiritual practice, because it’s just not like you do this once and I’m good. I’m done. You know, it’s it’s like brushing your teeth or vacuuming your rug. You know it… It’s something we have to dedicate our attention to is our inner world. Do you have a practice that you can that you can share with us, that you that helps ground you into your heart.
Leon: Sure. Um, so one of the things that I do, and I made a conscious decision many years ago, was to try my best and to commit to living from a place of love and from a place of compassion and generosity. Now, do I do that perfectly? No. But I have committed to it. So when I mess up, I’m like, okay, you made a commitment to live a certain way. I don’t think doing what you just did was probably the best thing to do. So you have to get back on the wagon, right? Okay. Um, when it comes to. So that’s like the macro thing, which is really important. You know, some people make a commitment and then there’s nothing wrong with this. Some people make a commitment to make as much money as they want. Great. Some people make a commitment to create a magnificent family. Great. I just made a commitment early on to live from this place to the best of my ability. Okay. Um, and from a micro perspective. Look, there are two things that I do every day that help me a lot. And the first thing you’ve heard many, many times, and that’s simply that I meditate. I don’t necessarily meditate just in one specific way. Sometimes I meditate with with no music, with nothing. Sometimes I’ll meditate with, um, a specific chanting song, sometimes I meditate with…. However I do it, I do that right. And I’ve done that for a long time, and that that helps. But I will say something else, which I do, which I think is, has helped me immeasurably. I keep using the word immeasurably for some reason. I have no idea why, but whatever.
Jean : It’s a great word.
Alison : It’s excellent. Yeah.
Leon: Is that I use music to regulate my nervous system and I do it very consciously. So, for example, if I’m having a moment, it’s not pleasant. For whatever reason, I will go through my playlist and I will find a song that will calm me down in that moment, and I will listen to it on repeat. I may have to listen to it on repeat for an hour. I may it may only take 15 minutes. And then it really kind of balances me and and calms down my nervous system. And it’s not always the same song. It could be a different song. Could be…. Sometimes I need an EDM song, right? Sometimes I need a very peaceful, calm piano song, whatever it is. But it’s something so simple. Next time you find yourself in a not such a great place, right? Obviously you can use music as well for when you are in a great place, but let’s say for not, you’re not in such a great place. Go through your list, find a song and listen to it for as long as you can for you to rebalance yourself. So, for example, I may be at like 95% anxiety, which is a very bad place to be. But if I listen to this song for 45 minutes, whatever song it is, I could go down to 50% just by doing that. Yeah, and it’s something easy that anyone can do, but it has to be on repeat.
Jean : Right, right, right.
Alison : Not just once.
Leon: Not just once.
Alison : Yeah.
Leon: As long as it takes to get you rebalanced.
Alison : That’s really interesting.
Jean : I think the same way..
Alison : My son does that… I think Brady does… I think my, I think my son does that because he’ll listen and listen and listen. And then I’m like, what were you listening to? He goes, oh, I’m just you know, I was getting into it for an hour, but it’s over. And then he’ll move on to something. I’m going to ask him. That’s really interesting. Leon.
Leon: Yeah.
Jean : Yeah – music absolutely has that power for me as well… Um, and I’ll listen to.
Alison : That’s really interesting.
Jean : Yeah, it it is. And I and I forget that. And thank you so much for reminding me about that because I love music and I, I just think the same ruminating the same thoughts, the same thoughts. And then I’ll catch myself and I’ll say, why do I feel so not inspired, or a little agitated or whatever the word, whatever I’m feeling, and then I’ll listen or I’ll hear something and I feel so much better.
Alison : It’s very smart. Can you, can we just…. Okay, so—- what’s God? Let’s just do it, Leon. Let’s just do it. Come on.
Leon: Oh, wow. Um. Well, look what I noticed or what I realized in the movie in my trip around India was that you can’t explain God. You have to feel it. Right. So I think that’s a good starting point. So whatever I say to you is probably not going to answer the question, because it’s a feeling that comes from within you. Right, but I’ll try my best.
Alison : Great.
Leon: And I’ll tell you what. God is for me.
Alison : Okay.
Leon: Okay. It’s the universal energy of love. And it’s a vibration, a vibrational experience that once you’ve had it, you never forget it. And, it has to be felt. You can read the Koran, you can read the Bible, you can read every religious text in the world. But if you think you’re going to get to God through your mind, you’ll never stop reading because it will never happen. I don’t know. Did that answer your question?
Alison : That’s really great. And then on top of that, in in the movie, you say at one point, um, and the people you met are unbelievable. And I just fell in love with all the people. But at one point you say, um, I, I see I think he was a Buddhist because you’re talking about not there is no God. And you say, I see that you are God. So if you saw that he was God, didn’t you already know God?
Leon: That’s an excellent question. And the answer is, yes. Right. We can have moments of that and not be as connected enough to be able to have it guide our lives. Right. And maybe that’s where I was. And in the movie, that’s really no one’s ever pointed that out. But it’s a very, very good point– in the movie, i think it’s very close to that scene, and I want to give away the moment, but it’s very close to that scene where I’m walking and I say with the voiceover, I say, I felt like I was a breath away from God. So what I mean by that is that each person I met got me closer and closer and closer. So in that moment with the Buddhist, I had met God, but I wasn’t aware of it at.
Jean : Right, right. So when we when that movie was over, Allison looked at me and she said that she, she said that very quote to me… We were sitting right over there, and I said, I said yes. I said, because when you spot it, you got it.
Leon: Mm. Mhm.
Jean : Right. So, so in my um my belief is, is that the universe is a is our outer world is reflecting back to us. Right. So if I see you. Wow. Leon, you have something… You have this quality that I’m that I desire. You know, it’s like if I, if I see it in you, it is already in me. And we’re removing the blocks to that awareness.
Leon: Yes. That’s that’s beautiful.
Jean : There are so many The way in my training with A Course in Miracles is through forgiveness because we judge ourselves. So the judgment is, I’m not that- I’m judging myself, right. And then someone comes along and gives that back to us. And you say that too Leon, the greatest gift we can give another is, is to help, another to be seen, and that fuels them… So we are in this together.
Alison : Yeah.
Jean : We are. We are co-creating our entire life experience. And and your movie is exquisite in showing that it. We were so taken with your movie.
Alison : Do you think that then your kindness books you had met God… You had that… Is the beginning. The beginning of like you’re on the elevator. You’re on the ground floor there, because if you have come to the idea that for you is that feeling of connectedness and love. Did you feel that during your travels?
Leon: Look, I absolutely did feel it. Did I feel it the same way that I feel it now? No I didn’t. And I was on the elevator floor at the beginning and on the ground floor with the Kindness diaries. Right. And all the stuff I had done. And I think this was something, something different. And that’s why, as we started the podcast, you mentioned these are two different things.
Alison : Yeah.
Jean : And that’s because the first one or yes, the happy go lucky guy, but the first one was really the ground floor and it was like an unraveling, uh, as the as well. Let’s hope the elevator doesn’t unravel. We’ll use another analogy. Yeah, it was like a, you know, the elevator going slowly, slowly further up, further up being more connected. More connected.
Alison : Right.
Alison : And you, you seem right now so open and so loving. We’re living in a very, um, distinct time where I think some of it there’s a perception of cruelty. So how do you keep your heart from being pained?
Leon: Yeah, that’s a very good question. And I am aware of what’s going on. It’s highly troubling. I’m a student of history, and I see patterns, and there is a lot of cruelty. Um. How do I keep my heart clean? The truth is, I don’t watch the news.
Alison : Yeah.
Leon: People always tell me things. They tell me things. But I don’t watch the news. Because when I turn on the news, it’s. Sometimes it feels like I’ve been punched in the stomach.
Alison : Yeah.
Leon: You know, the level of the level of what is going on out there and not just what’s going on out there from the top, but the people that are allowing it to go on and the people that are…. How do I say this? Egging it on. And, i don’t want to call them minions, but I can’t think of anything else. The minions, I would say to those people, go to Auschwitz. Go to Auschwitz. Because when we live in a world devoid of empathy, that’s what happens. And if you go to Auschwitz, it it changes you at a cellular level. Look at history. It’s interesting… I don’t talk about geopolitics, i don’t talk about politics. But because I’m a student of history. When I see people doing what they do, it just drives me insane.
Alison : Yeah. It’s it’s truly, truly heartbreaking. And my, my father was, um, a journalist, and his whole mission was a mission of good and finding out and, and I think now he’s passed away and I think now we live in such a world. I don’t know that he could recognize or what you’re saying… He would recognize it so vividly that it would break. Really just break his heart. And, um, I have a child that came out as non-binary, and I have to say, I feel frightened for that child. And, um, I love them with my whole heart. And I think people make a snap judgment on how they present. And so I found your movie so hopeful. Um, do you what do you find hopeful besides music and meditation? Is there is there actually, um, a place or a person or something that you kind of gravitate to? Because I showed your movie to my family because I just wanted to stay in that sort of feeling. Is there anything like that for you?
Leon: Look, there’s a lot of hope out there, right? We can look at the darkness, but there’s still hope. Like in the Second World War, there was a lot of darkness, right? But there was also a lot of hope. And ultimately hope won.
Alison : like what, though? Like what? When you say that, like, what can you. Can you tell me what your referencing.
Leon: Conversations like what we’re having right now.
Alison : Gotcha.
Leon: Uh, books that espouse love and books that espouse resolving these types of issues that are going on right now. Podcasts. Um, lots of things. There’s lots of hope.
Alison : It makes me feel good.
Leon: Let’s not forget that there’s lots of hope. We watch the news and we think there’s no hope. But there is a lot of hope.
Jean : Yeah. There is. I think you’re being a light in the world when you when you hold the door open for someone, when you’re when you appreciate a friend or you reach out, you know- that I think we’re all I think there’s so much hope and and we’re really asked to turn the gas up.
Alison : Yeah.
Leon: Do you know what people do.. mistakenly? They take those who have an open heart and a kind, and they look at them as if they’re weak. Right. Okay. And they think, oh, you know, because you have an open heart and because you’re kind. Um, we can walk all over you. I would say to those people, remember Muhammad Ali. Yeah. And I’m really saying this to us. I and the people that are listening. Muhammad Ali was a man of love. A man of kindness. A man of service. Not a perfect man. No one is. How many of you would mess with Muhammad Ali?
Alison : Right?
Leon: So when people take our kindness and compassion and generosity as weakness, I would say to them, there is a line that I would suggest you do not cross. I will be kind. I will be compassionate, and I will be loving. But don’t see that as weakness, because I assure you it isn’t.
Jean : Mhm. Yeah. It’s like…do you know the author Anita Moorjani?
Leon: I’ve heard of her.
Jean : She had a near-death experience and it’s amazing… And she’s amazing. And she wrote a new book called sensitive is the new strong.
Leon: Okay.
Jean : And it is about our sensitive nature, our vulnerability. Much like yourself, Leon, a man that is really, you’re being very open and vulnerable with your journey and and going, you know, this happened and – and the power of and – and I was able to move through it and and be of ultimate service –like your your film your books are, are truly of service and your talks.
Alison : And what I like about you is you seem like a tough nut.
Leon: Do you know what? Yeah. I mean —.
Alison : Like, in the best sense …Like, you’re not, you’re not like, you’re very different than, um, than someone that typically, you know, you just, you know, you you don’t seem like you take a lot of guff and it doesn’t seem like… And it seems like you just want to get to the point, which I really, I really Enjoy.
Leon: Thank you.
Alison : do you think, like, what’s next for you? Do you think like like, are you going to go along this path or like where where where is your heart and mind taking you?
Leon: So remember the scene in Rishikesh when I was sitting opposite NandiniG at the statue of Shiva, right? And I sat there and I said to her, I said many things, but one of the things I said to her is, look, you have what I want. You clearly have what I want. How on earth do I get that? And she turned around and she says, don’t do, just be. And it was so profound in the moment. It was profound. But listening to it 500 times made it more profound. And I came to a realization with this movie that I was not going to do anything except focus on this movie and promote this movie. And when I knew when it came to me of what I was going to do next, I would know. So as it stands now, I have no idea.
Alison : I love that.
Leon: And I think that’s a beautiful thing. It’s a beautiful place to be.
Leon: Yeah, yeah.
Jean : It’s very fresh.
Leon: Yeah, it’s crazy right? It’s like. Because that wasn’t me. In the old days, I would doo doo doo doo doo doo doo. And I’m proud of the success, but I overdid it.
Alison : Yeah.
Leon: I really overdid it. I remember I once, and this sounds insane, but it actually happened. I did 47 speeches in 42 days whilst driving from LA to New York. That’s insane. And you wonder why I had a meltdown? Yeah, I was running away from the pain, even though I was teaching people to to face it. I myself was running from it.
Alison : Yeah, yeah.
Jean : Oh, and another great quote you say you offer in the movie. You say the kindest man has to start being kind to himself.
Leon: Yes.
Leon: Yeah. Yes.
Jean : So great.
Leon: Mhm.
Leon: That was a beautiful moment. That was a beautiful shot. The cinematographer did a great job there.
Jean : Yeah.
Alison : Well I wonder what would they get out of it?
Leon: I mean, they got a lot out of it.
Alison : Yeah.
Leon: The experiences I was having, they were having too.
Alison : Yeah. That’s so great.
Leon: The travel, the wise people, they were watching the edit as well. Right. They were having the same look. They had their own unique experience. Yeah, but they were there experiencing it all.
Jean : It shows how when you say yes to a project, you know, there’s there’s something so much bigger going on with the soul.
Alison : Yeah.
Jean : Like you’re a little human. So I’m going go and make a movie and I’ll sign up. Oh, I got a job. I’m going with this guy over to India. And meanwhile, your soul is is being transformed in in such a beautiful way.
Alison : What are you proudest of.
Leon: In my life? I’m proudest of my relationship with my partner. He is a magical human being. It took a long time to get to that.
Alison : That’s beautiful.
Leon: Yeah. Um. I’m proud of the movie. Immeasurably. Again, I use that word a lot. Yeah. Um, I’m. I’m proud of a lot of things. I’m proud of my relationship with my dog. He’s an, he’s an interesting fellow. He’s got an addiction to many things. Um, but he’s an interesting fellow. Um, I’m proud of a lot of things.
Alison : Yeah.
Jean : Good.
Alison : I love that the first thing you said was a connection…With another person, because I think it’s… That’s the stuff that, um. I think that ultimately that’s the stuff that soothes us and comforts us the most. So that’s really beautiful. Is your dog there?
Leon: He’s outside playing with the ball.
Alison : Oh good. Good on him. Yeah. You know, we normally end our podcast. The name of our podcast is Inside Wink, and we normally end by asking our interviewees, what do you think or what does it mean for you? The word inside wink?
Leon: Um. Being, I guess, Divinity.
Leon: Being a being aware of what we are. And sometimes it just takes a wink for us to wake up. And I’ll tell you a quick story about synchronicity or a wink, the divine wink, let’s call it. So this wasn’t in the movie. We tried desperately to put it in, but it just didn’t make any sense. We couldn’t do it. Um, but after 2 or 3 days in India, I wanted to give up. In fact, I did give up. I wanted to go home, and I was on my I was in a hotel in Rishikesh, up in the mountains, and I decided that that was it. It was finished after 2 or 3 days. So I was walking literally to my director’s room to tell him that I was going home. And I saw this door that was open on my way. I was like, that’s interesting. I’ll go in there. So I go in there and it’s a it’s like a little library inside this hotel. Not a particularly magnificent library, but whatever. There were 20 books, 30 books, whatever. And I walk in there, and I love books, obviously. And what do I find? Another of Paramahansa Yogananda’s books, this time called, The Divine Romance, which is all about finding God. That’s the entire book. So I said to myself, okay, I’m not going home.
Alison : Yeah.
Alison : That gives me chills.
Leon: Yeah, it was crazy, right? Literally, I was on my way to the room to go home.
Alison : Yeah, that is perfect.
Jean : What a great godwink for you to go. No. Turn it around.
Alison : You’ve got to do a director’s cut. You’ve got to release this stuff.
Leon: The problem, the problem. The reason why we didn’t do it is because obviously, there were no cameras. When I had that moment, and it was all happening inside me, so we ended up filming it after the fact. But it didn’t feel right.
Jean : No, no.
Alison : But I love that when everything. Just you just. It’s such a direct like, hello?
Leon: Exactly.
Jean : But but that was great. And we need those little taps on the shoulder. Yeah.
Leon: Absolutely.
Jean : Yeah. So true. Okay, so I’m going to ask our final question. Uh, what’s your favorite cake? Pie or ice cream?
Leon: Hmm.
Leon: Rice pudding.
Alison : Oh, that’s what we love.
Leon: I love my grandmother. Used to make rice puddings. We would go to her house every Sunday and she would have rice pudding for dessert. But she knew that we loved rice pudding, so she would leave them out in the kitchen. So the moment we walked in, we would go and, like, eat five rice puddings.
Alison : Oh, I love that. No one has said that. Yeah, yeah,
Jean : We. Have to add that to our list.
Alison : We do. We definitely do.
Jean : Pie. Ice cream or rice pudding?
Alison : I would vote for that. You are such an interesting, wonderful human. And I’m so glad that you got to share this, this, this, this time with us, because… And I can’t wait to see what moves you next.
Leon: Well, thank you so much for having me. It means a lot.
Jean : many blessings. You and your life is a beautiful blessing to countless people.
Alison : Yes.
Leon: Thank you.
Jean : Thank you.
Alison : Thank you. Have a great…we’ll See you on Fyrman.
Leon: Yes.
Alison : Bye.
Jean : Wow. I, I really felt very, um, akin to this man. You know, I felt he was, um, not pontificating yet, he was very wise. He’s sharing his his journey and had so much to offer and will continue.
Alison : I was just saying this to you though, but that reminds me of you in a way. Like, you know, you don’t pontificate and you’re very wise. And I just love when we’re able just to get into a conversation with somebody. Yeah. And what I like is, um, he just seemed like a regular guy in a hat.
Jean : Yes. And that’s what makes it so relatable. Yeah. And about. I think kindness is the answer. And I think we are being asked all the time now… Are you going to choose love and kindness, or are you going to choose fear and anger or and not that that has its place. You know, I don’t want to say that we should never be fearful or angry, because I certainly have my moments, But it’s, you know, the power really is in being kind and starting with ourselves.
Alison : I love that you say that. We’re being asked now. And I think that’s so true. I think, um, so many times within a day you can make, I, I can make a choice to be kind or just to be like a crab. And I’m really siding more towards laughing more and loving more, you know, and trying to be on that side of the fence, you know?
Jean : Yeah. I mean, because it just, it’s it’s contagious.
Alison : Mhm. Mhm. And his, his movie is just.
Jean : Oh I think it should be seen in schools.
Alison : Yeah. And the fact that the title says um, A Journey to Freedom.
Jean : I wanted to ask him about freedom, but we didn’t. But I was watching the clock also… And um, again, another great person that I could have spent the afternoon chit chatting with.
Alison : So please check out. Please check out his movie. Please go to his his website. It’s in our little blurb. His name is Leon. Leon Logothetis. So it’s just look how how you spell it. And just really, he has so many books out. He’s just he was a really wonderful. So we hope it inspired you.
Jean : Yeah. And we know you’re kind. We know that about you. And we are grateful for your listening to our podcast.
Alison : That’s right. Thank you so much. Have a have a beautiful day. Bye.
Jean : Bye.
Podcast Episode 61: Bill Burke
Bill Burke founded The Optimism Institute in 2022 after an extensive media and sports career as an executive, writer, and producer. Bill served as CEO of The Weather Channel Companies after several years at Time Warner/Turner Broadcasting System. Additionally, for fifteen years he was the co-owner and chairman of the Portland Sea Dogs, the double-A Minor League Baseball affiliate of the Boston Red Sox. As a writer, Bill co-authored Ted Turner’s top-10 New York Times Best-Selling autobiography Call Me Ted and later co-wrote/produced/directed “Live Another Day,” an award winning feature-length documentary on the bailout of the U.S. auto industry.
Bill hosts the podcast Blue Sky and hopes that the podcast and the The Optimism Institute inspire people to accept an optimistic, hopeful vision of the world and its future.
Learn more at https://www.theoptimisminstitute.com.
Transcript
Jean : Well. Good morning.
Alison : Hello. Here we are.
Jean : We haven’t done this in…
Alison : A little bit. Yeah. It’s been it’s going to be good today.
Jean : And I do love this man that we get to talk to.
Alison : I know I really do, because, uh, he his name is Bill Burke, and he is the founder of the Optimism Institute.
Jean : Right. Which was founded, he founded this in 2022.
Alison : And what else? Like what more do we need right now than optimism? Yeah. You know?
Jean : That is so true. And I think exactly the content that he’s trying to promote is what insidewink is doing too, right. Yeah. And he has a great podcast.
Alison : What’s it called. Do you know?
Jean : It’s. Yeah, it’s called the Blue Sky.
Alison : Oh that’s perfect. Yeah. I always hear everyone else’s names and I love them.
Jean : I know, but I love insidewink.
Alison : I do too
Jean : And I can’t wait to hear what he says when we ask him what it means..
Alison : Yeah, yeah. And what’s interesting to me is that he had, like a news and sports background, and then he decided that the world needed, um, some lifting up, maybe…
Jean : Right, I can’t wait to hear how he answers that when we ask him how he started.
Alison : Yeah, it’s going to be great. So we hope you enjoy it and stay optimistic through the entire interview.
Jean : Yes. Thank you.
Bill: How are you?
Jean : Hi, Bill.
Bill: I’m very good.
Alison : I’m Alison.
Jean : And I’m Jean.
Bill: Nice to meet you.
Jean : Oh, it’s great to meet you.
Alison : We are so happy that you that you agreed to do this. Because we love your whole your podcast and everything that’s with optimism.
Bill: Oh thank you, I appreciate that.
Jean : We’re so in alignment. Your mission statement and insight. Um. And I really enjoy your newsletter, Bill.
Bill: Oh, wow. Thank you. You’re very kind. Where are you two?
Alison : We’re in LA.
Bill: Whereabouts?
Alison : Uh, Studio city, where are you?
Bill: I’m in New York, but I lived out there off and on when I was much younger. And, uh, I asked because my my niece was in Pacific Palisades. She lost her home, and I know all that…. I always I worry about people out there because it’s a scary thing and it’s a tough time, but, uh.
Alison : We’re So sorry. And I guess that could be like our first question. How do you stay optimistic then?
Bill: Yeah, that’s a great question. Well, I think, um, for me, it’s a lot of things. One is that, um, life is difficult. It’s always been difficult. It always will be. And if we expect perfection, we’ll be disappointed. And, uh, it’s not, you know, will you have setbacks? It’s when you do, how do you respond to them? And, um, she’s a she’s a lucky one. She and her husband had good insurance, and they have the means to get back on their feet. It was a wild story, though. They were expecting their first child via surrogate, and the surrogate was up in Oregon. And they after their house burned down, they just hopped in a car and went to Oregon. And baby came early. And now they have a newborn. And my brother was able to help him find a place to live down in Newport Beach. And they’re going to start a new life with, you know, no, no material goods, but with a new baby. So, wow. Crazy stories. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think, but I think it’s important to understand that these things happen. It’s a terrible, terrible, scary, awful thing. Um, these kind of disasters have been with us forever. One of the things that led me to this work is I’m a big history buff, and I think it’s really important to understand what things happening today in historical context. And, um, so, yeah, but it’s believe me, it’s a it’s a constant thing. Optimism isn’t just handed to you or just doesn’t come naturally, and also you have to be realistic and empathetic and and look out for people. I also am a huge believer in, uh, Fred Rogers mother’s comment, always look for the helpers. And I’ve been so inspired by the professional helpers in Los Angeles that I’m seeing the firefighters, obviously, and first responders, but just neighborhoods and people and small acts of kindness and big acts of kindness. To me, that’s what gets me going too, is just seeing how people come through these things and, and get to the other side.
Jean : So yeah, I love that you say that because it, it really, um, forces us to remember that every, you know, there’s a choice in every, every decision. And, um, and I think our bodies can signal to us when we’re choosing something that feels fearful and contracted or when we feel more expansive and generous with our lives.
Bill: Sure, I think that’s right. And you can can often see it in people’s body language. You know, the closed versus open and, um. Yeah, i think that’s right. I think I used to work with Ted Turner, and he, um, his father committed suicide. He lost his, uh, his younger sister prior to that. And it’s it’s a little it’s very direct. It’s the way he is. But he said a situation like that, you either break down or break out. And, um, he lived a lot of his life sort of trying to stay ahead of those things that had happened to him in the past. It’s not always the best way to cope with things. I believe in therapy and other things to help you. But, um, yeah, you always, every, every situation, life presents you with those choices I think.
Alison : You had a very strong television background and and I’m wondering like, how then did you decide to turn towards this? Because I’m so interested in that.
Bill: Well, I think for me, as you know too, this is a very accessible medium. Uh, you know, it’s the it’s the best thing and the worst thing about podcasting is anyone can do it. So there’s a lot of stuff out there. Um, but I knew I could do this quickly. Uh, you know, and get get going with this without needing, you know, to please the distribution masters of television. Um, and yeah, so it’s it’s very accessible. I love storytelling, I love, uh, meeting people and reaching out to people and learning their backgrounds. And so for me, um, this was a great way to do that. I also love audio. I grew up, uh, I was actually born in, in Michigan. My father was the general manager of a big radio station there..I listened to baseball on the radio and i love, I’ve always been fascinated by how audio entities like an NPR, like NPR has a sound. It’s this really strong branding device with no visuals. And, you know, how do they do that?
Jean : You mean like Netflix? Like when you hear the –boom boom (theme of Netflix sound)
Bill: Exactly. Exactly. Or, you know, if you hear the, if you listen to NPR and you hear the All Things Considered theme….Even even sometimes the cadence of the on air talent, you know, people make fun of it and I get it. But there’s a there’s a sound. You kind of know you’re listening to NPR, but yes, absolutely- the Netflix or the Taco Bell Bell or, um, you know, I just think I think audio is a really interesting medium.
Alison : Can I ask just a just a secondary about the about your television background?
Bill: Sure.
Alison : Um, I feel my both my parents were news reporters for the New York Daily News, and I feel– yeah, they they were great– and I’m just wondering, what is your thought about how the news has changed? Because I feel now that that really adds to the challenge of being optimistic..
Bill: 100 percenrt! Uh, what I described actually was just describing someone today, that the three biggest things I hear from people that lead to their pessimism these days, the big buckets are, climate change and sort of eco anxiety, um, political division, polarization and news and social media. Yeah. And, and sort of how it pours gas on the first two things I just mentioned and things in general. Um, and I think maybe part of the reason I’m doing this is like a guilt trip, because I used to work in the, in that media business, less on the news side, but a little bit. Um, yeah and I think what’s happened is you have this proliferation of voices, so there are all these, you know, the Daily News used to have two competitors, probably -The Times and The Post, and now they have almost an infinite number. Right. Um, and with that, with those many voices, the loudest ones are the ones that get noticed. So I think news has always emphasized the exceptional and usually the negative, but now I think it’s it’s dialed up that much more. And then on top of that, I think it’s so omnipresent that it causes real problems for us. And so one of the things I talk about is what I describe as the paradox of modern optimism, which is there are many arguments to be made that there’s never been a better time to be alive than today, but there’s never been a harder time to be optimistic. So how do we square those two things? And on this, on the second part about it being hard to be optimistic, I think so much of that is on us because we allow it to happen to us. But it’s on these these providers of negativity, of algorithms that pull us down deeper and deeper, deeper into doom, um, alerts that we put on our phones that tell us every three minutes.
Bill: I was talking to someone last weekend who said, I cannot stop watching what’s going on in Washington, I just can’t. I feel like I need to know everything that’s going on. I said, well, I understand that, and I think there’s plenty of reasons to be to be concerned right now, but following it minute to minute through the course of the day is not doing yourself any favors. You’re not you’re not impacting what’s going on. You’re not. And if and by the way, if you just let it go and read the paper the next morning or got your fill in a half hour the next morning, you didn’t miss much. If you didn’t follow between 10 a.m. and 5 p.m. when you’re in your office. So, um, it’s a long winded answer to your question. I worry a lot about local news, and that business model is very challenged. And, um, I used to live in Maine. I was involved with trying to help the newspaper survive. That wound up being sold to a non profit. And, um, I think that’s important because, local news can use wire services, but the AP is not going to go to the Portland, Maine City Council meeting. And and local news is extremely important to a democracy. So very long answer to a simple question.
Alison : No, no, no, I completely agree that local news is very important and a little bit more straightforward, because they don’t really have a lot of time for people to discuss or pundits and that type of stuff.
Bill: Right.
Bill: Yeah. And I think, I think we tend to and I think this is a trend, we tend to focus more on national politics and government and what’s going on in Washington, and not as much as we used to in what’s going on locally. And frankly, when push comes to shove, that has a greater impact on your day to day life. What’s happening in your local government than what’s happening in Washington… And I think it’s we do ourselves a disservice to just watch everything that happens in the Capitol, and not so much what happens in our town.
Jean : Right, right.
Jean : But it’s so true. I mean, when there’s so much change going on, I think our natural instinct is to go, what’s happening out there? And, um, and you mentioned in, in one of your interviews that I heard was the scientific research that, uh, benefits someone that can hold on to an optimistic attitude. Can you talk about that for a little bit?
Bill: Yeah, it’s really important. I’m not I’m not a scientist or a doctor, but what I’ve read suggests that it optimists live significantly longer lives, and that’s partly because having an optimistic framework can lower blood pressure. A lot of these basic things that that lead us to getting ourselves into trouble health wise, um, it’s great for our mental health for reasons that I think are even more obvious. And I think that for me and my wife teases me, she said I’m more pleasant to be around since I started doing this work. When you spend your day, when you spend your day- i’ll take whatever I can get- when you spend your day looking for positive things, you’re going to find them, you know?… It’s sort of like, if armed with a hammer, everything looks like a nail. If you’re looking for negativity, you’ll find it. But if you’re looking for good people and good deeds and positivity, it’s everywhere. The people ask me, how do you find all these guests for your podcast? That’s the easy part. They’re Everywhere. They just don’t get the headlines.
Jean : Right, right.
Bill: Those aren’t the stories that sell newspapers or get eyeballs to TV shows or social media. And so in my small way, I try to shed a light on that. And I think it’s good for our health. I know it’s good for our health. Um, and I think these things, um, have multiplying effects that if if you can see that and reward that and put a spotlight on that, that leads to more of that, if you can, um, be kind to people through the course of a day, if you’re in the checkout line and instead of being angry, say, how’s your day going? It’s like it’s an icebreaker. And all of a sudden they feel better. I feel better, um,— living in New York, I walk a lot, and I try to keep my earphones out and my phone in my pocket and just look around.
Alison : Yeah.
Bill: And you see way more goodness than than not, way more, it’s not even close.
Alison : Yeah.
Bill: Uh, and I love using New York as an example, too, because it sounds like you have a New York background.
Jean : We both do.
Bill: Oh, you both do.
Jean : Yeah…I’m from New York, and so is your office on Columbus Circle.
Bill: I’m in Columbus Circle. Yeah, I grew up in Westchester, out in Rye, and then, uh, have lived in Maine for the last 20 years. But my wife and I are splitting our time between Maine and New York. And as you know, people think New Yorkers are tough and mean and short and, you know, short with their temper and all those things. I find it’s just the opposite. They’re they’re they’re very direct, which it can be very refreshing, but some of the most approachable, kind, helpful, neighborly people anywhere, I think.
Alison : Um, I totally agree.
Bill: Yeah, right. It’s a it’s a funny stereotype, but it’s it’s not accurate in my in my experience.
Alison : Well, I think New Yorkers are I’m from the Bronx and I think New Yorkers are tough. And from here, people are always like a little, uh, when I first got here, my accent was a little stronger. But I have to say, i’ve had stuff happen on New York streets and a crowd will help you.
Bill: Exactly. I always say that if you walk around, you’ll see…. I walk near the park and you’ll see strangers coming up to pet strangers, dogs. And you’ll see someone drop something in the crosswalk, and five people go to help him, or a tourist is lost and her English isn’t very good, and three police officers and two passengers are trying to help him. Or two pedestrians. It you see it all the time and people are out and about. Um, LA, I love living in LA and I’ve certainly missed the climate, um, but you spend more time in your car, you’re more you’re more insulated and isolated, I think, than you’re literally bumping into people and rubbing shoulders with people throughout most of much of your day. When you’re traveling around New York City, packed in a subway, walking down the street, it’s just different. But anyway, it just I just think they’re great people everywhere and good people everywhere- and we just the more we can focus on that and put spotlights on that and talk about that, the better off we’ll all be.
Jean : You know, Bill, that reminds me of this great quote. And, um, so it’s not my quote at all, and maybe you’ve heard of it, here’s the quote, “focus on the good, and the good comes into focus.”
Bill: Ooh, I like it. I hadn’t heard.
Jean : I don’t know who said it.
Bill: Yeah, it’s true.
Jean : I think that’s exactly what you you’ve been saying.
Bill: Totally…yeah, It’s everywhere.
Alison : So what are some steps, especially right now in the world, uh, really concrete steps for someone to adopt your mindset?
Bill: Yeah. So I think, um, first, again, where we started is acknowledge that life’s going to be difficult. Life’s going to hand you setbacks. And there probably people listening right now who are facing a really intense, deep, you know, personal tragedy. So I’m very sympathetic to that. Um, and but in general, I think that, um, again, the biggest challenge we have today versus in the past, is all the information that we take in. And so, what I try to encourage people to do, and I need to work on this myself, is limit your your social media use. Don’t sit in front of cable news all day and listen to people yell their hot takes and opinions. Um. Get outdoors. Look up. You know, get your exercise. Focus on ( I stole this from Stephen Covey)…. He talks about your,”circle of interest and your circle Of influence.” Yeah. And focus on your circle of influence. Your circle of interest is huge- it’s climate change, it’s government- things that are important, but that, frankly, you don’t have a lot of influence over day to day. Um, if you focus on your circle of influence, you’ll actually have an influence. You’ll feel your own agency, you’ll make people’s lives around you better and your own. Um, and dabble in the in the circle of interest. Catch up on that with the morning newspaper. You mentioned the Daily News. I grew up, my parents would get the the New York Times. Read the paper in the morning and you’d go to work– You work all day, and maybe you got the post of the Daily News on the on the commute home, and maybe you’d watch local news or Walter Cronkite or whatever, and then you’d repeat.
Bill: Today people are getting alerts on their phones and on their laptops, and and it’s just not healthy. We’re not wired to take all that in. So I think that’s that’s probably the biggest step. And then within social media, take a look at your feeds like clean them up. Like, if someone keeps popping up that doesn’t make you feel good- ask why are you following that person or why?.. And every time you like or forward, that’s a vote. And you’re they’re going to feed you more of it. I have experienced this when you clean up your feed and and share more positive stuff. The The algorithms can spin you up into goodness as just as they spin you down into the bad stuff. It it’s real. It’s a it’s a thing. So a lot of these things are on us. I’m not a huge fan of the business models of some of these social media platforms, but we kind of ask for some of it and we reward the wrong things. So those I think are the are the biggest things I’d recommend.
Alison : Thank you.
Jean : Yeah.
Jean : Uh, Bill, do you think there’s a difference between gratitude and optimism?
Bill: I think they’re different, but but compliment. I think gratitude feeds into optimism in a big way. So gratitude, I think, is being thankful for what you’ve have, what you’ve had. Um, and if you the more you can appreciate that, the more likely you are to expect good things to happen in the future as well. So I would define an optimist thinks that tomorrow will be better than today, and that they have a role to play in making it so. And you can you can think about tomorrow being better when you when you stop and appreciate all the things that have happened to you to this point. Okay. So I think I think they really do feed into each other in a big way. They’re different, but definitely complementary.
Jean : Yeah, I love that you said that.
Alison : That’s sort of perfect. Like when you’re talking about your niece, right? Like the fact that now they’re in a different place across the board, but.
Bill: Right.
Alison : So interesting that now they have a new baby, you know.
Bill: It’s just a different and a different appreciation. So one of the very worst things that happened in my life was we lost a different side of my family, different part of my family, we lost a niece to cancer before she turned 30. And it was brutal. Awful. Never get over it. But, you get through those things and have a sense of sense of empathy and concern, and when I know of someone who has cancer or a similar type of challenge, I approach it totally differently. I’m a better person for it. I would give anything for it to have not happened. But again, these things happen and it’s what you take from it and what you can grow, how you can grow from it- i think that is important. Um, and again, these awful things are going to happen, but it’s how do you how do you deal with how do you, um, take that into the future and try to make yourself a better person and help others? I remember this happened shortly… She passed shortly before the pandemic, and I remember when people were getting grief for wearing masks, and she’d had a type of cancer where she had bone marrow transplants so she’s incredibly vulnerable, we wore masks way before the pandemic…. You couldn’t get near her without a mask and gloves and everything else, and people get grief for it. And I thought to myself, you don’t know if they have someone at home who’s completely compromised. You don’t know anything about them or why they’re wearing masks. You know? Stop. You know. You just get a different perspective. That that never leaves you, I think, and it can be a real positive.
Jean : Yeah.
Alison : Can you tell me, do you think it’s going to seem like such a weird question? Do you think there’s a place for pessimism?
Bill: great question. I think there’s a… No. I think there’s a place for realism. I think there’s a place for, or– I see pessimism and more as sort of a frame of mind and a general worldview. And I don’t think there’s much of a place for that. I think there’s an absolute place for, again, realism, for knowing that bad things are going to happen, for being worried about. There are plenty of things to be worried about what’s going on in Washington right now, in my opinion. Um, but to then but to then let that spiral you into, oh, it’s always going to be bad. There’s nothing I can do about this when I, when the reason I’m doing this work. So we have kids now 28 and 30, and they have friends who will say, why would I have kids? The world’s going to end in 30 years.
Alison : Yes.
Bill: If you get to that point, then why bother with anything? Why not just keep driving the big car? Keep…. You know, don’t worry. Yeah. Climate change is happening. It’s. It’s a done deal. We’re screwed. You know, to me, the apathy comes from pessimism, not from optimism. Some people think, or if you’re optimist, you just sit around and just assume things are going to get better. I actually think it’s it’s the total opposite. If you’re a pessimist, you just sit around and just assume it’s going to keep getting worse. Why? Why bother? So, um, I don’t think there’s much place for pessimism, but I think there’s a there’s definitely a place for, you know, informed realism. And, and, you know, if you’re a leader of any organization, I think you have to be an optimist. But you you can’t say, hey, we’re starting this semiconductor company tomorrow, and in two years we’re going to be worth more than Nvidia. That’s stupid. No one’s going to listen to you. That’s unrealistic.
Alison : Yeah
Bill: You’re not being a pessimist, to say that we’re not going to be worth more than Nvidia in two years. But you’re being a rational optimist- is one of the terms that is often used. Um, hope that answers your question.
Alison : No, that was good. Thanks.
Jean : Yeah, that was great. Um, I was curious. Do you have, like, a spiritual background to you, Bill, that you were raised in or something?
Bill: Yeah, yeah. I don’t talk about it much on the show, but I’m a Christian. I was raised, uh, my my father, my late father was Catholic. My mom’s Presbyterian. So I was raised, you know, with one, one part of the family went to Catholic mass and the other went to Presbyterian. But I believe there’s definitely a higher being, and I believe, um, yeah… So I definitely have a religious framework. I don’t I don’t lead with it in my work. Um, but yes I do.
Jean : Yeah. And do you. And do you have a spirit like a a morning ritual?
Bill: Yes, I will read scripture. I’ll listen to it. I will, um, I often write down a couple of things I’m grateful for. I do some meditation. The name blue Sky for the podcast comes from the prompt that there’s there’s always blue sky above. Sometimes you have to get your head above the clouds to see it. So I do all that. I’m a morning person, so that’s my time to do all that sort of stuff. And then and then just try to live my day in ways that fulfill the things I thought about that morning as best I can, in a very imperfect way, but as best I can.
Alison : That’s that’s beautiful. You you do a talk on, um, uh, ROI?
Bill: Yes.
Alison : And I love that, uh, return on integrity. Can you tell me what you what you think integrity is and the importance of it?
Bill: Yeah. I think, um, that’s a great question. And, uh, yeah, I think integrity is, um, it’s as simple as doing what you say you’re going to do. Being honest, showing up, um, being transparent, being decent. And I was raised by a father, and then I have an uncle and aunt who were very successful, uh, business people who led with extreme integrity. My my late uncle was the CEO of Johnson and Johnson during the Tylenol crisis, where they were extremely transparent and and people thought they were destroying the brand because they pulled it off shelves to save their customers. And they put all the the reason it’s hard to open over-the-counter bottles is because of the Tylenol thing. And he winds up being getting the Presidential Medal of Freedom. And and I watched that happen as a high school kid. He’d call the house and talk to my dad, and they would commiserate and brainstorm and so, so being around people… And then my father was was a very principled, successful guy in the media business and seeing, i just thought that’s how people ran businesses. And I continue to think back to what we were talking about before. Most people who run businesses are really decent, law abiding, hardworking, good people. You don’t read about them. They make movies about Gordon Gekko and documentaries about Bernie Madoff, not the ones doing it the right way. And I think the vast, vast, vast majority of business leaders, big company and small, are good people trying to do the right thing. We just don’t hear about them enough. So return on integrity. I talk about these leaders who succeed not in spite of their integrity, but in large part because of it. And people want to work for honest people. They want to do business with honest people. And over time, that that wins out.
Alison : Yeah. See, that’s you know, I think right now we’re in a little bit of an integrity crisis.
Bill: Yes.
Alison : Because we’re being modeled Old, um, on many levels. Uh, you know, the opposite of integrity. Almost.
Bill: I agree.
Bill: I agree, yeah. And that and I get I bristle sometimes when people hold up certain people as these great business people successful this and and I don’t always see the evidence of that and I think, yeah, I think I think and that’s one of the things that leads to, to pessimism or disappointment these days is sort of, you know, where the role models, what are we what are we trying to model to young people? Um, and again, I think that’s that’s reason to continue to stay informed of what’s going on, but not be so obsessed with it. And use, use things you disagree with as a, as a teaching opportunity. If you’re raising kids or, you know, be honest about it. You know what? This isn’t okay. I don’t I don’t agree with talking to people that way. Don’t, you know, don’t take the bait. I interviewed a guy named Kevin Kelly who left me with all kinds of great wisdom and aphorisms… And one was, you don’t have to attend every argument you’re invited to. And I think there’s a tendency now where something happens, that boy, I better have an opinion. I better lob it. I better get on Instagram and tweet about it, or get on Twitter and tweet about it. You know, and it’s just it’s not healthy. And a lot of us don’t know a lot about a lot of things that are going on. And yet we feel like we have to form that hot take opinion. It’s not it’s not a good way to live.
Alison : No.
Jean : I think this day and age is forcing us to be our own role model.
Bill: Yeah.
Jean : Like, you know, for our homes, our homes and then our communities, and then that mushrooms out.
Bill: Yeah, exactly. It’s that circle of influence I again, I was I was shaped more by my dad and and close family than I was, you know, reading books about Abraham Lincoln or, you know, those those meant a lot to me… But day to day, what I saw were, were the people under, under the roof I was living in and, um, people I saw at Thanksgiving and Christmas time and that sort of thing… More than public figures, for sure.
Alison : And I think, I think even if you in your home don’t have that model, do you, do you agree that, um, when you move in an optimistic way or a kind way, it feels different than when you don’t? Like intuitively, you know, you know, I know when I, when I am at like my kids always make fun of me because I get to know the waiter and I’m chatting with…
Bill: Why not?
Alison : And yeah, I’m just wondering do you think that?
Bill: Oh yeah. You do feel better. Um, I so I for a couple of years I ran the Weather Channel companies, and when I left, I was fortunate to leave on my own terms. So it’s sort of like you get to go to your own funeral, you know, you leave and people can write you notes and stuff. And I got a note from a person kind of junior in the organization who said, I really appreciated your leadership and I always appreciate how you said, “hi” to me in the cafeteria.
Alison : Wow.
Bill: I thought why wouldn’t I say, ” hi” to you in the cafeteria? But you realize, and I think that’s more expectation than reality. But maybe it’s reality. A lot of people in senior positions don’t say hi to people in junior positions. I can’t understand that. Um, but the guy thought to write that in a note to me. I’ve never forgotten it because I just thought, man. Um, yeah. So I think I think living your life that way, it makes you feel good. And you can tell this way, it makes other people feel good. Again, I mean, I’m in New York.., i go to this Whole Foods, it’s like crazy, and they’re checking out so fast and they’re and they’re great at what they’re doing, and you just and they have name tags and you’ll say, Jean, how’s your day going?
Alison : Yeah.
Bill: And it’s like they’ve been hit with a taser and then they smile and then they tell you, yeah, it’s been a little slow today, you know… But it’s better to be slow than be, you know, it’s just something. And it takes 10 seconds.
Jean : Yeah, it’s that connection.
Bill: It doesn’t take much.
Jean : Yeah.
Bill: And in jobs like that, usually you’re, you’re just catching grief, and so it’s a little thing… But you know, why not.
Alison : And you don’t realize the impact you’re having. Like you’re walking through the cafeteria, you’re just saying hi and you’re not realizing, you know, I think that’s I think that’s such a great thing.
Bill: Yeah. It’s simple.
Alison : Yeah. Very, very simple.
Jean : Bill, is your wife on board with all of your, uh, see the glass half full rather than half empty?
Bill: Yeah, she is. I mean, she’s not doing this for her, for her living now, but she, um. Yeah, she is, no doubt. And, she’s just a really decent, good person. I mean, again, we and I don’t want to…. And she rolls her eyes sometimes because she wants to make sure, you know, make sure people know you come home in a bad mood sometimes, i mean it’s not all, you know, rose colored glasses and everything. But no, she’s she’s definitely on board. And I think and it’s fun now because now that I’m doing this work, people will feed me ideas or stories. So she was reading an article yesterday in the New York Times Magazine. She’s like, oh, you got to talk to this person. It’s this guy who’s working with incarcerated youth and finding them employment and getting them back on their feet under them. And so, a couple of years ago, she would have read that and said, oh, this. You know, she might have shared it with me or but now it’s like, oh, you got to talk to this person. You know, we’re looking again looking for those stories, which is a great way to be.
Alison : Do you have any story just that you can tell us that’s really affected you in terms of maybe someone you’ve talked to or your own optimism where something has really– you did speak about your niece, which I think is beautiful, but anything that comes to mind.
Bill: Uh, yeah, I’ll keep names out of this one, but, well, I talk about the podcast. So I interviewed a gentleman named Kevin Adler who’s written a book called, When We Walk By, about the homeless crisis. And he, um, it’s very personal for him because he had an uncle who was schizophrenic who died on the streets. And, uh, and he was close to his uncle because he said somehow his uncle would remember his birthday and send him cards and come for Thanksgiving and stuff. Beautiful book. Wonderful person. And my sister, um, listens to all my episodes, and she said, I’m sending this one to so and so– and so and so is a dear friend of hers from college. And I said, well, why would you send it to her? She said, oh, you probably don’t know this, but she has a brother who’s been missing- schizophrenic on the streets, they believe, somewhere in Northern California. And she has time to listen to it because her mom’s in hospice and she’s at her mom’s bedside… A few days Later, come to find she has told her mom ,,I am, and by the way, this guy’s organization is called Miracle Messages and they help families find people through video. He’ll talk to homeless people to tell their stories on video. Anyway, tells her mom on her basically her dying days. I’m going to find your son. I’m going to find my brother. I found this organization. And by the way, this doesn’t have a totally happy ending. They haven’t found the brother, but she says this to her mom. A few days later, her mom passes and my sister sends me the obituary, which is beautiful story about this woman. And then at the end it says, in lieu of flowers, please consider a gift to, miracle messages. This is all within like ten days. Yeah, of my sister listening to this episode. I’ve connected Kevin with this woman and again, they haven’t found the brother. They may never, but I know that this episode helped her make a promise to her mom to try to find her brother. Her son. Her mom died with maybe a little bit more peace. I mean, it was one of those things where it’s like this little thing…. back to ripple effects.
Jean : Totally.
Bill: That’s one I know about. I don’t know if I’ve had any others that are quite that profound, but that’s what keeps me going. And again, putting a spotlight on a guy like Kevin, who has this incredible organization, wrote this beautiful book, does great things. Oh, another friend confided in me, goes, I’ve got a brother over in Spain, we’re not sure where he is? What was the name of that organization? You know, so that makes getting up and going to work and working on these…
Alison : And you say it doesn’t have a happy ending, but, you know, I think that just the evolution of that seed growing.
Bill: Totally.
Alison : Yeah.
Bill: Yeah. Amazing.
Jean : Well, Bill, we’re we’re coming to sort of an end because we were trying to keep our podcast not so long because we, honestly could talk to you all day.
Bill: Thank you.
Jean : But, um, okay, so we have, uh, our two questions that we, we ask all of our guests..
Bill: Yes, yes.
Jean : Okay. What does insidewink mean to you?
Bill: When I heard the name, I just think of that moment when you’re with a friend or with someone and you know something, and they know something, and something is said or happens, and you just sort of look at each other and give each other that insideWink. I have a dear friend, uh, from college, and we could sit across a big classroom and something could happen…. We wouldn’t have to wink, we would just make eye contact and start laughing.
Jean : Yeah.
Bill: I mean, I can remember a time we both had to leave, came back, started laughing again, or my sister and I in church or something… So when I hear insidewink, that’s kind of what I think about.
Alison : It’s amazing how everyone we ask, it reflects there…. It reflects them so beautifully. So that’s perfect. And then finally, probably the most important question ever- pie, cake or ice cream?
Bill: I love that question because if they’re each solo, it’s ice cream, If there’s pecan pie with ice cream ,I’m going there. But if it’s just if it’s just ice cream. I love ice cream.
Bill: So ice cream.
Alison : Do you have a favorite flavor?
Bill: Uh, I have all kinds– I don’t like, i’m not a, like, into the fruity, like strawberry raspberry. I like, uh, chocolate, uh, toffee. Even peanut butter on occasion. A lot of junk mixed in.
Alison : You’re making me hungry.
Bill: Ben Lewin’s in New York is my new favorite.
Alison : We have one right here. It’s so much trouble.
Bill: Yeah, exactly.
Bill: And they have pretty adventurous flavors, and they’re always as good as they sound.
Alison : Yeah.
Jean : Yes.
Alison : Thank you so much. We’ve enjoyed listening.
Bill: That was great. Thank you. Keep up the amazing work.
Jean : All the best to you.
Bill: You too. thanks for having me…
Alison : bye.
Alison : I just liked how clear he was, and I like that he said, um, that his wife was like, make sure they know you come home in a good in a bad mood sometimes, you know?
Jean : That was. That was great. But, you know, I was thinking, even before we did the interview, to dedicate your life, like, okay, I’m just going to champion optimism. What a great way to focus on the good. I mean, when you and I do that, but I definitely have times when I don’t focus on the good. I mean, we do that for the podcast and I in general am positive, but to– I haven’t, I don’t think I’ve taken it on as well as…
Alison : It was interesting that he was like, uh, my wife is on board, but it’s not what she does for work, because I realized it’s what he does for work.
Jean : Right, right.
Alison : Do you know? Yeah. It’s, um. And I love the name of it, you know, the the Optimism Institute, right? Like, he’s just very clear in his mission, which I like. And he’s so open and, you know, friendly and affable. I really had so much fun today.
Jean : He was great. And he has wonderful people on his podcast. He puts out a new podcast every week. Wow. Um, and and the stories when I was flipping through it, they’re they’re beautiful. Yeah. So, um, if you have the time and you do listen to podcasts, obviously you do, because you’re listening to ours, but please check out..
Alison : The blue sky.
Jean : The blue sky.
Alison : And I think, um, I think too, the idea of the connections and the importance of connections and hearing the kindness. Um, when I was listening to his podcast, I was so taken with the fact that he’s right– there are many, many, many people doing good in the world, in small and large, and we just have to be open up to it.
Jean : Yeah, that’s for sure.
Alison : You know, so let’s all today choose to be one of those people.
Jean : Look for the good.
Alison : Look for the good. That’s right. And then share it.
Jean : Exactly.
Alison : Have a great day.
Jean : Bye bye.