Jean: I’m so excited to to talk to George today.

Alison: I know he’s he is so… Okay, so tell everybody who we’re talking to.

Jean: Okay,we are talking to a famous musical composer, concert pianist.. His name is George Tomb.

Alison: right, and he has scored, like 15 films. And he’s very young. He’s like 30, 31. Right. And our wonderful friend Brad Koepenick introduced us to him. And just listening to his music, there’s one piece that he did and he writes a lot for like, causes, like philanthropic causes, this thing called Memorial Bow and oh my gosh, this piece, I got all teary eyed, I don’t know, it was so moving. Right

Jean: I thought his music was it was very healing for me. And as I was sharing with you before, Allison, just taking that time to listen to a piece of beautiful music, non-verbal music, it I don’t do that a lot, actually. Ever. It’s always music with words. And unless I go to a concert or something like that. But in preparing for our interview, I sat down and I listened to this man’s music, andT i felt euphoric and really, I felt in my body and I felt great.

Alison: He’s  beautiful. So if you have a chance before, even during or after, if you can, you know, YouTube, Georges Tomb and it’s – Georges Tomb and listen to some of his work.

Jean: He is going to be an infamous,

Alison: Uh, famous.

Jean: Infamous/ famous musician.  Across the board. I mean, and he’s he’s just as as creative and genius as he is with his music. He has such a beautiful heart.

Alison: Yeah, well, here he is.

Alison: Hi.

Georges: Hello..How are you?

Alison: I’m good. Thank you so much.

Georges: Thank you for your time. Um, I’m honored to be with you on the show.

Jean: This is such a treat to have you. You are an exceptionally gifted and creative human. And, um, thank you so much for joining us.

Georges: Thank you so much for hosting me.

Alison: I’m Alison.

Jean: And I’m Jean. And can you tell me where are you zooming in from and how do you pronounce your name?

Georges: Yeah, I’m zooming from Paris now, and my name is George Tomb.

Jean: Okay, great, because we heard a few different ways.

Alison: You are so incredible. And you’re from a musical family. And you, you give your father a lot of credit. Did you, when you were young, was he annoying or was it still…. Did you still, like, love it?

Georges: Actually, I was the one annoying when I was a kid because, you know, I was 3 or 4 years old and I was very intrigued by how he’s working, how he’s writing music. And I was seeing him writing music for my auntie. She’s a singer, very famous singer, and I wanted to learn, you know what I mean? I was like 3 or 4 years and I, I was pushing, pushing him, just that teach me something, you know? And he started teaching me how to write music and play piano and play famous French songs, American songs… He’s a big fan of Elton John and Dalida and all those, you know, old, old French songs. So I actually I was the annoying kid that wanted to prove my dad that I’m maybe more talented than you, just give me a chance. You know what I mean?

Alison: And  now what do you think he’s thinking?

Georges: I think he’s proud of what he did. I mean, I can I give him a big credit to him and to my mother. She is not a musician, but at least she was the one who had the nerves to and the patience to sit next to me for hours every day on the piano.

Alison: Wow.

Georges: And to just practice. Yeah. That was the part where piano wasn’t really cool because, you know, practicing for 4 or 5 hours, it’s the same things all over again. It’s just, you know, as a as a basketball player, he needs to train every day in order to keep this trend, and that’s practicing every day to keep the nerves of the and the technique of, uh, you know, your fingers on the piano. So I used to do that for five hours every day.

Alison: Wow.

Georges: So I give credit to both of my parents.

Alison: Yes. That’s so sweet. I want my son to hear this so that when he’s 31, he will say the same thing.

Georges: Yeah. How old is he?

Alison: He’s 24.

Georges: Ah.

Alison: Yeah. Yeah. I have seven years to drill it into him, I think. You know. hahah

Georges: You have time. It’s never too late.

Jean: Yeah. Yeah. George, I’m a little bit curious about your creative process and the inspiration  to bring forth this exquisite music. Uh, I enjoyed so many of your scores, listening to your piano playing your– the movie themes that you’ve scored. And can you talk a little bit about your creative process? And do you get like a knowing that something’s coming through you? And when do you feel the most inspired to to do your music writing?

Georges: That’s a nice question. So usually when I’m hired to do a score for a movie, I meet the writer first, and then after the writer, I meet the director. It’s always more important for me to meet the writer because he created the story. I need to feel his emotions, you know? And I need to see how am I gonna, um, portray these emotions in music, right? And I have to feel the story. I have to feel involved in the story. You know? I have to feel I am in the story to just live the story. Imagine I’m an actor, right? And if I’m hired to do the main role of the movie, he has to live the story, right? And I have to do the same thing on paper. That’s the only difference that I am the emotion of the movie, music for me is the emotion of the movie. This is what makes the movie alive. This is what gives breath to the movie. Imagine watching big movies, big scores without music… You wouldn’t feel the emotions. You wouldn’t feel sadness, happiness. Uh, you know, um, all kind of emotion. So I think for me as a composer, to succeed in my, uh, target in a project, I have to understand the story. I have to feel involved. Because if I don’t feel involved, which I rejected many projects, not because I didn’t respect the story, but I didn’t feel involved.

Georges: That’s it. You know what I mean? So I have to feel involved as a human being, as a man, as a as someone who appreciates beauty, as someone who sees, uh, hope in a mother and a wife and a. You know what I mean? The love. I have to feel all this. I have to be the lover. I have to be the father. I have to be even, i have to feel the mother in a movie. It’s it’s not easy. As people, you tend to underestimate the value of music, but I think they know more the value of music if they choose to watch any of their favorite movies without music, it would be a different thing, you know? So I think me understanding the story, the script of a movie, or now I’m writing the music of the show or ballet, i have to live the story and feel it in order for me to create and be inspired. And of course, life events that are happening in my daily life would also inspire me. Relationships, family, relationships, problems, clashes with people. All these different emotions help me to to be inspired to write music.

Alison: That’s beautiful…When we were listening to, Memorial Bow, that is– I got all teary eyed and I couldn’t, I didn’t, I couldn’t quite pinpoint why? Why do you think music like makes makes us cry? Or like what– how does it how do you think it touches us? Because I was like, crying…. And it was well, actually, I loved it. I loved it, you know? But it was so memorial.

Georges: Memorial Bow,  it wasn’t an easy piece to write. And I think it’s one of my favorite because, you have you have to show this piece has literally all kinds of emotions, like sadness. Uh, victory, right? I mean, it talks about all those amazing men that dedicated their lives for the United States. And me, not being American, wasn’t an easy task for me. But maybe coming from a country that had, uh, also war and, uh, and hardships and stuff, and also me living in many countries, countrie’s peace,  right? It wasn’t easy for me. So I decided to pick one theme that is very repetitive, and this theme should have many, uh, orchestral foundation. And that’s if you focus on Memorial Bow. It has the beginning and then the hopeful part in the middle. And it ends in a grandiose way that, you know, that shows how America is a great nation, you know what I mean? And it has always stood for what’s right. And I hope I mean, we see America standing for what’s right and better stages where we see no war, we see human, you know, we see humanity coming back to the world. That’s how I saw this piece coming, coming to life. And I hope we get a Grammy nomination on it. It’s in ten days. Let’s see.

Alison:  yeah.

Jean: It is beautiful. And and speaking about the United States, George, which, um, so you’ve played obviously in Los Angeles and you’ve played in Carnegie Hall in New York. Do you have a favorite place in the United States and how do you feel about it?

Georges: I think Carnegie Hall. Carnegie Hall’s feeling was was different. Yeah, Seriously. Like I mean, every concert has a special feeling, but Carnegie Hall was, you know, this lady crush that a man had for many years and in one second, you know, it… This was this was like Carnegie Hall was a dream. And I thank the conductor Joanna Nachef, for believing in my music. And she commissioned me this piece and she believed in my music. Um, but I feel, um, I mean, what I love about the United States that they, they believed in, I mean, I traveled the world, but the U.S. gave me a chance, you know, and they gave me the chance to to share my music with the world. And that’s what for me, what makes the American dream, right? and, um. Yeah, and Carnegie Hall was a big breakthrough in my career, I feel.

Alison: And I’ve heard you say that music for you sometimes comes, like, divinely inspired and I’m wondering, do you feel then that  it really is your spiritual journey to be a musician? Like, do you have any sense of any sense of that? Because I thought that was so beautiful that you felt it was divinely inspired.

Georges: Honestly, I feel that way because I’ve always had music in my ears since I was a little boy. Right? And I never truly explained how these melodies come to me. You know, I never really explained it. I just feel it. Like now I’m sitting here, I can be talking to you and there’s a melody playing in my ears. Music never leaves me. Never. And it can be annoying sometimes, you know? But, I mean, It’s just, I don’t know.. I think it’s just maybe…. I’m not sure– it’s. maybe it’s genetics, of course… But also music has always been in me. Always.

Alison: I love that. Did you start did you start playing piano at three?

Georges: Yeah.  I have a picture actually of me playing the piano at the age of 1 or 2. I can send you the picture. It’s cute. I mean, yeah, piano was always….  I had this this feeling of I had a good relationship with this instrument, you know, and I yeah, it’s like I was exploding all all my emotions and my anger. I was an angry kid, I still am. I’m an angry person, I feel, or I, um, um, I had nerves, you know what I mean? And the piano was for me like an explosion of of all kind of emotions in me. I don’t know, I loved it. Yeah. Since day one. Yeah. And now it’s like my my oxygen. I cannot skip a day without. I mean, at least playing the piano at least once or twice.

Jean: That’s so beautiful. I love that this this passion within you has.. Is moves out, and we’re all so blessed by by your music. And and I felt-.

Georges: I’m honored.

Alison: Really.

Jean: Truly. Like I, I was listening so much to your– getting ready for our interview and listening to your music, and, um, I had chills. And I also feel it, it was very deeply healing for my, my psyche to sit back, close my eyes and, and take in your music. Uh, and I gave myself the time to really be… And I don’t do that anymore, George. Like I, unless I go to a concert, I don’t… Like, my life has gotten busy and I’m, you know, it was a real gift to just sit back and listen to your music last night.

Georges: I’m humbled to hear that. Thank you so much. This gives me, um, a motivation to keep going and I mean improve my music to inspire more people.

Jean: I don’t think you can improve.

Alison: Right.

Jean: At all. I think I think you hit the bull’s eye every time, George.

Alison: When you say that you felt like you were an angry kid or that you’re an angry person, you present the opposite. You present, like, so generous of heart. And your music is very moving. So how do you reconcile that?

Georges: I think God gave me music to just do a balance with my with my personality since being a kid that is, you know, crazy and, Uh, I mean, I just wanted… When I wanted things to happen, I wanted things to happen. I had no negotiation with my with my parents. My parents had a tough time raising me as a kid because I was, we say in French, capricious, capricious. Right?

Alison: Yeah, right.

Georges: Yeah. And I, I mean, it’s their problem because they made me believe that…. I mean, they made me believe that I’m, I don’t know, I’m a talented musician. And they planted this, these ideas in my head. And I believed it since at the very early age. And I feel the role of parents in general is very important at younger age, even if someone is not talented and the mother makes a kid believe that he’s super talented, it affects directly to his to his ability to create, to to, to do something, you know what I mean? And I feel this confidence that my family gave me, made me, made me believe in myself, even made me manifest things that I would never imagine that would happen.

Alison: Yeah.

Georges: I mean, they they happen sooner than expected, you know, so this manifestation system, with the confidence that the family gives and the support system that I had was super strong and that the musical atmosphere that I lived in helped a lot… I mean, my career wasn’t easy being being very young, you know, because, you know, I was very young compared to other composers who are doing the same thing. But I believed in my craft and my music, and I kept going. I never gave up. Not one day.

Jean: Right.

Alison: That’s that’s such a beautiful lesson.

Jean: Yeah. And it speaks to the power of believing in…

Alison: in Yourself

Jean: …Yourself… And if you can’t believe in yourself that someone else can help hold a bar for you. Come on, you can do it. Let’s go. Come, and our friends do that for us, like, if I feel struggling, I know Allison can say, oh, you got this, Jean. And and it’s lovely that your parents were– they saw the innate gift within you and and could elicit that from you and and bring it and bring it out and and to your point that you you love and you believed in your music and, um, it’s so great. I am so curious, George, with all the success that you’ve achieved at a very at a young age, how do you stay grounded in your, your life?

Georges: Faith, and maybe in a personal on a personal level, maybe, um, my relationship with God, that’s how I stay grounded, because, you know, I have I have a strong, uh, um, faith in God. And I feel he gave me everything and he can take back everything. I mean, you know what I mean? Um, being humble is not easy. I don’t like when people say in the industry. Yeah, yeah, we shouldn’t be arrogant. No, it’s not easy not to be arrogant when someone gets something big. That’s reality. When someone says, yeah, yeah, we have to be humble. No, that’s not the right answer, I feel, because there’s, there’s a, there’s a, um, adrenaline that an artist feel after every concert, after every success, after every award that gives him blindness, you know what I mean? Even me, when I finish a concert, I always, I miss some time calling my family… Calling, you know, my calling, my girlfriend, calling somebody. This is not because I’m arrogant, because there’s a feeling of adrenaline that that all this thing gives you and it can blind you easily. I feel remembering, remembering, remembering how life, uh, began, uh, with me– with you and how how it was very tough to where we reached and how how hard we fought and how hard we prayed. Right. And makes me more, uh, trying to stay calm, you know, because I don’t have a I don’t feel like I reached the Paramount. It’s just an endless mountain. And thinking that way would be would be healthy. Yes. I may tend to forget some days, uh, that I need to be more humble and more humble. And that’s not, that’s an exercise that every artist should have. Um, and I think the only solution to being grounded as a human before as before being an artist is just, uh, that’s my personal, uh, um, belief is just, I don’t know, being a believer in God and praying and willing, willing everything that is into the good in this world.

Jean: Yeah. That’s beautiful.

Georges: You, um… it looks like your projects aimed towards causes, like you are doing that movie about adult autism. And you did the Memorial Bow and all these these projects. Do you search for them or do they just sort of like you’re attracting them?

Georges: Um, you know, sometimes I attract them. Sometimes it’s just a coincidence. Like, let’s say I’m playing for a big charity event in Festival de Cannes or at the Oscars, like last year at the Oscars with Children Nations or better World Fund and Festival de Cannes, or for Venice, or I meet people there that have a cause, you know, they have like a cause in their life. They’re supporting a cause. We say in French, the boucherie…. Like you know me, you have a cause. You go, you tell your friend, oh, I met this composer– that would be a coincidence. But also, I feel because I believe I want to contribute not only musically, to inspire musicians. I want to contribute in my art to support good cause. Right. Because I still believe that there is a lot of good people in this world, and I want to be part of this direction, you know, to support, uh, as much as I can being an artist. So I think it could be manifestation, it could be coincidence, it could be friends telling another friend. It could be my agent. hahah

Alison: hahahah–It could be your agent. That’s true, that’s true– it could be. Is there some cause that you’ve either worked on or something you’d like to work on that you feel really speaks to you?

Georges: I feel every cause has its special, uh, effect on me. I’ve worked on, uh, autism, um, United Against Violence, uh, Children United. Um, um, women empowerment. Yeah. Um, I like that because I don’t know why I feel the female, uh, effect is very inspiring to me, and I and I, and I would want to see a world where women are just standing out, and they’re they’re changing the world. Because I feel if the world is ruled by women, we wouldn’t have not not a single war. So, uh, I don’t know… Every cause has its special effect on me, I feel.

Alison: Oh, I love that.

Georges: Oh,  there’s one cause, to be honest. There’s actually one cause that is is really interesting. It’s with a with an NGO called CMA. It’s Italian. Uh, and CMA means together. It’s, um, this cause is really interesting. It, um, cures, um, the sick people with music. That’s very interesting because I didn’t really believe that would work until I went and I and I witnessed it in my own eyes. You know, it might cure someone who’s sick. It might extend, you know, his life because music gives such a such a powerful hope that you believe. You know, you believe that.. No, I’m going to live longer. I’m gonna, you know, I’m going to have a better health that cause I’m working on now and it’s super interesting because you feel it’s like magic, like I’m a composer and I’m being an indirect doctor. You know what I mean? Yeah, it’s weird to think that way, right? But when you believe it, when I believe it, when I’m writing music, it’s super nice because you feel you might, you might, i don’t know, I don’t want to say I have an effect on anyone’s life– that’s very weird, but I’m just just try to understand what I’m saying. It feels like I’m giving hope, you know what I mean? And giving hope to people that that are hopeless is such an amazing feeling. Yeah. So I think that that causes is really interesting in my life.

Jean: Yeah, I love that because I’ve done some investigation around sound healing and how non, non non-verbal music really taps into the the right side of the brain where the creative aspect is, it’s the intuitive part. And rather than we, most of us live so much from one hemisphere of the brain, music actually helps.

Alison: Counter that.

Jean: Counter that, right? And you know that healing…. They say like if you listen to Mozart or Beethoven, but nonverbal because then the mind isn’t understanding a story from the words. It’s pure…

Georges: Absolutely.

Jean: ..Music and and I think with the the power of the your intention plus the vibration of the the notes it it is an avenue for great healing.

Georges: Yeah. So absolutely.

Jean: I applaud you in your quest because I do think, like I said, just listening yesterday afternoon to your music, um, I, I felt rejuvenated. I had I, I felt great. Yeah, I mean I and I, you know, I’m blessed that I don’t deal with depression, but I can get a little overwhelmed and just like anyone else… And I was like, wow, i made a few extra phone calls… I, I really felt lovely.

Georges: So I’m humbled. I’m really happy to hear that.

Alison: Do you ever feel that you have an off or a bad performance?

Georges: Bad performance? I mean, I’m someone who has struggled having a speech on stage, but I don’t know why performing, i’ve never had I don’t want to say a bad performance… I may have a better performance in Carnegie Hall than Los Angeles, than Croatia, but I’ve never had a bad performance. But I had bad speeches, if you count them. I don’t know why?

Jean: Me too.

Georges: I don’t know why? Every time I have a speech, I confuse all the words– I thank who I should not be thanking, and I forget to thank who I should be thanking. Right? And I feel I don’t know why… Like when I play with an orchestra of 200 people, 100 musicians, I don’t care. Yeah, but when I speak, I don’t know. I feel it’s not. It might not be my thing. So. Yeah, but actually in Croatia it was not bad when I won an award. It was not that bad, but well, also, I forgot to thank a lot of people and I forgot to speak about… Yeah. And it shows. It’s very obvious when I’m when I’m stressing, I start saying things that are, that doesn’t make sense. Right. Like these two lines doesn’t make don’t make sense. That’s that’s the fright I have on stage. And by the way, I’m scoring a movie now called Practice Makes Perfect. Oh, it’s the life of the pianist. She’s brilliant, but she cannot play on stage. She has a problem. She has a fright now.   I signed this contract three days ago only. And that’s interesting. Yeah, because this exists. A lot of musicians are super talented, but they just missed a big career because they have a fright on stage.

Jean: Yeah

Alison: Yeah, that’s funny that you say that because we we talk about that a lot. You know, uh, Jessica Tandy, my friend was, um, Jessica Tandy’s daughter. And you think of Jessica, i don’t know if you know who that is, but she’s a great, great stage actress, and every night, like she got sick before she went on and she did it, you know? But I love that for you it’s speaking… You know, I love that.

Georges: In in back in 2022, I had the concert at the Biennale, the Venice Film Festival, and I had the performance and there was Catherine Deneuve, you know, the iconic actress, French actress. She was there. And the second I was going on stage, the Queen, uh, Elizabeth passed away, the second I was going on stage. And then they asked me to take one minute, uh, silence, uh, and announce that. I went on stage and I said– I didn’t do any kind of introduction because I was super stressed. And I said, the Queen just died. Let’s take a minute, uh, of silence. And people were like, who’s the queen who died? A minute of silence of what? You know, I was super stressed that I couldn’t read what’s in my hand. You know what I mean? Yeah. I feel I’m improving a little bit. I’m improving…  i don’t know, I hope that that fright would go away eventually..

Alison: That’s true. That’s very true… You know, right.

Jean: So, uh, are you going to come to the United States anytime soon?

Georges: Oh, I’m always I mean, I’m always in LA, and I visit L.A. at least twice or three times a year for concerts. For festivals. Yeah, I think I, I mean, if I have a Grammy nomination, I’m coming to L.A. in February.

Jean: Okay..Well, we would love to see you.

Georges: Yeah. For sure. We will meet. And even if I don’t have a Grammy nomination, I always go to LA to just reconnect with old friends to connect with new cinema, uh, directors, producers. LA is my… I feel it’s my second home. And I love Los Angeles.

Alison: That’s great,

Jean: I heard that, yeah, that you do like Los Angeles… And Los Angeles loves you.

Alison: That’s right.

Jean: And we are really excited– hopefully we’ll get to go to a concert that you that you give…

Alison: That would be so great…

Jean: We’ll get Brad to take us.

Alison:  right, right. Yes. We’ll go with Brad.

Georges: Um, well, Brad came to a Carnegie Hall and yeah, he really had a great time with him.

Alison: He’s he’s such a great man.. He’s so sweet. What what do you hope your music, um, gives to or lends to future generations? Because we’re having such a time right now in the world, it feels like…I’m just interested to to wonder what you hope your music will, will do for for kids that maybe aren’t even born yet?

Georges: I hope that my music would give more faith in – one, musicians that that have no hope to to to build the career. Because, you know, I tell you, I started from scratch from zero. And I believed that with my music I’m going to reach somewhere. So the first exercise of every young, young musician should be that I need to do my best to go to opera concerts, ballets, uh, orchestral shows. They need to travel, you know, and they need to experience a lot of music to believe in their music. They cannot just create without experiencing, you know, other music, experiencing Beethoven, Mozart, Tchaikovsky, Brahms, Mahler and see the differences, you know, the difference between every single composer, because every single composer needs to find his identity, musical identity first. Right. Back to your question. What I would dream that my music would do? I mean, I would dream that I would have 1% of what I feel of Beethoven music creates in me, on every musician, on every human being, to just give hope and give, um, like you just said, I mean, I changed a little part of your day, but that’s that’s huge for me.

Georges: Yeah. Because those few seconds that you heard took me many months to create. So when I feel that these small musical ideas are, are, um, are having a good influence on people, this is where I feel more motivated to write music, you know what I mean? And I hope my music would inspire young composers to believe in their path and and and not have obstacles, you know, even I had a lot of objections around me because I was young, I was supported by my family. But a lot of orchestras told me, yeah, okay, you’re very talented, but you’re very young. So these obstacles are very important for the musician to, to, to keep building his trust in himself, you know… So I hope my music would give a little hope that to the young composers, that they really can make it where they dream to make it. Not that I say that I made it yet, you know. But I mean, I can say that I dream to be where I am now.

Jean: Right.

Georges: And, I mean, I have other dreams, and on people that are not musicians, I feel my music would be a nice prayer to them. Maybe that’s what I…

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: That is so. That is so.

Jean: Heartfelt.

Alison: yeah. Thank you for that’s beautiful.

Jean: Very true. And, and for yourself, George, what do you, what do you see? Like in the next two, two years, two, three years?

Georges: Uh, more orchestras, more musicians, more singers, more directors, producers, dancers, choreographers. Super nice to work with different people, different nationalities. I work with Americans, French, German, Russian, now Uzbekistan. Uh, I work with people from all over the world. Budapest. Uh, Prague, literally working with different nationalities and seeing those musicians like, you know, the other day I was thinking, like, I’m writing music now in France, right? And I need to go to Budapest, and there’s 90 people that are gonna wake up at 6 a.m. to take a shower, have breakfast early in the morning, practice my music, then come and play my music. I’ve never met these people but they’re playing a language that I’m writing right here, like, i mean, I have my music here. I mean, you know, I’m here, I’m writing music. So imagine this piece of paper with pencil, you know, is being performed by people that I never met.. Like the feeling of of sharing these music, these notes with people I didn’t meet is weirdly nice.. You know what I mean?

Jean:  absolutely.

Georges: I mean, I would just want to expand my music on different, uh, territories. Maybe I want to go to experience Asian musicians, Australian musicians, Indian musicians. That’s amazing because I feel music is such a powerful, universal language that unify all of us. You know what I mean? And yeah, I mean, it’s music is the language that all nations speak, I feel. And it’s nice to to experience that.

Alison: I think music and laughter.

Georges: Yeah, exactly. That’s a nice one.

Alison: You know, I totally, totally agree with you. What do you, what what’s like on your Spotify list? Like, what do you what do you like to listen to?  like what’s fun for you?

Georges: I mean, I listened to pop, I listened to rock, I listened to rap, I listened to all kind of music. That’s what’s nice. Yeah. And, you know, it’s good to drift a little bit away from my genre of music. Uh, I listened to Beethoven, Mahler, Wagner, opera, ballet, all kind of music. Everything is nice. The other day I was thinking that, you know, Eminem has has a has a song that I love, eight miles that I grew up listening to it and I and I saw the Oscar version and I didn’t fall in love with the orchestration. And I said, maybe one day I’ll do it. Yeah, I’m open to create. You know, I wrote even music pop songs with Adam Leipzig X um, VP of Disney. We wrote a pop song for his movie. He said in holiday. Wow. And so I’m open to write all genres of music, you know? Yeah. And I love that.

Jean: I can so see that for you. I can totally see that for you because you you’re at a great age in your in your life right now. And you’ve had so much beautiful experience and, and you have this great heart that’s open to, to to bring and know other people’s music. You’re so great.

Alison: You’re really, really amazing. You know, when I was very young, I was able to go to see Leonard Bernstein, do those young people’s concerts with my mom, and we would we had a series and we would go. And he made it seem so accessible to this little kid from the Bronx. And you have that same sort of energy.

Georges: So I’m really humbled to hear that. Thank you so much.

Alison: Amazing. Yeah. So just to just to wrap up, um, our podcast is named Inside Wink. That’s the name, inside wink.

Georges: Right.

Alison: What do you think that means?

Georges: It’s a secret code.  Maybe a Secret code between two entities, whether it’s it’s two persons or one person to to, I don’t know, to a group of people. It’s a very creative name, by the way. It has a lot of meaning, inside wink is yeah, it can hide good stuff. It can hide bad stuff.  It could create magic. It could create a love relationship. It can create anything. It’s a very nice name, by the way, for the podcast.

Alison: Thank you, thank you, thank you. Can’t wait to hear the music you write about it. No. hahah

Georges: Yeah. Let’s do it. Yeah.  Actually, you know what? I love the name. I may use it.

Alison: Okay. Do it before. All right. Okay.

Jean: And and finally, George, do you like cake, pie or ice cream?

Georges: The three of it, I love desserts…Cake, pie and ice cream.

Alison: All of them.

Georges: Yeah, I love tiramisu. Actually, tiramisu is my favorite dessert.

Alison: Oh, yeah. Me too.

Alison: George, thank you so much. You’re just such a blessing on so many levels. And we really appreciate you. And really best of, best of luck and high sailing to you. Really..

Jean: Yeah.

Georges: Thank you so much. Thank you for hosting me. This was such a friendly and very nice interview. This is one of the best interviews I’ve had so far.. It was super and nice. Thank you so much.

Jean: We’re so happy to have met you. All the best.

Alison: Yeah. Have a beautiful evening.

Georges: Have a good day. We’ll meet in Los Angeles soon.

Alison: We will. Bye.

Georges:  chao. Chao.

Alison: I love …I loved that interview.

Jean: How great was that?

Alison: Yeah and he’s so, he’s just so full of life and hope and wanting to, um, have people feel his passion and give them a love and unity like you, just feel it from him, right?

Jean: I love what his answer was when you asked him, what he hoped his music would  do for the listeners. And I thought that answer of unifying people and connecting people was really great, because that is music, is such a universal language. And, um, you know, it it speaks to how powerful, uh, creativity is when you’re, when you’re in a creative mode that that really unleashes something very deep within ourselves.

Alison: Yes. And I, I think– we don’t have to be concert pianists.

Georges: Exactly.

Alison: Or famous painters. We can, uh.

Jean: Just appreciate it.

Alison: Just appreciating it. We can doodle. We can make a nice dinner, right? We can rearrange paintings on our wall. Yeah.

Jean: You can just write a nice thank you note from your heart. All of that is creative. And and it’s important that we we acknowledge that and that we, we see, you know, we are creative every day in our even in our talk and how we move through our lives.

Alison: When I, when I meet someone like him, I realize, oh, I have that in me too. It’s not just him –like, oh, oh, he’s famous, he’s great… He’s a prodigy. He’s this, he’s that… Whatever we want to seize outside of ourselves, but if we can embrace it, and be like, oh, I have this…

Jean: I’m inspired by that…

Alison: Right.

Jean: And rather than feeling separate from him, because it’s so easy right away, go. Wow. Oh my gosh, God.  This guy has accomplished all this. But it’s if you can turn that around like you said and just go, that’s that’s within me. It might not look the same way..

Alison: right.  And, you know, even telling a good joke can be creative.

Jean: Yeah..God Bless the joke tellers.

Alison: Exactly. So thank you so much, George, you really are, really, Um,

Jean: Beautiful person, inside and out.

Alison: And a fun interview.

Jean: That was great.

Alison: It was really fun. So we hope that today you take a minute to find your creative self and dance with it a little.

Jean: Dance away.

Alison: That’s right. Have a great day.

Jean: Bye.

Alison : What are you doing?

Jean : I’m reading the bio of Mike Robbins, and you have it (the recording) on.

Alison : Yep.

Jean : Because, Allison, I loved his book.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : It’s so great. And and not only this book, but get a load of the other titles of his other books… “Bring your whole self to work”,  “Be yourself, everyone is already taken”, “Focus on the good stuff” , Nothing changes until you do” ,  I mean, every one of his books…

Alison : And this one is,  “We’re all in this together”, which I think is perfect for right now.

Jean : Absolutely. And and if you, if you’re not in a corporate environment, if you… All the information here works for your home, family life too.

Alison : Exactly. And friends or even volunteer organizations or…  it’s really– I can’t wait to talk to him.

Jean : I know.

Alison : Because he seems so positive.

Jean : He he’s just seems like, like such a well balanced human being.. You know, strong in his masculine, strong in the feminine side and just brings it all together. And all of his tips and his experiences really led him to this place to be a great speaker and a champion for being the best human you can be.

Alison : You are on fire! You are on fire and, i can go home…

Jean : And scene!

Alison : And Scene! All right, here’s the interview.

Alison : There you are, Hi… Thank you so much for doing this.

Mike: Yeah, thanks for asking me to… I’m excited and appreciate you reaching out.

Alison : We love your book.

Jean : We love your book.

Alison : We’re all in this together… I think it’s a perfect title for right now.

Mike: Yeah, No kidding. Right?

Alison : Yeah. It’s been, uh, it’s been quite, quite a few years.

Mike: Yeah, It has.

Alison : I have to say this gave me hope. You seem so positive… And yet, like you’re giving us time to sort of self-reflect, which I really, I really enjoyed this. So thank you.

Mike: I appreciate it. You’re welcome.

Alison : And, go ahead…

Jean : Well, and I, I was thinking that your book is so beneficial not only to the corporate world and business world, but but as just living in your family. Um, so I thank you for that. I gleaned a lot of tips from it.

Alison : Yeah, I want to know. I want to know about your family dynamic, but first…

Mike: Yeah, Happy to talk about any of that..

Alison :  I love that. So you talk about four pillars of creating a team culture. Uh, Psychological Safety. Focus on Inclusion and Belonging. Embrace Sweaty Palms Conversations– which is a great tip because I think we all avoid that and, Care about and Challenge each other. So the first the first chapter, um, Psychological Safety, how do you even do that in a world filled with social media?

Mike: Well, it’s tricky for sure, for all of us. I mean, I think at some level, you know, I like to think of psychological safety as kind of group trust. So whether we’re talking about a group or a team at work or whether we’re talking about a family or community, I mean, in the world of of social media, you could say is definitely not a psychologically safe environment because what the components of psychological safety are really that, I know if I’m part of a group with psychological safety, I’m not going to be shamed or ridiculed or kicked out of the group simply because I have a different opinion or I make a mistake, or even if I fail. And so, in a large environment like the world, when we get on Instagram or Facebook or X or any of them, it doesn’t exist there. But within our teams, within our families, within our communities, we can create a sense of psychological safety, which doesn’t mean that we’re not going to disagree and challenge each other, but it does mean we’re going to respect and appreciate people’s differences. And the group dynamic is such that it feels safe enough for people to show up and engage, even if they disagree, or if, you know, people make mistakes.

Alison : That’s exactly right. And I think I’ve been in situations where I’ve not felt psychologically safe and felt very psychologically safe. And the difference…. Can you really describe some tips that you would know if you’re in a group where you just think, what does that really mean in my, in my experience, psychological safety?

Mike: I mean, I think it’s, you know, do we feel safe to speak up? Do we feel safe to show our full self or as much of our full self as possible? Um, you know, do we feel like we can ask questions or admit when we made a mistake or don’t understand something? You know, those are the types of things that often will make us know that we’re in an environment where we feel psychologically safe. And then on the flip side, what we can do to create psychological safety as much as possible… I’m often talking to leaders and managers inside of businesses, but in a family or in a situation, especially if you’re in a position of leadership or authority. But even if you’re not, the more authentic and the more vulnerable people can be, the more it sets the tone in the group or in the environment, that it’s okay for people to be different or to make mistakes. You know, if you can be the kind of person that admits, hey, I screwed this up, or hey, I don’t understand that, or hey, I could use some help. You’re signaling to everyone else those are all okay behaviors in this environment.

Alison : Right…It’s interesting because we talked to Cheryl Farrell who does storytelling with corporate executives, and it’s very interesting that she said it’s tough sometimes for leaders in a corporate setting to be vulnerable.

Mike: Yeah, absolutely.  I mean, look, I think all of us have been taught we’ve all gotten different messages, right? And the messages are different based on our age, based on our race, based on our gender, based on our orientation, our background. Right? I mean, in a, in a general sense, and I know this is an overgeneralization, but as I’m working in the corporate world for leaders, when I talk to a lot of male leaders, what they’ll tell me and I can relate to this as a man is, a lot of us were raised with the suck it up boys, don’t cry, be a man, that kind of mentality. So you’re not supposed to show any vulnerability, any weakness, because doing that, it often sort of makes it ten x worse than whatever it is you’re feeling vulnerable about. When I talk to a lot of female leaders or just women at work in general. They’ll say, look, it’s taken me so much to get to this position, to get in this situation, to be in this room, to have this role. The last thing I want to do is show any vulnerability or any emotionality. They’re going to go, oh, there she goes again, being emotional, which you both know better than I do, a man can say and do the same thing that a woman does and it gets perceived very differently. So I often say that it’s challenging for all of us, I think, to be vulnerable for different reasons. And the story may be, again, I’m I’m part of one or multiple groups that aren’t in the majority in this particular environment…therefore, I don’t feel safe enough. But on the flip side, when you talk to people who are in the majority, yes, they have more positional power, maybe more privilege, but they’ll also say, that goes against the norm and I’m afraid I’ll lose whatever credibility I have. So the reasons might be different. But I think in general, most of my research shows that it’s hard for all of us to be vulnerable.

Alison : That feels good to hear.

Jean : Yeah.  And and in your book you give a really great question, which I’ve already used in my family dynamics… If you really knew me….

Mike: Yeah.

Jean : And where did you get,  how did that come about? Do you use it a lot? Because I thought that was genius.

Mike: You know, Yeah… I appreciate you asking about that. So many years ago, some friends of ours who were mentors of mine and my wife’s, Rich and Yvonne Saint John, they started a non-profit organization called Challenge Day– that still exists, and they do their work all over the country and around the world. And the work is actually done in middle schools and high schools primarily. And so the exercise that I do with a lot of corporate teams, and I talk about in the book, is basically this idea of asking that question or repeating that phrase, “if you really knew me, you’d know this about me”, with the idea being to lower the waterline on the iceberg, the metaphor that I like to use when we’re talking about vulnerability and what it does, it prompts us to then, you know, get a little more real or lower that waterline on the iceberg. And I’ve done this exercise for the last 20 plus years in all different types of environments and settings. And what we’ll do is usually I’ll start if I’m facilitating it, and maybe it’s a small group, a senior leadership team, maybe I’m with a big group and I’ll put them into small groups. But I basically just set the context and say, look, we’re going to share some things vulnerably. You don’t have to say anything you don’t want to say. So I’m not forcing you into some uncomfortable situation, but I invite you to step into this place of vulnerability and just repeat that phrase a few times and say whatever you want to say to the people here and just see what happens.

Mike: And then the instructions for the people in the group is that when one person is talking, no one else will be talking, so that everyone’s going to get a chance to just say whatever they want to say about, if we really knew them in that moment. And, you know, over the years, I’ve just seen some pretty remarkable things happen when we have this conversation that people will share and disclose some things not for shock value, but just if you really knew what was going on and what we find, I mean, it’s it’s understandable, but just like the further down below the water line we go, the more similar we become. And it doesn’t matter if I’m working with a group in Silicon Valley near where I live, or if I’m in Texas or Florida or Arizona, or if I’m in Europe or Asia, or I was in Dubai a few weeks ago and we were having this conversation. It’s like it’s pretty human that the stuff down below the waterline is the stuff that really makes us human. The joy, the pain, the excitement, the sadness, the gratitude, the grief. It’s all there.

Alison : You’re towards the end of the book when you’re talking, and i’m sorry about your the loss of your sister, when you were talking about that, um, that if you really knew me into that group and you had just gotten off a plane and you were jet lagged, and then I think one of the people said, can we just hug each other? And I got so emotional reading that because I think the times that I’ve connected to most, even to strangers, is when you let your guard down a little bit and then someone steps in and you’re able to have this connection. I mean, that must have felt incredible for you?

Mike: It really was. I mean, I was yeah, I was in Switzerland with a group from Roche and these people, you know, very smart, very high level… And, you know, I’m always someone who kind of leads with my heart, and my work is a lot about that aspect. But I’m also trying to be mindful of where I am and who I’m with and, you know, respectful and appropriate. But in that situation, you know, they got really vulnerable with each other and they shared a lot. I shared a lot. We were all in this space. And, you know, one of the men just raised his hand and said, can we take a break and just give each other some hugs? Which, you know, of course, like that was music to my ears. Like, you don’t have to ask me twice for that, but to see them do that and again, time and time again, um, you know, I’ve seen that over the course of my life and with my work. And I do think, you know of the many things that can bring us together as human beings, it doesn’t always have to be pain, right? But when we do experience pain or loss or grief or that sadness of being human, there is something that’s kind of equalizing about it.

Mike: And it does remind us, you know, even when we find ourselves, as we do here in this country, in many places in the world, so divided, and the politics of things, or whether we’re talking about religion or other issues, that’s us and it’s them. And, you know, I get that I live in the real world, but I am, at my core, an optimist. And there’s a reason why I wrote a book called, “We’re All in This Together”, because at the core, like, I don’t really know who the them is when we’re talking about humanity, right? When we’re really talking about that place in us that, you know, the joyful place and the painful place, it’s like, I’m pretty sure even people I might vehemently disagree with on some really important things, they probably feel the same way when someone close to them passes, or when they’re going through something hard, or when they have a great joy in their life. And that seems pretty universal to me.

Alison : Yeah.  We have I have relatives in Asheville, and everyone is just coming together in such a way that the texts from my nieces really reflect the beauty of that..ya know,  and it’s very, it’s very moving to see that, you know?

Mike: Yeah.  For sure. Well, and that’s I mean, sometimes those in those situations when there is a crisis, when there is a, a hurricane, a flood, a fire, an earthquake, there is that element of, you know, we’re just coming together. I remember, you know, a few years ago when there was a flood down in Texas and, you know, they were showing all these scenes of people in boats just kind of going around and helping people out. And the conversation was, you know, I don’t think they were asking like, are you a Democrat or a Republican before you get into the boat? Do you know what I mean? Like, it’s just like we we help our neighbors, we help each other out in those situations. And a lot of the things that divide us, even as important as those things can be, when push comes to shove, they just don’t mean that much.

Alison : Right.

Jean : I think you hit the nail on the head right out the gate, Mike, with with the psychological safety. And and I was reflecting back on my life and how much, especially when I was younger, you know, really covered up so much and, um, I just, I thought this was so liberating to go, you know, if we can all just go be underneath the water line… Um, it it’s safe when we’re together, you know?

Mike: It is really liberating. And, look, it is scary. I mean, I remember, I mean, part of my inclination towards this work, you know, as a kid growing up, I just remember, like, a lot of us, you know, I felt weird, I felt different, I felt, you know, there were things going on. My parents split up and my dad had this thing called, they called it manic depression in those days, we now call it bipolar disorder. I didn’t know what the heck that was, but it seemed weird and we didn’t have as much money as some of the other kids. Or, you know, I went through puberty at an early age and, you know, awkward phase. I mean, all the things, life things. Right. But when, you know, as a kid, I just thought like something was wrong with me. And I had all these thoughts and all these feelings inside of me. And we were at school and nobody was talking about that stuff. And especially, you know, as a boy growing up, and I was an athlete and it was like, suck it up, be tough. And, you know, I wasn’t very tough. So I say all of that because there were moments in my life, even as a child and in adolescence and as a young, where someone would tell the truth about something and they would just say, I think about this, or I worry about that, and I’d go, oh, me too. Like, I didn’t know you could say that out loud, right? And and there was that sense of connection, but also liberation. And as I started to get a little older, and even though it would be scary and awkward and I would worry about being judged whenever I did that, I felt that exhilaration and that like, oh, I don’t have to hide and pretend anymore, right? And then mostly people would respond with that sense of, yeah, like I feel like that too. Thank you for saying that. And then it was like, oh, maybe we can have a more real conversation.

Alison : Yes.

Mike: And what’s interesting, I mean, you mentioned social media earlier. The interesting thing about social media… Look, there’s a lot of issues with it, clearly. And, you know, my wife Michelle and I have teenage daughters, 18 and 16. And so we’ve been going through it, you know, with them over the last number of years and all of the things that we do know, the dark side and the negative side of it. One of the things, though, that I do think that can be really beautiful about social media and what’s happened in the way that we express ourselves so much more these days, is so many more stories get shared. And so and all of us do have these platforms now, however big or small they are, where we can tell our story and share our story and let people know this happened to me, or this has been my experience, or this is how I feel. And there’s more sense of, oh wow, these things are okay to talk about. Whereas ten years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 50 years ago, we didn’t talk about those things and we definitely didn’t talk about them publicly.

Alison : Right, right..Exactly.

Jean : And you talk about that too mike, that we were all we’re all raised differently.. So something that would, you know, would be a real trigger for me, might not be for Alison.

Mike: Right.

Jean : Might be for you. Might not be– you know.

Mike: Yeah.

Jean : That’s that’s great to remember.

Mike: Yeah.  Well and look, our first team in life is our family and, you know, I mean, my my wife and I are the same race. We are about the same age. We grew up here in the San Francisco Bay area. I grew up in Oakland. We now live in Marin County, right near where my wife grew up. But it’s funny because we grew up so differently. Our families are so different. And like one story that I often tell, that’s kind of funny. Like, my wife and I have been together for about 25 years, but the first time I went over to her grandmother’s house, her grandmother was the matriarch of the family. She’s been gone for about 15 years now. But I meet grandma. I meet my wife’s dad and, you know, aunt and uncle and her brother and some of the family, you know. And so and we’ve been dating for a few months, and we have this nice dinner at grandma’s house, and we’re driving back to San Francisco, where we were living at the time. And I’m, you know, checking in with Michelle, like, how did I do?  well, how did you think you went? I was like, well, you know, it was good. What did you think? And I was like, your family seemed nice, but, um, I noticed they didn’t talk a lot. And she said, I know because you talked the whole time. And I was like, what? And she said, in my family, we don’t interrupt.

Alison : Yeah.

Mike: And I was like, really? In my family, if you don’t interrupt, you don’t get to say anything. So I was nervous, right? I was talking a lot, which I like to talk. Right. And they weren’t interrupting me. I thought they were really interested. But Michelle was mortified because I just kept talking and talking. And, you know, 25 years later, I still have to remind myself when I’m with my in-laws, like, oh yeah, give them space. Ask them questions because they’re just, you know…. And so again, I say that because sometimes we think of like cultural differences. And yeah, if we’re a different race and we grew up halfway around the world from each other and, but sometimes we can live in the same town. And it’s like our family culture is very different. Or you’re the oldest and you have four younger siblings, or I’m an only child or someone’s a, you know, the youngest of whatever it is, then it becomes, oh, that really influences how we’re wired and how we enter the world.

Alison : Yeah, I totally and I, I thought so many of your points were really interesting and one that really, like, hung me up a little was– phony, honest, authentic. Because my whole life I have thought honesty was authenticity. And I went, what the heck is this guy saying? Like, it took me, it took me a while… Can you can you go through that for our listeners?

Mike: Yeah, absolutely. So I think about I call this the authenticity continuum, right. On one side of the continuum is phony. We all kind of know what that is. We don’t we don’t like that. We don’t want to be that. We get upset when other people are that way. But we also, if we’re being really honest with ourselves, we know sometimes we can be phony. But then in the middle of the continuum is honest, which is good. And most of us have been taught, you know, honesty is the best policy, you know, be honest. But we’ve also all gotten in trouble for being too honest, or we put our foot in our mouth, or that friend of ours said, what do you think of this you know, guy I’m dating? And you’re like, well, I don’t like him. And then they get married and you’re like, oops.

Alison : Right. That is exactly right.

Mike: Or  whatever, i mean, fill in the blank. There’s been times where it’s like, oh no, don’t be that honest or not about that topic or not in this situation. So then we start to massage the truth a bit. We start to figure out how honest can I be and in this environment or at work or whatever, and it becomes really stressful, understandable but stressful, but where there’s real freedom and power is on the other side of honesty. That’s where authenticity lies. So yes, authenticity is about being honest. Absolutely. But in order to get to authenticity on the far end of the spectrum is the continuum, we got to remove something from our honesty and we got to add something to it. What we have to remove is our self-righteousness, and what we have to add is vulnerability. And so those two things, self-righteousness being like, I’m right, you’re wrong, which there’s a lot of that in our society these days. And vulnerability, which we’ve been talking about is really that sense of lowering the water line on the iceberg. So removing self-righteousness isn’t about not having strong opinions or not speaking up, but it’s about removing the arrogance that says just because I think it just because I believe it, just because it matters to me that I am right with a capital R and anyone who disagrees with me is wrong.

Alison : So That comes with honesty?

Mike: Yeah. So what happens oftentimes with our honesty, right, because when we think of honesty in this binary way, like I’m either honest or, you know, dishonest..well  I don’t want to be dishonest, but it’s it’s often this, like I’m just speaking my truth, i’m just telling it like it is. And you know, we get in all these arguments, cultural arguments, you know, East Coast versus West Coast or people in different countries speak different… And look, there is some truth to that, right? Yeah. I mean, again, I’m born and raised in California, in the Bay area, like I was just in Boston two days ago. And it’s like people communicate a little differently in Boston than they do in California culturally. Right? If we go to Mississippi, if we go, I mean, again, not everyone communicates the same way. But if we, you know, travel to Israel or we travel to Ireland or we travel to, you know, Japan, there are differences, clearly. But ultimately self-righteousness is about right versus wrong. I’m right. You’re wrong. And there’s a distinction between self-righteousness. When we’re self-righteous, we separate ourselves from each other. It’s hard to build trust. It’s hard to have any psychological safety. That’s why it’s so difficult to talk about politics, to talk about divisive issues, because it’s like you’re either on this side or that side, and there’s no in between, right? Conviction, though, on the other hand, is subtle but significantly different than self-righteousness. Conviction means I believe this to be true. I’m willing to speak up about it. I’m willing to engage &  debate. I’m willing to even have a passionately, you know, passionate conflict conversation with someone, however, I have enough humility, enough self-awareness to realize a couple of things… First of all, I might be wrong. Right?

Mike: Sometimes we’re convinced we’re right, only to realize, upon further reflection, we’re actually wrong. I mean, even about, like, really important things, I think about parenting, I think about marriage, I think about lots of health and other things that the things that I believe to be true today are not only different than maybe five years ago, ten years ago, in some cases 180 degrees, like I flipped exactly on like pretty important stuff because I learned some new things, or I had some new experience or some new information came out, or whatever the case may be, but it may also not be a right wrong thing… Maybe it’s just a values thing? Conviction is understanding maybe there’s another way to look at this thing that I can’t currently see, which is always true, right? Even as open minded as any of us want to be, and I try to be as open minded as I can… Like we’re all biased. We’re just biased based on our life experience.

Mike: Right ,I can only see the world the way that I see the world. And you’re going to see it differently than me, which is a beautiful thing, but also a challenging thing if we’re in relationship of any kind, because those things are going to bump up against each other. So that’s the nuance there of like being able to embrace, oh, there’s multiple ways to look at the same thing. Multiple things can be true at the same time. You know, most often in life there’s not like a correct answer and an incorrect answer. Sometimes there is if we’re talking about facts or data or it’s a math equation, but most of nuanced aspects of relationships and life and teams and families, it’s my perspective and your perspective, and we have to figure out how to coexist with those differing perspectives.

Alison : And then that’s so great, the way you put that. Then how does a leader, that’s goal is to go this way…  do you understand my like, how do you…. How do you broach that?

Mike: I like to make the distinction between the difference between alignment and agreement. Trying to get a group of people to agree on something important is hard, right? Because we’re going to have different opinions and different ideas. But if you create a psychologically safe environment where people can speak up, they can debate, discuss, disagree. A leader that is able to be honest but ultimately operate with authenticity can say to his or her team or group, listen, I’ve heard everybody, i hear where everyone’s coming from…. I’m going to have to make a call here,  because that’s one of the hardest parts of leadership… I mean, just even think about parenting… It’s like you argue with your spouse and then you have to decide. Okay…Right, oh, no… And then it’s like there’s, like, other people’s lives are at stake here, and we’re trying to do the right thing, but there’s no crystal ball, but we’re going to make a call and can everyone get aligned behind this thing? Even if you don’t 100% agree with it, because that’s what’s going to make us collectively as a group. The most successful is if we’re aligned heading in this direction. Now look, we can assess it along the way and make adjustments as we go. And maybe we get to the end of it or to some point. And we realize that was not the right decision. We’re going to shift and go another direction. But if you include people in the process, if you’re transparent about the fact that, like, hey, there’s a lot of different inputs here, and ultimately I got to make a tough decision, and I’m going to really need your support for this to happen. What often happens is we don’t agree with the decision. We’re annoyed we weren’t included. We weren’t acknowledged. There wasn’t some element. So now, okay, fine, I’ll get on board. But we do that weird thing where we’re, like, weirdly rooting against it. Because if it doesn’t go well, then we get to say… I told you that was the wrong decision.

Mike: It’s like…Well, okay..Now we all lost. But I got to be right. But, you know, but that’s how our, our egos sometimes works .. We just want to be right, so much so that we’ll sort of, you know, all the clichés are true- like, we cut off our nose to spite our face.

Jean : Right, right,

Mike: Right. So, you know, leadership is hard. It’s more of an art than a science, for sure.

Jean : I love that.  That is so true. It’s more of an art, right? It’s a balance. There’s a there’s it’s like a dance, right? Yeah. Um, so I think it’s pillar three that you talk about sweaty palm conversations, which is like, no….Especially given my personality, it’s it’s like, stay away from the conflict. Don’t want any pushback. And I’m going to share that, um, that’s, you know, Alex, my late husband, Alex, he was the one that did all that kind of stuff. And then he’d come and we’d have dinner and I’d be like, oh, you know, yeah, you did a good job. And now that he’s not here, I am the one that has to step up and have some conversations that I’m not always like, looking forward to.. And, um, I wish I read your book a year ago, Mike, but, um, can you talk about how you can reframe your mind to embrace sweaty palm conversations?

Mike: Well, a couple of things. I mean, first of all, um, you know, if you have someone in your life, like you did with Alex for so many years, who did that or was able to provide that, it’s it’s a beautiful thing. It’s a blessing. And then sometimes the dark side of it can be, oh, gosh, when I have to do it, it can be hard for all of us. I mean, this is one of the blessings and curses of having a partner who we love and rely on is like, oh, they handle certain things, we handle other things. And then, as you know and are living through, we lose someone, and it’s not only the pain and the grief of the loss, but the like, oh, now I have to step into all these spaces that are uncomfortable or vulnerable for me, right? So, um, I think it’s important to honor that within ourselves and all of us. And most people I talk to, even the people who take on those sweaty palm conversations, they don’t love them. They’re not like, excited about them. They’re hard. And so right. We all have some version of avoidance of those things, right? I mean, I much prefer writing about and teaching about sweaty palm conversations than actually having them, right?

Jean : Right.

Mike:  I can talk to you about your sweaty palm. Oh, yeah. Here’s what you should say. Or here’s what I would do if I were you. See you later. Have fun with that. Right? Because it’s not actually vulnerable for me to go have the conversation… One of the things, though, that I’ve learned in my personal experience and my research has also taught me about this, is that the natural human response to vulnerability is empathy. So if we can start a sweaty palm conversation with some level of vulnerability, which can be hard to do, you know, it’s usually a conflict or some kind of feedback or something that’s hard, right? But if we can, like I usually start by saying some version of I don’t really want to have this conversation or I’m afraid to talk to you about this or I’m worried this is going to go bad or you’re going to get upset or i bet I was up at 3:00 in the morning thinking about this or whatever, not to freak them out or lay it on them, but just to let them know this matters to me. You matter to me. And I’m feeling scared to talk to you about this, because what that does 99 times out of 100 or 999 times out of a thousand, the other person is going to at least be able to empathize with that experience emotionally, and then we’re having the conversation a little bit further down below the water line. When we come in super defensive or we’ve rehearsed the thing we’re going to say and we know we’re right and they’re wrong. And here’s why… Usually what happens is, then the self-righteousness comes from us, and the natural human response to self-righteousness is defensiveness.

Jean : Yes. Right.

Mike: So it’s it’s counterintuitive, but it’s like, can we have the conversation sooner rather than later? And can we go into it being vulnerable, knowing that, you know what, sometimes, not often, but sometimes we are going to get hurt by operating that way and that’s going to be super painful. But it’s the most effective way for us to engage. And if we have enough courage to go, like the worst thing they can do is say something or do something that’s really hurtful. I don’t want that to happen, but if that happens, I’ll probably survive because I’ve had that happen before, you know?

Alison : Right. Yeah, that’s totally great. And I have to say, my favorite chapter was the care about, do you know, because I just thought that that appreciation seat..  would be in some ways horrifying if I was in the seat, but fantastic if I wasn’t.

Mike: Yeah….So this is another one of my favorite exercises to do with teams. I call it the appreciation seat. And what I’ll do again, if the group is small enough, we do it all together. If it’s a bigger group, I’ll put people in small groups, but basically everyone has a turn to be on the appreciation seat I call it, which means for that two minutes, I’ll usually use the timer on my phone, you know, we all spend time appreciating someone, –everyone, and just organically. Everyone wants to say whatever they want to say to this individual. You know, we’ll start with Susie and then we go to John, and then we go around the whole group. And what happens is people get really uncomfortable about it at first, it’s awkward, it’s like people start making jokes and getting squirmy in their seat. But what almost always happens when I do this exercise with groups is that by the end of it, not only does it get really emotional and people are just deeply, beautifully expressing their appreciation for one another, and often there’s tears in the room, but like, people don’t want to stop doing it….Because it’s this weird thing that like, we all want to be appreciated, but most of us have a really hard time receiving appreciation. Um, and I often joke, but it’s not so much a joke because it’s true, it’s like I’ve literally I mean, I’ve been studying appreciation for the whole 24 years I’ve been doing this, i’ve never heard anyone say to me, you know what, Mike? I’m just too appreciated.

Alison : I love that.

Mike: I just wish my kids and my spouse and my friends and my colleagues and everyone would just stop appreciating me. It’s getting on my nerves.

Alison : No! Cool it.

Mike: Knock it off. Enough already. hahah I’m over appreciated. No, and the reason why?..is that we’re underappreciated, most of us, is not because people around us don’t care about us, and it’s often because, like, we’re not an invitation for appreciation. We don’t receive it. It’s if I came to your house on your birthday with a present, and I gave you the present for your birthday, I’m not expecting for you to run in the other room and get a present for me. That would be weird. It’s not my birthday, but I also really don’t want you to take my gift and throw it on the floor and say, why did you give me this gift? I don’t deserve it. Which is actually the way we respond to compliments and appreciations. Most of the time we either give one right back, which we might mean, but it’s such a knee jerk thing, we don’t even take it in. But more often, we deflect or discount or diminish it. And what we’ve just done is taken their emotional verbal gift they’ve given to us, and we’ve thrown it away without even taking it in.

Alison : Yeah…that’s fantastic. Do you do this with your family? This one?

Mike: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, look, it’s gotten a little more challenging as the girls became teenagers and it was, you know, they would say, dad, that’s so cringey. What are you doing? Right? But, you know…And my wife and I are like, we’re cringey. They also call us vibey, whatever that means? But the point is that, like, yeah, we did it with the girls when they were little and they were really open to it… As they’ve gotten older, it’s like you have to get a little more creative. And I say this too. It’s like whether it’s with our kids at different ages and stages kids, grandkids, nieces, nephews or our teams, it’s also like, you have to find a way in, you know, to how do I have the conversation? The goal is to have people feel valued, feel seen, feel acknowledged. Right? How we do that can vary a bit depending again, on people’s personalities, on people’s preferences. If we really care about… Again, think about the gift analogy. It’s like you could say, well, I have to give you this gift or this is the gift I want to give you. But it’s like, I don’t want that. Oh, well, what gift would you want? You know, so it’s like finding that out. It’s a dynamic process, right? Um, you know, in any relationship, a new relationship is different than a relationship we’ve had for a long time. A group of people who’s worked together for a very long time and knows each other really well, is different than a group that’s coming together newly or getting to know each other. Um, and a lot of my work these days in the corporate world, as you can imagine, is a lot of people interacting virtually and on zoom and coming here and coming there and halfway around the world. And so it doesn’t mean they can’t still connect and value each other and communicate effectively. It just means they have to be more intentional about it. And, you know, when you think about relationships, it’s like, where are we in our life? What stage of our life? What are we going through? And then, what is it that we really need and want in our relationships? Because it changes as we grow and evolve and as life changes.

Jean : Isn’t that true? What we needed in our 20s is not what we need in our 40s and our 50s. Yeah. And everything is relational. Relational. And that’s why I think your book is just such a great roadmap for even just marriages, like sitting down and asking some of the great questions you talk about. And, and I also love, like how all the pillars build on each other.

Mike: Yeah. thank you.

Jean : That safety is…

Alison : Yeah.. I like them all.

Jean : I do too.

Alison : Stop, Start, Continue.. I want to do that with my family. Like you know.

Mike: Oh. Yeah.

Alison : It’s great. Yeah.

Mike: Well that one, I mean, just for everybody listening like that one is about asking for feedback. What could I start doing that I’m not doing? What could I stop doing that I’m currently doing? And what can I continue doing? And when you think about, I mean, think about this in a relationship with a child, with a spouse, with a family member, a friend, a coworker, if again, it’s vulnerable because they’re going to say some stuff that you might not love hearing, but you go into that conversation with a little bit of a growth mindset, as we call it, wanting some feedback, and you give them an opportunity, you give them permission to share some things– proactively. And it’s like, oh, I could start doing that. I could stop doing this, I could continue doing that. And all of those things are really good. If we’re really committed to the relationship or to the group and wanting to show up again, we want to be ourselves. We want to be authentic. So we’re not going to do everything that they say necessarily just because they say it. But the fact that they can say it, okay, there’s enough trust and enough safety, and then I can consider it and think about, hmm, how could I do that in service of this person, in this relationship that really matters to me? You know, I mean, in some ways, you know, years ago, um, when Michelle, my wife and I first started dating, we’d been dating for a couple of months, and we were out to dinner one night, and she said to me she was sitting across from me at dinner, and she raises her hand, and I was like, yes… And she was like, I would like to be acknowledged. And I said, okay. For what? And she was like, well, I think it was like I got my hair done a little differently and I’m wearing… And I said, oh, that’s so nice. And then I felt bad, like, oh, did I do something wrong? And then she had me over at her apartment a couple weeks later, and she made dinner and we were eating dinner, and she raised her hand again and I said, well, I would like to be acknowledged. And I said, well, she goes, well, I, I was really nervous about this recipe and I didn’t know how it turned out. I think it turned out okay. And oh, it did. And then I was like, am I doing something wrong here? And she goes, no, here’s the deal. I’ve dated some guys in the past, and I would get really annoyed that they didn’t notice the things that were important to me. So I decided, with you, I’m going to train you. And I was like, what? And she goes, I’m just going to point it out. Like when there’s things that are important to me to be acknowledged, I’m going to let you know, is that okay? And I was like, actually, that would be really helpful because I tend to spend and waste a lot of time and energy, like trying to read your mind and figure out, right? Yeah. But I say that as like that can seem a little bit forceful or manipulative, but in a way, it’s like we’re all kind of training each other all the time.

Mike: This works for me. This doesn’t work for me. And if we can be kind about it but more direct about it, it actually makes it easier for us to be in relationship with each other. I will often train or not train as much coach leaders to do some version of that with their teams, like let the team know. Here’s what really works for me. Here’s what doesn’t work for me. And if you’re willing to take it to another level, be willing to ask them what fires you up, what inspires you? What motivates you? What drives you crazy? What irritates you? What pisses you off? Because I want to know. And the truth is, not everybody’s wired the same. So if you’re going to be an effective leader, I mean, think about parenting… It’s like the kids aren’t the same. They come from the same family, the same house, the same parents, and they show up really differently. And it’s like, what? And, you know, we never we never want to say to our kids, why can’t you be more like your brother or your sister? But sometimes we feel that way because it’s easier for me to parent your brother than you, and we don’t want to shame them, but it’s like, oh my gosh, they’re so different. I didn’t know that was part of the deal.

Alison : I think it’s amazing that the universe brought you the perfect teacher in Michelle.

Mike: Oh, gosh. Yeah. She’s amazing. I mean, like, all the time. I’m so grateful— I married well, and I’m very lucky in that regard.Yeah.

Jean : That’s wonderful,Mike.

Alison : So just as we wrap up, we have two quick questions. What do you think inside wink means?

Mike: Oh, I like that. I think it means…. Like, being kind to yourself and loving yourself.

Jean : Oh, Mike, I love that.

Alison : I love that. We have not heard that. That is beautiful.  It’s a reflection of you. And finally…

Jean : Do you like cake, pie or ice cream?

Mike: Oh, I mean, I like them all, but can I put a little ice cream on top of my pie? And then I’m in heaven.

Alison : That’s what I do. You want like, the turducken of desserts?

Mike: Yes.  And like apple pie a la mode, please. But, yeah, those are all, those are all really good options.

Alison : Thank you so much for your time.

Jean : You’re amazing man. Thank you for all the good that you are doing in the world to express yourself, communicate.

Alison : And help us do it.

Alison : I wish I had a corporation. We could hire him.

Mike: Well. Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate it… Thanks for having me on.

Alison : Okay. Thank you. Have a great day.

Jean : Take care.

Mike: Take care.

Alison : I really enjoyed him.

Jean : Yeah, you know, it’s so funny. I was listening to his audiobook, and so now that I saw him, actually… Because now I heard his voice, and then to hear his voice and see his face, it was great. And he..  honestly, Alison, he gave so many great, insightful, practical tools just to help any relationship.

Alison : Yep, And I love that um, if you really knew me? … These exercises that you could really do, even like at a dinner party if you were with close friends, right? Right. Like, you can really open up and that appreciation share…  yeah, I think I just think his pillars are just for leading a good life.

Jean : Exactly. And I for me, I noticed the shift between the of like a very old patriarchal way of leadership, and it seemed like he was, in a great way, introducing a more feminine… And I only say feminine because it’s more, um, welcoming rather than me, i know it all, let me tell you what to do…

Alison : And maybe a little bit more vulnerable.

Jean : Allowing vulnerability seems to feel, on the more on the feminine side, which which we all possess. So I think he, um, he was brilliant.

Alison : Yeah, he really was.. Very open. And his work is you know, I know it’s said for business– creating a team culture of high performance, trust and belonging. But how great if we all, in a large sense, felt like we were on a team?  like we were all really all in it together?

Jean : And it really starts with your family unit, I think, ou know, like start there. Yeah. Start on the small nucleus and then let…

Alison : Your friends start there. Right? Exactly. And that’s good. I, I think you and I are a good team.

Jean : We are a great team.

Alison : And that, and our friends are on our side and they’re a great team. We’re very we’re very lucky. And our families are.

Jean : We’re So blessed.

Alison : You know. Yeah. And these are great pillars.  So WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER, by Mike Robbins. He’s also the author of Bring Your Whole Self to Work, which I love. I love that title.

Jean :  and he has another one, um, Be you…. ugh, that’s  not right, but it’s something like be you..all the other ones are…

Alison : Oh, yeah.  What is that one? That’s so it’s it’s so perfect…. He’s really. Oh. Oh that’s right…. Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken.

Jean : Thank you, thank you. That’s it exactly. I mean, he was wonderful. And I wish him all the best.

Alison : Me too. So pick it up. Pick up the book, or just, you know…

Jean : You’ll enjoy it or listen to it on audio.

Alison : That’s right.

Jean : He has a great voice.

Alison : He does. That’s right. Have a great day.

Jean : Bye.

Jean : We’re gonna….

Alison : What?? hahah  what?? You’re trying to sneak something in?

Jean : No. You are.

Alison : I definitely am. So, um, um, we’re going to look back and at some classic interviews we’ve had. And this week, Jean is going to pick her favorite. And then in a couple of weeks, I will pick my favorite and we’ll replay them.

Jean : Yeah. And then we thought that would kind of give you an idea of what what really sparked our interest. I mean, they all did. This was hard actually.

Alison : Yeah. Because we really we had a big fight about it. And no, we didn’t because we could have done anybody.

Jean : They were… I really loved all of our, our interviews.

Alison : Yeah. People have been so generous with their time and efforts and our listeners, you guys have been great. So, um, Who have you picked for your look  back?,

Jean : So I’m going to say,  Anita Moorjani and why I picked her was two reasons. I just remember when her first book came out, Dying to Be Me… That title, I just thought, wow, that is so true. How much we ..how how so much fear sometimes limits us from really living our true, authentic life. So that book came out. I was like, wow. Then her next book came out,.. Sensitive is the New Strong and I again, and I could totally relate to that. Wow. Um, you know, to look at, you know, my own sensitivity, someone else’s sensitivity as a superpower rather than a challenge. So, um. And I remember that when we got to interview her, Alison, it was right on the.. It was shortly after Alex made his transition, and, um, I was so like, wow, we’re talking to Anita Moorjani. And she could not have been more lovely.

Alison : She was so gracious,

Jean : So Gracious, such a such a beautiful woman. And her message remains consistent, which is, um, you are the light of God, and you are important and powerful and and you do not …please let go of any and all perfection and live your joy.

Alison : Oh, that is so. That is so true and moving. And you summed it up perfectly. So if you heard it before, um, we hope you can sit back, relax and listen to it again. Maybe you’ll get something else out of it. And here’s our take two on Anita Moorjani.

Alison : Hello.

Jean : Hi, Anita.

Anita: Hi. How are you both?

Alison : Great. How are you?

Anita: I’m great. Thank you so much.

Alison : For joining us.

Anita: You’re so welcome. Thank you for having me on.

Jean : This is such a highlight because I personally have been following you, Anita. I’m Jean Trebek, and this is Alison Martin.

Alison : I’m Alison.

Speaker2: Anita, I just love you. And I, uh, when your first book came out, Dying to Be Me, just the name of that title, I was like, oh my gosh… Um, I know I’m going to love this…you know, the universe gave it to me. And I also am a big fan of Wayne Dyer.

Anita: Gosh. Thank you. I mean, you’re so welcome. It’s a pleasure. Of course.

Alison : Your life experiences have been so amazing and have shed such light for you and for others. I was hoping that you could just give our listeners, um, an idea of how your own near-death experience, um, affected you. And also, uh, we’re very interested in understanding if you had any perceptions as to where you went.

Anita: Okay. Um, so those are great questions. So first of all, how did the near-death experience affect me? It changed the way that I view life. It changed everything. I realized after my near-death experience that everything that I had been, um, brought up to believe, like, basically what we call our dominant belief system, the dominant paradigm. I realized that it was all wrong. And I started to understand why people were struggling and why the world, why people in the world were as unhappy and struggling. And I realized that everything that we have been taught is the opposite of what life or what what we really should be taught. It’s the complete opposite. Um, for example, the most dramatic thing was that my health, that the cancer just disappeared. Yeah. Completely disappeared. And so the biggest understanding I had was around my physical body and health and wellness, and I realized that it was my consciousness, my spirit, my soul that determines the quality of my life. But the way that we are taught to live is we look at our physical bodies and we work from the physical on our bodies. And even when we look out at the physical world, we try to change the world from the physical. We go out and we use our effort and our energy and we change the world. But my near-death experience taught me that actually we are constantly creating the our our health and well-being from the inside out. And we’re also creating our physical experiences from where we are at inside, from where we’re at, and how we perceive and believe life and how, um, uh, and how much energy we have and how much awareness we have.

Anita: We’re constantly creating our external reality, dependent on what we’re feeling inside. It’s the complete Opposite and inside out of what we have been taught to believe. That’s the first thing I realized and I thought, wow, what this dominant paradigm, this the culture we can call it, the cultural field is so strong, it’s so strong that those of us who see through it and realize, oh my gosh, but I can create something different for me. Um, it’s very challenging from the perspective that that we are the ones who get labeled as being delusional or woo woo or crazy, but in actuality, when we look at it, we’re like, once you see it a certain way, you’re kind of like, no wonder all that stuff is happening. They’re creating it because of the way they’re viewing their world, because their energy is so depleted, because they’re so drained, because they’re so fearful and they’re buying into all the fear and everything. So of course, it’s Manifesting this way in the physical. So it’s it’s so it’s a very strange thing that happens that really affects you at your core when you have a near-death experience where you can’t go back to living the way you used to, but at the same time, you know that it’s going to be challenging because most people won’t see the world the way that you see the world. That’s that’s what I’ve been going through.

Alison : I know Jean has a bunch of questions, but that just ignited something in me. Um, um, and I know I want to hear where you went, but, um. What what what what you just said in a time of the pandemic, right? Is, um, so significant. So, um, do do you think that sometimes the appearance of an illness or a challenge, physical or mental, appears…. you’re saying that you that collectively, the world has perhaps created this pandemic on a much higher level, right? Like our sort of collective consciousness? And then do you do you think sometimes there is also the side of that that means  there is something that we have to go through. Do you do you understand my question?

Anita: I think so. So I think although there are certain things that we as individuals have to go through, I think there is a lot of free will that we have like a lot uh, and we come here with a certain intention, like we’ve kind of come here deciding that we want to be in we want to be born in this circumstance, with this family, with with these intentions. This is the intention we have. Our soul comes here with these intentions of fulfilling certain things. But when we come here, we may lose our way, and we have free will not to follow our intention and not to follow our passion. And sometimes what happens is that because we want to fit in and we’re afraid of disappointing people, we tend to lose ourselves and we tend to lose our way. Um, but what you’ve said also about creating like maybe this, I think you alluded that this pandemic maybe or generally it’s something that we have co-created. So here’s what I actually believe. I believe that the way that we were going before the pandemic even started, before anything… So, um, I’m not going to get into the politics of it at all. I don’t, you know, I’m not even, I know that people really did get sick. And I’m not saying it’s not serious. I don’t even want to go down there. But if you think about the world and our race, even before the pandemic, um, we were already, I would say, heading down a road of destruction. Um, think about all the biggest governments of the world, all the biggest nations of the world. All of them were spending most of their money, their time and their resources on killing each other. They were more interested in killing each other than they were in feeding each other.

Anita: I mean, think about it all. Our biggest political leaders were more interested in comparing the size of their nuclear weapons, for God’s sake. Um, you know, so we were already on a very destructive path. And when you think about Even where all our money goes, it goes into weapons, it goes into, um, it goes into military. And and even when it comes to health care, we don’t spend money on actually caring for health. The money goes into pharmaceuticals. And so it’s a very, very imbalanced world. I actually felt when Covid hit, it brought the world to its knees. It’s the one single thing that really made everybody stop. It was almost like it was a divine intervention. Because if you noticed at that time, um, suddenly nature thrived.

Alison : Yes.

Anita: You suddenly had birds singing and pollution was gone and butterflies came out and flowers were blooming. It was almost like the earth, mother earth and nature and source and God. It was almost like they were thanking us. It’s like, thank you. We can breathe now. Yeah. Um, so it was almost metaphoric where people were wearing masks and were saying, oh, I can’t breathe with the mask on. But the earth was breathing. And so I kind of felt, okay. We did, at some level, bring this upon ourselves. And of course, I feel bad for the people who were getting sick. This is not to undermine them, but I am giving you more like a view from the other realm, a view from the death realm, looking at it from, from from above, from the different perspective, from the spiritual realm. Mother nature was thankful for that reprieve. It was also an opportunity for us to go in a different direction.

Alison : Yes.

Jean : Mhm.

Anita: And whether we are doing that or not remains to be seen. It’s a little bit iffy, but it was a tremendous opportunity. Um it was like a reset button. But yeah, but we haven’t necessarily been using that opportunity for the benefit and the well-being of humankind. But yeah, so so that’s kind of how I saw it that yeah, the Mother Nature was crying for that.

Alison : Yes. That’s beautiful.

Jean : Yeah, yeah.

Alison : Now the question, can you give us a small glimpse of any impressions of of a place that you had transcended to?

Anita: So what I believe is that when we lose our bodies, when we lose our physical bodies, um, our spirit, our essence is limitless. So it’s not a physical place that we go to, but we can literally be everywhere or anywhere at once. And that means even anywhere in time. We move forward in time and back in time and of course, out even into other planets. And it is so vast. And I think when we cross over in the immediate time that we cross over, we’re still unfamiliar. So we kind of stay close to what we’re familiar with and our loved ones. And this is what happened to me. My deceased loved ones came, became visible to me to help comfort me. But it felt as though that when we lose our bodies, we can even be right here and not be seen by the people here. So it’s not a physical place, but it’s like we enter another dimension where we could literally be anywhere at any time.

Alison : Mhm. I love that. Yeah.

Jean : So I don’t know if you know, but my husband passed away back in November and I, I always just say to myself I go, are you okay? And and I love you and um.

Anita: Yes.

Jean : You know, so I’m yeah, I’m….I feel him a lot.

Anita: Yes.

Jean : You know. And, um…

Anita: He’s here now.

Jean : I feel like he is.  You know, he always makes me cry, you know?

Anita: Yeah. so your husband is not suffering now at all. And first of all, my heart really goes out to you. I’m so sorry that he’s not physically here, but he, if you know, if you could hear him, he would want you to know that he is fine, that he is okay, he’s happy where he is and that he’s still with you. He wants you to know that. That he is still with you and still helping you on the other from the other side. And when we lose people, um, they are absolutely fine. But it’s of course painful for the ones who are here. And he… If you could communicate with him, he would want you to know, and and here’s the frustrating thing, when people cross over is that they’re actually trying to communicate with you. They’re trying to figure out a way to get their messages to you in a way that you would understand, and it’s not easy. So look out for signs.

Anita: Because he wants you to be happy. He doesn’t… He, um, of course you need to take all the time that you need to grieve, but just whatever you need. Like, don’t judge yourself if you grieve, but also don’t judge yourself if you find joy again, don’t feel guilty. He would want you to know that if you find joy, if you find joy with people, don’t feel guilty that you’re enjoying yourself and he’s not here. And if you find relationship again, don’t feel guilty about that either. It would make him really happy if you were happy again.

Jean : Thank you. Anita. Okay, so um, I really appreciate you saying that. And I’m sure because a lot of people did cross over.

Anita: Yes, a lot, many people.

Jean : So, um, I know I’m not alone in that, and that’s so helpful.

Anita: Yes. Especially during the last year…Yes a lot. Yes I agree.

Jean :  A lot of people.

Anita: Yes I know, and, um. Yeah. I’m so I’m so sorry to hear that.

Jean : Thank you. Anita..  it’s it’s so surreal to see you in like in my…. Now I know how people used to feel when if they saw my husband…. Like, let’s say Alex went to CVS and I wouldn’t think anything big of it because he’s just Alex, my husband. But people would go, “oh”, and I so feel that with you because I’m so listened to your books on CD and, um, thousands, like many YouTubes, your Facebook page and, um, so, so you have this great new book out, uh, “Sensitive Is The New Strong.” And I love that title.

Anita: Thank you.

Alison : Yeah. The book is so interesting. Uh, first of all, the story with your mother and the cookies, is just amazing to me because it is showing.. i’m just going to briefly-

Alison : May I summarize it?

Anita: Yes. Of course.

Alison : Uh, she was bullied as a child. This is for the reader. She was bullied as a child and um, uh, she tells her mom that they wanted these brightly colored cookies that you had at school, and she tells her mother, and, you know, I think your initial reaction must have been that your mother’s going to be like, go tell the principal, you know? But instead her mother packs her more cookies to give them. And, um, I can’t even believe you found the strength to walk up to them. First of all, I was like, go, Anita! And then, um and then you give them the cookies like I know you would like… I know you like these, so we pack some extras for you. And I thought that idea of facing, uh, fear or confrontation with love and giving and compassion was  beautiful, simple story about that. Have you been able to carry that through? Have you seen other instances of that in your life? Because right now we’re living at such a time.

Anita: We are living in such an interesting time. And I was just speaking to my assistant about it earlier. And here’s where I use that and I remind myself of this because my, my mom taught me this as a child. And and so now, even till today in social media, whenever somebody posts a really mean comment and, you know, social media is a minefield, it’s an absolute minefield. My response.. So in the in the moment when I read their comment, of course, being an empath, being a sensitive person, it I kind of cringe. It just really hurts because there will be mean comments and sometimes people are just downright- they can be really mean. Um, and so I tend to respond with a loving response. And so I wait until I’ve absorbed it, and then I tell myself, okay, that person’s hurting. They’re coming from a place of lack, and they’re coming from a place of lack of love. And so I do exactly that. Back to the the cookie thing, so I will, I have done this so many times where I actually go in there and I actually say something like, thank you so much for your comment. Um, and actually, that’s not the reason behind what I, you know, I give them a little explanation and I say, anyway, um, I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything. And so I send you love and sending you love and big hugs. And so I tend to do that. And then I let it go. And what’s been interesting is that there have been a lot of people who then respond and say, wow, I didn’t expect a response from you and I really thought you were la la la. But I realized that no, you actually are a real person and you’re a nice person. I’m sorry for my comment. So I have had people that actually respond back and have said that.

Alison : I love that. That’s such a great tact to take, you know, instead of doing this– having an open hand and an open heart.

Jean : And meeting the fear with love.

Anita: I’ve seen people who go back in and comment defensively or attacking back, and it just escalates the whole thing. And for me, I have to admit, it comes from a place of being very non-confrontational. I get very uncomfortable with confrontation. So and my mom sensed that when I was a child with these bullies. And so that’s when I learned she sensed that I didn’t like confrontation, and she actually showed me. She said, give them like, yeah, show them love and diffuse it.

Alison : This Book is so wonderful for these times I think.

Jean : And why do you think the empath is having a rise right now?

Anita: I think because it’s very much needed in the world today. It’s sorely lacking. Um, so with empaths, what makes them a little bit different, if you will, if you are an empath or just someone who’s highly sensitive… What this means is that you feel things very deeply. You feel it. And so your feelings, your emotions, your feelings are very strong and they’re very what I call very loud for you. So, um, and we and we don’t take that into account. We believe we are five sensory beings where we believe that our input comes in from, you know, from our sight, from hearing, from taste, from touch, from smell. But actually, for someone who’s sensitive, a huge part of their input just comes from feeling. It comes just from we feel the energies around us. We feel the pain of the world. We feel the pain of other people, we feel it. And sometimes that’s even louder than what we can hear with our ears or see with our eyes. That’s even that feeling is even louder. But we never take that into consideration. Not in medicine, not in schools, not in anything. Um, and so for an empath, living in this current times, what’s happening is, for example, on the news all the time, you’ve got that loud music and you’ve got that, uh, breaking news, like every little thing, every day, all day long is breaking news. Breaking news for someone who’s sensitive, they’re going to be anxious all day long. So I tell people, if you’re sensitive… Turn off the news. You know, and there was a time when you could find out what was happening locally without getting anxious. Not anymore. You turn on the news and everything is breaking news. Um, you you feel a little bit of illness.

Anita: You go to a doctor or something, and very often there’s a lot of anxiety around it. What drugs are they going to give me? What tests are they going to take? Now, the thing is, what I want, I want people to know is that if you are sensitive, very often your sensitivity can affect you so that it even affects your physiology, your biology. So many of your symptoms are because of your sensitivity, but that’s not taken into consideration. So basically, empaths and sensitive people are what I call sixth sensory beings because you’ve got this added sense, which is so loud but not being considered. But you’re living in a world that’s created by five sensory people, for 5 sensory people. So that’s why six sensory people are empaths or sensitive people have been struggling. But I think that now it’s the time for them to speak out. And so I myself have been encouraging sensitive people to speak out, because sensitive people have been hiding, because the world is tough and because sensitive people hide and empaths hide. What we find is that the loudest voices among us, like the ones who take on leadership positions and so on, are not sensitive or empathic, and people are growing tired of that. And if you want to change the world, if sensitive people want to change the world, they have to stop hiding, they have to start stepping up and taking leadership positions and voicing that what their needs are, instead of allowing, instead of hiding in the shadow and then saying, oh, this world is so hard, this world is so hard, we need to actually step up. And so I think that’s why you’re hearing and seeing more sensitive people.

Alison : I felt like what you just said so hits home. Because I feel like when you read this book, we have been told that some of the things that you talk about are called codependency, or they have some term for it that then you feel like, oh, well, see, there’s something wrong with that.

Anita: Yes.

Alison : And I in the beginning of the book, I was like, I had that inclinatio, to be more from the external trained perspective. Until I really got into your rhythm and could feel myself letting go. And then I realized, oh, see, that’s the training that you were talking about early on.

Anita: Yes.

Anita: In fact, this is one of the problems is that we have been, um, taught, just like you say. It’s been labeled codependency. So one of the things that highly sensitive people, uh, do or feel is that highly sensitive people can feel the emotions of other people. We can feel if somebody is in pain, we can feel if someone is struggling or suffering. And sometimes and because we don’t understand that, we can feel it. We sometimes mistake it for our own. We think that it’s ours. We can’t separate other people’s feelings for our feelings. And so what happens is that we then have this innate, just a reflex action of wanting other people to feel good so that we can feel good ourselves. So people who are highly sensitive and who are highly empathic and empaths have this tendency to want to rescue people because they’re so empathic to what that person is feeling. They want to jump in and rescue them so that they themselves, the empath themselves, can feel good because they need that person to feel good for them to feel good. Now, when you understand that it’s because you’re picking up their energy, you can look at it differently. Because one of the things that I have a problem with is all the traits of an empath has been pathologized, right?

Alison : Yes.

Anita: As being something wrong with them.

Jean : Right.

Anita: But the empath has this ability to feel for other people, and so they are the ones who are the least likely to cause harm to anyone. And I say, and one of the things I say, is the reason and this is my interpretation, the reason we feel so much for everyone is, if you imagine that each of us have an aura, an energy field around us…. Now imagine that if an empath, if someone is an empath, it could mean that they actually have a larger energy field. And because they have a larger energy field, they feel the feelings of anybody who enters into their energy field and almost mistake it as their own energy. Whereas a non empath or non sensitive person has a much smaller energy field, so they’re less empathic, they don’t feel what other people are feeling. And so their focus is always on themselves, on making themselves feel good. And they often it doesn’t occur to them on how it makes other people feel, because they can’t feel what other people feel. They’re not doing it deliberately, but they can’t feel what other people feel. But an empath can feel what other people feel. So what if I, instead of pathologizing the empath.. What if we turned it around and said, maybe the empath is the human 2.0, right? Maybe the empath is the one with the super strength, but our mistake has been in making them feel like there’s something wrong with them, right? That’s why the world has gone so crazy.

Alison : Right? You just gave me chills.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : That’s exactly. That’s such a great, great thing, Anita. Great way of looking at it.

Jean : And you expressed it so beautifully.

Alison : How do you, how do you get out of that pattern? Like how  can you help yourself or help someone that you might know is, you know, you might have you might intuit that they’re an empath. How can you help them be able to break that pattern? And also, is there room for boundaries?

Anita: Yes. So so first of all, um, you do need– when you realize you’re an empath at the initial stage, you do need boundaries. But what you will realize over time, as you strengthen in your knowledge of being an empath and as you strengthen in your knowledge that actually your energy field is bigger and you’re stronger and it’s your superpower. You will be able to actually get rid of those boundaries. You’ll feel the boundaries are restricting. So I always find that when, um, when people talk about boundaries, it’s because they’re in the early stages of being aware that they’re an empath, because once they learn that being an empath is a superpower, here’s what happens, um,… When you realize that, oh my gosh, this is a desired state to be, and you start to get more confident and you learn to love yourself and love the fact that you’re an empath, your strength, your energy field gets stronger and stronger. And instead of having boundaries to keep people out, what happens is as your energy field gets stronger, anybody that enters your energy field is uplifted by your very presence, so you actually can uplift people without even saying anything. Just your presence will uplift them, so you won’t need to keep people out. That’s what starts to happen.

Alison : I think that’s what happens with Jean. I’m just going to say it. I think people I’m just going to say it to everyone, anita– I think Jean, it brings tears to my eyes, i think Jean actually has that. I think she will, she meets people and you can feel the love and the uplift I so I can actually you….

Jean : and you too.

Alison : Can actually say that I’ve met somebody like that. So that’s very moving to me. Thank you.

Anita: I think both of you are like that. And yes, I can see in Jean and  i can see it in both of you. You’re both very uplifting because of the work you do. So yeah, it’s and it happens.. And and to your question that how do you help people eiyh that… So the gentlest way of helping people is by strengthening your energy and then bringing that presence to other people. That’s the gentlest way of doing it.

Jean : So how do you strengthen your energy?, Anita, because  you do a lot…

Alison : Yeah

Jean : You are a busy lady..Um, and….

Alison : You always look fresh and happy–.

Jean : And you’re down by the beach.  You know, I sort of know where you live…I live Studio City..

Anita: Oh, right. Not too far.

Jean : But, yeah. How do you strengthen?…

Anita: So it’s… There are so many things you can do. It’s important, first of all, to be aware that you are an empath and you have a tendency to absorb the energies around you. It’s really important to be aware of that. Um, and it’s important to be aware that as an empath, you have a tendency to give and give of yourself because you have a tendency to want to rescue people, but you also have trouble receiving. So it’s always awareness is the key. But the key is also to learn. What does it mean that I’m an empath? It also means and this is the hard part for empath. It’s simple, but it’s it also means realizing that not everybody thinks like you. For me, that was really hard because an empath wants to feel that everybody has good intentions. Everybody, um, you know, like, we just can’t believe it if somebody actually sets out to hurt someone else.

Alison : Right

Anita: Now Even though they may, it may be because of a wound from their own or trauma from their own history and their own childhood. Um, nobody is born setting out to hurt people, but stuff happens to them. But it’s not your job to try and fix everyone and fix everyone’s wounds. But you need to be aware that there are people who are wounded out there who will harm other people and who don’t think like yo.. And so so when I’m when I say that again, it’s not to contradict what I said earlier about increasing your energy and uplifting people. But I’m saying until you’ve uplifted your energy, because when you have uplifted your energy literally, when you’ve uplifted your energy, you can walk into a prison and you can stand there and you can show love to people and have them shift. You really can. And that is the aim I want to attain for empaths in this world, to know and acknowledge and embrace that you can make huge changes, but first you have to take care of yourself. So this is the hard part for empaths again. So the first is to realize that other people aren’t always the same as you. And until you’ve healed your own or become aware of your own wounds and your own trauma as an empath and healed those. Don’t keep going out and helping people until you strengthen your own energy, because while you’re still working on yourself, and if you don’t have awareness that you have a tendency to rescue people, what will happen is that you’ll keep rescuing people and you will attract a lot of people who don’t think like you and who will hold on to you just because you’re there to constantly rescue them.

Anita: They won’t want to be rescued. They will want to keep you in that place of just constantly being there for them. And you will find yourself just getting drained all the time. So this is the hardest part, as I said, for an empath is to take care of themselves first and to be aware that not everybody thinks like me as an empath, I am here to be a gentle soul on this planet. I am here to bring light to people. But in order to bring light to people and help people and rescue people and to uplift people, I really need to do all those things for myself first. And the more I do for myself, the more I will help the planet. Empaths tend to believe that when we do it for ourselves, we’re being selfish. They have trouble doing it for themselves because if they see someone else suffering, they’re like, oh, I got to go help them. So even if we have very little to give, we’re like, let me go and help them. And then we become drained and depleted again. We never get to that point of actually having the energy to go out and help the world. This is what brings empaths down. So I’m always reminding empaths, no, you have to do this for yourself because your default is to help other people. That’s your default. That’s who you are. That’s not going to change. So you don’t have to think about it. You don’t have to work on being more helpful or being of service. That’s who you are. What you have to work on is taking care of yourself, loving yourself, filling up your own cup, doing things that energize you, doing things that make you happy.

Alison : Even if that means maybe pulling back from some people that do drain you.

Anita: Yes.

Alison :  am I hearing that correctly?

Anita: You are. And you don’t have to judge people that drain you. And this is the other thing.. Is we don’t have to we you know, and this is where empaths have trouble again is that, it’s like, oh my gosh, who am I to say that they’re draining me? They need me. We tend to do that. We say that, uh, you know, that that I don’t want to judge them and say they’re draining, but no, we don’t even have to judge them. It’s more like you can say I am drained and it can even be your own child that drains you. It can be an aging parent or a partner who’s sick. You need a break. It’s human. It’s human to become drained. Even two people who love each other can become drained by each other if they spend too much time together. So it’s about removing the judgment and and just being honest with yourself and saying, yeah, this drains me. I need to charge my batteries.

Alison : Yeah, well, we have kept you talking way too long, but I just want to say for our readers that if if nothing else, just pick this up and gently, gently start reading it. The chapter on the ego is an amazing take on ego. I thought that was so worthwhile because you know, you’re right, it’s another one of the things.. The way we’ve been taught.

Anita: Yes.

Alison : About what this ego is. And yeah, thank you so much for writing this. It’s just it’s it’s come at a perfect time. So thank you.

Anita: Oh, you’re so welcome. Of course I love sharing my message. And I just want yeah, I just want empaths and all to just to know that they’re so valued in this world.

Jean : To own their superpower.

Anita: Yes… own your superpower.

Jean : You’re Amazing.  You and your husband–.

Alison : Yes.

Jean : I know he’s your your rock..

Anita: Yes.

Jean : And we sent him love as well.

Alison : Yes. Okay.

Anita: Oh…Thank you, thank you. And he’s right there behind the scenes. He’s waving.

Alison : Hello.

Jean : Hello, husband.

Alison : Hello, husband. We love you too.

Anita: Oh, thank you both so much.

Jean : Well, there you have it.

Alison : Yes, I thought she was just listening to her actually does elevate me and make me feel better.

Jean : Yeah. And how great to understand that being a sensitive person is not a weakness, but an actual superpower.

Alison : Right. That’s like you, though, right? Don’t you think you’re very sensitive?

Jean : I am, um. And I think you are, too.

Alison : Yes, but you’re nicer. Um, what was I going to say to you? Oh, you know what?

Jean : I shaking my head no now.

Alison : I know, but they can’t see that. And I thought that it was very important that she was saying that, uh, don’t categorize. And did she say pathologize these these, um, feelings and emotions that we’ve come –that our society right now names things and you begin to think that maybe there’s something wrong.

Jean : Right. So I think the key is don’t label yourself as something’s wrong just because you’re sensitive and And and love yourself. Love yourself first. Build that that self-love so strong that you know, like you light another candle.

Jean : That your candle light can’t go out.

Alison : See? Look…. Look how great you are? All right, well, I thought, I thought it was great. We hope you enjoyed it?

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : She’s a special woman. We’re so lucky we get to talk to these special people.

Jean : So true, so blessed. All right, well, have a great day.

Alison : Yeah. Expand your feeling auras. Goodbye.

Jean: Yeah, my mom totally hummed.

Alison: My mom would be like, mmmmm, mmmmm….I don’t…. Do you hum?

Jean: Sometimes I’ll hum.

Alison: Really?

Jean: Yeah. But my mom used to sing.

Alison: Really?

Jean: If the radio was on, which it usually was in our house, um, she would,.. She would sing along. And my mom has a has a very pretty singing voice.

Alison: Really? Yeah. We didn’t sing. We were Hummers.

Jean: Got it.

Alison: We were Hummers. Today, um, we’re, uh… Oh….What are you doing?

Jean: I’m snapping.

Alison: Yeah. Look. Woo hoo! Okay– and scene! Today, we’re, we’re looking back on some of our favorite interviews. Uh, the last time Jean picked for her is Anita Moorjani. And today…

Jean: Who are you picking?

Alison: Well, it’s very hard because, as you know, there are some people that I loved, but I today I think I’m going to pick Scarlett Lewis because, um, her son was murdered in, um, in, um, a school shooting. And the way she has turned her pain and that deep grief that is, you know, you can’t even fathom that. Right? Um, into the movement called the the Jesse Lewis Choose Love movement, I, I thought, I don’t know, there was something so moving about her to me and her strength and her efforts. And I just want that to be out there again because this… It’s got to stop. And she’s she’s on the path to helping it stop. Yeah. And so I don’t know if you if you any of you heard Scarlett Lewis before and we did it during Covid.

Jean: Right.

Alison: Which was interesting. So we were all on zoom together and, um, but she’s a beautiful light and has hope and desire to really change this dynamic that we find ourselves in.

Jean: Yeah. I love the title of her mission, Choose Love. Yeah. And she and she got that from her son.

Alison: Yeah. And it’s just such a beautiful story in that book. I mean, the whole thing, if you have time and over, you know, it made me just.., it was over the holidays, I think– and, uh, it makes you just realize…

Jean: You can choose a different way to look at something.

Alison: Exactly.. And and empower yourself in a way that can really make a difference.

Jean: So I love, I love that you chose her. Yeah. Great.

Alison: yeah- She was a beautiful interview, so I hope you, um, i hope you get something out of this.

Jean: Yes, I’m going to listen to it again.

Alison: So here’s a here’s Scarlett.

Alison: This didn’t start that day…. This was in you?

Scarlett: Yes. You know, it was interesting. I can look back and I can see the different things that happened in my life to prepare me to be able to respond the way that I did. I obviously didn’t know that those things were happening for that reason, but now I know why they were happening. Yeah.

Alison: Yes, exactly, exactly. Well, thank you for coming. Yeah. We’re just we’ve been talking about you all week, and I feel, um, nervous because, uh, you have Accomplished so much you have really accomplished and are doing so, so much. Do you? Do you see that in yourself?

Scarlett: Well, actually, what I’ve been able to do is catalyze a lot of other people. And so there’s a lot of people that are working on this together and a lot of volunteers. And, and I appreciate that. That’s it’s a movement. And it was a movement on purpose because we all are in this together and we all have to come together, take responsibility to be part of the solution. And we can do it. We can do it. We are doing it.

Alison: Yes, totally, totally agree with you. Um, your book is beautiful. Uh, your book is, your book is amazing and vulnerable. You know, it’s so fast, you can’t put it down. Like, you know, it’s just so vulnerable and beautiful and life affirming.

Scarlett: Thank you. It’s a quick read. All of the proceeds, 100% of the proceeds, go towards the Choose Love movement and help us do what we do.

Alison: That’s fantastic to know. So I want everyone to buy and read the book, and maybe you’ll tell me after we’re done where the best place to do that is. Okay. Yeah. And so thank you for that. It’s really just a beautiful gift to the world. Your book.

Scarlett: Thank you. You know, thank you so much.  I appreciate that I feel like, how could I do anything? But after, you know, what happened to my son Jesse, but also what’s happening to our children in the world that is preventable. And. And every school shooting is 100% preventable. You will not hear very many people say that. In fact, I’ve only ever heard one other person say what I think is pretty obvious. And that was Molly Hudgins, who personally disarmed a student who had come into her school. She’s a school counselor with the intention of doing mass murder. And she had personally disarmed him. But she said that every school shooting is preventable with one word. And of course, I was on the edge of my seat, and I was thinking, wow, somebody’s actually saying what I say. I know the word. I know the word. It’s love. It’s love. And she said, hope. And I thought about that and I thought, wow, yeah, she’s right, she’s right. Because you would never perpetrate such a crime unless you were hopeless. But of course, you need to have love. You need to have experienced love. You need to be loved in order to have hope.

Alison: Yeah, I think there.

Speaker3: Agreed.

Jean: Yeah. So, Scarlett, I just want to have a little background about you. Were you raised with a spiritual foundation? Um. You know, what was your faith like prior to to the tragedy of losing…. Well, that whole event. What were you. How were you moving through your life, prior? Just, you know, did you go to church? Were you just a woman that was such a champion for for love, you know  can you speak to that for a moment?

Scarlett: I was I was initially trying to think of what other people would say about me and kind of chuckling, uh, a champion of love. Um, but yeah, I was raised a traditional Christian. And so we, we did go to church more off than on. But I have a strong faith and I, I built upon that as I grew older and I continue to have a very strong Christian faith. So I do have that. And I think that that did help, um, when Jesse was murdered, I know where he went. I say now, like I with everything that’s happened, um, I don’t believe anymore is what I say, I know. Yeah. Um, so I know where he went, and so I, I do know that I will join him one day. And so that makes my time here, uh, a little easier. I can breathe a little easier. And I know that I have a purpose, and I didn’t know what my purpose was. I believe everybody has a purpose on earth, but I didn’t really know what mine was until this tragedy. And then it became very apparent to me. And so to be able to live your purpose is an incredibly empowering feeling.

Jean: Yeah. You know, I want to say that I admire how you speak of the tragedy that happened. You don’t say, well, Jesse was taken from me. You know, you this there was a serious mass murder. So you don’t sugarcoat the experience. And I love that you meet it with love.

Alison: You know, I remember the first time I was answering a question from a reporter. I was it was very, it was within the first couple of days. So I was at my mom’s house, and she was standing behind me listening to how I was responding to the questions. And I got off the phone and she said, uh, I don’t think you should use the word murder. It’s just so harsh, like…. And I’m like, really, mom, what do you think I should use? Yeah. And she was like, well, I maybe loss maybe. And I’m like, but I didn’t lose him. I didn’t it wasn’t like, oh, I can’t find him. He was murdered. I have to say it how it was. And she’s like, but it just is so painful to hear. And I said, you’re right. It is painful. And I think that’s important. I think we should be in pain when we hear that children are being murdered in their classrooms. And, you know, I was tragically, I say, blessed to have other victims family members to talk about this with early on. And we discussed how, you know, people would try to sugarcoat it and how we didn’t want that. Somebody coming up to you saying, oh, I’m so sorry for your loss. Well, I didn’t lose him. He was murdered. You know, I mean, it was it was something that, uh, at least the Sandy Hook families that I was in touch with were very adamant about. So, um, so that just kind of stuck with me because it’s the truth.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: Yeah, it’s very, very, very truthful. Um, I, I was so moved by your story about JT and, uh, the Rwandan genocide and how that was so moving to me because it was, um, so clear in that moment that if you help somebody else, somehow it heals your own heart. And, um, I feel a lot of love for JT, and I’m interested to hear how he is doing. And also, um, do you see that? Do you do you agree that if you look outward and really trying to help, it heals? And how how do you operate with that?

Scarlett: Absolutely. I mean, I know that from my own personal experience that everything that I do for others helps me heal as well. It’s not why I’m doing it, but it was an incredible consequence of creating this choose love movement. And everyone loves that story about JT. And I still use his example. You know, we have this powerful formula for choosing love that’s right behind me. And I still use his example in the Compassion in Action, the fourth character value, because he had to step outside of what was going on in his life and his own pain and suffering to help other people. And in doing that, he helped heal himself. And healing is an ongoing process. But but from what I witnessed from him, it’s the most powerful way to heal yourself is by doing for others, and he was a great role model for me because I saw it work with him.

Alison: Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to ask you a little bit, really, about the Choose Love movement and the programs and are some programs, um, based for at home. Can you just go into that a little bit so people don’t feel it’s just for schools?

Scarlett: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. No. The programming, the essential life skills that we teach are for everyone. Great. And, you know, I started in schools because I knew that if the perpetrator who had, you know, gone to Sandy Hook Elementary School, by the way, whose mother had taught at the school, who came back to perpetrate the crime, I knew that if he had had access to our programming, to social and emotional learning, that the tragedy would never have happened. And so I knew that I had to get this in schools. That was my original focus. And I remember, um, being speaking at a conference for trauma, and I spoke first and then this, uh, these organizations that were focused on trauma got up and they talked about how a lot of the trauma that children are experiencing start from the home. Mhm. And uh, that was the case for our shooter as well. And I had this lightning bolt go through me and I thought I’ve made a huge mistake. I should have started with programming for the home. Um so we, we put together programming that coordinates with what we’re teaching in schools, but for the home as well. I like using myself as an example. I was 44 years old when Jesse was murdered, and I did not have these essential life skills that I’m talking about. I’m talking about knowing how to have healthy Relationships and meaningful connections. Knowing how to manage your emotions, knowing how to make responsible decisions and actually grow and be strengthened by difficulty and challenges and roadblocks that you face in life. It’s pretty basic, but you actually have to learn these skills and tools.

Scarlett: They’re easy to learn and you can practice. Life is this beautiful thing. It’s not it’s not enough to have them up here. You have to practice them. Life is this beautiful thing that it gives you opportunities to practice all the time. But actually the first program I ever did was a prenatal program for pregnant mothers. Because when you’re pregnant and you are in a stressful environment, how you manage your stress will impact your babies forming brain. So in other words, this is through the study of epigenetics. If you the cortisol that you release will cross the blood brain barrier and release cortisol when you’re stressed out. And that will actually that can actually make your baby’s brain form with a smaller prefrontal cortex and a larger kind of limbic system, because you’re telling the baby from your reaction to the environment, this is not a safe place. So when you come out, you’re not going to have to think you’re going to have to run. And so I thought, wow, that’s incredible. Because I didn’t know that as a pregnant mother. So we created that programming first. I had an early childhood development specialist who’s become a very dear friend. Um, she created an infant toddler program. And this lot was based on my own life because I was a single mother. And so I’m taking my six week old babies and I’m dropping them off at daycare. And, you know, they may be loved, but those daycare providers may not understand the importance of that time period for brain development.

Scarlett: And so this is training for those those daycare providers. And then we go into a programming for pre-K through 12th grade. It’s scaffolded all the way up. In fact, we took the opportunity during Covid to go through all of our programming. We created new programming called Choosing Love in Our Brave New World. Because I was talking about this, this kind of post Covid world as a brave new world. So this literally is is programming created to meet kids and educators where they are and give them specific skills and tools that they need right now. And then that goes right into upgraded programming that is upgraded to reflect our current environment. And that’s pre-K through 12th grade. Then we have a wonderful program for homes and then also for communities because, you know, as I would be traveling around and if we had a celebration, say, in a school district that was Choosing Love, we would have community members that would come. They’d be, uh, people from maybe the United Way, the mayor, the chief of police, the Chamber of Commerce, pediatricians. And they would say, hey, we want to choose love for one thing. And how can we help support, choose love in the schools and the homes? And so we created this wonderful community program. In fact, we just found out that Nagoya city in Japan, um, which they’ve been paying for the translation for their schools in Japan, they are becoming a choose love city, and that’s a population of 2.5 million.

Alison: So that’s great.

Scarlett: Yeah, it’s growing and expanding way beyond what we ever imagined.

Jean: Okay, Scarlett, when you say a program, is this something that you sign up for? You get a packet in the mail. Is this something? You go online, put your email in, and you get a curriculum like what’s the the program?

Scarlett: Such a great question because it is a program. But program is a little bit of a misnomer. First of all, in order to access you can go to our website Choose Love Movement.Org you can register and then you have access to everything that we have at no cost. Um, it’s no cost because my son was priced out of the market of social and emotional learning. The district had spent so much money on a program because they’re very expensive that they couldn’t afford to train the teachers… So I was told the program never got out of the box. And that’s why I thought, you know what? This would have saved my son’s life. And this can reduce and prevent so much of the suffering that we’re seeing in our world, including mental health issues, bullying, substance abuse, um, so much anxiety. So it has to be it. For me, it had to be free because every child deserves access to this. Um, these are called essential life skills. They’re what they they can take with them for the rest of their lives. I mean, this is what universities and employers are looking for, right? Um, so so everything’s free. You can access everything on our website. And for schools, it does look like programming. So you you can go on and you can download. And there are a couple different ways that you can do it. You can either download the actual lessons or you can do them Online and and you teach them and it is it’s one lesson a week. But then there are practices because it’s not enough. I mean, you may have people that are out there listening saying, you know what, I know all of this. I have all these skills and tools in my head. But you have to practice them. You have to put them into use, and you need to be able to thoughtfully respond to what happens in your life. And that’s really what we teach. And so there’s something for everyone on the website, for sure.

Alison: That’s fantastic. Um, I, I have to be honest, I have a hard time sometimes choosing loving thoughts, and, um, I, I make my best effort, but I feel like sometimes that’s a challenge. Do you ever feel that way?

Scarlett:  don’t tell anyone…But I don’t always, choose love either.  hahah

Alison: That makes me feel a little better.  Thank you.

Scarlett: You know, I mean, we’re all a work in progress, but I will say that I’ve gotten to a point that when I don’t, it doesn’t feel good. And I know what I need to do to correct.

Alison: Right. You know there’s so much, uh, in the world, so much, uh, at each other, you know, uh, that it used to be that I felt like we could have a conversation about disagreements. And now it feels that it escalates very quickly. Uh, with political views, religious views, uh, every moral views, everything. Vaccinations, masks. I mean, like, everything just becomes a point of, uh, of seeming contention. I don’t believe that’s the truth. I think it’s fear that people are just a little afraid. Um, but in those moments, like in those real one on one world moments. Do you have a couple of tips? Is it like stop, don’t respond? Is it say, I love you. Like, do you have a couple of tips to to get through those moments?

Scarlett: I wonder how that would  go across during one of those… Someone’s yelling at you….Wait, wait, I love you.

Alison: All right, hold on. Hold that thought.

Scarlett: And by the way, I completely agree with you. I believe that everything is a choice that we make. And the basis of that choice is either love or fear. And the outcomes look vastly different. So whenever you have conflict, you absolutely are dealing with fear. And, you know, I can tell you what I try to do. I try to and I’m not always successful, but, um, start with being in the present moment. Be in the present moment where life is happening. The majority of our lives are not spent in the present moment. Believe it or not, they’re spent in the past mulling over what has happened or in the future, fearing for or planning for the future. Even in a conversation even like this, we can be hearing each other but already planning our response. And so you’re not really in the present moment. You’re thinking, what am I going to say? What am I going to say? And so when you’re in that moment when you have conflict, really remind yourself, okay, I want to be in the present moment. It’s so easy to get into the present moment. Just thinking that you want to be in the present moment helps bring you there. You can really focus on what the person is saying. The only objective you have is to listen.

Scarlett: Listen with compassion and then if the other person is heated. Think about what you said, that if they’re upset, a lot of times it’s really the basis is fear. And in that way, even anger, the basis of anger is fear. You know, if you if you know about the anger iceberg when someone is angry, it’s the tip of the iceberg. That’s what we see. We see their anger, but we know that there’s always an underlying feeling to that anger. And so we may not know what that is, but know that there is. And it could be fear. It could be overwhelm. It could be anxiety. It could be so many different things. But understanding that you realize that that you know that that that calls for compassion. And when you’re mindfully aware of that, you’re in the present moment, you’re you’re feeling compassion. It definitely helps you to to not escalate the situation. And hey, everybody has something that we can learn from. Um, think about you may not agree with 90% of what they’re saying, but find what you have in common. There’s got to be at least 10% of every conversation where you can find something in common, or there’s something that you agree on, and you can take that 10% and you can build upon it.

Alison: I love that. What we have in common.  Yeah. That’s true.

Scarlett: But but we can’t find that space when both sides are reacting and coming from their amygdala, their fight or flight part in their brain, because that literally cuts off our prefrontal cortex. So we’re literally at that point we’re not thinking rationally. So really we need to come to the present moment, take a deep breath. And really listen to keep our own prefrontal cortex is online. You want to be able to thoughtfully respond to that person, because if you start ranting and railing that that other person is looking at you going, well, they’re not using their emotional intelligence. And if you want to be the one with the emotional intelligence in the conversation, you will be the one that is thoughtfully responding and really present and really listening.

Alison: Yeah, I’ve also found if I if I don’t have to make feel that I have to make a point.

Scarlett: You’re right.

Alison: Be right, be right or be happy, do you know…

Scarlett: I’ve been there.

Alison: So yeah, I know it’s it’s totally…, Sometimes I think the worst moments are when you’re really, well, they’re not getting it, i’m going to change their mind, you know.

Scarlett: I’m going to teach them something that they don’t.

Alison:  they’re going to walk away and go, what was I thinking for the past 60 years of my life? You know, it’s just….

Scarlett: Exactly

Alison: I Don’t think it’s going to happen, but I think, I think they’re like, I know that the moments that I have met somebody with love, when I have been in a place of fear, uh, have has definitely worked out better. You know, I’ve never said to myself, oh, I shouldn’t have met them with love. I’ve never said that. You know, I’ve always said, oh, that worked out better. That was a better choice.

Scarlett: You know, I call the present moment the place with the fewest regrets.

Alison: Ah. That’s beautiful.

Jean: Wow….That’s beautiful.

Scarlett: Yeah. Because, you know, even raising my kids, I always practiced being present with them in the moment because I knew, you know, this is one moment that I will never get back with them. And I know that it goes by so quickly. And then, of course, you never plan for something tragic to happen. But when Jesse was murdered at six years old, I had very few regrets because I spent all of that time at least attempting to do my best to be present with them. And that is the way to live life with the fewest regrets. Even in my book, I have, the last time I ever saw Jesse, I i walked him out by the hand to meet his father, who was picking him up at the end of the driveway, and when I turned around to give him a hug, he had written on the frost of my car, I love you, and he had drawn hearts in all my windows, and knowing that that was one of life’s moments, instead of just saying, oh, thanks. You know, giving him a hug and sending him off, I ran inside, i got my phone, I took a picture of him and the message. I took a close up of the message and never in a million years was I thinking, oh, I’m going to get a picture of my goodbye message from Jesse because it was going to be gone in 15 minutes. It would have melted. But I did. And so I have that right.

Alison: That’s so beautiful. It’s so beautiful to me.

Scarlett: It’s, it’s the power of the present moment.

Jean: And you know I love, I love so much of what you’re, what you’re saying I don’t even know where to even begin. But when you said that that thought of anger. That that’s the, the thing how the mind if we can help people take a moment. There’s a thought of anger. so you know and get in preparation for our interview today, I thought, you know, I looked at a few, uh, Ted talks and just I was just so enamored by you. And I thought, wow she’s, um, she’s so in alignment with the philosophy of Science of Mind. Have you heard of that at all? Science of mind. So change your thinking, change your life. And you’re so in alignment with A Course in Miracles. I don’t know if you know that?

Scarlett: I mean, if you think about it, we’re in alignment with a lot because we’re talking about love.

Jean: Yes..And I thought, and so it came to me, I thought, look at how it, it’s like the, the epicenter of everything is love. You know, we think we need more money to, to to heal homelessness. We need more money or we need, but we just really need to remove the blocks of fear so that we can move and be in in love. So, um, how are you wanting to see the Choose Love movement evolve now? Because you’ve you’ve come a long way…. I mean, look at you…Like wildfire.

Scarlett: Yeah.  i thought you were gonna say wild woman. haha…

Jean: Well, that too. No, I was actually, going to say that , um, cigarette commercial. You’ve come a long way baby…like that.

Scarlett: Oh, yeah.  yeah. Virginia long Slims.. Right.  I guess they did a good job, right?

Alison: That we still remember that.

Scarlett: Um, yeah. So we’ve actually done more with social and emotional learning than anyone else within the past five years. Within the past three years, it’s absolutely incredible. By connecting with courageous leaders, that was the key. And we met a courageous leader in Governor Sununu, actually in New Hampshire, and he chose us as the backbone of his statewide school safety initiative. So previously we had thought about school safety as hardening schools. And that’s, of course, how we normally think we’re reactive. We focus on the negative. Of course we’d be. If you look at the pathway to violence, it starts with a grievance and ends in an attack. Of course, we’d be focusing on that attack end. But his school safety task force was focused on proactive prevention. They were focused on, you know, dealing with the aftermath as well, but also proactive prevention. And they realized that school culture is the most important part of school safety? Because when you have a loving, connected, compassionate school culture that can reduce and proceed a grievance from even happening, or if one does and they do, it gives students, it gives educators and students the skills and tools they need to manage that grievance before it escalates into an attack.

Alison: That’s amazing. And and that answers the question of, you know, I think, uh, someone that went through, um, a murder, a loss, um, um, being a victim, their mind might go to gun control, right?  I hear what you’re saying, that it starts, like, much sooner. And there is a more expansive way to deal with this,  horrific and result and that starts many…. But I did have a question for you. So if I wanted to bring that program into a high school, would they have had to have started at kindergarten or are they self like contained?

Scarlett: They’re self-contained. You can start at any time.

Alison: Okay.

Scarlett: Any time. Go online and check it out. Um, they’re easy to teach, easy to learn. The educator can learn right alongside the student. So there’s really no need for training. Although we do have free training modules online and everyone can be choosing love together.

Alison: What’s your dream?

Scarlett: My my goal in life is to make sure that every child has access to what we know is in their best interest, and that is Social and emotional learning. It doesn’t have to be choose love, but they need these essential life skills. And choose love is a fantastic way of doing that. In fact, up until Choose Love schools and mostly guidance counselors because this a lot of times this falls on the school counselors. And so they’re taking they’re kind of pulling from different things that they like and they’re putting it together. This was the first time that everything was in one place. And then aligned with the American School Counselor Association mindsets and behaviors for student success.

Alison: That’s fantastic. That’s great. Is there anything else you wish that our our watchers, readers, listeners would know or do?

Scarlett: Well, the amazing thing about the Choose Love movement is that this has been spread by word of mouth. And it’s pretty amazing to me that still, even in the era of social media, that word of mouth is still the most powerful way of spreading this message. And so I would ask everyone, I always say everyone can be part of the solution. I would ask that everybody that this touches to please talk about this, talk about it with your friends, go online and check it out. Um, talk about it. If you’re a teacher, go back to school and create, you know, a Choose Love champion group and just start teaching it and see what you think. You can see the benefits so soon after you start and help us. Yeah, help us because this is how we’ve been able to spread to over 10,000 schools in every state and 112 countries now. And counting is by people like you talking about this. And and by the way, having the courage those leaders out there that are listening to bring it in, to do something in a different way, to step outside of your comfort zone. I mean, we’ve had traditional programming, anti-bullying. We’ve had suicide prevention, substance abuse awareness. But based on the statistics, the growing statistics of all of those things, I would think that those anti programs have not been that successful. So then step outside of what you’ve been doing and try something that’s different. Try something that is proactive and preventative. Try something that addresses the cause as you you were indicating the cause of the problem because by the way, you can’t solve the actual problem unless you’re addressing the cause. And that’s what the Choose Love movement does.

Alison: You are amazing. And I just feel like this has been such an honor. You know, I feel like you’ve lit a little fire, so thank you so much.

Jean: Thank you so much. You are amazing.

Alison: I just cry whenever I listen to this woman. Right?

Jean: Yeah. I could listen to this interview many times. She is. Talk about inspiring. Yeah. I mean, I don’t know how well it talks about the power of love, but how she, she’s just such a courageous and wonderful human being that she’s not letting the circumstances get in her way of choosing love.

Alison: That’s right. And becoming a leader and becoming someone that’s going to make a difference in her discussion of finding her life’s purpose and that this actually strengthened her faith.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: As opposed to.

Jean: Diminishing it and and becoming a victim. And I mean, if you need a little boost right now in your life. Please take a moment and listen to this interview.

Alison: Right? Because she is so the strength that she shows us and provides is just I don’t know, it just was an honor to talk to her. Right? Like a true honor. Yeah. And I just, I just I love her. Yeah. I feel love for her. Yeah. Don’t you?

Jean: I do indeed.

Alison: You know, so we hope that that was something that gave you, gave you pause and gave you a moment of reflection. Because we know for us it was very it really stuck with us as interview for a while. Yeah. We hope you have a good day.

Jean: Have an awesome day. Yeah. Take good care.

Alison: Okay, bye.

Alison : Okay.

Jean: I haven’t seen you in, like, two weeks.

Alison : Yeah, I know, because you went to the East Coast, for your nephew’s…. what would you say that was – a graduation?.

Jean: Graduation from the marine, yeah, from the Marines, which was, uh, in Parris Island, South Carolina.

Alison : Wow.

Jean: right after all those hurricanes.

Alison : Yes. God bless those…

Jean: God bless all the people.

Alison : And, um… And that must have been…. you didn’t get any of that though there?

Jean:  no, no there were no, we didn’t get any rain. It was windy. And you could feel in the sky like an ominous type feeling. But no, we got no rain. And I was though, thinking about all the people and, you know, that have been affected by the hurricanes.

Alison : Love out to my family that was in Asheville, are in Asheville. And how shocking and brave they are. And they’re all coming together and just the sense of community and the love and just know that we’re sending you so much love and so much from all over. So just thinking about you all the time.

Jean: Yeah, that is true. We are.

Amy : And today we’re having a good interview with the woman that actually interviewed us!

Jean: That’s right, doctor Amy Robbins. And she she’s quite, um- she’s very interesting to me. She’s a psychologist, and she’s also a spiritual intuitive. So she definitely is a bridge between the spiritual and the scientific world. And I think she has a lot of beautiful wisdom. And I can’t wait for our interview.

Alison : It’s going to be exciting. She’s  so interesting and smart, and it was fun to get  to know her the other way—Like she talking to, asking us questions. And now we get to to have the opportunity to do it right back.

Jean: Right. And I think one of the gifts that she brings is her her depth of her questions.. Thought that was great.

Alison : She’s great, so here we go.

Jean: Okay.

Amy : Hi.

Alison : Hi again.

Amy : How are you guys?

Alison : Good. I feel like… I feel like we’re friends, and we should just do this once a week.

Amy : I know, I know, that’s what I said after I got off…. when I did my pre-recording, I was like, I feel like I got off my just got off with, like, my two good girlfriends.

Alison : Exactly.

Jean: So true. Oh, it’s so great to see you, Amy.

Amy : You, too.

Amy : How are you guys?

Alison : We’re good.  It’s chilly here.

Amy : Oh, I know here, too. I just cranked up my heat.

Alison : Really?

Amy : I think you expect that here, not there.

Alison : Yeah, I know…We have different ideas of chilly. If it goes into the 60s here, I’m cold.

Amy : Now –  yeah, that’s where we are. About 60s.

Alison : Really? ,Yeah, it’s it’s funny, you know, it was funny to, um, have you interview us and then now me, like, really listening to all your podcasts and getting to know you more. And I was like, and I was saying to my friend, I was listening with my friend Suzanne, and I was like, um, Suzanne says she’s very serious. And I said, no, no, not at all. She’s she’s just as goofy as the rest of us. Do you know, because on your podcast, you’re, you know, really right there and so present. It’s such a such a great podcast.

Amy : Thank you. Thank you. Serious. I know it’s so funny that it’s funny. I did a, um, zoom last night for my, like, Patreon supporters, and this woman was like, oh my God, I can’t believe it’s you. I hear you. And I’m like, it’s me. Like. Yeah, it’s me. Like I’m just me.

Alison : Exactly.

Jean: But I think that that is so true that people, um, people that they either hear on audio or certainly see on TV or on a screen a movie person, and when they see them in real, like in life, it’s, oh my gosh, you really eat chicken and you really, you know, blow your nose in person..

Amy : You poop too?  hahah

Jean: You poop too? hahah

Alison : Those are the three things that are life….chicken, nose blowing and pooping. And then then.

Amy :  Totally right.  That’s all.

Jean: I remember someone came up to me and they said, wow, what does your husband eat for dinner? I said, chicken, rice and broccoli.  The same that we all eat.

Alison : Little cards with questions on them…

Alison : But that’s too funny. Well, thank you for doing this with us.

Amy : Oh my god, I’m so excited.

Alison : So tell us how you actually began your journey. Because you’re a very interesting mix of science and spirituality.

Amy : Yeah. So when I was 18 years old, my aunt died. Um, she was waiting for a kidney and pancreas transplant. She had juvenile onset diabetes that, um, she had, she had the– they used to radiate your tonsils when you were young. Um, that was like the treatment for it. And as a result of that radiation, she developed an autoimmune disorder that then they think turned into diabetes. And my grandfather was a pediatrician. So, as you can imagine, like this was this was really horrifying for him at the time, because I think he blamed himself for what happened to her. Um, but she was waiting for a kidney and pancreas transplant, and in order to receive the transplant, they needed to, like, make sure that all, everything else was going to be, all of her organs were okay. They had found out that she had had several heart attacks, and so they needed to go in and repair her heart in order for her to move up on the transplant list. And when they went to prepare that, when they went to repair her heart, they realized they couldn’t get it started again. Um, so she died on the table. She was my age now, which to me is like it… It brings it to a whole different level of of how young she was and how much more life she had ahead of her. She had two young kids. My cousins were in, um, high school and college at the time and I… It really shook me to my core.

Amy : She was like a second mother to me as well. Like, she spent a lot of time at our house because she had gone through a really challenging divorce… And my mom was her, i mean, she was her everything. Like, my mom helped her through everything. And so it was really crushing for me, for my family. And it was the first out of order, like, close to me, what I call an out of order death. Right? Like, she was she was young and she had young kids and and I, I struggled with now kind of in retrospect, what I realized was my grief and how it manifested was anxiety, and it was anxiety around what my life was going to look like. And, and would I be able to kind of support myself because she, in her, and this might be getting into like a lot of details, but she and her marriage…. Um, she had stepped away from working and she had, like her husband, was very successful, and then they went through a really terrible divorce and she kind of was left with nothing. And so she had to go back to work and she didn’t really have a career. So she went back to work. And the conditions at work because of her diabetes resulted in like illness, you know, the the circulation issues and like all of these problems.

Amy : And so in my kind of psyche, how I made sense of it was like, if I can’t rely on myself, then what will happen to me? And so it really spun out into a lot of anxiety. And just when I went to get my first, like when I was applying for jobs in college, I had my first panic attack because I was getting rejected and rejected and rejected. And I then realized I needed to go to therapy, which I did, and but never really connected the two pieces together that that my anxiety was a lot of grief and a lot of the kind of sense that I had made around what her death meant to me. Um, and so fast forward to graduate school. I mean, I sunk into a pretty deep depression after that. I was working at a job I was not happy with, um, living at home after college, I ended up quitting my job, waiting tables, and I had a great I mean, I went to the University of Michigan and I was like, waiting tables. And so there was that dissonance within me too like, how did I have this great degree, and not to minimize… I mean, I think waiting tables is actually probably the hardest job, and I think everybody should do it because it really gives you an incredible peek into..

Jean: Service.

Amy : Yeah, yeah, service. And I mean, I still carry in my wallet to this day a person who’s nice to you, but not to the waiter, is not a nice person.

Jean: Totally.

Alison : Yes, totally.

Jean: It’s those little things.

Amy : Yeah. And it was a insight into humanity. At that time, I decided I wanted to go back to grad school. I was volunteering at Children’s Memorial Hospital here in Chicago and decided I wanted to go back to grad school for psychology. And about a year and a half into my program, I had my first visit from my aunt. So it was around the time of my cousin’s wedding. I did not know what a visit was. I did not know that you could be visited by loved ones. I thought it was a dream and my aunt, it was right before my cousin’s wedding, so my aunt came to me and she showed me an image in my mind’s eye of my mom standing at the kitchen sink in the house I grew up in, and she said to me, uh, tell your mom not to be upset. I’ll be at the wedding. And then I saw another image of my uncle, her brother, and she said, let him know that I see him. I hear him when he talks to me, when he’s out pushing the stroller and talking to me. I had a much I have a much younger cousin and I kind of woke up and my husband, I turned to my husband and I said, Aunt Linda was just here. And he was like, what are you talking about? Interestingly, my dog also was barking at that time, so I felt like there was some energetic shift that happened. And I called my mom and I said, mom, I had this crazy dream last night with Aunt Linda, and she told me, you don’t need to be upset. You don’t need to cry. She’ll be at the wedding. And my mom started crying and she said, I was standing at the kitchen sink last night, and I was talking to her and I said, I can’t believe you’re not going to be there. I can’t believe you’re not going to be at this wedding.

Alison : Wow.

Amy : And then I called my uncle, who’s an orthopedic surgeon. So these are not exactly people who are of the mindset that, like, the soul exists and consciousness exists across space and time. And I told him the same thing, and he said, well, when I talked to, that’s when I talked to her, when I’m outside and I’m walking and I’m pushing their son in the stroller, and that’s when I connect with her.  And I was like, okay, there’s something here.

Alison : Yeah.

Amy : But I really didn’t know. I mean, now mediumship is like in the zeitgeist. People talk about it. It’s not, it doesn’t feel like some closeted thing. But then, here I am in graduate school for psychology. And I have this experience, and I’m not sure what to make of it or how to understand it or how to conceptualize it. Maybe it was just a dream, but there was something about it. Because if you’ve had a visit, you know it’s not a dream. It is as real as you and I are sitting here talking. That is how real it is. It’s linear. It doesn’t have those like amalgamations of people who represent other people who look like your mom, but really they’re your sister, your whatever it is. And I reached out to a professor and who taught indigenous healing practices, but was also really grounded in traditional psychotherapy. And I told her, I had this experience, what happened? And she said, I think it was a visit, and I think you’re opening up to something. And at that point I was like, okay, like, I didn’t really know what to do with that.  She said, well keep talking to your aunt. And I’m like, okay, this is like a little bit crazy town for me. What do you mean? Just keep talking? She’s like, just talk to her. It takes a lot of energy for the spirit to come in and you have to meet their vibration. Now, these words to me were, like, completely foreign. I was like, what is vibration and energy like? None of that was anywhere in my zeitgeist. Anywhere. And so I did. I started talking to her and I said, you know, show us that you’re going to be at the wedding and give us a sign. I mean, I read like Sylvia Browne. I think my professor told me to read. And I just started talking to her and I said, you know, show us a sign. And my aunt loved Neil Diamond. So I said, show us Neil Diamond. And we picked up my sister from the airport, and my sister got in the car and immediately a Neil Diamond song came on the radio and I was like, all right, well, this is all…. And everybody at the wedding was like, is she here? Is she here? Like, is Aunt Lynn, do you feel her? And I didn’t know anything at this time. I mean, I just had this experience and and I really moved on after the wedding, I was like, okay, I had this experience and I didn’t think anything of it.

Amy : And then my papa died, and then it happened again. And then, um,  similar thing…. I had a cousin getting married and he came to me with some information from her. I shared it with her. It was accurate. And then it started happening with patient’s loved ones. Where, I start, it was always in this dream like state, but it was always early in the morning before I woke up and they started bringing me messages and I was like, okay, now this is like, this is getting a little this is out of my wheelhouse of my own family, right?—when other people’s loved ones are coming to me and my patients are not coming to me for that purpose. What do you want me to…. I didn’t know what to do. And so at that point, I went back to this professor who had given me the name of a medium, and she was like, I think you need to go and work with this person and see, like, get my lights in my house were going crazy. My husband was starting to be like, I don’t believe in any of this, but I don’t understand how to explain this.

Amy : And yeah, and that was really kind of these, these parallel path of journeys where psychology was very much driving me. But the spiritual side of me was kind of quietly closeted and speak –like going through all of this behind the scenes. And as my life unfolded and I had young kids and everything, like it would get pushed to the side, but it would creep back in…. And finally I, I listened and I explored mediumship and I did what I called my medium internship because I’m such an academic that I was like, I cannot just like say I’m a medium—so I like studied with her for two years and did readings for friends and family and then was like, okay, that’s maybe not for me because I really enjoy doing like really deep work with people. I’m a long term therapist. I work with people for many, many years, and it felt like not quite enough. And then I had this experience where a friend came over for a reading, and I did this reading for her, and at the end of the reading I said, I’m seeing this ring, this gold ring with a blue stone. And there were other things that I’d said in the reading. And she was like, yeah, that could be my father in law.

Speaker3: And so she’s like, yeah, my father in law didn’t have this a ring. And she goes home and she tells her husband and he says, my dad did not wear jewelry. It just was not his thing. And then he goes home to his home that he grew up in that next weekend. And as he walks in the house and his mom comes out and she says, I just found this ring of your dad’s, I think he’d want you to have it. And it was the exact ring that I had described in this reading. And that’s when I was like, okay, there’s like even more to this. But I was I sort of likened myself to like to Goldilocks, like the, you know, one thing was too hard, one thing was too soft. So I’ve been trying and I think I’m still kind of trying to find my like, where, where do I land in all of this? What is the sweet spot for me? Where’s the glass slipper that feels like it fits my foot? Because I don’t see myself as a medium. Because I really feel like I there are some amazing, amazing mediums out there. Amazing. That’s not me. Um, but the therapist part of me just can’t not embrace this part of myself.

Alison : Right…do you find, like, with those patients where you would get, like, a message–  what would you do?  would you say the message?

Amy : So I wouldn’t say the message, but I would try to kind of weave in questions that would, like, validate whether or not it was true. Like the best example that I have of this is I’ve had a couple of times where I’ve felt like I’ve, um, seen or had hits of past lives of patients where I get a very clear image of what it looks like, where they were. And that’s a little bit easier for me to kind of maneuver around, because I can use what I’m seeing and say, like, I feel like you felt like, um,— You were a lady in waiting. This was a specific example of someone who felt like they were kind of always waiting for people. Um, and so I would say, like, it felt like you were, you’re a lady in waiting. And the image that I had in my mind was, was this woman in kind of like a brothel, like waiting for the men, not a lady in waiting, but like a, you know, a brothel. Like waiting for the men to come in. And whenever they came, it was like there for her. And when they they left, it was like she was forgotten about. And then I would see what the response was to that. And so if the response was like, oh my God, yes, I’m like, okay, so maybe there’s more now, do I know for sure that was the past life?

Amy : But there’s something that resonated with her soul in that moment. The same with I’ve had. Sometimes I’ll sit in meditation and just say like, okay, where is the stuckness for this person? Like, help me see where along the way they got stuck. And then I’ll bring that into the session. Not saying like, oh, I sat in meditation and I saw that maybe you were stuck in this. Although my patients now know this about me so I can be a little bit more free with it.

Amy : But I would say something like, you know, did something happen around the age of ten where maybe you were feeling very alone? And then I’ll see where they go with it. And so it’s more woven in that way rather than like your dead cousin’s here talking to me. Although I have done that, too, if it comes through and it’s very strong. Some people’s loved ones are a little bit more, are a little bit pushier than others. And so I’ve had some that have been quite pushy and I’m like, I, I’m sorry, I can’t, I actually can’t continue like doing the therapy right now. I feel like your so and so is here. Are you okay with me sharing information they might be bringing forth?

Jean: And what’s the usual response? Do they say yes?

Amy : Yeah.

Jean: Because I think, Amy, it’s it’s such a beautiful gift, if you will, that you offer some additional insight to your patient’s quest for releasing trauma, anxiety, whatever the the thing is. Um, I think that’s just so beautiful. And, um, do you think this is something that any of us can learn to talk to our loved ones that have gone beyond?

Amy : Absolutely. But I think how we think about I think sometimes we get hung up in how we think about what that communication is going to look like. So for some, it might be that you clearly hear those messages, but for others, I was just in a call. I’m doing a course right now, and we were talking about how information can come in, and one of the women in my course was saying that she opened up this book and she was reading the book, and she realized there was something in the book that really resonated with her… And it’s like the messages I feel like can come through in all kinds of different ways. But what happens often is we are so unconscious in our lives, and we are so not present that we don’t see those messages when they come through. And I think so many people think, I want to feel like I feel like you and I right now, we’re sitting across talking to each other, and it’s not…. It’s for some people it can be like that, but it doesn’t mean that’s the only way to have that relationship anymore.

Amy : And I think that people need to be open one, it’s a muscle, and I think the more you use it, the the stronger it gets. And I always equate it to like there’s Michael Jordans, right. Like Michael Jordan is the best, one of the best basketball players of all time and had some natural talents. But there are other basketball players who are really, really good and practice and practice and practice. I would never be a Michael Jordan of mediumship. I just it’s not there for me. But if I practice and when I’m more present and when I’m meditating daily and when I’m connecting daily, that I know that that switch goes on much easier than when I’m like embroiled in the, you know, who’s going to get dinner on the table and, um, who’s picking up my son from football practice today, right. Yeah. So like those, you know, those daily life, uh, experiences for me, take me out of that connection sometimes, which can be a little bit frustrating, but I can’t always live in that space of like, expansiveness, despite what I wish I could do.

Alison : So you talk to so many people on your podcast about this and so, so many…. unbelievable…I just listened to the  one on sacred geometry last night.. Like it was fascinating. But anyway, um, what do you think happens after we transition? What do you what do you think is going on?

Amy : I believe that our consciousness still exists. So that energy and this is, you know, really simple or not, simple physics and quantum physics. Um, but the research now that’s coming out, and I can’t explain it all beyond how my mind can how I can wrap my mind around this. But when I listen to it in the moment, I understand it, but I can’t regurgitate it. The Quantum physics, the quantum entanglement, the, um, like what they’re starting to find around the consciousness of more than just the human brain and the human mind is, is, frankly, mind blowing. And so I think that and we have, you know, it’s so interesting that people still dismiss this because this is not woo. There is research behind this. Bruce Greyson out of University of Virginia. Um, Ian Stevenson like they have done research with people around near-death experiences, past life experiences, I mean, kids, kids who say things and and it’s validated and checked out. It’s like, okay, but No. Well, how do we, why do we choose not to… Why is that not considered real research? Because we can’t replicate it in a, in a, in a setting, in a, you know, in a science scientific setting?  But it’s anecdotal and so many people have similar stories. It’s just amazing to me that we continue to refute it. And it makes me wonder what people are so afraid of?

Alison : Yeah.

Amy : What would it mean to to acknowledge that?

Alison : Exactly.

Jean: That reminds me of Eben Alexander, who was a brain surgeon and had had his near-death experience and said, no, this is there’s so much more going on. But I you know what? I think it is permeating out. I think people are meditating more people are starting to maybe-there is something more? And and I think these kind of conversations really help dis dismiss or kind of soften the the fear that many people have around death. And um, and it’s not you know, it’s so sort of ingrained in our system, in our DNA, you know, how we feel and celebrate or just fear death.

Alison : You know, I have a friend who’s in stage four cancer. And it was interesting because she’s like, you don’t believe how few people want to discuss death.

Amy : Mhm.

Amy : Including doctors.

Alison : Yeah.  It’s all very um, we’re going to get through it this and that and, and so they, they go to this death workshop and people with people and discuss it because we’re all going to go through it like, what is that like from, from a, from a more therapist point of view, is it just a fear or what is that like?

Amy : Yeah, I mean I think it’s an anxiety. I think it’s a fear of the unknown. Um, I find it to be like, is fearing death. It can be so paralyzing because really, what fearing death, I think does, is prevent you from living your life. And when I think about, I hate to talk about Covid, but to to talk about Covid for a minute… What was at the core of that was such an intense fear of death, right? Like every we were washing groceries, because there was like, this is this is what people kind of went to at the time because they were so afraid of dying. And yeah,  I’m afraid, frankly, of not living.

Alison : Right.

Jean: I think that’s so great that you say that because that’s so, so true. Um, I read I don’t know where I read. It could have been A Course in Miracles because we we all talked about A Course In  Miracles when we were being interviewed by you, Amy, but the very heavy identification that we’re bodis like that –So I think it’s like opening up to… No,  I have a body, but I’m actually this eternal presence of love and and everything.

Alison : What do you mean, though? What do you mean, though? Like by saying you’re afraid of not living.

Amy : What do I mean?

Alison : Yea..

Amy : Personally I don’t want to be on my deathbed and look back at my life. And this is what I think death is our greatest teacher… I mean, this is the concept of, “Memento mori” , right? That, um, I want to make sure that the people that I love , knew I loved them, that they felt that every day that anybody who came into my presence,  was cute today– I talk about this a lot on my podcast, like, I’m kind of probably, because I was a server, and I knew what it was like… But we are all equal. I was at the grocery store this morning and I went to get my meat from my meat guy, who I see every Sunday. I’m like religious about. It’s like my church Sunday morning, 8 a.m. I’m at the grocery store and the guy says to the person who’s helping me, he’s like, are you helping my best customer? And I was like, you mean your favorite customer? And he’s like, my favorite customer because it’s about like, I see you, right? I want people who I’m with, who are with me to feel seen by me, to feel loved by me. That is an expression to me of living, of/from my soul.

Amy : I want to travel. I want to see different places, I don’t want to get to… I mean, it could be tomorrow. Look, my aunt died at my age, and I want to know that I want to be off my phone more, which I’m still working on, because if I died tomorrow, that would not be something I would be happy about, is how much I’m on that stupid device. But, um, like that, that I want to have lived– like I want my life to feel every single day – full. And how I express that, i mean, even just this conversation for me, like, I know I will walk away from this feeling like, just like I did when I interviewed you. That was amazing. It was such a deep, beautiful connection. And I carry that with me. And so I want people to look at their own lives and determine what that fullness would feel like to them. Because if they were to die tomorrow, if they and I do have like a contemplative death, sometimes I’m I wake up in the morning, I’m like, oh God, enough with the death.(haha) Like sometimes like the first thing on my mind. And I’m like–oh God, can’t I just like, wake up in the morning, (hahah)  but it does, um, it does shift how I live it.

Amy : It really makes things more, everything feels more vibrant.

Alison : Right.

Jean: That’s so beautiful. Yeah. I love that you say that. And it’s. It’s true. We don’t know when we’re going to leave our bodies. And so everything becomes very precious. And to your point, you can almost go like, oh, my God, I’m. I’m making way too much…. Like, I gotta chill out..you know.  And I love that. Can you tell us what you do in the morning?

Alison : Do you  have practice?

Amy : Oh, gosh. I wish I had, like, a good answer. It depends on the day.

Jean: Okay. That’s that’s a great answer.

Amy : Yeah. It really depends. Like, some mornings I wake up and I’m like, out of bed and at the gym and other. More like today I laid in my bed and I put on my morning meditation, and I do my meditation before I do anything. Um, some days I’ll pull a card or two, I’ll sit in meditation and pull a card. Um, some days I will just get up and make breakfast for my kids. Um, so. Or their lunches or whatever it is. Although my husband’s been doing a lot of that. Thank you very much. So, um, but I think it really, you know, I really try to tune in and ask myself, what is it that you need today? Because I think when we get, like, dogmatic about I have a meditation practice for sure. But I think when we get so dogmatic about, like, it needs to be every day at this time, it starts to feel like a chore rather than am I listening to what I need today? And sometimes I’ll sit down and meditate after my kid. You know, my kids will leave for school and I’ll sit down for 20 minutes. I’ll meditate, and then I’ll get in the shower to get ready for work, but it’s like I try to tune in to like, where is the where am I feeling pulled and what am I feeling pulled for? And sometimes in the middle of my day, I’ll. I’ll hear you. You you best sit down and meditate right now, right. Um, it’s like almost a pushy demand. And I’m like, okay, I’ll just go and like, or I’ll sit here and I see my one of my meditation chairs and I’ll like, feel like it’s like pulling me in. And that’s when I’ll be like, okay, I’ll go and sit for a few minutes.

Amy : Come, come. hahah–We have stuff. We have stuff to say to you.

Alison : Exactly.  Do you hear us?

Alison : Do your kids know about your, um, intuitiveness.

Amy : Yeah. They don’t really give it much thought. I think my daughter, um, my daughter’s friends were way more into it than she was. And so last summer, they were like, come tell us your stories, because I did my first, like, official talk at, um, and I did it on signs and synchronicities and intuition. And a couple of her friends moms were part of like, the community group that organized it. So they came, so suddenly, she was like, mm, this is interesting. And my middle one is probably has, he’s very intuitive. So he probably would connect. He’s very into like or he was when he was younger. He’s 15 now. So he’s this is all not so interesting to him. But he was very into like wanting to know what his past lives were. And um, just super curious about that. And I  do use, I mean, I talk to them about meditation as a way obviously more from the like anxiety, a way to manage anxiety and stress and things like that. And my little one, I call him my tiny Buddha because he just says things. I think all little kids are like tiny Buddhas. He says things sometimes I’m like, are you coming from the quantum space? Who are you? Like last week, he said something to me. He said, mom, when you make a choice, that means that any other choice you could have made is no longer a choice for you? And I was like, wow. Are you like, is this the matrix?

Amy : What’s happening here, Savage? He’s dead, right? …It was just like, so profound. I was like, what? What is going through your little mind that you came up with that? And he he’ll drop some of those truth bombs, like throughout my weeks, and  I think that all kids have that ability and have that accessibility. And one of the things that I talk about sometimes is, I think that our intuition gets kind of hopefully, not actually physically beaten out of us, but unfortunately, sometimes that is the case. But when we’re little and and we have experiences where we are much more able to read people’s emotions and cues because we’re not filtered by our own, um, judgments around what different things mean. And when a child comes to a parent or says something like, you seem sad today, and the parent then says, no, I’m not sad, why would you think I’m sad …in those tiny moments we are squashing intuition.

Amy : Because intuitively they know that that’s.

Jean: Yeah, they sense it

Amy : They sense it. And so then, they put words to it and then we tell them no, and then they think, oh, I must not be right.. There must be something wrong with what I’m sensing. So you start to learn to turn off that, um, monitor within you. And the older you get, the further and further you get away from it. So I don’t think intuition necessarily, you asked me earlier is something you need to learn? I think it’s something you need to find your way back to.

Jean: Right….I think that’s.

Alison : Perfect.

Jean: Wonderful.

Alison : Yeah,

Jean: I think you nailed it right on the head, and I… That was great.

Alison : You know, my mom, my father had a very, very risky job, and I was an only child. And my mom, I could sense the anxiety my mom was going through. And I’d say, are you worried? Are you angry? And she’d say, no, honey, no, because she wanted to protect me. And I understand that. But as I grew up, I even still something will happen and I’ll have to call Jean or my husband or my friends and say, this happened and this is what I feel. What do you think? Like, I don’t trust that I’m picking up. So it’s exactly what you’re saying. So with my kids, my kids would say, are you angry? Are you? And I’d say, you know, I kind of am because I ran around today and I got stuck in traffic. It’s got nothing to do with you.

Alison : or say it’s the car… I felt like screaming. I just tell them, like, you know?

Amy : Right. Because what you’re teaching them is, like, what you are sensing is accurt,e you’re sensing someone else’s energy.

Alison : Right.

Amy : And so you/ we don’t want to shut that down because then, we’re really shutting down like a safety valve for people.

Alison : Yeah. Oh, that’s a great way of putting it.

Jean: Yeah.

Amy : That is so true because it’s important to have that, right?

Alison : And the great thing is, I mean… Some of us that will, you know, if we miss the boat with our own kids, we can pass that on to our children and go, you know what?…. Back in the day, I didn’t want to add any more pressure to you. So I never was… But when you think when you feel something, lean into it a little bit.

Alison : or if You don’t have kids, your friends.

Jean: Yeah. Exactly.

Alison : Like right.

Jean: Or like, this conversation is so helpful, Amy… I think so many people will relate and benefit from this.

Alison : Do you, could you just tell us what you meant when you said about living life backwards?

Amy : Yeah.

Amy : So living life backwards is this kind of concept that I came up with using, obviously from the perspective that we talked about earlier, like using this notion of the end, in mind, as a way to really guide your life, but also thinking about what happens to your soul when you die. So Eben Alexander, you talked about and many near-death experiencers will talk about this concept of a life review. And the life review, they say, is that they experience their life from the perspective of all the different people in their lives. So, and it could be someone that you, you crossed paths with once. It could be someone you were in deep, intimate relationships with, but that you are going to experience what it was like to be in relationship with you.

Alison : Wow.

Amy : So, I mean, just sit with that for a moment and think about. Right? Like when when people talk about heaven and hell, I’m not particularly, I’m not particularly religious in that regard, but I that’s what I think hell would be like if you have not treated people well. And and look, there are people, I’m sure that I have not treated well and things that I’ve done, and I’m not looking forward to that part of my life review. Like, I don’t know that I want to feel what what it felt like in that way. And again, that then informs how I act now because I’m like thinking about that. I’m like, oh, I don’t want that life review to to feel that way.

Jean: Right. So it’s about another choice.  You’ll make a choice not to, uh, put down someone or gossip. You’ll be like, um, you know.. Yeah… You just make another choice.

Amy : Yeah, and I try. I’m far from perfect. And like you were saying earlier, like, with the kids, like, I also know that I’m going to mess up my kids. And I also know that we’re humans, and that’s part of the experience. I don’t even want to say mess up, like there’s going to be hardships for them. And things that I said and did and what I know, having been a therapist for as long as I have, is that whatever the things you think are the things you said and did that your kids going to talk about in therapy, it’s not going to be that. It’s going to be like the little thing that you like, never even remember saying that in some way, hit your kid in a certain way or whatever it was. And it and there’s I mean, it’s just part of the nature of being human. And so I think having been able to see that over time has given me permission to make mistakes, to know that I’m not going to do this perfectly, to know I’m going to say things to my kids that are sometimes going to be hurtful, even if that’s not my intention, and that I can apologize for that, and that it’s not like one thing that you’re going to do that’s going to like set off this, you know, barrage of mental health issues. It’s it’s life, and life is hard. And I think the best thing you can do is teach people to cope with life rather than feel like everything has to be perfect. And I have to say the perfect thing all the time so no one feels any hurt or pain. That’s not realistic.

Alison : Yeah. Yeah.

Jean: There’s that saying that says, you know, if you want to be sad, try to live a perfect life.

Alison : Oh, I love that. Yeah, that’s exactly right.

Alison : Um, you know, just we have two last questions, and one is.

Amy : Oh, that’s it.

Alison : Yeah…it been 40 minutes. We don’t want to… Unless you want to keep going?

Amy : I’m good.  I’ve got till 4:00.  I love you guys.

Alison : So I know, we love you.

Jean: We would love to interview you again.

Alison : Could we do it again?

Amy : Of course.

Alison : I would love that. I want to do this like, every week.

Amy : I would love too, I love it.

Jean: This has been such a beautiful conversation. I’m already glowing just by chatting with you, Amy.

Amy : Oh thank you for that.

Alison : Do you want to do the questions?

Amy : My questions?

Alison : Yeah.

Jean: All right. So, Amy, what does inside wink mean to you?

Amy : Oh, I like this. Um, I feel like to me, it means, like, the little wink you get from the universe. Like you’re on the right path, like we’ve got you here.

Alison : I love that, and that’s what you were saying about like, serendipity, right? And sort of…

Amy : Exactly.

Alison : and like Signs.

Amy : Yeah.

Alison : Which is really what I would love to talk about another time with you, because I think that, I think once you become aware of that, don’t you think that’s life changing?

Amy : Life changing. It is so fun. It’s like…. It’s like a whole nother level of fun in life. When you start engaging in the synchronicities and signs of life, I feel like it just changes everything you, you do and how you are.

Alison : So we gotta, we gotta plan that for the new year. Okay?

Jean: And we’ll leave our audience hungry for more.

Alison : That’s right. Our last one is…Do you like pie, cake or ice cream?

Amy : I love this. I was like, what do I…  Cake! No question.

Alison : What kind?

Amy : Oh, gosh. Okay, so I live in Chicago and Sweet Mandy B’s is this amazing bakery right by my house. And they have a yellow cake with a chocolate frosting. That’s my favorite.

Alison : God, that sounds really good.  It’s the worst question to end on, because then I have to go eat something.

Amy : Yeah….What do you guys. Are you cake? pie or…???

Jean: I am definitely cake.

Alison : I’m cake and ice cream. There’s no like I put ice cream on the cake. I like pie, but cake with ice cream. Oh, man– with that frosting, with the ice cream.

Amy : It’s the frosting on the cake for me.

Alison : The frosting makes it. We had a cake recently, and the frosting wasn’t good. And you went, what’s the point of eating the cake?

Amy : Totally.  Yeah. I mean, and that’s why I love their frosting. It’s it’s delicious. It’s like the best frosting I’ve ever had. And I have a funny frosting story, but that could be for another time.

Alison : Okay, well, we’re going to we’re going to set something up for January with you..

Amy : Okay. Perfect. Amazing.

Alison : That would be great. And we just appreciate you so much. And I’m so enjoying your podcast.

Jean: Yes.

Amy : Thank you. Thank you.  Likewise.

Jean: It’s right up my alley.

Jean: I love all your… You have such wonderful guests and your questions are so…

Alison : you’re really smart.

Amy : Thank you. Thank you.  I’ve just read a lot—- like this whole— i read every book.  And I really try to tailor each… I’m like so purposeful with every question, and I’ve been doing the work of working with people for so long that I feel like I can be in the heads of what the listener might be curious about.

Jean: Yeah,

Alison : and , I think that’s a thing about you that I really enjoyed. You’re curious?

Amy : Mhm. Yeah.

Alison : You really want to know… Like just now, you said well what about you guys. What do you like,  pie, cake or ice cream? And I think we’ve done this many times and I don’t think anyone’s asked us that.  So that really speaks to your your soul.  You know, your your consciousness. So thank you so much.

Amy : Thank you both so much.

Alison : Have a beautiful day.

Amy : I want to hug you guys. Mwah.

Jean: Yes. Sending you big hugs.

Amy : Okay. Have a great day.  Stay warm.

Alison : Yeah, right.

Jean: You too.

Amy : Bye.

Alison : All right. Bye.

Jean: She was amazing. I loved her, and I really could have spoken a lot longer.

Alison : Right. And her podcast is really interesting. She has really interesting guests…  She’s right, she’s very focused when she’s doing it.

Jean: And i think that’s good.

Alison :  yeah. Me too.

Jean: Because these are topics that, that need a little bit of focus, because they’re it’s  talking about the esoteric is challenging…okay, so her podcast is called…

Alison : Life, Death and the Space Between….  and It really encompasses a lot — sitting on that line between science and spirituality.

Jean: Yeah, that is so true. I want to share with our listeners that if you go to her website, Doctor Amy Robbins.com.  You can download a workbook that she offers called ,Soul Wisdom, and she has wonderful questions to ponder about– that just kind of get you out of the everyday do do do. It kind of gives some attention to it, not kind of, it does give attention to your soul.

Alison : And what I love is that you feel that she’s very accessible because she’s like, I’m not the best at it.

Jean: She’s so relatable.

Alison : She’s very yeah..

Jean: I don’t do it every day. Some days I do, some days I don’t, but. Right?

Alison : Yeah.

Jean: She was awesome.

Alison : It’s excellent. You know, we were saying how great it is to keep making sort of these connections with people because really, every time we speak to someone or meet someone, I learn a little bit more about them and then myself.

Jean: Right. Yeah.

Alison : You know?

Jean: Same.

Alison : It’s really great.

Jean: Well, we hope you enjoy this this really lovely, wonderful interview.

Alison : And and us, we hope you enjoy us….hahahah….That’s it.

Jean: I enjoy you.

Alison : That’s right.

Jean: I enjoy us.

Alison : That’s right. We do… Have a great day.

Jean: Bye

JEAN : It’s great to see you.

ALISON : It’s great to see you too.

ALISON : We haven’t spoken, well on a podcast, since your We Spark thing…you were honored.

JEAN : I was honored, and that was, that was such a beautiful night. I was so surprised that my daughter Emily got to introduce me, and I thought it was going to be you.

ALISON : I know I was so happy that you thought that. And I was happy that we fooled you. And then you had a lovely video and comics. It was a really fun night.

JEAN : Fun? Yeah. It was.. It was a truly a fun, fun night across the board. It wasn’t all, um, pretentious or anything like that.

ALISON : It wasn’t a lot of speeches, they just had, they wanted to have fun. They raised some money. So I was so happy, i was so proud, Jean. I was so happy you did that.

JEAN : And you did it too.

ALISON : Well, I helped, I just helped with the video, which is…

JEAN : Which was a huge thing.

ALISON : I got to talk to your sister and your friends and everyone. Everyone came through, so it was excellent. And this is our friend today we’re interviewing.

JEAN : This is Cheryl Farrell, and I’ve known Cheryl for quite some time since our boys, our respective kids, went to Campbell Hall together. And I always thought Cheryl was just a very intelligent, super kind and generous woman. So she’s going to talk to us about storytelling.

ALISON : Which is so excellent because I love storytelling. I think, you know, just being an actor and understanding that stories are important. And she is such a good writer.

JEAN : Yeah, she truly is.

ALISON : And she she used to write a lot of articles when inside wink was a website. You know…And and so I’m so happy she’s doing this because I think right now To understand each other’s stories is so important..you know?

JEAN : And to understand what’s going on within someone’s heart and mind. Because most people just walk around and keep a lot to themselves. So it’s lovely to share what’s going on and also glean a sense of compassion or empathy.

ALISON : Yeah, exactly. So let’s listen to Cheryl and you guys are going to love her. So here she is.

Cheryl : Oh my gosh, Hi, Jean. Hi, Alison….my heart’s been pitter patter for…

ALISON : We love you, Cheryl.

Cheryl : I love you more. I, I it just seems so perfect at this time, would be now to talk about stories and how it relates to your work. So…

ALISON : And I think we were just saying that storytelling, I think right now in the climate of everything is so important because it allows us to, for that time, you know, be in someone else’s space and also, um, their shoes and just to kind of see something and see where we connect.

Cheryl : Absolutely. Our stories are what connect us and bind us. And in these highly polarizing times, it’s easy to create a story about someone based on their political affiliation, their race, their gender, their zip code, and we do that as a defense mechanism. I think it’s very primal. You know, back with the dinosaurs. Like, has that dinosaur eaten lately? Right. So I’m going to assume it’s hungry and it’s coming after me, and so that same primal instinct happens when we’re walking down the street and we see someone in a hoodie, or have a bumper sticker that says something that’s not according to our values. Um, that’s the underbelly of stories when we make them up and we don’t know each other. But I’ve always found that in a good crisis, you have a wildfire, have a flood, have some kind of reckoning. All of a sudden it’s one human being talking to another human being. Are you okay? Did you feel that? And I wonder why can’t just on a sunny, sunny Wednesday afternoon, we have that care for one for one another to find their stories. And we can still disagree on things, but we can disagree without doing harm.

JEAN : I think that’s the key…you know, we can disagree…Um, and and yet not feel like we’re separate from them. You know?

Cheryl : Not Villainize the other person.

JEAN : Villainize… right.

Cheryl : You know, not make them the enemy. Because there’s only, you know, basic needs shelter, food, compassion, love. We’re all, as human beings wanting those things… So storytelling unearths those, those needs. And that’s where we can find the connection.

ALISON : Do you, can you describe to our listeners what you do, like in terms of storytelling? Because I think what you do is so interesting, and I want everyone to kind of understand where you’re coming from.

Cheryl : Thank you for asking. I’ll start with where I’ve been and how it all came together as storytelling. I spent about 25 years in corporate America in sales communications for financial institutions, health care institutions. And then for a variety of reasons, the recession and things like that, i moved into, um, a storytelling space, a storytelling performer. So I’ll talk about some of those salons and things like that. So as a storytelling, um, performer, I found I can match the principles of storytelling and the needs of businesses and employees that need to collaborate better, have better communication. So in 2019, I created a consultancy called, Pop Up Storytelling for organizations. And it sounds like it’s telling the stories of business, but it’s telling the stories of the people who work in those businesses. And so you can find someone that’s sharing a cubicle for five years, and by accident or through facilitation, they learn that one of them was adopted and then another is a an adoptive mother. I was actually in a in a workshop once, and I posed a secret question that I can’t share here, but it’s a question I posed that generates a response.

Cheryl : And these two ladies that worked with each other answered the question, and they looked at each other. I didn’t know you were adopted. I didn’t know you were an adoptive mother. And they started chatting with each other…but they shared the same space for years? And so what I do in these corporate environments, in a safe space, is it’s not just willy nilly talking your business, but in a safe space, bring out those attributes, those experiences that others may be able to relate to. And so you’re not necessarily going to camp out at lunch with other adoptees, but you will recognize that person’s name on your email. That person, you know, you know, some of these people get hundreds of emails in a day, and they have to discern which ones they’re going to reply to. So they’ll reply to their boss, they’ll reply to the CEO, and they’ll reply to people they know, people they feel they have some kind of kinship with. And so to the extent that we can know each other’s stories without feeling exposed or violated, there is a likelihood of greater collaboration in the workplace.

ALISON : That’s amazing.

JEAN : Yeah, I never would have thought of storytelling in a business workplace as a good tool to bring coherency to my business, you know?

Cheryl : It’s a coaching method that, um, I think it’s pretty unique. I haven’t seen anyone else do it quite this way. There’s certainly industrial psychologists and therapists, but I’ve trademarked pop up storytelling, and I typically in these presentations, I’ll have my script, I’ll talk about the science of storytelling and all that. But there’s this unscripted part that never fails. I look forward to it. I can’t wait to that part, this question. And on zoom calls or in person, you’ll see people doing a double take… Me too.. That happened to me too. I can relate to that. I’ve presented in universities and law firms and, um, sororities, all types of organizations, nonprofits, for profits. Wherever there are people, there are stories.

ALISON : And do you find that it’s challenging for people to be vulnerable in those settings?

Cheryl : Absolutely.

ALISON : And how do you how do you work with that?

Cheryl : Well, there’s two layers of resistance. One is from the leaders because they have the mystique of being all…. And if you pull the, you know, the curtain behind their story, their facade, they may not want their subordinates to know that they’re human too, right? So that first line of resistance is finding leaders who are, I guess, desperate enough that they’ll try anything. I turnover there’s dysfunction among groups. Um, and if I can present it in the right way, they’ll at least give me a chance. So I get in that door. Then there’s this other door of resistance by the employees themselves, particularly women. People of color are conditioned to stay buttoned up, closed up. Don’t let anybody know the real you, because it will be exploited. But what I try to do is set up a what I call the rules of engagement safe practices, so that you can feel comfortable that what you share will be respected, will not be abused. Um, and, you know, there are nefarious characters everywhere. There are people that will take something and do something bad with it. Right. These days, the stakes are too high not to take that risk..We Take all the precautions we can to make sure that people are treating each other with compassion. But because the to not do so, is to perpetuate these divisive, um, cultures that are going on. It’s going on with our neighbors. It’s going on in our churches and our houses of faith. Um, these polarizing times are affecting everything from our personal lives to our professional lives. And it’s it’s worth taking the risk. The other the other area of pushback I get is from the introverts. And I know there’s a bunch of them listening in today.

ALISON : Yes that’s right.

Cheryl : The statistics show there are far more introverts than there are extroverts. You know, we’re in this society that rewards outgoing behavior, but most of us are quiet little folk that want long walks on the beach. They want… we want to be still and they’re in the workplace, right? So what I tell people is that I’ve taken Myers-Briggs and I have found that I’m an ambivert. I’m equally extrovert, equally introvert, so I can sing in front of 2 million people, and I can go on a cruise alone and be perfectly fine.  i’ve come to understand what gives me energy. What takes my energy away, and I regulate my activities so that I don’t get tapped out or overexposed. And so with storytelling, I say take it in doses. Do the part that appeals to your inner nature. So maybe you’re not telling your story in front of 500 people at the town hall. Maybe you’re finding a trusted friend who is willing to be vulnerable with you. Mhm. There’s also a book by Susan Cain. It was written in 2012 and I wanted to make sure I had her title correct here. Um, it’s called,”Quiet –  The Power of Introverts in a world that Can’t Stop talking”.  And she talks about how there are far more introverts, leaders of major companies, and the way they overcome their tendency to be inward is that they know they’re the master of their product. There’s no one else who can tell their product the way they do, so they have to figure out some kind of way to get up there and tell that story, because it’s that important.

ALISON : So that’s very interesting to me. And you’re right, like, I would not think— I would think, like what you said about the leaders, kind of takes me aback, because I would think the leaders would want their story to be out there. But what you say is they don’t want maybe people to think they’re human.

Cheryl : Well, or they don’t want to be the ones to tell it.  They have a story,  and I don’t want to drop any, high tech names without having done my research… But there’s, there’s a noted high tech inventor who is extremely introverted and he just found a way to get up in front of these huge investor audiences and talk about his product, and then maybe go retreat afterwards, like, you know, like when I perform or something, i’ll just say that the doors are closed. I’m out of here.

ALISON : That’s right. Close the bedroom door.

Cheryl : That’s it.  I’m having a nice conversation in a closet with me, myself and I, and we come out refreshed.  So when you talk about yourself in the plural, I guess that’s a problem. hahah– But anyway,  I figured out a way to retain my energy. You know, one of the essays I wrote for Insidewink, was about this desire to be a performer. I’d always imagined I wanted to be a on Broadway and all the glamour with that, and I’ve had touches of it a little bit, but not as a profession, but the older I get, the more I realize, I don’t know if I could be up on a stage every night doing the same thing.  For extroverts, that’s where they get their energy…I can’t wait to get on that stage,  but folks like me, is like you know, can we record it?…and y’all see…hahah

JEAN : You know Cheryl I think we change, you know, and at certain times in our lives, we need to be out there more. And then those of us that have been out there when we were younger maybe withdraw less and as we get older and vice versa.

Cheryl : I agree. No, we are shifting. Um, I know it was important to please and entertain when I was younger, so a lot of that outgoing stuff wasn’t by nature is just…I wanted to be liked. Now, I’m like, well, you know, it’s okay if I’m…. I’ll be fine, right?

JEAN : That’s right. My value does not always…. It’s not on so much of the outside anymore.

Cheryl : Exactly. One less Christmas card to send.

ALISON : That is right. That’s the beauty of getting a little older.

Cheryl : Yeah, yeah. I’m comfortable. If I don’t want to do this, I won’t do it.

ALISON : That’s right.

Cheryl : And I grieve about whether someone, you know what someone thinks of me. But all of those are parts of our story. All of our experiences as a young adult weave into our story for what we are today. And when I first meet you, you don’t have that ability to know those experiences that shaped me. There’s no sandwich board sign that says, oh, she was raised in, you know, Central or South Los Angeles, right? Or she she suffered infertility or Oh, she, you know, she had a premature birth. And I don’t necessarily want to be a poster child for everything that’s happened to a person. But those things have shaped me. And there are other people that can relate to that. Their experiences may not have the same details, but those underlying themes of courage or fear or uncertainty or hope are things that we can connect on… So a normal questionnaire– tell me about yourself?,  doesn’t bring up that type of information. But in sharing a story we do find those areas that we are more alike than unalike.

ALISON : Yeah. I thought it’s interesting that last night during the vice presidential debate. When Waltz said that his son had been, had seen or witnessed something with a gun, and and Vance was like, I did not know that. And it was a moment where it was two dads.

Cheryl : Yes. That’s it. You know, you hit the nail on the head.

JEAN : they found their common ground.

ALISON : And he looked at him and he was like, oh, I’m so, I’m so knowing, you know. And I realized, wow, these are two dads now.

Cheryl : Yes, that’s exactly the point. Perfect example.

ALISON : When you go into businesses, uh, that’s one thing, right? You’ve been hired. You’re doing it. What do you do for someone that’s, like, not in a business? How would I, who doesn’t work in a corporate world, begin to feel comfortable, more comfortable with my neighbors or with my friends. How can I open up like that?

Cheryl : Great question. Um, I think the first step is learning your own story. We think we know our story, but it’s through this guiding process that we understand, uh, in a story, there’s an arc, the the starting part, the background, the context. Next part of the arc is tension or conflict or challenge. Something happened and then there’s resolution. It’s an age old dynamic that works in literature and movies, and it can work for individuals in their storytelling. Now, the resolution doesn’t mean happily ever after that you’ll never have this problem again.  Good chance you’re going to cycle through that arc, over and over and over again, but maybe you’ll cycle through it a little quicker each time, because you’re going through something right now, and you remember, oh, it does abate. And it isn’t that, time heals all wounds, it’s just, in it’s time, you find resolution to that conflict. So there are these stories. So first is knowing your your story. Then it’s having the courage to share it because it’s great if you know your story, but it’s another thing to be willing to share it and to invite others to share theirs. So if there is a neighborhood homeowners association and there’s some conflict about, should we have this color on our roof versus that kind of, you know, there’s an opportunity for that group to find some cohesion in sharing their stories. And it may not make sense that we’re talking about paint colors. And then you’re bringing up this idea that you, you know, you had a particular situation as a kid, but given the right setup, there are ways that your neighbors, the people in your faith organization or any other group can come together and have this type of conversation. I’m also available, and therapists and others. I’m not a therapist, but others can do one on one coaching… Develop that and you then can go out and talk to others.

JEAN : How important do you feel Cheryl, um you know, listening to the stories of our ancestors.

Cheryl : Oh that just gave me chills. Yes. It is so vital because it fills that void where we’ve made up a story about ourselves. When you don’t have a connection to your past, you’ve got this arrogance of thinking you invented yourself. You came out of the womb with some hardware, some hard wiring… Some things that have shaped you. They talk about ancestral trauma, that you don’t know why you feel this way, but there’s just some stuff inside you that it’s part of your DNA.  um, you know, I was listening to one of your, uh, episodes, and, uh, Alison, you, I think, was in the introduction. You brought up this idea of how your grandmother’s skin made you feel. There was something about that, I believe.  You turned to Jean and said, have you ever felt that. And Jean was so sweet. No, I think I remember a neck exactly. But I do remember there was another story about, I guess, your grandparents or your parents. So. So there was this connection about something that happened in, you know, prior generation. Then Alison said, and it was an aside that just caught me. She says, you know, I never met my paternal grandmother because my father was left on a doorstep…..and y’all just kept talking. I’m like, ooh, did I miss that episode? …Cause there’s a story there, and people listening were wanting to know… I too feel that disconnect from my past, my my ancestors. And let’s talk about that, because it’s really not so much the circumstances for not knowing, but how does that make you feel? Yeah. And and what are you passing on to your kids? How do we fill that void for our kids, knowing where they came from? All of those are stories. So there’s there’s, you know, I say I got a million stories, but I have a lot. There’s just about everything that I’ve gone through has connection to this story arc. There was some place I, you know, I was in a certain place…. There was some kind of issue. And then this is how it resolved.

ALISON : I like that you’re using stories for forward motion. That you’re not sitting in the story sinking or, uh, either being a victim of it or being raised up by it, like that you’re looking to it for some sort of forward direction. Do you know what I mean?

Cheryl : I absolutely know what you mean. Right, it is not a pity party. not this willy nilly purging of your diary. it’s providing context for hope…  and that’s why I love your message about sharing the good. Because that’s what hope is all about, right? We’re sharing it because I can feel optimistic about today and tomorrow, even though the immediate circumstances are distressing. Yeah.

JEAN : I mean it reminds me of, of that quote you know– “share your story. But you don’t have to keep reliving it.” You know.. You’ve  had trauma or, or loss …..and speaking about loss, can you share how storytelling helps heal,   people going through significant loss?

Cheryl : Yes. You know, we grieve over any number of things. People, loved ones who’ve passed on, a pet, a lost opportunity, a feeling of abandonment and loss, uh, can be assigned to anything, right? And if you’re alone in your cocoon wallowing in your situation, you are missing the opportunity of hearing how others have gotten went through. It, came out of it. It isn’t necessarily, I talk about what it is, but I want to be clear, it isn’t necessarily, uh, if I can do it, you can do it too. That’s not what the story telling sharing is about. It’s knowing you’re not alone.  This is not unique to you, and the losses that others have felt is the same feeling burden sometimes that you’re going through, and so that healing for me means that I’m not doing this alone. Sometimes sharing my story during grief. Someone will just say I hear you. I acknowledge you. They’re not giving you advice. They’re not telling you what they would do. They’re just being present and saying I see you. And that fills the void that I’m seeing, and I’m heard and validated in this. Right. And um now, sometimes grieving can be pretty severe. So so storytelling is not a magic wand that says, oh share your story and you too will…. That’s not what this is about, right? Uh, sometimes there are therapists that include storytelling in their processes. Um, sometimes, you know, we need medication. We need certain things to get us through our grief. But storytelling is a tool, a something to consider if, um, you’re looking for a way through it.

ALISON : Um, when you said when my my father died very unexpectedly, when I had just turned 22, and everybody else I knew at that time had their dads and except my friend Sue Myers. And, um, when I spoke to Sue, I was in complete shock and feeling very victimized, like, very lonely. And Sue said just simply, I promise it’s going to get better.

Cheryl : Yes.

ALISON : And that was so powerful in that moment that my peer had experienced something similar. And exactly what you said you don’t… I did not feel so alone, and I think now I think we’re so challenged with people actually feeling lonely.

Cheryl : Yes. Oh my word. You know, the pandemic exacerbated the segmenting, that’s anyway, but thankfully, I just I don’t know if it’s human nature or just a higher power, uh, platforms like zoom, you know,  conferencing, like video conferencing was really kind of an afterthought in the business environment. If you weren’t in the office, you weren’t really important right now. Uh, this has been this has connected us in ways that we never could have imagined. And that’s that’s what gives me hope that no matter how dire our situation is, there is hope.  I have found the storytelling sessions i provide work just as well over zoom as it does in person. Now, this definitely something about feeling, touching and hugging people, but the essence of storytelling works as long as there are people on the screen and engaged. We have our little breakout groups. Sometimes the groups are pretty large and the breakout groups will come back sharing. Oh, this is what we heard and this is what we felt. I said, well, there it is. It works.

JEAN : Yeah, it’s it’s also really, um, life expanding just to be interested in someone else’s story rather than your own.

ALISON : Exactly.

JEAN : It’s like. Huh?

Cheryl : It’s like, imagine that. You know, and at a very crass level, sometimes hearing other people’s story can be a lovely distraction from your own.

JEAN : Well said. That is nothing wrong with that, right?

Cheryl : And it’s not to compare someone else’s situation to yours. But if you can be helpful to someone else, you look up, and a half a day has gone by and you haven’t thought about your situation.

JEAN : That’s huge. You know, that’s not to deny what you’re going through, but thank God we have that opportunity to shift our focus on something other.

ALISON : And you always feel better when you’re helping or listening.

Cheryl : Absolutely. Always…

Cheryl : ..And even if it isn’t intuitive for you, put up a post-it note and say I’m going to help somebody today.  I’m going to ask someone how they’re doing?

ALISON : I have very close relatives in um North Carolina right now, in Asheville. And uh, we were, they were able to text today and I was just talking to two of my nieces and I said, I’m gosh, I wish I was there. I wish I could help. And they were like, me too. And they showed me pictures. I can’t believe what it looks like, where their business, everything… And, um, and then one niece said, but I have to tell you, the interaction with everyone has been lovely and beautiful.

Cheryl : That’s a story that has come out of every hurricane, every flood, every fire.   Are you okay?  do you need some help?

ALISON : And that’s sort of the magic of being a human.

Cheryl : It’s the essence of being human. I’m going to share this story, but I’m hoping whoever is listening won’t be put out by, uh. Jean, you know, you knew I lived in Glendale, right? Beautiful tree lined neighborhood styles, Mediterranean home. And, um, I was foolish enough to think, well, if I can afford the mortgage, I can live here. Well, we were one of, you know, we were the only black people in the area, right? So, uh, but I’m.. I don’t know, I’m just kind of naive and hopeful. So about three weeks after we moved in, our neighbor had a flag hanging from his balcony, and it was a swastika flag that could only be seen, you know, in our backyard. At the time my son was about 5 or 6 years old. And, uh, being the conscientious mom, I said, if this man ever talks to you, you run for the hills. You scream and shout, don’t talk. That’s it.  So the Northridge earthquake happens three weeks later, and the first person to knock on our door was that neighbor. How are you guys doing in here? Do you need any help? Is there something I can do?  and my sweet, adorable kid pokes his head around the corner and said, “see, mom, he’s not so bad after all,”  I had to palm his little face and say, kids say the darndest things.  One of the first times I realized, I created a story for him. Why should there be a crisis? Why should there be trauma that we make those connections. But it’s human nature, it’s where we go. But I’m trying to intercept that as much as possible. I’m trying to get ahead of it, because we all, like I said, are human with this, these same needs.

ALISON : What do you think makes a good leader?

Cheryl : A person who is who dares to be vulnerable.. A person who dares to be vulnerable. Because real leaders are the ones that say, you may know more than I do on a particular area and it doesn’t diminish me. You win, I win. So they’re not ashamed to say that they don’t know everything.  Got another story, wrote a, I was a contract employee at a hospital where there was a CEO who would, um, go jogging every morning, and he was relatively new to the hospital, and he would come in with wet hair, and no one really knew exactly what was going on. This high powered guy would come in with, you know, wet hair from from, uh, jogging. And so I would write a weekly newsletter about, you know, what was going on in the executive suite, C suite. And there was one time I wrote a paragraph about, um, he jogs, he shared that he jogs because his son was maybe in his 30s at the time, died premature from a heart condition. And so he was jogging in memory of his son for good heart health. That’s not a sign of a of a typical leader that you would see.

Cheryl : And as you gave in your example before, now we don’t see, Mr. CEO. We see a dad, a dad who is paying honor to his son in the best way he can. He has policies in his hospital that support good heart health, not just because it’s good for business, but it’s, you know, it’s it’s a topic close to home. So  I can kind of sniff out a good leader. Um, and again, vulnerable doesn’t mean you’re just telling all your business and, you know, oversharing.. But it is someone you can tell that’s a human being, that’s a father, that’s an uncle, that’s a that’s an aunt. That’s a, you know, leaders are women too, that, um, that dares to be human and dares to see their employees as human. Not just widgets, not just, uh, full time equivalents. That’s a term they use in HR to talk about how many employees they have. They’re human beings who have, uh, you know, ailing parents, and they have children, and they have financial needs. They’re humans just like you. Yeah.

JEAN : I love that you put some, uh, meaning towards what vulnerability is, because I think a lot of people might think it’s just a, you know, no backbone, no boundaries, and of just going around bleeding heart. And it’s not that.. It’s not failing to embrace humanity. And humanity is is messy and it’s uncomfortable….  pockets of it are gorgeous and beautiful. And then there are sad and very trying times.

Cheryl : And we need them… That characteristic in our political leaders, in our business leaders.  yet I keep bringing up church leaders.  you know, there’s some  interesting things that go on sometimes in these houses of faith. You think oh we’re all getting along. Because people are different and if they don’t dare to be vulnerable we create these, you know these walls we put up and we don’t get at the real the real person.

JEAN : We also assume a lot. I think the human nature likes to assume- if you if no one is going to share, the mind is going to start assuming.

Cheryl : Yes, And again, I think it’s out of that primal need to know if this is friend or foe. Yeah. Fight or flight. So until I’ve had a chance to get to know you and we can’t get to know everybody intimately, I’ll just make up a story so that I can decide what my behavior is. I can decide if I’m going to return that phone call. I’m going to decide if I’m going to collaborate with that person. And, um, you know, women of color, uh, have stories written about them before they even walk in the door,  ou know, I’ve spent my entire career in, in some pretty important levels of the organization. And I early on was playing small because I didn’t want to reinforce any kind of stereotypes or stories that they would have about me. And, um, I just don’t want to hide my light under a bushel anymore. I don’t want to do that. Uh, so I’m not here to, um, you know, make anyone uncomfortable, but I will assert myself if that’s what’s needed. And hopefully people will hear the, merit of the message and not tie it with any kind of stereotypes about the person.

ALISON : Yeah, I think that’s so. I think the world is a better place because of that, Cheryl.

Cheryl : I think so. And I want us to get there, like I said before, the, you know, the sky is falling and there is hope for tomorrow. I feel I want to make sure that I underscore this. There is nothing but hope. We just have to work a little hard to show it. And I think that’s why I love your your platform, both the newsletter as well as the podcast. Because Sharing the good is there’s nothing better. Yeah. That’s the essence of storytelling. I mean, story may have some parts in it that are are uncomfortable, like I said, but we’re sharing for the purpose of good and hope.

ALISON : You know, after all these interviews that we have done, we always come back to the fact that they’re all pretty much the same. You know, it’s about compassion and kindness and respect…and  looking at someone else and saying, oh, I see you, do you know, and  I’m amazed that it could be anything from you and storytelling to people talking about how to maneuver through the medical world with cancer or giving lasagnas to, like, taking care of animals like you. Go, man, it all boils down to the same things.

Cheryl : Isn’t that exciting? To know that we are all connected… Through food, through medicine, through stories–  just being willing to talk to one another.

Cheryl : It’s being willing to talk to one another. Um, you know, one last little tidbit. When I was traveling, uh, internationally, I would always pick up a newspaper that had an English version, no matter what country I went to. There were articles about education, health, religious freedom, political freedom, you know, and and some of these were socialist countries. Some of them, it didn’t matter. But there are human beings caring about their family, caring about the environment. I said, look at this. So travel, I think, is one of the best means of education because you stop using that phrase. Those people over there–,  because they are us.

ALISON : And even traveling around this country now.

Cheryl : Yes. Oh, yes.

ALISON : Because I think people I think people on the coast tell stories about people not on the coast and vice versa.

Cheryl : Exactly. I mean, we we’ve been relegated to two colors. Are you a blue state or are you a red state?  to assign a whole state by define it by a color. Yeah. But at the end of the day, it’s everyone’s looking to find those things that fulfill them, that give them joy, that give them hope. They want the best. No one comes out thinking, I want the worst for people. They don’t. People won’t do that…. People want the best.

JEAN : Isn’t that true? That is it… And as you said before, hope– you know that vibration of hope is huge.

Cheryl : It will sustain you  over oxygen and water. If you think about people that are trapped in those mines. So yeah, they have no, you know, no nutrients or anything like that. It keeps what keeps them going is the hope that they’ll get out, and you hear about people in hospitals that you can give them all the medicine and all this, but if that inner spirit isn’t feeling like there’s a possibility I can get through this, it doesn’t matter…

JEAN : Yeah. Then you’re really in trouble.

Cheryl : Yes. You lose that spirit. So, you know, i’m grateful for chaplains and all those folk that go into hospitals and just say, you know, I see you. YSometimes they’re sharing their story.

ALISON : This beautiful Cheryl, it’s time for our two questions.

Cheryl : Okay.

ALISON : Are you ready?

Cheryl : I am ready. I hope I don’t sound overly rehearsed. I know what I’m going to say…haha

ALISON : What do you think insidwink means?

Cheryl : Inside wink happens to be a term for something I was already feeling. And some people call it intuition or, um, serendipity or, uh, luck. But there’s often in my life these moments that give a nod to- it’s going to be okay. Mhm. Right. So maybe, you know, it’s an email that comes out of nowhere or a or something flashes across the TV. You go oh look at that. And it’s inside because I’m recognizing it, I’m finding myself. Did you see that. Did you hear that. And they go, “no” I didn’t I didn’t really pick up on that. It’s my wink to this hope and optimism. I don’t think I can, I don’t I can beat hope into the ground. I just think that’s that’s what’s important. So anyway, that’s it’s an inside feeling and your terminology reinforces that.

ALISON : That’s beautiful Cheryl.

JEAN : Yeah.

Cheryl : Thank you.

ALISON : Thank you. That is really beautiful.

JEAN : It is.

ALISON : And probably the most important question we’ve ever asked.

Cheryl : Yes…

JEAN : Do you like cake, pie or ice cream?

ALISON : That’s right, that’s right.

Cheryl : Thank you. One of the most profound questions ever… And I have a story for every answer… Definitely a pie girl. Oh, because my mom, who is 93 now, was an aerospace engineer. She was one of those hidden figure types back in the day. Right.

JEAN : Wow.

Cheryl : A major, who used her skills to send rockets into space and jets, you know, into war. Um, she was a single mom for a good while, and I was maybe 5 or 6, and she would pack me up and very independent for that, you know, for that era. And we would go to her favorite restaurant and it was, um, carnations on Wilshire. I don’t know if you remember that. It was Carnat..ions on Wilshire near Crenshaw and.

JEAN : Like, white and red.

Cheryl : Yes,  they’re known for their ice cream but they had a restaurant.  And she would, and she’s educated, get this, but she’s from the South, and she would always order apple pie a la mode.  apple pie a la mode. And every time I have apple pie with a scoop of ice cream, I think of this courageous woman who made a way for herself long before there was a model for it. And so I like the pie. Not so much for its flavor and texture, but the memories that come from it. And, um, I have to watch it for cholesterol reasons now. But I can enjoy the memory, so. But thank you for asking.

ALISON : That is so beautiful.

JEAN : Very lovely.

ALISON : And your mom, wow.

JEAN : I know that’s another talk.

JEAN : Because I love that movie, Hidden Figures… And, um, kudos to your mom. And thank you to your mom for raising such a wise, beautiful woman.

ALISON : You’re just such a bright light. And we love.

Cheryl :  You are the lights. our lights connected…. Our lights are connected by two days apart. We have September birthdays. I think it’s the eighth, 10th and the 12th.

ALISON : Yep.

JEAN : Yeah, a bunch of Virgos.

Cheryl : We have a Virgo fest And I love being around those other bright lights in the solar system

ALISON : Thank you so much.

Cheryl : Yeah. Thank you for inviting me. I’m so honored. I’m among some very distinguished people you’ve interviewed, and I just hope that my little message is worthy.

ALISON : You’re right up there, Cheryl. We love you. We appreciate you. Thank you. And keep, keep doing, keep doing what you’re doing.

JEAN : Keep shining your light.

Cheryl : And you as well. Thank you so much.

ALISON : Have a beautiful day.

Cheryl : Alright. Take care. Bye bye.

JEAN : Take Two. hahah

ALISON : Take two. We recorded the best things about Cheryl and now we’re trying it again to reiterate them.

JEAN :  And it’s my pleasure, because I love talking about Cheryl and how big her heart is, how truly intelligence she is. But she does have that heart of embracing people. And so this is such a great platform for her.

ALISON : And what were you just saying after we stopped that? You’ve known her so long and…

JEAN : Yeah, for over 25 years, and certainly at the time when both of our respective children were younger and they would play together. And I just always was attracted to her vibrancy and her intelligence and always championing goodness. And and here we are, right. Coming full circle.

ALISON : And she’s very funny and very smart. And I love her business model because it’s not just like, you know, here are the rules to be in an office, you’re really playing upon people’s commonalities and opening people up. And what she said is so right– that way, you know them, you get an email from them and you’re like, oh, this is this is Bob, and he and I are similar in this way. And you begin to build real relationships then.

JEAN : Right. And and I do think businesses are understanding the importance of that. I don’t think that was so important back. Yeah. You know, like my dad was in the insurance business. It was very hierarchy. And and now as, as Cheryl spoke about leadership and vulnerability.  These are qualities that are emerging from these companies. And how great is that?

ALISON : Yeah. And I, I urge you to read Cheryl’s stories on Insidewink.com. Just, you know, go to the search bar and look up Cheryl Farrell because her stories are beautiful and very meaningful, and they’re short reads and they they give you different glimpses into her life and into things that, you know, like she talks about being one of the clue masters on jeopardy! She was, you know, and it’s such an interesting story because I didn’t even think about that watching all those years of jeopardy! You know, she’s really great. Cheryl, thank you so much. And thank you for what you’re doing.

JEAN : Yeah… You are quite the bright light… We love you.

ALISON : And thank you for and thank you for listening. And we hope you found hope you found it interesting and and keep telling your stories…right? Go tell someone right now a story.

JEAN : Beautiful.

ALISON : Have a great day.

JEAN : Bye.

JEAN: What are you doing?

ALISON: I’m starting right now. Hello.

JEAN: That is so you —okay?

ALISON: Why is that so ME?

JEAN: I get it, I get it.

ALISON: Why is that so me?

JEAN: you love to get the bloopers.

ALISON: I love the bloopers, and I love just doing it. I just love doing it. Okay. All right.

JEAN: I love just doing it with you. I mean, doing this interview with you because I’m so enamored by this woman – Chaz Ebert, who wrote this phenomenal book called, It’s Time to Give a FECK.

ALISON: That’s right.

JEAN: And FECK is f e c k. It’s an acronym for forgiveness, empathy, compassion and kindness.

ALISON: And, uh, you know, Roger Ebert is similar  to Alex in a way…

JEAN: I thought the same thing.

ALISON: Like iconic, someone we all knew. Our parents knew- we would watch Siskel and Ebert all the time, you know, reading his reviews in the Chicago paper and it just and then, um, you know, now he transitioned, he’s he’s in another realm and Alex is another realm. And you and Chaz are these women that are taking their husbands sort of work and their reputation and working with that and, and helping other people. I found it very moving because it reminded me of, of, of a situation like with you.

JEAN: I felt the same way. Alison, I really related to Chaz on so many levels. So I’m really looking forward to this interview.

ALISON: And she’s good friends with Marlene McGirt, who we did the interview  with We Spark. That’s how we know about Chaz and this book. And the book is fantastic. It’s a nice, easy read. And it’s, it’s it’s keeps you engaged because it’s very current. Current events is what she talks about and she talks about how to really rethink what’s going on in the world to allow forgiveness, empathy, compassion and kindness.

JEAN: Right. And it’s using those beautiful qualities of love to have a greater unification with everyone around us.

ALISON: That’s right, that’s right. So I can’t wait to hear what she has to say, right?

JEAN: Yes. Me too.

ALISON: Okay, here we go.

CHAZ: Yes. So Hi… I’m, Chaz, and you’re Jean and Alison, right?

JEAN: I’m Jean,

ALISON:  and I’m Alison….Hello.

JEAN: Oh, this is so great to meet with you via zoom. And, um, your book is so very, very special.

ALISON: It’s beautiful.

CHAZ: Hold on…Let me just tell him, I think somebody is going in and out of the door. I have to tell them. Don’t do that because it’s going to…

JEAN: Okay.

CHAZ: All right. Let me just. Yeah. One moment.

CHAZ: Okay. I think that that should be good now.,

ALISON: It’s so wonderful to meet you. And Marlene McGirt is one of our great friends and speaks so highly…. And you guys just went to the convention?

CHAZ: We did, we did. We were there… I was there all four nights, but she flew in one day for the…actually she was, she flew in actually, because I was giving a talk about my book at the University Club, and she happened to be here, and I was really glad to take her to the convention. So yeah.

ALISON: It’s so exciting, and while we were reading your book, I could not, you know, your husband has been, you know, so iconic and so loved by my family and so many people. And I just couldn’t help but see how it resonates with Jean’s experience.

CHAZ: And when Marlene told me that she had been on your show and I said, you know, I just felt like a there’s like a definitely a kinship there. Yeah.

JEAN: 100%. And when I was watching the movie of Roger’s life, I have, been I have been saturated with you and your family the past two weeks. I know more about you, which has been so phenomenally inspiring to me. But, um, so many things, Chaz… Like Roger was 50 when when he married you. Alex was 50 when he married me.

CHAZ: Wow.

JEAN: Yeah, they both love movies. And I have to tell you, Alex would love watching your husband and, you know, his show, his movie critic show. So we would sit together.

CHAZ: And we loved watching your husband show because we both loved words and knowledge and everything. So it was okay,– so we have even more in common than we even thought.

ALISON: Right. That’s right.

JEAN: Yeah.

CHAZ: Well, andthe thing about you both, I love that you have this mission for bringing more positivity into the world because we needed more than ever.

ALISON: Yes we do.

JEAN: Yes we do.

ALISON: And that’s why your book… When Marlene told me, the title has got me.. Right there… your title got me.

CHAZ: Although I know that people think the title is to be in your face, but it’s not because it’s just an acronym, right, for those qualities. And and it does make you snap to attention a little bit, I guess so.

JEAN: Right. Yeah. It does. It does call your attention because you wait… Oh, this is a four letter word, but it’s not THE one that my brain thinks right away, it’s as you say, it’s a four letter word for love. And, um, so can we start off and just tell our listeners what inspired you to write this book?

CHAZ: So I started writing the book, I think, around the time of the pandemic. Actually, the idea for the book was before that time. Um, and really the book I started to write was not, “It’s time to give a fECK.” It was more something about, um, some of the emerging writers and film critics and artists and technologists that I was mentoring, because I started this program…. Uh, we call them, I think you know, Ebert scholars, Ebert interns, and, uh, actually, Robert Redford, the year after Roger passed away, and Roger passed away April 4th, 2013, and in January of 20, 2014 at the Sundance Film Festival, Robert Redford told me that he’d like to start, um, a sort of an internship program in Roger’s name at Sundance, and he asked for permission to do it. And of course, I gave him the permission. But before then, I was taking some other upcoming film critics to Sundance and other film festivals around the more more so film critics like women and African Americans and Hispanic Americans who didn’t get a chance to go to some of these film festivals. And so Robert Redford noticed. He said, why don’t we call this, you know, Ebert’s? We call them Ebert Scholars. I forget the first name of the program. And as I was writing these things, I wanted to actually write about those people. And and so there in the back of the book.

CHAZ: But then the pandemic set in and I started noticing that people were… Anxiety was increasing, people were getting more isolated. People said that they felt that they didn’t have a connection to other people. And I started knitting together stories of of where people were good. Because what the thing that Roger and I really, the thing that really brought us together, we both loved goodness in people. And we said that when we watch movies, things that make us happy or sad were not things that were bad. But when people were good, that really touched our hearts and we both felt the same about that. So during the pandemic, I started changing what I was writing about in this book. And it, I started coming out with more things about examples of compassion and kindness and and empathy. You know, the empathy is, Roger said, movies are a machine that generates empathy. Yeah. And let you put yourself in the shoes of another. So, um, it’s just, you know, it sounds like a long answer. And it is because, to tell you the truth, sometimes I don’t know why I wrote the book. And so it just seems like I started writing. I was writing another book, and then something took over. And so I ended up writing this book.

ALISON: So I love that though, because it means that you there was a muse or an inspiration or an angel that was sort of tapping you, saying, hey, what about turning this way?

CHAZ: Yes Alison, that is the truth. Because when I was first writing the book, I said, who wants to read a book about goody two-shoes? W,ho wants to read something where people are telling them you must be kind or you must be this? I didn’t want to make it seem like I was preaching or doing anything to to people. And, uh, but then the stories here are certainly, you know, there are some really, really difficult stories in here too. So I sit there, you know, what’s wrong with the a lesson here or there or what’s wrong with being kinder or more compassionate?

ALISON: And, uh, for someone that hasn’t read the book, it’s almost as each section begins with a personal story or a current event or something that you’ve read about. And I love the way you invite us to look at it differently or look at it another way, like, um, the football player story. I remember that so vividly, but I didn’t know all the details you had found. And, Emmett’s mom that broke my heart and and also learning about, um, you know, from my point of view, I just knew your husband as this man that gave these great reviews, and I’d see the movies he said yes to. But the fact that you talk about his goodness.

CHAZ: Oh, yeah.

ALISON: Like it picks up the veil a little bit. And I find that I found that very moving.

CHAZ: You know, one of the things that I used to tease him about is that for someone who actually had such a kind and generous heart, he had to go through life with the moniker of critic.

ALISON: Right. Right.

CHAZ: And there’s nothing wrong with film critics. Film critics– that’s a fine, fine field. But for someone who wanted to bring more goodness into the world to be called a critic, I just thought, okay, that’s a cosmic joke on you.

ALISON: That’s right. How did you pick the stories that you introduce each section with that? And that must have been an emotional process.

CHAZ: So  the personal stories I put in, because as I was writing the book, I said, I don’t want to make it sound like I am putting myself above anyone and saying, you do all of these things, I’ve achieved this and and you haven’t, and this is what you need to do. I wanted to have somebody say it, as somebody said, some skin in the game, and I wanted to show that I too just, you know, that I wrote the book for myself as much as I wrote it for anyone else, because there are some people in the book you talk about, like Mamie Till-Mobley, Emmett Till’s mother, who when her son went down to Mississippi in 1956, I think it was and was murdered. And his and they, you know, tied stones around his neck and put him in the river. And on the third day, his body, actually, it almost sounds biblical. His body rose from the depths of the water, and they were able to see how brutally he had been murdered. For his mother to have the presence of mind, to say, I’m going to have an open casket funeral so the world can see what they did to my son. Right. I don’t think that most people would have had either the courage or the presence of mind to do that while you’re grieving, and it was that brave act of a mother that actually caused more journalists to write about a black boy in Chicago. At that time, you didn’t see those stories that often, and she actually had attracted because of the empathy of other mothers. Thinking no matter what color they were, they could relate to that. And it really caused it to become really a galvanizing force in the civil rights movement.

ALISON: So I had to read that twice because I have two children and I, I it gives me chills even to think about it. I got so affected by that woman doing that. Yes. It makes me very emotional even just thinking about it. The pain that she must have been through in that church and in those moments in order to shed light for the world to see. It’s so unselfish that it is….

CHAZ: Wouldn’t you know, I was thinking most of our instincts would be… You just want to hide away. You want to go, you want to make yourself as small, to get away from the world, to shut out this cruel world.

CHAZ:  She opened herself and opened up and invited us in to try to stop this kind of cruelty from happening to other people. And another thing I love about this story. Roger and I got to meet Mamie Till Mobley.

JEAN: Wow.

CHAZ: And she had become a school teacher, and she said God took away her son, but he gave her all these other little boys and girls to be, to feed her life with, to to fulfill her her life and to teach. And she it was just I mean, there’s so many really wonderful things about what happened to her and her life afterwards because of the sacrifice made by her son. Um, anyway.

JEAN: Y,ah, that’s that was one of a very powerful story that that you share. And, you know, your book is so vulnerable. And it for me, it really opened up, um, as reading, reading some of your stories, reading like the Amish, the shooting at that Amish Amish school and how they (clearing throat) excuse me. Um, how they dealt with pain and actually embraced it and turned it around..

CHAZ: Yeah, they went to the house…to  the man who broke into that Amish school, the Nickel mine Amish community in Pennsylvania. And he separated the boys from the girls, told locked the boys out. And I hate to even say it, you know, he killed the girls and the families to go over to the widow of the killer of their kids, to say, I forgive you, I forgive him, I forgive him. Where does that come from? (coughing) excuse me.

ALISON: You’re the same,

JEAN: You know, it chokes you up,

CHAZ: It really does. There were for years I could not even think about that story without crying, without bursting into tears, Roger and I… that was one of the things that we would talk about. Where does someone find the divine, almost divine, depth of compassion or divine depth of forgiveness? The divine. And and I do believe that, you know, and when I was in graduate school, philosophy was one of my favorite subjects. And whether we were talking about, you know, Locke or Rousseau, whoever, whomever we talked about in philosophy class, I would always disagree with the philosopher who said, that man in the state of nature is a beast. He is the worst. He all of his instincts. I would agree with the philosophers who said, man in the state of nature is good or wants to be good, but sometimes they want Us to help set out the the circumstances to show their best selves rather than their worst selves. And I still believe that. And I know it may sound a little, you know, a little Pollyanna ish, but no, I’m pragmatic, I, I was a trial attorney. I’ve seen a lot of really horrible things, but I’ve also seen a lot of really good things, too. And that’s why I love that you you look for them and you find them and we, we celebrate them so that we can bring more of that out.

JEAN: Right? Right. And and there’s that phrase that says what you focus on increases, increases. The more we focus on seeing the good in others and certainly we’ve all we’ve all had forgiveness lessons and and I -to your point about it being almost divine, it is the other phrase is to error is human, to forgive is divine, and to bring that higher power of love and forgiveness into a situation. It does turn lemons into lemonade. And yeah, you give so many great examples and I love the the little journaling you have at the end … That’s very clever. It’s like a little workbook.

CHAZ: Little workbook at the end of each chapter. Yeah, yeah. Jean, you know, the publisher was the one I have to give the publisher credit for, suggesting that I put it at the end of each chapter. I wanted it to be a separate book, because as a kid, I was an avid reader, and I used to say, books are my friends, and I would not write in my friends. I would not write in a book. So I didn’t want to have a book that people wrote in. And they said, and they said, but people want to do it as soon as they read it. You give them an example. And I said, but could they do it? Could it be a separate workbook? They said, no, people want it right then and there. And a lot of people have actually said they like writing in the book immediately afterwards, because they said if they had to go get another journal or something, they may not do it. But if they’re if it’s in their mind, they especially in the chapter of forgiveness, more people have told me they started keeping a list of people that they either wanted to forgive or they wanted to ask for forgiveness from.

ALISON: So, i thought it was interesting. Your four qualities are forgiveness, empathy, compassion, and kindness. And I love the way… and maybe you could just help our listeners with this, describing some of the differences in the levels, because I really– you made it so simple for me because I’m like, well, isn’t empathy kind of the same as compassion. And how does kindness fit in? Could you just give us a quick rundown of that? Because that was great.

CHAZ: Yes. And I say that forgiveness is, and this is a really quick run through of it. You say forgiveness is the art of, and it is an art, or the act of accepting that maybe people are doing the best they could do at the time, and you want to relieve them from the…. you want to relieve relieve yourself from the burden of feeling a victim to something that someone’s done to you. So forgiveness is as much for you as it is for the other person. I’m going to come back to that one. Empathy is putting yourself in the shoes of another person, of someone different from you, of another race, age, political persuasion, Ethnicity, uh, and just trying to understand what it’s like to be that person. Even if you disagree with the person, just having some feel for what it’s like to be live that person’s life. When you have empathy, sometimes you develop compassion. Compassion is the feeling for wanting to help alleviate maybe an obstacle or alleviate the suffering of others. By putting yourself in their shoes. You maybe develop a compassion for their lives because maybe it’s something you didn’t understand before. Kindness is the action step. Once you empathize with someone and you’ve developed compassion for them, and you want to help alleviate the suffering or obstacle, or you want to uplift them in some way, kindness is the action step of what you do to alleviate that suffering or to uplift a person.

CHAZ: So that’s how I distinguish them. And the thing about forgiveness is I still love talking about Archbishop Desmond Tutu, because he gave me such a good lesson in forgiveness that I didn’t ,I didn’t see forgiveness that way. I always thought forgiveness was something you did. You were being magnanimous. And I’m going to forget I’m a big person, so I’m going to forgive you. And he said, no, forgiveness also is as much for you because it relieves the weight of your shoulders of feeling like a victim. It takes away that need to want revenge. And he talked about, you know, how he and Nelson Mandela, when they had the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, they lost so many friends who did not want them to forgive people who had committed egregious acts under apartheid. And he said, but he realized without forgiveness, there was no path to redemption. Without forgiveness, there would have been bloodshed without forgiveness, he said, I would have felt like I remained in prison.

ALISON: Wow. And, you know, that’s a huge worldwide event. But taking it down, like, even a little more simpler, when  allowing yourself to forgive, you don’t even have to tell the other person. You don’t, you know, and that’s what your book really reminded me. And the other thing that you said is self-compassion, is something that happens not in a vacuum. And the whole idea of you, it’s you really opened me up to thinking about things in a different way. And we’ve read a lot of these books, Chaz, for all. And really, I loved it. It really like and I think the forgiveness piece is so crucial because there are people that I haven’t forgiven exactly for what you said. And then this book allowed me to think I can do it right now.

CHAZ: Oh, I love that…Alison, I love it.

ALISON: I can release it right now, you know, and let it be. And and it was excellent. So I wanted to thank you.

CHAZ: Thank you. And, you know,  in the thing that where I talk about also the self-compassion part and, you know, for years I really didn’t talk about the fact that I had been a teenage mother. And when I was in college and I, I graduated, I think when I was 16, going on 17, went to college, found that I was pregnant. And back then it was like, shame, shame, shame on you. You, you know, this was really such a no no. And I felt that I had let my family down. Mhm. The eighth of nine children, I was the first one to go to a four year College. My two older sisters had gone, I think, to like maybe a nursing program or something, but not like a full college nursing program. And everybody was so proud of me. And then I thought, I’m going to have to drop out of school. I’m going to I can’t tell. Nobody’s going to like me. And they’re going to think I’m such a bad girl and da da da da da. And I was so down on myself. And when I was in the hospital for an unrelated reason, and the doctor said, you know, young lady, you’re pregnant, you know. Does your family know? And I said, no.

CHAZ: He said, well, I’m not letting you out of this hospital until you call them. And at that time they had these big phones by the bed. And he brought the phone to me in my hospital bed, and I had to call my parents, and, um, they all just rallied around me like angels. My mom, my dad, my sisters and brothers, my my my my college roommates. Everybody was so wonderful to me. No one made me feel ashamed. In fact, everybody loved my son when he was born so much, and the programs that I endowed today for young people are a direct result of that, paying it forward, that people did for me. Yeah, people sometimes, especially young people or emerging people, you don’t even have to be young, you can be just emerging, uh, just need a hand. They need, you know, somebody to give them a hug or somebody to give them an encouraging word, somebody to invite them for a meal, somebody to tell them, yeah, you can do it. Or or you’re a good person or I love you or something. And that’s what people did for me, and I, I mean, even to this day, I’m so grateful for that.

ALISON: Yeah. That’s so beautiful.

JEAN: It’s so inspiring because it really helps you realize that we are beings of of great love… We really are and when we share our humanity with another person, you know they can of course not accept us, but I do think more and more people are like, oh yeah, hey, I get it. You know, let’s, let’s work on this together. And, and again, that brings unity and a deeper feeling of connectedness that I know was your mission and your beloved Roger’s mission.

CHAZ: Yes.

JEAN: I’m curious. Um, so thank you for all that. So, did you and Roger have a favorite movie?

CHAZ: A favorite movie together?

JEAN: Um, like a movie that you felt that also, um, demonstrated empathy. So something that you thought, oh, this movie is really about Compassion and love and all of that.

CHAZ: Okay……I am monumentally unprepared to answer that question because there’s a rule, but I can’t think of any.

JEAN: Okay, well, we can brainstorm because I have a few. Yeah. Okay. Well, I, I love Forrest Gump. Oh….

CHAZ: We love Forrest Gump.

JEAN: Yeah. So did Alex and I.

CHAZ: We love it, you know because, and people would say no, but that’s they’re kind of making him seem like, you know, he’s someone who’s not very bright. And I said, no, I love Forrest Gump. We both did. Because first of all, seeing Sally Fields as that mother… Stepping up for him and making sure that he gets, you know, in the world. And then, the way that he looks at people and sees the good and sees the good….

CHAZ: You know, even though he (Rodger) had to review the movie, uh, in his job as a film critic, we also went on a date and just went to see the movie so that he didn’t think about reviewing it or anything, just to see it again. Yeah. We love, Forrest Gump.

JEAN: Yeah, I love it. Do you have a favorite movie, Alison?

ALISON: Um, well, I, I do love Forrest Gump, too. You know, there’s, um, there’s a lot of movies that I’ve really loved. I was thinking the other day about the movie The father that we saw with Anthony Hopkins, where he’s suffering from Alzheimer’s. And it just it really moved me, I think, because I’m reading a lot about Alzheimer’s and sort of and it really was it made me feel such empathy because, you know, he’s (Anthony Hopkins) fabulous and it allows you to really be in his shoes with a bit of the confusion and misplacing identities of people. And it’s really, It’s beautiful for that reason that it opened me up and I thought, wow, this is really a truthful experience.

CHAZ: Yeah, that was a that was a beautiful movie. And you know what.. What you’ve made me realize I need to sit down and put– if I’m going to be talking about this book. Yeah. I got to put together a list of movies. I have a whole list of movies that I love that are good, that I want to recommend to people.

ALISON: Yes.

CHAZ: There are movies that I watch that make me want to go out and, you know, commit an act of kindness or, you know, an act of kindness and goodness. And I have to put together a list. So I promise you, if we’re going to have a whole list.

ALISON: We would love that. Can you also maybe maybe the two of you, it might be interesting because you, you know, had such husbands that were so well known. You said the grieving process is personal.

CHAZ: Yes.

ALISON: Cn you maybe explain what you meant by that because, you know, we were so inundated, at least my age, with the Kubler-Ross five stages. And here’s the stages you go through. And yet I felt what you were saying was, you know, it’s a personal journey.

CHAZ: Well, and I want to hear what what Jean has to say, but I the reason that I wrote it in that in the book is because people had like a one year rule. And like after a year, Roger passed away April 4th, 2013, and by the next year, in 2014, people started asking me, well, are you dating? Are you doing this? And I would say, no, not yet. And or, um, what do you mean? They would start asking all kind of things. And I said, you know what? It’s only been a year. Oh, yeah, but it’s. But it’s been a year. Uh, no, a year is not enough time for me and for for some other people, especially men seem to kind of maybe start dating and get married sooner than women. I don’t know whether that’s that’s true or not, but I know for me, and then there were some women that I met five years down the road, they still weren’t quite ready. So I said, it’s just so individual for everyone. And I know the Kubler Ross, you know, seven stages of grief or whatever, that’s valid as well. But, Jean, what what about you?  I mean, grief is just so individual.

JEAN: I couldn’t agree more with what you just said, Chaz. Um, I too, after a year of some people were like, oh, are you dating? You know, and I….

CHAZ: And are you over it or whatever, you know.

JEAN: And I was like, that’s for me, like you said, it’s so individual. That was the last thing…. A year was just sort of coming out of the shock.

CHAZ: Right.

JEAN: of living without (Alex) like it was, you know, and um, and there are days that I think of Alex so much. He’s just in my awareness and I’ll be thinking about him and thinking memories. And then I come back.

CHAZ: About thinking, or are there some days that you actually feel them? And, you know, he’s kind of around somewhere?

JEAN: Definitely.

ALISON: Do you have that too?

JEAN: Do you ha

CHAZ: Oh, yeah.

JEAN: Yeah…Well, you know, how long were you a caregiver to to Roger from his diagnosis?

CHAZ: So for, I would I say the last seven years seven.

JEAN: Okay.

CHAZ: Of his life because um, he had actually, when we actually when we first we married and we were together about 24 years, we got married in 1992. Um, but we had been dating for a few years before then, and he told me when he proposed, he said, I have to tell you something. He said I had cancer once before, and odds are it could come back sometime. So before you give me your answer, I want you to know. And I said, oh, you know, I asked what kind of cancer and when was it? And he said, you know, I’ve been I as far as we know, it’s gone. But you never know once you have cancer. And um, so 1992 and I think in 2002 I think it came back, but then that was treated, it was thyroid. So once they take out your thyroid that’s gone. Uh, that cancer is that’s the one of the easiest cancers you can have, because once they take it out, if it hasn’t spread,  you remove the thyroid. That cancer is gone. But then the salivary cancer came back in 2006. So from 2006 to 2013, those last seven years is when he had, you know, the the hardest problems with it. And so the first year, 2006 to 2007, he was in the hospital for almost the whole year. So in and out. So but after that, even though he lost his ability to speak, once he got out of the hospital and got rehabilitated, he was able to write again, to go to movies, to go to the opera again, which we both love, to take trips with our grandchildren. So even though his life was different, it was not like it was a lingering or a sickness. So it wasn’t like a long caretaking process.

JEAN: Yeah. And how brave of him to share his story, you know, unlike his partner in business, Mr. Siskel. He he Gene Siskel. He he was more private about his health.

CHAZ: Right. I understand both.

JEAN: 100% because I think I’m a little more of, you know, Mr. Siskel…  and Alex, I was very surprised that Alex was so forthcoming with the pancreatic cancer. Um, but…

CHAZ: And how long… Was his from his diagnosis to.

JEAN: It was just under two years. Mhm. And it was all through Covid. So um, which is, which is you know, a lot of people have their markings in time. Oh that’s pre Covid. This is after Covid. But for me it’s more it it’s more around Alex’s…. oh that’s before the diagnosis. Oh that’s after, oh that’s before his transition. That’s after. You know? Covid was really in the background of my life and and as I know you know, like caregiving…

CHAZ: It’s all consuming.

JEAN: And Alison is an amazing caregiver also. And she’s helping a friend right now. And it and it lives in your brain. You know, it’s in your consciousness. Like how are you feeling? How are you, you know, moving through the world. How can I help you? Um, and I and I think this, this book that you wrote is also a great book to just have with you…. When you’re in a doctor’s– because it’s very uplifting your book and…

CHAZ: So thank you. Yeah. Because when I wrote it, I finished it actually during Covid and after Covid when things start opening up again, I reread some of the chapters and I realized I had been so influenced by Covid that some of the chapters were too daunting and too much of a downer. And so I tore them up and rewrote some of the chapters to make them a little more evergreen, or to make them a little more hopeful.

ALISON: Yes.

CHAZ: And so and I and I want to say something. So. Alison, so I just got, I’m not a psychic… My mother was, but I got some intuition. Your compassion is just… Where does it come from?

ALISON: I love people, I love people. My father, my father was a Pulitzer Prize winning reporter. I think he even knew Roger. Um, years ago. And he was a newspaperman, and, um. Uh, he just wanted. He was left on a doorstep and never found his parents. And that’s why he started reporting. And he was the, I think, the most compassionate person that I think, i just have it in me.

CHAZ: Wow.

ALISON: What what  initiated you asking?

CHAZ: Because I can feel it. yeah. And when Jean was talking. You are such a good listener. And you listen with such compassion. And it started pouring off. And I said, I want to know where did this come from? So every now and then my mother, you know, she would teach. She would teach us a lot of this stuff that she did the, the whatever, the woo woo. But every now and then when I pay attention. And she said, most people are intuitive. You just have to be really observant and you have to really go inside and wait and see and just be quiet. And then it just, you can feel it something.

ALISON: So thank you so much, Chaz.

CHAZ: I feel from you in so strongly.

ALISON: Thank you. You know, I, I really do love people and I really like just seeing you. I feel like we know each other because, you know, I think everyone wants the same thing. You know, safety, love of their children, love of their family, um, to be seen, to be heard, you know, and I, I that’s why I was so moved by your book. Is there something like, for our listeners that you could say, if we’re just going to start today, what are some small acts of kindness that we can move with just today, like just off the top of your head.

CHAZ: Okay, I’m going to say a small one, but I’m also going to say a big one because I usually don’t say the big one. I usually say the small one and something as simple as saying hello to your neighbor, or hello to a friend, or hello to someone, a coworker that maybe you don’t like that much and you have been kind of avoiding. Give them a smile and say hello and see how that turns things around. Maybe not immediately, but to me, we are in our devices so much and we’re looking and we won’t look people in the eye. And I just say sometimes, just stop, look somebody in the eye smile and say hello. It can change someone’s day and it can also change your day. The big thing that I’m going to start saying is something that I want to advocate doing. I want to start, um, and maybe, maybe you’ve heard me say this, some FECK dinners where I have people from different political persuasions around the table, but with a moderator, with someone like,you know who knows how to handle it…you don’t just put a very one from a very extreme side on one side and a very extreme side together. People more in the center or, you know, a little bit somebody right, somebody left Democrat, Republican, and start having people eat and talk and say, why do you feel this way? Explain to me, I want to hear I want to do some deep listening and tell me why. And not that you’re trying to convince me, and I’m not trying to convince you. I’m just trying to understand. And so sometimes invite someone who you don’t agree with  you, or just talk, talk to you.

ALISON: Do you know Chaz in Europe years ago? I don’t know whether it’s still happening. There was a whole society where you could rent a person, like a book….  it was a people library. So it would be like, um, someone that had very strong beliefs this way, would spend a half an hour getting to ask this person, that had beliefs where they just questions.

CHAZ: I love that.

ALISON:  And it became this big movement in Europe. And I thought, that is so– that moved me so much— like people right, left, black, white, um, tall, short. Anything that you could think of that would, that would create a question and you would spend a half an hour. And I thought, that’s so beautiful, and that’s what you’re doing. If you can start these dinners, where do you live?

CHAZ: I live in Chicago.

ALISON: My gosh. Well, if you do that, we’ve got to come.

CHAZ: Okay, you know what? I will invite you. And we are going to do it. We want to try to start…. But this is you know, time is getting away because this is already September,and we want to try to do it before the elections.  um, but you know what? Maybe we should let the elections go and then do it after that. I don’t know, but, um, I would just love to do that. And I know that sometimes  during holidays around, um, Rosh Hashanah or Easter or something, some religious groups sometimes will get together and do something similar. But I like to do it with people who really, and like I say, I wouldn’t advocate putting extreme right and extreme left together for the first ones it would be somebody who’s more open and willing to at least listen.

ALISON: I love that… Um, you know, we just have one quick final question, and it’s just an interesting question. What do you think… you know, insidewink is the name of our podcast what do you think that word means?

CHAZ: For me, and I think of an inside wink, an inside wink is when I feel that I have knowledge or I have the goods of something that’s happening, and it’s something I’m going to convey to someone else, and it’s kind of a wink at them. And I get that they… I see the light bulb go off in them and they are ah, they got it. Ah, that’s the inside wink. We both got it. That’s what I think of as an inside wink.

ALISON: That’s perfect.

JEAN: Yeah,

ALISON: That’s exactly right. That is perfect.

JEAN: very beautiful.

CHAZ: It’s perfect, everyone is right.

ALISON: Well… Everyone sort of is right. But I love that. That’s really beautiful. Yeah. Thank you so much.

CHAZ: Okay. And wait a minute. I think you were going to ask me another question. I really want your question.

JEAN: Okay. Do you like cake, pie or ice cream?

CHAZ: Ice cream.

ALISON: What Flavor?

CHAZ: I love it because, I said if there’s one food that I could just have, but  it sounds so terrible to say it, but even if I’m really full and somebody offers me ice cream, I could eat it. If you offered me cake, I’d say, oh, no, I’m sorry, I love cake, but I know I can’t have it….  i’m full. I’m satisfied. But ice cream, I don’t know, I think….

JEAN: What kind of ice cream ?

ALISON: Yeah. What flavor?

CHAZ: That’s where it gets kind of boring. Vanilla Haagen-Dazs is my favorite ice cream. But the second favorite is black walnut. And this one? You can’t go many places. Black walnut. Well, black walnut is probably actually my first, but because I can’t find it, I usually end up just getting vanilla or pistachio.

JEAN:  we love the same one.

CHAZ: Oh, really?

JEAN: I love black walnut.

ALISON: Also, pistachio to the moon.

CHAZ: wow… Okay.

ALISON: We’re very connected. We met in a previous life.

CHAZ:  thank you. Can I ask you one question, or is it time for this to end?

ALISON: No, no, no, you can keep going.

CHAZ: So what is your your overall like your goal from here on out, with the podcast or with what you’re trying to do, in like—because I want to tell you a project that I’m working on.

JEAN: Well, I would answer what our goal is, is just to keep interviewing people that are inspiring, that are doing great, you know, really good things in the world. And it doesn’t have to be monumental. You know, we just small acts of kindness. Um, as you know, it’s like such a big rippling effect, so.. What would you what would you say, Alison?

ALISON: I guess, like fous, it would be like, sort of allowing, uh, to spotlight, you know, we have people that make lasagna for their neighbor, and then we have somebody like you, and then we have, like, someone that makes a you matter card or, you know, and passes them out. And then we have, like, Val Kilmer, do you know what I mean? So we’re trying to show a spectrum, because sometimes I feel like all the big stuff gets highlighted, which is beautiful. But I really think that these small, not small, um, quieter warriors are so important too, you know, and so that’s we’re really just trying to get more listeners and more people.

CHAZ: So one of the projects that I’m working on now is directing my first movie. It’s a documentary called, Wellness Warrior, and it’s about Deborah Szekely , who is the founder of the Rancho La Puerta Spa and the Golden Door Spa. She started it when she was 18 years old. She’s 102 years old now, and she still lectures once a week in Tecate, Mexico, at Rancho La Puerta. And I’m so excited about this because she also talks about going out and just doing things and being good. And she talks about making a friend, and she talks about reinventing herself every ten years. And when she was 90 years old, she said she called herself, she said, from 90 to 100. I want to be the wellness warrior. I want to encourage people to take their health into their own hands and to start doing things. So when she was 100, I said, now that you’re 100, what is your what do you think that you want to do? And I thought she was going to say, well, now that I’m 100 I don’t have much time. But that’s not what she said. She said, if you’re healthy when you’re 100, you’re likely to live at least 20 more years. So I have to start thinking about what I’m going to do from age 100 to 110. And she said, the most one thing to do is make sure you always introduce young people into your life. So as your friends die out, you still have more friends.

ALISON: I love that.

JEAN: I love that too. I have a couple of girlfriends that that have passed on, and they were in their late 90s and they were people would say, Mary, what keeps you so young?, and she was like 101 when she passed away.. And she said, I surround myself with young people.

CHAZ: Yes, yes…

ALISON: Chaz, when you’re doing that, we would love to talk to you again.

CHAZ: Okay. All right.

ALISON: Maybe even with her. Like, we would love that. We would love to, you know, whatever…. If that could work out…

JEAN: Yes, we would love that.

CHAZ: Okay, I will try to put that together, because what I’m doing..  the film is, actually the short of it is going to debut at the Chicago Film Festival October 26th.

ALISON: Congratulations.

CHAZ: So Deborah will be there and then three other people from the movie. Norman Lear, you know, passed away when he was 100. He’s in the film, but I have the late, one of the ladies who started La Leche League for you know, woman who  nurse (breast-feed), Marion Thompson- she’s going to be there. She’s in her 90s. And I have another woman in her 90s who’s going to be there. Who  started this company with her daughter, and her daughter’s running it. And these women are so dynamic. I’m so excited to have them there. So maybe when  I have them all together, maybe we can do do something and we can all talk about.

ALISON: I would love that.

CHAZ: They’re all women who, like you, look for the good in the world. All three of them said, that’s what you do, look for the good. Highlight the good. Spotlight the good. Spotlight the people who are doing things that you want to see happen in the world.

ALISON: Right.

CHAZ: Anyway. Thank you.

ALISON: You’re inspiring and I love… I just really, am so grateful that you did this. Thank you so much. Thank you, Marlene! So really, Chaz, congratulations. You’re a little… you’re a spitfire.

JEAN: Yeah. You’re a force for good.

CHAZ: Yes. Thank you. As we all are…So thank you

ALISON: We’ll talk again. Okay. Have a great day.

JEAN: It was so great to meet you.

ALISON: Bye.

CHAZ: Bye bye.

JEAN: Oh, that was so nice.

ALISON: Wasn’t she… You know, she’s smart and on it. And her energy is so great. And I really enjoyed the book. Like, it’s such a, it’s such a nice read.

JEAN: Yeah. I think it speaks to the power of parables. You know, hearing stories, seeing them on movies. And then, you know, even if it’s not this exact same situation you’re going through, you can as she speaks about empathy, you can put yourself in someone else’s shoes and go, oh, you know what? I get it. I don’t… I get it. I can release my judgment around something.

ALISON: And, you know, I like the fact that she was so inquisitive and asked us some things.

JEAN: Yes,

ALISON: That really speaks to her and her curiosity and her wanting to just be very present.

JEAN: Very much so. And I loved when I said about you being a caregiver and how much compassion you have. She totally chimed in Alison. And she jumped on my bandwagon and was like, yes.  You can totally feel that about you. You’re very deeply compassionate.

ALISON: That that literally almost made me cry. I got so emotional because I felt like someone was like inside me, seeing me, you know what I mean?

JEAN: Like that’s intimacy.

ALISON: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.  It was very, very much intimacy. And that really moved me that she kind of stopped and said, can I ask you a question,… Like that… I think it’s very interesting when— because I’m very curious and I really do love people and I love asking them things, and it’s so funny when someone asks me something back… You know, it’s like I’m not prepared.

JEAN: Well, it showed me the fact that she acknowledged your compassion. I mean, I see it on a day to day basis, and here she just intuits your deep, beautiful heart, Alison….  and it takes someone,  well the fact that she wrote a book like this, devoted to these qualities of of love. I think they all fall under the umbrella of love. You know that she she sees it in another.

ALISON: So I have to hug you. I don’t even care. I’m hugging you. There you go.

ALISON: And I feel the same.

JEAN: Okay, that’s enough now. Okay. Alison. All right.

ALISON: I feel the same way, Jeannie about you… Were very, you know, having a friend, having companions and just a sense of community. And I felt like I really knew her in a way, it just was was a great time.

JEAN: So that was so please pick up a book of, um, the book, “It’s Time To give a FECK” , because we really enjoyed FECKing around with Chaz.

ALISON: That’s exactly right. It’s time to give a FECK –  elevating humanity through forgiveness, empathy, compassion, and Kindness” by Chaz Ebert. Yeah, really fantastic.

JEAN: Right so…

ALISON: Well, have a beautiful day. And do do something sweet for yourself.

JEAN: Yeah. And just smile at someone.  that’s all you got to do. Just smile.

ALISON: Say hello….All right. Bye.

JEAN: Bye.

Jean: I said hi first.

Alison: Hi. Uh, Jean’s going to say hi now.

Jean: I just did.

Alison: I know, you were excellent. Good job.

Jean: So you’re alone this morning or this afternoon at your home?

Alison: It’s so different because my husband’s at a fitting for a commercial, and my son is teaching kids. Um, I think it’s robotics today or something at a little school, so. Yeah. It’s so nice.

Jean: You have the afternoon to yourself.

Alison: I’m dancing around and, like. Yeah, just doing my bits. It’s very good. And you’re. What are you doing? Today you’re going to do. You’re going to go. You’re going to be busy, right?

Jean: Yeah. I’m going to get my hair colored this afternoon. And I finished some work on our podcast.

Alison: I love that.

Jean: So, uh, now we’re getting ready to interview Henry Shukman.

Alison: And, you know, okay. So do you meditate?

Jean: Not consistently.

Alison: No. Me neither. And I used to be more consistent. And his book, Original Love, is all about the power of opening yourself up to meditation, to awareness, to love. And, um, I’m really enjoying the book.

Jean: Yeah, It is such a beautiful book, you know? Yeah. So this is going to be a great interview. We’re so blessed to have this gentleman on our podcast.

Alison: That’s right. And then, um, and then I’m going to try to meditate more.

Jean: Same. And he’s got a great app called The Way. And I did download it, I love it, it’s so easy to use and I really love it.

Alison: Really?

Jean: I know I said that, but..

Alison: Will you show me?

Jean: Yeah, I’ll show you. Sure.

Alison: All right…Great. Okay, so here’s Henry.

Henry : Howdy. Howdy.

Jean: Hi,

Henry : Great to meet you guys. Thanks for having me on the show.

Jean: Henry, we are so, we are so excited to have you on our show. And, um, I just wanted to say how beautiful your book is. Oh, it’s absolutely gorgeous. And if you wouldn’t mind, can we just start off with with two questions? Um, why did you write this stunning book on meditation, and how did you come up with the perfect title, Original Love?

Henry : Oh, thank you so much. Okay, I’ll tell you, I was, um, about four years ago, right at the start of Covid. Actually, just before the start of Covid, I’d been doing a really busy round of teaching in Europe and America. And I live in New Mexico, even though I’m a I’m a Brit and I went up to stay in a cabin that some friends of mine have up in the mountains, way up in the north of New Mexico under these 200 foot cliffs. It’s incredibly beautiful place called Brazos. And I was going to just rest, hike a bit, you know, hang with my friends and just take it easy. And instead, the first morning, I had a cabin to myself, you know, they they had their own place as well up there. And the first morning I was making coffee and I was making my oatmeal, and this sentence came to me and I just had to write it down. And basically for the next 12 days, I filled four of those yellow pads with just freehand and and it wasn’t like I was writing all the time, but every day, maybe 4 or 5 hours, just like nonstop. It was like taking dictation. And and I realized that I was kind of trying to sum up everything that I learned and been actually trying to share without realizing it, exactly, in the ten years I’ve been teaching meditation, and in the 30 years or so that I’ve been practicing meditation myself.

Henry : And so it just kind of poured out of me. But I realized that it it made sense because it was kind of a it was kind of what I had learned in terms of healing and this thing we call awakening, you know, and like coming in a deeper presence, deeper and deeper and realizing how much we’re part of the world and not separate from it. And so it just kind of came out of me and I felt, oh my God, this is just a it was fun writing that, you know, but I don’t think there’s anything to it. And then I spent maybe a year typing it and editing it and cutting it and writing new stuff. And then I thought, well, I’d better show it to somebody. So I showed it to my wife, who’s not usually a fan of, I mean, you know, she’s kind of semi interested in meditation, but not the same way I am. And she said, man, this is this is great, this is great. This is what we’ve been waiting for. And then I showed it to another friend and he really liked it. And so, you know, basically it came I got around to sort of, uh, sharing it with an editor and an agent and, and boom, it took off like that. Now I’ve just forgotten. What was the other question?

Jean: Oh, so it was come up with the title originally the title.

Henry : The title, the title. Yeah. I’m so glad you asked me that, because basically, you know, I know as a teacher of this stuff that I’ve noticed a lot of people have feelings of unworthiness, feelings of shame. You know, it’s so common, you know, and often, you know, when people start meditating, you know, to whatever extent they want it in their lives, little hits through the day or whatever it might be. Just a little taste now and then. Often they just don’t find it comfortable because they hit up against this sense of unworthiness and even worthlessness. And it’s tragic. And I don’t know whether this is true or not, but I suspect some of it might come from the old Christian idea of original sin, that we’re somehow born bad, you know? And I’m not a theologian, so I can’t speak to the wisdom of that as an idea. But just on the face of it, I think it’s a terrible idea, you know?  and so I said, well, damn it, I’m going to I’m going to put my idea out there, which is original love. It’s like we’re born loving beings. And, you know, there’s a lot of research now in neurology and neuroscience that, yeah, we’ve got deep wiring for caring and sharing. It’s deep in us, you know. And yeah, it’s true. We can also be really aggressive and violent. But it doesn’t take a lot to open up what we’ve already got, which is a deep capacity for loving and, you know, of course, loving each other and other beings and loving this world. But even more than that, I think there’s a kind of, you know, this is maybe a bit woo woo, but a kind of fundamental love that is just present. And we don’t always feel it, for sure, but we can learn to feel it more. And that’s my mission, is to help people discover that they are already loved, whatever they do, there’s like an original love. So that that’s the title.

Alison: Wow. Well, we can wrap, we can end on that note. No, it was, it was it was perfect.

Jean: So beautiful. And and, uh, the person that wrote your foreword, you know, he he nailed it also in, in, um, in conjunction with Original Love, he talks about being homesick, like there’s this chronic homesickness… Isn’t it so true if we just remember, if we can fall back into our original love that really is so powerful.

Alison: And release like the longing of feeling, of longing and lack and fear. Yeah.

Henry : Exactly. And, sorry- go ahead.

Jean: No, Please you.

Henry : Well, I was just going to say that like that, that just the little tiny hits of that original love. Tiny little micro doses, you know, here and there, looking at a sunset, just, uh, even something as simple as just actually taking the time to just watch the stream of water coming out of the kitchen tap. It’s beautiful. If we just stop a moment of hit, pause a moment, and those little tiny micro doses of the love of this world that we’re in, the fact that it exists, you know that, that is the that is the healing, the balm that heals, our lack, our sense of being alienated and separate. You know?

Alison: You know, loneliness is considered an epidemic now. And I felt that your book, even though meditation is solitary. It, it it tapped into allowing us to heal that loneliness. Can you explain that dichotomy a little bit?

Henry : Yes. I think, you know, a lot of people, they take up meditation, mindfulness because they’ve heard it’s good to do and they think they’ve got to. Basically, it’s all about me and my mindfulness on my own, and it can seem even lonely. You know, I got to do reps at the gym and I got to do breath reps in my mindfulness, you know, and I think that’s wrong on a few levels. One is like actually part of the whole purpose of Meditation is to discover how connected we are. We are totally connected all other all other humans, we basically have the same equipment. We got the same human mind, same human heart, same human body, more or less by and large, you know, we’ve got the same emotion system, you know, and actually we share that with all the mammals. There’s some research that all mammals have seven emotions. They all feel, whether you’re a bat or a blue whale or a human being. There’s seven emotions we share. I mean, to me that blows my mind, but it’s it’s like it’s how we’re not alone, and in meditation, we’re discovering more and more the, the connectedness that we’re just kind of made of, you know, our very bodies as its molecules and atoms and subatomic particles, just like everything else in this world. And, you know, they’ve come to this form that is my body and my brain and all that. But it’s made of the same stuff as the whole planet, you know?  so the more, the more we just tap into a sense of connectedness. When we’re doing our mindfulness, we can really discover it and we can- there are practices for recognizing it more clearly. You know, the really and it comes home, we get these hits. Wow. I really am not separate like I thought, you know, and it’s it’s such a beautiful thing to discover.

Jean: Yes, I, I totally agree with you because I think what you present in your book is that is exactly what you said. Meditation is not, it also like this serious alone, it you actually make it feel very, um… You actually say it’s a good thing for you to sit and be still and quiet, and it’s good for the people around you. Yeah. I thought that was so great, Henry. And, yeah, you really take the seriousness out of meditation.

Henry : I think it’s supposed to be nice, right?

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: Yes.

Jean: Like, I look forward to my coffee or my tea, and it’s just not a thing like to check off on your to do list.

Henry : That’s right. It’s, it’s a, it’s a little moment for you, for us to be with ourselves, you know, and, and it’s about a kind of self-kindness, you know, because when we tap into self-kindness, I’m going to I’m going to be with myself and give myself a little bit of time. It may only be three minutes. That’s okay. But it’s time just to be with my very own being, you know? And and that is like a nourishment. So when we then, you know, go to the kitchen table and it’s morning and maybe I’m a bit grumpy or something, but no, I just stopped for a moment. And like, I’m grateful to see my wife and my children have all left home. I see the two of them, but occasionally they’re around or friends come by or whatever. I’m more open because I’ve got that little bit of connection to my own deep, deeper being, and therefore I can, i’ve got more to share with others and my colleagues and and team at work. You know? There’s there’s more, i’m more ready to be open, you know.

Alison: You know, I, I liked this book so much because I felt that I’m not like you. Like I would meditate and then I’d fall off. I’d say, oh, I got that. And then I’d fall off the, you know? And I had convinced myself, I’m not good at this. I’m never going to get to that end. Peace.

Jean: Quiet my mind.

Alison: And I like that you were like, there is no end game here. Like it isn’t about, you know, it’s not the price is right. This is just, you know, just be quiet, you know?

Henry : Yes, yes, yes.

Alison: I found so liberating. I thought, oh, I can do that, you know, because I think the idea of awakening has been so ingrained as, as, like you got to get there. Can you tell us what you, what you’re feeling of awakening is?

Henry : Yeah. I’d put it like this. Um, it’s possible to go through little shifts of many kinds, and one kind is when this weird thing can happen, and many people have tasted it without meditating, ever. It’s a human capacity where we suddenly just discover this different sense of things, where our sense of being a separate person suddenly goes quiet, and we just feel we’re part of everything, and we truly belong in a much more radical way than we normally realize. So that’s awakening. Great. Fine. Good. But there’s and, you know, that would be a deep taste of original love from my perspective. But there’s so many kind of more ordinary ways that we can taste the same original love. Just a moment of like, hey, I’m not feeling so good, you know? And I’m just going to take a minute to just check in with myself and just notice. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Of course. You know, my son’s having a hard time and I’d forgotten. Or my coworker is going in for an operation or something. I’ve even it’s not in the top of my mind, but my body knows…  and then I just give myself a moment and I realize, oh, yeah, I’m. I’m a little troubled about that, you know? And it’s because so often we feel, and I’m speaking from my I should speak for myself, so often when I don’t feel so good, I don’t want to know about it.

Henry : My first impulse is to distract myself. You know, I might just pick up the phone because it’s anything not to notice this uncomfortable feeling. So I’m sort of saying, hey, that’s very understandable, but actually, let’s flip it and instead give ourselves a little bit of attention and a little bit of love and a little bit of, yeah, loving awareness and then I can be with a difficult feeling. Now I’m saying this because while awakening that discovery of a great unity that we’re part of is a real thing, and meditation can help with that. But it also happens out of the blue, you know, without in whatever circumstances, you know, um, it’s not the only game in town. It’s like, it’s not like we should be aiming for that. It’s because right here, now, we can find tastes of this original love. And anyway, even if people have one of those big sort of shifts in, you know, cosmic unity and all that stuff, they’re going to still, it’s like, it’s not like life’s over. They’re still going to be doing the daily grind. And yeah, they know they’ve seen this thing that’s different and it’s fantastic. But actually to really live an ordinary life that’s full of care and love. That’s the real, if there’s an end game, it’s the endless game of trying to live more aware and lovingly.

Jean: Oh, that’s so beautiful.

Alison: So thank you for sharing that. That’s beautiful.

Jean: Do you, uh, Henry, do you feel that the climate of our consciousness now is more ready to receive a book like, As Beautiful as yours? Because I certainly do. I feel that when the outer world is more chaotic, we must go within to find our true ground. So do you notice that?

Henry : That is so beautifully put. I you know, my feeling is like this, that that I believe that I do. I think and I think it seems like things are kind of hotting up, both geo geo climate wise and social society in society. It seems like they’re heating up and and more and more people are recognizing, hey, this isn’t right. You know, we’ve got to we’ve got to change the way we interact with each other. We’ve got to change the way we interact with our beloved mother, this planet, you know, and I do think that there’s something about things getting maybe worse that can actually be positive, that it makes it a bit more urgent and there’s more pressure to change. And I feel there’s an explosion going on of awareness, because if you look at like, you know, I started I started on this path I’ve been on in my mid early to mid 20s, i was 24 actually, And and I was, um, I was a little bit fringe, you know, to be meditating regularly. Yeah, a little bit weird, you know, and and now, you know, the numbers are staggering. It’s like maybe 150 million US adults have meditated. You know, that’s pretty mind blowing. And maybe somewhere between 20 and 50 million try,  to do it regularly. That’s spectacular. And so I’m like saying, hey, if you’re doing that anyway, let’s make it nicer. Yeah. You know, and let’s bring, let’s bring in some of the sort of, you know, the more the kind of, you know, the, the most beautiful stuff that you can find in, in your little bit of quiet time every day.

Alison: That’s that’s wonderful. Can you explain to me one question? Um, you talk about a communal imagination in your book. And I’m wondering, is that the same thing as sort of a collective unconscious? And, uh, can you describe that a little bit? Because I think a lot of I’m just seeing sensing that more and more these days.

Henry : Yes. You know, I’m not an expert on it, but I would say it probably is basically the same as that idea of a collective unconscious that like, if we go kind of a little deeper into our own awareness, our own consciousness, we start to get to these sort of layers that just everybody has, you know, and I think it was Jung, the great psychologist, who came up with the idea of the collective unconscious. And I think one of the things that gave him the idea was he was doing this research into shamanism around the world, and he found that, you know, Inuit shamans were encountering all these different entities and, you know, animal spirits or whatever on their shamanic journeys. So were shamans in Siberia, so were shamans in Brazil. And some of the old Celtic shamans of the olden days reported the same thing. It’s like, how can that be? You know, these totally different, uh, geographic zones, but they get deep enough. They’re finding the same stuff. And so he came up with this idea, I believe this is the origin that, you know, there’s a level in our very own minds, each of us, where we share a kind of, I don’t know, some call it the power realm. You know, I think it’s religious in a way, like all the saints and the power figures in African religion and in South American religion, they I think they’re all down there probably, you know, doing their own stuff.

Jean: And that was such a good question, Alison. So, Henry, I’m really enjoying, not only did I am I loving reading your book, as I’ve said, uh, your app, your meditation app called, The Way. This is so great. I can’t thank you enough because it’s easy. It is fun. You give so many wonderful tips and let’s try it this way. And, um, and now I talk to my friend Mark, who I’m like, oh, I did my sit this morning, and, uh, and I love your app.

Henry : Oh, I’m so happy to hear it. Thank you. You know, the you know, the thinking for us was behind it was just, in a nutshell, was like this… Our research showed that there’s 3000 meditation apps and basically all of them, yeah, isn’t that something? You know that right there says something, you know. Yeah. But but basically they’re all typically they’re like libraries of great content. And so you’ve got, you’ve got maybe 100 or 2000 courses to choose from. And not everybody likes that. They get a decision fatigue or decision paralysis. Like which one should I do. So we decided to just go all in. It’s a big gamble on a totally different method and approach, which is like there is one pathway and you follow and every you, every time you’ve done one sit, boom, the next one loads up for you. You just hit one button and it’s going to lead you on a long journey into some of the things we’ve been talking about. You know, ten minutes a day is what it asks. But you you don’t have to spend ten minutes figuring out what to do. It’s just boom, ten minutes you’re in, you know, straight away you’re in.

Jean: Like, a little gift every day. I, you know, you look forward to- oh, what what is Henry going to present today? And, um, oh, Henry, I did want to ask you, i was looking at my notes for a second here, just going back to mindfulness, because I was always under the impression that meditation was another word for mindfulness. And, um. And maybe we did talk about this a little bit in our interview, but, um, when you talk about absorption, can you talk about that in

Alison: The Four Inns were so fascinating.

Jean: You give four inns –  mindfulness, support, absorption and awakening. Um, but can you talk a little bit about absorption?

Henry : Yeah, sure. I’ll just let me just say like a little bit of framing of the whole thing. Like basically most people think meditation is just mindfulness, right? But in the, in the wisdom traditions that I’ve trained in, mindfulness is viewed as like a foundational practice, but it’s not actually the end. There’s more we can do. And mindfulness would be basically being more present, being more aware of what we’re experiencing right now. Like right now while we’re talking, I can feel the soles of my feet. I can feel my seat. You know, I’m aware of the room around me and your beautiful faces and and I can still talk. So I’m aware of more aware of now, you know. And that’s just great. And that may be all somebody wants. But there is more. There’s like the connectedness and support in the second in, or in the app, actually, we call it zones. Zones one, two, three, four. And then absorption the third zone. That is when there’s a gear shift when we’re sitting and, you know, instead of it being like, hey, I’m trying to stay aware, I’m trying to stay focused on whatever it is, the breath or sounds around me or something.

Henry : There’s this weird shift, and suddenly it just becomes easy and it becomes beautiful and kind of clear and calm but energized, and it just feels so good. And I think that’s like a flow state, you know, that when athletes and musicians and artists, I think basically everybody gets into flow states at times when that suddenly, you know, it’s kind of effortless and we feel very aware without having to try at it all. And it’s sort of beautiful. You know, there’s stories of like, basketball players in the midst of some difficult play, and suddenly it’s like time almost disappears and they don’t know how they did it, but they did this super difficult thing. Yeah, it’s kind of it’s kind of like that with, you know, we can taste that in being quiet with ourselves. And then it’s even more sweet because it’s just you don’t need anything. You don’t need a basketball court, you don’t need a violin. You don’t need to be listening to music. It’s just you, you know, with yourself and your own being. And suddenly it becomes this timeless, beautiful, peaceful, but energized awareness.

Alison: Do you ever do you ever get crabby when you don’t get a parking spot or something because you seem so calm, like, does it,  do you have that kind of stuff still going on in your life or are you…? And then if you do, what are like, what’s a tip right then when you feel like or maybe you don’t?

Henry : I Would say , I’m definitely a work in progress very much, you know, um, but I, it’s true that it’s, I do so way less than I used to. That is really true. And I think the, the secret of it, is not minding.. It’s just not minding. And for me that’s come through basically my heart has got more and more open over the years. And some of that’s because of this practice, I think, and some of it is because of different kinds of heartbreak I’ve just been through that, you know, has made me have, you know, were very difficult at the time, but somehow they helped to open my heart more. I believe in heartbreak as a as a gateway, you know, and we don’t wish it on anyone. But it can really it can, it can it can kind of make life richer in the long run, you know. So I believe I tend to like anyway, I want to be more a little bit more helpful. Let’s see. So a tip, let’s say I’m getting like…You know. Well I might I might go through a little bit of a.. And then I can just switch gear and like, okay there’s a bigger view. I might be 5 or 10 minutes late and actually it’s going to be a good meeting anyway, or whatever it is that I’m, you know, doing or if I’m, if it’s not a meeting and I’m just going to the store and I’m going to be home ten minutes later, it’s really is it a big deal? No, it’s not a big deal. There’s a bigger picture. There’s always a bigger picture.

Alison: Right. And I love the idea of not minding. And that really is a hard thing, because I think sometimes my brain likes getting on that horse and riding it around town, you know? But I think that’s right. My heart will be like, yeah, really?

Jean: Yeah. And to me, what you’re saying, Henry, is that, you know, just don’t judge the present, you know, that was your experience.  Oh wow, that had a trigger for me. And just letting that be, what that was. Um.

Henry : That’s that’s beautifully put. Exactly. Don’t judge. Yeah.

Jean: And and that’s so easy. hahahah

Henry : Well, I’ll tell you for me, you know, what I feel is always allowing. Yeah. Allowing. You know, there was a teacher who said to me, at the start of a retreat, he said, well not just to me, to the whole retreat. He said, there’s three things that matter most on this retreat is a multi-day, deep retreat. You know three things. Allow, allow, allow. Mhm. And that really helped me and has stayed with me.

Jean: Yeah.

Henry : You know, can I be a person who allows more than his inclination is. Allows what arises. You know and I’m I’m learning. I’m I’m still on the path. Totally. You know.

Alison: I think some of it’s age too.

Henry : That’s probably true. You know, we just…

Jean: As we do, you know, have more life under our belt.

Henry : Yeah. Yes.

Jean: I think we just like we as they say, you know, you choose your battles and.

Henry : yes, yes. As a young man, I just flail into every battle I could, you know?

Alison: That’s right. Yeah. It’s like us. That’s exactly right.

Speaker4: Yes.

Jean: And I have a dear friend who always says, Jean, there’s power in the pause. Yeah.

Henry : That is so wise. I love that that’s that’s summing up what I’ve been trying to say in three words.

Alison: Power in the pause. Yeah. I love when you describe the tapestry of life. And you begin to see that there’s this, you want to live between the stitches?

Henry : Yes, yes, yes…Letting the light,  the light comes through a bit more.

Alison: That made me, that brought tears to my eyes for some reason, some of this book, really some of the questions you asked and some of the ways you touched me, evoked an emotional response that I wasn’t even aware of. Like, you know, you can watch a sappy TV commercial and, you know, it’s manipulative in that way and you’re going to be crying. But this all of a sudden I’d be like, oh, like, I was really taken aback by it and I just got chills… You did a really good job of that.

Henry : Well, thank you so much for sharing that. I’m really happy to hear it, because in a way, as a writer of this particular book, that’s that’s what I probably wanted more than anything, you know? But I didn’t know whether I was doing it because the whole thing came out. So, so sort of by itself, you know, and I sometimes wondered, maybe it came out of that collective unconscious we were talking about, or at least sort of a deeper place somehow. Yeah. So I had no idea really how… I still have no idea how it’s really going to affect people, but I’m happy to hear when it does.

Alison: Some of the questions that you you’ll just all of a sudden in the middle of a chapter, start to ask these like a series of questions, and I go, oh my God, you’re blowing my mind, henry, this is great. Do you know? Like it’s really… And like, the idea of a koan. Is that how you say it?

Henry : Yes.

Alison: That’s fascinating to me.

Henry : Yeah. These Koans are these little questions and phrases that are in the Zen world. Yeah. And a lot of them are, you know, 1200, 1500, 2500 years old. And and they’re often really strange. You know, there’s a famous one. What is the sound of one hand, you know. And what does that mean? What? I don’t even know what that means. But sometimes, you know, people can just have that in the back of their mind. They’ve read it somewhere or heard it, and all of a sudden one day they just get some little ah, wow, there’s some wisdom in there that I can’t fully explain, but I feel it. Yeah, it’s sort of it stops me in my tracks in some way. Yeah. And my ordinary path through life gets just interrupted. Paused…Just pause.

Alison: It’s Pointing to something?

Henry : I believe so, yeah. Something about who we are.

Alison: It’s. It’s like your brain goes. Wait, what? You know, they’re really interesting. They’ve really stuck with me. That was really fun. Thank you for those.

Henry : Oh. Thank you. I’m so glad that that was your experience with them. That’s what I hope. Yeah.

Alison: Oh, good. Yeah.

Jean: Well, Henry, I, you know,  we’ve sort of reached our time even though there is no time…hahah..  Uh, well, we would like to ask you, what does inside wink mean to you? That’s the name of our podcast, so what does that..

Alison: What do You think it means?

Henry : I think it means, that there’s a little bit of a joke being played on us in this life, that we think we’re so important as me. And actually, we are important and we are precious. But it’s not the me that I normally think. It’s like we’re all ready, okay? We’re always already okay… That’s the kind of cosmic joke that we get caught up in not realizing.

Alison: That’s that’s a great answer. Thank you for that. That’s a great answer. That’s true. Wow. It’s amazing because that’s so you. That answer is perfectly from you. So thanks. That’s great. And do you like pie, cake or ice cream? We’re just curious.

Henry : You know, I had a brain injury about about four years ago and had a post-concussion. And I’m better now, but I can’t have gluten and I can’t have sugar, at least not a lot of it. So I’m not great, i mean, I’ll tell you what I would love of is a gluten free, sort of fruit based pie of some kind. You know?

Alison:  yes, we knew about your brain injury, and Beth told us that, and it just is, um, that was very powerful. And I’m so glad that you’re feeling better.

Jean: Yes. Henry.

Henry : Yeah. Thank you. I’m really kind of happy it happened because it… You know, they say the longest journey is from the head to the heart. Mhm. And that head injury actually sped up my journey.

Alison: Wow.

Henry : Because I could, I could live here in my heart better than I could in my head. And I hope I can keep that now that my head’s getting better.

Alison: Yeah. Yeah.

Jean: Exactly. And and isn’t that our mission? Our soul’s mission is to live from our hearts. Yeah. And the mind is helpful,  but it is living from our hearts,  and you certainly have given us a beautiful roadmap

Alison: with Original Love. Thank you so much. And thank you for, thank you for talking with us. We really, I feel so great right now. Thanks to you, so thank you.

Henry : Well, so do I, thanks to you guys- hahahah

Jean: This has been such a treat. And thank you.

Alison: So we’ll stay in touch.  I can’t wait to read your next book, whatever comes out next time.

Henry : Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So good to be with you guys. Thanks so much for having me.

Alison: Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Have a beautiful day.

Henry : You too. Bye bye.

Alison: That was the best interview –  Henry and Original Love, I just…. Yeah, he was amazing.

Jean: He is amazing. And I love that he brings a new, for me anyway, he brings a new, um, inspired desire to to start meditating again because, I used to meditate pretty regularly and then I, I didn’t do it, but I think he brings a new yea-ness to it,  not such a seriousness to it, you know.

Alison: And that it’s such a, a generous gift you can give to yourself, which is what it used to feel like a chore. Yeah. Like, okay, you got to do it. Okay? Now you got to do five minutes, you know? But he is just very loose about it and very relaxed. And you can just feel his, he thinks, he loves it and you can feel that enjoyment.

Jean: 100%. And a big thing for me is when he would say, you know, celebrate the minute you notice that you have wandered off into thought. That’s the point of celebration because you already know. Okay, now I just go back to my breath or one of the other pointers he gives you to to tap to bring back your awareness to your breath. Um, I feel so fortunate to have had this interview.

Alison: I’m going to I’m going to remember that, and just I’m celebrating right now that my brain went off track.

Jean: because my brain is like 4th of July. That’s right. I should be applauding like every…

Alison: Woohoo! Here we go with our brains. Well, thank you so much. And Original Love is really worth it, and his app. Yeah.

Jean: His app is great. I’ve been using it. So thank you. Henry.

Alison: Thank you so much and we hope you have a great day.

Jean: Bye.

Alison: Bye.

Jean: Hi, there.

Alison: Okay, let’s try it again.

Jean: Let’s do it. We’re going to do it right this time.

Alison: That’s right. We are. We’re going to do it perfectly.

Jean: The ninth time is the charm.

Alison: It’s the ninth inning. This is all they get, you know? And we’re trying to make it perfect because the people we’re talking to are specialists in podcasts.

Jean: That’s right. The name of Lauren’s company is Tink Media. So, um, we get to interview Lauren Passell.

Alison: And Devon Andrade.

Jean: Very nice.

Alison: Isn’t that perfect? I love that name.

Jean: It’s beautiful. Well, both these people are beautiful and they are fertilizer for your podcast.

Alison: You know, I love that. Not the manure kind, though. The perfect, good, juicy fertilizer kind.

Jean: I didn’t know there was juicy fertilizer?

Alison: Yes there is. Take it from me. I’m from the Bronx, I know gardening.

Jean: Okay. Um, so, oh, of course you do.  haha –What was I thinking? I don’t know why i thought you were from the Midwest?

Alison: hahah- In those cornfields, I’d get lost. These two are so wonderful. They helped us with inside wink, and they gave us such great tips and ideas and got us on a more solid track, don’t you think?

Jean: Absolutely. I feel a sense of like, renewed passion for inside wink.

Alison: Me too. And I feel very confident. And I think because they give that off, they give off confidence and kindness and just they’re very accessible, right?

Jean: Yeah. And they make you feel you’re on the right track. But just here’s a couple of little tweaks to do.

Alison: So here they are Lauren and Devin.

Alison: We did it.

Jean: Yay!

Alison: Hi there. Hi, Lauren and Devin. How are you doing?

Lauren: Oh, it’s so good to see you. Hi. Thanks for having us.

Speaker2: great to see you.

Devin: Yes. Thank you so much.

Jean: We are  excited…. Really, this is a treat for us because you have been such a benefit to our podcast. And we can’t wait to share your wonderful organization, your company, Tink Media.

Alison: yes, we  have been so interested in you guys and we’ve done like a little bit of research and we’re interested in knowing why you think podcasts are so important right now? Like how many podcasts are there even millions of podcasts in the world? I don’t even — i don’t even know? Like everyone and their mother has a podcast and I’m wondering  why you think that is, and why is it important?

Lauren: Well, I think, and Devin will know the real answer, but I would say the number is humongous if you ask how many podcasts there actually are. But the number gets a lot, a lot smaller, when it’s how many are actually releasing episodes with, uh, on a regular basis and even smaller when it’s like how many people are actually caring about growth. That’s that’s actually a teeny number. But Devin, how would you answer that? Like that actually are putting thought into what they’re making? I think it’s a surprising number of people that just start one and you go and they have 1 or 2 episodes because they go and they go, whoa, this was harder than I thought, right? You can probably speak to that. But Devin, how would you answer that question?

Devin: I think I would answer it the exact same way. Like there are, there have been a lot that have released at least like 1 or 2 episodes, but the ones that are like consistently active and still putting out is not as high as some people like to joke that it is. So that’s why we also always tell people like, yeah, there’s a lot of podcasts out there, but there’s also still lots of space for more podcasts. So even though everyone and their mother has a podcast, don’t let that stop you. Because another thing I always hear too is like, how many books are there in the world? Oh, that’s how many new TV shows are even coming out. Like, I can’t keep up with those. But like all these other forms of media, there are so many to choose from. Podcasting is not different from that. I think people just pointed out with podcasting more because the barrier to entry isn’t as high. Like anyone can make a podcast, which I think is like a mostly a blessing, but can be a curse in some circumstances.

Lauren: Well, yeah. And also I think that means that there’s for listeners, there’s something for everyone, no matter what you’re looking for. There’s your community. Whoever you’re looking for, you’ll be able to find it because. Because the barrier to entry is low. You know, that means that whatever you’re looking for, it’s there.

Alison: Right, right.

Jean: So, Lauren, let’s talk a little bit about yourself. And can you tell us what got you so inspired to create this company, Tink Media?

Lauren: Well, I, I was a fan of podcasts before I worked in them. I worked in book publishing, but I was just a big fan and I think I started listening- i was injured on crutches, and I wanted something to listen to, um, because I liked reading and I was like, well, I want to do this, but I can’t read while I’m on crutches, so what am I going to do? Um, so. And then Serial blew up. Do you remember Sarah Koenig’s? Did you ever listen to Serial? Okay, so that happened shortly after. And that got me. Really? That became a moment. Um, Devin, were you a Serial person when it was happening or were you before Serial? What was your timeline?

Devin:  I was late to the Serial party. Like I probably listened in 2019. That’s so late.

Jean: I didn’t even get an invite to the Serial — to this breakfast party. I had no idea of this.

Lauren: It’s never too late, i was just recommending it to my mother because she loves true crime. And I was like,  it’s something I think anyone in podcasting should, should experience. But, um, you know, when I was at the book publishing company, I was not on the PR team, but the PR team would come up to me and say, Lauren, you love podcasts. We’re trying to get David Sedaris on some podcast to talk about his books. Can you pitch him? And I was like, yes, but why are you so bad at this? I’ve loved to do that. So originally I left. I loved that job. I was sad to leave, but I started this company because I thought, I think there’s something here. Um, just pitching authors to podcasts to get to talk about their books. That’s what my company originally was. And yes, I named it after Tinker Bell. I don’t know if we’ve talked about this yet. I’m a Disney nerd, and I never thought it would be anybody other than just me and my laptop. But, um, Devin was one of the first people I hired, and it really, I just needed somebody for this weird job. I was like, how do I even find people that love podcasts like I do? And I saw a tweet from Devin. I did not know Devin. I saw a tweet that one of my friends liked and it said, I wish someone could hire me to write about podcasts lol or something like that. And I DM’d Devin and I said, do you want to work for me? Because I just knew and it was one of the best decisions I’ve ever made in my entire life.

Alison: Oh, I love that. Did did you know that, Devin, that you were like that, that that whole that little tweak got you the job? Like, did you know that?

Devin: I did, honestly, I was in shock because it really it was one of those things that you. I tweeted it out. I like threw my phone on my bed and I was like, yeah, that’s just a random thing. You tweet. And then like, I went about my life and then I think maybe like the next day or next couple days, I get a DM and I’m like, Why is Lauren DMing me? Like, I knew who Lauren was. I loved her work. I loved what she was doing in podcasting. And I was I was like, what is happening? No, this can’t be real. But it’s I’m so glad that Twitter was still a thing then, because if it was Twitter now, I like, what if I never met Lauren? That would be devastating.

Lauren: Wow, don’t say that. Now I have to be really grateful for Twitter. It’s so true. And I the thing is, I think I like everyone that works at Tink. I don’t look for people that understand marketing or PR. I look for people that love audio and podcasts and Devin loves podcasts more than anyone I know, and that’s because I think I like it when, you know, our goal is always to grow podcasts. I don’t need people that understand marketing and PR. I want people who can look at other podcasts like a producer. I want them to have a producer hat on, and that’s what Devin thinks. Devin thinks like a producer because she’s a listener. She likes to think what makes podcasts work and what makes them good. So that’s why she’s so good at her job. And that’s why I could talk to her about podcasts forever.

Devin: I feel like that story, too. It feels like it was just, uh, like dumb luck. But I also know that it wasn’t because I had been, like, learning about podcast marketing and wanting to figure out what my place in the industry could be if it wasn’t going to be making podcasts. I was like, there’s so many out there that might need support and like finding their audiences, and I could help do that. So I was trying to learn about Lauren’s work to the point where, like Lauren, I was watching like any webinar that you did. I was reading your newsletter. I remember there was one time I was, I had signed up for one webinar. I forget what it was about and you and Ariel were doing one at the same time. I think you were doing like a live thing on Twitter, and I was like, well, I’ll go to the one I paid for. And then partway through the one I paid for, I was like, this isn’t really helpful. I know all this stuff. So I was listening to you on Twitter instead, while this other webinar was happening because I was like, I’m learning more from Lauren and Ariel right now. I didn’t.,

Lauren: I didn’t know that -Oh my goodness.

Alison: Well, Devin, what were you what was your job prior to this?

Devin: I worked in digital media production and content production at a college in Toronto. So I was as part of that, I was doing video editing, I was doing social media, I was doing web development. And because I was listening to podcasts, I was like, we should have a podcast, we should do audio stuff. And the school I worked at, you know, it also had a radio program and had a journalism program. So I was also like paying attention in those spaces to like, what is the podcast curriculum look like right now too? And I did end up teaching a podcasting course at the college and creating a podcasting course at the college. And so all of that together, I was like in the digital content production space. And then kind of during the pandemic, when I wasn’t as busy, I was learning more on the side, and that’s how I came across Lauren’s work and kind of transitioned into the podcast marketing space.

Alison: Oh, that’s great.

Jean: That is great… Can you share with us what are some of the services that Tink offers?

Lauren: You want to go? Devin..

Jean: what would you like to be known for at Tink?

Lauren: That really good question. Um, what do we like to be known for? Oh my gosh. Well, there’s I wonder. Yeah. I mean, basically we help podcasts grow. That’s what I would say the baseline is. But the and the way that we like to think about that is, you know, we think collaboration with other podcasts is what works. And it’s actually what makes me love my job so much because guessing is a really collaborative space. Um, so, you know, that means it’s a lot of it’s a lot of partnerships, a lot of the best thing, you know, sometimes someone will come to us and say, can you spend advertising? Can you buy ads for us? Will help. You know, we have $10,000 to spend. We’ll buy their ads. We can’ do all those things. Um, we can pitch, you know, to media. We can do all those things. But I think our favorite thing is, um, finding other podcasts. And this is going to sound kind of cheesy, but I feel like I’m going to save space. So, um, finding podcast friends, that’s what we call them. We call them podcast friends. And we that we think, what are the shows where the audience is going to align because we really think works is borrowing audiences from similar, you know, space, similar audiences and borrowing audiences from them, switching things.

Lauren: So, you know, that’s setting up a promo swap, which is a 32nd ad for a podcast that you hear on another podcast, and we swap those and, you know, so finding these podcast friends and then we pretend to put them on podcast play dates and we say, how are these podcasts going to work together? What is it- like when you look at each one and we say, what are they going to do together so that we get our client in front of the this other audience? And, you know, so that’s I think what works the most, it’s it’s the way to get your most you know, you can buy an ad if you want. You’re not going to get those organic, you know, that organic growth and you’re not going to find those perfect listeners. They’re going to come back over and over again and be your biggest advocate and tell all of their friends about you. And honestly, telling friends is the best way to grow a podcast.

Devin: If someone tells their friends about you. It truly is the best way.

Alison: I,love that. Yeah.

Jean: And I loved also Lauren, I think. I don’t know if it was you or Devin, but, you know, I’m. I have an Instagram account and and you were sharing with me that it’s not always about me just saying, hey, we have Ed Begley Jr on our podcast this week or it’s it’s more that you want to address the audience that do listen to podcasts. So it’s getting your podcast in the pool of people that are interested, just not randomly shouting out, hey, this is what I’m doing. But I guess that can help. Yeah, but it wasn’t it wasn’t your go to for our Inside Wing podcast.

Alison: Yeah, that was a real revelation to us. You were so kind and ,oving and generous. How do you keep that going? Dealing with all these podcast people like you must talk to a lot of people. And yet we felt that we were the only ones that you that you dealt with.

Devin: I mean, I, I, I can’t speak for our whole team, but I think that because our team loves podcasts so much, we love the people that we get to work with. So it’s it’s easy, like it’s never something we have to think about where it’s like, how do we make sure they feel like they’re our only client? It’s because, like you, you are, you know, even though we’re balancing all these different ones, we care about all of them so much sometimes, like almost to our own detriment, where we just get so invested in our work and like, we want podcasters to succeed so, so badly. Like we want to help this industry grow because it also like it is so new. There is still so much that can happen that will evolve, that will get better for the listeners and for the podcasters. And I think that our whole team, like we just really care about helping that happen for so many people. So it’s because we genuinely care. We’re really excited about working with podcasts like we do research all the time, and we just get to explore all the podcasts out there. And then when somebody comes to us and they want to grow their show, we get excited about the possibilities and sometimes we– if you’re on a call with us or a meeting with us, sometimes we will just like go off with ideas and possibilities because we get really excited in the moment because we see the potential. We’ve seen it in action and seen it work, so we believe in it. So I think that all of those pieces together make it kind of easy for us to have that vibe all the time. I don’t know, Lauren, what do you think?

Lauren: Yeah, and i heard, I feel like I heard someone explain it like we’re in a playground, like because we have all these tools to work with. So when we get a show, it’s like we’re, we’re we’re at the playground with the show. It’s like, what tools can we use? What can we go on in the playground that can be like, fun and like make it work? And also, we are having a lot of fun. We like each other. Um, that’s huge. And the other thing I will say is, you know, podcast marketing, there’s a lot of people making podcasts. As we said, there’s not a lot of people growing them. There’s not a lot of podcast marketing companies. So we’re really lucky that, you know, I mean, just we have there’s a lot of people that need our help, but we don’t get we don’t have to work with just anyone. We wanted to work with you because we like both of you and we really like your show. Um, we don’t if we if someone approaches us and we don’t think they’re a good fit, it doesn’t matter. We don’t. We tell them we don’t. This happens. We say we don’t think we’re a good fit for each other. We want to be happy, and we want to make sure that we can help someone grow so that if we don’t think it’s going to be a happy experience. We don’t want to have sleepless nights, we don’t want to be stressed, and we don’t want to not help someone succeed. And we don’t want to help a show grow that we don’t believe in or we don’t like. So we don’t work with those people. So we’re pretty happy with our client. We love our clients. We love our clients. That’s why. That is why.

Jean: I love that you love that. And you can so feel that, Lauren. And that speaks volumes to you being the CEO. And of course, Devin, you’re, um, you’re just such a beautiful light over at Tink. Can you, can you share some, like, 1 or 2 mistakes that you see podcasters.

Alison: That’s a good question.

Jean: Just one like 1 or 2.

Lauren: I’m going to start with a big quick one. And Devin, you and we can maybe do take turns, but this one’s just get it out of the way I. This is because it’s kind of funny. Podcasters often put a microphone on their cover art, and you don’t have to do that because that’s like, if you’re watching a movie, if you had a movie poster, you wouldn’t put like a film reel on it, you know what I mean? Like, we all know that it’s a podcast. We’re here. You know, when you’re looking at your app. So it’s we I can’t tell you. We do podcast therapy consulting. How many times I have to say, you don’t have to have a podcast, a microphone, and everyone goes, no, but mine is different. I do need it. And I’m like, think about it. Just think about it. You really don’t need a podcast microphone or your headphones. We get it.

Jean: We get that it’s audio.

Lauren: Yeah, yeah. We’re here.

Alison: That’s so funny.

Lauren: Yeah.

Devin: Oh, that’s a really good one. I kind of forgot about it too. But something else that comes to mind too, is that sometimes podcasters will come to us and they’ll say, I’ve never listened to another podcast before. And I mean, I can understand And if it’s not your favorite thing to do. But if you’re making a podcast, I think you should be listening to podcasts just to like, hear how other shows are doing it, to get ideas, to figure out what makes your show different or unique. And like if you like podcasting, you’ll like listening to podcasts, and all of that will spill over to your audience and to your show and just making it better. Um, so yeah, I feel like that is a big thing. Like everybody who’s ever written a book has also read a book. So if you make a podcast, you should listen to podcasts.

Jean: Yeah, that is true.

Alison: Yeah, that is very  true. I, I’m like you, I love podcasts and I think the reason I love it is because it gives me a sense of community. And I feel like, uh, especially during Covid, I just felt very connected in the world in a different way than TV, and I’m not sure why. Maybe because it’s like in your ear or in your head or something. Um, what do you think about the idea of podcasts and and community? Because I think right now we really need to feel safe and have a community in the world. What are your thoughts on that? Because you deal with so many podcasts.

Devin: Oh, this is like when podcasts feel like your friends like getting into like that parasocial relationship territory. But it’s it’s so true and it’s so strong. And I think you’re right, it is something to do with like them being in your ears and them being that close. But also the shows that create that sense of community are the ones that are balancing, you know, bringing value, bringing information, but also bringing themselves to the show. Like there are hosts of shows that when I found out they were not going to be running anymore, I cried. I like was, yeah, what what am I going to do on Tuesdays now when there’s not going to be a new episode? And I think it’s just because you feel that close to them. You hear them every week. For some of us, that could be more often than you hear, like your best friend’s voice. Like, that’s really, really powerful. And I think that’s what helps make podcasting so special. It’s kind of like maybe over said in the industry that the intimacy of podcasting makes it special, but it’s true. That’s why it gets said a lot. Um, but I think that is it doesn’t come automatically. It’s something you have to work on, like building that feeling with your audience. And it’s something that we’ve seen both of you do. The way that you bring your friendship to the show, that is what builds a community. That is what makes people feel like, yeah, I’m hanging out with my friends Allison and Jean. That is special.

Lauren: Yeah. You want in on the friendship? You really do. And yeah, I think, um, you know, when NPR canceled a few shows, there was like this burst, and we actually had to have a team meeting at Tink to ask if people were okay because we were so sad. And that’s something like, you know, like, that’s, um, and I think another thing kind of going back to something that people do wrong, I think in order to do that, you have to be consistent because you have to you have to be there for the listener because, you know, you have to be there for them. And that’s what what that’s what they, they need. That’s what I need as a because I’m more of a listener than a podcaster, I don’t we at Tink, we do everything but actually make the podcasts. So that’s why I don’t know all the tech stuff. So I’m a much bigger listener and I need the podcast to be there. For me, it’s like I feel, yeah, I feel like it’s, um, I feel like it’s I feel, um, the podcast that I love, they make me feel less alone. They make me feel seen. If I’m having a bad day, I know they’re going to be there. Yeah. It’s truly sometimes, um, I my I turned my husband into a podcast listener. I made him so we I forced it upon him. So now he’s a podcast listener.

Alison:  I love that.

Lauren: Sometimes I sit with him at dinner and I said, I say, where did you go today? What did you learn? What adventures did you go on? I almost can’t believe it’s most mostly free. You know that I can go into any world I want. It’s unbelievable. I never, ever take that for granted.

Alison: Right – yeah, I totally I totally agree with you. I have some podcasts that I feel like they know me well.

Lauren: Can you tell me a few of your your favorites?

Alison: Uh, well, I, I have always loved This American Life.

Lauren: It’s the best.

Alison: There is something about This American life. Even before it, you know, like it was on TV for a while. I’m really old, but it was like on TV for a while, and I love that. And I love, um, Roman Mars.

Devin: Oh my goodness. Yes.

Alison: I feel like I know, I feel like I know that guy. Like, I feel like I have no idea what he looks like, but like–

Lauren:  you’re so funny.

Alison:  I feel like I could bump into him, i wouldn’t recognize him, but I could definitely.

Lauren: But if he talked, if he talked, though, can you imagine if you’re a restaurant and you heard his voice and he…

Alison: I’d be like, oh, Roman. Roman.

Lauren: It’s funny you say This American Life,  because I do feel like This American Life, , there’s so many flashy new shows all the time. Right? And it’s like This American Life keeps on,  100% consistent.All This American Life is like there’s every single week. It’s there for you. And those some of those bright, shiny shows go away. Or even just like off season. But This American Life is there for you and it’s always the best. It is the best and so I always want to think, don’t forget about this wonderful show that has been there all along. It’s such a good answer.

Alison: And I love, you know, I love Rupert Spira’s podcasts and I love like like now I’m listening to Giggly Squad and they are so funny together.  it’s like you and I but in your 20s.

Jean: Because I think podcast the dynamic does change if it’s just one person that’s staying with the questions and then, you know, you have to be more courteous and let you know there’s an exchange when you have two people. You know, I think it’s actually a little in one way, I think it’s easier that that I have a partner. It’s like playing doubles tennis, like, you know, you’re not out there alone and you’re it’s not all on you. And then on the other side. It’s acknowledging Alison’s strengths and sort of I know this is something she’s going to. That’s the angle she’s going to take. Or um, you know, I’m going to be more this way, but I, I could not be more thrilled to be doing this podcast together ,ith you Alison.

Lauren: Well, not everybody can do it but it’s so natural with you two like, not everyone should do it, but I feel like it feels very right  because you have a good friendship. That’s if you have the friendship, you have the good base. Mhm.

Jean: Yeah that’s true.

Alison: Yes. Yes, yes. Have you guys met in person. Because Devin you’re in Toronto right? And Lauren where are you in New York.

Lauren: I just moved to Philadelphia a couple weeks ago.

Alison: Wow, I love Philadelphia. Have you seen each other in 3D?

Lauren: Devin came to New York, and I made her go to my favorite restaurant, Yeah, we got I got to hug . I think it was one of the longest hugs of my entire life.

Devin: Yeah, She was like, I’m not going to let go. I’m like, that’s okay. We met like last August was the first and only time we’ve met in person so far.

Lauren: We’ve got to do it again. Someone from our team is moving to Toronto and I’m so jealous. She tells me about it every day. She rubs it in my face. So. Yeah.

Devin: Yeah, we’re going to dinner tomorrow night. I’m sorry.

Alison: See? See what a different world we live in, right? That you guys can be so close and have only hugged each other one time, right? It’s kind of amazing.

Devin: It’s wild. And that’s like, with so much of our team has not met each other in person. But we feel so, so close. Like there are some times on like Friday at 5 p.m. we’re all like, well, I know we have to go for the weekend now, but I would, I just want to keep hanging out with all of you, you know, like that’s I can’t even imagine what it would be like if we were in an office together. It would. I don’t know if we could handle how good it would be.

Lauren: Wel, our our goal, our team goal, um, is never we always talk about our goals, and it’s never, like, money related or anything like that. It’s all human spirit, soul, person related. And right now we would love to plan a retreat where like that is where we can all, you know, find someone’s house or find a get an Airbnb or something and have just a few days to really, really. Because I think it makes such a difference to be together so that we’re like trying to like, figure out that’s what the money is for. If we have extra money, that’s what it’s going for, because I think it’ll make a huge difference. We’d have so much fun. We were just at Podcast Movement, some of us in Washington DC, which is the our big conference.

Alison: And how is that? What can you tell us what that is?

Lauren: Yeah, I mean, it’s just this, you know, it’s a very corporate conference where all the podcasters, people in the industry come together. And, you know, I spoke on a panel about marketing and a couple people from our team spoke on panels. There’s parties, there’s just events. It’s like I call it my summer camp because to me it is running around us. Suddenly, I don’t know what time it is or what day it is, and nothing matters. I’m just my friends are there. Like I get to see clients, old people I’ve worked with, you know, and I, you know, for the first time ever, I brought some people from Tink and they actually spoke on panels. So for the first time ever, I always speak on these panels. But I was in the audience watching Tink people speak and I was crying like, I know I cry a lot, but like, I was so moved. Someone gave a presentation  from my team, gave a presentation on metadata that everybody was like, metadata is so cool. I was like, yes, they (my team)  made metadata so cool. There was a panel with Shreya and Ilana from my team, and  the way they were looking at each other, I was like, I think they’re in love with each other. It was so cute. It was so cute. And we went to this one party. I was just talking about this with them, and I think I was just telling Devin about this. We were invited to this party run by another company, and we just all– what we did was we found a booth and all of the Tink people came together. And I said, yeah, we’re at a party. But we were just hanging out with each other because really being together is really special. So hopefully we’ll get to do that someday.

Alison: Love that.

Jean: That is so great. I have a friend that that uses the word PLERK – it’s play and work together

Alison: That’s exactly right. I think that’s a great word.

Lauren: I’m stealing that we’re having. We are. So we’ll credit. We’ll credit you every time we use it. That is so good.

Jean: No, not me, but, yeah, Plerk. Yeah. And isn’t that, I think the the true expression of things that we can work together and we can play together and, and you know, it doesn’t have to be so, so sterile and, you know, just just have fun because life is short and there’s there is a lot of good out there. And you, you are all part of sharing such good, good stuff.

Alison: Yeah. It’s you really feel joy in the workplace with you guys, you know?

Lauren: Well, that’s what your podcast is all about. I feel like that’s what you two are doing.

Jean: That’s right. Yeah. That’s why you’re on our podcast.

Alison: That’s right.

Jean: We’re sharing your good.

Alison: What would be your hope about podcasts? What if someone has never listened to a podcast? What would be your hope that they the takeaway would be if they started, or how would you get them to engage in a Podcast.

Lauren: It’s funny because I used to think that, you know, I know about so many because all I do is listen. I listen to so many. I thought, oh, I would find the perfect podcast for each person, so pretend like someone lived. I’m from Ohio. If I knew someone in Ohio, I’d be like, you know what? I found a podcast about Buckeyes and I’m going to send it to you because you’re from Ohio and you’re going to love it. That’s wrong. I’ve changed my mind about how to find someone, get someone to listen. You just send them the best there is. So that means sending them this American life. That is the new way I get people to listen to podcasts. I don’t try to find the most perfect little podcast that I think they might like. I just send them the best one there is, which is probably This American Life. So that is how I like to get people. And I think, I don’t know, my hope is that I guess I’ll put it simply, my hope is that they hear a podcast and then they want another one. That’s my hope. Devin, how would you answer?

Devin: Um, okay to get someone to listen to a podcast. I definitely agree with Lauren, but I do think that more and more there’s this sweet spot where it’s it is a really high quality podcast, but it also has like some kind of familiar element to it. So whether it’s like an interest or it’s like a person they already know, you know, like there’s a lot of celebrity podcasts out there right now that are just kind of celebrities making a podcast for the sake of celebrities making a podcast. But they do serve a really nice purpose of being like someone’s gateway podcast, because they’re familiar with Julia Louis-Dreyfus and Jane Fonda. So they’ll listen to that episode, and then they’re like, okay, so this is what a podcast is. And then once you get them familiar like that, you’re like, okay, so if you like that one, try this one. And with each podcast, you know, they grow a little bit more familiar because I think a lot of people, it’s they either don’t really know what it is or they don’t know how to access it. So I have done all different kinds of things to help people figure that out, whether it’s like giving instructions on how to access a podcast based on what I know about their comfort level with technology and where they might be listening and things like that. And then it’s like finding the ones that are really perfect. Like, I found one for my dad that he listens to religiously because it’s from somebody he already knew about.

Devin: And so he was already going to be invested and ready to listen to every episode. Um, I found one for my aunt. This came out earlier this year, Broom Gate, which is about curling, and my aunt did curling. She loves curling. So I sent it to her and we all listened to it and talked about it. But like a few years ago, neither of those things would be true. So we are just getting more options that make it much easier for us to do this, and to talk to the people that don’t listen to podcasts yet. Um, and then what’s I mean, my hope is the same as Lauren’s. Like, I just hope they keep finding more podcasts and that we can get podcasts past this point where they feel like a joke or like, not a real thing. Because I think that the outside world has this idea of what podcasts are. But then once you get into them, you see what they really are. And like I said, like books and TV shows and movies have always existed and have always grown, and audio has always existed and always grown like radio and radio stories were huge. So none of this is new. It’s just like the technology and people catching up with each other and meeting somewhere where everybody gets it. That’s my hope.

Alison: So you would like to inspire people to listen and also to jump in, put your toe in and jump in?

Devin: Yeah. Because I think that’s another thing is people are like, well, I don’t know if I want to dedicate how do I know I want to dedicate my time to this show. I don’t. How do I know I’m going to like it? But that’s the same with a movie or a TV show or a book. You start it. Maybe you like it. Maybe you only make one episode or read one chapter and then you’re out. Go to another one. The thing with podcasting, too, like Lauren said, we’re so, so lucky that so many of them are free to access. It doesn’t cost you any money to try one and then go find another one. You don’t have to finish it, but you can easily dip your toes and then figure it out.

Alison: I love that.

Jean: That’s so true. You know, Devin, I never thought of podcasts as like, a radio show, but you’re so right. I remember sitting with my dad, and he would listen to something on the radio when he would be driving, called the Bickersons. And, you know, it’d be these couples that would bicker and and I do remember thinking– being a little girl in the back seat thinking, oh, this is sort of like a TV show. Just you’re just hearing the audio. And I thought that was really cool, that, that. And now and so now it’s sort of that, but a little more polished. And lastly, I just want to add that I think it’s so great that people– there’s so many different types of podcast topics and that you can do  your own podcast if that, if you really feel  called. But it is a lot of work.

Lauren: It is  work.

Jean: I mean, it sounds easy. It’s like when people would say to me, oh, Jean, you own a flower shop. That’s so fun and easy. And like, owning a flower shop is a lot of work. I know it sounds very cute and like, oh, I love flowers and it’s a lot of work.

Lauren: Just sounds like they’re like, oh, she’s in a rom com. It’s just so easy, right?   I love that story of you, picturing you and listening to the Bickersons. Thats so cute… yeah, it’s like radio, except you can listen. That’s how I explain it to people , it’s like radio, but you can do it whenever you want. Like you can, you know, you don’t have to wait for your show to be on there all the time. It’s so great.

Alison: That’s right.

Lauren: I want the Bickersons to come back. We got to get the Bickersons on podcast. Yeah. Where’s the Bickersons?

Jean: That’s something you and Dan can work on.

Alison: Dan, that’s my husband. See, the way she’s saying, we’re always bickering.

Jean: No, no, no. Just because you both have great voices.

Alison: I know, I’m totally teasing you, I love you. I love that. Uh, so, um, the amount of love and support that you guys emanate, I just want to encourage anyone that’s thinking about a podcast to go to your website. And because you have so many resources right on your website for beginners, right?

Jean: I consider you sort of like fertilizer for podcasts.

Lauren: That’s good, that’s good. Oh, we’re going to have to steal that. Can we put that on our website?

Jean: Yeah. Yeah of course.  Because that is the number one reason why we reached out to you, Lauren, was because we saw that, you know, you help grow podcaster’s audience.

Alison: So if someone has an idea for a podcast, are you the person–Would you be someone that they would talk to in the preliminary stages of that? Or is it better that they are doing something and then contact you guys?

Lauren: People can contact us at any stage,  we’ve helped people develop ideas. Sometimes people just want to know, you know, our ears are always on the ground with the industry too. Like, is this a good idea for a show? Is this something that could be, you know, sustainable? Do you think we could make money off of this someday? So we love talking about podcasts no matter what stage they are. And even if, um, you know, Devin and I were on a call today where I said to this woman, I said, I don’t know if we can help you, but maybe we can put you in the better direction. So I would just say, reach out to us and we’ll we’ll push you in a better direction if if we know, you know, we know a lot of people in this space and it’s a very collaborative space. So we’re always happy to send you to somebody else. If you want to make a podcast, we want you to make a podcast. We want to get you there.

Jean: That’s beautiful.

Alison: Thank you. So as we wrap up, we have two questions. What does Insdiewink mean to you? What do you think that means?

Devin: I feel like the wink part of insidewink. I don’t know if I hear it talked about that much. So me, to me, it’s like your way of exuding that positivity and optimism and like, goodness, but like in a way that it’s like you’re winking to the world, you know, like it doesn’t always have to be overt. It can sometimes just be like a little nod to the goodness. Um, so I think that’s kind of your inside wink. It’s not always the big things. It’s the little things that are happening or that you’re doing or that you’re feeling that come back to your goodness and the world’s goodness.

Lauren: I love the name. And I also love that you ask people because it can mean so many different things I love it. I thought and it’s funny because we’re talking about your, you know, friendship. I thought it was kind of like you two have this almost like communication, almost like a language between the two of you that’s really special. And it’s like I see you insideWinking each other like, I got you. Like you know you’re inviting us in. But you have this relationship. But also your audience gets to share on that inside wink. So it’s kind of like, to me, inside wink is friendship. It’s that is what an inside wink is. It’s your friendship. It’s who, who do you feel this kind of like connection with? Where it’s like, you know, you’re winking at each other, but you’re feeling it inside? I don’t know, but I love that there’s so many different interpretations.

Alison: We’ve been asking people this question, which actually I think was your guy’s idea. Yeah, so you inspired us for that.

Jean:  That came from your podcast therapy, which we did, and we love it.

Alison: Um, I think it’s interesting because when people answer this, it really speaks to who that person is. So when we ask people what inside wink means, they’re really exposing the beautiful part of themselves because each answer we’ve gotten has been different. They’re all correct. And it it shows you there a little glimpse of their heart. It’s you know, it’s kind of been amazing. Yeah. I thank

Lauren: But it’s like you didn’t even think of that when you thought of the name. Right? It’s just. That’s so interesting. It’s like a metaphor for how beautiful this show is. It’s like it was there all along. I love that so much. I love it so much.

Alison: How beautiful people are.

Lauren: Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

Alison: And our next question.

Jean: It’s The soulfulness of people being expressed outward.

Alison: That’s right. Yeah. Do you want to do the our last question is,

Jean: Do you like pie, cake or ice cream?

Lauren: Okay. I do remember during podcast therapy, I suggested something , and you can say, no. I feel like I, I want to guess Devin’s. You don’t have to guess mine, Devin. But can I guess your’s?

Devin: I want to know your guess, because I know you’ve been thinking about this a lot.

Lauren: I’ve been thinking about it way too much.  I’ve been doing research. I’ve been asking people, okay, so I don’t— You said cake, pie or ice cream, right? And it’s not cake. It is not cake with Devin… If I could pick anything, I’d say donuts. But donuts wasn’t on the list, so. And it’s tough because you talk about ice cream a lot, Devin and I know that you have favorite flavors and you go to ice cream shops– i know this, but I also feel like Devin is a very good chef and cook, and so I feel like making pie. You’d be very good at that. And I would like you to make me a pie. I’m going to say ice cream,  I’ve been going back and forth in my mind. Just got it. I didn’t even know what I was going to say on this call, but I’m just going to say ice cream.

Devin: Okay. I mean, you’re right with donuts. Donuts would be the answer if it was an option. Um, and I’m not surprised that you said ice cream because I have told you several ice cream related stories. Um, but I think the plot twist might be that my answer is actually cake.

Alison: Wow.

Lauren:  oh, wow.

Jean: I can see that because if you like donuts, that’s sort of cakey.

Devin: And, like i have not made very many pies, but I really like making cakes. Like, even trying to decorate cakes with something I was doing for a while. Not like at all in a professional way. I just wanted to, like, have fun with it and see, like, how pretty can I make a cake? And I will still do that sometimes. So I like eating them and making them, so I think I will choose cake, but ice cream would be second. But donuts were in, then it’s a different conversation.

Lauren: I have to go talk to Holly and Alana because we were at dinner and I was we were all kind of like, well, it’s absolutely not cake. Like, let’s move on from that because, wow, okay.

Alison: Look at that. A discovery between friends, right?

Lauren: Still, after all that,  I was so sure.

Alison: Devin, do you want to guess? Lauren’s?

Devin: I honestly don’t know. I don’t think it’s ice cream for you. I don’t think it’s pie, either. I don’t know. I feel like we haven’t talked about desserts enough.

Lauren: It is…..Do you want me to tell you?

Devin: Yes.

Lauren: Okay.  You were right. It’s absolutely not ice cream. Like, not even close. Like no ice cream. I feel like the texture, but pie for sure. Okay.

Devin: Okay.

Lauren: And  i would prefer rhubarb/ strawberry. Both.

Speaker5: Yes.

Devin: Wow. Okay, okay. I mean, good choice.

Lauren: I mean FYI.

Lauren: Yeah, but I can’t make one. But you can make pies, Devin. You’ll make me a pie at our retreat. Okay.

Devin: I yes, I will get better at making pies just for you.

Lauren: Okay. Thank you.

Alison: Thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you for all the love that you have shown us.

Jean: You really have. We’re just so grateful that you’re in our lives. And you’ve helped us grow and  you’ve helped us also feel more value within doing our podcast. I always loved our podcast, but I. I really value it even more. So thank you for that.

Lauren: Um, that is I mean, we have goals for our clients, but that’s the best one ever to hear someone say that. That’s very moving. So thank you. And thank you for the wonderful stuff you’re putting out in the world too, with your podcast. This is like it means, and I can’t even believe we’re on the show. Like, can we talk about that? Unbelievable. So thank you for having us on your show.

Jean:  we love it and we love you all.

Lauren: We love you. Yes.

Alison: Thank you so much, Devin and Lauren. Yeah.

Devin: Thank you.

Jean: So have a great day and we will get back to you really soon.

Lauren: Let us know if you need anything. Thank you.

Alison: Love you. Bye.

Lauren: Kisses. Bye. Okay.

Jean: They are awesome.

Alison: I love that they truly enjoy their work. And they they seem to really love podcasts. Just as a medium as  the whole idea of it, you know?

Jean: Yeah. I think that’s the whole secret to success is loving what you’re doing.

Alison: and they’re very creative. Like they’re always coming up with ideas- like that was the thing, like we’d hang up and my hand would be tired from writing down what they were saying. You know they have so many wonderful creative ideas.

Jean: Yes. I really also appreciated that they sent us a list of all their tips. After our phone calls, they sent a great email that outlined the phone call, outlined all the tips, and I think that was such a well spent, well spent money for what we received.

Alison: And even if you’re just thinking of a podcast, their website has so many tips that you don’t cost you anything. They have newsletters and ideas for things, and little discussions that really give you insight into podcasts. And I think podcasts are important because it creates a greater sense of community and you can find anything you want. Like she said, there’s a podcast for curling.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: Like, do you know like, that’s beautiful to me. Yeah.

Jean: So. So please, if you are a podcaster or know of one, this is a great company. If, if they need a little boost or fertilizer, as I said on the podcast, to  grow, grow your audience.

Alison: And even if you’re just interested in podcasts, their website, Tink Media  is so interesting and I, I think I’m really leaning into the idea of podcasts because I think anything that brings us more together and shows us more insights about other people, I think is so important right now.

Jean: Yeah, because we really are all the same.

Alison: We’re all the same.

Jean: Even though I like cake and you like.

Alison: I like ice cream, I know I really like ice cream.

Jean: But that’s good.

Alison: Yeah, I could eat ice cream on cake or pie. See, I like it all.  I like the turducken….

Jean: Yes you do.

Alison: Of the whole thing. I’ll eat it all. You know me, right?

Jean: I’m a little single lane on my desserts.

Alison: Really?

Jean: Cake.

Alison: Cake, well there you go. Now you know. Everyone knows now about Jean’s dessert preference. Well, we hope you have a great day. And we hope this was a little insightful and shared some good about what we’re doing.

Jean: Right, and what Tink Media is doing. Yeah. All right. Have a great day.

Alison: Bye.

Alison : Are you ready?

Jean: I’m ready.  Did you turn it on? Yes you did.

Alison : I did that look that.. I turned it on and everything.

Jean: you want to catch something?

Alison : I want to.. I want to, like, just be so spontaneous.

Jean: Then you should have the recording going when I walk in the door. Because that’s when we do our best talking.

Alison : That’s right, that’s exactly right.

Jean: That’s when I tell you all the secrets.

Alison : That’s right. Tell me a secret right now.

Jean: I don’t have any secrets from you right now. You pretty much know everything.

Alison : I have, I wanted you to just look at my neck again. My neck feels so soft right now. It reminds me of my grandma. And I’m making Jean look at it because I love how soft it feels. Did you ever have that with, like, your grandma? Like a part of her skin or a smell or something that makes you think of her ?

Jean: Not so much that, I have great memories of both my grandmothers. I love them dearly and I have more of memories of doing things with them.

Alison : Not like my… I think for me it’s like lilac because they had lilacs in their back yard.

Jean: I have memories of lilacs also.

Alison : And also a part of her skin on her arm that when I was little it was so smooth and soft. I found it comforting.

Jean: That’s so sweet.

Alison : Do you know what I mean? So. Yeah. Um. I miss my grandma. Do you?

Jean: You do talk about your grandmother every now.

Alison : I never knew my other grandmother because my father was left on that doorstep. But, it’s very interesting, the love you feel for people, you know?

Jean: Absolutely. And I think, um, it’s nice to have lovely memories of our grandparents or just to go back and go… Yeah, that was really special.

Alison : Yeah. Right. Um, and speaking of loving people, Who are we talking to?

Jean: Well, we have Ed Begley Jr, who I don’t know, Alison, this guy, I feel like I’ve grown up with him.  not only on television, but I have seen Ed Begley Jr. all around town. And he’s familiar to me. And yet he’s a little removed because I never met him in person. I know he was at my home. I know Alex and him were sort of friends, and a time I would come home sometimes and Alex would say, oh, Ed Begley Jr and I were talking today and, and he picked olives from our tree outside and I’d be, darn, I missed him because I also just want to give him a hug.

Alison : Yeah. He’s so… We’re going to be talking to him today. We read his book and it is fantastic. It’s called, “To the Temple of Tranquility and Step on it”.

Jean: And that is such a great title and I really strongly suggest reading this book.

Alison : It’ll make you feel good.

Jean: It’s so humorous. And there’s so it’s so soul bearing. Yeah. And there’s so much to take away about friendship and forgiveness and gratitude and not rushing through life.

Alison : Right, right. Exactly, exactly. So, uh, let’s do our interview.

Jean: Yes, let’s.

Alison : Let’s. Okay.

Ed:  Hello, everybody.

Jean: Oh, hi, Ed

Alison : And thank you you for doing this? We’re good.

Ed: So nice to be with you both.

Alison : This made me laugh and cry at your book. Made me laugh and cry.

Ed: I’m so happy to hear that. That was my intention, it’s a nice mix of both.

Alison : Yes, I’m Alison,

Jean: And I’m Jean.

Ed: So good to see you, I think, and you tell me if my memory is correct. I came in once and met you and Alex over at the Santa Monica mountains Conservancy Matter. For something to do with the trail. What have you. Because I was on the board of the Conservancy. It’s many years ago. Of course.

Jean: Yes. Ed, and and Alex and I, uh, really enjoyed your career… you’ve given us so much pleasure over the years, and he was so happy to meet you that day. And I think you came over and picked some olives.

Ed: I definitely did, he made a great joke out of the timing of it because I called him and said, you’ve got some great olives. The olive tree in my, uh, yard have died this year. I got some Mediterranean olive fly, so I’ve got no olives. So I’m going to go over to your place, if you don’t mind, out in the street and pick some olives, and I’ll give some to you.  So he came back out before he’d gotten the phone message and said, Begley do I have to call security? I got to call the cops on you for stealing olives? hahahah Yeah, but I called. I swear. He said I’m just pulling your leg, for Christ’s sake- take as many olives as you like.  I brought some over, and hopefully you enjoyed them. They’re good olives. A nice Mediterranean recipe for curing olives.

Jean: Indeed.

Ed: So good to see you again.

Jean: You too, Ed. And thank you for sharing your  generous, powerful life. And I, from a heart perspective and a joyful perspective, i loved your book, so thank you for taking the time to put pen to paper and make, uh, give us some wonderful lessons and insights.

Ed: Well, I sure liked writing it. It was fun to write, and I wasn’t intending to write a book at all. My daughter Hayden, brought her smartphone into my den one day and said, I want you to just tell me in this phone some of the stories about different things, stories that you’ve shared with me about your dad and, you know, Marlon Brando and different people you worked with and encountered over your long life and career. Would you do that? And she took about an hour’s worth of, you know, video of that. So that’s great. You know, when do you want to do it again? She said, I got time next week. And in the meantime, some other things came up to me. I went, I’m going to take these notes before I forget them, for Hayden, for this archive, for her and for my grandkids. Just an archive for them. And about a day later I went, I’ve got a book here. I had like 45 pages of stuff. That was the beginning of a book, I guess that took maybe 4 or 5 days to do that, but I was I was so happy. I said, you’re fired. I think you’re going to be happy. Why? I’m going to write a book out of this, Hayden said. If you need me, I’m standing by with my camera.

Alison : That’s great.

Ed: The keyboard of the computer became like a Ouija board that actually worked. By that, I mean, you know, took me to the real attic and the real basement of my mind. Different things that had happened, opening doors that hadn’t been opened in a long time, and it was delightful. It was fun to write, and I did it just for fun, and some other people have enjoyed it. And thank you for reading it.

Alison : It was beautiful, and it made me fall in love with people that I only know, like Bruno Kirby.

Ed: What a great actor, what a great guy.

Alison : And I have to say, my like, you always love him on screen, but after reading your book and and how kind he was, I was amazed at, um, at how much more I love him. And I want to go back and watch his movies now. You know.

Ed: I learned loyalty and kindness from Bruno. I learned a bit of it from my father and from others and different, important people in my life. But I really learned it well from Bruno. He was such a generous person, so kind, so loyal. And I began to try to build those traits in myself and was finally successful.

Alison : You put you in every chapter of your book, you put a spotlight on somebody else. And yet it must be something in you Ed, that brought these people to you. Like, you must be an incredibly kind, generous, warm man…

Ed: Or a hot mess that they thought they might be able to fix? Maybe that. Don’t rule that out. hahah

Alison : I don’t think so. I think there’s something. There’s something in you. What’s your key to having such long term friendships in a business that can be so transient?

Ed: The loyalty I learned from Bruno Kirby and also gratitude. I learned that from many people. Alan Watts among them. To be in the moment, to be right here, present with you two. And it’s delightful to be here in this moment and to be grateful for. I thought it was a big minus for years that my dad was Ed Begley Jr. He was an actor, and I wanted to do what he did. I loved him deeply. I wasn’t aware of how much I loved him until he was gone, but I began to appreciate him down the line, of course. And also I thought, well, that looks easy. I want to do that. Get me on a Gunsmoke, get me a Wagon Train. I want to be on, you know, Perry Mason, get me a series, not just one episode. I want to be regular. Like I could do, what he did. Pick up the phone and do that. Or I could be able to to to deliver. I had taken no training, you know, I think of my father had been a plumber. I’d be fitting pipe now, but he made it look so easy I thought, I can I’ll put the copper kind of together and you heat something, I think. I’m not sure what you do, but I can do that today, Dad, let me drive the truck and go do the job. I had no skills. And finally I took some training and I got better. And I kind of learned while I was doing it. And that was a stroke of good luck. Most people don’t go to get, to learn on the job like that.

Jean: Yeah. You know, and and throughout your book, you mention a few addictions that, that kind of you had to release in your own wonderful way. Can you talk about, um, what really was your turning point to releasing your the addiction to to wanting a drink all the time?

Ed: It was when I had the DTs for the first time, when you experience something like that, it’s fairly certain at that point that you have a problem with drugs and alcohol. And I had hit that point, so I sought out help and I started, i couldn’t do it alone. It was a saying, I can’t, but we can. And I think that’s a very true thing with different addiction drugs, alcohol, philandering, gambling, you name it. So I was having a big problem and I thought, you know, I’ll try this and see how I do, and I started working on a 12 step program, but I had everything going against me. By that, I mean, I hadn’t really lost anything. And so I went after about 21 days, I was thinking, you know, I don’t think I really had the DTs. I think I had food poisoning. I think I ate some funky food that night. That was not the case, of course, I hadn’t eaten any funky food, but I just thought that was it. I had these different reasons. Because I was in my 20s. I was in very good shape physically. So after just 72 hours, after being in the full blown DTs, I go, I feel pretty good. You know, maybe I wasn’t really having the DTs that worked against me and there was a key person in my life. His name was Billy Boyle.

Ed: He used to go to this 12 step meeting on, uh, on Rodeo Drive there in Beverly Hills. And I came in for the fourth or fifth time, bandaged again in some different way from some injury. He’d be there smoking a cigarette, which you could do back then in those meetings. Hey, slim, how you doing? What is this, your fourth or fifth time in here? Billy, would you stop blowing the smoke in my face first of all? But, yeah, I guess I’ve been in here 4 or 5 times. Oh, Christ, you’re never going to get sober. I said, what a terrible thing to say. Why are you being so negative? You’re supposed to encourage people coming through these doors. Billy, why would you say that? Didn’t I hear you got a series over at universal? I said, yeah, I’m doing Battlestar Galactica. You’re married to somebody named Gretchen? No, it’s Ingrid, but yeah, I’m married and two kids, yes, I do. I have a little place in Hancock Park. He said, oh, you’re screwed. Why? Why? There’s all those sound like good things. Is it because you haven’t lost anything? Here’s the way it’s going to work now. From now on, before you take a drink, you’re going to call me up, do you hear me? I’m going to come over there and I’m going to kick your ass. He was about five two, 110 pounds. Maybe I’m 200. Six, four. It’s okay.

Ed: You’re going to come kick my ass, Billy. Thank you. That’s wonderful. And a few months later, I’m at LAX. I’m about to start a movie called, The In-Laws, a big movie with Peter Falk and Alan Arkin. And they open up the bar and I go, I can’t take the pressure. I’m going to drink. And I go, and I order a Bloody Mary. I put it up to my lips and I remember goddamn Billy Boyle, that son of a bitch at that meeting smoking. Okay, there’s no cell phones. Then I go over to the payphone. Billy. Hi, it’s Ed Begley. Why are you calling me so early? I said I’m at LAX. I’m about to fly out to Cuernavaca. This time of year. Give me a call when you get to Mexico, buddy. Oh, Billy, you didn’t hear. Let me finish. I’m about to drink. I heard you call me when you get there. Okay, pal. So what? No. Don’t you understand? Hold on a second. Bartender. Didn’t I just order a Bloody Mary? Yeah. You got to come drink it. Yeah, I’ll be right there. Also, I’m in first class. I can see now. I’m going to drink all the free drinks they give me on the plane. I am going to drink. No you’re not. Yes I am. No you’re not. I said, why am I not going to drink? And he said, because you called me.

Alison : Yeah.

Ed: And then it sunk in. He was right. Because you called me. Said if you wanted to drink, you would have had the drink before you called me. If you wanted to, if you wanted to have the drink, you wouldn’t have gone to that first meeting you went to back in 1976. You don’t want to drink. Like I said, call me when you get to Mexico. And he hung up on me, and I didn’t take that drink. It’s people like him and my friend Brad that have kept me coming back all these many years, and I’m just so lucky to know them both.

Alison : That exact story that LAX story made me cry. That he was so like, okay, call me when you get there. That you had already taken the step without even having known it. Right?

Ed: Exactly. That’s the brilliant thing about that. They tell that to newcomers. You call me before you drink and they do the same thing as me. No, I am. I got it right here. I got it in my hand. I’m going to drink. You can hear glug, glug in a second. No you’re not. And they lay it on you that if you really want it, you would have taken it before you called, you know.

Alison : It’s beautiful.

Ed: It’s mind opening.

Jean: Yeah. So mind opening and It’s so fascinating how powerful the mind is.

Ed: And the group, what the group can accomplish with simple steps of working with, you know, one another and you know other things. People carry resentments around. They just eat you alive and make you want to drink or use or do other things that are addictive,  and when you have that resentment towards somebody else that’s like drinking acid and hoping the other person dies. Yeah. You know. Yeah. You got to let go of that stuff and and move on. And and that’s what I’ve, in most cases been able to do.

Alison : You went through a lot physically and emotionally. Like you were in a body cast and you punctured your lung, like all these things. And I couldn’t even I couldn’t even believe it. How did you how did you heal from all that emotionally? Because it was a lot. And you’ve had, I’m sure, as an actor, like when we look at your career, it looks like, oh, you’re just successful. Like you’re famous and successful. And yet, there were times in this when it looked like you weren’t working. And I’m wondering, how did you how did you deal with disappointment? How did you how did you get through that?

Ed: I drank over it and drank over it until really 1979, when I finally got sober. This time I used those words this time because this time it’s been nearly 45 years.

Alison : Wow. Congratulations.

Ed: But it’s important to note also, I had a year and a month just before that, i had a year and a month with no pills, no pot, no drinking, no nothing. I was sober, going to meeting a day and yet I still drank. Why? Because I didn’t get a sponsor and I didn’t work the steps. You know, I thought I was different, I was special. You don’t understand. I’m busy. I got all these jobs in Mexico and over at universal, I’m not like these other saps. I don’t have time to get a sponsor and work the steps now, so I’ll get to that later. Big shocker, I drank. Yeah. So then finally, when I started doing things the way that others have done them, it has worked nearly 45 years.

Alison : That’s that’s amazing.

Ed: Yeah, it is amazing.

Jean: And you pay such beautiful, heartfelt tribute to Ingrid.

Ed: Wonderful Ingrid. Mother of my two grown kids. Just a wonderful, wonderful, great lady. I’m so lucky to have had her in my life. Yeah, and a great ex-wife, too. She and I became friendly then friends and best friends. And then, like, brother and sister for life. I’m so still to this day, lucky and grateful to have had this wonderful woman in my life.

Alison : And I, we we know your current wife because we saw her at We Spark the other night.

Ed: Rachelle is heaven on earth in so many ways. I love her deeply too, and she’s so great. She was never jealous about Ingrid. She knew that was something from my past that was important because we had two wonderful children together. But Ingrid and Rachelle were not only friends. We took a drive together where they became like best friends because they could unite against a common enemy. Right? hahah- They turned to me big time and we went in the car. This is how foolish I am, how naive I am. I said, sure, we’ll do this. We’ll get in the car with my present wife at the time. This is years ago, but my new wife at that time, Rachelle, in the front seat in the passenger seat and Ingrid is in the back, my ex-wife in the back with my then five year old daughter Hayden in the back. And, uh, there was a they really had we had a few laughs, as I always I’ll say. It was fantastic. And most of the laughs were directed at me.

Alison : Yeah. Well, you I guess you were the easy target.

Ed: Definitely. And I deserved every bit of it. So there was no protesting… But I, oh no… You’re right, didn’t I … No. I’m sorry.

Alison : That’s funny.

Jean: Well, you do have great taste in women.

Ed: That’s for sure.

Jean: And, um, and how you wrote about them is is very touching in your book. I wanted to take a second and talk about your relationship with Cesar Chavez, because that that seemed to be a real linchpin to your passion of being an active environmentalist.

Ed: He was a dear friend. The great Cesar Chavez. For those who do not know, uh, was a great labor leader. He was the head of the United Farm Workers union he formed with Dolores Huerta, who’s still around and I do a lot of work with Dolores Huerta, but he and Dolores found this union and helped the people in the fields who had no one to speak for them. You know, people were dying in the fields back then, dying in the heat as they do. Not as often, but they do still to this day. But they had no water provided for them in the fields. There was no latrines. It was a bad situation. And so I didn’t really know much about this back then. But I had some friends at Valley College, Bill Malloy and Jan Fisher, who turned me on to the United Farm Workers and their plight. So there was a big move, you know, no Uvas, no grapes. And I boycotted grapes, no lechuga, no lettuce. And so we all stopped buying lettuce. But then one day in the 80s, I got to meet him. Cesar Chavez came into a restaurant. I was sitting at having a bowl of oatmeal.

Speaker2: I didn’t think it was him at first, because he got out of a very modest car and I went, you know, that couldn’t be Cesar Chavez. He’s an internationally known labor leader. Then I thought for just one minute I went, no, that’s exactly the kind of car he would be in, because he Cesar Chavez, walked past me to get to his table and I could see it was definitely him. I walked over and I said, Cesar, I don’t want to bother you, but I’ve been supporting from a distance for the years for the strike fund. And I stopped buying lettuce and grapes and what have you. We hit it off and became friendly, and I worked with him on pesticide issues because the people in the fields then were coming home with pesticide residue in their clothes. And really, people didn’t understand how dangerous it was in many cases. And they were getting sick and their kids were getting sick. So I started working with him on those issues and had the sadness and the honor of carrying his coffin through the streets of Delano in 1993.

Alison : I that was it was beautiful. Can you can you tell me a little bit, too, about the environmental activism that you are so like you’re famous for it? I remember watching, Living with Ed.

Ed: Yeah, I started that in 1970 because I grew up in LA. Most people wonder why I did that, why I got involved in 1970. And the answer is easy. Born and raised in LA and the smog was horrible back then. People think the smog  is bad now. It was so bad back then. And we got to remember that as a success story and a blueprint to do other things like defeat climate change. We have four times the cars in LA from 1970, in that first Earth Day. Millions more people. But we have a fraction of the smog. We all did that by cleaner cars, cleaner power plants, all this stuff, big and small that we hoped would work, did work. We have cleaner air now. We still have problems. Air pollution around the ports of Long Beach and Los Angeles. Those big ships there and the different equipment that loads and unloads. There’s pollution there, near the freeway interchanges, near the fulfillment centers and all those shipping centers. We need to clean up the air for those people who live and work there. And we’re going to do that because we’ve proven that we can.

Ed: Ozone depletion. We had a problem with the ozone hole where increased  UVB was happening and people in Australia and elsewhere getting more skin cancer than would be considered even remotely normal. And so that we banned CFCs and people, the naysayers said, would never be able to buy a refrigerator again. Never be able to buy an air conditioner. They’ll be too expensive. I’m told you can still buy refrigerators. Somebody said that to me the other day. I was shocked to learn it. You can still buy air conditioning units. I’m told. It just cost pennies more to make the change and ban CFCs than we did it. And it worked. We did that with air pollution and a lot of green businesses that thrived. So we have to think about that as we plan for the future and do more things that we must do regarding climate change and our dependence on foreign oil has a cost and many other ways. And there’s lots of ways we can do that and clean up the air in our cities.

Jean: Ed, can you share like three simple things someone can do right now to lean more green in their life?

Ed: Just do something simple, that doesn’t cost a lot of money and then build from there. Just try some energy efficient light bulbs. That’s number one.  Energy saving thermostat number two. The third one is a category I call get out of your car. Most people can’t afford a fancy electric car like I drive. I couldn’t afford it myself, in 1970 when I started, I bought a cheap, like a golf cart, kind of a car back in 1970. But get out of your car. By that, I mean take public transportation. If it’s available near you, ride a bike, you know, a fitness and weather permit. Do things like that. And also I can’t restrict it to three. I’m going to give you a fourth one, you know, do some home gardening or home composting. If you have a piece of dirt in your front or back yard, get out there and get your hands in the dirt. Get connected to the earth and grow some wonderful food, which I’ve always done since the 70s, since I had a house. You can make your own compost, or the old trash becomes new vegetables in the form of composting table scraps and yard waste and what have you. So get out of your car. Get your hands in the dirt and buy some energy efficient thermostats or lighting.

Alison : That’s totally, that’s totally doable. You have an Leed platinum rated home, though?

Ed: Yes. Leed is basically like a miles per gallon rating for a home or a business. And it’s how efficient your home is, as in how thick the walls are, the envelope of the house, how easy it is to keep in heat or cool and or to keep out heat or cool as well. Uh, you know how efficient the air conditioning units are. Do you have room on your roof for solar? Is there a good sunny roof? Mine is. So I have nine kilowatts of solar on the roof. I have two big four by ten solar panels for hot water… I have a 10,000 gallon rainwater tank. I’ve got a lot of fruits and vegetables. Sorry for that buzzing. The mailman just came.

Alison : Oh. That’s okay.

Ed: Hopefully there’ll be some rerun checks. Yeah.

Alison : That’s right.

Ed: The dogs always seem to get excited. Your Probably hearing the dogs barking in the background too…there  Different things are going on here, but, it’s always great to see the mailman. To hear that ringing you just heard. It’s like occasionally there’s a bill. Yes. Occasionally I have to pay a bill. hahah

Alison : Right, right.

Jean: And Ed , you have developed some Eco friendly products, cleaning products.

Ed: I do. I have a wonderful, uh, pet stain and odor remover. I’ve got a pet, a waterless pet shampoo, you know, to clean your pet if you don’t have an area to, like, clean the dog in a tub or what have you like for that. People live in apartment. Need to clean up their pets. Um, we’ve got a floor soap. We’ve got wonderful, you know, totally non-toxic cleaning products that work very well. They have to not only be nontoxic, but they have to clean. People are going to buy it once if it doesn’t do the job of some other, you know, less, you know, safe product.

Jean: Just, just just on on the cleaning. I think it’s so important to have a natural cleaning product for your floor because my dog licks my floor, floor everywhere and…

Ed: All the time.

Jean: All the time. My little Buddy is always he’s like a little Roomba around the house and he’s always licking. So how great it is to know that my floors are not, um, poisonous, and also like little children crawling on the floor.

Ed: Exactly. Little kids crawling on the floor. If you have kids or grandkids that are little, they’re always putting their toes and their fingers in their mouth and they’re crawling the floor. So I’ve been out there with many people protesting a hazardous waste site that they’re sighted or have sighted near their home. And I say to them, we’re going to try to fix this. But before you do that, let’s get the hazardous waste site that’s in your home. Huh? What do you mean? I said. Under your sink. You’ve probably got a lot of toxic products. Get rid of them and stop. You don’t want one near your home. You definitely don’t want one in your home. Get rid of that stuff and stop using it.

Alison : Yeah, that’s great. What do you think of this idea of the car free Olympics coming up in L.A.?

Ed: Yeah, I think it’s great. I think it’s great to commit to that. I think they can do it. There’ll be other people in cars, but they’re going to try to get as much of the Olympic teams and all the support people, all the people involved with the games themselves to be taking public transportation. They’re they’re different, you know, green, uh, vans and what have you. But, you know, bike lanes and, uh, a lot more public transportation. They’re going to have the connection to LAX finished by then. Other different connectors that connect different lines, subway and rail and other light rail and bus, all of it’s going to be better connected by the time the Olympics come. I think it’s a great goal to make it car free.

Alison : Yeah, we see you biking all the time. We both live in Studio City and we see you biking all the time. Do you still not get into a gas car?

Ed: I haven’t been in a gas car in a while. I have now a long range electric car that I can drive across country, and I have, uh. So. But I’m on my bike every day for errands. I ride my bike. Still, I have a transportation hierarchy, if you will. Number one is walking. I like to walk. Get to where I need to go. Bike is number two, public transportation. Number three, the electric car that I’m known for, that’s a distant fourth. And I used to have a fifth choice, which would be, you know, a hybrid car. But I don’t need that anymore because I have a pure electric that can go nearly 400 miles on a charge so I can drive cross country easy.

Alison : That’s excellent. Right, right. It’s perfect.

Jean: Well, we’ve both waved to you. I’ve waved to you many times when I’ve seen you on your bike. And I’ve stop at the light, and I’ve seen you, like, crossing from, Carpenter school and.

Ed: Yes.  I’ll definitely wave back now. It’s good to see your face and be reminded.

Alison : That’s right.

Ed: Lovely lady. It’s so great to see you, Jean….both of you..

Alison : Could you tell me, what the governor of the Academy Awards is?

Ed: Yeah. They decided years ago that the membership comprised of the different branches actors, directors, writers, costume designers, you know, makeup and hair people. Everybody should have a branch consisting of three people. For most branches that would then rotate, there would be an election every year, and one of the three would be up for election after having served three years, they would decide who would host the Oscars with the staff, you know, suggestion, the staff is very much staff driven in many ways. They bring different suggestions for people for the governor’s award and people vote on it. But the the governors themselves vote for who should get the governor’s award each year? Who should vote to host the Oscars? Who should get in? There’s a committee that starts it, then the governors approve it. But most of the most important thing that they do is this though– preservation and celebration of the excellence in motion pictures. Excellence and sound. Excellence in cinematography. Excellence in acting. That is the role of the Academy in a simple sense, to promote excellence in motion pictures. That’s what they do very well with the Nicholl Fellowship and other, you know, different writing fellowships and what have you different ways. They started great filmmakers that we know, Spike Lee and, you know, different people that we know that have done very well and done incredible films started George Lucas, I think, started with the Nicholl Fellowship. People like that got these great grants from the Motion Picture Academy to start and to do decades and decades of wonderful work. So that’s what they do. They promote excellence in motion pictures and the governors guide that. And I was very proud to serve what is now a term limit. They didn’t have term limits before, but it’s good that they do I think. And I served a full 15 years and how lucky I am to serve in that role.

Alison : Wow. And everybody loves you, Ed.

Ed: Don’t tell them what I’m really like. I’m begging you.  Well, Jean knows–her husband caught me stealing olives. I’m a thief.

Jean: I think he actually loved to use that story. And you know who comes over and steals olives from our front lawn,

Alison : Right? That’s right.

Ed: I saw him a few times after that olive theft, and he was always very funny. He gave me a good ribbing.

Jean: Well, he enjoyed you equally.

Ed: I Loved him.

Alison : Yes, he was great.

Jean: This was such a treat. And wherever Brad is, him bringing you to our humble podcast, we’re so grateful to both of you.

Ed:  I feel the same.

Alison :  Could you answer three quick final questions. The first thing is, you have known you huge celebrities that are funny, what makes you laugh?

Ed: I’ll tell you what makes me laugh. And there’s several people that are able to do this. People like Charles Grodin and Dabney Coleman, who were very dear friends, and Peter Falk and Alan Arkin, all four. What’s in common? Each of those guys, when they did comedy and they did it often, they did it like they were doing Strindberg. They never, ever did it, like, okay, we’re going to we’re in a comedy here, and this, this is going to be funny. They played it like they’re doing Shakespeare. And that’s what made it great. Oh the  dogs came in. They just wanted to hear some tips to. I’m sorry.

Jean: We love dogs.

Alison : We Love it. Can we–Is your dog right there?

Ed: Would you open the door and let him in, Brad?

Ed: Oh, she’s got them taken care of. I think Rochelle just came home and took care of the dogs that have been barking the whole show, and now she’s. I think they’re happy to see Brad. Just takes a minute to remember him. Bunny, come. Oh, no. You got Bunny right there. I want you to show you- my daughter found this dog at a tow yard. Her car got impounded. And this is what I got out of the deal.

Alison : Oh, my.

Ed: She sleeps on top of me every night. She’s heaven on earth. She was a little black terrier then, because she was so dirty from the oil and soot and the tow yard. Nobody knows how she got there. She had no chip, she had no collar. And she came to me, and she just sat on top of me right away. And she never wanted to leave my side. Dogs know.

Jean: They do know.

Ed: She. She’s so jealous. She’s yelling at Ducky. Who’s getting some attention over there from Brad and Rochelle. But now Ducky is gone and Bunny will be good again.

Alison : Oh my gosh, he looks like a movie dog. He’s so cute.

Ed: He is. Oh, she’s adorable beyond words. She sleeps in my stomach every night.

Ed: This is for me, honey?  Yeah. thank you. She said this is all the mail I get, I won’t reveal. Hopefully it’s not a summons. I hope I haven’t just been served.

Alison : And could you also tell us, what are you. You’re making me laugh… What do you think insidewink means?

Ed: Inside what?

Alison : Inside wink.

Jean: Help him out.

Alison : Help him. Brad.

Brad: This place is insanity all day long. It doesn’t matter what time you come here. It’s the same vibe and the same banter all day.

Jean: It’s life in full session.

Alison : We love it.

Ed: Say it one more time.

Ed: Oh, Insidewink. That means you got the inside knowledge. The things that most people don’t get. You don’t get the information that most people get. Is that what it is?

Alison : Yes, that’s exactly what it is.

Jean: Perfect.

Alison : That’s perfect. Very good. Editor. And finally, pie, cake or ice cream. And of course, vegan for you.

Ed: Pie,  I love pie.

Alison : Really?

Ed: Can it be…Gluten free too? Is that possible?

Alison : Yeah. What kind of pie?

Ed: I love key lime pie. Oh, but I love apple. And I love pumpkin, I love pecan. There’s lots of pies. I love any berry pie.

Alison :  All right, we know now. Excellent. That’s it. We love you. And thank you so much for doing this for us.

Ed: And you put up with the hounds of hell. So I know I love you guys. You’re very sweet. Thank you. I’m sorry. Hopefully you can hear three words I said through the dogs barking, but they’re little love dogs.

Alison : It’s a perfect interview.

Jean: It really is.

Ed: And same with you guys.

Jean: You’re So wonderful, you and your gorgeous family. So thank you so much, Ed.

Ed: I send you love and light and I hope to see you again on Laurel Canyon or anywhere.

Alison : Us too. Great. Thank you. And have a beautiful day.

Ed: You too. Thank you. Bye.

Alison : Bye.

Jean: Bye.

Jean: Because you can be sneaky.

Alison : I’m never sneaky.

Jean: Okay, that’s actually true.

Alison : I’m never sneaky. I’m very out there with stuff.

Jean: I might be projecting. hahah

Alison : You can be sneaky. What did you think of Ed?

Jean: Okay. This guy is awesome.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean: Yeah, I can see why he has so many friends and why he’s such a great friend. And it always reminds me of if you spot it, you got it. So when he recognizes all that great goodness within all these people that he’s had encounters, encounters with throughout his life, he he owns those qualities as well.

Alison : And you read this book and he really highlights all these wonderful people and talks about how great they are. And then as you’re reading, you realize you (Ed) must be great. Yeah. Like he’s so self-effacing and humble.

Jean: So humble .

Alison : It’s really just… And he’s so funny. And he’s got such a sweet quality to him.

Jean: Right. You know, and he does. You know, I also appreciated the fact that he, um, he’s not perfect, you know, and he will share things that he, you know, aren’t deemed to be highly noble. And then we get a chance to laugh at the human experience and, and the important things in life,  he’s totally nailed.

Alison : Yeah, exactly. What do you think the most important things in life are?

Jean: I do think gratitude. Gratitude and being kind. Going out of your way for someone else. Um. Honesty. Community, community, the all of those things. And. Yeah. How about you?

Alison : Well, just now, after these, after we do these interviews, I’m always struck by the fact that people are beautiful. Like like people that are really trying to do some good, really are such beautiful beings. And you just talk to them and you realize we’re all really kind of alike. And I just, i just love that I feel so good after talking to him.

Jean: Right, yeah. Me too. That was so special. And gosh, I hope you all enjoy that. And please do pick up his book because you will laugh so hard.

Alison : The third sentence is going to make you laugh —

Jean:  the title makes me laugh.

Alison : Me too, me too. To the Temple of Tranquility, and step on it.

Jean: And one last thing. This photo of Ed Begley Jr. and what do you think? He’s about 20 there?

Alison : I don’tknow. He’s such a cutie.

Jean: He’s got so much light and, like, looking forward to life. Like, what is life all about? Like, he’s got that sense of that wonder. Look in his eye, and then you turn. And then on the other side, there’s a photo of him.

Alison : And don’t you think he still has it?

Jean: Oh, just how he’s just grown into to be this, this brilliant adult human being. Yeah.

Alison : Yeah. It’s beautiful.

Jean: And still has the wonder.

Alison : That’s right. Yeah. Well. Thank you. I hope you have a great day, and we’ll talk to you soon. Bye.

Jean: Bye.