Alison : We have no windscreen today, so we’re going rogue, Jean

Jean: What’s a windscreen?

Alison : That thing that comes over it to cover the microphone.

Jean: I didn’t even notice it, actually.

Alison : Really? it’s a free naked mic, isn’t it nice?

Jean: Looks nice.

Alison : Yeah. Hi.

Jean: It’s unencumbered.

Alison : It’s unencumbered. It’s free. It’s a free spirit.

Jean: Right.

Alison : How you doing?

Jean: I’m good.

Jean: How are you doing?

Alison : I’m good. We’re just talking about chapped lips.

Jean: Right.. Because it’s been so dry here and my lips get really chopped.

Alison : Me too.

Jean: I’m always putting on some type of lip balm.

Alison : Um, do you follow astrology?

Jean: No, I don’t follow astrology. But that being said, I’m way more interested in it now because of the wonderful book we just read.

Alison : Yeah, I really liked this book. I had a friend. We both had a friend, Donna, that really was very into horoscopes and astrology, and her enthusiasm kind of wore off on me. And so I really enjoyed talking to her about it. And I feel the same way about Maddy. When someone’s really passionate about something, then I like, glom on and enjoy it. Mhm. Do you know what I mean?

Jean: Absolutely. It like opens up a new, uh, creative expression. And I have to say, I always thought that astrology was on the confusing side and, um… What house you’re in… And this is… And, and she has broken it down so beautifully that it really made me want to engage in it more.

Alison : Right. Yeah. It’s like how I felt when you and I. You convinced me to bake a German chocolate cake for Dan. You broke it down. Your passion was there. Do you know what I mean? And I’m like, let’s do it. Yeah. You know, she’s great. Her name is Maddie Murphy, and I can’t wait to talk to her. She wrote a book called In the Cosmic Zone. Embody the 12 astro archetypes to unleash your genius and activate your authentic self. And it’s interesting. She takes astrology and puts it on another level. Like, it’s not really about astrology. It’s not like what? Moon? Like it’s just really about how you can live your life, don’t you think? This book.

Jean: Yeah, I think it’s it’s, um, as she writes, because I’m taking this…. It’s, um, noticing your patterns and understanding your gifts. And it’s it’s like a roadmap or a.,, Yeah, like a roadmap to your own to your soul. So that is all.

Alison : That’s right.

Jean: Yeah, but that came from her book somewhere. But I’m just remembering it.

Alison : But that’s really good. I mean, I really I can’t wait to talk to her.

Jean: I know, and okay… Besides being so fantastic as this, um, cosmic Rx writer who calls herself head, which,  she’s just such a….

Alison : Her writing is fun.

Jean: Her writings fun, but her personality is so gorgeous. I really listen to her on other interviews. So this is going to be.

Alison : It’s going to be great. Are you ready?

Jean: I’m ready.

Alison : Okay, here we go.

Alison : HI!!

Madi: Can you hear me?

Alison : Yeah,

Madi: Always, always the hardest part of just life is the technology. So once that’s on board, I’m, like, smooth sailing from here.

Jean: Who knew that we would have to become so tech….tech people.

Madi:  I did not sign up to be an AV. I’m like, I am a creative. I’m a storyteller. You think I know? It gives me so humble though. It keeps me so humble, I love it.

Jean: That’s so true. There’s nothing about embracing your inner techie in your ,  in the cosmic zone.

Madi: No, it’s like I can live in the cosmic zone. I can help you manifest your dream life. We can heal, we can co-create. But don’t ask me to understand why, sometimes the audio input works and other times it doesn’t. You know, like, don’t don’t ask me.

Alison : So true. We’re always, like, sitting here like this before.

Madi: Like like nothing changed. But I’m like, it just might not work this time.

Alison : Exactly.

Jean: And we’re recording. Alison.

Alison : That’s right. We did it. I’m Alison, Madi

Jean: Hi, Madi, and i’m Jean.

Madi: Hi, Jean.

Jean: Thank you so much for saying yes to being on our podcast. It’s, um, really wonderful to see you via zoom, but to have the time to talk with you.

Alison : Your book is so interesting. It’s not at all what I thought it was going.

Madi: And I think I like that…

Alison : Because, you know, you hear astrology and we all have our built in, like conformist stuff. Like I was like, oh, do I have to hear about, like, a moon thing? But it’s not like that at all.

Madi: Okay. Thank you. I’ve obviously talked about this a lot, and you’re the first person who really, like, picked up what I was putting down, I was like, I just wanted this to be a book that you could be really into astrology or kind of eye rolling at it and still get something out of it in just astrology for me, is just this beautiful lens and framework for understanding our journey of being a human, and there’s so much to unlock there that we don’t even have to go into the like Saturn and Venus of it all and the like some of this mumbo jumbo that we’re like, what? What’s sextiling who? Um, more just like the journey, right of of of this, like beautiful, um, archetypal like toolkit that I think the universe gave us. So thank you for, um, just mirroring that back so beautifully.

Alison : And I also feel like, you know, um, at least I am like, the person that I’ll read horoscopes and I’m like, oh, I’m not a Taurus skip. Like, oh,  I’m a Virgo,  so let’s see what that says. But then in this book I have learned that really all of these I am all the cosmos.

Madi: You are. Sing it baby, like you are all the cosmos…. Isn’t that, like, so beautiful and delicious? And it’s also this crazy reminder of like, oh yeah, like this moment in time we’re in. Even in history where we’re like, wow, we’re so different. We have to own our authentic self. But we’re all like the same thing, just different. Like proportions of the same ingredients. Right? Like that’s actually a really beautiful. Right? Like we all carry this. And are you a Virgo.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean: And we’re from New York.

Madi: Oh, okay. Okay, so we got some New Yorkers. So we keep it real New York. That’s why. That’s why my book, I’m like, I gotta keep this real. Okay. I gotta just make this, like, practical, because I get it. I’m a New Yorker, like my dad, you know, was a taxi driver, my great grandpa, steelworker. I got to keep things, like, a little level set for people, right? Like.

Alison : Yeah, Bronx, long Island.

Madi: Shut up. Okay. Yeah. So I’m, you know, Manhattan, Queens, Long Island, but had lots of family in the Bronx, so. All right, this is good. This is good. We’re, like, already, like, locked in. We’re on the same wavelength and seen.

Alison : Thank you for joining us, Maddy.

Madi: That’s all we need to know about that. Yeah.

Alison : We hope everyone got something out of that.

Jean:  I think it’s important to say if you would share a little bit about your journey. I know you’ve shared it with so many other people, but  i really feel that hearing what you experienced before you wrote this book really, uh, gives credence to why this is so important.

Madi: Um.

Jean: And sharing it with the world.

Madi: Absolutely. Um, thank you for that opportunity. I think, like, I think I do think stories help us, you know, connect and understand things so much more deeply in the world, but within ourselves. And I think a lot of people listening, if they’re drawn to your podcast, um, they have in common with them, is I was born with this, just knowing that there was like, something more. Yeah. What is that? I don’t know, but, like, you’re kind of looking around at certain things, and I was like, I just feel like connected to something bigger, right? Spirit source, God, the divine, whatever you want to call it, in that, um, you know, our human silly language we attach to things. And also that I was like, born for something like a mission. Like I wanted to help people, but nothing…. The usual routes were not it, right? I went through all the normal things, like should I go into social work? Should I be a volunteer? Should I go work in politics and everything? The universe was like, no, no. So it made me actually feel kind of lost, even though I always had this very clear sense of self, but like how it applied in the world, I didn’t really understand. And then, um, you know, the universe gives us a few moments. I would say that definitely it feels like everything is falling apart. You’re having these like, breakdown moments, but when you look back on them, you’re like, oh, actually, everything was coming together. That was my breakthrough moment. My first moment of that was I was ready to get married, walk down the aisle.

Alison : Yeah.

Madi: All signed, sealed, delivered. Everything done. And I just was like…. I always kind of knew it wasn’t really right, but I was just like, no, this is what you do? Get married. You’re 27. 28. Like, this person’s great. This that other thing. Um, and I just started getting this, like, huge…. Like, it almost felt a little bit like you’re going a little crazy because I’m like, wow, I’m having so many signs and symbols and interventions and dreams and my body shutting down. And is this telling me not to go through with this? But up to that point, I had really embodied the good girl archetype. Meaning, did not like confrontation, did not like letting people down. I didn’t even like if someone asked me, where do you want to go to eat? I don’t know, where do you where do you want to eat? Like what do what do you want to do with your life? I don’t know what everything in my life was for someone else. And it was my first moment that I just had to really, really own that this level of not choosing myself was like going to put me down a really dangerous path that this, like being a people pleaser, was turning into like a self-betrayal where I’m like, this is a really big decision, like who you marry. And, um, it was the scariest thing I’ve ever done because it was just on intuition. It was just on vibes. Nothing happened, nothing bad happened, but it was just like me finally realizing this cute little like college relationship that was kind of lukewarm. This isn’t like your this isn’t your big yes. And you have to learn how to distinguish. Right. Like the shoulds.

Alison : Yeah.

Madi: From like what you really wanted to do. And I just say this because, um, I found out later that it was during a very astrologically significant time in my life, in our late 20s. We go through this initiation called the Saturn Return. So years later, I was like, oh my gosh, I wish I knew that because I would have had a little bit more context versus thinking like, that’s it. Maddie’s gone off the deep end. Um, and what that forced me to do was essentially like, blow up everything that I knew in my life. Everything that was true, everything that had been laid, you know, laid out in front of me, essentially just blew it all up. And then so I was like, well, I have to rebuild. But now I made this really public stance that I’m not going to, like, have an inauthentic life. And I’m not going to say yes to things that aren’t true to me. So then I had to go back to square one and be like, what is true? Who am I? Who am I when I’m not just making myself into this little mold who I think people think I should be? Yeah. And that led me on a journey to coming back to astrology, energetics, metaphysics, studies like meditation, tarot card pulling. Because I was, like, desperate enough to try anything. Like I was like, you know, like I got a little bit, like, cynical of that stuff or skeptical of it.

Madi: Um, and then returning to it as an adult through my lifelines and especially astrology, because all those feelings I had as a young girl, like, I feel like I’m made for something bigger and I feel sort of like, connected in this way that’s hard to put into words. Astrology gave me my first roadmap to myself because in my birth chart is what I’m doing now right? Is sort of being this translator for the stars and the cosmos. But there wasn’t, um, you know, there wasn’t a guidance counselor out at my high school. So, um, so that was the first big moment that I was like, okay, like I’m locked in. I feel like, okay, a new direction, new tools, new language. And then that set me off on another, you know, many other adventures and misadventures. Um, but astrology has been something I’ve come back to over and over and over again. It has, like, saved my life. It has blessed my life. It’s helped me understand myself, other people around me, the context of sociological moments we’re in. Um, and so I am now on a mission to try and get it out to as many people as possible, but making it accessible, easy to integrate. A little fun, I I hope.

Alison : Yeah. You know what’s funny? It made me pull out a birth chart that I don’t understand and look up things. So you inspired me. And just to give our listener an idea, you’ve broken up your book into 12 archetypes that are meaningful to everyone. And it’s not really, um, it’s very accessible. And it starts with personals. Like why now? Why me?

Madi: Mhm.

Alison : Incorporating where you are. And then it kind of grows into sort of a worldview. And you describe that a little bit to our listeners.

Madi: Absolutely. Um so I love what you just held up is your birth chart and it’s a wheel. And so that’s the first thing is that I want people to understand maybe through this book, um, is that everyone’s birth chart is a circle. 360 degrees. No one is missing anything. We’re not born a fragment, right? We’re born whole in this whole expression of essentially, the 12 zodiac signs are a division, like we’re New Yorkers. So you imagine almost like a pizza pie in the sky, dividing the night sky into 12 slices. Those are the zodiac signs. So they represent like the wholeness. But we’re all born whole. I think we come in, you know, if we know a little bit of astrology. I’m a Virgo, I’m a Virgo, I’m this, I’m that. But then that’s a piece of it, right? We’re born with access to a mansion, like a mansion, and some of us are like walking into the mud room of the mansion and being like, why don’t….. And this isn’t that great? I’m like, yeah, like you’ve only just got in like one step, like there’s so much more. And, um, so I love to really help people understand that within them are all these 12. I call them archetypal energies because to me they exist way beyond like a person or a trait. But it’s these like gifts from the universe. And like every gift, sometimes you know, they can be a blessing, sometimes they can be a burden. It’s up to us to understand how to to wield it. But, um, in this expression, it’s like every single challenge we come up against, there’s a key in our chart to unlock it. Everything we want to do and create, everything, how we want to expand or evolve, um, it’s right there in our chart to help us unlock, oh, what’s the archetypal energy that I need to embrace or embody to open up to more abundance or more love or more trust? And  I’m a Virgo, so I love problem solving.

Madi: I love connecting dots. Once I realized that, like we had this, I was like, do more people know that? Like we carry all of this energy within us? It’s It just for a lot of us, it’s dormant. We’re not aware. And so my book, I like to think of it as a little bit of like a book and maybe a little bit of like a spell. Because even if you don’t understand every single thing happening in your chart just by reading it is this understanding of like, oh, I do have all of this within me. I felt that before or I know that feeling. This is how I can maybe work with it a little bit more mindfully. Um, and you know, I am a big believer of putting proof behind what I do because I was doing this for myself. But then I started working with clients and, you know, kind of friends and people on referral basis and then just kept the business, kept, you know, people, more people being referred to me. I didn’t have a website for like six years. I was just book, book, book, book, book taking people through this journey of their chart and really like going in and building this toolkit based on this. And I realized that every single one of us, whether we’re someone who works in Hollywood, someone who’s, you know, top of their game in sports, whether we’re a beautiful like mother or someone who’s initiated into motherhood or a teacher. I was like, we all come up against the same 12 universal blocks.

Jean: Mhm.

Madi: To living in our light, to living in self-trust. And those 12 blocks have a key to unlock in our chart. So it was so cool. I started seeking out clients and I’m like, no, I wanted to work with people with different ages, different backgrounds because I was like, is this really like work? And I was like, oh my God, it’s so cool. It really does. Um, so that is sort of like each of those zodiac signs that we can kind of like roll our eyes at or tease or see little like jokes like, oh, Virgos are this way, or Scorpios are that way. That’s fun, that’s silly. It’s fun. I found that too. But like, um, on a higher level. Yeah. I’m like, this is like, everything we need to know. Um. About what unlocks us when we feel stuck. Everything we need to know to feel really embodied and really here and present and everything we need to know to live in alignment.

Jean: And when you say alignment, are you so is that how you define the cosmic zone. And so what is the cosmic zone.

Madi: Yeah. So I mean really the cosmic zone in a really simple way. I’ll break it down a bit more to me is just where you are living in a state of your life where you feel really alive and things feel like you are flowing, you feel fulfilled, you feel there’s a certain level of freedom to what you’re doing and that you’re having fun. Like, I just want to reiterate to everyone, like we’re allowed to have fun. Like we’re serious things happening always in life. Those never go away, but we get to take ourselves a little less seriously and actually experience joy and whimsy and pleasure and delight at being a human. Like, it’s a quick ride. Like, let’s enjoy it, right? And so, um, and that actually creates more like resilience and, um, and, you know, regenerative energy for us to deal with the harder things. Um, but I like to think about living in the cosmic zone is three things knowing your authentic self. Because we can’t do anything without that. Because like that version of Maddy I was talking about up until 27, I had tastes of who I was authentically, but like, how are we going to live in our cosmic zone in a place of all those things? I just said fun, freedom, you know, flow state. If we’re like wearing shoes that don’t fit, like how, you know, we’re like walking around in shoes that are three sizes too small or big.

Madi: Like, we’re not we’re not having fun. We’re not in flow. We’re like clunky, we’re restricted. Um, so understanding your authentic self and really just giving yourself permission to be multidimensional. That’s my favorite kind of permission to give people is that like, you don’t have to just be scientific or just responsible or just smart or like, you know, I think especially as women, we’re like, wait, we can be smart and spiritual and strategic and sexy and wild and domestic and like, like, oh my God. Yeah. Like, we don’t have to be one thing. So understand your authentic self. And then embodiment is a big thing to the cosmic zone, which I guess the simplest way of saying it is, like all of us, we read so much. We all have the internet, Instagram now we have like these ChatGPT and AI models. So we’re like, there’s an abundance of information out there, right? Um, but like, can you really, like, ground it into your body? Can you Walk the walk. Can you also, like, be really present and like land in your body, which to me is, you know, where all of our power is. Um, and then alignment that comes from all of that is, I like to say, it’s like you’re surfing with the universal rhythms.

Madi: Before you understand all of this, maybe you’re caught in the riptide and we, you know, East Coast girlies. We know like that Riptide, you’re out at Jones Beach or Robert Moses or the Hamptons. We’re like, you don’t want to be going against that. Like, right? That’s where  life is really exhausting and dare I say, scary. But then all of a sudden it’s like, oh, like I feel an authentic self. I feel embodied, and I just kind of trust my yeses. And I trust my nose. And I know it’s all working out for me because I am, like, present to everything. I’m paying attention to signs from the universe. I’m understanding my astrological rhythms a little bit where I can say, oh, you know what I tell my clients? There are seasons of life to push forward and seasons of life to pull back. And when you understand that, it’s like, oh yeah, like I’m surfing. It’s almost like I’m playing with the universe and this co-creative state. Um, so it’s a long explanation. But if you were like, wow, that was a lot. I would say, just go back to those F’s. I said, it’s the flow, it’s the freedom, it’s the fun, it’s the fulfillment.

Alison : It’s not long. It’s great. Um, you talk a lot in your book about, um, like, intuition and following your gut. So how do you know the difference? Or how will I know the difference between intuition and fear? Dressed up as, um, sometimes I don’t know  that I know the difference sometimes. Do you know.

Madi: I know it’s very pesky fear….fear and anxiety are  like a little self-critic. I feel like they learned how to, like, overpower the intuitive, like, take over the the microphone, the audio.

Alison : But that is the intuition.

Madi: Yeah. And you’re like, is that my intuition is telling me to be… So if everyone’s,journey for themselves, I’m going to recommend two things, i’m a Virgo and i love to give homework. It’s in my book every chapter’s homework. So anyone listening,  I’m going to give you some homework. Um, so that’s embodiment is doing it for yourself, right. So the first thing I’ll say is a broad like thing to check in. What I’ve learned from years of doing this and years of getting people, especially women, to really trust and act on their intuition in some bold ways, like really like big life changes based on intuitive hits. The first thing I say is that your intuition is never mean to you. So if you have a voice in your head that’s telling you you’re too old or too this or too that, no one’s going to like you. You’re going to fail miserably. That’s not your intuition, your intuition. It comes from the same source, I believe, of like a higher power. Like it’s your intuition, your higher self, your higher power. They are operating on one channel and they do not speak to you in a way that is mean. Okay. Like that’s the first thing any, like, mean, nasty talk,

Madi: that’s not your intuition, right? Um, and the second thing is that your intuition is quiet. So we do have to…. That’s why I like meditation, stillness walks, journaling, putting the phone down. I’m speaking to myself something like, why is my intuition not speaking to me? I’m like, because I wake up and I’m like, the phone’s in my head like this, close to my brain, like millions of thoughts all day. So like, I’m like modern day meditation practice. Just like, don’t have your phone for an hour. I promise you, your intuition is going to come through loud and clear. But creating some space, um, for your intuition to get through to you. And then from there, like noticing your intuition is quiet, but it’s persistent. Like I feel like fear and things come up in a moment, like a knee jerk. And they’re loud and they’re like, it’s like a lake. They’re like splashing around in the lake, like someone jumping in. Whereas, like, your intuition is like ripples, like very steady. So it’s to like, quiet the mind a little bit. But there, there, right there, like like for me, this person’s not the person for you to marry. Like, I felt that for a long time the night I was proposed, to which everyone’s like, this is like your dream night.

Madi: I remember laying awake all night and I love sleep, I love sleep, I, I can always sleep. That night I laid awake all night staring at the ceiling. And so that was like my first hit. That like something like my intuition was like, okay. And then I just kept getting these ripple effects and these and these thoughts. And usually your intuition when you think of like following it, like, what if I did because my mind was terrified, right? I had we were moving across the country. My friend group was all my security, all my identity was wrapped up in this person. Plus, being a people pleaser, I’m like everyone I know just spent all this money and time and we have all this stuff set up like. But when I really thought, like, brought myself into my mind’s eye of following my intuition. I felt open like a flower. Like opening, like blooming. Like wow, that feels really light and free. So usually if you tune in and if you follow that, like, what if I did that? Usually energetically you’ll feel lighter or more alive.

Alison : Mhm.

Madi: Because that’s where your intuition is usually trying to guide you. But the homework I would say is doing something to build the mystical muscle before it’s a do or die moment. Like that was my, that was my do or die moment. I went, I went, I went all in. I was like, okay, I guess I’m gonna do this now and trust my intuition. Um, but I work with my clients. I’m like, there’s so many little ways you could track your dreams. You can just practice. Like if you get an intuitive hit for a friend, text them, call them like, I was just thinking of you, or I really needed to hear that. And you’re like, okay, mystical muscle. Like, I’m right. We work out in the gym. So that way we’re strong for like in real life moments, we’re like, okay, we’re working our flexibility, like our, you know, our mobility. And then when we fall on the curb, we’re like, oh, I got right back up. I’m so happy I worked on that muscle for so long. So it’s the same thing. And I think, um, pulling like Oracle cards, like buying an angel card or a tarot card, even, like, even if you don’t know what they mean, just pulling them once a day for like a month and seeing like, oh, wow…. When I pulled that card, it made me think of this person from work, I don’t know. And then maybe like later that night, you get an email from them and you’re like, okay, like I’m just you’re just starting to understand that there’s more happening in your mind than just like our, our overpowering thoughts. Um, so, you know, I would say everything I just said, you know, got to make space for it. Your intuition is never mean to you. And it usually is like quiet but persistent, and it leads you to somewhere that feels open and then finding some way to work with your intuition every day, like a muscle.

Alison : You know, I love that you said, um, uh, it’s quiet because there is sometimes an I’ll call Jean. Like, I’m nervous to do this thing. I’m nervous to do this. And Jean will just say, well, what if you didn’t do it? How would that feel? And it would feel lousy.

Madi: Yes.

Alison : You know what I mean? Like I think. Oh, yeah. Right. So you’re right. It is sort of like you feel this… Oh, yeah. No, I really guess I’m going to do that thing.

Madi: Yeah. Like the not doing it doesn’t feel good either. And I want to tell everyone like I sometimes, like you are scared. I think your intuition is telling you to do that is like the leaving the comfort zone for the cosmic zone. It’s not that it’s not scary. It’s not that. It’s not like fear isn’t there, but it’s like an exciting fear. Like it’s like, oh, could I breathe into this fear and actually realize that it’s a little bit anxiety, excitement for doing something that’s out of my comfort zone. Um, right. And, like, kind of sitting with that and not being afraid of that fear, instead being like, there was some from the book, The Big Leap, um, he talks about like the difference between fear and excitement is just our breath.

Alison : Oh.

Jean: Oh yeah.

Madi: Can I, like, breathe into this and let this feel like, oh yeah, like, this is exciting fear…. not like,  the fear like we’re going to die if we try something new. Like, oh my God…. You’re like, well, probably not…..

Jean: We wish our listeners could see your face.  hahaha

Jean: Oh my goodness. Okay, Madi, do you feel,  I feel you can use your book like an oracle deck.

Madi: Yes. Thank you 100%.

Jean: Okay, you can hold it right. And ask the universe to show you.

Madi: Okay. You two are very. You two are very plugged in. Okay- i’m sorry-  i’ve been talking about this book  non-stop for six months. And you two are picking up on some stuff that I haven’t even had a chance to talk about. No one knew. But when I wrote the book the whole time, I really just had my prayer over. The book was like, I’m a, I’m a girl. I’m a messy girl from Long Island. I don’t have the you think, who am I to write a book, right? I have a lot of experience and receipts and things that I’ve kind of gathered along the way that I think work for people. But at the end of the day, I can’t sit and write this book that I have it all figured out for anyone picking this up, but I just chose to write it like a prayer and be like, I just like, let things come through that I think someone might need to hear. And I want this to be a book that the confession- I don’t read a lot of books that are self-development, self-help books cover to cover. I pick them up on days where I’m like, what do I need to hear right now? Right. And it’s always slapped. And it’s like, I want to be that for someone, right? Like that kind of bibliomancy they call it. I want to be like, you’re going through a hard day, or you pick this up in an airport, Hudson News, and you just open to a page and you’re like, yeah, that’s exactly what I needed to hear. And that’s all we need sometimes, right. So exactly. So if you use this book of like as a way of testing your intuition, what I need to know today, what do I need to focus on or what am I not seeing about this scenario or myself right now? And you open up to a page like really practice trusting. Trusting what you read, trusting how you interpret that.

Jean: I love that you say that because I got up to about chapter five and it was beautiful. I felt like Every chapter was talking to me. I could relate to every.

Alison : Yeah. Me too.

Jean: And then I, I, uh, I was going to bed, and I picked up your book. I knew we were having our interview, and I turned and I just opened to around the the 12th chapter – Trusting God.  And it was exactly what I needed.

Madi: Mhm.

Jean: Yeah. It was beautiful.

Alison : Yeah.

Madi: Oh that makes me so happy.

Madi: Thank you I love that. That’s all I wanted to just have as a book that had its own sort of connection to, to people and words in there. And I um you know I this might if anyone’s like, not tuned into astrology, they can tune me out for a second if this is going to confuse them or they’re not into it at all. But, um, what’s cool about working with the book is there’s your personal astrology where you could just read it like, okay, I’m a Virgo sun. Maybe I’m a Gemini Moon. I want to really hone in on the back of the book has a little like explanation of what that unlocks. Like, okay, if you want more emotional fulfillment or you want better relationships, like go to these keys. Um, you can also read it. I recommend the book just by the season. Right. So we’re in Aquarius season right now, which is all about revolution and humanity and progress. And you know, we’re definitely feeling that. So you can read the 11th key and be like, what am I focusing on right now? All right. If the future is ours, like the future belongs to us, that’s really cool. Um, but then there’s this, like larger cycles of astrology, and this is where it’s a little confusing if you don’t know.

Madi: But, you know, I have a lot of stuff that I offer that helps break it down. But what you just said really struck me, because we are in this collective moment where we’re all meant to be walking a little bit in a more Pisces energy, like, which is being in that like really connection to God, connection to seeing God in each other, connection to You like? Oh, right. Like, what if we’re in a place of deep healing right now and we’re actually coming together? And can we just trust we can’t really see everything ahead? Maybe. But, like, can we lead with the heart? Right. Can we have more empathy? More compassion? Um, and so like, that’s just something that like, on a larger level, like we’re all being asked to connect with more. So I love that something in you nudged into that and it was like, like you’re stepping into the the stream into the current, right? The surfing, you’re like, oh, I needed to hear that. But that’s also probably, you know, part of your assignment right now to get into alignment is that which is just like, makes me just tickles me.

Alison : I thought it was really interesting in this book about your idea of harmony.

Madi: Mhm, mhm.

Alison : Because right now, like I think people believe that they are right.

Madi: Mhm.

Alison : No matter what side you’re talking about or who you’re talking about. I’m right. And it’s this very intense conviction. Mhm. It’s very binary black and white.

Madi: Mhm.

Alison : And um, I would love for you to talk a little bit because I think what you’re saying is so right. Like when I read that last chapter I was like, oh my gosh, this is exactly where we are. We need to figure out like you’re talking about like a new harmony. And that harmony is like harmony is not like, um, I forget how you say it. Do you remember how you said it? It’s so perfect like about that…. It’s not just, uh, it’s a new creation.

Madi: It’s a new creation, and it’s like, new, like, um, thank you for saying that. No, it’s so, like, can I think about it a lot? And it’s so funny. You write something and you’re like, I don’t sometimes I write, I don’t know where this is coming from. And then I see it like in a lived out moment. And I think that so many of us can acknowledge that, like the world we live in could be done so much better, right? Like across the board. I don’t care who you are. It’s like there’s a lot of room for improvement here. And I think that we think that we have to like, hold this, do this thing or hold this like, torch or be this, have everything all figured out. But like, no, we actually just have to bring like our unique note with the intention of creating something beautiful and new and like in a choir or in a chorus, like someone’s not expected to hold one note the whole time, right? Like someone comes forward with their part, they take a breath, someone else comes forward with their part. Or there are certain moments where like, does this go together? Like, actually it can go together. Like we can create this harmony. And there’s almost like a, like a, a new song that we’re weaving in our society and a civilization kind of as we know it. And I think that it’s just even going in with the intention of like, we can create harmony. So that was like the Libra key. This year I saw in New York at Central Park… You know, they had the strawberry fields.

Madi: So they had for John Lennon’s birthday, who was a Libra. They had everyone went and sang a song and their song, like everyone’s while they were singing and they were representing like, we each have a note to bring right in. Like, imagine to imagine a new future. And I was like, this is what I was writing about. I didn’t even realize it or think about it from that way, but I was listening to them like, how how like, um, it made me tear up. Yeah. All these people, and they weren’t professional singers, but they all brought a note and it made like the harmony and the resonance. It like, brought me into the heart space. I was like, really moved by it. And I was like, oh, we can create harmony like that. That was a cool, like lived experience of art experience, what I was trying to convey in people. And, you know, I just like to tell people because as an astrologer, people was like, what’s happening? What’s happening? And I’m like, all I have to say is that like that harmony, like focusing on that, we are not going back the way we came, like we are going to a whole new future right now and something no one on this planet has ever lived through. And it’s I keep calling it like the joyful reimagining. Like we get to reimagine right now, like how we want to feel and live and be in community with each other. Um, and we all have we all have a note to bring. Even if you think you don’t, you absolutely do.

Alison : Right. And I think too, you, you talk a lot about um curiosity.

Madi: Mhm. Yes.

Alison : We find that people when we because we do read a lot of spiritual books you know for these interviews and curiosity is such a key don’t you think, to living in love.

Madi: It is because it’s open. And at the end of the day, like love is about being open hearted, right? Right. So once we think we have, like, something locked in, we close our heart, right?

Alison : And I love, I love some of your book made me tear up actually because I thought some of it… I felt you were speaking right to me, which was kind of creepy because I didn’t know you. Um.

Madi: I love I love creepy people out in the best way possible.

Alison : I was like, wait, who is this? Get out of my head. And then some of it was just like, oh, there is…. It felt hopeful.

Madi: Yes. Yes.  Well, first of all, I love everything you’re saying, and I’m going to put a pin and come back to the curiosity thing. But if there’s one thing that I have a lot of, and that I would bet my bottom dollar on, it is hope. And it is that we are going into a much better reality for all of us. And I’m not just saying this again when I started studying astrology the first time for myself, I was like, this is really empowering. I got to know about me and my cycles and who I am and my purpose. But then I started studying. A few years later, a teacher gave me a book about like the history of the world, The Astrological lens, and I was I love history and I’m up at night like 3 a.m. my now husband is like, what are you doing? I’m like, honey, like, we’re going into some crazy astrology. This was like 2017. He’s like, what do you mean? I’m like, I’m like 2020. My teacher was like, 2020. March 2020, we’re going to go through a big reset. We’re going to start imploding society and rebuilding it. And like 2025, 2026. And I was kind of like, yeah, because, you know, sometimes, like I love the spiritual community, but sometimes we’re a little dramatic, right? Like we’re on Instagram like the biggest full moon of your life. You’re going through a portal. And I’m like, really? Like every full moon, are we? Again, my New Yorkers like, are we though? And then so I’m like paying attention and I’m interested and I’m reading but I’m a little bit like what’s going to stop the world.

Madi: Like we live in a very fast paced world. Nothing happens. We can barely hold on to something for like a new cycle more than a day at a headline, right? And then March 2020 happened and I literally, I literally called my teacher. I was like, wait, hold on. Everything you told me, tell me again now because I need to dial in. And he told me, and I’ve been studying it very, um, avidly. Is that like, we’re just going into a really a time where we’re, like, unearthing so much, but, like, there’s so much potentiality for, like, a shift, like we’ve never seen and especially for heart centered, compassionate, empathetic, like spiritually attuned people to really be like the leaders in a way that’s almost hard to comprehend, but like they will because they’re being uplifted, because like, the universe kind of knows like that’s who we need to bring us out of this. Um, and I’ve seen it through, um, astrology is like data science. Like, you just see, like, oh, well, every time this happens, these are these, you know, historical moments that happen. And so we’re in a few different cycles, and each and every one of them points to a beautiful, like reclaiming a beautiful, like redistribution of power, a beautiful redistribution of who’s the leader of healing. So but like any healing, it’s like, it’s not it’s not exactly neat and tidy when you’re going through it.

Alison : Right?

Jean: Yeah. It’s like, you know, they liken it to giving birth. It’s not a clean …

Madi: It’s not like the movies –  you’re not like. And I’m pregnant and I leave the room and I’m just like perfect hair and makeup and sunny lighting in there.  You’re like, no, that is raw. .

Alison : There’s Screaming.

Madi: There is primal scream. There’s just things flying everywhere. I threw up multiple times during my labors. Like my husband’s like I never saw that side of you. And I’m like, yeah, like I’m it’s it’s very, you know, it’s tomb womb energy. Right. It’s a death thing. It’s a birthing. Um, and I just think about, like, every day I’m like. I just think it’s so cool that, like, my lineage, like, my bloodline was like, yep, you can handle this moment. So I’m like, cool. Like, I guess I’m here for a reason. Um, and it’s what gets me really hyped up on days where sometimes, you know, it can be a lot like all the news. You’re like, it can get you a little down. But I just like to tell people you were born right, right now on purpose, with purpose. And it’s not by accident.

Alison : That’s great. On purpose. With purpose.

Jean: Very beautiful.

Alison : And lately I’ve been saying to my husband. And he said to me today, where did you get this? Out of your comfort zone? And I’m like, right here, mister. He’s laughing because I’m like, I think I’m going to take up Pilates. Yes. Out of my comfort zone. I walked out of the room. He’s just like, where is Alison?

Madi: I am obsessed with that, I love it. God bless all of our…. just like husbands who are just… Like what? Like. Okay. And also like what? But, like. Yay! But like what?

Alison : That’s exactly right. Oh my God. Is there is there a truth in the cosmic zone that you think people will resist the most?

Madi: Yeah. Um hmm. Okay. I usually my go to answer is I think about this a lot. Like, my biggest one is usually, um, the the Aries key. Like the first one that starts off the book is like, why me? Like, because I think we all think that, like, we read spiritual things or we see truths out there or even right now, like back to the collective. It’s like we all have to be a part of it. Like no one’s coming to save us. We all have. We have a very Aries energy happening in our society, but I think we all kind of look at ourselves in the mirror and be like, not me. Like, surely she’s not talking about me because, like, we just know ourselves too much. I’m like, no, like I can’t even like, you know, make eggs without burning them, and I’m gonna save the planet. Yeah, right. Or, like, I had to go through the whole journey of, um, my of getting out of my comfort zone to my cosmic zone. You don’t do it one time, right? Like I kind of do live in my cosmic zone. I try to stay there, but part of it is that you keep putting yourself out for new things. So you have to go and find that edge. And for me, writing this book. Yeah, I was like, why me? Like I am? I don’t have a bunch of fancy letters after my name.

Madi: I’m not like a celebrity guru on like, whoever show. I’m just like, again, I’m just a girl from Long Island who talks a lot. And I think I got something to say, but I don’t really know. And so I’m writing the book and all of a sudden I’m like, and I had gotten my book deal and then I gave birth like, so I’m also in this like postpartum energy where you’re just like, I haven’t showered, I haven’t talked to an adult. Like, I’m in, like deep in, like breastfeeding, like Miss Rachel, like like no sleep. So I’m like, really like, who am I to write this? And I had to be like, why not you? Like, you have things, you have help people. You’ve helped yourself like girl like get back in, like why someone’s got to do this. Why not? You like. And I had to literally walk myself through every single one of those keys in the process of writing the book and promoting the book, because. But it was good. That’s how I know I’m like living, you know? Yeah, a life where I’m alive. But I find that one people are like, even if they’re like, yeah, subconsciously they’re like, no, not me.

Jean: Mhm.

Alison : That’s so interesting.

Madi: Yeah.

Alison : It’s I thought that would be an embraced one. That’s so interesting.

Madi: Maybe it’s the people who I like tend to work with. Like, they’re kind of, like, all recovering good girls in some way.

Alison : Huh?

Madi: So they’re like, no, like, I don’t know. But part of what I like to do with my work and my community and my clients is help people tap into, like, their bad, bad B energy. That’s like bad, bad, bad bitch with a good heart because it’s like.

Alison : Yeah.

Madi: You kind of need both. Like, you need to be really good hearted, but you also need to take up space and have confidence and be okay if it’s not everyone signing off on every decision. Um, I think the other key right now is like the key eight, um, I will not be shamed is kind of what’s like a lot of that is what’s happening in our society right now is like, we’re unearthing a lot of things that feel really heavy and dark, and we’ve been taught to, like, not talk about them or look at them. And actually, by just facing it head on, especially in the spiritual world, people are like, no, let’s just keep it light. Keep it high vibrational. Let’s stay focused on the positive. But like you actually do have to go into the places and look at the things that seem heavier because they just take away so much of your power by not acknowledging them. Right. So I’m always like, yeah.

Jean: It’s I just want to touch on that chapter. I think the way you…oh I hear someone…

Alison : oh Wait, who’s that?

Madi: I know, I’m sorry it’s just my little two year old decided to join us. So little Scorpio. Speaking of key eight, he’s like, I’m a Scorpio. I’m here.

Alison : He can totally be there. We love that. Yeah.

Madi: Yeah. Hi. Um, yeah. So sorry about.

Alison :  I love I love it. No, no, sorry. We love that stuff.

Madi:  you know mom life…. We’re like, oh, okay.

Jean:  You really articulated the shadow side so beautifully in your book and the importance to take a look at that.

Madi: Um, yeah.

Jean: and that it’s okay. And I love Free to Be me. It was so such a great chapter.  I mean, they all are, they.

Alison : they are all are really good.

Madi: Yeah, that’s one of my priorities for everyone reading the book. If they could just touch upon something. Right. We carry around a lot of things that feel really heavy because we’re not like turning to them and we turn to them. Usually those are the things that actually, like create the most gold in our lives if we just are able to, to sit with it. Um, and especially for women, it’s like it’s the biggest thing. I see people transform from being like this, like victim kind of feeling to being this, like victorious, full present, really powerful version of themselves. Um, so yeah.

Alison : Sometimes you have to walk through the fire.

Madi: You really have to. You really have to. And that’s what’s so cool about telling stories is because when you’re in it, every time you’re like, I don’t want to do this right.

Madi: I just want to watch my show on Netflix and have a snack. But then you go, but then you go through these moments of, like, looking at the things that you’re so scared of, you don’t want to look at or and you realize you’re like, oh, oh my God. Like, thank God I went through that, right. Because now I know, I know what I’m working with. I feel transformed, I feel more clear. And that is again, the tomb in the womb. What we’re going through right now as a collective.

Alison : Exactly. So we’ll let you go play with your son. We just have two really quick questions.

Madi: Yes.

Alison : What do you think inside wink means?

Madi: I first of all love this. And I saw it on the prompt to ask. I thought about it. To me, the inside wink feels like this quiet inner,  yes, like cheeky little wink from your higher self or the universe. Because I literally feel that feeling like I’m getting a wink from the universe… Like you know how you guys are all random? And then these two beautiful ladies repeated back everything you wanted to put in the book. You’re doing it, girl. Like you followed your intuition. You did it wink wink nudge nudge wink. Isn’t that so cute? And again, the universe, God like, has a cheeky sense of humor and wants us to feel fun. So that’s what it is to me.

Alison : And did you want to do the best one?

Jean: Oh, the best one is do you like cake, pie or ice cream or which one you prefer?

Madi: So I think I have to go with pie and I’m going to specify like a pudding pie or a pudding pie. Like a graham cracker crust and give me like a chocolate pudding cookie crumble on top. Goodbye, everyone. Leave me alone. Like I’m just gonna really have my way with that. Um, but such a good question.

Alison : We we always. It’s so fascinating what people say because. They they we we talk to these people like that are neuroscientists or something, and they’re like, oh. This question was hard. Pie, cake or ice cream  you know, it’s just like, okay, thank you so much. You’re so much fun.

Madi: Oh, you are both a dream.

Jean: You’re so Lovely. We’re so again, so thankful for your beautiful book, for your presence on our in our life and and on our show. So all the best to you.

Alison : Yes.

Alison : Yeah.

Madi: Thank you. It’s really fun. Thank you.

Alison : Have a great night.

Madi: Oh, that was so fun. Thank you. Sorry. He, like, came in, but it was pretty good. 45 minutes I was like okay. It was perfect timing. Um, but let me know if you need anything follow up wise. Let me know if you’re in New York, you want to hang up, but you two are like your dream. I talked to so many people, I’m sure as you do and like, especially the past few months. But you two really, like, lit something up in me. Thank you.

Jean:  Right back at you. You did it for us, too.

Alison : Good night.

Madi: Right. Have a great night. Bye.

Alison : Wow. I felt like like like she was a kindred spirit.

Jean: 100%.

Alison : Right? Yeah.  And I really think that this book, um, is a toolbox and even just some of the things she said, I felt like were little nuggets today just to live by.

Jean: Yeah. She is so wise and so funny. And and her offering is this book that she’s offering as her like legacy of love in a way…. Um, it’s it really can touch every single person.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean: And and as you and I were sharing before, you know, you can also glean into someone else’s sign and figure out, oh, you know what? They’re they’re moving through that so I can be a little more compassionate with that person. Um, so it’s it’s she was wonderful. This book is wonderful.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean: And, uh. You’re wonderful.

Alison : Yeah. No matter what your sign is, we’re with you. Just got you got you got some moon rising somewhere, and we’re loving it. Well, thank you so much for listening.

Jean: Okay. Have a great day.

Alison : Oh, we said at the same time.

Jean: Ding!

Alison : Okay.

Jean : Good afternoon.

Alison : Good. Good afternoon, Ms. Trebek. How are you?

Jean : I’m well. How are you doing?

Alison : I’m pretty good, you know. I’m going out tonight, um, for dinner with some friends.

Jean : Yes.

Alison : Which I love, to an Italian… I believe it’s a vegan restaurant because one of my friends is vegan, and I love seeing people. And I love seeing these people. Alan and Kathy.

Jean : Wonderful.

Alison : They are such good people. You know, when, like, you just want to hug people.

Jean : Yeah,

Alison : That’s the energy that..

Jean : You’re like that Allison..

Alison : Am I?

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : That’s the energy that they have.

Jean : Well , You’re in good company.

Alison : Yeah,

Jean : They’re in good company.

Alison : We’re all in good company.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : Do you want to come?

Jean : No.

Alison : Yea, You have Matthew.

Jean : Yeah, but you have a great time.

Alison : Thank you.

Jean : So speaking about good company.

Alison : Yes.

Jean : We get to interview Paola.

Alison : Diflorio and Peter Rader, and they are filmmakers that work together, work separately, and they’ve done some incredible documentaries. Either they’ve directed them or produced them or both.

Jean : Yeah.  so they’re a married couple team that, uh, I think their partnership is exquisite.

Alison : Me too. They compliment each other so well.

Jean : Absolutely.

Alison : And their movies are great. So we had the privilege of watching three of them, “Awake – The LIfe of Paramahansa Yogananda”.

Jean : Right. “Infinite potential” –  That’s about the life of a quantum physicist, David Bohm”

Alison : Oh, I love that one, and then their latest documentary, My Father the Healer”, which is an incredible journey that you take with this, with this healer, his son and these filmmakers.

Jean : Right

Alison : It’s really. I can’t wait to talk to them.

Jean : Yeah. I mean, the work that they are putting out is really beautiful. And, you know, it’s it’s it is about an inner transformation, And not only, uh, I think what they really drive home is that there is more to life than what we just see with our eyes and ears. There is another realm that even quantum science is picking up on and acknowledging. So, um, it’s going to be great. That was a great intro. Here we go,

Alison : Here we go. All right, hang on everyone.

Jean : Hi, Peter.

Alison : Hi, Peter.

Peter: Hello. Paola is joining. Here she is.

Paola: Hi.

Alison : Hi. how are you? I’m Alison.

Paola: Yes.

Jean : And I’m Jean.

Alison : And that’s Jean.

Alison : Thank you so much for doing this. We have been watching your films, and, boy, they… When you watch them, you feel better when you’re done.

Paola: Really? That’s great. Yeah. They’re excellent. They’re excellent. So thank you very, very much. You know, when, um.

Paola: Thank you very, very much for having us. Yeah.

Peter: It’s really an honor.

Alison : I’m Excited because this is our first, this is our second time, I think, talking to people in the film business.  Because we talked to Bill, we talked to Paul Raci. Right.

Jean : Right, right, and I just have to say on a personal note that, um, your movies really, um, they’re the type of documentary, the movies that you make that really touch, touch me at a deep level. And I know I’m not alone at that. And I also want to share that I, um, screened the movie the Awake at a church and everyone was over the moon about it. So, um, I feel like I know you through your movies already, and it’s a real treat to have you with us today.

Paola: That is the best compliment, actually. Thank you so much for saying that. And what church was it?

Jean : It was the North Hollywood Church of Religious Science.

Paola: Okay.

Jean : That’s Science of Mind.

Paola: Yes, I know that. That’s that’s, uh.

Peter: Jean,  was that in in our during our original release like around 2015 or more recently?

Jean : I think was. Uh, because it came with like a like a press kit.

Peter: Yeah. Like a that was part of our campaign was to do community outreach to churches and… Yeah. Yeah.

Jean :  so that’s how I found out about you.

Paola: That’s Amazing.

Jean :  So and here we are getting the opportunity to speak with you about all these great films in your lives as filmmakers.

Alison : And, um, we just when I talk to people that were going to meet you, they’re like, oh, I love, Awake. Everybody’s seen that film.

Paola: Your community is the community, for sure.

Alison : Yeah,

Peter: Our people.

Jean : Your speaking our language. I mean, that’s like preaching to the choir.

Paola: Fantastic.

Alison : When you have these films that have such an impact and discussions about spirituality, how did you settle on those themes? Because it seems like thematically that’s what you keep exploring. How did that….  What happened to you guys that you thought, hey, let’s do this?

Paola: That’s such a great question. You know, um, I think initially, um, I was more interested in like the my very first film was really about finding voice. And I think that not just NADJA SALERNO-SONNENBERG was a world renowned violinist and she no longer is a soloist, but, you know, she’s one of the most extraordinary soloist soloists. Uh, on violin in the world. And, um, I knew her growing up, and I just, uh, I was astounded just listening to her play. Her mother was my piano teacher, and I would sit and do piano lessons, but I couldn’t concentrate because she was practicing violin down the down the hallway. And I think that that expression that need to express-  courage, you know, the courage to find what is, where your seat is, who you are, and, um, and really be comfortable in that and then really express that is, I think, the theme of transformation. And I think looking back, because I think at the time I don’t think I was aware of it, but I believe that all the stories that I’m really attracted to are about human potential and transformation. And that is a spiritual journey. And so not knowing it led me to the next thing and the next thing. And, you know, um, Peter and I actually co-facilitate a, um, a creativity and spirituality lab at Esalen. And, you know, one of the things that it really is about is is coming into alignment, right? It’s coming into alignment. And I look back and I really think, um, sometimes ideas find us, rather than us find the idea. And that certainly was the case with, Awake. So after making a social impact film, um, and more than one, it sort of led me to spiritual impact. And that was very new for me. It was for me that was an awakening coming into spirituality. Spiritual impact and what our purpose here on life really is through that lens. Um, so now it’s I think once you go through that portal, it’s very difficult not to see things that way anymore.

Jean : Yeah. I couldn’t agree more. Yes. That, um, you know, when you .. For me, all so many of your films really marry the the spiritual and the physical and coming into alignment with that, it reminds me of the word human, Hu, meaning God, man, man. And you even touch upon that with with, Infinite Potential.

Peter: Yeah. That’s a movie. Um, we produced and distributed. We were consulting producers and we did the final edit, and then we brought it to market. So it’s not Paola’s film as a director, though, she was involved in the in the sort of re-editing of it because we were given a very long cut. Um, but, you know, um, people talk a lot about social activism and, you know, needing to do something and, you know, have impact, social impact, social activism. Well, the thing that we’re now sort of realizing is that there’s this incredible power in spiritual activism and, and that begins with us, like doing our work, you know, our own healing because, you know, in a Buddhist prayer, like in a practice, you always begin with yourself. May I be happy, may I be peaceful, may I be filled with loving kindness and compassion. May I be free from suffering. And then you extend it out to the rest of the world. And that sort of vibration goes out and out and out all the way out. But it does need to begin with us. And it’s a very, very powerful practice. So we sort of pivoted from this, like completely externally faced. You know, I used to be a Hollywood screenwriter, you know, and now, you know I’m Paula’s partner in the company. She founded, Counterpoint Films. And, uh, you know, we’re doing, for instance, mentoring other filmmakers, inventors, entrepreneurs, you know, all creators in that lab. She mentioned, by the way, it’s called source to screen from source to screen.

Alison : Yeah, I love that. Put your own oxygen mask on first, right?

Peter: Yeah. Yeah. On the airplane. Yeah.

Alison : It kind of makes sense. How do you like you know, I really loved Waterworld.

Peter: Thank you.

Alison : I loved it. And, um, how do you know whether or not a subject should be a narrative or a documentary?

Peter: That’s excellent question. Um, so we when we mentor filmmakers, so when we do this lab at Esalen, we usually have about 25 people. And the first question we ask is, what is it? What does it want to be? The idea needs to tell you what it wants to be. It’s a lot of people say, I want to make a film. Are you sure? Are you sure it’s not a blog? Are you sure it’s not a series of essays? Like, how do you want to tackle that subject? What’s the most articulate and effective way of transmitting it? And basically to your receivers, to draw in your audience. And, you know, the the material needs to tell you what it wants to. Obviously, Waterworld needed to be Buster and other movies want to be other things.

Alison : Okay. That’s interesting.

Jean : Okay, so I’m curious how each,  what’s your individual creative expression that you each bring to the to making a film?

Alison : Mm.

Paola: Well, you know, we actually, um, we had just the, the pure joy of, of making my first film together. Um, Peter, uh, shot it and, um, we had just met, and it was super exciting. Um, and it was, uh, for me, it was really a beautiful mentorship. Uh, Peter really supported, I think he saw something in me and really supported the creative flow. And for me to jump in and take a chance at directing my first film and, you know, um, and that partnership was just that was founded right there with the making of that first film. But he was still writing, you know, Hollywood screenplays and, um, and we don’t always work together. So he’s, you know, writing a script right now, and, and I’m directing a documentary film. And so sometimes we do our, our own separate things, sometimes we come together. But what we really come together on is the messaging… Right now, that messaging, whether whatever form it takes, if it takes the form of, you know, a a narrative or a documentary or, um, a book in Peter’s case, um, that’s just going to dictate what it needs to be. And we support each other in everything that we do. So, you know, if he writes a book, I’m reading every chapter or he’s reading it out loud to me, um, and he sees every cut of, you know, everything that I’m doing. And we just really just help each other through. And then sometimes we’re professionally and more, um, let’s say, formally collaborating.

Alison : You know, I think part of the beauty of the human experience is, um, the flawed aspects of our personality and our ego. I actually think that that’s, um, kind of why we’re here to learn. And what’s interesting is in all your films, there are these people that are like these huge, uh, you know, Yogananda and yet he had trials and tribulations. What do you guys make of that? Like, like and how does that affect your own life?

Peter: So, you know, we both want to answer this, i know, but I’m going to start, um, you know, Paola and I met literally 30 years ago. Water World was being released in July of, of, of 1995. And we met 2 or 3 weeks earlier. And in our very first conversation, within minutes, we were talking about archetypes and story. Um, we we that’s our passion. Our passion is is storytelling. And, you know, we’re both writers and we’re both really passionate about, passionate about exactly what you said, Alison, which is the human experience and particularly the aspect that you’re talking about, which is essentially the fall from grace we will all fall. That’s part of the human experience. We will fall many times, and we actually teach this as a module in, source to screen is- what’s the fall? And how does the fall inform your character? Sometimes the fall is a secret and it happens, you know, before, you know, like in Chinatown. The fall from grace happens off screen and way, way in the past, and no one’s going to talk about it. But in Yogananda’s case, this is something that Paola literally fought for in the storytelling. We were working hand in hand with the organization because they controlled the archives. And, you know, we had sort of some checks and balances in terms of the story. We kept saying we need to humanize the guru, and we say that to anyone who’s making a, you know, a movie about a guru is where did he fall? Where did he fail? Where did he cry? What was the betrayal? You know, that’s the second act of that movie. And it really humanized him. And, you know, it was a shock to the devotees. They knew nothing of that part of the story. They’d only read the autobiography, which is all exalted, you know. I mean, there’s some trials in there, but it’s still it’s exuberant, it’s young. But he came to America and boy, he faced racism and injustice and betrayal and all these very human things. That’s what we think makes stories interesting.

Paola: Yeah, I would say that the the human journey, you know, just being human. Um, there’s a reason why, uh, in any creative endeavor, they call it the hero’s journey.

Alison : Yeah.

Paola: Right. It is a hero’s journey just to be alive and to walk through this earth and to really understand our purpose and to navigate all the, uh, all the pitfalls, all the challenges, the the beautiful glory of it all. It’s it’s a journey. It is a journey. And I think that, um, you know, now, what’s so great about getting older is that you start to look at that journey with a wider view and you realize, gosh, you know, we always think that it’s just us in the beginning, right? We think we’re alone going through these trials and tribulations, um, and that we’re the only ones being tested. And, you know, then there’s sort of like a wake up that happens. You wake up to something and it could be something really painful that happens, that wakes you up. Or it could just be, um, like a malaise that comes over you or some sort of thing where you realize that, hey, um, these values that I’m living with, where do they come from? Are they really from innately within me, or are they from some outside force that is telling me what to love, what to be, how, how to be? And I think that that wake up for me is really interesting. And I find that in every story is like, where do we find ourselves coming back home to ourselves?

Alison : Yeah.

Paola: And I would imagine, Jean, that as a healer, you’re always bringing people back to themselves. I don’t know if you would think of it that way, but for me, that is that is a healing journey.

Jean : Oh, I couldn’t agree more. I do think it’s all about bringing yourself back to the heart. Your mind or my mind is is can be very analytical and and I can actually feel it when I’m living too much in my mind, I get tired, you know, I just I just don’t feel right. And I think that is healing is is just integrating back to the heart, putting, you know, coming back to a, you know, a more state of presence. And, um, but and I think that’s what your movies do, you know.

Alison : You know, like, like in these movies there is people like these, these, these people that have devoted their lives. I felt trying to escape their humanness also in a way which I think is so Interesting. Like in, My Father the Healer…. Oh my gosh, that movie is so intense to me because you got that son in there, right? And then you see this man like with all, and then it it leaves him and… Right, like he his whole life changes and the people aren’t there. And the devotional like, what do you think? What did you think about that? Like, I just thought that was wild, that he was kind of, um, all those people focusing on him and then not having that…. That’s a wild experience for a human being.

Peter: You’re you’re talking about the fundamental forces, right? There’s that desire to bypass, you know, there’s the God complex like, my God, you know, this guy you’re talking about, My Father, the Healer, or the latest movie that we’re we produced and are You know, distributing now and just actually won its 10th festival award last weekend.

Alison : That’s fantastic.

Peter: And the hero there is this, it’s a docudrama, so it’s documentary with fictional, you know, recreations in there. Um, is is a gentleman with extraordinary abilities from China who essentially gets named in this book as a prophet in an ancient text. He’s in there. He thinks he’s the prophet. And my God, does that just blow up his head?

Alison : Yeah.

Peter: And he does what we humans do, which is hubris. You know, it just inflates this ego. And you think it’s spiritual, but it’s my God, it’s the opposite. And then he has this humbling and, you know, an incredibly heroic journey for a Confucian master who’s supposed to have it all together and know all the answers, and especially with respect to his son, he’s supposed to be this great masculine figure. And, you know, by the end of the movie, he’s, like, weeping and admitting that, you know, he it he went crazy. You know, it’s such an incredible journey. We love Master Li so much.

Paola: But I think that the I think that journey also is one where, um, you know, the mission wasn’t fully accomplished, right? It was it was helping and healing other people and then forgetting that he had to heal himself. Right. And I think it’s our nature to avoid suffering. Right? It’s our nature to kind of want to suppress or, you know, um, let just avoid avoidant behaviors, uh, anything. Look at all of the, the ways in which, um, you know, the outer world is seducing us into suppressing and, uh, and making making it harder for us to get in touch with what is in the way, what is really in the way of us getting into that alignment. Right? So for me, the stories, all the stories really are telling that same story, which is coming back to yourself, coming back to what is truly who am I, right? Who am I? Is that question? And there is, i think we’re all born with a unique nervous system, right? And so that nervous system is really that’s our guide, our internal guidance system. And if we don’t listen to it, eventually it gets us into trouble. And that’s what happened to to to Master. Lee. He’s an extraordinary, you know, um, super spiritual human, but was definitely pushing something down that, uh, that was a horrible pain regarding his, um, growing up in Maoist China. And it just that gave him running away from that is what gave him, I think, the opportunity to, um, explore his spiritual gifts. If he hadn’t had that, he may have never explored his spiritual gifts. They came… That’s the thing, there’s always two sides to that coin. Yeah, but if we’re not willing to look at it and we’re suppressing it, it will come back. It will come back, right?

Alison : Yeah. Yeah.

Jean : Oh, that’s for sure. It’s scary.

Alison : I know.

Jean : I mean, that that’s the tantalizing thing with when you start, uh, being introduced to spirituality, you can easily fall into that spiritual bypassing where you’re not really looking at these core wounds that that we come here to embrace. Um, I think a lot of people including, you know, was was always used to pushing it away. Yeah. And, um, you know, and then it’s it’s coming full circle. And, uh, I did love My Father, My Healer, and, um, I’m curious, was is there a film that you guys made that you felt, oh, my gosh, I my consciousness has really been shifted here.

Alison : Mhm.

Jean : Or was it a little bit of all of them… Yeah. Because I can remember reading a book and I would think wow I, I am being leveled up.

Paola: Yeah yeah yeah . I mean for, for me definitely, Awake. You know I think every, every single one, you know, every single one because I think that, that, you know, Speaking in Strings was, was um, you know, story of, of basically coming into oneself with her voice. And so it, it was my creative voice was found with that film, um, and then Political Awakening with, with, um, home of the brave, but, wow, i was not prepared for Yogananda. You know, like, that was really quite, quite the journey to come into, um, that film and to travel to India to learn about yoga on such a profound and precise level. Um, it really inspired me, I think, to go into the texts and to really, um, it was a it was an unfolding and unfolding that was never going to end. I think I realized that’s never going to end for me. Like it’s just a constant, such a deep well. But that was traveling to India and to the Himalayas into, um, the cave of the Param Param, guru of Yogananda, uh, Babaji and kind of seeing, um, and experiencing something that at that time I didn’t really understand. So I couldn’t certainly understand the idea of a timeless saint.

Alison : Yeah.

Paola: Um, I grew up with a Catholic father and a mother who was, uh, you know, a biologist and and then a therapist and and she was an atheist. So I kind of had a little bit of both, you know, and I really had a difficult time wrapping my brain around such a concept. Right. And I think, um, I remember we were filming in this cave, which we just recently visited on our recent trip to India. And I came down, we traveled ten hours down to Delhi, and something happened inside my body that was quite, uh, unusual. And it was just something that was vibrating inside my body. I didn’t know what it was. And I look back in time and realize that that was the beginning of something that was just cracking me open, you know, and realizing that I had a lot to learn and that I was stepping into a much more expansive world that, um, was going to take me on quite a life journey.

Alison : Fantastic.

Peter: And that was just production. And then, you know, was then sitting at the editing on the timelines. You know, we all contributed to the editing of this film. And Paula would spend, you know, days and days and hours just seeing Yogananda’s footage and his face. And every time he was photographed or, you know, filmed, you know, he had George Eastman, the founder of Kodak, was one of his disciples. So he was given a movie camera and equipment. So they, you know, there’s some really powerful archival footage. He would always make direct eye contact with the lens. You know, we thought at first. God, that’s so goofy. It’s so self-conscious. What is he doing? My God, we can’t use this. But then we realize that he’s actually transmitting through the barrel of that lens. He’s transmitting. You know, the Shakti, the darshan, the energy of a guru, you know, so that Paula is like getting this, you know, day in, day out. And it’s like, you know, you’re getting a Yogananda sound bath there.

Paola: I think I think you have to be in a place where you’re ready and receptive to those things, because otherwise, you know, it doesn’t happen, you know?

Jean : Sure.

Alison : Exactly. You come out of editing and your hair’s like, whoa! Yeah. Enlightened. I love that. Um. Do you what, what is your, if you don’t mind me asking your guys practice now? Like, are you have have you shifted to more Buddhism? You and I had very similar upbringings. I had an Italian family, and then my father was agnostic. And, you know, I went to church alone with another family. But then when I stopped eating meat, my grandmother took me to the priest because I had to have, you know, the whole thing. So, like, where are you now? Where are you leaning now in terms of your own growth and spirituality?

Paola: Yeah. I mean, I, um, look, I, I wasn’t the same after making Awake. You know, um, that that really I had a meditative practice before that. And I’d been practicing yoga in my 20s since my 20s. Um, and I think Peter and I, when we met, we were more on the Buddhist path. So I didn’t really understand devotional, um, practices. So, uh, but after, you know, in the years of making that movie, because it was years, um, I –something switched, There was like a light switch that went on and it was, uh, I practiced I learned Kriya Yoga because I didn’t think I could make the film… I mean, I definitely had, let me put it this way…. I could not have, I could not have had that switch happen had I not taken that journey to India. That’s really where it started for me. Then in the editing. But I knew after the trip to India something profound had happened for me and combined with the research that I had done, I really was interested in getting initiated into the area.  When I was initiated into Kriya Yoga, I didn’t realize that from there it would just be this never ending depth of information and growth that would that would happen spiritually.

Paola: So I’m very committed to the Kriya. Yeah, that’s definitely my path. Um, and I would say that also understanding that trauma, um, which I’ve definitely lived with childhood trauma, you know, and various it’s complex, but it’s, it’s that we have this ability, and I would love to talk to you Jean about this because it’s it’s for me… We have this ability and innate ability in the yoga tradition to get in touch with, to really in a very detailed way. Um, make contact with the energy points that are within the body and the chakras. And if we work with what we have within us, right through practices, through pranayama, through, um, meditative practices. And actually, um, we are working with the energy points and we can actually work with that energy in a transformational way and work with deep, deep traumas. So that is, um, I’m learning some new techniques in healing that are really, uh, working in this way through pranayama, through breath, through kriyas, and helping to release deep seated, um, trauma. Yeah.

Jean : That’s I mean, that’s so great to hear that your your heart is in alignment with that, with that mode, with that Kriya yoga mode of healing. And the great thing I…. And you can tell me what you think, but there are so many ways we all have a unique and beautiful path to us just tapping into that part of us that is beyond the story. So it’s honoring the story and sharing the story and knowing that we’re not the story. And all the while, you know, we have this beautiful body and many religions and, you know, kind of push aside the body, and yet here we are with these beautiful houses that hold our consciousness and that hold the trauma. If we don’t, I don’t want to say honor it, but just recognize it, recognize it, not judge it, kind of pull back from a victim, you know, state of mentality around it. And then I just think it’s it becomes God’s. It’s all up to to spirit, you know, really letting bringing it to spirit and letting spirit uh, re restructure it.

Alison : Yeah.

Paola: Yeah.

Jean : In a way that’s, that’s no longer you might still remember and have triggers. And I don’t think it’s always about not having a trigger, but when you have the trigger, you, you just become very aware. Oh that’s, that’s, uh, that fear, you know, and going, I can stop and pause and and not react or have it control me anymore.

Peter: Yeah. There are, you know, there are so many modalities. You know, Yogananda has this great quote which is, um, the ideal future will be a combination of the technological advances of the West and the ancient spiritual wisdom, the ancient technology of the East. “ideally balanced global culture” Like if those two could come together, it’s, you know, we’re unstoppable. And now, even in the West, there’s all these nuanced therapeutic practices. So, for instance, both Paola and I have therapists that do internal family systems, Heart’s work, um, where, um, what you’re talking about, Jean, which is there’s the trigger,  can I create a little separation between me, the witness, and the thing that’s going crazy here? You know, if you can, then there’s this there’s this sense that that’s, yes, that’s that’s the story. But it’s not me. I’m, you know, I’m not it. And so you start to work with those energies a little bit and loosen, loosen the hold of, of all that stuff on you. And there’s, there are many, many ways to do it. Breathwork practices, meditation, you know, um, yoga, walks in nature. Some people, you know, equine therapy, spend time with a horse, you know, um, whatever, whatever works for you. You know, that’s the important thing is figure out what works for you and then lean in, you know?

Alison : Right. We’ve talked to a lot of people on this podcast, and the theme is this always comes up as curiosity. And I think documentarians are very curious people, like what you said about you were trying to play piano, but you were more interested in the violin daughter, you know, um, so if you could go and document any moment in history ever, what do you think would would appeal to you to do to do now?

Paola: Well, that’s a really loaded question.

Alison : In a good way or like a edit this out way.

Paola: Is there a choice?

Alison : Yeah. Yes. You can. You can say whatever you like. Okay. My father was a reporter and he was like, you guys. And he was very, very curious. And, um, I always wanted to ask him if you could, if you could have interviewed or covered anyone. Um, who would that who would, who would you? Not to change it, but just to document it.

Paola: Yeah. The reason I hesitate a little bit is because, um, I think that that I guess what I, I guess what’s coming up in this conversation and what is really true for me is that, um, the most important thing as we keep coming back to is this alignment, which to me is equating with healing. Mhm. So I’m very interested in any stories that really, truly do that and take you there. And I guess the hardest thing and the most interesting thing for me too, is to do it on a personal level with a very, very big loss that that, you know, Peter and I had, um, a couple of years ago with the, with the death of our son and, and there’s, um, so much, uh, connection between the, the depth of love and the amount of grief and this beautiful, rich life, um, and the vacuum that it created. And there’s something about being pushed into that reality that is really teaching me and forcing me to, um, to understand that line between story and what is story and story has truth, and story can be distorted, right? Story is something that weaves from distortion and truth and something that we really experience. And um, so to document or to write or to document in any kind of way because, you know, narrative can also document that story. Um, but to use it as, um, as a source, as a resource for a story that’s true about a particular experience or a moment in time and how it’s impacted and affected the lives of the people around. So if I, if but I the reason why I was hesitating is because it’s so deeply personal, and I’m still processing it.

Alison : Yeah, well, thank you for even sharing that. You know, it’s very, very moving and.

Paola: Yeah.

Jean : Yes.

Paola:  I’m really drawn to, um, whatever it is… I’m really drawn to truth.

Jean : Um, that that is so obvious. For both of you.

Alison : It is so obvious. You know, it’s interesting. We we interviewed Scarlett Lewis, whose son was…

Peter: Oh, I know her well, yeah.

Alison : And, um, the amount of, uh, it brings tears to my eyes,  and you guys are creating the same, uh, feeling for me. The amount of love that she just had has so much love and grief that, um. We interviewed doctor Jill Bolte Taylor.

Peter: Yes, Another hero of ours.

Paola: Yes. We love her.

Alison : I am, like, in love with that woman. Because at one point in our interview, she said, um. It was boring just being the peaceful side. Yeah. And that when her mother passed away, the meatiest, um, deepest emotion she felt is the feeling of grief. Mhm. Because it’s so connected to love and it’s so vulnerable and it’s so you want to throw up in a way. Do you know. Oh yeah. And she just, she changed my whole view on, uh, aiming for peace or aiming for, you know, really being solid and in your emotional state. And I think it’s amazing that that you know her and that you.

Paola: We don’t know her, but she was somebody who I, um, I really felt was Peter saying she’s one of our heroes. I mean, I heard her, um, I heard her –  was it her podcast or her, uh, TEDx talk?

Alison : Yep.

Paola: Initially. And I had to run out and get her book.

Alison : Yes.

Paola: And then read her book and just thought, wow. And then, you know, there’s there’s another story, a similar sort of out of body or, you know, near-death story. Eben Alexander, I don’t know if you’re familiar.

Alison : We Interviewed him.

Paola: Oh. You did. Oh, wow. Yeah. These are these are really fascinating, fascinating stories. But that’s right. In other words, those are people that actually experienced going to the other side.

Alison : Right.

Paola: And then had the privilege of, you know, or, you know, chose to come back.

Alison : Right.

Paola: And I think that, uh, you know, in, in our case or in the case of people that don’t don’t leave and come back. Um, there’s still a choice, right? And the choice is to re create a relationship with that person that has been lost. Because that relationship, I don’t believe. I believe that it’s a continuum. So for me, it is really about okay, I can’t see it, I don’t know it. And I want with every ounce of my soul for that person to be here and present. Um, but that’s not going to happen. Nothing. Nothing that I can do can bring that person back. So the idea of leaning into that felt sense. Um, the communication that does happen, to really explore and lean into that is courageous.

Alison : Yeah.

Paola: And it’s courageous in the same way as not just salerno-sonnenberg courage in standing up and being exactly who she is when she touches that violin and Viola Liuzzo’s courage in leaving her five children and husband to go stand for what she believed in as a woman in the 1960s for civil rights. Um, it’s the same courage that Yogananda had. You know, it’s the courage to live by your conviction no matter what anyone else says.

Jean : It’s so true.

Alison :  And we’re in a time right now, we talk about this a lot… We’re in a time right now where there’s so much divisiveness, and I think people think that they’re living in their convictions.  And yet there is a lack of empathy or, and I think um, i think it was in Yogananda that it was the folding into the whole and unfolding back into the individual.

Paola: That, yeah, that’s, Infinite Potential.

Alison : I was like that. I had to keep going back and I wrote it. I have it on my desk because, you know, I think we’re just I think we’re at that point where people need to hear that. Do you agree? Oh.

Paola: Yes. And you know, who was a very dear friend of David Bohm is the Dalai Lama.  And and we just had just the blessing of meeting him in during our trip to India. And it was incredible because, as you mentioned, compassion, you know, and so divisiveness, compassion, you were saying, is the thing that’s missing. And in the presence of this man was just the vibration, the vibration and the the, the Presence of that energy of compassion. So much so that there was just nothing else going on in that moment. You know, the amount of love and compassion and presence and attention that he was able to give to one individual, you know, um, at a time was, uh, was just extraordinary. And I thought to myself, like, this is this is the lesson.

Alison : Yeah.

Paola: Is presence.

Jean : Mhm.

Paola: Right. This is the lesson. So divisiveness is um, I think you were, you were coming off of that as we were talking about being in your conviction, standing and acting from your conviction, I don’t know that, I think is the truer we get to that, it’s not as divisive.

Alison : Yeah.

Peter: Yeah. You know, um, Paola used the word conviction, and we’re using that word, but but there might be a more articulate way of saying it because, you know, people are acting on their so-called convictions and it’s causing mayhem, um, you know, in a lot of communities. And I’m working with this, uh, sort of a spiritual coach. And he was, um, talking to me about this. He says he asked me a question. Do you think that there’s a there’s a truth that everyone in the world agrees to? And my immediate answer was, hell no, of course not. We have all sorts of different opinions, and there’s no way that we’re all going to agree on one truth. And he goes, let me let me ask the question, when is true? When is true? And I guess, okay, okay, you got me now. Now is true. This moment is true. And the idea that we can lean into Presence, like Paolo was saying, like, you know, His Holiness the Dalai Lama of being absolutely fully committed to the moment, to the person in front of you as a divine being. You know, just that idea of that intimacy of, you know, that that those types of interactions, you know, are, are, are true and flawless. Um, when we bring in stories and all that stuff that we learn and we’re told and history and future casting and all this stuff of, you know, those are all stories that are not right now, you know, right now is immaculate. And, um, just the I there’s a courage, and the conviction of being willing to be present is perhaps, you know, that’s kind of perhaps the gesture.

Paola: That’s so great. I mean, like, I think that that’s a great way of putting it, Peter, because I think that presence is sort of the one story. Right. And I think that really what we’re talking about here is when, when, when we come, we were talking about the word alignment before earlier in this talk. And I think that when we are in alignment, we are in the one story and that is our conviction. That is our unique nervous system that we came in with, right. Which is a piece of something and a reflection of something much bigger. That is the Oneness. So, you know, the closer we get to what’s true, I think we’re not we’re not trying to convince anyone else.

Alison : Yep.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : You guys are fantastic.

Alison :  your electricity bill must be low because you are just lighten it up. I think it’s I… You guys are really I. You’re so wonderful. Thank you so much. You really, you gave me chills so many times. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Paola: No, thank you so much for the opportunity. And we really love what you guys do. And thank you for doing what you do and for bringing these conversations.

Alison : this was a lot of fun.

Jean : We really have.

Paola: I’m sure.

Jean : And I know Allison and I could talk with with you for a long time.

Jean : We’re trying to keep our conversations, sort of, you know, at 45 minutes. And I’m going to wrap us up with a with our question of what does the word inside wink mean to you?

Peter: You go Paola.

Paola: You want to go first? I, I actually, for me I felt like, I feel inside wink to me is is sort of the, um, it’s the spark that comes with everything that we’ve just talked about, which is like coming into Presence, coming into truth. And when you know it and you feel it in yourself and in others, that to me is the inside wink.

Alison : Yeah. I love that.

Jean : Beautiful.

Paola: Peter.

Peter: For me, it’s it’s like, um, this the skinny on something really cool, like an open secret. But we’re going to talk about the inside wink, you know.

Alison : Oh, I love that both. Those are both. Excellent. Very. That’s and fun.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : Like I haven’t heard the skinny on something in a while I love that. Um, and then finally, probably the most important question we’ve ever asked anyone pie, cake or ice cream?

Paola: For me, it’s all three.

Alison : Yeah.

Paola: And there’s no way I’m going to be able to distinguish between those three.

Peter: And for me it is papaya because I don’t do sugar.

Alison : Okay.

Jean : I love papaya.

Alison : I love that. Well, thank you so much. And thank you for bringing your movies and your and your heart and your soul. It’s so clear to see you in your documentaries. Like, I’m not surprised that you’re such wonderful people. Thank you so, so much.

Paola: Thank you so much.

Alison : For your work.

Jean : And your presence and your wisdom.

Alison : Yeah.

Paola: And you’re right back at you.

Alison : And when you have more films, we would love to talk to you again.

Paola: Okay great.

Alison :  thank you so much. Have a beautiful day.

Paola: Thank you both.

Jean : Bye. Thank you.

Alison : What did you think of that?

Jean : I mean, talk about presence.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : And wisdom and vulnerability.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : You know, it was, uh. I really could have talked to them much longer.

Alison : Me, too. And they were so generous with their answers. And it was just really… What an interesting conversation. Yeah. And they. I said the minute we got off, I turned to Jean and said, they’re really smart. Like, oh my gosh.

Jean : Very articulate and very heartfelt… You know, all their answers were, were were from their deepest part of themselves. And I really appreciated that. I also wanted to share with them, i didn’t know if they knew that the Self-Realization Temple in Pacific Palisades, where we had all those fires, the building right next door to the temple was burnt down, and on the other side… And the only thing standing there is Paramahansa Yogananda’s temple. It was untouched by the Palisades Fire.

Alison : I didn’t know that.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison :  That’s like a miracle.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : Right. Wow. Yeah. When we write to them, we’ll let them know.

Jean : Oh, yeah.

Alison : Right. Okay. We’ll communicate with them. But, um, some of their…. The idea of being present. And I thought when Peter said when is the truth? Right now. Like just to remind us just to be– even if you don’t see their films, just listening to this interview about being present and about committing to your journey and committing to…

Jean : Your own truth, your own your own direct experience.

Alison : Right. And allowing yourself to actually grow into the best possible you, you know, the biggest, most expansive view.

Jean : I love that. Well said.

Alison : Thank you. Well, you did the one in the intro, so I had to do one good thing. Um, we hope you enjoyed it and have a, um, have a great day.

Jean : Have a great day.

Alison : Bye.

Alison: Hello? Yeah. Okay, great. We did it.

Jean: Very nice.

Alison: We did it. And we were enough. We were enough to do it.

Jean: We’re totally enough. And we’re not going to criticize ourselves or over evaluate.

Alison: That’s right. Wow. It has been a time. Huh? It’s been a time. A lot going on. And, um. You were saying you were so busy. I have been busy. It’s been a lot, right?

Jean: It has been.

Jean: And I don’t think we’re alone in that. A lot of people I talk to have, um, have been through a lot. Um, this has been. It feels like more has been packed into these past few months. And time has been going by so fast,

Alison: So fast.

Alison: I can’t even believe it. And that’s why when we had to read this book or wanted to read this. Well, no, it was a had, right? Because we always like to we always like to be prepared for the interview.

Jean: Sure.

Alison: But then as I read it, I actually couldn’t put it down because it’s how to be enough. Right.

Jean: Self acceptance for Self Critics and Perfectionists.

Alison: By Ellen Hendriksen. And I have to say, it’s it’s a lot going on in this book. There is a lot of tips and stories and I ideas about perfectionism, procrastination, values, how to move into self-forgiveness, self-awareness, stop listening to a voice in your head. And and it’s all very I felt it was all so relatable. My entire book is marked up.

Jean: I think I said that to you. I said, oh, she wrote a book for us, Alison. Yeah. And and even though we just said there’s so much in this great book, it’s not a clinical, dry book by any means.

Alison: It’s fun.

Jean: It is a fun. Inspiring and aha moment type book.

Alison: Yeah, I can’t wait to talk to her.

Jean: Yes!

Alison: Because she talks a lot about herself in the book and about her own perfectionism and procrastination and all those feelings. So it’s going to be exciting to actually meet her for me.

Jean: Yeah, yeah.

Alison: Are you ready?

Jean: I’m absolutely ready.

Alison: Here we go. Ellen Hendrickson.

Alison: Hi.

Ellen: Hi.

Jean: Hi, Ellen.

Ellen: How are you?

Alison: We’re very good. I’m so happy to talk to you.

Ellen: Me? I’m excited to talk to you. I’m so impressed that you’re in the same room. I love that you record literally together. That’s fantastic.

Alison: We hang out a lot.

Ellen: I love it.

Jean: People say that, Ellen, that when we come together, they’re always like, oh, look at you two together.

Ellen: And yeah, I was expecting two different screens, but here you are. I love it.

Alison: You always seem to dress alike.

Ellen: Well, I clearly didn’t get the memo because I’m in i’m in a different color. That’s okay.

Jean: That’s a great color on you.

Alison: I’m so happy to talk to you.

Ellen: Great. I’m happy to talk to you. Let’s talk.

Alison: Okay. So how to be enough? This was such an intense and yet wonderful read for me this book. First, I think…. Do you have children?

Ellen: I do, I have, uh, two boys, 14 and 17.

Alison: And they’re who you dedicated the book to.

Ellen: Yes, yes, that’s exactly right.

Alison: So I have two kids, and when I was reading the beginning of your book, I had anxiety come up.

Ellen: Oh, no. I’m sorry.

Alison: I know, no, it’s it’s fascinating. I had some anxiety come up that I was not a good enough mom because you lay out genetics, setting…

Ellen: Mhm.

Alison: And I thought that was fascinating that in a book about how to be enough…. I’m feeling like not enough already.

Ellen: Well hopefully I gave you some tools to stop feeling that way.

Alison: By the end, by the end everything is dog eared and it’s  a fascinating journey to feel like to go from that to this. Can you describe, can you describe a little bit of that, how we how we begin to feel like we need perfectionism in our own lives and then how we can move away from that?

Ellen: Yeah, absolutely. Um, do you want me to talk about sort of where perfectionism Comes from, like the origins. Sure, sure. Okay, well, here, let me let me do a 30,000 foot view and give folks a definition of perfect or like at least my working definition of perfectionism. And I find this actually kind of hilarious because there are several definitions in the research world out there. And I think it’s funny that people who do this for a living, you know, including myself, can’t agree on a perfect definition of perfectionism. So the one, the one that I like to use is that it’s a tendency to demand more of ourselves than the situation requires. And the reason I like that definition is because you can look at it two different ways. There’s two sides of that coin on the one side, please keep demanding of yourself more than the situation requires. That’s how we shoot for the stars. That’s how we hit home runs. That’s how we insert tortured metaphor here. That’s but that’s how we do a lot of good work. So yeah, don’t don’t stop doing that. And then also the Heart of that healthy kind of perfectionism is conscientiousness, which, according to researchers, is the number one personality trait for both objective and subjective success in life. So please keep doing that.

Ellen: But perfectionism, tendency to demand more of ourselves than the situation requires can also kind of tip over into being a referendum on our character. Where it goes wrong is where it tips over into how when our evaluation of our performance and I use performance very loosely, that could mean grades. That could mean how clean we keep our house. That could mean how good a parent was i today, could mean how much money we brought in this year. Lots of ways to measure performance. Did I eat clean today? Uh, that when we when we tip over into something called overvaluation, that’s when our evaluation of our performance, uh, kind of overgrows and becomes an evaluation of ourselves as a person. It becomes a referendum on our character. So that’s that’s where perfectionism can turn unhealthy. Okay. That’s my my 30,000 foot view. Uh, in terms of where it comes from, you’re absolutely right. You mentioned genetics. So the cutting edge of science is looking like it’s going to tell us that there are there’s definitely a genetic element to perfectionism. It also can come from the, you know, the way we were raised. So our early childhood experiences. And I want to say that you can come out of any family perfectionistic. There’s nothing, you know, we’re not restricted to a certain type of family.

Ellen: But, uh, the sort of OG perfectionism researchers Gordon Flett and Paul Hewitt tell us that there are four types of families that we are where we are more likely to come out perfectionistic, and that is in families where we just we just get perfectionism modeled for us. There’s high standards, high pressure. A second type is where love is contingent upon performance. That love and pride kind of get confused, and we get lots of attention and and positive regard when we deliver, when we perform, and we end up mistaking that for love. Then there are the families where they’re sort of like helicopter or snowplow. Uh, it’s the families that remind me sort of, of the character of Marlin in Finding Nemo, where he says, I’m never going to let anything happen to you. And then Dory comes up and says, but then nothing will ever happen to him. So. Exactly. And then finally, the fourth type of family is sort of a a chaotic, uh, dramatic, erratic family where then kids will double down on performance in order to have a sense of control. Understandably, they may sort of unconsciously or unconsciously think, well, you know, I can’t control dad’s drinking, but I can control my grades or I can’t control, you know, mom’s mood swings and temper….

Ellen: But I can be bubbly and the most popular person in school. So it comes from genetics families. But I find perfectionism to be particularly fascinating because it also comes from all around us. It comes from the environment. It’s conferred from our surroundings, and every human reacts to the situations we’re put in. And so when we’re put in an environment that is has low tolerance of mistakes, like mistakes are not allowed, and if we make a mistake, we are harshly criticized and punished. Of course, we’re going to respond with some perfectionism. So this is called a perfectionistic climate. The researcher Andrew Hill coined this term and when he first coined the term, he sort of meant like the highest levels of women’s gymnastics, like climates like that. But honestly, I think all of 2025, all of American culture or Western culture has sort of become a perfectionistic climate. Social media is certainly a perfectionistic climate. So when we are put in a culture that expects us to perform and achieve and consume to ever higher levels just to be sufficient as a person, of course we’re going to respond by not feeling good enough. So yeah, genetics, family, but also just the water we swim in. But yes, that was a very long answer.

Jean: that was great because I think for most of us we can check all of them off.

Alison: Yeah.

Jean: A little bit of each, you know, and, um.

Alison: It’s so true.

Jean: Yeah. So I love in the beginning of your book, you compare, um, Mister Rogers, fred Rogers to uh, Walt Disney.

Ellen: I loved writing that. That was so fun.

Jean: I thought that was so clever. Can you talk about that with our listeners?

Ellen: Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, Walt Disney and Fred Rogers, they’re they’re both titans of children’s entertainment. They’re, you know, what they created is both beloved and immortal. And they actually had remarkably similar personalities. They both had really high standards. They were both quite intense. They both had really strong work ethics. They both focused on the details, but they really lived those traits and values very differently. So just for example, let’s look at how they approached mistakes. So in the book, like I tell the story of Mister Rogers, you know, there was a show where he, as usual, was changing from his blazer to his cardigan, and then as he was singing the song and the cameras were rolling, he realized that he was one button off like that he had buttoned his sweater wrong, and everybody on the crew, knowing his standards, expected him to call cut and to Refilm, but instead he just rebuttons the sweater, and he remarks to the camera that, you know, mistakes happen and they can be corrected. And by contrast, I tell the story of Walt Disney’s micromanagement of the making of Snow White, where he, you know, he can’t bring himself to trust this world class team of artists that he’s hired, and he makes them redo tiny details like the Queen’s eyebrows are too extreme, Grumpy’s finger is too big. And at the premiere, he even tells a reporter, I wish I could yank it back and do it all over again. So, you know, Disney’s high standards were, like, rigidly focused on avoiding mistakes, but Mr. Rogers flexibly folded mistakes into his high standard, so I thought that was a really interesting foil, a combination that these folks are the same and extremely different.

Alison: Right? Right. And I think what’s interesting too is you, you you go back to Mr. Rogers at the end. And that was just so sweet. I don’t want to give it away because I want people to book, but it’s the ending is so sweet when the interviewer comes to interview him.

Ellen: Mhm.

Alison: Um, I think what was interesting to me is um,  procrastination.

Ellen: Oh yeah.

Alison: And perfectionism, because they sound like they would not be mixing.

Ellen: Right.

Alison: Like, you know, can you, can you, because that part I was like, wow, that is so true. Can you talk a little bit about that for us?

Ellen: Yeah. For sure. Yeah, that is quite counterintuitive, that procrastination and perfectionism go together because I would say most of us think that procrastination is a time management problem. But the the-  I’m a big nerd, so, you know, the papers that I read and the research that I looked at really showed that it’s more of an emotion regulation problem and perfectionism drives procrastination because aversive tasks, like things we just don’t want to do, require quite a bit of self-regulation. Like we have to sort of psych ourselves up to, to focus. We have to, uh, be we don’t have to be ready, but, um, it takes a lot of self-regulation to, to go tackle something that’s like yucky or boring or tedious, and self-regulation deteriorates under emotional distress. So, when we feel distressed and overwhelmed and paralyzed because our standards are super high and unrealistic and unforgiving. Like, for instance, we might feel like we have to do the whole task in one go, or we have to feel, we feel like we have to, um, complete it without struggling or do overs, and we have to, like our first draft has to be our final draft. Procrastination steps in as a coping mechanism because it it’s a double whammy because it allows us to both avoid the task that’s making us feel bad and immediately, immediately replace it with something that makes us feel better. So wow, not only do I not have to, for me, like, write my newsletter this week, I can scroll TikTok and look at look at dog videos. This is great. So it’s it. Yeah. You’re to go full circle, uh, counterintuitively, yeah, we would think that people with perfectionism would be focused and all in and striving hard every minute. But really, uh, perfect Procrastination creeps in quite a bit.

Alison: Then how did you finish this book?

Ellen: Yeah. Yeah I that’s a that’s a great question. Yeah. No I think finally I think it is it is…. Well actually we could get into this. Um, so it, I valued what I was doing enough that that the meaning and the purpose and honestly, the fun I do enjoy writing, overrode those initial negative emotions of feeling overwhelmed or paralyzed. And honestly, I broke it down into little teeny tiny steps. And that, that is that is a classic trick. But I think it bears repeating that if we’re feeling overwhelmed, you know, break it down into little teeny tiny steps and nobody has to know how small your steps are. I tell the story in the book. I was working with the banana guy, this lovely client who had diabetes, and he was trying to motivate himself to get to the gym. And so we broke it down into little teeny tiny steps. And his first step was peel a banana. It wasn’t even eat the banana, it was peel the banana. And this sent him onto, you know, a cascade of steps of peel the banana, eat the banana, like, because that would fuel his workout. You find car keys, you know. Et cetera. Et cetera. Et cetera. And it was, the trick is to break things down into steps that are so small you feel no resistance. So for me, with writing, if I told myself, okay, well, I’m going to break it down into like day by day, but like, write for eight hours is still super overwhelming. And so, you know, if I break it down into, okay, write for 15 minutes, I can do that, that’s fine. And then then oftentimes the dirty little secret is that once you get started, usually momentum keeps you going. Not always, but you know, and then you can just break it down again. Uh, and so break it down until you feel no resistance.

Alison: That’s great. Yeah.

Jean: That is great. Um, I was looking at my notes, trying to see the lady’s, your client, maybe you changed her name?

Ellen: I definitely changed her name. Yeah.

Jean: I love that you shared this story. I could so relate because the same thing sort of happened to me was she was caretaking for her mom… Um, and she went on vacation.

Alison: Yeah.

Ellen: Mhm.

Jean: Right. And she couldn’t forgive herself.

Ellen: Mhm.

Jean: Right. She was like, she had this high standard, right, coupled with you know… And you give so many, by the way Ellen your examples are great…

Alison: Are so great.

Ellen: Like they’re they’re from real life. These are real people and and I, I am of a firm belief that if one person has experienced something, probably a thousand people have experienced the same thing. So I find that in the very specific individual stories is really a universal lesson.

Jean: Right, right. Yeah. And this particular woman really had a hard time letting go that she made a mistake. And the the chapter you write about, I think it’s human’s fail… Like we’re, just,we do– we’re going to happen, and you say something like, just expect it, because we do fail… Right, right.

Ellen: And yeah, I mean it’s it’s very messy.

Jean: Yeah.

Ellen: Human for sure. Um, yeah. The. Yeah. The woman you talk about.  Was caretaking for her, uh, ill mother, and everybody pressured her to take a break. She was all in on caretaking, and perfectionism tends to be sort of all or nothing. And she was definitely in all mode. And, uh, so even her mother, you know, said, go take a vacation. And so she, she went away with her boyfriend. And then things went wrong at, at home. And her mother was kind of never the same. Like she had had an allergic reaction to a new medication. And yeah, my client was ten years later, or 15 years later, was still struggling with forgiving herself. And and so we yeah, we worked a lot on, um, making room for mistakes, but also just self-compassion. So the those of us who have a streak of perfectionism are often quite hard on ourselves, you know, for sometimes for years and years and years. And so that’s because self-compassion, uh, consists of, you know, being kind to ourselves, to being mindful of our emotions and, you know, in the moment and our, our perfectionistic brains are sort of reverse threaded for, for, for both of these things. So, um, it can be hard and can feel wrong to be kind to ourselves or to, um, pay attention or not even– okay, to allow ourselves to have the self-critical thoughts that we’re kind of wired for.

Ellen: Like, just like, you know, some brains are more optimistic or pessimistic or some brains are more introverted or extroverted. You know, those of us with some perfectionism are just wired to be a little more self-critical. But that doesn’t mean we have to take those self-critical thoughts seriously or literally. Like just because we think it. It’s like that bumper sticker like, don’t believe everything you think. And so, um, so learning to be mindful of thoughts and saying, hey, I oh, this is what my brain does. Oh, this is how I’m wired. Oh, this is how I talk to myself when things like this happen, you know, can definitely be counterintuitive but is extremely useful. So I mean, I’ll use myself as an example. Actually, this is okay. I will predict that after, you know, after I get off any kind of interview, anything involving a microphone, anything that involves me hitting send and like my work goes out into the world, I, my brain just starts to go and it’s like, ah, why did I say it that way? Like I said, too much or like, oh, I didn’t say enough or like, oh, I think, I think I like monopolize that.

Ellen: Like, I like my brain just keeps starts going. I think a lot of us can probably relate to that in, in different scenarios. And so I have, uh, worked hard to try to chalk that up to just that’s, that’s how my brain works. Like, this is what happens. It’s just part of the script, like, just kind of like when you go to a restaurant, there’s a script, like you are seated by the hostess and you’re given a menu and you, you know, you order your food and it comes and you eat and then you pay and then you leave. Like, that’s just the script that happened. So for me, I do something involving a microphone. And I know we have a lovely conversation. And then I turn it off and then I start to criticize myself. It’s just what happens. And so I don’t have to take it seriously. I can treat it like I treat the music at a coffee shop or the the Muzak at the grocery store. It’s there. I can hear it. It’s not going away. But I don’t have to, like, sing along. Like, I don’t have to believe the lyrics. Literally. So that’s that’s been helpful for me in terms of self-compassion.

Alison: So much like what you just described, you should just hang out with us because we are like, oh, the thing I like, I’ll say, Jean, remember when we talked about this thing and I said that other thing? What? I didn’t mean it that way. Did it sound like this? And then also in your book, you talk about and this is when I like had to reread it many time, you talk about if someone says to me, hey, can you, uh, pick up XY for me at this time, I feel I have to say yes.

Ellen: Mhm mhm.

Alison: Otherwise, my self-worth is really diminished.

Ellen: Sure.

Alison: That’s like the fact that you brought that up. It’s just very powerful. Don’t– like, like what do you do? Like can you give our listeners ideas about that?

Ellen: Yeah. Yeah I think I think what you’re referring to is that, that people with perfectionism, uh, love rules. So. Yeah. And and so it makes sense. You know, rules reduce uncertainty. Uncertainty drives anxiety. So rules reduce anxiety. Cool. I’ll take that. That sounds good to me. And so, you know, we want to know the rules so we can follow them. Uh, and I don’t know if you do this. I certainly do this. If there are no rules, then we make up personally demanding rules and then follow those. So like think about making up rules for training for A 5K or making up rules for healthy eating or, you know, whatever we’re trying to do. And, you know, please keep setting goals, please, you know, please keep doing that. That’s not necessarily bad. But when we make those rules rigid so we apply them no matter the situation. Like we try to follow our healthy eating plan even on Halloween. Uh, if we apply them as all or nothing, you know, we we can the, um, are the criteria for adequate is set at flawless right then, and so if we screw up, it renders us unacceptable, and you didn’t mention this, but if, like if we impose our rules on other people, then it can certainly get in the way of our relationships. So rules inherently are not bad. But when they get rigid all or nothing and we impose them on other people, then they can certainly get in the way. So, um, in the book I tell of a client who I love this quote, she said, “through a combination of God and my mother, I was taught to be generous.”

Alison: Right?

Ellen: But but that meant for her that if a neighbor asked her to babysit, if a, you know, unhoused person on the street asked her for money like she had to do it. So I think that gets into your comment about if somebody asks you for a favor, you feel like you have to. So for her, generosity was functioning as a rule, like it was something she had to do. But if we think about generosity as, and I’ll introduce a new term here, as a value, then there’s a difference between feeling like we have to do something and us choosing to do something. Like in the in the generosity example, you know, our generosity should be freely chosen. And the very spirit of generosity is is that giving, it’s not the it’s not having to to do something. So we can try to shift from asking ourselves, do I, do I have to do this like, am I, do I feel like I do I feel obliged or dutiful or coerced even? Or am I choosing to do this? And and even if it’s something that we do actually have to do, like pay our taxes or, you know, whatever, like then is there something in there that we can choose? Can we find an element of choice within our actions? Because there’s a big difference in terms of how we feel, rather between feeling again coerced, that we have to do this, versus I choose to do this right.

Jean: It’s like an empowerment, when you can actually realize, this is what I’m choosing versus feeling coerced

Alison: And just the idea of values too, like what is meaningful in my life? And how can I relate that to a situation which I love when you talk about that, I thought that was I thought that was great.

Jean: And yeah, and I think a lot of people, I’ll just speak for myself like, you feel guilty.

Ellen: Of course.

Jean: When you really don’t want to do something, but you feel like, oh, I’m, I’m the one that always shows up. I’m the one that always.

Ellen: Mhm.

Jean: brings dessert or the joy. Like uh you know, so I, I think well you say it in your B title on the book self-acceptance. Um and Becoming aware, I think Alison and I are both on a journey of becoming more aware of our conditioned way of being, and more coming from a place of authenticity.

Ellen: Mhm. Mhm.

Jean: Um, and there’s, it’s a little scary sometimes to change up the rules, like when you.

Ellen: Absolutely.  Yeah. If we think of ourselves as, uh, like a label, like I’m the caretaker or I’m like you said, I’m the one who always shows up. I’m the supermom. I’m  the smart one. Then it’s really hard not to be that. It’s really hard to to have to choose actions that don’t seem like they’re in line with that. But then what happens is that our labels, which might be, might be of our own choosing, but are usually imposed by either other people or a society or our gender, then then that it takes the element of choice out of it if we have to do things because of the label assigned to us, whereas if we follow a value, then again that that choice comes into play. So I’ll here, I’ll do a brief tangent on what a value is, because I feel like that’s a word that gets thrown around a lot but doesn’t often get like really defined. So this is um, the this I took this from Michael Touhig and Clarissa Ong, who wrote a wonderful book called The Anxious Perfectionist. And they describe a value as having four qualities. So one, a value is continuous. So you are never done living a value. It’s different than a goal because a goal you can check off on a list. So like making $1 million is not a value, but like wealth or financial security is, it’s you can always go, you know going to Boston is is a goal.

Ellen: But going east is the metaphorical value. Okay. So that’s one. Two is that your values are intrinsically meaningful, meaning you would care about it even if nobody else knew. So it’s it’s something that really you care about. It’s not something you’re performing for other people. Three is a value is under your control. It’s not contingent upon anyone else. So being loved is actually not a value, but being loving to others is. That’s something you can control. And then this gets into what we were talking about before, is that values are freely chosen. So values are never coercive or obligatory, and we freely choose to follow them and are even likely to tolerate some discomfort or inconvenience in order to follow our values. So an example that I give is that like a value of giving back might be why you’re willing to give up your Saturday morning to go volunteer to pick up trash on a beach or, you know, work at a soup kitchen rather than spending the day like relaxing at the beach or like making making soup yourself. So so that that sense of values being freely chosen is what really differentiates them from rules or from having to act in accordance with your label. So, um, if, if we and here… Okay, so and one more thing I realized this is a very long answer too, um, when we’re following our values, you know, if we as we switch from rules to values or labels to values, we might not actually do anything overtly differently on the surface, it may just be sort of driven by a different force underneath. So an example I like to give for that is, um, oftentimes we feel like we have to be a good friend. So that could be our label. I’m the good friend. Or that could be a rule. I have to be a good friend. Okay. If we’re operating that way, there are certain things I have to do. I have to remember their birthday. I have to ask them detailed questions about their life. I have to maybe surprise them with their favorite coffee order when we go for a walk. And so, you know, none of those things are bad, those are lovely, please keep doing those. But what gets in the way is that that have to, that sense of duty and obligation and coercion and that, you know, can make our friendships feel contingent or make them feel sort of like a people pleasing grind. So if we shift to a value of, say, being attentive or being supportive, and then we are freely choosing to run towards those values, we might still remember their birthday. We might still ask them detailed questions about their life, we might still surprise them about their favorite coffee order, but the quality of the experience changes and it feels like a choice rather than a should. And that makes all the difference.

Alison: That reminds me too,  first of all, that was great.

Jean: We love quality of experience.

Ellen: Yes.

Alison: And we love your long answers.

Ellen: Cool. I have more of them if you want them.

Jean: It’s so juicy.

Alison: Yeah, I loved your Mad Libs. Oh, I thought they were great. So can you, uh, can you talk about that, that those great Mad Libs that you have, because I think you also do it in your first book, right?

Ellen: Yeah, yeah. So the first book is about social anxiety and, um, social anxiety is, yeah, we’ll do we’ll do a quick tangent on social anxiety because I think that’s highly relatable, and perfectionism and social anxiety are, you know, maybe not twins but are definitely close cousins. Uh, or to mix my metaphors, the perfectionism is is sort of the beating heart of social anxiety. Uh, okay. Anyway, so, um, yeah, the Mad Libs, they’re for social anxiety. Is that people… It will become obvious to everyone that I am, you know, blank, so insert, uh, aspect of self here And they will judge and reject me for it, basically. So, uh, social anxiety that that aspect of self, the it will become obvious to everyone that I am blank and then they’ll judge and reject me, for it, usually falls into one of four categories. So it’s either our appearance so people will see that I’m, um, underdressed or ugly or, um, my nose is weird, something like that. Or the second category is the signs of anxiety itself. So people will notice that my hands are shaking.

Ellen: People will notice my voice is quavering. People will notice that I’m blushing and they’ll think I’m weird, or they’ll think I’m a pervert or whatever. Okay, um, the third is, um, is social skills. That’s right. I haven’t thought about this in a little while because I’ve been talking about perfectionism for so long. So the third is social skills. People will think that I am awkward people, it will become obvious that I have nothing to say. It will become clear that I’m boring and they’ll judge and reject me for it. And then the fourth category is sort of our overall character. So like, people will see that I’m a loser. People will see that I’m a failure, people will see I’m incompetent or incapable. And and so that’s that’s the Mad Libs of social anxiety. And it’s the it all boils down to we think there’s something wrong with us, that there’s an aspect of ourselves that will be judged, rejected or criticized by others. And so we work really hard to conceal it and avoid situations where it might be revealed.

Alison: And then in this book.

Ellen: Yes. Thank you for bringing us back.

Alison: So In this book, i love the way you’re like, um, I’m a I’m a very neat person, but sometimes I leave my socks on the floor.

Ellen: Yes, yes.

Alison: And or like, I’m, I’m, um, I’m very conscious of, uh, eating healthy. And sometimes I’ll eat a bag of Oreos or something.

Ellen: Exactly.

Alison: But, you know, like, like that, and that felt so freeing to me.

Ellen: Yeah, it moves us from either or, again, those of us with perfectionism are often kind of all or nothing. And so here we, when we moved to both and, with the Mad Libs, we get to retain our overall idea of ourself as a good person. But to make room for the inevitable mistakes and struggles and do overs of life. So yeah, I um. Okay, and the reason I think that’s important the making room for mistakes, making room for errors is because, that’s different than lower your standards. Because I feel like the the the traditional advice for people with perfectionism is, you know, you really have to lower your standards or like, you know, like that’s good enough. And I understand the, the, the well-meaning part of that advice. And if you’ve ever told someone with perfectionism to lower their standards, they will bristle. They will not, that is not going to go over well because, of that overlap between, you know, evaluating performance and evaluating ourselves. If we are kind of stuck in that over evaluation, suggesting that we settle for subpar or mediocre performance means that we’re subpar or mediocre, we’re not going to do that. Forget it. So allowing ourselves to to do some both. And yeah, of I’m a diligent person who sometimes slacks off. I’m a great parent who sometimes loses my temper. I’ve arrived, I’ve made it, and I’m still seeking. We can again retain that that fundamental good overall idea of ourself and make some room for mistakes.

Alison: Yeah, I love that.

Jean: It reminds me of your story in your book about the doctor who misdiagnosed a child.

Ellen: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Jean: And you, Ellen, you talk about giving that space between. What did you say? You say like you’re-  i did something, okay? I didn’t do this, but I’m not that, like, don’t make it personal just because I made a mistake.

Ellen: Ah, yes yes yes yes.

Jean: I am not the Mistake.

Ellen: Right, right, right. Yeah. There’s a there’s a big difference between saying like, I made that mistake versus I made that mistake. Like when the emphasis is on us, when we turn our spotlight, you know, towards ourselves, we’re going to feel more shame or guilt or just general sort of negative emotions. People with perfectionism tend to be a little bit shame prone. It doesn’t mean that shame is, I don’t want to say not real, i don’t want to gaslight anybody, but there it’s that’s just how we’re wired. We’re just wired to sometimes feel a little bit more shame than the typical person. And so that because we tend to say “I” made that mistake as opposed to the I made that mistake and turn our spotlight towards the performance. So yes, the the story you’re referring to is, um, I had a client who was a pediatrician, and she had been a pediatrician for many years, storied career, I think 25 years, and by all accounts was excellent at her job. And she came into session one day and was just beside herself and was saying things like, maybe I should retire early, maybe I should get my brain examined. I think I’m slipping because she had misdiagnosed a little girl and said, you know, I think this is just constipation. But she ended up having appendicitis and had to go to the emergency room. She was fine. Everything was okay. But again, my client was just just like being so hard on herself. And so we talked about, okay, over the course of a 25 year career, how many misdiagnoses are you going to make? The answer can’t be zero.

Ellen: And just making room for even just like 1%, half a percent is so much that gives you so much more wiggle room than zero. Like, yeah, even if the answer is teeny tiny, as long as it’s not zero, that’s really what matters. So, you know, and we can apply that to anything. How many times am I going to have an awkward silence? Like how many awkward silences will I have on a first date? The answer can’t be zero. How many times will I say, um while recording a podcast? The answer can’t be zero. Uh, how many B’s am I going to get? Or C’s am I going to get over the course of my academic career? Answer can’t be zero. And that creates just a little bit of wiggle room for the inevitable struggles of life and being human. And with the going back to the pediatrician, I would argue we shouldn’t tell her to lower her standards. That would that would not be appropriate, I think. So not only would it not go over well, but we don’t want to say like, oh, you know, it’s your diagnoses are good enough. So yeah, no, you wouldn’t want to tell, you know, airline pilot or a surgeon, you know, you’re not going to say good enough, but making room for like inevitable mistakes that can often be corrected is a much better way to go.

Jean: I mean, that’s so yeah, like some of these professions, the two we just, you know, a doctor and an airline pilot.

Alison: Yeah.

Jean: I mean that’s that’s high.

Ellen: Yeah. You can’t lower your standards, you know.

Alison: No. Right. You can’t. Can you tell me? You. You know, you’re very honest about how you’re a perfectionist. And so what was the hardest thing for you to change about yourself or work through after doing this book? Like. Or was it all just like, whew, easy.

Ellen: Oh I wish. Uh, yeah, I think. Okay. Um, my yeah, I’m a pretty classic perfectionistic person. I was definitely holding that mindset of my self-evaluation. My self-worth is overly dependent on meeting those personally demanding standards I held for myself. And so throughout my life, I was definitely conflating what I did with who I was. And that changed as like as I aged and what is important in what stage of life changed. So for example, in high school I really overidentified with my grades in college and as a young adult, the focus is on social behavior, and that happens to be, I think, when my social anxiety was at its highest because I’m like, oh, I can’t, you know, I can’t make social mistakes. I have to be cool. I have to be funny. There was no room for social error when I was launching my career. I was overly focused on productivity. Like, did I get everything on the list done? And so, you know, that’s already not great. But I was also doing three more things that I think made my life harder. One was we talked about this before, that my only two options were all or nothing. So if I got straight A’s except for one 87, like it disqualified all those other A’s and like put me at nothing or like in my, in my productivity like era… Um, if even if I got, you know, a bunch of things done on my to do list, but 1 or 2 got left undone, it rendered the whole day not good enough. So that’s one thing. The second thing that was making my life harder was that I would focus on flaws and details.

Ellen: So it’s the equivalent of focusing on the one frowning face in the sea of smiles, even if everything else goes well. Like the detail of what went wrong is what I would focus on afterwards. And that third eye was really hard on myself, you know. I did set that standard for adequate at flawless. And so when I inevitably fell short of my personally demanding standards, you know, not because I was inadequate or incapable, but because I’m a person like I, um, I was really hard on myself. And the worst part is that if I pulled out all the stops and somehow, like, actually met my personally demanding standards, I would decide that those standards were insufficiently demanding in the first place and move the goalposts. So don’t do any of those things. Um, so I think the heart of most of it was the over evaluation was confusing what I do with who I am and so trying to separate those out. Yeah, make some room for mistakes. Uh, focus on a bigger picture was really hard. But ultimately I feel like is what was most helpful to me. Am I still perfectionistic? Yes, of course, but I feel like I am the more adaptive kind of perfectionism now. I like to think I’m more of the Mister Rogers perfectionism than the Walt Disney perfectionism. Do I still have my moments and, you know, like, sometimes I’m really hard on myself. Or sometimes I, uh, perseverate over a mistake I made, of course. But I think ironically, that’s that’s part of how this works. I am an imperfect perfectionist.

Alison: Yeah, a work in progress.

Ellen: Absolutely. And always will be. As as will be all. Yeah.

Jean: And thank goodness we have self-acceptance. And this book.

Alison: Is so great.

Jean: has So many great tools.  I mean, honestly, Ellen, we could spend so much time talking with you. Um, going over every chapter, you really get in deep, uh, about self-criticism and perfectionism. But, um, anyway, I hope we touched on some real juicy favorite parts, and I, um, so we’re going to wrap up, right?

Ellen: Sure. I’m delighted you liked it. That’s wonderful.

Alison: Loved it.

Jean: Loved it. Yes. So consider yourself. You got an A plus.

Ellen: Yeah.

Ellen: My my the my inner grade grubber. My past, past life grade grubber. Really appreciate that. Thank you.

Alison: Yeah. So, um, we are wondering what you think inside wink means?

Ellen: Yeah. Of course I thought I like that you asked this because. Okay, I don’t remember the name of the game, but there’s a there’s a game where, like you don’t we make up definitions of words…. I think it’s called balderdash. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it reminded me of that. So I was like, oh, I get to play a game. Um, okay. So inside wink uh, makes me think of, uh, sort of like a, like a self-assured wink where we wink to communicate to somebody else, like, hey, I got this or or, hey, let me handle this. But I think when you add inside to it, it feels like we’re, you know, doing that to ourselves. Like, I got this. Let me handle it. It feels like self-assurance or like confidence in one’s own abilities to stay on brand. I feel like it’s a cousin to self-acceptance. So that’s that is my balderdash definition of inside wink.

Alison: I love that, and it could mean you’re enough.

Ellen: Yeah. That’s true. Thank you. Yeah, I yes, what you said.

Alison: I love that. That’s perfect. That’s a perfect definition I love that.

Ellen: Fantastic.

Jean: Great. Okay. And for the final question, which is.

Ellen: Most important, yes.

Jean: Hundred thousand dollars is, um, cake pie or ice cream? Which do you prefer.

Ellen: Sure. I thought I actually thought about this for an inordinately long amount of time. So. So my the answer that I finally settled on was all three, but never together. So my family thinks I’m crazy because I have just never liked alamode. Uh, like, I love pie, you know? Love a good piece of cake, but I just do not want ice cream on top. That is, I never, never shall they meet. So call me a purist. Call me a perfectionist. But, uh, all three, but never together.

Alison: I. I think you might be an original.

Ellen: Okay. Yeah,

Jean:  I love that you said that.

Ellen: Oh, there we go.

Alison: So we’ll get three dishes when you come over.

Ellen: That’s absolutely. That sounds good to me.

Jean: And we’ll put them on opposite sides of the table.

Alison: That’s right.  Thank you so much for talking to us. You really are just so much fun and interesting.

Jean: yes. Thank you.

Ellen: Oh,  You are both delightful. Thank you so much for having me on and asking such great questions.

Alison: And congratulations,  I’m giving this as Christmas gifts.

Jean: Yes.

Ellen: Oh, wow.

Jean: Yeah…I was telling my friend,  Renee about this book, and she said, Jean, can you send me one? And I said, I have an extra copy.,

Ellen: Phenomenal.

Alison: Thank you.

Ellen: Oh. Thank you. That warms my heart.

Alison: And have a great day.

Ellen: You too. Take care. Thanks for having me on.

Alison: Bye.

Jean: Bye.

Alison: Oh my goodness. Right?

Jean: She hit it out of the park.

Alison: Yeah. And she. First of all, I love how. Because when you read the book, you think, oh, this woman is really got it together. And then she’s so honest in the book about how sometimes she doesn’t and her personality is so authentic and out there, she’s like, oh wait, let me get that. You know, I love that when people are just human and not and not like all polishy.

Jean: No, no no, no, she she was warm… And as you can hear from the interview, warm and welcoming and and funny. And I think she just exudes like this… Um, it’s all okay… Just accept it, you know? And, uh, what a great doctor to sit with her and go over your.

Alison: I should have said that, doctor Ellen Hendriksen. That’s true. Exactly.

Jean: Um, yeah.

Alison: she’s great. And I felt too like for me, this book, um, she does a whole thing about how to move things from your head, thought to your heart, and to let go of your rules and, um.

Jean: Rewriting your script.

Alison: Right.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: Right.

Jean: Um.

Alison: Which is something you and I talk about a lot.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: Just in our friendship.

Jean: Right. And reframing and, uh, a way to look at things. So this is this was this was one of my favorite books.

Alison: It’s excellent. It’s an excellent book. So we’re going to tell you you are enough. But I know you don’t believe us. So read the book, How to Be Enough, by Doctor Ellen Hendriksen.

Jean: Exactly.

Alison: I think that’s.

Jean: Beautiful. You nailed it. It was perfect, Allison.

Alison: Thank you, thank you. Jeannie, have a great day.

Jean: bye.

Alison : Hello, Jean.

Jean : Hi, Alison.

Alison : Here we are.

Jean : We’re back in the saddle.

Alison : That’s right. We’re back in the closet.

Jean : We’re back in ,

Alison : Which is an interesting. Oh, our windscreen keeps falling. I don’t think we can even use it. We’ll just be. It’ll be a nude microphone.

Jean : Okay, I love that. Actually. It looks very nice.

Alison : It does, doesn’t it? Yeah. With a little blue light. Um, uh, today’s going to be fun because we’re talking to people from PFLAG.

Jean : Right. And this is an organization that you were introduced to by whom?

Alison : By myself. I had just always heard of them. And, um, I have a trans, non-binary child. And so I decided I want to just see what’s there, uh, to get involved in and to see for outreach for myself and other people because.

Jean : And to support.

Alison : Right.. It’s quite a transition. Do you know quite a…. Something to take on as a parent. Do you know? And I want to support my child.

Jean : Yes. And so that is so you Alison. I know that, you know, that is how you move in the world. You are definitely someone that seeks to support those that you love. And and it didn’t surprise me at all when you shared with me that you were joining PFLAG, which is which stands for parents, family and Friends of Lesbians and Gays plus.

Alison : Right. And they they they are just an incredibly wonderful organization. The people are so kind. I’ve actually become friends with the people that were going to be talking to today. We’re going to be talking to Corey Berry. Right. And Farrah and I have to say, you’re going to you’re going to can absolutely love them. They they’re so kind and, um, funny and warm and are doing really good work, you know, really good work in the world, I think, right now. So.

Jean : Well, your mission. The mission of PFLAG is leading with love. So, uh.

Alison : That’s perfect.

Jean : That’s you.

Alison : That’s that’s you too.

Jean : So this is going to be great.

Alison : Yeah. Here we go.

Jean : Okay.

Alison : We’re so happy. So, Farrah and Corey, this is Jean.

Farrah: Hi, Jean. It’s so nice to meet you.

Jean : So great to meet you. So  i feel like I know both of you just what Allison has shared, but this is really lovely, so.

Farrah: Yay. Yes. Likewise. Yes.

Alison : You know, we’re we’re, um, we do a little introduction and we talked a little bit about PFLAG, but we would love to just get to know you guys a little bit better and sort of the mission of PFLAG because I think, um, people are always looking, especially nowadays, for support.  you know, so if you could just tell us a little bit like, um, maybe Corey, uh, you you’re both volunteers.

Corey: Yes that’s correct.

Alison : And, Corey, what what do you do for PFLAG? And then what do you do, like, in real life when you’re not, like a superhero?

Corey: Oh, yeah, well, for PFLAG, uh, so my, like you mentioned, I am a volunteer, and, um, my role there is the advocacy co-chair, and DEI officer. So I promote through advocacy. I, I work on different things to bring education to the PFLAG community. And, um, like I said, also the Dei officer. So, um, what I’ve been doing, I’ve been in this role for about a little about a year now, I think. So, uh, what I’ve been doing is promoting, you know, education, support, advocacy because that’s those are the three pillars of PFLAG. And so a lot of times it’s just sitting with someone. It could be a family, it could be a parent, it could be, um, a friend of someone that’s gay or, you know, like like a family member that is a friend of someone that’s either gay or non nonbinary questioning, etc.. So really it’s it’s a safe space for people to talk about their concerns or their fears. So that’s what I do through advocacy. But again, those are just titles really. Um, it’s just to identify who’s who within PFLAG. But it goes beyond that because our roles stretch. There’s really no limit to the co-chair of advocacy or the Dei officer. I’ve done so many things just by talking to others within PFLAG and within the community. So, um, that’s my role  within P-flag.

Alison : And in real life. What are you.

Alison : Yeah. Well, I’m Corey, uh, you know, and, um, I, I’m one of those people that, um, you know, we all, I think, um, this country, especially this country, and I think just based on how we were raised and what we’ve been taught, you know, you go to school, you go to college, you get a job, you get a title, you you make money and this and that. So yeah, I, I am working in education. I work in admissions at USC, University of Southern California. So that’s what I do for my job. Um, and in that job it goes beyond my title of assistant manager of admissions, I mentor, I coach, I support, I listen, I educate, so I don’t just lean on that title. Um, and and people know me for more than just that. So, um, as far as who I am, I like to just say, you know what? I’m Corey, but I do a lot more, you know, um, than just work. It’s it’s, you know, showing who I am, showing up every day for people, caring for people, being kind and supporting people in whatever way I can. So, you know, that’s the best way I can say who I am.

Alison : I love that.

Jean : Hi, I’m Corey and I’m an angel.  THANK YOU.

Farrah:  exactly. I’m Corey, and I’m directly from heaven. Yeah, exactly.

Alison : And tell us a little bit about you and your roles.

Farrah: Sure, so I’m Farrah. Uh, I’m the president of P-flag LA. Um, I’m going to share my pronouns..and I’m going to share my pronouns as well, they are  are she/ her as well. Um, and yes, I started a little later than Corey even… Our board is pretty new. Um, we had a big shift this last year. Um, but it’s been very exciting. We’ve been gaining all these great people and, uh, it’s been, uh, for me, it’s really been just like, we have people who are finding, you know, these, these great people for these specific positions. And it’s just been wonderful to, um, have all this new energy and people who really want to work for the cause of, you know, expanding spaces for the queer community and the people who love them, um, and really acting as a bridge to people who maybe, like, I don’t really know much about the LGBTQ plus community. Like, I have some questions and, you know, questions maybe people are afraid to ask. Like they’re just not sure. And to be able to have a group of people who’s like, hey, come on in. We’re here for it all. Like no questions off the table. Just ask, you know, um, has been, um, very inspiring. And it’s so and also all these people that were getting Corey, I mean, I, I think I can speak for us both that they’re just amazing humans.

Farrah: Um, just really want to, uh, contribute to the world, give back to the world. Um, and I just, I’m always, i feel so, like, tickled pink to be able to to, like, sort of lead this organization, help, you know, kind of shepherd and guide people. And really, uh, I was talking to someone earlier today where I was like, it’s not about leading people. It’s really about helping people do the best they can do, um, with their capabilities and skill set, like just really maximizing our people, but also paying attention to their capacity. Like, you don’t want to drain people either. You want to make sure that they have the tools they need to do the best work they can do for our shared mission. Um, and so that’s really. Yeah, that’s what I love doing right now. And I’m so thrilled to be able to be part of this, um, and just really uplift everyone who’s who’s doing the work and excited to do the work. Like, we’re all excited together. It’s like a really lovely little, you know, little organization right now.

Jean : I think that’s so important that the people involved have a passion and a and feel a sense of coherency within the organization.

Farrah: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and so  we are all volunteers. Yes. So it’s really a roll up your sleeves. And, you know, it is like Corey was saying, we do so many, we wear so many different hats. We do so many different things. Um, but it is all in the service of like, hey, this is a program or event coming up. Like, you know who can help here? What can we do? Um, it it very much is like we do this together, you know? Yeah. And like, people contribute how they can write, like, um, and we appreciate whatever, you know, however they can contribute. Maybe they make the flyers, or maybe they’re like the people boots on the ground kind of thing or what have you, but it’s really making sure, um, everybody, you know, everybody’s pitching in when they can, how they can, and everybody’s acknowledged like, that’s that’s what I, um. Yeah, that’s that’s how we’re running.

Alison : And what do you have uh, because that’s a lot of work you guys are both putting in, and have like a job?

Farrah: So I do not have a job job. I’ve been a stay at home mom. Um, but prior to that,

Alison : That’s a Job!

Farrah:  It’s true. It’s a job.  Oh, my gosh, the unpaid job.  Oh, my God, I know that’s a whole nother conversation, ladies. My goodness. Um, and they’re teenagers right now, so I’m in a whole realm of teenagerdom.  Prior to that, I was very much, uh, in the arts, i did, um, I was in fashion design for a long time, um, designed for, like, BZBG, Tommy Bahama, Forever 21, back in the day. Um, and then I also did website design, um, that, uh, for, for a while and then now…. Yeah, now I’m just I’m excited to be able to contribute. I have the time, you know, kind of. Yes, we all do. I make the time, I should say. Um, and I’m excited to be able to contribute to, um, this organization. That’s just a wonderful you know, I think it’s been around for like 50 years, p-flag itself. So it’s just it’s it’s it’s a stalwart stalwart in the, you know, realm of allyship. And I think it’s just such an important organization to to really be a part of in this time.

Alison : Why do you guys think this is important? Why is this work important? Like, why are you why are you putting your time and energy into PFLAG?

Farrah: Well, I think particularly in this moment in time, a lot of LGBTQ+ individuals are kind of under fire. You know, um, there’s, um. And I think that it still remains a lot of LGBTQ+ individuals remain, um, kind of mysteries to, I think, general public. And I think, unfortunately, when something is a mystery, it can be thought of as negative. And so I think right now especially, it’s important to, you know, as one of our pillars is education. It’s important to educate people, um, about, um, these LGBTQ+ experiences that may not be, you know, the the general, in the general, you know, mindset or ether or culture. Um, and, and really show that it’s, it’s a part of the human experience. It may not be your personal lived experience, but it is a human experience, um, and deserves the same level of dignity and, um, attention and acknowledgement, uh, as any any other human, basically.

Alison : How did you get involved? Uh, I know Farrah. You have a child like I do. And, Corey, how did you get involved in PFLAG? Like, what was your impetus?

Corey: Well, you know, it was, uh, there was a time, you know, at my job that I work that I talked about at USC, where I was trying to find some new programming for our orientations, for our new incoming students. I work at a dental school, so I help dental school students once they get into the program, transition and all that. And so we acclimate them to the school, introduce them to things that they need to know as far as working with patients. So in that regard, I wanted to find something to educate them on with regard to, you know, maybe if you have never treated a patient or been around a patient that was transgender, for example, I wanted to find an organization that taught that to our students. So I googled and found PFLAG. So that’s how I initially became involved with PFLAG, inviting them to our orientations to talk to our new students, to orient them. You know, about patient care. That’s initially what it was about. Then I got to know them. They got to know me, and then the rest is history. I’m here, you know, they had this board position open and I decided to apply. And, um, you know, because I part of your question was, what got me here also is just, I go where I’m led. You know, if if I don’t question it anymore like I used to, because I just trust that I’m where I’m supposed to be and when I’m supposed to be there. And that Google search that day turned into friendships, um, mentorships, you know, um, you know, um, just just helping people, sharing, being generous to people, you know, in different ways outside of my job, because I don’t like to think of myself as a title. Like, like like I mentioned before, I like to think of myself as somebody who wants to just give as much as I can in different ways, you know? So that’s, that’s the that was how I began.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : I thinks that’s so great. It’s like, don’t box me in. Right. We all – there’s, we’re so multi faceted and we all have, um, you know, our superpowers, you know, whatever. If it’s talking or organizing or whatever it is. Um, but, wow, you two are… So no wonder you both came from heaven. And two angels met each other and said, what do you feel that P-flag caters more to the individual… Like like, uh, the homosexual or the transgender? Or do you feel it caters more to the the family member?

Farrah: You know, I think it’s both like I think we try and do both. Um, I think it started as family member, like back in the 70s. It was supposed to be, you know, kind of family, friends, etc. but I think, you know, as it’s grown over the decades, I think it, you know, we realize that we need to support both. It’s a it’s a whole, you know, the family, the friends, your whole environment is kind of an organism.

Jean :  Exactly. And you can’t focus just one one…

Farrah:  Exactly. You need to kind of work with every, you know, work with everyone. And we’re we’re all on the journey. You know, I mean, the way I see it is, my child is on their own journey, and I’m on a journey that’s parallel to them. And I need support on my journey, too, right? Like, you can’t the whole, like, put your own face mask on before helping the other kind of thing. Like, I can’t just do it blindly and I’m so, you know, pleased to have a support, you know, system to help me along the way when I stumble or when I, you know, just there’s so many missteps. Of course, I know, um, one of our recent friends on, on our podcast that we just launched. Uh, but he was saying, you know, I’m an imperfect ally. And I think I think that perfectly describes it, frankly. We are allies, but we are imperfect. We are human. So we need our own support that we can provide. But but so that we can provide supports for our loved ones, for the people on their journey. Yeah.

Corey: Yeah. And it’s definitely community. I mean, yeah, the community is so far it’s it’s reaching and, um, it extends to whoever wants to, you know, whoever needs a hug, whoever needs a ear to listen to them, whoever needs that validation, um, whoever feels that they don’t belong, you know what I’m saying? So I think we can find that when we just walk outside our door. Yeah. Um, they might not know anything about PFLAG, but, um, they’ll be on, you know, they have those same concerns and those same wants. Everybody wants to be validated. Everybody wants to be seen, heard, you know, listen to and not just talk. Like not just saying, okay, you have to do this or you have to do that. It’s, it’s it’s about listening and really hearing, uh, who they are. Because we all have a story. And I think that’s what I learned over the past year, is that it’s not just gay men or or transgender woman or man or non-binary or questioning. It can be an ally like Farrah mentioned. Or it could be a dad. Um, it could be a mom. Um, just like, um, you know, um, Allison, when you were on the podcast, you talked about I’m not sorry, not the podcast, but the speaker’s bureau for my orientation. You talked about your experience. So it’s just bringing the experiences together and becoming a family in that way. So I think that’s what PFLAG is also about, community as a whole.

Alison : I think too, like we’re living in a time like, for me, we’re living in a time where you have to really be careful of your words and who you’re talking to. And when we hung out with with Nik Kasey, I want to give a shout out to Nick, who’s just this wonderful, wonderful person and go to the website. Go to his website…

Farrah:  nikkasey.Com.

Alison :  I love that person. I just love them. And when we were we, when we all went out to dinner, we were just talking so openly. And I realized, oh, that’s what safety feels like.

Farrah: Right.

Alison : Like that you guys weren’t going to get in the car and be like, what was Alison saying? God, she’s like a freak. I felt very loved.

Farrah: Right

Alison : how do you facilitate those conversations? How does PFLAG, like you were saying, Corey, that you’ve had conversations with people and you’ve had, uh, site visits with people. What happens at those? Like how do you how do people begin to open up to you guys? Because you’re really… It was such a great feeling.

Corey: Yeah. I think, you know you for me, I get and I can I for me, I think what I’ve learned probably over the past 10 or 15 years to trust myself. And then what that led to is understanding that people trust me a lot more than I thought they did.

Alison : Mhm.

Corey: I sometimes I’m on the metro. I could be um at a store, I could be at a restaurant and somebody will just start talking to me about their life and start opening up where I just, I’m just sitting there listening. But I don’t know if it’s my demeanor, if it’s my my smile. I don’t know what it is, but, um, people just.

Farrah: All of the above. Do you have a very open… You are.  you do have a very open demeanor.

Jean : I think it’s your energy.

Farrah: Yeah, exactly.

Corey: But yeah, people, I think. And that’s when I have conversations with people. Um, and then start to learn about them. And I it just becomes organic. It’s not forced. Um, it’s it’s natural. You know what I’m saying? And that’s what I think. Me and Farrah especially want to do. Because when we go out together to these events, um, we’ve been to a lot together. We’ve done tabling, we’ve done pride parades and everything like that. And, you know, it’s just looking at someone giving them that eye contact, saying hello is the start of that. I mean, and a lot of people can’t even do that these days. You walk past a neighbor that you’ve lived by for ten years and they never speak to you. So I think that’s how we connect and that’s how that conversation begins.

Farrah: Right. I think we do. We approach the world similarly where we’re just like, hello? Yeah. And then, you know, some people respond, some people don’t.

Corey: But that’s okay.

Farrah: We remain open. Exactly. We just remain open to if a person wants to respond, great. You know, and if not, fine, like you do you kind of thing. Um, and I do think actually, Corey, you just modeled what was great about like a PFLAG, say, meeting support group meeting where you said, like, just in my experience, you specifically said, like we do try and keep it and say, like, this is from our experience, so we can’t talk to everyone’s, but this is how we’ve experienced it. And it does in the group settings invite others to be like, well, I’ve experienced it this way. Um, and it can, you know, there are groups, you know, kind of sessions where people come from very disparate, you know, viewpoints, very disparate. Um, and but because it is, we set it up as a space to be like, we’re not judging people. We are taking everyone as they are. They are coming to, you know, we’re all coming to this place from a, from our own places of want. Being curious about others. Wanting to connect. Wanting to share and also be heard. So it’s like it’s very much, you know, as and it’s it’s usually about an hour, an hour and a half. But throughout that time, I feel like what happens is people sort of, they let their guards down and they start talking from their places of vulnerability.

Farrah: And, and everyone that’s there, you know, hears it and, and can respond and react, but not in, you know, it’s not about being hostile or being like the way I see it is right and you’re wrong. It’s like, oh, I see how you can see it that way. Um, and this is, this is how I’ve seen it. And, you know, it’s really just a sharing experience and really, really is more to be there to support one another for whatever experience we’re going through. Um, and I think it makes a big it ,yeah, I’ve seen it make a big impact on people where they’re like, oh, I didn’t realize that. I’m going to have to think about that or I feel more comfortable where I’m at, because we do get a lot of, say, parents and friends who are like, a friend came out to me and I don’t know what to do, you know, or my kid came out to me and I’m not sure, like, I love them. I want to support them, but I don’t know where to start. And so it’s very important for those groups, I think, excuse me, for all of us to just be like, okay, we’re here, we’re meeting each other where we’re at right now and and everything everything’s on the table and it’s all okay, you know, we can do this.

Jean : So do you, is PFLAG, would you say it’s like a counseling center?

Farrah: I wouldn’t say it’s a counseling center because we don’t offer that sort of, you know, level of service. I would say it’s like there’s part of us… It’s a support group. Yeah, it’s a support group. Right. Um, and and, our facilitators are trained in support, like just providing a space for people to come at whatever, wherever they’re at on their, you know, either their personal LGBTQ+ journey or their allyship journey, just to come and be like, hey, um, you know, even be like, this is what I’m dealing with today. Like, I just need to, you know, talk about it, talk about it, maybe get some insight. Yes. Get it off my chest. Yeah. Because I think. Yeah. Like, we we need those spaces, you know? Um, yeah. And just and just to be, like humans talking to humans, you know, we don’t we’re not. no one’s judging anyone from, you know, for anything. You’re everyone’s just coming as they are in that time, and we’re all just. We just want to connect, Basically um, and and say like, you know what, I see you, I see what you’re going through. Um, you know, that’s really hard. Just acknowledge that life is hard or but, you know, maybe you can learn some things. Maybe you can have some food for thought after this meeting kind of thing. Yeah.

Jean : And feel you’re not alone.

Farrah: Yes, yes. And do feel that sense of community of like, oh there are exactly. Because I think that is uh, especially with, you know, Covid and everything, just all our communities sort of shrinking, you know, to, to very small, you know. Yeah, just a few people, a handful of people almost. I think it’s amazing to be able to reach out to people that you just, you know, we’re strangers. Yeah, but we’re all we’re all, you know, going through life and and possibly having shared experiences that, you know, we can we can talk about and and share and commiserate like it’s really commiseration is is key. You know.

Alison : I think that, I think, uh, we’re living in a time where, um, so much is happening and, and I think for me, I feel like, is this…. I don’t know what I’m doing. I don’t know what I’m reading. I don’t know what I’m seeing. Like, we’re living in that kind of time. And so with with P-flag, I felt like, um, when I met you guys, I felt just like, oh, this is not unique.  I’m, I’m okay. I’m okay to be a little afraid. I’m okay to be, uh, jubilant. I’m okay to feel, um, um, like a great parent. And I’m okay to feel like, wow, I really did not do well in that situation.

Farrah: Right

Alison : what do you think the biggest challenges allies have in general that you’ve heard? Is there, is there some challenges? Or if someone how can how can we just give a little tidbit of someone knows someone that’s come out to them? What’s like a challenge that you think you could help or talk about?

Corey: Um.

Farrah: Do you want to take that, Corey? Yeah. You want to go first?

Corey: Well, you know, they they don’t necessarily, um, voice that. I think it’s a feeling of, um, fear and not knowing how to support them. They think that there has to be, you know, an answer or there has to be a specific way to be an ally. Um, we all have allies in our lives. So I always say, think about the allies you have in your life. You know what I’m saying? And, you know, whether it’s, you know, um, is someone discriminating against you for your race or your sex or is it your religion or something like that? Like, what type of allies do you have? Um, think about how they support you, how they show up, how they, um, listen. And a lot of times, that’s all that is needed as an ally. You don’t have to, you know, a lot of people think, oh, well, I have to go to a pride march, or I have to, um, you know, go to a meeting or to a you can you can do all those things, but it’s also just, you know, asking them, you know, what do you want to go out for coffee? Do you want to talk about anything? Um, you know, so I think it’s that fear. Um, they kind of put a wall up because they think they’re going to say the wrong thing or, um, not say the right pronouns, you know, because there’s so many new terms and there’s so many new ways of identifying.

Corey: I don’t even know. Half of them… I probably know a little bit of them, but it’s constantly changing. So I’m even afraid sometimes. And I grew up in an era where we didn’t… Me and my friend, my best friend in DC, we talk about this all the time. He’s like, do you use pronouns? And I said, no, but I use them, you know, according to what I’m doing or where I’m at. But in my everyday life, I don’t, I don’t personally use them because that’s not how I grew into this, who I am, but I support it. And, um, even though I’m in part of that community. So but people have to understand, look, you can be wrong and it’s okay. You know, people aren’t going to say, oh my gosh, I can’t believe you missed, uh, pronoun me or what have you. Um, they’re they’re going to forgive you. Um, and I still do that. So I always just say, you know what? Listen to your heart, um, have feeling behind what you’re saying. And make sure you have intention. And you, you’re you’re advocating for them. You’re listening to them. You’re supporting them. Um, you’re just being there. And that’s really all an ally is to any of us, you know? So I just say, think about it that way. But I think that’s the obstacle allies put in front of themselves unnecessarily.

Farrah: Yeah.

Alison : My ally is Jean.  Jean’s like the best ally. What you just said, I think, i never even thought of it that way. Just think of an ally you have. I can tell you anything.

Corey: Yes.

Alison : I never feel like, like…. And you’ll just listen. So that’s a great way of putting it, Corey.

Jean : And and I think for me, I don’t have a child that is homosexual or trans, but because my I have learned so much because of Allison’s child, who I love and, and it’s really helped me expand myself and, and see other people in a, you know, out of the box we were talking about. But I, I know that when I see Allison’s wonderful child, I, I don’t want to offend them and say the wrong pronoun, right…and  I know they would be so like they would laugh if I, you know… But I think that you don’t want to offend your friend or or misspeak in your. And we’re so in especially my generation, you know, we’re so conditioned. Yeah. Um, my daughter, who’s in her 30s, she can move and groove with, with pronouns, but I, it’s like I have to really be conscious.

Farrah: Right. I mean, I think it’s true. Like, at a certain point I still remember, like, grammar was huge. And so you had to be very correct, right?… About what you  said and like, “they”, you never used in third or, you know, it was like a rule, I feel like, so it was, it was very hard to, to re, you know, recreate those neural pathways are very trodden.

Jean : Wearing thin.

Farrah: Yes. Yes. Oh. It’s so. Yeah. So it’s it’s really difficult. I think, you know, a big thing for me is, um, is kind of being that bridge, I think, even generationally, because I do feel like, you know, kids maybe up through 20s, even into 30s, like, there are certain, um, there are certain things that are understood. And they, they, they are quick to judge. I think about maybe older generations having trouble, you know, with pronouns or with new terminology and etc. and like maybe writing off older generations. So I do feel like it’s important, as you know, uh, as the president of PFLAG, to be that bridge, to be like, hey, you know, we can’t just, like, cut off people because they accidentally made a mistake, like, and their intention is they’re like. And, you know, that mistake might happen a lot. I mean, it happened a lot for me, even with my own child. Um, and we have to be able to kind of, you know, forgive, accept that people are fallible, you know, and but still know that people are allies and they’re trying. And it may just be, it’s really tough. Like those those pathways are really set. Yeah. Are really set. Yeah.

Alison : or just say, I’m sorry.

Farrah: Right.

Alison : I’ve made the mistake. I immediately say I’m sorry.

Farrah: Right.

Alison : Let me just take that back. I was I was texting Nick. Uh, I miss pronouned, my child.

Farrah: Okay.

Alison : I immediately texted Nick, and… Yes, i don’t know where that came from. I’m so sorry. I thought it was disrespectful to my child and to even you. And I’m sorry. Right. And it felt like. Well, um. There it is. And then I called my kid and I said, this is what happened, and I’m sorry. Yeah. And I feel like coming clean in that way.

Farrah: Right.

Alison : Owning my mistakes has been a big learning lesson because, you know.

Farrah: Right.

Alison : I’m very stubborn. I’m from the Bronx, you know. I know it… And I don’t, I don’t.

Farrah: Right.

Alison : And I think you’re right. Forgiveness and taking responsibility. I’ve learned so much about on this journey.

Farrah: Right, right. and just being and just, and being kind to yourself. Right. Yeah. And being like, oh, I’m gonna I’m gonna make that mistake. It is a mistake that I make. And, um. Yeah. And just kind of being like, that’s okay. Yeah, it was a mistake. I didn’t mean, you know… I know myself, you know, like knowing in your heart that you mean the best, right? I think is something that, you know, allies, you know, we we are constantly working on.

Alison : And that’s what the world needs in general.

Corey: Yeah.

Farrah: Right. I mean, yes, one would hope. I mean, I really.

Jean : Think we need that.

Farrah: It’s just loving ourselves a little bit more loving.

Jean : it says right here…Leading with love.

Farrah: Leading with love. And, you know, one thing I did want to mention about, um, you know, kind of being an ally. I think an important part of of being that, you know, and this is probably more for allies who are a little, you know, more comfortable being the ally, have been out there a bit more, you know. So this is not for like I’m just starting out. But what I, I do feel strongly about is, sort of teaching the world, showing the world that, um, you know, if someone’s different, if some whatever the difference may be, whether it’s race, gender, LGBTQ plus, you know, um, sort of, uh, designation or what have you, it doesn’t detract and it doesn’t negate from, from you as a person… From like, because I feel like people, you know, all the fear mongering that happens about various LGBTQ+ issues is because people are like, oh, no, it’s going to take away from my own experience to acknowledge this or acknowledge or accept, um, I want and I think it’s a it might be a very American cultural kind of thing where it’s like, oh, no, you’re going to take away from me, but I want it to be I want us to be able to say, no, it’s not about taking away, it’s about being additive and adding to the experience of of being humans on this Earth. You know, like and just it’s it brings more it’s more joy, it’s more love. It’s more acceptance. It’s more celebration of just the beauty of, of of humanity, you know. Um, and so that, to me, is what we as allies, I think can do and can help express, um, as we are those bridges to various communities, etc. like just saying, hey, look, it’s it’s not about taking away from you. It’s about adding to the world of of beautiful experience. Right? Basically.

Alison : It’s adding to the colors of the world, right? The texture of the world.

Farrah: Exactly.

Alison : Yeah. Yeah.

Farrah: Yeah.

Jean : What are you guys working on now at PFLAG? Is there any.

Alison : Well, the Podcast is fantastic.

Farrah: It’s true.

Jean : Okay, well, that said enough that I know there’s a lot of podcasts out there. It is a lot of work. I mean, you know, you have a lot to….

Farrah: It really is. Yes. We’re going to need to talk to you guys offline about just tips and tricks and things.

Jean : Oh, we’ve got so many.

Jean : Oh, good.

Alison : We are. We’re the worst. We’re like the don’t do… Like the before picture.

Farrah: We can learn from that though. We’ll take whatever you’ve got.

Jean : that’s Right.

Farrah: Seriously, let’s. We can grab coffee and we’ll just sit and chat. Yeah. Just all whatever, whatever experience you can lend to us, we will take, frankly.

Alison : Can you tell us a little bit about your podcast? Because I’ve, I saw, I listened to the first one, which I thought was so fantastic. I have not listened to the second one yet. Could you talk a little bit like did you have fun doing it? Like, what do you think of it?

Corey: Yeah, it’s pretty eye opening. Um, you know, and it’s really just having conversations. Um, so we’re going to have a guest each time. And, um, some of the guests may be allies. Some of the guests may be someone in the LGBTQ community. Our first guest was an ally. Um, and I met him, of course, through Farrah at the, um… I think it was the LA pride, if I’m not mistaken. He is an ally because of his own child. And he brought some dads with him. And I noticed him. You know, I was never I never even…. We talked about doing a podcast back then, I think. But I didn’t see, you know, oh, is this going to be in five months, six months or whatever? So I wasn’t really in that mindset, but I was looking at him and I was just like, wow, he has a presence to him. So it’s Farrah’s friend and I, when we were discussing the first episode and who we’re going to have, I suggested him and, um, really just wanted to have a conversation with him because of who he presented himself to me and who he was at that pride was exactly who he showed up as, um, at the podcast.

Corey: So it was really great. It was a conversation. It was, um, organic, um, and it was healing. And I think the part of these, I think what I want to take from it and just like from everyday life, is to be healed in some way. And so I think, um, you get healing and just other people and sharing and being generous to them. And, um, just like I was to Orlando, he’s a coach as well. And um, I told him I, you know, I, I always validate people without, you know, specifically being the reason I’m talking to them. I, I told him on the podcast, I said, Orlando, you something about you stood out to me, even though we didn’t talk much. But I was kind of just watching you from a distance. And, um, I learned so much from him just in that moment. And then look at what happened. He ended up being an ally on our podcast. So that’s really what it is to me. Um, and I’m sure that’s what it is going to be to the viewers and to our co-hosts, um, and to the community. And that’s what it’s intended for.

Alison : I loved it because it is like, yeah, you just have a conversation.

Corey: Conversation. Yeah.

Alison : Do you know? And you just learn so much. And whenever we end these things, we always just are floating because there really is so much good in people…kindness, you know, in people, and I think that’s, you know, the whole the whole point of this is just to remind people that we, as you guys said, we’re all basically the same.

Corey: Right.

Alison : You know, we all want to laugh and feel safe and go for coffee. And our kids are good. You know, that’s all what we want.

Corey: Right yeah.

Farrah: Right.

Alison : It’s beautiful. You guys are so wonderful. Can you just tell us the name of the podcast so our listeners can listen to it?

Farrah: Oh, right.  It’s the PFLAG Los Angeles podcast.

Alison : Oh, great.

Jean : very original

Alison : A lot of info.

Farrah: Exactly. Trying to think of some sort of, like, cute name and whatever. And we’re like, you know, it’s just….yea…let’s let’s just throw it out. This is exactly what it is.

Alison : Same thing with inside wink, as you know. Yeah.

Farrah: Oh, yes. I love inside wink though.

Alison : It’s the Complete opposite. You know.

Farrah: It’s true. It’s true.

Alison : So I guess I’m going to ask you. What do you think inside wink means?

Farrah: Oh. That’s true. I had I thought, okay….

Alison : That was your homework…

Farrah: I know that was my homework, and I failed.

Farrah: Uh. Well, I find I finally came up with…. It’s not going to come out clearly, I apologize.  I feel like an inside wink feels very internal to me, and it feels like something in my heart where it’s like, you know that Farrah, you know, like…. Or you know what? I’ll give an A description. When I first met Corey and we first were tabling together at a WeHo pride event and we just started chatting inside myself, I kind of gave myself a wink like, you guys are going to be friends, you know that?

Alison : Yes.

Farrah: And so that’s what an inside wink is to me. Just that little like, hey there, you know.

Alison : I love that.

Farrah: Yeah.

Alison : I really do love that. Corey, what do you think?

Corey: You know, it’s it’s it’s really, um, to me, what it means is that, um, and this is how I talk with my friends, you know, is that if if someone needs you… You’re there for them. It’s like that I got you. Um. And I say it all the time to, um, people who are close to me who are sometimes doubting themselves or, you know, so it’s just that common that, that thing that doesn’t even have to be spoken. It’s just known just by a look. It could be just a feeling. It could be a hug. It’s that. It’s just that giving of each other, you know, because we can’t just take, take, take, take, we have to give, give, give too. So I think it’s just being generous with our hearts, you know, and um, sharing whatever we have to share, you know, because like you said, we’re all the same. And, um, it’s just giving us giving that nod of approval. And, um, I see you and I got you. That’s what it means to me.

Jean : They’re beautiful answers, both of you. Those are great…Beautiful.

Alison : Pie, Cake or ice cream.

Jean : Okay, so Allison and I love to get a good night’s sleep. So we’re going to really need to know what do you prefer, cake, pie or ice cream?

Farrah: Corey, you go first this time.

Corey: That’s a hard one. I wish I could say, I wish I could say all of them, but, um…. Ido have said that.

Jean : You can, People have said that.

Corey: Oh, really? Okay. Well.

Farrah: But if you had to choose.

Corey: Yeah, if I had to choose – cake. And carrot cake is my ultimate. I can eat carrot cake every day. I love if if it were healthy for me. Um, so. But it’s not so… I don’t eat every day.

Jean : It’s not?

Farrah: I know. Wait, what? Carrots are a vegetable. It could be, you know.

Alison : Exactly.

Corey: Yes.

Farrah: Oh. So my mine is similar. I also like cake. Uh, but it was… I would have liked to. There’s certain things that I like about all of them. I know, but in terms of my, I think I still remember this when I was little and the first time I had angel food cake. Oh, and it wasn’t even like fancy. I think it was literally like store bought angel food cake with like, whipped cream and strawberries on top. And I was just like, I am sold. This is the best thing. So I still just love it. I think from, you know, all those years ago when I was like a little girl.

Alison : I love that.

Corey: Yeah. That’s nice.

Alison : Do you know what cracks me up? We have these guests like you guys. So you guys are talking about challenging topics, healing, uh, community, uh, LGBTQ. And then we say pie, cake or ice cream, and you’re like, well, that’s a tough one. That’s hard.

Corey: It is.

Alison : And, you know, we talked to like, philosophers and scientists. We get to this last question and they’re like, that really gave me pause.

Corey: Yeah. It does.

Farrah: That’s true. You guys should really do like a psychological study on that and be like, why is this so tough? Why is this?

Alison : It’s so vulnerable.

Farrah: This is the thing that gets us.

Jean : Now You’re really getting down to some very deep intimate.

Farrah: Exactly. I mean, I think I think that you’ve hit the nail on the head. You really… You drilled down with those questions, I think.

Alison : And yet another example why you don’t want to follow us and tours for a podcast.

Farrah: Oh my God, I love it though it was…. I loved that those were the questions. You were like, you must answer these. I’m like, okay, this is good…it makes you think.

Alison : You get to know people in a different way.

Corey: You really do.

Farrah: It’s true. It’s very true.

Alison : You guys have meant so much to me and really … Jean knows I’ll start crying. You guys really meant so much to me. And, um, you’ve really just boosted me up. And just knowing that you’re in the world has helped me. So if you need anything or you want me to participate in more ways. Yeah, I’m your person.

Farrah: Oh my gosh.

Alison : I just think the work you guys are doing and how you’re doing it with your kindness and openness, you know, just be kind and you are walking example. So thank you. So.

Corey: Thank you.

Farrah: Yeah I hope you know the feeling is absolutely mutual Alison. So just know that I know now I’m tearing up too.

Jean : Because I’m Alison’s ally..

Farrah:  Oh my gosh.

Jean : That goes Double for me.

Corey: So we’re so happy to finally meet you and hear more about you , Jean and, um. Yeah, I, I feel that from you just on this one, what, 45 minutes that we’ve been on? Um, the warmth comes through just as much, so…. Thank you.

Jean : Thank you.

Alison : Yeah, well, have a great day. And thank you so much for taking this time to talk.

Farrah: Oh, my gosh. Thank you for having us. Yes. Well. Coffee soon? We definitely soon. Okay, bye.

Alison : Bye bye.

Jean : They were so lovely,

Alison : Aren’t they? And they’re smart and they’re passionate. And the thing that kills me is she has such an easy laugh. Like. Like she’s just bubbling over. And Corey, every word he used, like it’s healing, it’s there. And you go, God, Corey you’re so he’s so present. Like, they’re just a perfect team. Yeah. You know, I just I really meant what I said.

Alison : I know you did. I mean, they were both so benevolent and so pure of heart. You know, you could feel that purity in them. And and I think when they are in the perfect place. I mean, I loved when Corey said he he he’s just like was he doesn’t overthink. He just whatever comes to him, he just goes with it, right? Yeah. And and I love that. It’s like really trusting the universe that this is where you’re meant to be. And he just shows up with and and so does Farrah with just show up with love. Yeah. Wherever you are, show up kind, non-judgmental, with a helping mind and heart.

Alison : I think, you know, I’m oddly like I went into this thing not knowing anyone, and my first meeting was with those two in this room, and then we had to speak together, and, um, I, I was so nervous, like.

Jean : I remember.

Alison : You know, I was so, so nervous. And then, um, I just realized, oh, they were just curious about me. And they were like. Like like you. Like, I don’t know, it was just so easy, right? And I thought, wow, I hope I’m like that.

Jean : You are so like that.

Alison : Like to new People you thank?.

Jean : 100%. And I think what Farah said about, you know, when we don’t know something, we we can get a little bit standoffish or whatever. But you know, just to be curious.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : She said something to that fact.

Alison : Yep, yep. Exactly.

Jean : Because we don’t understand or we don’t get it. And what does transgender mean? And and you know, it’s like we’re all just being curious to know more about each other.

Alison : And we just want to love who we want to love and live in a way that is open and respected. Do you know? And so if, if you or anyone you know is going through, um, anything like, uh, people, someone came out to you, or you’re thinking about coming out or transitioning or anything…. Pflag is an excellent support base for you, I think.

Jean : And I think they they have about 360 offices around the United States.

Alison : And so really they’re it’s just a wonderful – the people are wonderful and— love each other, you know, love each other. Love who you want to love. Love each other. Be kind, be respectful. That’s my lesson from today. Do you agree?

Jean : I, I think that is how you move in the world. Alison. So. So, um.

Alison : I love you, Jeannie. And where you’re where your allies.

Jean : We are.

Alison : We are. So have a great day. And thank you for listening.

Jean : Bye.

Jean: Hi, there.

Alison: Are you. Are you, um. Are you feeling good about your public speaking?

Jean: Never.

Alison: Not at all.

Jean: Never. It is not my thing. But, uh.

Alison: But you’re very good at it.

Jean: You’re very good at it. But I think because you have.

Alison: I’m more used to it…

Jean: you’re more used to it beacause you have an actor’s training background. But I am really looking forward to talking with our guests today… Linda Ugelow.

Alison: Yep. She’s great. She wrote a book called, Delight in the Limelight. Overcome your fear of being seen and realize your dreams. And it’s more than just public speaking. This book about.

Jean: Yes,

Alison: It’s really about coming into your own worth, right?

Jean:  just feeling, uh, good about the person that you are.

Alison: Right. And she has she has a lot going on. She does Podcasts. She’s a writer and she’s a

Jean: Dancer.

Alison: Right.. She’s a speaker. She helps people increase their confidence. Yeah. Yeah. She’s got stuff. She’s got stuff.

Jean: We’re gonna hang out with her for a long time.

Alison: That’s right. That’s right. And we’re taking notes. I think you’re going to really enjoy it. Here’s Linda.

Linda: Hi. I didn’t realize you guys are going to be in the same room.

Alison: Yeah, we’re always in the same room.

Linda: That’s so cool. How fun is that?

Jean: Yeah. We are so blessed. We live very close to each other.

Linda: And where is that?

Jean: We live in Studio City, California.

Linda: Um.

Jean:  about five minute drive to each other.

Linda: How fun is that?

Alison: Well, thank you so much for joining us. This is very exciting for us because I’m an actor and Jean has to talk a lot in public and loves it.

Linda: Lucky you all.

Jean: I could have used your book, uh, quite a few years ago, but it was beautifully written, Linda. And, um, so thank you for for taking the time to write this book and to really, it’s so much more than just a, um, how to get, you know, it’s it’s such a soul, um, evolving book. It really gets underneath everything. And, um, but before we get into that, uh, would you like to tell us a little bit about your journey? Yeah, about fear of speaking.

Linda: Uh, sure.

Jean: And what prompted you to write this wonderful book?

Linda: Yes, yes. For sure. I, I grew up speaking very little. I was a good listener. I was the quiet one. Everybody else were the people who took up all the space, right? And it wasn’t until I was in grad school that anyone asked me to speak on anything, really. I mean, of course in school I probably had to do something, but the the first time I remember was in grad school. I was studying some movement therapy modalities, and there was one in particular that I was so passionate about. And my my advisor said, you know, you should give a talk to, you know, the school about it. I assumed she was meaning the students. And when I walked in that day, it was all the faculty and my blood pressure just like went rose up, I my mouth got so dry. Bone dry. I opened my mouth. Not a word came out. I couldn’t utter a single sound even to ask for water. And I was so mortified and my advisor did notice my dilemma. She brought me water. The sound came back, but I never felt like I got over that. Afterwards, I just felt like I wanted to crawl under the covers for a year. And I decided I’d never speak in public again. And I didn’t it for ten years. However, during that same time, I was a performer myself in with a women’s world music group. Oh, and I was on stage a lot. I was the principal dancer. I was a singer, you know, mostly inside a group, but occasionally solos.

Linda: But I hated having to introduce a song. I hated it. You know, we kind of joked how some people had the gift of gab and they would just go, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, yada yada about every song. And the rest of us would be like, memorizing, but like really nervous. And it wasn’t really something that I ever paid attention to until I became an online entrepreneur, when I decided to become an online coach, and once I built a website, I took a coaching course. I needed to build a following and at that time it was 2015. It seemed that video was the best way to go about it. So I started to take a lot of video courses to just get comfortable with it, which was very, very hard earned. I felt being a performer worked against me. It was like I was performative all the time. I didn’t know how to talk naturally. And when I finally, after taking a number of video classes, I made my first public video. But before sending it out, I sent it to a friend of mine and she said, Linda, I hate to say this to you, but it doesn’t sound like you. It doesn’t sound like the person who calls me up on the phone and chats with me, and I knew what she meant, but I didn’t know how to get out of that. Around the same time, my video mentor said, you know, there’s this incredible new technology called live streaming. This is 2015, and I don’t know if you gals remember periscope.

Alison: I do, I do.

Linda: You do?

Alison: Yeah. It was like the first one.

Linda: Yes. Yes. I think there was another one called meerkat. But no, no one used meerkat. Maybe just the some geeks. So. Yeah. So she they all the marketing guru said you got to get on periscope daily to build a following. So I thought, okay, I’m terrified, but I’m going to do this because I’m sure after a few weeks I’ll get comfortable and I’ll feel relaxed and and it was terrifying. I felt like I was hyperventilating, my heart was racing, my mouth was dry again. But I because of my background in expressive arts therapy and movement therapy, I knew how to like, breathe deeply and do affirmations and meditation and power poses and all that stuff. So I would spend like 45 minutes every single day, and then I’d write my notes that things I’m going to talk about and, and get on And then the next day I do the same thing. And so the weeks go by. I get to ten weeks and I’m thinking, wait a minute, why is my heart still pounding?

Jean: Yeah.

Linda: And I thought, I’m showing up, I’m getting on. But every single day I have to manage my anxiety.  I don’t want to have anxiety. How can I get rid of it?  That’s when I decided, you know, I looked at my background. I said, okay, you’ve got 35 years of being on stage, you have this master’s degree, you got to have some tools. So I made a list of all the tools I had, and one of the tools on my list was called focusing, something I had learned in grad school about kind of somatizing an issue. So I closed my eyes and I asked if the fear could talk. What would it say? And what came back was, you’re going to be attacked. And I Wondered, is this like cellular memory of being attacked on the Serengeti? Or is this my life? And suddenly memories came back to me of my sisters ganging up on me, kicking me in the shins, holding me on the ground to torture tickle me. When? Anytime mom put me in the center of attention, she would say. Linda’s such a good girl. Why can’t you girls be more like Linda?

Alison: Yeah.

Linda: And then it was like, well, duh. Of course, I’m not comfortable being the center of attention because I learned it was dangerous. And then all of a sudden it was like, oh, that’s what this is about. It’s not about getting on camera. It’s not about like, being afraid of talking to people who are nice that are sitting in front of you. It’s getting triggered from experiences that we had. Now, maybe it wasn’t, you know, that you had two jealous sisters, but, you know, you could have been bullied or you felt on the outside, or you were hurt or injured or rejected or ignored or shamed in public. And any number of things can create that feeling of no one likes me or no one wants to hear from me. I’m not worthy. I’m not as good as that other person that creates this sense of, it’s not safe to be seen. It’s not safe to be heard.

Alison: Right? What was interesting when I read your book, because I was always taught, just manage it, like as an actor, just manage it. Get over it. Jessica Tandy threw up every time she went on stage. Just do it like, you know. And when I, when I was reading your your work, I realized, oh, I think my I still get afraid when I have to go for an audition or act or do something. And I realized it was about, I’m an only child, and I had to be at a very high level of expectation. And I realized, oh, it’s because I have to be really great at it.

Linda: In order to be good enough. Right.

Alison: Right. And so I realized, oh, that’s what that like for I’m old. I’m 67, you know. And I realized, oh my gosh, that’s what that’s been all those years. So I love that you’re doing this sort of deeper dive and not just telling us to like, put lipstick on a pig.

Linda: Well, you know, that’s what everyone says to me. And I think that’s the issue when the speaking coaches are people who have always felt comfortable because they don’t know what it’s like on the other side and I think the reason why a lot of people come to me is because they feel I understand what it’s like because, I do. Yeah. Of what? What it’s like I didn’t get over my fear of speaking till I was 60. I’m 70 now.

Alison: You are not 70.

Linda: I am.

Alison: You are living right in Bedford.

Linda: Sexy at 70? Yeah.

Alison: You are just glowy.

Jean: Yeah.

Linda: Well, you know, this is part of the learning. It’s like, how can we find the best moment to moment experience that we can and bring that with us wherever we go, whether we’re on stage or on camera or at a networking event or at a party or working at our desk. And of course, I have my struggles too. I, in fact, just today I was chatting with an old drumming teacher of mine, and he was sharing ways that he has struggled to get comfortable speaking. He was a professor and and also a performer, and they each have had their own journey. And I was thinking, yeah, I’ve had a different journey for getting comfortable being seen dancing. I’ve had a different journey around my singing. I’ve had a different journey about writing and putting out my writing. And I have a different journey about speaking confidence. And, and, you know, people will say, well, it’s weird because I feel comfortable maybe when there’s an audience there, but I’m not comfortable when I have to look at a lens. And then there will be people who say the opposite, and then some people will say, I feel comfortable with, you know, a couple of people, but not a thousand. And then I’ve had people who come and they tell me the opposite. Yeah. Or people who are comfortable with their peers, but not elders and others. Elders, but not their peers. And it all depends on what are our unique personal conditioning that we had from, you know, a combination of our home life or school life, social media, religious, cultural, you know, where we grew up. All these things play a part.

Alison: That’s amazing.

Jean: It is. It is. So, you know, your work is so liberating. And and one of the things you wrote, Linda, was that fear, fear is a protective mechanism, but it’s also a gift.

Alison: Fear, fear.

Jean: What did I say?

Alison: Gift a gift.

Jean: I’m sorry. And, um and I do want to talk about that because to think of fear as a gift. So why why that I, I read it so I love it. But share that.

Linda: Yeah, it’s because without this fear, we wouldn’t realize those areas of our life that are asking to be healed, that are asking to be resolved. And this is actually why I like working with people who want to speak because they’re motivated to clean up their stuff. Yeah, we all have stuff. There’s no one on the planet that doesn’t. But when you are wanting, when you feel like you’ve got a message, when you feel like you want to make an impact and you have that motivation, you’re willing to do what it takes. And so if I didn’t have this fear of speaking, I wouldn’t realize that I’d been carrying this stuff around for my sisters all my life. All my life. And the crazy thing is, when I first when it first occurred to me, I was thinking, but we’ve been friends for decades. Do I still feel this way? Am I still worried that if I succeed in some way, they won’t love me? And I listened inside and I thought, oh holy moly, yes, I still feel that way. I’m afraid to shine.

Alison: Yeah.

Linda: That they’re going to think. Who does? Who does she think she is?

Jean: Yeah. And that that also can lead to the fear of abandonment. You know, there’s so many the layers of fear, you know, it’s like, wow.

Linda: And that’s why it’s so complicated. And it feels like this big, humongous mountain in front of you because there’s so many interconnected tangles in it. You know, I say, you know, the experiences kind of glom together.  So usually it’s not one experience. I also was bullied, you know, at school in seventh grade, all the girls decided, I don’t know why. Nobody talked to Linda. And for four days, no one talked to me. And that was life impacting. And, you know, I never went to a high school reunion until 40 years later because I was thinking, I don’t want to be around these people. These people didn’t want me. I don’t want them. Right. Of course, I kind of let go of that. And I thought, okay, I wonder who who these people are even are today. And what blew me out of the out of the water was, you know, so many people came up and they said, oh, Linda, I remember when you did this, I remember this dance event or I and they would tell me specific things and I would look at them and I’d think, I don’t even know your name.

Alison: Wow.

Linda: Because what happened was when I felt that, you know, I was hurt in this way, I put on blinders. It was like I stopped looking around me, I stopped observing. I was like, in my own world because it felt that’s.. That was my coping mechanism.

Jean: Right, right.

Linda: And how ridiculous. And now, you know, I’ve been back again for the 50th, and people are so nice. And it’s like, I don’t even remember who those girls were who concocted that thing.

Alison: Yeah.

Linda: But, you know, a single comment can last a lifetime, for better or for worse. And so the gift is that we see what these things are and we can clean them up. We can resolve them. And it doesn’t mean five years of therapy. There are lots of modalities that are out there. I name a number of them in my book that I use in my programs and with my clients. But, you know, right now I’m promoting a program, The Delight in the Limelight Accelerator. And it’s ten weeks. You can get over this in ten weeks.

Alison: Yeah. See that’s great. Do you, when you are working with somebody, are the modalities to get through different if it’s, uh, different types of fear or is there like a general sort of program to help you heal.

Linda: Well, I feel like there are different areas of attention that we need to do, but it’s not it’s not about like, oh, if you were bullied, you do something different than if you were ignored or your parents weren’t around, or you moved around a lot and felt on the outside. No, those the modalities work no matter what.

Alison: That’s great. And so do you find that you’ve healed from the kicking and the shins time?

Linda: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I, I was over it in five days. Once I realized that I had all this stuff. I, I had tools to work with it, and it was kind of like, I can’t believe I’ve had these tools for years. If I only knew I had stuff to clear away, I would have done it ten years ago.

Alison: Right.

Linda: But it never occurred to me because you look online. And what do they tell you? Feel the fear and do it anyway. Practice more. Um, if you have, you know, if you practice over and over, you’ll be fine or do some deep breathing or do a power pose, or pretend your fear is excitement or, you know, it’s all these. It’s not like any of those things are bad, but they’re not going to get to the root cause, right? So yes, I, I was over my fear in five days.

Alison: That’s fantastic.

Jean: That is fantastic.

Linda: Now, that’s not to say I wasn’t ever nervous again because I. I remember doing a storytelling slam, um, and I had a week to memorize it, and I was nervous because I didn’t know if I had it memorized. But that’s different than being afraid to be seen and heard. It’s kind of like, okay, am I going to, like, have the capacity and the mental focus to, to get through this because it’s not really inside me. And you know, that as being, you know, actors or on the stage or how that can be. So I, I feel like, yeah, if you’re not prepared, that’s going to cause some anxiety, but that’s different than being afraid of being seen and heard.

Alison: I think I think what you’re describing is a technical fear. Yeah. And then there’s like a heart fear. Mhm. It’s like, you know that thing that everyone used to say to me, just picture everyone naked.

Linda: As if that would be distracting. I mean, if you could do that. First of all I, I’ve tried that. It’s like, that doesn’t even work for me. But but if it did, I would find that extremely distracting and not focusing.

Alison: And not everyone I want to I don’t even barely want exactly that. So, you know, like, I just really.

Linda: Yeah.

Alison: So I love I love that you’re saying that we can all manage this because I think that’s like, for me,

Jean: or Get over it.

Alison: Right.  Like for me, it’s not so much being in front of an audience or any of that, but it’s at being at parties. I’m, I don’t they frighten me. I don’t know ever want to say I’m just eating cheese the whole night. Like I just can’t not do, you know? Like, it’s hard for me. And so I really want to work with this to get over that.

Linda: Absolutely. Yes. Yes. And I feel like you you absolutely can. And it’s a it’s a very meaningful place of our lives to learn to feel like really at home at a party because, I mean, you know, this is a gathering of people, it’s community, and it can be very meaningful if we feel comfortable. But there are a lot of issues at a party. For instance, a lot of people take up air time and they don’t have awareness of how to share it. So there can be issues like that or there can be…. I know for myself, I, I would feel comfortable doing something on stage, but not something in public  off this stage. Why? Because on stage, it’s a contract, that you have the right to take up the space. But to tell a lengthy story at a party and command that attention, it’s like, who am I to do that? So it’s it’s different. There are different elements at play that can create a sense of I don’t know how to do this, so it’s worth it for I mean, I would say, you know, think about what is it that you’re worried about?

Jean: Yeah. Yeah.

Linda: I mean, and then and then you take those things and then you trace it back.

Jean: Right and, you know, the beautiful thing too, is that we all have, as Allison says, our bag of rocks. You know, we we all have… I mean, I shouldn’t say we all… I don’t want to use absolutes, but most of us have fears. You know, whether it’s being abandoned, whether it’s not being liked. One, I just I mean, there were so many, but I really related to your imposter syndrome.

Alison: Yeah.  Could you talk about that a little bit for us? Because I think a lot of people have that, especially nowadays with so much social media.

Linda: A lot of times people think of imposter syndrome as like, I don’t know what I’m doing. That’s not really imposter syndrome, because if you’re doing something new, of course you don’t know what you’re doing. That’s about learning to have a beginner mindset and being comfortable being a beginner, which is admittedly really hard for us because, you know, like all all you need to do is like, say, okay, let’s, uh, draw a dragon and people are like i’m not an artist, you know. Oh my God. And as if it’s a big thing. And we’re so paralyzed by that.

Alison: Right.

Linda: So being able to say, okay, I don’t know what I’m doing because I don’t do art, but. And just do it. We we make it a this like we put this pressure on ourselves to be somewhere else than we are that I don’t consider imposter syndrome. I consider that a beginner um, being able to honor and accept being a beginner. Yeah. Where I do feel like it comes up is that no matter what you do, you’re not good enough, right? So the person who I had a client whose parents were never pleased with her unless she came home with a perfect report card or an award, and even then, it only lasted about 20 minutes. And then they would be mon that this was their daughter. Why did God give this person to them? She’s so awful and she had no idea what was what was wrong with her. But she grew up feeling like no matter how many awards she has, no matter how many accolades, no matter how many people thought she was wonderful and actually everyone in her life thought she was wonderful. And she was a consultant for a big energy company. So she had a big, high powered job, but she said she was in a panic all the time that someone’s going to find out she’s a fraud.

Linda: Why? Because the two people that were most important in her life, she was never good enough for. So no matter what she did, she always felt like that was that was her wound she was carrying around. So it can happen when you are pressured to be perfect, right? It can happen. I’ve had, um. Oh, I had this, uh, author Tricia Montalvo Timm, on my podcast, um, delight on the limelight. And she is a Latina. Her parents were immigrants. They told her, don’t tell anybody that you are Latina because there’s so much discrimination. So she hid that from everybody. And she felt I felt like, I was a fraud. Nobody knew who the real me because I’m hiding it, because I had always been told not to do it. And she had this amazing career very, very high up. And then she said, I feel like I’m a total fraud. The other thing that she, she talked about was, uh, affirmative action. Because if you, I mean, in and of itself, it’s not necessarily a problem. But if you have other people who don’t agree with this policy and they say you stole somebody else’s job, you’re only here because of that policy that makes you feel like you’re a fraud.

Jean: Yeah, sure.

Linda: I had someone I worked with from, um, Intel who had a very similar experience. She wasn’t a, um, a minority, but she was, she had applied for like a gifted kids program when she was, I don’t know, third grade or something like that. She didn’t get in, but her father was on the school board and got her in. And one day a boy turned to her as they’re walking to the gifted kids classroom. You’re not supposed to be here. You’re only here because your dad got you in. And here she is, this high level HR senior manager still carrying this wound. Yeah, I feel like I’m not really supposed to be here.

Alison: And you know, what you’re saying is so I think poignant right now, what you just mentioned about we’re living in a world right now, I think, where people are feeling more attacked by social media and feeling that if I’m afraid to say what I think, I’m afraid to do something because they could be cancelled. I could get, you know, threats like backlash. Yeah. Do you have any suggestions for how to maneuver through these times? Because I know so many people that are deeply upset.

Linda: Yes. It’s a very challenging time. And and I like to say that this doesn’t mean that there aren’t toxic environments. And we do live in a, in a dangerous environment in many ways. I, I see the biggest problem of the divide and I think for at least the way that I look at it, I see how can I cross the divide. And I think it has to do with listening to each other and asking questions and being willing to being willing to hold space for one another. And and remember, there was a time even in our country where, I mean, I remember being a kid and my parents had an election night party. They invited all their friends. They had a picture of Nixon and they had a picture, a picture of, i guess it was Kennedy.. And and they all came together and they watched the election night results together.. You would never have that here.

Alison: No.

Linda: So we need to remember that. And there was a time that even in the government, people worked with each other across the divide. And now it is a divide that is hardly, hardly, um, that hardly ever meets.  so I, I believe that it’s about how can I be brave. And and reach out and be open minded to listen. What are people what are people’s concerns? And I think in terms of like doing that, I think it’s it’s about like listening and not responding. Really it’s about like what what are the issues that are most concerning to you these days or what? What are, you know, in your what are your circles talking about and why is that? You know, what are what are they listening to? And you know what feels most painful or tender?

Jean: Yeah. And because I also think that really communicating through your heart is so important now more than ever. And you, you know, reading your, some of your work and, you know, really, um, empowers this whole our whole communication, how we address situations. Um, and to your point, Alison, I think it’s really important where we live in now to use our voices because so many of us have never really had to just go along with the status quo.

Linda: Right, right. I think that’s so important, Jean. And it’s it’s about that’s why I think it’s so important for us to share our stories. Yeah. Like, this is important to me because of this. This is what happened to me in my life. And so these kinds of things are important to me. And I think one of the benefits that I have gotten being a coach is that I hold space for a lot of people. I hear a lot of their stories, and I feel like that’s helped me hold space for people who come from different places. You know, one of the things that, um, you may not know about me, but my husband’s Hungarian and we spend a lot of time in Hungary, um, and I’ve done a lot of traveling. And it occurred to me that when I, when I traveled around the world when I was 23, I, I read about, well, how do people, you know, what are the values or what are the expectations in Burma or in Hong Kong or in, in India, and I try to move through those countries with as much um um, what what am I looking for? Uh, respect   as I could. And there were countries that treated women like, you know, they were second class citizens. They had different kinds of laws. They had very, very different practices when it came to, let’s say, uh, birth control or free speech or any of these things. But, I would go in there and I would accept it because I was a visitor to their country.

Jean: Right. Yeah.

Linda: We don’t do that here. We could do that here. We could treat each other like I’m a visitor to your country. Let me learn about your values. Let me learn about your perspective,  the rules you live by the the things that are important to you. We could do that statewide, we could do that, um, party wise, we could do that community wise. We could do that neighbor wise, you know? But it’s interesting that I don’t think that people have a problem. Let’s say, oh, I’m going to Saudi Arabia, where women aren’t allowed to drive, or maybe they are now, but whatever. And they’re not going to, like, make a huge stink, go in there and make a huge stink about it. But we do that here because we expect everybody to think the same way. And that’s just not realistic.

Alison: Yeah. And what you said when I said I was afraid of parties and you said, what are you afraid of? That question and that curiosity, I think saying that to someone that has a different idea than you is enough to start a conversation that is vulnerable?

Linda: Yes.

Alison: Do you know? It’s a great question. What are you afraid of? Could you give our listeners, because I really want them to read your book, but can you give our listeners a couple of tips about how to get over maybe going to a party or someone that has to speak in public? Is there something that they can do, like just a little tip?

Linda: I think the the tip that I love to give, and I think it’s so important that it was in chapter two of my book, like right up front is mental rehearsal visualization. So let’s say you’re going to a party, jean, I would say imagine how you would love to feel at that party. How would you love to feel in your body? How would you love to, like, express yourself? How would you love to like interact with the people around you? How would you like, like, what’s the expression on your face? Yeah. You know, how do you like, how does your voice sound? Like, what’s the energy that you’re exuding? And when you when you create this kind of visualization, you’re pre paving the way of it happening. And it gives you the image, the, the, the idea of how you can be and you can step into it.

Alison: What a different thing than saying this is going to be terrible.

Linda: Yes, it’s quite different. And but, I love that you bring that up because the thing is we’re always mentally rehearsing, but we’re often mentally rehearsing the things we don’t want.

Alison: Yes.

Jean: So excuse me. That is so true. We’re so accustomed to going to the negative, you know, and and somewhere in, in, uh, your writings, you said you have to stop and take time, take a pause. Because we’re on automatic. These fears are like, automatic. And it’s like, wait a second, I feel triggered. What’s going on here? Asking the questions, being curious.

Alison: And a negative self-talk.

Jean: And the negative self-talk.

Linda: Yeah yeah yeah.

Alison: Do you still have that voice in your head?

Linda: I have, I do have some voices that I like, just for a number of years I’ve been working with this particular line that goes through my head that I feel like finally, just this in the last couple of months, I’ve turned it around. And it is. Linda, you’re so slow.

Alison: Mhm.

Jean: I have the same thought. Linda.

Linda: You do?

Jean: I feel like I, I’m slow. I’m so I feel like I surround myself or have surrounded myself with very quick people and I feel I process things slower.

Alison: Is that what you’re saing?

Jean: Is that what you’re saying?

Linda: Well it’s like I felt like it took me four years to write my book. It’s taken me ten years to kind of like get my business, you know, organize the way I want it to be. It’s taking, you know, I just feel like I used to feel like everything took me more time. Takes everybody. Well, maybe not everyone. Just like you’re saying. Maybe not everyone. But it takes. You know, I listen to my husband and his business, and he and his brother who run it, uh, have a joke of, oh, if we think it’s going to take two months, it’s probably going to take two years, right?

Alison: Right. Yeah.

Linda: So the and but for a long time I couldn’t tell if that was a mean thought, if that was my inner critic or if that was just fact because it felt like fact to me. But I know it’s it’s not because and I think I was even writing about it in the book, but I still hadn’t kind of gotten a handle on it. I would say, okay, let’s I do something called the Best Friend test. You might have do some version of this where you say the sentence out loud that you think is an inner critic voice, and you put it in the same sentence as someone you care about. So I use my daughter Lexi. So, Lexi, you’re so slow. I wouldn’t say that to her.

Alison: No.

Linda: I would say if she said, I feel like I’m so slow, I’d say, well, actually, I would give her all the reasons why it could be a good thing. Like, maybe some things just take more time. Maybe you need to marinate on it. Maybe, you know, there’s some other pieces of information that you need before you can move forward. Or, you know, it can be any number of things that we can find the best way of feeling. But it is my commitment to always find the best way of feeling. It’s just like sometimes it’s slower.

Jean: I love that. That’s great Linda.

Alison: And I love that you said, uh, I didn’t know if it was fact or a bully in your brain. I wonder if I have said that to myself. Oh, that’s just a fact.  Alison, your whatever, you know, and that’s just a fact. Wow. I need to examine that, because that gave me chills when you said that. So that means that that’s something important for me. That’s fantastic. Linda. That’s great. And that’s true. I always try to think I. Jean, would never say that to me. My husband would never say that to me. My kid would never say, you know, you’re whatever. And I think, so why am I saying it?

Linda: Yeah. Yeah. You know, and this, this comes up like, right now I’m just finishing up a short program called Watch Yourself on Video without cringing, which is all about transforming the inner critic. And there are things that we see. I mean, what I love about it, again, the gift, the inner critic has a gift in it, in that it’s showing us what we need to resolve and do better. So there’s nothing like watching yourself on video to bring up all the things that you dislike, you know? Yeah, but you look the way you’re moving, the way you talk, whatever it is. Right? And so it’s an opportunity to examine those things and and see. So what I do is I sort I have people sort their complaints, their dislikes into the things that can be changed and the things that can’t. The Dalai Lama has this beautiful wisdom that says, if something can be remedied, why be unhappy? If something can’t be remedied, why be? What’s the use of being unhappy?

Jean: Yeah, leave it to the Dalai Lama.

Alison: Yeah.

Linda: Yeah.

Alison:  that’s a great quote.

Linda: And and and so at the end, I think it’s actually today, which is day nine, it’s a ten day program. Um, we’re looking at why we honor the inner critic for that very reason. Because without the inner critic, we wouldn’t realize that we’ve got stuff to work on.

Alison: Yeah, yeah. That’s right.

Jean: Exactly.

Alison: And can people find out about your programs on your website?

Linda: Oh, I wish they could do a better job of that. I wish I did a better job, but, you know, I’m slow.

Alison: I don’t even believe in time. So I don’t think you’re.

Linda: Maybe when it. When is this podcast coming out?

Alison: Oh. I don’t know.. Probably the end of the year.

Linda: Okay. So yes, they’ll be able to go to my website and find these things.

Alison: Okay, great.

Jean: Well, I think when you’re slow, you’re very thoughtful.

Alison: Me too. I don’t think they’re slow.

Jean: Yeah. You just really want to make sure everything is good.

Alison: Yes. That’s right.

Jean: I like that reframe. I like that very, very much. There’s one one other thing that I really wanted to bring up that I did talk about in the book, and I am talking about it in this class, and I want to bring it up here because it’s kind of like a bigger picture idea. That is, who benefits when we don’t like ourselves, who benefits when we are afraid to speak up?

Jean: Wow. That’s great.

Alison: No one.

Linda: Maybe someone, but it’s not us. It’s not the people that we’re serving. Maybe it’s the people who want us to behave, or want us to be controlled, or want us to buy things or… But it’s not us. And so I feel like it’s a radical act to learn to love ourselves and to empower ourselves.

Jean: Absolutely.

Alison: You’re dynamo. Huh?

Jean: Yeah.

Linda: Oh. Thank you. Great.

Alison: It’s really fun to talk to you.

Linda: It’s great talking to the two of you.  Oh, my gosh… This is such a treat.

Alison: Who benefits from me not liking myself. Not me!

Linda: And the thing is, it keeps us held in.  You know. So you know, I’m aging too. Zoom does a beautiful job. And, you know, perking us  up a little bit. I also put on a little makeup, but I, i suffer or have suffered from the changes of my body.  Um. And I think, why am I suffering when my daughter looks at me and she thinks I’m beautiful? When my husband finds me attractive, when other people light up because they’re, i’m their friend and they’re happy to see me. Why should I make myself unhappy about myself?

Jean: Exactly.

Alison: Yeah. You know, when my kid was really little and, um, uh,  ran up to me and grabbed me from the back and gave me a big hug and said, mom, I love your big, fat, beautiful bum.  and I gotta tell you, I loved my bottom so much that this little squirt of a person just grabbed it with so much love and didn’t, didn’t, didn’t have any judgment. Yeah, like there was nothing wrong in that.

Linda: And how did that change you? Like, how did how do you feel like you hold yourself and your awareness of your bum now.

Alison: Right. Want to see it? No, I’m just teasing. It’s I, you know, I, I really have not done anything to change my aging because I think I want my kids to see what someone looks like, an Italian person from the Bronx looks like when they’re 80. I just want I think it’s important and I and I don’t mind it … but but I know a lot of people that are like, you know, if you just did Botox, you could really if you just did this or that, and that’s good for them. If it makes someone happy, I love that. But for me, I don’t want to be, i’m not going to pressure someone not to do it, and I don’t want to be pressured to do it.  I want us all to be loved and respected where we’re at. And so I gotta tell you, when Em said that to me, it changed my view. Like, oh, I’m fine.

Linda: Absolutely, absolutely. And it’s kind of like, I feel like we’re we’re able to radiate our beauty. Yeah, we’re able to radiate our energy more when we don’t feel like we’re trying to hide in plain sight.

Jean: Right, right.

Alison: And I know a lot of people that have, have, have done things and they really look lovely. But I think the thing that they really look is confident again or like, um, glowy or more relaxed, like, I’m not sure it’s the fact that I respond to the fact that wrinkles are gone. I more respond to the fact that they did something that they wanted to do.

Linda: And and it gives them a sense of confidence and makes them feel more beautiful. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Alison: And good for it. You know, I think that that’s I think that’s so true. I love that best friend test.

Jean: Oh. And you and I do that for each other. Yes. If you can have a best friend that that you can say this is what I’m thinking and they can go wait a second here, why don’t you reframe it and, um, well, Linda, I feel like your book is it’s such a self love, spiritual book. It’s, uh, a coaching book. You know, you offer.. No matter what you’re where you’r what your bag of rocks are or whatever you absolutely give give a way to release that. Transform it. Yeah. So, um, we’re so grateful.

Alison: And we’re so grateful that you wrote it.

Linda: Well, thank you so much for having me on. So we can chat about these these ideas and transformations. It’s, you know, I feel like speaking, expressing ourselves is our human design.

Alison: Yeah.

Linda: You know, children love to speak. And I feel like that’s my passion. I want people to feel like, happy with their voices as they were when they were little kids.

Jean: Yes. that’s a Gorgeous mission.

Alison: That’s beautiful.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: And we just have two questions as we as we wrap up. And the first one is, is the name of our podcast is Inside wink. What do you think inside wink means?

Linda: To me it’s kind of like a sense of amusement.

Alison: Oh.

Linda: And and I would liken it to if I could, connect it with public speaking.

Alison: Mhm. Sure. Yeah.

Linda: That we can allow ourselves to be imperfect with that inside wink with that little like, forgot the word, forgot what I was going to say, lost my place, you can have an inside wink.

Alison: Oh I love that.

Linda: And and it helps you just like, know that not only is it okay that you made a mistake that you can handle it with. I mean, everyone makes mistakes. It’s how you handle it that makes a difference. And if you handle it with that sense of amusement, then you’re good to go. And also you make yourself so much more relatable because as humans, we that’s where we connect is with these frailties and and imperfections. They make great stories, right?

Alison: Yeah. That’s right.

Jean: Because we’re not all robots.

Alison: That’s right.

Linda: No, we’re not ChatGPT.

Alison: Oh no we’re not.

Jean: And my final question for you, Linda, is do you prefer cake, pie or ice cream?

Linda: Pie. If it’s fruit.

Alison: Oh, wait, you mean like, supposed to like like, uh, chocolate cream pie.

Linda: Exactly.

Jean: a custurd?

Linda: Oh, yeah. I like a custard. I have a pawpaw tree. And I was thinking, oh, I wonder if I could make, like, a pawpaw pie. Like a pumpkin pie. But, you know, as a custard. Yeah.

Alison: That sounds great. Okay, we’re coming over. We’re coming to Bedford.

Linda: You’re welcome. You’re welcome. Next time you’re in town, you gotta come over. I love cooking for people.

Alison: Really?

Linda: Yes.

Alison:  that’s like you, Jean .. She’s a great cook.

Jean: I used to. I don’t cook anymore. I mean, I don’t have, like, people…

Linda: Gene.

Jean: Yeah, yeah I know, thank you.

Linda: say thank you.

Alison: Linda, move in with us.

Jean: Honestly.

Linda: No disclaimers.

Jean: Thank you. Thank you. Allison. Thank you Linda.

Alison: Thank you Linda. Really. This is so much fun.

Jean: You are the delight in the light, as the light. Yeah.

Linda: Well, I, I, I hope to be swimming with, with all these, you know, wonderful people who are, you know, like yourselves who are looking to create a better world.

Alison: Oh. Thank you so much. And in a few years, when you write your next book, we’ll have you on again.

Linda: Okay.

Alison: I would love that.

Linda: Okay. There’s some motivation for me.

Alison: That’s right. Have a great evening there. And thank you so much.

Linda: And thank you as well. Bye Jean, bye, Alison.

Jean: Bye.

Alison: Bye.

Jean: What a lovely woman.

Jean: She was Is great. You know what, Allison? She reminds me so much of, um, the teachings that I learned at Science of Mind -about expressing to yourself why? You know, what’s going on underneath the fear, right? And it’s getting to the root of that rather than just pushing through it. Because Linda’s not about pushing through it, but uncovering what’s, what’s that core wound.

Alison: What’s at the root of it? Right. You know, the reveal and heal and then restoring safety and then repatterning your habits. Right? And I have to say a lot of times, because for me, fear is like, can grab me that sometimes I want to ignore it or push it away or act like, uh, give in to it. And this was just such a great way to remind myself that there’s other there’s other options out there, you know?

Jean: Yeah. And how good you feel after you do. Um, present yourself authentically. I think your life starts feeling richer And more fulfilled. And, um.

Alison: And she talks about thriving.

Jean: Exactly.

Alison: And I think what a great word. We don’t use that word enough. It’s all just like getting by. Let it be. Let it go. What about thriving.

Jean: And I really think that’s how we’re meant to live life. And, uh, so.

Alison: And letting go of, you know, working through these things, working through them because we’re worth it.

Jean: Yeah, We are worth having a life that we can thrive in and feel joy. Absolutely.

Alison: I think that’s I think that’s so important because sometimes you think, oh, is this it? Yeah. Is that all? Is that all there is? as  peggy Lee said I’m dating myself, but she. I thought she was fantastic, So please, please go out and read her book. Delight in the limelight. Even if you’re not like, like public speaking or in the limelight, right?

Jean: Because it really helps you just live a more enriched life.

Alison: Right? Right. Yeah, exactly. That was beautifully put, Jean.

Jean: Thank you. You too. Allison, I’m just looking at the cover of her book.. She’s so vivacious.

Alison: Isn’t she, like, spunky?

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: Yeah, like a spunkathon… Is that even a word? Well. Thank you. Have a great day. And thank you, Jean.

Jean: Thank you, alison.

Alison: Goodbye.

Jean: Bye.

 

Alison: Don’t make me laugh already. Okay.

Jean: Alrighty. Well,

Alison: Here we are.  Here we are again. And today, um… Well, first of all, little buddy’s here.

Jean: Yeah, but he just left the the, uh, closet, so we’re  good, and, uh, so today we get to speak to a really wonderful, beautiful person, her name is Bonnie Yee.

Alison: If you say so, i don’t know her. You know her?

Jean: Yes. I met Bonnie on a trip to Egypt when my son Matthew and I went to Egypt in April…. Oh, no. No, it was March of 2022, and, um… And I…

Alison: You hit it off

Jean:  yeah, we got along really well. And then we continued our friendship. And she has really, uh, grown into new spiritual gifts.

Alison: I love that.

Jean: SHe is going to share some of her experience and what it’s about for her.

Alison: Fantastic.

Jean: Yeah,

Alison: I have nothing else to say. Do you? Shall we do it?

Jean: Okay, let’s do it.

Alison: Here we go, here’s Bonnie.

Jean: Bonnie, Hi.

Bonnie: Hi.. How are you?  It’s good to see you again, Jean and hi, Alison… Nice to meet you.

Alison: Nice to meet you, Bonnie. I’ve heard such wonderful things about you.

Bonnie: Well, thank you. I’ve heard about you, too.

Jean: we are really happy you’re here with us today.

Bonnie: Well, I am so happy too. And I’m very grateful  for both of you. For taking, you know, taking the time to make this space so that people can have a place to tune in to where they can receive what they need. So thank you. Ladies, both of you.

Alison: We’re excited. I love I love your website and I, I love what you what you do And maybe you could just tell me, because I’m unfamiliar with you the way you know, jean knows you. Um. What began your journey? Like what?

Bonnie: Oh, goodness. Here. Uh, well, I was just reflecting earlier today.  it’s been like, 12 years. I just started getting little bits and pieces and hints. I was just normal, Jane, and I say just going through life. I had three children and a husband, and we co-owned a business. And just doing the day to day doing what I thought was, you know, what you’re supposed to be doing in this life, this world. Um, and I found myself, even though I had been successful in business and had acquired what most considered, you know, nice things and, and achieved, you know, a certain level, I felt unsatisfied, and I found myself feeling guilty for not being more appreciative. And that sensation became stronger and stronger. And that led to me just starting to ask questions, you know, what am I missing? What’s you know, what’s lacking? And I thought it was something to do with church or religion. So I asked about that. And instead of being guided to a church, I was guided to go within. And and then that led to and I wasn’t actively looking, i didn’t even know what that meant. But I found myself just being drawn to books, podcasts, YouTube. And that trail started, you know, that goes where you just take one step and there it goes. So I first I was guided to Doctor Wayne Dyer. Um, he mentioned Abraham Hicks. it just it was a trail that just went. And so I was learning, you know, how to meditate, how to, you know, uh, you know, apply the law of attraction, just, you know, the beginning, basic stuff.

Bonnie: And I didn’t, you know, have any, um, idea of where this was going or I just, you know, I knew that it felt good and it felt, you know, real. And so I just continued the trail. Um, but I it was a number of years of just kind of, you know, being in that place. I remember I got very lonely there because I didn’t know anybody else that I personally knew that was going through what I was. And my husband, bless his heart, didn’t get it. And so so he wasn’t really somebody I could talk through this with. He tried to, you know, be patient, but it didn’t always work. And so I one day I just said a prayer and I said, I either stopped this or bring me people that, that I can, you know, be with and share this with. And the very next day, two people that I already knew from way back when that I hadn’t seen for years, just appeared. One of them walked in to where I was at, and the other one texted me and both of them, and it was a sentence out of each one of us, and we automatically knew that we were on the same journey. And it was just so it was it was magical. So it just spent a series of just a long series of serendipitous things that have occurred. Um. Nothing planned. Nothing foreseen. Just surprises and and just follow the trail.

Jean: So, Bonnie, when. When I met you in Egypt. So you already were doing some reading on your own, right? You weren’t… Because that was just, like four years.

Bonnie: Reading as far as books?

Jean:  yeah, reading. You know, uh, Wayne Dyer and…

Bonnie: Well, yeah… There was a series of events that took place about seven years ago. My eldest son left this Earth, and that was catastrophic. And and so I had these points where I was thrust into more accelerated awakening. It was slow going for a number of years. But yes, I was reading, i was listening to things. I wasn’t actively doing anything with it, but just observing it. And and it was fascinating. And I was curious as to why I was so fascinated by it, because I didn’t… It was outside… Nobody else in  my family, my realm. No one else I knew was was receiving this or interested in it. So it was it that was unique.

Alison: I think it’s so interesting that you said, um, uh, doing what I thought I was supposed to do and also that, um, you you felt unsatisfied because, I think that I think a lot of people feel that, I don’t know. Do you live in Idaho?

Bonnie: I do, yes.

Alison: Because I saw that on the website that your center was there. And I know here in LA there are so many people that are so successful.

Bonnie: Right.

Alison: And yet they have a real feeling, I think, of, um, discontent or or still this like odd external searching. Is that is that what you meant by?

Bonnie: Yes I spent 30 years chasing a dream, a material, financial, you know, I thought there was an end, you know, an end goal. And that once I arrived there, you know. Ta da!

Alison: Yeah.

Bonnie: And and it it didn’t matter how much I acquired, um, nothing. It just it wasn’t filling a void. And I felt guilty about that. I didn’t know how to deal with it,  so it wasn’t until I kind of started asking. Well, it was when I started asking, going within. Why? Why do I feel like this? That I started to be led to these other resources. And so, yeah, you can acquire all the bobbles and doodles and all the grandeur and, um, it’s it doesn’t feel for me, it did not fill that void, um, and and it wasn’t, and I can say this, looking back from where I’m at now, there is none of that material stuff, none of that, i want awards and accolades from a company, none of that, um, compares to what I feel now when I have the ability to help someone, to truly connect with someone, there is a just a beautiful, beautiful, loving, warm elation that you get when when you’re truly of service. And so I did ask, you know, I was asking for a while. Let me be of service. Let me fill my purpose, fulfill my purpose. And and so it just kept evolving.

Alison: So after you were doing the readings and things, um,  where did that eventually take you? Because what you’re doing now is so involved. Like, how did you make that leap?

Bonnie: I’m,  it was just none of it was planned here it was. I just found, I learned from what I was observing and reading about just to keep following your, you know, following the pull, following the draw, follow what feels… And so I got better and better at not resisting. I was a master resister. I was constantly. I realized now that all of my life I’ve been getting, you know, messages and hints. But I was, you know, it was to do things that were opposite of what everyone else was doing. And so I would push back from that and I would have a, you know, something would draw me in a certain direction. But then everybody else wanted to go over there, and I didn’t want to rock the boat or, you know, seem like the odd person out. So I would make myself go over there with them. And so I spent, you know, decades forcing myself to do what didn’t feel true for me. And I finally was able to let you know bit by bit, it wasn’t an overnight thing, but bit by bit you start, you know, letting go of that and just following your pull.

Alison: Bonnie, it sounds to me that you went through a period of, um, a hard time.

Bonnie: It was, Yeah. I first, um, Oh our, eldest son ended his life. It was sudden, no warning. And so that was a shock. And that day was a huge turning point. I, I was in a surreal, um, he, he, he communicated, he texted me goodbye and we raced out to where we knew he was and, um, found him and it, um, it was it’s just something you can’t even I, I won’t go into it.  But, I found, um, my husband and my daughter were with me when we found him. And there’s a just a trauma that, um… What was interesting is I could see how they were responding and reacting, and I went into a different space. I, um, it was as I, it wasn’t as though I was numb. It was an aspect of me– i was removed from the human body, and I was like a step back and I could witness and see all that was going on. But I was literally in a place of neutrality… It was really unique and strange. And I remember at one point, because people began to gather pretty quickly and there was quite a crowd. Of course, you know, the authorities, and I remember I was the only one that could communicate with them, answer questions, deal with them, because everybody else was just a mess. And I understand that. But I remember questioning myself going, what is going on? I thought, you know, I asked, am I in shock? I literally took my pulse and respiration. I went, no, I’m not showing symptoms. But I it was explained to me later that, well, what happened that day before that is, when I asked, you know what’s going on with me? Why am I like this? I immediately felt-  it felt, you know, you know, if someone holds you up under your arms and holds you up, i literally felt hands underneath, holding me up and hands on my shoulders. And I had a knowing that I was surrounded by angels… That’s all I can tell you. I just knew for a fact that there was an angelic team holding me up, and that got me through that day, and then it just carried it continued. And the things I was guided to, things to, like mantras— i was guided to say things and do things that would help me through this period, and also assist my husband, who wasn’t feeling well with it at all, and it was just looking back now, it was fascinating, it was a very difficult thing to go through, but fascinating. Later I was told by my higher self that I had this lifetime was I had designed this lifetime so that I would definitely fully awaken and I wouldn’t miss this opportunity in this one. And they went, what my higher self said was I had put measures in place. They said you had arranged for us to, you know, hit you in the head with one by ones. So these nudges I had early on were, you know, the smaller board, the one by one. And it said, and if that didn’t work, you’d put it, you’d put into place the use of two by fours. So we were using two by fours. And they said, and they said, and if that didn’t work, then you had  the final thing was you had arranged for a hit in the head with a 4×4.

Alison: Yeah.

Bonnie: And they said, that that day that your son left was the 4×4 in the head. And and that’s what there was no going back as far as. Not that I wanted to, but it was I was so quickly thrust into, um, receiving things and understanding things in my deepest grief. Um, about two months, 2 or 3 months after he passed, I was just in a really, really deep place. And he, I felt him for the first time. He came to me and wrapped himself around me. And we had about a 30 minute, um, conversation, engagement… Um, and when he left, um, he literally when we parted, um, he took my grief with him. It was just surreal. It was. And and he’s… Yeah. So. Yeah. So yeah, there’s been a series.

Alison: This brings tears to my eyes because the thought…that is so, it’s it’s just as very emotional and, and I look at you as being brave and and yet you seem so like me, like ordinary.

Bonnie: and I question, you know, why I was handling it, if you want to call it so well, I mean, yes,  there were many rough moments for a while, but when I was shown later or told later was that, I there was a choice. There was a crossroad when that happened, and because I was asking, why didn’t I go into that, you know, deeper grief that people normally do. And it said, because if you had gone down that lane, there was no coming back. And so, in a nutshell, if I, if I had gone the traditional, you know, really deep grief lane, I wouldn’t have veered back over to this spiritual awakening… So there was a choice that had to be made.

Alison: Did you feel, this might be a weird question, did sometimes I feel like, uh, in my life, there are reactions I’m supposed to have, And if I don’t like, like you obviously did not…. Is there a sense of guilt or anxiety that comes up during that choice?..

Bonnie: Well,yeah,  I questioned, I um, I question I wonder but also I.. Something inside of me told me, you don’t need to go there. You don’t. In other words, there was just, I know the encounter with my son and I, it was hard for folks that haven’t experienced to understand it. But when you’re I’m sitting on my couch and I feel something, I feel something electric coming at me and I question is I should or should I fear this? And as soon as I question it, the next thing I knew is , he put his head in my neck and wrapped himself around me. And you, you knew with every cell of your being that that was him. And and I literally put my arms out like I was… I held my arms out like this. You know, in a hugging position for 15 solid minutes. And normally I can’t hold my arms up that long. And there was no reason. I had no residual effect afterwards. I was not sore in the back. I wasn’t, you know, my muscles. I literally was in a suspended state and we had, you know, a hug session for 15 minutes. Conversation went on for almost a half an hour. It was all telepathic, but it was just the most beautiful, healing, cathartic thing. And so when you, um. —Oh, help me. What was your original question? I’m sorry.  haha

Alison: Sort of the the fear or guilt of not going a certain way and…

Bonnie: Yes, and you do. But but I had so many of these profound things, like I just described occur, that I knew that that there I knew he was okay. I knew, you know, he was he was in a good place. I knew, um, and, a he told me, he said, you didn’t do anything wrong. It was nothing you could have done. This was, you know, he was only going to live a live half life, he said. Originally that was his plan and it was going to be, if it wasn’t this way, it was going to be a car accident or illness or something. And so I was assured, I mean, it literally, um, so the only thing that I really struggled with was that other’s perception of how I went through it was challenging, um, because they didn’t like it.

Alison: Really?

Bonnie: Yeah. And people would ask, oh, how’s your son? And if I didn’t, you know, want to have to tell him he was gone. But if I did, their immediate reaction was to go into, you know, oh, you know, pity. And they would um, and they expected me to be, you know, something other than, you know, pleasant, you know, and and sunny about it,  for them, they needed me to be in that lower level. And I couldn’t go there. Um, yeah and so, so it’s been interesting navigating that it’s others expectations. But I learned just to stay true to what you know, my heart kept telling me this is right for you and I just learned in Egypt, Jean, I was on… we were on the Nile on that boat, and I was hanging over the ridge, i was leaning on the rail one day, just looking at the water, and and I wasn’t, you know, actively receiving things back then, but there was a phrase that went through my awareness that stunned me, and the words were, stop dimming your light so that it makes other people more comfortable. And then and then and then it added at the end of it and said, you’re done doing that. And it was a command is that you’re done doing that. And I was a changed person coming back from Egypt.

Alison: Wow.

Bonnie: For many reasons.

Jean: Yeah, yeah.

Bonnie: But um, but all I can say is when you get into the vein or the lane that’s right for you, there and just tune into that knowing, um, it is so powerful and and you just trust. I mean, I began early on, you know, talking to my angelic teams. I was, you know, in my readings, i learned to do that. So I just kept trusting the angelic teams and asking for their support and guidance. And it came and it came and it was beautiful. And I just learned to, I was part of what I learned was to let go of the steering wheel. I was shown in meditation, my hands just white knuckle gripping a steering wheel and fighting– you know, I’m trying to pull the wheel to the left and the wheels trying to go to the right, and I’m fighting it. And I literally was shown to let go of the wheel. In other words, my angelic team has the wheel. Stop trying to turn the car in the opposite direction because you’re making it too hard. And so I literally was shown take your hands off that wheel. You don’t have to struggle to go through this life. And and so when we begin following that inner knowing, it just it’s miraculous where it takes..like to Egypt and to meet, Jean.

Jean: I think it’s, like when you’re able to connect with the unseen side of life and I think many people are starting to be able to do that?  Right, Bonnie?

Bonnie: And I want to put it out there… I don’t, “channel the deceased here.” I mean, I’ve had my son come through  me and I’ve had Alex…and Yet my path has taken me in a different direction when it comes to tapping into…

Alison: What do you do now? Like where is your path?

Bonnie: Well, I started being drawn to modalities… So I first learned to do-  it’s called you know we call it energy alignment work. So it’s a kind of a morphed version of Reiki with additional things. So I first trained in that, was drawn to that. And um, just love that. So it’s hands above, hands on and just energy work and was having just profound experiences. And then I got diverted. I just get diverted on these trails and they come out of nowhere. And I got drawn to, um, Dolores Cannon. Have you heard of her in Quantum Healing hypnosis? Oh, that came on like a I was listening to an interview on Gaia. I heard two women talk about a book. I had to order that book right now. Pulled it up. Um, on audible of the 19 books she wrote. I think I devoured 15 of them in a month. I’m not kidding you. I was I go down these obsessive trails and it’s it’s but it’s actually it’s I can’t stop it. It’s just fascinating. And so and halfway through her books, something said, you’ve got to take the course. So sorry. I trained in quantum healing hypnosis and very quickly and then began practicing that. Shortly though after I was doing that, I got a download that said, um, you’re not going to be doing this very long. I went, what?

Bonnie: Then why did  I, you know, go through all this time and expands to, you know, to do this, cause I’m loving it. And it said, because it was just a means to get you to where you needed to be. And so with all these modalities, they’re a means. So what’s been shared with me as of recent is, that it literally I um… I came here, I’m a very, very old soul, I come here,  I hold a key, um, I hold a key, and it’s a key that allows people to… It unlocks a lock where they can begin their or continue their remembrance. And so it’s, there isn’t anything that I really actively have to do just being in their presence.   For the first year after my husband left, it was really odd. I would no matter where I went, I was running into widows everywhere. They would approach me grocery stores, post office. You know the bank? I was widows nonstop and I was put, you know, I was guided in a store to go down a certain aisle where I didn’t need to be on, and it’s because there’s somebody down there and they would mention to me out of nowhere, to a stranger, that they were a widow and having difficulties not dealing well with it. And I was there to-  you know, we could be engaged in conversation over pickles. And while I was with them for the 3 to 5 to ten minutes here they were getting energetic alignment and healing for what they needed just from my, my energy. And so yeah.

Bonnie: that’s the best way I can describe it.

Alison: if someone’s listening to this and they don’t live…. I kind of want to live in your produce. But if I’m not in like Idaho, is there something that you can tell them, that they can do on their own to sort of gain some traction and where you are?

Bonnie: Well absolutely here. Um, well, first of all, this this type of what’s happening is in the quantum field, it’s not, you don’t have to be local to someone or hands on with someone, or in their physical space to receive this. So just I’ll put it out there. We, you know, I do do things remotely too so, you know, through a phone call, through, um, zoom or through also, um, just it doesn’t even have to be, you know, face to face…. It can, you know, just a pre-arranged session. But, yes, there’s many things that people can do here for themselves here. Um, they can just start to start by asking. You have a higher self, do you all understand what a higher self is? So there’s you in…

Jean: Can you go over that?

Bonnie: Okay. So there’s we— I spent decades thinking that I was this little body human. And that’s all there was to me. And I’d been taught from, you know, religious training that I had, you know, a soul and that there was a, you know, a God force here that oversaw us and that we needed to behave in a certain way to be able to earn favors and be able to go to the afterlife that was desired afterwards. So I had that basic training that a lot of us have, and that got flipped on me. And there was a variety of things. I did go through the Course in Miracles after my son passed, and so that was a huge adjustment. You know, so but what I’ve come to understand is that we aren’t that basic human, and that’s all there is. We are a soul who’s decided and chosen to have a human experience, and the soul is just a part of the One, the Source, the God. And so we’re basically God incarnate in human form, having a human experience so that we can bring what we’ve learned back to the whole. And in order to have a human experience on this planet, which is a 3D planet, three dimensions height, width and depth, we have to be in a human bodysuit and it comes with five basic senses. You know, it’s the basic model. But what’s happening right now is that, again, things are shifting and we’re moving.

Bonnie: Some of us are moving out of 3D and into the higher dimensions, fourth and fifth dimension. And so we in those dimensions you tap into these higher frequencies and more abilities like sensory abilities come online. But what happens in basic human 3D? Um, you you just believe that you’re solo and alone and and that can be frightening and scary. And you have, you know, the ego mind that is trying to run the ship. And most people just stay tapped into that. And and so they have limited ability to get, you know, higher level answers. The ego can be very controlling and misleading because it’s very fear based. And so once you learn that there’s, uh, again, more aspects of you, so above, above you on the human level in 3D, there’s what’s called the higher self. And it’s you with Just imagine you sitting at the top of the trees in the forest and you’ve got a better view. So you can see above the tree line and you can see, oh, that’s a shorter route to get over there, or be easier if I go this way. And so it’s just the higher per view of you. And then after the higher self there is the Oversoul or Oversoul collective which is a just a higher,  each time it’s a higher per view you have, you’re closer to if you want to call, you know, the grand computer mainframe and so, so and then above that, recently in the last three months here I’ve discovered that above that is what’s called the Monad.

Bonnie: And I was introduced to my Monad. So I’d been for the last couple of years, I’ve been communicating with my higher self and probably the Oversoul too. I wasn’t calling it that. And so I would receive,  if I sat down and wrote a question and had a on a pad, um, I could get profound answers that I knew weren’t coming from human body because I didn’t know this stuff. I didn’t know even a lot of the words they were putting down. So I, and it became really fascinating to me to go back and read these. But so you’ve got your human in 3D with the ego, you’ve got the again, higher self, the oversoul. And then there’s the Monad. And what was explained to me is that the Monad is the highest level of your, if you want to call it higher self, before you get to the Divine. And the beauty of going to the higher levels is is there,  it’s not being filtered through the ego. So when you’re with the oversoul, it or you’re in the Oversoul essence here, you can still get ego interference. Does that make sense? So the ego can still creep in there and kind of tweak or alter or misinterpret what they’re trying to deliver because they aren’t speaking to you in terms of words, it’s just a download impressions. Yeah, it’s all frequency. And when you get up into the again Oversoul, it’s a little less, you know, ego involved.

Bonnie: But it was explained to me that once you’re with the Monad, you’re communicating with a Monad, there is no ego involvement. And so the difference that I’ve noticed since it, you know, allowed me to function at that level is the beauty and the purity and the love and the, the, um, the way I think is completely changed. Um, I’ll be texting somebody and I find that I’m backing words… I’m not doing it on purpose, but all of a sudden, a word, a word that I’m texting or typing in is being backed out at a, in other words, being inserted, and it’s and I go, oh, well, that’s a more beautiful way to explain that. And so they’re kind of, you know, helping course correct, you know, my language. But it’s just it’s the most loving, comforting, peaceful, um, knowing. And so I encourage everyone and everyone here, anyone can, can elevate to these levels here. It isn’t a hierarchy thing? It’s just a bandwidth is what it is. It’s just like tuning a dial. And the best way to do that is through meditation. Um, you going in and quieting and and also set the intention. Um, set the intention. Uh, there’s a quantity of books, there’s podcasts, there’s tons of stuff on Gaia TV. There’s resources out there, there’s practitioners, there’s, um, so you just you have to if you ask, what’s the best path for me, go within an asset or set that intention before meditation.

Bonnie: Um, and you’ll be you’ll be guided. The most common thing, when I do the quantum healing hypnosis sessions with clients and a very common question that they have me ask their higher self — in those sessions, you come with a list of questions that you want your Higher Self to answer for you, and then you’re the channel for your higher self. So I’m the facilitator that just ask the questions and then you channel it for yourself under hypnosis. And the most common question is am I on the right path? What is my spiritual path? What can I do to improve or better? You know, this experience and the number one thing that the higher self mentions is meditate. And yeah, meditate and people aren’t meditating enough. They’re not doing it regularly there. Yeah. And it’s become literally a, a it’s not only a daily but multiple times a day for me. And it doesn’t have anything lengthy. But eventually what happens when you practice enough, is that you literally can become just a walking, constant meditation, if that makes sense…. But yeah, so it’s not like you don’t have to formally go into things. You can just it’s like you can just turn a switch and you can shut down the monkey mind and just go into, yeah, and you’re able to tune in and then you can receive the most profound guidance. And, and what it’s done for me is it releases fear, because I didn’t realize how fearful I was all my life because I didn’t, you know, I felt so alone and so inadequate and so incapable on my own. And so it’s been a big shift since my husband’s left, and I’m. And, uh, but but being alone is also helped me to have that quiet.

Jean: Yeah.

Bonnie: that Quiet time. So hopefully that answers your question.

Alison: Yes. That was great. Thank you very much. Because I want to just make sure people know that it’s accessible.

Bonnie: Oh, anyway, I never could have imagined. I was told at some point that the path I was going to be going down, that I could not even imagine where it was going to go. And it isn’t done by any means here. This is an ever evolving thing for all of us, but mainly if we’re willing to be open and and to trust, um, to just trust that once you’ve had enough experiences and you’ve witnessed enough miracles. Um. you just learned that I can trust this. And so I’ve been sent, you know, Egypt was the first of the magical trips here, since then, I’ve been sent to…. in downloads, i’ll get told to go places. There’s a relationship that you can form with these higher levels of yourself, and it’s so beautiful and it’s so freeing and it’s so loving, and there is nothing to fear and there’s, um, it’s it’s you just know it. It’s so pure and so I encourage everyone, um, to, you know, first ask and then reach out and find resources. You’ll be drawn if you start asking.

Alison: And I think what you said earlier about trusting and, you know, letting go, um, I think that’s I think people can do that and, and, and the fact that you were open and sending love to people, I think we can do that without even being there.

Bonnie:  You don’t have to know what you’re doing.  Just, you know, you literally,  I have a practice every morning the first thing before I get out of bed, the first thing when I’m awake, I. I start, um, saying I love you to myself. Because that is so… Most people do not love themselves. They are, you know, they think atrocious things about themselves, and so I lay there and I say, I love you and thank you to myself until I feel it, until I feel it. And there’s a point where you get emotional. And so I feel it. And, and I also I just make the statement, I say, I wonder how happy I’m going to be today?  Thank you.   And then I say, I wonder what wonderful new things I’m going to get surprised with today?  Thank you.

Bonnie: And so I’m setting the tone for,  I’m going to have a happy day and a day of surprises. And they’re beautiful surprises. And if I do desire something, I will, you know, I’ll say I, you know, bring me this or something better, because what happens is I don’t even know what the best version of this thing is. And I’m limiting myself. We all are, if we, you know, well, I need that, you know? Um, if we if we say, well, I desire this, bring me this or something even better that’s out there and you’ll be amazed at what you get that..

Alison: You’re a lovely surprise for me today, Bonnie.

Bonnie:  Well, I am just so, so, like I said, so happy. Um, you know, for everyone that’s able to tap into this, this journey, I encourage it a spiritual awakening, i will be up front, it can, um, be very messy, uh, but also very miraculous. And you have to be willing to go through the messy periods. And by messy, there’s a lot of shifting and adjusting that we have to go through. And it’s because our whole belief for me, my whole belief system, I was trained, I was trained to be afraid. Um, not only my family, you know, did that, you know, not intentionally, but that’s, you know, be a good girl or else.. I need to be a good girl, otherwise there were going to be consequences. And. And I’ve come to understand that, no, there’s no right or wrong….. It’s just there’s experiences and we’re here to learn. And we are loved unconditionally. When you tap into in these higher states,  we can all tap into source God, you know, the creator, whatever you want to call it, we can tap into and actually connect into that. It’s the most electrifying, beautiful, loving. If anyone gets a chance to, you know, work with Doctor Joe Dispenza and his work, I got to go to one of his seven day seminars and just had the most profound experiences there. But you you tap into a that that source level, and there’s a love that we don’t experience in the human realm, but you can tap into it through deep meditation, and he teaches that. So it’s profound and it’s it’s life changing. And you realize, yeah, that we don’t need to suffer.

Alison: Yeah,

Jean: Right.

Bonnie: There’s no need for that.

Alison: So I think the other thing you said that’s so perfect is you don’t have to…. The best thing that you feel is when you’re in service that can pull people out of, uh, anxious feelings, depressive feeling like if you’re serving someone or helping someone else, I think that’s like a miracle.

Bonnie: It is. It’s  the best way. Just it takes your focus off of yourself and you get and you’ll completely, yeah, be removed from whatever you were dwelling in, is to go and serve others and just and and do it without expectation of anything in return.

Alison: Yeah.

Bonnie: Just give from the heart and and just lose yourself in it. And so that that’s what makes you know, I didn’t foresee,  I had a business in a space and it got converted to this, you know what it’s called, Oasis of Light Healing Center. I, I was told this was going to happen. I couldn’t even imagine how it was going to. And then how it unfolded was surreal. And and it’s, it’s now um, it actually has been what I’ve been shown and told, and it’s turned into this physical space, which is a business, it’s a space and a business building. It’s been turned into what’s called a crystalline temple. I knew nothing about any of this stuff, but, so what it is, is, you know, the temples we went into in Egypt, Jean?  Uh, you know, you walk in and there’s just a reverence. You just you’re just awestruck. And you just stand there in silence because you feel something when you, but you can’t name it. Um, that’s what happens, is there… There’s grids that have aligned in those, there’s ley lines and grids that have formed at what’s called a crystalline temple. These are all very sacred spaces. And they had practices in there where they kept this going. So what’s happened, and not by my intentionally doing it, but this space that I’m in is, I’ve been informed, has become a crystalline temple. And, um, when people walk in, it’s stunning. They walk in and the minute they walk in, they can just walk in and just be in there and, you know, walking around looking or sitting there and they’re being worked on by the temple. It’s fascinating to watch people, literally, um, they just dissolve there, you can see their shoulders relax, you can see their face change.

Alison: like an exhale.

Bonnie: Is the UPS guy comes in with a box and he makes it like four feet in the door, and he just stops in his tracks and he goes, what is this place? The UPS guy that has no idea what’s going on feels the difference.

Alison: Yeah.

Bonnie: And so it’s been really, um, fascinating to watch this evolve. And I’m so honored I’ve been told that I’m the, um, basically the steward of this. And so my job is to is to keep it safe and protected and to, to help people that come in to be able to access what they need. So I, I’m very honored and I’m so grateful. And, uh, so.

Jean: I mean, you’re just such an emanation of pure love and light, and I feel the same about Allison.  And, um.  It’s just truly a blessing to be to be together here on this very, um, this powerful time of transition. And, uh, and that part about trust and surrender, we really can’t control the outer, it’s it’s out of our hands in a and we can only stay in our truth, stay in our love, emanate that and and know that that in and of itself is is so powerful.

Bonnie: When we work on ourselves and heal from within, it’s not just us we’re affecting… It ripples out where we’re at, and you don’t have to even understand it…. just trust it. Yeah.

Bonnie: There’s so many miraculous things that that will occur, so it just just it frees you. We we have been trained to believe that we’re in this space of limitation and constraint and and it’s not. We are the creator of our reality. And we can we, you know, by trusting we can we will be guided. Just ask.

Bonnie: And yeah ask. And there was a little parting message that my higher self had given that they wanted to share…is it okay I share this real quick? They want folks to know that, no one is lost, you aren’t lost. So if you’re going through spiritual awakening, you’re not lost. Don’t be afraid of it. Um, you’re actually recalibrating. Everything about your awareness has to shift. And so there’s going to be a lot of chunkiness that goes on in that,  but just trust that you will come out of it here. Um, far better, uh, with a clear understanding here also that everything you’re seeking is already within you. It’s already within you. It’s whispering at you here so it’s safe to listen to it. Trust that inner knowing you’ve always had it. You just have been trained to tune it out. So start trusting it and asking for it to speak louder. I used to say, please speak loud enough and clear enough that I can hear you and understand you , shouted at me if you have to.

Bonnie: I don’t want to miss anything yeah…. So just start to have conversation. Talk. Talk to your higher self and your inner knowing. Like you like we’re talking… And  it’ll speak back.  Yeah.

Jean: That’s great.

Alison: We usually do two end questions.  And our first one is, um, what do you think our our podcast is called Inside Wink. What do you think that means?

Bonnie: Uh, well, I asked my higher self a little earlier, so here’s what I have… Because it was more eloquent than what I was going to say. So it said,  inside wink is that subtle moment of knowing we share with the universe, like an inner nod or smile that says, I see you, I feel you. I understand it’s the quiet connection between souls and the reminder that there’s more going on than meets the eye.

Alison: Oh, yes. Bonnie.

Alison: Fantastic.

Bonnie: Well, I thank my higher self for bringing that through. Okay.

Alison: That’s right.

Bonnie: I can send it to you.

Alison: That’s beautiful.

Jean: Oh, that’s so beautiful.   And I have probably the most important question –  You know, riveting question. Do you prefer cake, pie or ice cream?

Bonnie: That was a tough one, because I love them all. But it came through the other day. It was and  it’s mint chocolate chip ice cream!

Jean: And that is what I have in my freezer, Bonnie.

Bonnie: Oh my gosh.

Jean: You have to learn to bi-locate

Alison: That’s right.

Bonnie: Oh my. Gosh. Well, after  that came through I ended up buying a tub. And unfortunately, Jean,  ate the tub already.

Bonnie: So….But it was a mint chocolate chip.

Alison: I love that.

Alison: Thank you so much. You’re such a treat.

Bonnie: Oh, well.  Thank you. Thank you. So I can’t wait to meet you in person someday, Alison,

Alison: I would love that, I would love that.

Bonnie: Thank you again, Jean. You’re so shiny and bright and both of you, and so it translates very well. So. Thank you.

Bonnie: Oh, what an honor.

Jean: We love you. And thank you for all that you’re doing.

Bonnie: well, thank you for what you do. So take care.

Bonnie: Alrighty.

Alison: Talk Soon. Bye.

Alison: Oh, I really enjoyed her.

Jean: I thought you would.

Alison: Right? Yeah. I just really enjoyed her. And she’s just like, um, an every woman. And yet really, um, has really done, like, a 180, right?

Jean: But, you know, she, she said some really key points. I love that she said to follow what makes you what interests you? And and it takes such courage to break free from the pack that tells us what to do to be good, a good girl, or whatever that means, or be, you know, be anything than just what truly lights our own heart.

Alison: Exactly. And sometimes I feel myself going, oh, you know, no, you really should do this. Yeah. And maybe I don’t need to listen to that. Maybe I can just really ask, you know, and I love that she says what surprises her in store for me today?

Jean: Yes, Alison.

Alison: What good surprises. I love that, right?

Jean: Right. And I think, um, you know…It’s so great to know that there is a force for good that we can access and that it just takes asking, right? You know, like, please help me with this situation, right? You know, and.

Alison: Just the way I would ask you, I can ask me or and I can ask my higher self. Yeah. Right.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: I love that. So in case you’re busy.

Jean: In case I’m busy,, okay…Then go to the Monad, if I’m too…

Alison: exactly.

Alison:  That’s right. Well, we hope you enjoyed Bonnie. We really, uh, she’s very special. And we hope you can take some tips.

Jean:  yes.

Alison: and Relax into your own gifts.

Jean: Absolutely.

Alison: Have a wonderful day.

Jean: Have a great day.

Alison: Bye.

Alison: Hello!

Jean: Hello all out there in podcast land!

Alison:  hello. Here we are. Um, I want to tell you something. I found a little lame duck in my street, and, um, all my my kids were so great. My husband was so great. People that stopped were so great. The neighbor whose property we were on, who I had never met, was great. Other people. And it just made me go, I love people like everyone just got involved.

Jean: No one was giving you recipes for duck a l’Orange?

Alison: No.

Jean: Okay.Good.

Alison: No. No one was like, you know, I’ll take it. Dinner? No, it was great. And we found a rescue for it, which is the California Wildlife Rescue up in Calabasas. And it was just- I just felt like it. I don’t know, little moments like that make me so happy and renew so much for me.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: Do you know?

Alison: I love that you share that. Because it is those those little moments. I mean, I know a lot of us don’t ordinarily lose, you know, find a duck on the street.

Alison: Or lose a duck.

Jean: Or lose a duck. But it’s it’s when you notice the goodness within others.

Alison: I know everyone was eager and came over, so I just wanted to just put that out there that I was so impressed by people and and like, just like this show, like this man today that we’re going to be interviewing…. Stephen Schettini, correct?

Jean: YES

Alison: And, uh, his, um, website is about being an inner monk.

Jean: Yeah. He was in a monastery for eight years, and we’re going to hear about his teachings, the tools he he uses to help people live a more happy and fulfilled life.

Alison: So that’s fantastic.

Jean: It is.

Jean: Who it is who can’t use that i mean, I think I heard him say actually that his, um, his mission is to just help others and.

Alison: Be in the world.

Jean: Be in the world,

Alison: Which is what I kind of love. Yeah,

Jean: I’m looking forward to it.

Alison: Me, too. I can’t wait. Okay, here he is. Here’s Stephen.

Alison:  Hi.

Stephen: HI, Nice to meet you.

Jean: Hello, I’m Jean,

Alison: And I’m Alison.

Stephen: Hi, Jean. Hi, Alison. I’m Stephen.

Alison: Hi, Stephen. Hi. It’s so nice to be able to talk to you.

Stephen: Oh, this this is very fun for me too. So I love being a guest on podcast because I get to meet so many different people from so many different backgrounds who ask me completely different questions.

Jean: Yeah, sure.

Stephen: Yeah. I like to be challenged.

Alison: Oh. That’s great.

Jean: Yes. And you are calling in from Montreal?

Stephen: That’s right.

Jean: Okay, great. Great. We’re in California.

Stephen: Yeah.

Jean: Yeah.

Stephen: So I figured that out at 2:00 when I thought. Yeah.

Jean: I’m so sorry about that… I mean.

Stephen:  we both forgot about it. It’s rather unusual because it’s always a preoccupation, isn’t it?

Jean: Yeah. But anyway, here we are. And that’s all that matters. And, um, we are both so onto and into your teachings of the inner monk. They they really are superb. And, um, why don’t we start off with a little bit about your background.

Stephen: Okay.

Jean: How you were raised and.

Alison: Yeah, because the way your, what your parents did is kind of amazing to me.

Jean: And then we’ll get further into to the interview.

Stephen: Okay. Sure. Well, my, my parents were rebels. I suppose my father was rebelling against the Mussolini, uh, because he was a teenager in Italy during the rise of Mussolini, and he wasn’t interested in that stuff at all. Um, and he’d also lost his father at a young age. So, anyway, he was a he was rather an angry young man. Um, he went through the the ritual, the fascists used to do that. If you didn’t agree with them, they’d forced you to drink a bottle of castor oil. Oh, so he went through that. And that was. That was when he left Italy. He joined his cousin in South America who was who had a lion act. Um, it wasn’t a circus. In those days, there were people who had acts, and they went on the street. They went on the road, and they just maybe they teamed up with a couple of other ones, and they built their reputation that way. So he did that for about ten years in south America with his cousin. And then by that time he was involved with the big circuses. He came back to Europe. Excuse me. And he toured with Bertram Mills Circus, which was the biggest circus in Europe at the time. And that’s where he met my mother, who had run away from a potential career as a post office assistant. And she wanted to be an acrobatic dancer instead. So I didn’t know these people the people I knew, had a very respectable Italian restaurant in the West of England. That’s where I grew up. But, um, I did see the publicity photographs, and I heard the stories, and that’s what fired my imagination. And, um, that made me think that life was for whatever you wanted to do with it. So It’s really up to you.

Jean: It doesn’t have to be like a cookie cutter.

Stephen: Exactly.

Alison: Right. Right. Right. So then, did that inspire? Did that inspire you, or was it. Did it, um, frighten you?

Stephen: Well, it that was my problem, I wasn’t frightened.

Alison: Mhm.

Stephen: I should have been because it inspired me to be reckless.

Alison: Yeah.

Stephen: I’d rather…to make decisions…. I wasn’t making decisions. I was just reacting to the next opportunity. Um, so I was also very unhappy as a child. Um, so the image of my father was fantastic, but the reality of my father was much more oppressive. And my, my main feeling towards him was fear. I was just afraid of him. Um, and I wanted to get away from him as quickly as possible and get away from the family. And that’s really what inspired me. Mhm. Um. To get away. Yeah. What inspired me to a spiritual path was, um. Well, my time in university, I was raised as a Catholic. Um, I didn’t like that very much. I went to Catholic schools, nuns and monks and all of that. Um, but when I got to university, then I decided to become an atheist, which didn’t last very long because there were still so many unanswered questions. So I delved into all sorts of things, and it seemed to me that Buddhism was probably most likely to answer the questions that I had in the way that I would relate to. Um, and by this time I’d hitchhiked to India and, um, I went through a lot of ups and downs. But I arrived in Dharamsala, which is the seat of the Dalai Lama and the Tibetans. And, um, they welcomed me with open arms and.

Jean: And how old are you about, at this time, you’re about, what, 20?

Stephen: I was 22.

Jean: Wow. Okay.

Stephen: Yes. Yeah. And other people like me and of my age and in my background.

Alison: And did you think I’m just going to do this for a little while, or was it this. It seemed as though this was a one way for you. Um, like you weren’t thinking, i’m going to go back or?

Stephen: I wasn’t heading somewhere. I was running away from somewhere. It’s different.

Alison: Yes, very much so.

Stephen: Um,  when I went to school and I went to school in London, I thought, well, this is it. Now I’m going to get my real education. I’m going to learn how to think and how to philosophize and all that stuff. And of course, what they taught me was how to pass exams, which didn’t excite me very much. And then I realized I was because I did social science degree. So I was lined up for a career as a civil servant or something like that, or an academic, and I, I realized I wasn’t I was interested in the subject. Very interested in people’s society, history, um, sociology, all those things still to this day. But in that formal academic setting, I wasn’t made for that. Yeah, I wasn’t, I wasn’t I wouldn’t have been able to to stay. I would have lost my mind. Yeah.

Alison: I love that you say you weren’t made for that because I think, um, right now there’s an issue with people feeling that they have to be a certain way. And, uh. And I love that you’re like you. You were like, I’m not gonna I can’t I can’t do it like that took a certain amount of bravery.

Stephen: Yeah, well, partly bravery and partly, uh, like I say, a fearless, a silly, a stupid fearlessness.

Alison: Right, right.

Stephen: Um. I never looked after my, uh, my career, my finances. Very, very well, in that sense, in a traditional sense. But that’s because I was also focused on not getting sucked into the into conventional life. Um, which there’s nothing wrong with it. In fact, after after the monastery, I left the monastery. I came to Montreal alone. I decided I had to start from scratch again. Um. And I had a terrible time for the first 20 years.

Alison: Wow.

Stephen: Um. And then I met my present wife, Caroline, um, who was extremely conventional. She’s a mother of four children.  she had a nice little suburban house. The whole thing, everything that i always avoided.

Jean: the white picket fence..

Stephen: Yeah, the whole thing. And and I was happy, and I couldn’t quite understand it. But I also decided I wasn’t going to run away from this.

Alison: Yes.

Stephen: Um, and it’s been it’s been the best. Uh. Well, now it’s 25 years. It’s been the best 25 years so far.

Jean: Lovely. That’s beautiful. Yeah.

Stephen: It’s not easy, it’s complicated… She’s a life coach now, which is wonderful. So we have we have a lot of conversation. We have a lot in common. She also suffers from MS. She’s had MS for 35 years now. Um, so that’s that’s an ongoing challenge. Yes. Um, yeah. It’s it’s something special to go through. I can’t say that we’re going through it together. Of course, she’s the one with the disease, not me. But, I mean, I’m with her every day. We, you know, we share the stories. We know what’s happening. Disappointments, the sadness, the all of that. And it’s a very powerful bond. I wouldn’t change it for anything. Yeah.

Alison: Yeah. Having a long term friend or a partner is really, I think, one of the most beautiful experiences in life. I agree that you really can look back on and say remember when. And really see the changes in growth in your relationship. You know that’s beautiful.

Stephen: If you meet someone like that. Yeah. But it’s not that common.

Alison: No, no,

Stephen: There’s a lot of people in um, at least in flat relationships, and sometimes they’re just unhappy.

Alison: Yeah.

Stephen: And people aren’t willing to to make the effort to change because it hurts, too. There’s nothing worse than a divorce… God… It’s horrible. But I understand why people resist. But sometimes you have to just make a break and change.

Jean: Right. That’s true. Yeah, it’s it’s great that you both found each other and that you both, uh, support each other in the in the way.

Stephen: It’s a real gift. Yeah.

Jean: Yeah. Again, piggybacking on what Alison said, a long term relationship.. It’s, um. If if you can be authentic and vulnerable in it, you can really grow very deep. Versus hopping around. I mean, you know, I mean, and everyone’s got their path, so no judgment. Yeah. Hopping around is good for some. And going deep is good for others.

Stephen: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don’t think we should get moralistic about it, for sure, but I agree with what you say. When you form a real bond with another person, a lifelong bond. It’s something else. It’s really different. You become a different person.

Jean: Yeah.

Stephen: Yeah. But you, like you say, you have to be vulnerable and you have to be open and it’s it’s work. (un transcribable)

Alison: It’s a lot of work. We both, Jean and I both have had long term relationships with Alex and my husband Dan. And, you know, it’s just a long you know, it’s kind of amazing because you can, you know, the age lines mean something different when you’ve been you’ve seen them arrive. Yeah. You know?

Stephen: Yeah. Yeah.

Alison: Can you tell me? So, living in a monastery, we used to discuss this in a class we used to take living in a monastery, i feel like, oh, they really get to be spiritual and peace. And how do I. How do I do that when I’m, like, looking for a parking space? You know, like in the in the world. This world. Right. And so what what was it like to live in a monastery? Yeah.

Stephen: Look, there are there are all sorts of monasteries out there. There are all sorts of Buddhism’s out there, for that matter. Just like there are all sorts of Christianity’s and Judaism’s. I mean, it’s, you know, um, but for me, the monasteries that I was in, they were the Noisiest, raucous places I’ve ever lived.

Alison: Oh my God.

Stephen: So let me tell you about who I studied with. I studied with the Galuppi sect of Tibetan Buddhism. They’re a very scholastic sect. And you’ve probably seen pictures of the debate. They have these very elaborate debate rituals every day. So,  the, monastery consists of, um, at that time there are about 100 adult monks there, about 500 boys, and they’re ordained as, uh, novice monks. And some of them are as young, the youngest one I saw who came into the monastery was three years old, taken away from their mothers and put in here. So it’s all male. Um, there’s a lot of kids. So you’ve got a lot of noise. You got a lot of energy. There’s a lot of teenage boys, so you got a lot of testosterone as well. And that that comes out on the debate ground. Um, the debating is very ritualistic, and there’s a lot of one person sits and the other person stands and throws the questions, and, and there’s spit flying and the voices are raised, and sometimes it comes to a fistfight. Um, so, yeah, probably not what you were expecting for a monastery?

Alison: No I was picturing real quiet. You know, we meditated from four in the morning till 11.

Stephen: Well,now that  is so in other monasteries. Yeah, that’s exactly what happened. I went to Sri Lanka for an extended retreat, and there we were in the forest and it was silent, and we were woken at 3:30 in the morning for breakfast. Um, had lunch just before noon, and that was it. The rest of the day was meditation, an hour of walking meditation, uh, an hour of sitting meditation, half an hour of walking meditation, alternating. Very intense, very quiet. All you could hear was the sound of coconuts dropping from the trees.

Alison: Wow.

Stephen: Yeah. It was really something.

Alison: Yeah.

Jean: I heard you say, Stephen, in an interview, that when you left the monastery, you left with a lot more courage and confidence.

Stephen: And I did. Yeah.

Alison: Why?

Jean: And how do you think that came about?

Stephen: Um. I think it was because, um, I had grown, I felt that I had grown. I didn’t feel that before from all my education that, you know, primary, secondary, even university. I didn’t feel that I was really getting anywhere, that I’d established anything or that I had any… I had no moral foundation. But with Buddhism, and this is a complicated thing to say, because I don’t consider myself a Buddhist anymore. But Buddhist Buddhism, in that context, and the way I studied and the people I studied with and the encouragement and the feedback I got, it gave me a sense of solidity. And it was from that time in my life, when I look back, that is the formative period of my life- in my 20s, which is a little strange.

Alison: Yeah.

Stephen: When I look back on my actual childhood, all I recall is confusion and embarrassment.

Alison: Mhm.

Stephen: Yeah.

Alison:  Embarrassment.

Stephen: Yeah.

Alison: Yeah.

Stephen: Well, you know, that’s a mild form of guilt isn’t it.

Alison: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Felt guilty. Yeah.

Stephen: So how was the troublemaker. I was a problem for my family and they couldn’t understand me, the couldn’t make heads or tails…. and I can understand why- I don’t, you know, I can’t fault them for it. I was a mess. Um, but, uh, yeah. So that’s  the way the confidence came from. And it’s been tremendous. In fact, it was for a while, going from extreme lack of confidence, um, I went to the other extreme, i became cocky.  Um, arrogance.   Yeah, I figured I had I, I knew what was going on. Yeah. You got.

Alison: Exactly. You got it.

Stephen: That’s it.

Alison: But when you’re just walking along and hearing the coconuts, I think, why? Why would you leave?

Stephen: Well, because it’s it’s not real.

Alison: It’s not real.

Stephen: It’s not real. And this echoes an episode in the Buddha’s life where he, um, he was he grew up very privileged. Okay? He came from a wealthy family. Uh, he was destined to take over from his father, who was the chief of the clan. So he was looking at a life of responsibility, and he’d have to make decisions, and he’d have to sentence people to punishments and things like that. And at the age of 29, he walked away from it. He lived the rest of his life homeless. Um. I’ve lost my thread now?

Alison: Why? Why would you leave?

Stephen: Um. So why do I leave the monastery?

Alison: Why would you? When you were describing walking along and hearing coconuts in choir.

Stephen: Sorry. Yeah. Thanks. Okay.. So the Buddha does all this stuff, and he meets a couple of teachers, and they train him, and they get so excited over his progress that they say, you know, please come and join us, you can be you can be the leader. And he said, no, it’s no good. And they say, what do you mean.. you’ve attained the highest possible state? And he said, yes, the highest meditative state, but then I have to come back. And then my knees hurt and my back aches and life is stressful. And so that to me is a very realistic story of the Buddha as a man. But when you talk to Buddhists, you get a different story, which is that he was the Buddha. He didn’t suffer from any pain.

Alison: Mhm.

Stephen: And but that doesn’t make sense , he had a body, right. He’s lived on this planet. Right? So of course he’s gonna he’s gonna stub his toe and he’s going to hurt. And  the stresses of life are real. Th,ey’re not imaginary. You can’t escape it by reaching a certain state of mind. You can escape it by closing your eyes and going into meditative trance. But again he said, no, that’s no good. I need something more, which is to maintain a meditative space through life, through active life, through this conversation, through every conversation, through a violent argument to to be present, to be aware of what’s going on and to understand it doesn’t mean to be perfectly at peace all the time. It does mean to be there, to be present, to be taking responsibility for your life. And that’s the that’s the greatest thing we can ask for.

Alison: And that’s what I really responded to. Looking at your interviews, reading all your things, it’s that  you are wanting me to be in my life, but also be, um, uh, peaceful? Or is that peaceful? . Maybe not all the time?

Stephen: Exactly. Well you can’t. Who’s peaceful all the time?

Alison: Right, right, right. And your idea that we all have an inner monk that almost made me cry. Like I found that so moving because I felt like maybe that’s something that I hadn’t, um embraced or allowed in as much. Could you, could you describe that a little bit for our for our listeners?

Stephen: Yeah. Well, I was trained, uh, in classical Tibetan and Buddhist, uh, psychology, among among other things. And, um, in Buddhist psychology, mindfulness is one of the 51 mental factors. Um, okay. So the mind says you’ve got your mind, which is just consciousness itself. And then there are 51 mental factors, such as happiness and guilt and, um, anger and these different things. So one of these, uh, fundamental mental factors is mindfulness. So when I hear people talk about mindfulness as if it’s, um, a method or it’s a tradition or a belief system, then I try and get them away from that. It’s none of that stuff. You don’t have to study it. You’ve got it,

Stephen: You just have to use it. And if you’re not sure what it is. Think about this. A few years ago, you were born, you came out of your mother’s womb, you took your first breath and you started to know things. Okay? You knew where you were. You know where the food is. You know where the warmth is. You know where the safety is. So you’re you’re gradually making sense of this world, not just the world. You’re making sense of your body. You don’t even know how to use your fingers. You know the babies when they’re doing all that. It’s so cool. They’re discovering them. They are pure mindfulness. That’s what mindfulness is. It’s not complicated. It’s very simple. They’re right present. And they have no choice but to be present because they have no experience. They’ve got no language, they’ve got no memories. They’ve got none of that. But as we grow and as we develop memories and the sense of identity and we build this sense of ego, then we get distracted by all the things that we have to do and all the things that we have to prove. And then we get complicated, and then we have to pay money to go and learn mindfulness. It’s crazy.

Jean: Yeah. I mean, I love that you say,That awareness attention is like a muscle. The more you can strengthen it. That’s so great. Do you think is is being focused and attention the same?

Alison: Yes. Yeah. And well focus is an extended attention.

Jean: Yeah, right. Do you notice the people in your class? Do they? Do they come to you with, um, attention deficit disorder or do you notice any of that?

Stephen: Oh, yeah. I that’s I suffer from that myself. That’s one of the reasons I started doing this. I wanted to get some control of my mind.

Jean: I love that.  And so you’re a teacher of meditation. Is that correct?

Stephen: That’s right. Oh, yeah. Mindfulness meditation. Yeah. Three times a week.

Alison: That you are for me, bringing up that mindfulness also is discovery.

Stephen: Absolutely.

Alison: And I’ve never thought that. I thought I thought mindfulness or mindfulness meditation was inner, was not discovery because discovery feels– I know they don’t exist, but outer in a way.

Stephen: Yes, I know what you mean, well it is. We’re learning to see ourselves in a more objective way. Right?  I don’t want to just be angry. I want to be able to see myself becoming angry. And I want to know what the triggers are. And I want to know if I’m overdoing it when I respond or if I’m doing responding appropriately, because anger is sometimes justified, you know, I read the news every morning, i get angry. If I didn’t, I, I would be upset with myself. There are things that we should be angry about. Right?

Alison: Right. So then what..

Stephen: Is the right and wrong? Sorry…

Alison: What steps do you take? Because we’re living in a time that, That is exactly what all our friends are saying. Like, how can I be, um, spiritual, peaceful, meditative, mindful and still read the news?

Stephen: You have to accept that being spiritual is not something separate from being material.

Jean: I love that you say that.

Alison: Mhm.

Stephen: Okay. ,It’s not separate. This is the problem with the, the image of the Buddha who’s always sitting in perfect meditation in complete silence, it’s very misleading. Um, in Asia Buddhist monks don’t meditate very much. Well they’re active. They’re busy. They look after the poor. They they study. They also, I mean, there’s lots of different things, but meditation is just one bit. It’s not the whole thing. And the whole point of meditation is not to isolate you from the world. It’s to be able to bring a little bit of that peace out into the world. It’s after you get up. That’s when the real work begins. And that’s where the transformation begins. Because if you’re sitting in perfect peace for an hour or for a day, or for a bloody year, when you come back, nothing’s changed.

Alison: Yeah.

Stephen: So we do have a responsibility to change, to maintain the world. Um, and things are…  bad people are taking control and they’re gaining the upper hand, and we can’t let that happen. Um, you know, some people will take up arms. Some people will just meditate, talk, encourage other people to resist whatever. We have to be involved to some extent, because this is our life. We created this. We allow this if we don’t challenge it.

Alison: Um.

Stephen: But we’ve also got to keep our balance. And so I also, you know, I read the horrible headlines and sometimes I read the articles and then I’ll watch a cat video, you know, but it’s…. Laughter is very important.

Jean: Thank you. Like Binki The Cat.

Alison: That’s right, that’s right. That’s one of my favorite.

Stephen: You’re a cat person. Um. We play. We watch TV, you know? I mean, it’s it’s important to find balance, but you’ve got to keep your hopes up. But you’ve also got to meet people and see people who are committed to, to a life of, of real value. Um, and that’s why I keep teaching, because,  that’s where I meet people. And that’s what keeps me positive, keeps me going. Uh, I believe in growth, and I think I think we can do better. Much better.

Jean: Like, when the mind is so active, it’s really hard to reach your full potential. I know for me, when I’m worried and my mind is looping over the same thing or the worry or oh, I wish I didn’t say that… Just just overthinking. um, I know the tools that I use and I wanted to ask you, what are some tools that you can offer our listeners when your mind just, you know, as you’re really worried or can you talk about that?

Stephen: Well, When that happens, okay, we’re talking about the 2:00 in the morning mindset, right?  when your eyes being open and….

Alison: Yes. Yes.

Stephen: Okay.  Well, when that happens, um, the biggest the mistake that most people make  is to fight with those thoughts. I don’t want you thoughts, go away- i don’t want you. And so you sign up for a meditation course and the teacher tells you, empty your mind of thoughts. So you’re sitting there trying to empty these thoughts away. And what are you doing that with? You’re doing it with other thoughts and you’re telling your thoughts to– it doesn’t make sense and you just get tangled up. So the the first rule of mindfulness, when you’re concerned about your thoughts and your rapidity of your thoughts. Is to watch them. Let them be. Let them come into your mind. Let them go out. Don’t struggle with them. There’s a knack to it. It takes a while to figure it out. It’s not difficult, but it’s unfamiliar. You just accept it, okay? I’m worried about. I teach a group of of, uh, cancer patients every week. Um, so we talk about anxiety a lot there, because once you’re diagnosed, then the anxiety is there for the rest of your life, one way or another. Um, and it’s this continual resistance. I don’t want this. I don’t. That’s the problem. When you can identify that mind in which you’re resisting and you can say, there’s the resistance. What you’re doing is naming different states of mind. You’re naming anxiety. You’re naming resistance. Your naming denial. As soon as you see the thoughts and you put a name on them. There’s an objectivity which comes. There’s a distance between you and those sorts. They’re not you. They’re just something that happens. That’s that’s how mindfulness unfolds. So it’s not complicated, but it’s not easy. It takes practice.

Alison:  When you say pass through, my thoughts want to stay and camp out and bring other thoughts in. Like my my thoughts sometimes just don’t go. Like it feels like… And are you suggesting that maybe it’s because I’m wrestling with them in my mind? Just see them and go, oh there’s that.

Stephen: Yeah. You see there, there there are different…. The practice of mindfulness comes in four cycles. Okay. You start with the body, then the emotions, then your thoughts, then your experience. Okay. So as you go through these cycles, you begin to see how your mind works, how your thoughts and your feelings are reflected in your body, in your posture, in tension, in your body. Anything like that. And you start to see how all of this is connected. So as you’re struggling with these thoughts, you can also bring your attention into the body and see how it’s expressed physically. So you’re looking deeper into it. So yeah I’m thinking about what’s going to happen to me, uh, you know, when I go to see the doctor next week. Um, and I’ve got a knot in my stomach and and I feel crappy, I feel scared. You start naming all of this stuff, and what you’re doing is, you may not be making those thoughts, those scary thoughts go away. But you are noticing and putting together these connections. You’re seeing how your mind functions  and as you become more and more familiar with that, you start to see things before they even really mature. You feel that something in your stomach or in your shoulders, you know, and oh, I’m angry. And you start to see those mind states in their infancy, as it were before. They’ve developed into this full blown series of thoughts that you can’t escape. You can catch it at an earlier stage where you can take a breath and let go and take another breath and let go, because whatever you let go of it will come back. But not quite the same way. Each time you let go, you’re strengthening your muscle of attention and you’re weakening the muscle of automaticity.

Alison: Oh, wonderful. Yeah, because that is that. That’s the automatic… I’ve worked so hard on that automatic response.

Stephen: Yeah.

Alison: Since Childhood. So yes, that’s exactly right.

Stephen: So I would expand on that a little bit, which is that, um, when I walk into a room and my nemesis is standing there looking at me, glowering, ready to kill me. Okay. I’m ready to respond because I know him. Okay? I’m he’s going to call me a jerk, and I’m going to call him something else, right? But if I’m present, i can walk into that room saying, okay, I’m going to see this guy, and he’s going to be standing there and he’s going to be looking for a fight, and I don’t have to respond to that. So I prepared myself. So I walk into the room, he calls me a name, I don’t respond. So what we’re doing here is, we got stimulus and we have a response and one triggers the other. But what I’m doing is I’m bringing my conscious attention into it, and I’m widening this gap so that even though he gives me the stimulus, I have now a choice I can choose– well, I could just strike back, but on the other hand, I could do something different this time, maybe shift the conversation. Maybe I can just turn around and leave. Or maybe I can say something different. Or maybe, yeah, I should call him a jerk. But the point is, you have, it’s that space that you’re widening between stimulus and response. That’s where the that’s where the opportunities arise.

Alison: Oh that’s fantastic.

Stephen: And you can change your reactivity. You can change the way you behave in the world. And that’s a transformation. You’re not turning yourself into a different person. You’re just no longer giving in to those habitual ways of being.

Alison: Yes. Jean and I have talked about, sometimes– if someone asks us to do something, we’ll say yes before they finish their question. And then sometimes we feel like, or I feel like, wait, what am I doing? Like, I don’t really,  I don’t really want to get in your car or I’m carrying you up a mountain, like…. And now, I just take a minute and try to say I have to think about it. Can I get back to you and just have it that.

Stephen: Yeah.

Alison: Allow me a minute. Because sometimes I –people would be like, oh, today, you know, you’re, you’re operating on my brain tumor… I’d be like, wait, what? What am I doing? You know, like and…

Stephen: This is the purpose of formal meditation. You know, I mean, you sit for ten minutes in the morning and you do your meditation. It feels good. And like I say, what happens next is what really counts. But the point is, you’ve you’ve made that little practice and you’ve you’ve reminded yourself that I have access to my breath any time of day, so that when you do come to a situation where you’re afraid of overreacting, you can do that, you can take the breath because, it’s still fresh in you, it’s still very familiar, and you identify with it in a very important way. So that if that breath is available to you, just one breath, it takes you back to that very familiar place where you can be clear and objective and you make better decisions.

Jean: Yeah. Right. Right.

Stephen: Yeah.

Jean:  And and I love again, i don’t know where I heard you say, but it you you become happy with inside, and the outside world isn’t so pulling at you. And you’re not, you don’t feel like a pincushion. You know, you have, um, congruent vibration within yourself. And, you know, the outside stimulus don’t have such a trigger on you. So, um, and you also speak about the consistency of meditation, which is probably where I drop the ball.

Stephen: Because that’s the problem. Yeah, that’s the problem for everybody.

Jean: Yeah. And I’m like, you know, doing it, and then for whatever reason,

Alison: Yeah,

Jean: I’m going to say like three weeks in, I’m like, oh, I’m especially if I’m traveling or if I just get very busy…

Alison: Yeah,

Stephen: I can do it tomorrow. We’ll do it tomorrow.

Alison: Exactly. Okay. But you’ve been eavesdropping, Stephen.

Jean: That’s right. You say the inner monk is finding value in your own self… That is so beautiful.

Alison: Yeah.

Stephen: If you find it, I mean, it is there for all of us to be a human being… Look, I mean, I hate those old stories where, you know, we’re the only ones with a soul, and all the animals are soulless and they don’t feel pain. But, we’re different in one way, which is that we can change. We can change our behavior. We can change the way we see. And that’s incredible. And it’s an opportunity. We can completely transform our automaticity. We don’t have to just be a series of habits. On the other hand, it is possible to live your whole life from cradle to grave as one habit after another. People do it all the time. It’s, um. Yeah, that terrifies me. That’s what really scared me more than anything else back in the day when I didn’t want to become a civil servant. Yeah.

Alison: You just you would just grow up to be a series of habits, and that would be one of them.

Stephen: That’s what I was afraid of. Yeah.

Jean: Mhm. Yeah. Yeah.

Stephen: And that can happen anywhere. And I swear to God that can happen in a Buddhist monastery too.

Alison: Right.

Stephen: Okay. It’s not different.

Alison: But you have habits now right. Yes. Or you have the picket fence like and and how how why why are those refreshing for you or inspiring.

Stephen: Well, it’s not the picket fence, which is refreshing, it’s me. Well, I am, or I’m not. Either I can look at it,  you know, the picket fence today is not the same as it was yesterday, right?

Alison: Mhm.

Jean: Right.

Stephen: There are always differences. Are you looking for what’s new? Are you looking for familiarity? You see, we do– the first thing a neuroscientist will tell you about the human brain is that it’s lazy. That laziness is part of the operating system. We’re always looking for shortcuts. That’s where automaticity comes in. Okay, so when you’re when you’re a child and you’re learning to build with bricks or with Legos takes you a long time just to put the first two pieces together might take you a few minutes, but gradually you get faster and faster at it until it becomes automatic. So automaticity is important because that’s how we learn, but also we learn things and then we don’t think about them anymore. So when you’re building up something with bricks, that’s one thing. But when you’re developing a relationship with somebody and you get into an argumentative state where you get stuck, where it’s not just an argument, but it’s it’s a repetitive resentment that just keeps getting deeper and deeper. Then that also is a product of Automaticity, and that is the sort of habit we want to uproot. So we have to know what’s what, what is the important habits. And you know, what do I have to change and what do I want to change? What what’s keeping me stuck? That’s the bottom line, right?

Alison: And, you know, it’s interesting we talked to so many people. We’ve done like over 60 interviews. And the thing that keeps coming up, that I never thought about before we started this, is in a life that seems truly meaningful and authentic is curiosity.

Stephen: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. It’s Number one.

Alison: Is the thing. And, you know, it’s not really talked about like curiosity killed the cat or blah, blah, blah. But I have to say, that’s like a thematic and listening to you, curiosity and discovery are so important. Self and outward.

Stephen: Yeah, yeah. What can I be?

Jean: Yeah. Right.

Stephen: You don’t know. And that’s wonderful. It means I can find out, you know?

Alison: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. You’re so, um, you’re so, um, down to earth.

Stephen: Huh? I try to be. Yeah.

Jean: You’re very humble.

Alison: And I love that because, you know, when we. When we read your bio, um, because someone… I was like, oh, man, this guy’s going to be, like, sitting in the lotus position, floating.. I better I better get on it.

Stephen: I do my best to pop that bubble whenever I can. Yeah. And I come from a background, i mean, all those years I was with, um, super spiritual people… Um, and I see how people get carried away with ideas and, and, um, the idea of magic powers and, um, transcending the, you know, ordinary material life and and I’m not, to me, the point is not whether these things are possible or not, but you know what’s important? Yeah. Is it important to escape this life and feel personal bliss, or is it important to to actually contribute, to bring something back into this world and make the whole world a little bit more peaceful before I die? Um, and it’s that because when I give and when I see the effect of my giving, then that makes me feel happy in a way that nothing else does. There’s a satisfaction in that that you don’t find anywhere else. Uh, you don’t get it for money, for sure. You don’t get it from power. You get it from connecting. You feel that connection to other people. Connection is what it’s all about. Love is what it’s all about. But you’ve got to start by loving yourself. And that’s what a lot of people don’t do.

Alison: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Stephen: They beat themselves up all the time. I’m no good at meditation. I can’t do this. I hear that all the time. Yeah.

Alison: And what do you say?

Stephen: I say yes, you can. And I try and show them. I sit them down, and I try and show them that because they’re consumed with this idea of I’ve got to get these negative thoughts out of my mind, that this is the big problem with with so-called spirituality, the idea that you should be positive, everything should be positive, and negative thoughts are bad. You should you shouldn’t push them away. Get them out of sight. No, it’s not going to work. If you don’t address negativity, it simmers. Still, there comes out in unconscious ways. You have to address it. You have to see it. Well, I’m feeling very angry. Okay, well, is it justified or not? Yes. Anger is just people are shocked when I tell them that it’s sometimes. But you’re a meditation teacher.

Alison: You can’t do that.

Stephen: When you meet a bad person and he’s behaving badly. You should be angry.  hello?  why is that complicated? But it’s how you respond to that. And what do we do with that anger? You know, if we just become violent about it, then that’s no good. And it’s difficult. It’s a difficult emotion to deal with because it’s so powerful and it’s so instant, and it’s one of the most important emotions, especially today. We have to understand how to channel our anger into constructive ways.

Jean: Yeah.

Stephen: Yeah. Because you can’t just lash out if you go lashing out on on social media. You’re just going to get a whole pile of people jumping on you and, It’s tricky. It’s hard. Yeah. These are dark times.

Alison: These are hard times.

Jean: I think they require more of ourselves rather than just that response. So I, I think what you’re offering to, you know, whoever gets the privilege to listen to you is, is a chance to bring more of your authentic self, your wisdom, your kindness into the world.

Alison: You’re wonderful.

Jean: Yeah. Thank you so much.

Stephen: Oh, that’s very sweet. Thank you.

Stephen: Well, I really admire what you’re doing as well. I mean, you’re going to a lot of efforts to bring some positivity into this world, which seems to want nothing but negativity nowadays. So that’s wonderful.

Alison: Yes. Thank you for seeing that and for saying yes…you are really just so interesting to me because I feel like I could be your pal and learn from you as opposed to, like, just be reverential of you.

Stephen: Oh, no. I’ve gone to great effort to avoid that. Not just to me, but to the figure of the Buddha as well. If the Buddha is some sort of god, you know, who sort of floats on the clouds, then  i can’t really relate to that… I don’t quite see how that can help me.

Jean: Right.

Stephen: I need to relate to a human being there who went through struggle and, you know, found out the hard way. That’s what I relate to. So that’s the way I tried to teach. Yeah, yeah. And from experience, not from books.

Alison: Yeah. I think that’s so true, I think. I think your classes must be fantastic. So we’ll direct people to your website where you share your offerings.

Stephen:  Well, it’s – Mindfulnesslive.CA

Jean: Okay.

Stephen: Okay. Because we’re in Canada. So the the program is called Mindfulness Live, and I teach Monday, Wednesdays and Fridays at 12 noon for half an hour. So it’s brief, but it’s continuous. So every week you get these three guided meditations and then you get the recording afterwards. And then there’s an archive. I’ve been doing this for six years now I think. So there’s an archive of several hundred. Um, and this is what gives you the continuity. Like I say, everybody who sits to answer to meditation, they do a mindfulness based stress reduction course and they love it. You go into a silent retreat. They love it. But when they come home and they discover that the rest of their family is sort of, oh, that’s a little weird. I’m not doing that-  then  um, it’s hard to keep up the motivation. So I’m trying to provide support here, and it’s a wonderful group we’ve got…It’s really cool.

Jean: Excellent.

Jean: That’s wonderful. We have two wrapping up questions. Yeah. And the first one is um, our podcast is called Inside Wink. And what do you think inside wink means?

Stephen: Well, my first thought was that it’s, um, of course, this is my projection, i’m sure everybody gives their own projection. It’s that I’m giving myself permission to explore myself. I’m going inside. I’m the inner monk, right.. You’re talking about the inside wink, and I’m going, yeah, that’s all right, you can do that.

Alison:  that is fantastic.

Jean: I love that.

Alison: Yeah. Every everyone sees it through their own, you know, facet, which we love because all the answers are right. And and, you know, that’s a beautiful thing. Yeah. Thank you.

Stephen: Wonderful.

Jean: Okay. And then do you prefer cake, pie or ice cream?

Stephen: Ah. Okay.

Alison: Yeah?

Stephen: I always like cake best. Yeah. My mum taught me to to cook. To bake when I was very young because I was always asking for cake. And she said make it yourself. So I learned how to cook it.

Alison:  What’s your favorite?

Stephen: My favorite cake. Uh, I think my favorite is, uh, it’s a lemon and blueberry cinnamon cake, which we have. We make it for breakfast. It goes really well with coffee. It’s not too sugary, right? It’s very light. Uh, and it goes great with a nice cup of cappuccino. Yeah.

Alison: Oh, that sounds really good. You’re making me very happy.

Stephen: I grew up in a restaurant. You probably. You probably knew that. Yeah. So I developed an attachment to food at a very young age.

Alison: Well, being Italian, I’m Italian too,

Stephen: Yeah, that’s. That’s the real religion, right?

Jean:  there’s this comedian, Sebastian Maniscalco, and he says something to the effect that, let the Italians cater the Seder.

Stephen:  it makes sense. hahaha

Alison: Well, thank you so, so much. This has been wonderful.

Jean: Yeah.

Stephen: It’s been a pleasure. It was really a pleasure to get to know you and wish you the best of luck. I hope to see you again.

Alison: . Thank you. And have a beautiful day.

Stephen: Thank you. Same to you. Take care.

Jean: Bye bye.

Jean: Nice job.

Alison: Thank you. So, what an interesting man.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: Oh, God. And I’m saying thank you.

Jean: No.

Alison: Perfect.

Jean: No, that was right. Okay.

Alison: What an interesting man.

Jean: Yeah, I would have… I wanted to talk a little bit more about his monastery, his life there. But, um, you know, we only have so much time. But what he did share was just so helpful.

Alison: And also that he, he really is not like push it out of your head, which I really think is refreshing. I like that, I like that the people that we’re talking to or being like, hey humans suffer. Mhm. Here are some tools. Not like oh if you’re suffering you’re really not, you’re not doing too well. Not spiritual. You’re not…you know??

Jean:  well that whole word spiritual I know, I know Steven mentioned in another podcast or maybe this one, I don’t recall that, he’s not a big fan of that word. Yeah. Um, just that it has so many different connotations. Right. So he’s just really someone that gives such great tools to live a fulfilled, happy, responsible, aware life.

Alison: Yeah. I think even just listening to his TEDx talk will help people, going to his website– if you can do his his, um, his was a mindfulness meditation, that would be wonderful. I think anyone that can recognize that these times are tough and have an idea how to keep us along the lines of peace, is really worthwhile right now.

Jean: Yeah.  that is so true. Well, thank you so much for listening. And thank you, Stephen. This was a wonderful, beneficial, uh, conversation.

Alison: Wonderful. Thank you so, so much. And have a great day. Bye.

Jean: Bye bye.

Alison: Bye bye.

Alison : Okay. I’m going to try to use this now. Try to do it.

Jean : Okay. What did we learn?

Alison : We learned to stop trying and use the life transforming power of trying less and doing more.

Jean : By Carla Ondrasik.

Alison : That’s right. And this is. I can’t wait to be interviewed by her, because it’s all about doing and being motivated and getting it done.

Jean : Yeah. And you know what, Allison… I do feel and know that you embody this already.

Alison : Really?

Jean : Do you think that?

Alison : I think I do do a lot. I think it drives people crazy sometimes. Just do it. Come on. Let’s just do it.

Jean :  You are. I feel you… You really have a that under your belt.

Alison : Really? Thank you. Thank you very much. I feel you do. You do a lot.

Jean : Well, I actually do notice from reading her book that I do use the word try. And I’m really grateful to Carla because I actually feel more a little more empowered.

Alison : Let’s try not to use the word.. Let’s just not use it. It’s odd how much it comes up.

Jean : True.

Alison : Right?

Jean : Yep.

Alison : Even just now I said it. So. Okay, well, here she is. I can’t wait to hear her.

Jean : Yes. Okay.

Alison : Uh, okay. Here she is.

Jean : Someone looks really gorgeous.

Alison : You look really good.

Carla: Hi, ladies.

Alison : Hi.

Carla: You know, it’s so funny, i don’t think this is, uh, you don’t you don’t do the images, right. It’s just through Spotify and listening. Right?

Alison : Right, right. And we just take a quick picture of you for the website.

Carla: Yeah. I’ve been listening for a long time because of Dolores. We have a mutual friend, but my husband laughs at me like I put perfume on and jewelry and I like, I want to be calm and be my best self for you guys. So no matter what I’m here, all of me is here for you.

Alison : I love that!

Jean : We are so grateful to have you on our show. And, uh, we did try to read your book and.

Alison : We tried….No. We’re teasing. We did it.

Carla: You’re killing me, ladies.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : You must get a lot of that, or you probably will. Um, but, uh,

Carla: I do.

Jean : I loved your book. I loved, loved your book. I think for me, it really spoke to to so much of the, the patterns we get into without us even knowing it. Right?

Alison : And I just what what inspired you? Like, it’s it seemed like you had been you had said a couple of times, you know, it’s been you’ve been writing it for a bit. And so it inspired you in the beginning?

Carla: It’s a great story. So here’s the book.

Carla: Nice shiny copy. Um, you know, I, I was born in Long Island, New York. My father was a gambler. We were sometimes put in situations that were sink or swim. You’re either going to like, get out of this, like in a good way, or maybe not such a good way. So, you know, the trying mindset from a very young age was really, you know, we weren’t even given the option. You just got to go and do and be. And then my career’s reflected like it’s a combination. My passion is motivating and inspiring people, and I did that in every job I’ve ever had, even if it was waitressing. It was to make their meal incredible, right? And then I worked for Sundstrand Aviation, where I was the employee relations coordinator. So I was the communication between the shop floor and upper management. I was making all the employees dreams come true. And then, of course, I got into the music publishing world, where I was for 25 years and I worked with songwriters, and their dream was to get on the charts to get their song recorded by an artist, and it just never felt like work. It’s imagine you can’t try to sell ice to Eskimos like it’s, you know, it’s and music is intangible. So you got to do and you’ve got to do big and you’ve got to do hard. So that’s just a little background. Like I feel like I look at all those careers and I’m like, well, what did make me so successful and why did it work? Because I really don’t employ a trying mindset, which we’re going to get into, you know what that means and what we think it means and why we do it. But I have also been obsessed with self-help and rags to riches stories-  I love how did you go from here to here? And I read a lot of biographies and watch documentaries. And of course, you know, Shakti Gawain’s creative visualization, all the stuff. I’m 61. I’ve been I’ve had a long time to read a lot of self-help books. And and I thought that I would write in this one book, one time a year, everything that was going to happen the next year. So I’d start out with what I’m grateful for. And then I wrote, this year, one of my writers will have a song in the top ten. This year I will buy a home. This year I will– boom boom, boom. And not everything came true, but most of it did. So I started calling it my magic book. And I really, I had groups with women and questionnaires, and I was researching this whole, you know, is it the is it the act of getting it out of your head and making it something tangible and concrete? What is it that makes it manifest like that? And what I very quickly realized was it’s the words we use. And it wasn’t ever trying, wishing, hoping, wanting. I wrote, being, doing and having. And then I was just forever triggered by that word. Try. If anybody says it in my presence, I’m just like the bells go off. Yeah. And, uh, it’s crazy. I can’t even try on clothes in the dressing room. I, I say, I am going to put this dress on and see how it looks like it, and that’s how serious I am about it. Like that’s how much and how strongly I believe in not using this word. So there you go. That’s that’s me. I’m this crazy obsessed girl.

Alison : I, I think that’s first of all, that trying on clothes is a riot. You’re like, no, I’m. You have to try that on. No, no, I’d like to put this on. I love that.

Carla: You’re going to hate me the next time you go shopping, because you’re going to be like, oh, wait, I’m not.

Alison : Right.

Jean : But it’s so true. I’ve already caught myself when I say try, and I and I told my kids that we were interviewing you today and they both said, how great, what a great way to… But you’ve got to catch yourself.

Alison : Yeah. So, you know, it’s funny because my kid drew me a picture years ago. My motto is just do it. Just do it. Like, shut up and do it, you know? Um, and yet, in your book, I was saying to Jean, I, I want to hang on to the word trying. There’s something so… So, um, I don’t know. Why is that, do you think?

Carla: Okay, so this is a great lead into, you know, what is it? It’s an awareness is what you’re talking about. It’s not a trick. It’s not a hack. It’s an awareness of a word. And you know what? You have to realize that your words, your thoughts become your words. Your words then become your reality. What am I thinking? What am I going to do? And then your actions become your reality. So it all starts in your head. Your words. Your thoughts are your words. Your words are your actions, your actions or your reality. So it’s this big trickle down. It starts here. We believe that trying is doing. That’s the first misconception when we say we’re trying to do something, we think we’re doing it. And I’m not talking about semantics. So I could say I’m going to try to put these glasses on right. Odds are I’m going to make contact, pick them up and put them on my face. I’m talking about big ticket items that affect our health, our happiness, our relationships, our careers, our dreams, all of it. And you’re going to see that very clearly as we keep talking. So, um, so we think that trying means we’re doing we think that it’s brave. We think that it’s a courageous, brave first step. We think it’s, you know, the thing we need to do to discover what it is that’s going to happen, but it really isn’t. Um, trying. Isn’t brave because it’s dipping your toe in the water. Um, what trying really means is you’re not doing anything. So we can do a very quick test, and then I’ll go on. So this is the try test, and you’re going to feel physically what it feels like. So whoever’s listening out there you can do the test also. So hold a finger out in front of you. I’m going to give you three directions. If you’re driving. Don’t do this.

Alison : Okay.

Carla: The first direction is touch your nose. Perfect. Okay. And you can take your finger off. The second direction is do not touch your nose. Perfect. The third direction is. Try to touch your nose. You’ve already touched it, and you’ve already not touched it. So you can’t do those. Physically, I’d love to see you try really hard to touch your nose.

Alison : It feels like a waste.

Carla: Okay. Does it feel confusing?

Alison :   Yeah. It feels like a waste of time. Like, what am I doing?

Carla: It’s like you’re holding yourself back. Right. So if it felt confusing and awkward and silly, our brain feels much the same way that your finger does. It doesn’t know what to do. Am I doing this or am I not doing this? Okay. And one of the reasons that to your question of why do we want to hold on to this so much is because trying it allows for this safety net. Okay. There’s no accountability. When you say you’ll try to do something, you are off the hook. I only said I would try. So if I don’t do it, it’s okay. I didn’t say I would do it, I said I would try. So we lose all accountability. Um, you can use excuses. Okay. I tried to get there at 9:00, but the line at Starbucks, you know, we’ll even blame we’ll blame a line. So excuses blame and zero accountability. You know, I have an excuse. Oh, I thought I was supposed to be here at 930, but I’m now I’m here at, you know, I thought it was 930, so I’m late for the 9:00, so we want to hold on trying. Is this, like, really gentle net of of comfort and, um, why we do this when we get back to what it really means to try is the not doing. Trying as according to the dictionary definition, is in any dictionary is an attempt or an effort to do something- right. I’m on a mission to change that definition, because it really means- I’ll kinda sorta, maybe do it if ish, right? Yeah. You’re laughing. We know it’s true.

Jean : Right

Carla: So why we do it?… The number one reason is that we’re taught to try. So it’s not our fault. And we all do it, every single one of us, because our parents taught us to try and their parents before them. Give it a try. Try harder. Just try it. Try again. You’ll never know unless you try. So we’re taught that this is a really great way to go about doing something. But that’s one of the reasons and it really isn’t. Because like I said, you’re not really taking definitive action. You’re not really doing anything. You’re kind of tricking and fooling yourself into believing you’re doing something. And there’s science behind that also, because when you’re talking about, you know, you go to a party and you meet somebody new and they say, well, you know, I’m trying to develop a podcast. I’m trying to write a book when they’re telling you that our brain doesn’t know the difference between whether you’re talking about it or doing it. The it. The brain does it now. So you’re getting hits of dopamine, serotonin, adrenaline, all the feel good neurotransmitters in your brain. And for some people, that’s enough. And that’s why you go back to the party the next year and you’re like, well, how is that book going? Well, I’m still trying, right? Have you ever encountered that?

Alison : Yes. Very much.

Jean : Absolutely.

Alison : I wrote down that you said trying is a mental activity.

Carla: Yeah.

Alison : That’s, that is such a great sentence because I have looked at, I guess I guess I have looked at trying as a I, it brings up so much stuff for me. The word trying now, like like last night, last night I got a very important project to do, and I didn’t know if I was going to make it to be here today. I didn’t know, so I said to Jean, okay, I’m going to use the word trying. I’m going to try to finish it tonight. But I was putting in my best effort, but I should I not have said trying like what could have been better words for me to use to tell Jean because, but I couldn’t fully commit. It was a lot, a lot of work I had to do.

Carla: Yeah, You’re going to be much kinder to yourself and you’re going to operate from a much stronger place. Imagine that trying is shaky ground, right? I’m going to try. You’re building in the potential for failure. The second you say, Jean, I’m going to try to be there. You’re building in failure before you even go about doing it, right? Right. So if you say to her, look, I’m going to do everything I can. I want to be on the podcast tomorrow. I may not make it because trying, not trying doesn’t guarantee success. Not at all. But it does guarantee you a better chance at success. 100%. So you’re the person that’s directing your life. You’re the one telling the world what you’re going to do. You might as well arm yourself with out bringing in failure without the potential for failure, without bringing in all your excuses and blame, with holding yourself accountable. Everything you do, even trying on that dress in the fitting room, putting it on is going to be stronger. It’s a silly example with the clothing thing, but that’s what you would say instead of I’m going to try. You know, we walk around and we say,  I’m trying so hard, but nothing’s happening. And the problem isn’t that you aren’t trying hard enough. I’m sure you are. It’s that you’re trying in the first place. You’re just on the hamster wheel of excuses, blame, accountability, and not doi

Alison : Yeah, you’re so right. Because last night I did do everything I had to do to finish it. I finished it late. I wanted to be here to meet you and be with Jean. And you’re right. I just could have said, I’m going to do everything that I’m capable of to complete this. And then it’s understood. Yeah. That if I, if it if something else happens, something else broke or whatever and I couldn’t complete it, then that’s it. That’s a great thing. Carla. Thank you. That’s great.

Jean : And I just want to add a little bit to what we were just talking about about, uh, you know, you say in your book, like, try, try the peas versus taste the peas, right? I think for mothers and maybe just some mothers because everyone has their own fabulous mothering way. But, uh, it almost sounds more nurturing or kinder to say. Go ahead. Um, you know, try it, try it. You know, I know you think you can’t read the book, but try it, honey. And it. You’re. So I want you to speak to that because it’s it’s disempowering.

Carla:  It totally is. I’m going to cover so much with that. Um, so yeah, when we offered a try, it does sound gentler and kinder and softer and nicer, but it is not kinder, gentler and nicer. It’s actually the opposite of that. And I’ll explain why. But when we tell our kids, try your best. Okay, I have a test coming up, or I’m going out for a new job. Or if they’re younger, going out for a team or going to be in the school play or whatever it is. And we say, just try your best. That’s telling them, go half hearted, go, go kind of, sort of do it and lean on all the excuses and blame. You can blame everybody else for not giving you enough time or nobody listening to you or whatever, but when you tell them to do their best, their brain is rewired. The minute you change your word from trying to doing, your brain lights up on a different level. There’s actually studies and images. When you say you are going to try your you’re Your radiating on a very low hum like a neutral. But when you say the words I’m doing this. Your brain is lighting up now. It has it knows it has to take strong, determined action. It knows what that means. So when you tell your kids do your best, they’re going to flip that switch and they’re going to put in the extra thing. They’re not going to seek out a excuses. They’re not going to they’re going to give themselves a sense of accountability.

Carla: And if they don’t make it and they still fail their test or get a lower grade than they want, they’re walking out with their head held high and they know, look, I did everything I can now. They have pride and self esteem and they can go and do it again or whatever they can. Um, when someone needs our advice, you know, we’ll we even say it in a very soft voice, you know? Have you tried this? Why don’t you try calling so and so? It’s very soft and pretty, right? What that person needs in that moment is you to tell them you need to call this person. You need to get this book and read it. You need to do this. They’re looking and seeking help. They don’t want someone passively telling them to maybe kind of do something right. I appreciate it. And um, and also with the being kind thing with the kids, women especially, one of the big reasons that we offer to try is because we think it’s mean to say, no, it’s very we say, I’ll try to be there because we hate saying no. We tell our kids we’ll try to whatever because we feel like that’s mean and cruel and not nice. But what it means is you’re not being kinder to them when you’re misleading them. You’re not being you’re teaching them that you are kind of you can’t count on this person. You’re not teaching them to keep their word.

Carla: Right. Um, and it’s not kinder to you either. For example, you know, if somebody invites you to a fundraiser and you want to be the kind, nice person and say, well, I’ll try to make it. Thank you. And you, it’s on Friday night and you get home and you’re home thinking, wow, I said I would try to go. I could go. I have nothing else going on, I should go. I said I would try to go. I know, you know, they really want me there. And it’s a great cause. And so now you’re adding all this stress and anxiety and you’re guilt tripping yourself and all the negative stuff. And you don’t get to enjoy your night because you’re like, what am I going to tell them? And what’s my excuse? And I didn’t go. So now you’ve just blown your night. If you would say to that person, thank you for the invitation. It’s a Friday night. I have a busy week. I’m sure I’m not going to make it. And I would love you to keep inviting me to the next one. But no thank you. They’re not going to wait for you. They’re not going to get your special cupcakes that they know you love in case you show up. And now they’re moving on. You’ve given them the freedom to know if you’ve given them the honesty. So it’s one of the exercises in the book. We have to practice saying no instead of I’ll try.

Alison : That was a great part of the book. I have to say the the do it, don’t try it. Those I thought the I thought those were excellent. Uh, how did you come up with those?

Carla: Well, I’ve been basically thinking about this. Any time I see the word, try and just researching it. You know, I never, ever aspired to be an author. I didn’t know what I was going to do with it. I really didn’t know. I just was obsessed and compiled. And like I said, I have study groups that I’ve done with women. And, um, but what happened was the universe kept bringing me these opportunities, and I thought maybe I should listen. Like, maybe I need to do this because I don’t know what your religion is, but I had a feeling if I don’t do it in this lifetime, I’m going to have to come back. And this is my message. And nobody else was doing it. You know, we nobody else. We all know the Yoda. You know. Do or do not. There is no try. It’s on posters and it’s, you know, hundreds of millions of people know it. But nobody ever said why, why there is no try. But to me, it was vivid and it was like this big, big, huge banner in front of me every day. So. So that’s why, you know, look, I’m, I’m 61. I’ve had freaking 3 or 4 careers. I’ve launched two kids. I want to have fun. My husband’s touring and I want to go out on tour with him and finally be able to do that. But I’m doing the book. I’m working harder than I’ve ever worked in my whole life, and and I’m very passionate about it. So that’s how the idea came up. I just the universe kept pushing me like, meet this person and go meet this person and Mel Robbins has endorsed my book, you guys. That’s just…It’s it’s insanity. That was the universe going. Carla, you you have to do this.

Jean : So when I started reading your book, Carla, I thought she is so on it. This is what we need… That it really generates self-worth  and speaks to who and what we really are.  I mean, I’m just going to, you know, I discount myself and and we sort of inadvertently, unconsciously discount another person’s powerful creative abilities. And so you’re, you’re really wise in in directing. Hey, hey, take a look. Did you fall into this pattern? Um, because there’s a power within you, and it’s our voice, our thoughts, our actions. And, um, you address all of that in your book.

Alison : Yeah.

Carla: Well, thank you so much.

Jean : Yeah.

Carla: Go ahead.

Jean :  Can you give us some tips? Like, if you’re a doer, like something that, like 2 or 3 things that you could offer that just starting to embody..

Carla: Embody, embody the whole thing? Absolutely. Um, thank you for saying that. You know, I just it makes me really sad when people say, well, you know, I’m too old and they just get all the negatives. And then, you know, life is finite. It is passing us by. We don’t have forever. The time is now. And if you could flip your your thinking and just dive in and fail, like fail big time, it’s the greatest thing that can happen to you. Which would be one of the 50 tips I could give you. Really? Okay, so the first thing is become super, super familiar with what trying means. Really, once you know that you’ve conquered a big step and then you ask yourself, you know, look, both of you are successful women. You’ve had amazing careers and life times and look what you’re doing, right? But there’s probably some area of your life where you’re choosing to try. I don’t know what it is. It could be, you know, I, I wonder, like, why do people say, well, I’m going to try to spend more time with my kids, right? You’re going to have heart that spend more time with your kids. Do the action right. Trying means that means, you know, on one Saturday we go to the park and then everything falls off the cliff. That’s a trying effort, okay? Or I’m going to try to work on my marriage.

Carla: I’m going to try to schedule my dermatology appointment every year. I have to do it. I’m going to try, try, try. We end up not doing it because that’s no action. And then we find out we have skin cancer, right. So you have to ask yourself. Look, I know I can do, I know I’m capable and I’m doing all these things. So ask yourself, why am I choosing to try here? What is the thing that I’m avoiding and afraid of? So that’s one way. Um. Another thing is literally start really small. So I love to give this little example because when you get the hit of doing, you’re just like, wow, what else can I do? Because I want that feeling again. Okay. Now. So we all have the junk drawer in the kitchen. Okay. The drawer or wherever it is that you can’t close because the empty tape container, the the scissors, the the crap that’s in there, right. All the it doesn’t even close. So, you know, I walk by that thing and I go in and out of it. I’m, like, scurrying around looking for a screwdriver and a whatever. So one day I’m like, oh, my God. Like, I’m just going to do this. I’m going to clean it. And it took me maybe eight minutes.

Carla: Okay, I just got a little garbage thing. Boom boom boom. It was so beautiful. I had everything in their little place, and I felt so good. It wasn’t as hard as I created it in my mind. Like, I’m going to try to get around to it half the time. The things that we say we’re going to try to do are just getting bigger and bigger in our heads. And, um, I did it. And then I felt great. It’s so good that I like, I’d walk by and I’d open it up and I’d look, yeah….

Alison : I’m the Same way…

Carla:  right?

Jean : God, that looks so great.

Carla: It’s so great.

Alison : I got a closet and i open it like..Oh, oh, yeah. Right.

Carla: And so do something little. So start small. As with everything, become aware of why you’re trying and that you are in fact even trying. You can enlist, help, have people around you kind of catch you when you say it. I’m a strong believer in the power of silence. So when I was writing my book, there were people in my family that didn’t even know, a lot of my friends had no idea. I don’t need to talk about what I’m doing. I just do it, because the talking part is where you’re giving away your energy and you know…. Right, does that resonate with you?

Jean : Yeah. Absolutely. And not only, um, it’s just adding you just don’t want naysayers or and you spoke about this or….

Alison : I have an idea for chapter four, carla, do this like you don’t.

Carla: . Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And you know what’s so interesting? I love what you said, Jean, about you don’t want other people’s input because sometimes, unfortunately, people that you share with, they’re not happy for you. They don’t want you to succeed. And sometimes people can come from a very loving place. You know, Carla, you’re really going to write another self-help book. There’s so many out there. I don’t want you to be disappointed. I don’t want you to, you know, so it can come from a loving place or it can come from a not. So you protect yourself and you hold all that energy. I mean, I, I have conversations with Oprah Winfrey like I’m literally sitting in front of her. I fantasize about it. You know, like, I, I, I want this to be successful, but I’m not going to share that. I’ve never even told anybody that. But you girls, you know, like i keep a lot of stuff to myself. So power of silence is so powerful. Um. Starting small. Um, uh, become aware of the use of the word try. And, um, I’m just going to I want to tell you this other thing. So we all make lists, you know, you’ve got. I would say a big thing is to really don’t make the lists the, the to do list. What that is, is a try to list. And what happens in our brain, it’s called the zeigarnik effect that not a lot of people know about. The Zeigarnik effect means that when you have a list of stuff you’re trying to get done or your to do list, it’s unfinished business, then our brain loves to hold on to and gravitate toward unfinished, and they’re stored as incomplete loops in our brain. So we have all these incomplete loops. Imagine like energy going to all those. It’s like the brain just boom boom boom focusing. And the way to alleviate that is do the one thing, just do one thing on the list. And the loop closes and it’s gone. And now you have more space and more calm. You don’t have as much as much anxiety. You have that release of energy. Wow, I did that. Then you do the next thing and the next thing. So yeah, we’ve got all these unfinished loops. It’s why cliffhangers work. You know, the entertainment world does it.

Carla: It’s it’s. wait. How’s it going to end? So we think about it all week and we talk about it. Oh, I can’t wait for, you know, Thursday night, the season ending of whatever. It’s a science. It’s real. And when you cram for a test as a student, you’re cramming. You’re cramming. You’ve got all this information. But the minute you take the test, you close the loop and then you don’t remember any of it, right? So you be aware that this is like our brain is working. And when we’re trying and doing all these things, we’re we’re not helping ourselves. We really are not helping ourselves.

Alison : Do you have any like it was interesting that you said, um, like, there might be some things that we’re avoiding or like trying to do. Do you have anything like that left in your life? Like, do you have any fears or anything like that for you currently?

Carla: Yeah, we we we try. Did you read the, uh, the intro about my son in the car?

Jean : Yes, yes.

Carla: Okay. And it was such a great analogy. It happened like, as I was writing the book and I was like, why did I keep trying to make that thing work? Why didn’t I go to the dealership and say, look, guys, my monitor. It’s Russian roulette. I can’t get the AC to work, I can’t get the radio to work. And and I just suffered with it, you know, and I got used to it. And I just expected that maybe one day it would work. Right? Trying to deal with it. And when he pulled back, I mean, we died laughing. It was incredible. But I said, that is amazing because when you stop trying, you are literally peeling back your layer of what you’re not doing. And so, of course, I mean, it is hard for me now because I’m so hyper aware of trying, but, um, and it’s not my nature. I tend to start and in the music business, if I wanted to get on a record, it was like, what do I need to do? And I just see the ending. I, I don’t I don’t see the roadblocks in the way. I just see what I want and either I get there or I don’t, or I pivot and figure out a way in. So but I’m sure I will try again in my life and they will come up.

Alison : It makes me feel a little better. And then I had one other question. I’m not sure I can fully put this into words. Um, the the I how do you know if you’ve done it? Like like like, let’s say you had written this book and you have it in your computer and it’s done, and no one wants to put it out there. Let’s just say that that had happened. It was a great book, so that never would have happened. But something like that, like you put in a lot of the work, you actually did the action and then for some reason, what you had expected or what you had thought was the full experience of it doesn’t come to fruition. Would you consider yourself still having done it? Do you understand my question?

Carla: Oh, yeah. It’s a great it’s a fantastic question. So first of all, the trying effort is, you know, I’m going to start writing the book but never finishing. But okay, you finish the book, you actually send it out to 20 publishers and everybody comes back and says, no, that’s called trying. Doing is, I’m going to send it to 20 more. You have heard all the stories of J.K. Rowling, who was turned down by everybody. So you keep going until either someone says yes or you self-publish. Okay. There are ways to get it out there. You, you. Instead of going to publishers now you go to literary attorneys, literary agents. You find someone or you find someone that will, you know, believe in your story. And you know what? If all roads lead to no, at some point and it’s not what you wanted it to be. You know, if this book doesn’t sell copies, I’ve, i’ve already won.

Carla: Yes, I’ve already won. I did what I said I was going to do. If I didn’t even get a publisher, I’d already won. I said I wanted to write the book and I did it. Now, yes, I want people to read it. I’m already a winner. But how do you know if you’ve succeeded or failed? That’s within you. And that’s your personal set of what do I want to get out of this? So if you write a book and everybody turns it down, I’m sorry. There are so many ways you can self-publish these days. You could even print up 50 copies and put them online and let your friends buy them, you know? But if that’s not the level you want, then you pivot and you say, maybe it wasn’t, uh, for me to do this. How else can I get my message out there? Maybe I’ll just become a speaker and I’ll volunteer at the local rotary clubs, which every city has them with. You know, people that want to learn and business people that you can help. So you just keep doing is the answer to that.

Alison : Thank you. Thanks. Because I thought that was, you know, you are so supportive. And this, you know, this almost felt like a spiritual book to me.

Carla: Oh my gosh.

Alison :  especially at the end. I loved your trailblazer tips.

Carla: And then soulful solutions.

Alison : Yes. And I just really thought that that I can see how the universe was supporting you because it really is just really very, very beautifully done, I appreciated it.

Carla:  wow.

Jean : And I want to speak to just a a quote. You need to be definite with the infinite.

Alison : Mhm.

Jean : Because if you’re um, if you’re, if you’re wishy washy that’s what you’re going to sort of get back.

Carla: Mhm.

Jean : We live in a reflective universe and, and so um you’re really giving us back our power to create and, and craft the lives that, that we, we really desire from our heart, rather than just half heartedly go through, through life and and what a pity it it is to to wrap up this life when we never know when we’re being called home and having regrets because we, we kind of tried through life.

Carla: So true. Having regrets. 100%. I’m very honored and I love that you both interpreted it that way. I do feel very connected with the universe, and that’s why I’m doing this. It’s not I don’t I’m a behind the scenes star maker. Like, I have made careers and I’m I’m not comfortable in the front. But you know what? I had to do it. I have to do it because that’s my gift. Um, and I also just I wanted to say it earlier, but I want to make sure that I get it in here. How are we on time? Are we okay?

Alison : Yes.

Carla: Okay. Um, by the way, we already know this. It’s already in us, and we already utilized this, but on a on an unconscious level. So I my job has been to bring this to our conscious level and our daily use. For example, you wouldn’t put your money in a bank that says we’re going to try to keep track of your money and I’ll try to have it available to you when you want it. Nope. We don’t go to that bank. Right? And you wouldn’t go to a surgeon that says, I will try to remember which limb to remove in the room. No. You want the person that’s going to amputate the correct limb. And we don’t tell our kids on their first solo drive out of our driveway, in our car, you know, try to stop at the stop signs, try to try not to drive too fast. Right. We we don’t put the money in that bank. We don’t buy the bottle that says tries to relieve your headache. It’s the one that relieves it quicker, faster and better than anybody else. So we’re making decisions on an unconscious level where we’re not allowing for trying in our life. And this is like kind of eye opening, right? We don’t think about it. And we’re also not given the opportunity to try at the same time. The airline doesn’t say, can you try to be here at 930 because we want to try to take off by 10:00? No, it’s it’s be here. But that doesn’t mean it’s going to take off just because you don’t try to get there.

Carla: Your flight may be canceled and storms may come up, but if you’re not there, you’re not increasing your odds of getting on that flight. And, um, if you don’t charge your car or put gas in your car, it’s going to stall. It’s going to not function. You can’t not pay your mortgage payment or rent payment. We don’t we’re not given the option to try to pay our mortgage and try to do this. And I think one of your guests, I can’t remember the podcast, but it was about being hungry. And I think she even said trying to eat, like, what does that even mean? I’m going to think about getting dinner. I’m going to think about what I want. Unless you’re eating the food that’s going to, you know, you can’t try to eat. You have to you can’t try to, you know. So we already know this. It’s in there. So we just need to bring it up. And all everything your relationships, when you’re not trying to be a good friend or trying to be patient with someone, or trying to be generous or trying to work on your, you know, time with somebody when you’re doing it. It’s a totally different set of actions, and they’ll be better and your business will be better. Your health will be better, your everything will be better. You’ll finally stop trying to learn to play piano. And you’re either, you know, okay, there’s one place that I tried.

Alison : I that’s a great story in the book.

Carla: Oh my God. You know, I tried I’m like, screw this. Actually, I decided I’m not going to do it. And um. Oh my God, I feel like I could just like I have the stream of conscious stuff. I want to say. That’s all in there. I could I just should read the book. Right? Um, out loud. But, um, another thing, you know, one of the big highlights when I’m speaking to women and women’s groups, which I do all the time. And if you ever want me to speak to anybody, I will. But they love it when I do the part about learn to say no. You know, it’s not kinder to say no. But this is the other part that really gets everybody excited. Is that not doing something, choosing not to do it? I’m not going to do that. Is stronger than saying I’ll try and failing.

Alison : Yeah.

Carla: So you know my example, I probably didn’t put it in the book. But, you know, I used to go on vacation with the family and I’d be like, I’m going to try to, like, eat healthy and I’m going to try to go to the gym and I would Google the gym like, oh good, they have a gym and I’m just going to stay on my plan. And then I’d get there and I’d want to sleep late. I’m like, I’m on vacation, I don’t really want to work out, and I want the fruity thousand calorie drink at the pool. And I’d have it and then. But I’d feel terrible. I’d think, wow, you know I’m not. I said I was going to try to eat better and try to exercise, and but I’m not doing that. And now I’m like, sucking at my vacation because I’m giving myself all this mental crap. But now I just say, oh my gosh, like, look out, look out, bar….You know…Look out. I am not even going to look at the gym. I’m not doing anything. I’m going to enjoy my vacation because I know when I make the decision to do it, it’ll be as strongly as when I make the decision not to.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : I think that I have definitely, as I’ve gotten older, said, no, that does not interest me.

Jean : Yeah,

Alison : It Doesn’t interest me. I don’t want to go skydiving.  It’s Not in my wheelhouse.  you know, I’m 66, I don’t I you know, I want to stay in the plane.

Alison : So. You know, I totally I, I loved that piano story so much. That so resonated with me. I don’t want to give it away because I want people to buy your book.

Jean : Yeah. Your stories…

Alison : Yeah, they are great.

Carla: Oh my gosh, thank you.

Jean : And, um, I just want, you know, I know we could we could talk forever about this gorgeous book you wrote. I also think it’s timely, Carla, because I feel as a human race, we are being asked to be more self-responsible, not to give our power away, to really speak up more and to become the best we can really be for ourselves and our, you know, and that ripples out. So, um, my goodness, you are just so inspiring! I love your book. I didn’t finish it yet, but I am. I am going to finish it. I’ve listened to. I’m not going to try. I will finish it. But this has been so great..

Alison : I really enjoyed it. So thank you so much. And we just have two quick wrap up questions. First one is our podcast is called Inside Wink. What do you think? What does that mean for you?

Carla: Yeah, I read that I have to answer that question this morning. I was like, oh, I’m so glad I read that. You know, to me it’s a couple of things. It means, a knowing that you don’t even have to express verbally, you know, maybe with two friends, just an understanding of a situation and somebody like a beautiful kind of I get it. I got it’s like your own little I got this kind of a feeling of confidence and inside wink and, um, the other one was just being in on something that nobody else is in on. Like having just having a secret, you know?

Jean : Yeah, yeah. Beautiful.

Alison : I really love that. You know, Dolores. Dolores, our mutual friend, is so lucky because you’re such you’re really a woman’s pal. You know, you’re really a good. I can really feel it from you. And then you have the last question.

Jean : Absolutely. Uh, okay. Carla, uh, do you prefer cake? Pie or ice cream?

Carla: Easy pie.

Alison : Really good.

Carla: 100%. I love pie. We’ve actually started on the birthdays now. Like, instead of just doing the cake, like, what are you going to eat? Like, we’re sick of, like, having two. And for me, in any flavor, peach, blackberry, cherry. It doesn’t matter I love pie. I love the, the, you know, eating it as you walk by with a fork. I love eating the crust. I just I love it warm. I love it cold, I love pie. It’s irresistible to me. I eat a piece of pie anytime I have an opportunity to do so.

Alison : Oh, I love that.

Jean : Wonderful.

Carla: Well, I know one of you is a baker. You’re a baker. You’re a baker?

Jean : Yes.

Carla: And, uh, you bake good pies?

Jean : You know, pie is not easy to make. It’s the crust. I mean, if you’re going to go all in the crust, you know, takes a little time and, um. But, um. Yeah, I used to make a lot of pies. Now I live on my own, so I…

Carla: You can still make pie.

Alison : I’m an eater. I’m just an eater, that’s all.

Carla: What’s your favorite?

Alison : Me? Yeah, I, I like sort of the mixture of everything. Like, I like pie with ice cream or cake with ice cream.

Carla: Or cake with pie.

Alison : Like the turducken. Like, put the ball on a plate and I’m happy. My birthday is on Monday and I’m trying to, you know, figure out how to get as much of that in me in the next week because I just enjoy it. I love it, you know.

Carla: I love it. Now you have a reason to bake a pie, Jean.

Jean : That’s right,

Alison : thank you so much. Carla.

Carla: Thank you for having me. Follow me on Instagram. Because every day, like I do really fun posts and really great little moments from our life where we try and how not to do that. So I that’s always a great thing. And I love sharing on Instagram or TikTok.

Alison : I can’t wait till I watch you on Oprah.

Carla: Right?

Carla: Yes, right. Energy. Energy out in the universe.

Alison : I know it.

Jean : We live in a possible infinite universe, so why not?

Carla: Thank you.

Alison : thank you so, so much.

Carla: I Appreciate this.

Alison : Have a great afternoon.

Carla: All right. I’m glad you made it.

Alison : Me too.

Alison : It was so much fun.

Carla: Bye bye, ladies. Thank you.

Jean : Okay. She was fantastic.

Alison : And so interesting. And I feel like it’s perfect for right now.

Jean : Me too.

Alison : For our mindset to get people for stop. Stop maybe worrying or, you know, spinning and actually start to do something because I think everyone will feel better.

Jean : Yes, exactly. I think I don’t know who I think you and I were talking about this, that sometimes when you feel anxious, the antidote to that is to actually do something. If you’re spinning in your head, do something, go for a walk, or do the thing that you’re thinking about. Just do it and you’ll feel so much lighter in your mind.

Alison : Right? And I think it’s amazing, after reading this book and speaking with Carla, how much the word try is in my vocabulary.

Jean : Yeah, we are so conditioned with that word. And, uh, I love that she talked about women and saying no. And and the falseness behind… It’s it’s a kind way to be to just say I’m trying. And actually, a real loving way is to speak your truth and go, hey, this isn’t going to work for me. Please keep me.

Alison : In the loop.

Jean : In the loop for next time or whatever. You know, whatever she she was sharing. But I loved her book.

Alison : Yeah. And it’s it’s a great read, great exercises. And, um, I like that just to start small like, right, right now, you know, just doing, listening to this podcast you’re doing and that and just to start small doesn’t have to be like, oh, I’m gonna.

Jean : Never say try again.

Alison : Right, right. Just start small. You don’t have to build a whole house. Just start. So.

Jean : That’s right.

Alison : It’s great. So thank you so much, Carla. I’ve learned a lot and.

Carla: Yes. And it was great to see you. Yeah, great to see you again.

Alison : And we know Carla through our friend Dolores. And boy, she’s another fantastic woman.

Jean : Yeah. We are surrounded by beautiful women, good friends inside and out there. Everyone is just such a a beautiful being.

Alison : We’re very lucky.

Jean : And empowered and lovely people.

Alison : And I love at the end about just giving gratitude and being grateful for where you are.

Jean : Right.

Alison : And that the opportunity to move forward.

Jean : Well said.

Alison : I’m going to eat more M&Ms.

Jean : Okay.

Alison : Okay. Goodbye.