Jean: Hi, there.

Alison: Are you. Are you, um. Are you feeling good about your public speaking?

Jean: Never.

Alison: Not at all.

Jean: Never. It is not my thing. But, uh.

Alison: But you’re very good at it.

Jean: You’re very good at it. But I think because you have.

Alison: I’m more used to it…

Jean: you’re more used to it beacause you have an actor’s training background. But I am really looking forward to talking with our guests today… Linda Ugelow.

Alison: Yep. She’s great. She wrote a book called, Delight in the Limelight. Overcome your fear of being seen and realize your dreams. And it’s more than just public speaking. This book about.

Jean: Yes,

Alison: It’s really about coming into your own worth, right?

Jean:  just feeling, uh, good about the person that you are.

Alison: Right. And she has she has a lot going on. She does Podcasts. She’s a writer and she’s a

Jean: Dancer.

Alison: Right.. She’s a speaker. She helps people increase their confidence. Yeah. Yeah. She’s got stuff. She’s got stuff.

Jean: We’re gonna hang out with her for a long time.

Alison: That’s right. That’s right. And we’re taking notes. I think you’re going to really enjoy it. Here’s Linda.

Linda: Hi. I didn’t realize you guys are going to be in the same room.

Alison: Yeah, we’re always in the same room.

Linda: That’s so cool. How fun is that?

Jean: Yeah. We are so blessed. We live very close to each other.

Linda: And where is that?

Jean: We live in Studio City, California.

Linda: Um.

Jean:  about five minute drive to each other.

Linda: How fun is that?

Alison: Well, thank you so much for joining us. This is very exciting for us because I’m an actor and Jean has to talk a lot in public and loves it.

Linda: Lucky you all.

Jean: I could have used your book, uh, quite a few years ago, but it was beautifully written, Linda. And, um, so thank you for for taking the time to write this book and to really, it’s so much more than just a, um, how to get, you know, it’s it’s such a soul, um, evolving book. It really gets underneath everything. And, um, but before we get into that, uh, would you like to tell us a little bit about your journey? Yeah, about fear of speaking.

Linda: Uh, sure.

Jean: And what prompted you to write this wonderful book?

Linda: Yes, yes. For sure. I, I grew up speaking very little. I was a good listener. I was the quiet one. Everybody else were the people who took up all the space, right? And it wasn’t until I was in grad school that anyone asked me to speak on anything, really. I mean, of course in school I probably had to do something, but the the first time I remember was in grad school. I was studying some movement therapy modalities, and there was one in particular that I was so passionate about. And my my advisor said, you know, you should give a talk to, you know, the school about it. I assumed she was meaning the students. And when I walked in that day, it was all the faculty and my blood pressure just like went rose up, I my mouth got so dry. Bone dry. I opened my mouth. Not a word came out. I couldn’t utter a single sound even to ask for water. And I was so mortified and my advisor did notice my dilemma. She brought me water. The sound came back, but I never felt like I got over that. Afterwards, I just felt like I wanted to crawl under the covers for a year. And I decided I’d never speak in public again. And I didn’t it for ten years. However, during that same time, I was a performer myself in with a women’s world music group. Oh, and I was on stage a lot. I was the principal dancer. I was a singer, you know, mostly inside a group, but occasionally solos.

Linda: But I hated having to introduce a song. I hated it. You know, we kind of joked how some people had the gift of gab and they would just go, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, yada yada about every song. And the rest of us would be like, memorizing, but like really nervous. And it wasn’t really something that I ever paid attention to until I became an online entrepreneur, when I decided to become an online coach, and once I built a website, I took a coaching course. I needed to build a following and at that time it was 2015. It seemed that video was the best way to go about it. So I started to take a lot of video courses to just get comfortable with it, which was very, very hard earned. I felt being a performer worked against me. It was like I was performative all the time. I didn’t know how to talk naturally. And when I finally, after taking a number of video classes, I made my first public video. But before sending it out, I sent it to a friend of mine and she said, Linda, I hate to say this to you, but it doesn’t sound like you. It doesn’t sound like the person who calls me up on the phone and chats with me, and I knew what she meant, but I didn’t know how to get out of that. Around the same time, my video mentor said, you know, there’s this incredible new technology called live streaming. This is 2015, and I don’t know if you gals remember periscope.

Alison: I do, I do.

Linda: You do?

Alison: Yeah. It was like the first one.

Linda: Yes. Yes. I think there was another one called meerkat. But no, no one used meerkat. Maybe just the some geeks. So. Yeah. So she they all the marketing guru said you got to get on periscope daily to build a following. So I thought, okay, I’m terrified, but I’m going to do this because I’m sure after a few weeks I’ll get comfortable and I’ll feel relaxed and and it was terrifying. I felt like I was hyperventilating, my heart was racing, my mouth was dry again. But I because of my background in expressive arts therapy and movement therapy, I knew how to like, breathe deeply and do affirmations and meditation and power poses and all that stuff. So I would spend like 45 minutes every single day, and then I’d write my notes that things I’m going to talk about and, and get on And then the next day I do the same thing. And so the weeks go by. I get to ten weeks and I’m thinking, wait a minute, why is my heart still pounding?

Jean: Yeah.

Linda: And I thought, I’m showing up, I’m getting on. But every single day I have to manage my anxiety.  I don’t want to have anxiety. How can I get rid of it?  That’s when I decided, you know, I looked at my background. I said, okay, you’ve got 35 years of being on stage, you have this master’s degree, you got to have some tools. So I made a list of all the tools I had, and one of the tools on my list was called focusing, something I had learned in grad school about kind of somatizing an issue. So I closed my eyes and I asked if the fear could talk. What would it say? And what came back was, you’re going to be attacked. And I Wondered, is this like cellular memory of being attacked on the Serengeti? Or is this my life? And suddenly memories came back to me of my sisters ganging up on me, kicking me in the shins, holding me on the ground to torture tickle me. When? Anytime mom put me in the center of attention, she would say. Linda’s such a good girl. Why can’t you girls be more like Linda?

Alison: Yeah.

Linda: And then it was like, well, duh. Of course, I’m not comfortable being the center of attention because I learned it was dangerous. And then all of a sudden it was like, oh, that’s what this is about. It’s not about getting on camera. It’s not about like, being afraid of talking to people who are nice that are sitting in front of you. It’s getting triggered from experiences that we had. Now, maybe it wasn’t, you know, that you had two jealous sisters, but, you know, you could have been bullied or you felt on the outside, or you were hurt or injured or rejected or ignored or shamed in public. And any number of things can create that feeling of no one likes me or no one wants to hear from me. I’m not worthy. I’m not as good as that other person that creates this sense of, it’s not safe to be seen. It’s not safe to be heard.

Alison: Right? What was interesting when I read your book, because I was always taught, just manage it, like as an actor, just manage it. Get over it. Jessica Tandy threw up every time she went on stage. Just do it like, you know. And when I, when I was reading your your work, I realized, oh, I think my I still get afraid when I have to go for an audition or act or do something. And I realized it was about, I’m an only child, and I had to be at a very high level of expectation. And I realized, oh, it’s because I have to be really great at it.

Linda: In order to be good enough. Right.

Alison: Right. And so I realized, oh, that’s what that like for I’m old. I’m 67, you know. And I realized, oh my gosh, that’s what that’s been all those years. So I love that you’re doing this sort of deeper dive and not just telling us to like, put lipstick on a pig.

Linda: Well, you know, that’s what everyone says to me. And I think that’s the issue when the speaking coaches are people who have always felt comfortable because they don’t know what it’s like on the other side and I think the reason why a lot of people come to me is because they feel I understand what it’s like because, I do. Yeah. Of what? What it’s like I didn’t get over my fear of speaking till I was 60. I’m 70 now.

Alison: You are not 70.

Linda: I am.

Alison: You are living right in Bedford.

Linda: Sexy at 70? Yeah.

Alison: You are just glowy.

Jean: Yeah.

Linda: Well, you know, this is part of the learning. It’s like, how can we find the best moment to moment experience that we can and bring that with us wherever we go, whether we’re on stage or on camera or at a networking event or at a party or working at our desk. And of course, I have my struggles too. I, in fact, just today I was chatting with an old drumming teacher of mine, and he was sharing ways that he has struggled to get comfortable speaking. He was a professor and and also a performer, and they each have had their own journey. And I was thinking, yeah, I’ve had a different journey for getting comfortable being seen dancing. I’ve had a different journey around my singing. I’ve had a different journey about writing and putting out my writing. And I have a different journey about speaking confidence. And, and, you know, people will say, well, it’s weird because I feel comfortable maybe when there’s an audience there, but I’m not comfortable when I have to look at a lens. And then there will be people who say the opposite, and then some people will say, I feel comfortable with, you know, a couple of people, but not a thousand. And then I’ve had people who come and they tell me the opposite. Yeah. Or people who are comfortable with their peers, but not elders and others. Elders, but not their peers. And it all depends on what are our unique personal conditioning that we had from, you know, a combination of our home life or school life, social media, religious, cultural, you know, where we grew up. All these things play a part.

Alison: That’s amazing.

Jean: It is. It is. So, you know, your work is so liberating. And and one of the things you wrote, Linda, was that fear, fear is a protective mechanism, but it’s also a gift.

Alison: Fear, fear.

Jean: What did I say?

Alison: Gift a gift.

Jean: I’m sorry. And, um and I do want to talk about that because to think of fear as a gift. So why why that I, I read it so I love it. But share that.

Linda: Yeah, it’s because without this fear, we wouldn’t realize those areas of our life that are asking to be healed, that are asking to be resolved. And this is actually why I like working with people who want to speak because they’re motivated to clean up their stuff. Yeah, we all have stuff. There’s no one on the planet that doesn’t. But when you are wanting, when you feel like you’ve got a message, when you feel like you want to make an impact and you have that motivation, you’re willing to do what it takes. And so if I didn’t have this fear of speaking, I wouldn’t realize that I’d been carrying this stuff around for my sisters all my life. All my life. And the crazy thing is, when I first when it first occurred to me, I was thinking, but we’ve been friends for decades. Do I still feel this way? Am I still worried that if I succeed in some way, they won’t love me? And I listened inside and I thought, oh holy moly, yes, I still feel that way. I’m afraid to shine.

Alison: Yeah.

Linda: That they’re going to think. Who does? Who does she think she is?

Jean: Yeah. And that that also can lead to the fear of abandonment. You know, there’s so many the layers of fear, you know, it’s like, wow.

Linda: And that’s why it’s so complicated. And it feels like this big, humongous mountain in front of you because there’s so many interconnected tangles in it. You know, I say, you know, the experiences kind of glom together.  So usually it’s not one experience. I also was bullied, you know, at school in seventh grade, all the girls decided, I don’t know why. Nobody talked to Linda. And for four days, no one talked to me. And that was life impacting. And, you know, I never went to a high school reunion until 40 years later because I was thinking, I don’t want to be around these people. These people didn’t want me. I don’t want them. Right. Of course, I kind of let go of that. And I thought, okay, I wonder who who these people are even are today. And what blew me out of the out of the water was, you know, so many people came up and they said, oh, Linda, I remember when you did this, I remember this dance event or I and they would tell me specific things and I would look at them and I’d think, I don’t even know your name.

Alison: Wow.

Linda: Because what happened was when I felt that, you know, I was hurt in this way, I put on blinders. It was like I stopped looking around me, I stopped observing. I was like, in my own world because it felt that’s.. That was my coping mechanism.

Jean: Right, right.

Linda: And how ridiculous. And now, you know, I’ve been back again for the 50th, and people are so nice. And it’s like, I don’t even remember who those girls were who concocted that thing.

Alison: Yeah.

Linda: But, you know, a single comment can last a lifetime, for better or for worse. And so the gift is that we see what these things are and we can clean them up. We can resolve them. And it doesn’t mean five years of therapy. There are lots of modalities that are out there. I name a number of them in my book that I use in my programs and with my clients. But, you know, right now I’m promoting a program, The Delight in the Limelight Accelerator. And it’s ten weeks. You can get over this in ten weeks.

Alison: Yeah. See that’s great. Do you, when you are working with somebody, are the modalities to get through different if it’s, uh, different types of fear or is there like a general sort of program to help you heal.

Linda: Well, I feel like there are different areas of attention that we need to do, but it’s not it’s not about like, oh, if you were bullied, you do something different than if you were ignored or your parents weren’t around, or you moved around a lot and felt on the outside. No, those the modalities work no matter what.

Alison: That’s great. And so do you find that you’ve healed from the kicking and the shins time?

Linda: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I, I was over it in five days. Once I realized that I had all this stuff. I, I had tools to work with it, and it was kind of like, I can’t believe I’ve had these tools for years. If I only knew I had stuff to clear away, I would have done it ten years ago.

Alison: Right.

Linda: But it never occurred to me because you look online. And what do they tell you? Feel the fear and do it anyway. Practice more. Um, if you have, you know, if you practice over and over, you’ll be fine or do some deep breathing or do a power pose, or pretend your fear is excitement or, you know, it’s all these. It’s not like any of those things are bad, but they’re not going to get to the root cause, right? So yes, I, I was over my fear in five days.

Alison: That’s fantastic.

Jean: That is fantastic.

Linda: Now, that’s not to say I wasn’t ever nervous again because I. I remember doing a storytelling slam, um, and I had a week to memorize it, and I was nervous because I didn’t know if I had it memorized. But that’s different than being afraid to be seen and heard. It’s kind of like, okay, am I going to, like, have the capacity and the mental focus to, to get through this because it’s not really inside me. And you know, that as being, you know, actors or on the stage or how that can be. So I, I feel like, yeah, if you’re not prepared, that’s going to cause some anxiety, but that’s different than being afraid of being seen and heard.

Alison: I think I think what you’re describing is a technical fear. Yeah. And then there’s like a heart fear. Mhm. It’s like, you know that thing that everyone used to say to me, just picture everyone naked.

Linda: As if that would be distracting. I mean, if you could do that. First of all I, I’ve tried that. It’s like, that doesn’t even work for me. But but if it did, I would find that extremely distracting and not focusing.

Alison: And not everyone I want to I don’t even barely want exactly that. So, you know, like, I just really.

Linda: Yeah.

Alison: So I love I love that you’re saying that we can all manage this because I think that’s like, for me,

Jean: or Get over it.

Alison: Right.  Like for me, it’s not so much being in front of an audience or any of that, but it’s at being at parties. I’m, I don’t they frighten me. I don’t know ever want to say I’m just eating cheese the whole night. Like I just can’t not do, you know? Like, it’s hard for me. And so I really want to work with this to get over that.

Linda: Absolutely. Yes. Yes. And I feel like you you absolutely can. And it’s a it’s a very meaningful place of our lives to learn to feel like really at home at a party because, I mean, you know, this is a gathering of people, it’s community, and it can be very meaningful if we feel comfortable. But there are a lot of issues at a party. For instance, a lot of people take up air time and they don’t have awareness of how to share it. So there can be issues like that or there can be…. I know for myself, I, I would feel comfortable doing something on stage, but not something in public  off this stage. Why? Because on stage, it’s a contract, that you have the right to take up the space. But to tell a lengthy story at a party and command that attention, it’s like, who am I to do that? So it’s it’s different. There are different elements at play that can create a sense of I don’t know how to do this, so it’s worth it for I mean, I would say, you know, think about what is it that you’re worried about?

Jean: Yeah. Yeah.

Linda: I mean, and then and then you take those things and then you trace it back.

Jean: Right and, you know, the beautiful thing too, is that we all have, as Allison says, our bag of rocks. You know, we we all have… I mean, I shouldn’t say we all… I don’t want to use absolutes, but most of us have fears. You know, whether it’s being abandoned, whether it’s not being liked. One, I just I mean, there were so many, but I really related to your imposter syndrome.

Alison: Yeah.  Could you talk about that a little bit for us? Because I think a lot of people have that, especially nowadays with so much social media.

Linda: A lot of times people think of imposter syndrome as like, I don’t know what I’m doing. That’s not really imposter syndrome, because if you’re doing something new, of course you don’t know what you’re doing. That’s about learning to have a beginner mindset and being comfortable being a beginner, which is admittedly really hard for us because, you know, like all all you need to do is like, say, okay, let’s, uh, draw a dragon and people are like i’m not an artist, you know. Oh my God. And as if it’s a big thing. And we’re so paralyzed by that.

Alison: Right.

Linda: So being able to say, okay, I don’t know what I’m doing because I don’t do art, but. And just do it. We we make it a this like we put this pressure on ourselves to be somewhere else than we are that I don’t consider imposter syndrome. I consider that a beginner um, being able to honor and accept being a beginner. Yeah. Where I do feel like it comes up is that no matter what you do, you’re not good enough, right? So the person who I had a client whose parents were never pleased with her unless she came home with a perfect report card or an award, and even then, it only lasted about 20 minutes. And then they would be mon that this was their daughter. Why did God give this person to them? She’s so awful and she had no idea what was what was wrong with her. But she grew up feeling like no matter how many awards she has, no matter how many accolades, no matter how many people thought she was wonderful and actually everyone in her life thought she was wonderful. And she was a consultant for a big energy company. So she had a big, high powered job, but she said she was in a panic all the time that someone’s going to find out she’s a fraud.

Linda: Why? Because the two people that were most important in her life, she was never good enough for. So no matter what she did, she always felt like that was that was her wound she was carrying around. So it can happen when you are pressured to be perfect, right? It can happen. I’ve had, um. Oh, I had this, uh, author Tricia Montalvo Timm, on my podcast, um, delight on the limelight. And she is a Latina. Her parents were immigrants. They told her, don’t tell anybody that you are Latina because there’s so much discrimination. So she hid that from everybody. And she felt I felt like, I was a fraud. Nobody knew who the real me because I’m hiding it, because I had always been told not to do it. And she had this amazing career very, very high up. And then she said, I feel like I’m a total fraud. The other thing that she, she talked about was, uh, affirmative action. Because if you, I mean, in and of itself, it’s not necessarily a problem. But if you have other people who don’t agree with this policy and they say you stole somebody else’s job, you’re only here because of that policy that makes you feel like you’re a fraud.

Jean: Yeah, sure.

Linda: I had someone I worked with from, um, Intel who had a very similar experience. She wasn’t a, um, a minority, but she was, she had applied for like a gifted kids program when she was, I don’t know, third grade or something like that. She didn’t get in, but her father was on the school board and got her in. And one day a boy turned to her as they’re walking to the gifted kids classroom. You’re not supposed to be here. You’re only here because your dad got you in. And here she is, this high level HR senior manager still carrying this wound. Yeah, I feel like I’m not really supposed to be here.

Alison: And you know, what you’re saying is so I think poignant right now, what you just mentioned about we’re living in a world right now, I think, where people are feeling more attacked by social media and feeling that if I’m afraid to say what I think, I’m afraid to do something because they could be cancelled. I could get, you know, threats like backlash. Yeah. Do you have any suggestions for how to maneuver through these times? Because I know so many people that are deeply upset.

Linda: Yes. It’s a very challenging time. And and I like to say that this doesn’t mean that there aren’t toxic environments. And we do live in a, in a dangerous environment in many ways. I, I see the biggest problem of the divide and I think for at least the way that I look at it, I see how can I cross the divide. And I think it has to do with listening to each other and asking questions and being willing to being willing to hold space for one another. And and remember, there was a time even in our country where, I mean, I remember being a kid and my parents had an election night party. They invited all their friends. They had a picture of Nixon and they had a picture, a picture of, i guess it was Kennedy.. And and they all came together and they watched the election night results together.. You would never have that here.

Alison: No.

Linda: So we need to remember that. And there was a time that even in the government, people worked with each other across the divide. And now it is a divide that is hardly, hardly, um, that hardly ever meets.  so I, I believe that it’s about how can I be brave. And and reach out and be open minded to listen. What are people what are people’s concerns? And I think in terms of like doing that, I think it’s it’s about like listening and not responding. Really it’s about like what what are the issues that are most concerning to you these days or what? What are, you know, in your what are your circles talking about and why is that? You know, what are what are they listening to? And you know what feels most painful or tender?

Jean: Yeah. And because I also think that really communicating through your heart is so important now more than ever. And you, you know, reading your, some of your work and, you know, really, um, empowers this whole our whole communication, how we address situations. Um, and to your point, Alison, I think it’s really important where we live in now to use our voices because so many of us have never really had to just go along with the status quo.

Linda: Right, right. I think that’s so important, Jean. And it’s it’s about that’s why I think it’s so important for us to share our stories. Yeah. Like, this is important to me because of this. This is what happened to me in my life. And so these kinds of things are important to me. And I think one of the benefits that I have gotten being a coach is that I hold space for a lot of people. I hear a lot of their stories, and I feel like that’s helped me hold space for people who come from different places. You know, one of the things that, um, you may not know about me, but my husband’s Hungarian and we spend a lot of time in Hungary, um, and I’ve done a lot of traveling. And it occurred to me that when I, when I traveled around the world when I was 23, I, I read about, well, how do people, you know, what are the values or what are the expectations in Burma or in Hong Kong or in, in India, and I try to move through those countries with as much um um, what what am I looking for? Uh, respect   as I could. And there were countries that treated women like, you know, they were second class citizens. They had different kinds of laws. They had very, very different practices when it came to, let’s say, uh, birth control or free speech or any of these things. But, I would go in there and I would accept it because I was a visitor to their country.

Jean: Right. Yeah.

Linda: We don’t do that here. We could do that here. We could treat each other like I’m a visitor to your country. Let me learn about your values. Let me learn about your perspective,  the rules you live by the the things that are important to you. We could do that statewide, we could do that, um, party wise, we could do that community wise. We could do that neighbor wise, you know? But it’s interesting that I don’t think that people have a problem. Let’s say, oh, I’m going to Saudi Arabia, where women aren’t allowed to drive, or maybe they are now, but whatever. And they’re not going to, like, make a huge stink, go in there and make a huge stink about it. But we do that here because we expect everybody to think the same way. And that’s just not realistic.

Alison: Yeah. And what you said when I said I was afraid of parties and you said, what are you afraid of? That question and that curiosity, I think saying that to someone that has a different idea than you is enough to start a conversation that is vulnerable?

Linda: Yes.

Alison: Do you know? It’s a great question. What are you afraid of? Could you give our listeners, because I really want them to read your book, but can you give our listeners a couple of tips about how to get over maybe going to a party or someone that has to speak in public? Is there something that they can do, like just a little tip?

Linda: I think the the tip that I love to give, and I think it’s so important that it was in chapter two of my book, like right up front is mental rehearsal visualization. So let’s say you’re going to a party, jean, I would say imagine how you would love to feel at that party. How would you love to feel in your body? How would you love to, like, express yourself? How would you love to like interact with the people around you? How would you like, like, what’s the expression on your face? Yeah. You know, how do you like, how does your voice sound? Like, what’s the energy that you’re exuding? And when you when you create this kind of visualization, you’re pre paving the way of it happening. And it gives you the image, the, the, the idea of how you can be and you can step into it.

Alison: What a different thing than saying this is going to be terrible.

Linda: Yes, it’s quite different. And but, I love that you bring that up because the thing is we’re always mentally rehearsing, but we’re often mentally rehearsing the things we don’t want.

Alison: Yes.

Jean: So excuse me. That is so true. We’re so accustomed to going to the negative, you know, and and somewhere in, in, uh, your writings, you said you have to stop and take time, take a pause. Because we’re on automatic. These fears are like, automatic. And it’s like, wait a second, I feel triggered. What’s going on here? Asking the questions, being curious.

Alison: And a negative self-talk.

Jean: And the negative self-talk.

Linda: Yeah yeah yeah.

Alison: Do you still have that voice in your head?

Linda: I have, I do have some voices that I like, just for a number of years I’ve been working with this particular line that goes through my head that I feel like finally, just this in the last couple of months, I’ve turned it around. And it is. Linda, you’re so slow.

Alison: Mhm.

Jean: I have the same thought. Linda.

Linda: You do?

Jean: I feel like I, I’m slow. I’m so I feel like I surround myself or have surrounded myself with very quick people and I feel I process things slower.

Alison: Is that what you’re saing?

Jean: Is that what you’re saying?

Linda: Well it’s like I felt like it took me four years to write my book. It’s taken me ten years to kind of like get my business, you know, organize the way I want it to be. It’s taking, you know, I just feel like I used to feel like everything took me more time. Takes everybody. Well, maybe not everyone. Just like you’re saying. Maybe not everyone. But it takes. You know, I listen to my husband and his business, and he and his brother who run it, uh, have a joke of, oh, if we think it’s going to take two months, it’s probably going to take two years, right?

Alison: Right. Yeah.

Linda: So the and but for a long time I couldn’t tell if that was a mean thought, if that was my inner critic or if that was just fact because it felt like fact to me. But I know it’s it’s not because and I think I was even writing about it in the book, but I still hadn’t kind of gotten a handle on it. I would say, okay, let’s I do something called the Best Friend test. You might have do some version of this where you say the sentence out loud that you think is an inner critic voice, and you put it in the same sentence as someone you care about. So I use my daughter Lexi. So, Lexi, you’re so slow. I wouldn’t say that to her.

Alison: No.

Linda: I would say if she said, I feel like I’m so slow, I’d say, well, actually, I would give her all the reasons why it could be a good thing. Like, maybe some things just take more time. Maybe you need to marinate on it. Maybe, you know, there’s some other pieces of information that you need before you can move forward. Or, you know, it can be any number of things that we can find the best way of feeling. But it is my commitment to always find the best way of feeling. It’s just like sometimes it’s slower.

Jean: I love that. That’s great Linda.

Alison: And I love that you said, uh, I didn’t know if it was fact or a bully in your brain. I wonder if I have said that to myself. Oh, that’s just a fact.  Alison, your whatever, you know, and that’s just a fact. Wow. I need to examine that, because that gave me chills when you said that. So that means that that’s something important for me. That’s fantastic. Linda. That’s great. And that’s true. I always try to think I. Jean, would never say that to me. My husband would never say that to me. My kid would never say, you know, you’re whatever. And I think, so why am I saying it?

Linda: Yeah. Yeah. You know, and this, this comes up like, right now I’m just finishing up a short program called Watch Yourself on Video without cringing, which is all about transforming the inner critic. And there are things that we see. I mean, what I love about it, again, the gift, the inner critic has a gift in it, in that it’s showing us what we need to resolve and do better. So there’s nothing like watching yourself on video to bring up all the things that you dislike, you know? Yeah, but you look the way you’re moving, the way you talk, whatever it is. Right? And so it’s an opportunity to examine those things and and see. So what I do is I sort I have people sort their complaints, their dislikes into the things that can be changed and the things that can’t. The Dalai Lama has this beautiful wisdom that says, if something can be remedied, why be unhappy? If something can’t be remedied, why be? What’s the use of being unhappy?

Jean: Yeah, leave it to the Dalai Lama.

Alison: Yeah.

Linda: Yeah.

Alison:  that’s a great quote.

Linda: And and and so at the end, I think it’s actually today, which is day nine, it’s a ten day program. Um, we’re looking at why we honor the inner critic for that very reason. Because without the inner critic, we wouldn’t realize that we’ve got stuff to work on.

Alison: Yeah, yeah. That’s right.

Jean: Exactly.

Alison: And can people find out about your programs on your website?

Linda: Oh, I wish they could do a better job of that. I wish I did a better job, but, you know, I’m slow.

Alison: I don’t even believe in time. So I don’t think you’re.

Linda: Maybe when it. When is this podcast coming out?

Alison: Oh. I don’t know.. Probably the end of the year.

Linda: Okay. So yes, they’ll be able to go to my website and find these things.

Alison: Okay, great.

Jean: Well, I think when you’re slow, you’re very thoughtful.

Alison: Me too. I don’t think they’re slow.

Jean: Yeah. You just really want to make sure everything is good.

Alison: Yes. That’s right.

Jean: I like that reframe. I like that very, very much. There’s one one other thing that I really wanted to bring up that I did talk about in the book, and I am talking about it in this class, and I want to bring it up here because it’s kind of like a bigger picture idea. That is, who benefits when we don’t like ourselves, who benefits when we are afraid to speak up?

Jean: Wow. That’s great.

Alison: No one.

Linda: Maybe someone, but it’s not us. It’s not the people that we’re serving. Maybe it’s the people who want us to behave, or want us to be controlled, or want us to buy things or… But it’s not us. And so I feel like it’s a radical act to learn to love ourselves and to empower ourselves.

Jean: Absolutely.

Alison: You’re dynamo. Huh?

Jean: Yeah.

Linda: Oh. Thank you. Great.

Alison: It’s really fun to talk to you.

Linda: It’s great talking to the two of you.  Oh, my gosh… This is such a treat.

Alison: Who benefits from me not liking myself. Not me!

Linda: And the thing is, it keeps us held in.  You know. So you know, I’m aging too. Zoom does a beautiful job. And, you know, perking us  up a little bit. I also put on a little makeup, but I, i suffer or have suffered from the changes of my body.  Um. And I think, why am I suffering when my daughter looks at me and she thinks I’m beautiful? When my husband finds me attractive, when other people light up because they’re, i’m their friend and they’re happy to see me. Why should I make myself unhappy about myself?

Jean: Exactly.

Alison: Yeah. You know, when my kid was really little and, um, uh,  ran up to me and grabbed me from the back and gave me a big hug and said, mom, I love your big, fat, beautiful bum.  and I gotta tell you, I loved my bottom so much that this little squirt of a person just grabbed it with so much love and didn’t, didn’t, didn’t have any judgment. Yeah, like there was nothing wrong in that.

Linda: And how did that change you? Like, how did how do you feel like you hold yourself and your awareness of your bum now.

Alison: Right. Want to see it? No, I’m just teasing. It’s I, you know, I, I really have not done anything to change my aging because I think I want my kids to see what someone looks like, an Italian person from the Bronx looks like when they’re 80. I just want I think it’s important and I and I don’t mind it … but but I know a lot of people that are like, you know, if you just did Botox, you could really if you just did this or that, and that’s good for them. If it makes someone happy, I love that. But for me, I don’t want to be, i’m not going to pressure someone not to do it, and I don’t want to be pressured to do it.  I want us all to be loved and respected where we’re at. And so I gotta tell you, when Em said that to me, it changed my view. Like, oh, I’m fine.

Linda: Absolutely, absolutely. And it’s kind of like, I feel like we’re we’re able to radiate our beauty. Yeah, we’re able to radiate our energy more when we don’t feel like we’re trying to hide in plain sight.

Jean: Right, right.

Alison: And I know a lot of people that have, have, have done things and they really look lovely. But I think the thing that they really look is confident again or like, um, glowy or more relaxed, like, I’m not sure it’s the fact that I respond to the fact that wrinkles are gone. I more respond to the fact that they did something that they wanted to do.

Linda: And and it gives them a sense of confidence and makes them feel more beautiful. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Alison: And good for it. You know, I think that that’s I think that’s so true. I love that best friend test.

Jean: Oh. And you and I do that for each other. Yes. If you can have a best friend that that you can say this is what I’m thinking and they can go wait a second here, why don’t you reframe it and, um, well, Linda, I feel like your book is it’s such a self love, spiritual book. It’s, uh, a coaching book. You know, you offer.. No matter what you’re where you’r what your bag of rocks are or whatever you absolutely give give a way to release that. Transform it. Yeah. So, um, we’re so grateful.

Alison: And we’re so grateful that you wrote it.

Linda: Well, thank you so much for having me on. So we can chat about these these ideas and transformations. It’s, you know, I feel like speaking, expressing ourselves is our human design.

Alison: Yeah.

Linda: You know, children love to speak. And I feel like that’s my passion. I want people to feel like, happy with their voices as they were when they were little kids.

Jean: Yes. that’s a Gorgeous mission.

Alison: That’s beautiful.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: And we just have two questions as we as we wrap up. And the first one is, is the name of our podcast is Inside wink. What do you think inside wink means?

Linda: To me it’s kind of like a sense of amusement.

Alison: Oh.

Linda: And and I would liken it to if I could, connect it with public speaking.

Alison: Mhm. Sure. Yeah.

Linda: That we can allow ourselves to be imperfect with that inside wink with that little like, forgot the word, forgot what I was going to say, lost my place, you can have an inside wink.

Alison: Oh I love that.

Linda: And and it helps you just like, know that not only is it okay that you made a mistake that you can handle it with. I mean, everyone makes mistakes. It’s how you handle it that makes a difference. And if you handle it with that sense of amusement, then you’re good to go. And also you make yourself so much more relatable because as humans, we that’s where we connect is with these frailties and and imperfections. They make great stories, right?

Alison: Yeah. That’s right.

Jean: Because we’re not all robots.

Alison: That’s right.

Linda: No, we’re not ChatGPT.

Alison: Oh no we’re not.

Jean: And my final question for you, Linda, is do you prefer cake, pie or ice cream?

Linda: Pie. If it’s fruit.

Alison: Oh, wait, you mean like, supposed to like like, uh, chocolate cream pie.

Linda: Exactly.

Jean: a custurd?

Linda: Oh, yeah. I like a custard. I have a pawpaw tree. And I was thinking, oh, I wonder if I could make, like, a pawpaw pie. Like a pumpkin pie. But, you know, as a custard. Yeah.

Alison: That sounds great. Okay, we’re coming over. We’re coming to Bedford.

Linda: You’re welcome. You’re welcome. Next time you’re in town, you gotta come over. I love cooking for people.

Alison: Really?

Linda: Yes.

Alison:  that’s like you, Jean .. She’s a great cook.

Jean: I used to. I don’t cook anymore. I mean, I don’t have, like, people…

Linda: Gene.

Jean: Yeah, yeah I know, thank you.

Linda: say thank you.

Alison: Linda, move in with us.

Jean: Honestly.

Linda: No disclaimers.

Jean: Thank you. Thank you. Allison. Thank you Linda.

Alison: Thank you Linda. Really. This is so much fun.

Jean: You are the delight in the light, as the light. Yeah.

Linda: Well, I, I, I hope to be swimming with, with all these, you know, wonderful people who are, you know, like yourselves who are looking to create a better world.

Alison: Oh. Thank you so much. And in a few years, when you write your next book, we’ll have you on again.

Linda: Okay.

Alison: I would love that.

Linda: Okay. There’s some motivation for me.

Alison: That’s right. Have a great evening there. And thank you so much.

Linda: And thank you as well. Bye Jean, bye, Alison.

Jean: Bye.

Alison: Bye.

Jean: What a lovely woman.

Jean: She was Is great. You know what, Allison? She reminds me so much of, um, the teachings that I learned at Science of Mind -about expressing to yourself why? You know, what’s going on underneath the fear, right? And it’s getting to the root of that rather than just pushing through it. Because Linda’s not about pushing through it, but uncovering what’s, what’s that core wound.

Alison: What’s at the root of it? Right. You know, the reveal and heal and then restoring safety and then repatterning your habits. Right? And I have to say a lot of times, because for me, fear is like, can grab me that sometimes I want to ignore it or push it away or act like, uh, give in to it. And this was just such a great way to remind myself that there’s other there’s other options out there, you know?

Jean: Yeah. And how good you feel after you do. Um, present yourself authentically. I think your life starts feeling richer And more fulfilled. And, um.

Alison: And she talks about thriving.

Jean: Exactly.

Alison: And I think what a great word. We don’t use that word enough. It’s all just like getting by. Let it be. Let it go. What about thriving.

Jean: And I really think that’s how we’re meant to live life. And, uh, so.

Alison: And letting go of, you know, working through these things, working through them because we’re worth it.

Jean: Yeah, We are worth having a life that we can thrive in and feel joy. Absolutely.

Alison: I think that’s I think that’s so important because sometimes you think, oh, is this it? Yeah. Is that all? Is that all there is? as  peggy Lee said I’m dating myself, but she. I thought she was fantastic, So please, please go out and read her book. Delight in the limelight. Even if you’re not like, like public speaking or in the limelight, right?

Jean: Because it really helps you just live a more enriched life.

Alison: Right? Right. Yeah, exactly. That was beautifully put, Jean.

Jean: Thank you. You too. Allison, I’m just looking at the cover of her book.. She’s so vivacious.

Alison: Isn’t she, like, spunky?

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: Yeah, like a spunkathon… Is that even a word? Well. Thank you. Have a great day. And thank you, Jean.

Jean: Thank you, alison.

Alison: Goodbye.

Jean: Bye.

Jean: Alrighty. Well,

Alison: Here we are.  Here we are again. And today, um… Well, first of all, little buddy’s here.

Jean: Yeah, but he just left the the, uh, closet, so we’re  good, and, uh, so today we get to speak to a really wonderful, beautiful person, her name is Bonnie Yee.

Alison: If you say so, i don’t know her. You know her?

Jean: Yes. I met Bonnie on a trip to Egypt when my son Matthew and I went to Egypt in April…. Oh, no. No, it was March of 2022, and, um… And I…

Alison: You hit it off

Jean:  yeah, we got along really well. And then we continued our friendship. And she has really, uh, grown into new spiritual gifts.

Alison: I love that.

Jean: SHe is going to share some of her experience and what it’s about for her.

Alison: Fantastic.

Jean: Yeah,

Alison: I have nothing else to say. Do you? Shall we do it?

Jean: Okay, let’s do it.

Alison: Here we go, here’s Bonnie.

Jean: Bonnie, Hi.

Bonnie: Hi.. How are you?  It’s good to see you again, Jean and hi, Alison… Nice to meet you.

Alison: Nice to meet you, Bonnie. I’ve heard such wonderful things about you.

Bonnie: Well, thank you. I’ve heard about you, too.

Jean: we are really happy you’re here with us today.

Bonnie: Well, I am so happy too. And I’m very grateful  for both of you. For taking, you know, taking the time to make this space so that people can have a place to tune in to where they can receive what they need. So thank you. Ladies, both of you.

Alison: We’re excited. I love I love your website and I, I love what you what you do And maybe you could just tell me, because I’m unfamiliar with you the way you know, jean knows you. Um. What began your journey? Like what?

Bonnie: Oh, goodness. Here. Uh, well, I was just reflecting earlier today.  it’s been like, 12 years. I just started getting little bits and pieces and hints. I was just normal, Jane, and I say just going through life. I had three children and a husband, and we co-owned a business. And just doing the day to day doing what I thought was, you know, what you’re supposed to be doing in this life, this world. Um, and I found myself, even though I had been successful in business and had acquired what most considered, you know, nice things and, and achieved, you know, a certain level, I felt unsatisfied, and I found myself feeling guilty for not being more appreciative. And that sensation became stronger and stronger. And that led to me just starting to ask questions, you know, what am I missing? What’s you know, what’s lacking? And I thought it was something to do with church or religion. So I asked about that. And instead of being guided to a church, I was guided to go within. And and then that led to and I wasn’t actively looking, i didn’t even know what that meant. But I found myself just being drawn to books, podcasts, YouTube. And that trail started, you know, that goes where you just take one step and there it goes. So I first I was guided to Doctor Wayne Dyer. Um, he mentioned Abraham Hicks. it just it was a trail that just went. And so I was learning, you know, how to meditate, how to, you know, uh, you know, apply the law of attraction, just, you know, the beginning, basic stuff.

Bonnie: And I didn’t, you know, have any, um, idea of where this was going or I just, you know, I knew that it felt good and it felt, you know, real. And so I just continued the trail. Um, but I it was a number of years of just kind of, you know, being in that place. I remember I got very lonely there because I didn’t know anybody else that I personally knew that was going through what I was. And my husband, bless his heart, didn’t get it. And so so he wasn’t really somebody I could talk through this with. He tried to, you know, be patient, but it didn’t always work. And so I one day I just said a prayer and I said, I either stopped this or bring me people that, that I can, you know, be with and share this with. And the very next day, two people that I already knew from way back when that I hadn’t seen for years, just appeared. One of them walked in to where I was at, and the other one texted me and both of them, and it was a sentence out of each one of us, and we automatically knew that we were on the same journey. And it was just so it was it was magical. So it just spent a series of just a long series of serendipitous things that have occurred. Um. Nothing planned. Nothing foreseen. Just surprises and and just follow the trail.

Jean: So, Bonnie, when. When I met you in Egypt. So you already were doing some reading on your own, right? You weren’t… Because that was just, like four years.

Bonnie: Reading as far as books?

Jean:  yeah, reading. You know, uh, Wayne Dyer and…

Bonnie: Well, yeah… There was a series of events that took place about seven years ago. My eldest son left this Earth, and that was catastrophic. And and so I had these points where I was thrust into more accelerated awakening. It was slow going for a number of years. But yes, I was reading, i was listening to things. I wasn’t actively doing anything with it, but just observing it. And and it was fascinating. And I was curious as to why I was so fascinated by it, because I didn’t… It was outside… Nobody else in  my family, my realm. No one else I knew was was receiving this or interested in it. So it was it that was unique.

Alison: I think it’s so interesting that you said, um, uh, doing what I thought I was supposed to do and also that, um, you you felt unsatisfied because, I think that I think a lot of people feel that, I don’t know. Do you live in Idaho?

Bonnie: I do, yes.

Alison: Because I saw that on the website that your center was there. And I know here in LA there are so many people that are so successful.

Bonnie: Right.

Alison: And yet they have a real feeling, I think, of, um, discontent or or still this like odd external searching. Is that is that what you meant by?

Bonnie: Yes I spent 30 years chasing a dream, a material, financial, you know, I thought there was an end, you know, an end goal. And that once I arrived there, you know. Ta da!

Alison: Yeah.

Bonnie: And and it it didn’t matter how much I acquired, um, nothing. It just it wasn’t filling a void. And I felt guilty about that. I didn’t know how to deal with it,  so it wasn’t until I kind of started asking. Well, it was when I started asking, going within. Why? Why do I feel like this? That I started to be led to these other resources. And so, yeah, you can acquire all the bobbles and doodles and all the grandeur and, um, it’s it doesn’t feel for me, it did not fill that void, um, and and it wasn’t, and I can say this, looking back from where I’m at now, there is none of that material stuff, none of that, i want awards and accolades from a company, none of that, um, compares to what I feel now when I have the ability to help someone, to truly connect with someone, there is a just a beautiful, beautiful, loving, warm elation that you get when when you’re truly of service. And so I did ask, you know, I was asking for a while. Let me be of service. Let me fill my purpose, fulfill my purpose. And and so it just kept evolving.

Alison: So after you were doing the readings and things, um,  where did that eventually take you? Because what you’re doing now is so involved. Like, how did you make that leap?

Bonnie: I’m,  it was just none of it was planned here it was. I just found, I learned from what I was observing and reading about just to keep following your, you know, following the pull, following the draw, follow what feels… And so I got better and better at not resisting. I was a master resister. I was constantly. I realized now that all of my life I’ve been getting, you know, messages and hints. But I was, you know, it was to do things that were opposite of what everyone else was doing. And so I would push back from that and I would have a, you know, something would draw me in a certain direction. But then everybody else wanted to go over there, and I didn’t want to rock the boat or, you know, seem like the odd person out. So I would make myself go over there with them. And so I spent, you know, decades forcing myself to do what didn’t feel true for me. And I finally was able to let you know bit by bit, it wasn’t an overnight thing, but bit by bit you start, you know, letting go of that and just following your pull.

Alison: Bonnie, it sounds to me that you went through a period of, um, a hard time.

Bonnie: It was, Yeah. I first, um, Oh our, eldest son ended his life. It was sudden, no warning. And so that was a shock. And that day was a huge turning point. I, I was in a surreal, um, he, he, he communicated, he texted me goodbye and we raced out to where we knew he was and, um, found him and it, um, it was it’s just something you can’t even I, I won’t go into it.  But, I found, um, my husband and my daughter were with me when we found him. And there’s a just a trauma that, um… What was interesting is I could see how they were responding and reacting, and I went into a different space. I, um, it was as I, it wasn’t as though I was numb. It was an aspect of me– i was removed from the human body, and I was like a step back and I could witness and see all that was going on. But I was literally in a place of neutrality… It was really unique and strange. And I remember at one point, because people began to gather pretty quickly and there was quite a crowd. Of course, you know, the authorities, and I remember I was the only one that could communicate with them, answer questions, deal with them, because everybody else was just a mess. And I understand that. But I remember questioning myself going, what is going on? I thought, you know, I asked, am I in shock? I literally took my pulse and respiration. I went, no, I’m not showing symptoms. But I it was explained to me later that, well, what happened that day before that is, when I asked, you know what’s going on with me? Why am I like this? I immediately felt-  it felt, you know, you know, if someone holds you up under your arms and holds you up, i literally felt hands underneath, holding me up and hands on my shoulders. And I had a knowing that I was surrounded by angels… That’s all I can tell you. I just knew for a fact that there was an angelic team holding me up, and that got me through that day, and then it just carried it continued. And the things I was guided to, things to, like mantras— i was guided to say things and do things that would help me through this period, and also assist my husband, who wasn’t feeling well with it at all, and it was just looking back now, it was fascinating, it was a very difficult thing to go through, but fascinating. Later I was told by my higher self that I had this lifetime was I had designed this lifetime so that I would definitely fully awaken and I wouldn’t miss this opportunity in this one. And they went, what my higher self said was I had put measures in place. They said you had arranged for us to, you know, hit you in the head with one by ones. So these nudges I had early on were, you know, the smaller board, the one by one. And it said, and if that didn’t work, you’d put it, you’d put into place the use of two by fours. So we were using two by fours. And they said, and they said, and if that didn’t work, then you had  the final thing was you had arranged for a hit in the head with a 4×4.

Alison: Yeah.

Bonnie: And they said, that that day that your son left was the 4×4 in the head. And and that’s what there was no going back as far as. Not that I wanted to, but it was I was so quickly thrust into, um, receiving things and understanding things in my deepest grief. Um, about two months, 2 or 3 months after he passed, I was just in a really, really deep place. And he, I felt him for the first time. He came to me and wrapped himself around me. And we had about a 30 minute, um, conversation, engagement… Um, and when he left, um, he literally when we parted, um, he took my grief with him. It was just surreal. It was. And and he’s… Yeah. So. Yeah. So yeah, there’s been a series.

Alison: This brings tears to my eyes because the thought…that is so, it’s it’s just as very emotional and, and I look at you as being brave and and yet you seem so like me, like ordinary.

Bonnie: and I question, you know, why I was handling it, if you want to call it so well, I mean, yes,  there were many rough moments for a while, but when I was shown later or told later was that, I there was a choice. There was a crossroad when that happened, and because I was asking, why didn’t I go into that, you know, deeper grief that people normally do. And it said, because if you had gone down that lane, there was no coming back. And so, in a nutshell, if I, if I had gone the traditional, you know, really deep grief lane, I wouldn’t have veered back over to this spiritual awakening… So there was a choice that had to be made.

Alison: Did you feel, this might be a weird question, did sometimes I feel like, uh, in my life, there are reactions I’m supposed to have, And if I don’t like, like you obviously did not…. Is there a sense of guilt or anxiety that comes up during that choice?..

Bonnie: Well,yeah,  I questioned, I um, I question I wonder but also I.. Something inside of me told me, you don’t need to go there. You don’t. In other words, there was just, I know the encounter with my son and I, it was hard for folks that haven’t experienced to understand it. But when you’re I’m sitting on my couch and I feel something, I feel something electric coming at me and I question is I should or should I fear this? And as soon as I question it, the next thing I knew is , he put his head in my neck and wrapped himself around me. And you, you knew with every cell of your being that that was him. And and I literally put my arms out like I was… I held my arms out like this. You know, in a hugging position for 15 solid minutes. And normally I can’t hold my arms up that long. And there was no reason. I had no residual effect afterwards. I was not sore in the back. I wasn’t, you know, my muscles. I literally was in a suspended state and we had, you know, a hug session for 15 minutes. Conversation went on for almost a half an hour. It was all telepathic, but it was just the most beautiful, healing, cathartic thing. And so when you, um. —Oh, help me. What was your original question? I’m sorry.  haha

Alison: Sort of the the fear or guilt of not going a certain way and…

Bonnie: Yes, and you do. But but I had so many of these profound things, like I just described occur, that I knew that that there I knew he was okay. I knew, you know, he was he was in a good place. I knew, um, and, a he told me, he said, you didn’t do anything wrong. It was nothing you could have done. This was, you know, he was only going to live a live half life, he said. Originally that was his plan and it was going to be, if it wasn’t this way, it was going to be a car accident or illness or something. And so I was assured, I mean, it literally, um, so the only thing that I really struggled with was that other’s perception of how I went through it was challenging, um, because they didn’t like it.

Alison: Really?

Bonnie: Yeah. And people would ask, oh, how’s your son? And if I didn’t, you know, want to have to tell him he was gone. But if I did, their immediate reaction was to go into, you know, oh, you know, pity. And they would um, and they expected me to be, you know, something other than, you know, pleasant, you know, and and sunny about it,  for them, they needed me to be in that lower level. And I couldn’t go there. Um, yeah and so, so it’s been interesting navigating that it’s others expectations. But I learned just to stay true to what you know, my heart kept telling me this is right for you and I just learned in Egypt, Jean, I was on… we were on the Nile on that boat, and I was hanging over the ridge, i was leaning on the rail one day, just looking at the water, and and I wasn’t, you know, actively receiving things back then, but there was a phrase that went through my awareness that stunned me, and the words were, stop dimming your light so that it makes other people more comfortable. And then and then and then it added at the end of it and said, you’re done doing that. And it was a command is that you’re done doing that. And I was a changed person coming back from Egypt.

Alison: Wow.

Bonnie: For many reasons.

Jean: Yeah, yeah.

Bonnie: But um, but all I can say is when you get into the vein or the lane that’s right for you, there and just tune into that knowing, um, it is so powerful and and you just trust. I mean, I began early on, you know, talking to my angelic teams. I was, you know, in my readings, i learned to do that. So I just kept trusting the angelic teams and asking for their support and guidance. And it came and it came and it was beautiful. And I just learned to, I was part of what I learned was to let go of the steering wheel. I was shown in meditation, my hands just white knuckle gripping a steering wheel and fighting– you know, I’m trying to pull the wheel to the left and the wheels trying to go to the right, and I’m fighting it. And I literally was shown to let go of the wheel. In other words, my angelic team has the wheel. Stop trying to turn the car in the opposite direction because you’re making it too hard. And so I literally was shown take your hands off that wheel. You don’t have to struggle to go through this life. And and so when we begin following that inner knowing, it just it’s miraculous where it takes..like to Egypt and to meet, Jean.

Jean: I think it’s, like when you’re able to connect with the unseen side of life and I think many people are starting to be able to do that?  Right, Bonnie?

Bonnie: And I want to put it out there… I don’t, “channel the deceased here.” I mean, I’ve had my son come through  me and I’ve had Alex…and Yet my path has taken me in a different direction when it comes to tapping into…

Alison: What do you do now? Like where is your path?

Bonnie: Well, I started being drawn to modalities… So I first learned to do-  it’s called you know we call it energy alignment work. So it’s a kind of a morphed version of Reiki with additional things. So I first trained in that, was drawn to that. And um, just love that. So it’s hands above, hands on and just energy work and was having just profound experiences. And then I got diverted. I just get diverted on these trails and they come out of nowhere. And I got drawn to, um, Dolores Cannon. Have you heard of her in Quantum Healing hypnosis? Oh, that came on like a I was listening to an interview on Gaia. I heard two women talk about a book. I had to order that book right now. Pulled it up. Um, on audible of the 19 books she wrote. I think I devoured 15 of them in a month. I’m not kidding you. I was I go down these obsessive trails and it’s it’s but it’s actually it’s I can’t stop it. It’s just fascinating. And so and halfway through her books, something said, you’ve got to take the course. So sorry. I trained in quantum healing hypnosis and very quickly and then began practicing that. Shortly though after I was doing that, I got a download that said, um, you’re not going to be doing this very long. I went, what?

Bonnie: Then why did  I, you know, go through all this time and expands to, you know, to do this, cause I’m loving it. And it said, because it was just a means to get you to where you needed to be. And so with all these modalities, they’re a means. So what’s been shared with me as of recent is, that it literally I um… I came here, I’m a very, very old soul, I come here,  I hold a key, um, I hold a key, and it’s a key that allows people to… It unlocks a lock where they can begin their or continue their remembrance. And so it’s, there isn’t anything that I really actively have to do just being in their presence.   For the first year after my husband left, it was really odd. I would no matter where I went, I was running into widows everywhere. They would approach me grocery stores, post office. You know the bank? I was widows nonstop and I was put, you know, I was guided in a store to go down a certain aisle where I didn’t need to be on, and it’s because there’s somebody down there and they would mention to me out of nowhere, to a stranger, that they were a widow and having difficulties not dealing well with it. And I was there to-  you know, we could be engaged in conversation over pickles. And while I was with them for the 3 to 5 to ten minutes here they were getting energetic alignment and healing for what they needed just from my, my energy. And so yeah.

Bonnie: that’s the best way I can describe it.

Alison: if someone’s listening to this and they don’t live…. I kind of want to live in your produce. But if I’m not in like Idaho, is there something that you can tell them, that they can do on their own to sort of gain some traction and where you are?

Bonnie: Well absolutely here. Um, well, first of all, this this type of what’s happening is in the quantum field, it’s not, you don’t have to be local to someone or hands on with someone, or in their physical space to receive this. So just I’ll put it out there. We, you know, I do do things remotely too so, you know, through a phone call, through, um, zoom or through also, um, just it doesn’t even have to be, you know, face to face…. It can, you know, just a pre-arranged session. But, yes, there’s many things that people can do here for themselves here. Um, they can just start to start by asking. You have a higher self, do you all understand what a higher self is? So there’s you in…

Jean: Can you go over that?

Bonnie: Okay. So there’s we— I spent decades thinking that I was this little body human. And that’s all there was to me. And I’d been taught from, you know, religious training that I had, you know, a soul and that there was a, you know, a God force here that oversaw us and that we needed to behave in a certain way to be able to earn favors and be able to go to the afterlife that was desired afterwards. So I had that basic training that a lot of us have, and that got flipped on me. And there was a variety of things. I did go through the Course in Miracles after my son passed, and so that was a huge adjustment. You know, so but what I’ve come to understand is that we aren’t that basic human, and that’s all there is. We are a soul who’s decided and chosen to have a human experience, and the soul is just a part of the One, the Source, the God. And so we’re basically God incarnate in human form, having a human experience so that we can bring what we’ve learned back to the whole. And in order to have a human experience on this planet, which is a 3D planet, three dimensions height, width and depth, we have to be in a human bodysuit and it comes with five basic senses. You know, it’s the basic model. But what’s happening right now is that, again, things are shifting and we’re moving.

Bonnie: Some of us are moving out of 3D and into the higher dimensions, fourth and fifth dimension. And so we in those dimensions you tap into these higher frequencies and more abilities like sensory abilities come online. But what happens in basic human 3D? Um, you you just believe that you’re solo and alone and and that can be frightening and scary. And you have, you know, the ego mind that is trying to run the ship. And most people just stay tapped into that. And and so they have limited ability to get, you know, higher level answers. The ego can be very controlling and misleading because it’s very fear based. And so once you learn that there’s, uh, again, more aspects of you, so above, above you on the human level in 3D, there’s what’s called the higher self. And it’s you with Just imagine you sitting at the top of the trees in the forest and you’ve got a better view. So you can see above the tree line and you can see, oh, that’s a shorter route to get over there, or be easier if I go this way. And so it’s just the higher per view of you. And then after the higher self there is the Oversoul or Oversoul collective which is a just a higher,  each time it’s a higher per view you have, you’re closer to if you want to call, you know, the grand computer mainframe and so, so and then above that, recently in the last three months here I’ve discovered that above that is what’s called the Monad.

Bonnie: And I was introduced to my Monad. So I’d been for the last couple of years, I’ve been communicating with my higher self and probably the Oversoul too. I wasn’t calling it that. And so I would receive,  if I sat down and wrote a question and had a on a pad, um, I could get profound answers that I knew weren’t coming from human body because I didn’t know this stuff. I didn’t know even a lot of the words they were putting down. So I, and it became really fascinating to me to go back and read these. But so you’ve got your human in 3D with the ego, you’ve got the again, higher self, the oversoul. And then there’s the Monad. And what was explained to me is that the Monad is the highest level of your, if you want to call it higher self, before you get to the Divine. And the beauty of going to the higher levels is is there,  it’s not being filtered through the ego. So when you’re with the oversoul, it or you’re in the Oversoul essence here, you can still get ego interference. Does that make sense? So the ego can still creep in there and kind of tweak or alter or misinterpret what they’re trying to deliver because they aren’t speaking to you in terms of words, it’s just a download impressions. Yeah, it’s all frequency. And when you get up into the again Oversoul, it’s a little less, you know, ego involved.

Bonnie: But it was explained to me that once you’re with the Monad, you’re communicating with a Monad, there is no ego involvement. And so the difference that I’ve noticed since it, you know, allowed me to function at that level is the beauty and the purity and the love and the, the, um, the way I think is completely changed. Um, I’ll be texting somebody and I find that I’m backing words… I’m not doing it on purpose, but all of a sudden, a word, a word that I’m texting or typing in is being backed out at a, in other words, being inserted, and it’s and I go, oh, well, that’s a more beautiful way to explain that. And so they’re kind of, you know, helping course correct, you know, my language. But it’s just it’s the most loving, comforting, peaceful, um, knowing. And so I encourage everyone and everyone here, anyone can, can elevate to these levels here. It isn’t a hierarchy thing? It’s just a bandwidth is what it is. It’s just like tuning a dial. And the best way to do that is through meditation. Um, you going in and quieting and and also set the intention. Um, set the intention. Uh, there’s a quantity of books, there’s podcasts, there’s tons of stuff on Gaia TV. There’s resources out there, there’s practitioners, there’s, um, so you just you have to if you ask, what’s the best path for me, go within an asset or set that intention before meditation.

Bonnie: Um, and you’ll be you’ll be guided. The most common thing, when I do the quantum healing hypnosis sessions with clients and a very common question that they have me ask their higher self — in those sessions, you come with a list of questions that you want your Higher Self to answer for you, and then you’re the channel for your higher self. So I’m the facilitator that just ask the questions and then you channel it for yourself under hypnosis. And the most common question is am I on the right path? What is my spiritual path? What can I do to improve or better? You know, this experience and the number one thing that the higher self mentions is meditate. And yeah, meditate and people aren’t meditating enough. They’re not doing it regularly there. Yeah. And it’s become literally a, a it’s not only a daily but multiple times a day for me. And it doesn’t have anything lengthy. But eventually what happens when you practice enough, is that you literally can become just a walking, constant meditation, if that makes sense…. But yeah, so it’s not like you don’t have to formally go into things. You can just it’s like you can just turn a switch and you can shut down the monkey mind and just go into, yeah, and you’re able to tune in and then you can receive the most profound guidance. And, and what it’s done for me is it releases fear, because I didn’t realize how fearful I was all my life because I didn’t, you know, I felt so alone and so inadequate and so incapable on my own. And so it’s been a big shift since my husband’s left, and I’m. And, uh, but but being alone is also helped me to have that quiet.

Jean: Yeah.

Bonnie: that Quiet time. So hopefully that answers your question.

Alison: Yes. That was great. Thank you very much. Because I want to just make sure people know that it’s accessible.

Bonnie: Oh, anyway, I never could have imagined. I was told at some point that the path I was going to be going down, that I could not even imagine where it was going to go. And it isn’t done by any means here. This is an ever evolving thing for all of us, but mainly if we’re willing to be open and and to trust, um, to just trust that once you’ve had enough experiences and you’ve witnessed enough miracles. Um. you just learned that I can trust this. And so I’ve been sent, you know, Egypt was the first of the magical trips here, since then, I’ve been sent to…. in downloads, i’ll get told to go places. There’s a relationship that you can form with these higher levels of yourself, and it’s so beautiful and it’s so freeing and it’s so loving, and there is nothing to fear and there’s, um, it’s it’s you just know it. It’s so pure and so I encourage everyone, um, to, you know, first ask and then reach out and find resources. You’ll be drawn if you start asking.

Alison: And I think what you said earlier about trusting and, you know, letting go, um, I think that’s I think people can do that and, and, and the fact that you were open and sending love to people, I think we can do that without even being there.

Bonnie:  You don’t have to know what you’re doing.  Just, you know, you literally,  I have a practice every morning the first thing before I get out of bed, the first thing when I’m awake, I. I start, um, saying I love you to myself. Because that is so… Most people do not love themselves. They are, you know, they think atrocious things about themselves, and so I lay there and I say, I love you and thank you to myself until I feel it, until I feel it. And there’s a point where you get emotional. And so I feel it. And, and I also I just make the statement, I say, I wonder how happy I’m going to be today?  Thank you.   And then I say, I wonder what wonderful new things I’m going to get surprised with today?  Thank you.

Bonnie: And so I’m setting the tone for,  I’m going to have a happy day and a day of surprises. And they’re beautiful surprises. And if I do desire something, I will, you know, I’ll say I, you know, bring me this or something better, because what happens is I don’t even know what the best version of this thing is. And I’m limiting myself. We all are, if we, you know, well, I need that, you know? Um, if we if we say, well, I desire this, bring me this or something even better that’s out there and you’ll be amazed at what you get that..

Alison: You’re a lovely surprise for me today, Bonnie.

Bonnie:  Well, I am just so, so, like I said, so happy. Um, you know, for everyone that’s able to tap into this, this journey, I encourage it a spiritual awakening, i will be up front, it can, um, be very messy, uh, but also very miraculous. And you have to be willing to go through the messy periods. And by messy, there’s a lot of shifting and adjusting that we have to go through. And it’s because our whole belief for me, my whole belief system, I was trained, I was trained to be afraid. Um, not only my family, you know, did that, you know, not intentionally, but that’s, you know, be a good girl or else.. I need to be a good girl, otherwise there were going to be consequences. And. And I’ve come to understand that, no, there’s no right or wrong….. It’s just there’s experiences and we’re here to learn. And we are loved unconditionally. When you tap into in these higher states,  we can all tap into source God, you know, the creator, whatever you want to call it, we can tap into and actually connect into that. It’s the most electrifying, beautiful, loving. If anyone gets a chance to, you know, work with Doctor Joe Dispenza and his work, I got to go to one of his seven day seminars and just had the most profound experiences there. But you you tap into a that that source level, and there’s a love that we don’t experience in the human realm, but you can tap into it through deep meditation, and he teaches that. So it’s profound and it’s it’s life changing. And you realize, yeah, that we don’t need to suffer.

Alison: Yeah,

Jean: Right.

Bonnie: There’s no need for that.

Alison: So I think the other thing you said that’s so perfect is you don’t have to…. The best thing that you feel is when you’re in service that can pull people out of, uh, anxious feelings, depressive feeling like if you’re serving someone or helping someone else, I think that’s like a miracle.

Bonnie: It is. It’s  the best way. Just it takes your focus off of yourself and you get and you’ll completely, yeah, be removed from whatever you were dwelling in, is to go and serve others and just and and do it without expectation of anything in return.

Alison: Yeah.

Bonnie: Just give from the heart and and just lose yourself in it. And so that that’s what makes you know, I didn’t foresee,  I had a business in a space and it got converted to this, you know what it’s called, Oasis of Light Healing Center. I, I was told this was going to happen. I couldn’t even imagine how it was going to. And then how it unfolded was surreal. And and it’s, it’s now um, it actually has been what I’ve been shown and told, and it’s turned into this physical space, which is a business, it’s a space and a business building. It’s been turned into what’s called a crystalline temple. I knew nothing about any of this stuff, but, so what it is, is, you know, the temples we went into in Egypt, Jean?  Uh, you know, you walk in and there’s just a reverence. You just you’re just awestruck. And you just stand there in silence because you feel something when you, but you can’t name it. Um, that’s what happens, is there… There’s grids that have aligned in those, there’s ley lines and grids that have formed at what’s called a crystalline temple. These are all very sacred spaces. And they had practices in there where they kept this going. So what’s happened, and not by my intentionally doing it, but this space that I’m in is, I’ve been informed, has become a crystalline temple. And, um, when people walk in, it’s stunning. They walk in and the minute they walk in, they can just walk in and just be in there and, you know, walking around looking or sitting there and they’re being worked on by the temple. It’s fascinating to watch people, literally, um, they just dissolve there, you can see their shoulders relax, you can see their face change.

Alison: like an exhale.

Bonnie: Is the UPS guy comes in with a box and he makes it like four feet in the door, and he just stops in his tracks and he goes, what is this place? The UPS guy that has no idea what’s going on feels the difference.

Alison: Yeah.

Bonnie: And so it’s been really, um, fascinating to watch this evolve. And I’m so honored I’ve been told that I’m the, um, basically the steward of this. And so my job is to is to keep it safe and protected and to, to help people that come in to be able to access what they need. So I, I’m very honored and I’m so grateful. And, uh, so.

Jean: I mean, you’re just such an emanation of pure love and light, and I feel the same about Allison.  And, um.  It’s just truly a blessing to be to be together here on this very, um, this powerful time of transition. And, uh, and that part about trust and surrender, we really can’t control the outer, it’s it’s out of our hands in a and we can only stay in our truth, stay in our love, emanate that and and know that that in and of itself is is so powerful.

Bonnie: When we work on ourselves and heal from within, it’s not just us we’re affecting… It ripples out where we’re at, and you don’t have to even understand it…. just trust it. Yeah.

Bonnie: There’s so many miraculous things that that will occur, so it just just it frees you. We we have been trained to believe that we’re in this space of limitation and constraint and and it’s not. We are the creator of our reality. And we can we, you know, by trusting we can we will be guided. Just ask.

Bonnie: And yeah ask. And there was a little parting message that my higher self had given that they wanted to share…is it okay I share this real quick? They want folks to know that, no one is lost, you aren’t lost. So if you’re going through spiritual awakening, you’re not lost. Don’t be afraid of it. Um, you’re actually recalibrating. Everything about your awareness has to shift. And so there’s going to be a lot of chunkiness that goes on in that,  but just trust that you will come out of it here. Um, far better, uh, with a clear understanding here also that everything you’re seeking is already within you. It’s already within you. It’s whispering at you here so it’s safe to listen to it. Trust that inner knowing you’ve always had it. You just have been trained to tune it out. So start trusting it and asking for it to speak louder. I used to say, please speak loud enough and clear enough that I can hear you and understand you , shouted at me if you have to.

Bonnie: I don’t want to miss anything yeah…. So just start to have conversation. Talk. Talk to your higher self and your inner knowing. Like you like we’re talking… And  it’ll speak back.  Yeah.

Jean: That’s great.

Alison: We usually do two end questions.  And our first one is, um, what do you think our our podcast is called Inside Wink. What do you think that means?

Bonnie: Uh, well, I asked my higher self a little earlier, so here’s what I have… Because it was more eloquent than what I was going to say. So it said,  inside wink is that subtle moment of knowing we share with the universe, like an inner nod or smile that says, I see you, I feel you. I understand it’s the quiet connection between souls and the reminder that there’s more going on than meets the eye.

Alison: Oh, yes. Bonnie.

Alison: Fantastic.

Bonnie: Well, I thank my higher self for bringing that through. Okay.

Alison: That’s right.

Bonnie: I can send it to you.

Alison: That’s beautiful.

Jean: Oh, that’s so beautiful.   And I have probably the most important question –  You know, riveting question. Do you prefer cake, pie or ice cream?

Bonnie: That was a tough one, because I love them all. But it came through the other day. It was and  it’s mint chocolate chip ice cream!

Jean: And that is what I have in my freezer, Bonnie.

Bonnie: Oh my gosh.

Jean: You have to learn to bi-locate

Alison: That’s right.

Bonnie: Oh my. Gosh. Well, after  that came through I ended up buying a tub. And unfortunately, Jean,  ate the tub already.

Bonnie: So….But it was a mint chocolate chip.

Alison: I love that.

Alison: Thank you so much. You’re such a treat.

Bonnie: Oh, well.  Thank you. Thank you. So I can’t wait to meet you in person someday, Alison,

Alison: I would love that, I would love that.

Bonnie: Thank you again, Jean. You’re so shiny and bright and both of you, and so it translates very well. So. Thank you.

Bonnie: Oh, what an honor.

Jean: We love you. And thank you for all that you’re doing.

Bonnie: well, thank you for what you do. So take care.

Bonnie: Alrighty.

Alison: Talk Soon. Bye.

Alison: Oh, I really enjoyed her.

Jean: I thought you would.

Alison: Right? Yeah. I just really enjoyed her. And she’s just like, um, an every woman. And yet really, um, has really done, like, a 180, right?

Jean: But, you know, she, she said some really key points. I love that she said to follow what makes you what interests you? And and it takes such courage to break free from the pack that tells us what to do to be good, a good girl, or whatever that means, or be, you know, be anything than just what truly lights our own heart.

Alison: Exactly. And sometimes I feel myself going, oh, you know, no, you really should do this. Yeah. And maybe I don’t need to listen to that. Maybe I can just really ask, you know, and I love that she says what surprises her in store for me today?

Jean: Yes, Alison.

Alison: What good surprises. I love that, right?

Jean: Right. And I think, um, you know…It’s so great to know that there is a force for good that we can access and that it just takes asking, right? You know, like, please help me with this situation, right? You know, and.

Alison: Just the way I would ask you, I can ask me or and I can ask my higher self. Yeah. Right.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: I love that. So in case you’re busy.

Jean: In case I’m busy,, okay…Then go to the Monad, if I’m too…

Alison: exactly.

Alison:  That’s right. Well, we hope you enjoyed Bonnie. We really, uh, she’s very special. And we hope you can take some tips.

Jean:  yes.

Alison: and Relax into your own gifts.

Jean: Absolutely.

Alison: Have a wonderful day.

Jean: Have a great day.

Alison: Bye.

Jean: Hello all out there in podcast land!

Alison:  hello. Here we are. Um, I want to tell you something. I found a little lame duck in my street, and, um, all my my kids were so great. My husband was so great. People that stopped were so great. The neighbor whose property we were on, who I had never met, was great. Other people. And it just made me go, I love people like everyone just got involved.

Jean: No one was giving you recipes for duck a l’Orange?

Alison: No.

Jean: Okay.Good.

Alison: No. No one was like, you know, I’ll take it. Dinner? No, it was great. And we found a rescue for it, which is the California Wildlife Rescue up in Calabasas. And it was just- I just felt like it. I don’t know, little moments like that make me so happy and renew so much for me.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: Do you know?

Alison: I love that you share that. Because it is those those little moments. I mean, I know a lot of us don’t ordinarily lose, you know, find a duck on the street.

Alison: Or lose a duck.

Jean: Or lose a duck. But it’s it’s when you notice the goodness within others.

Alison: I know everyone was eager and came over, so I just wanted to just put that out there that I was so impressed by people and and like, just like this show, like this man today that we’re going to be interviewing…. Stephen Schettini, correct?

Jean: YES

Alison: And, uh, his, um, website is about being an inner monk.

Jean: Yeah. He was in a monastery for eight years, and we’re going to hear about his teachings, the tools he he uses to help people live a more happy and fulfilled life.

Alison: So that’s fantastic.

Jean: It is.

Jean: Who it is who can’t use that i mean, I think I heard him say actually that his, um, his mission is to just help others and.

Alison: Be in the world.

Jean: Be in the world,

Alison: Which is what I kind of love. Yeah,

Jean: I’m looking forward to it.

Alison: Me, too. I can’t wait. Okay, here he is. Here’s Stephen.

Alison:  Hi.

Stephen: HI, Nice to meet you.

Jean: Hello, I’m Jean,

Alison: And I’m Alison.

Stephen: Hi, Jean. Hi, Alison. I’m Stephen.

Alison: Hi, Stephen. Hi. It’s so nice to be able to talk to you.

Stephen: Oh, this this is very fun for me too. So I love being a guest on podcast because I get to meet so many different people from so many different backgrounds who ask me completely different questions.

Jean: Yeah, sure.

Stephen: Yeah. I like to be challenged.

Alison: Oh. That’s great.

Jean: Yes. And you are calling in from Montreal?

Stephen: That’s right.

Jean: Okay, great. Great. We’re in California.

Stephen: Yeah.

Jean: Yeah.

Stephen: So I figured that out at 2:00 when I thought. Yeah.

Jean: I’m so sorry about that… I mean.

Stephen:  we both forgot about it. It’s rather unusual because it’s always a preoccupation, isn’t it?

Jean: Yeah. But anyway, here we are. And that’s all that matters. And, um, we are both so onto and into your teachings of the inner monk. They they really are superb. And, um, why don’t we start off with a little bit about your background.

Stephen: Okay.

Jean: How you were raised and.

Alison: Yeah, because the way your, what your parents did is kind of amazing to me.

Jean: And then we’ll get further into to the interview.

Stephen: Okay. Sure. Well, my, my parents were rebels. I suppose my father was rebelling against the Mussolini, uh, because he was a teenager in Italy during the rise of Mussolini, and he wasn’t interested in that stuff at all. Um, and he’d also lost his father at a young age. So, anyway, he was a he was rather an angry young man. Um, he went through the the ritual, the fascists used to do that. If you didn’t agree with them, they’d forced you to drink a bottle of castor oil. Oh, so he went through that. And that was. That was when he left Italy. He joined his cousin in South America who was who had a lion act. Um, it wasn’t a circus. In those days, there were people who had acts, and they went on the street. They went on the road, and they just maybe they teamed up with a couple of other ones, and they built their reputation that way. So he did that for about ten years in south America with his cousin. And then by that time he was involved with the big circuses. He came back to Europe. Excuse me. And he toured with Bertram Mills Circus, which was the biggest circus in Europe at the time. And that’s where he met my mother, who had run away from a potential career as a post office assistant. And she wanted to be an acrobatic dancer instead. So I didn’t know these people the people I knew, had a very respectable Italian restaurant in the West of England. That’s where I grew up. But, um, I did see the publicity photographs, and I heard the stories, and that’s what fired my imagination. And, um, that made me think that life was for whatever you wanted to do with it. So It’s really up to you.

Jean: It doesn’t have to be like a cookie cutter.

Stephen: Exactly.

Alison: Right. Right. Right. So then, did that inspire? Did that inspire you, or was it. Did it, um, frighten you?

Stephen: Well, it that was my problem, I wasn’t frightened.

Alison: Mhm.

Stephen: I should have been because it inspired me to be reckless.

Alison: Yeah.

Stephen: I’d rather…to make decisions…. I wasn’t making decisions. I was just reacting to the next opportunity. Um, so I was also very unhappy as a child. Um, so the image of my father was fantastic, but the reality of my father was much more oppressive. And my, my main feeling towards him was fear. I was just afraid of him. Um, and I wanted to get away from him as quickly as possible and get away from the family. And that’s really what inspired me. Mhm. Um. To get away. Yeah. What inspired me to a spiritual path was, um. Well, my time in university, I was raised as a Catholic. Um, I didn’t like that very much. I went to Catholic schools, nuns and monks and all of that. Um, but when I got to university, then I decided to become an atheist, which didn’t last very long because there were still so many unanswered questions. So I delved into all sorts of things, and it seemed to me that Buddhism was probably most likely to answer the questions that I had in the way that I would relate to. Um, and by this time I’d hitchhiked to India and, um, I went through a lot of ups and downs. But I arrived in Dharamsala, which is the seat of the Dalai Lama and the Tibetans. And, um, they welcomed me with open arms and.

Jean: And how old are you about, at this time, you’re about, what, 20?

Stephen: I was 22.

Jean: Wow. Okay.

Stephen: Yes. Yeah. And other people like me and of my age and in my background.

Alison: And did you think I’m just going to do this for a little while, or was it this. It seemed as though this was a one way for you. Um, like you weren’t thinking, i’m going to go back or?

Stephen: I wasn’t heading somewhere. I was running away from somewhere. It’s different.

Alison: Yes, very much so.

Stephen: Um,  when I went to school and I went to school in London, I thought, well, this is it. Now I’m going to get my real education. I’m going to learn how to think and how to philosophize and all that stuff. And of course, what they taught me was how to pass exams, which didn’t excite me very much. And then I realized I was because I did social science degree. So I was lined up for a career as a civil servant or something like that, or an academic, and I, I realized I wasn’t I was interested in the subject. Very interested in people’s society, history, um, sociology, all those things still to this day. But in that formal academic setting, I wasn’t made for that. Yeah, I wasn’t, I wasn’t I wouldn’t have been able to to stay. I would have lost my mind. Yeah.

Alison: I love that you say you weren’t made for that because I think, um, right now there’s an issue with people feeling that they have to be a certain way. And, uh. And I love that you’re like you. You were like, I’m not gonna I can’t I can’t do it like that took a certain amount of bravery.

Stephen: Yeah, well, partly bravery and partly, uh, like I say, a fearless, a silly, a stupid fearlessness.

Alison: Right, right.

Stephen: Um. I never looked after my, uh, my career, my finances. Very, very well, in that sense, in a traditional sense. But that’s because I was also focused on not getting sucked into the into conventional life. Um, which there’s nothing wrong with it. In fact, after after the monastery, I left the monastery. I came to Montreal alone. I decided I had to start from scratch again. Um. And I had a terrible time for the first 20 years.

Alison: Wow.

Stephen: Um. And then I met my present wife, Caroline, um, who was extremely conventional. She’s a mother of four children.  she had a nice little suburban house. The whole thing, everything that i always avoided.

Jean: the white picket fence..

Stephen: Yeah, the whole thing. And and I was happy, and I couldn’t quite understand it. But I also decided I wasn’t going to run away from this.

Alison: Yes.

Stephen: Um, and it’s been it’s been the best. Uh. Well, now it’s 25 years. It’s been the best 25 years so far.

Jean: Lovely. That’s beautiful. Yeah.

Stephen: It’s not easy, it’s complicated… She’s a life coach now, which is wonderful. So we have we have a lot of conversation. We have a lot in common. She also suffers from MS. She’s had MS for 35 years now. Um, so that’s that’s an ongoing challenge. Yes. Um, yeah. It’s it’s something special to go through. I can’t say that we’re going through it together. Of course, she’s the one with the disease, not me. But, I mean, I’m with her every day. We, you know, we share the stories. We know what’s happening. Disappointments, the sadness, the all of that. And it’s a very powerful bond. I wouldn’t change it for anything. Yeah.

Alison: Yeah. Having a long term friend or a partner is really, I think, one of the most beautiful experiences in life. I agree that you really can look back on and say remember when. And really see the changes in growth in your relationship. You know that’s beautiful.

Stephen: If you meet someone like that. Yeah. But it’s not that common.

Alison: No, no,

Stephen: There’s a lot of people in um, at least in flat relationships, and sometimes they’re just unhappy.

Alison: Yeah.

Stephen: And people aren’t willing to to make the effort to change because it hurts, too. There’s nothing worse than a divorce… God… It’s horrible. But I understand why people resist. But sometimes you have to just make a break and change.

Jean: Right. That’s true. Yeah, it’s it’s great that you both found each other and that you both, uh, support each other in the in the way.

Stephen: It’s a real gift. Yeah.

Jean: Yeah. Again, piggybacking on what Alison said, a long term relationship.. It’s, um. If if you can be authentic and vulnerable in it, you can really grow very deep. Versus hopping around. I mean, you know, I mean, and everyone’s got their path, so no judgment. Yeah. Hopping around is good for some. And going deep is good for others.

Stephen: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don’t think we should get moralistic about it, for sure, but I agree with what you say. When you form a real bond with another person, a lifelong bond. It’s something else. It’s really different. You become a different person.

Jean: Yeah.

Stephen: Yeah. But you, like you say, you have to be vulnerable and you have to be open and it’s it’s work. (un transcribable)

Alison: It’s a lot of work. We both, Jean and I both have had long term relationships with Alex and my husband Dan. And, you know, it’s just a long you know, it’s kind of amazing because you can, you know, the age lines mean something different when you’ve been you’ve seen them arrive. Yeah. You know?

Stephen: Yeah. Yeah.

Alison: Can you tell me? So, living in a monastery, we used to discuss this in a class we used to take living in a monastery, i feel like, oh, they really get to be spiritual and peace. And how do I. How do I do that when I’m, like, looking for a parking space? You know, like in the in the world. This world. Right. And so what what was it like to live in a monastery? Yeah.

Stephen: Look, there are there are all sorts of monasteries out there. There are all sorts of Buddhism’s out there, for that matter. Just like there are all sorts of Christianity’s and Judaism’s. I mean, it’s, you know, um, but for me, the monasteries that I was in, they were the Noisiest, raucous places I’ve ever lived.

Alison: Oh my God.

Stephen: So let me tell you about who I studied with. I studied with the Galuppi sect of Tibetan Buddhism. They’re a very scholastic sect. And you’ve probably seen pictures of the debate. They have these very elaborate debate rituals every day. So,  the, monastery consists of, um, at that time there are about 100 adult monks there, about 500 boys, and they’re ordained as, uh, novice monks. And some of them are as young, the youngest one I saw who came into the monastery was three years old, taken away from their mothers and put in here. So it’s all male. Um, there’s a lot of kids. So you’ve got a lot of noise. You got a lot of energy. There’s a lot of teenage boys, so you got a lot of testosterone as well. And that that comes out on the debate ground. Um, the debating is very ritualistic, and there’s a lot of one person sits and the other person stands and throws the questions, and, and there’s spit flying and the voices are raised, and sometimes it comes to a fistfight. Um, so, yeah, probably not what you were expecting for a monastery?

Alison: No I was picturing real quiet. You know, we meditated from four in the morning till 11.

Stephen: Well,now that  is so in other monasteries. Yeah, that’s exactly what happened. I went to Sri Lanka for an extended retreat, and there we were in the forest and it was silent, and we were woken at 3:30 in the morning for breakfast. Um, had lunch just before noon, and that was it. The rest of the day was meditation, an hour of walking meditation, uh, an hour of sitting meditation, half an hour of walking meditation, alternating. Very intense, very quiet. All you could hear was the sound of coconuts dropping from the trees.

Alison: Wow.

Stephen: Yeah. It was really something.

Alison: Yeah.

Jean: I heard you say, Stephen, in an interview, that when you left the monastery, you left with a lot more courage and confidence.

Stephen: And I did. Yeah.

Alison: Why?

Jean: And how do you think that came about?

Stephen: Um. I think it was because, um, I had grown, I felt that I had grown. I didn’t feel that before from all my education that, you know, primary, secondary, even university. I didn’t feel that I was really getting anywhere, that I’d established anything or that I had any… I had no moral foundation. But with Buddhism, and this is a complicated thing to say, because I don’t consider myself a Buddhist anymore. But Buddhist Buddhism, in that context, and the way I studied and the people I studied with and the encouragement and the feedback I got, it gave me a sense of solidity. And it was from that time in my life, when I look back, that is the formative period of my life- in my 20s, which is a little strange.

Alison: Yeah.

Stephen: When I look back on my actual childhood, all I recall is confusion and embarrassment.

Alison: Mhm.

Stephen: Yeah.

Alison:  Embarrassment.

Stephen: Yeah.

Alison: Yeah.

Stephen: Well, you know, that’s a mild form of guilt isn’t it.

Alison: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Felt guilty. Yeah.

Stephen: So how was the troublemaker. I was a problem for my family and they couldn’t understand me, the couldn’t make heads or tails…. and I can understand why- I don’t, you know, I can’t fault them for it. I was a mess. Um, but, uh, yeah. So that’s  the way the confidence came from. And it’s been tremendous. In fact, it was for a while, going from extreme lack of confidence, um, I went to the other extreme, i became cocky.  Um, arrogance.   Yeah, I figured I had I, I knew what was going on. Yeah. You got.

Alison: Exactly. You got it.

Stephen: That’s it.

Alison: But when you’re just walking along and hearing the coconuts, I think, why? Why would you leave?

Stephen: Well, because it’s it’s not real.

Alison: It’s not real.

Stephen: It’s not real. And this echoes an episode in the Buddha’s life where he, um, he was he grew up very privileged. Okay? He came from a wealthy family. Uh, he was destined to take over from his father, who was the chief of the clan. So he was looking at a life of responsibility, and he’d have to make decisions, and he’d have to sentence people to punishments and things like that. And at the age of 29, he walked away from it. He lived the rest of his life homeless. Um. I’ve lost my thread now?

Alison: Why? Why would you leave?

Stephen: Um. So why do I leave the monastery?

Alison: Why would you? When you were describing walking along and hearing coconuts in choir.

Stephen: Sorry. Yeah. Thanks. Okay.. So the Buddha does all this stuff, and he meets a couple of teachers, and they train him, and they get so excited over his progress that they say, you know, please come and join us, you can be you can be the leader. And he said, no, it’s no good. And they say, what do you mean.. you’ve attained the highest possible state? And he said, yes, the highest meditative state, but then I have to come back. And then my knees hurt and my back aches and life is stressful. And so that to me is a very realistic story of the Buddha as a man. But when you talk to Buddhists, you get a different story, which is that he was the Buddha. He didn’t suffer from any pain.

Alison: Mhm.

Stephen: And but that doesn’t make sense , he had a body, right. He’s lived on this planet. Right? So of course he’s gonna he’s gonna stub his toe and he’s going to hurt. And  the stresses of life are real. Th,ey’re not imaginary. You can’t escape it by reaching a certain state of mind. You can escape it by closing your eyes and going into meditative trance. But again he said, no, that’s no good. I need something more, which is to maintain a meditative space through life, through active life, through this conversation, through every conversation, through a violent argument to to be present, to be aware of what’s going on and to understand it doesn’t mean to be perfectly at peace all the time. It does mean to be there, to be present, to be taking responsibility for your life. And that’s the that’s the greatest thing we can ask for.

Alison: And that’s what I really responded to. Looking at your interviews, reading all your things, it’s that  you are wanting me to be in my life, but also be, um, uh, peaceful? Or is that peaceful? . Maybe not all the time?

Stephen: Exactly. Well you can’t. Who’s peaceful all the time?

Alison: Right, right, right. And your idea that we all have an inner monk that almost made me cry. Like I found that so moving because I felt like maybe that’s something that I hadn’t, um embraced or allowed in as much. Could you, could you describe that a little bit for our for our listeners?

Stephen: Yeah. Well, I was trained, uh, in classical Tibetan and Buddhist, uh, psychology, among among other things. And, um, in Buddhist psychology, mindfulness is one of the 51 mental factors. Um, okay. So the mind says you’ve got your mind, which is just consciousness itself. And then there are 51 mental factors, such as happiness and guilt and, um, anger and these different things. So one of these, uh, fundamental mental factors is mindfulness. So when I hear people talk about mindfulness as if it’s, um, a method or it’s a tradition or a belief system, then I try and get them away from that. It’s none of that stuff. You don’t have to study it. You’ve got it,

Stephen: You just have to use it. And if you’re not sure what it is. Think about this. A few years ago, you were born, you came out of your mother’s womb, you took your first breath and you started to know things. Okay? You knew where you were. You know where the food is. You know where the warmth is. You know where the safety is. So you’re you’re gradually making sense of this world, not just the world. You’re making sense of your body. You don’t even know how to use your fingers. You know the babies when they’re doing all that. It’s so cool. They’re discovering them. They are pure mindfulness. That’s what mindfulness is. It’s not complicated. It’s very simple. They’re right present. And they have no choice but to be present because they have no experience. They’ve got no language, they’ve got no memories. They’ve got none of that. But as we grow and as we develop memories and the sense of identity and we build this sense of ego, then we get distracted by all the things that we have to do and all the things that we have to prove. And then we get complicated, and then we have to pay money to go and learn mindfulness. It’s crazy.

Jean: Yeah. I mean, I love that you say,That awareness attention is like a muscle. The more you can strengthen it. That’s so great. Do you think is is being focused and attention the same?

Alison: Yes. Yeah. And well focus is an extended attention.

Jean: Yeah, right. Do you notice the people in your class? Do they? Do they come to you with, um, attention deficit disorder or do you notice any of that?

Stephen: Oh, yeah. I that’s I suffer from that myself. That’s one of the reasons I started doing this. I wanted to get some control of my mind.

Jean: I love that.  And so you’re a teacher of meditation. Is that correct?

Stephen: That’s right. Oh, yeah. Mindfulness meditation. Yeah. Three times a week.

Alison: That you are for me, bringing up that mindfulness also is discovery.

Stephen: Absolutely.

Alison: And I’ve never thought that. I thought I thought mindfulness or mindfulness meditation was inner, was not discovery because discovery feels– I know they don’t exist, but outer in a way.

Stephen: Yes, I know what you mean, well it is. We’re learning to see ourselves in a more objective way. Right?  I don’t want to just be angry. I want to be able to see myself becoming angry. And I want to know what the triggers are. And I want to know if I’m overdoing it when I respond or if I’m doing responding appropriately, because anger is sometimes justified, you know, I read the news every morning, i get angry. If I didn’t, I, I would be upset with myself. There are things that we should be angry about. Right?

Alison: Right. So then what..

Stephen: Is the right and wrong? Sorry…

Alison: What steps do you take? Because we’re living in a time that, That is exactly what all our friends are saying. Like, how can I be, um, spiritual, peaceful, meditative, mindful and still read the news?

Stephen: You have to accept that being spiritual is not something separate from being material.

Jean: I love that you say that.

Alison: Mhm.

Stephen: Okay. ,It’s not separate. This is the problem with the, the image of the Buddha who’s always sitting in perfect meditation in complete silence, it’s very misleading. Um, in Asia Buddhist monks don’t meditate very much. Well they’re active. They’re busy. They look after the poor. They they study. They also, I mean, there’s lots of different things, but meditation is just one bit. It’s not the whole thing. And the whole point of meditation is not to isolate you from the world. It’s to be able to bring a little bit of that peace out into the world. It’s after you get up. That’s when the real work begins. And that’s where the transformation begins. Because if you’re sitting in perfect peace for an hour or for a day, or for a bloody year, when you come back, nothing’s changed.

Alison: Yeah.

Stephen: So we do have a responsibility to change, to maintain the world. Um, and things are…  bad people are taking control and they’re gaining the upper hand, and we can’t let that happen. Um, you know, some people will take up arms. Some people will just meditate, talk, encourage other people to resist whatever. We have to be involved to some extent, because this is our life. We created this. We allow this if we don’t challenge it.

Alison: Um.

Stephen: But we’ve also got to keep our balance. And so I also, you know, I read the horrible headlines and sometimes I read the articles and then I’ll watch a cat video, you know, but it’s…. Laughter is very important.

Jean: Thank you. Like Binki The Cat.

Alison: That’s right, that’s right. That’s one of my favorite.

Stephen: You’re a cat person. Um. We play. We watch TV, you know? I mean, it’s it’s important to find balance, but you’ve got to keep your hopes up. But you’ve also got to meet people and see people who are committed to, to a life of, of real value. Um, and that’s why I keep teaching, because,  that’s where I meet people. And that’s what keeps me positive, keeps me going. Uh, I believe in growth, and I think I think we can do better. Much better.

Jean: Like, when the mind is so active, it’s really hard to reach your full potential. I know for me, when I’m worried and my mind is looping over the same thing or the worry or oh, I wish I didn’t say that… Just just overthinking. um, I know the tools that I use and I wanted to ask you, what are some tools that you can offer our listeners when your mind just, you know, as you’re really worried or can you talk about that?

Stephen: Well, When that happens, okay, we’re talking about the 2:00 in the morning mindset, right?  when your eyes being open and….

Alison: Yes. Yes.

Stephen: Okay.  Well, when that happens, um, the biggest the mistake that most people make  is to fight with those thoughts. I don’t want you thoughts, go away- i don’t want you. And so you sign up for a meditation course and the teacher tells you, empty your mind of thoughts. So you’re sitting there trying to empty these thoughts away. And what are you doing that with? You’re doing it with other thoughts and you’re telling your thoughts to– it doesn’t make sense and you just get tangled up. So the the first rule of mindfulness, when you’re concerned about your thoughts and your rapidity of your thoughts. Is to watch them. Let them be. Let them come into your mind. Let them go out. Don’t struggle with them. There’s a knack to it. It takes a while to figure it out. It’s not difficult, but it’s unfamiliar. You just accept it, okay? I’m worried about. I teach a group of of, uh, cancer patients every week. Um, so we talk about anxiety a lot there, because once you’re diagnosed, then the anxiety is there for the rest of your life, one way or another. Um, and it’s this continual resistance. I don’t want this. I don’t. That’s the problem. When you can identify that mind in which you’re resisting and you can say, there’s the resistance. What you’re doing is naming different states of mind. You’re naming anxiety. You’re naming resistance. Your naming denial. As soon as you see the thoughts and you put a name on them. There’s an objectivity which comes. There’s a distance between you and those sorts. They’re not you. They’re just something that happens. That’s that’s how mindfulness unfolds. So it’s not complicated, but it’s not easy. It takes practice.

Alison:  When you say pass through, my thoughts want to stay and camp out and bring other thoughts in. Like my my thoughts sometimes just don’t go. Like it feels like… And are you suggesting that maybe it’s because I’m wrestling with them in my mind? Just see them and go, oh there’s that.

Stephen: Yeah. You see there, there there are different…. The practice of mindfulness comes in four cycles. Okay. You start with the body, then the emotions, then your thoughts, then your experience. Okay. So as you go through these cycles, you begin to see how your mind works, how your thoughts and your feelings are reflected in your body, in your posture, in tension, in your body. Anything like that. And you start to see how all of this is connected. So as you’re struggling with these thoughts, you can also bring your attention into the body and see how it’s expressed physically. So you’re looking deeper into it. So yeah I’m thinking about what’s going to happen to me, uh, you know, when I go to see the doctor next week. Um, and I’ve got a knot in my stomach and and I feel crappy, I feel scared. You start naming all of this stuff, and what you’re doing is, you may not be making those thoughts, those scary thoughts go away. But you are noticing and putting together these connections. You’re seeing how your mind functions  and as you become more and more familiar with that, you start to see things before they even really mature. You feel that something in your stomach or in your shoulders, you know, and oh, I’m angry. And you start to see those mind states in their infancy, as it were before. They’ve developed into this full blown series of thoughts that you can’t escape. You can catch it at an earlier stage where you can take a breath and let go and take another breath and let go, because whatever you let go of it will come back. But not quite the same way. Each time you let go, you’re strengthening your muscle of attention and you’re weakening the muscle of automaticity.

Alison: Oh, wonderful. Yeah, because that is that. That’s the automatic… I’ve worked so hard on that automatic response.

Stephen: Yeah.

Alison: Since Childhood. So yes, that’s exactly right.

Stephen: So I would expand on that a little bit, which is that, um, when I walk into a room and my nemesis is standing there looking at me, glowering, ready to kill me. Okay. I’m ready to respond because I know him. Okay? I’m he’s going to call me a jerk, and I’m going to call him something else, right? But if I’m present, i can walk into that room saying, okay, I’m going to see this guy, and he’s going to be standing there and he’s going to be looking for a fight, and I don’t have to respond to that. So I prepared myself. So I walk into the room, he calls me a name, I don’t respond. So what we’re doing here is, we got stimulus and we have a response and one triggers the other. But what I’m doing is I’m bringing my conscious attention into it, and I’m widening this gap so that even though he gives me the stimulus, I have now a choice I can choose– well, I could just strike back, but on the other hand, I could do something different this time, maybe shift the conversation. Maybe I can just turn around and leave. Or maybe I can say something different. Or maybe, yeah, I should call him a jerk. But the point is, you have, it’s that space that you’re widening between stimulus and response. That’s where the that’s where the opportunities arise.

Alison: Oh that’s fantastic.

Stephen: And you can change your reactivity. You can change the way you behave in the world. And that’s a transformation. You’re not turning yourself into a different person. You’re just no longer giving in to those habitual ways of being.

Alison: Yes. Jean and I have talked about, sometimes– if someone asks us to do something, we’ll say yes before they finish their question. And then sometimes we feel like, or I feel like, wait, what am I doing? Like, I don’t really,  I don’t really want to get in your car or I’m carrying you up a mountain, like…. And now, I just take a minute and try to say I have to think about it. Can I get back to you and just have it that.

Stephen: Yeah.

Alison: Allow me a minute. Because sometimes I –people would be like, oh, today, you know, you’re, you’re operating on my brain tumor… I’d be like, wait, what? What am I doing? You know, like and…

Stephen: This is the purpose of formal meditation. You know, I mean, you sit for ten minutes in the morning and you do your meditation. It feels good. And like I say, what happens next is what really counts. But the point is, you’ve you’ve made that little practice and you’ve you’ve reminded yourself that I have access to my breath any time of day, so that when you do come to a situation where you’re afraid of overreacting, you can do that, you can take the breath because, it’s still fresh in you, it’s still very familiar, and you identify with it in a very important way. So that if that breath is available to you, just one breath, it takes you back to that very familiar place where you can be clear and objective and you make better decisions.

Jean: Yeah. Right. Right.

Stephen: Yeah.

Jean:  And and I love again, i don’t know where I heard you say, but it you you become happy with inside, and the outside world isn’t so pulling at you. And you’re not, you don’t feel like a pincushion. You know, you have, um, congruent vibration within yourself. And, you know, the outside stimulus don’t have such a trigger on you. So, um, and you also speak about the consistency of meditation, which is probably where I drop the ball.

Stephen: Because that’s the problem. Yeah, that’s the problem for everybody.

Jean: Yeah. And I’m like, you know, doing it, and then for whatever reason,

Alison: Yeah,

Jean: I’m going to say like three weeks in, I’m like, oh, I’m especially if I’m traveling or if I just get very busy…

Alison: Yeah,

Stephen: I can do it tomorrow. We’ll do it tomorrow.

Alison: Exactly. Okay. But you’ve been eavesdropping, Stephen.

Jean: That’s right. You say the inner monk is finding value in your own self… That is so beautiful.

Alison: Yeah.

Stephen: If you find it, I mean, it is there for all of us to be a human being… Look, I mean, I hate those old stories where, you know, we’re the only ones with a soul, and all the animals are soulless and they don’t feel pain. But, we’re different in one way, which is that we can change. We can change our behavior. We can change the way we see. And that’s incredible. And it’s an opportunity. We can completely transform our automaticity. We don’t have to just be a series of habits. On the other hand, it is possible to live your whole life from cradle to grave as one habit after another. People do it all the time. It’s, um. Yeah, that terrifies me. That’s what really scared me more than anything else back in the day when I didn’t want to become a civil servant. Yeah.

Alison: You just you would just grow up to be a series of habits, and that would be one of them.

Stephen: That’s what I was afraid of. Yeah.

Jean: Mhm. Yeah. Yeah.

Stephen: And that can happen anywhere. And I swear to God that can happen in a Buddhist monastery too.

Alison: Right.

Stephen: Okay. It’s not different.

Alison: But you have habits now right. Yes. Or you have the picket fence like and and how how why why are those refreshing for you or inspiring.

Stephen: Well, it’s not the picket fence, which is refreshing, it’s me. Well, I am, or I’m not. Either I can look at it,  you know, the picket fence today is not the same as it was yesterday, right?

Alison: Mhm.

Jean: Right.

Stephen: There are always differences. Are you looking for what’s new? Are you looking for familiarity? You see, we do– the first thing a neuroscientist will tell you about the human brain is that it’s lazy. That laziness is part of the operating system. We’re always looking for shortcuts. That’s where automaticity comes in. Okay, so when you’re when you’re a child and you’re learning to build with bricks or with Legos takes you a long time just to put the first two pieces together might take you a few minutes, but gradually you get faster and faster at it until it becomes automatic. So automaticity is important because that’s how we learn, but also we learn things and then we don’t think about them anymore. So when you’re building up something with bricks, that’s one thing. But when you’re developing a relationship with somebody and you get into an argumentative state where you get stuck, where it’s not just an argument, but it’s it’s a repetitive resentment that just keeps getting deeper and deeper. Then that also is a product of Automaticity, and that is the sort of habit we want to uproot. So we have to know what’s what, what is the important habits. And you know, what do I have to change and what do I want to change? What what’s keeping me stuck? That’s the bottom line, right?

Alison: And, you know, it’s interesting we talked to so many people. We’ve done like over 60 interviews. And the thing that keeps coming up, that I never thought about before we started this, is in a life that seems truly meaningful and authentic is curiosity.

Stephen: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. It’s Number one.

Alison: Is the thing. And, you know, it’s not really talked about like curiosity killed the cat or blah, blah, blah. But I have to say, that’s like a thematic and listening to you, curiosity and discovery are so important. Self and outward.

Stephen: Yeah, yeah. What can I be?

Jean: Yeah. Right.

Stephen: You don’t know. And that’s wonderful. It means I can find out, you know?

Alison: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. You’re so, um, you’re so, um, down to earth.

Stephen: Huh? I try to be. Yeah.

Jean: You’re very humble.

Alison: And I love that because, you know, when we. When we read your bio, um, because someone… I was like, oh, man, this guy’s going to be, like, sitting in the lotus position, floating.. I better I better get on it.

Stephen: I do my best to pop that bubble whenever I can. Yeah. And I come from a background, i mean, all those years I was with, um, super spiritual people… Um, and I see how people get carried away with ideas and, and, um, the idea of magic powers and, um, transcending the, you know, ordinary material life and and I’m not, to me, the point is not whether these things are possible or not, but you know what’s important? Yeah. Is it important to escape this life and feel personal bliss, or is it important to to actually contribute, to bring something back into this world and make the whole world a little bit more peaceful before I die? Um, and it’s that because when I give and when I see the effect of my giving, then that makes me feel happy in a way that nothing else does. There’s a satisfaction in that that you don’t find anywhere else. Uh, you don’t get it for money, for sure. You don’t get it from power. You get it from connecting. You feel that connection to other people. Connection is what it’s all about. Love is what it’s all about. But you’ve got to start by loving yourself. And that’s what a lot of people don’t do.

Alison: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Stephen: They beat themselves up all the time. I’m no good at meditation. I can’t do this. I hear that all the time. Yeah.

Alison: And what do you say?

Stephen: I say yes, you can. And I try and show them. I sit them down, and I try and show them that because they’re consumed with this idea of I’ve got to get these negative thoughts out of my mind, that this is the big problem with with so-called spirituality, the idea that you should be positive, everything should be positive, and negative thoughts are bad. You should you shouldn’t push them away. Get them out of sight. No, it’s not going to work. If you don’t address negativity, it simmers. Still, there comes out in unconscious ways. You have to address it. You have to see it. Well, I’m feeling very angry. Okay, well, is it justified or not? Yes. Anger is just people are shocked when I tell them that it’s sometimes. But you’re a meditation teacher.

Alison: You can’t do that.

Stephen: When you meet a bad person and he’s behaving badly. You should be angry.  hello?  why is that complicated? But it’s how you respond to that. And what do we do with that anger? You know, if we just become violent about it, then that’s no good. And it’s difficult. It’s a difficult emotion to deal with because it’s so powerful and it’s so instant, and it’s one of the most important emotions, especially today. We have to understand how to channel our anger into constructive ways.

Jean: Yeah.

Stephen: Yeah. Because you can’t just lash out if you go lashing out on on social media. You’re just going to get a whole pile of people jumping on you and, It’s tricky. It’s hard. Yeah. These are dark times.

Alison: These are hard times.

Jean: I think they require more of ourselves rather than just that response. So I, I think what you’re offering to, you know, whoever gets the privilege to listen to you is, is a chance to bring more of your authentic self, your wisdom, your kindness into the world.

Alison: You’re wonderful.

Jean: Yeah. Thank you so much.

Stephen: Oh, that’s very sweet. Thank you.

Stephen: Well, I really admire what you’re doing as well. I mean, you’re going to a lot of efforts to bring some positivity into this world, which seems to want nothing but negativity nowadays. So that’s wonderful.

Alison: Yes. Thank you for seeing that and for saying yes…you are really just so interesting to me because I feel like I could be your pal and learn from you as opposed to, like, just be reverential of you.

Stephen: Oh, no. I’ve gone to great effort to avoid that. Not just to me, but to the figure of the Buddha as well. If the Buddha is some sort of god, you know, who sort of floats on the clouds, then  i can’t really relate to that… I don’t quite see how that can help me.

Jean: Right.

Stephen: I need to relate to a human being there who went through struggle and, you know, found out the hard way. That’s what I relate to. So that’s the way I tried to teach. Yeah, yeah. And from experience, not from books.

Alison: Yeah. I think that’s so true, I think. I think your classes must be fantastic. So we’ll direct people to your website where you share your offerings.

Stephen:  Well, it’s – Mindfulnesslive.CA

Jean: Okay.

Stephen: Okay. Because we’re in Canada. So the the program is called Mindfulness Live, and I teach Monday, Wednesdays and Fridays at 12 noon for half an hour. So it’s brief, but it’s continuous. So every week you get these three guided meditations and then you get the recording afterwards. And then there’s an archive. I’ve been doing this for six years now I think. So there’s an archive of several hundred. Um, and this is what gives you the continuity. Like I say, everybody who sits to answer to meditation, they do a mindfulness based stress reduction course and they love it. You go into a silent retreat. They love it. But when they come home and they discover that the rest of their family is sort of, oh, that’s a little weird. I’m not doing that-  then  um, it’s hard to keep up the motivation. So I’m trying to provide support here, and it’s a wonderful group we’ve got…It’s really cool.

Jean: Excellent.

Jean: That’s wonderful. We have two wrapping up questions. Yeah. And the first one is um, our podcast is called Inside Wink. And what do you think inside wink means?

Stephen: Well, my first thought was that it’s, um, of course, this is my projection, i’m sure everybody gives their own projection. It’s that I’m giving myself permission to explore myself. I’m going inside. I’m the inner monk, right.. You’re talking about the inside wink, and I’m going, yeah, that’s all right, you can do that.

Alison:  that is fantastic.

Jean: I love that.

Alison: Yeah. Every everyone sees it through their own, you know, facet, which we love because all the answers are right. And and, you know, that’s a beautiful thing. Yeah. Thank you.

Stephen: Wonderful.

Jean: Okay. And then do you prefer cake, pie or ice cream?

Stephen: Ah. Okay.

Alison: Yeah?

Stephen: I always like cake best. Yeah. My mum taught me to to cook. To bake when I was very young because I was always asking for cake. And she said make it yourself. So I learned how to cook it.

Alison:  What’s your favorite?

Stephen: My favorite cake. Uh, I think my favorite is, uh, it’s a lemon and blueberry cinnamon cake, which we have. We make it for breakfast. It goes really well with coffee. It’s not too sugary, right? It’s very light. Uh, and it goes great with a nice cup of cappuccino. Yeah.

Alison: Oh, that sounds really good. You’re making me very happy.

Stephen: I grew up in a restaurant. You probably. You probably knew that. Yeah. So I developed an attachment to food at a very young age.

Alison: Well, being Italian, I’m Italian too,

Stephen: Yeah, that’s. That’s the real religion, right?

Jean:  there’s this comedian, Sebastian Maniscalco, and he says something to the effect that, let the Italians cater the Seder.

Stephen:  it makes sense. hahaha

Alison: Well, thank you so, so much. This has been wonderful.

Jean: Yeah.

Stephen: It’s been a pleasure. It was really a pleasure to get to know you and wish you the best of luck. I hope to see you again.

Alison: . Thank you. And have a beautiful day.

Stephen: Thank you. Same to you. Take care.

Jean: Bye bye.

Jean: Nice job.

Alison: Thank you. So, what an interesting man.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: Oh, God. And I’m saying thank you.

Jean: No.

Alison: Perfect.

Jean: No, that was right. Okay.

Alison: What an interesting man.

Jean: Yeah, I would have… I wanted to talk a little bit more about his monastery, his life there. But, um, you know, we only have so much time. But what he did share was just so helpful.

Alison: And also that he, he really is not like push it out of your head, which I really think is refreshing. I like that, I like that the people that we’re talking to or being like, hey humans suffer. Mhm. Here are some tools. Not like oh if you’re suffering you’re really not, you’re not doing too well. Not spiritual. You’re not…you know??

Jean:  well that whole word spiritual I know, I know Steven mentioned in another podcast or maybe this one, I don’t recall that, he’s not a big fan of that word. Yeah. Um, just that it has so many different connotations. Right. So he’s just really someone that gives such great tools to live a fulfilled, happy, responsible, aware life.

Alison: Yeah. I think even just listening to his TEDx talk will help people, going to his website– if you can do his his, um, his was a mindfulness meditation, that would be wonderful. I think anyone that can recognize that these times are tough and have an idea how to keep us along the lines of peace, is really worthwhile right now.

Jean: Yeah.  that is so true. Well, thank you so much for listening. And thank you, Stephen. This was a wonderful, beneficial, uh, conversation.

Alison: Wonderful. Thank you so, so much. And have a great day. Bye.

Jean: Bye bye.

Alison: Bye bye.

Alison : Okay. I’m going to try to use this now. Try to do it.

Jean : Okay. What did we learn?

Alison : We learned to stop trying and use the life transforming power of trying less and doing more.

Jean : By Carla Ondrasik.

Alison : That’s right. And this is. I can’t wait to be interviewed by her, because it’s all about doing and being motivated and getting it done.

Jean : Yeah. And you know what, Allison… I do feel and know that you embody this already.

Alison : Really?

Jean : Do you think that?

Alison : I think I do do a lot. I think it drives people crazy sometimes. Just do it. Come on. Let’s just do it.

Jean :  You are. I feel you… You really have a that under your belt.

Alison : Really? Thank you. Thank you very much. I feel you do. You do a lot.

Jean : Well, I actually do notice from reading her book that I do use the word try. And I’m really grateful to Carla because I actually feel more a little more empowered.

Alison : Let’s try not to use the word.. Let’s just not use it. It’s odd how much it comes up.

Jean : True.

Alison : Right?

Jean : Yep.

Alison : Even just now I said it. So. Okay, well, here she is. I can’t wait to hear her.

Jean : Yes. Okay.

Alison : Uh, okay. Here she is.

Jean : Someone looks really gorgeous.

Alison : You look really good.

Carla: Hi, ladies.

Alison : Hi.

Carla: You know, it’s so funny, i don’t think this is, uh, you don’t you don’t do the images, right. It’s just through Spotify and listening. Right?

Alison : Right, right. And we just take a quick picture of you for the website.

Carla: Yeah. I’ve been listening for a long time because of Dolores. We have a mutual friend, but my husband laughs at me like I put perfume on and jewelry and I like, I want to be calm and be my best self for you guys. So no matter what I’m here, all of me is here for you.

Alison : I love that!

Jean : We are so grateful to have you on our show. And, uh, we did try to read your book and.

Alison : We tried….No. We’re teasing. We did it.

Carla: You’re killing me, ladies.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : You must get a lot of that, or you probably will. Um, but, uh,

Carla: I do.

Jean : I loved your book. I loved, loved your book. I think for me, it really spoke to to so much of the, the patterns we get into without us even knowing it. Right?

Alison : And I just what what inspired you? Like, it’s it seemed like you had been you had said a couple of times, you know, it’s been you’ve been writing it for a bit. And so it inspired you in the beginning?

Carla: It’s a great story. So here’s the book.

Carla: Nice shiny copy. Um, you know, I, I was born in Long Island, New York. My father was a gambler. We were sometimes put in situations that were sink or swim. You’re either going to like, get out of this, like in a good way, or maybe not such a good way. So, you know, the trying mindset from a very young age was really, you know, we weren’t even given the option. You just got to go and do and be. And then my career’s reflected like it’s a combination. My passion is motivating and inspiring people, and I did that in every job I’ve ever had, even if it was waitressing. It was to make their meal incredible, right? And then I worked for Sundstrand Aviation, where I was the employee relations coordinator. So I was the communication between the shop floor and upper management. I was making all the employees dreams come true. And then, of course, I got into the music publishing world, where I was for 25 years and I worked with songwriters, and their dream was to get on the charts to get their song recorded by an artist, and it just never felt like work. It’s imagine you can’t try to sell ice to Eskimos like it’s, you know, it’s and music is intangible. So you got to do and you’ve got to do big and you’ve got to do hard. So that’s just a little background. Like I feel like I look at all those careers and I’m like, well, what did make me so successful and why did it work? Because I really don’t employ a trying mindset, which we’re going to get into, you know what that means and what we think it means and why we do it. But I have also been obsessed with self-help and rags to riches stories-  I love how did you go from here to here? And I read a lot of biographies and watch documentaries. And of course, you know, Shakti Gawain’s creative visualization, all the stuff. I’m 61. I’ve been I’ve had a long time to read a lot of self-help books. And and I thought that I would write in this one book, one time a year, everything that was going to happen the next year. So I’d start out with what I’m grateful for. And then I wrote, this year, one of my writers will have a song in the top ten. This year I will buy a home. This year I will– boom boom, boom. And not everything came true, but most of it did. So I started calling it my magic book. And I really, I had groups with women and questionnaires, and I was researching this whole, you know, is it the is it the act of getting it out of your head and making it something tangible and concrete? What is it that makes it manifest like that? And what I very quickly realized was it’s the words we use. And it wasn’t ever trying, wishing, hoping, wanting. I wrote, being, doing and having. And then I was just forever triggered by that word. Try. If anybody says it in my presence, I’m just like the bells go off. Yeah. And, uh, it’s crazy. I can’t even try on clothes in the dressing room. I, I say, I am going to put this dress on and see how it looks like it, and that’s how serious I am about it. Like that’s how much and how strongly I believe in not using this word. So there you go. That’s that’s me. I’m this crazy obsessed girl.

Alison : I, I think that’s first of all, that trying on clothes is a riot. You’re like, no, I’m. You have to try that on. No, no, I’d like to put this on. I love that.

Carla: You’re going to hate me the next time you go shopping, because you’re going to be like, oh, wait, I’m not.

Alison : Right.

Jean : But it’s so true. I’ve already caught myself when I say try, and I and I told my kids that we were interviewing you today and they both said, how great, what a great way to… But you’ve got to catch yourself.

Alison : Yeah. So, you know, it’s funny because my kid drew me a picture years ago. My motto is just do it. Just do it. Like, shut up and do it, you know? Um, and yet, in your book, I was saying to Jean, I, I want to hang on to the word trying. There’s something so… So, um, I don’t know. Why is that, do you think?

Carla: Okay, so this is a great lead into, you know, what is it? It’s an awareness is what you’re talking about. It’s not a trick. It’s not a hack. It’s an awareness of a word. And you know what? You have to realize that your words, your thoughts become your words. Your words then become your reality. What am I thinking? What am I going to do? And then your actions become your reality. So it all starts in your head. Your words. Your thoughts are your words. Your words are your actions, your actions or your reality. So it’s this big trickle down. It starts here. We believe that trying is doing. That’s the first misconception when we say we’re trying to do something, we think we’re doing it. And I’m not talking about semantics. So I could say I’m going to try to put these glasses on right. Odds are I’m going to make contact, pick them up and put them on my face. I’m talking about big ticket items that affect our health, our happiness, our relationships, our careers, our dreams, all of it. And you’re going to see that very clearly as we keep talking. So, um, so we think that trying means we’re doing we think that it’s brave. We think that it’s a courageous, brave first step. We think it’s, you know, the thing we need to do to discover what it is that’s going to happen, but it really isn’t. Um, trying. Isn’t brave because it’s dipping your toe in the water. Um, what trying really means is you’re not doing anything. So we can do a very quick test, and then I’ll go on. So this is the try test, and you’re going to feel physically what it feels like. So whoever’s listening out there you can do the test also. So hold a finger out in front of you. I’m going to give you three directions. If you’re driving. Don’t do this.

Alison : Okay.

Carla: The first direction is touch your nose. Perfect. Okay. And you can take your finger off. The second direction is do not touch your nose. Perfect. The third direction is. Try to touch your nose. You’ve already touched it, and you’ve already not touched it. So you can’t do those. Physically, I’d love to see you try really hard to touch your nose.

Alison : It feels like a waste.

Carla: Okay. Does it feel confusing?

Alison :   Yeah. It feels like a waste of time. Like, what am I doing?

Carla: It’s like you’re holding yourself back. Right. So if it felt confusing and awkward and silly, our brain feels much the same way that your finger does. It doesn’t know what to do. Am I doing this or am I not doing this? Okay. And one of the reasons that to your question of why do we want to hold on to this so much is because trying it allows for this safety net. Okay. There’s no accountability. When you say you’ll try to do something, you are off the hook. I only said I would try. So if I don’t do it, it’s okay. I didn’t say I would do it, I said I would try. So we lose all accountability. Um, you can use excuses. Okay. I tried to get there at 9:00, but the line at Starbucks, you know, we’ll even blame we’ll blame a line. So excuses blame and zero accountability. You know, I have an excuse. Oh, I thought I was supposed to be here at 930, but I’m now I’m here at, you know, I thought it was 930, so I’m late for the 9:00, so we want to hold on trying. Is this, like, really gentle net of of comfort and, um, why we do this when we get back to what it really means to try is the not doing. Trying as according to the dictionary definition, is in any dictionary is an attempt or an effort to do something- right. I’m on a mission to change that definition, because it really means- I’ll kinda sorta, maybe do it if ish, right? Yeah. You’re laughing. We know it’s true.

Jean : Right

Carla: So why we do it?… The number one reason is that we’re taught to try. So it’s not our fault. And we all do it, every single one of us, because our parents taught us to try and their parents before them. Give it a try. Try harder. Just try it. Try again. You’ll never know unless you try. So we’re taught that this is a really great way to go about doing something. But that’s one of the reasons and it really isn’t. Because like I said, you’re not really taking definitive action. You’re not really doing anything. You’re kind of tricking and fooling yourself into believing you’re doing something. And there’s science behind that also, because when you’re talking about, you know, you go to a party and you meet somebody new and they say, well, you know, I’m trying to develop a podcast. I’m trying to write a book when they’re telling you that our brain doesn’t know the difference between whether you’re talking about it or doing it. The it. The brain does it now. So you’re getting hits of dopamine, serotonin, adrenaline, all the feel good neurotransmitters in your brain. And for some people, that’s enough. And that’s why you go back to the party the next year and you’re like, well, how is that book going? Well, I’m still trying, right? Have you ever encountered that?

Alison : Yes. Very much.

Jean : Absolutely.

Alison : I wrote down that you said trying is a mental activity.

Carla: Yeah.

Alison : That’s, that is such a great sentence because I have looked at, I guess I guess I have looked at trying as a I, it brings up so much stuff for me. The word trying now, like like last night, last night I got a very important project to do, and I didn’t know if I was going to make it to be here today. I didn’t know, so I said to Jean, okay, I’m going to use the word trying. I’m going to try to finish it tonight. But I was putting in my best effort, but I should I not have said trying like what could have been better words for me to use to tell Jean because, but I couldn’t fully commit. It was a lot, a lot of work I had to do.

Carla: Yeah, You’re going to be much kinder to yourself and you’re going to operate from a much stronger place. Imagine that trying is shaky ground, right? I’m going to try. You’re building in the potential for failure. The second you say, Jean, I’m going to try to be there. You’re building in failure before you even go about doing it, right? Right. So if you say to her, look, I’m going to do everything I can. I want to be on the podcast tomorrow. I may not make it because trying, not trying doesn’t guarantee success. Not at all. But it does guarantee you a better chance at success. 100%. So you’re the person that’s directing your life. You’re the one telling the world what you’re going to do. You might as well arm yourself with out bringing in failure without the potential for failure, without bringing in all your excuses and blame, with holding yourself accountable. Everything you do, even trying on that dress in the fitting room, putting it on is going to be stronger. It’s a silly example with the clothing thing, but that’s what you would say instead of I’m going to try. You know, we walk around and we say,  I’m trying so hard, but nothing’s happening. And the problem isn’t that you aren’t trying hard enough. I’m sure you are. It’s that you’re trying in the first place. You’re just on the hamster wheel of excuses, blame, accountability, and not doi

Alison : Yeah, you’re so right. Because last night I did do everything I had to do to finish it. I finished it late. I wanted to be here to meet you and be with Jean. And you’re right. I just could have said, I’m going to do everything that I’m capable of to complete this. And then it’s understood. Yeah. That if I, if it if something else happens, something else broke or whatever and I couldn’t complete it, then that’s it. That’s a great thing. Carla. Thank you. That’s great.

Jean : And I just want to add a little bit to what we were just talking about about, uh, you know, you say in your book, like, try, try the peas versus taste the peas, right? I think for mothers and maybe just some mothers because everyone has their own fabulous mothering way. But, uh, it almost sounds more nurturing or kinder to say. Go ahead. Um, you know, try it, try it. You know, I know you think you can’t read the book, but try it, honey. And it. You’re. So I want you to speak to that because it’s it’s disempowering.

Carla:  It totally is. I’m going to cover so much with that. Um, so yeah, when we offered a try, it does sound gentler and kinder and softer and nicer, but it is not kinder, gentler and nicer. It’s actually the opposite of that. And I’ll explain why. But when we tell our kids, try your best. Okay, I have a test coming up, or I’m going out for a new job. Or if they’re younger, going out for a team or going to be in the school play or whatever it is. And we say, just try your best. That’s telling them, go half hearted, go, go kind of, sort of do it and lean on all the excuses and blame. You can blame everybody else for not giving you enough time or nobody listening to you or whatever, but when you tell them to do their best, their brain is rewired. The minute you change your word from trying to doing, your brain lights up on a different level. There’s actually studies and images. When you say you are going to try your you’re Your radiating on a very low hum like a neutral. But when you say the words I’m doing this. Your brain is lighting up now. It has it knows it has to take strong, determined action. It knows what that means. So when you tell your kids do your best, they’re going to flip that switch and they’re going to put in the extra thing. They’re not going to seek out a excuses. They’re not going to they’re going to give themselves a sense of accountability.

Carla: And if they don’t make it and they still fail their test or get a lower grade than they want, they’re walking out with their head held high and they know, look, I did everything I can now. They have pride and self esteem and they can go and do it again or whatever they can. Um, when someone needs our advice, you know, we’ll we even say it in a very soft voice, you know? Have you tried this? Why don’t you try calling so and so? It’s very soft and pretty, right? What that person needs in that moment is you to tell them you need to call this person. You need to get this book and read it. You need to do this. They’re looking and seeking help. They don’t want someone passively telling them to maybe kind of do something right. I appreciate it. And um, and also with the being kind thing with the kids, women especially, one of the big reasons that we offer to try is because we think it’s mean to say, no, it’s very we say, I’ll try to be there because we hate saying no. We tell our kids we’ll try to whatever because we feel like that’s mean and cruel and not nice. But what it means is you’re not being kinder to them when you’re misleading them. You’re not being you’re teaching them that you are kind of you can’t count on this person. You’re not teaching them to keep their word.

Carla: Right. Um, and it’s not kinder to you either. For example, you know, if somebody invites you to a fundraiser and you want to be the kind, nice person and say, well, I’ll try to make it. Thank you. And you, it’s on Friday night and you get home and you’re home thinking, wow, I said I would try to go. I could go. I have nothing else going on, I should go. I said I would try to go. I know, you know, they really want me there. And it’s a great cause. And so now you’re adding all this stress and anxiety and you’re guilt tripping yourself and all the negative stuff. And you don’t get to enjoy your night because you’re like, what am I going to tell them? And what’s my excuse? And I didn’t go. So now you’ve just blown your night. If you would say to that person, thank you for the invitation. It’s a Friday night. I have a busy week. I’m sure I’m not going to make it. And I would love you to keep inviting me to the next one. But no thank you. They’re not going to wait for you. They’re not going to get your special cupcakes that they know you love in case you show up. And now they’re moving on. You’ve given them the freedom to know if you’ve given them the honesty. So it’s one of the exercises in the book. We have to practice saying no instead of I’ll try.

Alison : That was a great part of the book. I have to say the the do it, don’t try it. Those I thought the I thought those were excellent. Uh, how did you come up with those?

Carla: Well, I’ve been basically thinking about this. Any time I see the word, try and just researching it. You know, I never, ever aspired to be an author. I didn’t know what I was going to do with it. I really didn’t know. I just was obsessed and compiled. And like I said, I have study groups that I’ve done with women. And, um, but what happened was the universe kept bringing me these opportunities, and I thought maybe I should listen. Like, maybe I need to do this because I don’t know what your religion is, but I had a feeling if I don’t do it in this lifetime, I’m going to have to come back. And this is my message. And nobody else was doing it. You know, we nobody else. We all know the Yoda. You know. Do or do not. There is no try. It’s on posters and it’s, you know, hundreds of millions of people know it. But nobody ever said why, why there is no try. But to me, it was vivid and it was like this big, big, huge banner in front of me every day. So. So that’s why, you know, look, I’m, I’m 61. I’ve had freaking 3 or 4 careers. I’ve launched two kids. I want to have fun. My husband’s touring and I want to go out on tour with him and finally be able to do that. But I’m doing the book. I’m working harder than I’ve ever worked in my whole life, and and I’m very passionate about it. So that’s how the idea came up. I just the universe kept pushing me like, meet this person and go meet this person and Mel Robbins has endorsed my book, you guys. That’s just…It’s it’s insanity. That was the universe going. Carla, you you have to do this.

Jean : So when I started reading your book, Carla, I thought she is so on it. This is what we need… That it really generates self-worth  and speaks to who and what we really are.  I mean, I’m just going to, you know, I discount myself and and we sort of inadvertently, unconsciously discount another person’s powerful creative abilities. And so you’re, you’re really wise in in directing. Hey, hey, take a look. Did you fall into this pattern? Um, because there’s a power within you, and it’s our voice, our thoughts, our actions. And, um, you address all of that in your book.

Alison : Yeah.

Carla: Well, thank you so much.

Jean : Yeah.

Carla: Go ahead.

Jean :  Can you give us some tips? Like, if you’re a doer, like something that, like 2 or 3 things that you could offer that just starting to embody..

Carla: Embody, embody the whole thing? Absolutely. Um, thank you for saying that. You know, I just it makes me really sad when people say, well, you know, I’m too old and they just get all the negatives. And then, you know, life is finite. It is passing us by. We don’t have forever. The time is now. And if you could flip your your thinking and just dive in and fail, like fail big time, it’s the greatest thing that can happen to you. Which would be one of the 50 tips I could give you. Really? Okay, so the first thing is become super, super familiar with what trying means. Really, once you know that you’ve conquered a big step and then you ask yourself, you know, look, both of you are successful women. You’ve had amazing careers and life times and look what you’re doing, right? But there’s probably some area of your life where you’re choosing to try. I don’t know what it is. It could be, you know, I, I wonder, like, why do people say, well, I’m going to try to spend more time with my kids, right? You’re going to have heart that spend more time with your kids. Do the action right. Trying means that means, you know, on one Saturday we go to the park and then everything falls off the cliff. That’s a trying effort, okay? Or I’m going to try to work on my marriage.

Carla: I’m going to try to schedule my dermatology appointment every year. I have to do it. I’m going to try, try, try. We end up not doing it because that’s no action. And then we find out we have skin cancer, right. So you have to ask yourself. Look, I know I can do, I know I’m capable and I’m doing all these things. So ask yourself, why am I choosing to try here? What is the thing that I’m avoiding and afraid of? So that’s one way. Um. Another thing is literally start really small. So I love to give this little example because when you get the hit of doing, you’re just like, wow, what else can I do? Because I want that feeling again. Okay. Now. So we all have the junk drawer in the kitchen. Okay. The drawer or wherever it is that you can’t close because the empty tape container, the the scissors, the the crap that’s in there, right. All the it doesn’t even close. So, you know, I walk by that thing and I go in and out of it. I’m, like, scurrying around looking for a screwdriver and a whatever. So one day I’m like, oh, my God. Like, I’m just going to do this. I’m going to clean it. And it took me maybe eight minutes.

Carla: Okay, I just got a little garbage thing. Boom boom boom. It was so beautiful. I had everything in their little place, and I felt so good. It wasn’t as hard as I created it in my mind. Like, I’m going to try to get around to it half the time. The things that we say we’re going to try to do are just getting bigger and bigger in our heads. And, um, I did it. And then I felt great. It’s so good that I like, I’d walk by and I’d open it up and I’d look, yeah….

Alison : I’m the Same way…

Carla:  right?

Jean : God, that looks so great.

Carla: It’s so great.

Alison : I got a closet and i open it like..Oh, oh, yeah. Right.

Carla: And so do something little. So start small. As with everything, become aware of why you’re trying and that you are in fact even trying. You can enlist, help, have people around you kind of catch you when you say it. I’m a strong believer in the power of silence. So when I was writing my book, there were people in my family that didn’t even know, a lot of my friends had no idea. I don’t need to talk about what I’m doing. I just do it, because the talking part is where you’re giving away your energy and you know…. Right, does that resonate with you?

Jean : Yeah. Absolutely. And not only, um, it’s just adding you just don’t want naysayers or and you spoke about this or….

Alison : I have an idea for chapter four, carla, do this like you don’t.

Carla: . Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And you know what’s so interesting? I love what you said, Jean, about you don’t want other people’s input because sometimes, unfortunately, people that you share with, they’re not happy for you. They don’t want you to succeed. And sometimes people can come from a very loving place. You know, Carla, you’re really going to write another self-help book. There’s so many out there. I don’t want you to be disappointed. I don’t want you to, you know, so it can come from a loving place or it can come from a not. So you protect yourself and you hold all that energy. I mean, I, I have conversations with Oprah Winfrey like I’m literally sitting in front of her. I fantasize about it. You know, like, I, I, I want this to be successful, but I’m not going to share that. I’ve never even told anybody that. But you girls, you know, like i keep a lot of stuff to myself. So power of silence is so powerful. Um. Starting small. Um, uh, become aware of the use of the word try. And, um, I’m just going to I want to tell you this other thing. So we all make lists, you know, you’ve got. I would say a big thing is to really don’t make the lists the, the to do list. What that is, is a try to list. And what happens in our brain, it’s called the zeigarnik effect that not a lot of people know about. The Zeigarnik effect means that when you have a list of stuff you’re trying to get done or your to do list, it’s unfinished business, then our brain loves to hold on to and gravitate toward unfinished, and they’re stored as incomplete loops in our brain. So we have all these incomplete loops. Imagine like energy going to all those. It’s like the brain just boom boom boom focusing. And the way to alleviate that is do the one thing, just do one thing on the list. And the loop closes and it’s gone. And now you have more space and more calm. You don’t have as much as much anxiety. You have that release of energy. Wow, I did that. Then you do the next thing and the next thing. So yeah, we’ve got all these unfinished loops. It’s why cliffhangers work. You know, the entertainment world does it.

Carla: It’s it’s. wait. How’s it going to end? So we think about it all week and we talk about it. Oh, I can’t wait for, you know, Thursday night, the season ending of whatever. It’s a science. It’s real. And when you cram for a test as a student, you’re cramming. You’re cramming. You’ve got all this information. But the minute you take the test, you close the loop and then you don’t remember any of it, right? So you be aware that this is like our brain is working. And when we’re trying and doing all these things, we’re we’re not helping ourselves. We really are not helping ourselves.

Alison : Do you have any like it was interesting that you said, um, like, there might be some things that we’re avoiding or like trying to do. Do you have anything like that left in your life? Like, do you have any fears or anything like that for you currently?

Carla: Yeah, we we we try. Did you read the, uh, the intro about my son in the car?

Jean : Yes, yes.

Carla: Okay. And it was such a great analogy. It happened like, as I was writing the book and I was like, why did I keep trying to make that thing work? Why didn’t I go to the dealership and say, look, guys, my monitor. It’s Russian roulette. I can’t get the AC to work, I can’t get the radio to work. And and I just suffered with it, you know, and I got used to it. And I just expected that maybe one day it would work. Right? Trying to deal with it. And when he pulled back, I mean, we died laughing. It was incredible. But I said, that is amazing because when you stop trying, you are literally peeling back your layer of what you’re not doing. And so, of course, I mean, it is hard for me now because I’m so hyper aware of trying, but, um, and it’s not my nature. I tend to start and in the music business, if I wanted to get on a record, it was like, what do I need to do? And I just see the ending. I, I don’t I don’t see the roadblocks in the way. I just see what I want and either I get there or I don’t, or I pivot and figure out a way in. So but I’m sure I will try again in my life and they will come up.

Alison : It makes me feel a little better. And then I had one other question. I’m not sure I can fully put this into words. Um, the the I how do you know if you’ve done it? Like like like, let’s say you had written this book and you have it in your computer and it’s done, and no one wants to put it out there. Let’s just say that that had happened. It was a great book, so that never would have happened. But something like that, like you put in a lot of the work, you actually did the action and then for some reason, what you had expected or what you had thought was the full experience of it doesn’t come to fruition. Would you consider yourself still having done it? Do you understand my question?

Carla: Oh, yeah. It’s a great it’s a fantastic question. So first of all, the trying effort is, you know, I’m going to start writing the book but never finishing. But okay, you finish the book, you actually send it out to 20 publishers and everybody comes back and says, no, that’s called trying. Doing is, I’m going to send it to 20 more. You have heard all the stories of J.K. Rowling, who was turned down by everybody. So you keep going until either someone says yes or you self-publish. Okay. There are ways to get it out there. You, you. Instead of going to publishers now you go to literary attorneys, literary agents. You find someone or you find someone that will, you know, believe in your story. And you know what? If all roads lead to no, at some point and it’s not what you wanted it to be. You know, if this book doesn’t sell copies, I’ve, i’ve already won.

Carla: Yes, I’ve already won. I did what I said I was going to do. If I didn’t even get a publisher, I’d already won. I said I wanted to write the book and I did it. Now, yes, I want people to read it. I’m already a winner. But how do you know if you’ve succeeded or failed? That’s within you. And that’s your personal set of what do I want to get out of this? So if you write a book and everybody turns it down, I’m sorry. There are so many ways you can self-publish these days. You could even print up 50 copies and put them online and let your friends buy them, you know? But if that’s not the level you want, then you pivot and you say, maybe it wasn’t, uh, for me to do this. How else can I get my message out there? Maybe I’ll just become a speaker and I’ll volunteer at the local rotary clubs, which every city has them with. You know, people that want to learn and business people that you can help. So you just keep doing is the answer to that.

Alison : Thank you. Thanks. Because I thought that was, you know, you are so supportive. And this, you know, this almost felt like a spiritual book to me.

Carla: Oh my gosh.

Alison :  especially at the end. I loved your trailblazer tips.

Carla: And then soulful solutions.

Alison : Yes. And I just really thought that that I can see how the universe was supporting you because it really is just really very, very beautifully done, I appreciated it.

Carla:  wow.

Jean : And I want to speak to just a a quote. You need to be definite with the infinite.

Alison : Mhm.

Jean : Because if you’re um, if you’re, if you’re wishy washy that’s what you’re going to sort of get back.

Carla: Mhm.

Jean : We live in a reflective universe and, and so um you’re really giving us back our power to create and, and craft the lives that, that we, we really desire from our heart, rather than just half heartedly go through, through life and and what a pity it it is to to wrap up this life when we never know when we’re being called home and having regrets because we, we kind of tried through life.

Carla: So true. Having regrets. 100%. I’m very honored and I love that you both interpreted it that way. I do feel very connected with the universe, and that’s why I’m doing this. It’s not I don’t I’m a behind the scenes star maker. Like, I have made careers and I’m I’m not comfortable in the front. But you know what? I had to do it. I have to do it because that’s my gift. Um, and I also just I wanted to say it earlier, but I want to make sure that I get it in here. How are we on time? Are we okay?

Alison : Yes.

Carla: Okay. Um, by the way, we already know this. It’s already in us, and we already utilized this, but on a on an unconscious level. So I my job has been to bring this to our conscious level and our daily use. For example, you wouldn’t put your money in a bank that says we’re going to try to keep track of your money and I’ll try to have it available to you when you want it. Nope. We don’t go to that bank. Right? And you wouldn’t go to a surgeon that says, I will try to remember which limb to remove in the room. No. You want the person that’s going to amputate the correct limb. And we don’t tell our kids on their first solo drive out of our driveway, in our car, you know, try to stop at the stop signs, try to try not to drive too fast. Right. We we don’t put the money in that bank. We don’t buy the bottle that says tries to relieve your headache. It’s the one that relieves it quicker, faster and better than anybody else. So we’re making decisions on an unconscious level where we’re not allowing for trying in our life. And this is like kind of eye opening, right? We don’t think about it. And we’re also not given the opportunity to try at the same time. The airline doesn’t say, can you try to be here at 930 because we want to try to take off by 10:00? No, it’s it’s be here. But that doesn’t mean it’s going to take off just because you don’t try to get there.

Carla: Your flight may be canceled and storms may come up, but if you’re not there, you’re not increasing your odds of getting on that flight. And, um, if you don’t charge your car or put gas in your car, it’s going to stall. It’s going to not function. You can’t not pay your mortgage payment or rent payment. We don’t we’re not given the option to try to pay our mortgage and try to do this. And I think one of your guests, I can’t remember the podcast, but it was about being hungry. And I think she even said trying to eat, like, what does that even mean? I’m going to think about getting dinner. I’m going to think about what I want. Unless you’re eating the food that’s going to, you know, you can’t try to eat. You have to you can’t try to, you know. So we already know this. It’s in there. So we just need to bring it up. And all everything your relationships, when you’re not trying to be a good friend or trying to be patient with someone, or trying to be generous or trying to work on your, you know, time with somebody when you’re doing it. It’s a totally different set of actions, and they’ll be better and your business will be better. Your health will be better, your everything will be better. You’ll finally stop trying to learn to play piano. And you’re either, you know, okay, there’s one place that I tried.

Alison : I that’s a great story in the book.

Carla: Oh my God. You know, I tried I’m like, screw this. Actually, I decided I’m not going to do it. And um. Oh my God, I feel like I could just like I have the stream of conscious stuff. I want to say. That’s all in there. I could I just should read the book. Right? Um, out loud. But, um, another thing, you know, one of the big highlights when I’m speaking to women and women’s groups, which I do all the time. And if you ever want me to speak to anybody, I will. But they love it when I do the part about learn to say no. You know, it’s not kinder to say no. But this is the other part that really gets everybody excited. Is that not doing something, choosing not to do it? I’m not going to do that. Is stronger than saying I’ll try and failing.

Alison : Yeah.

Carla: So you know my example, I probably didn’t put it in the book. But, you know, I used to go on vacation with the family and I’d be like, I’m going to try to, like, eat healthy and I’m going to try to go to the gym and I would Google the gym like, oh good, they have a gym and I’m just going to stay on my plan. And then I’d get there and I’d want to sleep late. I’m like, I’m on vacation, I don’t really want to work out, and I want the fruity thousand calorie drink at the pool. And I’d have it and then. But I’d feel terrible. I’d think, wow, you know I’m not. I said I was going to try to eat better and try to exercise, and but I’m not doing that. And now I’m like, sucking at my vacation because I’m giving myself all this mental crap. But now I just say, oh my gosh, like, look out, look out, bar….You know…Look out. I am not even going to look at the gym. I’m not doing anything. I’m going to enjoy my vacation because I know when I make the decision to do it, it’ll be as strongly as when I make the decision not to.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : I think that I have definitely, as I’ve gotten older, said, no, that does not interest me.

Jean : Yeah,

Alison : It Doesn’t interest me. I don’t want to go skydiving.  It’s Not in my wheelhouse.  you know, I’m 66, I don’t I you know, I want to stay in the plane.

Alison : So. You know, I totally I, I loved that piano story so much. That so resonated with me. I don’t want to give it away because I want people to buy your book.

Jean : Yeah. Your stories…

Alison : Yeah, they are great.

Carla: Oh my gosh, thank you.

Jean : And, um, I just want, you know, I know we could we could talk forever about this gorgeous book you wrote. I also think it’s timely, Carla, because I feel as a human race, we are being asked to be more self-responsible, not to give our power away, to really speak up more and to become the best we can really be for ourselves and our, you know, and that ripples out. So, um, my goodness, you are just so inspiring! I love your book. I didn’t finish it yet, but I am. I am going to finish it. I’ve listened to. I’m not going to try. I will finish it. But this has been so great..

Alison : I really enjoyed it. So thank you so much. And we just have two quick wrap up questions. First one is our podcast is called Inside Wink. What do you think? What does that mean for you?

Carla: Yeah, I read that I have to answer that question this morning. I was like, oh, I’m so glad I read that. You know, to me it’s a couple of things. It means, a knowing that you don’t even have to express verbally, you know, maybe with two friends, just an understanding of a situation and somebody like a beautiful kind of I get it. I got it’s like your own little I got this kind of a feeling of confidence and inside wink and, um, the other one was just being in on something that nobody else is in on. Like having just having a secret, you know?

Jean : Yeah, yeah. Beautiful.

Alison : I really love that. You know, Dolores. Dolores, our mutual friend, is so lucky because you’re such you’re really a woman’s pal. You know, you’re really a good. I can really feel it from you. And then you have the last question.

Jean : Absolutely. Uh, okay. Carla, uh, do you prefer cake? Pie or ice cream?

Carla: Easy pie.

Alison : Really good.

Carla: 100%. I love pie. We’ve actually started on the birthdays now. Like, instead of just doing the cake, like, what are you going to eat? Like, we’re sick of, like, having two. And for me, in any flavor, peach, blackberry, cherry. It doesn’t matter I love pie. I love the, the, you know, eating it as you walk by with a fork. I love eating the crust. I just I love it warm. I love it cold, I love pie. It’s irresistible to me. I eat a piece of pie anytime I have an opportunity to do so.

Alison : Oh, I love that.

Jean : Wonderful.

Carla: Well, I know one of you is a baker. You’re a baker. You’re a baker?

Jean : Yes.

Carla: And, uh, you bake good pies?

Jean : You know, pie is not easy to make. It’s the crust. I mean, if you’re going to go all in the crust, you know, takes a little time and, um. But, um. Yeah, I used to make a lot of pies. Now I live on my own, so I…

Carla: You can still make pie.

Alison : I’m an eater. I’m just an eater, that’s all.

Carla: What’s your favorite?

Alison : Me? Yeah, I, I like sort of the mixture of everything. Like, I like pie with ice cream or cake with ice cream.

Carla: Or cake with pie.

Alison : Like the turducken. Like, put the ball on a plate and I’m happy. My birthday is on Monday and I’m trying to, you know, figure out how to get as much of that in me in the next week because I just enjoy it. I love it, you know.

Carla: I love it. Now you have a reason to bake a pie, Jean.

Jean : That’s right,

Alison : thank you so much. Carla.

Carla: Thank you for having me. Follow me on Instagram. Because every day, like I do really fun posts and really great little moments from our life where we try and how not to do that. So I that’s always a great thing. And I love sharing on Instagram or TikTok.

Alison : I can’t wait till I watch you on Oprah.

Carla: Right?

Carla: Yes, right. Energy. Energy out in the universe.

Alison : I know it.

Jean : We live in a possible infinite universe, so why not?

Carla: Thank you.

Alison : thank you so, so much.

Carla: I Appreciate this.

Alison : Have a great afternoon.

Carla: All right. I’m glad you made it.

Alison : Me too.

Alison : It was so much fun.

Carla: Bye bye, ladies. Thank you.

Jean : Okay. She was fantastic.

Alison : And so interesting. And I feel like it’s perfect for right now.

Jean : Me too.

Alison : For our mindset to get people for stop. Stop maybe worrying or, you know, spinning and actually start to do something because I think everyone will feel better.

Jean : Yes, exactly. I think I don’t know who I think you and I were talking about this, that sometimes when you feel anxious, the antidote to that is to actually do something. If you’re spinning in your head, do something, go for a walk, or do the thing that you’re thinking about. Just do it and you’ll feel so much lighter in your mind.

Alison : Right? And I think it’s amazing, after reading this book and speaking with Carla, how much the word try is in my vocabulary.

Jean : Yeah, we are so conditioned with that word. And, uh, I love that she talked about women and saying no. And and the falseness behind… It’s it’s a kind way to be to just say I’m trying. And actually, a real loving way is to speak your truth and go, hey, this isn’t going to work for me. Please keep me.

Alison : In the loop.

Jean : In the loop for next time or whatever. You know, whatever she she was sharing. But I loved her book.

Alison : Yeah. And it’s it’s a great read, great exercises. And, um, I like that just to start small like, right, right now, you know, just doing, listening to this podcast you’re doing and that and just to start small doesn’t have to be like, oh, I’m gonna.

Jean : Never say try again.

Alison : Right, right. Just start small. You don’t have to build a whole house. Just start. So.

Jean : That’s right.

Alison : It’s great. So thank you so much, Carla. I’ve learned a lot and.

Carla: Yes. And it was great to see you. Yeah, great to see you again.

Alison : And we know Carla through our friend Dolores. And boy, she’s another fantastic woman.

Jean : Yeah. We are surrounded by beautiful women, good friends inside and out there. Everyone is just such a a beautiful being.

Alison : We’re very lucky.

Jean : And empowered and lovely people.

Alison : And I love at the end about just giving gratitude and being grateful for where you are.

Jean : Right.

Alison : And that the opportunity to move forward.

Jean : Well said.

Alison : I’m going to eat more M&Ms.

Jean : Okay.

Alison : Okay. Goodbye.

Alison : Yes… Look at that, it’s working.

Jean: Good job.

Alison : Thank you. How you doing?

Jean: I’m good. I feel a little tired today.

Alison : Do you?

Jean: Yeah. How about you?

Alison : Um. Yeah. I mean, it’s been a busy time.

Jean: Mhm.

Alison : It feels like there’s been a lot going on.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison : And I don’t know if it’s like in the world or what. I don’t know, but I do feel like wow I got.

Jean: Yeah. You know I feel like um exactly like you….like there’s a lot going on…. So, um, but I am so happy that we get to interview Audrey Graves.

Alison : Oh, she sounds wonderful. You you met her. You saw her give a speech?

Jean: Yes. At the Braille Institute. Um, they were having their, um, Braille Challenge award dinner, and I was invited by a fellow board member from the Helen Keller International. Uh, Don Winfrey. He invited me and Allison, i was blown away and totally inspired by these children. Um, yeah, I mean, it’s it’s so interesting to see how beautiful other people help other people. And, um, so Audrey really pulled at my heart, and I was so grateful that she said, yes, I’ll be on your podcast.

Alison : Well she won Teacher of the year and the things I read about her. And plus it took I took a deep dive about Braille now.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison : And it’s fascinating.

Jean: Like, it is fascinating. Listen to this statistic. 90% of employed adults who are blind read Braille. It’s such an important skill to have.

Alison : Yeah. it’s six dots… It’s just like you’d go, wow…. Like it’s just amazing. And I can’t wait to meet her.

Jean: Yeah,

Alison : Yeah, it’s going to be great. Should we do it?

Jean: Let’s do it.

Alison : Okay. Here’s Audrey.

Jean: Audrey, this is so great. Thank you for doing this.

Audrey : I’m just thrilled when That when that message was forwarded to me, I just went, oh, my gosh. What? I was just, I was just thrilled and oh, and just so you know, it it was Husker Nebraska Cornhuskers… It was the tailgate party today. So that’s why I’m wearing..

Alison : I love it. So I love that.

Audrey : Yeah. Yeah. So we had a party today I.

Jean: Well this is Alison.

Alison : I’m Alison.

Audrey : Hi. Nice to meet you.

Jean: And I’m, Jean and I’m  the one that was at the, um, the Braille award dinner that night that you won–

Audrey : Yes.

Jean: Um, the teacher of the year award, which was a national award given by the Braille Institute. And Audrey, your speech– our table was was in awe, as was the room. But moreover you so deservedly.

Audrey : Thank you.

Jean: Um. you were the perfect person for this award. I know there are other amazing people out there, but we’re focusing on you. Congratulations. Um. And I just knew I wanted to introduce you to my dear friend Allison and have you on our show.

Alison : It’s exciting to meet you. I read all about you, and, um. Thank you. It’s, um. It’s so interesting because I feel like right now, with all the technology, um, it’s still existing Braille, it’s still so important.

Audrey : It it is, um, a lot of people with technology and technology is wonderful, but we all know that technology can fail.

Alison : Yes.

Audrey : Um, and we always say that Braille never fails. It is there for you. So when you have it on the elevator, when you, um, need to take a note or whatever it is, if, um, you are, um, an individual who is blind and uses Braille, you know, you can count on that. So it looks complicated. But if you are an individual who learns braille, it’s just like when we’re learning to read and you’re learning your letters and putting those together as words. An individual who is blind is learning that in that dot configuration instead.

Jean: And that dot configuration, that is that was really interesting.  So it’s,  do you want, can you explain?

Alison : It’s like six dots in a row, right? .

Audrey : So if you think of, um, if you’re playing a game and you have a dice, you have six dots and so on the left side, top dot would be an A. And then so if you think of the dice on the left side, you’d have one, two, three. And on the right side you have four five, six. So the top one is on the left side is an A – 1, 2 would be a B and then 1, 4,  across would be a C. So it continues this pattern as you go through. But then you have to go beyond the alphabet. So then an A is also a one. But you have to have a number indicator in front of it to make it a one. So you also have the math code that you learn. And then um, to read a book just letter by letter. You know, when we see a word, we kind of, you know, we don’t just look at your name and look at every letter. That would take, you know, forever. You kind of put it together into one word. It’s the same way with with Braille. They have contractions. So they have a contraction for EA, or they have a contraction for and or the that forms into one single cell. So after the letters you learn contractions and short form words and and so on. So there’s more than just the letters.

Alison : So that’s similar to sort of sign language where they might have um, like as opposed to spelling every single letter out, you would be able out– but just out of those six dots, you would have a contraction or symbol for a word.

Audrey : Yep. Out of those six dots. Yep.  you would um, you would make that into something else.

Alison : That’s that’s to me, I think English is a challenging language to learn anyway.

Audrey : Yes,

Alison : You know and this sounds like like, how do you know if something’s capital?

Audrey : So you have a capital sign indicator. So you would have a dot six which is a capital sign. Or if you have all caps and then you would have two capital signs. So there there is punctuation. Um, there’s uh there’s all of that… They’ve had to create more, so as you would get the At symbol, or if you would have, you know, as more things are created with, um, texting or with, um, I don’t know, all, all the cool things that are happening.

Alison : Right. right…

Audrey : They have to create that to keep up with any codes that are happening now. Um, there’s coding in braille coding classes for that. Um, they just keep up with everything that that their sighted peers are keeping up with as well.

Alison : What inspired you to begin this? Like what was your journey like to get here?

Audrey : Well it’s interesting. So education in general. My my parents are both teachers. I grew up in a small town, um, less than 2000 people. Small town. Fullerton, Nebraska. And my parents were both my teachers. I had them as my teachers. And I have family members who are teachers as well. And and I guess it was just kind of the way I was going with things. And, um, ended up going into teaching special education, and I taught in a public school. Um, I taught high school special education for about six years. And then, um, and I was just commuting just about a half hour to work. And then after having my son, I just thought, I just don’t know if I want to commute. Not that it was that far. And just look to see… Are there jobs in Nebraska City? That’s just where  we happen to live. And, um, and the Nebraska Center for the Education of Children who are blind or visually impaired is just literally five blocks from my house.

Alison : Wow.

Audrey : And I went, well, well, I don’t know what about that. And I looked at it before, but I wasn’t sure. And they happened to have a teacher opening, and I’d also gone back and got my administrative degree. Did I really want to be a principal? I’m like, ah, I don’t know. But you know, you kind of work on your master’s degree and you’re looking for leadership and and so, I don’t know, I kind of I went into that– loved students and started doing that and then went back to school to get my visual impairments degree. And then I’ve been there ever since. This is my 21st year. And I’ve worked as a teacher. Um, I’ve worked as, um, a principal and then went back to working in outreach as a consultant because my, my, my favorite thing are the students. So, um, so I’ve worked in a variety of roles here, and, I don’t know, maybe the job kind of chose me. Um, I just, I just, I love it. I love working with the students.

Jean: Yeah. I mean, everything I’ve read about you emphasizes that how much you love the students and how much they love you.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean: That you make the learning fun and interactive. It’s just not a  cardboard or whatever. And I, I yeah, I love that. So so you had to learn,  did you learn Braille?

Audrey : Yes.

Jean: Yes. so you learned Braille?

Audrey : I don’t read it with my fingers.

Jean: Okay.

Audrey : Um, I read it with my eyes, So I learned the dock configuration so I know what the dots look like. If I were to look at the dots, you know, outside the elevator, I can read that or to create Braille… So you take the six dots, you know, vertically and then you turn it horizontally to Braille. So then I can Braille that way. Um, but then there’s also programs that you use to take print and um, create Braille to be embossed. So, um, I took a semester of literary braille and then a semester of, um, um, numerical braille, you know, for math. Um, so you take that and, and then you use that to, to teach. And so then you also, you know, gain experience with the more students that you work with.

Alison : Just as a teacher, like, don’t you? I think teachers are facing such a challenging time right now.

Audrey : Yes.

Alison : And like, what do you see as the biggest challenges for teachers now? Because I have a lot of friends that are teachers. I think teachers are like miracle workers and like golden saviors.

Jean: Heroes.

Alison : Yes, a lot of them really feel so, you know, AI and texting and all these things that are happening like, what are you what are you feeling about everything? Like some challenges.

Audrey : A lot of the challenges are, you know, you go into teaching because you you love what you do. You love the students. And then, but there’s so many expectations on top of that. There’s some there’s a lot of there’s a lot of paperwork that goes along with it. And then you need to prove this and prove this and then state testing. So for example, I had a district, um, that I just went to yesterday, and they were already doing maps, testing. You know, kids have been in school for a few days and they’re already testing the kids. Mhm. Um, and then trying to get teachers is difficult. Um, people don’t, aren’t always wanting to go into teaching anymore because, um, the salaries are not the greatest. People don’t go into teaching for the money. Um, and then sometimes the support, you may have large class sizes and not have the support that you need. And, and there’s, there can be challenging students and challenging parents, just as many as the wonderful students and the wonderful parents.

Jean: Right.

Audrey : Um, and then you’re thrown in so many directions. The technology is always changing. Um, the rules are always changing. The expectations are always changing. Um. Safety. We saw that in the news.

Alison : Yeah.

Audrey : Recently. Um, it’s there’s a lot of difficult jobs out there, and and teaching is one of them. And we just we need the the understanding and support. And sometimes the fun is lost because you get overwhelmed. And there’s so many expectations that you have a hard time having fun with the students.

Jean: Yeah.

Audrey : So.

Alison : Right. Definitely. And then on the flip side, why do you love it?

Audrey : Why do I love it? I, I guess I, I love it just because every, every student comes with their, just their unique abilities, um, and personalities and, and it just every kid brings…. So much joy and potential into this world. I mean, I was working with a student today and we were doing this story on apples. And, um, and the student has no vision. And we were, um, doing things with, um, counting apples and the concept of them. And, and it was just this book on it, and he was kind of tapping each of the apples, and then the wind blew the apple, and then he decided he wanted to throw that apple. He thought that was hilarious. It was just like. And then he would hear it bounce, and he just thought it was the funniest thing ever. But then we had something on the iPad with the story that went with it, and just as soon as we went, he, um, learned how to touch the iPad to advance the story, and then he could do it on his own. So he gained a skill that made him more independent on turning that page. So he learned that skill. Um, or in another school district, i have a student who is a senior, and she lost vision in her high school years, and she’s college bound and going in this year. She came in, you know, ready to utilize technology that she has and think about those next steps and and and go from there. And just seeing her-  the challenges that she faces, yet looking towards the future…. You know she inspires me to want to do more. So I think it’s just you never have two days that are the same, and it keeps my brain flowing. And I think that’s what I love about it is that I’m never bored…i’m always looking to be creative. And how can I help this student learn? And that’s that’s what I love about it.

Alison : Oh, I think I love that.

Jean: Yeah. That’s so beautiful. And and that’s what you spoke about when you received your award and how fulfilling it is to be in service, of service to another human being.

Jean: And. Children that come in with these personalities… there are no filters, i got to see some of them at the award evening and it is, you know, really a beautiful thing when you are inspired by another person going like, and I don’t have to I know you understand what I’m saying, but very similar to, to what you were sharing with the student. You know, you get inspired by wow, you’re moving through that? Okay. Then That will help me be inspired and i love that. Do you, um, how many like, how many students do you teach in one semester?

Audrey : Oh, it varies. It varies. So, last year I would see students in,  i had around 25 students that I would see in different areas. So I would go to this school and I had six different students that I would see on this day. And then I would go to this school and I would see five here, and then I’d go to this school and maybe have 1 or 2, uh, so it depended on each school. But when you would travel, you know, it’d be an hour there and back. So you have to travel time as well. Um, each year is is different. And the students, some students I see once a week, some students I see twice a month. It just depends on the need. So, um, so this year, I, you know, there’s some students that I see, um, weekly and I’ll see them for 30 minutes a week to catch up. And then I have another one I see for an hour and a half a week, just because of the amount of items that she’s working on. And then I’m also working with some students on campus here at our center for the blind. So it truly changes. And then sometimes it’s the students having some concerns with their vision, so they’ll reach out to us and then we’ll go out and do an assessment. Um, some students come on campus and we’ll do, um, some work with them in an apartment in our residential area to work on cooking skills, cleaning skills.

Alison : Wow.

Audrey : And and we’re even this year we’re going out to different areas and inviting students to come to local educational service units to, um, work on social skills and cooking. You know, we’re coming to them to help provide services.

Alison : That’s fantastic. Yeah.

Jean: So you do more than just teach Braille?

Audrey : Yes. So, yeah. And it all depends on the student’s needs. So. So I teach braille. Um, I teach, um, technology. So let’s say a student needs to use a Braille device… I may have never used it, so, girl, you better learn how to do that.

Alison : That’s right.

Audrey : Um. So, uh. Yeah. So you get you you have to learn it. You can’t just say, I don’t know how to use this. You have to learn.

Alison : Wow.

Audrey : Expanded core curriculum, that’s another area where all the different skills that that we would learn… If you are someone who has has vision, if you heard your mom or dad in the kitchen doing something, you might go in and go, oh, they’re putting toast or putting toast.  haha they’re putting bread in the toaster. If you’re blind, you don’t know what’s going on unless someone tells you or shows you. So expanded core curriculum has to do with all that incidental learning that you don’t you don’t know. So it’s all these areas that you have to explicitly teach to students. So I have students that I’m working with on laundry skills or independent living skills or social skills or literacy or  math. It’s just all dependent on their individualized education plan.

Alison : That’s huge. It’s huge to me.

Jean: I don’t know how you had time to to go and take a shower.

Alison : that’s kind of incredible. That’s a lot.

Audrey : It it can be. But this is why, you know, we have our team, and we can go… Okay, what are you doing about this? And how are you doing this? … And we have a great team nationwide. It’s a  low incidence disability, but it allows all of us to really know each other nationwide.

Alison : And you had mentioned one child earlier, that was had sight and then lost it, and then one child that never had sight.  have to address that differently? Like is there an a an emotional. ,I mean I’m wondering that must be an incredible life change that person’s going through?

Audrey : It can be. Yes, it can be a huge difference because you could have a student, a child that has been blind since birth. So there’s never been that concept. And sometimes they may wonder what that would be like? But it hasn’t been there. Or they may have some faint memories or may just see color and light, but it hasn’t been there. And then you have someone who has been in an accident and lost their sight suddenly, or a genetic condition, and is gradually losing vision, so it changes monthly. There is such an emotional impact that goes with that. You think about someone who is turning 16 and their peers are all getting their driver’s license. And then you were expecting that, and now you’re not.

Alison : Yeah.

Audrey : How does that not affect you or all of your life? You’ve read print and now it’s blurry. How do you access the print? You’re not a Braille reader, right? Are you going to pick that up right now? Um, you may learn some of that, but maybe that’s not your primary. So you’ve got to look at other tools to to be able to keep up. So you have to factor that into, um, the lessons as well.

Jean: You wear so many hats, Audrey

Audrey : There are a lot of parts to it, but I think it all comes down to communication. You  talk to the parents and you talk to the team, and you just look at the student and you just try to think of that student. If this was your own child and what would you want for them, and what would you want them to access and the opportunities that you would want for that child? And I think that is what makes the difference, um, for that student. And that’s, that’s what I try to look at.

Alison : You must have you just must be a fountain of love or something because, like, that’s kind of amazing. And could you tell me, I keep picking your brain because my eldest child just has a job as a teacher right now, and just new and starting… How do you keep your kids motivated?

Audrey : Well, it can be hard some days because you will have you will have students that no matter what you do, they’re not motivated, right? And you can try as much as you can and they won’t be motivated. And and you just sometimes have to get to the end of the day and realize you did the best that you could. You put the effort together, you put forth the effort, and you did what you could, and you have to stop there because otherwise you’re going to take that all on yourself and it’s going to bring you down. Um, it you want to have success, but you can create the opportunity, but they’re not always going to take it. Um.

Jean: But that’s a great way for life.

Alison : I was just going to say.

Jean: Just just showing up, doing your best and then letting it go. And some days it’s going to be, wow, I, I nailed it. And other days is like, get me through this.

Alison : Yeah, exactly.

Audrey : And and I’ll tell you, I have my days. You know, I have way more good days than bad days. Um, I have days where I come in, I’m like, oh my gosh, how am I going to get this done? And I have all these reports, and it’s been a late night doing this, and I’m going, I’m not even prepared for tomorrow.

Alison : Yeah.

Audrey :  I am very much human. And there’s days I’m like, oh, what is going on here? But I, I have to allow myself those moments and then do, do what I need to do.

Alison : Right.

Audrey : Ice cream,  this, that… Whatever. Vent to my friends. Um, I have my  key colleagues. Whatever you need to do… But then you have to, you can’t dwell on it. You have to find your spot to move forward.

Alison : …Right. And now, if you were going to talk to the parents that are listening or the grandparents that are listening… How can you really be the best family ally for a teacher?

Audrey : I think the best thing is, of course, you want to be a team player. And that’s easier said than done, because sometimes you are a part of a team where you maybe don’t have someone who’s listening very well on the team or, um, or just doesn’t mesh very well. Um, you have to look at all the viewpoints, because there might be times that your, your child may not be working as hard as you think they are or vice versa or whatever it is. I, I think in every situation it comes back to communication. Don’t don’t go in just ready to fight, you know, go in with your points, you know, go in with your information, go in with a conversation and a plan and then and then if things don’t go where you need it to go, then move on to those next steps. Take things one step at a time, but be be the best advocate you can for your child, but also make sure your child’s taking responsibility for what they’re doing as well. don’t save them on everything. They need to take some responsibility too.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean: That’s challenging.

Alison : That kind of hit home. Yeah. Yeah.

Jean: Because we all, you know, most parents want to be very supportive and helpful, and it’s hard to see someone you love struggle, but there’s growth in the struggle. And like you spoke about, the self empowerment that comes, which is…. That’s something you have to build on your own, and, the fact that you’re giving that, you know, to, to these young people who are…

Audrey : Yeah.

Alison : So yeah, I do have to ask you, though, did you say your parents were your teachers?

Audrey :  My  mom was my third grade teacher, and that’s always awkward. I’m like, do I call her this,  or… And then my dad,  i had him in some middle school English and history classes and yeah,  he was the stricter teacher and my, my classmates…. They’d be like, why didn’t you tell us he was having a pop quiz? I’d say, Because he didn’t tell me. So, yes, it was a very small town, it was interesting.

Alison : Wow. And I know my kids, when they were in middle school, wanted not as much to do with me. And there’s your dad in the class.

Audrey : Well, but my dad also his room also, um, had all the concession stand candy in it. So that was always nice, because if they wanted a snack, they’re like, hey, hey, can we go in here? So that was always popular too.

Alison : That’s so that’s so funny. So it was a good side.

Audrey : It was a good, there was a good side.

Alison : That’s right. That’s right. What would be your like your wish, um, for where education could go? Or do you have any ideas of how we can make it better? Do you know?

Audrey :  that’s a big question.

Alison : Yeah, because it feels like right now there is so much like, um, there’s so much happening on you know, US government level, and then like, even between the states and the event that just happened in Michigan, (school shooting) it just is a lot…

Audrey : It is. And, you know, I think back to when I was a child, uh, you know, I think back then and how things are now, I just don’t remember as a child having so many, you know, statewide tests. And I get that we need to make sure that the kids are learning. I understand all of that, but it feels like a lot of times, we are teaching to the test. Teaching to the test. And then you have so many extra things you have to get in, that we’re losing time on recess and we’re losing.

Alison : Yeah.

Audrey : Um, the importance for music and arts and all these other things that develop what a child needs that’s where kids are getting upset or angry because they’re not getting these other outlets. Right. Um, and then things are too hard where kids are getting frustrated. And this is where behaviors come out, because it is just too hard. You try to stick me in a in a class for upper physics and see how I’m going to do in there, and I’m  going to get frustrated. Um, I wish that we could put some funding into education that would provide the assistance that our students need. Um, The materials, the assistance that they need that is supporting other areas. You know, everyone needs a good education in this world to get to whatever job we are in this world. Why? Why don’t we focus more importance on it than what we are?

Alison : Yeah, that’s a great answer. That’s a great answer.

Jean: Yeah.

Audrey : Let’s prioritize it more, because every single person in this world needs a good education. So we need to prioritize that.

Jean: Yeah. And it’s just not factual education. I think education really helps one develop their own inner way of being. What resonates with them… And, um, yeah, and I think that, um, to your point before, communication is so important and education really helps expand the way we communicate, you know, and move in the world.

Audrey :  also, we have different routes, you know, not every student is college bound, and that’s okay. Right. And I know a lot of schools do that already, but everyone has a different path. And and you want to go the path that’s best for you.

Alison : I know, I just totally agree. I don’t think education is cookie cutter. Um, and I, just the volunteering in the schools where my, where my kids went and you go, wow. Like the teachers that seem to facilitate and get the most done are the ones that actually are looking at each kid individually and allowing a child to explore their own personality a little bit more. You know, and it sounds like from all the reading we did about you, that you actually you actually do do that. Like you, you bring in a lot of other modalities. And I think that’s exciting. Kids must really look forward to you.

Audrey : That’s what I hope.

Alison : Yeah.

Audrey : That’s always my hope, is that they that they do want to to have that time with me. So even if there’s something that they’re really not excited to work on that they’re willing to because they, they have enough of a relationship with me that, okay, I’m willing to work on the harder things because I know this is something that I should work on and it’s important. And then we’ll get to these other things as well. Um, if you if you build that relationship and that mutual respect, then they’re willing to do to do more. And and then we, you know, then we do the goofy things too. You know, there’s times I’ve broken out in song and this and that, and then I go, what? Oh, God, what did I just do? I don’t even know. And I try to be, you know, have some of my personal items, like I talk about my son Ethan, and he is, you know, and he’s met some of the students at different things. So they know there’s more to my life than, you know… Sometimes we thought our teachers never left. We’re like… our teachers use the bathroom. haha  Do they do anything?  So they know I have a life outside of school, too.

Alison : I remember seeing a teacher once outside of the class and I was like, oh….Like, is something wrong ..I’m like… Like I couldn’t picture that they went home somewhere and they.

Audrey : I Know.

Alison : I was so little it didn’t make sense. It was such a funny thing to see them in the world.

Audrey : Yes.

Alison : I love it when teachers are vulnerable and bring a little bit of their.. Um, my kids third grade teacher had pictures on there, like, around their desk of their family.

Audrey : Mhm.

Alison : And it made them just realize, oh, you have a kid that’s sort of my age.

Audrey : Yeah.

Alison : you know, I kind of, I really kind of love that. I think that’s great. You seem like a lot of fun too. You seem you seem kind of goofy and fun.

Audrey : I, I should have brought– if my son was not at school right now, he would tell you that…. Yes. You would not believe that in elementary school, I was very shy. I was very quiet. I don’t know what happened. Um, but, yes, i’m goofy. I like to be goofy. I like to have fun. Um, yeah. We’re we’re always joking.  My friends and I, and my family, we’re always fun. They’re always like, you’re kind of loud. I’m like, yeah, sometimes. But I think some of the struggles in my life have helped me bring out some of that as well, because, I mean, I’ve had a lot of struggles, um, health wise that, you know, I’ve had my moments where I could just let it really knock me down and just go, what’s the point? And, and, um, but I, you know, I allow myself to have those rough moments and then I go, okay, I can either let this be the bully and let it take this day, these days away from me. Or I can go, nope, nope, I’ve got today and I’m going to, um, and I’m going to have a great one. So I think that’s helped me turn things around too.

Alison : I love that you call it a bully.

Audrey : It is.

Jean: Because it’s so, so true. That voice that is, is taking our joy away. It’s it’s a bully.

Audrey : Yeah.

Jean: That’s what bullies do.

Audrey : Yeah.

Jean: They make us feel less than wonderful.

Audrey : Yeah.

Alison : Yeah, and I love that you’re vulnerable. You know, we we I think that’s the biggest thing that we talk to a lot of people and the people that really open up and just are really truthfully themselves as opposed to what I think a persona of what they think. And you definitely are totally authentic and wonderful.

Audrey : Yeah.

Alison : So I think your students must definitely pick up on that.

Audrey :  I hope so.

Jean: I’m sure, everything I’ve read about you  supports that. You are really wonderful. Yeah.

Audrey :  thank you.

Alison : Do you want to ask our two final questions?

Jean: Okay. So, Audrey, as you know, we wrap up with two questions. And the first one is what does the term or word (because Allison thought of it this word) insidewink mean to you?

Audrey : I had to think about this, which I’m sure everyone says that. So when I thought of inside wink, I thought this meant, you’re kind of your true inner self. Kind of that part of you that no one else will ever really know. You know, we all have those inside Side thoughts, memories, unique things that we carry with us. And that wink part is kind of the knowledge that, hey, I don’t have to share that and I can share parts, or I can choose who knows that part of me and the inside wink is kind of knowing your inner self and being in control of what you want to share with others. So kind of like the wink is like, oh, I can share that or I don’t have to.

Alison : I love that, that that gives you a lot of power.

Audrey : It does. It does.

Alison : We hadn’t heard something like that. So that’s.

Audrey :  oh, really?

Alison : That’s a good one, Audrey.

Jean: And there’s no right or wrong.

Alison : Yeah. We just love the fact that people… And it really reflects a lot of who they are.

Audrey :  yeah

Alison :  i love that— that you don’t, you know, I feel comfortable with you, i’m going to give you a little more, maybe not. Yeah, I kind of love that. But now here’s like the best question because you mentioned it, you mentioned something earlier. What do you prefer, pie, cake or ice cream?

Audrey : Well, you know, of course you gotta love all three…but…

Jean: of course.

Audrey : If I had to choose, I would say cake.

Alison : Really?

Audrey : Yes,

Alison : Because, I thought you were going to sayIce cream?

Audrey : No, I love ice cream. I love it, and I’ve had way too much of it lately. Way too much. But I love it. But there is something about white cake with buttercream frosting that I, i can’t turn down. I don’t know, I don’t know what it is, or like when you have the layer with that middle layer…Or I don’t know what it is, and I don’t know if it’s because it comes with like joyful things such as weddings, baby showers. Yeah. All that. It’s always that white cake with the buttercream frosting. Yeah, there is something about that cake that I love it more than anything, I love it.

Audrey : And you don’t always get it.. Like I go to the store and get ice cream and this and that. But to get a really good piece of white cake with buttercream frosting, that’s my favorite.

Jean: Oh, Julie, if you were here, I would totally bake that for you.

Alison : Audrey.

Jean: I mean Audrey. Sorry. I’m so sorry.

Audrey : Oh. You talked to a lot of people.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean: actually, you were my sister’s name, and I i wasn’t even looking at your name for a long, long time. Oh, Audrey. That’s my sister’s name.

Audrey : Oh. That’s okay.

Jean: So sorry about that.

Audrey : No. That’s okay.

Jean: But do you bake? I don’t know how you would have time.

Audrey : I do actually…i’m known for, um, my chocolate chip cookies.

Alison : Oh.

Audrey : I, I don’t know why they turn out really well. And everyone’s like, oh, gosh, will you bake those? But yeah, I do like to bake.

Alison : That’s fantastic. Well, you know, you got my mouth watering… It’s it’s we we celebrated our birthdays with our friends. We have close birthdays, and we had a piece of that,  like not a white, but like a chocolate with the cream in like, you know, with the big. And man..

Jean: It was delicious.

Audrey : Oh I would. Yeah, that would be good…They area all good. My mom makes, um, really good homemade pie.

Alison : Oh.

Audrey : Um, and my dad has made pie as well, so  I guess I’m spoiled. I always have good pie, too, but they’re all good… You can’t go wrong.

Alison : Yeah.  Thank you so much. And I just can’t even tell you how much we appreciate what you’re doing in the world.

Audrey : Well, I appreciate you guys doing this and sharing. So I think a dog just walked in.

Jean: Hi, buddy. Say hi to Audrey.  Buddy’s here.

Audrey :  I appreciate you guys. Um, I looked up, I looked up, um, inside wink. And I’m going to be following your guys’s stories and so on, that you you’re focusing on positive stories and sharing the good in the world. Um, because it seems like so much that’s reported is so negative anymore that it’s nice to hear, um, positive things.

Jean: And that’s why we wanted you on the show, audrey.

Alison : Thank you really are just so great. And please stay in touch with us.

Audrey : I will, yes, I would love, I would love to stay in touch. That would be great.

Alison : If anything occurs to you or you want to share any thoughts in the future or something good that occurs to you, please, please contact us.

Audrey : Yeah, if you ever want anything shared, um, like in the cancer realm too, I don’t know if you ever do anything with that. I know I didn’t share a lot about that in my speech, but, um, I know that’s near and dear to your heart, Jean. Um, but, um, I’m six years into metastatic breast cancer survivor, and that was my health struggle, that I talked to you about, um, I was first diagnosed at age 29 with breast cancer when Ethan was one.

Alison : Wow.

Audrey : And then was diagnosed with metastatic breast cancer, um, six years ago. And it spread to my bones. And then just actually on Thursday, on Thursday, they found, uh, um, a few small spots on my lungs. So coming off of that, but you know, a bit rough over the weekend, but they’re very, very small, so I’m having to change the medication tonight actually. , that’s where I take every day, to just because you just don’t know, you just don’t know on all these things. So, um, but I have a lot of good mentors and support, and I overall feel, you know, I feel great. I don’t.

Alison : Uh-uh.

Audrey : You have to  focus on every day. But if you ever, If you ever want to talk anything about anything with the journey in that aspect, I’m happy to do that.

Alison : Thank you,

Jean: Thank you.

Alison : Yeah.  I have to say, you you, uh, we will send you so much love and support and please stay, please stay in touch.

Audrey : Yes, yes.

Jean: You’re so special.

Alison : You are. You really are.

Audrey : Thank you.

Alison : And you, and I feel your strength.

Audrey : Thank you.

Jean: Absolutely.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean: And your joy, audrey, is infectious.

Alison : Yeah.

Audrey : Thank you. I appreciate you guys. You guys have made me feel so special through all of this. I was telling everyone, I’m like, I’m doing a podcast tonight. ..I’ve been talking back and forth with Jean… I said, she’s that’s why I feel like I already know you. I said, you’ve been so nice and so sweet.

Jean: I feel the same way..

Audrey : Okay. All right.

Alison : Okay. give our love to your family and have a great day.

Audrey : Thank you. All right.

Alison : Bye.

Alison : She was wonderful, wasn’t she?

Jean: She was I, I just loved her, from the minute i heard her speak at the award ceremony, and she really proved to be someone, uh, so special. And talk about having her own challenge and still choosing to be of service and be inspiring and inspired by life.

Alison : Oh, you put that so well. Because when she talked at the end there about her cancer journey, I thought, and you’re and you’re still giving all this to everybody, right? And, um, what a blessing she is. What an amazing and a teacher of the year… I mean, and being a teacher right now is so complicated. Do you know?

Jean: That’s so true. But like she said, she takes every day, right? And I think that’s. That is the ticket. It’s just to stay present, do your best.

Alison : One step in front of the other and then all of us for her and anyone can send love and kindness and support in any way that we can.

Jean: Yeah. And also I also was thinking that it is having compassion for ourselves and other people because we don’t know what others are going through, and a lot of us keep a lot inside. So, you know, just honoring everyone’s path. And, boy, she’s really doing it.

Jean: Yeah. That was so beautifully put. Thank you. Thank you for that. And thank you so much, Audrey. You are a hero. And, uh.

Jean: And a great spirit and a beautiful woman.

Alison : An inspiration and fun and a cake eater.

Jean: Go cake eater! I love cake also. Okay.

Alison : That’s right. Well, have a great day. And, uh, we’ll talk to you soon.

Jean: Bye.

Alison : Bye.

Alison : Hello. Hello. How are you doing today?

Jean : Are you enjoying the technical studies we’re having this morning?

Alison : We are not technically savvy at all.

Jean : At all.

Alison : But we’re laughing very hard. I’m crying. We’re laughing too hard about this.

Jean : Thank goodness we are self-employed.

Alison : What if someone relied on us for something? It would be terrible tech wise. Like what if. What if someone needed something? We were saying we’re trying to get, like, um, one of our Emma or our team person, and we couldn’t even zoom properly or or text. And I’m like, we’re writing you a letter, Emma. We hope you get it in a couple of weeks. Oh my God.

Jean : Oh, but it’s over.

Alison : That’s right.

Jean : It’s over. And we’re gonna now talk about the magic and the tragic.

Alison : Which is a perfect gift resonating with us here.

Jean : What would be the magic in the tragic of the tragic would be technology?

Alison : Right.

Jean : The magic would be?

Alison : That eventually we did it.

Jean : Yes. And that we’re growing through it.

Alison : We got through it. We’re growing. Right? We decided we don’t love it. We have a viewpoint now.

Jean : Right. And now we’re going to have macaroni and cheese together.

Alison : Which we don’t need, but we’re gonna eat it. Right. But this is this is actually an amazing book.

Jean : Yes. We both really enjoyed reading John’s Tsilimparis’  book called, “The Magic in the Tragic. Rewriting the script on grief and discovering happiness in our darkest days.”

Alison : Yes, and it just is such a good book. And I thought at first, all this is going to be kind of depressing, but it’s not at all. It’s really hopeful. And, um, I got a lot out of it.

Jean : Yeah. Me too. Me too. I, I guess I think, uh, this is such a great book. Just to read when your life isn’t in turmoil or you’re going through something really hard because you’ll have this as a beautiful, uh, tool book to fall back on.

Alison : Yeah. And grief doesn’t have to be, um, you know, losing a parent or something. He was saying, like, in a job, uh, moving, um, a friendship.

Jean : Empty nests?

Alison : Exactly. Empty nests. So here he is. We love him. Here’s John.

John: Nice to see you both.

Alison : It’s so great to meet you and see you. Thank you for doing this.

Jean : Hi John, I’m Jeane.

Alison : And I’m Alison.

John: Hello. Nice to meet you.

Alison : Hi.

Jean : Wow, what a book you wrote.  Um, yeah. I wish I was out a few years ago.

John: Thank you. Yeah.

Jean : But I also think to myself, um, I think this is such an important book to having your hands before you go through something so challenging. Uh, because when you’re going through it, i don’t know about you, but I didn’t feel like reading much, and, um, certainly this information is so valuable, John. Thank you.

John: Thank you. Thanks for taking the time to read it.

Alison : Yeah, we really we read a lot. And, uh, this was was excellent. We we have it. I have mine is all dog eared. We have nose ends to remind us. Um, could you just tell us a little bit about yourself and how you started on this path?

John: So I’ve been a psychotherapist for about 30 years now, just a little over 30, and I’ve worked a lot with people dealing with grief and loss. And so the idea of it, title of it, everything came to me over the years. But, you know, I’m no stranger to tragedy, as most people are not either. And so, um, I have found ways to dignify my grief as opposed to running from it or thinking that, you know, it’s bad for you to stay in it for too long and you need to get over it quickly and stuff like that. So, um, so a combination of my work, um, I love to write, so I like to express myself. I like to help people. And, um, I enjoyed writing about all the classical references in the book and the music and all that stuff, and those are things that have helped me and that have helped my clients. So I knew I was going to write the book years ago, but it just took me a while to put it together. So, um, and if either one of you have ever written a book, you know, it takes a long time to get it done unless you publish it yourself, which I was not interested in doing. So in answer to your question, the origin comes from my own experiences, but also as a clinician as well. Using a lot of these tools with my patients and clients.

Jean : Yeah. And I think that makes you extra compassionate, having gone through your own challenges to to sit with people and hear what they’re going through.

John: So thank you. Yes, I’d like to think so.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : You pepper some of those experiences in the book, but it’s really not about you, which I found interesting. Like you’re very present in it, but it’s not your necessarily your journey. And, um, I feel like we’re living in a time where there is grief on many levels. And have you seen that people’s, um, feelings have changed over the past few years? Did you start writing this during the pandemic?

John: I actually did, good call. I mean, I’ve been thinking about it for years, but during the pandemic is when I started writing it. And yes. So it’s interesting that you say that because, you know, the new CDC numbers are not great. So in the last ten years, depression, instances of depression in the United States has gone up by 60%. And since the pandemic, even more so, most mental health clinicians will agree that since 2020, the beginning of the pandemic, we’ve seen a spike in both anxiety and depression. And again, to your point, given today, the state of affairs in the world, the way that our country is right now, just everything, um, has really left people living with dealing with a different kind of uncertainty. It’s a different kind of norm these days, and I think people are struggling a lot more than ever. Um, but, you know, there’s still a lot of hope around that because the pandemic, one of the bright things about the pandemic is that it made people reach out much more. And before, you know, the governing bodies of all the psychotherapy practices and psychiatry practices weren’t so keen on online therapy. And so now anybody, even if you live two hours away from a big city anywhere in the US, can access somebody from their computer. So that’s been one good thing. So more people are reaching out. But we’re also seeing higher instances, as I mentioned, uh, of anxiety and depression.

Jean : Uh, yeah, I, I noticed that with, with, uh, my kid’s friends-  and my kids are in their early 30s, this anxiety.. and I think there’s a book out called like the, The Generation of Anxiety or something like that. So and thank goodness to your point that the, um, the stigma around mental issues has lessened. Mm. You know, I, I know that my parents, I knew they were going through a lot of stuff, but it was in the closet.

John: Yes. Agreed. Um, that’s what a lot of people tell me. My parents were the same great parents. Immigrants. Uh, but, you know, we didn’t talk about things the way that we should have, in my opinion, and that maybe people do more of these days. Um, also, people are also dealing with what’s called a prolonged grief, like a constant state of, like being stuck in, in constant grieving or bereavement about so many things that have happened. And, you know, even though the pandemic was years ago, people are still assessing their losses around that and still dealing with all of that stuff. So and then here in California, we had the fires in January. We’ve had a lot of stuff going on. And um, so yeah, it’s pretty indicative of what we’re seeing as clinicians in psychotherapy.

Alison : Is grief and depression the same thing?

John: So I’m glad you asked, because first of all, the magic and the tragic, my book doesn’t just address grief as in having lost a loved one. It addresses all the adversity and the challenges and the myriad of things that we go through in life. It could be divorce. It could be breakups. It could be faded dreams, um, career disappointments, financial hardship, fallout from natural disasters. And usually when people are in grief, they usually have low mood. They sometimes feel hopeless. They sometimes stop doing things that that give them pleasure. So in answer to your question, yeah, usually when you’re in grief, you have some degree of depression and sometimes some degree of worry too. But I would say depression is probably the most prominent, um, symptom you get.

Alison : Because I just think that So many people I know now, even though you’re right, they have that… They have hope, there is also this underlying sense of, um, of loss. Uh, on so many levels. And I’m wondering, in your book, you talk a lot about, uh, what is, um,  emotional resilience, but also part about, like, this is a part of us, like, this is part of the human condition, and we can’t just…. Can you go into that a little bit for our listeners?

John: Yeah. I mean, the truth is, we all know this, that nobody likes to suffer. Nobody, and rightly so. Why suffer if you don’t have to? But the problem with that and so of course we all avoid it. But the problem with that is that everyone is going to suffer no matter who you are. And so we know that if you avoid suffering, if you push it away, if you push it back and you don’t work through it and deal with it in positive ways, it can get worse for people. So my book focuses more on taking a new approach to your grief. Whatever it is that you’re challenged by and not necessarily try to create joy around it because nobody likes to suffer. But can you dignify it in different ways? Can you find some of the beauty in it, or even some of the, the, um, the aesthetic in it? And that’s what helps people get through it? Um, I learned that when I was going through a difficult time, if I paired beautiful music because music is my aesthetic for the two of you, you may have different aesthetics, and the aesthetic can be anything.

John: It can be your ability to find joy and to find peace and beauty in everyday things. It could be gardening. It could be your commitment to fitness. It could be almost anything. So for me it’s music. So when I found that I paired sometimes even melancholy music with my sad feelings, my feelings changed. And in some way I was reassociated with them with different things. I was reassociateing my grief, with curiosity, with personal growth, and sometimes with spirituality. You know, for a lot of people, spirituality is the way you know, your aesthetic and even music is the way that maybe sometimes God or the universe or or, you know, the divine speaks to you. So people have a strong connection to that. And I was feeling a little of that, too, although I’m not a very religious person or a very spiritual person, but, um, that’s what I was doing. So I was pairing them together, and that was the way to shift it and to create a different, um, orientation around it.

Alison : And that’s interesting because when I was reading your book, I thought you were a spiritual person, because for me, it touched me on so many spiritual levels. So that’s that’s so interesting. And I think too, what I really loved about your book is a lot of times I would stop, like I looked up the Magritte paintings and I looked up the Statue of Melancholy and and I’ve seen them all, but I’ve never taken your spin on it. So for you, the connection of art and healing– do we call this healing or do we call this allowing? Like, what do we call this?

John: I would call it healing because art helps us to experience our feelings in a safe environment. Art opens up my imagination so I’m more open minded about my grief. Art helps me to legitimize my feelings, to validate them in many ways. And let me just go back a minute. I mean, I’m not saying that I’m not spiritual. I’m just saying that I’ve taken the woo out of the woo woo for me, you know, So I’m like there and I’m still an inquiry and I’m still learning, but I’m not where I would like to be with my spirituality. So, um, but I feel I feel glad that you actually looked up the paintings and the sculpture because, um, those are important factors. And we wanted photos of those arts, of those pieces of art in the book, but it didn’t work out that way. So, um, anyway, I appreciate that. So yeah, I would call it healing. I also call it transformation. You know, what’s what’s emotional resilience? I think emotional resilience is not about strength or grit. I think emotional resilience is about finding ways to take my adversity and convert it into thriving.

Alison : Um.

John: That’s sort of the message of the book, because it’s going to be there no matter what.

Jean : Yeah,

Alison : Right.

Jean : That that’s so true. And that’s so, uh, such a universal experience. We’re going to have loss and pain. No matter what. And, uh. And it is how you deal with it. And I love that you offer so many great tools. Um, how to alchemize our pain. And, um.

John: That’s a good word. I like that alchemize the pain. That’s a good one, Jeannie.

Jean :  It reminds me of magic. You know, like, like the magic. And you’re transforming it. And so, John, when you when you sit with someone, someone comes in and has had, a significant loss, let’s say a person has, has passed away. You know, do you, um, do you just allow them to talk about the past, which I said, I love your chapter on nostalgia. Mhm. That you allow that because in my experience it was told stop thinking about the past so much, And so can you talk about that for our listeners?

John: Yeah. Our culture, our culture is very different than other cultures. We seem to be the, you know, be strong and move on culture. Yeah. You know, smile and the smile. You know, smiling. The world smiles with you and cry and you cry alone type of thing.  um, and why that is, I’m not sure, but I guess we’re so individualistic and we always want to appear strong and stoic. And I think that gets in the way of us healing ourselves. So when somebody does come into my office and they’re they’re grieving, I do want them to educate me on how much they miss this person or how much the loss has affected them. That does involve going back and telling stories that involves nostalgia. It involves daydreaming about it. So I do the opposite of that. Yeah, I don’t say, let’s not talk about it. And even if they say I feel really uncomfortable about talking about this particular thing right now, I do give them space and I don’t force them, but I do try to revisit that. I also ask them what their aesthetics are. You know what has worked in the past that gives you joy. And most of the time, because of the loss, they have stopped accessing that aesthetic, which naturally, so, um, means that, you know, they’ve been in so much pain that they’re afraid to go to that, or at least they don’t want to feel guilty that maybe it’s too soon to do that. So I still say access the aesthetics and try to pair that together with the grieving thoughts. It works pretty magically.

Alison : If there’s a resistance. My father died when I was young, and I didn’t want to look at his picture for years. It just it just felt like a knife in me. So then would your recommendation have been to me to do it, or do I trust in my own sort of, you know, repelling idea a bit like what would what would you have suggested at that point?

John: Well, because I’m very process oriented as a therapist, I’m not results oriented. I’m not impatient. I don’t rush people into doing anything. I would certainly give you the time to think about it, and maybe we would approach it in some different way. But and maybe you would never look at the photo again. But there are other ways to remember. Um, I lost a loved one without the photo, but in my heart, I know that there could be such a transformation around that photo that instead of it being something to be afraid of, it could really be something that you hold in high regard, not just the photo, but how you feel about it. You know, I think that’s the important thing about remembering about your grief is that if you can have it appeal to your highest nature, if you can give it that kind of dignity and respect, um, it changes from something that you need to avoid to something that’s actually quite beautiful. There’s actually splendour in the suffering as well too. It’s kind of like when you hear a really sad song, unless you don’t like the song, but if you like the song, it makes you a little bit sad, but in some ways it also makes you happy and it makes you more connected to people. It makes you understand things a little bit better. Maybe it connects you more to the divine and the spiritual. So nothing wrong with feeling that I think that people are afraid of how they feel in remembering somebody. And of course, that makes a lot of sense.

Jean : Right? It reminds me of the preciousness of life. You know that with your father passing. Uh, John, I read you had a sibling that passed when you were younger. I did as well. My husband. Um, it. I think grief drives home this world is temporary. Everything’s precious this time, right now, talking with you, John. Sitting with Allison. This will never happen again. The way this is playing out, and there’s such beauty in that.

Alison : Yeah.

John: Yeah. And maybe, maybe that’s how we learn. Maybe that’s how we maturate. That’s maybe how we, maybe it’s a rite of passage that once these things happen to us and happens to everybody, yeah, we take life more seriously. We live it more to the hilt. We we appreciate more moments. I think it increases the sensitivity of the heart. It makes us feel closer to others. It makes us feel more compassionate to others. But it’s tricky because, as we just discussed about how society is, we can easily be compassionate with others, but we may not be compassionate with ourselves. Yeah. That’s why one of the exercises in there that I love is the one where I ask people to write themselves a sympathy card.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : Your practices are great.  That one in particular.

John: Yeah. So without offering solutions. Without offering answers. It’s not about answers. It’s just giving yourself, which maybe you’re having a hard time doing all of the respect, the kindness, the time, the compassion to talk about how much this loss has affected you and how much you miss this person or this thing that you’re grieving. It’s a really powerful exercise. People always balk at it at first, but once they write it and I have them read it out to me and we read it several times, you know, it starts to sink in that, you know what? I deserve as much compassion about this as anybody else.

Jean : Hmm.

Alison : We interviewed a woman named Doctor Jill Bolte Taylor. Are you familiar with her? And she she she was she was, um, a neuroscientist. And, um, she had a stroke on one side of her brain. And after coming through it and talking about all this, she said that her favorite emotion is grief because it’s the most, um, visceral, based in love and, um, reflects a vulnerability.

John: Oh, that is beautifully said. I hope you write that down for your next book.  Yeah, that was beautifully said.   Yes. I would agree with that. On a personal level, I find grief and sadness to be much more grounding than when I’m anxious about something and spinning about something that hasn’t happened yet. That has too many variables. But the grounding. I know I’ve been through this before. I know if I can get through this sad song, I can get through anything. So it grounds me. But I wanted to mention another thing too that’s important to remember about the book is that there are studies out there called Nano Aesthetics, and these studies are studies that look at how the brain is affected by immersing it in awe and in aesthetics, like things that you love, like music, let’s say, or paintings or anything like that. And what that does is that activates the prefrontal cortex in your brain, which is your higher self? It’s your executive brain. And so when that’s activated, you are more apt to be hopeful about the future. You’re more apt to problem solve. You’re more apt to raise your distress tolerance skills. You’re more apt to be compassionate with other people. So it behooves us to, especially when we are in our darkest moments, it behooves us to try to to again pair and to couple our feelings with things that have  offer us. Because it’s kind of like we’re starting to heal that way.

Alison : Hmm.  Can aesthetics also be considered um, can you also add into that group human connection, or is that a separate thing, do you think?

John: No, absolutely. In fact, I was talking to one of my patients this morning and they said that they’re best aesthetic because they’re they tend to be a lonely person. Uh, they said that their best aesthetic is doing an activity with good conversation, taking a hike, going for a walk, going on the beach and stuff. That is absolutely an aesthetic. The aesthetic is anything that evokes pleasurable feelings in you. Whatever that is, could be a hobby, it could be stamp collecting, whatever that is.

Jean : Right,. John, do you notice a difference in a male, a strong alpha personality versus a feminine more, um, whatever. The opposite of alpha….like like how men move through their grief versus women.

John: Well, it’s going to sound biased for me to say this, um, but, and I don’t like to speak in generalities, but statistics show, research shows. And I’ve seen this, too, that women pass through it a little bit better, a little more easily because it’s a little more accepted. And maybe that’s changing now. But I think that women generally, over the years, have had a little more permission to be vulnerable and to be sad or men assume that they need to be stoic. And I think there’s a little more shame, a little more stigma for them. So perhaps it’s much harder for them to go through it, right? Um, but I think that everybody feels the same kind of pain. I think it’s more about how much you express it and how comfortable you are expressing it. So. Good question Jeanie, i really do feel that men have a harder time with it, but things are changing.

Alison : Yeah,

Jean : I agree with you. I think men nowadays are way more communicative and coming into their heart, you know, and, um, so I just wanted to get your point of view on that and something that I remembered from a class I took a long time ago was, and you write about this in your book is about saying things to yourself like avoid…, don’t always use the absolute. Like, I’ll never get married again. I’ll never be happy again. Can you talk about.

John: Yes. I like that. I’m glad you brought that up. Yeah. I try to steer myself as well as my patients and clients away from absolutes. Like, never, always should and shouldn’t. Um, because they, if you really think about it, that’s kind of a distortion. It’s an irrational statement to say forever about anything. Um, because we just don’t know. So, um, people easily and myself included, go into what I call emotional reasoning. When we are grieving, we start to think that I’m always going to feel this way, or life is always going to feel this lonely and this dull, or I’m always going to feel this pain. And that is simply, we know that that’s not true. But when you’re in it, in the moment, I try to help people respect that that’s the place that they’re in in that moment. But I will point out when they use absolutes around that, because that could make us feel worse. So we just don’t know what’s going to happen. But it’s pretty visceral in the moment. As both of you, I’m sure, have experienced. So no absolutes. Yeah.

Alison : No absolutes. None. Never.  hahah

John: Well, Instead of saying, you know, I should have gone to the gym today instead of going straight home after work, I asked them to replace it with prefer. Like, i would have preferred to have gone to the gym, but I didn’t and I went home. So should and shouldn’t has a little bit of guilt and never and always is just too much finality.

Alison : Right. And the other thing that we were just talking about that I loved and I underlined it a million times, is like the difference between I’m a failure or I just recognized or realized I had a thought saying that I’m a failure. And that is like, that just makes you go….

John: Yes, well well said. Yeah. That creates separation from me having the awareness that I’m having a thought that I’m never going to be the same because my spouse died or my best friend died. You know, I’m saying, oh, John, there goes John again. I’m having that same thought again. So yeah, it’s a great way to to externalize and separate. So I’m glad you pointed that out.

Alison : Yeah. The reframing is wonderful. You do it a couple of times and like that’s why I like my books a wreck because I’m like, I have to remember this. And you also use the word dignity a lot. Can you tell us your personal idea or definition of what dignity is?

John: To me, dignity is, as I said before, holding something in high regard. Dignity is if I feel dignified or I’m giving myself dignity, I am being compassionate with myself. I’m feeling the totality of being human, which means all feelings, good and bad, negative and positive. Dignity is about respect. It’s about giving yourself, you know, the benefit of the doubt, cutting yourself some slack. And if we can do that with our grief, um, you know, we just live a fuller life. We won’t be so afraid of things in the future. Maybe we’ll take more risks. Imagine if you could live your life, um, moving forward from this day on, having the same respect, the same confidence, the same faith in some of the sorrowful as you do with happier times in your life. You know?

Alison : What do you mean by that?

John: Well, I might take more risks. I might not be so afraid to make mistakes. I might not be so afraid of my feelings. You know, we have a lot of confidence in being happy. It makes us feel good. So, yeah, I’d love to be happy, but we we have an aversion to feeling sad. But what if you had faith in the fact that feeling sad isn’t that bad? It’s okay. Maybe I’m giving myself dignity. Maybe I’m being more spiritual when I do that. So, you know, again, giving myself that respect, I think, um, and and connecting it with my aesthetic signifies, glorifies, exalts. You know, if I’m going to feel it, I’m going to make it something great.

Alison : Mm, i love that.

Jean : You’re so embracing of all the human feelings and most conditions. Yeah. It’s your book is really a love letter to yourself.

Alison : And I thought it was going to be sad. Yeah. I thought when I read it I’m like, oh man, do I want to read about…. You know, like, I feel kind of, and it’s honestly to anyone that is that that wants to get it… It’s not sad at all.

Jean : It’s very inspiring,

Alison : Very hopeful.

John: Thank you, thank you. I Jeanie I love that you just said that. It’s kind of like a love letter to oneself and you know you, both of you are probably just like me, and most people are, but I have a hard time sometimes giving myself that kind of love, affection, respect. And I haven’t always been this kind to myself around my feelings. So if it’s a love letter to me, then I hope that the book, when people read it, that they can learn to be kind to themselves about that because there’s so many benefits to that.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : It’s great that you said that.

Jean : Well, I you know, when I, I feel really good reading your book and it brought some tears up to some things that I revisited.

John: Would you feel comfortable saying.

Jean : Yes, I will.  I and you can talk about I don’t know where in your book, but I remember looking back, I think it was in the nostalgia part and feeling… Wow, i wish I didn’t take Alex for granted in him being able to fix everything in our house. I’m going to get emotional. Yeah, because he was so great at taking care of the house. I mean, he he had his career as a game show host, but he also was amazing at fixing things around the house. And I got really spoiled. And now I live on my own and I things go wrong and I’m like, oh my God. Allison, do you know a plumber?  And and I see in the past how I would beat myself up like, oh, why did you take him for granted? And then, you know, your book kind of softened that for me.

John: So thank you for telling me that. And I appreciate you being vulnerable on the podcast. Um, yeah. That’s really, that’s a nice process that you’re going through. I think it’s going to continue to evolve, but that does sound like what people say to me when they have some regrets or some, um, little mental adversity about the past that some of those grievances with ourselves can turn into gratitude later on. Can be transformed into something different, something that I can appreciate much more. So I hope that continues to grow for you that way. Thank you for sharing that.

Jean : Yeah.  Thank you. And John, while we’re talking about that, can you talk about the myth of closure, which was another great chapter?

John: Yeah. I mean, it’s such a funny thing. Closure has so many meanings to it. Um, people talk about closure in their own way, and I think that closure is not the right word. I think maybe people call closure when they start to feel better about something that they’ve been sad about for a long time, but I personally don’t think that there’s ever closure. I think that we always carry the wound with us. We always have the melancholy with us, and that we need that to learn how to live better. We need that to be able to treat others better. We need, as you both mentioned before, we need that to help us to appreciate life a little bit more. And um, so again, it’s not it’s not a word that I use. I never mentioned the word closure, but everybody else does. And everybody looks at closure as a destination. And I really don’t think that after a loss you’re going to reach something. I think you’re always going to be evolving and changing around it.

Alison : I really like that. Um, because you don’t think of closure for happiness?

John: No,

Alison : I need closure. I need closure in this joy. I really got to get through. And I thought to myself, you’ve totally in the book, uh, made me rethink the judgment that I put on some emotions.

John: Yeah, right. You can close a deal. You can sign on the dotted line and buy a house. But, you know, we are human beings. Um, we work a little bit differently, and we all process oriented. It takes time. We have to traverse. So it’s never about, you know, it’s time to move on. It’s about moving through. What’s the quality of my moving through? Um, I’m going to move through it better if I can dignify my pain. That’s why I always tell people, you know, one of the best things you can do for yourself, the highest form of self-care is to find ways to give yourself goosebumps, to find ways to give yourself uplifting chills as often as possible. And that goes through your aesthetics. Or it could also be through a memory, Jean,  that you were talking about. It can be looking at good times,  i’m sorry, I mean thinking about good times and looking at fun photos. All of that stuff is important. So the chills, as I mentioned before with the nano aesthetics are very important for your well-being. It’s like food for your brain.

Alison : And for you it’s music, classical music?

John: That’s one of them. I have many aesthetics, you know, I like helping people. I like good conversation, like we’re having right now. Time stops for me, and I’m just, you know, um, sharing this wonderful moment with the three of you, with the two of you. Um, so I have many. But music, for some reason, ever since I was a little kid, has always affected me that way. Not all music, certain music. I don’t work with certain genres, but, um, for most of them, I can find something beautiful in that.

Alison : Yeah, I, I I’m a big classical music music listener. I don’t know much about it, but I have it in my car or in my home all the time. And so when I played your, um, Beethoven fifth Concerto, I think it is right?

John: Yes.

Alison : Wow. I’ve heard that so many times. And it really does bring me, um, and I didn’t know even that’s what it was… But I love that. And I’ve heard it so, so many times. So that’s a great, a great thing in the book to keep having us learn.

John: Right, exactly… and remember, your aesthetic might be different than somebody else’s. So it’s it’s always being at cause, not at effect. I’m always taking the action to do that. I don’t believe that happiness or even being able to find beauty in my grief, it doesn’t knock on the door. I have to create it each day because for the most part, grief if it comes out and manifests as depression, it’s always telling you, stay in bed. Don’t talk to anybody. Don’t bother with it. What’s the point? You’re never going to get better. And those are real thoughts and real feelings. And we can’t just snap our fingers and make that go away. So I try to, you know, introduce being at cause and doing things like that. So if that piece works for you I would continue doing it and see what happens.

Alison : Yeah.  And I, I like when you talk about inch by inch, you did it with the person with OCD. And I thought, well, there’s a perfect thing-  if I don’t have to go and run a marathon. I can walk around my block.

John: Yes.

Alison : You know, “Inch by inch” do you know?

John:  What’s the old saying? “Inch by inch is a cinch, and mile by mile is a trial.” Something like.

Jean :  that’s a great one.

Alison : That’s great. Yeah. That’s excellent.

Jean : Yeah. And I think you also say John, i’m totally not going to say it as you wrote it, but but that conscious creation is what is really so, so fabulous about being human. You know that we can feel a little low, i feel like I don’t want to go to that meeting today, and then you can,  you have your bag of tools to– i’m going to walk in nature. I’ll listen to music. You know, you’re consciously raising your vibration.

John: That’s right. And continuing to…. Yes, raising your vibration and also cutting yourself some slack and remembering that I’m feeling sad now, but nothing’s wrong. You know?  Everything is fine. This is so part of life that I have to go through. And the more respect I give it, the better I’m going to feel. So the more I dignify it in the process, the more I reduce it. But I like that. Raising your vibration. Opening up your awareness. Um, and again, I think that accessing the aesthetic, especially in your darkest moments, opens up this portal of inspiration that starts to create a conversion, starts to create a transformation in that.

Alison : At the end of the chapters, you have these pages that allow us to really take a deep dive into ourselves. What are some of your favorites? Like, what do you do… You personally?

John: I like the first one, which is if people are really in a dark place, I will say the next time, tomorrow, tonight, whenever, the next time you hear a song that you love, whether it’s the words or the chords or whatever, I want you to write down five adjectives as to why you like that song, what it’s about, what does it it conjure up from the past? The same thing with a sunset or a painting or something that you’ve been doing. An activity that you love. In other words, document why you’re feeling either inspired or slightly happier. Or maybe it’s even making you a little sadder, but anything that stimulates emotion to log it in. So I think in that first chapter I have,  do that with a movie, a passage in a book, a song and a place in nature. So those four.  If people are thinking about that during the week, it’s not a magic pill. It’s not going to like make you feel better instantly. But you’re starting to introduce a different way of thinking, a different way of relating to the world and finding those beautiful things there because they are there. But we have to do we have to be deliberate and create intention to do that.

Alison : It’s the documenting that I think is so crucial and something so interesting  like, I think that’s great. Were you going to say something?

Jean : No, it’s just as you’re talking… It just reminds me how important it is to to choose what we focus on.

Alison : Mhm.

Jean : And at the same time allow, allow that that sadness and the, you know, so it’s, you know, you don’t want a spiritual bypass your, your feelings like oh I feel sad, i’m not going to I’m going to resist it, and you know, get myself so busy that I’m not dealing with my feelings.

John: Right. No. Right. That would be unhealthy distraction. That would be, um, pushing it or sweeping it under the carpet. Right. We’re not talking about that.

Jean : Exactly.

John: Exactly. So good point to that.

Jean : Substances and, you know alcohol.

John: That’s right. You know how a lot of people say, I might say to somebody, wow, You’ve really stood up to this.  You’ve been, um, tough, you’ve been strong, whatever, i might say that to somebody. And a lot of people say, well, I had no choice. And I think, you know, you do have a choice. Some people don’t do what the three of us are talking about. Some people do turn to drugs and alcohol. Some people give up. Some people detach from their routines and their responsibilities and and stop doing, you know, the things that we’re talking about looking for beauty, looking for, um, um, support from others and reaching out. So we do have a choice and not everybody does that. And I, I hope that there aren’t too many that don’t. But, um, you know, I do my best to try to reach out to those people as much as I can, because not everybody starts out in therapy with a lot of hopefulness. Sometimes they say, well, somebody told me that I should do therapy, or I’m feeling so awful that I couldn’t feel any worse. So let’s talk. So I get all kinds of stuff, but most of the time, um, people start to, you know, again, transfer, um, those feelings to a different place. And usually it’s a better place.

Alison : Your friends must love you…honestly…

John: Oh, i hope so.

Alison : Beaucause like, you’re just such a, you’re very, um…. I would love to hang out with you because there are some times, like, we’re with our friends, and what’s great about our friends is that sometimes we’ll, like, just allow, just allow and talk through. And you must be the same way, like with your pals. Just be like, how are you doing? And not try to skirt around it, which I think is just such what we so need right now.

John: Well said. Yeah, I’m as curious with them as I try to be with myself, you know? What is it about? Why does that song make me feel wistful? What is it about wistful or sad or happy or nostalgic? And then when I really look into that much, much more closely, I learned more about myself. I remember things that maybe I forgot or that I was afraid to remember. So what I always tell people is, if you’re afraid of a photo or you’re afraid of something, that to me indicates that you really need to talk about it and in a safe place. And it may not be today, it may be in the future, but it would be a good thing to do that. You know, I have old videotape of my mom that, um, for years I have kept as a VHS, and I finally transferred it into a file, which I can watch on my computer because you can’t even transfer it on a DVD now because computers don’t have it. So times have changed, and it’s been hard for me to to not watch it over the years. Um, but in other ways, I felt like I didn’t want to because that was a way for me to feel safe. So I did watch it and it was a little bit sad in the beginning, but I don’t feel that same kind of initial fear when I watch it now.

Jean : In your book, you attribute to her that she was the kindest person you knew.

John: She was.

Jean : Lovely.

John: She was. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, she and my father passed 21 years ago, and it’s been a really long time. But there are some days when it feels like it was six months ago.

Jean : Yes.

John: You know, especially when I wake up in the morning and I’ve had a couple of dreams and I feel a little bit anxious. And sometimes in the morning my defenses are down. Um, but yeah, I think the good qualities emotionally that I got from from my parents came from my mom. And I think the good qualities of, of finding my aesthetics came from my father because he, you know, we traveled the world, we lived in Europe. He took us to ruins and museums and was always playing us music and forced us to learn these things. So I got a good balance from both of them.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : You did.

Alison : I think that’s great. And I think that what you just said about, um, feeling like sometimes the morning, you feel like you’re a little bit anxious. I think that’s so interesting because I think a lot of people have that sort of sense of like, maybe you’re being open or vulnerable and, you know, and I think it’s wonderful that you, I think that’s wonderful that you share so much and that you are open to letting people peek in a little bit. I really respect that.

John: Thank you. Yeah. So in the morning the stress hormone cortisol is much higher. Again like I said our defenses are down. So, um, I don’t have great mornings. Um, once I get up again, you know, be at cause not the effect. Once I get up, I shower. I look at my notes for the day. Or if I’m writing something new, I read over what I wrote last night. Then it gets… I get some things going and I’m much more grounded. And I kind of, like, balance myself out. But, um. Yeah, that’s when I remember the sad most in the morning. Um, and then I’m not, um, comfortable with it yet. Uh, until I start to move around and I start to remember all the good things in my life. So, um, I try to be as transparent as possible. And Socrates said, you know, “wisdom begins in wonder.” So I’m wondering I’m curious about my grief all the time, as opposed to wanting to run from it.

Alison : Um, curiosity that comes up in a lot of our interviews as being such an important, you know, such an important part of life.

John: It is. I don’t remember who said it, but one of those famous gurus, maybe it was the Dalai Lama, or maybe it was Deepak Chopra, but one of those big cheeses, when they asked when they asked them what their religion was, one of them said, “inquiry, compassion and tolerance.” And what stuck in my head was the inquiry. You know, always wondering, always trying to not necessarily being comfortable with answers because it’s not about answers, it’s about always evolving and growing. So that stuck with me. Now, now I’m going to look it up and see who said that.

Alison :  yes…that’s a great quote.

Jean : I do the same thing, John…and you have so many great quotes in here.

Alison : Yes. Thank you so much for writing this.

Jean : Yeah. We we are so grateful that you are on our team of sharing the good. And this book is certainly very, very good.

John: Thank you. I appreciate you two reading it. By the way, what city are you both in?

Jean : Studio city.

John: Oh, you’re in Los Angeles.

John: All right, well, I’ll take you both up on one day. We have coffee and we continue the conversation.

Alison : Oh, we would love that.

Jean : But before we let you go, we have two questions.

Alison : What do you think insidewink means?

John: I remember, Yeah. Um, so I thought about it for a while, and I think that for a lot of people, it means a lot of different things. And for me, it means different things to-  to me, an inside wink can be a gesture of affection. It can be, um, you know, signifying or signaling warmth to somebody. Um, it could be a shared secret, um, shared knowledge that we all have that we’re having a really nice conversation amongst ourselves. So I see it as something positive.

Alison : Oh, good. Great. That’s perfect. We love that…and –

Jean : Do you prefer cake, pie or ice cream?

John: I will answer that, but I’m curious to know why you ask. But I will say pie. Pie is my favorite.

Jean : Another pie!

Alison : I know person pie. The numbers are going up, John.

John: So tell us why. Tell me why. Why that question? Well, why both questions?

Jean : We love dessert. And we just…

Alison : Period.

Jean : End up scene, end of conversation. We love dessert. And we just thought it would be a really fun way to end the conversation, because it’s so probably not what people ask you.

Alison : And it’s so funny to see people change. Like, we’ll talk about people. We’ll be talking very seriously, and then we’ll say that and they’re like, well.. If I have to choose, and like almost a childlike thing comes out, which is so…

John: So when you said, oh, that’s another pie… Is that the most popular answer or is it cake?

Alison : It’s getting there.

Jean : I think pie is really popular.

Alison : Yeah, I think pie is popular. And pie with ice cream. That’s a big one.  Some people like, want the turducken of all three. Do you know – they really… But it’s so funny, people are so sweet about people talk about their grandmothers. People talk about a pastry shop, you know….

Jean :  a spouce that makes their favorite cake…

Alison : It’s a sweet thing that people just seem to enjoy. And so we just like to see that side of people.

John: That’s good, I like that. That’s a great way to end the podcast.

Jean : Yeah, yeah.

Alison : Well thank you so, so so much. You were just wonderful.

Jean : You are – what a blessing you are.

John: Thank you , Thank you so much for having me, and again, thanks for reading the book. And thank you for, you know, forming your questions so detailed about the book and the exercises and stuff. Made me feel good that it touched you. So it touches me as well I appreciate that.

Jean : Thank you. John.

Alison : Have a beautiful day.

John: You too.

Jean : That was great.

John: He’s excellent, isn’t he?

Jean : Yeah. He was really fun.

Alison : And I felt like a real conversation. I liked when he would say, well, why do you ask this? Or what did you think about that? Or would you be willing to share.

Jean : When? When he asked me. About what? Um. You know what? Something. When I was talking about, um, thinking back on my relationship with Alex and feeling like I took him for granted in certain ways, I was… I got that was like, yeah, uh, that really touched me. And, um, again, his book is so beautiful, and I think he also, well, I know he gives beautiful practices to take take the, uh, the readings deeper into your own life.

Alison : Right. And, and I think everyone I’m going to have, I’m going to keep this book, like, for the kids, because I think it’s just a great book to have…” The magic and the tragic” and I, I, um, I really respect that he wrote this, and I think it’s really interesting he wrote it over Covid. What an interesting time we all lived through. When you think back of Covid, right? Yeah. Like we read collectively as humanities really something and some, some interesting things came out of it for people. And I just really respect him. And I really enjoyed him.

Jean : Yes, me too.

Alison : So we hope. We hope, we hope you got something out of the podcast. And if you would like to- “The Magic In The Tragic” by John Tsilimparis, MFT. is really just, um.

Jean : Wonderful.

Alison : Yeah, yeah, very very good.

Jean : Well written. And, uh, I don’t know, we could go on and on, but we’ll we’ll end it there.

Alison : I’m going to go and get Macaroni and cheese.

Jean : Okay.

Alison : Macaroni and cheese is calling my name. That’s my magic. hahah

Alison : Bye.

Jean : Bye.

Alison: Yeah,

Jean : Checking…

Alison: There it is. There we are. Hi.

Jean : Hi, there.

Alison: How are you doing?

Jean : I’m good. It’s really warm out today.

Alison: Yeah, it’s very, very, very hot.

Jean : Yeah,

Alison: Very, very warm.

Jean : I’m glad you’re in shorts. And I’m in my usual pants.

Alison: Do you wear shorts?

Jean : sometimes I do.

Alison: yeah?

Jean : Sometimes, yeah.. so…

Alison: alright, well we’re in your closet … Show me the shorts.  Um Today we’re going to have a great conversation with the, um, two volunteers from the LA Animal Rescue.

Jean : Yeah. And, you know, when I was doing the background research for our interview, it’s so interesting to me, This is just not about cats and dogs. This is all sorts of animals. Like you could sponsor an iguana or adopt a kangaroo, right? If they had a kangaroo, I didn’t see any though..

Alison: I know they had a pig, a big pig once and  they’re just a very, very kind. So today we’re speaking to Cindy Drummond, who’s also a very excellent actor.

Jean : And that’s how you know, Cindy and how we got this interview. Right?

Alison: Right. And and then another volunteer that’s Cindy’s friend Sarah Dubay, now the head of animal, the LA Animal Rescue I think is too shy to do it, but I kind of.

Jean : does the person have a name?

Alison: Yes, Sue.

Jean : Okay, Sue.

Alison: And I just have to say that, um, I kind of love that they are totally just doing it for the love of animals.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison: They just want to take care of animals.

Alison: So I’m looking forward to this because I’m like one of those people that if there’s, like, a bird on the side of the road, I stop.

Jean : Yeah. I’m. I’m the same. Uh, and I think it’s so great that they are –they don’t turn away any animal.

Alison: Right. But they’re not a wildlife rescue.

Jean : Exactly.

Alison: Which I think is an interesting thing. I think Cindy’s going to talk about that. Like, there are lots of really good wildlife rescues, but, you know,

Jean : This is not them.

Alison: No…Right and I remember one time Brady and I, my son, followed a dog for hours trying to catch it, and we finally got it and brought it to a rescue. And I was like, wow. Like, we were dedicated. And you feel good to help an animal? Yeah. You know?

Jean : It is. They are our fellow companions and gosh, we are so grateful to be with them.

Alison: Yes. So blessed. And. So here’s, um, Cindy

Jean : and Sarah.

Alison: Can you tell us a little bit about, about the LA Animal Rescue? And I guess it started in 2010.

Cindy: Yeah, it’s been around for, yeah, 15 years. And, um, so our director, Sue and her husband Jason run it. And, you know, it’s funny, i was asking her, you know, how did you…. Why did you start doing it? And, um, she volunteered with a lot of other rescues, and then she did transport for rescues. And she did all sorts of things. Spay neuter events and everything and then I think it was really one of those things where she was kind of like, well, I can do this, you know. And, um, and she’s very efficient and very direct and very I mean, she just she is kind of a animal whisperer and so is her husband. Like, I mean, I have seen her, i mean, we have got a million stories…. But I remember there was this one dog that we had, uh, Diego and he was at an animal hospital, and they called her and they were like, we can’t get near him because he was just grrrrrr… And so one of the other volunteers was with her because she said, you want to come with me? I got to pick up this dog. And she said, yeah. So she she goes, can I film it? And she was like, yeah and so she, he’s in the the cage at the animal hospital. Nobody would get near him. They were all scared of him. So there’s film of him just like baring his teeth. His name is Diego. And Sue walks up and she goes, what is this nonsense? And he’s grrrrr and then she goes, alright, I don’t have time for this. And she opens the the cage and everybody’s like oohhhhhh , and she just goes, come on, you’re with me. And then he goes,oh okay.

Alison: Wow.

Cindy: And then he was just like, you know, because, so she just has that thing where she’s like, this is what we’re doing, you know?

Sarah: So even that even at adoption events, it’s so funny because the animals that are staying with her, obviously some of them are with our community of fosters, but the ones that are staying directly with her anywhere she goes, they’re just kind of where is she? Where is she? And following her around. And they’re so happy to leave at the end of the event because they get to go back to Sue’s house. I mean, she really is just incredible in that way.

Cindy: Yeah. And her husband too, you know, they have we have all sorts of animals up at the ranch. And, you know, we have ducks and ducks imprint on people. So all the ducks imprint on her husband. So especially baby ones. So that’s adorable too. Like, we’ll I’ll be talking to her on the phone. You’ll hear quack, quack, quack. And then I’ll be like, what’s going on? And she’ll be like, oh, Jason’s taking the babies in for for their bath, you know, and they. And when you go up to the ranch, like, you’ll, you know, can I use the bathroom? And she’ll go, don’t go in there. There’s a bulldog in there, you know, don’t go in there. There’s ducks in there. Don’t go in there. You know, and then you’re like, is there one that’s for humans? She’s like, no, don’t look around. Just do your thing and come out. And then you’re like, oh, hello, there’s a chicken in here, you know?

Alison: it’s amazing.

Jean : Alison and I were saying, you know, before we jumped on this call together that, um, you’re just not dogs and cats. You are animals.

Cindy: Mhm. Yeah.

Jean : What are some like other animals that that have like… Oh my gosh…. We’re now uh, we’ve got to find a home for…

Sarah: Pigeons.

Cindy: Yep. Oh there’s been some…. She’s kind of becoming the crazy bird lady like we have now. And we’ve expanded like there’s uh, so we she, she has, like, there’s like a duck and chicken house, and it’s, you know, it’s up in Frazier Park, so it snows and everything. So she has videos in the morning. She when it’s snowing, like she opens the door and they literally come out, you know, out to come out in the snow. And sometimes they turn back around like screw it, it’s snowing. And she’s like, no, we’re going out and you know, and there’s a pond. And then we have, we do have some rabbits. Yeah. Um, we have one horse, we had two, we had Lincoln and he passed away, but he was like 40. And then, uh, because we got him when they’re older. So now we have Truman. Yeah. Goats. We have a whole bunch of pigs because we rescued a mom and a dad and a sister wife. And, um, one of the mom was, well, she was pregnant. And so the the shelter called Sue because she knew she liked pigs. And and then they had the babies. And so we still have a lot of them. So we had them from when they were this big. So. Yeah. So cattle

Sarah: The pigs, actually the baby pigs came to a few of our adoption events, which was kind of wild.

Cindy: Yes. Christmas time.

Sarah: Yes. Yeah. Got a lot of action.

Alison: Do people adopt them?

Cindy: Every once in a while… They I mean they she goes through a real like I mean we always do home checks and, um, you know, real thorough on the homes. But yeah, there’s certain people that will adopt pigs or goats or, you know, the horses aren’t, …. You know, some of the animals are just retired, you know, and so that’s why they’re up there. But, um, every once in a while, you know, we had a young goat and a family wanted a goat, you know, and she did the due diligence, and she was like, yeah, okay. So yeah.

Sarah: Yeah, it’s kind of funny because when she rolls up on Sundays to start unloading at the Larchmont event that we’ll do, she’ll have various creatures that are in there. And there were.. I remember when the pigeons were in there and she kind of was like, oh, those are those are pigeons. Just, you know, they’re going to stay in there. And I was like, okay. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Normal.

Cindy: Yeah. She’s very she just she’s just tender hearted towards any need. I remember one time at a we this was before you volunteered. We were at doing a one at a different place and this guy came into the adoption event and he had a, uh, cut off, um, water bottle, like a geyser, big water bottle with one goldfish in it. And he walked in and I thought to myself, oh, you idiot… What, what? And he goes, is Sue here? And I was like, uh, yeah. And then she goes over here and he, you know, takes the. So then we were kind of like, Sue, really? And she goes, goldfish need homes. They couldn’t take care of her, you know. And we were like…. And she was like, yes, I think. And so then when she drove home, we were laughing. She was in the van with all these different animals. And she put the goldfish in between her, you know, legs. And, you know, every time she leaves, it’s like, cue the Benny Hill music, you know, it’s like, there she goes. Yeah, goldfish needs home, too. We’re like, all right..

Alison: Do You get animals just from people abandoning them. Or does someone call you and say there’s a dog running around on the street? Or, like, where do you get the Animals.

Sarah: Yeah, it could be anything from someone calling to say there’s a dog running on the street. We also partner with another rescue, Hope for Paws, which will a lot of times be the ones who are going and getting that animal from wherever, you know, it’s been sighted. And so they’re wonderful. And then sometimes it’s also Hope for Paws to shelter homes sometimes. Right?

Cindy: Uh, mostly they mostly do like the, the rescues from, you know, if some like, we just got a family of mom and dad, um, and they had been going into town and getting food and then going away and then, fine, and they come back and nobody could catch them. And then it turned out that they were taking food back to a cave where they had eight puppies. You know. So, yeah. And,  so Hope for Paws goes out and it’s you should look, they’re amazing, they go up and set up a perimeter and everything, and they rescue. And then we find them homes. Other rescues too. But mostly I don’t think they do a lot of shelter pulls every once in a while, but so will ours are, you know, it’s things we get a lot from Hope for paws. And then sometimes, I mean, she gets so many emails all day long. People, for whatever reason, have to surrender their animal. Some of them are shelter pulls. Shelters will call us. I just picked up a duck on Sunday. A shelter called us and said, It’s Father’s Day and we have what we think is a father duck with no family. And he’s lonely. And Sue was like, Will you go get him? I’m like, sure.

Cindy: So went and got him. And so yeah, it’s various, you know, a lot of times it’s uh, sometimes it’ll be, uh, a senior that, uh, can’t take care of the animal anymore, went into assisted living and the family can’t. So a million different stories.

Alison: And so what happens then? So you get some animal, and then what do you have, like a group of people. Like what happens. How what’s the system?

Cindy: Well, first they go right to the vet. Yeah. Make sure that they’re okay. They get seen by a vet, and then we. We’re foster. So we’re all volunteer based, and we’re foster based. And so then she’ll, if they don’t go to the ranch with her, um, she’ll see which foster can, you know, take them on and, um, and it’s good because then the foster gets to know the animals. So when people are interested in adopting, they can tell them, hey, he’s good with cats. Hey. He’s afraid of crows. He likes this. He likes that, you know? And so that’s basically. But, you know, some of them need a lot of medical. When they first come in, they we get we get a lot of medical cases too.

Sarah: Yeah for sure.

Jean : Does the LA animal rescue pay for the for the medical?

Cindy: Yeah. So it’s like we’re always in the hole because it’s all based on donations and adoption fees and everything. So yeah we so we have a particular vet that we use, um, uh, in the Valley. That’s fantastic. Sherman Oaks and that Doctor Lockhart. Shout out to Doctor lockhart

Sarah: He’s Amazing.

Cindy: And, uh, he’s another one that, like, you can bring him one that you’re like, oh, he’s kind of nippy. And he’ll be like, come on, I got other patients. And then you’re like, oh. And, um, and then sometimes we have certain vets that are if we have ones that need, you know, expertise or specialty shows I ones heart ones. Yeah. You know, but yeah, we pay for all of it. And um, but her big thing that she wanted me to mention too is that, um, now we’ve been doing these spay neuter events, so spay neuter is, like, really the big source. Like, if you can spay and neuter the pets, that’s the big source of the over pet population and pets getting abandoned. So we whenever we can raise the money, we are partnered with, um, it’s the spay mobile and the mobile vet that comes and spays all these animals. And so when we it’s like, you know, I don’t know, 2500 – 2700 so when we can raise the money for that, then people come and sign up and come and get their animal spayed or neutered for free. Yeah. And it’s wonderful because it’s people that can’t do it on their own or it’s, you know, and um, yeah. So that’s that’s a big thing we do too.

Jean : That’s so important to get your pet spayed or neutered. And yeah, I, I remember Bob Barker, who hosted the, um, Price is Right,  at the end of his signing off, he’d say, okay, I’m Bob Barker, and don’t forget to get your pet.

Cindy: Spayed or neutered.  Yeah, it’s true.

Jean : It’s actually,  I didn’t even know what that meant when I was little. And I heard him say that. And, uh, and then as I got older, I was like, oh, look at him be such an advocate for animals. And I didn’t know that about Bob Barker. But, um, yeah. So I see on your website also that being spayed and neutered, that’s really important.

Cindy: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, if people don’t understand, it’s not even just that, um, that for, for, you know, over pet population and making sure animals don’t get abandoned and stuff. It’s medically good for them. You know, it prevents testicular cancer in male dogs. In female dogs it prevents mammary glands, you know, um, breast cancer. And so it’s it’s actually good for the animal to get spayed or neutered. And so that’s another reason we tell people, you know, sometimes if they have a dog that’s not young, they’re like, well, it never goes outside. He doesn’t need it. Well I mean, cut to six months later, they’re like, we have puppies. Yeah. Um, but you know, we tell them, hey, it’s actually, you know, good for them. Yeah.

Sarah: And all of the dogs to the rescue. Come. Chipped, vaxed and fixed. So they all come fixed.

Cindy:  Yeah. We don’t release them unless they’ve got all that. Yeah.

Alison: And do you… So you’re fostering a dog or a cat or something? How do you not fall in love with all of them?

Sarah: That’s always tough. Um, but I think the thing about fostering that’s so rewarding is that you help an animal socialize and get ready for their forever home. And it really is such a service to be able to do that over and over again versus I’m just going to keep this animal and that’s it. You know, it’s tough for sure. Um, I don’t know if either of you are familiar with a creator on TikTok called Isabel Klee  and the Story of Tiki. That has just been very viral. So she’s a foster based out of, um, New York, and she’s got a TikTok that thousands and hundreds of thousands of views and she’s fostered probably at this point around 40 dogs. And for some reason, the most recent dog that she fostered, Tiki, who came from a criminal case, just had absolutely no will to really live by the time she got him. And, um, she, you know, was talking his entire journey, talking about day by day, and the entire world kind of fell in love with him and fell in love with the story. And it’s not the first time that people have fallen in love with a dog that she was fostering and would comment things like, you have to keep him. And that’s it’s really not the point of fostering, right? It’s it’s really being able to socialize an animal, get an animal ready for their forever home and give them so much love so that they’re ready for that. And so by keeping herself open to continue to foster, she allows herself to do that over and over and over again versus I’m going to keep this dog. And now I’m kind of done fostering for a little bit. So it’s challenging, but it’s worth it. It’s one of those things that really pays off.

Cindy: Yeah. And it’s one of those things. I mean, because I know with our volunteers, almost every single foster I think has it’s called foster fail when you keep them. And but they still, you know, but then they do try to then keep fostering. But but even Sue will foster fail like, even Sue you know, she has an affinity for a certain for certain bulldogs. We’ll just say…We don’t have to keep it a secret.

Cindy: She and her husband love a bulldog, and and and the more messed up that dog is, the better. You know, if they’re missing an eye and they’ve had ten litters and they limp and they make a sound, a lot of them sound like a walrus, you know? And we know, like, someone reached out to me recently with a video of Dolly.

Sarah: Yeah, love Dolly,

Cindy: and this Really overweight bulldog that somebody had over bred and over bred and she, and she was like, you know.

Sarah: She sounds like a raptor, actually,  from Jurassic Park.

Cindy: Yeah. And her full name is Dolley Madison. Just to be clear. Yeah. Which I love.

Sarah: Yes. Yeah. When she makes the sound at adoption events, I mean, it draws a crowd. Everybody’s like, what is going on? Yeah. And have they escaped? You know, but it was one of those things where she gets so many requests and we get requests. People contact us. And someone, you know said to me, oh, somebody found this dog, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, well, I’ll ask her. You know, we’re we’re kind of at capacity right now. And I was like, do you have a picture, a video. And she sends me a video. This fat bulldog wagging her butt, making that sound, and I was like, she’s gonna… Hold on one second, you know? And then I sent it to her, and she was like, um, all right, can they meet me at the Sherman Oaks tomorrow? You know. Yeah. I mean, but we she always says make every attempt to find the owner. You know, we always have the people make every attempt to find the owner, and it’s their chip and all that stuff. But, Dolly, so Dolly’s been coming to adoption events. But we noticed recently I was like, oh, I haven’t seen Dolly, you know? And she was like, well, you know, we’re deciding, you know, we’re like a fat bulldog that’s got some problems. She’s in.

Cindy: She’s in the club.

Sarah: Yeah. Sue foster fails regularly, but she also I think part of, you know, we call the farm where she lives, like rehab or, you know, boot camp for the dogs, too, because she really does sort of they become part of the general population. So they kind of get in line. They become part of a pack. It socializes them in a different way, which is really helpful.

Cindy: Yeah. She has certain dogs up there that that are her like she had one for a long time. A big, huge, huge Cane Corso, named Martha. And, uh, she was Sue’s like, right hand, you know, ranch hand. Like they would she, they have like a little one of those things. She rides it around and she would be with her, and then she would teach the other dogs. And she recently lost her. And it was very hard, you know, but, um, yeah, they she’s got teachers that, you know, the dogs teach them, teach them and the, the, uh, Martha and Truman, the horse, actually had quite a loving relationship, you know, she would send me videos, Martha would go out into Truman’s corral, and Truman would get all excited and come over and nip at her. And Martha would be like, all right, you know.

Sarah: I love unlikely animal friendships. Yes. Those are my favorite. Yeah.

Jean : I love that book. There’s a book like that.

Sarah: Yes. I had the calendar many years ago.

Jean : Uh, Allison, when when you stepped out for a moment, we were talking about how pets have such an impact on our lives.

Sarah: Yeah, yeah, truly, I was talking about how they’re our greatest teachers. Yeah, obviously, they teach us the the obvious things like patience. Right. Um, I had a bunny rabbit for 11.5 years that passed away at the beginning of last year, Mops and um, I say one of the things she taught me the most was how to think outside of myself. At the time when I got her, I was starting a new relationship, and I was sort of feeling like it was hard for me to integrate another person into my life. My life was all about me, and I was I felt a little selfish. And so I actually got her because I was trying to have an inconvenience in my life that I wouldn’t get upset at. And I, I know that I have if I had all the patients in the world for people like I do with animals, I would be Mother Teresa. I could never be mad at an animal. And so I got her to have some inconvenience and it really did help me. Wow. But then one of the things I was saying to Jean was also, animals teach us so much about, you know, how their temporary lives, the shortness of their lives, teach us to live in the moment and just how precious every moment is. I think that’s one of the biggest things that they teach us. They’re only here for such a short time, and we love them so much and they love so much. And in doing that, it sort of keeps us so present and reminds us that all we have is this moment. Nothing else is promised, and you have to make the most of it. Right?

Alison: And I think, you know, when you have a pet, they don’t care if you look good, if you don’t have a job, if your house is a mess, they just want to be next to you and love you. Yeah, that’s the thing. Like I like I think. Oh, and then you look at, I look at my dogs and they’re like, I don’t, I don’t care.

Sarah: Yeah, yeah. That unconditional love.

Alison: It’s truly amazing. So during Covid did you guys get like, what was that like? I feel like after Covid people were like, oh I really can’t take it. Like, what was that weird? All of that?

Cindy: Yeah. Well, at first we, uh, so we we couldn’t do adoption events or anything, but people, you know, were getting animals during Covid because then they were home and they wanted the companionship and all that stuff. So in the beginning, we had a lot of adoptions. You know, I mean, you can see where this is going, but a lot of adoptions and she did home checks and all that, all masked up and everything. And we were still pulling animals from shelters that needed help and everything. But then when Covid, uh, when people started being able to go out again, people went back to work. We got a lot of animals. I don’t think we got any of ours returned, but we got a lot of people saying, well, I don’t have time for them now. Yeah. And that was really sad. And the shelters too, the shelters. So we were trying to help the shelters and it was happening to us too. We were getting a lot of people saying, oh, and now I got to go back to work and I can’t, I can’t, I can’t take care of them anymore.

Alison: Yeah, what’s the difference between you guys and the shelter,  and the difference between you guys and, like, a wildlife place that you call?

Sarah: I mean, with us, there’s no potential of termination, right? Like, they can stay with us forever. It doesn’t matter. Versus a shelter who has to deal with overcrowding issues. And that’s just unfortunately, the nature of a lot of shelters. It’s not their fault. You know, they don’t have a choice. So I would say that’s probably the biggest difference. And then in a way we kind of rehabilitate them. So we’re a little like a wildlife center, right. We rehabilitate them, get them ready to be out in the world again.

Cindy: And yeah, yeah. She always says rescue, rehab, rehome. So like the other difference too is that shelters are run by the city. So they they have funds, you know, the city funds them. They have a budget, they have money. And, um, we’re like I said, we’re just all donation and adoption fee funded. We’re, you know, and, um, and then at the shelter, yeah, they because they’re overcrowded, they, they have to, you know, uh, euthanize and, uh, we never do that… with us, you know, until they find a home or until they, you know, uh, if for some of them just. Yeah, just, um, for whatever reason, can’t be adopted. So they’ll just be with us until they. Yeah. And, um, but, yeah, it’s rescue, rehab and rehome. so the difference to like some people say, um, with, uh, what a rescue, like if I’m, if I’m going to adopt a dog, like, what would be the benefit of going through a rescue as opposed to the shelter? And we’re always like, hey, we just want the dog to go to home. So if you find the dog you want, we love it if you rescue it from the shelter.  But they don’t know as much about them because they’re not there as long. And they, like Sarah was saying, like, our dogs are all in with fosters and so we know them. So we’re going to be able to tell you what their habits are, what they like, what they don’t like. You know, are they energetic? Are they not? You know, if somebody’s like, I like to hike or not, you know, it’s we’re going to be like, well, don’t pick the bull dog. Yeah. Not Dolley Madison, you know, and if somebody else is like, I don’t, I don’t, you know, like to go outside. We’re like, that one just wants to lay on the couch like, bulldogs are funny because people do say to us all the time, I need a yard. And we’re like, oh no, you don’t. You need a couch. And so, um, so that’s one of the differences too, is that I would say it’s that they’re funded by the city and that the other difference is what Sarah said, that we, you know, they are with us forever. You know.

Jean : And how do you fundraise? Do you…?

Cindy: We’re terrible at it.

Sarah: We’re not the best. I mean, we’ve got a little donation box set up at our events. And, you know, Sue’s very active on the LA Animal Rescue Instagram and, you know, putting out. She does a thing called $5 Fridays. It’s you know, that’s such a low stakes amount to think about like $5. Anyone has $5 to donate for the most part. And if everyone donated $5, my God, you know, we’d be. We wouldn’t need to get any more donations. But, um, you know, stuff through that. But we could be better at it.

Cindy: We could be better.  It’s so funny because we’re always trying to, you know, um, we used to, way before. I remember us having my my sister was a fundraiser, and so my sister was like, well, this is ridiculous. There are certain things you can do. And so she had a meeting and told us all, you know, and you can get grants and you can do this, and who’d like to do that? And we were all like, oh, I just, I just want to…. I was like, I just want to transport ducks and clean up poop. I don’t want to, you know…. And so we’re just yeah, we’re miserable at it. But we do have we, we have um, we do have a good following and we have certain people that donate all the time and, you know, so that’s great and everything. But yeah, we’re always like, what should we we used to do, uh, drag queen bingo. We did that a few times.

Alison: We love that. We’ve done that.

Cindy:  We used to do it and, uh, but we haven’t, because then you got to find the stuff to auction off, and, um, I, I don’t know, it just kind of fell away.

Sarah: We should to that again.

Cindy: Yeah, that would be fun. You tell her.

Sarah: I’ll tell her.

Jean : Okay, so if you’re if you don’t if you’re someone that that wants to help, uh, but doesn’t have extra funds, how else can someone help your organization?

Sarah: Yeah, uh, you can volunteer. Of course…

Jean : Would that be going up to the farm or would that be…

Sarah: You could volunteer at one of our events. So we do an event every Sunday at in Larchmont Village in the Wail wagger’s parking lot. We also have been going out to Mixed Fine Things, a store out in Agoura Hills one Saturday a month. Um, and then also, if you want to foster an animal, um, that’s always super helpful. And the only thing there is that if you’re fostering an animal, you would definitely need to be at least bringing them to the event so that they could meet potential, you know, new families for them. But yeah, those are a couple of ways. If they can’t donate their funds, their time is also super valuable.

Cindy: Yeah. And, um, share, you know, post and share. Share our information about the spayed & neuter. Yeah. Um, but yeah, that’s that’s basically it. Share our stuff. Volunteer.

Sarah: Yeah. I always say on Sundays when people are taking pictures of the dogs, especially if they’re younger. I’m always like, tag us. Yeah, I got the post in case someone sees that dog and is like, that’s a really cute dog. Well, now you know where you can reach out to.

Cindy: Yeah. And by the way, it’s a ranch. It’s not a farm. It’s funny, everybody always says farm.

Sarah: Oh Yeah, I call it a farm.

Cindy: And we all laughed. We laugh when people say farm because we’re like, yes, well, we’ve got to harvest the corn now and then…

Sarah: Yeah, because we’re not farming anything out there.

Cindy: Yeah. It’s a ranch. It’s a dude ranch. Yeah, but it’s just,  yeah, anyway, so.

Jean : I like  that actually heard Cindy with a little twang.

Cindy: It’s actually a ranch. Yeah, yeah, we have a horse area and a dog. You know, it’s like we have all these different, um, but yeah, it’s way, way up, but we don’t hold events there or have people go because the thing is, like, people then will dump their animals. Yeah. Um, like shelters. You know how they’ll just tie them up out front. So we’ve had a few fosters who, when the neighbor find neighbors, neighborhood finds out, then they’ll just start throwing dogs over the fence, you know? And, um, you know, we help them, but it’s like we can’t, you know, have an influx like that.

Alison: So you think that, uh, people…. Specific people in specific dogs are meant for each other? And have you ever seen a dog pick a person?

Sarah: Oh, yes.

Cindy: Yep.

Sarah: For sure. I’m trying to think of a specific example of a dog picking a person. But I do know. So I had an experience recently, um, late last year where, um, you know, I’ve had a dream of Casey, my dog, having a dog sibling, and obviously I fostered Billy before he belongs to her. Um, and Casey was mixed with Billy. He was sort of not super happy about it. But then a dog came across our rescue. A tiny little, um, Chihuahua. Um. And she was a Chihuahua, jack Russell, so they call them like Jack cheese. And she was just precious. Her name was Joni. And the second I saw her, I imprinted on her like the ducks imprint on Jason. I was like this, I need her. And it’s so funny because she had come to us through sort of a medical event of her owner. And, um, I met her at the, you know, once a month event in Agoura Hills, and she was going to be going home with one of our other fosters who was ready to take her and was sort of like, yeah, I’m going to have her for this week. I couldn’t get her out of my head. And I just kept thinking, gosh, I just want to I just want to see how Casey is. So this foster, a woman that volunteers with us, Irene, who’s lovely, um, she had sent me, you know, pictures and videos that whole week that she had her because she knew how much I was into Joni.

Sarah: And she said, I’m going to bring her on Sunday and you can take her on, you know, a trial and foster just to see how it works out. So that was going to be Irene wasn’t going to foster for a little bit. She was just going to take Joanie, and then she was going to kind of be done. So this is important to the story. So I take Joanie. Not only was KC not into her, but KC was actually kind of violent towards her, which is not great. And it was really challenging. I’m laughing about it now, but I definitely cried a lot about it. And during this time, I want to say maybe the same week that I told that I took Joanie, there was a dog that had been found, I think, by Hope for paws. Peanut was on the street with a unhoused encampment, and he had been hit in the face with a broken bottle. Had a whole eye situation, and Sue needed someone who could take kind of a medical case and foster him. Irene is one of those people. She’s fantastic. And so had she had Joanie, she wouldn’t have had the space to do that. So she takes Peanut. Well, long story short, Peanut is now her dog. She is foster failed Peanut. They’re perfect for each other. Her dog that she already had, don, who’s a fantastic schnauzer.

Sarah: He’s a cool customer. He likes him and and they’re great. But I was so kind of just, so sad that it didn’t work out with Joanie. And then Joanie is now adopted by a wonderful woman named Nicole. They’re perfectly suited for each other. They’re fantastic. But I was so sad about Joanie. And then I had this realization that if I wouldn’t have been so much like, I need Joanie, I need Joanie in my house. It would not have opened up the space for Irene to take Peanut. Yeah, and then Irene was destined to have Peanut. They were meant for each other. And all I was meant to do in that story was help joanie just continue to be, you know, loved and socialized until she was ready for Nicole, her now full time mom. Yeah, and stuff like that. It’s so interesting when things like that happen and you can take a step back and sort of say, oh, that’s why that happened. I didn’t want that to happen, but actually, that’s the best scenario. And, you know, the universe knew more than I did in that scenario. And it’s it’s incredible.

Cindy: It’s really- I mean, briefly,  I’ve seen it because I’ve volunteered longer than Sarah, I’ve seen it many times when the dog picks the, the person and, um, I won’t go into a million stories, but my favorite one is we had this little fluffy dog, and she was like five years, she was five years old and I can’t remember what her name was, but she went to a she went to a family, wanted to adopt her volunteer, took her to the Hollywood Hills, did the home check, and the volunteer said, don’t leave her in the backyard, you know, she’s you live in the Hollywood Hills… There’s coyotes and mountain lions all summer. And they’re like, we’re not going to. Three hours later, I get a call from Sue. I can’t remember what her name was…

Sarah: The dog?

Cindy: uh, Shirley or something like that. And she was like, she’s at the shelter. She got picked up and I was like, oh, and I said, what’s with the what did the family saying? She goes, oh, I’m waiting for them to tell me she’s gone. They haven’t even told me she’s gone. So anyway, I go to the shelter to get her, and then I and I got her, and I was, uh, taken her to Sue, and I said, um, so who’s going to foster? And she goes, oh, she goes, I’m actually doing a home check because… So Joni, so this little dog, let’s say, I’m going to say Shirley, but we’ll call it Shirley was called Shirley, this little fluffy, Sue’s going to hear this and go, it wasn’t Shirley, Cindy.—. They put her in the backyard, went out to dinner, turns out.   Well, Shirley said screw it. Left the the backyard. Went out into the Hollywood Hills at night. Was walking down the path, uh, a park ranger on his horse.

Alison: Wow.

Cindy: Came up the path.  Shirley steps out like on the path. Hello. And he was like, well, hello. And so he gets her,  because — and he’s on his horse, takes her to the ranger station, and then  he takes her to the, um, uh, shelter. They look up the chip, call us. And then when, uh, Sue talked to the shelter, they said the park ranger would like to talk to you about adopting her. Oh, and so when Sue went to do the home check, the park ranger said, well, I lost my dog, uh, five years ago, and she looked exactly like her. And so it really tugged at me. And then just in the time that I spent with her, because mine used to ride the horse with me and visit the, the ranger station and all that stuff. And so Sue said, I’m so sorry, when did you lose your dog? And he said, five years ago. And he said, how old is she? And Sue said, she’s five years old. Oh.

Alison: Oh that gives me chills.

Cindy: I know. So it was– I mean, I mean, Shirley or whatever her real name is, that Sue’s going to correct me, she went out and said, no, they didn’t listen to instructions. There’s a park ranger here meant for me.

Alison: And did he adopt her?

Cindy: And he adopted her. Yeah, and he used to send us a picture. He was very handsome in his flannel shirt and his… And we said she found her Dudley Do-Right. And then she would go to the ranger station, and all the rangers were like, with this little fluffy girl. And she was like, check it out.

Alison: I love that, I love when God, universe, spirit, whatever it is, you know? Yeah,  is just like, all right here, you know, and how that cute little dog just survived in the Hollywood Hills. Yeah.

Cindy: Oh, yeah. We were like, oh my God. Yeah.

Sarah: Like incredible.

Alison: Yeah. So sweet. You guys are so…  I mean we could talk for 3 or 4 hours.

Jean : Yeah. The stories, the stories are so great. And what you’re doing is amazing.

Alison:  Thank you so much for doing this.

Cindy: Yeah. Thank you. We love it. Yeah.

Alison: Do you cry about this? Because I would be crying…of the joy

Cindy: She’s newer.

Sarah: Yeah. I’m not jaded. I’m not jaded yet. As they like to say, I’ve only had a few years of doing it, but, um. Yeah, I cry a lot about it. Of course. Yeah.

Jean : Yeah. Beautiful.

Alison: It’s so emotional to like, you know, one of my earliest memories with my father, who passed away when I was young, was there was a cat at Christmas with a kitten stuck. And instead of celebrating Christmas, my father and I got that cat unstuck.

Sarah: Oh my gosh!

Alison: That is like one of the… like, things, that talk about imprinting.

Sarah: Yes.

Alison: And I’ve dragged my kids after dogs and, uh, birds and boxes of animals going to a, you know?

Cindy: Yeah.

Alison: They are So beautiful. These animals, you know?

Sarah: Yeah I know.

Alison: So I’m so grateful that they are in the world.

Sarah: Yes. Thank God. What would we do without animals?

Cindy: Yeah. And Sue always says like they,  you can tell like they they’re grateful. Like they know. Yeah. Hey. Thanks, man. You know, I mean, some of them, you know- Billy’s… Billy’s a little jaded like me, but most of them are very, like you can tell they’ve come from…. And she always says they come from… really? Because people go, what’s their story?

Cindy: And she’s very direct and she’ll say, they all have very sad stories, but they’re all going to have a very happy life from here on. And they they kind of know it. They they’re like, thanks, man. I was, uh, you know, some of them have been pulled from the mouth of a coyote, you know. I mean, it’s they’ve all got traumatic stories, and then they’re like, phew, thanks. This is much better. Yeah.

Alison: It’s so beautiful.

Jean : You’re so Right. You can feel their gratitude. And and they all have different personalities, which is so endearing. And, uh…

Cindy: Yeah.

Alison: I want another dog.

Sarah: That’s maybe another lesson they teach us., Acceptance. Yes. Accepting people as they are, not how we’d like them to be.

Alison: Right.

Cindy:  That’s the other thing, too. That a lot of them don’t hold a grudge.

Speaker2: Yeah.

Cindy: Uh, they will come from really bad circumstance, and they do not hold a grudge. It’s kind of a I mean, some of them stay scared. You know, you can then take longer for them to get adopted, but they all eventually do.

Sarah: No. There was a dog that we had a little Chihuahua again named Venus and…

Cindy: Oh, yeah.

Sarah: She actually came from. I mean, like Cindy said, none of them have great stories that they came from necessarily, but she was attacked by another dog, and the person that found her was just a woman in the community that came upon it. And she actually thought that Venus was past, because she was in such bad shape. And as she approached her, this will just kill you. Venus little tail was wagging, so she had just come through an incredibly traumatic event had just been attacked, and her first response is- so happy to see you. You know that. Just that. I can’t even imagine that. And then it was so sweet. She stopped by the event and Venus, of course, remembered her instantly,  and was just going nuts, you know? But you take something like that happens to a human. It takes us a lot longer to bounce back. Dogs are so resilient. Yeah, and just that capacity to love and that hope for better and ready to accept it. And you know, not hold that grudge is incredible.

Cindy: Yeah, I think it is because they’re here to circle back to that. They’re here a shorter time. So they’re like, we don’t have time for this. I’m going to they’re going to get over. I’m going to get over this. They do. They have a lot of resilience, you know.

Alison: And right now don’t we need hope for better?

Sarah: Oh my god more than ever.

Cindy: Yeah.

Alison: That’s just such a beautiful lesson that you that you’re reflecting back to us. So. Thank you.

Cindy: Yeah.

Alison: That was great, you guys. Except I’m crying..

Jean : Yeah,,, Remember Luna? We both knew Luna, and I was caring for Luna Yes, but her tail was big and you could hear it, outside the door. You can hear her tail whipping on the couch.

Sarah: that’s the Best sound right?

Alison: And it’s funny, though, like Luna…I think I was, I think I was bitten or hurt by a very big dog when I was young. Luna was like a big like.

Alison: Luna’s head was big. Dog was so gentle with me because I think it knew.

Cindy: Yeah.

Alison: I was thinking like, you could grab my whole upper torso, you know.? .

Alison: Just be so… And it was always around me, right? Like it was so.

Sarah: Protective.  And they’re so comforting to that non-verbal comfort. A lot of times they’re not going to say anything. They’re not going to give advice. They’re just going to support and be there. Yeah.

Alison: Well, thank you two. You really are… And Sue and what’s her husband’s name? Jason.   Yeah. Thanks So so much for everything you do and this interview. And…

Jean : But we have two more questions.

Alison: Yeah, we have two more.

Jean : Yeah. So what does the word insidewink mean to you?

Sarah: Do you want to go first or do you want me to?

Cindy:  So for me, I thought about this a lot. It means a lot of different things to me. But inside wink, I think for me, it means…. I get choked up. It’s, uh. It means a a friendship based on, uh, like, like vulnerability. When you really open up to someone and are vulnerable and get to know them and get, and then you have that inside wink with each other at, you know, at events or something where you can just look at each other and know, and I think dogs have inside winks too about when they do know it’s their person that comes to the events. We can see them ones that are really scared and shy, that won’t come out from under a chair. You’ll see someone come up with a very calm, kind energy and you see them go to them and I’m like, oh, there’s a little inside wink where they’re like, that’s my person. And then that’ll be their person. You know, that’s I think it’s like a, it’s a deep, um, friendship. Um, you know?

Sarah: Yeah.

Sarah: For me, I think it’s those moments that I was talking about similar to the one with Joni, where it’s sort of like you have an idea of what you want to happen, and it doesn’t work out like that, but it actually works out so much better. And it’s one of those things where it’s kind of like the universe is a little bit like, I still have you, I’ve got you. My mom always calls things like that- god winks. It’s sort of like, yeah, you really wanted this, but like, actually, this is better for you. And here’s this. And, you know, it’s it’s sort of like that, you know, a little bit of fate where I always say everything that happens is perfect regardless of what it is, because that’s exactly what was supposed to happen, and it’s exactly what you need. And so that’s that’s what I think of when I think of an inside wink.

Cindy: That’s gonna make me cry- wow. cool.

Sarah: We’re all going to be a mess. Oh, no!

Alison: Yes. Finally. What do you guys think? Pie. Cake or ice cream?

Sarah:  All.  Can I have all of the above?  I love them all.  I try deeply to understand everyone’s point of view, but when people tell me they don’t like dessert, it’s something where people tell me they don’t watch television. I’m a little bit like… Yeah, i’m not sure about you.

Cindy: Yeah, or they don’t like dogs, people don’t like dogs too.

Sarah: Yeah.

Cindy: Yeah. You don’t like desert and you don’t like dogs. What the…. Yeah. Uh, for me, it’s cake,  i love them all, too. But for me, it’s cake. But it’s a very painful time for me because I’m gluten free. Yes. And so I have to find gluten free cake, which I can find it, but it’s it’s, uh, sometimes when I’m out, out and there’s no gluten free dessert for me, I feel really resentful of my body chemistry. I’m like come on, man. And every once in a while I’m like, all right, I’m going to risk it. And then I regret it.

Sarah: You pay the bill,

Cindy: yea But, um, a couple bites is good… But cake, gluten free now.

Sarah: I guess technically, after the adoption events, I will frequently stop at Jeni’s and get two half scoops. It’s one of my little Sunday rituals, so maybe, maybe really ice cream. But I do enjoy all.

Alison: Yeah I like sort of the turducken of it. Like I could have pie with cake and ice cream.

Sarah: Yes, yes.

Alison: I don’t have any boundaries?

Sarah: A dream within a dream, allison.

Alison: Yeah. So we’re all simpatico here.

Cindy: Yes, yes.

Alison: Yeah. Thank you so, so, so much. Yeah.

Jean : This was so much fun… And and all the best to this amazing… Your amazing organization.

Alison: Yes.

Cindy: Spay and neuter your pets. Like Bob, like Bob Barker. Listen to Bob Barker.

Jean : And Betty White.

Alison: That’s right.  Thanks you guys.

Sarah: Thank you so much.

Alison: I’ll talk to you soon, Cindy.

Cindy: Yes. Okay. Bye bye. Bye.

Alison: Weren’t they great?

Jean : That was a fun interview.

Alison: Oh my gosh,

Jean : Just talking about animals.

Alison: I know, how bad could it be, right?

Jean : Yeah. What a great organization.

Alison: Yeah. LA animal Rescue. And look, they’re all volunteers. Like that just makes me feel like people really, people can be so amazing.

Jean : Absolutely. And, And animals, I think, really bring out the best of us humans.

Alison: I agree with you. Yeah, I agree with you. And I feel too, that they are so in touch with, like, they must see the best of humans. Like. Oh, they probably don’t see a lot like, like, you know, the ones that are abandoned. But when people come like that, that ranger story of like that made me… That was so sweet to me.  Yeah. You know? And, um. Gosh, it just makes me want to adopt, like rescue dogs.

Jean : Yeah. Yeah. They’re so dependent on us.

Alison: And what nice people. And they were fun and smart and kind.

Jean : They were wonderful.

Alison: And so thank you so much, Cindy and Sarah and Sue and Jason and everyone affiliated with them all. LA animal rescue. And if you work for anyone, like, there are so many organizations that help animals and so this is just one…

Jean :  But they really drove home the fact to please have your pet spayed and neutered.

Alison: Right. And if you can donate money or time.  That’s really wonderful. And now go ahead.

Jean : Okay.

Alison: You had an idea. Now.

Jean : So we are starting a new little wrap up. We’re calling it fun fact. And Alison and I are going to each share a fun fact.

Alison: Okay, so how do you want to do it? Like, do you want to guess what it is? Do you want to guess the truth or not. Or should we just say it like. What do you think?

Jean : I think if we can do a guessing thing is fun.

Alison: Okay, so you go first.

Jean :  Okay, so my fun fact is, around the human body, and what I found on the internet is that the human body consists of a lot of fat. Alison, how many bars of soap bars of fat does a human body make up an average human body?

Alison: So if it was like a bar of soap.

Jean : Yes.

Jean : And you’re not like a very, you know, overweight person or a very, very like an average person, right?

Alison: Like me?

Jean : Yeah. Or me.

Alison: Or you. All right. How many? How many? If they were measured in bars of soap. Right. Um, I’m going to say.

Jean : Think of, like, I guess an I guess an Ivory soap bar or something like that.

Alison: Okay, I’m gonna say, um. Oh, this is going to tell a lot about me. I’m gonna say, um, 20. And what is it?

Jean : Seven.

Alison: Seven. That’s not a normal.

Jean : I didn’t think so either. When I read that.

Jean : Seven bars of soap. Seven bars of fat. Like soap bars, right?

Alison: No, I have more on my one buttock.

Jean : You do not spend seven bars.

Alison: I definitely do.

Jean : Okay, so what’s yours?

Alison: I have another one for you. Um. Uh, okay. Well, since we’re going to do the body, I could do a body one. Okay. What’s the strongest muscle in the human body?

Jean : Um. The heart?

Alison: No. But that’s so sweet that you say that.

Jean : The butt,  the glute?

Alison: No. The tongue.

Jean : Ohhh,

Alison: Right?

Jean : Wow, I forgot the tongue. Yeah, that’s a great one.

Alison: That’s a good one, right? That’s a very good one. And if you guys have any fun facts, you can send them to us or send them to me.

Jean : Or just put them through the Instagram.

Alison: Oh, yeah. Tell us on Instagram. We would love that. All right. Well that was it. So thank you so much for listening.

Jean : Okay.

Alison: And we’ll see you next time.

Jean : And we enjoyed this and we hope you enjoyed it too.

Alison: help an animal…bye

Jean :  bye.