JEAN: There we are.

ALISON: Here we are.

JEAN: This is one of my favorite things to do.

ALISON: Sit together, jammed up into a microphone and having fun, right?

JEAN: Yes.

ALISON: Just hanging out. We love it. How was .your day?

JEAN: My day was busy. I spoke to a lot of people today, and, uh. But it was a great day.

ALISON: It was. And I started Tai Chi today.

JEAN: You did? that’s right.

ALISON: Yes. And it, um. You know, it looks so easy, and the guy turned around and he goes, “Alison, how did you do?” And I just said to him, I’m glad you weren’t watching. And the guy starts laughing. Yeah, because that is the truth. I’ll get better.

JEAN: And I love that you’re doing that. You’re really doing some unique things that that you have, not unique, but things that you haven’t been doing all your life.

ALISON: It’s stuff that’s starting with T – tap and tai chi.

JEAN: Right…well, go you!

ALISON: I’m gonna be a twirling dervish next.

JEAN: You’ll be a twirling top.

ALISON: That’s correct. So we have a wonderful interview today.

JEAN: We do. We have Emily Grodin.

ALISON: And her mom, Valerie.

ALISON: Emily is an incredible poet. And the two of them wrote a book called, “I Have Been Buried Under Years of Dust- a memoir of autism and hope”. Emily is on the on the autism spectrum.

JEAN: Right. And her mother, Valerie, and her dad, Tom, really championed her to, um, help her speak.

ALISON: Right. And they use, um, they use a technique called facilitated communication. So there’s a woman sitting with Emily, and her name was Stephanie, i think when we talked… Was that right?

JEAN: I don’t remember her name, but she was very nice. Right?

ALISON: She was very nice…you’ll hear her be introduced. And then when Emily responds to her questions, you’re going to hear like a robotic Siri, like, um, computer voice. Because what Emily is doing is typing and then it speaks back. Right?

JEAN: Right. And what a great device that has really opened up Emily’s life to this creative expression of writing. And she she’s actually writing a screenplay.

ALISON: Yeah. That’s right. And her poetry I found so moving and so, um, deep, meaningful, deep and meaningful and so accessible for, for so many people. So we think you’re going to love this interview.

JEAN: We know you’re going to love it.

ALISON: Ohhh…

JEAN: We do.

ALISON: Being definite.

JEAN: Such a treat… Valerie.

ALISON: We read your book and it’s really amazing. Emily, you are such a beautiful writer.

VALERIE: Hello.. And Stephanie Lewis is with Emily. I should introduce Stephanie. Stephanie, stick your head in there.

STEPHANIE: Hi. That’s me. Hi. How are you?

JEAN: I just first want to say that, um… So, I’m Jean, and this is Alison, and, um. your story is amazing and I think it brings such hope to.. It’s just another huge beacon of hope for people to know that this modality of communicating is out there…

VALERIE: Right, yeah.

ALISON: And I thought what was amazing was even if, uh, right now I feel like the world needs more hope. And I feel that your book communicates that in a larger spectrum- that the two of you, uh, really never gave up.

VALERIE: Well, and Tom too, are the three of us.

ALISON: Yes. I’m sorry.

VALERIE: Yes, Tom was such a big part of this, too. Because he, you know, he sort of brought me back when I was sort of, you know, careening out of control a little bit. I mean, it was, you know, there was a balance to it, you know, I mean, Emily, Emily went through so much. I mean, the child was subjected to one therapy after another. And she never complained. She never, you know, pushed back. She just sort of went along with things, you know, and and on our part, you know, was constantly searching for things that would help her because, you know, it wasn’t to normalize her. It was just to help her have access to the world. And I think that’s one of the things that I kind of want people to understand, because some of the comments that have been written about me, um, in on some platforms has been that I was trying to make her quote unquote normal, but what was not the case… I mean, I love Emily as exactly as Emily is, for who she is, in every aspect about her. I mean, there’s not anything I don’t love about my daughter, but, you know, I understood the challenges that the world presents. And I really was just trying to, um, make her better able to access the world, um, given who she is. And I think any parent does that. I mean, all of our kids have. I mean, everybody has their limitations. I have my limitations. You know? I mean, you try to maximize what you can, so that you can have a good life, you know? And that’s all I was really trying to do for her.

ALISON: I never felt that reading the book. I have to be honest with you. I actually just, we both have two children, and they’re just around…. Emily, how old are you right now? is that okay to ask? I’ve never asked a woman their age, but how old are you, Emily?

STEPHANIE: 29. Oh, sorry. I have her volume super low. 29 there.

EMILY: 29.

ALISON: Wow – so you’ve been able to find this opening for yourself to communicate, Emily, for the past five years?

EMILY: That’s right.

ALISON: Very nice…And your poems, um, I was so moved by your poems. Some of them… see, I’m going to get teary eyed… Some of them truly expressed things that I have felt in my life. And I thought the universality of them was so moving. How long does it take you to write a poem? Does it just flow out of you quickly, or is it something that you spend a lot of time with?

EMILY: They come quickly. I would usually complete in an hour.

ALISON: That is shocking…that’s like you are a muse.

VALERIE: You know, it’s interesting…that’s how poets are, though, you know, I mean, Paul Simon, I don’t know if you ever saw that that exhibit up at the Skirball about Paul Simon, but he would go to a Chinese restaurant and just write down on a napkin. And that’s really like Emily. I mean, she just it just comes to her. It’s really extraordinary. Um, she wrote a few weeks ago, we were out in the sun too much, and she got a terrible sunburn on her feet, of all places… The top feet, the worst. She wrote the funniest poem,just like that about the sunburn. She gets moved. I mean, it really is amazing. It’s just a total gift.

ALISON: Yeah.

VALERIE: A gift, isn’t it, Emmy?

EMILY: It is.

JEAN: So Valerie, can you tell me, um, what was your inspiration to write a book after you saw that Emily was really opening up to being able to communicate, it was like you pulled the lid off, right? I love the title – “I have been buried under years of dust.” I love the title. I know that Emily said those exact words to you…. And so what was your intention?

VALERIE: Well initially, my intention was to publish Emily’s writings and her poetry. And that’s how initially we approached various, um, agents and unfortunately, none of them or fortunately, I suppose, because we ended up with this great book. Um, they felt that the writings of an individual with autism would not be a sell, and nobody wanted to get involved with it. So I contacted some people that were pretty well known, actually, in the business, and they said, oh, what you should do is you should just get Emily published in as many places as you can, and then eventually her name will be known. But there was one agent, who I was referred to, who read Emily’s work, and he went, “oh my God. You know, this is incredible stuff.” But even more incredible, is the story of how you got there. And he said, I think that’s the story that should be told. And so we talked about it and we discussed it, and we figured a way to propose it. But my main proviso was that her work had to be included throughout the book. And that’s how the reflections came up. So it was, you know, that’s how her work is integrated, because that was important. People needed to hear her voice. It wasn’t just the back story of how we got there, which I think is the backdrop to me. It’s the backdrop, you know, all the work, everything that happened. It’s the predicate, you know, to what actually was developed. And I think it’s important, but more important, is that her words come out and that the light be shown on her, because that was my initial original intent. It wasn’t about me and it wasn’t about Tom. It was about her. And, um, you know, I mean, really, I have to be honest, and I’ve shared this with many people before, is that after so many years of people not recognizing Emily’s strengths and just how bright she was and how much she had to contribute, I wanted a light to shine very brightly on her, very brightly on her. And that’s why this, that’s what was my goal. I mean, that was my goal always. And so we accomplished that. I mean, you know, once Emily wrote those first words were so profound — “I had been buried under years of dust.” I mean, who writes that? Who says that the first time coming out of their mouth? And the interesting thing about Emily was that, you know, this methodology of communicating with facilitated communication or supported typing, whatever you want to call it. Um, what was interesting about it for her was that it wasn’t just a matter of communicating wants and desires, she could kind of do that, but it was full thoughts and very lyrical thoughts and beautifully put and so expressive and perfect typing. Perfect spelling. Uh, you know, everything in that book, that’s hers. We do have a note at the end, is all original writing. There’s no editing to any of that. Um, which is really important because here’s a person who did not communicate verbally and who really never, never wrote because she because they did not, were unable to measure her capacity in many ways. Um, you know, our testing of individuals is typically with verbal responses. And so it was hard to measure, I think, for people people knew that she was bright because she, uh, Emily was, you know, so responsive and and so capable nonverbally. I mean, her nonverbal, her level of nonverbal communication was unbelievable. And her way to accomplish things was nonverbal. And her way to manipulate was really very clear to people. But in terms of her expectations of her writings, she had, you know, she her she was never she never wrote a story. She never wrote an essay. She never did any of that all the way through school. Um, her testing was done really by multiple choice… Yes. No, that sort of thing. Yeah.

ALISON: What’s interesting is that it made me realize, uh, what a powerful listener you are Emily, you were listening, I guess, to be able to absorb and write in such a way, listening to teachers and people for many years and being able to to to take that in. I found that moving because I think so many times, unless people, um, I feel like sometimes people sell other people short in their daily lives. And you are such a lesson that to me that, um, people that are different than me, people that might–like senior citizens, you know, like my, my grandmother reached a point and sometimes people would think she couldn’t hear anything. I knew she was hearing every single thing because she was communicating with me, and I found that very profound for you, Emily. In your classes now, are you still in, did you graduate college? Are you still at, um, Santa Monica College?

EMILY: Still at a local school.

ALISON: Where do you see yourself in in 5 or 10 years, Emily? What what do you think about that? Like in terms of your future, where would you like to be in 5 or 10 years?

EMILY: I would like to have a degree and I know I will always be writing. Maybe screenwriting next.

ALISON: Wow, that would be great. I would love that. I would love to read one of your scripts.

VALERIE: Yeah. She’s, uh, she’s kind of been working on something, so. Yeah. That and continued poetry. Yeah. I mean, shout out to Valley College. She’s she’s going to Valley College now and she has been for a while and um, Los Angeles Valley College and. Yeah. So she’s going to just get her preliminary stuff out of the way. She’s a few more courses to go, and then we’ve got to figure out what the next steps are going to be.

JEAN: So Valerie, I know that your friends with the Asner’s. Yes, we did a little article on them on insidewink. And can you tell me how you got, uh, introduced to to the Ed Asner Family Center and how that helped you or if it did?

VALERIE: They had a camp that I sort of learned about through some friends. And then when they moved here into Reseda, I heard about the center and I went to see it, and I didn’t know Matt or Nava personally before that. But after we went over there and we we saw what a beautiful, incredible setting it was. Um, and the place is absolutely gorgeous and the types of programming that they were offering and that it appealed to, they had programming actually, for older individuals. It wasn’t just for, um, children. They were offering activities. They were offering um, uh, acting and hooking up with some with a miracle project and other acting classes and social activities. There was drumming. There were other things. And so that’s how, you know, we got started with them and we were with them. We but we didn’t start until right before the beginning of 2019, you know. So it went through until the pandemic and there were some great parties. I mean, there was a great Christmas party, I mean, an unbelievable Christmas party. And people came from all over, you know, the South, the South area, from Los Angeles, even people from the West side who don’t ever want to come into the valley, we’re coming into the valley because it was such a great party and they had food trucks and everything.

VALERIE: So that’s how I really met them. I knew Nava’s story, I knew the back story of Nava, and I knew of Ed Asner, and I knew, you know, through some professional connections. But that’s how really how I met them was really when Emily and I first went over there and she participated in their activities, and then we got to know them better and better, you know, as we went along and, and are really delighted to be part of their circle. Um, honestly, I mean they are fantastic advocates and the environment is beautiful and. Emily is now participating, there’s actually – they have the autism spectrum dating or something, you know, for kids on the spectrum to learn how to kind of socialize and to date and that sort of thing. So that’s a really nice thing for Emily. And that’s, you know, it’s hard. The activities for older individuals are fewer and far between or ones that are eaningful. And so they’re providing that opportunity. And I think it’s smart of them to recognize that kids grow up, you know?

ALISON: How long did it take you to write the book… Like how long was it, how many years was the process?

VALERIE: It was a two year process.

ALISON: I couldn’t put it down.

VALERIE: Oh, good. I’m glad you liked it.

ALISON: Really..you know, we get a lot of things to read and and talk to people, and you try to at least be familiar with it. And I have to tell you, I finished it in a day. I could not put it down. My husband’s like, are you going to eat dinner? I was like, no, no, she’s going to Ireland. I got to get through the Ireland part. You know, it just was really, really…it just made me cry.

VALERIE: Yeah. The Ireland part was crazy. I have pictures, we have pictures. Um, there’s some pictures on the website. I know when, um, Fox LA did the, um, the piece with Michaela Pereira, they had the picture of Emily actually kissing the the castle, which was the craziest thing. I mean, if you’ve been there, you know, it’s a difficult place to, it’s difficult to kiss that stone anyway, and probably isn’t the healthiest thing in the world but we couldn’t do it, because of the tour group coming in from the ship, the tour, the cruise ship that came in on the west coast of Ireland.

ALISON: So I liked your improv, like kiss over here, kiss this wall. And you know what? I believe that it’s all connected anyway. So, you know, make the castle the stone… Like kiss this brick, that brick. I thought that was great. I loved your, um, sort of like… All right, this will do.

VALERIE: Desperate, desperate measures.

ALISON: Right? We’ve all we’ve all been there. I think that was pretty great to improvise. Yeah., I was also very moved by what you wrote, Emily… Emily writes a section about, um, her parents that is so moving to me, and I want to read it to my kids and say, pick up a pen. It really was so beautiful, emily, what you wrote about about your parents. That was a beautiful, beautiful moment in the book.

EMILY: Thank you. And earlier talking about being a good listener. My parents, they really knew I was taking it all and grateful for that.

JEAN: Yeah, I love that you say that, Emily. I think it’s such a poignant and powerful acknowledgement –it’s that giving and receiving are one. That your parents saw you, saw beyond your challenge and um, and just never gave up. But they actually saw you… The truth of you. That’s one of the reasons why Allison and I talked about naming our website inside Wink. It’s the love, the goodness within everyone that comes out and, um, and we all need to do that for each other. And you know, I know your parents, um, that’s such, such a powerful act of love. And I’m so inspired by both of you. I’m going to start crying.

VALERIE: Thank you so much. Thank you.

ALISON: So beautiful. And it’s really that this book is a love story. And, uh, we really appreciate you being here, and I’m so happy that you two are being honored together.

VALERIE: Thank you. Yeah.

Speaker3: Valeie, is there anything you want to say before end?

ALISON: Or Emily?

JEAN: Or Emily, Yes of course…

VALERIE: There’s so much to say, I mean, we hope certainly that people, you know, will understand the importance of just never giving up and understand that, you know, just because a child each reaches that magical age of, of so-called maturity or 18, doesn’t change anything. I mean, there’s still a child, an individual who needs, could need possibly some more pushing and assistance. And I know it’s considered a magical date by many people and many parents of kids with challenges. But, you know, like you continue to grow and develop. I mean, I’ve always said to people, look, I feel like I continue to to grow and develop well, well past 18. And why shouldn’t our kids, you know, why shouldn’t we continue? I’m still I’m still developing. I’m still learning, constantly learning. And I feel like the elasticity of the brain is such that, you know, you have to really go in there and mine it and use it and, and keep at it. And I and I would encourage people to do that. All people, you know, you don’t just stop learning, you don’t stop developing. And I think that’s a big mistake for a lot of people.

ALISON: You kept going and kept trying.

VALERIE: And we still are. We still are. It’s not over.

ALISON: Righ…Did you know you had this much, um, strength?

VALERIE: Well, you know, I’m super stubborn and I’m super independent, and I think that I think it, you know, you don’t you’re not left with a choice. You know, to me, they’re, you know, it’s kind of like you have to rally because there’s no choice. What are you going to do? Nothing. So if whatever may have been lacking in me, was certainly pushed to the to the edge…there just is no choice, in my mind.

JEAN: Right. I have to just speak to that because people would say that my husband, when he was going through his cancer treatments and everything, he they’d say, oh, Alex, you’re you’re so strong. And he’d say, I don’t have a choice. I’m just doing what I need to do.

VALERIE: Exactly.

JEAN: And I think that’s such a recognition of the power of the human spirit that we just rise to the occasion, and there is a choice… Do we want to throw in the towel? Or can we just know that there’s something else we can do, something more, more expansive? Yeah.

VALERIE: Right. And that’s always been that next challenge for, for us, you know, as a family… what is that next step? You know, how can we raise the bar? I mean, and I will say that that was you know, that was one thing I think probably the biggest difference between my view of things and the school district’s view of things was that they wanted to lower the bar, and I wanted to raise the bar, you know, and that was always it. And I think that, you know, in many ways, the reason for wanting to raise the bar is that because I did see this extraordinary light in Emily and an extraordinary capability which they may not have seen, but I saw, that we saw, Tom and I saw and you know, you just don’t let that be, you know, no parent lets that be. Um, you can’t… It’s impossible to do that. Um, so, you know, that’s that’s kind of what has kept us going and still does. I mean, every day is, I used to say every day is a new dawn with Emily. I didn’t know who I was going to wake up to. I didn’t know who or what was going to happen. And this was, you know, when things were were kind of bleak. I didn’t know who, what was going to happen, who she was going to be, what was going to be our next…. And it’s still the case now. You know, I still don’t know who she is every morning going to be every morning. I have a better sense now because she can kind of communicate better. But honestly, I mean, it’s always a new challenge and I guess I like challenges.

ALISON: I guess, I guess…Well, you were presented with challenges. You know, you’re going to you’re going to like them or not, you know, and….

VALERIE: I think I figure things out a little bit later than I should of I, you know, I’ve sort of, you know, I sort of used to kick myself and say, you know, I should have known about things earlier on in the process than I did. And I had no excuse. You know, I was educated, I was a lawyer, I had access to things, you know, things that other people came to learn earlier about the disability. I didn’t know, um, and I don’t know whether it was because I was upset. I mean, my husband says I was very upset at the beginning. I don’t remember it being so that so, but maybe I was trying to figure it would, you know, it would it was just going to kind of disappear, you know, magical thinking, as I say in the book, you know, I was like a magical thinking. It’s like, if I think it’ll go away, you know?

ALISON: My favorite line of the whole book was, you were talking about something.. and then you said, “but first I had to make some mistakes.”

VALERIE: Yeah, that.

ALISON: Really resonated with me. Yeah. When I look back on my life, I went, wow, I guess I had to do all those, learn all those mistakes, go through all that.

VALERIE: Well, we all make mistakes. I mean, we all make mistakes. And, you know, you know, I always felt that none of them was irreversible. But you know, the thing is, time is really not on your side when you’re raising a child. You know, I always felt like every minute counted. It was like, every minute counted. Like, don’t tell me about giving me therapies in two years from now. I need them now. I need them today.

ALISON: I’m right there with you.

JEAN: Life is precious, Time is precious. It’s our gold….and what we do…. And we all know it goes by so fast. And we learn that lesson constantly. Now, whether what we do with that is, is another thing.

Speaker4: So do Emily, do you have any final thoughts.

EMILY: Just to always make your own path if there is not one for you?

ALISON: Oh.

JEAN: Oh you’re amazing.

ALISON: Emily….You’re really so spectacular.

JEAN: What a light!.

ALISON: Thank you. Thank you both for talking with us and taking up this this time. I really appreciate it.

VALERIE: Thank you. This was so delightful. You’re both are so lovely.

ALISON: Okay. Our computer is acting up right now…it’s not us.. Hahah

JEAN: It’s never us. We’re geniuses with TI…. I mean, people call us from all over the world to get help with this … HAHAH.

ALISON: It’s IT. hahahah. I really enjoyed talking to Emily and Valerie.

JEAN: Yeah, they are a lovely, lovely people. And I love that they really support each other. Valerie is just such a source of strength. And I know Emily feels so grateful for her parent’s support.

ALISON: That the last thing she said about creating your own path.

JEAN: Yes. Talk about being committed to your own life and not following someone else’s.

ALISON: Right. And you really, I couldn’t put this book down. It was a very fast moving read because their journey is so it’s so involved. And, you know, Tom and Valerie and Emily, it’s very involved and really has really deep highs and lows. But yet they never lost hope, which I really appreciated.

JEAN: And Valerie definitely has that, for me, that motto, “if where there’s a will, there’s a way.” So I am so inspired by both Emily and and her mom, Valerie.

ALISON: Me too. I’m inspired too.

JEAN: Okay…Well, we can both be inspired.

ALISON: I guess so…Hey, thank you so much.

JEAN: We hope you’re inspired.

ALISON: That’s right. Have a great day. Okay. Bye.

JEAN: Bye.

Alison: Hello? Yes.

Jean: Oh, yes, you did it. You’re so good. Look at you, Alison.

Alison: I’m learning this. Um. Hi, Jean.

Jean: Hello.

Alison: Uh, so today is a very special day for Jean and I. Because Jean is going to try to teach me how to make two desserts.

Jean: That’s right, I am, and I it’s my Christmas gift to you.

Alison: Right.

Jean: To teach you how to bake.

Alison: Right. Teaching me how to bake. So today we’re making two desserts. And I guess next time we’re sometime we’ll tell you how it turned out.

Jean: Okay, that sounds like a plan.

Alison: And today we are talking to someone whose book is titled, listen to this title… “Love Yourself Happy: A Journey Back to You” by Shari Elise…

Jean: Who is also known as the Joy magnet. And it is no doubt why she was named this, right?

Alison: She’s, she’s she’s amazing. She’s so joyful.

Jean: I mean, I’m like trying to think of some other adjective, but joy is really the perfect adjective for this beautiful woman.

Alison: And she’s had quite an interesting background, um, as a child. And if you get the book, you’ll read it. She went through, um, sexual abuse and just the testifying and just a lot. She’s gone through a lot. And so her, her coming to a place of joy and wanting to be vulnerable and wanting to be true to her passions is very motivating and very motivating and very inspirational. Right.

Jean: She is. She’s great. You’re gonna love the interview. And you’re also going to love, love her book.

Alison: Yeah. It’s beautiful. So here’s, Shari.

Alison: So happy we’re doing it. We’re now uncapped and it’s fantastic.

Shari Alyse: And you’re together.

Jean: Yeah. We’re together. And you are so worth waiting for because I know our listeners are going to absolutely love you and take away so many, uh, wonderful tips.

Alison: Love Yourself Happy: A Journey Back To You. Why did you… Could you just give our listeners an idea why you decided to write this book? What came up for you?

Shari Alyse: I think this book has always been in me. I’ve always, since the time I was a young girl. As I share in the book, um, sharing my truth, I shared it at seven years old, you know, on a witness stand. Uh, and so there’s always been this desire to whatever it is that I’m learning or I’m feeling. I’ve just always wanted to express it. And as time went on, it was this bubbling inside because I knew and I’ve always instinctively knew that we all go through similar things together. And so if I was learning and I was healing, I knew that my journey would help others.

Alison: That’s right. That’s beautiful. Yeah.

Jean: And can you talk about your journey? What happened a little bit?

Shari Alyse: Yeah. Of course. It’s like when I hear the word journey, it’s so big, right? So I’m like, oh, which part? But, um, yes. So at seven years old, uh, this is always for me, you know, where that starting line feels like, uh, there was of course, a lot before that, but that’s where the turn for me happened. Um, I was I was left in the care… Basically, my sister was going off with friends for the day, and my mom was like, can your sister tag along? I think my mom was a single mom. I know she was a single mom, and I think she wanted, you know, some time for herself. And so, uh, I went off with my sister’s friend’s family who were supposed to care for me, and then they left me in the care of somebody else who didn’t care for me. Um, and at seven, I was abused. Sexually abused, um, by a stranger. It’s interesting because I’ve had so much time, you know, I’ve talked about this so much and in depth and so much continues to come up, though, about, you know, how and why. And I shared what happened. So the man who had done it had threatened afterwards, myself and my family, that if I shared that he would hurt them and he would hurt me. But there was, you know, something inside of me that just knew to tell on him. And in that telling I told.. I tried to tell my sister on the drive home, but, you know, she was with her friends, so she of course, at nine, she was only two years older, at nine years old, didn’t know what was going on.

Shari Alyse: So when we got home, um, I still wanted to tell her. So I remember she was going to the bathroom and I was just in the bathroom with her. And my mom had sensed that there was something wrong with me. And so my mom was actually eavesdropping around the corner, um, listening to me tell my sister that. And in that process, they called the police. Um, and I, we ended up in court. It was 1981, so no one was talking openly about this. And they put me on a witness stand to testify against the abuser. And, you know, we put him in jail. But what happened for me, there was, you know, I ended up, what feels like to this day, having to defend why I didn’t do more at that age to stop this person, you know. Um, and so just from that point on, I learned two things. And those two things were that using my voice, telling my truth helped people because they found out he had done this to a lot of girls. And. You know, I was lauded a hero. But I also found out that using my voice also hurt people because there was a part of me that a big part of me that felt guilt for putting him in jail. Um, and for and for putting my parents… what I thought at that time, I thought my dad was ashamed of me. I thought my mom thought she didn’t teach me the right things, you know? So it really has been this journey of disconnection from that young girl of not wanting to feel that. Yeah. To finding my way back. Right to that young girl.

Jean: You know, I think it’s it’s so cathartic to to share your story as, as you were saying because it’s a part of soul retrieval. You know, that part where we, where we have disconnected from ourselves. And yes, you went through something horrific. But even when you’ve been yelled at by an adult as a child, I mean, the trauma forces the psyche to sort of split. So I do think that telling your story is medicine for soul retrieval. Um, and we can use different words. But I thank you so much because that, you know, sharing your story, sometimes it gets like, oh my God, but you’re doing it and you’re helping new ears here. And I thank you, Sherry.

Alison: Yeah. And I think to not to be defined by that is really something like, you know, you know, at seven years old, it must have been like, what a brave thing and a brave little, you know, or you know, something. There was a marker, a designation of you. And now how do you feel now? Because you have gone out of your way not to be defined by that.

Shari Alyse: Out of my way is a perfect example. I mean, a description of and I knew that. And again, you know, there were two things that I knew at that time for sure. Number one, while it was happening, I remember knowing that I was going to be okay. I there was just something inside that was just almost like, bear it. You’re gonna be all right. Um, but I also knew, too. I knew that I didn’t do anything wrong. Right. And I knew that I did not want to be a victim. And. That was good and it sent me on a different path as well, which was to not connect to what had happened and to deny what I think will I what I know that I was feeling and pushing that down. So then it was again, that journey to coming back to he feeling it, hearing it, sitting with it, and then still having that thing that I won’t be defined by it. Right?

Alison: And now you are the joy magnet.

Shari Alyse: That’s what they say.

Jean: You exude this joy and it’s contagious. Sherry, can you tell us the difference in your mind between happiness and joy?

Shari Alyse: Yes, absolutely. So it’s on, on in a basic way. Happiness is external. It’s those things that we define ourselves or that happen to us that, you know, we talk about the emotions and the feelings of happiness that makes me happy. Uh, and joy for me and people… What I’ve learned is that it’s internal, that it’s a state of being. It’s who we are, and it’s something that can’t be taken away. While it may not be sparked in that moment, for me, it just feels like our soul. It’s who we are as children. It’s why we relate when we look at them. We can recognize ourselves in that. Um, and I and I always I have this I don’t know if it’s analogy, but I always say it feels like, um, if life was a dinner table, happiness is what’s being served on the table, and joy is what we bring to the table.

Alison: That’s beautiful. I have to just say to every listener, this book, your book, Love Yourself Happy… what we’re talking about, is so great. You know, we read it the first time we were going to interview you, and then we did it again. And I have to tell you, every time I read it, I get something new. And the thing that impresses me the most every time I read it is how you are so much like me. And I’m sure everybody says that you’re so vulnerable. How was that to write something that’s so you so personal?

Shari Alyse: Freeing, uh, and definitely freeing because it felt like it’s why I create content actually every day… Videos…. It feels like this part of my soul that needs to be expressed. And once I do, there’s a lightness to it. Um, it was hard because there was so much. There was a lot that I blocked out. There was a lot that I had to sit with and really remember and put myself back in that place. But it was fun. Like so much of my book was written by audio. So I would as I was doing my morning hikes, I was just sharing, um, into my phone notes. And so which is always so interesting when people say like, it feels like I’m right in the room. When you were talking to me, I’m like, I literally was. I was just speaking it.

Jean: Your book is an easy read in that it’s very relatable and, and I do think this should be a required reading for high school seniors because you go through so much already by the time you’re 17 or 18. And many of us don’t even connect back to ourselves. And we live so much life, sort of disconnected. You use the word connection a lot in this book. Can you talk about? The meaning of connection?

Shari Alyse: Yes I mean connection, connection to me is what Joy is. I believe it’s why you both have said that I exude and radiate joy is because for me – Joy is connection to five things. Uh, connection to ourselves, connection to each other, to our creativity, our purpose and to nature. I feel like when we connect to each one of those selves, it sparks joy. And I spent many years, as I said, disconnected from myself. Which means, you know, I was using food to not have to feel it, to not connect with myself. I was in relationship. Toxic relationships with men just trying to feel loved. But I was disconnected from myself because if I was, I would have felt love, right? Um, there was just a lot of avoiding that so many of us do, whether it’s through scrolling, whether it’s through eating, drinking, shopping, binge watching television. It’s just that thing to not be still and to feel and to sit with ourselves. And I realized that I had spent a whole lot of my life like that. And I think we do that as like a sense of safety, you know, to not have to feel some of the stuff that we haven’t tapped into or dealt with. So the hope for the book really is that what people take away is that they stop and they slow down and they sit with themselves and they’re compassionate with themselves, and they realize that whatever it is that they’re feeling and going through, number one, it’s normal. And number two, it’s okay.

Alison: So do you recommend that people sit back and stop? I think I do the eating thing, I do the binge watching TV and I know I’ll be sitting there watching 5000 episodes of runway, whatever. You know what I mean?

Shari Alyse: Project runway? Yeah. I’m a fan too

Alison: One more dress. I could lose my mind, but I’m, like, stuck in it. What would you suggest to me? Just to stop? But that’s hard sometimes.

Shari Alyse: It is hard. But I think what’s really hard about it is almost the idea of, of the fear around what will happen. But once we actually stop and slow down. Yeah, there’s some challenges in there, but there’s so much. There’s so much like good and beauty and love. There’s life there, and we run from it for so long that we more fear what’s there than what’s actually there. Um, and so what I would say is, you know, there is healthy, I mean, there’s nothing wrong with watching TV. I don’t want people to think like, because they’re watching multiple episodes. It could just be a really good show, you know?

Shari Alyse: I know how to have fun. I binge myself. But it’s when, you know, when you’re avoiding something, you know, like there comes to a certain point, even for me, like every night at a certain time when things really start to slow down, like, I want to go and get a snack. And I’m not hungry. I just know it’s a sense of avoiding. And so. We could start easy. We could just in those moments that we’re feeling it, just stop and take a breath.

Shari Alyse: One of the most connecting things that I do for myself, and I do it every morning just to make sure that I’m there, is I put my hands on my heart and I just check in and say, how are you doing?

Jean: I love that, that’s it.

Shari Alyse: How are you? And so maybe in those moments at night when you want to watch another episode, maybe it’s just taking a breath. What do you need? How are you? And listening

Alison: That’s beautiful. Thank you. That’s what I’m going to do I’ll try that and I’m going to email you okay.

Shari Alyse: Okay! Then you can watch another episode if you’re called to!

Alison: Thank you. Also talk about being guided, which I am personally fascinated by because I think there are signs and moments that we all bring to each other. Can you talk a little bit about your thoughts on being guided and being open to it?

Shari Alyse: Oh yeah, I think we’re consistently and constantly guided. But it’s that thing about noticing… Of slowing down enough, and I will never profess that I know it all, or that I do everything perfectly, because I know that there are times that I don’t want to listen. There are times like it just seems it’s like, oh my God, I know I’m going to be told to do this harder thing or what seems harder. Uh, but I always feel like… An example – when I, when I… it was quite some time ago. I, for the first time, was really dealing with what happened to me at seven years old, I was taking a shower on my way to work, and all of a sudden the flashbacks came back. I’d always thought about what had happened. I never forgot, but it was always from this distant perspective, looking down like it’s a movie. But the first time I was in the movie and I broke down and I had to go. I was waitressing at the time and I had to go to work that day, and I remember I called my manager just bawling and was like, I can’t come in.

Shari Alyse: I’m having these memories. And she said, go take the time off, take whatever you need. And I went, I was driving and I went back home. Anyway, I turned the computer on and there was at the time, you know, pop up signs. There was a pop up ad to go to Sedona for Sedona, Arizona. I wasn’t open to signs… Like that was a literal sign for me now, I could have just ignored it and been closed it out. But there was that instant knowing that I needed to go there, and it was about trusting in that. And through that experience, I ended up going to Sedona and having never been there, didn’t know what was there except they talked about it was a really spiritual healing place. And in there I met my seven year old self on the top of one of those vortexes on the way out, which is another whole story, you know, in my book. And that changed the trajectory of my healing. Yeah. And if I didn’t trust that feeling inside that said go. I would have missed all that.

Alison: That gives me chills.

Jean: It is so important to trust and lean into those signposts.

Shari Alyse: Yeah. And it’s a deep knowing. And we can feel when we don’t listen like I’m sure we can look back. And there’s times where your gut, your intuition told you to follow something and you didn’t. And then the times when you do and there’s almost like… I, I was not connected to my body, you know, after what had happened, I very much disconnected. And the more that I have spent time with myself and really, you know, the self-awareness journey, I guess I can feel when things are an easy yes, I can feel the expansion. I could feel the openness and I could feel when something’s not quite right, a constriction. And I’ve learned to pay attention to that. Um, those are my physical signs to either do something or not do something.

Jean: I think your intuition does increase. It heightens. It gets more fine tuned when you do this healing work that you do. Because like you said, you’re coming back into the body that you separated from. So it makes sense that the more you tell your story that you accept it. You talk a lot about acceptance in your beautiful book. You’re sort of trusting the place of your body for your soul to be, and you become more your those six senses, the those spiritual gifts become online more.

Shari Alyse: Absolutely heightened awareness. I just said it the other day to my partner. I was like, I feel like I have this gift that I could go into a room and immediately know what everybody needs.

Shari Alyse: And by needs, I mean, you know, like what kind of energy they need from me where they’re at. And I realized that I learned that or became aware of that because of what happened to me at a young age, or the awareness of having to sense how everybody was, what the energy was in the room, a sense of safety. And also, you know, my parents went through a really terrible divorce, and I almost sometimes feel like that was more traumatic than the abuse, to be honest. Um, always my mom was always unhappy and you just never knew what the mood was in the house. And so I was always the entertainer and the peacemaker. So I was very sensitive to energies. Um, and so before it was all just coincidental. Now I use it as a superpower because now I know, like, I know how to make a room feel like that, things that they need. So I guess that’s there is that that awareness of our awareness.

Alison: You know, we saw we talked to Lorna Byrne and she speaks to angels. And it’s very much aligned with what you’re saying in that when you have a feeling or an idea…She used the example, give someone flowers. If you get them, do it. And so you’re saying it can be as simple as feeling the energy from someone. You don’t have to run out and buy something. And that’s beautiful because that means we could do that on a checkout line.

Shari Alyse: Oh, absolutely. It’s one of my favorite things to do is, well, first, to just gift people with a smile, like to just really look at somebody because we’re always all just so busy and in our own worlds. And back to waiting tables. I remember when I first moved to LA and I was working in Brentwood, and, uh, I was always just happy and “happy” I use because I didn’t understand it was joy at the time, because joy to me is full expression of ourselves. And I was always just me… That came easily to me. Um, but anyway, I walked up to this woman and she was like, what do you have to be so happy about? And from that moment on, there was this feeling of like, wow, not everybody… I knew that people were unhappy, but it became this thing where I really just wanted to take someone who didn’t give off the best energy and have them walk away feeling better. And I feel like I can do that. And I love doing that. And I feel like that’s a gift that I’ve been given that I love to give.

Alison: I think those type of moments are changing the world and keeping us afloat in times that seem very challenging.

Shari Alyse: And they’re simple and it’s simple to do.

Alison: I just want to read a quote that I think is my favorite quote of yours. “What if surrender has nothing to do with giving up something, but rather receiving everything?” And I pasted that on my wall… surrender…I’ve been taught it has a lot of meanings, but this meaning it’s not, you’re not defeated. You are powerful. Because it seems like, you know, dichotomy. Could you talk about that a little?

Shari Alyse: Yeah. So for years I held on. I tried to control and manage everybody and everything, to keep what I felt was safety for myself and what I realized that in doing that and holding on that I kept away so much. I blocked off so much, so many blessings, so many miracles, so many opportunities. And when I finally realized that all of this holding on, all it was doing was causing constriction and stress and anxiety and all of that within. And I loosened up. What happened is when I loosened and I surrendered, I then opened myself now to receive everything I had been blocking.

Alison: Is surrender the same as being vulnerable?

Shari Alyse: I think there’s a vulnerability in surrender. I don’t know if it’s the same, I think that when we surrender and we let go, it feels like we leave ourselves in this space of vulnerability. But I believe that it’s easy for us to be vulnerable when we trust ourselves.

Shari Alyse: And I think that’s what it’s always been for me, is learning to trust myself. And that took a lot of hindsight to look at how no matter what it was that I have gone through, that I always ended up okay. Yeah. So many of the things that I thought were really bad or that I would never get through, I became better because of.

Shari Alyse: And so you learn to trust that. And in that trusting I’m like, okay, it’s okay to put myself out there because I’ve got me.

Alison: Oh that’s great. My mind is equating vulnerability and surrender. Because surrender is like taking a leap and trusting also. Why do you think or do you think trust is hard these days? Or why do you think? Or maybe you don’t think that? What do you think about it?

Shari Alyse: Oh no, I think trust in are you asking for of ourselves or just anything.

Speaker4: Any trust…Because right now it almost feels a little bit like people are wary.

Shari Alyse: I think that’s I think that’s honestly, I mean, and I’m of course not a psychologist or psychiatrist, but I think that’s all trauma related trauma response. Um, you know, I think everybody we all hold on to our beliefs and our perspectives and everything as a sense of, you know, safety again for all of us. And nobody wants to be heard. And we’ve all been hurt at some point, whether it’s let down by somebody or something. And I think the more that we have access to and see and the media and what they present to us, there is going to naturally be a weariness and a mistrust. Right? But work like the two of you do with Inside Wink and what I hope and am doing and presenting the good in the world. That’s where I think we begin to shift. And people don’t have to be so weary and mistrusting, right?

Jean: Yeah, I love that.

Alison: Me too.

Jean: I have one of many quotes to read from your book that I love. Okay, so you write. “When I gave myself permission to show up imperfectly, I found I could show up anywhere.”

Shari Alyse: So it was the most freeing thing ever. That’s like like suffering and honestly. And what I related to is like, so I have hair loss and I wear wigs. And I held on to that secret for so long because I was afraid that people were going to not love me or they were going to judge me. And the one thing that I held on to at some points when I didn’t believe in myself or love myself as much… I had to hold on to standards of beauty. I remember being at work, so I had hid the fact that I wore like first clip ins, and then I tried extensions and that just ripped the hair and then wigs. I hid it for probably like four years, and that’s a long time to hide it, especially when people just like go in to give you a hug and they’re hugging you and they’re pulling your hair back and you’re trying to keep it on… It’s a lot. It’s a lot. And I remember one night I was waiting tables and I was in the side station, and my manager goes into just take like a piece of lint off my hair. And I thought he was going to take my hair when he did that. I jumped so high and he was like, Shari, like, what is wrong with you? And I didn’t know what to say.

Shari Alyse: And the first thing that came out of my mouth was, I thought you were going to hit me. And he looked at me like I was insane, like, why would I hit you? And I share that because it was in that moment that I realized that I couldn’t go on, like hiding this thing that really didn’t make me who I was. And so that night, at that time, that’s when blogs were really, like, really big before, you know, social media. And I had one. Anyway, I decided I was going to write all of my followers and share the truth about my hair loss. And that night I wrote it, and I scheduled it to go out the next morning. And I remember I was so terrified. I ended up taking like a Tylenol PM so I could just go to sleep and not delete the blog. I woke up the next morning with a pit in my stomach, and I awoke to over 100 messages emails back from women, mostly thanking me for my honesty. And that was another time in my life when I realized that telling the truth helps and heals people and this idea of trying to be perfect and holding it all together is so much work and people so much appreciate when we are real.

Shari Alyse: And for me, you know, this perfection was always trying to do the right thing. I’m not perfect at being imperfect or, um, but it’s just so much easier. It’s just so much easier. And you end up with the people that ultimately love you and the people that you want to be around.

Alison: Right. And everyone is really connected in that.

Speaker4: Yes.

Alison: Like, you know, I did want to talk about. “Good morning, Joy”. Your show. Yes. Jean was on it and it, you know. So then that gets you hooked. Once I see that, I’m like, oh, watch more. It’s so wonderful. Can you tell our listeners how listeners how they can see it? And, um, what what have you enjoyed? Who have you enjoyed interviewing? Of course, besides Jean?

Shari Alyse: Well, Jean has been one of my favorites. So that is and I’m not just saying that because I’m on your show. Uh, because there was just I walked away from that show saying like these are more of the conversations that I want to have, right? Because there was so real and present and your soul was open. So thank you for that. But the show really is it’s I’m trying to put or I am putting something positive out in the world, in the media that really focuses on the good in the world. And that’s good, heartfelt, real conversations. It’s sharing the good news stories in the world, and it’s just having some fun. And, you know, we just completed for the first season and they can it’s it shows on Apple TV, binge networks, connect TV. The probably the easiest to do would be go to my YouTube channel is the easiest to find it. Or they could do. Good morning Joy Show.com.

Alison: Do you have a motto that you live by? Something that or like maybe words of wisdom that someone said that you could share?

Shari Alyse: I do actually, and it’s by Mother Teresa.

Jean: Oh, I love that.

Shari Alyse: And I heard it when I was much younger. And it’s what I live my life by, which is let nobody ever leave you without feeling better and happier.

Jean: Oh my gosh, Shari, that is so you. You are the the demonstration of that quote. And I wanted to say I loved being on your show. You made me feel so relaxed. And it was very easy to open up. And I left when Alison and I drove home. I just thought… Wow. Uh, Sherry is an answered prayer. Your heart and your intention are so aligned with with joy and goodness. So, um, we’re going to do whatever we can to champion your show.

Alison: I love that I and and I think, um, I think what you said, these are more conversations that I want to have. And it’s great that you’re on TV and it’s great that we’re doing a podcast. But I’ve had very meaningful conversations with people I didn’t know, like at the dry cleaner. Do you know? It’s really just being kind, I think. And you are ultimately that. And so we really appreciate you and I hope everybody reads your book and I hope everybody watches your show.

Shari Alyse: Thank you so much. Thank you both so much. It has been a literal joy, uh, to connect with both and for having me on your show.

Alison: You’re fantastic. We are so.

Jean: Grateful. And we’re always here for you.

Alison: Yeah. And if you want to ever talk to us again, just say, let’s do it again, and we’ll do it again.

Shari Alyse: Let’s do it again. Okay?

Alison: Okay. We’ll call you in 20 minutes. Okay. Have a great day.

Shari Alyse: Thank you so much. Bye bye.

Alison: That was a very fun interview for me.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: Right. And I, I love the topics we touched on and when we gave her our favorite quotes.

Jean: Yes.

Alison: And she really sort of illuminated what she was talking about. I mean, the idea of having to be in control and surrender, I think, speaks to so many people these days, don’t you?

Jean: Oh, absolutely. And I also love that all throughout the book, she somehow comes back to connecting with yourself. And, um, I think that is so important to really living a life of joy is connecting to yourself and that the joy is within us. It’s not an external event. Right? That to her is happiness. Which I totally agree.

Alison: I totally agree too. And I love at the end of every chapter she goes, “Pssst, go easy on yourself”. Yes, almost every chapter…Because there was some chapters, I thought, oh, I’ll never be able to do that, or oh, I have so much to work on. And then this end of just like, go Easy on Yourself was such a sweet remembrance for me.

Jean: And for me too. And so I just invite whoever is listening right now. If there’s something that is really bothering you or you’re it’s like a a thorn in your side, just go easy on yourself.

Alison: And you were you were on her show. She has this great TV show I think it’s on her YouTube channel. Shari Alyse. And, um, the show is called the show is called Good Morning Joy. I always want to say THE morning joy, but it’s Good Morning, Joy.

Jean: I wanted to make sure. And she could not have made it more beautiful for me to be there and talk about grieving and just my process through that. But she’s just. I just really love her. I could have talked to her all afternoon.

Alison: And I love that we’re introducing people like this to ourselves and our listeners

Jean: I didn’t know about Shari. And, uh, she is a woman on a mission.

Alison: Yes. That’s right.

Jean: God bless her.

Alison: And we all need to, like, embrace the women and the people that we know that are passionate about good.

Jean: Yes. Right.

Alison: That’s it. We got to go make a dessert now.

Jean: Okay, let’s do it.

Alison: Goodbye.

Alison: Hello, Jeannie.

Jean: Hi, Alison.

Alison: Today we are talking to someone, um, that talks about anxiety in such a different way than I have heard before.

Jean: Same with me. He is a champion for not getting rid of anxiety, but actually transforming the way you feel about anxiety and not making it like an enemy, but more as a calling card to empower yourself.

Alison: That’s right. His name is David Rosmarin and his his book is called,Thriving with Anxiety”, which is a great title, “Nine Tools to Make Your Anxiety Work for You.” And while I was reading it, I was reading it like, at auditions and in waiting rooms, and I was stopped so many times. Like, what’s that book about? Because just the title, Thriving with Anxiety, um, is, I think, really touching people.

Jean: Absolutely. And it also kind of lets the air out of the shame around having anxious thoughts or, um, you know, having anxiety. Right? Just he’s like, lighten up on yourself. And he gives so many great ways to, to actually transform your anxiety.

Alison: And he’s very intellectual. He is right? He is the founder of the center for anxiety, and he’s also a Harvard associate professor, and he’s very intellectual. And yet, he has this very spiritual side and they really complement each other.

Jean: Yes. And I also love that he mentions his wife. Yeah. And the emotional connection he has with her… That that was beautiful.

Alison: He’s great. So here’s the interview with David.

David: I am so sorry… Oh, I did not mean to make you anxious.

Alison: I’m late and I’m driving here like, this is a great way to ….

David: I had, I had tech difficulties for the last five minutes. Perfect. Yeah.

Alison: I just got here and I’m like, this is a great way to start a talk on anxiety.

Jean: 100%.

David: I’m honored to meet you. Thank you. Thank you for making the time. I’ve been really looking forward to this conversation for a while.

Jean: Yeah, same. It’s great to meet you, David. I’m Jean …

Alison: And I’m Alison. Hi. So how did you deal with your stress with technical difficulties?

David: Let me tell you, I definitely got my own anxiety, and I use a lot of the strategies in my book on a regular basis.

Alison: That’s I think that makes me feel much better.

Jean: All of us, I, think it’s great to know that people that appear to really have their act together have anxiety. You know, it’s like what goes on behind the play…what goes on back stage..

David: Whats’s happening in the kitchen?

Speaker1: What’s happening in the kitchen while Thanksgiving dinner is being prepared.

David: All, oh my God, it’s all coming out in like beautiful platters and what is happening in the kitchen? haha

Alison: Right. What inspired you? Was it was it your work or was it your own anxiety that inspired you to write this?

David: All of the above.

Speaker1: Yeah.

David: All of the above. Um, I learned a lot from my patients and how incredibly high functioning many of them are, how amazingly talented they are. And I was always taught to see to see anxiety as a limitation, as a disorder, as a disease, even at some point, I’m like, you know what? Something’s not adding up here. These people are so high functioning. Yes, they have anxiety. And furthermore, when they use it in the right way, it can actually enhance their lives. Like we need a different lens and a different relationship with this ubiquitous emotion that every human being experiences. How many people have you met in the last month who had no anxiety, right?

Alison: No one, no one.

David: And if you did, if you did, they’re either super narcissistic, right? Or they have a drug problem or they are comatose or dead.

Jean: You know, especially nowadays, And your book is so relevant for… Right now what everyone is going through. Um, can you start off by telling. Allison and me and our listeners, what’s the difference between stress, fear and anxiety? Is there a difference? Are they all cousins? But what’s your take?

David: Yes, absolutely. Happy to start there. And it’s in my book. Um, so, uh, let’s start with fear. Fear is a healthy response that the nervous system has, um, in order to deal with an actual tangible threat. So if your body is threatened by something which is really in front of you, uh, an amazing process involving adrenaline. Will, uh, adrenaline, the adrenal glands will fire and release adrenaline into your blood system, and within nanoseconds, your body will transform. Into the fight or flight system. Also known as the fight, flight or freeze system, which can protect you and prevent you from experiencing harm or physical harm as a result of that threat. And that is a healthy, adaptive, positive thing that hopefully you don’t have to rely on too much in your life. But the couple of times that you might have to rely on it… it’s a gift. I think I think of it as a spiritual gift given my background. I will add. but it’s an amazing thing, that’s adaptive and healthy and and keeps us preserved and safe. Anxiety is the same thing, the same heart palpitations, the same secretion of adrenaline. In fact, the same, uh, breathing that increases the tachycardia, increased the breathing rate, the same muscle tension, the same stomach upset, all of the same things occur, those physiological changes with the fight or flight. But there’s one small difference. Any guesses?

Alison: It doesn’t go away.

David: Wow. That’s interesting. It depends on what you do with your anxiety and how you relate to it. Um, anxiety can be perpetual. That’s true. Um, but there’s a there’s a different, there’s another difference.

Alison: Um. I know, I know it somewhere. I know I read it in the beginning.

David: Are you feeling anxious that I’m asking? HAHA

Alison: Yes, yes, I feel like. Oh, where are my notes?

David: The teacher, you know, calling on the pupil. And he’s like, uh, I’m supposed to know this?

Alison: Exactly. Right.

Jean: Something about a smoke alarm.

David: Yeah, that’s true actually. Yeah. That’s right. Ask you a question like, what’s the worst case scenario if you don’t know the answer? Like, what’s really going to happen to you? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Right. That’s anxiety. Fear. If you get it wrong, something’s going to happen. Like if you don’t step out of the way of that bus which is careening towards you at 60 miles an hour, it’s not going to be good. If you unless you activate your flight system, you’re, you’re you’re flat. Now, when it comes to anxiety, there’s no real tangible fear. So you have that adrenal response. But actually if you stop and think about it, you’re like, whoa, this is a false alarm. There’s no real fire in the kitchen. There’s just smoke coming up from onions burning. Right?

Alison: And stress is also different.

David: It’s a little different. This is the cousin. So fear and anxiety are actually very close cousins. I would call them siblings. Mhm. But the one is a real alarm and the other is a false alarm. And by the way the false alarm doesn’t mean it’s bad. It’s still intact. It means your neural system is intact. It means you have a fight or flight system. It means you’re aware of your surroundings. You’re not oblivious. Right, right, right. So there’s advantages of having a smoke alarm that goes off too quickly, that what’s really deadly is the smoke alarm that doesn’t go off at all. Right, exactly. So that’s not what we’re talking about here. So anxiety and fear are I would call them siblings, to use your analogy from before the cousin is stress. Stress is when your demands are greater than your resources. Right? I have too much money to pay. I don’t have enough money. I have too much. Too many things to do. I don’t have enough time, emotional resources. That person is coming to my home and I really can’t take it right now, right? Yeah. Don’t have the wherewithal to do so. We need to reduce the demands and increase the resources right back to a place of equilibrium.

Alison: So me being late is really stress. I’m supposed to be somewhere I’m not there.

David: Correct. But there could be an anxiety piece as well. Which is oh no, what’s this going to do? Like it might also trigger an anxiety response.

Alison: Right. And I think that for me is what the heck’s wrong with me. Oh no. Now you’re speaking with me. Why why couldn’t I have this be straight? So I see. So the stress was, you’re late. But then my mind goes to this, you know, catastrophe place. I’m. I’m losing my mind.

David: Yes. And something’s wrong with me is core. That’s the anxiety spiral. I mean, that’s where when we feel anxious, we start to judge ourselves. We start to go down this tube. I mean, this is why we have an anxiety epidemic today, you know, right. Start to feel anxious and then we upset about it.

Alison: I think it’s interesting that you also differentiate from worry.

David: That’s true.

Alison: And I thought that was so interesting because I thought worry was just anxiety. But you but you’re explaining that it’s some it’s not really. Even the way I understood it was that it’s not really even getting into the weeds. It’s just this sort of level. Right? Like you’re not really ever dealing with anything, like you’re just this constant. Like pebble in your shoe, right?

David: When I learned this concept about worry, it blew my mind. It changed my life, and I have shared it with how many hundreds of patients with similar, similar results. So the thing about worry is that it is a cognitive process, which is really a behavior. It’s something that we do, to cope with anxiety and actually keep it away. Yeah.

Jean: Mhm.

Speaker2: When you’re feeling anxious the number one thing that people will do is avoid, right? Yeah, I’m anxious about the height. So I’m not going to go in the elevator. I’m not going to fly. I’m uh that person makes me uncomfortable. So I’ll block them on my WhatsApp or whatever.

Alison: Right, right right right.don’t want to think about the fact that I’m not in control. So I worry at a very superficial level about just 1 or 2 things, as opposed to really going into the depths of it.

Alison: Right, right.

David: Worry is like a. We ask these very superficial what if questions like what if? I run out of money? What if I run out of money? But you don’t actually answer that question, right? What would it be like? What would actually happen? Mhm. And embrace the true uncertainty of like. There’s not a whole lot. There are certain things we can’t control. That’s usually what worries stops us from moving into. It’s a cognitive process which actually prevents us from experiencing anxiety.

Alison: Wow. Yeah, yeah. And that was my that was my mom, you know. And I loved her. And but I know that there was a source of, you know, my father was in a very risky job, and it was a constant like undercurrent. It was very interesting when I read that.

David: What did he do?

Alison: He was a he was an investigative reporter. So he would go to these countries and you wouldn’t hear from him for weeks or months, and it would be dangerous. And he’d leave. And it was just me and my mom. I’m an only child. So it was very interesting to be with that. And then, you know, so when I was reading it, I thought to myself, wow, that is really, you know…

David: You’ve had a lot of uncertainty to embrace with being alone, being terrified about what’s going on with her husband, not being having any agency over it because there’s nothing she could do. Right. And she’s alone with her daughter and or, you know, in different country and… And then having probably having to keep it together… So, the worry is a perfect process to just keep it at a superficial level without actually losing it. But losing it is in some ways a good thing, because once you actually embrace the anxiety and the uncertainty. It just scales us down to become so much more raw and in tune with ourselves, with others. And that’s where it poses us for growth. It’s not fun, but it’s a lot more emotionally, potentially a lot more emotionally healthy. Yeah.

Jean: I love that your take on anxiety, David, it really makes you feel… You come   away from your book, I came away feeling very empowered. You know, you’re really offering… (Oh, sorry. Because we’re like. Loosey goosey, loosey goosey. That was my daughter. Sorry.) You’re coming away, I came away from from your book feeling empowered. I’m already someone that does a lot of spiritual work. So this just, um, gave more credence to looking at things a different way and not shaming yourself. That’s such a big thing. Is, um, shaming ourselves when we feel out of control or, um, and not knowing the answer. And I read this quote the other day that said. We’re so conditioned to needing to know the answer, because we’ve been validated with love. So it makes sense when we’re in school and we know the answer, we get praise and feel good.

David: Yes,

Jean: And when you don’t know the answer, you kind of sit there and you’re like, mmm, you know?

David: Like at the beginning of our conversation.

Jean: Right..Can you talk a little bit about um, you talk a lot about connection and I don’t want to lose all our time, but talk about connection that you talk about self connection, Other connectio,. Spiritual connection.

David: Yeah. That’s what it’s all about I mean, you know, what are we here to do on this, on this earth with however many, you know, years we’re blessed with? We’re here to create a life that’s meaningful and connected to others, to have a self compassion and connection with ourselves and for those who seek something spiritual, too, I think that can be a great source of meaning and purpose and solace and and wonder and awe and and love and all sorts of other good things. Um, anxiety can help facilitate all of the above. I really believe it. I think it’s part of our. You know, ancestral heritage, which is, you know, optimizes our ability if we use it in the right way and if we frame it in the right way. If you run away from anxiety,A- it’s going to get worse and B- we’ll never find these opportunities. But. When you feel overwhelmed, that’s the time to, recalibrate to rebalance. To look at your priorities. To become more self compassionate. To understand that you have your limitations and not to judge yourself, not to get upset about it. You know. And it’s usually not what we do. Usually when I feel anxious, I’m like, how can you feel that way? You’re so weak. What’s wrong with you? I have to push myself harder. I don’t want to feel these feelings. I’m going to squeeze them out by working even more, by taking on another project and showing that I’m in control. And like all of those strategies that almost everyone takes, unless you’ve been taught otherwise, are exactly 180 degrees in the wrong direction.

Alison: And so. When you talk about having more compassion because you have experienced anxiety, could you go into that a little bit? Because I thought that was really, really interesting about how you’re using it as a, you know, a superpower for good? You know?..

David: I you know, I had some experiences recently, not even recent, the last couple of years of meeting some very well established, well known, um, wealthy, successful business folks, people in industry, people in, um, in entertainment, people in athletics. You know, in my practice, there’s some higher profile folks who have come my way and the way of my practice. And, you know, some of them, they literally have the car service waiting outside, you know, on, on, on the street and the, the whole nine yards and the private chef and everything. And going through a mental health crisis for them was so jarring, so shocking, so upsetting, because everything else in their life is going beautifully. Mm. They’re flourishing in their careers, but then emotionally, they’re really struggling. But through that process, they actually learn to, like, become more accepting of themselves, more accepting of their loved ones, more accepting of their own children. And it softened them. It made them more human. More. Relatable, more connected, literally more connected. It’s it’s a humbling process to experience the throes of anxiety, the panic. Yeah. The struggle. But that’s part of many times what we need to remind us of our limitations, which is good. We need to embrace that and to lean into it as opposed to leaning away.

Jean: .. That reminds me of when. My late husband Alex would say, “You know, Jeannie, before I met you and we had the the children, my life was just ordered . I was always in control. It was just me.” And he went on to say, “you and the children have introduced a new level of fear in my life that I never knew existed.” Except he had a dog. And he said, ” A deeper connection. A deeper connection with my mother, to you and the children, with other people.” Oh, yeah- when you have children, Oh my God you know, he said it brought a whole new level of connection. Yeah, Having a family will do that.

David: Yes, Because it actually means something. Like, what do you get anxious about? You get anxious about stuff that really means something to you.

Speaker2: Right? What else do you care? Why else do you feel anxious. Unless it’s something you really care about? So part of our anxiety shows that we’re actually invested in something other than ourselves- leaning into that, it’s hard, but it sounds like that’s what you did in your family.

Alison: And you talk about converting anxiety into love.

David: And oh yeah.

Alison: That made me cry a little. We have a family member with OCD. Yeah, very, um, a very interesting journey to to witness that. And just the love that’s come from that experience is really, um. So I was hoping you could just talk about that a little bit, because I think you don’t really hear that a lot, you know?

David: So this is something I did not get from my cognitive and dialectical behavior therapy training. I got this from the exposure and experiences I got with emotionally focused therapy. In terms of couples, it’s a couple a way of treating, and it’s based on the work of John Bowlby, who was an attachment theory. He actually started attachment theory. The concept of attachment theory is that life is for love, that people are born in order to have connection, in order to have bonds, especially bonds with other people. And those bonds, those love bonds, those connections are what make our life worthwhile. They make us. They make us tick. Um, legend has it that Bowlby was going to call his theory the Theory of love, but he was in he was a British psychiatrist in the first half of the first half of the 20th century. So he thought he would have been laughed out of the Academy, which probably would have happened. So he called it attachment theory instead. And it’s stuck ever since. Anyhow, part of attachment theory is that secure attachment is when – I care about you, and I’m anxious when you’re not there, but I know that you’re there for me, and I can show you that I need you, and you will be there for me. And that occurs both in romantic relationships and also with parent child relationships, also with friends. I mean, there’s other ways that. But this is the core of it. Will you be there for me when I need you? In other words, to the extent that I can be vulnerable, show you that I care about you and that I need you, be anxious, actually expose my anxiety, scale back the facade.. as you were talking about right at the beginning, what we were talking about right at the beginning, right? Go into the kitchen, see the mess, and have you accept me and be there for me. That’s going to make us extremely close, right?

Jean: Yeah. And you articulate that beautifully, or you write about it beautifully in your book about being vulnerable.

David: This is something I’ve learned from Being married for 23 years. My wife taught me this one.

Alison: I love that. Um, I wanted to also talk about the disconnection spiral. I think, I have watched people go through that, do you know. And I just want, I would I’d like you just to kind of sum that up for our listeners, because I’ve seen it.

David: Yeah. So this happens at the level of inter intrapersonal. So our relationship with ourselves.   When people start to feel anxious, what’s their response to that today? I’ll ask you, a typical person… they start to feel anxious, and then what’s their meta response, so to speak?

Alison: I think, I think people get angry. I think I’ve seen people get angry. I just watched it about a parking spot at Trader Joe’s, uh, two days ago.   I just was like, this is what he’s talking about, you know? It just escalated and it got worse and worse and worse. And then, the one person got in the car and just started banging the wheel by themselves. And I was just thinking, they’re going down and it’s about a parking space of Trader Joe’s. And it went really far down. So that’s what I think, that people get like very angry sometimes.

David: I’m just realizing now you meant the disconnection spiral, which is our relationship with others, not our anxiety spiral, which is our relationship with ourselves?

Alison: Right?

David: Okay, so I’m going to pivot. Um, yeah, that’s exactly it. I’m getting judgmental of the other person. They’re making me feel anxious. I don’t want to show them I feel anxious, so I show them I feel angry. I covered it up. You’re the wrong person. It’s not, I need you, I really need the space because I’m running late today. Right? I’m having a terrible day. I really need the parking spot. It’s raining. I’m here with my kid… whatever. For whatever reason, it made that person very anxious. But they don’t want to show that. So they’re on their horn, right? Cursing, banging, having a temper tantrum as opposed to, like… I really could use that space. Is there any way that we can work this out? Right?

Alison: And is that what you think we should all be doing? So you’re thinking that, okay, I’m just going to use the Trader Joe’s spot thing. So two people are pulling into the same spot and I’ve seen people go hysterical. So you’re suggesting either to- somehow do inner work to pull away and know there’ll be another spot. Or are you suggesting that we go up and say, hey, I thought I was here first? I’m late. Would it be okay? Like, what do you what do you do in that minute?

David: Good question. You know, probably for a parking spot. (interruption on David’s screen – I Keep getting these, you know, hand gestures. Kind of funny. That keeps happening. I gotta keep my hands down.) So it depends on the circumstance. You know, probably for a parking spot, it might not be worth it. And some inner work might be more worthwhile, calling a loved one. You know, you can be vulnerable. It doesn’t have to be with everyone. With a stranger. It could be with a loved one. Calling someone up saying, I’m so mad. Someone just took my parking spot and now I’m running late. And now I have to do this and I’m schlepping my groceries and I’m just having such an awful, terrible day, you know? I wanted to let you know because you’re my friend, so that could be a way of managing it interpersonally, which is not what the person in front of you. Um, but I’m thinking on an airplane, that’s probably a better example. It happened to me the other day. I’m sitting in a plane and the lady behind me was having a fight with the person to my right, I mean to my left. And I’m like, she was so irate and so angry. And I think in that kind of circumstance, she could have said like he did something. He spilled a drink and it went on her stuff and he didn’t realize. It wasn’t a jerk move, but it was an accident. But she got so nervous, I think that her space was invaded, or she perceived it that way, that she got really angry and started a fight with the guy. And I think she could have said to him, like, you know, I wish you could have said something to me or, hey, you messed up my stuff because you spilled my drink. I’m letting you know. Instead, she’s like, you’re an ahole. And like, the whole plane just was very uncomfortable. Yeah. So that there could be certain circumstances where you do have to say it’s good to say something, but showing your emotions, as opposed to covering them up with anger would be the approach there.

Alison: Why don’t we do that? Like what problem with what’s the problem with that? Like what happened?

David: It’s hard to show other people that you need them.

Jean: Oh. Wow. It’s hard to show other people that you need them because…

David: It gives them a lot of power.

Jean: and goes back to being vulnerable. Vulnerable has got a connotation of weakness, when it’s really not.

David: It’s not a weakness, it’s the reality. And the reality is actually strong when you embrace it. Why do I care what this person’s doing and sit in front of me? It’s because I’m a human being and they’re a human being, and what they do affects your choices affect me.

Jean: But I think that is changing. David. I think the connotation around being vulnerable is slowly changing.

David: Let’s see what happens later in this election year. Before you bring that up, before you count your chickens. Yeah. So let’s see what hatches. I, I am not anticipating a lot more vulnerability this year, but hey, I’ve been wrong before. I’d be delighted to be wrong now.

Jean: Well, we can start in our family units.

David: That’s worthwhile.

Jean: Right? You know, and then hopefully we be the change we wish to see.

Alison: What do you think started that, though? Where did this all begin of this idea that, this is your belief, this is my belief… And so I just don’t like you. I don’t think it used to be like that.

David: John Wayne, that’s the example I brought John Wayne, who staunch Republican, and when Kennedy was, uh, elected, he said, well, I didn’t vote for him. But he’s my president and I hope he does a good job. Right. You know, when’s the last time you heard someone say anything even close to to that? You know, it’s…. And I think it does have to do with anxiety. I think it makes us so scared that other people have power and they have control, and we don’t have control over them. And we are at vulnerable because of that. And we don’t want to face that reality. It’s so scary. But I think accepting it and expressing it ironically gives us as much control as we can have, and certainly brings us more into having into the sphere of humanity and having relationships.

Alison: And I thought it was really interesting the way you discuss uncertainty, because, you know, I have kids in my 20s, Jean has kids in the in their 30s, and uh, my kids are, um, shocked when, they don’t know something. When they don’t have an answer…the idea of uncertainty for this generation. And I think you even talk about the fact that there were so many generations where they lived with uncertainty in a daily way that they were able to cope with it.

David: Yeah. You know, here’s an interesting… Here’s my take on it. I think it’s interesting. I guess I think it’s interesting for what it’s worth. My sense is that we have actually a lot less uncertainty today. And because of that, we can’t tolerate uncertainty as much. Right? During the 20th century, people did not know what was flying. Two world wars. It was the Korean War, Vietnam. There’s the Cuban missile crisis. There was the Cold War. I mean, there was literally the world was at the brink of destruction at several key political points along the way. There’s no question. And I mean, since the breakup of the Soviet Union, things have been relative. I’m not saying there has been no war. I’m not saying there’s no famine. I’m not saying there’s no, uh, social inequities. I’m not saying there’s no socioeconomic inequities. Racial disparities 100%. There are definitely social issues, pressing social issues that must be addressed. And I’m not invalidating that, however. If you compare that to the level of uncertainty, that was the level of economic uncertainty. I mean, in throughout the 20th century, it’s not even a contest. It’s not even a contest. But we have become, I think it’s because we all have these amazing devices that can go to the moon and back in 10 seconds, You can call anyone on planet. And we can we have we have air travel. You know, how many adults do you know have never been on an airplane? Right. Right. How many? How many people do you know who’ve never been to a physician? Ever? So because of that, we’ve become used to a level of certainty, apparant certainty in life that. It’s not real.

Jean: I love that you you say in your book we’re we’re at a point now where we have to be uncomfortable with Uncertainty. Um, no. We have to be comfortable with uncertainty.

David: And this, I think, I think you’ll appreciate from a spiritual perspective. Is that so bad that a human being doesn’t know or control everything?

Jean: Right. That’s, you know, like the deep, the deep surrender the humility of true surrender into the Universe, God, whatever. You know, like whatever…

David: Whatever your language is. Yeah.

Jean: And David, you also talk about being a perfectionist. That adds to perfectionism.

Speaker2: Yeah, that’s another cousin of anxiety. Yes. Um, where people are focused on the small details to maintain an illusion of control over life. Where, Who are you kidding? I mean, how much can you really control? Um, but it’s something that we, many people do.

Alison: And I thought, when you talk about the, um, what would you really love to do? I don’t think we ask ourselves that enough these days. Like where, what, where is your love or your passion really taking you? And did you find in your life that you followed what you what you loved?

David: Yes and no. There are certain things that I pursued that I only realized many years later that weren’t really something that I wanted to do, truly did. And when I struggled with those issues, that was a, you know, sort of the anxiety catching up with me that I should have faced a long time ago and really focused on just what I want, which what I’m really good at. Um…

Alison: What you’re doing now?

David: I’m trying to. I’m getting there… You know, I’m I’m trying to take my own advice on that. Um, it’s scary though. There’s so much uncertainty. Like when I’m really pursuing a dream that I actually care about. Truly care about. What if I fail?

Alison: What if I fail? And then again, would that be so bad?

David: It would.

Alison: Why would it?

David: Well, it’d be a hard pill to swallow, but I have to embrace that. That I don’t know whether things are going to work out. Um, and that’s part of how anxiety can actually make us, show us what our direction is in life. What I’m really anxious about it, it’s probably like, oh, you know what, maybe I got to be doing this. Yeah. Mhm.

Alison: I love that story of the man whose partner cheated on him. And then he ended up creating a business that helped people. But he you know helped people be aware of any kind of, you know, malfeasance in their own businesses. And I loved that because I thought, wow, you really helped that guy figure out what mattered to him and how to move forward, as opposed to just living in that place of resentment and and blame and shame. You know?

David: That to me is where spirituality comes in, you know, why did this happen? Is there a is there a greater context? And if people can start to ask those questions in psychotherapy, I think there’s a lot of great things that happen when patients want to go that route. Of course.

Alison: I think that’s always a common thing. Jean and I have talked to so many people and they all seem to say something happened and I never thought I’d recover from it. And it actually was a blessing. And they actually learned something or it took them in a different path. We’ve heard that so often. Like, you know, Anita Moorjani passed away and, you know, and came back like there were so many people that have experienced that. And so I loved that you embrace and share your spirituality, your points on spirituality in this book.

David: Thank you. A lot of the patients appreciate it too. You know, the the industry of psychotherapy dating back to the the era of Freud has been very avoidant of matters of the spirit. Um, ironically, though, psychology is literally the study of the soul. I don’t know if you know that the Latin root of psyche is soul. The irony. The irony. But that’s changed in the last 20 years. The the sort of godless, uh, industry, if you will, has changed in the last 20 years with a much more open spiritual zeitgeist. Um, and I think especially since Covid, we’ve seen it in, uh, in a large way, a lot of people are asking these questions. Therapists aren’t so afraid to go down. They’ve had the whole movement of mindfulness, the movement of 12 step programs, and AA Alcoholics Anonymous, which is based on spirituality in the realm of anxiety. You don’t see it as much. And that’s sort of where I’m trying to move things along. But nevertheless, you know, these are that’s where the state of the Union.

Jean: Yeah. How great that, you know, here you are a doctor and you’re willing to entertain, even entertain metaphysical.

David: Thank you. Um, you know, it’s definitely part of my life personally and my culture and, you know, my religious background, and I think that’s certainly shaped it. Um, and, uh, it’s also the part of many patients lives, though, that’s really where it’s the main thing . I’ve done research on this and in, uh, in eastern Massachusetts, where I live, one of the least religious enclaves in the entire country, would you believe that 60% of our patients want to speak about spiritual matters, and they want spiritual care? Incredible.

Alison: Yeah, that is incredible. Where are you in Massachusetts.

David: Boston.

Alison: Oh, really? I lived in Boston for a long time. I didn’t know, I didn’t know you were still there. That’s great.

David: Yeah, yeah. Where’d you live?

Alison: I lived right in Back Bay.

David: Yeah. Beautiful spot.

Alison: Yeah. And my mom had a house on Cape Cod, so.

David: Oh, a real New Englander. That’s like, uh.

Alison: I’m from the Bronx, so I could relate to your New York office. So, you know, is your is your anxiety office in New York still incredibly active or…?

David: Sure. Yeah. There’s the Manhattan office, Brooklyn office, couple things out there

Alison: That was really brave of you to do. And I like…

David: Brave or stupid.

David: It’s, uh. It’s been a journey. Yeah.

Jean: Okay. Well, we I would love to hear some, like 2 or 3 tips from you, David, to help someone move through anxiety.

David: Sure. Number one piece of advice that I’m going to give here is to change our relationship with anxiety, as opposed to getting rid of it. You know, we think about anxiety as a disease. You got to get rid of it. It’s going to overcome you. It’s going to eat you alive. It’s going to kill you. You know, I’ve never lost a patient to anxiety and I never will, right? Yes, It’s uncomfortable, but embracing it, allowing it to happen and changing our relationship with this ubiquitous, ubiquitous human emotion that all of us have, let’s face that and accept it is the first step to dealing with anxiety, is to accept it, understand it’s going to be part of your life. Don’t let it rule over you by trying to get rid of it, embrace it, try to understand it, and realize what it’s trying to teach you. That’s sort of my first go to. Once we have truly accepted our anxiety, I’ll give you two and three. Have you accepted your anxiety?

Alison: Yes, I’ve accepted that.

Jean: Yes, right now I did. Yes, I saw my. My white flag is up. I surrender to my anxiety, I surrender.

David: Once you raise the white flag, I like that, once you raise your white flag to anxiety. Um, got a couple of things to say. You know, the number one. Uh, it was really number two. Um, I think it’s such a great tool for enhancing our relationships with others when we can express our raw emotions to them. Um. Part of what I learned. Part of what I was talking about my wife before Miri. Part of what Miri has taught me, She’s taught me many things… One thing she’s taught me is that it actually is a sign of strength. To be able to acknowledge when I’m having a bad day. As opposed to just, you know, pretending that everything is all right. And to be able to come to her and to be able to talk about my feelings and to be able to show her that I actually need someone to be there for me. Right? That’s an greatly enhanced our relationship. That’s converting anxiety into love. As we were speaking about a little bit before. So I don’t think you have to do this with everyone. I don’t think it has to be on your Facebook page or Instagram posts or it maybe, but I don’t think it needs to be a public image. But I do think they have to be 1 or 2 people in this world that you can actually convert anxiety into love with by showing them how you really feel and letting them be there for you. That’ll enhance your connection. And another one. I guess I told you I’d give you three years. Another one is when you’re pursuing a dream, you will feel anxious. Because you care about it. We spoke about this a little before two. Which means that the experience of anxiety in of itself is not necessarily a bad thing. It might be an indication, actually, that you’re on the right route.

Alison: Mm. That’s great. Yeah. And I love I really appreciate you and I love all the work that you’re doing. I wish that I wish I was your patient.

David: It’s very kind of you to say thank you.

Jean: You wrote a wonderful book. There’s something for everyone.

Alison: And I was reading it in a waiting room, and I realized the cover is so great.. And two people were like, what’s that about? How do you do that? And I was like, you gotta, you gotta go get it. But it’s pretty great. Yeah.

David: So I can listen to your podcast. They can also get a 12 page free guide on my website, by the way, which all your listeners are able to get. Um, so that is available to anyone. And I can send you the link. You can put it in the show notes. DHROSMARIN.COM Is my website, and, uh, I think it’s on the home page. Um, there’s a link to the book, and you can get a 12 page free guide. Um, I’d love to hear from people. My, you know, I read the comments that come through on the website and respond to many of them. And so, um, I love engaging with people about this topic. It’s just a great topic and an important one.

Alison: If we think of more things or, or another book comes out of your wonderful mind, can we call you again?

David: Please do. I don’t know if I’m working on another book just yet. Don’t make me anxious or stressed. Um, but I definitely, um, so grateful to to meet you.

Alison: Great. Maybe after the election will give you a call or during. Thank you so much. We appreciate it.

Jean: Thank you, you’re a wonderful guest, and many blessings to you and your family. And say hi to your wife.

David: Thank you. We’ll do. Goodbye. Take care.

Alison: The really interesting thing about this interview was that I was late and David was having technical issues. And so we’re starting the interview about anxiety with anxiety, which was just like, I’m like, I’m almost there, Jean…. Hang on. You know, that’s right.

Jean: I did think I was like, wow, this is so interesting that that this is occurring. But you know what? We made it. And what a great interview. Um, David is, was really lovely to talk with. And, um, he’s got a gentle side to him too. Yeah.

Alison: And he, um, it was a very different interview in that he’s like that. He had that little quiz for us. He asked us that question and we both just sit there nodding and he’s like, well, what do you think? I’m right. Go ahead. Right. Pick up your pencils and begin. You know. So he was great I liked him. He was funny and, um, very relaxed and, um, I love that he’s taking a different tact and showing us that we all have anxiety and that it’s just a part of it and how you can work with it.

Jean: Right. And he he offers to anyone, as he said, “If the listeners want, they may reach out to me.” and that meant a lot to me. How gracious of him to to offer that. So if you are someone that would like to talk to a wonderful doctor schooled in anxiety, here’s your guy.

Alison: So thriving with anxiety. And you know, I’ve had some stressful stuff come up since we’ve interviewed him. And I have really used his tips about making connections, about being vulnerable, about having compassion for myself. And it’s very helpful. So I suggest taking a gander at Thriving With Anxiety. Yes, there I go. I feel very relaxed.

Jean: Wow, that was a mouthful.

Alison: It was okay. Bye everybody.

Alison Martin: Jean loves our theme song.

Jean Trebek: I do.

Alison Martin: You really, really do.

Jean Trebek: It’s just happy. And speaking about happy…

Alison Martin: What?

Jean Trebek: We are talking to Doctor Norman Rosenthal about defeating SAD.

Alison Martin: And when I saw this book, I thought he just meant, like, sad, like, don’t be sad.

Jean Trebek: Did you know the acronym of SAD?

Alison Martin: I did, but I didn’t put it together. Seasonal affective disorder.

Jean Trebek: Yeah.

Alison Martin: Which is what happens when we don’t get enough light, right?

Jean Trebek: Right.

Alison Martin: Yeah. Which is so interesting because a lot of people really feel the difference in the winter.

Jean Trebek: Yeah. I mean, I think that’s why there are so many tanning beds and things like that, like up in Seattle, Washington, and up in the, uh, countries that are closer to the north.

And this book is so interesting because he talks about this in a very, um, accessible way. Like he’d never become so clinical that you’re like, what’s he saying?

Jean Trebek: No, he was a real delight to talk with. Yes. Well, said Alison, he was not so medical that you were just like, what? And he also gives great tips on how to move through the seasonal affective disorder.

Alison Martin: That’s right. And he, you know, the use of lamps and exercise and camaraderie and therapy. He just and he is so I loved talking to him.

Jean Trebek: Yeah.

Alison Martin: He reminded me of people that I love like family members, you know.

Jean Trebek: Yes.

Alison Martin: And he loves poetry.

Jean Trebek: That’s the other beautiful thing about this man. Here’s this highly intellectual human and he has time for that creative side, that beauty of poetry. And I think he really found his sweet spot. I think poetry really lights him up.

Alison Martin: Yeah. Me too. And he talks about it the interview. So. And the end is so special. Listen to the end where he reads a poem to us. It gave me um, I got teary eyed.

Jean Trebek: Yeah.

Alison Martin: He gave me the chills. All right, here he comes. Thank you. Norman, here you come.

Norman Rosenthal: Hello.

Jean Trebek: Oh, hi. Doctor Rosenthal.

Norman Rosenthal: So great to meet the two of you. Finally.

Alison Martin: Yes. How do you feel?

Norman Rosenthal: Oh, I am much better. Thank you. Um, you know, these post-Covid colds are, um, quite nasty.

Alison Martin: I agree, I think because we’ve not been outside with other people much.

Norman Rosenthal: Exactly. Our immune systems are, like, naive and they’re not used.

Jean Trebek: Yeah. They’re like what? What’s that? Yeah.

Alison Martin: I’m. Alison.

Norman Rosenthal: Hi, Alison. Hi.

Jean Trebek: I’m Jean.

Norman Rosenthal: Hey, Jean. Nice to meet the two of you.

Jean Trebek: Very nice to meet you, doctor..Your your book defeating sad is so interesting.

Norman Rosenthal: Oh. Thank you.

Alison Martin: Really? We both read the whole thing, and it’s very, very. You’re such an interesting, um, man, could you tell us how you got involved in in really taking on, uh, so much interest in sad. And could you explain what it is for our listeners?

Norman Rosenthal: Absolutely. You know, it’s been like a step by step process. It’s been a step by step process. I came to this country from South Africa, which is climatically, a lovely country, very sunny, uh, you know, very mild. The seasons are not radical from one to another and came to do my psych residency in New York City. And the first summer was wonderful. The long days. I never had such long days in my life. And then when autumn came, uh, when the daylight savings time change came, I just didn’t know what hit me. Mm. I came out of work that first day, and everything was dark, and there was a cold wind coming off the Hudson, and I thought, wow, this is something I have never experienced before. And so it went for three years. I had these wonderful summers and these really difficult winters, and I thought, something is changed here. Something is different compared to what it was in South Africa. So I came to join a research group here at the National Institute of Mental Health and that is, um, Bethesda, Maryland.

Norman Rosenthal: And once here, Once here I started working with rhythms, biological rhythms, mood, depression and light and came across an engineer who had experienced these same seasonal problems worse than me. And we took him during one of his winters, expanded his light and out he came from his depression. It was wonderful to to behold. And so I thought, well, you know, we’ve really got a story here. I have felt it myself. Now I see it in somebody else. And we need to find more people like this. But I checked around and psychiatrists had not seen it. Or at least they had seen it, but they hadn’t identified it. And so what I thought was, you’ve got to go straight to the public and ask them for if they’ve ever had it and seen it. And at that point, you know, advertising via the media for patients was like chasing ambulances. Yeah. So but nevertheless, we got thousands of people. And from the people who sent back their questionnaires, I pulled together the syndrome that we now known that we now know as Sad or seasonal affective disorder.

Alison Martin: Wow. That’s. That’s amazing. Do you, um, do you use. And in the book, you explain the use of a lightbox. And do you use one?

Norman Rosenthal: Yes, I definitely do. Every morning, uh, in this particular season, I come and I look at the news on the, on the computer and do my word games to make sure my brain is still working and, and, um, good news is that it seems to be. And and so, um, I use it every morning and, um, it really makes a difference. And my patients, I recommend it widely. Uh, and there are all kinds of people who can benefit from it, and we can talk more about that. This lightbox is like a computer, maybe a little bigger. And it sits in front of you and emanates a lot of light and much more than you’d get from a regular bedside lamp or a ceiling light. And this is what’s making the biological change. But of course, as you’ve read the book, you’ll see there are lots of other things that you can do that make a difference as well.

Jean Trebek: Right? Um, can you explain why light has such an impact?

Norman Rosenthal: Oh well, you can explain it in different ways. Remember, we evolved with light and dark. Um, you know, the early bird catches the worm. So it’s early because there’s dawn, there’s light around. It’s going to see the worm in the light of dawn. Now, of course, not such good news for the worm, but in any event, uh, we evolve with light and dark. And these were the time cues that enabled us to function in a world where light and dark are changing. And so just as they change in the day. So they change across the year. And so, um, maybe in the winter, we needed to be in our caves or in our dark places. Uh, there was very little food around. We needed to, uh, nurture our resources. And so the kind of hibernation that you see in animals happens in a kind of attenuated way, in a sort of weakened way in humans. And so with these, the day, the day and night rhythms of dark and light and the seasonal rhythms of short days and long days, we have evolved to incorporate these rhythms into our biology so that we function as best we can in a changing world.

Alison Martin: So that so interesting, because that’s what I was thinking when I was reading. If if we’ve evolved with this, why aren’t our contemporary brains used to it?

Norman Rosenthal: Well because we evolved over thousands and thousands of years, and our contemporary brains are geared to a society that’s only been working in this way for hundreds of years. And so we are still left with our old biology. However, we’ve tinkered with it, and the arrival of indoor lighting like the electric light has greatly changed how we live our lives. And even if you read reports of letters written in the Civil War time, before there was light all over the house and everywhere, um, you will find that sleep has changed over the time since the Civil War. However, um, for people with Sad, there is a decreased sensitivity to the light so that the ordinary indoor light may not be enough to keep them functioning well all year round.

Alison Martin: And did I understand correctly that in this book that there’s a difference between, uh, like a blue toned light and a yellow toned light? Did I understand that correctly? And could you explain that to me? Because I’m like, like, is the sun a blue tone?

Norman Rosenthal: No, no. Um, the sun generates full spectrum light because our spectrum that we’re used to is calibrated around the sunlight. Uh, so you’ll know if you go into a store to buy clothes and you want to see what the real color is, you want to see it in full spectrum light, right? Because if you see it in light that’s toned with a blue or a pink, it might look like this and that and then you buy this, by the outfits, and you take it out. And this isn’t what it looked like at all. So people have to sell it in the, in the full spectrum sunlight. Uh, so it’s it’s not blue. It’s not pink. It’s a nice balanced spectrum. In our attempt to replicate that with our ceiling lights and other lights, um, we create lights that are a little shifted this way or that way, but the light that we use for therapeutic purposes is the ordinary full spectrum light, or, um, it’s not loaded towards the blue or any particular color. It is just, um, an ordinary white light.

Alison Martin: Oh that’s interesting.

Jean Trebek: And so, doctor, can you also share with our listeners some other tips that help boost your the serotonin and the dopamine in your brain if you don’t have a light box readily available?

Norman Rosenthal: Definitely, definitely. Well, the one that is easiest is right at your front door and that is exercise. If you go walking…this is something I add in my own program. I add this to, I sit in front of the lights like I told you, and then I, I go walking fast up and down hills and I get a lot of light and an aerobic effect. And that’s a potent thing that you can do. Um, I work out and not only is the aerobic exercise helpful, but the strength training is helpful. These have got it now. Turns out very strong antidepressant effects. Mm. So that’s another thing you can do that’s very easy to do. You can have a room in your house. That’s your Florida room or whatever you want to call it that is painted light shades on the wall that’s got colored throws and colored scatter cushions and you just want to be there. You put bring a couple of plants in it, a couple of orchids, and wow, you’re already feeling better. So these are just a few little tips. And of course we can go all the way from there. There is, um, a special kind of therapy called cognitive behavior therapy or CBT, which is wonderful for Sad.

Norman Rosenthal: And and studies have actually shown this. For example, you know, when you’re feeling in your winter mode, you feel like a stick in the mud. You don’t feel like going out. You don’t feel like doing stuff. Um, maybe you even feel a little sorry for yourself. And that’s actually not good for you. I mean, I’m not talking in any absolute or moral sense, but it’s not good for your well-being. Because if you can maintain your connections with people, your social engagements, your activities, that’s much better. So that’s the behavioral part. You make lunch arrangements, you go see friends, uh, you go places, you do good things, and that keeps you feeling more cheerful. And then, of course, there is working with your thinking, the cognitive part of cognitive behavior therapy. Because a lot of times people think, uh, thoughts that make them depressed. Um, an example that I like is, let’s say I call a friend out and I say, hey, would you like to come to dinner this evening? And they say. Sorry. No, I can’t come this evening. And they don’t say, well, what about another evening? Or I’d love to, or why don’t you join us wherever we’re going, they just leave it at that. It’s kind of neutral.

Norman Rosenthal: It’s not bad, but it’s not really encouraging. And then if you’re in a depressed mode, you can go and say, wait a second. That person doesn’t really like me. They don’t really want to go to dinner with me. And, you know, come to think of it, I don’t think anybody really likes me. And I don’t think people are going to want to come to dinner with me, and I’m going to be all alone. You see how you’re going off to the races like that with negative thoughts and cognitive therapy says, wait a second, what are the other reasons why this person might not have come or be, you know, maybe they’ve got another arrangement, maybe they’re feeling lousy, maybe something awful has happened in their lives and they just didn’t want to tell you about it. So many things could be happening that have got nothing to do with you. And so what do we do about it? Well, try a couple more people, see if somebody might want to come put your hypothesis to the test that nobody wants to come with you. And sure enough, you call a couple of people and somebody says, wow, that’s great. I’m sitting miserable here at home and I’d love to come to dinner with.

Alison Martin: Um, I was wondering, you talk about females having SAD, a propensity for SAD, more than males, and I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about that for our listeners.

Norman Rosenthal: Yeah, we’ve seen it and everybody’s seen it. Um, quite, uh, commonly is 3 or 4 to 1 females to males. So it’s quite a big difference. That is very likely due to the female reproductive cycle because one can speculate that in times gone by, when we didn’t have central heating and lights and all kinds of things, people had to be in their dark caves, and maybe the women had to be there when they were pregnant, giving, holding on to their babies. And the men had to be out in the fields. And maybe it evolved in such a way that the women were more inclined to be slowed down and in a more hibernating like mode in the winter, and the men less so. And maybe that’s just what was best for the survival of the group.

Alison Martin: Right! You know, when I, when I first, when we first came across you and I thought, oh, this will be interesting because I definitely don’t have this. That’s what I thought. I really look forward to the winter. I look forward to the summer. I love it all. But then when I read your book, I have so many of the symptoms. So is it possible, like I gain weight in the winter. I just want to stay inside. I want to be cozy. I could binge a series and be happy. And I’m wondering, could you have Sad and still be happy at Christmas and still be looking forward to the season? You understand my question?

Norman Rosenthal: I do, I do it’s a it’s a very interesting point because, you know, some people are happier people. There’s no doubt about it. They’ve got friends, they’ve got activities, they like things, and they may still have some of the vegetative symptoms slowing down, needing more sleep, eating more, gaining weight. And other people may have those plus the mood symptoms. Yeah. Um, so I’ve seen both kinds. And then what also happens is there’s another major factor in the mix and that is stress. Um, because that person who’s happy, who’s bingeing on the series, if all of a sudden they were settled with a deadline and some very heavy work that they had to do, and they’re not really on top form, and they’ve got things that they’re going to be judged and found wanting, you could change and become quite down. Yes. And that’s why one of the pieces of advice I give people is don’t work on a deadline that expects you to get your product in by the end of the winter. Rather, I gave myself a deadline here at the end of August. I didn’t give it the end of December because for various reasons, but a lot of it was I didn’t want to be stuck with a serious deadline when I was feeling slowed down.

Alison Martin: That’s great. Yes.

Jean Trebek: That’s a great act of love.

Alison Martin: Yes. Yeah.

Norman Rosenthal: As they say, you’ve got to be kind to your future self.

Jean Trebek: That’s so true. That’s exactly right. So I just want to switch gears for a moment and leave Sad and move into your love of poetry. Um. You wrote a beautiful book called The RX of Poetry. Did that evolve out of a way for you to be creative and help your your Sad, you know, the feeling of hibernation? Or were you always someone that was interested in in poetry?

Norman Rosenthal: Yeah. You know. As I’ve been talking, um, with people, more and more people have asked questions about my poetry RX book. And to me that is so thrilling. And I’ll tell you why. Because that book was roundly rejected by editors, uh, agents. They said there’s just no money in poetry and we’re not interested in it. And, um. I just had a feeling because I knew that poetry always meant so much to me, and I just had a feeling if I could just write it in the right way, that it would be accessible to people, they could really gain something from this, just as I have. So at that time, Jane Brody was the columnist, very prominent columnist for The New York Times, and she had written some very nice articles on my different books. And I contacted her and she said, poetry doesn’t do anything for me. I said, well, would you at least take a look at my manuscript? Well, you can send it, but I can’t get to it any time soon. You know, I was getting yes, I know we’ve done work together, so I’ll be polite and I’ll just give you the time of day. But don’t expect anything from me. So I didn’t even have a PDF. I had a Xerox copy of this book and I fedexed it to her. All the old technology coming through, I fedexed it to her and it was within half a day and I got an email back. Change of plans – I want to interview you tomorrow… It’s poetry Month and we’re going to we’re going to do this. And she wrote a column. I’ve never had anybody write such a loving column. And she said, look, I, I thought poetry meant nothing to me. But then I realized that my late husband was a lyricist and words were his daily diet. And, um. I just want to tell you that I’ve really, totally changed my mind on this subject, and I mean that to me, to get that from somebody I respected so much. And then I had to figure out a way to do it. So what I did was I divided it up into five sections. Have I sent you a copy of my poetry book? Do you have one?

Alison Martin: We got it. We just bought it

Norman Rosenthal: Oh my goodness. I’m I’m sorry to incur the –

Jean Trebek: No, no, we we just were so interested in it.

Norman Rosenthal: But there are five sections. The one is called Loving and losing. The one is a response to nature. It’s called that inward eye. Uh, then there’s the human experience. Then there is design for living, uh, and, uh, the search for meaning. And the last piece is aging and dying. Mm. And they’re 50 poems. And, um, I, I have heard so many people say – this means a lot to me – I keep it at my bedside. I read this, I read that. It’s been like one of the great, um, rewards of that I’ve ever written, because every poem I put out, the poem, I like the poem to be right up front so that nothing is there to distract you. And then I write – this is what I think the poem means. But you may be different. These are the takeaway points that you can get specific takeaway points from this poem. And um, then you know, who was the poet? How did she or he come to write this particular poem? And, um… each one. It makes sense that this one wrote this poem, that that one wrote that poem. And the whole sweep of human experience in my mind is encompassed in these 50 little gems. And, um. If ever you felt like doing another podcast or even just chatting, I can’t even tell you how moved I am that you have found this to be so meaningful. It makes me so happy.

Alison Martin: It’s so beautiful. You know, the we get the New Yorker, my husband and I, and there’s always little poems in the New Yorker, and it’s like a lost art. My parents were newspaper reporters, so I’m so used to that type of writing. But these and the way I love that, I think you say, um, read it out loud. Mhm. And um, that is so important and that advice really. I went back and read some of the New Yorker poems that way because when, when you read it. Allowed. It really changed the meaning. I thought that was a beautiful piece of advice that you gave.

Jean Trebek: Absolutely right. I to you. And you gave more than just reading your poem out loud. Um, the tips you give to really embrace the poem, the poetry and the author. And you close the gap of separation. You’re you. You help the reader become part of the experience of this poetry. It’s so beautiful.

Norman Rosenthal: Thank you. Yeah.

Alison Martin: Are you a poet?

Norman Rosenthal: You know I am not a poet. I did try and write poetry way back when, but. That wasn’t how my mind worked. I was more a scientist and I was more analytical. And that’s why I’ve taken my analytical skills and I’ve combined them with my love of poetry. But I can say I am in awe of what these people did in so few lines. Yeah, um, I don’t know if you remember, but this one just comes to mind. You know, when the challenger shuttle exploded. Peggy Noonan – the speech writer – gave a wonderful line to Ronald Reagan to give to commemorate the people who died. And what he said was the line – they have slipped the surly bonds of earth. Mm. And, um. The poem that the poem from which that comes is called High Flight, and it’s one of the 50 poems, and it is a young pilot in the Second World War who basically is so thrilled at the sensation and experience of flying. That he pushed his limits too much. And that was the last flight, or at least very close to the last flight. And I actually interviewed a pilot asking him, what is this experience? How do you feel? He says, it’s a wonderful feeling to be just on the top of the clouds and bumping up against these big, white, massive things and so each one, if you’d read this poem, um, apparently the TV always used to close with this particular poem being read late at night. That was how they would close routinely. I have slipped the surly bonds of earth.

Alison Martin: It’s beautiful.

Jean Trebek: I really appreciate when you read or hear a piece of poetry that makes you pause. Because everything’s so quick lately, you know, we’re expected to do so much and answer so quickly with our texts and, um, emails. But poetry really helps me kind of take a breath and take in what’s really going on most. So I want to say that I really admire that you are this scientist…You’ve really developed the analytical brain and you’ve really given so much back. And at the same time, you have this great love for the arts.

Norman Rosenthal: Well thank you. I actually feel enormously privileged to have had the opportunity to do some of these things. It’s like, you know, I came from South Africa, I came to America because I thought that’s where I could really make the biggest contributions. And this country has been really wonderful to me, and I am endlessly grateful.

Alison Martin: That’s so good to hear, because I think we’re living through a time where, um, there are so many opposing views. So to hear somebody say that the country has been good to them gives me chills. Was that line of one of your favorite poems or do you actually have another poem that is your favorite?

Norman Rosenthal: Well, you know, it’s like and I always think of it as like, if you have several children and somebody says, which is your favorite, right? You know, I’ll tell you something that I’ve realized lately, because I will read a poem to a friend or to somebody. And what I’ll feel is the emotion that’s embedded in the poem. I experience it every single time. It’s like, what is this magic that it doesn’t get stale, it doesn’t get old, it doesn’t get hackneyed? Yeah…if you read the same poem every single day, then okay. But you come back to your favorites and, and, you know, they have a, they have a deep way of getting deep inside you. I even, you know, I find even sometimes a tear or two come into my eyes and I think, oh my God, are you getting old and sentimental? Then I say, it’s just emotions. It’s just feelings. They’re not going to hurt anybody, you know?

Alison Martin: That’s sweet. What do you do? Like, do you have any sort of, um, any sort of grounding practice or spiritual practice that you could share with our listeners?

Norman Rosenthal: I do. I do I meditate every single day and it’s transcendental meditation. And the way it works is that you think a mantra, and you’re taught to do it. You think a mantra and in such a way that it takes you into a deep place in your mind. And it’s a profound rest, but it’s also a renewal. Uh, it’s not mindfulness. You don’t have to concentrate or focus on anything. Um, and it’s just in the meaninglessness and the glory of this space, you can renew yourself every single day. And when that happened to me, I’d first learned this as a young man in South Africa and, um, from a pretty young woman. And, um, I and I’ll tell you more about it because there’s a history there. And, um, I didn’t take her very seriously. We were all doing it. The Beatles had just gone to India. They’d gone to Maharishi. We all thought it was cool. And then I let it drop. 35 years later, I’m sitting in my practice and talking to a young man with bipolar disorder. And he tells me, you know what makes me happy most of the time is this practice, and you need to learn it. And he kind of nagged me. And, you know, I thought, sometimes the universe talks to you. Yes. And it can talk to you through a strange person. You wouldn’t even, you know, you can learn from anybody. I thought this man is really telling you something you need to pursue. And I renewed my technique. And this time it stuck. And I was so excited by what the potential for this technique is that I’ve written two books on that subject – Transcendence was the first one and Supermind was the second one. And in Supermind, I interviewed about 600 people who had been long standing meditators just to think of what was it that… How did they stay with the meditation? What did the meditation do for them?  I was fortunate to be able to talk to some amazing people – a Prima Ballerina in the New York City Ballet who was having fainting spells that were jeopardizing her career. She learns the technique and now she can dance. She doesn’t need to take a medicine. She stopped having fainting spells. Her physiology steadied and stabilized and on and on and on. A baseball pitcher that I worked with who fell off the, uh, postseason roster because his baseball, uh, floundered, got back onto his meditation again and got into the next postseason game and was able to be part of the winning team. And he had been crucial in helping them win the World Series. And one time I was visiting LA, he was there and he called me and he said, look, are you in your hotel room? I said, yeah, he said, can I just stop by? I said, sure, stopped by with a World Series ring. Um, one of these rings that they celebrate. And so, so, you know, out of the blue, marvelous things happen and wonderful things come if you just do the right thing, you know, that’s beautiful.

Alison Martin: That’s amazing. Yeah.

Jean Trebek: Yeah.

Alison Martin: Do you, you know, we just something funny that you said that the universe sometimes speaks to you through different people. We just interviewed Lorna Byrne, who, um, talked. Do you know who Lorna Byrne is? She talks to angels, and she’s been doing it all her life. And it’s so interesting. She’s in Ireland and just this beautiful, this beautiful person. And, um, she said exactly what you said. And it’s interesting hearing it come from scientists like you. And then someone that’s, you know, speaking to angels that sometimes the universe really can speak to you in ways through other people, and just to be open and receptive and curious, it sounded like you just went back to your curiosity about what this could do for you.

Norman Rosenthal: Yes, yes. That’s right. And and you’ve got to have a kind of an innocence about you, a sort of humility. I went back to South Africa. And for a visit. And there. I saw the young lady who had taught me originally. Now – an amazing, uh, powerful woman who’s taught probably more people TM than any other person. Probably, I don’t know, I haven’t counted, but she’s been there like 50 years teaching TM in Johannesburg and, um. You know. So I’m coming down to the TM center. They had a little event. And I’m sort of just, you know, sometimes you get into a little glum mood and I’m thinking, why do you work so hard on these books? Who reads these books? You know, it’s a bit of a pity party, as they say that I was having an open my email. And there is a letter from this woman, Vickie Broome, and she said, I just want you to know, we’re all having a sort of seminar on your poetry book this evening.

Alison Martin: Wow.

Norman Rosenthal: And I just wanted to share with you that we were all chatting about it, chatting about you, and we thought you might want to know. Isn’t that amazing?

Alison Martin: Beautiful. That’s great.

Jean Trebek: You know, that’s lovely.

Norman Rosenthal: So, um, you know, the world can sometimes be a very astonishing place, can sometimes be very harsh. But here in our space over here, uh, you’ve recreated some of the joy that you can experience just from being curious or being creative or or the joy of people talking to each other in ways that feel meaningful and fun and mutually creative and supportive.

Alison Martin: I know that I would like to, I think Jean would to like to, take you up on after we finish the entire poetry book, maybe we could take you up on going through it and having another discussion. Would that be something that you would be…?

Norman Rosenthal: Well, yes. With one. Small caveat don’t feel you need to go through the whole thing, okay? Because you’re setting a big goal for yourself and then you’ll feel, well, we haven’t really gone through this and we haven’t really gone through. Just as soon as you feel like it, okay, that’s the time to contact me.

Alison Martin: Perfect. And I’m not going to say I’m going to do it by the end of winter.

Norman Rosenthal: No… do it whenever it’s not one of those. It’s not a sort of obligation. It’s got to be a pleasure, you know? And, um. I would just love to read you anything just so that we have a poem to to close the.

Alison Martin: Oh, I would love that. That would be great.

Norman Rosenthal: Would you like that poem High Flight?

Alison Martin: Yes, please.

Norman Rosenthal: All right. It’s not very long. It’s a it’s a sonnet. A lot of these poems are sonnets because they’re short. Um. The chapter heading is The Enduring Thrill of the Moment. High Flight by John Gillespie Magee, Jr. Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of earth. And danced the skies on laughter, silvered wings. Sunward, I’ve climbed and joined the tumbling mirth of sunlit clouds. And done a hundred things you have not dreamed of. Wheeled and scared and swung high in the sunlit silence. Hovering there I’ve chased the shouting wind along, and flung my eager craft through footless halls of air. Up, up the long, delirious burning blue. I’ve touched the windswept heights with easy grace. Where never loch or even eagle flew. And while with silent lifting mind, I’ve tried the high and trespassed sanctity of space. Put out my hand and touched the face of God.

Alison Martin: Thank you.

Norman Rosenthal: And that is his legacy. You know, I call it the Enduring Thrill of the Moment because it was just a moment and he captured it, and he mailed this poem to his parents, and he didn’t live much longer. But his poem and his mind and his spirit live forever. Really.

Jean Trebek: Yes. So true.

Alison Martin: Yes. That is… You’re so… You’re so gentle. Thank you so much for this. You’re really so wonderful.

Norman Rosenthal: Oh, thank both of you. It’s been such a treat. And, um, have a good evening.

Jean Trebek: And we’ll reach out to you again soon.

Jean Trebek: Yeah. Please do, whenever it works for you. Okay.

Alison Martin: Thank you so much. That was bye bye. Have a great day.

Norman Rosenthal: You too. Thank you.

Alison Martin: I so enjoyed him because even if you don’t suffer from Sad, he gave us so many tips in the book and in the interview and how to just feel comfortable in your own shoes, right? You know, through it all.

Jean Trebek: Yes. I mean, I noticed things that he talked about that I do on my own just walking in nature, or I do like to sit out in the sun a little bit or talk to my friends. And, and I always feel better. So, um, he was he was wonderful.

Alison Martin: And and the beauty of wrapping it up with that, with that poetry at the end, I found, I found that so moving. And since speaking to him and he, you know, he suggests you read poetry out loud, right? Which I think is such an excellent tip because since I’ve been doing that, we get the New Yorker in the, in the house here, and there’s always poems in it, and when you do it out loud, you say it out loud. It really hits you a different way.

Jean Trebek: Right? Well, you even taught me that, Alison, when we would write emails together to somebody, you you would say, let’s read it out loud. And it does tt helps.

Alison Martin: You see you see what the people are hearing. I just loved him. And, um, me too. I, I, I hope that you got something out of it, even if you don’t have sad.

Jean Trebek: Exactly. And his book on poetry is beautiful. He has it, uh, organized in a wonderful way that you can, um, look up, let’s say, grief. And then he offers a poem that relates to grief. I mean, it’s very generous of him.

Alison Martin: Yeah. Really beautiful. Look him up, Norman Rosenthal. And that’s it. We hope you we hope you aren’t sad.

Jean Trebek: Are not sad. I hope you’re happy.

Alison Martin: That’s right. We hope you’re happy. Have a great day. Thanks for listening.

Alison: Okay. Is this recording?

Alison: Oh, it is, it is. Yay, yay! Here we are. Hello, Jean. Hi. It’s been some time.

Jean: Yes.

Alison:  We’ve been on a little break. And, um, you went to New York to see family?

Jean: I did, it was beautiful, I loved it, I love going to New York, visiting my son Matthew in Harlem, New York. And, uh, then I hung out with my sister and my mother. So it was a beautiful trip.

Alison: That’s lovely. And, uh, and I pretty much hung out with my family here, so it was great. I loved it. And today we’re talking about someone amazing.

Jean: Okay. His name is Brad Aronson, and he really is, uh, a champion for spreading kindness. And look at his book, Human Kind. It’s beautiful.

Alison: Changing the world, one small act at a time. And that’s what it is. Just a, um, a bunch of stories about people doing good in the world, from small to big, right? To like, you know, driving a kid home from school to, like, doing large organizations.

Jean: Exactly, and he’s so fits our insidewink motto, just sharing the good in the world. And you know what we focus on increases. So this is a great interview.

Alison: It is  wonderful. And I think, um, I think what I was so impressed by him is that his family had started from a very young age with him to impress upon him the need of kindness and helping others, which I think is great because you can see that now he’s carried it through in his life, right?

Jean: Absolutely. And he talks about that in the book and in the interview.

Alison: So let’s listen right now.

Speaker2: Hello, Well I’m Jean, I’m Allison.

Alison: It’s so nice to meet you.

Brad: Great to meet you guys as well. Thanks for having me.

Jean: Thank you for being with us today, Brad.

Alison: What an Amazing book.

Brad: Thank you.

Alison: Oh, my gosh, it was just. I read it so quickly because your stories are so beautiful.

Brad: Well, thanks, I appreciate that.

Jean: Yea..and I have a list of people that are going to receive this for the holidays, so, um it’s great. Beautiful. So, Brad, we thought we would start out with a question about how you were raised. How was your family life that you became this champion for kindness?

Brad: So, you know, I was really fortunate. Uh, my dad is probably the nicest person I know. So when we were kids, I remember going to the supermarket and someone stopped me and being like, are you Joe Aronson’s son? And, you know, you’re always taught, like, not to talk to strangers. I’m like, hey, uh, he’s like, your dad is the nicest guy. And that was all. I have no idea who it was, but like that, that stuck with me from from that supermarket, uh, experience. And I remember, like, one of our neighbors would always come over and give my dad tools, and I had no idea, like, my dad is the least handy person ever. But we had all these tools in the basement. And I asked him, like, dad, why is Mister Shukto bringing over all these tools? And he said, well, you know, I help him out with his taxes because my dad was an accountant and I don’t charge him and he wants to do something. So he brings tools. And, you know, I accept them as a gift because he’s really happy that I accept them. And I feel like I just learned so much through watching my dad. Uh, and, you know, that was a big part of my upbringing. And then there was a point, I think it was junior high where my mom told my brother and I, she said, you guys have it too good. You have no idea. You both need to start volunteering. And I started volunteering at this program called Buddies. It was for kids who had lost a parent or had some sort of really serious family trauma. And it’s when I realized, like, oh my gosh, there’s there’s all these people who had really bad luck happened to them, and it was so unfair. And that kind of got me passionate about being engaged in service and specifically with mentoring with kids like that. That is my passion. That’s what I love doing, and I think so my parents really played a huge role in letting me see the opportunities there.

Alison: And is your brother similar to you?

Brad: Yes. He’s very involved in service. Uh, and a very nice, nice person.

Alison: You’ve done so much and I’m and God bless you and your family and your friends. Your your personal story about your wife’s journey is so  beautiful because it’s so vulnerable. And I think sometime we live in a culture, I think sometimes that is afraid for people to ask for help. And and here in your book, I felt, um, that you allowed that to happen and people offered. And it opened up a whole world for you. Could you describe that a little bit to our listeners?

Brad: Absolutely. And I’d say I was really bad at asking for help. Uh, like I’d always been a helper. And that was the first time I felt like in my life where I really needed help. Uh, and people would come and be like, like, let me know what I could do for you. And I was like, yeah, I’ll get back to you. And I would never call them, right? Uh, like, I was just felt like I was so drowning. I didn’t know what to ask. And I felt a little bit guilty also. Uh, which there was no reason to feel guilty. Like people wanted to help. But I still felt bad. And then people just started stepping up and doing things, and that’s when it clicked. It was like, I really need this, right? So, you know, someone called and said, look, I’m picking your kid up from school. I realize you’re making the juggle. So Mia (Brad’s wife) was in the hospital. She was in the hospital inpatient, uh, for a month. So I would go stay with her in the hospital and then be running to try to pick Jack, my son, up from school and not lose track, you know? And then I taught as well.  So I’d be teaching, and, you know, I’d forget what day it was…and you’re just like, you’re in this like nonstop. And  people just reached out and I’ve talked to a lot of people who are going through really rough times, obviously, because the book is about people who were this small act of kindness changes their lives. So they’ve been through a rough time. What I hear quite often is that when people just do things, it makes a difference. There’s this whole group of people who are like, don’t know how to ask for help. And what we also all saw is that, like when we went through our traumas, people just came out of the woodwork. It didn’t have to be someone that I was close with, just someone I knew, someone I worked with was like, hey, here’s what I’m going to do. And it just changed our lives. And it really made me such a more thoughtful helper. Like, I changed how I help other people because I realized, oh my goodness, like, I’ve been doing it this way all this time. And I found a better way through, through people’s kindness and generosity.

Alison: So what is the better way? Like, what would you use to do? And you just said, I found a better way. What is that better way?

Brad: So a few things, uh, you know, one thing is a lot of times when people are going through a hard time, we don’t reach out to them because we think, like, maybe they don’t want to talk about it, or it might be awkward. I don’t know what to say. I don’t know them that well. And I was always in that boat of like, should I reach out? Should I not reach out? And what I learned is, when you’re in that really emotional state, the smallest little contact could give you strength. Like, we got an email from some woman who was a mom and her kid was in Jack’s class and she said, you don’t know me.  I can’t remember her daughter’s name, but I’m her mom, and I heard what’s going on and I just want to let you know I’m in your corner and, like, talking about it now. Like I feel myself tearing up a little bit, like that note from a stranger when you’re at a difficult time gives you the strength to keep going. And so I learned that. And when I talk to people for the book, what I heard repeatedly was being seen mattered. And being seen wasn’t talking about what they were going through. A lot of people didn’t want to talk about it at all, and I definitely fell in that camp. I did not want to talk about it, like I was dealing with it all day and like that’s the last thing I want to talk about and sometimes I’d even want to talk to people. But having that reach out where someone sends a text message and they send a joke or, or like they dropped off, like a little magazine. And I remember one of our friends, Mo and Mindy, dropped off like a magazine in the mailbox. Like, thought you’d find this cool to read.  And, like, I wasn’t going to read it, but they were thinking of me, and that felt awesome. So I think knowing that someone’s thinking of you is the first thing. Uh, the second thing, which I, you know, alluded to before, is just doing something. So I was someone who would always tell people like, let me know what I could do for you because I thought, I don’t want to make an assumption. I don’t know what they need. Like they’ll tell me and then I’ll do it, otherwise I won’t. What I found out is it was just such a blessing when someone like our neighbor stopped by and like, hey, you know what? We baked an extra lasagna here it is, like, awesom like, I don’t have to figure out what’s for dinner tonight. Uh, and, like, all these people at school signed up to pick up Jack, and it was it was just beautiful.  I mean, I just couldn’t juggle. And I remember the receptionist at school being like, wow, like, your kid has the biggest pickup list I’ve ever seen. And I was like, I know we’re really lucky. Uh, so also just doing it. Uh, and then one other thing is, is like when you greet people going through a rough time. Like something that we do when we greet people. We’re like, hey, how are you?  And we don’t even expect a response. It’s just we expect to hi or I’m doing great. And when you’re going through a rough time, someone’s like, hi, how are you? What goes on in your head sometime? Well, for me was actually pretty awful. You probably don’t want to hear it. I don’t want to talk about it. So should I be like, oh, I’m great. And just, like, be lying or say it’s awful and instead just saying, hey, it’s awesome to see you because it is great to see that person. Uh, and that way we’re you know, acknowledging that. And I want to say like, everything helps. Like I don’t want to come across like, hey, you have to be really careful, but these are just some things I noticed that I think have made me a better helper. And it’s because I went through that.

Alison: I love that…. It’s awesome to see you. I think that’s better than, How are you?,  no matter what.

Brad: Yeah. Right. Right.

Jean: And I absolutely can relate to doing something. When I was, uh, when my husband passed away three years ago. People would say, let me know what I can do for you? Just give me a call. And the best ones were when someone would call and say, we’re taking care of dinner Saturday and Sunday night. And like you said, Brad, I was thrilled. Thank you so much.

Alison: Exactly.

Brad: Yes.

Alison: When my mom was in our house and going through hospice and dying. And I’m an only child. And I had two little kids at the time and I never knew what I needed. I was only so in the moment of like, oh, I have to do wound care. Oh, I have to do that like I was. So in the moment I wasn’t even thinking, oh, we have to eat later, you know? And so when someone showed up, Sue Pastorius showed up with this big tray of chicken, like, just amount of cooked chicken. And I was like, oh my gosh, like, thank you. And I didn’t have to call. And that’s the thing, because I don’t even think I know what I needed for those months.

Brad: I totally did not know what I needed and it’s like a chance, like all of us have a chance to be a superhero for someone. And it’s not that hard. It’s just like taking that little step.

Alison: Yeah, and you don’t have to do something big… This is going to sound so funny, but I think the story that touched me the most was the teacher who figured how to tie shoes with one hand. Oh, I think his name was Don Clarkson.

Brad: Yes.

Alison: And I was like, I don’t know but that made me cry. Like, all the stories are so beautiful. How did you find everybody? How did you find all these stories?

Brad: So it was a mix. I started asking everyone I knew… Was there, like something small that changed your whole life, or that you knew changed someone else’s life? And because I do so much work with youth and nonprofits, like I had tons of people to ask and I heard amazing stories. And sometimes it was like a friend of mine, I had no idea. So I was out picking pumpkins with my friend Alex’s family, and I had known him since grade school. And I’m asking he and his wife and his wife’s like, oh, well, you know, Alex, every day goes jogging with this doctor. And it changed this doctor’s life. And I was like, really? And they told me this story. It’s in the book. It’s the story about Wally the physician and Alex who ran with him. And I was like, Alex, like, you never told me this. He’s like, well, you know what? It’s not something I do to tell people.  And so I found, which is beautiful in and of itself, but I found when I was asking so many people had these stories and then because it’s what I was excited about…So the example of Jim Abbott and his teacher, Don Clarkson, who learned how to tie his shoes. I read Jim Abbott’s autobiography memoir, which was amazing. It’s imperfect, it’s a great read. And there’s probably like three sentences about, oh yeah, my teacher, like learned how to tie a shoe. And that was really meaningful. And I read the whole book. I was like, I love that. I need to learn more. So I tracked down Don Clarkson’s wife and then I, you know, talked to like, Nick Newell, who had been impacted by  Jim Abbott and was able to through someone on Jim’s team like communicate with Jim and be able to put that story together. So like I do so much reading and then I pick out like that’s the part I love and I want to know more about. And then I’ve also because I was posting it online, amazing people would just be like, you wouldn’t believe this story, and they’d be emailing them into me. So there’s there’s so much out there. It matters what we look for.

Alison: Yes. Right.

Jean: Uh, Brad, can you please talk about what inspired you to write this book? I think we should have started with that.

Brad: So there were a couple inspirations. One was the, uh, high school graduation of a mentee of mine. So she attended Girard College, which even though it’s called Girard College, it is a high school in Philadelphia. And at her graduation, like on one side of me was this 70 something year old guy. And he told me, he said, like, I came down from New York, I graduated from Girard, and the school changed my life. So I come back every year to like, say thank you and support the next generation. And then on the other side of me was this mom who was crying, and she told me she thought her daughter would be dead or in jail. But here she was graduating. And there’s like a part in the ceremony where you sing the school song and they pass out like the sheets, and the dude next to the guy next to me. He stands up and is like bellowing the song. He’s so proud. And and the commencement speaker gets up and talks about how incredible these young people were. They statistically, they were from areas of Philadelphia where their success was not expected. It was expected that many of them would drop out of school, expected that very few would go on to college. And the commencement speaker talked about how every single young person had gotten into college. And then he said, but unfortunately, there are inheriting a world of of negativity where the negative is what is so pervasive. And that’s why tomorrow you won’t see anything about this graduation in the news. And, I like, I love inspirational movies and hallmark movies and all that type of stuff. And I felt like I was in one. I was alive audience member at this graduation and I so the next day I was thinking, it has to be in the news, like, how could they miss this? So I get online, I look everywhere and there’s nothing. So then I get our daily newspaper, which is the Philadelphia Inquirer. Look at every page and there’s nothing. So I think, man, like people would be so lifted up by this and they need this type of news… And it’s not there. And I thought, if I want it out there, I should put it out there. So I started writing more and more about people and organizations that inspire me. So that was the first inspiration. The second was when Mia was in the hospital. The nurses suggested that we go to this conference for young cancer patients and their caregivers. And, you know, my first reaction was, no way. Like, we’re here all day dealing with cancer in my free time, I do not want to be at a cancer conference. Uh, and Mia was like, definitely not. And then we talked about it that the nurses we found, and I’ve heard this from lots of other people as well. The nurses are just angels. We would not have gotten through that experience without them. They were amazing. And we decided that if they thought this was a good idea, it probably was a good idea. So we went and one of the speakers there had been through the same treatment as Mia, which is basically two and a half years of of chemo and treatment. Uh, so you’re in the hospital for about a month, and then after that you have two and a half years of outpatient where almost every day you’re going to the hospital to get treatments, but you can live at home.

Brad: And one of the speakers who had been through the same treatment said, when you have a treatment that’s that long, you need a project. Because a project gives you a focus, it gives you a purpose. And I thought, you know, my project is I’m going to write about, like, all the good stuff that’s out there, uh, starting with the amazing people who helped us. And I’m just like, that’s what I’m going to write about. So that was kind of like, I didn’t realize it would take me so long. Like it took longer than her treatment to actually get the book out. But that was kind of the one of the impetuses that got me writing. And boy, it was amazing therapy for me to just like, think about all the good out there. Yeah, uh, changing the narrative from, you know, why me? I mean, when Mia was first diagnosed, I remember there, like, you know, this is very unusual. She’s very healthy, and she’s she doesn’t have any comorbidities. And she’s young, which just adds to, like, what? Why is this happening to me? Right? Like I’m getting cheated, which is not a fair way to look at it. Like this happens to lots of people. But that is what was going through my mind and the whole time, like, you’re just feeling awful. And when you read about and then write about and participate in the good, it helped. It helped me. It helped lift me up and have a better perspective on everything.

Alison: And now Mia is and your family is doing great?

Brad: We’re doing great. I’m going to knock on wood because, you know, I’m suspicious.

Alison: Uh, I totally agree. And I’m wondering now that you’ve written this book, how did this book.. Because you seem to be very open and you were always doing volunteer work. So how did writing this book change your life? Like, now? Like, do you understand my question? Like, did it have an impact on your life that you’re feeling the repercussions from still?

Brad: I, so the impact for me was so when I finished the book and it was supposed to go to publication, I suddenly thought, oh my goodness, this is awful. It shouldn’t go to print.  I just read it so many times and I was like, went through this crazy like, oh no, stop the presses. And I reached out to like five really good friends who would tell me the truth and who also liked feel good books. Because if I asked people who didn’t like it, of course it’s not a good gauge. And I said, please be honest. Tell me, is this okay? Uh, should I print it? Because I’m having second thoughts. And they were like, you should absolutely print it. And I’m so grateful they, like, in that short period of time, read the whole thing, gave me their feedback because I just didn’t have confidence. I like I’m telling people’s stories and I really wanted to do them justice. These are amazing people that I admire. Uh, in addition to my own family members. Uh, and then it came out and the feedback was so overwhelmingly positive, I felt great.   And, uh, probably should not have doubted what I wrote, but I did. So it gave me a lot more confidence that my story could help people and that my story was, you know, had that type of value and getting feedback. So I’ve heard from nonprofits, one nonprofit called, and they said, we’ve got this huge donation from someone, and they told us it was because they read your book. Like, I have no idea who made that donation, but that was awesome. And getting people to randomly email me and say, I read your book and here’s what I’m doing. And they’re sharing like the goodness they’re putting out in the world. That has kind of kept me trying to get the book out there more and more, because I feel like it does have an impact, which is awesome to see. Uh, and, you know, I love writing, so I plan to write more stuff, but I’m having fun right now, getting the word out there and trying to, you know, make more good in the world.

Alison: I love that you’re so honest, saying you had self-doubt about it, because I think that’s what a lot of people face that they like here. I think, oh, of course, you just knew this was great and took off. So I love the fact that you because I, we talked to a lot of people and they’re like, well, I don’t know. And so hearing you say, do it or you know, that you had self-doubt is very encouraging, I think for a lot of people.

Brad: And, and I think a lot of people do have self-doubt because after I shared that with people, other people are like, oh, yeah, after writing this book, I got to meet some other authors. Uh, and I would ask them, they’re like, yeah, that’s that’s natural. So for anyone who’s listening, it is natural to doubt your own work. That’s okay. Find people you really trust, uh, and get their opinions.

Jean: And and Brad, I also love the fact that not only do you share these beautiful, simple stories that make such an impact on people’s lives, but you also give you share little tips. You know how to think outside the box. You know how to do something that one wouldn’t normally consider. And I after every chapter, you you give these little, uh, send a note to somebody, take a jar and put little, um, affirmations or something that you admire about that person. So every day that person can, when they’re having a need a little boost, they can put, pull out a, a, um, you know, something good about themselves. Do you have a favorite?

Brad:  I do have a favorite, actually. I feel like so often for me, if I sit down and write someone a thank you note, right? There’s so many people we could write a thank you note to, I feel amazing. So maybe it’s a little bit selfish, but like if I’m if I write a thank you note, I’m reliving those kindnesses and I feel so good about it. I love sending people thank you notes because I also love mail. Right? We don’t send enough mail anymore. Enough cards anymore. So it’s it’s fun. Uh, so I, I personally love that, uh, I also like, uh, you know, I think of one that I learned from my neighbor when, uh, when Mia, you know, was was in the hospital, our neighbor Vicky would call up and say, oh, I’m going to Trader Joe’s. What can I get for you when I’m there? Which was different than being like, hey, do you need anything or can I pick anything up? It’s like, I’m already going. And that wording was just so beautiful. Like, I’ve internalized that and I try to use that as well. Uh, and it’s interesting. So the idea for, uh, that little section of the book was I was talking to an agent who was super helpful, and she’s like, what’s the goal of your book? And I said, I want people to know that you don’t have to be a millionaire of an army of helpers like you can make a huge difference just on your own. And she said, well, you have to spell that out for people. You should have a little section at the end of the book. At the end of each chapter, it’s like, here’s what you do, because I had thought, like people would get it out of the stories. And, uh, that was just brilliant. And it, I think, made the book so much better.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: It’s it’s excellent. All those little tips and, and also I’m, I reached out to the Senior Project. Uh, I had never even heard of that in your, uh, Hall of Fame, which is great, because I would love to be a grandparent to some body. Do you know, and help some child so that that Hall of Fame, uh, are those organizations that came to you or did you reach out to them or how did that come about?  It’s such a great group of organizations.

Brad: Thank you. So it’s a combination. I knew a bunch of them, uh, because just being in in the nonprofit space, uh, and then I did a lot of research. So trying to find, it’s really hard when you’re a nonprofit, like, a lot of times you have so little staff you can’t even handle volunteers. And, you know, that’s okay. And I made it my mission to find nonprofits that could handle volunteers and had a meaningful way that we could participate at different levels. So there’s the writing letters to seniors, which could be a one time event. And then there’s being an ongoing mentor, which can be, you know, years of participation. And I’ll also throw out there one that I think you might like foster care to success, where that’s for foster kids who are in college because unfortunately they have such a high rate of dropping out of school. And there’s just a lot working against you. Like if you’ve been in a foster home when you go to college, someone else takes your spot and suddenly there’s no home for you. Uh, outside of school, you might be on your own. I know a lot of the students I’ve taught have been foster youth and just the mental stress. I remember the the number one question I get is like, oh my goodness, what do I do if my roommate asks me about my family? Like, I don’t want to tell them that my mom is a drug addict and my dad’s in jail.

Brad: So they have all this stress. And what foster care to success does is they just match an adult with each foster youth that they serve in college to kind of be that person. Like, we’re going to send them a care package on their birthday. We’re going to talk to them once a week when they have the bright idea of like, I’m going to take an extra class, I can finish college early. We’re going to say, why don’t you get first you’re through your first semester first. Yeah. Uh, and like, and there was one woman who she had a scholarship that she almost lost because the business office made a $500 mistake that they blamed on her. And she was young and had no way to navigate the system was pretty much like, forget this place. But, her mentor was able to kind of call up and get through the red tape and help it work. So, I mean, and that’s a way deeper commitment than writing letters. But from what you said, I thought that might be one that was of interest to you. So I thought I’d toss it out there.

Alison: Foster care for success.

Brad: Foster care to success.

Alison: Okay.

Brad: And you could probably find it in the index of the book.

Alison: Okay, perfect.

Brad: If not, email me and I will email you their info.

Alison: So, my father and, um, you know, he had a life changing moment. And I used to bring coaches to elementary schools in LA USD, and it was this very small nonprofit. Jean helped me with it. And, um, you know, I was doing it and I felt like it was me and two other women, and Jean and I thought to myself, like, are we is anyone really care about this? And then one day, this little boy, I don’t know who he was, ran up to me and said, did you get the coach? And I said, yeah, I helped get the coach. And he hugged me so tightly and said, I always wanted a coach… Like, and I don’t know. That changed the course of it for me because it became personal, like it was this. It was faceless before, and then it became like personal because, you know, and that that was such a beautiful moment that he squeezed me so tightly. You know, it just moves me, you know, so little things like that really can change the movement.

Brad: And it should move you. I mean, that’s beautiful. Like, and every kid should have that.  Every kid should have a coach in their life, like a family member or an adult at school or someone in the community. And something that I think is important to mention is like, so often we don’t know the impact we have. And you’re wondering and like, I find this so, you know, I teach 18 to 25 year olds and the majority of them have had significant trauma in their lives. And I’ll ask them, like, there’ll be a class where I’ll ask them, like, is there something small that like, changed your life? And they’ll mention these things. Someone said, like, my fourth grade teacher knew that I didn’t have enough food at home, and she gave me the job of cleaning the blackboards, and I didn’t realize it until years later. It was because when I cleaned the blackboard, she had all this food out that I could eat, and that was her way of like, feeding me. And whenever I hear the story, I’m like, did you tell this person? And they’re always like, no, I never did, but that’s a good idea. I should, and I think so often people don’t hear it, but we’re having that impact, uh, even in the book, like a lot of the stories that are, the people didn’t realize at the time how this was changing their lives and they can’t find that person to say thank you.

Alison: Uh, what do you teach?

Brad: So I teach entrepreneurship.

Alison: Oh, that’s interesting. And, um, and those those the the mentees that you have, what what does your class give them besides just, like, steps to be an entrepreneur. Like what? What do you think it gives them self confidence or what do you think that most of these young adults need right now?

Brad: So it’s not a traditional class. Uh, so, you know, I don’t lecture. It’s not like graphs and charts. Uh, really, it’s so the young people, the young entrepreneurs I serve are very entrepreneurial. Many of them have had to be entrepreneurial to survive. They have side hustles, like, and if you’re entrepreneurial and you join this, this program, uh, basically you’re either going to start a business or if you have a business, you’re going to grow it. And, uh, what happens is like some people have a little side hustle, maybe they’ve sold 1 or 2 pieces of jewelry they made and they want to grow it. Or they love doing hair and they want to do people’s hair, or they’ve got they’re great with lashes and they want to do people’s lashes. Uh, and in the class every week, they have to commit to what they’re going to do that week, uh, to push their business forward. It’s about taking a big idea and making it doable. So one woman wanted to start a restaurant. Well, she didn’t have the money, and she wasn’t going to get the loan to open a restaurant and get the equipment. But she was great at making pies. And people loved her Kool-Aid pie. That was her specialty. So it’s like, all right, well, bake Kool-Aid pies in your house and sell it to people.

Brad: And that went really well. So then after selling it out of her house, she starts selling it to food trucks, and the food trucks would sell it. And then her next step is to sell it to restaurants. But what I try to do is take that big dream and boil it down to something really small that we can start with, and force people every week to make a commitment of what they’re going to do. And what I hear is, I’m so happy because having being forced to do something every week took it from a dream to something I actually did. And then when they’re. Applying for jobs. They have a story to tell, like so. For a lot of these students, the business isn’t going to be what supports them. But when you’re applying to jobs and you say, I have my own t shirt company and I’ve sold $5,000 worth of t shirts like that, that’s meaningful. You have a lot to talk about, and you’re learning how to sell and you learn how to be uncomfortable. So I want them to be around different types of people. We teach about business networking, and I bring in a whole bunch of old people like my age who don’t look like them, who they’re not going to be comfortable around.

Brad: I’m like, all right, we’re going to do practice some networking, and then they’re prepared for that. So and so the purpose of the class is like you’re taking these steps towards your dream, which might be you want to write a book. It might be you want that restaurant business. And we’re tracking it. And every week we have a lesson where you’re learning and implementing it towards your business, and you’re building this support network like everyone in the class gets really close. And we have these alumni events where the alumni from from years, like, you know, you get to see each other and support each other. So it’s about for some people, they have their full time gig out of it. They built a business. It’s what they’re doing. We’ve got one young man who employs six of the other kids in our program now. Uh, for some people, it’s it’s a step to a job, and for other people, it’s learning resilience because businesses don’t always succeed. And you learn that, okay, well, you’re going to try something else and you’re going to keep going. And there’s a way to learn and grow from it. Mm.

Brad: You are so inspirational. Yeah.

Brad: Oh.

Jean: Thank you. We really are. I want to tell you that I was in, uh, Canada last week, and I gave a little speech at my husband’s alma mater, which is University of Ottawa. And I cited a little quote that you said about we have its fundamental the opportunity to transform someone else’s life. I don’t know if you know that you wrote that, but I cited it to the group that I spoke to, and, um.

Alison: That’s beautiful.

Jean: People like are saying, yes, yes. And it is no small act. Like you say in your book. There’s no small act. It’s it’s all these little, small acts are really changing the world. A they go un unsung, but people like you, what Alison and I are doing. And by the way, if you’re going to do a second book, Alison, mustbe interviewed. She does so many good things. She is like an angel here. She does so many kind acts of kindness she put together, like her friend’s spouse passed away, and Allison organized and setup dinners and meals for this family.. So I could spend all evening talking about you, Alison.   But anyway, uh, are you working on another book, by any chance? Are you collecting more stories for another?

Brad: So I do have, I have I have a lot of I have tons of things. I have tons of projects that I love and want to work on. Uh, you know, the two, two books that I’d like to write next, uh, and that I’ve started, one is, you know, like stories about inspiring kids because there are so many kids who have started their own nonprofits who are making this huge impact, and there’s so many lessons we can learn from them. And I think they can inspire other kids as well. Uh, you know, from writing humankind and talking to some of the kids that I interviewed in the book and what they did, I feel like what I came away with was like, as a parent, when my child brings me an idea, sometimes I’m like, well, have you thought about this obstacle? What are you going to do if this happens? And really, what I should say is, that’s an awesome idea. What’s the first thing you can do to take that little step and get started? Uh, so so that’s one book that I’d really like to write and will write. And then another book is the the title in my head is Do Something Awesome, and it’s a book about, kind of, the little things you can do in life to get ahead. Uh, so kind of like the nuggets at the end of the book with the advice, but going beyond that to a whole bunch, like how to be a better listener, a better communicator, and that comes from so much of what I do when I’m teaching and, and, and bringing that together into a book.

Alison: I love that. I think I think those would be I think those would be great. And I find this book, uh, very spiritual. Um, I really find it. Do you have any sort of, um, um, and yet you never mention anything about, you know, typical religion or God, but do you have any sort of spiritual practice or anything that you could, you know, maybe share with us?

Brad: Absolutely. So my spiritual practice is, is, uh, and I’m laughing because it seems so minimal. I meditate for ten minutes every morning.  I feel like it just it’s funny because I’m the person who in the morning, I’m like, I got so much to do. Like, I just should just not do it. I don’t need to do it this morning.

Alison: Right.

Brad: But I feel bad if I don’t do it. It’s like it’s there’s something there that is grounding. So I do ten minutes of meditation every morning. I was raised as an Orthodox Jew, and, uh, I led the services in our temple as, as a kid. And I remember at some point what went through my head. Of course, this isn’t right for everyone, but this is like my thinking was, I spent all this time in temple. The world would be better off if I spent that time in a hospital volunteering, and for me, that’s where I wanted to be. And, I guess so that.. I remember my mom saying to me,  you were watching TV and the news was on about all this bad stuff that was happening. And you’re like, I can make more of a difference if I go out and I do something and I want to do stuff. Uh, and that’s been my outlet. And it really is just so, I find it so rewarding. I love doing it.

Alison: And you said that nurses are angels and I totally agree with that. But I think an angel is love in action. I think an angel is someone who really…and I think that’s what you are.

Brad: Oh thank you.

Alison: I really think, I really throughout this book, I felt such gentleness and vulnerability and you and, um, you know, we read a lot, a lot of books like this, you know, for our interviews and things. And what I really loved is you never talk down and you just sort of very, very much relating, um, and, uh, I was wondering, do you think this has worn off on your son?

Brad: I, you know, I don’t know. He you know, he’s a teenager now, so he would never say if it did. Right. But I think the service has worn off on him. So you know when. And I think about like, he got to be more engaged probably than than he otherwise would have been when Mia was sick. Uh, you know, I still did a lot of the service work, but if she wasn’t going to be babysitting him, I was just bringing him with me. And he was way younger than, like, everyone there. And I think it was really good for him. You think that as a little kid, they might not absorb it, but I think he absorbed a lot of it. And, uh, and so I think it was really what was going on in our life introduced him to more service than he would have otherwise seen. Uh, and I think that has had a positive influence.. As far as the book, I was shocked that, like, he has no desire to read it like his dad wrote it- when he was little, I used to tell him the stories like, oh, and there’s this person and he enjoyed hearing them, but, you know, no desire to read it. Uh, because, you know, I’m his dad, so I’m definitely not cool. And, uh, but but I think for kids like, we could tell them all we want, but for they have to see it. They have to see us living what we tell them, and they have to be engaged. And they have such a beautiful way of being engaged because they are carefree. No hesitation. Like you have a feeling as a kid you’re going to go up, right? That kid who just gave you a hug, right? An adult probably wouldn’t have done that. But the kids, they just. And that’s what people need.

Alison: Yes.

Alison: I totally I totally agree. But you know, I agree. When when my kids were teenagers, you know, they could they didn’t really even they they believe they didn’t know me. You know sometimes. But now that they’re older, I think this is a beautiful legacy that  he will have and be able to share with his with your grandchildren and his children. It’s really you did such you did such a fine job. And I’m so happy we got to meet you because you’re so nice. You’re just downright nice, Brad.

Brad: Thank you.

Brad: You guys are making me feel so good. This is this is this is a great, great end of day for me.

Alison: It’s true.

Alison: We really, um. We really just appreciate we both, while we were reading it, were like, wow, I love these stories. So thank you.

Jean: And I love that they’re not long. You can just open the book to something beautiful.  So beautiful. And, you know, I,  just thank you for taking the time to write this.

Alison: I hope when you  write the next one, we’ll talk to you again.

Brad: Absolutely. When I write the next one and I have my advanced copies, you will get some of them.

Alison: Oh, I would love that. Thank you, thank you. Really. Thank you so, so much. And, uh, give, give our love to your family.

Brad: Yes, I will.

Brad: Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it, and thank you for spreading good news. Like we share that mission of getting good news out there.

Alison: Share the good.  I think there is so much power in that. And I think it’s just, I think it’s like a balm for the soul. And I really feel like that’s what people need. I know I do, you know?

Brad: Me too.

Alison: Thank you. Have a nice night.

Brad: Thanks. Have a great night.

Alison: Bye bye. Bye.

Alison: He was such a nice person, wasn’t he? Just from the minute he came on. We do these over zoom and the minute he came on, you just saw his face. Gentle, very gentle, very kind. And really, um, just wants to help. Just wants to help.

Jean: And yet he’s very passionate. He’s he’s just not as, um, you know, very I mean, he is very. It seems to me on the interview easy go lucky. But he has a very strong passion within him. So.

Alison: And I you going to read something from his book that really impressed us.

Jean: So he writes, why not think bigger than our daily routines and crossing items off our our to do list? Each of us has the power to be awesome every day. If you say to yourself, I’m going to make someone’s world better today, it will happen. All it takes is looking for opportunity, following through and that resource we all have within us. Love.

Alison: Isn’t that wonderful?

Jean: Yeah, he just has such a beautiful perception.

Alison: And also when you remember that we’re, um, my son Brady and my and my eldest child, Em was saying, um, that the thing about me that they can’t believe is that wherever we go, I just start talking to people, you know, and, um, they like that because then it shows them they were all really connected. It’s all the same, you know? And today we were going through the drive through of Walgreens, and there was a rainbow, and the man and I were talking about looking at the rainbow. And Brady was just laughing because he was like, I think you made that man’s day, like treating him. And I think that’s that’s what I think Brad is saying. Yeah, that you can do it at any moment.

Jean: That’s true. We all just want to be seen and heard and it doesn’t it doesn’t take a lot. That’s the beauty also of his book. And he offers amazing charitable organizations that that are doing excellent work. And, uh, like you said before, just a very small acts of kindness.

Alison: And you’re right at the end of his book, he has sort of like a Hall of Fame of of resources, if you are interested in helping out. And I actually looked at them and I’m, I’ve contacted one of them and I hope that over the new year I can I can do more.

Jean: So yeah. And he lastly he gives these little tips like when you think of your when you’re thinking, oh, how can I, um, do something for someone else? And he gives, he offers all these tips that just help you think outside the box.

Alison: That’s right. Which we spend a lot of time, you and me outside the box, I think, I think that’s where we live in our own box. Like outside the box. Well, we hope you enjoyed this interview. Please read Humankind. It’s it’s a real pick me up. It’s beautiful.

Jean: Right. It is indeed.

Alison: And have a great day. Bye bye.

Alison: Okay.

Jean: Are we rolling?

Alison: We are.

Jean: Are we recording?

Alison: Yes. We’re recording. I didn’t have the microphone in, I blew it, so here we go. We’re going to do it now.

Jean: We are. Okay. Great.

Alison: It’s gonna be excellent..we’re professionals.

Jean: Not. haha

Alison:  That should be our theme at the very end.

Alison: Hi everybody. Here’s insideWink podcast. You know what we were just talking about, which I think is great, that we’ve had the opportunity to talk to so many wonderful people.

Jean: We really have…what A blessing… Yeah.

Jean: We Just do this podcast as a hobby. And it has been such a benefit to Allison and I to  meet and talk with these amazing people. And we really hope our, audience get’s some, just get something beautiful and inspiring because you know, your life just gets more elevated, more enriched and more expansive when you just allow love in. Yeah. So, that’s the the message here.

Alison: Exactly Right.

Jean: And speaking about love….

Alison: Oh my gosh, this was such an exciting interview…David Hofmeister.

Jean: Who I love. Yeah yeah, I’ve been reading his books and he’s been to my home a couple of times. So he a mystic. He is a fantastic teacher on The Course in Miracles. And I just think he is so dedicated to communicating the truth about love and how love is real. And it’s a living vibration that each one of us embodies and how to exude it. And it starts with the mind. It starts with your thoughts.

Alison: Right. He’s so he’s really so powerful. And his books are amazing. And we were just so lucky to be able to talk to him. So here he is, David Hofmeister.

David: Hi.

Jean: Hi, David. It’s so great to see you.

David: It’s great to see you again. Wonderful to come on your podcast.

Jean: Thank you.

Alison: Yes. Thank you so much for being here.

Jean: This is such a treat.

David: Oh, beautiful. Beautiful. Well, it’s always a joy to come together. I always have such fond memories of our joinings and. And all the love and joy that we’ve shared with so many people over the years. So it’s it’s great to come together.

Jean: Yes, I was just. asking Alison. I said, oh, when was the last time David was  here, was here in Los Angeles that I remember seeing you and it’s it’s been some time…

David: Yea, it has been.  I was doing a lot of world travels and then I’ve kind of… well, I’ve formed a Course in Miracles monastery about 2010. So that was like yeah 13 years ago. And then,, I mean, yeah, all six continents and 44 countries and, but it’s more just working with a smaller community… You know, how Jesus kind of settled down with the apostles and the Women’s Corps and, you know, went way down into the mind to get clear of any debris. That’s kind of what I’m I’m doing. So I’m kind of got a devoted community around me that’s, you know, kind of a little mystical community now.

Alison: Wonderful.

Jean: I love that.. I think, um, David, can you talk about for people that don’t really know The Course in  Miracles.. What is it about the Course in Miracles that really hits it home for you?

David: Well, I think it is so direct. I think I’ve just studied so many spiritualities and many different metaphysics and spiritual pathways, but it’s, it’s just so direct and focused and it seems to be the, the whole package for we’ll call it mind training or coming to that state that Jesus called judge not ..just a state of non-judgment, where you have a, you have a metaphysical system or a theology, and then you have a workbook, which is basically your practical application to practice a lesson a day. And then you have a manual for teachers. And really it  is so direct with the practical application and bringing the those metaphysical ideas into a living experience, where you feel consistent peace and you, you laugh a lot, you feel joyful a lot, a lot blissful states of mind, and then they just seem to become more and more consistent as you don’t make any exceptions to the the lessons, to the practice of the day. So I would just say it’s kind of like a spiritual psychotherapy, that’s extremely practical, and it’s very metaphysical. And even though it uses like psychological terms and educational terms and Christian terms, it’s really points at a direction that that really doesn’t fit into the boxes of typical religions. It doesn’t fit into typical theologies that would involve sacrifice and suffering, those kind of theologies. It actually is taking us toward a state of pure innocence. So it’s I found it very helpful in my lifetime..

Jean: Me too. I have been studying it over over 30 years. And it is my go to. And there is so much, uh, there’s a huge spiritual smorgasbord out there, and, I really feel, David, that after Alex passed away three years ago, that I took a deeper dive into The Course In Miracles and like you said so beautifully, that it is about no compromise. You know, I can’ judge this, but that I can judge. And I think also, that it is possible to have peace and joy consistently, even though we’re in a human and physicality, we can perceive, always choose to perceive with innocence. It’s not always easy, but that’s where the rubber meets the road.

Alison: And could you tell me what your idea is of, no private thoughts?

David: Well, I would say, there’s a part in the early part of the workbook where Jesus says, you have no private thoughts, and yet that’s all that you’re aware of. So when we think of the typical stream of consciousness, of the human being, of the average human being, it’s a stream of timeline thoughts. Stream of consciousness, and basically the private thoughts, the characteristic of them are those of the ones that that have been judged and have been judged to need to be kept hidden. And that’s why they’re called private. Um, and yet when we talk to most anybody in Spiritual Journey, they talk about authenticity. They talk about being candid, being open, and particularly in relationships, when you expose these thoughts in a place of reverence and sacredness in a, in a state of, I’m just going to allow them up and, and allow the space to allow them up and give them over to the spirit or the Holy Spirit. Then that’s where the the release comes in. So it’s not like a strict rule. It’s not like. You know, for our communities, we have two guidelines. No private thoughts and no people pleasing. And that’s just be aware if you are hiding something or protecting something. Because when we protect it, we will either try to project it and see it in the world instead of our mind, or we’ll try to repress it and and push it down in the unconscious mind.

David: And both of those dynamics, projection and repression are egoic dynamics at keeping the separation belief system alive. So that’s why we we just encourage people to feel safe enough. I mean, use discernment. You know, you don’t. It’s not about sharing every thought you have with everyone you meet. But but use the dissernment. And when you feel a trusted friend or a someone that you can feel confident in and feel that they’re they’re sharing the same purpose of, of healing in the mind, then that allows a spaciousness for these thoughts to come up and and really be released. I think for most people, they they can obviously do this directly with their higher self, with the spirit within, but sometimes they feel like the certain thoughts are highly protected and they, they need maybe a mighty companion or a trusted friend to just say, you got a moment? Can I sit down with you and just tell you some of the thoughts that are going on in my mind, and somehow that helps to loosen it to, you know, it helps to take the pressure off of of those thoughts. You’re less likely to hide them if you can share them with a trusted friend.

Alison: Even if they’re about the trusted friend, or especially if they’re about the trusted friend.

David: Yeah, I think that’s what happens in relationships. I think that’s the context for healing that The Course in Miracle you know, will call on us to meditate and to still the mind. It actually uses relationships for healing instead of just kind of say, get away from certain people or go live in a cave or, you know, live in a tree house or something. It’s saying, no, use those relationships with the spirit to to accelerate your healing.

Alison: Love that. Yeah, I get I get stuck in this loop, David, of people pleasing and feeling like it’s almost like I feel when I read A Course of Miracles, and I’m very feeling very in tune with it, I think to myself, oh, I’m not even really here. There is no separation. We’re all one. And then that leads me to maybe go… So I don’t really have needs. I don’t really have needs. So my whole goal would be to please somebody else. And yet, when I hear you say no, people pleasing and a lot of the people we talk to really are saying no, be true to yourself. And sometimes that gets a challenging loop for me. Did that make sense?

David: Yeah, yeah. I think we’re so used to growing up with, with either like a focus on our personality self or a focus on others. And sometimes when we focus on other people, like obsessively, people say, well, you’re really like, extroverted and you, you know, you’re you’re so concerned about approval and what other people think. And then the flip side is when there’s such a focus on, we’ll say, the personality self. You know, some people would say that’s like narcissism and extreme selfishness. And then you get into almost a sense of like isolation and, and who cares about anyone or anything. And I think the course is really calling us to say there’s a state of mind where you can feel connected. And it’s not really personal, you know, mystical experiences. When we have those little glimpses, we we have a direct experience that, wow, it’s so vast. It’s so huge. I never knew it was so huge. So I think that’s pretty common, those loops. But it’s great that you notice them because that’s the first step in escaping them.

Alison: Uh huh. Thanks. Well, that makes me feel good. Thank you. That’s good.

Jean: Oh, well, David, can you please shed some light on the difference between the average way of forgiving and what Jesus talks about forgiveness in The Course of Miracles. Because it’s beautiful. Very liberating. Not always, what we think, so that would be great.

David: Yeah, well, I think typical forgiveness has it’s been practiced and talked about throughout the centuries. Is very much focused on there is a behavior that is judged as a wrongdoing. Either it’s a it’s a behavior of a mission, like you should have done something that you didn’t do or that you did something that you shouldn’t have done. So it’s very personal. It’s as if the error is in the behavior, it’s in the action, and then you have to acknowledge it. But it’s still very much of a personal forgiveness. It’s like one person forgiving another person, one person who perceived they’ve been wronged, another person who seems to be the one who perpetrated the the crime or did something wrong. And so it’s a very personal sense. So in that sense, it’s acknowledging something wrong has been done. And then an attempt to let that go, to overlook it, to say, I’m going to give you a free pass here, I’m not going to hold it against you. Whereas with A Course in Miracles, it’s saying you have to forgive your brother, your sister for what they have not done in Truth. Being a purely spiritual being. Whatever behaviors have been held against them is part of a misperception of their identity. It’s like saying, you’re not spirit and and you’ve done something, and I’m interpreting a sense of abuse or victimization. I’m interpreting a mistreatment.

David: And the grievance is arising from the interpretation of the grievance. So we look at somebody like Gandhi, you know, who was always on to non-violence. And the truest nonviolent state is a state of forgiveness, where you you come to a higher interpretation of yourself, of your brothers and sisters and of the whole world. And from this higher interpretation, you actually see from above, from above the battleground that there there was no, there was no grievance, there was no trespass. There was it was a misperception. It wasn’t something that was actually real and true. It was just a misperception. And then you you let it go. So forgiveness in this sense,  a Course in Miracles sense,  is always a gift to yourself, meaning to your mind. You’re just releasing judgments and misinterpretations from your mind and coming back to this pristine presence. That is how we were created. The I am Presence. And as we move into I-am-ness then of course, Jesus is a good example of that. Before Abraham was I am. Look at the grammar of that sentence,  before Abraham was I am. He’s he’s actually saying that when you forgive you, you go prior to the belief in the offense, you go, you go into this pristine state where all is one, all is connected, all is unified. And of course, that’s  the ultimate goal is to remember our love, our oneness, our spirit.

Jean: That’s beautiful.

Alison: That is beautiful. I think when you say that some of the people that we’ve talked to, have the perception that they’ve experienced something heinous and they’ve had really, on an egoic sense, some very traumatic experiences of abuse…. One mother’s child was in a shooting and didn’t survive. So when when I hear you say that, I want to know that  is so. And yet, I wonder what they would say? Do you know..?? And what do you do with that sort of thing? Like if a woman’s being literally physically abused by something,  the challenge there for them to say, I’m rising above it and it’s not really happening, I think must be very difficult?

David: Yeah. I think the biggest thing that people have to face on the spiritual journey is, is we’ll just call it even definitions.  Because when we take what our five senses present to us as a fact, then right away, it gets difficult immediately, because Jesus is teaching us in The Course that perception is a mirror, not a fact. It’s giving meaning to something like that’s the the second lesson in the workbook– “I have given everything I see all the meaning it has for me.” So, when you go for healing, you have to start to realize that when I perceive anything– abuse, neglect, mistreatment in any shape, in any form, could be something that’s happening to a child. Could be the Holocaust, could be, you know, any scale. It could be on a global scale like, World War one or World War two…and it could be something like even somebody who frowns at you, you’re going through life la la la la, you’re having a happy day. And then around the corner and then you get a look and a frown and then that kind of throws you off. Your day is not so happy when you see the frown, but that’s a perception, that’s an interpretation. So what I work with people on is, is basically saying, don’t try to deny the body, don’t try to deny what you’re perceiving. Your five senses were  made up by the ego to keep you asleep, to put a veil of images. You know, like the Bible said, “hold no graven images for the Lord thy God.” Well, he wasn’t just talking about gold and totem poles. He was talking about the whole cosmic image thing that we’re dealing with, you know, the whole cosmos. But but what it is, once you start to see, wow, I’m never reacting to what I’m perceiving with the five senses. I’m reacting to what my mind is interpreting ABOUT what’s happening, what what the five senses are showing me. So A Course In Miracles is just saying, you always have a choice of your interpretation. You can always choose to line up with the Holy Spirit, with your higher self and intuition in any moment, no matter what the situation is. You always have that option, and it takes so much mind training to do that. It’s not like we’re trying to gloss over anything we’re saying, wow, this is a lifelong journey of training your mind to that higher perspective to say, help me see it with you, Spirit.  Show it to me through your eyes. So we’re not trying to deny what we’re perceiving, but we are saying that that we want to train ourselves on how to interpret what we’re seeing. So for me, it was one thing to read The Course, I read it for like, I read it for like an average of eight hours a day for like two and a half years. And then when I really started traveling and following intuition and guidance and going to all these countries, some of the countries, I didn’t even speak the languages…

David: It was a walk of trust. I didn’t know how I was going to have my next meal or where I was going to sleep, but what it did was, it really helped me focus on my interpretations. What am I judging?  Where am I coming up with fearful interpretations and then being willing to release them and just trust that everything was going to work out? And so, it’s not about trying to reach people and basically say that your perception or your belief that you’ve been harmed is the problem. It’s really bringing it back to your own mind and, and saying, If I’m not peaceful, then I need to look at at my interpretations and judgments and hand them over. So when I traveled, basically, I kept hearing Jesus telling me over and over, it’s your lesson, It’s your lesson… I’d say, but but yeah, yeah.. It’s your lesson. It was like a broken record. It’s your lesson.  Is it ever not my lesson? No.  It’s always your lesson. And that actually helps you speed up with the forgiveness, because then you’re not trying to figure out what somebody else should have done or shouldn’t have done, or should have said or shouldn’t have said you. You’re inner directed that way and I think that helps you take responsibility for your state of mind.

Alison: It’s so funny you brought up that up..the first time I did the workbook, I had such a hard time with that lesson about looking at a picture of my children and thinking like, you know, when it says, look around the room. And I would look everywhere except on the bureau. I’d be like, yeah, that lamp. Okay, that thing. And then, it took the second and third time to be able to look at a picture of something that I thought was so meaningful And let it know that that’s just my perception that I remember that that makes me laugh that you brought that up because that was hard.

David: Yeah, yeah…the first time doing that lesson, everyone remember that..yea. hah

Alison: Looking everywhere else. Oh, shoes. Okay. You know this that, but not you know.

Jean: I think David, you gave a great story of a nun, doing A Course In Miracles… And she says, okay, the habit doesn’t mean anything, and this bracelet doesn’t mean anything, but the statue of Jesus on the table , well that does mean something… hahah

David: Yeah, just skip over that one.

Jean: Right.

David: That’s just assume to be real.

Alison: Yeah. David, living in your community with these people, that sounds so wonderful… Does conflict ever arise?

David: Oh yeah. I think when you start to see the depth of how deep this ego belief system is…. somebody recently asked me that. They said, do you ever have any conflict in the community? I said, oh, it comes up on a daily basis because we have a number of people. I think by the time we all come together into one place, it’s maybe around 40 people or so,  but basically it’s not just with within the community, of course, you have interactions with, with neighbors, with at grocery stores or at laundromats or, you know, at the market or whatever. And these things are just the unconscious darkness coming up for healing release. So, yeah, I think a lot of times people try to idealize it. And, and there is a strong focus on forgiveness because it’s a very strong shared purpose. But I think when you have a shared purpose, then the unconscious darkness can come up even faster. It can be more accelerated. So instead of being just la dee da dee da dee da, it’s it’s can get very intense. But the willingness to choose again, the willingness to choose the miracle gets stronger and stronger.

Jean: Yeah. I love that you said that. Choose again because, I think Jesus says In the Course, I’m not sure David, the ego speaks first and loudest?

David: Yes, yes.

Jean: So you get that hit.  And then it’s like, if you’re advanced, just go, whoa… That was that was a thought. And to pause. Take a breath. And if you are a Course in Miracles student, right away you’re like– Okay, this is coming from my mind, my interpretation. What’s going on here?  Otherwise most people just move into– Hey, what are you doing… and there’s conflict..,

David: Defensiveness.

Jean: So I like that you say shared purpose. Because I know if I’m working on my healing of my mind. And it’s a shared purpose. And I can share with Allison. Oh, this is what came up. And I feel so yucky that this came up.  Alison is is a great companion for me. And we’re so blessed to have a friendship that we can celebrate, you know, the healing that we’re both going through and support each other.

Alison: That’s right, that’s right. I had a question about…I don’t know how to really put this, so that I don’t seem stupid to you, but there’s a perception, right? There’s a judgment.  When someone gets sick, what is that? And did they?.. You know, we hear two schools of thought– stuff happens and God and Forgiveness and Love gives you a way of healing, of dealing with it and healing through it. And you create everything. Everything. So almost sick mind, sick body. Could you explain what you think of that?

David: Yeah. I think well, the context for looking at that is that the workbook of A Course in Miracles is, is really focused on helping there be a recognition or a realization between what’s perceived as an inner world of thoughts and beliefs and an external world. So when the question comes in about internal states of mind or internal sickness, unhappiness, jealousy, envy, whatever sadness and external sickness which can seem like a cancer or heart disease, you know, a broken leg, so on and so forth, that the mind training of A Course in Miracles is designed to bring about a realization that my thoughts are images I have made, and that what seems to be an internal world of thought, cognition and thinking, and an external world of images are actually identical. That there is no gap between that internal and external. There is no gap between the observer and the observed, or the subject and the object. They become completely unified in this unified state of awareness. And that’s where the healing is. So healing is really it seems to be a process in time, but it’s actually just the state of being, where you come back and you go, Ah, and you, you feel the connectedness. And in that connectedness, that unified awareness is the healing. So when we… There’s a great line in the course of miracles that says, where Jesus says, “The mind was sick,that thought the body could be sick.” That’s a very deep line. The mind WAS sick. There’s the past tense word. The mind WAS sick. The thought the body could be sick.

David: So what he’s teaching us there, is sickness is a wrong minded perception. He’s basically teaching us there’s two-   a split mind, which is what the separation is. The split mind… Ego and spirit. He calls wrong mindedness and right mindedness. Right mindedness sees that everything is in the mind, and all is whole and all is complete and all is well. Wrong mindedness fragments the world into pieces and then it tries to take a piece, Let’s say this pen and it tries to say, oh, this pen is today is showing symptoms, you see. It’s just first of all, it’s generated a pen apart from other images. And now it’s saying that the image, we’ll say the body having symptoms, is is how the world defines sickness. And of course, our medical model then would go into trying to study what’s wrong, what’s what’s going on internally. Is it cancer? Is it, you know, is it a virus? Is it the flu? Is what is it? So basically, it comes back to what I was talking about earlier, is you start to realize, that what needs to be healed is just perception. You want unified holistic perception instead of fragmented perception. And when you already perceive a sickness as being, we’ll say in a body or having to do with symptoms, that’s a wrong minded perception. And it’s always healed through a miracle, of a holistic way of looking at the world. So the key thing is to start to realize is that there is no world apart from the perceiver.

David: There’s a workbook lesson 132 where Jesus is saying, “There is no world apart from what you think.” And then he actually goes even one step further and says, “there is no world.” It’s a perceptual hallucination based on fragmentation. But the way we heal it, is we have to see it in a holistic way. And so Jesus just saw the world in a holistic way. And, the dead rose up, and the blind could see, and the lame could walk. Those are symbols. But when people go, wow, Jesus, raised the dead and healed the sick. And I say, well, even with Lazarus, yes, Lazarus was his friend. He raised him. He literally called him out of the the grave. He said, “Lazarus, come forth.” But I said, what you don’t read around in the Bible is that, even though Lazarus came out for Jesus that day with Mary and Martha his sisters there, later on he died. He died again. You see, nobody talks about that… Oh, Jesus rose him from the dead, and then he died again.  Because bodies come and go. Symptoms come and go. But it’s the holistic perception that is really what the healing is. So it just shows it’s not really ever about the symptoms. It’s about what am I thinking and what interpretation am I giving to the world? Is it a holistic, miraculous perception or is it a fragmented perception? And that’s the key. That’s the key right there.

Alison: Okay.

Alison: So do you think Covid the pandemic was really saying something about where as a collective, the world’s energies are?  Or do you think, it was like, well, there is no individual. But like what did you what did you make of that? That we all lived through that..that  we went through that? Or was it just like another.. that’s just our perception?

David: Yeah. For me, it was it was just okay, I can just flow through this in a guided way and follow my intuition like I would with anything else. Even if a war breaks out in the Middle East, even if a pandemic seems to sweep across the globe, I still am responsible for my interpretations and my perceptions. And then you start to see, it’s really about following the guidance, because there were people, obviously, that felt to do a little bit of traveling if they could, if they weren’t in lockdown and then they had to be guided. Sometimes they had to have a little vaccine card to get into a country, or you start to see they’re all just symbols, so you don’t jump on a bandwagon and say, oh, this is good, or this is bad, or this is evil and this is good. You know, you just start to say, I’m going to just keep flowing with my inner guidance here and let the spirit use the symbols for me to extend love wherever I go. And it takes it away from the pandemic being like a thing because there was the Spanish flu, you know, right at the turn of the century there there have been regional conflicts, world wars, even during the World war. And Fatima, you know, Mother Mary appears in Fatima to these three children and basically tells the children, “pray!” Jesus and Mary are saying, please pray…there’s there’s a war going on here. And please, please use your mind, the power of your mind to to come into peace and radiate that peace. So to me, I don’t see it so much in terms of the specific things that happen. It’s more just, okay, I need to follow my guidance. That’s what’s here. And now for me.

Alison: Thank you for that… That’s great.

Jean: Yeah. I also think that that following your guidance is so beautiful because you have to be still and listen to  that still small voice. And also, you’re not giving your power away. You know wha might be right for Alison, might not be right for me. I was guided to travel to help my mother in New York. So, you know, you were not guided to travel during the pandemic, you know, and  I think that really underscores the fact that we are all of God, that that we all have our innate divinity, sovereignty, and of, The Course In Miracles honors that.

David: Yeah, yeah, that the curriculum is highly individualized. And of course, because of that, that the guidance has to be highly individualized.  While we believe in separate individuals, then we need a practical way to reach us spirit, and that is through inner guidance and intuition. And then as we keep practicing, we can go into vast mystical experiences which transcend the personal and give us a glimpse that there’s something more than this mask, than this little suit of flesh. There’s something much greater. But we have to come toward that. And I like how Jesus says, you know, you have to go through the darkness to the light. And he does tell us, he says, bring the darkness in your mind to the light within. He’s not really teaching us to spiritualize matter. Even though we have a whole history of trying to spiritualize sacred rivers, sacred people, you know, sacred ceremonies, you know, we always try to bring the oneness into the form and say, oh, this is sacred. And then wars break out over sacred temples.

David:  All this belongs to the Muslims? No, it belongs to the Jews. You know, the when we try to spiritualize matter, we’re going in the wrong direction. Jesus is saying, bring your beliefs and your concepts and your false ideas to the light and they will disappear. Don’t try to bring the light into the darkness. Bring the darkness to the light. So if there’s one thing that anyone gets from the course, if they just got that, yeah, that would be a great practice. Then they can just live an intuitive life and practice bringing the darkness to  the Light, you know, and and wake up. Yeah.

Jean: Right. That’s so funny you say that, David, when Alex and I took our  last family trip..Well, second to last family trip.. we went to Jerusalem. And we were in the Old City and following where Jesus, you know, the sign of the cross, right? And then someone would say, well, over here is where the Greek Orthodox feel he was buried. But over there is where the Israelites felt he was buried.

David: Competing death sites, burial sites.

David: Well, sounds like you had some fun. That’s the best part. When you can go and have a good laugh, right? Oh, my God, this is ridiculous.

Alison: Yeah.

Jean: David, one of the things I really love, how you teach A Course in Miracles, because it can be a little intellectual, which I do like that part. But you also have a beautiful way of making it fun by showing movies.  And taking a movie, breaking it down and showing how the ego is, weaving its way through. That’s such a great way. Are you finding that to be still what you’re doing? Because you did that once at my home.  And I’ve seen you do a few online. I saw you do, Harry met Sally and…

David: Yeah.

Alison: Any good movies lately?

David: I have, I came down here to Mexico and I started to get this intuitive feeling that I was to go see this movie, but it wasn’t here. And then when it came, it was dubbed into Spanish, which doesn’t help me because I don’t know Spanish. So I waited patiently a few days, and then it was in English with Spanish subtitles, and it was called, Hypnosis with Ben Affleck, Ben Affleck in Hypnosis. And it was such… I went to the movie theater with three friends and it was so mystical.  We could barely walk when we were leaving. We  kind of went into such a state of mind, because it was all.. Speaking about a child being abducted or kidnapped, a father’s love for his child, the pursuit of trying to to find the child. You know, it was it had all the action adventure. But but as it as the movie moved along, it brought in the the topic of hypnosis, of the power of the mind and that that what was perceived through the senses is, is a distortion or deception, and that hypnosis can be used to bring artificial constructs to make it seem as if things are happening and seem as if things are a certain way. So it was, you know, using the whole idea of hypnosis. And as he went deeper into it, we started to realize that the main character starts to realize he has powers of the mind that he’s shocked and surprised about, and the woman that he meets  also does.

David: And then it goes all the way. It goes all the way to the daughter that he believes was taken. She ends up having to have this extremely powerful mind. And it’s a reunification of the family scene of the father, the mother and the daughter at the end, through the the daughter’s powerful mind of her wish for connection, her wish to go past the distortions, brings everybody really together, brings the family back together, even through the power of her mind. But she was very, she was young when she was taken, and then she some years passed, a few years passed, and then her powers, Psychic powers. So it gets into not only telepathy, which is kind of reading people’s thoughts, but it gets more into psychokinesis, too, which is people talk about moving objects with the power of their mind. There was one time when I was reading this book that Ken Wabnik wrote called Absence from Felicity, and Helen Schucman, the scribe of A Course of Miracles, was just pondering one day she was pondering with Jesus.. Like she said, I don’t understand where astrology meets with the power of the mind?

David: She said, what does the the movements of the planets and the spheres have to do with the lives of men and women and children on the planet? How how are the the movements of the planets tied in with the movements and the interactions of human beings? And Jesus said, well, your mind is so powerful. It’s moving all those 6 billion people, and behind it it’s moving all the spheres and stars in direct proportion. I just, I rolled off the bed when I read that, I just fell on the floor. I was like, oh my God, the mind is that powerful. And when it believes in the ego, it projects a world and it moves the spheres and the people in very much a synchronized way. So that’s why astrology, astronomy correlates with the lives of men and women. It’s because the mind underneath.. And this movie Hypnosis really had that feeling. Toward the end, you could start to see that the bodies were all moved around and all the the circumstances were just like movie sets that the mind had set up, and it had to escape from this interpretation of them being real. So it turned them to be extremely deep movie. I probably could watch it five times and do commentary on it five different times. It was so good.

Alison: Let’s watch.

Jean:  Yeah.

Alison: Thank you. Thank you so much for that.

Jean: David, do you have, after all these beautiful years of you teaching and Being Love, do you have a favorite Course in Miracles line or lesson that you love, or that you always go to? 

David: I think for years, the one workbook lesson that I would just kind of go back to and I even I made a YouTube video of it. It’s called, “I Rest in God.” And it’s so mystical and deep that a lot of people tune in and I think they just watch that, that meditation I did on that one because it was so helpful. So and of course, the introduction of the course, “Nothing real can be threatened, nothing unreal exists, herein lies the peace of God”, that is so powerful, because it just pulls you inward, toward the Light, away from these imaginings like imaginations of of fear and terror, just takes you into the to that which cannot be threatened to our spiritual reality. So I always loved the the introduction too.

Jean: Beautiful. I love that too. I will share with you that when Alex made his transition, I was there with him and I said that very prayer.

David: Oh, beautiful. That’s beautiful. Yeah, that’s so sweet. So what a beautiful idea to share prayer. Yeah. That’s beautiful.

Alison: Well, thank you so much. You’ve been such a treat.

Jean:  I have a couple of your books, David. But I want to just let you know that  this book that you wrote, Awakening through a Course of Miracles”… it really read me. I woke up, it called me every morning, and it was really so helpful. And your life has been such a blessing to my life and I really appreciate you.

David: Oh.

David: Thank you. And it’s just you’ve been such a blessing in my life. And  it was just beautiful to meet you both here in this way, with such a beautiful topic of , The Course in Miracles and healing and generosity and happiness, wanting to extend that with everything and everyone. So that’s that’s a very high calling. It’s fun to talk about.

Alison: Thank you so much. Yeah.

Jean: Anything, You know, David,  if you would like to say anything to close out and also David you if you’re in LA, I would love to see you and watch a movie ..

David: Great. Yeah.

David: Get put on a movie we can rent… Rent a movie or download a movie and have a good time..

David: Right now, It’s kind of like I’m down in Mexico, but I’m going to Mexico City on the 25th, I think it is, and down over to Monterrey on the 18th. But so I’m, I’m doing a couple things this month that I haven’t done for quite a while, which is just walk into a big metropolitan city and, and just open up and show going to show a movie, both like an all day thing with a movie in the evening. So that’s just a great joy for me, because I really love to to be there and just feel the questions and interact with everybody. And so it’s kind of a treat for me to kind of get out and be amongst the people and have good Spanish translators with me. So can I can survive. That helps.

Alison: That’s funny. That’s so great. I think that sounds like that would be so much fun.

David: Yeah, I’m really excited. I’m looking forward to it because it’s I just like to be out there among the people and, and and it’s like a revival. We they share their emotions and the tears and we, you know, we’re all in the healing energy, the healing vibe and and that love and connectedness. And I love that. Yeah.

Alison: Well, you are that…Just talking to. I feel like talking to you, I feel like I’m in a nice warm bath. Very comforting and beautiful.

David: Oh that’s beautiful I love it. That’s that’s my function to be the Light of the world. So, just let it come through me, you know, that’s… I try to just let it come through.

Alison: Yeah. And when you were talking about Jesus earlier, I don’t know if you could see it, all of a sudden, your screen, all these balloons went up..

David: I did- I don’t know how that that happens to me occasionally now. And I’m kind of pleasantly surprised, but I think that’s that’s a nice special effects -that I’m not planning.

Alison: Jesus liked what you were saying. Yeah.

Alison: He sent the party.

David: That’s it… Balloons like a big like a big party.

Alison: That’s right. Thank you so much, David.

David: Yeah. Thank you.

Alison: Have fun in Mexico City.

David: Yeah, I will, I will.

David: Beautiful. God bless you. If I get to LA, I will definitely make contact. Okay.

Jean: Great. Bye. Bye bye. Thank you for everything.

David: Oh, you’re so welcome.

Alison: So what did you think, Jean?

Jean: Well, you know, he hits it out of the ballpark. He’s just so clear about the mission of A Course in Miracles — which is forgiveness and being non judgmental.

Alison: And I love the fact that he talked about the private thoughts.

Jean: Yes. And people pleasing.

Alison: Right. People pleasing. Yeah.

Jean: I think it’s hard. It’s hard even to recognize if you’re a people pleaser and it takes– you have to really develop self awareness to go, wow, did I give my power away? There was I, why did I do that? And it takes, I think, courage sometimes to to look at that and actually to change it. And because we don’t want to disappoint people, especially people we love.

Alison: Right. You don’t want to disappoint them. And sometimes we act not in our best interest, you know, not to disappoint somebody else. And there’s really a balance that we can achieve. And I love that he talks so much about forgiveness and that you the it’s your it’s your perspective. It’s your perception, you know, and and love and that we’re all really connected, you know. Yeah. Truly. It’s so and right now in the world I love hearing that.

Jean: Very much so. And he talks, like when he says, you know, we we join together right.. When the because there’s only one mind. It looks like it looks like there’s what 7.5 billion or something. I don’t even know the number but it’s we’re really one. So there are no private thoughts. And certainly we all have thoughts and things in our life. But inviting the power of love to shift your perception of a situation and is so powerful, and you can feel that if you’re feeling off in your day, if you’re feeling resentful or blame, shame, regret, really take a moment and try to acknowledge what you’re thinking about without judgment. Give yourself that gift too and invite in your angels or the Holy Spirit you know. Just invite them in some help to help shift your perception..

Alison:  And scene.

Jean: Thank you.

Alison: That was beautiful, Jean. I think that is so true. That’s a great that’s a great way to put it. Just let love shift the perception. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Well that’s a good takeaway.

Jean: On that happy note. Yeah.

Alison: Thank you. Thank you so much for joining in. And we hope you enjoyed David Hofmeister.

Alison Martin: Hi, Jean.

Jean Trebek: Hi, Alison.

Alison Martin: How are you?

Alison Martin: I’m great. Oh, great. We saw a movie last night and it was really fun just to. I haven’t gone to a movie in, like, an a theater in a while. You go pretty regularly, right?

Jean Trebek: I go, like, maybe once a month. Yeah.

Alison Martin: Yeah, I love movies.

Jean Trebek: Me too.

Alison Martin: I just love it. And I loved being in the big theater, and I just loved it. It was really fun. Yeah. Go see a movie.

Jean Trebek: Go see a movie.

Alison Martin: And that’s it for today. Thanks for tuning in today. Actually, no. We even have the most special of guests today, Lorna Byrne.

Jean Trebek: Yes, she communicates with angels and she’s had this, I want to say gift, but it’s just an extension of her, her beingness. She communicates with angels ever since she was a little girl.

Alison Martin: She sees them and talks with them. And she’s so peaceful and beautiful. And she was talking to us from Ireland.

Jean Trebek: Which was fun because I just came back from Ireland and I was on cloud nine.

Alison Martin: There  you go. And you’re wearing your Irish sweater.

Jean Trebek: I am.

Alison Martin: So she was just so lovely and I had not been familiar with her. And now I love her.

Jean Trebek: Yeah, I have been familiar with her. She wrote a book back in 2009 which really put her on the map called Angels in My Hair, and she just gives so many fascinating stories about the truth of angels and their existence and their big desire to help.

Alison Martin: Yeah, it really just was, so… It brought me to tears a little bit. Speaking with her, she’s so sweet. We know you’re going to love her. So here’s here’s Lorna Byrne.

Lorna Byrne: Hi, Alice. And Alison. Is it Alison?

Alison Martin: Yes hi, Lorna!

Lorna Byrne: And Jean. I’m very bad with names.

Alison Martin: That’s okay.

Jean Trebek: You’re in good company.

Lorna Byrne: Good, good. So I’m looking forward to chatting with you. So whatever’s going to happen.

Jean Trebek: Yes.

Alison Martin: Well, we’re so happy that you’re taking this time to talk with us because your books and just you are so, so interesting and fascinating, actually.

Jean Trebek: And I want to just say right off in the beginning here. How much, I think the angels, their presence now is being recognized more and more. Do you do you sense that?

Lorna Byrne: Yes I do. You know, it’s like, more and more people of all ages are recognizing that. Maybe they will say, sometimes, maybe I have a guardian angel. Maybe that’s why I got out of that situation with that help, you know. So it’s lovely. And I just love the way God uses the angels.

Jean Trebek: Yes.

Alison Martin: And you’ve always seen angels. That’s always right?

Lorna Byrne: Always. Um, I didn’t know now they were angels. You have to remember, when I was very tiny, I didn’t know it was only when I was older. So I don’t know what it’s like for you. Like, to me, I couldn’t imagine if you were in this room with me not seeing your guardian angel there as well, or any other angel or a soul of a loved one, or something fleeting by in that sense, you know. So it’s normal for me. Just like it’s normal for you – sitting there with each other and and what you feel and see around you.

Alison Martin: So right now, when you’re looking at us, are you seeing angels around us?

Lorna Byrne: No, no, that seldom happens. That seldom happens on very rare occasions. And that would happen. Um, but sometimes I don’t know how they do the communication. But sometimes if you ask something, your guardian angel may answer it. It’s passed. I don’t know how they do it, how I can, so I can’t explain everything, but I try.

Alison Martin: That’s beautiful.

Jean Trebek: You know, personally, I have felt very connected to the angels and have listened to a lot of sound healing from the angelic realms. And can you tell us the difference between an archangel and a guardian angel?

Lorna Byrne: It’s a lovely question. Um, well, for a start, your guardian angel was appointed to you before your soul even came – before you were conceived, and it can’t leave you for one second. You know, and it just loves you unconditionally, no matter what. And I love that personally myself. You know, in that, that there’s someone there that loves me unconditionally. You know, no matter what I’ve done or what I’ve gone through in my life, they see me as unique and beautiful and that goes for everyone. And it’s the gatekeeper of your soul. But an archangel, an archangel can be with hundreds and thousands of people, as far as I can make out, all at the same time. They can be here with me and yet be all over the world at the same time. And I can’t explain that.

Alison Martin: Right. Could you tell us a little bit about in your book what you call -Unemployed Angels?

Lorna Byrne: Oh, I love the Unemployed Angels. I suppose I’ve never told this before, but, um, you know, one time when I was in Ballymun and we were living in our aunt’s house at the time because the roof had fallen in and everything like that, so we became homeless and, um, I was up at the top of the road kind of was like a T junction. And I was standing there and giving out, and then just my guardian angel and angel hostess just said, look up, and I could see these angels tumbling down. And the only way I can describe them, if you can imagine this enormous angel curled up in a ball like. And then just as they come down to the earth, just quite close, they start to straighten up. And it’s like they land perfectly, but their feet don’t touch the ground. And I call them unemployed angels, because on that particular evening and there was a neighbor, you know, up the road a bit, and he was struggling with, I don’t know exactly what he was struggling with, but he was pulling things in and out of his garden, you know, and I just remember saying saying, you know. Angel hostess the man could do with a helping hand. And I was just asked, well, what would you like to call these angels? And because they have nothing to do and I just said unemployed. So they have been called the unemployed angels.

Alison Martin: I like that term unemployed angels because it makes me feel there’s angels all around just waiting to help.

Lorna Byrne: Oh, yeah. Like even your guardian angel. Like even the archangels, you know, so many different angels that are called in to help us all of the time. But the unemployed angels, I love them because I would often see them. You know, I could be walking down, like here in Kilkenny. You know, the back streets are real tiny. So, you know, even if it’s not busy, it’s busy. And yet, you know, just watching the unemployed angels moving in and out between people. And I would know that they’re hoping that someone in their mind or, you know, God could do with a helping hand or this is really heavy because I would often see, you know, the angels, all of a sudden an unemployed angel go straight to a person. And I know that person – something must have gone through their mind and called on them, even if they didn’t know. And I love that.

Alison Martin: It’s beautiful.

Jean Trebek: Lorna, so you say several times in your books that one must ask for help. Can you talk about that?

Lorna Byrne: I say that because it’s like as if – how can I say it? It’s like as if the whatever help you ask for, you have empowered your guardian angel and all the angels. You have empowered even the souls of loved ones. The question I haven’t really been asked before in the way you’ve asked it. And that seems to, you know, you’ve asked for it, so you’ve given permission. You have to remember no angel can overstep your choice or your free will in any way. And I love that. That’s why, you know, ask! Pester them! It doesn’t mean you’ll get it either. Like I’ll say that as well.

Jean Trebek: That’s true.

Lorna Byrne: You know, the most important thing is that if you’re striding down an area or a road and you’re heading for something and you believe it’s for you, at least you’re trying, and if it’s to be, it will turn out that way, you know? But if it’s not to be, they will turn you in another direction for something better. And I love that. Like, you know, I’ve heard that from so many, especially women, by the way, more so than men and all around the world – They say they were so focused on something and asking God and asking their guardian angel and the archangels, every angel they could call in, you know, for some particular thing to work out for them because they believed it was for them and they could do it and it would be greatly successful. And then say, Lorna, we’re so glad we didn’t get it. I’m so glad it didn’t happen, because look at what I have now is a million times better. And that’s the important thing to try and not be so disappointed. And when something doesn’t succeed for you because you have learned a lot, you know, and that learning is probably for something else, you need it. You need it.

Alison Martin: That’s right.

Jean Trebek: There’s that great quote that says, be careful what you wish for.

Alison Martin: Could you just for our listeners – what is an angel?

Lorna Byrne: And that’s a lovely question. An angel is light. You know, they’re like a beam of light. But I think this is the part of the question you’re asking. But they give a human appearance within that beam of light not just within it… It’s like the whole beam of light takes the human appearance on. And I love the way their clothing can change. And they’re neither male nor female either, but their clothing is not like ours. You know, we take off our clothing. Their clothing is part of them. I think that is very beautiful because many a time when I’d be looking at an angel, it’s… I have spoken a little bit about the depth of an angel. It’s like you could step into them, you could go through one, you know, one fold on the clothing and you’re somewhere else in that sense, it’s like as if it’s never ending. But they are very beautiful. I have never seen an ugly angel as humans say, use that word. And I have never seen an angel be angry or, you know, they’re always so kind and so loving. Their love for us is unconditional. Like your guardian angel’s love for you and everyone’s guardian angel out there, their love for them is unconditional. And to your guardian angel, you are…it’s number one and it only has eyes for you. It’s not interested in Alice. They’re sitting beside you, you know. Or I’m bad with names or Jean’s? Your guardian angel is not interested in Alice sitting there beside you.

Alison Martin: Alison

Lorna Byrne: Alison. Alison. Right.

Alison Martin: It’s okay.

Lorna Byrne: Well, this is part of being dyslexic as well, so… It just happens.

Alison Martin: Totally. Doesn’t matter.

Lorna Byrne: I just love that the way your guardian angel loves you unconditionally. And it’s there for you and you’re it’s number one. And it only has eyes for you. And you’re perfect and unique to your guardian angel. And you’re absolutely beautiful, you know, and it’s the gatekeeper of your soul. So you know that spark of light, your soul is, you know, that spark of light of God. So your guardian angel is in the presence of a human being, but of God as well. And I think that is so powerful.

Alison Martin: So, what you just said brings almost tears to my eyes. So it’s a part of God. An angel is because we’re all really maybe like a part of God. But they are created to solely help us and be present for us.

Lorna Byrne: Yeah. And I would agree definitely with that. Um, I’m severely dyslexic, so I don’t read… Don’t send me off somewhere because, you know, the angels don’t help me anymore because I had to learn myself, you know? But if you tell me, you go left and right, I have to figure or that code out before I even head off. Then I’m trying to figure out the code and if a sign changes, forget it – like even if the ladies and gents bathrooms and I’m in another country and I don’t recognize the sign. I have so many gone into gents because I was so sure that was the ladies, you know, so sure, so positive in that, in that way. Um, so, you know, it’s it’s to believe in yourself as well. You know, that’s what your guardian angel wants you to do is to believe in you as it as it believes in you. You know, you believe in yourself. And I’m all the time saying to so many people of all ages, men and women and children and teenagers, you know. Do your best to love yourself like your guardian angel loves you. You know, your guardian angel sees you as unique and beautiful. Why not see you yourself that way? Why not believe in yourself as your guardian angel believes in you? And I know it’s so important for us to love ourselves so we can love others as well. More. And but I love the way sometimes when I’d see someone sad or down, you know, and the guardian angel holding a light or having other guardian other not guardian angels, other angels, you know, come and hold a light in front of someone that is beautiful to see.

Jean Trebek:  Lorna, is there a specific way to connect with your guardian angel? But since they’re with us all the time, is it just asking them?

Lorna Byrne: And I would say there’s no specific way, you know, just ask. Just give yourself a chance. If you don’t believe, you know, if you’re suspicious and all that kind of thing, give yourself a chance. Say to yourself, you know, what have I got to lose? You’ve actually nothing to lose, only to gain, you know, and ask for that help, you know. And lots of times people will ask for a sign. Now, sometimes people might ask for, you know, a brand new house to come along or a car to come along or, you know, crazy things that won’t happen because signs are very hard for the angels to do. But when you get to know your guardian angel, the signs become easier because you start to recognize them. And maybe your guardian angel in the future knows that you know you want this house or this car, and maybe it will happen. And you have to then smile at yourself and say, well, 20 years ago I just laughed at the idea, saying, and now I know I have it, but a lot of things would have had to happen in order for that to happen. But most people will ask for, you know, a feather. Or a phone call. And some some people now are asking just for a smile.

Lorna Byrne: Someone to smile at me. And I think that’s very, very beautiful. And I often hear the strangest stories of people saying, you know, they never believed when they asked for a feather. They thought it was, you know, crazy. It would never happen. And, you know, they said it didn’t happen straight away. You know, it could be six months down the road. And at a time when they were kind of saying, I could do with that sign now because of where I am. And you’d hear people telling you, you know, they picked up the tablecloth and a feather came from under it, or, you know, they opened a drawer and there was never feathers at all. And then or a book, something like that. Or always remember a lady, you know, with her shoe, like she says. But Lorna, there has never been feathers in my home, not even in the pillows, you know, in that, in that way. But the other one is a flower. And a lot of people would ask for a bouquet of flowers or something like that. Um, but I bet now if it came into your head to give someone a bouquet of flowers, you’d probably put it off…

Lorna Byrne: So the angels work really, really hard. They put the thought into your head to do something for someone else. That’s a sign, because they can’t hand them the flowers. But children are very good at listening to their guardian angel. You know, and have often seen witnessed it happening loads of times where a child will pick a wild flower and run over to a stranger and hand it to them. Yes, you know that’s your flower or your bouquet of flowers that’s it all wrapped up. But sometimes I have seen where someone said thanks to the child, gave them a smile and walked off, and then threw it away. So they threw away their sign in that sense. So I’m always trying to just make people help them to just be aware. It’s to be aware to see the good things in your life, the blessings in your life, not to be seen all the time, the negative.

Alison Martin: With so much going on in the world right now, and when you describe, your whole presence gives off the love that you’re talking about. And there’s so much going on in the world right now. And I was wondering when something like a war happens or something like that, do angels cry because they love us so much?

Lorna Byrne: Um, I have never seen them cry as in the way we cry, but I have seen and know what’s happening even now and millions of angels have, what would you say? Flocks to that area, to those areas. Even to places where you don’t know where there’s trouble, but you haven’t heard about it in that way. And the unemployed angels, I always ask people, you know, you don’t have to send an unemployed angel to a friend or someone who believes. How about sending it to a stranger? How about asking for the unemployed angels? More of them, you know, to go to the places where horrific things are happening, you know, and people are doing that. I think that is that’s those who are not in a bad area as such in the world. You know, we’re sending love, we’re caring, we’re praying and we’re doing anything else we can. Because I did watch a bit of the news just a little while ago, and I was just praying and asking, God, send all the angels there, all the comfort that can be given. And, somehow, peace to come somehow, because it’s not simple. You know, we all think it’s simple, but it’s not simple, you know, and especially when you see a child on the TV, on the news and they say, but I did nothing wrong…That’s heart rendering. You know, when a child says something like that.

Speaker4: We’re really living through a time of where I think faith is so, so important. And it sounds like when you talk about like the feather or they send daily miracles we can see.

Lorna Byrne: Yeah. Miracles happen all the time. Like the three of us talking is a miracle, you know? How did it happen? Nothing happens in the sense of I know God and the angels are working very, very hard, you know, to soften our hearts. You know, regardless of the pain and hurt we have gone through and and even our loved ones that have gone ahead of us, they’re touching our hearts, as well. And we need our hearts touched. We need our soul touched. We’re human beings and we’re a spiritual being as well. And that’s the spark of light of God. That’s the spiritual part. But the human part has great difficulty. If someone says something nasty to you, you will take it personally or if somebody runs somebody else down and that makes them then feel very down and depressed within themselves – that’s the human part. But the angels and the souls of loved ones are all the time reaching out to us to get us to have a bigger heart. And one thing the angels always said to me from the time I was very small, Lorna – and they use big words and I could never pronounce the word Lorna – Don’t take it personal. They know no better. Give them a hug. And I still do that today.

Alison Martin: That’s wonderful. What do you think? What do you. What do you think heaven is?

Lorna Byrne: Oh, that’s a lovely question to be asked as well. Well, heaven is beyond your comprehension completely. And again, that’s a word the angels and God always use to me, you know. And I could never say it, by the way, until maybe I was getting the hang of it. Maybe ten years ago. And now I can say it.

Jean Trebek: Very good.

Lorna Byrne: It has taken all my life. But heaven is a place that when you go there, when it’s your time, when your guardian angel – how can I say this? – But it’s like your guardian angel reaches in. And sometimes, even before that, I would see the guardian angel already holding on to the soul of someone. But the soul is beautiful, you know? And the soul doesn’t have any pain or hurt. Nothing at all. And it’s only the human body that’s suffering, not the soul. And, you know, I’ve seen so many times have witnessed, you know, the soul being lifted from the body and it is going with the guardian angel and it hesitating and looking at the loved ones and, and then it’s gone. But what I love is, time doesn’t exist. So it’s like the next moment the soul of your loved one can be right back there helping to comfort you. Helping you to get through the loss and the pain and the grief can be so hard for some people that it’s like an ice block in your chest, a hole, just this big hole, you know? But they’re gone to heaven and they are perfect. Heaven is incredible. I can’t describe it. It’s like when you get there, like loads of times God has sent me back, you know, and I have often refused, but it didn’t work, you know, it didn’t work. I was told I had to go back and that was it. And but you don’t want to go back, not even for your loved ones. Like, because your loved one can do more for those they have left behind. Because they can intercede, they can ask for more. And the one thing I love about a loved one – depending on how close you were to them, okay- you can even smell them when they’re in the room. You know they’re there.

Alison Martin: Yes.

Lorna Byrne: And and they give us loads of signs. Loads of memories. You know, someone, a stranger could say something and it brings tears to your eyes because it’s reminding you of your loved one. So I always say how the soul in your guardian angel and the other angels got that person into that area to say those words so you could hear them, you know? And I met a mother there recently and her grief is horrific. She lost her daughter and she just said it’s very hard, but now I’m getting comfort. But the grief never goes. It’s just that you can cope with it. Live life. But the hurt and the pain is still there. The loss is still there. I know that myself. Even with Joe, like, I still miss him. Right. You know, at times I’d say, well, I’m glad you’re not here, you know? And then other times I’d say, I wish you were here, you know, give your children and your grandchildren now a helping hand as well. And you know, and I would even give out to him and many times I have seen him as well and that can happen for people. One way is it can happen for people is sometimes when you’re walking down the street and it’s crowded, you might spot someone in the distance and they look so like your loved one, but when they come up you realize, no, they don’t even look like them. But that’s where the soul has. How would I? The only human way I can describe is kind of stepped in front of them for you to see. You know, giving you a glimpse in that in that way.

Alison Martin: That’s a beautiful way of putting it.

Jean Trebek: Well said.

Lorna Byrne: Because I know it’s so hard for everyone. And you know, grief is… I was explaining at a workshop that this lady was at and I was saying, grief can be so different for others. You know, it depends on how connected you were to that person. And the more connected you were, the more you loved them…It’s like a how would I call a string being cut, something being cut, and suddenly, you know, they’re not here physically and anymore. And that pain is horrific. I hope I didn’t say too much now.

Speaker4: Oh, no.

Alison Martin: We’re just taking it all in. And we’re bathing in your words.

Jean Trebek: It’s so beautiful. I too lost my husband three years ago, actually, on today. This would be his third year anniversary.

Lorna Byrne: Oh, I’m so sorry.

Jean Trebek: Thank you. And I actually feel he helped orchestrate our time together because he knew how much I loved the angels. And so it’s really a treat to have you talk with us today.

Alison Martin: So it’s beautiful. Can I just ask another question? Do you feel as though when someone passes away, can they become an angel? Is there like a system of angels?

Lorna Byrne: I have to smile and laugh because God and the angels told me no. But they love when someone says my husband is an angel in heaven, or my child is an angel in heaven. Now it’s an expression of love, and the angels love that. And God loves that too, you know? Um, but every soul is more than any angel ever could be.

Lorna Byrne: I think again, that’s very, very powerful. But the angels do love when we say my loved one is an angel. They they smile and it’s expression of love. Because we look on angels as good, protective, loving, caring, you know, compassionate in that way. And that’s the way we want our loved one to be. That’s the way your loved one is. They’re perfect. Right? They are that spark of light of God. And they’re there for you. You can call on them. You can give out to them, you know, you can write a letter to them. You can say, come on, pull your socks up and help me here with this, because they hear you. And just say, you know. Um, a few months or a few weeks passed and you said to yourself, oh, I haven’t even thought of my loved one over these past few short period because I’ve been so engrossed in other things. But your loved one has been coming and going all the time, keeping an eye on you. But that coming and going is, again, I would say it’s there’s no such thing as time. So for you that can be forever, you know? Or sometimes someone would say, I could feel my loved one in and around me all day. But for your loved one, it was a fleeting moment. But for us humans, it was a whole day. Right?

Alison Martin: I like the idea that there’s no time. That it’s all… it’s all possible right now.

Jean Trebek: Yeah. Me too.

Jean Trebek: So, Lorna, you’re working on a sanctuary that you’re building in Ireland?

Lorna Byrne: Yeah. And that’s a miracle.

Jean Trebek: Can you tell us a little bit about the sanctuary?

Lorna Byrne: Well, the sanctuary is something that God had shown me when I was a child. And through my life, just the same as when God had said I would write books and archangel and the angels kept reminding me, you know. And I thought God and the angels were crazy because I couldn’t even write my name. Never mind even pronounce it properly. And just like the time Archangel Michael when I was wheeling my daughter home in her pram, you know, saying, I have a message for you. And I getting so annoyed with them because I was a busy mum, you know. What are you doing pestering me for? I haven’t time for this. And just stopping and turning and looking at them, you know. And he just said, you will write soon. And I remember saying to him that day, you know, how on earth does God expect me to write even one book when I can’t even read or write? And he just said help would be sent. And it’s the same thing with the sanctuary. Um, and it’s here in Ireland, and it has been a huge miracle, and people have been responding and helping in so many different ways. It’s cutting the story short… So here I’m trying to say what part of the story will cut short? And I’ve been in the house. Been in the sanctuary. And during my life and not knowing but being there spiritually and holding God’s hand and looking out the these enormous windows, onto a lake, everything you know, and then skipping again. And one day, when Joe was still alive and we were heading down here to a friend’s house, and for me, it was like as if everything went in slow motion. And Archangel Michael was standing at these two pillars, this old gate. And Joe just said, Lorna, are you okay? He knew something was wrong. And I said to Archangel Michael without speaking out, you know. That’s crazy. No way. Because you could only over the wall see this tiny little roof. And he said, you will live here one day. And Joe was already pretty sick – like there was no way. Like definitely crazy. And then time passed. And this family in America got Angels in My Hair and. How would I say this? And miracles happened in their lives because of it, you know. And life was saved as well. And the couple somehow managed to find me, and they came to visit. And he just said, here at the farmhouse, you know, we’ll add on rooms because I was telling him all the things we were doing that we don’t advertise like we do loads, we don’t advertise at all.

Lorna Byrne: And he said, well, I’ll build on rooms onto your house because no money like, you know, and, um, applied for planning permission. Didn’t get it. Wasn’t God’s plan. And then, one of the girls that my son knows, he said to her, look for some place that mom can give talks, you know, and it’s not too expensive a hall or something like that. And while she was looking online, she came across this place that was for sale, the Sanctuary, and she just sent it to my son as a joke, you know, with a ha ha ha on it, like, you know. And then my son sent it to me and said, mom, he was on the phone to me- now touch the link because he had to guide me and I touched the link. What do you think the first thing I saw? The pillars and the gate. I nearly crumbled and I said, God, what are you up to? And the video held on the gate for a minute or two. You know? I like that I could still see this little roof, you know, falling asunder, collapsing. Said, What’s God up to? But then the video started to move down this windy, just a little tiny road, a very tiny, not road like, um. And then came out at this big house.

Lorna Byrne: The same house that I stood in with God on umpteen occasions and the lake was there. Except the lake was filled with silt now. I just said, God, what are you up to? And just that, that couple bought it and gave it like there’s the miracle. Like I don’t have money as such, you know, and gave it and then gave some money towards repair because they said in another year the seven roofs would have fallen in. So we’re doing a lot of work there at the sanctuary and doing workshops and all that, and we grow our own food. So it’s purely organic and we have a forest, so we do nature, you know, we’re doing umpteen things because that’s one thing God and the angels taught me everything out in nature, you know. So I even have teachers and professors coming, you know, ordinary people coming like myself, you know, and a few times it has been said, but we didn’t know that. And here I am looking at them. But how come you didn’t know that.

Lorna Byrne: You went to Oxford or whatever, and you can read books and you can go on the internet and get information, and I can’t do it that way. It’s just to me, it’s just incredible. And I know it’s expensive probably to come because people have to fly and tickets and everything like that. But one day I know one day will come when we won’t have to charge anybody. Somehow it will be funded or somebody will fund it where we could just say to people, if you want to leave a donation, you can leave a donation. But then we would be able to do an awful lot more of extreme cases, as I call them, those that, you know, it’s like having a 14 year old little girl and she’s standing in front of me and she came into a workshop with her granny, and she’s telling the story, you know, and showing her wrists where she’s already harmed herself because she’s been bullied. So we’d look on her as an extreme case. How can we help her to give her encouragement, confidence and belief in herself? And we’ve done that loads of times, you know, so even a mom coming who might be like your husband terminal, you know, or a child, and they’re coming and staying for a while with us. You know, there’s so many things we do without advertising it. You know, it’s separate from those that come for a workshop. You know that that’s at the moment has to offer. You say pay the expenses.

Lorna Byrne: I’m no good at that part. As soon as somebody comes in the gate, they just say they feel so much peace and so much love. And it’s like, as if, you know, they’re hundreds of miles away from the world. It’s like, where do they put it? Even though the the road is not that far away, but it’s like as if they are that God has, you know, put this bubble over it in that way

Lorna Byrne: And they just say they feel so much peace. And they, in a sense, don’t feel like going back to the world, but they have to because they have families and work and everything like that. But I would say always remember – bring that peace and love with you to the way you have changed here. Now bring that home with you. Because that’s the important part. You know, to open our hearts and to have that love and that compassion and understanding and, you know, to enjoy life. You know, to enjoy life. So the sanctuary is an absolute miracle. And the miracles are still unfolding there. But I know we need lots more miracles to unfold. It’s in God’s hand and kilfane is an Irish word, but to translate it, it means sacred place.

Lorna Byrne: We didn’t know that now till a year later. And someone said to us, do you know what Kilfane means? Translate it. Sacred place. And it definitely is.

Alison Martin: Well, you. You are like an angel on earth, Lorna.

Jean Trebek: Absolutely. Yes you are.

Alison Martin: Thank you for sharing all that with us. You’re just so. I hope we can speak again. You really are just so. I feel so wonderful right now. Thank you.

Lorna Byrne: Yeah, well, I love the way it is it’s like, as if we’re in our kitchen. You know, I love the way your room is there. It’s kind of, you know, you’re just sitting on chairs, you know, and just relaxed. And we’re in conversation and the conversation has been absolutely wonderful. So I ask for blessings for you. Both of you.

Jean Trebek: Thank you,

Alison Martin: Thank you,

Lorna Byrne: And your families and all your listeners as well.

Jean Trebek: Thank you. And we bless the continuation of the sanctuary becoming a place that people are healed and restored to great joy and health.

Alison Martin: Thank you so much, Lorna, for everything you’re doing.

Alison Martin: I well, first my biggest feeling was just her gentleness and the way she spoke with us was so peaceful. And her energy is so different than mine because I’m like… And she’s she was just so lovely. Isn’t that amazing that we’re surrounded by entities and energies that just want to help us?

Jean Trebek: Exactly. And that we’re never alone and that we do have to call on them for help and somehow some way they work with the energy to assist us. Right. And I definitely have been even in my past, calling on my angels for help. And I could talk to you all afternoon about stories where the angels have shown up in my life and just kind of smooth the certain situation or given me ideas. And as she says, you know, the angels sometimes place an idea in someone else’s mind to go bring someone flowers or go give that person a hug. And so it was so beautiful.

Alison Martin: I totally do those things now. I think when I was younger, I’d say I could do that tomorrow or no, that seems silly. now I totally act. If I have an urge to call someone or or drop them a line or send them soup or bring them flowers, I act on it.

Jean Trebek: You do, you know.

Alison Martin: And I think sometimes it doesn’t even come from me. And I’m very aware that if I’m really thinking of someone, I somehow get a call from them.

Jean Trebek: Right? I think a lot of people are starting to see that synchronicity, and that there is this subtle energy field that shows us that we are innately connected to each other. So call on your angels. That’s right. If there’s anything that you’re concerned about or fear or worry or, you know, whatever or…

Alison Martin: Just to say thank you.

Jean Trebek: Just to say thank you, like a friend of mine does this evidence journal and she writes down everything in the day that she deemed to be a miracle. And you know, she looks back and goes look at all these beautiful things that occurred, right?

Alison Martin: So our takeaway is take your angel to a movie.

Jean Trebek: Right. Exactly. Yes. You have guardian angels that are just standing by waiting for your command to help out, right.

Alison Martin: Thank you so much. And we’ll see you next time.

Jean Trebek: Yeah. Have a beautiful day.

Alison Martin: Hi, Jean.

Jean Trebek: Hi, Alison.

Alison Martin: How are you?

Jean Trebek: I’m great. How are you?

Alison Martin: I’m pretty good. I had a very, very busy week, and.

Jean Trebek: We both did.

Today we’re going to introduce you to Rebecca Heiss. And we loved her. I thought she was just great. She wrote a book called Instinct: Rewire Your Brain with Science Backed Solutions to Increase Productivity and Achieve Success. And I literally could not put this book down. She shows you a lot of what evolution has left us with, like fear or gender roles or things like this, and how you can overcome that to really benefit yourself, your work environment and your family. It’s amazing.

Jean Trebek: She she also offers, which I was doing online, this Fear(less) modules. It’s a class she gives you every day. She presents new things to consider. And it’s about eight minutes every day. And it’s brilliant. You know, she talks about that the brain does not know the difference between something that’s real and something that’s imaginary.

Alison Martin: Right… which is so interesting because then you’re really in control. You are really in control.

Jean Trebek: And staying present…Staying present. She gives tips on a healthy brain and I think everyone we’ve ever spoken to, everyone that talks about healthy brain always talks about the importance of sleep.

Alison Martin: Yes. So I’m going to lay down. You shall finish this interview. Well, here she is. We think you’re going to love her. Here’s Rebecca.

Rebecca Heiss: It’s so nice to meet you all.

Jean Trebek: It’s so great to meet you.

Alison Martin: We’re chatting about your book and your modules.

Rebecca Heiss: Get out of here. Oh, my gosh, that makes me feel so good. Are you enjoying it so far?

Alison Martin: I well, I love this book. I read a lot of books. And the way we get through them is, I say 50 pages a day. You know, but I couldn’t put this one down.

Rebecca Heiss: Oh. Thank you. That means so much. Gosh.

Alison Martin: You’re exactly my type of person. Because you’re based in science. And I find it fascinating that then you talk about your personal things and make it be, from my point of view, a little more spiritual.

Rebecca Heiss: I’m with you on that. I’m with you on that. This is my first book. I learned a lot, including sometimes we have some compromises that we need to make when we go with a publisher. Love them. Don’t want to speak poorly of them, but yeah, for the next one, think… Think they’ll be a little more, as I like to call it, the woo woo is slipping in.

Alison Martin: That’s good.

Jean Trebek: You know, I think, Rebecca, and I’m Jean by the way.

Alison Martin: I’m Alison. Hi.

Rebecca Heiss: Hi, Jean. Hi, Alison. It’s nice to meet you all. Well, I was on at 9:00 this morning because dum dum here could not figure out time zones. And then I was like, no, no, this is this is not right. We got to figure it out.

Alison Martin: Where are you?

Rebecca Heiss: Well, I was on the West coast yesterday and then flew home today. I’m in Greenville, South Carolina today, so I’m back home with my sleeping dog.

Jean Trebek: So cute.

Rebecca Heiss: That’s goodness. Always at my side.

Jean Trebek: Well, what I wanted to say is that I’m noticing that science and spirituality are really showing up more and more together that they’re honoring each other. So I love that.

Rebecca Heiss: I couldn’t agree more. I don’t know where you are in the book or don’t even remember if I put this in the book, but one of my spiritual awakenings was recognizing, like, how little we see until we start paying attention to it. And, you know, I studied birds and taking the bird under UV light for the first time. And I was like, oh my gosh, there’s so many patterns and colors that we just don’t see and that doesn’t mean that they don’t exist or it’s not real. It’s that we don’t have the tools to measure it or the ability to see it as humans. And so often I think, you know, science and spirituality are this are this magical mystery of going, okay, we don’t have the tools, but that doesn’t mean that it’s not happening or that it’s not out there. And so as a scientist, like that’s part of the fun for me. It’s like, that’s exciting. Like, can we find a tool? Can we find a way? And if we can’t, okay. It still can be real. So yeah.

Alison Martin: In your modules online you share about going, I think it was to San Juan and not knowing what to do. And I was like, yes. And I still don’t even know if I know what my therapist said, “well, what what’s fun for you?” And I’m like, me alone? I don’t know. Jean has this thing where she can be doing something in a city alone, and I’m always like, wow, look at that. What do you think?

Rebecca Heiss: Yeah. Alison, that’s fascinating because my sister and I had this same conversation today. This Is still something I struggle with of like, okay, I, I’m super, super lucky. I’ve been incredibly lucky in my life and don’t have to work. Right. So. Well, what do I want? What do I want to do? Like what brings me joy? And I think for so long, you know, and no fault of our parents or anybody trying to nurture us, but it’s like, okay, you need to survive. You need to achieve this. You need to get this. You need to get the house. You need to get the things so that you’re secure. But we’re never coached on like, then what? Like, well, now I’ve got the things so….? It is really hard to tap into that self.

Alison Martin: How did you how did you solve that for yourself. Have you found your stuff that brings you joy?

Rebecca Heiss: Yeah, it’s an ongoing journey, honestly. I’ll tell you, Alison, I’m still not there. Every day I wake up and I’m like, all right, how does it feel today? And I think so much of it is tapping back into that intuition, not having to be science led, not having to have the exact answer and just going – this feels good. Let me do more of that. And then when it stops feeling good – okay, back off. You don’t have to. You know, again, I think, we live in a society where if it’s good, then more is obviously better. And, um, and that’s not the case. So, less and less and less and less has been my secret. The less stuff I have, the less I travel, the less I do, the more I find peace. That’s been and being able to tap back into – Oh right, this is what brings me joy. Right. Yeah. It’s hard though I think.

Alison Martin: Is it the should?

Rebecca Heiss: Those shoulds? Yeah.

Alison Martin: I know like for me, I live with a lot of shoulds. Do you?

Jean Trebek: I’m really trying not to. Like being aware of when when I say to myself- Am I doing this out of inspiration, obligation or desperation?

Rebecca Heiss: Oh, that is so good. Yeah, he says. Wait, inspiration… desperation… Or what was the other one?

Jean Trebek: Obligation.

Rebecca Heiss: Obligation. I’m writing that down. That’s good.

Jean Trebek: And if you’re doing something out of obligation, just own it.

Rebecca Heiss: Yeah..

Jean Trebek: Okay, I’m going to take my mom to the dentist. I’m not wired, but I’m not desperate.

Alison Martin: Do you still live by shoulds at all, Rebecca?

Rebecca Heiss: Oh, sure. Yeah. Listen, I’d love to say I’m completely free of it, but I’m not. That wouldn’t be honest. I hear a lot of shoulds now. I think the difference is I’ve become very conscious of them. And so now it’s more of my choice. And I’m going, you should. Well, should you? Do you have to? Is it obligation? Right? And then it becomes actually I really like this framework. Well it’s an obligation. It’s an obligation. You know, it’s not it’s nothing inspired about, you know, having to go to the gym and having to lift weights. But I do feel better and I know that I will. And so tricking my brain into remembering the feeling that I’ll have when I’m done. That is kind of the inspiration to do the shoulds that feel like obligations to me.

Jean Trebek: Right, yeah.

Alison Martin: Otherwise we might just all stay in bed all day.

Rebecca Heiss: I mean, honestly, when people say like they don’t want any stress in their life, I’m like, well, that’s literally what’s going to happen because you won’t get out of bed, right? And don’t think it leads to a very fulfilling life. But. Yeah, that’s that’s an option. Actually there’s really there’s been really interesting research that I came across recently about the most purposeful, fulfilled lives. And this was like a massive (you probably have seen this), but it was a massive study across like a large swath of Americans. And the number one correlate to a meaningful, purposeful life was stress. So like stressful events that happened in the past, stressful moments in the present and even like future worry and anxiety were predictors of a fulfilled, purposeful life. And I was like, oh, all right. That’s something to keep in mind as I’m in that, you know, distress zone.

Jean Trebek: Right.

Jean Trebek: That’s really interesting. And what I thought was interesting, I have a child who’s non-binary. So the gender sex thing was… it’s amazing because it’s so insidious like the, you know, like women not promoting women or like just the numbers you gave of the amount of women, that’s amazing to me.

Rebecca Heiss: Yeah. It’s funny. So I’m giving a TEDx on Wednesday. Um, oh gosh.But specifically on gender and and power and how culturally we’ve defined power as achievement. Right? Success is money and finance and politics and power. And we’ve neglected to cheerlead, I think, men or non-binary people into feminine power, into vulnerability, into connection, into all of these. These, these superpowers of women that don’t have monetary value. And so they’ve not been seen as as powerful. There’s a really interesting, uh, approach there. I think we’ll see. We’ll see how it goes.

Alison Martin: Good luck.

Jean Trebek: Yeah.

Rebecca Heiss: Thanks. You may hear about it, but you probably won’t remember.

Alison Martin: Remember stress makes you have a better life. You just told us that. So there you go.

Rebecca Heiss: That’s right. Increases my performance. I got this.

Jean Trebek: You know, one of, Rebecca, one of the modules on that amazing course that you’ve developed. I mean, there’s so much packed in there. I was telling Alison, I really think that course should be a mandatory class taken.

Rebecca Heiss: Thank you.

Alison Martin: Truly,

Jean Trebek: It should a required class like as a senior in high school.

Rebecca Heiss: Thank you. That means so much. We were just talking when you got up there about purpose and what drives you and the shoulds. And I feel like one of my biggest drivers is trying to get something like this into high schools, because when I’m asked my favorite talk that I’ve ever given, I’ll tell you a very quick story. I was giving a talk in in Charlotte, and this gentleman overheard me and he wasn’t part of the talk. He kind of like walked in at the end and he pulled me aside afterwards. He’s like, you know, my kid is playing basketball. He’s on this elite basketball team for 15 and under, you know, like ranked in the nation. And their team is just sucking. They’re just really playing poorly this tournament. Would you give them ten minutes of your time? I was like, yeah, of course. Like I’ll go and give a little… listen, it’s been a minute since I’ve talked to 15 year old boys. And I was like, you know, I’m giving a terrible, terrible presentation. They are just completely zoned out. I saved it a little bit at the end, and I gave them a couple little things to try. And the the coaches invited me to the game, and I watched them start to implement these things as they played. And it felt like I was watching Disney movie, like they should have gotten creamed. And then the fourth quarter, you know, they’re up by eight points. There’s 30s left and this kid comes off the bench who’s been playing just he’s been lighting it up all night. And he finds me in the stands and he just whispers. He mouths to me. – THANK YOU  And I’m just like.

Alison Martin: Oh my gosh.

Jean Trebek: Yeah.

Rebecca Heiss: I’m just like, losing my mind because you think about the power of stuff like this. I wrote this course for the 16 year old me. You know, this is the stuff that I needed at that age. Um, and I’m still teaching it to, you know, 70 year old CEOs..

Jean Trebek: It’s amazing and there’s just so much that you offer in the online class that you give just one thing that, I mean, there was so much that stood out for me, but one in particular was the difference between being busy and being productive. I thought that was so great. Staying focused and that we’re not meant to be multitaskers.

Rebecca Heiss: Oh my gosh. And then the society that we live in today, like good luck ping ding ding. You know, you’re just like popping everywhere. It’s the confetti – time confetti – You know two minutes here, 30s there, and trying to stay focused in a distracted world is… Good luck being productive. Being productive on something that’s meaningful and valuable to you rather than I still find myself in days that I have to reset and I have to go back to my own teachings because I spent all morning answering emails and then I’m like, wait, where did the day go? You know, I was supposed to be writing or I was supposed to be doing something productive, and all I did was answer emails all morning. That’s how it sucks you in.

Alison Martin: When I was reading this, I did not realize, like, the idea that I’m having too much choice is not necessarily positive. And do you think there’s hope? Where is your hope lie? When you wrote something like this.

Rebecca Heiss: You know, I often describe myself as an optimist and a realist. So it is this constant battle, right? I do think that this stuff is tough, right? You’re fighting against 100, thousand, 200,000 years of evolution that is built your brain in this very specific way. And my optimist side says, yeah, but you can drive and you can drive for an hour completely subconsciously, like you’re screaming at the kids in the back, you’re adjusting your podcast. You remember the first time you drove a car, right? Your hands are tied and you’re like, oh my gosh, there’s street signs. I got to pay attention to all of this, right? Very different experience. And so if we can train our subconscious brain to do this like complex changing task, like driving, I think it’s I think there’s a lot of hope when we recognize the changes that we’re looking to make. Um, I think there’s great power there. And I’ll add to that, there was a study. Oh, man, I want to say it 2003. Don’t quote me on that. I’ll look back,,, On epigenetics. And essentially they took these mice. They sprayed a scent of cherry blossoms and then immediately shocked these these male mice now sounds awful. Sorry, science. I know I’m giving scientists a bad name, but what happened was they developed this basic conditioning response, right? They started to shake and shiver and be fearful every time they smelled cherry blossoms. And then they took these male, these male mice, and they bred them to female mice that had never smelled cherry blossoms, never been exposed to the shock. And the pups, the offspring were then exposed to cherry blossoms. And what happened? They shook as if this fear had been genetically coded and transferred to their offspring. Which is like mind blowing when you think about generational trauma. And it gives me a lot of hope, because that also means that we are our own wizards, right? We have instead of looking for the wizard behind the curtain, right to tell us, oh, you’ve got the power. You know, we’re wearing the ruby slippers. We all have the ability to actually change a lot of this wiring and allow the next generation allow ourselves first, but definitely the next generation to see things differently and to have a different response. So I think that’s really, really powerful.

Alison Martin: So so from that I remember I remember you talking about that my study, which kind of blew my mind a little bit and frightened me a little bit… Because I’m a parent, right? I have two kids. And first I thought of all the things that I experienced that I think are traumatic. And then, like, I just wanted to hold them. And then think about what the world has been through in terms of Covid and these wars, Does that mean that my kids, having experienced that, that Covid will be affecting us for some for generations?

Rebecca Heiss: So it’s a yes. And um, I think yeah, absolutely. There’s certainly that trauma and they’re completely natural to have that fear response of like, oh my gosh, what did I pass along? You know… And our brain is wired to see all the negative things, all the trauma that we’re passing on. Think of all the good things that happened to you. Think of your response to go hug your kids like that right there. That makes me tear up, because that’s the kind of response that’s getting passed along as well. And so just having that mind shift of, okay, yes, there are definitely some traumas that I’m passing along and look at the resiliency that I’m passing along. Did we make it through Covid? Did we have deeper relationships as a result? Did we really discover what’s important during Covid? Like there’s some really valuable stuff that we get to pass along as well. And I think I think it’s easy to skip over that and to miss that. Um, because again, that’s how our brain is wired, but it makes me feel better. Yeah, sure.

Alison Martin: This is all about my insecurity. So thank you so much. But  I think that’s right. Like we talk about that… Something will happen and Jean will say you’re doing a great job or look at this, or look how you’ve helped your kids and likewise. And so I think that’s right. I was just – you’re right – my brain was just looking at the negative stuff when I heard that.

Rebecca Heiss: Which is totally natural. Right. That’s exactly what you’re supposed to do. So thank your brain and then you know, and then say, okay, well what else is there? What else? What else actually actually pass along. That’s that’s powerful. That’s good. Yeah.

Alison Martin: Also. You met your husband? Boyfriend?

Rebecca Heiss: Husband.

Alison Martin: Yeah, on a plane.

Rebecca Heiss: And that’s the best story.

Alison Martin: Okay, but wait. He’s the guy that it will have to interview people for a job. And if the first one comes in and is it? I was like, I love this guy. Yeah.

Rebecca Heiss: Yeah. I mean he’s an all in kind of guy. Right? He’s like here’s the boxes. This ticks the box I’m not going to maximize I’m not going to look for the the Barbie girl with an IQ of 400 who’s going to be out saving the world. You know what, Rebecca ticks the boxes. Let’s do this. So thank goodness I got lucky there. I think, um, I got really lucky. He’s pretty incredible. I forget exactly how much I told in the book about that story, but met me on the plane, proposed to me on the plane. Um, no, it’s pretty special.

Alison Martin: That’s amazing.

Rebecca Heiss: Oh, I didn’t tell you that?

Alison Martin: No. All you say is, what’s his name, Dr. Jovan or…?

Rebecca Heiss: Devins.

Alison Martin: Now you got to tell us.

Rebecca Heiss: All right, I’ll tell you because it’s a great story. So I give up my seat so a couple can sit together. I was flying to California to give a speech, and he was flying to Kansas City to go to a meeting. So we were both flying out of, out of Greenville, South Carolina, which is where we live. We lived about ten minutes apart at the time, and I’d given up my seat. So this couple in front could sit together and I’m like, Karma’s already rewarded me, right? The seat next to me is empty. I’m like, yeah, this is great. Starting to stretch out because it’s a 6 a.m. flight and putting my earbuds in and last minute, this tall, handsome Irishman comes and plunks down beside me. Now I’m like, it’s 6 a.m. I’m not a big plane talker. Anyway, so I’m putting my earbuds in and then he starts up this conversation and he’s got this really thick, beautiful Irish accent. And I’m like, okay, all right, I’ll talk with this guy. And an hour and a half into the flight, he asked me to dinner and so we agreed to dinner. A week later, we’re both back home. We go out to dinner. The dinner is incredible. It lasts like six hours. And as he tells it, the next day he went out and bought a ring and two tickets for the exact same flight, the exact same time, the exact same seats, six months to the day. And he proposed to me on that flight. And it’s it was definitely.

Alison Martin: That’s amazing.

Rebecca Heiss: Yeah, it’s pretty romantic, right? Yeah it is. He did well. He did well.

Alison Martin: And did you know?

Rebecca Heiss: Oh, instantly. I mean, I’m not I as extroverted as I come across, I’m a little bit of an introvert, and I like my little space on planes and just kind of just zone in and, um, and couldn’t stop talking with him. I mean, I texted my best friend right afterwards and was like, I just met the man of my dreams. It was it was pretty instant.

Alison Martin: So sweet.

Jean Trebek: That’s a little bit like your story, Alison… when you met Dan, you felt immediately

Rebecca Heiss: Oh, that’s so special.

Alison Martin: My husband and I are actors. And years before that, I had been in a bad, bad, bad relationship. So I was at home at my mom’s house, and I watched a TV commercial and it’s this guy with these sons and I said, why can’t I find a guy like this? Why can’t I find this type of a guy? And my mom says, because it’s a commercial. Like that was years years later, I’m at my soon to be husband’s house, and he’s cleaning out to move in with me. And I pop in his reel and he’s the guy in the commercial.

Rebecca Heiss: Oh stop it.

Jean Trebek: I love that.

Rebecca Heiss: See, I don’t think the universe makes mistakes, I really don’t. I think that was that is incredible. You know? And that’s you probably met at the right time. You probably weren’t ready for each other before. Had to go through some things, learn some things and wow.

Alison Martin: It’s pretty it’s pretty great.

Rebecca Heiss: That’s incredible.

Jean Trebek: Well, I wanted to, Rebecca, would you share with our listeners? Sure. The fact that you say the brain cannot differentiate between real and what’s not real, the story you tell it. I think that’s so important. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Rebecca Heiss: Absolutely. I’ll tell a story, a science story first to help illustrate it. So one of my favorite pieces of research of all time is this group of housekeepers that was split into two different conditions and in one condition, the researchers told the group nothing. And the other condition, they simply told them that they were meeting the Surgeon General’s requirement for exercise. Okay, so this is literally just words being said. And after four weeks time, they found a massive difference between the two groups, despite the fact that there had been no changes in heart rate or steps or diet. All of that’s factored out of the analysis. But the group that was simply told that they were meeting the Surgeon General’s requirement for exercise had lower weight, lower blood pressure, lower body fat, lower waist to hip ratio, and a lower body mass index. Now, I’ll tell your listeners, right now, I read that study and I was like, you’re an athlete. You’re an athlete. You’re an athlete, right? I’m like, working hard to tell my brain the story I want it to hear. But I think it speaks to just how often we’re very dismissive of the placebo effect. We’re like, oh, well, that’s just the story your brain is telling… Then like, yeah, it’s really, really powerful. It’s creating neural circuitry and wiring your brain to specifically see and feel and interact with the world in a specific way.

Rebecca Heiss: So our brain is creating reality all of the time, and there’s all kinds of really interesting visualizations and studies we can talk about. But probably the easiest one for people to recognize, as long as we’re talking about love and and meeting the love of our life, right, is it’s called the honeymoon effect. When you first meet that person you love for the person you loved or it doesn’t have to be your love now or it can be. We won’t tell. But think about that person. Think about that person. Think about when you first met that person. Now, you could have been going through the absolute wringer, right? It could have been pouring down rain. Your boss might be screaming at you. You get in a little car wreck like it’s a nightmare. But that’s not what you’re thinking about, right? You are like, high as a kite. Life is amazing because all of your focus is on love, right? And that effect is so powerful, I think, in demonstrating how much we control our own reality, how much the stories we’re telling ourselves create this experience of either wow, abundance and life and hope and excitement or oh my gosh, I cannot believe I have to get through this day again. And it’s a it’s a pretty powerful testament.

Alison Martin: Yeah, that’s that’s amazing. I don’t know how to word this. Do you practice manifestation? Do you know what I mean?We were inundated with the secret. You talk a little bit about manifesting. I would love to hear what you think.

Rebecca Heiss: Yeah I’m a big fan of manifesting actually. And I always put a little asterisk there. I’m like for scientists and skeptics because I was like, this is all woo woo. This is garbage. I don’t I don’t believe any of this. And then of course, had to, you know, had to go to the science. And I’m like, oh, uh, there’s actually a lot here. Holy smokes. This makes a whole lot of sense. So do I practice manifesting? Absolutely. And here’s what I’ll say. All of us practice manifesting. You may not do it intentionally, but you are manifesting all the time based on what you’re focusing on, right? Where is your brain pulling you? And unfortunately for most of us, it’s pulling us towards the negative because the negative stuff is the stuff that can kill us and our brain is really, really aware of that. So, consciously pulling ourselves out of that and focusing on the positive, focusing on the opportunity, focusing on the hope. I think that’s an act of of visualization, of manifesting. So I do a lot of visualization. Um, the simplest one is just in, in public speaking. So I’m on the circuit. I do a lot of, I do a lot of presentations from stages. And if I told you that I wasn’t nervous before I went on every single time, I’d be a liar. Right? Like every single time my heart rate starts to pound, I sweat, my mouth dries up, I get a full on stress response, and I work through visualizing myself on the specific stage, looking out at all of the individual’s faces, seeing their smiles, recognizing that they’re they’re picking up what I’m putting down right and seeing the changes that that are happening.

Rebecca Heiss: And as I do that I can calm down and I can kind of live the experience that I’m about to have so that when I go on stage, it’s like going through the motions. It’s my brain already has laid down the foundation of what I’m going to experience, and so it’s a lot easier to just fire those neurons. Then I’ll warn you that, you know, if you do the opposite and you’re like, oh, I’m going to fumble, I’m going to mumble, I’m going to screw it all up. Yeah, you’re likely manifesting that as well. So it’s work and I think so much of that is just consciously working with your brain, with your biology, thanking it rather than getting frustrated, like, thank you, I know you’re protecting me. Um, it’s weird for your listeners that can’t see me. I literally will pat my brain and like, pat my head. I’m like, oh, you’re taking care of me. I know, I just don’t need you right now. Thank you. I know you’re protecting me, but we’re going to do some we’re going to do something good.

Jean Trebek: Yeah, the thing is to actually do the work. It’s great you hear these beautiful tips that you give… but it comes down to actually doing it, you know?

Rebecca Heiss: So it’s still work. Yeah. I mean there’s a really cool study on visualization. And like they had people visualizing exercising. So like visualizing doing bicep curls and they actually grew their biceps y’all. Like they grew their biceps by visualizing. And I’m like this is amazing. I never have to go to the gym again. But actually it’s just as much work because you still have to go through the motions and really work at it. It’s just a different kind of work. So yeah, it’s work. It’s work. You got to take the actions.

Alison Martin: Aside from like public speaking, where you might get nervous, but it’s something that you are doing. Do you still find yourself occasionally in places of fear?

Rebecca Heiss: Oh. Every day. Every day I’m in fear. And I think, um, you know, as a stress physiologist, so often people come to me and they’re like, oh, tell me all your secrets. You must have no stress and no fear. And I’m like, no, no, no, no. I have so much fear. And the reality is I get to feel it. And I think so often what we do is we push it aside and we push it down. We’re like, I’m not going to deal with it. I’m not going to think about it. I’m not going to worry about it. And instead what that does is it’s like telling our brain, don’t think about pink elephants. Like, don’t you don’t you think about pink? Alison- I see you think I see you… you got pink elephant just dancing around your head right now. And so I feel fear every day. I think the difference is I use it, I transform it, I allow it to fuel me rather than to hold me back. Because that fear in my life, I’m incredibly lucky. So in my life, I don’t feel like the fear is not going to kill me. You know, I don’t live in a war zone. I’m not being stalked by tigers. There’s very few things that come up that that are fearful, that are actual life and death situations for me. So when I reframe it and I’m like, well, what’s the cost of missing out? What’s the cost of inaction here? What if I don’t do it so often? Those are the bigger fears, right? It’s the regrets. The let’s go all in. Let’s give it a shot. What’s the worst that can happen or what’s the best that can happen? Right. Um, and that’s been a really powerful recognition for me, is that fear doesn’t go away. We just get to use it rather than have it use us.

Alison Martin: Jean laughs. Because we talked to all these people. And I’m always like, do you get upset? You know, like, are you like this all the time? I find that very comforting. I was hoping to that you could just talk a little bit about that incident at the restaurant.

Rebecca Heiss: Yes, I can talk so much about that.

Alison Martin: That is so common. And I myself have been attacked at knifepoint. And so when I read that, I thought, um, I found that such an interesting story because you were very honest about it. You weren’t like this hero that kicked him under the table, can you just talk about it a little bit?

Rebecca Heiss: Yeah, absolutely.

Alison Martin: So I’m sorry if this upsets you.

Rebecca Heiss: No, no, no, actually, I appreciate it. In fact, listen, I wish more people would ask about this. This is the thing that I want to be speaking about a lot more because it impacts so many women. And we just we don’t talk about it enough. So what Alison is referring to here is a story that I wrote about in my book about being in a restaurant and having a guy kind of slide in and put his hands on me. And instead of doing the things that we are taught to do as women in society here to fight, to flee, to run, to scream, to punch, to kick. I did nothing, I froze. And it’s sat with me like this massive guilt of this like second victimization of like, well, why didn’t you? Why did you allow that to happen to you? And I waited for my friend to come and rescue me. And it was so embarrassing. Because I’m sitting there like I’m a full grown adult. You can’t tell this, but I’m six foot. Like I’m six foot. I’m athletic. Like I can knock this guy out, but I don’t, and I don’t do any of this, and it drives me absolutely nuts. So this happened actually multiple times. And I think in the story in the book, I probably skipped skipped a few, but it wasn’t until my late 30s that this happened again, and it was a little bit more of a serious incident that it finally clicked for me. Because I’m a stress physiologist, I literally study stress, and I had never applied what we see in stress biology to myself and women, 70% of women- the number one response to stress is to freeze, because fighting typically is a poor choice, because men typically are larger than us and stronger than us. And I’m not trying to insult women. That is just biologically the case. They’re typically faster than us, so running away usually not the best option. So biology has really equipped us with this third alternative to a stressful situation with a potential predator, which is to freeze and appease sometimes looks like sitting very still and smiling. And that is a physiological response that just does not get overridden by me saying, oh, I’m just going to punch this guy. And so I think it’s so, so important for women to hear and know that it’s not your fault like that is. You cannot change that. That is that is wired into your biology. So be aware of it, forgive yourself for it, and think it’s just as essential that we train men to recognize this response as well, because so often they see a woman smiling at them and they’re like, well, she’s into me, right? This is this is not consent, unfortunately. Right. And then our programmed biologically wired for sexual overperception. So they think women are into them a lot more than they are. Sorry guys. That’s again biological programming. So you put these two situations together and you have a woman who’s frozen and perhaps smiling, and a man whose biology is basically organized to help him think that every woman is into him. And you’re creating absolute disastrous opportunities here for, for sexual assault and worse. So, yeah, it’s really important that we talk about the freeze response and understand it at a biological level.

Alison Martin: So you said, well, first of all, I think that’s so important because during MeToo when I was watching like all the stories coming up and I thought, you know, people would say, well, why didn’t you just leave the hotel room? And I’m like, that’s not that’s not how it happens. Maybe for some people that is and great. But for some people it that’s not how it happens.  So how did you how do you overcome something like the freeze response?

Rebecca Heiss: Oh, man, I wish I could tell you that it was just an easy thing to do. You can. Most of the time. And it is really painful training, right? It is visualization. It’s the same training that it takes to for us to shift any, any triggering wiring in our brain. And so let me ask you this. Actually consider this. Think about somebody throwing a piece of paper in your face. Right. And then don’t flinch. That’s what you’re asking people to do, right. When you’re asking them to override these, these physiological responses. Um, and is it doable. Yeah. Is it really, really hard. Absolutely. So you can do a lot of visualization of those specific scenarios, which is, again, really painful and very triggering for a lot of people. Um, and you can work towards moving out of the freeze response, but there’s no guarantee. Um, and in those heightened physiological states, we are not ourselves. You’re not using this frontal lobe. You don’t get an option to choose. It is just straight into survival mode. So so yeah, thank you for asking about that.

Alison Martin: The thing to take away for women is the guilt portion. I think when I was attacked, people said, well, what were you wearing? And I was like, what? I don’t even know. I couldn’t even understand that. So I think the real thing I want women to hear is it’s not… You don’t have to feel any guilt. No, this is not your fault.

Rebecca Heiss: You couldn’t have done it differently. You could not have done it differently. And your your brain and body were betraying you, but they were doing what they needed to do to help you survive. And I think that is so, so valuable to understand and recognize. Yeah. Thank you for asking that.

Alison Martin: Well, thank you for telling your story.

Rebecca Heiss: For sure.

Alison Martin: You look like you have a list.

Jean Trebek: Here are questions for you.

Rebecca Heiss: I love it.

Jean Trebek: Well, you know, I know we’re we’re getting a little bit close.

Alison Martin: We’re running or sorry we’re talking so long.

Rebecca Heiss: Please I love this. This is this is the highlight of my day. I love talking to bright women.

Jean Trebek: Okay. So let’s let’s talk about how important it is to own your fear.

Rebecca Heiss: Yeah, you say more about that.

Jean Trebek: You have a module about it. And in the module you use the Superman Kryptonite. And I love I love that owning your fear. My husband was a big champion. He say to my kids, own your sh*t, you know, own it. Don’t don’t project it. Don’t. Yeah. That’s that’s your Achilles heel, as you say. So, Rebecca. What? Want to talk about that a little bit.

Rebecca Heiss: Yeah, sure. Think. You know, self-awareness is so important and so valuable and so, so difficult because our brain, again, is trying to protect us. And it’s like, no, I’m amazing at everything. Why why would you ever ask me about my weakness? You know, my weakness is that I work so hard. No, dude. Everybody has a weakness and it’s okay. And I think the more we’re vulnerable and we’re open about. Hey, listen, you know, I’ll often take offense to things that I shouldn’t take offense to. Okay. If I know that about myself, and I share it with people. Then they can help me adapt. First of all, they’re going to be more sensitive when I do that and then react, right. They’re like, oh, I get it. So I talk about flaunting your Kryptonite. And the idea here is, you know, Superman, even Superman had Kryptonite. Even Superman has has some kind of weakness. And instead of hiding that, what if Superman had been, like, all right, world, you know, Kryptonite. It’s a real problem for me. Um, if he had done that immediately, everybody’s head goes to – well, then everybody knows how to kill him. Yeah. So there’s a handful of people that might abuse that, but there’s 99% of the world that goes – cool. We’re going to be on the lookout for that Kryptonite, and we’re going to warn you and help you when it comes your way. Um, so, like I always think of I don’t know why, but I always think of Wonder Woman, like, swooping in in those moments. And it’s like, don’t worry, I got your back, I see the Kryptonite. Um, I use Steve Jobs a lot as an example here, because Steve Jobs was an incredible leader by a lot of measures. But even Steve Jobs was very aware that his empathy scale was pretty low. And everybody knew that. And that was a huge flaunting of Kryptonite, because when empathy was involved, everybody’s like, Steve, get out of the room, we don’t get you’re actually hurting us, right? And that made him a very powerful human being that sort of recognition and flaunting of Kryptonite.

Jean Trebek: Yeah, yeah. And it’s really not about being a perfect person because there is no such thing.

Rebecca Heiss: Golly.

Jean Trebek: And I love that science and spirituality are championing – get away from being perfect. You know this is a fearful world. This is. But you can like you said, Rebecca, reframed certain things and have tools to navigate yourself through life situations so that you’re not a victim of it.

Rebecca Heiss: If you have to be perfect, the world is an incredibly scary place if you have to be perfect because look I mean like got wrinkles coming out. I got some gray hairs up there like. Heaven forbid I have to be perfect in every way. And I do think a lot of us fall into that perfectionist trap. And then it is an incredibly scary world. But I again, I like using people as examples. And Jennifer Lawrence is one of my classic examples here. We all everybody loves Jennifer Lawrence, everybody loves Jennifer Lawrence. Why? She gaffed, she falls at red carpet events, she laughs at herself because she doesn’t take herself all that. She doesn’t have to be perfect and we love her more for it. So again, keeping that in mind, realizing that like, if I have a booger hanging out of my nose right now, I’m sorry. But like, you know, it makes me human, right? Because we’ve all had those situations. And so instead of being so fearful of that, we can fear a little bit less. And it invites everybody else around us to do the same, like, oh, I can breathe a little easier now too.

Alison Martin: Could you tell us a little bit if you do you have a spiritual practice or is there something that you do that maybe you could just let us know? Because we just it’s so interesting how you’re like both.

Rebecca Heiss: Well, so I grew up in the church. My dad is a minister. Um, and I should say was a minister. He got kicked out of the church. And I’m super, super proud of him for for marrying LGBTQ community members, which. You know. Thanks, dad. So he set a really good example. What’s that?

Alison Martin: Wait, he was kicked out?

Rebecca Heiss: Yeah, yeah.

Jean Trebek: Wow.

Rebecca Heiss: So I feel like had a really good example early on in life of religion, spirituality and science. Kind of like all and finding the good, bad and ugly and in all of them and really picking and choosing what I wanted to to exemplify. So do I have a spiritual practice? I think, yeah, I think my spiritual practice is spreading joy. Um, that is truly my one goal in life. Honestly, I, I have a mission to spread happy. Um, and that is. And it’s just not that hard because I feel like when I, when I show up, like, just appreciating life and appreciating finding the joy, everybody around me reflects that back to me. And then it’s this absolutely addictive incredible. And it gives me chills. I find awe in the every day because of that. So to me, the, I guess, spiritual practice is recognizing that we are all one and we’re all reflections of one another. So if I’m seeing a lot of ugly and negativity in the world, I probably need to check in with myself and see what I’m putting out. Um, because it’s a beautiful, beautiful world that we have the privilege of sharing and the small, tiny moment in time that we all get to share together. So what a great opportunity to make it ours.

Alison Martin: I love that you say that.

Jean Trebek: You could not have wrapped up better when.

Alison Martin: When you write your next book. Can we talk to you again?

Rebecca Heiss: Oh my gosh, can I interview y’all for my next book? This is great. I love this.

Alison Martin: We’ll be your friends…

Jean Trebek: We’ll be like your guinea pigs.

Rebecca Heiss: That’d be great. Let’s just get together and drink wine and let the book write itself. I feel like that could.

Alison Martin: We would love that. You’re so great

Jean Trebek: You’re such a beacon of love and light and joy.

Alison Martin: I have to tell you, though, my favorite module is when someone scares you and you start laughing. And I love that you kept that in.

Rebecca Heiss: Well, you know.

Alison Martin: I played that a few times.

Rebecca Heiss: You know what? Life is goofy. We are goofy beings. I think more people need to show that side of themselves like we are absolutely ridiculous beings. So let it rip, let it rip. Thank you for that. I’m glad you liked that.

Alison Martin: Yeah, you were great and we’d love to like, you know, catch up with you again and, you know, likewise. Please stay in touch because you really are so special.

Jean Trebek: You are.

Rebecca Heiss: Oh, gosh. You all too. Thank you. This has been like, the highlight of my whole week. Thank you, thank you, thank you. This has been an absolute pleasure. I hope your listeners get something valuable out of it and that, and don’t hesitate to reach out if there’s anything that I can do to add some joy and some love to to y’all’s life.

Alison Martin: Break your leg on your Ted talk.

Rebecca Heiss: Thank you. I’ll do my best. I’ll play. I won’t break anything, but yeah.

Jean Trebek: Thank you. Rebecca.

Jean Trebek: It’s been a pleasure. Thank you, Alison, bye Jean. Great to see you all.

Jean Trebek: Take care. Bye. Cheers. Bye, guys.

Alison Martin: Okay, here we are.

Jean Trebek: Oh my gosh, she had so much to say. I could listen to her and talk with her all day.

Alison Martin: Her information is personal and yet science based, which I think is so important. You know.

Jean Trebek: And she’s so humble and she’s so authentic and vulnerable and she’s just an amazing woman. I love your conversation with her about the time that she was sitting in the booth at the restaurant, and this man came over. That was that was quite something.

Alison Martin: And so important for women and men to hear. I think it’s just very important. And also her lightness and her enthusiasm I found so infectious. Didn’t you like her energy?

Jean Trebek: She definitely was not like a scientist with, you know, she’s just she’s beautiful inside and out. She’s got so much joy. And she said that her motto is is it? Her motto is like sharing joy or happiness. I mean, what a beautiful motto.

Alison Martin: Yeah, just like ours. Right? Share the good. So if you have a chance, pick up Instinct or listen to her Fear(less) modules because they’re really, really worthwhile I think. Right?

Jean Trebek: Yeah.

Alison Martin: And now I think it’s time for us to get some sleep, a nap.

Jean Trebek: Have a great day. Bye.

Alison Martin: Hey, I think that’s it. Here we go.

Alison Martin: Okay. Say what you just said.

Jean Trebek: Oh, God.

Alison Martin: We want to get a vaccine for inside Wink, because we’re going viral. We don’t even really know what that means. That’s what’s so great about us.

Jean Trebek: That’s funny. I love seeing you laugh.

Alison Martin: Really? I feel very happy today.

Jean Trebek: Yeah, me too. Do you know why? Because we are interviewing Jill Renee Filler.

Alison Martin: It was actually because of Buddy. Oh, yes, buddy. Look, Jean’s daughter got a little puppy named Buddy, and we saw it yesterday. And I have to tell you, that little dog is a little piece of piece of work. We called him a little pocket.

Jean Trebek: He is the cutest little miniature Australian shepherd. And he is so perfect for Emily because she’s perfect. She’s just so wonderful. And this dog is wonderful.

Alison Martin: So and, you know, it’s a big change.

Jean Trebek: It is. I mean, sometimes you wonder, how should I have done this?

Alison Martin: And then everything changes and it seems to work out. It does. You know?

Jean Trebek: I think that’s something really good to remember, that things always work out.

Alison Martin: And things always change. There’s some times when you’re stuck in a feeling and you go, Oh, and then you realize, Oh, this is going to change, right? This is going to change. Okay, now who are we interviewing besides Buddy?

Jean Trebek: Oh, this beautiful friend of mine, Jill Renee Feller.

Alison Martin: Tell me a little bit about her. How did you meet her?

Jean Trebek: She was on a web seminar that I was listening to and that I still listen to John Burgos. And I just love Jill. I loved her out of the gate. And she is a really beautiful blend of practicality and owning your own spiritual sovereignty, not giving your power away, and all the while being very kind and respectful and loving.

Alison Martin: I actually loved this interview because she has strong ideals and beliefs and she’s positive and powerful. And I really I think you guys are going to enjoy this. So she’s amazing. Amazing. So so here she is.

Jean Trebek: So can you start from how you became interested in spirituality?

Jill Renee Feeler: Oh, there are so many ways to tell this story. And I’m guessing everybody that’s experiencing this can probably resonate with that. Let me just take a moment and try and describe it. I was and I’m still very right-brained, is the term that’s often used, very type-A, very achievement oriented, very competitive with myself type of person. And because of that, I have the ability to get kind of wrapped around the axle a little bit, high strung about things, overthink things. I don’t know if anyone here can relate to that.

Alison Martin: Not at all.

Jill Renee Feeler: There was a particular time, though, where I was very just uncertain about a different choice I wanted to make in my business career, my professional business career, and my sister in law, who’s much more open-minded about different ways of looking at things. She’s very she’s a novice, but very skilled at things like numerology, which I had never, you know, really taken an interest in, I’d never had an astrology reading or anything like that. So she’s over. We’re my husband and I and our kids were hosting probably like a Father’s Day or something like that. And she said, You look more stressed than usual. And I was like, Yeah, I’m trying to decide if I want to, you know, be the CEO of the screen company startup or if I’m going to stay in my perfect, cushy kind of startup corporate gig. And she goes, You should go see my psychic. And I was just thinking, Thanks, Julie. Like I was thinking in my head, that’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard of, is what I’m thinking. But not saying right.

Jill Renee Feeler: I’m polite. Um, but lo and behold, a couple days later, I was thinking, what is the harm? Um, what could I lose by going to hear somebody else’s perspective? And it just I just, for whatever reason, became open minded about that idea. So I reached out to my sister in law and got that person’s name. I did get a session from that person and it was very good. It was very insightful. She was very wise about things. And her perspective was just really, really spot on.

Alison Martin: Um, wow.

Jill Renee Feeler: And remember, still some of the words that she said. She, she knew why I was there. She was not trying to guess, like, why I was there. She already knew. And she wasn’t pretending, you know, that she, that she was guessing that she said, But we meditated for a while. And remember, that was a very comical experience because I had never done that before. And I thought, what is she doing? I’m just sitting here. I’m supposed to be doing something. Um, and then eventually she started recording. And I have a similar handheld recorder now that I use all these years later. And she said, You know, anyone can be the CEO of that startup company, Jill, but no one else can be the mother to your daughters. And my kids were little. They were like five and two, I think, at the time. And I was just like, Oh, did not expect that answer. And she wasn’t being like, you know, anti-feminist or anything like that. She was just telling me what I needed a reminder to hear.

Jill Renee Feeler: And I’m still embarrassed that I needed that reminder, but I needed that reminder. So there was so much more that she just was very, um, every all the information she gave me was so relevant and so insightful. So I was already kind of giving her a lot of credibility. And then she said, You’re incredibly intuitive, like you’re really connected to the Jesus and the Mary Magdalene storyline, and you’re not even tapping into that. And I was just thinking, what is she talking about? You know? But it did it. That was kind of like a crack in my doorway of what was possible. And within weeks, I would say paranormal sort of things started to happen. My youngest one was reading my mind, demonstrating telepathy, um, in ways that were completely just obvious. Um, and it really kind of took my world in a lot of ways, but I didn’t want to let go of what was before my, my opening to this and to a broader way of looking at myself was not based on hitting rock bottom. It wasn’t based on an identity crisis. Right? So and I don’t want to discount the relevance of that for other people, but mine wasn’t like that. Um, so I don’t have that Byron Katie kind of story, right. Um, but I like it that I was sort of intact in a lot of ways, but was also missing out on a lot at the same time. So my journey into this wider version of myself wasn’t giving up anything that I was, but it was adding a lot to what I am. And that worked really well for me.

Alison Martin: And how did that look for you like? What is in your toolbox now that wasn’t there before?

Jill Renee Feeler: A lot. I’ve had so many practitioners you know channelers, mediums, intuitives, readers, healers now consult with me that they are reaching out to me for advice and wisdom and insight and support. Now I can see that my journey is unique, that I, I wanted my brain wanted to get perfect at these things and learn from all these people and read all these books. But it was a small part of me and there was a bigger part of me just really. It’s almost like self advising. Do not follow the path of other teachers. Figure this out on your own practice experiment. Be curious. Stay curious about how you are connected in these ways. And I did feel this really strongly and I’m getting goosebumps as I think about it. Be willing to disagree with even the most popular teachings you come across.

Alison Martin: Wow.

Jill Renee Feeler: Not to be adversarial, but to expand the choices of of how we can feel the connection to source and to God that we are. So that has served me well.

Alison Martin: That that must have been a little nerve wracking.

Jill Renee Feeler: It was. But yet, I think because I’m such a perfectionist and, you know, follow the, you know, dot the I’s and cross the T’s in so many other parts of my life… It actually felt fun to do this in a more curious, experimental, you know, color outside the lines sort of framework that I was giving myself freedom to do that in… Not reckless because I’m still a very responsible- my values and integrity and never wanting to steer somebody wrong but also willing to say my piece while respecting other people’s opinion to hear me, but also disagree with me. That I’m okay with that and that I actually encourage that if somebody disagrees with me. So that was it was actually fun, Alison, in so many ways because in a way, I felt like I couldn’t get it wrong as long as it felt like growth, love and positive intentions and a win win opportunity for everybody.

Alison Martin: Oh, that’s great. That’s great. It sounds like it would be freeing.

Jean Trebek: I was just going to mention that I think that is the real nugget – to not go with what everyone else is doing. I mean, if that is true for you. But to go – I don’t really feel that that’s right for me. And being able to stand on your own two feet and not make anyone else wrong but just honor that place within you that feels that way.

Alison Martin: Exactly. Jean. Jill, are you a channeler or are you a psychic? Are you all those things? Do you even put a label on things?

Jill Renee Feeler: I do what channelers do. I have always felt it as it’s a wider range of me as source that I’m connecting with. So to me it didn’t feel like an entity or an energy field that was separate from me. It felt like an extension of me. So I understand that that’s a bit unique compared to how some popular channelers do it.

Alison Martin: Yes, because I think sometimes at least some people that I’ve read about or that we’ve interviewed, it’s almost like it has it could have a name or be outside. I don’t think they think it’s outside, but it feels like a name and almost like a different. So I love that you’re saying that it is an extension. Do you do you think everybody or everyone could do this?

Jill Renee Feeler: No, sadly, I really wanted that to be true. Because it’s clear how many people want to be able to feel as masterful about some of the strengths and abilities that I have demonstrated mastery in. But it’s clear to me that, well, guess one evidentiary way of looking at it is if more people had strength in it, they wouldn’t be studying for years and years trying to acquire these gifts. It would just be there. So I think there are some people that just have a natural voice, right? They’re just a natural vocalist. And then there are other people that are still working with vocal coaches. 20 years on, still not confident enough to sing, even in a church choir, right? So just kind of look at it like that. To me, it’s not better than or more evolved than I don’t put this on a spiritual evolutionary path, linear path at all. And I’m, I don’t want to say frustrated, really disappointed that so many people do because just because they may not have a propensity for some of these strengths does not mean they’re any less evolved as soul, as spirit or as they’re human.

Alison Martin: Right. I love that because I think sometimes you read a lot of websites that say anyone can do this, just tap in, you know, anyone. You’re kind of like, no. For instance, I can’t sing. I have friends that can sing beautifully and there it is, you know?

Jill Renee Feeler: And you probably, to continue this analogy, you probably don’t feel less than whole and complete because you don’t sing. And yet in spiritual communities and in consciousness communities and self-help communities, that is such an issue. There are so many people that, in my opinion, give channelers or healers or readers way too much credit in terms of, Oh, well, they can do that, so they must be further along, they must have be closer to God. They must. There’s a lot of assumptions that are baked into that, to the disadvantage of the sovereignty of that individual. And to me, that’s a really big disadvantage.

Alison Martin: It’s like a specialness that you think we’re all special, but we all have different gifts.

Speaker4: Yeah, there.

Jill Renee Feeler: Yes, I remember teaching a class. It was in San Francisco a long time ago, um, probably ten years ago. And this…we’re still friends today… and she said, Well, Jill, we can’t all be special. And I remember just saying, why not? Not special doesn’t have to mean less than 100% of the population, but special implies value. Oh, I want everyone to feel special. Right?

Jean Trebek: There’s this great quote that I don’t know who said it, but we’re either all special or no one’s special. Not all of us can be special, right?

Jill Renee Feeler: But I get that the human brain is so regularly, um, placing someone else ahead of themselves. There’s such an emphasis, and it’s that whole grass is always greener, right? So, part of my strength is the ability to see where the brain is deceiving the individual, the client at their disadvantage, right? And holding them back from trusting themselves, from being curious, from expansion, from exploration of more than they are.

Alison Martin: Right. And I like on your website where you say you’ve done this forever and not not been healed…So I love that, that you’re just very, very honest. And, you know, you remind me of my niece, who’s a kindergarten teacher and all the kids in the classes that she has. From the quirkiest to the quietest to the loudest, you’ll say, Hey, what’s that kid’s name? And she’ll tell you and she’ll say, Well, the great thing about them and it feels like to her, everybody’s special. Like there’s no level of – that kid’s a little too loud or that kid’s a little too quiet. And I love that you’re saying that.

Jill Renee Feeler: My favorite people do that. My favorite people make everybody feel special, not out of a trick or a con. It’s because they actually experience them that way. Right. I think that Jesus was that way. I feel like source energy in its purest essence is that way.

Jill Renee Feeler: It’s hard here. Right? So for anyone to help you feel like you are unique, like you have inherent value. I love that. And when that’s easy and I do feel like it is easy for some of us to give ourselves permission to do our part in offering that experience to other people, that we see them that way, to possibly help them feel that way more themselves if they do need some support in that area, you know, like everybody wins, those humans with insecurities end up being harmful to themselves and to others, whether it’s intentional or not, insecurities breed a lot of different kind of subversive thoughts. Subversive energies, subversive actions.

Jean Trebek: You have some amazing classes offered on your website. And I’ve taken, I think, a couple of them. Is there there anything you can share that you were like, oh my goodness, I never thought of of this reality that way?

Jill Renee Feeler: There are so many, Jean. Let me try and pick some of my favorites. Um, one that’s coming up right here is this idea that there are energies that incarnate without the intention of growth, without the intention of acquiring further consciousness or further evolution or expansion. There are actually energies that incarnate in this reality just to see what will happen without a growth or even positive objective. So that to me is very important for individuals in a beautiful community like yours to be aware of because it helps explain more of the people that we tend to come across in society… It’s not that they’re aimless, it doesn’t have to mean negativity. It just means they’re not as purposeful in – what are you doing to work better on yourself? What are you doing to make the world a better place? Right? They’re just kind of like, Why are you working so hard? It’s kind of how they look at people like us. Like, wow, you could just be chilling here, you know? Right. And that conveys nothing about the knowledge and wisdom and breadth and depth of their soulfulness, the fact that in this incarnation that we may be encountering, they may seem like they’re literally like a college kid on vacation perpetually and may never go back to class.

Jill Renee Feeler: So that’s one thing that was a big aha for me. Another one that comes up is that as incarnated energy, we can be more than one soul. We can be sort of a pantry full of accessible source energy that we may or may not pull from all those items on the pantry. I don’t know how many of us are like that, but…What if it is a huge number? But what if it’s everybody? And especially in a community like yours, what if almost everybody in this community actually has access to everything that Jesus was? And what if that doesn’t offend Jesus? What if that makes Jesus excited? That you could be what I was and more. You could be what I was. Well, to me, Metatron is an incarnate energy. But some people may disagree with that. But let’s pick Quan Yin. You could be everything that Leonardo da Vinci was and more. There’s such a limitlessness in that whole idea. So that came through for me when I heard somebody say that they were the reincarnation of I think it was like Edgar Casey. And immediately my inner knowing was, Well, that’s not true. I mean, they don’t own Edgar Casey. You know?

Alison Martin: Right.

Jill Renee Feeler: And it’s just kind of like, how does that work then? And then I realized there’s like this funnel sort of energies that we can be. And it’s in that original composition of each of us, where we get to kind of play with a lot of sort of known beings and non known non-named sort of energies. Um, and that it’s a nice kind of collaborative effect.

Jill Renee Feeler: And…No one had to incarnate. No, no energies had to incarnate. There’s growth and contentment, there’s satisfaction far beyond this reality and far beyond any incarnation. So no one had to incarnate and therefore no one has to reincarnate. And that one was a still a mind blower for me because it’s so counter to what the vast majority of spiritual practitioners are involved in.

Alison Martin: So. So can you expand on that a little bit for me? So.. Do you think there is a “someone”? First off, do you know what I mean?

Jill Renee Feeler: Yeah, I do. I prefer to consider that “the all that is” as source energy is beyond space and time. Right? So it’s, it’s almost like it’s beyond one in a way has a delineation to it in my heart and in my conception of it. So to me “one” even has a space time kind of component to it. Um, but I do believe in, if you will, a higher power, a benevolence that is all energy and that that often doesn’t show up that way, doesn’t look that way in this reality.

Alison Martin: And that we are all a part of that love and benevolence.

Jill Renee Feeler: You can’t not be a part of that love

Alison Martin: Because it’s all that is.

Jill Renee Feeler: Yeah.

Alison Martin: And so do you think yeah. You know, we have a group of women that meet and talk about this sort of stuff, which is really interesting. And we’re reading a book on physics and consciousness right now. And it’s so interesting because it talks about exactly what you’re saying that there is just this creative, constantly creative, as you said, benevolent force that is us, that we’re just like, you know, like one facet of the diamond. So I love that you say he does not own Edgar Casey, because I have heard so many people in groups say, you know, I was Cleopatra and I was King Arthur. You know, I was I was the guy with the horse.

Jill Renee Feeler: Maybe Cleopatra gets around.

Alison Martin: That is so true.

Jill Renee Feeler: Bless her. Bless her.

Alison Martin: She’s all over the place. You can’t keep her down. Yeah. That’s so funny. What do you do in your courses? Do you give readings? Do you help people? What do you do?

Jill Renee Feeler: The courses. And there’s so many at this point because there were so many different sort of nudges that I felt to share sometimes not not being exactly sure what was going to come through, but just setting a space for it and putting a name on it and an overall objective and just see what happens. So there’s well over 30. There might even be more than 50 courses that are on the website and some I’ve already made free just on like a podcast A podcast used to be literally my top selling course and think it was June of 2022. I was just led to give it away for free.

Alison Martin: So beautiful.

Jill Renee Feeler: Thank you. Um, but I’m not really a how-to kind of person, and I’ve noticed that from a business standpoint that doesn’t serve me well because how-to classes are very, very popular. How to clear your energy field, how to activate your Kundalini, how to activate your 29th strand DNA or whatever that is. So how to classes are very clear and I know why because I get it. Why people sell them and I get it. Why people buy them. Because from the brain it’s like, I know what that is. And yes, I do want to know how to do that. And yes, I’ll do the course. Right? So mine are a bit maybe harder to understand, but I have found consistently that individuals that participate in my course work, they are regularly expanded far beyond any of the Library of How-To classes they’ve accumulated over the sometimes the decades of work that they’ve been doing. So they come away with a different state of self, which allows all of that how-to to have more room to sit. Because it’s clear to me that with some of the people that are newer to my work, when I ask them like how many, how many How-To classes have you done? And they’re like, I can’t even count. And I’m like, Well, how are you doing? And how those how-tos and their brains still isn’t giving them permission because their brain is still not rooted in a sense of self that already is source energy.

Jean Trebek: That is it. You know, That’s it. And, um, Jill, did you have a knowingness about your godliness, as you you call it, your soulfulness. Were you like in the market one day and holding a, you know, holding a broccoli head and I Am one with the Broccoli? What was your experience of… If you don’t mind…. Because I also know that you can’t get it through the brain… It’s beyond your human structure to actually become aware of the godliness you are. And most of us do operate and move through our world with just an intellectual… But I feel for you- you are deeper. Somehow your soul was either ready in this lifetime or whatever it was to awaken to more godliness. And that is what you’re sharing. Because my take away from you, Jill, has always been my sovereignty as a soul. I think that is what you’re always eliciting to everyone. Is that – you are God incarnate. Don’t sell yourself short. You know, you are that. We are that that we’re looking for. Right. Going back to you, Jill, did you you know what took it deeper for you?

Jill Renee Feeler: I do feel like it was part of the way I designed myself, and that has always been a theme of my work is in everything that I’m doing as that wider sense of myself that I often refer to in the in the sense of we, what we are always working for and towards is helping remind humanity what they are, which is source energy. You can’t not be source energy. Right. And I, I, I’m well aware and I’m very able to articulate how the brain gets that twisted, gets that confused, says, No, no, that can’t be right because. Or no, what about or let’s see, I can’t process that. So let’s just continue on this litany of how to kind of pathways. Um, I think if I really look back on it, I never had an existential crisis. I feel like there always was a part of me that just knew and didn’t have a reason to doubt it, didn’t have a reason to question it, but also didn’t really have an impetus to embody it or share it or inspire it within others and tell that sort of like a flip switch or like a, you know, a light in the closet that, Oh yeah, there is a light in this pantry. I forgot that that was there.

Jill Renee Feeler: That’ll make it a lot easier to see. And then you click it on and you’re like, Oh, wow, this is fun. This is different, right? But up until that, you know, so for 0 to 38 years, um, I can be very…Confident in spirit…Can be very disconcertingly clear if that comes across. I remember being as an adult, I read like 98% of the Bible in like eight months. A friend of mine invited me into this Bible study. We were just each individually kind of parallel doing a Bible study. And I kind of tend to go all in when I do certain things, not in a way that’s neglectful of other parts of my life, but just have the capacity to go really deep in certain things. And that was one. And I just remember being like, Oh, well, yeah. And this woman who invited me into this Bible study, (my youngest was probably one at the time, so that would have been 2003). She was saying something. She was still carrying around this thought of her savior story of how Jesus saved her and how she still has this sin. And I just remember looking at her and I’m only, you know, new to this in some ways. And I said, Well, I thought he died for that. Like, what are you doing? Right? And she wanted to be the the mentor.And I was supposed to be the mentee. And yet I was really calling BS on her storyline that she was at odds with the entire New Testament that she was believing in. And since then, I have a different appreciation for what Jesus really was about, what He was really here for, and what his life really meant and what it still means today. Um, and it is about dying. It isn’t about dying for sins and things like that. But I appreciate the that the Christian faith, that’s their story and they’re sticking to it. And it’s too risky for them to stay away from the Bible. So in so many ways, in my opinion, they’re worshiping the Bible and not worshiping God, but they’re very rigid. And I get why. Anyway, um, so my ability to be super clear about what feels right to me and why and being able to defend it in a way and it, it can be uncomfortable for some people that want it to just be more like, no, I want you to support what I believe. And I’m like, No, I support your ability to believe what you believe, but I’m not going to help you defend your beliefs if I think that they’re not serving you and the Godness that you are. I can be very opinionated about this, as Jean knows.

Alison Martin: I love it. You would have been a good CEO, too.

Jill Renee Feeler: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alison Martin: So can you tell me what do you. You said your thought of Jesus has evolved. Where are you with that now? I’m so interested in hearing that.

Jill Renee Feeler: Oh, I’ve done some really. Those are some of my favorite series where Jesus comes through as the brother, as the best friend, as the one who wants to be the biggest champion of humanity. All of humans. Right? All of humanity, past, present and future. And that he did sacrifice a lot for the journey that he had. He knew it would be controversial. He knew he could be killed for it. He ended up being killed for it. But it wasn’t why he lived. It wasn’t why he was here. He was here because he had something very important to God to say to humans. He did that in a fire and brimstone Old Testament sort of way in a lot of expressions of him. And yet he was so devoted and so likable and yet unlikable at the same time. So this kind of rose colored glasses view of him that he was only, you know, the soft kind, you know, gentle one with the lamb and the children sort of thing. He was very intimidating and he did have a temper. And his temper was not pretty. Right. So my evolved sense of him is that he’s far more accessible today. I know Jesus so much better now than I ever did as a devout Christian. And I don’t say that with contempt for Christianity. I say that with hurt in my heart that those that claim to defend him don’t even know him personally, except through a supposed book that was supposedly blessed by these individuals that supposedly knew him and supposedly spoke for him.

Jill Renee Feeler: It’s it’s just heartbreaking in a way that they don’t have more than what we all deserve in terms of that sense of. We are so loved beyond measure. There’s nothing that we could do that would cast us out of God’s grace and God’s love. And to me, that’s what His life is about. But you wouldn’t know it by a lot of the modern day interpretation of Christianity. And just I feel like he is frustrated by that. I feel like it’s just like, Oh, seriously? You know what I mean? Like, he’s like, Oh, you know what I mean? Yeah. So I love the humor that comes through when I’m when I’m allowing that layer of, of us to come through. Um, and I love how. Yeah, he’s very humorous, very, um, charming, very welcoming. And so. So, yeah, I don’t know if I can explain it better than that, but Jean, one of the, my favorite series that I know you and I were both a part of is the Mary Magdalene series, where Mary and Jesus were both coming through with such… You could just feel their love for each other. You could feel their love for us. And it does. It resets our rhythm in a way that is so calming and so affirming. It’s so connecting.

Jean Trebek: Yeah, I remember. Jill. You brought through Mother Mary. And my big takeaway from that was when she says, you know, it’s been told that you can’t love another truly without loving yourself. And she was like – I’m not I’m not all on board with that saying. You can absolutely love another and still struggle with your own self-acceptance. And I remember when I heard that, I thought, oh, that is so beautiful and liberating because there are times that I don’t love myself. And yet I go, oh, you know, I’ll doubt – well then can I love Alison or love Matthew my children or… And when she said that I thought that rings true for me now.

Jill Renee Feeler: That was huge And thank you so much for remembering that, Jean, and for offering it in this context that that one is still. That’s such a big one. I completely agree.

Alison Martin: I think it’s amazing that because I totally agree with you. I totally agree that like, I get the sense sometimes that people oddly forget that Jesus like was walking around. He was an incredibly dynamic person. But he was a person. Like, it wasn’t like, you know, like a UFO landed and, you know, and that’s the thing. I think God and spirit and energy wants to have all these experiences, wants to live and flourish. And I think that’s why people say- Why is it so? I don’t believe in God. Because there wouldn’t be anything bad going on if there was a God. And, you know, like, do you have a thought about that? Because I know what I think. But I would love, you know, that they say, well, how could a God do X if there was a God? How could X be happening? What do you what do you think about that?

Jill Renee Feeler: Thank you so much for asking that question because it is questions like that that an atheist or agnostic would would ask or their regular kind of counter moves, like in chess of theology or even philosophy that I actually love the most, because it’s sometimes those questions that I haven’t struggled with or I haven’t even thought about, and these answers just pop out from within that are just like, Oh, that’s a good answer. And to watch somebody be satisfied for the first time and maybe five decades of that being their best, their best checkmate. And you’re like, Actually, I have an answer for you to consider, right? And it’s not that answer, but I love to offer my answer. And if it fits for them and if it’s useful to them, wonderful. And if it’s not, that’s okay. Right? So my answer to that, and I’ll try and describe it as best I can, I think I’ve taught entire classes. I’ve probably talked for two hours on just that. Um, but if I were to summarize. Source energy was curious. Source energy is curious. And that implies, if you will, not all knowing that there are things that source energy is comfortable – I wonder what would happen if. Not knowing what would happen. And this reality, literally all of space and time version of this reality, was created within the context of “I wonder what would happen if I didn’t feel like me and if there were individuations of source energy”. And there was different knowings and different not knowings. And different strengths and different weaknesses. And what if it was created in the context of not even knowing what you are as source energy? What if there was a place where we didn’t know we are source? And we didn’t know what would happen. We as source designed it in love and positive intentions. And what we found out was that in the midst of this…  I don’t want to say “experiment” like we’re lab rats because we are the creator and the creation and we’re creating. Right? So we’re we’re both at the same time, but we’re in the experiment of space and time going, Oh, wow, guess we didn’t think about the fact or we didn’t predict that when Source Energy has created an individuation a self to be and it doesn’t know its source and therefore it doesn’t maybe know unconditional love in its incarnation, it can do awful, horrible things that don’t look godly at all. Right? And then we’re all like, oh. Yikes. Like that hurts. That hurt them. That hurt this person. That hurt me. That hurt someone I love. This is dangerous here, right? So an incarnation on Earth comes with a huge warning label, right? Is Look, I know you’re really, you know, excited about this incarnation. You’ve designed this you that you get to be, and you’re really excited you’re going to go on vacation, it looks like, because you don’t really have a lot of goals. Okay? You don’t even want to learn, like, more than one language. Okay, that’s good. That should be easy. But just be careful down there because you never know what’s going to happen. Even Source Energy doesn’t know what will happen. This reality is risky. So for me, the risk mitigator is that as our source energy, we’re always intact. We’re un-harmable as our source energy. And we would have never designed it any other way. Right. Right. So. There’s a lot of ways to explain that. But that to me is sort of the explanation I like best, is that this isn’t when something horrible happens in this reality, to me it is not God energy saying, Well, you had that coming to you.

Alison Martin: Yeah, you blew it.

Jill Renee Feeler: That’s karma. You deserve that. Or you did that in another lifetime. So that having to happen to you here, there’s all these rationalizations that different theologians and philosophers and practitioners, spiritual teachers have come up with. And to me, when I hear those explanations, I’m like, I disagree. It to me that’s not true. And here’s why. It doesn’t even make sense to me why that would be true. But I get it that it’s sort of a when I tell people like I don’t believe in karma, they’re like. I don’t understand. What do you believe? If you don’t believe in karma, I believe this s-h-i-t. I don’t know if you guys swear on this Podcast. Shit happens for no reason with no warning, with no causation. It just happens, right? Without logic or reason. So when shit happens to me, the last thing I do is, Well, what’s going on here? What’s the message? What’s the sign? What does this mean? What is this shadow? What is the… I’m not looking for meaning in every little thing in this reality because so much of that happens in this reality and that’s offered in this reality and that we experience in this reality had no meaning.

Jill Renee Feeler: And to me, when people doubt that, I’m like, okay, think if somebody follows you around with a camera today, think of how many things you did without intention, without specific meaning. Can you imagine ten people on a panel decoding every single thing you did as if it had meaning, right? Well, she’s brushing with her right hand again. So clearly her left hand does not brush her teeth because she never uses her left hand. So there we go again. You know what I mean? It would just be it would be ridiculous. We would be laughing at the implication of meaning in every little thing. So the idea that there’s this grander application that, well, maybe not everything we do has meaning, but certainly everything in the universe has meaning. I’m just like, Wow, that’s very, very…That has a lot of problems with it, right? So this became more clear to me the more I was doing client work. And I was so heartbroken by the clients that had cancer for the second or third time, and they’re just like. I need to know what the lesson is. Because clearly I’ve done something wrong again. Because I have cancer…for The third effing time. Yeah. What am I missing? And I’m like, Oh, okay, you’re personalizing this. That you had this coming to you, that this was somehow a contract that you made, that you can avoid getting cancer by having learned certain lessons, by living in a certain way. And then I just pause as I reflect and connect with their, if you will, elements of Source Energy. What do you want me to tell this beautiful being that is blaming herself again for something that she happened to get from a gene mutation, a genetic mutation cell, a mutated cell that just is able to proliferate, which is what cancer is. Right. She’s making it about her. So then I just pause and I let the source energy use, you know, work with my Jill to offer what they want her to know, which normally comes across something as what if this is just a horrible thing? That you never deserved. That you don’t deserve that. We’re sad about, too. And the grace. Then there’s room for God’s grace, right? And then the brain goes, Well, I hate that answer, but actually love that answer. And then they can use all of their energy field to doing what they can to beat it this time, to get better, to be loving of themselves and loving of other people and stop continually adding to the punishment that the cancer is already offering them. Right. And just let it be another effed up thing that can happen in this reality that is not personal.

Alison Martin: You know, I feel like jumping through this screen – Jean would know this – and hugging you because that has been my real pet peeve of mine when I’ve heard “sick mind, sick body”. And I go, I just don’t believe that. I believe, like, as you said, shit happens and then you have to lean in to love and not blame. And I’ve done something wrong. And I can’t believe you just said that so clearly you gave me chills. And it’s exactly, exactly what I what I’ve always thought. And you really just validated it for me. So thank you so much.

Jill Renee Feeler: You’re so welcome. Love to put into words or to try to put into words some of these very important things. Humans deserve really good answers to these things anI don’t like a lot of the answers that apparently I’ve been given in all these beautifully intended, designed disciplines and philosophies and religions. I love that there was attempts to provide important answers to these things. I just don’t like a lot of the answers that were given, and I’m not mad at anybody about it. I just wanted more items on the menu. I wanted more answers to be on the menu so that people have better choices.

Jill Renee Feeler: I don’t I don’t care what people choose. I really respect the sovereignty of each individual. But when I look at a menu of options to answer those important questions and I’m like, I don’t think any of those are going to help somebody feel closer to the God energy they are. And its love and its grace and its compassion and its originality and its gloriousness, right? So that’s my goal. That that’s a great menu item is one that does all of those things. Because when an individual is acting more as the gloriousness of God that they are, everybody wins…everybody wins. And that is not about perfectionism. That is not about idealism. And my brain had a hard time with that because my brain was like, well, how how are you? How how is it possible that I do have gifts and this, this and this, and I’m still not great at that, that and that, right?

Jill Renee Feeler: And I’m like, I don’t know, I don’t know. But it just is. So my view was able to give myself the grace and compassion that I’m not pretending to be perfect in A to Z, but I know what I’m really, really good at and I’m okay that I’m not great at everything. I’m not trying to be great at everything. And I feel like that’s another liberating kind of idea within spirituality and consciousness that I wish more people knew about. Even impatience. I remember being hard on myself because I was impatient and finally that what I call my team, that source energy range of myself was like, Well, if you were patient, you probably wouldn’t be as impulsive about just spitting out ideas of wisdom that just come to you from nowhere within yourself, right? If you were patient, you probably wouldn’t be sharing. You probably wouldn’t have all the classes you have. You probably wouldn’t have had the three books. You probably would have never started your YouTube channel in 2009. Right? So your impatience is serving you well. You have a lot to say and your impatience helps you get to really good stuff before a patient version of you would have ever gotten to. Right? Is it messy in ways? Is it maybe. Could I have said it better? Could I be doing more books and that kind of thing? Yeah, 100%.

Alison Martin: Yeah. Yeah. I applaud you. I applaud you, Jill.

Jill Renee Feeler: Yeah, it’s a system that works. I know that.

Alison Martin: It’s great. You’re wonderful.

Jean Trebek: We’re so blessed that you said yes to our podcast. Jill, you’re. You’re just. Amazing. And I love you. And. What what what would be your answer to this question? Cake, pie or ice cream? What’s your favorite?

Jill Renee Feeler: Oh, that’s such a hard question. You made this really hard. I think pie. I’m a big pie person. I do love ice cream, but normally I don’t have ice cream, just plain. And my husband teases me about this all the time because you’ll never find me with just a bowl of, like, vanilla ice cream. It has to have something in it, right? Chips or something. Sprinkles, even something. Some texture to go with the rest of it. So pie always has that diversity of texture, which I really like.

Speaker4: I love that.

Jill Renee Feeler: I love that I’m really analyzing this. I’m like, Well, you got the crust. You normally have more than one feeling in it, even if it’s chocolate cream pie because it’s got the cream on top and chocolatey pudding-ish part.

Alison Martin: That. I love that. You’re like, Oh, I can answer about Mary Magdalene. I can answer about the state of the world. But pie, cake or ice cream. You stumped me.

Jill Renee Feeler: Yeah. Pie.

Alison Martin: I love that. Great. So wonderful to talk to you. Thank you so much.

Jill Renee Feeler: Oh, you guys. Thank you. So and just blessings to everything that you’re doing. Jean, I hope I get to see you again soon. I missed you so much. That’s. I just really treasure our times together. And Alison, I hope, get to meet you in person at some point. I would love that.

Alison Martin: I would love that. Thank you so much, Jill.

Jill Renee Feeler: Thank you so much, you guys.

Alison Martin: Okay. I enjoyed her so much because she’s unwavering. She has an idea and a thought and a belief. And she says it even if it’s not mainstream, you know. She’s like a spiritual CEO.

Jean Trebek: Oh, I love that you.

Alison Martin: Here’s what I think. And, you know, I want to hear what you think.

Jean Trebek: I want to hear what you think as well. And not my way is the only right way. But here’s something I offer you to kind of open up your… there could be another way to think about this. And whatever feels right to you is is awesome.

Alison Martin: Right? I think what you just said makes me realize I like it when people give me a new thought that makes me reconsider what I had been thinking. Because then I realize there were a lot of options to getting closer to my God self, to my higher power, to nature. There’s a lot of options open, right? That’s what I really liked…some of her thoughts I really hadn’t heard.

Jean Trebek: Right. And how much courage that takes to just speak your truth and I’m sure Jill at times has felt a little- if I rock the boat, so be it. And, you know, to thine own self be true. But she’s just wonderful. And I also love that she is a practicing real estate agent. And she also has this amazing gift of channeling. And also she does private sessions. She’s just an all around balanced, beautiful inside and out woman.

Alison Martin: I see why you like her, because you have a very similar thing. And yet you guys compliment each other. Well, you know?

Jean Trebek: She was the one I went on on the Egypt trip. Yeah.

Alison Martin: That must have been fabulous, right?

Jean Trebek: We were so blessed to have her.

Alison Martin: You were on the Nile.

Jean Trebek: I was on the Nile with Jill and my son Matthew and a whole host of other wonderful people.

Alison Martin: I have not been on the Nile.

Jean Trebek: Okay, well.

Alison Martin: I’ve been on the Harlem River when I was younger. That’s about it. Well, I thank you so much for listening. And that’s it. I just want to give another shout out to little Bud.

Jean Trebek: Yes, Buddy, Buddy.

Alison Martin: Okay. All right. Have a good day.

Jean Trebek: Bye bye.