Alison: Hey everybody! If you enjoy the inspiring conversations on Inside Wink, you were going to love the Good Mood Revolution podcast. It’s hosted by happiness expert Matt O’Neill, and the Good Mood Revolution combines laughter, positivity and key insights to help you navigate life’s challenges with a smile.

Jean: Each episode dives into the art of conscious happiness, offering fun and practical tips to boost your mood. Matt chats with leading experts to share their amazing stories and clever techniques for staying positive, even when life gets tough.

Alison: So whether you’re looking to overcome challenges, add more joy to your life, or you just want another good reason to smile, Good Mood Revolution has you covered. So catch it on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Your best mood is one podcast away!

Jean: It is.

Alison: Hi, Jean.

Jean: Hi, Alison.

Alison: Okay, so you had something exciting yesterday, didn’t you?

Jean: Yeah. My, uh… I like your teeth, Alison.

Alison: Do you? We both wearing Invisalign, so we always are looking at each other’s teeth. Yours look good, too.

Jean: And I’m staring right at your mouth. And your teeth look beautiful.

Alison: Okay, but tell us about the stamp.

Jean: Alex was given the title of a Forever stamp, and it was such a beautiful event yesterday. It was held at Sony Studios, and Matthew and Emily and Nikki were there, uh, with their significant others. And it was a beautiful tribute to the life of of Alex.

Alison: I love that. And you had a speech that you did.

Jean: I did, with your help. You helped me fine tune it. Thank you. Allison.

Alison: I wished I had been there. I bet you were great.

Jean: I don’t know if I was great. I got, you know, I get nervous in the beginning. Public speaking is really not my thing. But although I do do it. But I felt a little bit better as the speech went on and definitely reading from my speech, when I go off tangent and try to improvise and sound funny, I lose it. So I got to stick to my speech and there it is.

Alison: Right.. And then you feel good and confident.

Jean: And then I look for the glass of wine.

Alison: Right.. Exactly, exactly. Well, that’s exciting though, Jean. It’s very exciting.

Jean: It’s was a really distinctive honor for Alex.

Alison: Yeah. Um, who would have thought a stamp?

Jean: I know.

Alison: It’s very, it’s interesting. Um, and I’m going to buy them and use them on all my letters. Jean, I’m going to think of you all the time when i mail a letter.

Jean: Well, think of Alex.

Alison: Yeah, well, I do think he’s on my. He’s on my refrigerator um, so today we’re having a great talk with Nancy Allen and Marlene McGirt from We Spark.

Jean: Yes. And you’re friends with Marlene? right?

Alison: Yeah, because our children went to high school together.

Jean: Right. And and I feel so honored to be part of knowing this, this amazing organization. Um, it was founded by Wendie Jo Sperber.

Alison: That’s right. A really great actress. And it started in 2001. And, um. Oh, you’re being honored by them in September.

Jean: I am.

Alison: That’s right. Yeah, I love that. Um, so let’s listen because they have a they’re a great organization that is a cancer support organization and really helps friends, families.

Jean: It’s a very holistic healing center.

Alison: Yes. It’s great. So let’s listen to them okay?

Jean: Yes.

Alison: Okay, good.

Alison: Thank you guys so much for coming i i’m so flattered to do it.

Alison: It’s unbelievable. So let’s talk a little bit about Westpark and how it began and what its mission is and its goals, because it’s such a great organization.

Nancy: Well, thanks for having us here today. Uh, and, uh, And to talk about we spark. Um, Wendie Jo Sperber is an actress, uh, back in the 70s and 80s and 90s, and she was diagnosed with breast cancer, and she was 47 years old. Uh, she had two young children, and, uh, she lived in the valley. And she realized there was really no place for her to go outside of a hospital setting to meet other women in, uh, support groups there, or drive all the way out to the west side, where at that time the wellness community was really the gold standard. And so she said, uh, no, we’re going to open something in the valley, and it’s not going to just be for the cancer patients because it affects your families, your children, your friends, your whole community. And it’s going to be free for everybody. And she was told, oh, no, no, you absolutely can’t do that. But, Wendy, uh, being Wendy is not someone that understood the word no. And so she really single handedly spearheaded, with a help, a huge amount of the community, the entertainment community really showed up and did their first, golf tournament, first fundraiser. And in 2001, um, I got a call from Wendy and she said, I’m opening this center. I found a place and you need to help me. And I said, well, okay. I mean, I don’t know what she’s no, you’re going to be the creative program director. And I thought, well, what on earth is that? And she said, oh, you know, you’re into all that woowoo stuff, all that stuff that’s good for healing.

Nancy: And so on March 1st of 2001, we opened our doors in Sherman Oaks. We had one cancer support group, one group for caregivers called hugs. Wendy liked acronyms, helping others gain strength, and of course, a game night because she liked games. And, um, I taught a yoga class, a restorative yoga class, and that was the beginning. And, um, and from there, it just developed. And our mission basically is to help. We’re dedicated to, um. Oh, my God. I’m blanking on the mission dedicated to enriching the lives of cancer patients and their families and friends. All the services are free, and all the services help with the emotional and physical side effects of a cancer diagnosis. And for any of you which I know most people have been through either themselves or family member or friend, the it’s tough. It’s really a tough recovery process. So, um, at the end of the first year, we were so excited. We had one program at least every day, and now I think we have about 40 programs a week, so it’s been an incredible journey. Sadly, we did lose Wendy in our third year. Fourth year, I guess it was. And but the, uh, the mission thrives and the organization is thriving and, um, really proud to have been asked to participate in it.

Alison: You probably thought you were just going to go there, like for I’ll just go like once or twice. And now you’re the executive director, right?

Nancy: Go figure, I told her, I said, well, I had a few hours a week, but, you know, it was life transformative for me. And I was really looking for that. I mean, I’d been, you know, acting since I was 15 years old. And at this point I was 50. So do the math. But anyway, um, I just didn’t have I just didn’t have, I don’t know, life happened. My father had cancer. I’d lost my two brothers, uh, seven months apart. And it just didn’t hold. It wasn’t holding the magic for me, you know? Uh, and so this was an opportunity, really, to continue a journey that I didn’t even realize that I had been on for a long time, which is, you know, investing myself and my being in meditation and yoga and, you know, other modalities that was about, you know, healing my being as opposed to getting the outside stuff, which I thought was what was going to fix me.

Jean: Yeah. That’s interesting. That’s so beautifully said. Nancy and I and I think that’s what’s so important We Spark is that you’re a holistic organization. You address all parts of our being as spiritual, mental, physical and um, having been through, you know, the the journey of having  beloved Alex have cancer and everything, it it is a two by four when you get that diagnosis. It it it’s just like a a tidal wave that comes into your life. And one of the things that I love about your organization and specifically just going to your website, is you say there’s a tab that says Begin here. Yeah. And that’s what you need because you have so much information thrown at you. Plus your brain is just it’s it’s like out there. You don’t you can’t even understand what the journey you’ve stepped into. So you you have this. Just begin here. Push this button and we you fill out a welcome form. Someone’s going to call you, and we will help, um, navigate you to where we can offer you your, your best support. And I love that. So so thank you.

Nancy: Thank you you for that.

Jean: I just wanted to say that because there’s so much involved, it is a different land. You are in a different country when you get a cancer diagnosis.

Nancy: Yeah. Well, your your life is paused as you know it. And now you are in-  set up this appointment, set up that appointment, meet this doctor and have this scan. Get these results. Oh my God, how long do we have to wait to find out what the pathology of the tumor is? I mean, it is it is an ongoing siege. Like going, like literally going to war, you know, and, um, and of course, everything is on…. Everything else is on hold. So, um, it’s certainly really helpful to have to have the opportunity to share with other people what’s going on with you, other cancer patients, other family members. And I just, you know, want to mention it’s always interesting when a couple comes in, um, whoever looks at the best is the cancer patient. Whoever looks like looks like everything’s coming apart at the seams. It’s the caregiver because everything’s going into taking care of the patient. So, you know, they we always say, please, let us take care of you, while you take care of them, because, you know, it’s a big deal for a caregiver to say, you know, I’m just going to for an hour and a half, I’m going to go and I’m going to go to my group and oh, my God, is it okay to leave this person? Is it, you know, any of that stuff? But it’s so important to self-care is essential whether you’re the patient or the caregiver, or the family member or the child, to really have that space and have someone hold that space to make sure that your emotional needs are getting, that you have a place to download because you don’t want to tell the cancer patient, oh my God, I’m so terrified. You don’t want to do that, right? Someplace else to say that, you know? Uh, so anyway, I yeah, I have such admiration for you, Jean, and what you went through, it’s really quite extraordinary. Living out loud. You did it.

Alison: That’s right. It was. And being in the public eye and going through it is a whole, you know… Marlene, how did you get involved in Westpark? Because you’re you’re from a different background, huh?

Marlene: No, I’ve been a a professional fundraiser for over 25 years.

Alison: I meant not an actress.

Marlene: OHH, I’m not an actress…I may look like one.  hahah–just kidding.  It’s not my thing, but I always like, um. Yeah, I just, I, I came from Chicago, so I was a fundraiser then. And then, um, my family and I, um, moved to Los Angeles and, um, and I continued and I tried to do the producing thing for a little while, and, and, um, but I was still consulting. And then I started working with the Alliance for Children’s Rights, which for a little over six years. And I did that, and my kids were growing up, and then they went into high school and, and then I, Nancy, have known she we’ve been friends for a long time. And we would have lunch and I would consult with her because there was no real development department. And then she became the executive director. And, so we would talk, we would have lunches. And she goes, oh, I want to hire you. One day I’ll find the money. And then so one day she found the money and she, we met for lunch or something… I’d like to,  can hire you?

Nancy: and I’m thinking, what would it take to get you to jump ship? What would it take?

Alison: I love that, yeah.

Marlene: So you know, it was interesting, I was at the Alliance is a non-profit law firm. So it was a big budget, very, you know, high powered, dealing with a lot of entertainment people and, you know, support and I loved it, I loved it. But when Nancy’s ,when there was the opportunity with Nancy and I got to talk with her, I, um, decided it was a good time because it was close to home. And, um, I loved the mission. And then I remember her giving me a tour, and I walked the old place. You saw the old place? Um, Allison? And it was very homey. And, you know, I had to go into, like, first gear because it was so quiet. Very beautiful and centering and almost mystical. And I’m almost getting chills because I remember walking through the little halls, and then I saw a couch in one of the support group room. I went, ooh, if I worked here, maybe I could take a nap. It’s been ten years. I’ve never taken a nap.  It was just such a cool environment. And, I’ve been here for, you know, since 2014. You know, it’ll be ten years in August. And it’s been really a joy to work with Nancy and see her commitment to the organization. And the board of directors  are great. And then the guests, oh my God, I see, you know, I see them come in like a deer in headlights. And then I see them like laughing and meeting people in the community, that happens here is amazing, you know, and um, and so and the work it’s,  I remember we used to be called the woo woo and now we’re the go to, you know, and uh, and it’s, it’s been really great. And so, you know,  the guests are the ones who keep me coming back and the work is always challenging. And, um, because of the climate and whatever, it’s, you know, people say, how do you fundraise? You know, that’d be so hard. You know, they said, well, you know, I don’t beg people for money. I just give people the opportunity to be of service. If it’s not with us, it’ll be with, you know, hopefully you’re supporting something because it makes you feel good. And I get to see the best in people. I got to tell you, I really do. And then Allison, I met you at in, you know, in grade school, you know, when the kids were going to grade school and and you are so of service. I remember you were the volunteer for everything and and you were just so inspiring and, and I remember I had to go back to work full time. So I was volunteering and then I couldn’t do it anymore as a single mom. And then I remember you just continued. And then we went to high school and then Maxwell, my son, and I went to high school. I saw Allison, I went through, I hit the jackpot. I said I got the most committed person to her children and to others children.

Alison: Oh, you’re so sweet. You know, it’s so interesting when we talk about giving back to others, right? And how that can make you feel like you could you could definitely look at someone like you, Nancy, and say, oh, you had it all. You were in all these movies and you were the star and the celebrity. And yet I feel like you’re saying that really coming into your own on this journey about giving it out and being of service. Like, why do you think that? Why do you think that touches the human soul so deeply? What is it about being of service that is really our connective tissue. From your own personal view, what do you think?

Nancy: Wel…I really think I think it’s one of the big secrets in life. You know, we start out and we’re trying to get all this stuff, and we’re going to get it and we’re going to be happy, and it’s all going to be great. And the big secret is, the more I give, the better I feel. Yeah, the more I help you, the better I feel. It’s somehow much more fulfilling. You know, we’re provided for. Everything we need comes around us and we’re taken care of. But to be able to listen to someone, it’s the greatest gift. Just really be present. Witness someone’s life, whatever witness they’re passing, hold their hand, whatever it is. And I think that’s I mean, I think that’s the real juice in life. I mean, it’s we’re designed we’re here together. We’re not on an island by ourselves. We’re here together, and together we can do a lot of things to support and help one another. And, uh, I love it. I love, um, I love the feeling. And I’m greedy for that. Now. Now I’m greedy for that feeling. Can I just, i just want to mention, since you talked about Marlene joining, and one of the things that I like to have all the staff do is experience the services so they can literally, from their experience, be able to articulate what it’s about, you know, go in and have a Reiki session, uh, reflexology session? Uh, one of the classes. Go on and listen to the group. So so they can really experience and not just be in their office… There aren’t as many people that come on a daily basis since the pandemic. There’s a lot of things are still virtual, but still it’s really important to not just be there saying, oh yeah, it’s great. It’s so great, and you should try it. No, really be able to say it, it moved me. Yeah, or it relaxed me or I laughed or, you know, whatever it is. Anyway, I just wanted to mention that.

Jean: Yeah. Me too. And I think that’s so important, sharing your direct experience. Because then, then your words really have some meat to them and uh and I think that’s what we all want. Can you share some of the programs that there are available, there are so many great programs you offer? Can you give a list of some of your favorites?

Alison: Yeah, I was going to say, Marlene, what was your favorite since you got to do it all?

Marlene: Well, I call it the perk of working at We Spark.  Well, I think, you know, reflexology has always been really… I love massages, reflexology, which is so calming and comfortable, but I didn’t know anything about Reiki or qigong. and that was like, wow, that was… I had a little bit in Chicago. I did the Reiki, but but we have such we have like Reiki masters here and it was so centering and and so slight and so all I remember is waking up feeling so, not even waking up like-  like coming out of a trance like and feeling so relaxed and centered and my stresses, like my mind stopped working and I stopped thinking, you know, it was so meditative and beautiful. And I felt taken care of, you know, it was interesting, it was just-  I love it. And I can see when the, when our guests come out of the rooms, you know, our individual rooms, they’re like blissed out and I  go sit down for a minute, here’s some water.

Alison: That’s right. What about you, Nancy? What is something that you really love?

Nancy: Well, I’ll just say the anchor. The beginning anchor, of course, are the support groups. Right. So that’s their, um, movement. Tai chi, yoga, very important for physical recovery and for relaxation. Um, I love the individual appointments. I love paint and play as a new favorite. I mean, it’s just fabulous.. jewelry making, all of the creative things. Lectures are great…All of that’s great for me, um, I love, love hypnotherapy. I love the mind, body connection for me is powerful. And, um, you know, it started with meditation. We’ve had certainly different kinds of meditation classes, but I remember hearing a young lady, she was 20… I don’t know, 24 years old, healthy, athletic, lived and did everything right. And she said, how did I end up with breast cancer? And she was so distraught and she was getting ready for surgery. And imagine being that age and having to go through a double mastectomy. So she has every right to be terrified. And, um, I remember seeing her after her surgery. I saw her before, and then she had whatever session she had after her surgery. She was so happy. She said, you know, I’m so grateful there was a cancellation. And I got in to go to hypnotherapy to prepare her for her surgery, to the point where she went in there. She said,  I felt safe, I felt centered. Wow. Um, I think they were looking to see if… she said, I think they were looking to see if I was on some sort of medication, you know?

Nancy: And I never, ever, ever forgot that. And, um, you know, sometime after that, I, I tried it for something very specific, and I found it to be life transformative. Of course, one has to have just a tiny bit of an open mind. Just a little bit. You don’t have to be clever, but just say it’s possible. And I do think that that is a very powerful, uh, modality. And I think they all can be, because generally when you’re doing those one on ones, you’re kind of transported, you’re emotionally, mentally and emotionally transported. And it’s almost not that you’re leaving your body. I want to get to woo woo, but it’s your mind almost is suspended into the possibilities, you know? So I love all that stuff.

Alison: Oh that’s fantastic.

Jean: And  Nancy, I love that you shared about your,  the support groups that we spark offers. And something that I noticed which was so great, is that not only for men and teens, because women, we have our girlfriends, But you also have something called solo, for people that that don’t have family or friends. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Nancy: Oh yeah, I love that program. And it’s a very, very, uh, it is a really thriving and popular class group. Uh, there was a number of years ago, there was a young she was probably, you know, late 30s, uh, maybe 40 years old, a therapist who was a cancer survivor, breast cancer survivor. And she said, what I’m seeing, what I’m hearing and what I experienced is there are a lot of people who are going through this alone. Not that they don’t have anyone who loved them, but maybe their families live far away. Maybe they live alone and whatever it was, or maybe they were isolated in some way. So she said, I think there’s something there. Well, I’ve got to tell. I said, I don’t know, I don’t know. Right from the get go. That group just populated with people and from young to old. And it is a very powerful and wonderful, wonderful group. And, um, I, I love it, and I’m so grateful to her. Unfortunately, you know, that now is part of her legacy. She had a rediagnosis and passed a number of years later, but boy, it’s a exceptionally popular group.

Marlene: And people who have moved on from the group, there’s they still come in volunteer in groups, you know, there’s like Jane and Mary and they’re still hanging out together and they’re still very, very close.

Nancy: You see that a lot in the in the grief groups, very much so. They get, they bond and support one another. And um, well, we did have one wedding out of one of the groups. hahah

Alison:  I love that.

Nancy: I know it was really funny when one of the facilitators, uh, check ins or clinical check in. Apparently there was a gentleman who was the widower, and one of the ladies really took offense that he was dating so short a short time after his wife died, and she just went on and on. It’s disgraceful. Anyway, don’t you know they ended up together? I just thought that was just sort of a sweet story.

Alison: Love that. That’s so funny.

Nancy: But the relationships, the bonds that people form, you know, you go through something like cancer, it really bonds you…it’s a shortcut., It’s a shortcut language. It’s like you hear them laughing. They’ll mention something. Oh yeah. Laugh about their doctor. Oh, can you believe they said this? Or, you know, or cry together and you know and then survive. Uh, it’s it’s amazing. Truly amazing. And they’re definitely the inspiration of the organization.

Alison: I think it’s amazing that I know, we all know people that have had a cancer diagnosis. And I think I see that it’s hard. We live in a world that it’s hard for people to ask for help. It’s hard for people to be vulnerable and say, I need some help. And I think that’s what’s so great about you, because someone can just walk in the door, I bet, and not even say anything and get and get help. How do you how do you bridge that? Because I think sometimes people…  my friend has cancer right now. And I’ll say, you know, what do you need? And I realize they’re really not going to tell me, you know, I have to sort of be active. Do you know what I mean?

Nancy: Totally. Totally. No. I mean, I myself was raised to believe, to never ask for help, that I should be completely independent and never need anything from anybody. Right. So there is that mentality hopefully with the younger generations is changing, but,  it is not uncommon for someone to send in their forms or pick up the phone and say, I’ve been trying to do this for three months, i’ve been trying to do and and it’s it makes me so sad because it’s such a lonely place to have that diagnosis and to not get that helping hand and And but once they do, once they walk through the door, I mean outreach is key for us going to health fairs, you know, putting things out on the internet to talking one person to the other. I always keep cards or, uh, pamphlets in my car. So because you never know. Right. And I always give that card to people and say, I hope you never need this or anyone you know never did. But if they do, please, it’s very hard to give away free services. I hate to say it, but it really is. There’s there’s a lot of skepticism, really..what’s the catch? You know, there is no catch, you know, and we just want to be here for you. And it’s a it’s a beautiful thing when people come in and they you can see them exhale probably for the first time in however long they’ve been diagnosed, you know.

Jean: Right. so so obviously to offer all of these beautiful free services you need to fundraise. And so back to you, Marlene. What are your fundraisers? What are your events that you’re, um, putting out there so that our listeners can can join.

Marlene: We have a development mix. Mix. We we get grant money. We have major gifts. We have appeals that go out twice a year. Um, people love to give in honor and in memory of people. So that’s the straight gifts, you know. And then we have the fundraisers and then like, as you know, we have the drag queen bingo happening next Tuesday. I’m so happy you guys are going to be there. It’s a full house booked, and you know because in Nancy’s background we did we called it a Carrie reunion. I think I sent you the invitation. Carrie reunion… I don’t know, I sent that out, and we kind of doubled what we had anticipated for that day.

Nancy: And so, i think Billy Katt was the draw because my name is was last year and it didn’t get sold out.

Marlene: I always liked to see Nancy… And then, of course, our comedy event is our biggest fundraiser of the year, and we are so excited that we are able to honor you, Jean with the heart of We Spark Award. It’s so sweet and you’re just the you embody that what that this award is all about. And so you know, or you know, we’re hoping to raise $210,000. That’s our budgeted goal. And then plus I have my own goal in mind, um, for what we want, it’s usually more than what we budgeted for. But it’s such a fun event you guys are having going to have a great, great time. You know.

Jean: I’m so honored. That is an understatement. I’m so honored to be number one, just part of your stunning organization. My family and I, we will be there because we we have a direct experience with with cancer. And I want to say something that, um, Wendie Jo Sperber, I heard her say this on an interview. She says, you know, we’re living with cancer. It’s it’s not about pushing it away, you know, it’s how to more embrace it, you know, and and yes, we all hope and know that cancer absolutely can go into remission. And that’s wonderful. But it is… We are living with these situations in life that we know we don’t, we don’t say sign me up for this like we don’t think we do. But it’s part of our growth. And I know how it it’s a hard way to grow, but it does seem like that is on planet Earth, that we we are given a situation that we we need to embrace and change our perspective over and again, you know, and hopefully for the most part, for, I mean, I hope your organization doesn’t need to exist in many years, you know, but right now, we are so grateful you are here And, um, but I’m also a champion that we’re going to dissolve this, this cancer that that is taking lives of our loved ones.

Nancy: Well, Wendy’s Prayer used to be, I just want to say this Wendy’s prayer used to say she’d say, please put us out of business.

Alison: Yeah.

Marlene: Right. Exactly. Jean.

Marlene: Jean, you’re doing your part, you know, in what you did with the pancreatic cancer fund for stand up for cancer. So thank you for what you’re doing with research. And, um, and, uh, that effort and raising awareness.

Jean: Well, yes, I’m happy that I can contribute and I, I just want to say to all the listeners that cancer really is making great strides, the healing of cancer, the treatments. There’s so much more available than when Wendy, your founder, was around.

Alison: And to know that there are people like you guys that are really taking a different approach because when my family members had cancer, it was all very clinical and very harsh, and you felt like you were like, uh, go to this room, go to like it just felt very impersonal sometimes. And then when I walked into your space, I feel like I’m at home.

Jean: It’s the antithesis of going to the chemo place or your… It’s not clinical. It’s not medical. Like Allison said, it is very personal, homey and loving sanctuary and like to your what you also said Nancy you can exhale it’s like ah.

Nancy: Ah but to your and to your point, I just want to say that there has been so much progress made… It isn’t a one size fits all anymore. It used to be, oh, this is your diagnosis. This is what you’re going to get. Oh, you have to get radiation. We’re just going to blast you. They’re targeted approaches, you know, they can diagnose much earlier. Screenings are so important. Please, ladies, please get breast cancer screenings. Please, everyone do your colonoscopies. Because these are things that can save lives, you know. Yes, they see more, but they’re diagnosing early now. So this is a really great thing. And um, immunotherapy there’s there’s just, there’s  always progress. And I also would like to say I mean, we’re not a medical facility, but truly do your homework. Do your homework about your doctors– like you were going to marry them. You know what I mean? Find out who they are, where they come from, where they went to school, what their history is. And, you know, I just think that kind of– it’s a empower yourself to ask questions and not just to say, okay, whatever you want to do to me, do it. No. Ask questions. Do the homework. I think it’s very important.

Alison: So I think that’s true for most anything in life, you know?

Nancy: Agreed.

Alison: Know what you’re know what you’re stepping into. And, um, you know, be be your own advocate.

Jean: Yeah. Wendy says that on that interview. She says, be proactive. Don’t give your power away to some guru or some doctor that you’re just, oh, you know, tell me… put anything into me and everything. Ask questions and be curious.

Nancy: She was always very funny. I hate to say this, but every time we went, I used to go on her appointments with her. We would walk out of there laughing. I mean, not crying, but laughing. We went to see they were going to, uh.. For those of the listeners who don’t know, if you’re going to have extensive chemo and things like that, a lot of times they use a port so that there’s like an easy way to just so you’re not stuck with needles all the time- anyway. So she finally got to the point where she said, okay, I think I’m going to consider it. So we went and she was going to the best of the best, and we went in and this man comes in, this doctor and he says, uh, are you the patient? I’m the plumber. And then he starts to say, well, here’s what we do. Da da da da da da da. And she said, excuse me, do you like your job?

Nancy: And it literally time stopped for him. You know what to say, what to do. We ended up leaving there and she said to me. Yeah, I’m never seeing him again. You know what I mean? It was like his bedside, but I just thought, you know, you have to. It’s so crazy, some of it. You have to laugh… If you don’t laugh, I don’t know, it’s such an important part of life, you know, getting through anything.

Alison: Totally agree. Just try to, you know…I walked through cancer with a very good friend of mine, and we’d go to these doctor’s offices, and we made a plan. I guess I shouldn’t really say this, but at every doctor’s appointment, I stole a stethoscope…no Um, like one of those tongue depressors, uh, and every place. And we dated, and we would just laugh because I’d have to sneak it, and and it was sick. And we had this all these tongue depressors and cotton balls and just these things that I had that I had pinched from these places just to make her laugh. And we would we’d be hysterically laughing. And at one point in one of the last ones, I said, do you think I could get away with a gown like one of these? And she’s like, no, no, because, you know, it just– you have to just connect in a more, in your own way, like your own normal human way. So, Marlene, if we go to your website, we’ll be able to see how to donate or even how to get involved. And is that just we spark.com?

Marlene: It’s wespark.org –very very important. For just for educational purposes, Org is for nonprofit organizations.

Alison: Oh, I didn’t even realize that. Is that true? Because I just typed in we Spark and you immediately come up.

Marlene: Well that’s good.

Alison: Yeah. So you’re you’re high on the search. That’s excellent…Wespark.org – we’ll put that in the, in the blurb for our listeners and readers. So that’ll be excellent. And are there buttons there and things that express ways that people can…

Marlene: Oh sure ways to give?  We have straight donations. We have monthly donations, which I’m like, that’s my next campaign is really increasing the monthly donations. And then we have torchbearers. Anybody who gives straight gifts 250 and up will be a torchbearer. And if you give $1,000 or more, then you can be on a plaque that hangs at Westpark prominently. It’s really cool. You can put it in memory in honor. And then we have, um, matrix. We have a room naming opportunities where you can name a room or a section of  we spark and uh, that’s the higher level money. And then um, and then we also have planned giving, you know, if somebody wants to bequeath something or leave us in their will,  which is starting to, I hate to say ramp up, but it’s being more exposed that we have this opportunity– we’re going to be here for unfortunately, longer than we’d like. And, um, so we need the support in that way. And then our special events and everything, especially with the planned giving, there’s all the documents that you need and then torchbearers, you know, that’s you know, that’s kind of leads us into regular giving. And, uh, so we can count on people to help keep this going. We are very lucky. We have a lot of people that really, um, want to give back. Yeah. You know, and, um, and, and we have volunteer opportunities. You can fill out an application or you can just call here and, um, and we’ll be happy to find a place for you, especially mostly in special events. So we have everything you need on the, on the website. It’s, um, and you can give me a call anytime.

Nancy: Also, I’m just going to add to that that there is no donation that’s too small. No, but there’s also no donation too large.

Marlene: So that’s right, Nancy.

Nancy: I don’t want anyone to think that, oh, I can only give $10 or I can only give five. That counts. It really does. And those small donations pay for help to play for classes and services. It’s it all matters. You know, everyone can give back. Yeah.

Marlene: I remember one of our guests came up to me and she was an older woman, and she gave me a check for $10, and she was really embarrassed about it. And she was just so happy that she was able to give back. And I said, oh, my God, this means the world to me, because it  just shows your appreciation. Like Nancy said, there’s no donation too small and people feel good about giving back to us because they feel that they’ve really gotten some value and some hope and inspiration and, um, and to help, you know, calm down the uncertainty of the disease.

Alison: That’s right- hope is what you are.

Nancy: We’re going to be launching, um, a program, uh, an ambassador program for our people, our guests who have been with us a long time, and there’s still attached, and they still want to be involved, so we’re going to have a monthly program for them and then, uh, provide, um, I believe it’s a monthly program where they come and can answer questions and talk to people who are new and provide some, you know, hope and perspective on…

Alison: That’s great.

Nancy: Yeah, we’re very excited about it.

Alison: Yeah. It’s like mentoring.

Nancy: That’s exactly.

Alison: Really someone taking you by the hand I love that. Do you guys were you guys just tell us what you think inside wink means?

Nancy: Well, I thought a little bit about this. And, you know, I think it’s sort of– I first I thought that, you know, for me, a wink is almost like a, a secret, you know, a little secret communication and an inside perspective on things and a shared perspective. So I think in a nutshell, that’s  kind of what it means to me. And you can extrapolate that on think about it inside job and all. But I think on first thought, I thought, yeah, it’s like I got some inside info for you.

Alison: I love that, Marlene?

Marlene: Thought about it too, and At first it said it’s a knowing, you know, when you’re when you give somebody a wink or a group of people a wink, it’s like there’s a knowing that you all have, you know, so it’s like inside job, you know, um, a perspective, a similar perspective. But then I thought a little bit more, and I remember there was a time, there are times when I was giving a speech or doing something that I’m afraid of, or having to accomplish something for a group. And the one person that, like I loved or a friend or a family member or mom, she gives me that wink and she and it’s like, you’re doing okay, kid, or you’re okay. And it kind of is feeling like, um, like a I don’t know what it is… It’s like you’re okay. Yeah. Give you a wink. Like a little flirty kind of. And and kind of calms me. I remember that my mother would do that. Or or a good friend or an ex-husband, you know.

Nancy: Uh, other otherwise known as a wasband.hahah

Nancy: I’d feel Oh, okay. Everything’s okay. That one person gives you that a okay kind of wink. So that was a beautiful question, by the way, because I got to think introspectively about that.

Alison: And you’re both right. Which is the best news, you know.

Jean: So there’s no right or wrong. And we can’t thank you enough for this great interview..

Alison: Should we ask them about pie, cake or ice cream?

Jean: Oh, right.

Alison: Pie. Cake or ice cream. Really quickly.

Marlene: Go ahead. Nancy.

Nancy: Cake, no so much— pie yes, but you can’t have apple pie without ice cream, so I’m just going to go say ice cream. okay.

Alison: Marlene?

Marlene: I love apple pie, but any kind of pie with really great crust.

Alison: Oh yeah. Mhm. The crust is good. .

Nancy: How about you, what do you guys like?

Alison: I like I like the turducken of all three. I would like something that was like a cake with a pie in the middle, and ice cream. I don’t even know if that’s possible, and put some hot fudge on it. What are we holding back for? Just go. Yeah. You know?  What do you like Jean?

Jean: I like cake. There’s something for everybody. Which is so good.

Alison:  And we so appreciate you two. Thank you so much. And we’ll be seeing so much more of you at the drag bingo and at the at your ceremony.

Jean: And what you’re doing is so inspiring. And thank you for everything that you’re doing.

Nancy: And thank you for that. And thank you for what you’re doing. Because I love I really love what you guys are doing with this, the podcast. It’s remarkable.

Alison: Thank you.

Marlene: It was fun to listen to to your podcast. And I finally figured out on Spotify how to play it in my car. Well, thank you for having us. It was really nice. And you guys are just lovely. Thank you.

Alison: thank you very, very much. And we’ll see you soon.

Nancy: See you next week.

Alison:  Bye. Take care.

Nancy: Oh, wait a minute. Yeah. I just wanted to congratulate you, Jean, on  the stamp.

Jean: Oh, yes. That was a big honor for Alex yesterday. It was really lovely. He’s beautiful subject of a forever stamp. And, uh, we had a beautiful celebration and revealing of the stamp down at Sony Studios. So, um, they could not have made it a more beautiful time for my family and I. And oh, so everyone on my Christmas list is getting a stamp from him.

Marlene: Well, maybe we’ll put it on the invitation of our invite…

Nancy: Oh, that’s a great idea,

Marlene: I saw it last night.

Jean: That’s clever yesterday.

Marlene: Yeah I think that would be really great — Well, you’ll see the invitation, you know, it’ll say honoring Jean Trebek with the heart of We Spark Award and it’s going to be really nice. We’re so excited about this whole thing. And thank you again for accepting us this award. And Allison, thanks for all your help with, you know, moving forward and it’s going to be great.

Alison: I get to sit next to her.

Jean: Oh that’s just so sweet.

Alison: Thank you guys so much. You really are so wonderful. I’m so glad that we know each other.

Marlene: Me too.

Alison: Okay, I’ll talk to you later. Bye bye.

Nancy: Bye, everybody.

Jean: Bye bye.

Alison: They are fantastic.

Jean: Wasn’t that great?

Alison: I just love their energy. And I love that they’re friends. And I love what they’re doing. Like, I think what they’re doing is so important.

Jean: Yes. I mean, how wonderful it is that there is a sanctuary, a place that people can go and get all these wonderful services. Yeah. And I love they have guided imagery and sound healing and massages. There are support groups for groups for men and teens. And if you’re a solo person without any family or you know if your friends are too busy, this place offers something for everybody.

Alison: And I know Marlene McGirt and she is the like, she’s so nice. Like any time I’ve seen her, she’s just exuded niceness, you know what I mean? Like and and Nancy Allen, like I’m like a fan of Nancy Allen’s. And to see how she is glowing and down to earth and and like her whole life, she’s like, adjusted her whole life to this passion to to continue her friend’s mission. You know, I just love that. I think it’s so important.

Jean: talk about a legacy of love. Yeah, that these women are leaving, passing the torch, you know? Uh.. From Wendy to Nancy.

Alison: You know, and they have a small group like their crew, their team is small. And so you feel like that must be like  such a nice place to work, right?

Jean:  so you and I went there for lunch, and we had a beautiful lunch with Nancy and Marlene, and I love their place that they had that beautiful like turquoise color and all the treatment rooms and a beautiful sit down place for for lunch to bring your lunch or make your lunch there. It was so cozy and comforting.

Alison: So please, please look them up. We Spark.org – I learned that today too, not dot com. And you know if you can donate or volunteer or go to their events. It really it’s worthwhile.

Jean: Right, and if you need any support with yourself or someone you love that is dealing with cancer, this place will get you on the right track. Because I know firsthand there is so much information thrown at you, and if nothing else, We Spark will help you navigate some of it.

Alison: Perfectly said. And you ended so quickly. That’s it. Uh. Thank you Jean.

Jean: That was my, uh…. What’s it called when you when when you’re in Olympics and you get off the vault… My dismount.

Alison: You landed, you stuck- you stuck the landing.  Have a great day. And thanks for listening.

Jean: Bye.

Alison: Bye.

Alison : Hello, Jean.

Jean: Good morning.

Alison : Good morning. Here we are with our, uh, with our little podcast. I love it.

Jean: I love it, too. You know, I was looking up when we spoke to Jessica last, and it’s pretty much a year. Exactly a year. Did you know that?

Alison : Yeah. But do you think we should say this? That we, that we screwed up?

Jean: Yeah.

Alison : You do?

Jean: I do.

Alison : Why?

Jean: To let people know we’re not perfect.

Alison : You don’t think they know that from our.. Okay. haha Should I keep this on too?

Jean:  Keep it going?

Alison : Okay..so yes, Jean is revealing our our dirty laundry. Was it a year ago today, Jean?

Jean: Yes. I forgot to push the record button, and we had a great interview with Jessica Zweig, and, uh, I didn’t record it. And then we had to eat crow and ask Jessica if she would be interviewed again. And she said, you know what? Why don’t you wait till my next book comes out and I’d be happy to do it? And she was so gracious. And you know what? I look back and I think at that time, a year ago, she was already, uh, coming out of the closet with how much she is embracing us, being spiritual beings, having a human experience.

Alison : That’s exactly right. Because she talked about that at that other interview. And and now I’m so excited to talk to her because now she has a new book called The Light Work. And it’s kind of huge and amazing, you know?

Jean: Yeah, I mean, here’s the B title –  “Reclaim your Feminine power, Live your cosmic Truth and Illuminate the World.”

Alison : What else you got to? haha

Jean:  I mean, it’s that all she’s got ???? hahah

Alison : Right, right. I’m lucky if I take a shower, but we’ll not go down that path. Um. She is amazing, though. She is, um, one of the top ten entrepreneurs to follow, as quoted by the Chicago Tribune. She was CEO and founder of,  Simply B, which was an amazing company that she started. It’s a personal branding company. And then the book that we initially read and talked about was Simply Be was be a no bullshit guide to increasing your self-worth and net Worth by Simply Being Yourself, which was a great it’s a great book to read.

Jean: It truly is. And so now she’s a powerful spiritual teacher who has been described by, who has been described as the voice of her time by, Marianne Williamson.

Alison : Yeah, she’s no slouch. Come on, who are these people?  I love Marianne Williamson. Well, here, we’re going to talk to her again. We’re going to hit record this time.

Jean: We are indeed.

Alison : It’s going to be great.

Jean: Yes. I can’t wait to chat with her again. Yeah.

Alison : She’s great. Hope you enjoy it.

Jessica: Hi, haha…you guyes are so sweet. HI again. I heard that’s so sweet of you.

Jean: Hi again.

Alison : You’re so sweet. Thank you for talking to us.

Jessica: Of course.

Speaker4: You’re an angel and a lot more.

Jessica:  thank you.

Jessica: Did you guys read it?

Alison : Yeah, I read the whole thing. And I got to tell you…it’s huge. It’s a huge, big thing. Like, it’s a kind of amazing.

Jessica: Thank you. I’m going to cry. Thank you. This. This book is my I… I channeled this book from another place. I don’t even really know where it came from, but I feel that, I feel there’s an importance and an and an urgency to it. And, um, I really feel like I’ve never done anything so important in my life than write that book. And so thank you for that reflection, because it’s not out yet, and not a lot of people have read it. And I’m getting, you know, feedback from the hosts of these shows that I’m on. And it’s it’s been it’s been affirming, I’ll tell you that because it’s so vulnerable. This book, you know, and I’m like, I, I got my hard copy a few months ago and I started reading it and I started having heart palpitations because I’m like, I’m I can’t believe I’m sharing all of this with the world and not just my own personal stories, but my beliefs.

Alison : Yeah, yeah.

Jessica: It means a lot to hear you say that. So thank you.

Jean: Well um, I didn’t finish it. I got to about one 180, and I’m still, i’m a much slower reader because this book, I have to read it slow. I, I it’s like moving something and I know, uh, I don’t know, sometime after you talk about the, um, you give like a glossary of terms, which I so appreciate a little bit after that, I, I got emotional and I thought to myself, why am I, why am I crying? What’s going on? And, uh, something this book is an activating book. It really is. So it is triggering something in my subconscious, which is which is releasing because I just started crying. And, um, so I want to say thank you so much for taking the time to, to really write down your experience and offer so many great tools which which are so needed right now more than ever, because it is the feminine energy which is not a gender. We’ll talk about that which is so vitally needed on the planet. Yeah.

Alison : Yeah. So in this book, you took a trip to Egypt. Yeah. And it’s sort of it’s sort of it’s sort of like a tapestry of that sort of the background and where you place us in the context. And then what happens in the book to me is that there are touch moments and touch points that have you evolve and transport you. Yes. Could you describe a little bit because I really want people to read the, Light Work, but could you describe a little bit about your trip and what came up for you? Just a little.

Jessica: Yeah. Well, I think it’s important to explain where I was before that trip, because I was in the darkest depths of burnout and I call it Rage Against the Machine, called my life. In the months leading up to that trip, I was running a business. It was a huge hustle. I was just not at all in alignment. And yet I felt like I had to play this character and hold up this identity. And I love to travel. I’m a world traveler, and I go to try to check out a new country every year if I can. And and I had chosen Egypt, and I say in more ways it chose me. And I really had no idea what was going to happen to me there, And I say that I had I don’t say, I know, I mean, the whole book is founded upon this, uh, identity death. Uh, you know, you go into these temples in Egypt, it’s not a vacation. It’s a spiritual pilgrimage. And you’re up really early in the mornings. You’re you’re going inside of these sacred spaces that are ancient to not, like, 4 or 5000 years. Ancient like tens of thousands of years ancient that have living frequencies in their walls. And these these major things happen to you in these temples that sound crazy when you tell them back in America, like, that’s not real, that you had to be on drugs for that to be real. And so Egypt. Egypt was the ultimate remembrance of who I really am. And the role I’ve really come here to play. And I got so many messages from these goddesses and higher galactic beings that, like, come to you and speak through you and you see them, you feel them.

Jessica: Things happen to your your body that I am not just a steward of this message of light, that I am not just a leader of the feminine frequency. I am here to be a conduit for this message for all women on the planet. Not that I would reach all women on the planet, but maybe I’ll reach a lot of them. I know I will with this book. And this book was just a a channeling. It just came through me. And in three months I wrote this book. It literally took me three months to write the whole thing. I didn’t use a ghostwriter, like AI, I wrote every word of it. And Egypt was the biggest catalyst for my DNA activation in recalling my codes of how I’m connected. Yes, to the galactic, but what I’m really here to do in this Earth plane and, you know, through all the things that I do and I think this is why I’ve connected with so with you so beautifully, both of you, is to restore the planet that we’re on to more love, light, feminine energy, healing, oneness, harmony. And, uh, I had kind of been hooked into the lie that I had to kill myself for, for that to be true or for me to make an impact. And I really unhooked from that. And this book poured through me as a a message for all women everywhere.

Alison : And, you know, it’s so it’s first of all that’s so beautiful. And I have to say, it actually, I think, helps our audience to hear that someone quote, “like you”, could be in a place that wasn’t –wow, do you know? And that you went looking for something and went on this trip, and now you feel you’ve changed? Like I just got chills because your career and your outside, your physical appearance looks, you know,  like the, like the,  the goal. Right? And the fact that you had emotions and ideas and thoughts that, um, were  hard feelings I think is so helpful to hear because, I think we live in a society where it’s all like a face value thing, and you forget that people are people like have are struggling. Everyone’s got their bag of rocks to carry.

Jessica: Amen.

Jessica: It’s  so, so true. And you know, I wrote my first book about authenticity, and I felt very much in alignment with that identity, that girl that ran that agency and had the platform and the book and the podcast and the big team and the fancy office and the success and the accolades, like I, that that business came from my soul at the time. Mhm. But it’s important to note that before I launched that business, I had a lot of scarcity, like actual financial scarcity. I open up my first book with going broke and having to ask my parents to bail me out at 33. So when I started Simply Be, my company that I just actually sold, I was never really healed from that scarcity trauma. I had just kind of skated over it in my system and then started making all this money, and I got really hooked into success, not because I was looking for fame and fortune, but because I didn’t want to die again, like I was, i was hustling for my survival, and the world kept telling me I was winning and I just kept running. And I hope that with and thank you for that beautiful reflection and everything that you know that people see because I do present pretty, pretty normal. You know, I’m well packaged, I guess my, my publisher told me that, but I’m, um, I’m, I’m hoping that this story and and this book, you know, and especially if anyone has sort of followed it, my journey at all in the last few years, that you are allowed to change, you’re allowed to shed layers.

Jessica: You’re allowed if you keep running at a pace that isn’t innate to your system, and you’re hooked into a patriarchal lie, that in order to win as a woman, you have to play that game. You will hit a wall at some point. And it’s okay to die. It’s okay to be reborn. It’s okay to continually evolve and follow your truth and be who you are, and let people see and know the real you as you even define what the real you is. That that’s part of what we’ve come here to do, which is to evolve. And, you know, I, I feel like I’ve, I’ve written this book that is, you know, very spiritual, very, you know, talking about the Palladians talking about, you know, DNA and cellular memory and all of the things. But I have succeeded in this sort of 3D reality and those things, those gifts, the business, the branding, the marketing, all of that’s always going to be part of what I do and who I am, and have translated ideally like these rather esoteric ideas for anybody to read and understand… Like that was my goal to really make it tangible, um, to the masses so that people don’t, don’t think like, oh, that’s too woo and not for me, because I feel like this is the truth. Like, we all need to know this. Like we all need to understand this and recognize what’s happening here and the role we play, you know, so I really appreciate that feedback.

Jean: It’s so powerful. And it’s exactly where we are at in consciousness as a collective consciousness. What you’re stating here in this book, and you give so many, um, tools and visualizations and, and it’s such a beautiful guidebook. Um, and where I’m at in your book, what’s constantly going through my head? Two things. One is owning your worth.

Jessica: Mhm. Yeah.

Jean: Your inner worth. Yeah. And then and then you say in a myriad of different ways consciousness informs matter.

Jessica: Yes.

Jean: Your spirit comes first, and then the material world. And isn’t that so true? Like we’ve we’ve been taught that like the Bible says, you know, put God first or have no other idol before God, right? So that’s what and I don’t know the Bible that well at all. But your book really speaks to what that means and what that means in your in your life and how you applied that. Um, but I would so not not but but and, and I would like you to tell us what is Light mean because I think it’s really, really important for you to talk about the meaning of light and also, Jessica, feminine power.

Jean: Yeah,

Jean: So please put some meaning to towards those two words.

Jessica: So I obviously get this question a lot because I’m on I’m talking about this on a lot of podcasts. But um, I’ll start by answering this question with a little bit of context from the, the, the book. So when I first pitched the Light Work to a different publisher, uh, they told me that the word Light was problematic and that I couldn’t use it in my title. And it really.. You just shook your head. It was like confusing. I was like, why? And I sat with it. And then it dawned on me. And I write this in the book, that the Light is you. The Light is you, in your fully expressed completely magnificent, unapologetic full power. And that can be very threatening to people. Not because they’re afraid and intimidated by your Light, but they’re often unconscious of the their own Light, unexpressed within themselves. And the way that the Palladians define light is information. Information is a synonym for light. Light is information. It is the information of truth that is stored in the cells of your body. That is, the same cells and data that is made of making the stars. Because we’re all made of stardust. That’s actually science. And we are we are muted. We are dormant. We are asleep. We are afraid of that power. Just look around the the world like mass media and social media and sorry, but big pharma and big food that’s keeping us sick and and weak and and numb.

Jessica: We’re disassociated from that Light within us. And that creates a lot of dis ease and dis disassociation and darkness. Darkness isn’t evil. Darkness is simply the lack of information. Darkness turns into evil, turns into toxicity, turns into self-loathing, hatred, gossip. Hate. War. Because we’re disconnected from the truth. That we’re all we’re all connected. We’re all innately powerful. We’re all innately worthy. We’re all innately, innately needed. And when we are small, we we don’t intimidate people. We don’t disrupt the systems. And so to really live your Light means to live your authentic truth, To step forward with your full power and mission and what you’re here to do. And I believe that if we’re coming from truth, if we’re coming from love, we’re here to help make this world a better, more harmonic, peaceful place where everyone wins, where everyone thrives, not just a select few. And that is threatening to people whether they’re conscious of it or not. And I really studied light through the lens of the palladians. And they’re an extraterrestrial star family from which I am from. And they have they were the ones that spoke to me in the temple of Hathor and the goddess, uh, the goddess of Hathor in Egypt at Dendera. And they were the ones that told me to your question, Jean, the feminine power, this feminine energy, this feminine frequency that is coming down into the planet right now, that is actually returning because this whole planet is a feminine being.

Jessica: We’re on Mother Earth, and we’ve been co-opted by not saying the masculine is bad the toxic, patriarchal, overvalued, dominant, masculine that is disempowered the feminine, not gender, but values. And the Light is this seat of consciousness that lives within all of us, that is here to truly be empowered, sovereign and free. And that not not everybody who’s got, you know, some control remote controls at the top want want human beings to know that they’re sovereign, powerful and free. And and so that is, uh, I think one of my biggest commitments when it comes to my work is, is the feminine is really bringing women home to this sense of their responsibility as feminine bodies on this planet to, at least because we’re in feminine bodies… Again, this isn’t about gender, but to lead a new earth and to create a place that is a world of society, a community of family, a company, a culture, a team that is more, more loving. And I really believe that’s in all of us to do. It’s our responsibility. So that’s what Light is to me. Um, and I ended up going with a different publisher, clearly that loved my title.

Alison : That’s right. Thank you. There’s the door.

Jessica: Yes, exactly.

Alison : Follow the light…Goodbye.

Jessica: You’re not my people.

Alison : Exactly, exactly. You know, it’s interesting because, um. it’s a very big book in terms of the thoughts and the ideas, and it’s a lot of downloading information, at least for me. And yet, I like the way you make it be that I can find things that I can do and questions that I can ask myself. I don’t have to run out and form another PEEDA. I don’t have to go..

Jean:  to Egypt!

Jessica: Right? No,

Alison : I can be here and, you know, in California and I love that. Where did you get, at the end of every chapter you give these invitation and keys….and those are beautiful. How did you come up with all? Because it’s the invitation or questions and the key is sort of meditation or something that really is thought provoking. How did you come up with these?

Jessica: So I love that you asked this question. I love those invitations and keys so much. I there’s such a beautiful, intentional part of the book. I wanted the book to be tangible to, you know, to what you just said. I don’t want you to read it and feel like I got to go to Egypt now. No, I want you to know that you hold the tools right there in your hand by holding my book. And so actionability and implementation is an execution. Like that’s the businesswoman in me. It’s important to me like it doesn’t do you any service to just be inspired and then go off back to your life. Like, I wanted to provide the reader with tools. So I knew at the end of every chapter I was going to provide some some worksheets. Um, and then as, as the book evolved, so did what those tools would be. And I really loved the word invitation. You know, this isn’t a command. This isn’t an, you know, an even a request or an assignment. It’s an invitation. Like, you get to choose to step through your own portal of darkness and light to do this work, to find something new, to turn on the light switch.

Jessica: And back to your question about what is Light? If you notice at the end of every journaling section of every invitation set, the last question is what new information do you now have that you’ve journaled on these? And I didn’t just want to stop with the the journal prompts and having the reader kind of be with them, the these thoughts in their own mind. I wanted them to move it to to experience something, and I have a key tattooed on my heart. Um, the key represents to me the priestess’s key. So when I learned about that archetype many years ago, my teacher taught me a lot about her. But what I took away is that,  one of her elements is still water. Not just water, but still water… Where you can see your own reflection. Where you working with the priestess isn’t there to worship her, but to worship yourself, to see the divinity within yourself. And she’s called the keeper of the keys because she’s here to help you unlock that. And so the key is very significant. There’s a key on the cover of the book, and so I wanted it to be an internal, externalized experience with every chapter because I feel we, you know, to to your point around consciousness informs matter. Thought is, thought creates – we’re we’re living in physical vessels that are our temples, and we store things in our bodies. We store trauma, we store our emotions. We we store stagnant energy. And it it needs to move. And so the invitation paired with the key just felt very complete, so that they there could be real alchemy at the end of every chapter and that it didn’t just stay in one’s head. So thank you so much for asking about those. Those are one of my favorite parts of the whole book.

Alison : I looked forward, I looked forward to them all. You know, every single one. I was like, oh, what’s this? What’s this one going to be, you know, and oh, this is so exciting. You know, just just opening it up. What women in your life do you admire? Yeah. It doesn’t have to be like Oprah. right…I mean, I admire Oprah, but like, you talk about your mom or Pat, you know… .

Jessica: oh yes… Pat.

Jean: I think your I think your prompts are, are are so unique.

Jessica: Thank you.

Speaker1: and wonderful, because I have done I have been on this journey for a long time. And I did think to myself, Jessica, wow, this book is moving you. And um, I probably have 18 years on you and I’m like, huh? There is still more to shed and to embrace and, um, and I love that…

Jessica:  thank you so much.

Jean: It’s so beautiful. So another thing that I love about your book is you are empowering women financially and you speak about that. Can you can you tell our listeners? That money is not a taboo. You are really championing women to get financially strong.

Jessica: Yes, yes.

Jean: Why is that?

Jessica: Well, abundance is our birthright.  I also, I say this often. This is really the ethos of my podcast and so much of my work and all the coaching that I do, but I, I believe that when women have money, women have power. Those two things are conjoined in this reality. And when women have both, I believe this world is going to be a better place. If you imagine, you know, all of the corporations and all the countries and all the institutions and all the, you know, all the industries I’ve mentioned, like if they were run by women, the whole world was run by women. It would just be a different world. Would it be a perfect world? No, but it would be a different world. And I did a lot of research in my book, specifically around the matriarchy. Really goddess cultures. What, what what the world looked like before we could just simply write stuff down. And 4000 years ago, at the dawn of the patriarchy and this world was run by women, this is what I learned. It was a it was a matriarchal society that honored all living things. Women were at the top of the tribes. They could read the seasons and would tell the men when to go hunt based on how the leaves were turning. I mean, it was mind blowing. And so I feel very called to, you know, restore this planet from from many levels.

Jessica: But we’re here in 2024. Women are rising. Entrepreneurship is exploding. Women are making more money than they once did. Not as much. We still make $0.80 to the dollar, but it’s better than $0.60 to the dollar like it was in the 80s. But women are going off and starting their own companies and making their own money, which is beautiful. And I just really want to teach women. I have a whole chapter in the book around power and innate worth that you were born worthy, that you don’t have to prove you’re worthy of nothing, to prove you were born perfectly gifted and needed, but to channel our desires for money from this place of, yes, innate worthiness, but most of all innate safety that we we can hold money, that we are able to make it and hold it, and that we aren’t going to die. You know, we’re programmed from our parents, parents, parents, parents, parents, parents like to live in the sense of survival, and that just keeps women so sick. It keeps our nervous system so fried. It keeps our light so dim. And so to empower ourselves to live financially free is so much more than just being able to buy nice shoes. It’s like… we’re healing the earth by being women who are in abundance. You know, we’re healing the the planet. We’re healing every single person we touch because we we will do good with our money, and we take our gifts as women and channel them, I think, in a in a different way. And to have an overflow is, is how we’re meant to live. And I want women to learn how to do that. And, and I walk, you know, in the book I have these eight divine feminine embodiments of wealth, where I really kind of unpack this whole concept of manifestation and which is such a hot topic today. And I see it and I, I follow a lot of these, you know, teachers, some of them are men, some of them are women. And I, I’m here for it and I get it and it’s it, it has its place, but a lot of it is psychological. It’s like, you know, affirmations and visualizations and expansion and vision boards and thought, you know, thinking states and that’s beautiful. That’s the content, however, not the context that we are actually programmed in our bodies to not feel safe to hold and receive money in the first place. And that’s what we have to really look at and rewire our systems to know that we are deserving to learn how to receive in the first place. I have a you know, section about how women can’t even receive compliments. We’re like so quick to deflect. And so I, I feel that back to that, when women have money, when they have power, and when we have both, this world is going to be better. And, you know, at least those are the women that I ride with. And I want more women to ride with me and and to really live in this state of abundance, true abundance.

Alison : Well, I think we’re on your bus..

Jessica: Yeah, I know you are. I’m on your bus riding with you.

Alison : Um, you know, we were just talking about that about about, um, feeling like we are worthy of being honored.

Jessica: Yes.

Alison : Yes. Just discussing that before.

Jean: And and that’s why I think also this is coming again for me, that worthiness, you know, and that’s why, you know, this book made me cry. It cracked, I don’t know. And I was like, why? Okay, Jean, why are you crying? What’s coming up? And I couldn’t put my finger on it all i know it was just reading your book, so I will… That’s why for me, this book is … I have to go back to a little, um, because, you know, we wanted to read this book because we knew we got the privilege of interviewing you, but I got, like, I can’t go faster.

Jessica: Um, but it’s okay…I get it, it’s a deep book, you know?

Jessica: And I, um, I had a friend read it. She read the whole thing, and she said that she would go to bed after reading it, and she felt like her subconscious mind was being rewired. Yeah. And she was having, like, these wild dreams where she was, like, healing things in her dreams and would wake up with new information from reading my book. And I was like, amazing. Thank you for sharing that. I just I think the book, it’s a personal book and I think it’s going to be read in a personal way based on who’s reading it.

Alison : Could you just you talk about in your book, but I just wanted to bring it up because I think it’s so powerful. Mission versus purpose.

Jessica: Yeah, yeah.

Alison : So I think women women need to hear what your thoughts are on this. I thought they were very interesting.

Jessica: Thank you.

Jessica: So we’ve all heard, like, follow your purpose. Like find your purpose. And I, I sat with that and I was like, what if you don’t find it? Like what happens. Like if you don’t align your life time and you know, identity to something external like that, you do are known for what? Um,  what then and what really inspired that from Egypt. Back to, you know, a story I mentioned in the book, we get to Karnak, which is one of the most significant temples in all of Egypt. It’s in Luxor, and we get, um, close to the parking lot, and our guide comes on the microphone. And every temple sort of has a different message, intention, opportunity to experience that specific medicine of that temple. And my guides tell us all, Karnak is known to be the Temple of Purpose, and some say that people traverse these walls and walk out finding their purpose. And I thought to myself, I mean, this is this is a true story. I was sitting in the back of the bus and I was like, purpose -shmerpurpose. Like I, I know my purpose. Look at my life. You know, like I’ve done enough to know that I’m on purpose. I not going to find anything new at this temple. And I walked around it by myself for a few hours. We got a lot of time at these temples, and, um, I was in this random, obscure structure. I forget the name of it, but I was in this dark room, and this, like, white stream of light was pouring kind of through a crack in the ceiling. And I sort of stood underneath it and I felt something alchemize. I mean, these temples, like I said, they just they move you in ways that are really hard to describe.

Jessica: And I step out of the temple because we had to get back to the bus. And I literally I’m walking out and this tiny white feather floats in front of my face and I like, put my hand out and it lands in my hand. And my friend Laura, who’s like six foot tall, like, is standing next to me looking down. She’s like, did that just happen? Like, because and feathers are my sign. Feathers are my totem. And it’s in that moment I really heard the universe kind of laugh at me. Like you have been living so heavy, living this, doing your purpose. You’ve been killing yourself to build the business and have the book and the podcast and all the things that are so on purpose. So how is that? How is that living, living in your light? If it if this purpose that you’ve created doesn’t sucks you dry. Um. And I got this idea and this like, this notion of, like, what is my true reason for being here? And it my desire is to live as light as a feather, to feel that light, that free and still be powerful. And how can I do that for myself and teach women how to do that, too? Because I know I’m not the only one that’s suffering in this experience. And the Palladians talk a lot about mission. You know, they use the word renegade, they use the word light warrior, and that we’re not here to just build a business or write a book, or launch a beautiful conference, or have this beautiful career on our resume that extends, like in an upward ascension. We’re here to live out a much deeper reason to create a deeper ripple effect in humanity.

Jessica: And that’s your mission, like. And however you express that. But it’s bigger than what you get paid for. And if you can connect what you get paid for to your mission, like, all the better. And I walk the reader through a framework called your creation, which is typically your expression of your career, what you do professionally, your greatest creation, your most amazing accomplishments, your calling, what you would do if you didn’t get paid for it, and your cause. Why are you really here? What is the legacy you’re going to leave behind? What is the pebble in the pond ripple effect that you are going to make? And when we combine those things together, we find our mission, right?

Jean: that’s beautiful.

Alison : It’s really amazing. And I think women need to hear that, I really do.

Jessica: Thank you. I do too.

Jean: When you look at the word enlightenment, that’s that’s exactly what you’re talking about. You know, living from the light within, how it expresses outwardly with joy and you talk about that, too. The power of joy, how vital that is. And it is we’re constantly doing, doing schedule– for the feminine energy, that’s like putting a blanket on her.

Jessica: It is. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Jean: Well, I just think that that we’ve been so layered and programmed that it’s hard to get out of that cycle. But like you said, if doing the work– the book it will slowly melt away that layering and you have to do it like try it or deny it. So —-

Jessica: Yeah.

Jessica: No I, I so appreciate you bringing that into the conversation because in the comment about the blanket like when like that is where the, the feminine rises. And not to say that the feminine doesn’t have shades. You know, I talk about the dark, feminine and sacred rage and just feeling all of our emotions and what a powerful vehicle our emotions are to ascend and to alchemize and transmute. But, when I was in Egypt again, I was in Hathor’s temple. Um, I love for your listeners to read the book, but there is a pretty significant story of what happened to me in that temple. And I got, you know, a lot of downloads, like actual downloads, like spirit, like like chorus of voices speaking to me, through me, through my crown chakra for multiple minutes. And I walked out of that temple.

Jessica: And frankly, got out my iPhone and wrote it all down because I didn’t want to forget any of it And not what I wrote down in my iPhone went into the book like it’s I heard. And, um, one of the things that they told me was like, Jess, you’ve missed you’ve missed the memo girl. Like this, this human experience is meant to be fun. Yeah. This human experience is meant for your pleasure and for your bliss. And we we think that that’s, um, indulgent or something. Or that we have to earn and earn that. And they, they said to me, I, I got these flashes of, like, my puppies and chocolate and I was wearing this really beautiful, like, flowy outfit. And I was I saw my husband, who’s hot, and they were like, you get to have sex with him and you get to kiss those dogs, and you get to wear those cute clothes, and you get to eat that chocolate. Like, every like what a gift it is to be in a human body. And you, you, you take for granted all of it. Like every minute of it. You don’t even realize what a blessing it is to be alive and in this body called you on this plane. And if you don’t enjoy it for us, will you please, if you don’t enjoy it for you? They said this–

Jessica: They’re like, Will you please enjoy it for us? Because we can’t be down there, but you’re missing it and we want you to enjoy it for us. If you’re not going to enjoy it for for yourself. And I just I committed to joy as a radical act. After that trip, I made it my word for the year. I made it my biggest intention, a core value in my life. And whether you’re a man or you’re a woman. Like when we choose joy because joy is a choice. Happiness is a fleeting emotion. Joy is different. Joy is a commitment. Joy is a devotional act. We get into a different frequency state. We actually get our our bodies back into a state of alignment. We’re in our heart space, and when we’re in alignment, we we literally vibrate differently. We become more magnetic. We attract more of what we want. We open up doors of opportunity. Serendipity starts to take place. It’s not like woo woo like, sounds good stuff. It’s it’s real. It’s real. And that was one of the biggest headlines from my whole trip to Egypt, which is a core throughline in the book, is like joy, like joy is the way. And, you know, is it perfect every day? No, but it it’s it’s a commitment for sure that I make.

Alison : Is the Commitment to seeing, um, or being aware in a, in a, in a state of gratitude. Is that a way to attain joy? Like how? Like daily away from Egypt?

Jessica: Yeah, yeah.

Alison : Looking for a parking space and you’re shopping for food and your dog is sick and…

Jessica: Yeah.

Alison : You know. Yeah. Where, how do you, how can you tap into that?

Jessica: Well, life will life and things will happen. And you’re not going to feel joyful every day, but I do I do have some very consistent practices. And for me, joy is so simple. You know, I find joy in simple things. Gratitude is absolutely one of them. I do this almost every day with my husband. I’m like, what are three things you’re grateful for? Let’s start with that. Let’s end with that. Let’s go to dinner and talk about what we’re grateful for. I feel like that is such medicine because we do take so much for granted. We live such, you know, beautiful lives. Just by, I’m sure people listening to this podcast, I think I read, I wrote, I wrote about this in my book. Less than over half the world’s population lives on like less than $5 a day, right? I mean, it’s crazy. So, yes, gratitude. Gratitude all the time. I really have connected with Mother Earth, taking walks like nature walks I picked up art supplies from a local art store and I draw like brings me into my heart space, child like play and joy. I have to spend time at my altar every single morning just to drop in and communicate and ask for protection, or call them in. That is 100% a non-negotiable for me. I love to travel. I still take trips and and break away from work. I’m very blessed right now if I’m going to be, you know, honest. And it’s taken me a minute to get here. Not that I didn’t love what I was doing at my agency. It was always just a little adjacent to what I really wanted to be doing and now what I’m doing is I’m empowering women every day.

Jessica: And yes my schedule is full, but man do I enjoy it. I am so grateful to do this work and to see other women remember who they are and come alive and give them the tools. It’s just that brings me joy. So I’m blessed to have dedicated my career now to the thing I was put here to do. And, you know, just I love to ecstatic dance. I go, I do like conscious sober dance parties on the week, like Like anything that brings me joy. Like I have a Stanley___ like this brings me joy. Like, honestly— it’s like, it’s like.. I don’t go anywhere without it.  It’s kind of a problem.

Jessica: I like, try to live in that vibration. I just, I just do, you know. Is it everyday perfect? No, I, I’m human. I have I’ve had plenty of ups and downs, especially in the last year. We moved, launched a book, sold my business like life is amazing, but it’s a lot. And, um, that’s what I’m saying. It’s a devotion. Like it’s a daily devotion to joy in the simplest and the most extreme forms, and it changes our energy when we’re in a state of joy when we commit to that.

Jean: And that’s the key to everything…. Is changing your energy, your vibe, your attitude.  Like you said, be a magnet and be able to receive more.

Jessica: Yeah.

Alison : I love that you’re not saying things like Lamborghini or do you know what I mean? Like you’re saying very, things that are very accessible to everybody, everywhere, which I think is very important.

Jessica: Yea..

Alison : You seem very relaxed. How has life been after Egypt for you? I mean, I’m sure the book is ah, like how, how how are you, how are you?

Jessica: I’m good. I mean, I’m in the middle of a book launch right now, which is like a business on top of a business. So I’m very full, but I’m talking about my book, you know, and it’s nothing, nothing is bringing me more joy than than lately. But, um, thank you for that reflection. I, I, I say I died in Egypt like, I had a full on death in that temple of Hathor that I write about in the book. And, um, I came home new and I that’s the opening section of the book. I am new and I something happened to me there where, you know, DNA, I think shifted. And I’ve really committed to slowness. I’ve committed to softness. I have been very committed to my nervous system healing. I have started, I changed my diet. I drink more minerals. I ground every day. I have better boundaries.  I moved cities, I’m no longer in Chicago or it’s go go go. I’m in Nashville. Um, yeah. Which is, you know, perfect for me. And, um, my husband and I live in a very naturist area. I, I get out regularly. I have to walk almost every day, I hug trees.

Jessica: I’m not joking. Like, I go sit in parks and commune with trees on a regular basis. I just really, um, I guess what I really want to communicate is I was not in not in my body like I was authentic, but I wasn’t, as in not embodied. Although that’s parallel but literally comfortable being in my body because I had so much stress and anxiety and I was constantly leaving my body. And I’ve made it a practice to not leave, and it has softened me. Yeah. Um, and I it’s it’s healed me. And I see, you know, a lot of women, I just, I did a podcast, um, a couple months ago on my own show called Why Entrepreneur? Why high performing women have been duped. Um, to think that when we achieve all the things that we’re somewhat successful and powerful and how it’s just run us so ragged. Yeah. To get there. And we’ve just lost our way of what it really is like to be in a feminine body and how we should treat it. And I try and practice what I preach and, um, just move a lot slower these days. Yeah, just as much as I can in a book launch.

Alison : Slow is wonderful.

Jean: It is. And you’re just pointing people into the most beautiful direction.

Jessica: Thank you.

Jean: (caughing)Excuse me. And that’s to your heart and to your worth.

Jessica: Thank you.

Jean: Life and your light.

Jessica: I love you, ladies.

Alison : You really are so amazing. And we just were so looking forward to talking to you. And when I finished this, I have to say, I read that whole thing and I read that I read all your resources and I went, I’m great. I’m a great.

Jean:  You are!

Jessica: You are.

Alison : I’m all– I’m doing good. Like I, I’m cooking and that’s what this that’s what I just got chills again. That’s what this made me feel. So thank you so so much and huge joyful blessings to you and to your husband and your dogs.

Jean: And thank you so much for coming back on.

Alison : yes, you’re so kind.

Jean: You are. You’re such a generous, gorgeous spirit. Jessica. And we will be yelping you and championing you and whatever your.. And just know we’re in your corner. And we will do our part to hold our joy, as a mission of, we got this.

Jessica: We do got this.. We’re in this together. You ladies are light workers. You’re light workers. And I met you before I even wrote this book. And I knew we were cut from the same star seeds. And you just, it’s a joy to be in your energy. And I’m so blessed to know you both. And to have you in my corner. And to know that I’m in yours and that to be seen, you know, is like one of the most deepest human yearnings of them all. And just I really feel like, um, I’m getting a little emotional. You see me, and it’s been a very just been a gift to know you. So, of course, I was coming back. I was looking forward to this as much as you were, I really was. I love I’m like, yay, I get to be with them again.  I was not going to pass this up.

Alison : You’re fantastic. And let’s stay in touch. And that’s it. I just wanted to say you’re just- everyone should read the Light Work. I really believe that. Yeah, I think it’s a…

Jean: I think that’s going to be my Amazon review.

Alison : Oh yeah. Yeah okay. We got it.

Jessica: Amazing. Ladies, I’m just so grateful for your time and your energy and your presence and your words. I’m just really, truly today was it was the highlight of my week. Thank you for having me.

Jean: Same. We love you.

Alison : Have a beautiful day.

Jessica: You too.

Jean: Bye Well, I think she hit it out of the park.

Alison : Yep! That’s all.. Have a nice day.

Jean: Yeah. That’s it.

Alison : Yeah. That’s it. I mean, uh, she’s so, uh, calm now and very together. And I felt very, very vulnerable at the same time and very open. And I felt, I feel like with her, like she really wants the best. I’m sorry. My thing is going off. She really wants the best for everyone. She wants– you really get that sense that it’s not about writing the best book. It really is about helping us and helping everyone, including herself, to achieve the sort of awareness that can move us to feel really good about ourselves and to accomplish really wonderful things, big and small.

Jean: Right? Well said. Uh, it goes back to that phrase, you know, we teach what we need to learn, or how about we teach what we need to remember. And her book is all about remembering that we are Light, we are Love. And you know when the outer world gets so loud and we get very distracted. And we’re living in the, the always the intellect, you know, we’re losing our spark. We’re losing our light. And she gives so many great examples how to dial it back. And I’m so grateful for this beautiful book.

Alison : Yes, and I really am going to I’m really going to go through it again now that I read it, just for the interview sake. You know, I really want to go back and really delve into those invitations and keys.

Jean: Because she had some great questions, and I and I kept thinking to just get through, get through the book. And but I was like, I’m just going to be with that question for a little bit.

Alison : And I love that she says, do it in a community. If you have a community of women, yes, that you really would love to experience something different with, get together, read the book, do the keys, do the invitation. And I think that only I think, I think people, when they come together in a community, the power that you can generate is infinite.

Jean: That might be a book for our next book club.

Alison : Yes, exactly. Yeah, I think it would be great.

Jean: Right. Well, Jessica, you’ve given us a beautiful legacy of love, and we’re so grateful. And thank you, thank you, thank you.

Alison : Thank you, thank you, and thank you Jeannie…

Jean: Thank you, sweet Allison.

Alison : Have a great day.

Jean: Bye bye.

 

Alison: Jean!

Jean: Alison!

Alison: Here we are!

Jean: We made it.

Alison: We did, we did. You had a busy morning.

Jean: I did have a busy morning. I was taking my friend, well, our friend Kathleen to look at some possible, uh, retirement homes.

Alison: That’s beautiful. Yeah. It’s so great that you’re doing that.  I think always doing it with a friend is excellent.

Jean: Yeah..I think doing anything like that with someone, uh, that way you can bounce off ideas.

Alison: Right. And so,  did did you see this? Yeah. I didn’t see that, I saw that. Did you see this? Yeah, I love that. And you’re the perfect person to do that with. You and Kathleen are such a good team.

Jean: Well I mean, I do love her so, and I know the right and perfect place will be revealed to her..

Alison: Because you’re going to manifest that.

Jean: Because I’m going to hold the energy.

Alison: Correct.

Jean: Yes, and be open and receptive to having this desire already filled.

Alison: That’s right. And that is exactly what we’re talking about today with Christy Whitman. She wrote a fantastic book called The Desire Factor-.

Jean: How to Embrace Your Materialistic Nature, to Reclaim your full Spiritual Power.

Alison: That’s a beautiful sentence.

Jean: Yeah. Isn’t it though? Yeah. Uh, so I love how she links the physical world to the spiritual world. And I and I know we’re going to receive a lot of benefit from our interview with her.

Alison: Right. It’s going to be great. So, are you ready?

Jean: I’m ready.

Alison: All right, here we go.

Alison: And you’re like, oh, hi!…

Christy Whitman: I love it. I love it, you guys.. I come on and you’re both laughing. That’s amazing.

Alison: We’re always we’re always laughing.

Christy Whitman: That’s it, I love it.  Then I’m in the right place. Hi.

Alison: Hi, how are you? I’m Allison.

Christy Whitman: Hi, Allison.

Jean: I’m. My name is Jean.

Christy Whitman: And hi, Jean.

Jean: We have been so excited to  talk with you about your wonderful book.

Christy Whitman: Oh thank you, I love that, I love that.

Alison: I have so many questions. Um, so I was saying to Jean, wait a minute… How does this work this way? How does this happen? So you, can you just sum up the thought process and the idea of this book for our listeners?

Christy Whitman: Yes, so we have desires that come from an inspired place. And when we deny those desires like, oh, I don’t know how I’m too old, you know, I’m too young, I don’t have this, I don’t have that… I’ll have it when. I have it….. Then all of that takes us away from that connection of what the desire actually creates for us. (So excuse me, plane flying over head)  so it’s never about, and yet it is, the end desire–  it’s the process of who we become in it, in attaining that desire or not.  It’s always the process of who we, who we get to become. So sometimes, you know, we wish for something or desire for something, and then later we’re like, thank God that didn’t happen, you know?

Jean: Right, like that saying you be careful what you wish for.

Christy Whitman: Yes, exactly.

Alison: Or like when people when something doesn’t happen, a lot of my friends will say that was the biggest blessing that that didn’t happen.

Christy Whitman: Yes, there’s a Garth Brooks song. Thank God for unanswered prayers.

Alison: Yes, yes. Yeah, that’s exactly it. And you have such good. You have, um, like seven principles to follow, and some of them are so interesting to me. Like, like the principle of having, do you know, is so interesting because you don’t realize that sometimes you’re wishing for something is actually reinforcing lack.

Christy Whitman: Yes. It’s a feeling of separation… Because that feeling of, um, I’ll have it when or I’ll have it then, it’s always delaying that vibration, you know, it’s like it’s not part of us. We’ll have it later. Or we say when that happens or, um, even when the client the other day, she’s like, well, I could feel something’s going to be happening or something’s going to happen. And it’s like, no, something’s already happening.  you know what I mean? It’s it’s the it’s the field of whatever my desire is, as I can picture it, I’m already creating an energetic connection to it– and you know, and then that starts the whole thing of it. But the principle of having is where you’re already in such a contented place with it and you feel so fulfilled, there’s no like, oh, I wish I had it, or, you know, I’d be complete if or when or any of that you have it so you can feel settled on your way to it. When it manifests in the physical, it’s always energy first, right?

Jean: Yeah, Well, what you just said there, it’s always energy first…. And I think what you just said is, is the crux of your book, you know, getting your energy in alignment, uh, with, with your desire, whatever your desire is..so like you say, if it’s a Gucci purse or if it’s, um, you know, a wellness center, whatever that is. And, um, can you talk a little bit just for our listeners, like what made you become so passionate about this field of study?

Christy Whitman: Well, you know, it was a religious science practitioner, like yourself, Jean.   I was on a journey of, you know, the traditional… I graduated from college. I got engaged, you know, I did this, this, this and this. And I thought, then I will finally be happy, you know…

Christy Whitman: I actually did have a moment, I had a moment in my life when I was in Capri, and I saw all of the beautiful designer,  purses…like, Fendi and that was like, oh, but I haven’t another than that… I haven’t experienced that. But, um, I was waiting for that, right, and it’s like, wait, I checked everything off and I’m still not happy, you know? So if it’s not all these things I was told or I thought or I assumed, then what is it? And that that just opened up my hunger, my thirst. And we’re talking almost 30 years ago. Um, um, where, you know, I was doing traditional therapy and it was like, there’s got to be something even more. I feel like I’m still missing something. And that hunger, that thirst led me to, um, move to California. And I met a hairdresser who was just so different, and I didn’t have the words I could explain and describe now. But I didn’t have the words back then. But I was just observing her and noticing that she was so light filled and there was just something different about her. And so finally being as curious and as blunt as I am, I’m like, okay, what did you what do you do? And she says, I meditate. And at this point in time I was like a very sheltered girl from Scottsdale, Arizona. You know, middle class family went to ASU, you know, like moved to Chicago, like I had a very sheltered life and I didn’t know anybody at this point who meditated.

Christy Whitman: And back then we didn’t have the internet. And, you know, if you didn’t see it happening, it didn’t exist. Right? But it wasn’t on TV. It didn’t really exist. Right? I mean, so that when she said she meditated, it was like my mind went to like, some guru guy… with a long white beard, sitting in Yogi style on top of a mountain. It was like my brain went, you know? And she was this hip chick from San Ramon, California, had a boyfriend, a dog, you know, living a normal life. And so she she taught me about her, talked to me about her meditation because I was like that woman in Harry met Sally, you know, because I was like, I want what she’s having. Right… I’m like, I don’t care who it was, how she got it, I wanted it. So, um, I literally left the salon. She gave me her meditation teachers number, left the salon, and back in the day, there was a big phones. Right. I’m dialing it and left a message, and I came to her house. It was a couple of weeks later and I walk in and she’s got angel statues and clinky clunky music and incense and, you know, she invites me to sit on the floor on a cushion and I am going, Scottsdale, Arizona. I was like, what? What? I mean, this is so weird for me, right? Right. Um, but she looked like deep into my eyes and into my soul like nobody ever did.

Christy Whitman: And she just said, you create your own reality. And when again, I had never heard that. And when she said that, something in me opened up and I went, yes, how? Yeah, I that is true. I create. And then my mind went, well how do I how do I create my own reality? And that’s where I started with thoughts and paying attention to thoughts. And then I was just so hungry that I went, when I moved to Redding, California, I happened to go to the church of Redding, uh, religious science. And Terry Cole-whittaker came and spoke. And you know, (btw,she endorsed my very first book) when she spoke, i sat there, you know, in the morning, just ready to go to church and, you know, get uplifted. I was mesmerized by her, because she had so much passion and just just a light in her. And I was, you know, my mind was like back then (i don’t do this at least as much.) I try not to, um, but I was comparing myself to her. I’m like, I don’t have that passion in my life,  what lights her up, because I certainly don’t have that. It was another one of those, i’ll have what she’s having moments. Right. And, uh, she was very, very generous and very courteous. And, um, she had bought, she was selling this workbook to how to learn about these things called, the universal laws.

Christy Whitman: And I had been meditating and I had been practicing, but one of the laws that she talked about, which absolutely changed my reality in that moment, was the law of sufficiency and abundance.  I just started applying that and really studying what is lack? What is abundance? What you know, and understanding. Where do I do it? In my consciousness, meaning what I say, what I think, how I feel? And, um, she was graciousness, gracious enough because I got to a place where all of a sudden I had a download in the middle of the night, in which I got up and started, you know, writing. And that’s where I first started, you know, channeling and scribing and, um, after three days of being woken up at 1:05 in the morning and getting, getting up and and writing, I emailed Terry Cole-whittaker and I said, I think I’m writing a book. How do you get a book published? And she she guided me. She literally said, go online and find a literary agent. So I typed in literary agent, not pop this guy’s face. And he was a publisher and a literary agent. And, you know, on and on it went. I got it published. And then I started speaking on the topics and helping people do the energy work. And then people asked me to coach, and I had no idea what coaching was. This is 23 years ago… Life coaching. I’m like people would describe it to me and I’m like, people get paid to do that?

Christy Whitman: Like, you know, like call me on the phone and I’ll walk you through it, you know? So it just it just kept leading into each. It was just that seeking and leaning in and wanting to grow and wanting to still continue to expand. And it was all based on even what I wrote about in The Desire Factor, the desire to stay in light, the desire to serve. Um, one thing I want to mention is that during this time when I started opening up, my sister, who was 11 years older than me, took her life. And that moment literally just, change the world as I knew it… And at the same time was the first opportunity I had to really apply what I was learning to be able to really, um, be with sadness or be with anger, you know, really, really process my emotions as energy and not let them just, you know, get stuck in there. And, um, doing that helped me realize that, if I could do, help one person, you know, not have to go through what she had to go through or, you know, she didn’t feel she had the resources or the support in order to get. I hope that I help and I now look back on my, you know, 17 year, full time but 23 year career of an author, and and I think I’ve helped more than one. So it feels really good to know that that you know, that kind of sparked it all.

Alison: So what a beautiful what a beautiful story. And I’m so sorry about your sister.

Christy Whitman: Thank you.

Alison: So so sorry. Um, you know, uh, I’m going to be full disclosure, so Jean’s  laughing already because she knows I, um. When I first started reading the book, I felt a certain amount of resistance, because I feel like, um, when, you describe a lot of personal things in the book, your son being transverse, your son’s operations. And I thought, well, how great for you, honestly, how beautiful that it worked out. But there’s a woman somewhere that it didn’t work out, maybe doing the same exact things that you’re doing. And my fear is, does that person feel, Ohhh I really screwed up? I should have just been…. I let fear come in. I let doubt come in into my thoughts. I wanted my son to be in the right position for the birth and I, I, I connected, and I felt like it was going to happen and then it doesn’t.  I feel shy about the idea of putting it on the person, because they’re all really feeling bad already.

Christy Whitman: Yes, yes.

Alison: Can you help me with that?

Christy Whitman: Yes, So first of all, I love that you’re you’re asking this question. I love that you’re bringing this up because that’s why in the book, and I believe the journey that I went through in writing that book and the examples that I use about, you know, beat Shazam and wanting to go out, like having a desire and not having it come to fruition.

Alison: Yes…That’s fantastic.

Christy Whitman: In the end, you know, it’s like if someone could look at the book and I actually had people go, well, then it didn’t work. You, you had this desire and you applied all the principles and the thing that you ultimately wanted to do when applying these principles is get on this show. But you didn’t get on the show. You didn’t ultimately win the million dollars. Right? I’m talking, you know. Right.  so, um, but the energy that was created in applying these principles, it didn’t come in that form, but it came in other forms and in other opportunities. And, you know, so a lot of times we get very attached to it looks like this, or it has to be that, or I really want this. And when that form doesn’t, you know, we don’t hit the exact target or it’s not this thing or that doesn’t manifest, know that the energy never gets wasted, right? That just gets like to be the, the focus. But the energy is still set up. So, you know, when someone is and especially if someone has something that is, you know, traumatic or where they’re deeply grieving it, like it could be a loss. The way to work with this whole entire thing of energy is understanding that there are energies or there are, um, emotions. Let’s just call it, like look at it like a piano keyboard, right? There are lower level vibrations there are higher level of vibrations.

Christy Whitman: And there are universal things like grief. And it could be a grief of I didn’t hit that, I didn’t get that manifestation. So there’s a let down, right?  or there’s a there’s another level of disappointment. There’s grief happens. Even when we we wanted that house made an offer on that house. We visualize ourselves in that house and then someone else gets it. And now there’s that letdown, right? That emotion, that letdown, that anything that’s in negative, lower level emotions. Right. There’s processes to help us release those energies so that we can come back and be neutral. Because if I, if I look at and how I interpret, interpreted and have lived with what I learned from Terry Cole-whittaker is that it’s the law of sufficiency and abundance. So if we’re feeling bad, you know, and we’re, say, disappointed with something, but we don’t process that disappointment, that disappointment creates an imprint to create more attachments or more attraction to more things that disappoint us, more people or situations, because that’s the vibration that we’re at. So we need to process those lower level energies. And we don’t do that by going, ah, you dummy, why did you put yourself out there again? Oh, see, things don’t work out for you, might work out for her, but it doesn’t work out for you. You know, other people get what they want… like all of those beliefs, all that stuff.

Christy Whitman: So it’s not a time to beat yourself up. It’s a time to let yourself have compassion. And compassion is that second bucket, if you will. Like the the lack that never feels good. My cliff notes version of of lack. You know you you’re in lack because you do not feel good. It always feels bad.. It just feels horrible. But then thoughts of abundance, right? Something you’re excited about, something that’s, you know, look, you’re looking forward to something, you know, you have an abundance of something that always feels good. But a lot of times it’s hard to go from lack into abundance. So that sufficiency and abundance, it’s that second bucket of compassion, sufficiency. Sometimes it’s just saying to yourself ah, okay, I’m okay. Like that moment of, it’s going to be okay, like that, take your breath, ground yourself. That allows you to come back into that neutrality, so that you can then have the higher vibrations available. Because if we’re in lack, they’re not available. They’re in two different vibrational scales. It goes back to that conversation we were having with having. If you’re want you’re wanting love, abundance, success, you know, freedom, whatever that is. And you’re in like, I don’t have, I’m lonely. I, you know, I don’t have enough. Oh, God, what about the future… When you’re in there, which a lot of people do, and and and believe me, I lived with master teachers of that.

Speaker2: My mom and dad are like the masters of that… you could be in Paradise and still complain, you know? So I learned from the best and I was, you know, I, I really had to disconnect myself from that. And still, you know,  I always equate it to like, a junk drawer. You clean out the junk drawer, and then somehow you still, like, it junks back up like… Yeah. So it’s like every once in a while, I still got it, you know, putting out my junk drawer and of of thinking in lack or, you know, projecting into a future that is scary or, you know, I’m worried about because, we have access to all this energy we have access to, to just the energy of calm, peace, compassion, soothing. And then once we’re there, calming whatever we need to calm, you know, then we can look towards, okay, what do I want this future? Because our now is creating our future,  and our past has a big influence on that future. Based on what are we holding it or are we letting it go? We surrendering it? Are we staying stuck in that negative energy and staying stuck in that lack? Or are we finding our neutrality back into that, okay, this is sufficient. This is okay. I’m all right. Right. Yeah. And then proceed from there.

Alison: So, so glad you said that. I’m so glad you explained that. Because when I got to the end of the book, I was like, yay!

Alison: Like, it’s perfect about the surrender. I was so happy that you that you summed it up that way. And you know, we have we have a mutual friend that wanted a boyfriend more than anything, more than anything. And  once she said to me, I have no love in my life, I have no love in my life. And I said, you have two kids. And she’s like, yeah, but that’s different. And I said, it’s like, I think what I loved about what you said, is you you have abundance… It may not be what you look, it looks like over here- but she did have love in her life. And the minute she kind of leaned into that, this boyfriend popped in.

Christy Whitman: That’s how it happens.

Jean: Yeah, that’s how it happens. But also, the same friend we’re thinking about, um, also when she said, and i remember the day she acknowledged, she said, you know what? If I never get a guy,  I’m okay. I am enough. And then literally, she, I don’t know what happened–.

Christy Whitman: Just in a minute. And now they’re so happy… Yeah. And it’s exciting.

Christy Whitman: It is because, you know, it’s like once you get into that– I’m not desperate. I had a client, God bless her,she was just so cute. One time she said to me, listen, I have a vision board. I have my affirmations, I’m doing my meditations. I am fully like, you know, I am into it. And she’s like, where is he? I’ve been waiting forever. You know, it was like, that’s a totally different vibration. You know, you got still that that if it’s impatient and there’s desperation that’s still a vibration– it’s called split energy. So it’s like, I want to but, I want them but,  you know, he’s here I feel him but he’s not you know, it’s that split energy and it’s acknowledging that part, that part that is impatient because when we can go, okay, what are you impatient about? What’s the i gotta have them now because I’m not… I’m not enough or my life can’t start until. Or all the things that we say… Until we have that amount of money, or we have that accomplishment, or we’ve gone on that show and did this or that or, you know, whatever the thing we project out and that’s, I mean, that’s really the key to life.

Christy Whitman: I have a dear friend who, um, has been financially very abundant.  Her husband retired in his 30s. They, you know, had lived a very affluent life and just recently had, um, you know, it was a –it’s a different way of life. And so they don’t have a house anymore, which, you know, they they’re renting a house, but they don’t have that security that she used to feel and dependent to. And she’s saying, well, I can’t feel secure again until we have a house. And I’m like, but you’re you’re basically putting what you have accessible and available to you right now. And what you choose is to feel how you want to feel. You, of all people, know what it feels like to be secure. There’s a lot of people out there that have had financial, you know, despair all their life and they can’t connect to that feeling of affluence or, you know, abundance, or they have a harder time because they just don’t know how. But you’ve already have that those memories of that security, of that love of freedom, the passion, whatever it may be for any of us and and being able to connect in as best as we can. That’s where that, you know, almost like that, f…ake it till you make it. When you’re working with energy, you don’t have to fake it, because if you start imagining it and then you start partnering with that energy, it’s very real.

Speaker2: And then you’re so satisfied that that’s where, yes, you still have to take action as part of us in our roles and, you know, part of our consciousness. We move, we have a behavior, we do something. We are a cooperative, like we say in the book. Right? It’s like we’re a cooperative component in the manifestation, right? There’s life force moving through us individually and collectively. So to create, you know, to have experiences, to expand into love to I mean, there’s a lot of reasons, but moving in that direction of focusing on what we want and why we want it, and then feeling as if we have it now, I’m secure now. That then draws it to us instead of repels it from us. And most people are living like that. I’ll be happy when you know when this happens, or I feel like you know something’s gonna happen. It’s, it’s always out in the future in which we’re disconnected from. And like you were saying about your friend, she connected in, it was like it surrendered it. And and it’s like, you know what? Wait. I do have love. I do have freedom. I do have security. I do have abundance. Look for what we do have what’s right and good is the way to go into more abundance.

Alison: That’s beautiful.

Jean: Yeah. Beautifully said. Um, I want to circle back to something you said before, Christy, about, when you’re not feeling good. You are entertaining thoughts of lack and fear. Something to that effect, right? I think, I think that’s so powerful because it shows, you know, that our bodies are, um, tools to to guide us. Hey, I’m feeling really low right now. What am I thinking? I mean, it takes that time to say, oh, I’m, i’m actually worried about my child right now. I’m worried about the stock market. I’m worried about if I’m going to find a place for my mother to live, you know, and that’s huge.

Christy Whitman: It’s everything. It’s everything. Because when you really think about it, and this is what I love about what the council brought through, who I’m a messenger for…. when you really break it down, it’s like we’re only responsible, and the only thing we really can control is our own consciousness. And what is our consciousness if we really break it down, it’s what we say, the very words that we say have power, right? The thoughts that we think and entertain, the conversations we’re having in our heads, the images, you know that the even just the self images, how I hold myself in relation to– it could be money, success, a relationship, whatever it may be when we see ourselves, in a successful relationship with money, career, whatever it is, then we usually manifest it. But if we are fighting it or can’t see that, can’t connect with it in our consciousness, it’s so far away from us. Or it’s almost like you’re talking about another life or another human being– someday when you know. Right? So it’s it’s our words, our thoughts, our pictures, our images, our beliefs. Right? Perspectives. There’s lots of way of saying that, our emotions, our feelings and then our actions and beyond that, anything else that spirals around us and in our orbit… it’s our, um, energetic attachment that creates a reaction from us. And so if we don’t like the reaction, if we don’t, you know, if we’re not feeling good and we don’t like the thoughts that we’re thinking about that thing, we can change it. It’s amazing.

Jean: The good news. Yeah.

Christy Whitman: It is. Yeah.

Alison: Right. Yes it is. Yeah.

Christy Whitman: I remember years ago, my husband, um, when I first met him…  he lived in, he’s Canadian and I met him and, and when I was in the States and then I moved to Canada in Montreal with him. And he was always so resistant about paying taxes and almost, almost so that it’s like he knows he needs to, everybody needs to right..  it’s like death, right? We’re all going to go through it and no one gets out of this alive. Unfortunately.

Jean: I used to have a teacher that said, there’s only two things you have to do, pay taxes and die.

Alison: That’s right.

Christy Whitman: Very true and another thing that’s also consistent is that there’s always transition. We’re always in transition. Right. It’s like nothing ever stays the same. We’re always in this place of transition. So if we know these things right, but one of them is taxes. We have, we need to pay that. It’s important. But the perspective of —   I make all this money.. How come I… You know, it reminds me  a Friends episode, when she gets her first job and she opens up her paycheck… She’s like, whose FICA? Why’d they take all my money, right? You know, that’s a perspective of like, hey, how come i gotta pay all this, right? Or there’s a different perspective of, when you pay taxes this goes to, you know…it’s your protection, it goes to fire, it goes to police, it goes it goes to the nice roads. We had a child that went into the hospital and, you know, I didn’t have to pay anything because we lived in Canada. I mean, it paid everything. It was like we had to pay a lot of taxes. But for me, it was like, I am so happy to pay these taxes because they took care of my son, right?  so it’s a different way… If we have resistance on anything, it could be mother in law, it could be money. And and a lot of people do, that resistance creates our reality. But if we if we make nice, you know, if we’re kind of pushing a reset button almost on, um, you know, everything we learned about money or money bad, you know?. Then then we could create our own energetic connection. Then we create our own quantum field, our own reality, then our own, our own, you know, life we’re living.

Alison: So when you just said that, like, like it’s interesting because I think people think sometimes, um, about the house, the purse, the relationship… But you might be in a relationship right now, that is challenging. And  you’re, saying you can switch that.

Up, even if the other person doesn’t participate.

Christy Whitman: Indeed.

Alison: And the way to do that is fill in the blank.

Christy Whitman: Connecting with your own energetic connection, connecting with yourSelf. Because what happens when we are relating with others, and the way we learn is, I do something and mommy goes, yay! Right.  We look for reactions of, if I do this, mom’s not happy, if I do this… if I get good grades, mom’s happy– if I get bad grades…, you know, or dad, you know. The conditioning, the conditioning starts, and we get very cemented in our learning desk, phone, computer. Right? So we don’t have to relearn these things, but we get concrete in the up, down, left, right, very polarized, good, bad, right? And so in that, we are always looking out for, am I okay, am I good, am I beautiful, am I, you know worthy, am I enough? What’s everybody else’s reaction is?  Am I being provided for? Well, maybe I don’t have what they have? Maybe I’m not enough? We we make it very personal. As if, well, I get, you know, I did everything I could, and I worked as hard as I could, and I still didn’t get it. So maybe I’m not supposed to be wealthy, or maybe I’m not supposed to be successful. Right? So we’re constantly looking out at how, let me survey everybody else to see how I am.

Christy Whitman:  What we need to start doing is understanding that, the idea that if they change or if the money was different, or if my outer thing would change, then I would be okay or happier. Fill in the blank. Right? So the alignment with our own multidimensional self. Right. And that’s even like the four bodies that we have here. Four bodies okay. You got your mental body, so your mind, you have your emotional body, the physical body which is a reflection of the mental and the emotional body. And then your energy body which is a reflection of all three. So you know, when we could be like, and we see I see this all the time as a coach, like someone spoke, I’ve been focusing on, you know, on being positive but like they’re angry inside, you know, or like that one girl, I’m like, I could see us being married, i see our kids, i have their names. Where is he? You know, that level of just something’s kind of off, right?  so in that scenario, if he would come, then I would be okay, and like with your friend, she got okay. And then he came into her experience. When we have resistance to someone that we’re in a relationship with, we have some kind of history with them. Right? We think we know they’re going to react this way. We start putting them in a box. We start thinking of them as this way, and as we do that, we see them, (I like to think of it as looking at an outfit… I love fashion, right? As you can tell from my book, when you look at an outfit, you might go shoe to tope, or you might go top to shoe, right?) When  we put someone in a box, it’s like we’re looking at their shoes and we don’t go up further, you know, we don’t see something that’s a full experience. We just put, we only see a very limited view of them based on our own past experiences. And so it becomes a they are this way. And that’s why it’s really important not to put labels on someone, because I hear this and it’s kind of dangerous. And my, you know, people say, well, he’s such a narcissist, okay, tat person is now in a label and they can’t ever change, right? Right. That he is the most selfish person I have ever met. You know, he’s a he’s oh, he’s a teenager. I hear that all the time. I have to catch myself too, because I’m like, I have two teenage boys. He’s really grumpy right now. Always being a teenager. Right. Well, my other one’s not grumpy. So what is teenage? What does teenager mean, right? Even questioning that, but that your own alignment with your own mind, your own emotions, your physical body and your energy body? Now you’ve got a focal point within yourself. And if you’re feeling good and you’ve got good thoughts about the other person, and you’re connecting with the total part of them, the soul part of them, right? The energy part of them, the parts that remembering the positive aspects and the reasons why you either fell in love or were attracted to them or wanted to be in a partnership or  the good qualities, right? I even, as a trick as my oldest son, I have I took a baby picture and I put it in a drawer in the kitchen because as he’s having some of his mood swings, I open it up and I look at the baby and I’m like, oh my God, I love him.

Christy Whitman: And then I’ll close the door back. You know, just a reminder because I need to put a boundary to not talk to me like that. Even though you’re grumpy, you know, it’s like, I don’t need to be talked to like that. And then I have to remind myself, okay, reset button. You love him, you know? So. B it’s alignment with ourselves. I have completely changed my relationship with my mother. Um, where it used to be just totally critical. And now she’s my biggest cheerleader. And I will tell you, she’s she’s she’s the 88 year old woman has never done any type of energy work, personal development therapy, doesn’t understand coaching or law of attraction or any of that kind of stuff. So if our relationship can be changed by one, you know, there’s lots of evidence of that.

Alison: So you have baby pictures of lots of people in that drawer. Yeah. hahah

Christy Whitman: No, just my son.  hahah…That’s the junk drawer. The stuff with all these things.

Alison: Right. Exactly,

Jean: I love that. Yeah. I mean, it’s it’s so true about our perception, right?  you know, like, shifting our perception about a situation–

Christy Whitman: Anything or everything. Yeah.

Jean: So you really champion and I do too, getting an alignment with your higher Self  How? If you had to share, Christy, and please do, what are two ways someone can get centered rather than feel scattered?

Christy Whitman: I love that. Yes. Thank you for asking that. So meditation, I mean meditation is one of those tools… that it’s like go into the gym, pick lifting up weights. If you do it consistently, it’s going to, it’s going to affect you. Right. It’s going to your body will change. Meditation is the same way, when you do it consistently, when you’re in struggle, when you’re in a place of resistance and surrendering it and going into a quiet place, that will help you go from such a outer, um, focused expression, to an inner and, you know, really coming into the interior of who we are, it’s just an essential, it’s essential key piece of, at least from my life, that’s what changed my life, and all of my clients lives, too, over the, you know, all these years. That the second piece for me, though, is really, um, energy mastery. And that’s one of the things that the council and I teach, and it could be as simple as changing a word. Right? If you say, I can’t or I miss or, you know, a lot of I’ll try or, you know, these words that are, um, low vibration, that constrict energy.  Mastering your energy could just be, you know, changing from I can’t do that right now or I just can’t handle it to, you know, i choose not to handle this anymore. I choose not to have it this way. I choose to make it different. Right? It’s very different than feeling like a victim and I can’t.

Christy Whitman: So energy mastery processes are important and one of my absolute favorites is literally like when you wake up in the morning and you have a conscious awareness that, okay, um, I’m alive. There’s a day, you know, that moment where you’re like, okay, um. Not just jumping into the day, but just sitting into the energy and feeling as if your soul is literally all around you. So because it is, and, you know, feeling, I like to feel as if I’m in my soul’s bubble. So like five feet above, five feet below, in front to the sides. And I just like to feel that, like, almost like I’m just nurtured and comforted in that energy because that’s, that just starts a nice soothing, you know, it’s like pushing a reset because it is, it’s like a push pushing a but most people go, oh no, I don’t have enough time. I didn’t get enough sleep. I didn’t, you know, we immediately get into that thinking lack. Right. So this kind of just gives a moment to just stay present and then connect with your soul and then, um, to turn up the volume on that a little bit, too, is that your soul represents every vibration, nothing lower than compassion because it doesn’t connect with negative emotions at all. It’s a completely just human experience that the soul just goes, okay, you’re on your own even though it’s still there. We have a different level of focus and awareness.

Christy Whitman: So now, it’s as if it’s it could be behind us, but we don’t see it. Right? It’s like the sun, we know it’s going to come out tomorrow, but at night time we don’t see it. We know it’s there. Right. But um, but it’s, you know, it’s it’s remembering when you’re in a dark place or in your negative place that bring in the, the the energy of compassion of your soul that will help neutralize you. But if you’re waking up and you’re feeling good, you’re connecting with your soul. Today you might go today, i want to feel joy, right? Today I’m intending, you can play every day, you can choose a different energy, essence, vibration. It’s like today, I would just will feel joy. Everything i’m going to think about, everything, i’m going to speak about, everything…. I’m going to visualize, I’m going to appreciate, and I’m going to be in this vibration of joy. And then, I like to imagine that my soul just becomes that bubble of joy. And then it’s like I’m floating in joy all day long, or freedom or passion or, you know, whatever I choose for the day. So that’s, and the fun thing about that is that, you know, if you feel like a dip during the day, it’s like, oh, turn up the volume again, right? Reconnect back to the soul, like really reconnect and calibrate back to that energy, tune back into it. So that’s a couple processes.

Alison: That’s beautiful, and I have to say, Jean knows this, you’ve been so great to talk to because, i had the conundrum, as we talked earlier of like sick mind, sick body… You’re responsible, you got to stay on it. But I love what you’re saying, because what I’m hearing is you’re allowed to have the human experience. You’re allowed to have all the emotions. Just don’t live there.

Christy Whitman: Yes.

Alison: You know, you can have it all and you can grieve. You can be disappointed. You can be afraid. You can doubt. Just don’t live there. Acknowledge, feel compassion and pick your bag up and move away.

Christy Whitman: Exactly

Alison: And that makes me feel very confident,  that I can do that. You know, and I was thinking when you were just talking, another friend of mine was talking about an argument that they had with a loved one, and they were arguing. And I was thinking, how funny would it be if they said to that loved one, I’m in such joy that you can express yourself this way. Do you know? hahah

Christy Whitman: It Neutralizes everything.

Alison: Like  I think that’s a great thing to just, I’m going to feel X today and just carry it through and see where it takes you.

Christy Whitman: Yes…Trust yourself, Don’t trust me. Try it. You know, do it yourself because…

Jean: that’s right..Try it or deny it.

Alison: Right.

Christy Whitman: Exactly… And you know, I got to say this, this was a really big, big deal for me. I remember during 2020 when everything was in lockdown, we were all locked down and I was bringing food to my mom and dad. My mom and dad have always had a very loud, uh,  very arguing kind of relationship. And so, my mom answers the door and she’s literally yelling at my dad, who’s now in the next room as I’m, like, handing her the food. And I’m thinking to myself, this is going to be short. Yeah. So so I’m like, okay, I’m going to come in and give you the food. So I come in and he’s yelling at her and she’s yelling at him. And normally my old MO would try to be like, okay, go back. You know, like play referee, go back to your neutral corners.

Alison: Right, right.

Christy Whitman: And I just kind of sat down at the table and I was hearing them and I just let myself feel compassion because these are two people that have spent, you know, six decades together at this point. And, you know, this is the way they show love. And so, I was just letting myself feel compassion. And then I was feeling compassion for the younger part of me that couldn’t escape that, right. I was just letting myself feel that compassion for my inner child. And then, as I was doing that, I was remembering her being like, someday I’m not going to have something like that. Someday I’m going to have. And so then my attention then went into appreciation and gratitude for my husband and my relationship. And then I started thinking about my boys and the kind of environment they live in, and what they get to see between my husband and I and as all of this is happening, the two of them stopped arguing. They calm down, I know, came and sat next to me at the table, and I stayed there for almost about three hours. And we had to this day, that was one of the most deep conversations I have had with. And now my dad passed, uh, May 1st this past year. Um, and I went through this whole grieving process, right, as we all do. But it’s like, that allowance of all, I go through it quicker because I allow myself to feel it. But to this day, that conversation and, um, fond memories we brought up and, you know, the level of conversation and connection that will be a moment that forever changed my life because I didn’t have to fight it. I just let, I allowed and I let myself be neutral to what was happening and that neutralizing and then getting into that appreciation, I created that energetic vibration. I didn’t allow myself to get pulled down by it.

Alison: That’s fantastic. Because, you know, there were two Christy’s, the first Christy trying to fix it. Yeah. You know, and arguing. No no, no. Stop. She didn’t mean that. Wait. Sit down, sit down. And then the Christy who was peaceful. Yeah. And just allowing.. I love that. I’m going to do that. Do you want to move in? Come on in.

Christy Whitman: I hope everybody does this because it does, it just changes the world when we do this.

Jean: You know that’s how powerful we are, that’s how powerful our souls are. When we love without any, um, judgment– rather than thinking or saying, she shouldn’t be asking that. That’s too loud. Right. You came in just non-judgmental –  neutral, and it was like letting the love in…

Alison: letting the love heal it.

Christy Whitman: But it’s true. When you’re in that energy of compassion, you’re not in criticism or judgment. It’s devoid of that, you know? And  that’s where even within ourselves, if we can learn self compassion, that’s the biggest opportunity that all of us have. Instead of, you know, I like to say, instead of, you know, taking the beating stick and continuing to beat ourselves up for something we should have done different or didn’t do, or, you know, something we have no control over changing now. We’re still beating ourselves up. Instead of that, put down the beat stick and, you know, pick up the magic wand and start going, all right, what do I what do I want to create? You know, like a fairy godmother. I want to create joy. I want to create love. I want to create connection. You know, it’s the choice. We’re using this mechanism anyway. So we could either use it in our favor or we can use it against us. But either way, we’re using it.

Jean: So. Right.

Alison: Thank you so much. You’re you’re so fantastic.

Jean: You so are.  You deserve all the praise. And you have gotten a lot of praise, but you so deserve it. Christy, your book is so helpful. Wherever you are in your conscious evolution, this book will speak to you. And I could talk to you all afternoon.

Alison: Yeah, I want to go to lunch with you or something.

Christy Whitman: Yeah, let’s do it. I’d love to.

Alison: So thank you so much.

Christy Whitman: Thank you so much for having me. Appreciate you both a great day.

Alison: You too. Bye bye.

Jean: Bye.

Alison: I thought she was fantastic and she answered so many questions and she was so present. And really, it was great, wasn’t it?

 

ALISON: Hi.

JEAN: Hi, there.

ALISON: How are you doing?

JEAN: I’m great.How are you?

ALISON: I’m really wonderful.

JEAN: Do we always start off our podcast this way?

ALISON: Yes. How should we start?

JEAN: Salutations!

ALISON: All right..Salutations, Miss Trebek. Anyway, how are you doing?

JEAN: I’m good.

ALISON: Yeah. You look good.

JEAN: I love seeing you, uh, two, three days in a row.

ALISON: I know. This has been a really busy week… We usually do not.

JEAN:  Right.

ALISON: this has been a very busy week and it is a busy month for us.

JEAN: Which is nice.

ALISON: Very nice.

JEAN: And, uh, today we get to talk with Dawson Church.

ALISON: I know I’m very excited because he’s very interesting to me.

JEAN: Yeah, uh, he’s very interesting to me, and before we get into how brilliant this man is, he has the best laugh.

ALISON: Does he?

JEAN: Yeah.

ALISON: Oh, good.

JEAN: I love his laugh.

ALISON: Oh, good.

JEAN: It makes me laugh.

ALISON: Okay, so that’s what we’re gonna do.

JEAN: It’s just a deep, joyful… Don’t take it all so seriously, laugh.

ALISON: Oh, I love that.

JEAN: Yeah, yeah.

ALISON: He’s had an incredible past and career. Right?

JEAN: Yeah. He’s a scientist, a spiritual visionary, and just an all around brilliant human being.

ALISON: He’s authored so many books, hasn’t he?

JEAN: I think about ten.

ALISON: Wow.

JEAN: I think about Ten books, and, uh, he what else? He’s been the founder of the Veterans Stress Solution, which, goodness knows, we need to help the veterans.

ALISON: He studied PTSD and anxiety disorders and depression. And now he, the book that we just read, Bliss Brain, is all about meditation and creating a flow in yourself to, um, relax your brain and relax yourself. And he can he says it can change your neural pathways.

JEAN: Right.. So I look forward to having him, uh,

ALISON: Change our pathways.

JEAN: Yeah. Right.

ALISON: Yeah… Do it!

JEAN: Do it…Well, this is an honor to have him… He has so much to offer. So enjoy this interview.

ALISON: Here we go.

Dawon Chruch: Alison and Jean. Hi.

ALISON: Hi. How are you? It’s so nice to meet you.

Dawon Chruch: Yeah. Good to connect with you.

JEAN: Can we call you Dawson? or Doctor Church?

Dawon Chruch: Dawson? Yeah.

ALISON: Okay. I’m Alison,

JEAN: I’m Jean.

ALISON: And we’re so taken with your books and your career. It’s very exciting what you’re doing. And my my eldest child studied neuroscience in college, so I was so fascinated by everything you’re discovering with your FMRI. And I just I just am so excited. What what took you down this path? How did you start initially?

Dawon Chruch: Uh, just my own personal issues, because I was anxious and depressed and wanted something to fix myself with. And a lot of people in therapy and personal growth are, first of all, trying to solve their own problems. But then as I began to discover energy therapies and how quickly they work, like what you see, you know, like a Vietnam veteran who’s had flashbacks and nightmares for 45 years, and you do some work with him and suddenly, like in two sessions, they’re gone. Just amazing. So it was then it was like a motivation to get these therapies, lots and lots of people. So that’s my focus now.

ALISON: And then you combined a lot of them right into one.

Dawon Chruch: Yeah. So EcoMeditation is my, I was really um, I had the same problems most people have, which is that your mind wanders, you close your eyes and think about all kinds of other things. It’s hard to sit still. And so I, I realized that all of these techniques are good, but if you layer them all into a single composite technique. So tapping, mindfulness, self-hypnosis, biofeedback, neurofeedback, and you do all of those like one after the other, the the effect is powerful and then you’re able to meditate easily. So that’s why eco meditation has been so popular, because, um, it allows people who just couldn’t meditate before to get into that deep state. And usually the first time they do it. So it’s a lot of fun to watch them again.

JEAN: I did your meditation this morning and I really enjoyed it. And I felt my.. everything calming down and and I thought it was a beautiful meditation. And I thank you for offering it for free on your website. Um, that was that was a treat.

ALISON: Do you do do you do that every day?

Dawon Chruch: Every day I personally meditate for about an hour and a half every day, and I do just because it’s so much fun. It’s like not an effort. And it’s not like, in fact, what it’s hard to do after after a few years or a few decades of doing it, it’s, um, much harder. You know, we find this with, with people we’re training to like, we have a program called the Short Path to Oneness, where we’ll train people over the course of a year to really let go of their old patterns. and our problem, our challenge initially is getting people up there, but the challenge toward the last, like after the first six months, the challenge starts to be bringing them back down again because they become so enchanted with the places they’re going up there, that they get a little bit reluctant to come back and change the diapers and, uh, the laundry and, uh. hahahah

ALISON: So, so, so you’re making it that everyone’s house is a mess?

Dawon Chruch: Absolutely… That’s why the monks and nuns have people to take care of them. That’s right.

ALISON: Yeah. That’s right. Exactly.

JEAN: So, Dawson, I have a background in, uh, Science of Mind.

Dawon Chruch: Oh, yeah.

JEAN: And we are always talking about the power of your thoughts. Change your thinking, change your life. And I feel that so much of what you offer to the world is how powerful our thoughts are. And you also help people to really know how to think. Most people just think while, like crazy, non-supportive unhelpful thoughts. Can you can you talk about the power of our thoughts?

Dawon Chruch: Yeah, I love Science of Mind. In fact, I often speak at Science of Mond churches and our thoughts are powerful. And that whole approach in religion is is really meaningful and impactful to many people. And then what I’m trying to also bring in is science. So I’m trying to talk to the people who wouldn’t go to a church or wouldn’t look for the answers in spirituality, but would look for the answers in hard science or neuroscience. And so there is so much evidence that our, our, our brains, for example, aren’t the seat of consciousness. Our brains are transducers of consciousness from the field of all consciousness into local awareness. And so, um, there’s much more evidence showing that our brains work that way, that we tune into these great information fields. And not only are we able to do it individually, but as we do it collectively, as we have people all over the world doing it, then they’re all coming into sync with each other. And that’s what explains phenomena that are very hard to explain, like distant healing. How do you explain the effects of distant healing? How can a qigong master who’s a thousand miles away from a client affect them? But I’ve had qigong from a qigong master 2000 miles away, and it was like 8 a.m. in the morning when he was going to do his send his qi uh, energy to me when I was sick one day, and um, at 8 a.m.

Dawon Chruch: that morning, it was like a freight train of energy just hit me. It was so powerful. So how do you explain distant healing? There’s a lot of research on distant healing. How do you how do you explain that? And these the phenomena like information fields, like universal information fields, fields of consciousness in which we all participate. If you’re plugged in and I’m plugged in, then we’re plugged into the same field. And that explains things like clairvoyance and telepathy and psychokinesis that are otherwise, again, very hard to explain with conventional science. So there’s a lot of evidence for, for those things and our ability to be creating not just, um, reality inside of our bodies, obviously, but when we when we change our thoughts, then our hormones, our neurotransmitters change and they can change a lot. Like there’s a study that came out, uh, about 4 or 5 days ago and the researchers used AI to crunch unimaginably huge amounts of data, and they looked at the effect of one of the key components in in, in spirituality, which is emotion regulation. And monks and nuns and people who are meditators aren’t at the mercy of their emotions if they have a, you know, passing flash of anger or a moment of resentment or irritation, they don’t scream and yell.

Dawon Chruch: Uh, people who are poor at emotional regulation do scream and yell, but people who are good at it don’t. And so meditators tend to be really good at that. And they found that that ability to regulate your emotions, which is so key to self-transcendence and spirituality, was producing absolutely fundamental changes in the gene and gene expression in the cells of those people, and that these changes were the ones that were typical of long health span. In other words, they’re going to live long lives and those lives are going to be healthy. And so not obviously everyone who, um, has emotional regulation will live a long life. But the trend was extremely powerful for these genes to be for the gene expression to match the profile of a long health span. So it’s just wonderful to know that we’re literally shifting our bodies dramatically as we, um, engage in these practices and as we change our minds, as we learn techniques like effective meditation, as we learn to release our our negativity, as we shift our minds, we’re just, for example, where we’re reducing our cortisol. In one study I did, we saw a 36% drop in baseline cortisol in a week and doing energy therapy. So our minds do create molecules and create molecules and shift our reality that way.

ALISON: Is meditation the only way to do it or is there a way to stop negative thinking or fear based thoughts without meditating? Or does it just not create new neural pathways?

Dawon Chruch: There are several ways that are useful for stopping negative thoughts. One is to stop them at the source. And that’s why I recommend morning meditation. Because when you wake up in the morning, first thing we do is orient to the those great non-local fields of consciousness. We’re plugging into the the all it is, as the Buddhists call it, first thing in the morning. Then that’s going to predispose us to a good day. So we know our breathing patterns are going to change. Our cortisol goes down, our cell repair hormones go up, our neurotransmitters change. All these beautiful things happen in our bodies at the start of the day. And so we then are setting ourselves up for good day ahead. If we then use a simple energy routine like acupressure,  I teach EFT tapping, where you just tap on acupuncture points that then when you’re stressed during the day, will help return you to that baseline and stop negative thinking. So those are two practices-  meditation sets you up for the good day, EFT tapping for when you’re having a negative thought or an overwhelming emotion during the day, will return you to baseline fairly quickly and then you know if it’s too big, i mean, if people have been traumatized, for example, if they have ongoing psychological trauma or if they’ve been triggered, then they they may need help. We train practitioners. We train people who are they’re called clinical EFT practitioners. And they’re available and they’re they are able to handle those those big T traumas, major life events. And so we recommend people have a practitioner relationship as well, so that if your self-help methods aren’t enough, then you can bring in this expert help to move you through those issues.

JEAN: That’s amazing. Can you talk a little bit more about EFT? What does it mean? And what’s the science behind tapping.

Dawon Chruch: The science behind tapping is very simple. And when we get emotionally triggered it activates our emotional brain. So we have this big chunk of tissue in the center of our brain the limbic system, the thalamus, the hippocampus, the amygdala, other structures. And that’s triggered when we’re emotional. So if I get upset, if I get angry, resentful, blame, shame, guilt, all of those negative emotions are activating that part of the brain. And EFT is applying pressure to acupuncture points. And you simply tap on a series of 13 points and you actually remember the bad stuff. So we are not trying to suppress or move away from or avoid thinking about the bad stuff– I was working with somebody this morning actually, was a clinical psychologist, who was still having trouble with a lot of his own emotions. And, um, as I had him tap, he was saying, okay, now I’m feeling this emotion, now I’m letting it go. And I said, no, don’t let it go. Hold on to it. Let’s take a deep dive. Really feel that emotion because you, Mr. Smart, PhD, clinical psychologist, are really good at taling to yourself out of your emotions, and we’re instead just going to go back to when you were two and wailed and screamed and yelled and let your needs be known and felt your emotions. So I hadn’t really feel his emotions but tap while he was doing it. So now he’s tapping while he’s feeling the emotions. Now that limbic system, that emotional brain, gets all lit up in the center of the brain by those negative emotions. And now the brain gets a second signal coming in from the body, which is the soothing signal of tapping on acupuncture points, which calms people down. So when we had them hooked up to an EEG, we’ll see them thinking about that car crash, divorce, the economy, uh, combat whatever it is that most triggers them emotionally. And we’ll see on the EEG when they think about that bad thing, that chunk of tissue gets highly aroused in the middle of their brains when they start tapping. It’s actually almost miraculous to watch this on an EEG. That emotional midbrain just calms down, and then ten minutes later, the person’s talking to you about that horrendous event and they’re totally calm. And I’ve done this now  with thousands of veterans through our Veterans Stress Project. We’ve done it with people. And right now we have a project going on in Ukraine.

Dawon Chruch: We’re working with therapists in Ukraine, we’re training them. They’re doing it with people- like the one guy that, um, was in one of our calls recently in Ukraine. He was supposed to be on a call with us, and then he didn’t show up for the call. And we’re like, you know, why is he not not there for the zoom call was because the house next to him had been hit by it by a Russian missile, and several people had been killed or wounded there. And so, um, these Ukrainians are just subject to constant uncertainty in their lives and the threat of death and incredibly stressful. And they get this technique of tapping. And so they can, we find that even in extreme examples, we’ve had volunteers work with victims of the Rwandan genocide, of the Haiti earthquake, of, uh, of school shootings and various other, other places. We have volunteers in Israel. We have volunteers in Palestine working with people there. And we find that even in these, again, horrendous conditions, that it’s able to dramatically shift people’s levels of anxiety, depression and, and fear. And you just see that that emotional brain calms down. So it’s just tapping on these 13 points while you’re thinking about the bad stuff and the, the the internal mechanism is it’s calming that emotional brain.

ALISON: So you know, it’s funny because you think it might be counterintuitive that if you’re saying a bad memory or something and you’re and you’re hitting something, you know, my mind says that would reinforce it. But where I am hitting allows me… Tells my brain a different signal and says to relax. Is that right? That’s what I’m hearing, right?

Dawon Chruch: That’s right. The brain’s getting two signals. One signal is the memory of the event, and the second signal is the tapping. And so, it’s now getting one signal saying go to fight or flight. I’m thinking about the thinking about the bomb blast in Iraq. I’m thinking about the, uh, the home invasion. I’m thinking about being mugged in Central Park. I’m thinking about, uh, losing my home when my mortgage was underwater in 2008. So this one signal is remembering this bad thing, and it’s telling the emotional brain to go into fight or flight. Then in comes the second signal via the body saying, calm down. You’re being soothed over here by this rubbing or tapping on these acupuncture points. And when the body then pairs that soothing signal with the disturbing memory, it realizes that the memory is not a current threat to your survival, and it breaks the connection between the memory and going into stress mode. And when you break that, that association one time, it’s really interesting to watch this happen with people. So you’ll, you’ll you’ll work with them. You’ll you’ll do tapping with them. Talk to them again a year later and say, how do you feel about that event? And they’ll say, well, I might think about the event sometimes, but um, the emotional impact is, is is now low. All the emotional energy it used to hold is gone.

ALISON: May I ask just one more question on that? Uh, let’s say you don’t have a memory. But you have a fear, a phobia, a fear like a fear of spiders or a fear of flying or anything that isn’t based in a memory. Does this process still work?

Dawon Chruch: Actually, phobias are one of the easiest things to treat with EFT, and we have several randomized controlled trials and it rarely takes more than one session. Very, very occasionally it’ll take more than one session. But you know, fear of public speaking, fear of small animals like rats, mice, spiders and so on. Fear of flying. I once worked with a, i once walked into a big university to talk to the head of psychiatry there, and, i thought we were going to have a chat about research and other interests, and but she just summoned the colleague into the office and said, my colleague over here is a fear of flying. Work with her right now. I was like, okay, so it was affecting this other professor’s career because she couldn’t fly to scientific conferences and present her papers. And this is like maybe 2005. So I was before there was video conferencing. And so it was really impacting this researcher’s career not to be able to travel. And so, um, I just worked with her systematically. We, we tapped on all the phases of flight, like I got a score from her and said, well, how nervous are you? Zero through ten when you think about making, and back in those days, we made phone calls to the airlines to book our our flights, no online reservations. So she was pretty, pretty okay with, uh, with, with making the reservation just a 2 or 3. But then when she point of the flight, when she was in her seat and clipping the seat belt together, that meant I was trapped. Right? And that sound of the seat belt took her up to a ten. So I just kept with her on on that and a few other associated events around flying. And, um, she went right down to a zero on all of them and said, I feel just great now. So her colleague then said, this head of psychiatry said, well, tell you what, go back to your office, phone the airlines and make a reservation and she did. She wet out there, made a reservation, came back, said, I’m totally fine. So, um, it’s it’s not usually a long process to treat a phobia.

ALISON: Wow, You changed her life right there. That’s amazing.

Dawon Chruch: Where it’s really amazing is with people who are victims of abuse, you know, serious abuse, complex PTSD, like hardly anything but will budge. Complex PTSD when you’ve been repeatedly in a in an unsafe situation and abused or neglected and in EFT we have very specialized techniques. Now again, this is not self-help. This is like a trained clinical EFT practitioner who’s been through a long training program and passed lots of exams and lots of supervised training, but but we can work with people who have chronic, complex PTSD and see them just release all of that early imprinting. So it’s a wonderful we have this tool to do this now.

ALISON: Yeah.

Dawon Chruch: It is wonderful. And it’s wonderful that you are sharing this and getting the word out there. Um, Dawson, I want to talk a teeny bit about your new book, Bliss Brain, for a moment, and you share that,as we cultivate peak states, our brains rapidly rewire themselves for happiness. Can you talk? What are peak states and how do we achieve peak states?

Dawon Chruch: Yeah. Peak states are in secular terms, our flow in flow states, people lose themselves in the task and are in this really happy space as they’re doing whatever activity they’re doing. And then in meditation, we reach these extraordinary states. In the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, he calls them samadhi, and we reach these layers of samadhi. The lowest level is he calls n—- samadhi. And you do that in certain ways. And, um, then it goes all the way up to an ob– samadhi in the, the nine phases of samadhi. And Patanjali and a lot of the eastern writers talk about this. A lot of the Western mystics talk about Hildegard of Bingen, talked about this, the sense that the the like, the fire of God, poured through her body, into her head, over her face, out through her heart. And Rumi, I mean, Rumi, this mystic who just wrote this exquisite poetry about these ecstatic states. And so these mistakes are in that state. And now that we have the neuroscience to examine what’s going on with them, obviously we can’t put Hildegard of Bingen, a 15th century mystic, into an MRI, but we can stick a modern day Tibetan monk or a Franciscan nun into an MRI. And what we see in terms of their brain function is extraordinary. This one, um, this one particular much studied monk I talk about in Bliss Brain, and the researchers hook him up to EEGs and they haven’t then move into states of elevated compassion. He’s feeling global compassion. He’s one with you all. That is his levels of the brainwaves of happiness, gratitude and compassion. His brainwaves go up 700%. Wow, 700% sevenfold. And what we’re now doing is we’re reverse engineering a lot of this. Like, I have a course called The Short Path to Oneness based on both neuroscience and ancient practices.

Dawon Chruch: And we’re training people to do that. And it’s not taking us 10,000 hours. It’s taking us. I mean, a serious training does take about a year to start to reach these elevated states, but we find that even in a month, the first 30 days, we can get people into extraordinary inner states. Now, just getting there one time or a few times or for a few weeks is nice, but you want to learn to sustain it. So we want to teach people to reach the goal, whatever they want to. And then the challenge, as I mentioned earlier, becomes bringing them back down again. So our initial challenge in the first like month of the short path and oneness, we get them up there. The after about six months or a year, we’re working very hard in the opposite direction. We need them to integrate and bring that down, but we can and do. And so what we find is that after they’ve learned to ground and integrate these states into the daily lives, then they’re doing the laundry. They’re taking care of their kids, they’re taking care of their elderly parents. They they are the elderly parents. They are doing everyday lives. And again, when we hook them up to the EEG, we find they’re in these ecstatic states in everyday reality. So, um, like, I pretty much spend my day that way. I do meditation in the morning. That’s really intense for me. I mean, I just shake with energy. It’s so, so powerful. But a lot of my day is just spent, even in just regular work. I’m just feeling this just glow of radiant love and light all around me, even though I’m working on a spreadsheet. So it’s totally wonderful to live your life that way.

ALISON: When you get, do you get upset by things? Do you argue with people? Do you, does that happen to you?

JEAN: Do You honk your horn in traffic?

ALISON: Exactly. Does this happen to you?

Dawon Chruch: This is the finger I give people in Hawaii— hahahaha

JEAN: I can’t see people watching you and you flipping someone off… And they notice, that was Dawson Church!

Dawon Chruch: Yeah. We find that, um, again, me and the people we trained to get into these states and go through these courses, and we have some very simple courses that take you, like in a week and others that take a month. And this one, the short path to oneness takes a year. And so we find that people’s level of all of those negative emotions goes way, way down. And paradoxically, they are still bothered by them when they experience them because there’s not much else going on in their emotions. So they’re very calm, so they can be quite bothered when there are things that disturb them. But like I talked to one guy who’s been doing this now for like a decade and he said, yeah, you know, a few things every, every, every year a few things will disturb me. But I return to my baseline really fast. And so, um, they become imperturbable. Also, the part of the brain that coordinates emotional regulation has grown at that point to be enormous. And, um, it’s like in one study I talk about in my books, the this, this, this part of the brain is called the dentate gyrus. And it’s a little finger. But besides my little, little finger, it’s a little sliver of, of, um, of brain tissue at the base of the limbic system. And it can grow by 10% in meditators doing that kind of meditation 10% a month. Wow. So it, you know, by in three months it’s grown 30%. Um, in in six months has grown 60%.

Dawon Chruch: So they have a lot of tissue now. It doesn’t grow forever. I mean, it grows to a certain size. Then you have all the emotional regulation you need. But it’s not software, it’s hardware. It’s not just practice or habit. Now you have this physical hardware, neurological wiring inside your head for regulating negative emotions. So, um, that’s really when you start to reach the tipping point is when it’s not a mood regulation, it’s neurological wiring inside your head. And then there’s very little that can disturb you once you reach that kind of brain of equanimity. And like, like the Dalai Lama, I mean, he’s he’s just pretty much in a positive mood. Most of the time. And sometimes it’s dealing with terrible things like, you know, killings of of Tibetan monks by Chinese troops and, um, all kinds of setbacks since 1950, when he fled the country, he’s had to deal with being dispossessed and, um, all kinds of challenges. And yet he has this amazing ability and this, this resilience, because those emotional structures are so developed in him. So you want to develop them, and then it also makes you resilient. So you now have the structure, the hardware of resilience in your brain. So when you’re faced with the loss the recession, the divorce, the, um, unexpected death of a family member, you have this fundamental bedrock of this wiring in your head that’s going to serve you when you need that resilience.

ALISON: Why do you think that’s fantastic? Why do you think? Or in your book, you were saying that the reason we have fear and stress is because it protected us, you know, and that makes sense. Um, but do you think it’s worse now with social media and all of that, or is that a different kind of stress or, uh, so many of my, our friends, they just feel very stressed so often. And I’m wondering, do you see, what do you think is going on?

Dawon Chruch: Well, I think that there are a lot of messages that hit us if we watch the news, if we are exposed to social media. And so there are a lot of things that claim our attention and that aren’t very helpful to our peace of mind. And I think it’s worth I mean, it’s certainly worth knowing what’s going on in the world, but, you know, you need to spend maybe five, ten minutes a day doing that. You definitely don’t want to be doomscrolling and looking, you know, every.

ALISON: Yeah.

Dawon Chruch: Miserable message. And you want to be really what’s called. And again this term comes from immunology,  inoculating yourself. And there’s research showing that meditators. People who, using evidence based meditation methods, are inoculating themselves against bad news. And so if you have equanimity, sure, you go and read about climate change. I mean, just for example, one study that just came out showed that, um, every single month of last year was the hottest month of that month on record globally ever. So it wasn’t just an unusually warm year last year, every single month, all 12 months were the hottest months on record for that month ever since we began tracking temperature in the 1800s. And so, um, you know, I mean, is that is that a problem? You bet it is. Uh, you know, racial inequality, um, uh, sexual freedom, um, uh, income inequality, uh, war, poverty, the all these things are, um, are issues we need to be aware of. But does your getting stressed about them help at all? Not a bit. Not even one tiny little bit. In fact, the more stressed you are, the least likely you’re able to be effective. So you want to be effective. And that means staying calm. What we see in the research on monks is that, um, when they hear or are exposed to tragic news or human  tragedy, they have the same kind of emotional and empathetic response everyone does, actually more so,  their brain, uh, emotional response spikes higher than the average person when they, they are exposed to human tragedy.

Dawon Chruch: One of the ways that this is tested is they’re in a lab. They hooked up to an EEG, we’re reading their brainwaves, and then in a distant room somewhere else in the building, the researchers play a recording of a child screaming in pain. Now the monk doesn’t know there isn’t a real child, and the monk doesn’t know that, that he or she is being set up for this. But what we see is that that empathetic response, that that response to the the child screaming in pain spikes quicker than the average person, but that part of the brain spikes in activity, and immediately brain activity shifts into the part of the brain that handles practical details, tasks. And the monk is going to how can I help? How can I make a difference? So they have this emotional response. They are not Mr. Spock being completely devoid of emotion. There’s a funny episode of Star Trek where Star Trek in which Mr. Spock says, abandoned emotion, acquire logic. hahah

Dawon Chruch: That’s not emotion control, that’s emotion suppression. And and you know, it’s dissociation. You don’t want to do that. So these monks and nuns feel but they feel, and then they switch right away to how can I help? What can I do? So that’s the way it works in the brain.

ALISON: Yeah.

JEAN: I also heard you say that meditation helps people have more positive synchronicities in life. And I thought that was pretty, pretty amazing. And I’m and I can attest to that. I know that when I do my meditation in the morning, the day just seems to kind of click. Yeah, it doesn’t mean I’m not going to have challenges, but it just kind of.. There’s a flow to my day that it’s not so jagged,

ALISON: And you’re driving with your eyes open.

JEAN: Right, And I love that you gave synchronicity a good, um, you know, that was a big chapter. And that was that was wonderful.

Dawon Chruch: Initially, I thought that chapter in mind matter would be a little tiny short chapter. And I just talked about Carl Jung, and he believed in synchronicity. And, uh, then I’d go through it very quickly, and I was amazed as I got into the science of synchronicity and became the longest chapter in the book, because there’s so much science that shows that synchronicity is real, in all kinds of dimensions. And so, uh, the one giant study published in 2018 showed that meditators have more synchronicity, more clairvoyance, more clairaudience, more all of those ESP kinds of experiences in their lives than non-meditators. And again, their lives just seem to flow a little easier. It’s not that their lives are perfect. I mean, none of our lives is perfect, but um, and like people taking our courses say, you know, the days I didn’t meditate were just rockier. They just didn’t flow as, as, as as easily. What we find, too, is that word flow is comes up over and over and over again. Flow, uh, is the the secular counterpart to meditation. As you meditate in the morning, you are predisposing yourself to have a day spent in that creative state of flow.

Dawon Chruch: And so you’re in flow, much a much bigger part of the day when you meditate in the morning and your data seems to flow much more easily, you have challenges, you have obstacles still, and they seem easier and your creativity, in one study, we found that people’s creativity doubled after meditation in these flow states. I mean a doubling of creativity. Another study found that, uh, the ability of people to solve complicated problems, really hard problems went up by about 500% after they entered a flow state. So in flow, you look at a problem, i mean, I had a big problem this week in my work and, um, when I was first thinking about it and reflecting on it, I was I was really like, whoa, this is a massive problem. I mean, I couldn’t imagine how we would solve it. But I meditated, finished my meditation, and opened my eyes and looked around me and realized, oh, there’s this really easy solution I just didn’t see when I was all stressed.

ALISON: Wow.

ALISON: That’s beautiful.

Dawon Chruch: Yeah.

ALISON: Do you, do you think I know some people that have said, well, I don’t want to get rid of my anxiety because it’s a motivator, like, you know, the people that wait till the day before the homework is due to do the paper or that what would you what would you say to that? Because I know a lot of people that are working and they wait till the very last minute. What would you say to them?

Dawon Chruch: You may want to just conduct a little experiment to see how you feel doing it under stress, and how you feel doing it, not under stress. Now, one thing you can do is, there’s something going on there subconsciously that is, um, supporting that pattern. And so you can delve into that and do some EFT tapping and release whatever energy pattern there is there. Again, approach it from an energy perspective. I know for me, for example, I occasionally have big difficult tasks to do and the temptation is to do the small, easy ones first. Uh, but then you want,  you need to tackle the, the big hard ones. And so what I do when I feel like resistance coming up to, uh, doing the big hard one first, I do some tapping. I think about the task, I do some tapping, like I to write a whole bunch of, um, of copy for Facebook and Google. And it was apparently it was like this process normally would take about a, a day to write this, this particular set of copy for one our programs. And, um, I had a little copy there, and I just decided to tap and release all of the, um, energy I had around. Uh, this is a huge, big task. How will I do it? I’m running behind another deadlines, blah blah blah, blah, blah. So I did some tapping, I released, and I got into flow and I thought, I’ll just start the project. So I started it and two hours later in flow, I finished it. It was wonderful. Just all literally flowed. And so you, you notice your tendency is like being anxious or, or stressing yourself out. And after a while, you don’t want to feel that stress. You don’t feel bad anymore. And what’s happening to the brain in my book,  I talk about the seven neurotransmitters of both flow and meditation, and one of them is serotonin and serotonin is your feel good neurotransmitter.

Dawon Chruch: Dopamine is your go get them neurotransmitter, a motivational transmitter neurotransmitter. Go get this goal done and you get a reward if you have a rush of dopamine. Serotonin is, I got it done, i feel good now. And both of these really pleasurable neurochemicals rise in your brain once you got into the habit of generating these neurochemicals. So you have oxytocin. You have anandamide, you have beta endorphin, you have serotonin, you have dopamine. You start to feel habituated to feeling good. So I’m already used to feeling good. I don’t want to feel bad by stressing myself out. So the more you feel good, the more you want to feel good and see your new normal then becomes, you know, I want to feel good. And if I’m doing stuff to myself, let’s make me feel bad. I’m going to shift myself. I’m going to tap, I’m going to meditate. I’m going to walk in nature… In my book, Mind to Matter, i have like 30 things you can do. Go give someone a hug. Give yourself a hug. This is called the butterfly hug. It’s used in various kinds of energy therapies, and you just rub your own upper arms. This way generates delta and gamma waves in your brain. You also tap on either side like this. Just with kids a lot. A lot of tapping in schools. And this is just one of the things we teach kids to do is give themselves a butterfly hug. Just that alone will shift your brain function. So if you used to make yourself feel bad to motivate yourself, try feeling good instead.

ALISON: I love that.

JEAN: I love that.. That’s the new norm, you know? And the brain is is it’s such a muscle. Like, you know, if you don’t, if you just let it, if you don’t work on it, it’s just going to kind of be

ALISON: saggy

JEAN:  yeah, saggy…exactly. Yeah. That’s right. No more saggy brains, you know, but, uh, I, I love that. And, Dawson, do you have any thoughts about sound healing? Um, have you researched anything around that? I, I studied with a man, Tom Kenyon, about the power of sound healing.. Any thoughts on sound healing or listening to music? Do you think that good?

Dawon Chruch: yes, sound is vibration, like, um, thought is a  vibration.  various kinds of healing has been studied and they find that there like for example, there are energies that emanate from the hands of healers. Your own voice is a wonderful instrument for for healing. So humming, for example, is going to lower your blood pressure is going to engage your parasympathetic nervous system relaxation response. And so, um, so various kinds of, of sounds are really useful. Um, and I haven’t looked into the research behind sound healing very much. I know there are a few studies of it, but, um, use use vibration think, you know, we we tend to when we’re looking for healing, we have a problem. We have a diagnosis of disease. We tend to go very, very quickly to an external agent. And that external agent might be a drug. It might be a herb, it might be a psychedelic. And all of those things mean drugs are fine sometimes. And and herbs are great in their place. And psychedelics are sometimes useful. But the very first thing we should be asking ourselves is not what external agent should I stick in my body to feel better? The first question to ask yourself is how can I shift my energy myself? How can I change my vibration to love myself more, to care for myself, to nurture my cells, to heal my body? That’s the very, very, very first question to ask yourself and shift your energy.

Dawon Chruch: And then a lot of your physical stuff is just going to go away. Your physical problems will just many of them will just vanish when you are approaching it as an energy question, not as a material question. Now that has its limitations. Like for example, um, I had high blood pressure. I’ve had it all my adult life. And, uh, my doctor had put me on medication for high blood pressure, and I said, no, I’m, I’m going to lick this naturally. So I used I used tapping, I used herbs, I used, uh, supplements like the  beets, for example, lower your blood pressure. I did all the natural things, and I, you know, I lowered it maybe ten points or so, but it was still over, over the, the norm. So I actually had to go to the doctor after a few years and said, okay, I’ll take the medication. And I still take it. So, you know, uh, it’s not like we’re against allopathic medicine.

Dawon Chruch: It’s wonderful in its place. But to if you have an emotional problem, if you have stress that’s making your blood pressure high, going and getting a medication is then simply going to mask your symptoms. And it’s like putting, you know, the red light saying, check engine light is on on your dashboard and you just get a piece of tape and tape over it so you don’t see it anymore. So that’s so much of of modern medicine is like that. And people are unfairly asking their doctors to treat things that are emotional and spiritual. And so we have to look at energy first, look at our emotions. How are our emotions engaged? How what is our energy like? If I have this conflict of the stress, what is my energy in that situation? Can I change my energy if someone’s being mean to me or nasty, maybe they really are being abusive, but what is my energy? Uh, Jesus said, do good to them that hate you. In the Yoga Sutras in the eastern tradition, Patanjali says, be really nice to people who are really nice to you. And when people are not nice to you at all, be really nice. Be extra nice to them.

JEAN: Yeah, right. Yeah.

ALISON: That’s right. And that shifts the energy.

Dawon Chruch: Shifts the energy. What does it do for them? Who cares? What does it do for you? Reduces your stress. You’re giving yourself a gift.

ALISON: I find you very calming and very hopeful. And it makes me feel like sometimes I have felt, um, stuck in my head. And I just feel like after this conversation, very, very hopeful. So for people like me, um, I read Bliss Brain, and um, Mind over Matter. Do you do you think my next step would be going to your website and seeing what sort of courses would be useful?

Dawon Chruch: Yeah, we have a lot of courses that are targeted, like we have a relationship skills course, for example, that trains people to use tapping, meditation, active listening, nonviolent communication in their relationship. So it’s a relationship issue. We really recommend that. In fact, we recommend that that everyone take a relationship course like that. Because if you have skills, about 90% of the friction in your relationship vanishes. Even if your partner or your kid or your parent or whoever it is is doing nothing, they don’t have to change at all. If you shift your energy, then the whole relationship changes because we, our families are constellations and they are are our energy matrixes. And one person changes and the whole matrix changes. So we have we have courses for relationship. We have a fibromyalgia course. We have courses for weight loss. Uh, I don’t know how many clinical trials there are probably at this point, over 20, showing that people who use EFT tapping and and self-calming techniques for weight loss, like they’ll crave those potato chips, they’ll crave that ice cream, whatever it might be that their fatal food is, and you start training them to tap while they use it. We did one study with MRIs, and we found that people, when they’re exposed to images of those foods in the MRI, their emotional brain lights up.

Dawon Chruch: The the part of the brain that has to do with food does not light up. The part of the brain has to do with emotion lights up. So those foods are emotional. And when we stick them back in, the MRI is after tapping with them for a while. It doesn’t. So they’re they, they they not only do they lose weight, we now track them up to two years afterwards and their weight keeps dropping because they’ve now built this into their their behavior. So we have weight loss courses, trauma courses, uh, and anxiety course and insomnia course. So there are all kinds of resources like that on our website and are are certified practitioners. They’re highly trained. They’re if they’re up there on the website, they’re good because they have to go through a lot, a lot of training to get to be there. And if they’re there, they’re they’re they’re they’re able to help with things like like trauma, like like like prenatal trauma, early life trauma. And so there are so many resources available and we just don’t have to keep on suffering the way we used to. Like I, friends say to me recently , my friend said to me, Dawson, we are tapping. We have meditation, we can fix ourselves. My parents, they just suffered, and you don’t have to suffer the way our parents did. We have all of these these wonderful techniques. Eft now is being used by something like 40 million people worldwide in developed countries, Western Europe, places we can track statistics. About 1 in 5 people is now meditating. That’s up from 1 in 100. In 1980. So we’ve had this explosion in meditation, in stress reduction courses. And this is producing a radical global mind shift as well. It may not be obvious on the news, but, uh, human society is changing in a big way, led by shifts in consciousness. And we’ll we’ll live in a very different world than 5 or 10 years. And we live in now, just as a result of human beings becoming more compassionate, becoming more aware and looking out for that, uh, that all that is, that is the foundation of consciousness.

ALISON: Thank you so much.

JEAN: You you are giving us so much… Your website is called, Up Life.

Dawon Chruch: The best way for people to get access to that, is through a website called Dawson(my name),  Dawsongift.com

Dawon Chruch: Because then you’ll get a free download of the tapping manual of the meditation. And then that’s where all the practitioner listings are. All the courses are available from that. So that’s Dawsongift.Com is the best way for everything that I mentioned here.

ALISON: Great, great. Thank you so much. Can we talk to you again when you write your next book?

Dawon Chruch: Oh please do. It’ll be fine.

ALISON: I will love that.

ALISON: You’re really fantastic.

JEAN: Wonderful, brilliant man and spirit. So thank you for everything.

Dawon Chruch: It’s a joy to share. Absolute joy to do this.

ALISON: So thank you…Continue to have a great day.

Dawon Chruch: Thank you,

JEAN: Thank you.

ALISON: Bye bye.

ALISON: Oh my gosh, he’s amazing, right?

JEAN: He is. I call him Awesome Dawson.

ALISON: He needs a bumper sticker that says that.

JEAN: Yes,

ALISON: He is so… I felt like there are so many things that he was saying that I could definitely use help with, and things that I could definitely see myself benefiting from. His techniques and his books are fantastic because he really explains the brain, and he really explains how things like take a shortcut when you don’t want them to, when you want them. And I’m, I’m definitely going to check out his website more thoroughly and see how I can help myself.

JEAN: I yeah, why not? And talk about true self empowerment– that we can look within ourselves to heal, um, these thoughts and or what’s another word than heal, but release these thoughts and let the new norm be happiness. Not always be heavy hearted or slightly depressed and anxious. You know, it is a training.. Training, consistency, repetition. So, um, there’s that phrase that says your thinking is the beginning and end of suffering.. You know, it all starts with with your thoughts. Right? And most of us were not taught how to think beautifully and how to deal with our emotions and feelings.  So, um, and he mentioned that.

ALISON: Yea, And I liked his.. He was so positive and light, like you were saying earlier. His laugh. Yeah. You know, he just took it. Um, he really feels I feel his passion and I, I feel really these interviews… I’m just so amazed by all the human beings that are out there. And I love that he he resonated with what Sonia said, which is the world is a place that’s changing and consciousness and a higher consciousness. And, you know, we’re on an important journey here with all this, you know?

JEAN: Yeah, we are. And I’m so glad I’m in this journey on this journey with you, Allison.

Dawon Chruch: Me too. Jeannie, we hope you enjoy this and really check out his website. He said it was Dawsongift.

JEAN: Okay, great. And just one last thing. He also has a podcast called High Energy Health. And wow, he has some beautiful guests. So talk about sharing goodness in the world.

ALISON: So that’s right.

JEAN: Thank you Dawson.

ALISON: And right and let’s just start tapping. Let’s all just do it. That’s Jean tap dancing. Bye.

JEAN: Bye.

JEAN: Are we on?

Alison : We are on. I did it again.

JEAN: You’re just so great at this, Alison.

Alison : So professional.

JEAN: Yeah. And you’re doing this early in the morning for us.

Alison : We never talk early in the morning unless one of our guests is far away. Which, which Sonya is.

JEAN: Yeah. So today we’re interviewing Sonia Choquette, and she’s coming to us from England..

Alison : I think that’s very exciting. She, um, she’s been talking and explaining and working with intuition for so many years, right?

JEAN: Yeah. I think I read over 40 years or close to 40 years. And she’s written, I believe, about 28 international best selling books on the power of intuition and your soul. And, uh, I think her time right now is, is really high for her because people are very interested in more of the metaphysical nature of life.

Alison : That’s exactly right. And her books are so easy to understand. Yeah. And she feels like she’s talking to you. So this is really exciting.

JEAN: Yeah, it’s it truly is. And all the examples she gives in the book.  So, um, I’m so happy to be interviewing her. This was a delight to see her say, ” yes” and she would be on our show.

Alison : So here we go.

Alison : Hello,

JEAN: Hello. Good morning.. Or I should say good afternoon, or good evening?

Sonia: Hello, It’s almost 7 p.m..

JEAN: Wow! Sonia is so… Thank you so much for being on our podcast. My name is Jean.

Alison : I’m Alison.

Sonia: Nice to meet you both.

Alison : I love all everything you’ve done. And I’ve been inundated reading your books and trying to follow my gut feelings.

Sonia: I hope that you’re having fun with this. It’s such a, it usually feels so empowering when you start doing that.

Alison : It’s it’s very exciting. You’ve been doing this a very long time. And Jean and I were just saying 30, 25 years ago, this was not mainstream, was it?

Sonia: Oh, absolutely. I was out in the field hiding in the— ducking, ducking the potshots being thrown at me. But I’ve been at this for 50 years publicly. So I’m excited to see that the world is evolving and I have a theory about it.

Alison : I would love to hear that.

Sonia: Well, you know, we can afford to be checked out when everything is pretty predictable and doesn’t demand our attention. But since Covid and post-Covid, all hell’s broken loose. You know, nothing’s predictable. So it is requiring everybody to not only check back in with their outer senses, but recognize that we need more than that. So it’s spontaneously creating a real availability to our inner senses. And so the time is now. I’ve just been patient.

Alison : That’s right. You’ve stuck to it. Yeah.

JEAN: You’ve been a woman ahead of your time. And I was sharing with Allison that I was introduced to your books, one of your books, about 30 years ago. So when you said, “yes” to being on our podcast, I was like, oh, she’s amazing. And I’m so inspired by all the wonderful books and information you’ve been sharing with people around the world. So, um, Sonia, I was curious if you could share with our listeners a little bit about your background, what got you so interested in the power of intuition?

Sonia: I come from a matriarchal family where, um, my mother was. A child bride. Prisoner of war. During World War Two, she lost her family. She lost her hearing. She married my father illegally, really at 15, and came to America. And so she was basically a child, and she very much faced the consequences that that the possibility of of real horrific death many times. But what kept her from it was her inner guidance.. It kept saving her life. So I grew up with a mother who would, first of all, she was deaf. And she said that was her biggest blessing because she didn’t have to listen to the crazy confusion and nonsense of the world. But she said,  we have an inner voice and that’s the one that kept her alive. And she said, that’s the one that we need to listen to. So I grew up in a context, in a family where our inner voice was the first sense, it was the one to listen to, and she empowered us at seven years old and we were six siblings that she empowered. She wasn’t entrenched in the world, the external world. She didn’t have to win approval of others. She was an artist. She was in her studio. She was in her home. She didn’t really care what other people thought. It wasn’t part of her value system, and she taught us not to either.

Sonia: It’s like, you know, who cares if it’s going to save your life, to trust your vibes, that you’re going to do! So I don’t have an experience of not trusting my vibes or not being connected, but what I do have is an observation. That people who are disconnected from their inner guidance are have the worst disability of all. They’re just at the mercy of the world, pulling them this way and that and losing their way. So I started very young, teaching people. First. I started doing readings and it was really a game. I was one of seven kids I just wanted to be. The game of our family was trust your vibes. And my game was I’ll be the best!  so by the time I was 12 or 13, I was already attracting the attention of neighbors and eventually the police and different things. But I was not enjoying just serving as other people’s inner guidance. I, I was scared for people. I wanted to say, you need this. So my first class, I was 15 years old when I taught my first class and like, wait a minute, there’s one better than coming to me. Turn your own light on and that was just our way. That was my way. And I don’t have an experience of any other way.

Alison : Mhm. That’s exciting. That’s an exciting in a way. Right?

Sonia: It was exciting. But I also, what was exciting for me is I could turn that light on in people.

JEAN: Right, right.

Sonia: That was my excitement is to have someone who’s going completely living for approval and feeling lost and giving their power away and being confused, to I know who I am, and I know what is good for me. I know what is not good for me and I don’t need anyone’s approval. I’m going to follow my inner guidance and I’m going to be true to myself. And that was my… and that has always been my reward.

Alison : Yeah, there’s a real peace to being authentic once you finally get it.

Sonia: You’re right. You’re so right. Because we are energetic beings. So if you’re authentic, it affects those around you and they entrain into that frequency. It gives everybody permission and invitation and permission to resonate at that level. And so I think it’s the only way for our planet to have a future. And that’s why I’m so excited. It’s finally mainstream.

Alison : That’s exactly right. I was I’m sure you get this question 100 times a day. Can you explain to us and me the difference between intuition, wishful thinking and worry?

Sonia: I can. It’s a language thing to some degree, because when we say intuition, we wuse the language of follow your feelings, right? But people confuse that because they think follow my emotions. But I am actually saying intuition is not emotion. It is feeling like energy, like feeling– right on your skin. Follow that inner vibration which actually is not emotional. It’s very calm, it’s very quiet and it’s very consistent. That’s how you know it’s intuition. It’s the voice that says, don’t go there and  your emotional self says, but I wanna to go there… that looks so fun… that looks like such a good relationship. Don’t go there. Oh, but it’s a nice person. He’s just he’s just wounded. I’ll help him. Don’t go there. Oh, well, that job will make me money, so I’ll overlook the fact that it’s in a nuclear waste plant or whatever.

Alison : Right.

Sonia: So your wishful thinking will go up and down and try to talk you in to things, and it’s restless and it contracts–worry really contracts. It’s noisy, it’s agitating, and it leaves your body, um, contracted because you’re protecting yourself. The energy goes in where intuition expands. It’s quiet. It doesn’t have a lot of words and it doesn’t vacillate. So if you start paying attention to your body, that’s why we say feeling, but I like to use the word now sense. Pay attention to what you sense, not what you feel. And that will help you get a little bit more dialed into it.

JEAN: Right? Right.

Alison : That’s really interesting because I have in my life, I think I’m better now, but in my life had a lot of worry about things. Um, and yet I’ve also had moments of very clear intuition.

Sonia: What causes the worry, is that you may have actually been tuning in to what was not sound, reliable… what might be dangerous, might be pay attention, but you had no power to voice that and make a change.  So because that’s crazy. You’re a weirdo. What are you talking about? Where’s the evidence? And that no longer is the pushback. In fact, anybody who says that to me today, I say, oh, you’re so last century. That is you know, that is so.. you are so a flat Earther.

Alison : That’s right..we’ve moved on.

Sonia: Right. Really we’ve advanced– so, when you do worry, voice it.   I say, what are you afraid of? Just what are you afraid of? What are you afraid of? That is actually a tool that I use called empty the garbage. And you keep saying that….what are you afraid of? And what are you afraid of? And then, I’ll say, what do you see right in front of you? And then, if they start to get to a point where, well, I’ve said it all, then I say, put your hand on your heart. What does your spirit say? What is your inner guidance saying? And it’ll pop right out. So sometimes a worry is a legitimate intuitive signal to make a change. And it’ll consume you if you ignore it. It’s when you acknowledge it and act on it that it calms down.

Alison : Right.

JEAN: You say, um, very much how putting language to what you’re feeling, where you’re feeling it is very important. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Sonia: Well, we have been gaslit for 2000 years that has been saying or 200 years or whatever in the Middle Ages when they started saying your spirit doesn’t exist and you can’t be empowered. We were muted. So we would have these feelings and we were shamed and shunned. Believe me I was the I’ve got it all. You know you’re a weirdo. You’re not you’re crazy. You’re the devil. I mean the, the repertoire of banishment to the inner self has been pretty intense. So the, the self-protective instinct was to be silent. But if you don’t name it, you ignore it, right? When you name it, you claim it. That’s real. Now, you don’t have to go ring your bell and convince anybody else to acknowledge it but you. So I have a tool. I say to people, just say, this works for me. This feels right for me. And I’m going with it, because then, you know, you nobody can push back. It’s like I am choosing to go with this. It works for me. Where in the past we felt we had to get approval. We had to get we had to get an authority figure to say, okay, we’re going, you can listen to that and we’re going to put importance on that. Mhm. So the things that’s changed in the culture, we really don’t feel the need for that approval because all the people that we were looking for that approval from are nuts. And we’re looking all those people and  so we don’t need to ask you anymore. You blew it. You have no credibility. So that’s another benefit of the chaos of the world is we are now coming back for self direction.

JEAN: It’s forcing us to. Right? It’s forcing us to be to become self empowered. Capital “s” Self.

Sonia: Yes. And and to think, well, who on Earth would you give your power to these days?  That is a scary thought. And though and  yet there are those who choose to still because they don’t want to be responsible, they don’t want to have any accountability for their life. Okay. So I also say, when it comes to listening to your vibes, that is probably the most self-empowering, self acknowledging choice you can make, but it’s not going to be necessarily one that’s shared by everybody you know, so don’t need it to be. Just don’t need it to be just. And don’t make them wrong either. That’s why I come back to well, this works for me, right?

JEAN: It’s a great. That’s a great, uh, honoring sentence. Clean and clear.

Sonia: It works. I have had so many people say you’re ridiculous, and they’ll say, I’m okay with that. It works for me, right? I’m okay. You know, you’re you’re a weirdo. Can be perceived that way. It works for me, right? Stops the stops the the the gaslighting. Yeah. And and that it definitely because that’s gaslighting. And then, you know, it happens and you can try this. It’s so fun. Within a few minutes of you just holding your truth and holding a like, I’m empowering, I’m empowered. I’m not living for your your approval. Um, within ten minutes they’re going to say, well, what do you feel for me?  within ten minutes, within ten minutes of them realizing that their approval isn’t going to doesn’t have any weight anymore, they’re going to then come back to. Well, actually, I’m scared to. Do you see anything for me? that’s pretty predictable.

Alison : Whenever you hold up a mirror, you always get that kind of a reaction. You know, when I was reading your book, the. I really felt a real sense that you have of compassion and responsibility. And it’s interesting the way the two go went hand in hand. And sometimes I have to say, the responsibility part of your book, I wanted to shirk, you know?

Sonia: Of course. That’s the only reason we don’t trust our vibes or own them or acknowledge them because we and we want to shirk them because we’ve been, again misled to believe we’re not capable of being responsible. And we are not able to make choices that will take care of us. But I simply suggest, well, who will then? Because that again. Who? That’s a scary thought.

Sonia: And even  I have to tell you a funny story, because I have a three year old granddaughter. And yesterday my daughter said to my granddaughter. You know, I don’t want you to eat that fruit because it’s not washed. So let’s just put it aside and eat it later. And she said, well, she said it might, it might make you sick. And my granddaughter said, well, I’m going to have to eat and I’m going to have to eat this and try it, because you never know until you try. And she just really was not going for that. But I think she’s an example of the new souls coming in.

Alison : Yes,

Sonia: I don’t think she’s exceptional. I think that’s just the new consciousness. It’s like, well, I’ll listen, I’ll take your input, but I’m going to have to really go with my own feeling here.  i just love.

Alison :  I love that… And you’re so right. And I think the idea of compassion in your words, even in this jump start your intuition bookk..Were you always this compassionate?

Sonia: Yeah, because I’m this intuitive and I know that people are suffering.  even if they’re externally arrogant and if they’re externally abusive and aggressive that I can get under that. And I feel that scared and pained self, and I do have compassion for that. I don’t get bullied by it. But I have compassion. It’s like you’re in pain. Yikes.

Alison : Right. And I think the hardest thing too is then the self compassion.

Sonia: Right

Alison : I think I have been so turned off from that and that.

Sonia: Women especially have been taught that if you have any sensitivity toward yourself, you’re being selfish and weak, and your job is to be a man with boobs and just be good soldiers and throw yourself on the fire and sacrifice yourself for the world. And so, it’s  our peers, these women that are all of a sudden coming back online and saying, you know what? I’m over that.

Alison : Yeah. Yeah.

Sonia: huge amounts of women are saying, you know what? I just can’t do that anymore..I can’t do it. I’m going with the official. I’m not available to that. And I’m going to take care of myself without guilt, and I’m going to be kind to myself. But it is an onboarding process. You have to do it in bite sizes, which is why Jump Start, I think, helps you do a little and see how that feels. Do a little more, see how that feels, because that’s the only way you’re going to do it at all.

JEAN: Can we talk about some ways to connect to your intuition?

Sonia: Sure.

JEAN: You know, not that, not that we’re ever disconnected, but…

Sonia: Well, we are. It’s like a radio station that we can turn off.

JEAN: Well said. So can we talk about, like, three ways to–.

Sonia: I’ll give you some real simple trick techniques. Intuition is actually just beneath our awareness. But what it requires is honesty. Okay.. You have to be honestly willing and the thing that intuition delivers is often information that invites a change. So you have to be willing to  contemplate and entertain a change of behavior or a change of direction or a change of status quo. So if we are not willing to entertain that, then we’re going to tune it out because it will make us uncomfortable. It’s what you said, Allison. It’s a little bit of that. It’s like, no, you know, so I say start small, let it be fun first, have some positive, non-threatening experiences, play some games. And my favorite intuition game is, I wonder.. I wonder?  The minute you say, I wonder, your eyes go up to the right side of your brain. Your heart opens and you’re not trying to figure it out. You’re just making yourself available for something. So I wonder, I wonder, say you’re at this, you’re applying for a new job. I wonder where I’ll have the best time? I wonder where I can be most creative? I wonder if I should go on this date? I wonder, I wonder what would be fun to do tonight?

Sonia: I wonder where we should go on a trip? I wonder where I’ll have new friends? Because I wonder is an invitation to allow yourself to entertain things that your defensive logic brain bats away like flies. They get in and then answer out loud instead of figure it out. I wonder… and then you start answering. I wonder if this gluten free bread might actually be better for me? I wonder if a mediterranean diet would be fun to try? I wonder if my back ache is connected to my very unhappy partnership? You know, you just wonder instead of have to know.  So get in the habit of wondering, hmm, I wonder– ???  that way it puts it in a realm of possibility that you can be informed, but you don’t have to act on it. That’s the trick around the ego. Second is, what does your heart say?  Put your hand on your heart and you don’t have to listen. You don’t have to listen. So here’s a tool that’s fun. Um, where would you like intuitive guidance? Who wants to be my guinea pig?

Alison : I will.

Sonia: Who wants to be my visual aid?… I need an honest question. That means you are truly available to an answer… You’re truly open to guidance.

JEAN: I am open to guidance. So ask you a question.

Sonia: Ask and if you’ll share with us what’s the question. And I’ll take you through the process of getting to an intuitive insight.

Alison : How can I find what I’m supposed to do now that I’m 65?

Sonia: Okay, so follow along and we’ll go quickly. Okay. Ready? My head says.

Alison : My head says, uh, do something very productive.

Sonia: Head says.

Alison : My head says, make a big change.

Sonia: My head says.

Alison : My head says you got to get out there and volunteer and do that kind of stuff.

Sonia: And my head says.

Alison : But my head says, you got to stay very busy to be worthwhile.

Sonia:  and I’m afraid of?

Alison : I’m afraid of failure. I’m afraid of of being, of being called lazy. I’m going to start to cry. I’m afraid of… I’m afraid of, um, uh, being vulnerable. I’m afraid of not finding something.

Sonia: Okay, hold on, take a breath. Ah, now look at something in front of you that’s beautiful. Just anything. Okay. What is it.

Alison : Jean.

Sonia:  Okay, perfect. What that does is that brings you back to the moment.  Again, my head says?

Speaker3: My head says that, I have to constantly have my time filled and be rushing around.

Sonia: I’m afraid of?

Alison : I’m afraid of, i’m afraid of being a nothing.

Sonia: Take a breath. Exhale. Ah, look at something beautiful. Put your hand on your heart.. And my spirit says?

Alison : My spirit says, have fun.

Sonia: And my spirit says?

Alison : You know, it’s great that you started tap dancing. That could be just it.

Sonia: And my spirit says.

Alison : I think you should try ukulele.

Sonia: Take a breath. And how does your body feel? I have one more question… My last question is what your spirit says true?

Alison : Yeah.

Sonia: Okay. There you go. You know, the two are very different… They’re very different frequencies.

Alison : And I could feel and hear my body when you were talking about what does your head and what are you afraid of? I felt like I was way up here.

Sonia: Oh yes…You were. You were in your head– now you got connected to your truth? Your whole voice changed, your face changed. Your light came out. You relaxed. You opened, contract it, contract it, contract it.

Alison : Yeah.

Sonia: The reason I say take a breath and what do you look at, is because it brings you back to your body and back to the moment.

Alison : right.

Sonia: And that’s how you have access. It’s that simple. It took us two minutes.

Alison : Right. I feel very relaxed.

Sonia: And then you have a choice. You can listen to your head, right? There’s no party there, is what my friend said. No party going on there. Or you can listen to your spirit. You have a choice. It’s important to give yourself that choice.

Alison : And do you still do things like this to yourself during the day? Or are you like…

Sonia: No, I’m Just tuned in. I’m like the I’m the Princess and the pea,  if it’s even the slightest bit off, I of course correct.

Alison : Really? Yeah.

Sonia: I can’t stand it. I cannot stand physically to be even a breath in my head.

Alison : Wow

Sonia: It’s so alien to me that it feels dangerous. I call it a bad neighborhood. I write in my books, it’s a bad neighborhood. And your ego is a barking dog in a bad neighborhood, and nothing’s good going to happen there. So get out of Dodge.

Alison : Yeah. In the society that we’re in now with social media and being inundated, inundated all the time, how how can I or how can anyone get in touch with their intuition, with all of that? You just shut it off.

Sonia: Well, it’s a couple things– the one factor that will change everything is to own that you have a choice. Have a choice on where I’m placing my attention. I have a choice on it, but I don’t have a choice on how it’s affecting me.

Sonia: So then we have to go back to discernment. Social media is there, but I find that it is a tool when it’s used in small doses. And it’s a poison when it’s used to go back in your head and check out and numb out.  So it is a tool for communication. I appreciate it, but I, I find real life more interesting. And so, (and I it could be partly my age) I, show up to social media as a tool to communicate, but I don’t show up as a way to look for myself.

Alison : Right.

Sonia: And that’s where I think if you’re looking, I mean, the first commandment is not to have false gods. So I always look at social media and don’t let it become a false god.

Alison : Right.

Sonia: That’s really important. And to be discerning, like pay attention after you’re scrolling for 45 minutes, how do you physically feel?

Alison : Kind of sick.

Sonia: You feel kind of sick, because you’re in your head. You know, the thing about being in your head, and this is biology, it can’t connect.  Everything is over there. So it’s very isolating. And that’s what makes us sick. We are creatures who are designed to be connected to ourselves, to others, to the Earth, to the universe. And when we get so disconnected, it’s like a plant, it’s like a flower in a vase with no water.

Sonia:  It really is very, very measurable. So use it as a tool. But don’t look for yourself in something that’s artificial.

Alison : Right.

JEAN: Sonia, do you meditate every morning?

Sonia: I do, I enjoy it.  I meditate twice a day, but I only meditate for ten minutes, 15 minutes. But I’m also in a constant state of connection. My head’s pretty quiet. I don’t have a lot of noise in my head. I don’t live there.  And when you’re present. You’re you’re in a meditative state. That’s what the goal of meditation is. So for me, a meditative morning or evening is just a check in with my Source. It’s like checking in with your best friend.. So that’s my why I enjoy it. So I show up to it because I get my guidance, I get my energy, I get everybody out of the pool, I get rejuvenated. But I’m not like, I’m not some kumbaya, manic, you know, meditator on a mountain. I think that’s your ego faking you out.

Alison : Mm hmm.

Sonia: I really do. I think that’s a bit of ego posturing to stay in control. I’m pretty at ease, now. I think we don’t have to contrive.

Alison : Yeah

Sonia: We’re designed to be, we are divine creatures. We are divine spirits that are designed to be connected and to be quiet and to be present. And if anything, the best way to get there is just turn on some music and sing and dance for 15 minutes.  It isn’t difficult. It’s simply a matter of your ego getting out of the way and you don’t have to– I always say your ego is like your barking dog. You don’t have to shoot the dog, okay? You just train the dog. Train the dog to  just step aside, okay? Some people think, oh, I have to meditate and shoot the dog. And it’s like, good luck with that. But you don’t.

Sonia: You just have to know that’s my ego. I’m not going to give it that much attention.

Alison : You’re very funny.

Sonia: I am very funny. But so is spirit.

Alison : Humor ,I think is the best… You’re cracking me up. Humor is the best way, I think to open up to all this. Yes…?

Sonia: Humor is God walking through your bones.

Sonia: Humor is God sprinkling through your nervous system. It it’s the great connector. It is to yourself, to others, to life, to goodness. So, um, we are funny.

Alison : I agree right.

JEAN: To your point in your book and what Allison just said, that laughter really has that power to lighten.

Sonia: It brings you back to spirit. It brings you back to your spirit. When you laugh, your ego lets go. Yeah. And you come back to your true self. And this isn’t about snarkiness and that it’s about really being delighted, which means filled with light, right?

JEAN: That’s so beautiful I love that. Delighted.

Sonia: Yeah, that’s what it means, of the light. And so when you’re delighted, you’re back in your light, you’re back and you’re, you know, anybody laughing from that place is aligned with their spirit. They’re clear. They lose confusion. It’s all good again. And it really is a change of channel instead of some big struggle like a cat in a bag, you know… We just shift.

Alison :  yea, and it’s really so present.

Sonia: Yes.

Alison : You know, you’re it is right there. Like sometimes when Jean and I start laughing you feel like, oh my gosh. Like, this is the only moment.

Sonia: Do you know what I think it is? I think it’s an exorcism of all the demons in your head.

Speaker3: Yeah, I totally agree. What do you enjoy the most about life?

Sonia: I love people. I think you can tell I love bringing the spirit out in people. It is even the most curmudgeon person has got a spirit in there, and I love seducing that spirit forward and having that shared connection and I, I love I really love the world. I travel a lot. I live part time in Paris, part time in London. I love adventure and I love that this world, you know, don’t believe what you read on the news. The world is beautiful and people are basically really good.

JEAN: Yeah.

Sonia: And what we’re given is a is a selected view that wants to keep us afraid. But a couple years ago, there was a big scene here in Paris about the election. The people were were on having manifestations and riots and whatever. And everybody was calling me and I said, yeah, until lunchtime or dinner. And then everybody went home and went back to their families. It wasn’t perpetual. All hell break loose. It was moments that were broadcast  and it was right outside my window…But the same people that are screaming at each other back and forth were having tea and on the on the break because hey, you got to go have your, your break. So don’t believe what you’re shown. It’s not the truth.

JEAN: Yeah.

Sonia: Connect with humans and then you’ll have your own experience. And that’s the only truth you really can use anyway.

JEAN: Yes– Sonia, are you working on anything? Now that you want to give a shout out.

Sonia: I actually am. There’s two things I’m working on for people who are interested. If it’s very immediate that they’ll listen to this. I have a course that I’m releasing called True Balance, which is how to understand your anatomy and your energetic anatomy and how to take care of yourself in today’s world. So that’s something that will be released, um, in the next few days. And then I have a book coming out in the fall that I’m very excited about called Read Life. Oh, how to recognize what’s really going on. And it’s about, you know, read the room, read people, read the situation, quit pretending you don’t get it right. Because I actually think we do get it and choose not to.

Alison : Right.

Sonia: And if you want to have some fun, work with my Oracle cards. Ask your guides. My new deck. That was just re put out there. It’s so full of energy and life and people are having a very fun experience.

Alison : Oh I’m definitely going to do that. Yes. That’s fantastic.

JEAN: Wow.

Alison : That’s a one way to get right into this field without making it difficult.

Alison : Yeah, yeah…You’re so open and I feel like you’re my friend.

Sonia: I am, I only talk to the spirit in people and the spirit in  all of us are deeply connected.

Alison : Yeah.

JEAN: That is so beautiful, so true.

Sonia: And, um, I’m so honored that you invited me to have this, this moment with you and to share these things with your beautiful people. It’s really been a gift.

Alison : Thank you. I feel that the same way about you. You’re really just so, you know, you’re not intimidating at all. You’re so, you’re so accessible.

Sonia: Iam a nice, loving, bright light that wants you to to experience the best of you.

Alison : Yes, you. Thank you.

Sonia: You know, the word psychic is a word that scares people because it’s like a knife. It cuts through– psychic. But what it means is, it cuts..I cut through all the illusions, and I see you and what people are not expecting is your beautiful. You’re just beautiful. And I want you to see that too.

Alison : Thank you, thank you. So you’ve made our whole day. It’s just the beginning of our day. So we’re going to be floating.

Sonia: So you get to go have fun and thank you all my love. And if anybody wants to learn more about me I have.. oh this is fun thing.. I’ll just tell you one more thing. I have a podcast with my daughters.

JEAN: Oh!

Sonia: And it’s so fun because we just talk about our lives and living together and growing up and being intuitive. And it’s pretty… they’re pretty funny too. So it’s called it’s all related. So if anybody wants to check that out, it’s all related. It’s another fun invitation into this awakened state.

Alison : Thank you.

JEAN: So beautiful.

Alison :  Have a beautiful evening.

JEAN: Your Light is such a blessing. Thank you Sonia.

Sonia: Thank you. Bye bye.

JEAN: That was great.

Alison : I’m as light as a feather. And I loved that.

JEAN: I loved the process she took you through.

Alison : Yes. And I really, it was emotional. And I feel so nice right now.

JEAN: Yeah.

Alison : Like. And I’m glad you were there because I felt like you’re you you’re just a positive force for me. And you do keep me grounded. So I was glad you were there. And, you know, I felt a little vulnerable, but I really just wanted to be honest. And I thought she was so graceful and heartfelt and beautiful, I felt safe.

JEAN: Yeah. Me too. Well, I do think girlfriends do that. And just friends doesn’t have to be girlfriends. Friends do that for each other. We we help each other get out of our, that thinking mind so much and come back into the heart. And Sonia absolutely champions the power of your heart as this, as the seat of intuition and your gut. You know those two places, um, and you and I were talking a little bit before how intuition is really like the truth of empowerment. Your own empowerment.

Alison : Right. And this book, I just think this book is fantastic. And you and I both did it. 21 days To Jump Start your Intuition… And it’s just bits and pieces. It’s like like a little meal and you can have bits and pieces and try it and see what you like and see what works. And I thought it was very, very beautiful. And after talking with Sonia, I mean,  the energy that I felt of just acceptance and love and fun.

JEAN: Yeah. and that’s been her motto all throughout any book that I’ve read of hers. It’s just like, here, try this, here’s this, this is what works. Here’s a tool, here’s something that, uh, will get you back to your true divine power.

Alison : And the idea of, So I guess my wish for everyone today is to laugh with something or about something. Or have some fun today.

JEAN: Have some fun. Like listen to a funny movie. And like Sonia said, dancing, sing. Just get out of your noggin and back into your soul.

Alison : Get out of your noggin.  I love that, I love that, okay, I got to get out of my noggin, right? We hope you have a beautiful day. And thank you for listening.

JEAN: Yes. Enjoy everything.

Alison : Bye.

Alison: Hello, Jean.

Jean: Hi. Good afternoon.

Alison: You sounded like…  good afternoon, how may I help you on insidewink… Who can I connect you to? hahaha   —Okay, so today….

Jean: We are connecting you to Sam..

Alison: Mitchell.

Jean: Right? Who is on the autism spectrum?

Alison: Correct.

Alison: And he he contacted us because a while back we did, um, Emily Grodin, we interviewed Emily Grodin, and he loves Emily, and said, I want to do that too. So he contacted us and Sam started a podcast, and an organization called Autism Rocks and Rolls.

Jean: That’s a great title.

Alison: Yeah, yeah. And he was. I really enjoyed him. And we also spoke to his mom.

Jean: Yeah. And you can see that  these children that are on the autism spectrum, how vitally important their parents are.

Alison: Yeah, they really are so close and they really are the advocates, you know. And so, um, Sam, though we want to mention, we interviewed him while he was in the car… And so the sounds a little weird.

Jean: Yes. And then we lose connection with him..

Alison: No, but, i think we took that out.

Jean: Okay, great.

Alison: But if not, you’ll understand.

Jean: But the sound isn’t as great as we would like it, so we apologize in advance for that. But the, um, the meat and the message of the interview is really wonderful.

Alison: Yeah, he’s a great guy. He just is, uh, so proactive. So here, listen first and then we’ll come back.

Sam: Yodelayheehoo.

Alison: What a way to start with a nice yodel.

Jean: Thank you.

Sam: Thank you for your attention. Not a problem.

Alison: That’s great. How are you doing?

Sam: Good. Not too bad. You?

Alison: Very, very well. We’re so proud that you contacted us to talk about, “Autisim rocks and rolls”.

Sam: Well. Thank you. I saw, I was just doing some digging on Emily, and I’m just trying to follow her, follow her steps, I guess.

Alison: Yeah. Emily, we love Emily. Yeah.

Jean: And her mom is amazing. So, Sam, I’m Jean.

Alison: And I’m Alison.

Sam: Nice to meet you both.

Alison: So how how is it going for you with with your podcast and with your website and your nonprofit?

Sam: Um, well, it’s going decent. We, um, I run the podcast. I have sponsors for it. I have a board for the nonprofit, and then I do speaking engagements. I’ve spoken in Oklahoma, Orlando, Canada, DC, and then let’s see what else in Stuart, Florida as well and some events in Indiana, which is where I’m from.

Alison: Oh that’s excellent. You live in a small town in Indiana, right?

Sam: Yeah, very small rural country.

Jean: So Sam, let’s start off with, um, autism, the meaning of autism and and what it means to be on the spectrum.

Sam: I didn’t realize that was a question. So, um, for me, it means that there’s a different way of thinking. Um, but I know society thinks that’s a neurological term condition, like it’s just a basic disorder. And I don’t see that. I just see it as a different perspective of life.

Alison: Is that your mom?

Sam: Yes.

Alison: Hi, mom…Okay. Hi, mom. We love you, mom.

Sam’s mother – GINA : Thank you. I love you guys, too. I love everybody.

Alison: That’s good.

Jean: That’s a great motto.

Jean: And so, Sam, what is something that you would like people to know about autism? That someone that doesn’t have autism. What would you like people to know?

Sam: That their perception is all not correct. One of the guests that I had on we literally had the interview, stopped me in the middle of it for five minutes. And his he said, and I quote, wait a minute, you’re autistic. There’s a point to this story, I promise. And his reign, when he was in his interview, he was expecting me to be wheelchair bound and not able to talk. Like, basically I had the mind of a two year old. Which I won’t lie, there’s some that have that population and there’s some like that, but then there’s this whole other population that is not that person at all. They’re high functioning or I hate that, really, but they just have they don’t need much support as the other person does. But they are successful. They’re going to college. They got a job as a doctor. They’re a chef. I mean, they’re doing something.

Alison: Which is so right, you know. Um, I think you at one point, your quote is there’s no normal in the world. Which I really love. What does that mean to you?

Sam: Well, to me that means no one is really the same. To me, every person is a different human being. Maybe you’re good at math. I’m not saying you are. I don’t, no idea. But i’m not a math person. You could be. I’m an English person. You cannot be. I’m a person who enjoys the sun, hot weather.. The other person likes cold weather. And that’s my friend, which I think is crazy for, but it’s just opposite personalities. And really, who cares? He can like the cold weather. Go have fun. Go have fun in an igloo, I don’t care.

Alison: Yeah that’s right, I totally, I totally agree with you, Sam.

Jean: 100% and, i love that your perception is so non-judgmental. You are choosing to see people for what’s withinside of them and how what they’re doing in the world and how they’re being in the world. Not not as going through life with a label or in a box. And I, I think your podcast and what you’re doing….

Sam: Well, I just believe that, I’m just saying that, with friends in particular too, i was just trying to tell them that, if you’re nice to me, we’re good to go. Like, I don’t care what we do. I’m the type of person that will go with whatever. Like, this is what I did this week.. with literally with a friend who’s also on the spectrum, we train watched, literally waited 15 minutes for a train.  And I’m not a person who’s a train guy. I never have been, I don’t care, I’ll do whatever. But we waited there for a train. The train didn’t come sadly, but I still deal with them just because I wanted to be around them.

Jean: Yeah, yeah.

Sam: Even though I’m not a train boy.

Alison: I love that. I love that you that you spent you just like spending time with him.

Sam: Yeah, that’s all I care about. They’re nice people. Why wouldn’t I? That’s all I care about. If you’re nice to me, we’re good to go.

Alison:  I love that. That’s going to be my new motto. Yeah. Can you tell me what brings you the most joy, do you think? What makes you the most happy?

Sam: I would say what makes me the most happy is just the times that I get with family and friends. I mean, I have a definitely a supportive family, even though that for the 15 years of my life, pretty much was socializing sucked. I had a supportive family and that’s what kept the ball going.

Jean: Yeah…That’s why it’s so important to have… really wonderful parents or a support team and friends.

Alison: Um, how did they support you? How did you feel their support?

Sam: They put this way. They weren’t strict, they had expectations, but they did their best to know what was like autism and what was not, because that can be very complicated. I mean, their child, who’s on the autism spectrum, is having a meltdown because of the buzzers, or is he throwing a tantrum because he didn’t get a teddy bear?

Alison: Oh…that’s so interesting. I never thought of it that way. And how did your parents and your family learn to differentiate between that?

Sam:  Why don’t we have one of the parents answer it. Yeah?

Alison: Gina, how did you learn to differentiate between, a tantrum or maybe the buzzer sound be, um, upsetting.

Sam: Hey, hold on, before you answer, I said buzzer sounds because I cannot ever go to a basketball game. Which is actually ironic, because now I have a job at my college where I’m now at the basketball game where I hear the buzzer is doing audio camera work. Go figure.

Sam’s mother – GINA : Um, yeah. So, I mean, when he was diagnosed, when he was four, I mean, we had a lot to learn. Um, I’m an educator, I’m a teacher. I’ve been a teacher for almost 20 years, and I had, uh, I mean, I did have kiddos that had autism in my classes, but I, you know, I knew very little when he was diagnosed, but, I mean, it was just kind of a trial and error and learning. Um, now, you know, I’m really good at detecting it just because we’ve had a lot of practice. Um, but people have to understand that a meltdown versus a temper tantrum are two totally different things. Um, a temper tantrum is usually pretty short lived, and it is, like Sam said, it’s triggered by something when a child, like, doesn’t get their way. And when children are learning how to, like, control their emotions. Um, a meltdown for somebody who’s on the spectrum, it isn’t a temper tantrum. If they could quit, they probably would. And they probably would like, want to because it isn’t enjoyable for them.

Sam’s mother – GINA : But in their brain, it’s just, you know, like if, for example, when Sam when he was when I was a teacher at the school he went to, I always wanted to take him to the ball games, and he just never knew when the buzzer was going to go off. And so, if you think about it, like if something startles us or somebody that doesn’t have autism, it’s just really annoying and you’re like, God, that really scared me. But for someone who’s on the spectrum, you take that times a thousand. That is literally what they hear because of the, um, the way that their brain is wired and that’s not controllable. So if it’s something they cannot work through, which because of the brain wiring, then it becomes much more than a tantrum and it could last for up to hours, until you as a parent figure out, you know, not to make them happy. You know, we never we never babysit them. And we never thought, well, you know, we’re going to give him what he wants.

Sam:  You held the fort down, but you weren’t, like…

Sam’s mother – GINA : Yeah, we weren’t strict, but we also had expectations. And I remember him saying, well, remember, mom, I can’t because I have autism. And I think he did that like twice in his life because I said, I said, well, I’m sorry, but you are. Yeah. Sorry. Like you’re gonna figure it out. We’re gonna figure it out because you don’t have an option.

Sam: I learned that the hard way.

Jean: You know, I found when I was hearing, uh, Sam’s Ted talk, I heard that it was very important for Sam to have structure in his life.

Sam’s mother – GINA : Yeah, that’s what I kind of viewed as, um, as far as that goes, that wasn’t really in my opinion, it really wasn’t an autistic thing. It was more of, this is something that my child needs. And I think as parents, I think we all do that. I think that we know, like, okay, even someone who’s not on the spectrum. So, okay, this child, if he or she doesn’t go to bed by like 9:30, then they’re a total bear the next day. That’s what they need. And so we work with them as far as doing that. But um, yeah, I just I knew I knew he needed to have structure and being an educator and then, you know, just paying attention and being an attentive parent, we figured out things, um, I just told the story the other day. When he was in preschool, he went to a special education preschool because I suspected that he had autism. And on the first day of preschool, it was great. He came home and he was like, I love it, mom. And I was so happy, but i think that day, for their specials, they had had like art class..and so he loved it when he went to school.  The next day they had music class and nobody told Sam that the routine was going to change. And he had like a huge meltdown. And so we put, um, things into place. We, you know, his teacher, uh, printed out these little pictures and he put Velcro in the back of them, and then he let Sam every day move the pictures so that, like, and told him… this is our schedule today. Totally solved the problem. And so as an educator and a mom, you know, or a dad who has a kid with autism, you  become really creative in what you do. But I think as a parent, I think we should all be doing that.

Alison: I agree.  That’s a great that’s a great solution. I listen to your Grandma Alice’s podcast with you. And I thought she was amazing. And what I got, um, what I took away was the idea of patience. How important patience is… Do you feel like you’re a patient person?

Sam: um, let’s just say it depends on what it is. Would you agree with me on that one? Because probably not the most at points, but it depends on what it is.

Jean: Okay, Sam, I just want to switch gears for a second here and ask you about your dating life. How is it to be in a relationship? Do you want to be? Is that something that’s…

Sam: Yeah. No. You’re right. I definitely want to be. But the hardest thing for someone on the spectrum, in my opinion, is socializing. One on one interviews is fine. But you put me in a big group, good luck with that. But what works for me is virtual. More than like doing in person. I know a lot of people have done in-person dating and virtual. I do virtual because what my thought process behind that is when I actually have time to think of the statement…. When we socialize right now, like you gave me these questions, I kind of got to be quick a little bit to a point to give an answer…But when I’m virtual, kind of like this as well, I have time to think versus if I need to talk to you right now in person, we do an in-person interview, i got to be quick because, like, you got lives and we can’t be here 50 minutes.

Alison: What would your advice be to someone that receives that they that their child has autism? What advice would you give them?

Sam: First of all, in my opinion, when you go online, be very careful. We’ve done the work online, we’ve done the research. It’s mostly negative. I’m not going to lie, it’s mostly negative. They say autism is a death sentence. When a parent goes read it, reads the information and they think their life is over. I don’t blame them. They’re kind of getting fed some wrong information now, should they know their child is going to have a meltdown? Yes, but here’s what you can do. We’re missing that part. Where’s the here’s what you can do for a meltdown. Not just autism people have a meltdowns. You’re really helping us. Yeah.

Jean: Sam, is there any organization? That has been very helpful to you and your family.

Sam: Yeah.  we can try that. That might be a question, but I would say that an organization that has been very helpful is really the help that I got from the family. I can’t really think of an organization off the top of my head. We’ve done a lot of things, but actually, scratch that, there is one thing that did help.. Taekwondo.

Sam: Uh, let’s give a shout out right now to Bloomington ATA Martial Arts Facility. They are a taekwondo facility, and I did some taekwondo there many moons ago, and I did actually for five years where I got my black belt. They helped me with self discipline, respect. And it wasn’t about, you know, punching the bag, kicking the bag. That was part of it. It was kind of fun to do. But it was more to that. The best part of martial arts is not the fighting, clearly, it’s about you growing as a human being, and if you’re not growing as a human being, you’re in martial arts for the wrong reasons.

Alison: Mhm. Mhm. That’s excellent. Wow. Yeah. You make me want to take martial arts. That’s excellent. Yeah, yeah. Uh who, who do you think some of your favorite guests have been on your podcast?

Sam: From a personal standpoint, there’s a lot of good people. Uh, Mick Foley probably is one of my favorites. Another guest I had, he’s a comedian from World’s Dumbest, Brad Loekle. He is an LGBTQ community comedian and he has a great sense of humor — he was a personal treat for me. I watched that guy when I was 15, and that was the point where my life stopped. And when I got to go home, I put on real dummies and saw him. He made my life a whole lot better, and I got to have the privilege of not only meeting the guy, but interviewing him.

Alison: That’s excellent. What are you studying in college?

Sam: Broadcasting.

Jean: Oh, that’s so perfect. That’s in alignment with what you’re already doing.

Sam: Yes, ma’am.

Alison: Thank you so much, Gina and Sam, we’ve loved talking to you. And we thank you.

Jean: Thank you for opening up our minds and our hearts to just seeing people

Alison: As they are

Jean: as they are.

Sam: That’s what we want to do at the end of the day.

Jean: That is true. Bye.

Alison: Have a great day. Bye.

Jean: Okay, well, that was great.

Alison: He was great. And I loved the fact that he reached out and contacted us. He he I love when people do that.

Jean: Yeah. And he has that personality kind of, uh, you know, just go for it.. And I love. Yeah. Very good.

Alison: And I so admire the fact that he started all of this. Right? Autism rocks and rolls. Um, when he was like 19 or 20, he’s doing a organization and this and he’s interviewing some incredible people.  I don’t know, I just, I, I really was taken with him.

Jean: Me too. And his mom, Gina was equally as wonderful.

Alison: What a treat that she chimed right in. Yeah.

Jean: And her being a teacher and you know her, I’m sure she must have really had to learn a lot to have a child on the spectrum. And and she’s wonderful.

Alison: She’s wonderful. I love, uh, it seems to be like a real theme to me in most of our interviews, people talk about how important relationships are and supportive relationships– here we’re seeing it in a mother/child, we’ve seen it in friends, we’ve seen it in partners.. And it’s just really hits it home on how important that is for our health.

Jean: Yeah, well, you are that for me.

Alison: Thank you.  You’re that for me too, my friend. So we hope you enjoyed this. And, Sam, thank you so much for reaching out to us.

Jean: Yes, Many blessings.

Alison: That’s right. Have a great day, everyone.

Jean: Bye bye.

 

ALISON : Hey, there. How you doing?

JEAN : I’m wonderful. How are you?

ALISON : Good. I learned how to turn this on so nicely.

JEAN : You are getting so great at at being able to turn on and off our recording system.

ALISON : It’s, you know, it’s a real skill. It really is truly a skill.

JEAN : Well, better you than me.

ALISON : That’s right. That’s exactly right. And today we are talking to Kathy Giusti. And she is the author of,  Fatal to Fearless – 12 Steps to Beating Cancer in a Broken Medical System. And I have to tell you, she has done so much in her life. It’s amazing. She has started a multiple myeloma research foundation (MMRF). She’s worked with presidents. She’s worked on committees to pioneer new drugs at Harvard. Right. It’s amazing.

JEAN : Pharmaceutical executive for major companies. I do not know how she finds the time to to accomplish everything she does with such brilliance and heart. Right?

ALISON : How does she shower?

JEAN : Like maybe she hasn’t, like a special car. A car as she’s driving to work, that kind of dresses her and showers her, that wipes her down because she’s amazing. I felt a little on the slacker side, like I’m just not doing enough. But I think she speaks to that point a little bit at the end of her book that, um, you know, we do all have to embrace where we are in life and, and honor each other.

ALISON : And, and I love people that have embraced their powerhouse.

JEAN : Yeah. I mean, she was perfect to write this book. She came from such a wonderful background of the medical recovery.

ALISON : Yeah. And remission twice with cancer. Right,  and it’s just a very interesting story. And it’s a memoir and a sort of a guide.

JEAN : And a workbook. Right. And I do wish I had had this book when, when Alex was diagnosed. And it would have been helpful. Um, but I’m so looking forward to interviewing this brilliant, beautiful woman.

ALISON : That’s right. Okay, here we go. Okay.

JEAN :  This is so great. We’ve been really looking forward to meeting you, Kathy. And my name is Jean.

JEAN : And I’m Alison.

KATHY : Hi, Jean and Alison.

ALISON : Thank you so much. Your book is just, uh, wonderful. Uh, I couldn’t put it down.

KATHY : Oh, good. I’m glad.

ALISON : And the memoir part really spoke to me because I really feel like I got to know you and your family, and I found it very moving and very, um, accessible.

KATHY : Yeah, I think that happened because, you know, I started out with writing a what to do book and, um, the publisher really wanted it to be a what to do book. But, um, you know, in writing it, I had to go back and read all of the journals that I had started writing for our daughter Nicole, when she was just one. And when all of a sudden you’re going through all the journals, you can kind of read between the lines, and it’s what I said, you know,– I know what I did right, what I did wrong, and what I didn’t do at all. And, you know, you really it takes time to just sit and reflect on all of it and on the on the impact it has on family, which obviously, you know all too well.

JEAN : Yeah. Yeah. Well, reading your book, I did think to myself, wow, I could have used this book and, and have already shared your book with, with a friend. So thank you for taking the time to do this book.

ALISON : My brother in law passed away just recently from multiple myeloma, and…

KATHY : oh, I’m sorry.

ALISON : Yes, and I’m reading this and I’m crying and I just thought, you know, thank goodness for you. Like, the impact you’re having on so many people is like, are you aware of that? Like, like what is that feel like as a human being?

KATHY : You know, I  think it’s one of these things where,  you just have to believe things happened for a reason, for some strange reason. Right? And I think I had this ideal background, kind of crazy to take on the medical system.  And if I didn’t have the right background to do it, I’m not sure I could have been as successful as we were. So I, I definitely got the sense of the progress in myeloma and how many lives we were saving in that field. I think it was when I went on to teach up at Harvard Business School and worked with all the other foundations, um, that I really started to see the impact of our knowledge and how to build really innovative nonprofit models that I could see the impact across all cancers and even all diseases. It’s really good to understand the physical journey that cancer will take, but I think the book took me one step further, unexpectedly, because I’m really quite a private person to share, um, that it’s all about relationships and, you know, the impact that disease can have on those relationships. And I think that became kind of the third leg to my stool of, okay, here are the things I hope I can give back.

ALISON : I think it’s um, I think your book is a love story.

KATHY : Yeah. Somebody said that to me. They said somebody said they felt it was a love story to my family and friends. Right. Um. And I felt, um, that it was more of a love story that i was writing to the patients.  Because, um, you know, really, I think what threw me off so much, you know, you can read that book and know that I was feeling like, oh, my God, I was so urgent, so passionate, all of these things. And it took a toll on my family. And so I had regrets about that in the book. But I feel like I know what it’s like to be a patient, and I know what it’s like to have that knot in the stomach. And I know the fear that you have. And so I had no boundaries. If they had just gotten diagnosed and wanted to talk to me at 9:00 at night, I talked to them at 9:00 at night. If they wanted to talk to me on a Saturday, while I was driving David to a baseball game, I would take the call just because I knew how scared they were, and I didn’t want to make them wait. But, you know, on the other hand, you know, boundaries are probably a good thing. And I think the patients have been completely understanding. If I said, can I just wait and call you tomorrow morning? Right. So, you know, these are just lessons learned in life, that you think everything is urgent. You think you’re the only one that can do it. You’re the only one that’s going to make them play right in the sandbox. And then you realize, you know, there are other people just as smart as me and as capable as me or can be trained, you know, to work with me and have that same kind of attitude and approach.

JEAN : It is a it’s amazing how cancer or any life threatening disease really throws your your perception of life into what’s important. And not only the patient, but all, you know, the orbit around us. Um.

KATHY : Absolutely. And I think, you know, what you find is, you know, there’s over 100 types of cancer, right? So it doesn’t matter which one you hear. All you hear is the word cancer. And all of a sudden, you know, we all say like there’s life before the day you got diagnosed, and then there’s life after. And you just wish you could go back to that life before. But you’re not allowed. It’s it’s not going to happen. You have to do your best to make the life that is now given to you. And I think the other thing is, for those of us that really understand oncology, we know that one cancer is not another cancer. And you know that pancreatic is tough. Brain tumors are really tough. And so there’s some cancers that are they’re just really challenging. And even today in this world of amazing immunotherapy, which is making a big difference, not every cancer is responding the same way to immunotherapy. So some cancers see more promise right now than others. And I think it’s important for patients and caregivers to know what’s going on in the field and stay in touch with all the science.

ALISON : Right. Do you feel there’s, um do you feel hope? I got hope from your book, but do you do you feel like because you’re faced a lot with this and just your life, do you feel hope?

KATHY : Yes, I do. You know, it’s funny, um, I always say that when people call me, when patients call me, they call me and either they were just diagnosed and they’re scared, or they run out of options and they’re scared. If people are doing well, they’re not calling me. So my job really is to, you know, first of all, make sure I can calm them down and then take the steps that you see in the book to try to help find them. You know, what is the next action that they can take. I find that by putting things into simple steps for patients and saying, okay, I know you’ve read all this and you’ve been to every site and it’s a little overwhelming. Here are the three things you need to do. And I just think by keeping things very simple and telling people where to keep moving forward, that’s where the hope comes from, that they’re starting to move through the process, and they feel a little more confident. They’re willing to ask their doctor more questions. They’re willing to say that the drug has side effects, whatever it might be. And so I think that confidence builds hope. And then the second part is there’s a huge reason for hope that is based off the science.

KATHY : So when I was diagnosed, you know, that was back in 1996. And, um, you know, science moved so slowly, so slowly. And in today’s world, you know, things, you know, back then it was $1 billion and ten years to get a drug to market. And in today’s world, it’s happening so much faster. You’ve got gene therapy, immunotherapy, genomics. There’s just so many ways you can go. And now even with AI, drug development will start happening much faster. Imaging will get much better. So when I say there’s reason for hope, the the hope is coming from the amazing scientists, pharmaceutical companies, everybody out there working on it. My biggest fear and why I wrote the book was now you have a lot more to miss out on. You know, if you’re not on your game, you’re going to miss a clinical trial that might extend your life, that could extend your life until the next drug comes out for you. And I just felt that that game of FOMO in, you know, treating cancer is a dangerous game. And I wanted patients and their caregivers to know you can beat the system. You just have to know the steps to do it.

JEAN : Can you give our listeners three really great tips what to do upon a diagnosis? Because you say that (in your book) and, but you’re they’re wonderful. And I wish I had known those.

KATHY : And I know, I would say the three tips, like when you read the book, you’ll know that it’s divided into three parts. So the first part is you’ve just been diagnosed. The second part is you are in the thick of treatment, and the third part is you’ve finished your treatment and now your so-called survivor. So in the first part, when you’re diagnosed, what I recommend to everybody, number one, is to Google wisely. And that means you don’t have to go everywhere. There are very good sites in oncology, the American Cancer Society, Cancer.org, um, the National Cancer Institute, Cancer.gov. So you can go to the cancer sites and they actually are highly credible and highly reliable. The second piece is then you have to identify within your cancer. Is there a foundation, a disease group specifically focused on that cancer? You would be amazed, i mean, here we are decades later in the field of multiple myeloma, you would think that every myeloma patient has signed up at the MMRF to get our newsletter, our updates on clinical trials, whatever. It doesn’t matter whether it’s the MMRF or Pancan or Lustgarten or any of these organizations, we don’t have nearly the percentage, high percentage of patients that you think we would. And part of that, because they don’t know we’re out here.

ALISON : Yeah.

KATHY : And that’s what’s really scary. Like a lot of patients don’t know that there are disease groups specifically focused in their disease. So I always say make sure you find a reliable disease foundation that can then concierge you much better to that specific cancer. And often like at the MMRF we have full time patient navigators. I mean they came out of the best hospitals and they will walk you through from the moment of diagnosis all the way through trials, everything you need. And they’re amazing nurses and, you know, they’re they could be utilized even more than they are right now. So that’s go to the cancer sites. They’re really good. Go to the disease groups and register. Give them your email. Otherwise you won’t get the information. The other is get a second opinion. You have to get a second opinion. And the third is know your insurance. Like you would think. Someone like me, who has lived in this field and breathed the medical field for all of my life, that I would have this right. And one of the reasons I wrote the book was to share with you. Like I had everything going for me. Everything, the right husband, the right kids, the right friends, the right insurance, the right job and i still messed it up. I still messed it up and in areas where I often messed it up was insurance, um, paying out of pocket.

KATHY : Um, going to my breast cancer doctor, going to…. I thought my surgeon was, um, in house. You know, you get hit with huge surgical bills. And I’m thinking to myself, if I’m not tracking this. Yeah, I always say, everybody know your insurance and make sure you call them. It’s not enough to just think that you’re covered. Make sure you talk to them and say, where should I go? Is this covered? And then fight for what you want? Which leads me into the second part of the book, which is the treatment. When you’re trying to get the test done, whether it’s genomic testing, biomarker testing, anything, you often have to keep asking for it. So like in multiple myeloma, we often have to ask for Pet scans. The insurance companies don’t always love it, but they’re really good at helping us to know when and when to get treatment and how we’re doing. And then when you get into the stage where you’re actually looking at the treatment side, that’s where we really say, you’ve got to make sure you’re building that team around you. Your medical team has to be amazing, and your personal caregiving team has to be equally as strong, because now you’re in the thick of it. You know, you need somebody to help with your kids, your parents, everybody there.

KATHY : Um, so we always say that that part is the most important part when you’re in the treatment side. And then when you get to survivorship, kind of what I say to people there is um, I know we all ring the bell when we finish chemo and we high five after. But it’s not like that. You take these really tough toxic treatments and they’re hard. Or you do a really tough surgery and people are like, okay, you got through that now you should be smiling and everything should be great. And I’m going to head back to work and we’re going to go do this. And you’re sitting there going, I have not healed. I’m sad. What’s wrong with me? And it’s very prevalent time of, um, depression. So it’s important that people know that. And then then you have to also be tracked. You don’t know how deep your remission is. So you need them to do more testing to tell you so that, you know, if you need more chemotherapy, anything to go along with the surgery you just had. So the journey doesn’t end. It’s just a cycle. It’s a cycle. And and patients still live in fear of relapse. It doesn’t matter how many times you get a good test result, you’re still scared every time you go to Sloan-Kettering or Dana-Farber or wherever.

ALISON : Yeah. Do you um, I thought it was very interesting about the clinical trials. You say at one point, know the point of the trial.

KATHY : Yes.

ALISON : I had never even thought about because some you’re like some are trying to see side effects. It’s not all just like about curing the type of cancer you have.

KATHY : So I think, you responded, you actually both were talking about this. This is really, really important. So when all of a sudden someone gets diagnosed, then everybody kind of comes in and tells them every story about where they got treated for their cancer. And here’s the best doctor for you. You start listening. But the truth is, cancer centers are all really good at specific cancers. It just depends on how their departments are built. Like, you know, we may have great hospitals in New York that focus on myeloma, but they may not be just as strong in pancreatic or glioblastoma. So you have to know which center to go to. First of all, that’s really important. And then the second part is you have to know who’s doing the best clinical trials. So that depends on who has a great clinical background at that academic center. And if they have a great background, then the pharma companies are coming to them with amazing clinical trials. But then as a patient, you have to understand a phase one trial means they’re still trying to find the dose. So like when you were saying all these clinical trials were coming his way, like you’re saying to yourself, well, how do I know which one to put them on? The truth is, you know, you have to look at the inclusion criteria.

KATHY : Can he even get in? Right. And this is this is hard stuff to read. You’re supposed to go to Cancer.gov and start reading this yourself. It’s this is why we have navigators, you know, at the walk you through. So you have to know the inclusion criteria. You have to know if it’s phase one, phase two or phase three. At least you know when you’re getting out to phase two, they know the dose. And at phase three, you know, now you really are in a very strong clinical trial. At that point, you’re really trying to understand the efficacy of the drug versus the standard of care. So you want later stage trials. You want trials that are near you. You don’t want to have to go crazy getting to them. Um, and you want to make sure that that drug looks highly effective and it’s hard to know.

JEAN : Yeah, yeah. For sure. And the other thing is, I think most people I mean, I would, I would assume that my doctor knew how to do all this. And like you say in your book, these, these brilliant doctors have like 13, 16 minutes to really be with you. Yeah. So you really have to become your own advocate. And, um, just the language alone in the medical industry is so overwhelming. And that part for me was, was very challenging and I remember clearly feeling like a deer in headlights, like what, where do we begin? And, um and everyone’s personality is so different.

KATHY : It’s all so complex, you know, and they use all the acronyms, and it’s really hard…

JEAN : Oh, that’s right..the Acronyms!

KATHY : It’s just so hard to stay on top of it. And so you have to understand who you trust to kind of help you sort through all this information that’s coming your way. And you hope it’s your doctor. But you are right. The doctors have limited time to focus on what the patient’s. The good thing about going to an academic cancer center is that they tend to specialize in certain cancers. So if you’re seeing somebody there that’s a hematologist oncologist, odds are they’re just strictly focused on myeloma or leukemia or lymphoma. And I think what happens a little bit more as you move out, you know, to the community centers, which are, again, still great doctors and 70% of cancer care is done at the community, not at the academic centers. Um, those community doctors have to know lots of cancers. So every cancer is making progress. And if you think that it’s up to your oncologist to stay on top of your type of cancer and then your specific subtype of cancer, like, there’s just no way. So it really is on you these days to stay on top of it for sure. Absolutely.

ALISON : Do you think, um, it’s important to get genetic testing or do you think it’s like I’m going to be transparent, because you were, I’m a worrier… So I’m afraid that if I get genetic testing, uh, I’ll be like, oh, oh, like, oh my gosh, can you give me some advice about that? Because my other friends going through it too.

KATHY : So, well, first of all, just remember there’s two types of genetic testing. One type of genetic testing is to understand what genes run in your family. So in a situation like that, if there’s risk in your family, for example, a BRCA gene and breast cancer, um, you definitely would want to know that. So I always say to everybody, you have to know the history in your family. You have to. And that way you’re able to tell your doctors that it runs in your family, and they can then make sure you’re being screened appropriately. The second type of testing, just so the listeners know, is that when you actually have cancer and you have a specific tumor type, they will do testing on that to identify what kind of genes are turned on and off in your specific tumor, and that will help them to decide treatment.. In your specific situation where you’re trying to say, I’d like to know if I’m prone to cancer, um, but I’m going to worry about it a lot. I would say to you, I would focus more on your family history right now and make sure you’re very aware of any, any risks at all that are going on in your family. And then secondly, I would just say there are so many ways to continue to prevent cancer that I would focus on them. I mean, it’s not complicated. I mean, you know, minimal alcohol, eat healthy, exercise, don’t gain weight. I mean, these are not crazy things that the world is asking us to do. And then I would say the third thing is there are tests that are just starting to be developed.

KATHY : They’re not covered necessarily by insurance quite yet. Um, but they’re getting better and better and better. And over the next number of years, I actually think this is one of the places that’s really going to expand in cancer care. I feel like, you know, my kids are in their late 20s now, and I kind of ended the book, you know, in a full cycle with them where they now know cancer runs in our family like crazy. So, you know, I said to them, you need to see a great primary care internist that’s on it. And they do. And I just say to them, you have to watch for every single sign. And if and along the way, your internist feels that there should be testing done earlier, do it. But, um, you will find there’s going to be some amazing new blood tests that come out that will literally tell, you know, the next generation, whether they have any kind of early cancer cells going on. It’s a vast and growing area. I wouldn’t say it’s there quite yet. They don’t have all the genes that they’re following. There’s still a lot of false positives. So then I worry about people like you that might worry more. Um, you know, so but I would say know your risk be really healthy. And three, keep an eye on these new diagnostic tests that are going to help us to identify what’s happening in our bodies.

ALISON : Thank you.

JEAN : There’s so much information out there, Kathy, you know, it’s like going to a huge shopping mall. You don’t even know where do I begin? And um, so another thing I love in your book is that you talk about the caregiver, which is so important and it’s essentially vital to the healing of the patient. Um, your family

ALISON :  You’re eight friends, i would love to meet them..

KATHY : It’s really funny, though. Think about it, um, the way that developed was my talking with a counselor, and again, I was headed to the second part of the book. It was Go time. I was working full time, two little ones, and now I’m headed to the stem cell transplant. I’m going to be in isolation for weeks on end. My sister’s my donor. She has three little ones at home. Like, how are we going to pull all this off? My husband has work, too. And so I went the counselor saying to me, they’re just going to be some things like your husband’s a great caregiver, but there’s just going to be some things that you, you want to share with your friends, like you need help. So just call them like, yeah, just call them. So I did, and it was funny because we all worked. But we ended up doing this lunch. And so we just stayed together through the whole thing. And like some of them were just again, when I in the book, I talk a lot about on caregiving, you always need to write down what your needs are. Your needs are the immediate, like, oh my God, who’s taking care of the kids? Who’s cleaning the house? Who’s walking the dog? Like the immediate stuff that you think, I don’t know who’s going to do this anymore? And then there are the wants. Do I want to stay working? Do I want to see a wedding? Do I want to travel the world? Like, what do I want to do? And I always say, line your caregivers up so that they’re doing what they want to do and what they’re really good at. So of my eight, there are some that are amazing cooks, like just incredible.

KATHY : I mean, they just fed our family while we were gone. And then there are others that just love to drive. And they, you know, they had time to do it. And then there were others, and I always say this to everybody like, don’t ever ask me to cook for you. You will be very disappointed. But if you say to me, Kathy, give me, give me two hours and go research everything you can find on my specific cancer. Now you’re giving me a job that I like, that I can do for you and hand it back over to you. And it just got done. I think that patients forget, um, it’s their job to delegate out to those that care about them. And it’s a gift. Like, of the eight, I think three of us have now had cancer. So, you know, I tend even though they were helping me, I turned my bag of scarves back over to them, gave them all the blankets like everything goes around, comes around. And then we’ve been together on anything that comes up. It could be sick parents, dying parents, you know, how do we handle all these things? And we’ve just all stayed together, which is it’s an amazing gift. We all talk about the importance of these relationships, but, um, I put effort into it. And I think it’s important in the book to also note that it doesn’t need to be eight. It can be one, right? You don’t need to have eight. You know, like I was really fortunate to have that. If you have one, that’s all that that’s perfectly fine. Just work with them as best you can.

ALISON : Right.. That’s what I loved, I loved that and can I just ask you about you for a minute? Like, you know, when you were saying that when a patient gets, you know, that fear, so what do you what did you do with that? Like do you meditate? Do you? I know you were journaling for your daughter. Has she ever read the journals?

KATHY : It’s so funny. I just got this question. Um, my kids laugh and say we can’t read your writing. Number one. Um, I think they said if you their response is, if you want us to read them, we’ll read them. But for right now, they really don’t have any interest in reading them. I think, you know, my mom recently passed away, and it was at that moment that, um, my sister and I were going through all of her things, and I just remember sitting on the floor and just reading and reading every card, everything she’d ever saved. And I can just kind of think that’s probably at the point at which my kids will do it. It’ll be funny because they’ll be doing it when I’m not here. Right. Um, but you know, they kind of view the book to be the cliff notes, so…

ALISON : Exactly. That’s right.

KATHY : So they can they can cheat and read that. haha

ALISON : Exactly. This is what you read before the test. haha

KATHY : But in terms of like the, um, the gut wrenching feeling and by the way, it doesn’t have to be the patient, it can also be the caregiver. Yeah. I mean,  when somebody calls me, like even my twin sister and, um, at one point, I remember she had elevated liver enzymes, and she had me completely convinced that she had metastatic breast cancer. And I, I mean,I couldn’t eat, I couldn’t do anything just for a period of time, but, you know, we are amazing human beings and somehow we find this way to compartmentalize. I can’t tell you how many times living with myeloma for so long and running the Myeloma Research Foundation, I would get horrible test results. And then I’d have a huge event where I had to speak in front of hundreds and hundreds of people. And I remember calling my friends one of the eight and just saying, I can’t do this, like I can’t do this… And they would literally walk me through it and help me get back on my path. And, you know, everybody says, go for a walk, go for a run, go do a yoga class. And I do. And I always say, people say, well, what else do you do? And I always say, I’m completely neurotic about my sleep. Neurotic. I’m just like, just please give me give me those eight hours. I’ll take it. And your immune system builds while you’re sleeping, so it’s really important to do it. I eat healthy, but I still also go for a walk, usually out in a park or somewhere in nature, um, every morning. And just try to keep your head in the game. And I think those things are, are critical.

ALISON : Because I’m amazed that what everything that you’ve done and went through, I was like, oh, man, you know, we were recording your intro this morning and I said, how do you even have time for a shower? Like, you’re amazing.

JEAN :  Just being a mom… and being an executive and yeah, you are amazing. And  I’m a little curious, Kathy, do you have any religious background or spiritual background that you..

KATHY : This is so interesting. Um, when my husband and I got married, he’s  was Catholic. And, you know, this happened, you know, just a few years after we got married. So it’s almost like he didn’t know any other life with me except cancer. And think about it, he’s been living with it now, with me for decades and decades. And I think, you know, there were points in time and you could sense this when you’re reading the book where I, you know, I think he’s like fed up, like, oh my God, how many like, now another doctor’s visit or during my breast cancer journey, like it was supposed to be double mastectomy. And then I would move out and be done. But it went I had these terrible infections. It went on and on and on, and I could just see it in his eyes, like, how long are we going to do this? And so, that’s why I always say to everybody, um, just be aware that your caregivers are giving so much. We forget to say thank you. We forget to really like sometimes we almost take advantage. Like, he was always great about driving me to every doctor’s appointment. I could have driven myself like it would have been fine.

KATHY : Um. And he probably would have been happy going to work. But I was like, he offered. And I said, sure. And I think, I think over time, what happens is, if it happens for a long time, resentment builds and you really want to avoid that. When you’re a cancer patient and your caregiver is often the person you love the most, you don’t want resentment building. You want to be able to talk about it and handle things like that. So going back over to the religion, um, he really did, when we were in Chicago and I had first gotten diagnosed, we were very close with our Catholic Church out there, and he was super close with the priest, and the priest was this amazing, amazing man. And it was a small church that felt so community like. And so, they really got us through, like, um, you know, I ended up getting pregnant. I ended up having David and we ended up saying, okay, we’re going to move back east to be near Paul’s parents and my sister. And that whole story is in the book. But, you know, it was Mother’s Day and the the entire church, he had us come forward in the entire church, blessed us before we left.

KATHY : He was just, like everybody was there for you. And I can’t even describe it, like I write about it in the book. Like we went and lit the candles and just working him we haven’t found. Um, I hate to say this. We haven’t found anybody like him since that time, and it was a special time for us. And as a result, we ended up..this is terrible to say, but we came back to this area on the East coast, um, came to a church, and there was embezzlement going on. And we ran into some problems and we went off the rails. And I do wish we could find our way back. I do, um, because I think it helped us tremendously early on, and I think it would still be helpful today.  And I think everything is always about finding special people that you can relate to, whether it’s your friend, your doctor, a certain nurse, a priest, you know, a counselor, there’s just people along the way that you, I don’t know, you just work with, and you love them and they help you and you have to see that and catch on to it and make it work for you.

ALISON : I’m so impressed by your um you know, accessibility and your vulnerability in this. And yet you say you’re a private person.

KATHY : I know I think people are really shocked the ones knowing me um, that I put that much into it. But I felt like once I was going through the journals themselves, I didn’t expect to do it, but I could just see that I had made mistakes. And I feel like here I am, you know, 66 years old, and I and I’m just realizing this now, like, I laugh about it. And you can see toward the end of the book I’m writing, how many times did I Google cancer, myeloma, whatever it may be. And I never once googled relationships? How to have a good relationship. And so,  while I was writing the book, I was literally saying to myself, you know, Kathy, you are kind of a jerk, you know? And so I really did spend I’m a curious soul. So I kind of switched while I was writing the book and, and I would still go on my walks and nature and everything. But now I was listening to, you know, Gottman and Brene Brown and people that were more like in those areas. And I was learning so much and I thought, oh, this is how I’m supposed to be. Um, and I think it really did teach me a lot. And I felt like, I don’t want people to wait till they’re 66 to figure some of this out. I hope that if people get diagnosed earlier, or even if you’re a child caregiver to an elderly parent or whomever, that you have to realize, you have a voice and it’s up to you to speak up. And don’t let resentment feel like all these little lessons in there. I didn’t want people to learn them too late in life, like like I did. Um, I felt like I could have picked up on those much sooner.

JEAN : But, you know, Kathy, I don’t be hard on yourself. I think the universe chooses certain people to  deliver, communicate information, and clearly this spoke to your strengths. And at the same time, we’re all having experiences in our life. And bottom line is, we’re learning how to just love more. Yeah, love more unconditionally and for ourselves too.

KATHY : You definitely do that in the book.

JEAN : You hit this out of the park.

ALISON : You are really amazing and you’re just…

JEAN : So lovely

ALISON : lovely and normal and great. So Thank you so much for talking to us. I, I’m giving this book to my friend who’s now going through lung cancer and and you and you’ve given me so much hope. And thank you very, very much. You’re touching so many people.

KATHY : Thank you. And thank.

JEAN : You and your family are truly amazing and your Eight.

ALISON : That’s right… Love to all of them.

KATHY : Thank you thank you. It was really nice talking with both of you.

ALISON : Have a beautiful day.

JEAN : All the best okay.

ALISON : Bye.

JEAN : Wow.

JEAN : She is just, uh, so full of information and on both the intellectual side and the wisdom heart side.

ALISON : I, I was so, um, I thought from reading the book, like, she would seem so intense, and yet she’s so warm and lovely and open, and, you know, I just really enjoyed speaking with her.

JEAN : Me too. And I just want to read here three things that her, um, her takeaway at the end, she says, say thank you. Don’t ever take kindness for granted. Number two, speak up. Don’t ever let resentment build. And number three apologize. It’s never too late. So her journey has taught her some very deep soul wisdom that that we forget sometimes. But a cancer diagnosis, um, really has a way of transforming our perceptions to what’s very important in life.

ALISON : And that, you know, I’m always taken aback reading all these books and talking to all these people. Doesn’t it always come down to love ?

JEAN : It does.

ALISON : Like, you know, when you see, goodness, you’re actually seeing love.. Like, um, you know, love for yourself, advocating for yourself, love for your caregiver… You know, we talk to all these people… Lasagna Love, You Matter, Humankind…it’s all about love

JEAN : Yeah. It is. Um, so that’s great to know and to just check in with yourself, you know? Am I losing track of love and what’s truly important in life?  What’s your North star?

ALISON : What’s your North star? That’s great. I love that.

JEAN : I got that from Kathy, by the way.

ALISON : We can’t we don’t have an original thought, us, you and me.

JEAN : I think she says that when she’s sitting in Starbucks and she decides what’s really important in life, like, write it down and let that be your North Star.

ALISON : That’s great. That’s beautiful. Well, we hope that you enjoyed this as much as we did. It’s really it’s a wonderful book. Fatal to Rearless – 12 Steps to Beating Cancer in a Broken Medical System. I just loved it. Thank you so much, Kathy.

JEAN : Yes, Kathy, we send you our kindest thoughts.

ALISON : That’s right. Have a beautiful day.

JEAN : Bye.

JEAN: Is our theme song playing?

ALISON: It’s playing under just about now, and then it fades out. You know, the show today is going to be a very exciting interview, don’t you think?

JEAN: Absolutely. We are interviewing, um, Michael Clarke.

ALISON: You did that? Well, I, I could not have done that.

JEAN: He’s got a great accent.

ALISON: He does, he does. And the name of his book is Dream Guidance – connecting to the soul through Dream Incubation.

JEAN: Right. And isn’t that a fascinating title? Yeah, I think it’s very, um, catching…I, Jean, don’t think I remember my dreams. And I never really gave dreaming a lot of my thought or conscious attention that it could hold answers to my desires or questions or or healing. And now, from reading his book, I’m, i’m 180 degrees turned around, around about my dreams.

ALISON: He has a definite process to help people get in touch with their dreams, remember their dreams, and how to sort of evaluate their dreams. Which I thought was really interesting because I know I do have dreams, but they just seem like a cluster of craziness.

JEAN: You know, same, same here in my dreams, I feel are just airy, abstract activity that really don’t give me any insight. And, I am so wrong. Yeah.

ALISON: And that he says, you know that if you really pose a question and the way he has, he has guidelines to help you figure out how to pose that question. Right. You can get true insight from your dreams, which I love. I love that idea. It’s exciting to me.

JEAN: So anyway, we hope you love this interview and, uh, you’ll you’ll get a lot from it. It’ll be a great resource.

ALISON: But don’t fall asleep during the interview and dream.  stay awake.

JEAN: Hi Machiel, so great to meet you, I’m Jean

ALISON: and.. I’m Allison.

MACHIEL: hi, Allison.

ALISON: We’re already talking about dreams while we’re. We’re waiting for you.

MACHIEL: Excellent. I, I’m curious to to to to learn what, uh, what was, uh, bubbling up for you.

JEAN: All right. Well, for me, I don’t consider my dreams of any importance. And I thought to myself, wow, we’re going to get to interview this author and this will be a whole new awakening for me about my dreams. And it truly has. And I am going to really give my dreams some some attention now because  if you were to ask me, I do not think that I remember that i have dreams, I’m sure, but I don’t remember them, and I don’t even try to remember them. I usually go, that was crazy. That didn’t make sense. Thank God I’m awake now.

Speaker3: One of those.

ALISON: Right? Right.

MACHIEL: But I love this notion that you, uh, that you started with, oh, dreams. Uh, like many people, they discard dreams. They don’t think it’s important. Uh, we don’t live in a culture that, uh, values dreams. Like many indigenous cultures, people in the morning ask, what did you dream they would rely on, on dreams for, for their path through life? And, uh, of course, there are many ways that you can connect to the deep self, uh, intuition, yoga, meditation, just, uh, being a kind person. So it’s not that, uh, that dreams, uh, is necessary, but it can be such a valuable tool in, uh, in life if you know a little bit how to listen and be with them.

ALISON: Your, your, your process, I thought was really amazing about, um, how to ask the right question, how to do a little ritual. And the question thing was challenging for me because I kept thinking, no, that’s that’s not that’s not open ended. That’s not alive. That’s not, you know.

MACHIEL: Yes.

ALISON: Well go ahead.

JEAN: Yeah. Mikhail, I was curious if you could before we get into that, I just would love our, our listeners to just hear. What got you interested in dreams and thn. Yeah, that would be great.

MACHIEL: Yes-  like many things in life that have a deep impact. Uh, this it’s either, uh, pain or love. Mhm.. I was in deep pain, I had unresolved heartbreak of my father who died when I was ten, and our culture and family didn’t know how to grieve, and I didn’t even know how much unresolved grief I had until I started tending to it. I was stuck in my life in my early 20s. I didn’t know what to do. I started smoking way too much weed, uh, and sit on the couch,  which made me even more lethargic. And, um, so I was in a pit… And by chance, I stumbled upon the works of Carl Jung, who provided a way of thinking, and imagining the dream world as an expression of your own psyche. And so I got a kind of a psychological x-ray of what was going on inside of me. And there I learned a whole bunch of things from my shadow parts, things that were, uh, destructive, uh, characters showed up that brought me in a certain direction. So the dreams were a lifeline that I found, and I climbed out of the pit, and then I stayed connected to this lifeline because it had shown so much compassion and guidance to me that, uh, my life had turned around, that I’m eternally grateful to the world of dream and its inhabitants.

ALISON: And then how did you come up with your process then about the question in the ritual? Because it’s really beautiful.

MACHIEL: Yeah. And the questions is, uh, it can be helpful in general to, to learn to ask questions because questions deepen intimacy. Uh, we all ask ourselves throughout the day a lot of questions. And, uh, also they, uh, can often be refined instead of asking, why can’t they do this, then your own brain or psyche responds. Uh, and if you ask, how can I do this? You already get a different answer, right? Um, but I studied many dream, uh, techniques that started with Jung, but it branched out to, uh, many traditions around the world, and, uh, one thing I learned is that when you’re in the dream, you can become lucid. So in the dream that you know that you’re dreaming. And a lot of people have had it in some variation that you were there and was like, is this a dream? Or some people are like, oh my gosh, I’m in a dream. And then you can ask questions and you and you start learning that you live in a, in a responsive universe. Yeah. That you ask something and that the dream world shifts to, to help you. And, uh, I’m not that easily lucid. So I started experimenting with asking the dream questions before you go to bed in order to have a dream respond. And you can ask questions around love or creativity or health or anything that is is relevant to one’s life. And I noticed oh, this, this works too. And, uh, so, uh, I practiced and then I learned, oh, this this technique that’s done all over the world in all cultures. So, uh, nothing, nothing new there. But I first, for a year and a half, practiced on my own, then studied all these cultures. And then I desolated these five steps. How? How everyone could ask their dream question in order to trigger a helpful response.

ALISON: That’s great. Yeah.

ALISON: I think my favorite thing was, is, is your question alive? Yeah. Because even in life, um, it’s great to be truly curious and alive and present with the question. I think I just loved that statement.

MACHIEL: Yes.

MACHIEL: And also in, uh, even in conversation like this, the quality of the conversation is partly by are these questions really coming from a place of curiosity? Right. Uh, are they something you really want to know, or is it a bit obligatory? Uh, question. Right. And, uh, and that that makes a big difference. So yes.

ALISON: Yeah.

JEAN: And, and that I just think that bleeds into, into our life, you know, are we living life from the word you used? Obligatory. Or are we living it from a true soulful interaction? Asking questions. Being curious. Um, so I love that. And you know this sometimes the sad thing is that we’re so busy. Yeah, we don’t give that time. You know, we’re just checking off our to do list and getting to the next thing so fast, and, um, you know, so your, your book addresses so many wonderful aspects of, of life.

ALISON: What was interesting to me, too, is that there’s a lot of books about, you know, a dog means this, a snake means that. And and then you point out, you know, maybe not, you know, maybe not. If you’re, you know, this is. And, um, and I liked the dream that you had. I think you’re asking about, um, what do I eat to be healthy? And you were drinking on a beach? Uh, whiskey and coconut, right?

MACHIEL: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

ALISON: But I thought to myself, if I got that, I would have been like, well, there you go. Break out the whiskey. But you you were able to interpret it in such a great way and that that’s, is that like a talent that you have or can I get there too?

MACHIEL: Yeah. We can we can all get there. It’s it’s just somewhat of the familiarity with, uh, with dreaming and, uh, what you pointed out that a lot of books say dark means, uh,  whatever, you will be lucky. And, uh, there is some kind of, uh, maybe a general quality to a dark that in most cases it says something about an instinctual way. But then there are so many variations. Is this a dark that you had, uh, or is it the neighbor’s dog, or is the dog that did by you when you were young, or are you afraid for dogs? So it varies. Yeah. Dreams are really manifestations of your own psyche in a three dimensional environment. So in dreams and world that you find yourself in, it’s not a movie that you watch because actually in the dream, you’re, you’re in a, you’re acting in a world, um, very similar to this world. Right? And, uh, the only thing is that we take now this world for real, and then we go to bed and we sleep. And in the dream world, we take that world for real, right?

ALISON: Right.

MACHIEL: And then we wake up and we take this world for real. But actually, there are these multiple worlds coexisting. We can see that from our own experience. And in the dream, you can see how that world is is a creation of your own beliefs and expectations and intent. And so let’s say this was a dream, and now the door opens up and my previous boss comes in and he shakes his hand and my own critical voice would be presented in my dream as my previous boss, who comes in and shakes his head because I associate to my previous boss that he’s very critical. Um, someone else that might be their mom, or their neighbor, or their brother or partner or, uh, whoever is critical in their life. So if the dream book would say previous, uh, your boss, then it would be quickly say, oh, it may be an authority figure. Um, but it is it’s much, uh, much more nuanced. You get further by asking, what do I associate to this character, right? Oh, this is neighbor John. And neighbor John, uh, is very jealous.  Oh, jealousy shows up as neighbor John and acts out something in my dream. And then we can learn about what? What a little bit about your own jealousy. That attribute in the dream to neighbor John, the jealousy is present. And then you can see how do I relate to jealousy or how do I relate to criticalness? And then I can shift, uh, and those dynamics play out in this reality as well. So it can just starting to think about how do I relate to Criticalness. Right. And if I then imagine our criticalness or I always get scared or I fight it, right, what other ways can I can I develop to, uh, to befriend or to understand this? And then in this reality, things also change because of course we dream work is partly just to enrich your life and you want to also live. This reality more fully, and the dream world can really help you understand what goes on inside yourself in a way that’s very hard to get to just by thinking about a situation.

ALISON: Hmm. Right, right. That’s interesting.

JEAN: Very interesting. Right. Okay. Well, can you share with our viewer.. Listeners the five steps?

MACHIEL: Yes.

JEAN: Give an example after each. That would be great. Yeah.

MACHIEL: I, uh, I happen to live in Mexico City these days.

ALISON: Oh.

MACHIEL: And, uh, recently, I, uh, met a woman who was, uh, laid off from her job, and she took some time off, uh, came, uh, came here and I asked her, what what are you going to do?

JEAN: Mhm.

MACHIEL: She said, I don’t know yet. I said, well you could uh, consult your dream, because the dream is interested in helping and educating. So um, and she was like, oh that sounds good. And she said, what can I ask. I said, first of all, what do you want to know? And that is really step one. What is what is alive in you? What do you want to know? And in her way, in her life, what is alive is- what shall be my next step, or what company, or what shall I do? And for other people. I said, how can I find a loved one? Or what if you’ve been working on your health? A question around the diet and then step two is, phrase a good question? Yeah, that is one question at a time, not how do I become rich and find the love of my life.. That is too complicated and too much. So she said, uh, well, actually, I want to know where I will apply for a job?  And the dream will very seldom say, uh, write to Walmart.

MACHIEL: hahah– and that’s your job.

MACHIEL: So. So that’s important to know about about also asking these questions. The same in love. It’s it’s not asking where where do I find my loved one? But far more, what can I do in myself to cross paths with the beloved or open up or work on my own, uh, fears? So, uh, the woman, decided to keep it a bit open and said, what is my next step? Then she did a little step three, is do a little ritual, and the ritual is, uh, anything you do with a heartfelt intention, right?  Light a candle. Sing a song, do a dance. Make a drawing….so she made a little drawing.

JEAN: And why do you think that’s important? To do a ritual?

MACHIEL: Well, I’ve studied all these traditions, uh, around the world that do this, too, whether it’s in African shamanism or in Islam or the Dalai Lama talked about it recently, he just suggested to put some form of grass under your pillow.

ALISON: Wow.

MACHIEL: And so you see all these cultures, they say do a ritual. But these rituals are all different, so it cannot be the grass or the glass of water or the candle. But it is more the dynamic in the ritual that you do something with a heartfelt intention showing to the other side, let’s say to your soul or to the Divine or spirit guide. Or if you want to believe your brain, it doesn’t matter so much it shows that you’re interested… and it’s relational.

ALISON: Mhm mhm.

MACHIEL: And  like Jung said, it’s like there’s an old 2 million year old man or woman living inside of your psyche. And you can connect with this old wisdom within. And ritual seems to be the way to do that. And and almost any indigenous culture also prescribes ritual for healing.

ALISON: Right.

MACHIEL: And not to get too far off. But probably the placebo works because it’s a ritual.

ALISON: Mhm.

MACHIEL: And so placebos work, but not because you eat uh, a sugar pill, but because the person with the white coat gave you something and says, uh, take this, you will be be better, right? It’s actually a kind of a ritual in itself.. And so a ritual is, is you you pump up your expectation, your intent, your belief, your desire and if that is strong, the the other side, the response. If it’s not so strong, then you probably also don’t have a question that is alive. Because if I want to know something, it’s a strong intent, desire and intent if I’m going to ask, where did, uh, the doormen go during lunch?  my dream is going to think …..

ALISON: Hahahahah

JEAN: Because curious minds want to know..where he got his hamberger from?

MACHIEL: Yeah, the old wise woman within probably then thinks, well Machiel, maybe focus a little bit on your own life? hahah

JEAN: Like, stay in your own lane.

ALISON: Don’t worry about the doorman.

MACHIEL: Right, right, right.

MACHIEL: So you do a ritual in step three. So this woman did a ritual. Then step four, is sleep dream and write it down. Because dreams uh, if you don’t write them down, most of them evaporate. And  if you want to spark dream recall, just start writing down even a feeling and you will have two, three, four dreams a week.

ALISON: Right.

MACHIEL: So she wrote down the dream and then step five is work on it. And in her case, uh, she had the following dream. She said, in the dream, I’m in a shoe store and I’m trying to fit several shoes, and then someone comes to me with a pair of shoes, uh, and suggests that I put them on. I look at them, and i’m not convinced, but I do it anyway. And then they fit like a glove.

ALISON: Mm.

MACHIEL: That’s the dream. And, uh, step five. She worked on it, and she pretty quickly came to– oh, it feels like I need to be open to the possibilities that come on my path. And also possibilities that might not feel or look like a perfect fit. I should try it and then, uh, I might actually find the perfect fit. Where i don’t expect that.

ALISON: That’s kind of amazing, I love that.

JEAN: Did she come up with that interpretation or did you help her with that?

MACHIEL: No, no… She told me.

JEAN: Yeah.

MACHIEL: And uh, and this was a woman who normally a little bit like you, Jean, who wasn’t overly interested, uh, intrigued by dreams. But uh, after this conversation, thought, because I sleep and dream tonight, anyway, let me try it.

ALISON: I wanted to know, do you think, um, I have like two things I have to ask you. The first one is, do you think that your subconscious, even if you don’t ask a question, your dream state is always answering something in your subconscious anyway? Do you think that without the questions, dreams represents something that you need to know? Do you understand what I’m asking?

MACHIEL: I think, I think so, and, um, I don’t I don’t think that all dreams do that, but if we, if we’ve been working on on something long enough, the dreams seem to come spontaneously adding to it. It’s like it’s, uh, the great creative weaver that weaves together with us the tapestry of our life.

ALISON: Oh that’s interesting.

MACHIEL: And many people have had spontaneous, helpful dreams like, Paul McCartney had the dream of,  “Yesterday” ,  Stephen King as many of his plots from dreams, probably nightmares. hahah

ALISON: Exactly.

MACHIEL: And the largest oil field in Kuwait was found because someone had the dream on where to drill. So, uh, they come spontaneously.

ALISON: Mhm.

MACHIEL: But if we turn towards the dream and ask for help, uh, we get more help. But it is almost like we need to give an informed consent, as if there is some form of free will that, uh, that says, if you want to figure it out on your own is fine if you want to have help. Equally fine, both elements, the dream seems to be totally okay with. But as life is, uh, pretty complex by times, yeah, it’s nice that there is some creative force that can can add in a, in a helpful way. So I don’t think all dreams do that, but a lot of dreams will pick up on the themes of our lives.

JEAN: Mhm.

MACHIEL: And sometimes dreams anticipate tomorrow. So dreams are not only in response to yesterday but  are anticipating tomorrow. It’s like a flower that comes out, comes first out in the dream and then in this reality.

ALISON: Right.

MACHIEL:  it embodies this way into into the world.

ALISON: Right.

ALISON: That’s beautiful.

JEAN: Yeah, it is beautiful.

ALISON: Do I get to ask my second question right away? Okay. Um, my second one is,  have you ever connected with somebody in a dream? ( audio unclear – (in your book) It seems like you talk a lot about.. You even say, if you’re dating me, you’re talking about dreams.- audio unclear)  Have you ever had a dream and said to someone, okay, tonight, let’s try to dream together? Or has anything like that ever happened for you?

MACHIEL: I have tried this, but I’ve not been very successful with it. But I know people who, uh, who have the ability to be relatively easy, lucid in their dreams so that they know they’re in their dream. And I know from a man who, uh, had this experiment with someone else and that they said, uh, I’m going to show you a sign tonight in the dream. So he showed, uh, I think he did this. Then the other person, uh, would have to say, what is the sign? And they had a third person there to make sure that person “A” would tell person “B” the sign, and then person “B” would come and say, I saw this sign. And so they met up. He did the sign. Uh, he was lucid. The other person wasn’t, but he remembered it.

ALISON: Wow.

MACHIEL: And so it seems to be that we in that we that we enter and what Jung would call the collective unconscious territory where you can meet other living people and or even deceased loved ones. We can, uh, we we encounter once in a while in a dream.

ALISON: That’s that is so amazing to me.

JEAN: It really is. And after reading your book, I feel like the realm of dreams has this grand, this infinite intelligence.  and I’ve been schooled in prayer and in Science of Mind, which is affirmative prayer and using, you know, your mind and this whole other dimension, Machiel from dreams, it’s like such a huge missing piece that I never even  entertained. Um. So I love that. I wanted to ask you, I have a friend that has recurring dreams. What is that?

MACHIEL: Yeah. So those are important dreams. Recurring dreams is a shows that, uh, that the person hasn’t picked up or worked through the issue that the dream presents. Mhm. So sometimes a recurring dream can be a recurring nightmare, monster is chasing us and we keep running away. And then we feel that something, something we feel chased by something in life. And our response is running. And until we turn around and face it and figure out a better way, uh, this this dream will keep on going. Or a recurring, but a little bit less recurring is, well, I have a recurring dream that I’m locked up in jail, and, uh, it’s horrible, but it’s always in a time that I feel stuck.

JEAN: Yeah. Mhm.

MACHIEL: Uh, and so my stuckness translates to a dream that I’m in jail. And depending on how long I’m in jail usually is an amount of how stuck I feel. Mhm.

ALISON: And I think it’s, because you’re following that Dorman….I think you gotta let him go. hahah

MACHIEL: Or maybe he has the key? hahah

ALISON: That’s right, that’s right.

ALISON: That’s interesting. So you’re able to kind of see that and then figure out on your own life where that really pertains, right?

MACHIEL: Yeah….Well but everyone can and and and sure, I have, uh, paid so much attention that you get a feel for it, but if, uh, instead of asking the classic question, what does this mean? Ask the question, what is what is the experience or what are your feelings?  When you are running through the school, uh, the university to your classroom for the exam and you can’t find it and you start running even faster, and you think I didn’t even prepare for this? What is the what is the feeling? Yeah. Oh, I’m really anxious. I feel being tested, I feel unprepared. Oh, interesting. Is that something that you are at that moment also experienced somewhere in your life?

JEAN: Mhm.

MACHIEL: And it’s almost always the case. It’s almost always even if you didn’t know it, it you reflect on it. Oh yeah I have  this project and I feel tested, I feel I need to deliver. And then you can recognize those feelings in day to day life and start finding different ways of, of relating to it. But so, for the listeners and easy way, uh, what is the experience.

ALISON: Right.

MACHIEL: And then look at what, what your response is in the dream to that experience. I see a crocodile and I get really angry and I kick it. All right, so is that your experience from when you get scared?  And then you can figure out what you want to do with that..

ALISON: Right, right, well…That’s that’s not what I would do, but I totally get there. But that’s interesting because you can have, um, you I think you even talk about it in the book that, the contex, i could do a I could describe something that seems very neutral right now, and yet I may have a lot of emotion on that and that emotion is also very important, like what is the context? And that I think that is such a good tip just in life, like because people will text me and it could be complete miscommunications because it’s more about what is the experience, what is the feeling. So I thought that was very profound. Can I ask maybe this is probably a stupid question. What do you think a dream is? Like aside from being a guidance, are we tapping into in our own head? Are we tapping into like, what is it?

MACHIEL: I think it’s a brilliant question.  Really because it brings, uh, the sense of need, what is a dream? And if you take a dream, uh, whether it’s a nightmare from when you were young or a recent dream, you remember. And for everyone that listens, they can watch us, can go along. But you will notice is that, uh, you are in a dream. So you’re in a world, And in this world, you’re interacting… And Actually, you’re awake in this world– you’re seeing the doorman, you think of course, what did you eat? (HAHAH) – And you go over, you ask, and, uh. But that’s really a curious thing, that your mind is actually awake while you’re asleep. Your body is asleep, your mind is awake.  Your psyche generated a world around it in which you interact actually with this big part, with the substance of your own psyche. Criticalness, uh, whatever. So the question, what is a dream?… And that  brings you quickly to, what the dream is not? A dream is not a message from mystery source X to you, like a lot of traditions say, oh, it’s the message from the divine to you, and you need to translate that message. That is, that is in a letter metaphor, as if it’s a movie. But it’s not..  It seems that that awareness, the deeper awareness generates this world in which you find yourself, in which you live through psychological topics in your life, and you anticipate a certain delivery of your creative talent for tomorrow. So if you’re stuck in your life, you might meet a very upbeat, uh, cab driver who is an embodiment of consciousness of a beatness and getting, uh, getting going again. And if you can relate to that and befriend that state of consciousness and bring it into your day to day life, your habitual way of being changes.

ALISON: Wow.

MACHIEL: So but those are things you do as a as a result of the dream. The dreams are worlds we find ourselves in.  You interact, your mind is awake. And it appears that the dream doesn’t, uh, go away when we open up the eyes. It’s just a stream of consciousness that coexists.

ALISON: Oh.

MACHIEL: So you have waking consciousness, dreaming consciousness. If you daydream, it might come up, at night you might sink in this, and it appears that if you want to get in a flow state, that if you merge these two states that you have a sense of being in the flow.  And just like in dreams, the sense of time starts changing. So you do something and it feels, oh gosh, the hour flew by or ….. so, I don’t know where I wanted to go with that, but, uh…

ALISON: that’s good, it’s so interesting.

MACHIEL: But the question, what is a dream? Is really important because a lot of these techniques are what does the dream mean? But it’s not just that we could say ask about this reality. What does it mean? What does it mean that I talk to the two of you right now? That’s one way of interpreting this. It’s another how can I be with the two of you?. What? What does it feel like? I have a certain experience here, and, uh, certain feelings come up, and, uh, that is, uh, that does something to me, and then I can work that further. But, um, so once you know that the dream is a world there, you can you can relate to the states of consciousness, you can interpret it. You can, uh, uh, feel the states of consciousness. Uh, you can get a sense of where you are. So it opens up to a lot of ways of being with the, with the dream world that can be beneficial for this world as well.

ALISON: That was beautiful. Thank you. I never thought about it like that. Really never thought about that.

JEAN: So great.

MACHIEL: But that was because you asked a really good question.

JEAN: Yeah. Allison, you are.. You ask such great questions.

ALISON: I’m just I’m very curious you know about this.

JEAN: But she is great .. I take so long to formulate my question that ..it’s all right, but…

JEAN:  Okay, if someone is starting to, to do this process, Machiel, what are some pitfalls that they should be aware of so that they can continue and stay with the the process like 1 or 2 pitfalls?

MACHIEL: Well, what I’ve learned over the years is that, uh uh, people  do this method. They do it well. They just choose a something that’s relevant to them. They phrase a nice one question. After dream, write it down and then think, oh gosh, this has nothing to do with my question. And they dismiss it. And, uh, because the dream sometimes is very literal, but sometimes it’s like the one with the woman and the shoes and, uh, it fits. So what is the feeling, the experience? You sometimes have the puzzle a little bit.

MACHIEL: They say, yeah, I believe this method, but I don’t know if it works for me? And, and, and I’ve come to some, some and I try to tell people, uh, show up for yourself. Uh, because actually, uh, you taking your own dream answer serious is a way in which you also show up for yourself and you build, self confidence and trust because the old wise woman within will answer. It’s not even a moral thing. It’s just like you throw a stone in the air, the stone comes down and you can say, well, that’s right, because it went up, it needs to go down. But it just is. And the dream is we live in a responsive universe. That’s why prayer also works. But it doesn’t work in the way, oh, I want a Ferrari.

ALISON: Right?

MACHIEL: You need to learn to pray a little bit, uh, smarter. And, uh, and with this to the first part is, is how do you ask? It’s kind of dream prayer. How do you ask the good question? And a lot of people get there, but then they dismiss the response because the response is not what they what they suspect, or they don’t get it in 30 seconds, just to write it down and, you know, then come back later and say, gosh, you know, I had a weird dream. Can I share it? And then someone listens to it and they can and they say, well, this makes sense. Or  someone thinks I want another job and literally thinks, oh, buy with Coca Cola. Has the marketing director position open, right? It’s extremely seldom that the dream does that.  It’s more helping you get where you need to be.  And if and if people know that, then it works and it works one time, you can do it multiple times. Uh, so it’s the biggest pitfall –  is that people give up too quickly on themselves.

ALISON: That’s the pitfall in life…right?  that’s basically the truth.

JEAN: Throwing in the towel.

ALISON: That’s really interesting because, if you’re talking about the woman with the shoes, someone could just be like, oh, I’m not going to be a shoe salesman. So therefore, that dream means nothing.

MACHIEL: Yeah, yeah, yeah.  right.

ALISON: And it’s really, it’s almost as if you’re describing, art… Do you know? It’s almost like it’s, it’s evocative, like art. You get a feeling from it. You might see something different than I see. But if it’s my dream, really, what resonates with with me?

MACHIEL: And also stay more with the feeling.  Because in her case, you don’t need to be a great dream interpreter to have –  what is the feeling? Or someone offers me something that doesn’t look really appealing to me… But I try it anyway, and then it is a great fit. Okay that if you stay there and you just have to have the feeling journey and then and that’s much easier to get to then– oh yeah, a raven comes back and these sculptures very often.

ALISON: You just had me think of, because the other night I asked, I want to meet my spirit guide. (question from your book.)  And then the little glimpse that I remember is I’m holding a squirrel and I drop it, it’s like and then it’s like a baby and I’m like oh crap, I dropped the squirrel. Right. And I, and I, and I think oh it’s dead. And then I pick it up and I’m going to nurture it more. And this whole time I’ve been thinking, so that means a squirrel is my spirit guide. But now what you’re making me think is, it was the feeling of wanting to nurture it. So maybe the dream is saying you have a spirit guide- good- keep nurturing it and it will be more vibrant for you.

MACHIEL: Yes, yes. Yeah. Beautiful.

ALISON: So it’s the feeling, really. That’s great.

ALISON: Yeah. Yeah.

ALISON: That’s like a breakthrough.

MACHIEL: Beautiful.

ALISON: Yeah yeah, yeah…it’s been bugging me.

MACHIEL: But that’s great that you also kept with it and this part is can help a lot because otherwise people start googling, uh, squirrels and babies. Right. And, and then you get distracted from.

JEAN: Right. Yes.

ALISON: Right…But I think that feeling is so important. Really? You really.. You’re just so… And what I love about this talk is it’s so respectful of dreams and it’s not compartmentalizing them. I feel just a real, like I feel like all open to it, a great respect. So thank you for sharing that.

MACHIEL: You’re welcome.   And an additional step in the work is then usually also do the follow up. So now that you have a little breakthrough … Okay, I want to nurture this more, and then you then also say, oh, spirit guide, I had this sense of, you have always been here, and I’ve always held you close and, uh, uh, and then I picked you up again. And now I want to nurture our relationship. And, uh, I’m going to do the following thing, whatever that is for you. And, uh, um, and maybe, uh, come back in the dream or in this life and give me some sign that you, uh, that you, uh, heard me, uh, did notice me or something. You know, uh, figure out something so that you that you continue to nurture that, uh, that relationship.

ALISON: I just got chills. Yeah, yeah. That’s great. Thank you so much. Thank you so, so much. This has been such an exciting. You’re very low key and peaceful, but you’re very exciting at the same time.

MACHIEL: hahaha

JEAN: And yeah, you could not have written a more meaningful book about dreams and it and it’s very easy to understand. And I love your examples, Machiel, and I thank you for this new, big door opening to help my soul evolve and to enjoy this life more.

MACHIEL: Beautifully said.. Thank you.

ALISON: Thank you so, so much.

JEAN: We wish you all the best.

ALISON: Thank you. Likewise.

MACHIEL: Yes, it was a delight being with the two of you. I love your energy.

ALISON: Thank you. You’re really you’re really so special and have. Have a good night’s sleep.

JEAN: Yes. Sweet dreams, sweet dreams.

ALISON: Bye. I’m. I’m floating around after that interview.

JEAN: I can tell because you weren’t feeling that well before..

ALISON: I wasn’t feeling great before, and now I feel like I’m on a cloud. Yeah. I loved that interview.

JEAN: That was so great. I have such new appreciation for my dreams, and I really can’t wait to get home and.

ALISON: And get to sleep.

JEAN: Get to sleep… Exactly.

ALISON: That’s right. Good night everybody. Yeah, I, um, I loved his demeanor and his expansiveness and about really tapping in. I think that’s a great thing about the feeling.  As opposed to the meaning. You know, I think in today’s world, we look so much for a meaning or a media gratification or this didn’t happen. And he seemed to describe a slower process, that you tap into and you develop a relationship with and that you’re working from meaning of, not from meanings, but from real emotional content, which is so beautiful to me.

JEAN: Yes. Well said. One of my things from listening to him, is that the empowerment that the dream is your own life force. It’s not looking outside of yourself for someone else to give you an answer. This is all within you. And and it just speaks to the incredible, um, brilliance of our soul and how we are so much more than a body bopping around on a planet having crazy dreams. I mean, we are super beings with this amazing ability to tap into infinite intelligence.

ALISON: Well … what Am I going to say after that?

JEAN: Good night. Good night. Allison.

ALISON: Good night, good night. Well, we hope you enjoyed it. And we we really recommend his book. He is fantastic. I’m going to go get the book again. Wait. I want to get the title correct.

JEAN: Oh, it’s right here. Okay, I’ll say the title –  Dream Guidance.

ALISON: Connecting to the soul through dream incubation. And it’s an easy, quick read, but something that you can keep by your bedside and keep referring to. It’s really, really great.

JEAN: And if you don’t know where to start with a question, he gives very wonderful sample questions for you to start out with. So um…This is a great book.

ALISON: All right. Good night. Good night everybody.

JEAN: Good night.

 

Alison : Okay. Hi.

Jean: Oh. Good morning.

Alison : Good morning.

Jean: Let me get my glasses on.

Alison : That’s right. You all ready?

Jean: I’m all ready.

Alison : You’re all prepared?

Jean: I’m ready for this amazing interview. What are you looking at?

Alison : It says remove before use on your glasses. That’s excellent. Did you just like…

Jean: Oh, I just got these.

Alison : Okay, let me help you. So what’s our interview today?

Jean: Okay. We have this amazing nurse who is really taking… She’s on fire..she’s hot. This beautiful nurse ,her name is Hadley Vlahos.. And she talks about hospice care. She wrote a book called The In Between and I loved it. Allison.

Alison : Me too.

Jean: And my friend, um, AnneMarie introduced me to this book and she said, Jean, you’re going to love this book. And I do.

Alison : I do too, and I, I think death and before death and what happens during the death process is something that we don’t talk about enough.

Jean: I was actually thinking the same thing. And and I love that she’s she’s gently easing us into the, the okayness around death that it is a natural process and it’s, um, something we all eventually will, will experience. And it’s, um, she’s really a gifted writer as well.

Alison : Oh, yes. Yeah. And I had resistance to reading it because I was taking care of my mother as she was passing, and you’ve been through the process, too. And, um, I really was afraid to read the book because I thought it would bring up so much for me, or I had resistance. And then I said, well, I’ll give it a chapter. And then I just, I loved it. I loved how she writes about it, and it actually gave me comfort. Um, you know, which is great.

Jean: Yeah. I found it very relatable.

Alison : I can’t wait to hear this interview.

Jean: Yeah, me too..Okay, let’s do it.

Alison : Let’s do it.

Hadley: Nice to meet y’all.

Alison : I am so nice to meet you. Uh, you are just so wonderful. And we loved the, In Between… Yeah.

Hadley:  oh, I’m so glad. Thank you.

Alison : And I, I bought some to give to people.

Hadley: Oh, thank you so much. That means the world to me.

Jean: You did such a beautiful job in writing about such a delicate topic, Hadley. And, um, I really appreciate the book and could absolutely relate to it. And I also got a chuckle when I saw my husband’s name when you were talking to your mother.

Hadley: Oh, I forgot about that. Yes.

Speaker3: You mentioned Alex Trebek, and I thought, I am definitely supposed to be reading this book. So, um, anyway, thank you. We know you’re super busy. Uh, your –  this book has really launched a new, uh.

Alison : Like, discussion.

Jean: So many openings for you.

Hadley: Yeah, it definitely has. It’s. Yeah, it’s a whole new world.

Alison : That’s great. Your personality really comes across in this book, but could you tell us a little bit about how you got into hospice care because you were, uh, working in the ER, right?

Hadley: Yeah, So I did a year long internship in the hospital where I went to all different areas of the hospital, but they mostly had me in the ER, and then from there, after that year long, um, internship where I did a night shift, uh, I applied for a day shift job and I didn’t get it. And I had my son, who was so young and, um, I went to my manager and said, you know, how long do you think until I could get moved to day shift? This is really hard for me, finding childcare in the middle of the night. And, um, they said, you know, it could be three years. And I said, I can’t, I can’t do that. So I took a job in the nursing home as a manager, and that is where I really saw hospice patients for the first time. We didn’t really learn about it in school, but we had hospice patients in the nursing home. So I would watch the hospice nurses come in and sit one on one with the patients. And I’m like, I did not know that there was a type of nursing where you could be one on one with patients, and also they would talk to me about more than just their medications and more than just what we were doing for them. To them, honestly, they would tell me about how their family was doing and just a really holistic viewpoint. And I was like, oh, I don’t know what kind of nursing this is, but I want to try this instead and haven’t looked back. That was eight years ago.

Alison : Wow. And the switch from going from, um, caregiving and helping people get better to helping people let go. What was that switch like?

Hadley: That was really difficult for me, because nursing school really teaches you to just fix, fix, fix. And I had to really, um, adjust my thinking to that, instead saying, how can I make them comfortable? And it really is a totally different mindset, to the point where I don’t think I could ever go back to the hospital, because if someone was like near the end of their life, they wanted ice cream, I’d be like, okay, let’s do it, you know?

Jean: Right. Well, you make you, um, really drive that point home in your book that, um, it is about comfort. Is that what you would say? What would you actually say, Hadley, hospice is all about?

Hadley: I actually would say comfort is a big one, but I think that it’s finding, uh, life at the end of life. And I know a lot of people seem to think it a lot of it’s about death. But as you all know, even in the book, it’s less than half a page is usually the death part of it. Um, for each patient, because it’s such a small part of the time that I’m spending with these patients, I really get to see a lot of a lot of life with them and a lot of good quality of life.

Jean: Yeah.

Jean: One of my favorite quotes that you say, well, I have many favorite quotes, but one of them is, um, where you say, Hadley, that being a hospice nurse, you really feel alive.

Hadley: Yeah.

Jean: And why do you think that?

Hadley: I think I get this constant reminder that I’m going to be in those shoes, that bed one day. And I think it’s so easy for people to get caught up in their day to day and their routines, and to forget that one day we’re going to die until it’s in your face. You know, for me, it’s in my face every day because of my job. But for many people, it’s not in their face until they’re losing a loved one. And then all of a sudden we get this wake up call of, oh, that’s going to be me one day, and I need to, i need to live my life. I need to make sure that I’m doing the things that I’m supposed to be doing, like telling people how much I love them and making sure that I’m happy and doing the things I want to be doing. But that’s where I found a lot of life. Is that constant reminder for me that one day I’m going to be in that hospital bed.

Alison : Right when I found it, I took care of my.. We all know about Jean and Alex, and I took care of my mother when she was passing, and it was really hard, hard, really, really hard. And I was afraid to read your book because I thought it was going to bring up, um, a lot of stuff for me, you know? But actually, I found it so comforting. Wow, I feel very emotional. I found it very comforting, um, because she was saying things like, where are all those people going on that escalator? And, you know, grandma told me this today, and I found that so beautiful. So those stories of seeing people that’s consistent for you, right?

Hadley: Yeah, it doesn’t matter what their background is or their beliefs, religious beliefs, no religious beliefs, no matter what it is. And I hear that a lot, or they say that they’re packing bags or there’s a train. And the way I interpret that is that whatever they’re hearing, seeing, knowing about, they don’t we don’t necessarily have the language or the knowledge here on earth to interpret that. So they’re using what’s closest to such as an escalator or a train. Like they they’re going on a trip is what they say, because that’s the only language I think we have to try to interpret what’s going on, because everything will have this like underlying travel theme, but they’ll be but they’ll be different in that way. Or someone says, uh, you know, I need to pack a bag. And I’m like, do you, do you need a bag? And they’ll say, no, I guess I don’t.

Alison : Right, I guess I have everything I need. Um, is there such a thing as, like, I found it very profound. And, uh, your story about Babette, um, because you had felt. And that’s how I felt about my mother. I should have done more. It should have been different. I should have, like, been playing soft music, and it just didn’t happen that way,  and I thought it was going to. So, um, is there is there really now, in hindsight, such a thing as a good passing or a bad passing?

Hadley: I don’t think so. I think that everything happens as it should for, for whatever reason that is. Um, I think it’s easy, though, for me to say, as a nurse with goals, I want certain things to happen for my patients, so of course I can feel like some are better than the other. But at the end of the day, I say, you know, it’s out of my hands. And and this happened for whatever reason it did. And sometimes I’ll learn about it, um, later. Such as, i remember one actually just very recently that a daughter was coming and I really felt like I was like, come on. Like I knew it was going to be very close to her making it. And I was very anxious about it. And, um, she did not make it by like 20 minutes. And of course, in my mind as a nurse, I’m like. Uh, you know, I really wanted her to make it. And should I have called her a day sooner? Because it was one where she was trying to get off work, and so she was like, please call me. This is how long? And so, of course, as a nurse, I’m like, oh gosh, I should have called the day before. But she couldn’t take off like a week and that can be hard to predict. And then at the funeral, she was like, hey, like, you know, I’ve been doing stuff at the funeral this week. Um, I just want to let you know, uh, I think this is how it’s supposed to happen. I really don’t think I could have handled watching her pass. And I was like, okay. And it made me feel better. So, you know, that underlying thing of, like, everything happens as it should, right?

Jean: Right.

Jean: Yeah. That’s such a great thing to remember all the time. So, Hadley, uh, you know, I sense that your connection with your patients is what really is so important to letting them let go and release this physical body and move into the next dimension, if you will. So for you personally, how do you, kind of soothe yourself or not take it so personally. Um, that you get so connected with these beings and you’re giving your heart and your love. Uh, and then you have to… Oh, you know, moving on to the next. I mean, can you talk about that a little bit?

Hadley: Yeah, it can definitely be very difficult for sure. Um, but I think it helps that I’m like, oh, I’m going to see them again one day. And I do truly believe that. So that definitely is more like the see you later instead of goodbye. But it definitely can be difficult whenever you have a really close patient and then you have to just go see someone new. Uh, the good thing about hospice, though, um, especially whenever you do home based care, is that you do get time in the car to decompress. I have a little playlist that I’ll listen to after a patient passes. And, um, that is really nice, as opposed to when you’re in the hospital or really any other setting where you’re going from room to room and you’re immediately usually I’ll get some time and, you know, I’m out here in the country so I can get up to 30 minutes sometimes between patients to kind of decompress, which helps a lot.

Alison : Where are you? Where are you located?

Hadley: I’m, um, outside of New Orleans.

Alison : Oh, excellent. Because I thought. I thought you were closer to the East Coast, but New Orleans. I love New Orleans. Yeah.

Hadley: Me, too.

Alison : Yeah, it’s it’s beautiful.

Alison : It’s so beautiful there. And, um, you have so many different people in this book. Um, have you treated anyone else similar to Albert? (a person living on the streets).

Hadley: Yes, I have some right now. Um, but it’s pretty rare. Usually they will agree to go into a nursing home if we can get them. Patients who are homeless into a nursing home. Um, I had one recently, though, where it was like we meet at the same bench at the same time every week. And I asked my manager, I was like, what happens when they don’t show up? Or if they don’t show up? She said, we’re going to cross that bridge when we come to it. I’m like, okay, so I get nervous every single week, but so far so good. Um, but yeah, that we, we have we have patients like that. It’s always, um,  it’s always challenging, but it reminds me to get out of autopilot, which I think we can all do in our jobs and, um, to, to really make sure that I’m doing things the correct way. And then that also helps with all of my patients.

Alison : Right? Yeah. Right.

Jean: So it I feel like I’ve taken so much, um, pearls of wisdom from your book, Hadley. And can you share 1 or 2 of your favorite patients that have really imprinted something that’s very meaningful to you?

Hadley: Yeah. Um, definitely. Elizabeth, she says to me,  “Eat the cake.” She matters, you know a lot to me. And I’ve seen so many eat the cake tattoos, which is really cool.

Jean: Um, can you tell us about Elizabeth for our audience?

Hadley: Of course. Yeah.  I had a patient who I call Elizabeth, who was younger for a hospice patient in her 40s, and she had lung cancer, but we did not know why. She was like the picture of health. Yoga teacher, um, never smoked a cigarette. Um, and she was dying on hospice, and she just stopped me one day, i was just sitting there with her and said, you know, Hadley, I would love to give you some advice because I see a lot of myself in you. Um, and I really have been sitting here just thinking about my life, and I really wish I would have just eaten the cake. And I wish I would have spent more time with my friends and gone to the beach and not cared what my stomach looked like, and gone to dinners. And, um, what was so significant to me about that was that, um, it it was so true because she ended up dying with just me there. And another one of my coworkers, um, she she did not have her family and friends around her because she had been so obsessed, um, from her words, with just her body image. And it was really eye opening to me whenever I realized that I had been doing that, I had been skipping out on on certain bonding activities because I was so self conscious, and it really changed my life in a really significant way. And I definitely believe that Elizabeth is is looking down and is happy that her, that she impacted so many people in such a big way. Um, that’s been really important to me. And then, um, Carl in my book was like a grandfather to me.  And, um, we had a weird way of going about it.

Hadley: He ended up finding out that I was a single mom, and I just said, you know, I don’t I don’t have time to keep up with the news, with sports and with whatever’s going on in the world. And he’s like, well, I just lie here in bed all day, you know? That’s all I have time to do. So he would start telling me what’s going on in the world and in sports world. And then he started writing down these little notes for me because he would say, every time you leave, I forget to tell you something I wanted to tell you. So I just start writing them down so I’d come give me my little notes. And, um, I didn’t think much of it, uh, at the time it was happening, and I was still pretty new in my career. Just was like something that had developed between the two of us. And then, um, right before he died, he had told me, um, thank you for giving me something to look forward to- instead of death. And that was the moment that I was like, oh, this is what I’m going to do for the rest of my life. Like, this is my calling. This is why I am here. And I think of him so often, whenever I feel like I, I’m not doing much when I just go in there and I’m just taking their vital signs and I’m just like, okay, are you okay on medications? And it just reminds me of just being here and making sure that I’m providing a positive presence and an uplifting presence can, and just talking to them and listening can be doing more than I realize it is.

Alison : That’s a that’s amazing. Um, what do you think are some questions if someone that that our listeners know is in hospice, what are some questions that are important to ask a hospice person or what are some like what how do you prepare for this?

Hadley: Yeah, it can definitely. Be difficult. Um, I would say if you are in hospice, um, nothing is off limits. Um, and don’t be afraid to talk to your hospice nurse, to the hospice social worker. If you are encountering difficulties with the family, because we are so used to that and we we don’t mind at all having conversations and helping to facilitate that. Um, I think people sometimes feel like, oh, I don’t want people to think like, my family’s crazy. Um, I have learned that there is no such thing as a normal family. Like there is absolutely…

Alison : That is so true.

Hadley: There is no Such thing. So we we don’t mind. A big thing that I see hospice patients deal with is that they go to talk to their family and friends about their death, and they start that conversation and out of a place of love, 100% the family or friends will stop them and say, oh my gosh, we don’t need to talk about that. You know, you’re going to get better. You’re going to beat this. They are trying to be positive, and I know it’s coming from a place of love, but my hospice patients will tell me that they feel like they can’t talk to anyone about what they’re going through, and they sometimes just want to be able to express, you know, hey, when I do die, please know how much I love you. And whenever people hear, oh, when I die, they immediately want to be like, oh, that’s not positive. That’s not going to happen. Um, but it’s doing more harm than good. Yeah. And, um, I wish people realized that because I think everyone’s coming from a place of, like, good. Right? Even though it is, you know, you should just let that person tell you what they want to tell you. And if they want to talk about death, to just let them talk about death.

Jean: Right.

Alison : That’s such a good point. This society doesn’t do that. That’s what Jean and I were talking about. This society just makes believe we’re born and like, everything’s about birth.

Jean: We can’t even talk about aging. We can’t talk about…

Alison : Menopause, you know?

Jean: Yeah. You know, I, I want to give a shout out to your profession, Hadley. Because when when Alex passed away, um, I was one of those people that was like, you know, the numbers can change. You’re going to get stronger. You know, people love you. We’re getting so many prayers. You know, it’s going to… And I now, in retrospect, I think that it was hard for Alex to really say to me. I’m really moving in a different direction than you want me to. And it took our hospice nurse who was amazing. Um, to to come into the kitchen and say, you know what, Jean? I was talking to Alex, and he is he’s ready to let go of this physical form. And I had such, I had such a feeling of surrender that there was really it was in God’s hands, if you will. It was not my life, this was Alex’s life, not mine, to dictate and make it about me. Um, me feeling you can do it like that, that had its time for a little bit, but, um, his course of his soul expression here on planet Earth had its own agenda. And I had to really become selfless and just go, i have to let this hospice nurse be with her and not… And I was never against, you know, we it was very short the time that the hospice nurse was with us but that surrender. And then once I really did that there was this peace that passes all understanding. As for me anyway. And, um. Your profession is is such a blessing and it’s not for everyone, you know, you are a chosen few. Um, and so it’s such an honor to talk and with you about this very delicate and important conversation about death.

Alison : Totally. You know, and I think having children. Do you talk to your children about what you do?

Hadley: Yeah. They know, um, they will talk about death very normally. I actually got a call from Brody, who’s now eleven and in school, about a year ago that, um, he had told people in class, um, my mommy went and saw a dead person last night, and I was like, well, I did. I was at the dinner table and I got a call that someone died, and I said, someone died, I’m leaving. And, um, I don’t think too much of it, to be honest. And, um, I said, that is what happened. I’m in hospice nurse, and I said, I’m not going to tell him to not say that. Um, you know, was it upsetting anyone? I mean, that’s that’s what I do for work. Um, and I’m okay with him doing that. He actually lost his dad’s dad, so his grandfather about six months ago, and I was curious how he would handle it with being the first one that he can at least remember. And, um, he said, you know, I think that he I’m going to see him again. And I said, I agree. Um, he said, I think that I can feel him with me sometimes. And I said, I think so, I definitely do. And he said, can I get a picture of him for my room? And I said, absolutely, I’ll do that today. And he said, okay. And then he called his grandmother, you know, his wife, and said, can we go to church? Which is something she likes to do. Can I go with you this Sunday? And she said, yes. And  that’s been the extent of it. He’s done really, really well. I’ve been really proud of him.

Alison : That’s, that’s really amazing. I think teaching, you know, we have older children and I try to talking with them when my mom was back here passing, my kids were in back here running around

Speaker4: Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, there’s no. Way to keep them out, you know? Yeah, it’s it’s, I think it’s an important thing to do. How how has all of this changed your view spiritually? And what do you think happens when they close their eyes and their heart stops? What do you think happens?

Hadley: Yeah. So I consider myself to be spiritual. And, um, I like religion. I think that it can provide a guidebook for like how to live a good life. I just like personally haven’t found a religion that I’m like, oh yeah, that’s that’s me. So I just say that I’m spiritual. I, um, believe that there is some other place that we go that there is like something beyond us, just from what I have experienced, um, with people such as seeing their deceased loved ones and for me, something that’s really significant for even people who don’t, um, believe in anything is that at the end of life, there’s up to a minute between breaths. So scientifically if it was no there’s no spiritual realm, there’s no like feeling of anything, um, then no one would know that someone died until a minute after they’ve actually taken their last breath because, then the next breath never comes and they’re like, oh, they died a minute ago. But being in the room with so many people as they’ve taken that last breath, I have never, ever, ever once not had a family member say that was their last breath immediately and been correct.  Um, you know, and I know too, you can feel it, you know, whenever someone takes their last breath, um, which I think is really interesting, um, you can just feel that there, that that they’re not there anymore. Um, so I don’t really know what exactly happens. And I’ve had to just kind of be comfortable with that of, like, I think something happens, but I’ll figure it out one day?

Alison : I agree, I totally agree, but I love that I think people look to people like you, you know, for that, which is interesting. Is that is that good or is that a pressure or like what? How do you feel about the impact you’re having right now?

Hadley: I actually, when I was writing the book, went back and forth. My editor love her so much. Um, so I was raised in the Deep South, raised very religious, and, um, she wanted me to put that I was spiritual and not religious in the conclusion, which I did. And, um, I said, they’re going to like, come for me, like, they’re gonna everyone’s gonna one star my book. Like, I can’t do it. I can’t do it. Just leave it out. And she’s like, no, because people are gonna put down the book and they’re gonna have questions. You have to. You have to just own it. Just be yourself. The amount of people who have come to me and said, thank you so much. Thank you for putting that. Thank you for saying, because I’ve felt I’ve also was raised religious and I fear saying, you know, maybe I’m not anymore, but maybe that doesn’t mean that I’m an atheist. Maybe it means that I can just be spiritual and I can still have these beliefs without necessarily agreeing with some of the religious trauma that I have. And, um, it’s been overwhelming positive. But I was very, very, very scared about putting that.

Alison : I bet. Yeah.

Jean: I mean, you know, your book, you you’ve shared so much about your life, Hadley. You know, it’s not easy to. Yeah. And then to have this book be accepted at such a level.  Like here you go from small town, hospice nurse and I’m going to share my stories and, and, uh, where this book has really opened your life to such a public platform.  How do you feel? Do you feel different about that now? Do your children?

Alison : Do you Personally feel different? Yeah.

Hadley: Yeah, it’s a little bit. I was actually just talking to my therapist about this this morning that, um. Yeah, it is, it’s been, um, it’s it has been sometimes I kind of want to, like, run back to that comfort of, you know, um, that. But I feel like from doing my book and speaking tour recently and getting to meet hundreds of people, that it is having a really positive impact. But it can be scary to be so out there and have so many people, um, kind of looking at me because I did have a little comfort zone of just taking care of my patients and, you know, going home and not going to the grocery store and having people stop me. And it’s it’s been an adjustment, but obviously it’s been a very positive one. And my therapist is like, we’re going to get through this. We’ve been through it. We’re getting through it as long as you want to. And I was like, I think it’s positive. She’s like, okay, that’s right.

Alison : That’s right.  Yeah, the universe has plans for us sometimes that we can’t even imagine. And yeah, put yourself in a place and you’re like, wow, like…

Jean: oh my gosh.

Alison : Well, it’s the Talking Heads…(the song) How did I get here? You know?

Jean: Exactly right. And you’re communicating such a beautiful message, Hadley. And it certainly comes from such a beautiful soul…yours.

Hadley: Thank you.

Jean: And, um, you know, we wish you all the best.

Alison : You’re just so lovely and really, you know, and and I heard this is becoming a series?

Hadley: Yes. NBC Universal is turning it into a scripted series. And I’m super excited. We have a great producer on board that hasn’t been announced yet, and I’m an executive producer, and I’m excited for it. I think that they’re going to really, uh, display it in the correct light. I feel like we don’t really see peaceful deaths on TV at all. And, um, I’m really excited for people to see that side.

Alison : It’s really great, you know? You know, Touched by an Angel affected a lot of people. And it went on for years because I think people need, especially in these days, hope. And I think you’ve given people a different way to view something that has been so deemed as scary or uncomfortable. So you really are, um, you know, an angel walking around.

Hadley: Thank you.

Alison : You’re doing the good work. You’re a champion. Thank you so much.

Hadley: Thank you, I appreciate that.

Alison : And I love this room that you redecorated.

Hadley: Oh thank you.

Alison : I saw it on Instagram. I’m like oh… Yeah she’s got another career happening!

Hadley:  I have a really good friend, Lexi from social media. And she, uh, she’ll send me mockups on stuff, so I can’t take too much credit for that.

Alison : Well, you’re wearing it. Well, my friend, uh.

Hadley: Thank you.

Jean: Uh, you deserve everything that’s really beautiful in this world.

Alison : Thank you so much for talking with us.

Hadley: Thank you.

Alison : Have a beautiful day.

Hadley: Yes, thanks. Bye bye.

Alison : Oh my gosh. She is an like an angel.

Jean: If you who else would you want as a stranger to be by b your bedside when you are taking your last breath? I mean, yes, your loved ones, that’s true, but then next would be Hadley, Nurse Hadley.

Alison : And I think all hospices, like you brought up all hospice nurses , really come with something special.

Jean: Right. And and because that time, that that very in-between time, as Nurse Hadley puts it, uh, is so, it’s so special or vulnerable. Extraordinary. I mean, it’s not just your day to day, but…  you know, these these nurses that that help bridge the physical life to the spiritual life are really, um, doing magnanimous work.

Alison : And I really appreciated what you shared about about Alex. And because I think so many times, people go through something like this or a trauma, and they can’t picture anyone else as having, yeah, problems with it or challenges. And so I think it’s really great to read Hadley’s book and to begin a talk, begin to talk about this in a discussion about this, because death is very important.

Jean: It is. I don’t know where I read this quote, but or this statement, but someone said it’s the most, the biggest spiritual experience anyone has. And when you think about it, it’s so true. And , um, I’m glad that we’re all opening up more and more to the spiritual, right, not just the physical.

Alison : We hope you found this, uh, comforting. And really, we can’t recommend the In-Between more. It’s a beautiful, beautiful book. And a glimpse into something that we don’t often have the opportunity to see.

Jean: No, we don’t give a lot of time and attention to this very reverent topic. So thank you everyone.

Alison : Have a great day.

Jean: I hope you …  Eat the cake.

Alison : Yes, Let’s go do that.  I love that.

Jean: What’s your favorite cake?

Alison : Oh well, I like all of them. Now I’m moving into sort of like a lemon. Um, uh, orange. I’m moving into those because I’m not doing as much chocolate. What about you?

Jean: I’m a big coconut fan.

Alison : Oh, yes.

Jean: and I also love German chocolate cake.

Alison : I know you do.

Jean: Which Alex loved also.

Alison : I know he loved it. Well, have a great day… we have to eat cake now. Okay, bye.

ALISON:Okay. Come on in.

JEAN: There we are.

ALISON: Here we are.

JEAN: This is one of my favorite things to do.

ALISON: Sit together, jammed up into a microphone and having fun, right?

JEAN: Yes.

ALISON: Just hanging out. We love it. How was .your day?

JEAN: My day was busy. I spoke to a lot of people today, and, uh. But it was a great day.

ALISON: It was. And I started Tai Chi today.

JEAN: You did? that’s right.

ALISON: Yes. And it, um. You know, it looks so easy, and the guy turned around and he goes, “Alison, how did you do?” And I just said to him, I’m glad you weren’t watching. And the guy starts laughing. Yeah, because that is the truth. I’ll get better.

JEAN: And I love that you’re doing that. You’re really doing some unique things that that you have, not unique, but things that you haven’t been doing all your life.

ALISON: It’s stuff that’s starting with T – tap and tai chi.

JEAN: Right…well, go you!

ALISON: I’m gonna be a twirling dervish next.

JEAN: You’ll be a twirling top.

ALISON: That’s correct. So we have a wonderful interview today.

JEAN: We do. We have Emily Grodin.

ALISON: And her mom, Valerie.

ALISON: Emily is an incredible poet. And the two of them wrote a book called, “I Have Been Buried Under Years of Dust- a memoir of autism and hope”. Emily is on the on the autism spectrum.

JEAN: Right. And her mother, Valerie, and her dad, Tom, really championed her to, um, help her speak.

ALISON: Right. And they use, um, they use a technique called facilitated communication. So there’s a woman sitting with Emily, and her name was Stephanie, i think when we talked… Was that right?

JEAN: I don’t remember her name, but she was very nice. Right?

ALISON: She was very nice…you’ll hear her be introduced. And then when Emily responds to her questions, you’re going to hear like a robotic Siri, like, um, computer voice. Because what Emily is doing is typing and then it speaks back. Right?

JEAN: Right. And what a great device that has really opened up Emily’s life to this creative expression of writing. And she she’s actually writing a screenplay.

ALISON: Yeah. That’s right. And her poetry I found so moving and so, um, deep, meaningful, deep and meaningful and so accessible for, for so many people. So we think you’re going to love this interview.

JEAN: We know you’re going to love it.

ALISON: Ohhh…

JEAN: We do.

ALISON: Being definite.

JEAN: Such a treat… Valerie.

ALISON: We read your book and it’s really amazing. Emily, you are such a beautiful writer.

VALERIE: Hello.. And Stephanie Lewis is with Emily. I should introduce Stephanie. Stephanie, stick your head in there.

STEPHANIE: Hi. That’s me. Hi. How are you?

JEAN: I just first want to say that, um… So, I’m Jean, and this is Alison, and, um. your story is amazing and I think it brings such hope to.. It’s just another huge beacon of hope for people to know that this modality of communicating is out there…

VALERIE: Right, yeah.

ALISON: And I thought what was amazing was even if, uh, right now I feel like the world needs more hope. And I feel that your book communicates that in a larger spectrum- that the two of you, uh, really never gave up.

VALERIE: Well, and Tom too, are the three of us.

ALISON: Yes. I’m sorry.

VALERIE: Yes, Tom was such a big part of this, too. Because he, you know, he sort of brought me back when I was sort of, you know, careening out of control a little bit. I mean, it was, you know, there was a balance to it, you know, I mean, Emily, Emily went through so much. I mean, the child was subjected to one therapy after another. And she never complained. She never, you know, pushed back. She just sort of went along with things, you know, and and on our part, you know, was constantly searching for things that would help her because, you know, it wasn’t to normalize her. It was just to help her have access to the world. And I think that’s one of the things that I kind of want people to understand, because some of the comments that have been written about me, um, in on some platforms has been that I was trying to make her quote unquote normal, but what was not the case… I mean, I love Emily as exactly as Emily is, for who she is, in every aspect about her. I mean, there’s not anything I don’t love about my daughter, but, you know, I understood the challenges that the world presents. And I really was just trying to, um, make her better able to access the world, um, given who she is. And I think any parent does that. I mean, all of our kids have. I mean, everybody has their limitations. I have my limitations. You know? I mean, you try to maximize what you can, so that you can have a good life, you know? And that’s all I was really trying to do for her.

ALISON: I never felt that reading the book. I have to be honest with you. I actually just, we both have two children, and they’re just around…. Emily, how old are you right now? is that okay to ask? I’ve never asked a woman their age, but how old are you, Emily?

STEPHANIE: 29. Oh, sorry. I have her volume super low. 29 there.

EMILY: 29.

ALISON: Wow – so you’ve been able to find this opening for yourself to communicate, Emily, for the past five years?

EMILY: That’s right.

ALISON: Very nice…And your poems, um, I was so moved by your poems. Some of them… see, I’m going to get teary eyed… Some of them truly expressed things that I have felt in my life. And I thought the universality of them was so moving. How long does it take you to write a poem? Does it just flow out of you quickly, or is it something that you spend a lot of time with?

EMILY: They come quickly. I would usually complete in an hour.

ALISON: That is shocking…that’s like you are a muse.

VALERIE: You know, it’s interesting…that’s how poets are, though, you know, I mean, Paul Simon, I don’t know if you ever saw that that exhibit up at the Skirball about Paul Simon, but he would go to a Chinese restaurant and just write down on a napkin. And that’s really like Emily. I mean, she just it just comes to her. It’s really extraordinary. Um, she wrote a few weeks ago, we were out in the sun too much, and she got a terrible sunburn on her feet, of all places… The top feet, the worst. She wrote the funniest poem,just like that about the sunburn. She gets moved. I mean, it really is amazing. It’s just a total gift.

ALISON: Yeah.

VALERIE: A gift, isn’t it, Emmy?

EMILY: It is.

JEAN: So Valerie, can you tell me, um, what was your inspiration to write a book after you saw that Emily was really opening up to being able to communicate, it was like you pulled the lid off, right? I love the title – “I have been buried under years of dust.” I love the title. I know that Emily said those exact words to you…. And so what was your intention?

VALERIE: Well initially, my intention was to publish Emily’s writings and her poetry. And that’s how initially we approached various, um, agents and unfortunately, none of them or fortunately, I suppose, because we ended up with this great book. Um, they felt that the writings of an individual with autism would not be a sell, and nobody wanted to get involved with it. So I contacted some people that were pretty well known, actually, in the business, and they said, oh, what you should do is you should just get Emily published in as many places as you can, and then eventually her name will be known. But there was one agent, who I was referred to, who read Emily’s work, and he went, “oh my God. You know, this is incredible stuff.” But even more incredible, is the story of how you got there. And he said, I think that’s the story that should be told. And so we talked about it and we discussed it, and we figured a way to propose it. But my main proviso was that her work had to be included throughout the book. And that’s how the reflections came up. So it was, you know, that’s how her work is integrated, because that was important. People needed to hear her voice. It wasn’t just the back story of how we got there, which I think is the backdrop to me. It’s the backdrop, you know, all the work, everything that happened. It’s the predicate, you know, to what actually was developed. And I think it’s important, but more important, is that her words come out and that the light be shown on her, because that was my initial original intent. It wasn’t about me and it wasn’t about Tom. It was about her. And, um, you know, I mean, really, I have to be honest, and I’ve shared this with many people before, is that after so many years of people not recognizing Emily’s strengths and just how bright she was and how much she had to contribute, I wanted a light to shine very brightly on her, very brightly on her. And that’s why this, that’s what was my goal. I mean, that was my goal always. And so we accomplished that. I mean, you know, once Emily wrote those first words were so profound — “I had been buried under years of dust.” I mean, who writes that? Who says that the first time coming out of their mouth? And the interesting thing about Emily was that, you know, this methodology of communicating with facilitated communication or supported typing, whatever you want to call it. Um, what was interesting about it for her was that it wasn’t just a matter of communicating wants and desires, she could kind of do that, but it was full thoughts and very lyrical thoughts and beautifully put and so expressive and perfect typing. Perfect spelling. Uh, you know, everything in that book, that’s hers. We do have a note at the end, is all original writing. There’s no editing to any of that. Um, which is really important because here’s a person who did not communicate verbally and who really never, never wrote because she because they did not, were unable to measure her capacity in many ways. Um, you know, our testing of individuals is typically with verbal responses. And so it was hard to measure, I think, for people people knew that she was bright because she, uh, Emily was, you know, so responsive and and so capable nonverbally. I mean, her nonverbal, her level of nonverbal communication was unbelievable. And her way to accomplish things was nonverbal. And her way to manipulate was really very clear to people. But in terms of her expectations of her writings, she had, you know, she her she was never she never wrote a story. She never wrote an essay. She never did any of that all the way through school. Um, her testing was done really by multiple choice… Yes. No, that sort of thing. Yeah.

ALISON: What’s interesting is that it made me realize, uh, what a powerful listener you are Emily, you were listening, I guess, to be able to absorb and write in such a way, listening to teachers and people for many years and being able to to to take that in. I found that moving because I think so many times, unless people, um, I feel like sometimes people sell other people short in their daily lives. And you are such a lesson that to me that, um, people that are different than me, people that might–like senior citizens, you know, like my, my grandmother reached a point and sometimes people would think she couldn’t hear anything. I knew she was hearing every single thing because she was communicating with me, and I found that very profound for you, Emily. In your classes now, are you still in, did you graduate college? Are you still at, um, Santa Monica College?

EMILY: Still at a local school.

ALISON: Where do you see yourself in in 5 or 10 years, Emily? What what do you think about that? Like in terms of your future, where would you like to be in 5 or 10 years?

EMILY: I would like to have a degree and I know I will always be writing. Maybe screenwriting next.

ALISON: Wow, that would be great. I would love that. I would love to read one of your scripts.

VALERIE: Yeah. She’s, uh, she’s kind of been working on something, so. Yeah. That and continued poetry. Yeah. I mean, shout out to Valley College. She’s she’s going to Valley College now and she has been for a while and um, Los Angeles Valley College and. Yeah. So she’s going to just get her preliminary stuff out of the way. She’s a few more courses to go, and then we’ve got to figure out what the next steps are going to be.

JEAN: So Valerie, I know that your friends with the Asner’s. Yes, we did a little article on them on insidewink. And can you tell me how you got, uh, introduced to to the Ed Asner Family Center and how that helped you or if it did?

VALERIE: They had a camp that I sort of learned about through some friends. And then when they moved here into Reseda, I heard about the center and I went to see it, and I didn’t know Matt or Nava personally before that. But after we went over there and we we saw what a beautiful, incredible setting it was. Um, and the place is absolutely gorgeous and the types of programming that they were offering and that it appealed to, they had programming actually, for older individuals. It wasn’t just for, um, children. They were offering activities. They were offering um, uh, acting and hooking up with some with a miracle project and other acting classes and social activities. There was drumming. There were other things. And so that’s how, you know, we got started with them and we were with them. We but we didn’t start until right before the beginning of 2019, you know. So it went through until the pandemic and there were some great parties. I mean, there was a great Christmas party, I mean, an unbelievable Christmas party. And people came from all over, you know, the South, the South area, from Los Angeles, even people from the West side who don’t ever want to come into the valley, we’re coming into the valley because it was such a great party and they had food trucks and everything.

VALERIE: So that’s how I really met them. I knew Nava’s story, I knew the back story of Nava, and I knew of Ed Asner, and I knew, you know, through some professional connections. But that’s how really how I met them was really when Emily and I first went over there and she participated in their activities, and then we got to know them better and better, you know, as we went along and, and are really delighted to be part of their circle. Um, honestly, I mean they are fantastic advocates and the environment is beautiful and. Emily is now participating, there’s actually – they have the autism spectrum dating or something, you know, for kids on the spectrum to learn how to kind of socialize and to date and that sort of thing. So that’s a really nice thing for Emily. And that’s, you know, it’s hard. The activities for older individuals are fewer and far between or ones that are eaningful. And so they’re providing that opportunity. And I think it’s smart of them to recognize that kids grow up, you know?

ALISON: How long did it take you to write the book… Like how long was it, how many years was the process?

VALERIE: It was a two year process.

ALISON: I couldn’t put it down.

VALERIE: Oh, good. I’m glad you liked it.

ALISON: Really..you know, we get a lot of things to read and and talk to people, and you try to at least be familiar with it. And I have to tell you, I finished it in a day. I could not put it down. My husband’s like, are you going to eat dinner? I was like, no, no, she’s going to Ireland. I got to get through the Ireland part. You know, it just was really, really…it just made me cry.

VALERIE: Yeah. The Ireland part was crazy. I have pictures, we have pictures. Um, there’s some pictures on the website. I know when, um, Fox LA did the, um, the piece with Michaela Pereira, they had the picture of Emily actually kissing the the castle, which was the craziest thing. I mean, if you’ve been there, you know, it’s a difficult place to, it’s difficult to kiss that stone anyway, and probably isn’t the healthiest thing in the world but we couldn’t do it, because of the tour group coming in from the ship, the tour, the cruise ship that came in on the west coast of Ireland.

ALISON: So I liked your improv, like kiss over here, kiss this wall. And you know what? I believe that it’s all connected anyway. So, you know, make the castle the stone… Like kiss this brick, that brick. I thought that was great. I loved your, um, sort of like… All right, this will do.

VALERIE: Desperate, desperate measures.

ALISON: Right? We’ve all we’ve all been there. I think that was pretty great to improvise. Yeah., I was also very moved by what you wrote, Emily… Emily writes a section about, um, her parents that is so moving to me, and I want to read it to my kids and say, pick up a pen. It really was so beautiful, emily, what you wrote about about your parents. That was a beautiful, beautiful moment in the book.

EMILY: Thank you. And earlier talking about being a good listener. My parents, they really knew I was taking it all and grateful for that.

JEAN: Yeah, I love that you say that, Emily. I think it’s such a poignant and powerful acknowledgement –it’s that giving and receiving are one. That your parents saw you, saw beyond your challenge and um, and just never gave up. But they actually saw you… The truth of you. That’s one of the reasons why Allison and I talked about naming our website inside Wink. It’s the love, the goodness within everyone that comes out and, um, and we all need to do that for each other. And you know, I know your parents, um, that’s such, such a powerful act of love. And I’m so inspired by both of you. I’m going to start crying.

VALERIE: Thank you so much. Thank you.

ALISON: So beautiful. And it’s really that this book is a love story. And, uh, we really appreciate you being here, and I’m so happy that you two are being honored together.

VALERIE: Thank you. Yeah.

Speaker3: Valeie, is there anything you want to say before end?

ALISON: Or Emily?

JEAN: Or Emily, Yes of course…

VALERIE: There’s so much to say, I mean, we hope certainly that people, you know, will understand the importance of just never giving up and understand that, you know, just because a child each reaches that magical age of, of so-called maturity or 18, doesn’t change anything. I mean, there’s still a child, an individual who needs, could need possibly some more pushing and assistance. And I know it’s considered a magical date by many people and many parents of kids with challenges. But, you know, like you continue to grow and develop. I mean, I’ve always said to people, look, I feel like I continue to to grow and develop well, well past 18. And why shouldn’t our kids, you know, why shouldn’t we continue? I’m still I’m still developing. I’m still learning, constantly learning. And I feel like the elasticity of the brain is such that, you know, you have to really go in there and mine it and use it and, and keep at it. And I and I would encourage people to do that. All people, you know, you don’t just stop learning, you don’t stop developing. And I think that’s a big mistake for a lot of people.

ALISON: You kept going and kept trying.

VALERIE: And we still are. We still are. It’s not over.

ALISON: Righ…Did you know you had this much, um, strength?

VALERIE: Well, you know, I’m super stubborn and I’m super independent, and I think that I think it, you know, you don’t you’re not left with a choice. You know, to me, they’re, you know, it’s kind of like you have to rally because there’s no choice. What are you going to do? Nothing. So if whatever may have been lacking in me, was certainly pushed to the to the edge…there just is no choice, in my mind.

JEAN: Right. I have to just speak to that because people would say that my husband, when he was going through his cancer treatments and everything, he they’d say, oh, Alex, you’re you’re so strong. And he’d say, I don’t have a choice. I’m just doing what I need to do.

VALERIE: Exactly.

JEAN: And I think that’s such a recognition of the power of the human spirit that we just rise to the occasion, and there is a choice… Do we want to throw in the towel? Or can we just know that there’s something else we can do, something more, more expansive? Yeah.

VALERIE: Right. And that’s always been that next challenge for, for us, you know, as a family… what is that next step? You know, how can we raise the bar? I mean, and I will say that that was you know, that was one thing I think probably the biggest difference between my view of things and the school district’s view of things was that they wanted to lower the bar, and I wanted to raise the bar, you know, and that was always it. And I think that, you know, in many ways, the reason for wanting to raise the bar is that because I did see this extraordinary light in Emily and an extraordinary capability which they may not have seen, but I saw, that we saw, Tom and I saw and you know, you just don’t let that be, you know, no parent lets that be. Um, you can’t… It’s impossible to do that. Um, so, you know, that’s that’s kind of what has kept us going and still does. I mean, every day is, I used to say every day is a new dawn with Emily. I didn’t know who I was going to wake up to. I didn’t know who or what was going to happen. And this was, you know, when things were were kind of bleak. I didn’t know who, what was going to happen, who she was going to be, what was going to be our next…. And it’s still the case now. You know, I still don’t know who she is every morning going to be every morning. I have a better sense now because she can kind of communicate better. But honestly, I mean, it’s always a new challenge and I guess I like challenges.

ALISON: I guess, I guess…Well, you were presented with challenges. You know, you’re going to you’re going to like them or not, you know, and….

VALERIE: I think I figure things out a little bit later than I should of I, you know, I’ve sort of, you know, I sort of used to kick myself and say, you know, I should have known about things earlier on in the process than I did. And I had no excuse. You know, I was educated, I was a lawyer, I had access to things, you know, things that other people came to learn earlier about the disability. I didn’t know, um, and I don’t know whether it was because I was upset. I mean, my husband says I was very upset at the beginning. I don’t remember it being so that so, but maybe I was trying to figure it would, you know, it would it was just going to kind of disappear, you know, magical thinking, as I say in the book, you know, I was like a magical thinking. It’s like, if I think it’ll go away, you know?

ALISON: My favorite line of the whole book was, you were talking about something.. and then you said, “but first I had to make some mistakes.”

VALERIE: Yeah, that.

ALISON: Really resonated with me. Yeah. When I look back on my life, I went, wow, I guess I had to do all those, learn all those mistakes, go through all that.

VALERIE: Well, we all make mistakes. I mean, we all make mistakes. And, you know, you know, I always felt that none of them was irreversible. But you know, the thing is, time is really not on your side when you’re raising a child. You know, I always felt like every minute counted. It was like, every minute counted. Like, don’t tell me about giving me therapies in two years from now. I need them now. I need them today.

ALISON: I’m right there with you.

JEAN: Life is precious, Time is precious. It’s our gold….and what we do…. And we all know it goes by so fast. And we learn that lesson constantly. Now, whether what we do with that is, is another thing.

Speaker4: So do Emily, do you have any final thoughts.

EMILY: Just to always make your own path if there is not one for you?

ALISON: Oh.

JEAN: Oh you’re amazing.

ALISON: Emily….You’re really so spectacular.

JEAN: What a light!.

ALISON: Thank you. Thank you both for talking with us and taking up this this time. I really appreciate it.

VALERIE: Thank you. This was so delightful. You’re both are so lovely.

ALISON: Okay. Our computer is acting up right now…it’s not us.. Hahah

JEAN: It’s never us. We’re geniuses with TI…. I mean, people call us from all over the world to get help with this … HAHAH.

ALISON: It’s IT. hahahah. I really enjoyed talking to Emily and Valerie.

JEAN: Yeah, they are a lovely, lovely people. And I love that they really support each other. Valerie is just such a source of strength. And I know Emily feels so grateful for her parent’s support.

ALISON: That the last thing she said about creating your own path.

JEAN: Yes. Talk about being committed to your own life and not following someone else’s.

ALISON: Right. And you really, I couldn’t put this book down. It was a very fast moving read because their journey is so it’s so involved. And, you know, Tom and Valerie and Emily, it’s very involved and really has really deep highs and lows. But yet they never lost hope, which I really appreciated.

JEAN: And Valerie definitely has that, for me, that motto, “if where there’s a will, there’s a way.” So I am so inspired by both Emily and and her mom, Valerie.

ALISON: Me too. I’m inspired too.

JEAN: Okay…Well, we can both be inspired.

ALISON: I guess so…Hey, thank you so much.

JEAN: We hope you’re inspired.

ALISON: That’s right. Have a great day. Okay. Bye.

JEAN: Bye.