ALISON: Hi.

JEAN: Hi, there.

ALISON: How are you doing?

JEAN: I’m great.How are you?

ALISON: I’m really wonderful.

JEAN: Do we always start off our podcast this way?

ALISON: Yes. How should we start?

JEAN: Salutations!

ALISON: All right..Salutations, Miss Trebek. Anyway, how are you doing?

JEAN: I’m good.

ALISON: Yeah. You look good.

JEAN: I love seeing you, uh, two, three days in a row.

ALISON: I know. This has been a really busy week… We usually do not.

JEAN:  Right.

ALISON: this has been a very busy week and it is a busy month for us.

JEAN: Which is nice.

ALISON: Very nice.

JEAN: And, uh, today we get to talk with Dawson Church.

ALISON: I know I’m very excited because he’s very interesting to me.

JEAN: Yeah, uh, he’s very interesting to me, and before we get into how brilliant this man is, he has the best laugh.

ALISON: Does he?

JEAN: Yeah.

ALISON: Oh, good.

JEAN: I love his laugh.

ALISON: Oh, good.

JEAN: It makes me laugh.

ALISON: Okay, so that’s what we’re gonna do.

JEAN: It’s just a deep, joyful… Don’t take it all so seriously, laugh.

ALISON: Oh, I love that.

JEAN: Yeah, yeah.

ALISON: He’s had an incredible past and career. Right?

JEAN: Yeah. He’s a scientist, a spiritual visionary, and just an all around brilliant human being.

ALISON: He’s authored so many books, hasn’t he?

JEAN: I think about ten.

ALISON: Wow.

JEAN: I think about Ten books, and, uh, he what else? He’s been the founder of the Veterans Stress Solution, which, goodness knows, we need to help the veterans.

ALISON: He studied PTSD and anxiety disorders and depression. And now he, the book that we just read, Bliss Brain, is all about meditation and creating a flow in yourself to, um, relax your brain and relax yourself. And he can he says it can change your neural pathways.

JEAN: Right.. So I look forward to having him, uh,

ALISON: Change our pathways.

JEAN: Yeah. Right.

ALISON: Yeah… Do it!

JEAN: Do it…Well, this is an honor to have him… He has so much to offer. So enjoy this interview.

ALISON: Here we go.

Dawon Chruch: Alison and Jean. Hi.

ALISON: Hi. How are you? It’s so nice to meet you.

Dawon Chruch: Yeah. Good to connect with you.

JEAN: Can we call you Dawson? or Doctor Church?

Dawon Chruch: Dawson? Yeah.

ALISON: Okay. I’m Alison,

JEAN: I’m Jean.

ALISON: And we’re so taken with your books and your career. It’s very exciting what you’re doing. And my my eldest child studied neuroscience in college, so I was so fascinated by everything you’re discovering with your FMRI. And I just I just am so excited. What what took you down this path? How did you start initially?

Dawon Chruch: Uh, just my own personal issues, because I was anxious and depressed and wanted something to fix myself with. And a lot of people in therapy and personal growth are, first of all, trying to solve their own problems. But then as I began to discover energy therapies and how quickly they work, like what you see, you know, like a Vietnam veteran who’s had flashbacks and nightmares for 45 years, and you do some work with him and suddenly, like in two sessions, they’re gone. Just amazing. So it was then it was like a motivation to get these therapies, lots and lots of people. So that’s my focus now.

ALISON: And then you combined a lot of them right into one.

Dawon Chruch: Yeah. So EcoMeditation is my, I was really um, I had the same problems most people have, which is that your mind wanders, you close your eyes and think about all kinds of other things. It’s hard to sit still. And so I, I realized that all of these techniques are good, but if you layer them all into a single composite technique. So tapping, mindfulness, self-hypnosis, biofeedback, neurofeedback, and you do all of those like one after the other, the the effect is powerful and then you’re able to meditate easily. So that’s why eco meditation has been so popular, because, um, it allows people who just couldn’t meditate before to get into that deep state. And usually the first time they do it. So it’s a lot of fun to watch them again.

JEAN: I did your meditation this morning and I really enjoyed it. And I felt my.. everything calming down and and I thought it was a beautiful meditation. And I thank you for offering it for free on your website. Um, that was that was a treat.

ALISON: Do you do do you do that every day?

Dawon Chruch: Every day I personally meditate for about an hour and a half every day, and I do just because it’s so much fun. It’s like not an effort. And it’s not like, in fact, what it’s hard to do after after a few years or a few decades of doing it, it’s, um, much harder. You know, we find this with, with people we’re training to like, we have a program called the Short Path to Oneness, where we’ll train people over the course of a year to really let go of their old patterns. and our problem, our challenge initially is getting people up there, but the challenge toward the last, like after the first six months, the challenge starts to be bringing them back down again because they become so enchanted with the places they’re going up there, that they get a little bit reluctant to come back and change the diapers and, uh, the laundry and, uh. hahahah

ALISON: So, so, so you’re making it that everyone’s house is a mess?

Dawon Chruch: Absolutely… That’s why the monks and nuns have people to take care of them. That’s right.

ALISON: Yeah. That’s right. Exactly.

JEAN: So, Dawson, I have a background in, uh, Science of Mind.

Dawon Chruch: Oh, yeah.

JEAN: And we are always talking about the power of your thoughts. Change your thinking, change your life. And I feel that so much of what you offer to the world is how powerful our thoughts are. And you also help people to really know how to think. Most people just think while, like crazy, non-supportive unhelpful thoughts. Can you can you talk about the power of our thoughts?

Dawon Chruch: Yeah, I love Science of Mind. In fact, I often speak at Science of Mond churches and our thoughts are powerful. And that whole approach in religion is is really meaningful and impactful to many people. And then what I’m trying to also bring in is science. So I’m trying to talk to the people who wouldn’t go to a church or wouldn’t look for the answers in spirituality, but would look for the answers in hard science or neuroscience. And so there is so much evidence that our, our, our brains, for example, aren’t the seat of consciousness. Our brains are transducers of consciousness from the field of all consciousness into local awareness. And so, um, there’s much more evidence showing that our brains work that way, that we tune into these great information fields. And not only are we able to do it individually, but as we do it collectively, as we have people all over the world doing it, then they’re all coming into sync with each other. And that’s what explains phenomena that are very hard to explain, like distant healing. How do you explain the effects of distant healing? How can a qigong master who’s a thousand miles away from a client affect them? But I’ve had qigong from a qigong master 2000 miles away, and it was like 8 a.m. in the morning when he was going to do his send his qi uh, energy to me when I was sick one day, and um, at 8 a.m.

Dawon Chruch: that morning, it was like a freight train of energy just hit me. It was so powerful. So how do you explain distant healing? There’s a lot of research on distant healing. How do you how do you explain that? And these the phenomena like information fields, like universal information fields, fields of consciousness in which we all participate. If you’re plugged in and I’m plugged in, then we’re plugged into the same field. And that explains things like clairvoyance and telepathy and psychokinesis that are otherwise, again, very hard to explain with conventional science. So there’s a lot of evidence for, for those things and our ability to be creating not just, um, reality inside of our bodies, obviously, but when we when we change our thoughts, then our hormones, our neurotransmitters change and they can change a lot. Like there’s a study that came out, uh, about 4 or 5 days ago and the researchers used AI to crunch unimaginably huge amounts of data, and they looked at the effect of one of the key components in in, in spirituality, which is emotion regulation. And monks and nuns and people who are meditators aren’t at the mercy of their emotions if they have a, you know, passing flash of anger or a moment of resentment or irritation, they don’t scream and yell.

Dawon Chruch: Uh, people who are poor at emotional regulation do scream and yell, but people who are good at it don’t. And so meditators tend to be really good at that. And they found that that ability to regulate your emotions, which is so key to self-transcendence and spirituality, was producing absolutely fundamental changes in the gene and gene expression in the cells of those people, and that these changes were the ones that were typical of long health span. In other words, they’re going to live long lives and those lives are going to be healthy. And so not obviously everyone who, um, has emotional regulation will live a long life. But the trend was extremely powerful for these genes to be for the gene expression to match the profile of a long health span. So it’s just wonderful to know that we’re literally shifting our bodies dramatically as we, um, engage in these practices and as we change our minds, as we learn techniques like effective meditation, as we learn to release our our negativity, as we shift our minds, we’re just, for example, where we’re reducing our cortisol. In one study I did, we saw a 36% drop in baseline cortisol in a week and doing energy therapy. So our minds do create molecules and create molecules and shift our reality that way.

ALISON: Is meditation the only way to do it or is there a way to stop negative thinking or fear based thoughts without meditating? Or does it just not create new neural pathways?

Dawon Chruch: There are several ways that are useful for stopping negative thoughts. One is to stop them at the source. And that’s why I recommend morning meditation. Because when you wake up in the morning, first thing we do is orient to the those great non-local fields of consciousness. We’re plugging into the the all it is, as the Buddhists call it, first thing in the morning. Then that’s going to predispose us to a good day. So we know our breathing patterns are going to change. Our cortisol goes down, our cell repair hormones go up, our neurotransmitters change. All these beautiful things happen in our bodies at the start of the day. And so we then are setting ourselves up for good day ahead. If we then use a simple energy routine like acupressure,  I teach EFT tapping, where you just tap on acupuncture points that then when you’re stressed during the day, will help return you to that baseline and stop negative thinking. So those are two practices-  meditation sets you up for the good day, EFT tapping for when you’re having a negative thought or an overwhelming emotion during the day, will return you to baseline fairly quickly and then you know if it’s too big, i mean, if people have been traumatized, for example, if they have ongoing psychological trauma or if they’ve been triggered, then they they may need help. We train practitioners. We train people who are they’re called clinical EFT practitioners. And they’re available and they’re they are able to handle those those big T traumas, major life events. And so we recommend people have a practitioner relationship as well, so that if your self-help methods aren’t enough, then you can bring in this expert help to move you through those issues.

JEAN: That’s amazing. Can you talk a little bit more about EFT? What does it mean? And what’s the science behind tapping.

Dawon Chruch: The science behind tapping is very simple. And when we get emotionally triggered it activates our emotional brain. So we have this big chunk of tissue in the center of our brain the limbic system, the thalamus, the hippocampus, the amygdala, other structures. And that’s triggered when we’re emotional. So if I get upset, if I get angry, resentful, blame, shame, guilt, all of those negative emotions are activating that part of the brain. And EFT is applying pressure to acupuncture points. And you simply tap on a series of 13 points and you actually remember the bad stuff. So we are not trying to suppress or move away from or avoid thinking about the bad stuff– I was working with somebody this morning actually, was a clinical psychologist, who was still having trouble with a lot of his own emotions. And, um, as I had him tap, he was saying, okay, now I’m feeling this emotion, now I’m letting it go. And I said, no, don’t let it go. Hold on to it. Let’s take a deep dive. Really feel that emotion because you, Mr. Smart, PhD, clinical psychologist, are really good at taling to yourself out of your emotions, and we’re instead just going to go back to when you were two and wailed and screamed and yelled and let your needs be known and felt your emotions. So I hadn’t really feel his emotions but tap while he was doing it. So now he’s tapping while he’s feeling the emotions. Now that limbic system, that emotional brain, gets all lit up in the center of the brain by those negative emotions. And now the brain gets a second signal coming in from the body, which is the soothing signal of tapping on acupuncture points, which calms people down. So when we had them hooked up to an EEG, we’ll see them thinking about that car crash, divorce, the economy, uh, combat whatever it is that most triggers them emotionally. And we’ll see on the EEG when they think about that bad thing, that chunk of tissue gets highly aroused in the middle of their brains when they start tapping. It’s actually almost miraculous to watch this on an EEG. That emotional midbrain just calms down, and then ten minutes later, the person’s talking to you about that horrendous event and they’re totally calm. And I’ve done this now  with thousands of veterans through our Veterans Stress Project. We’ve done it with people. And right now we have a project going on in Ukraine.

Dawon Chruch: We’re working with therapists in Ukraine, we’re training them. They’re doing it with people- like the one guy that, um, was in one of our calls recently in Ukraine. He was supposed to be on a call with us, and then he didn’t show up for the call. And we’re like, you know, why is he not not there for the zoom call was because the house next to him had been hit by it by a Russian missile, and several people had been killed or wounded there. And so, um, these Ukrainians are just subject to constant uncertainty in their lives and the threat of death and incredibly stressful. And they get this technique of tapping. And so they can, we find that even in extreme examples, we’ve had volunteers work with victims of the Rwandan genocide, of the Haiti earthquake, of, uh, of school shootings and various other, other places. We have volunteers in Israel. We have volunteers in Palestine working with people there. And we find that even in these, again, horrendous conditions, that it’s able to dramatically shift people’s levels of anxiety, depression and, and fear. And you just see that that emotional brain calms down. So it’s just tapping on these 13 points while you’re thinking about the bad stuff and the, the the internal mechanism is it’s calming that emotional brain.

ALISON: So you know, it’s funny because you think it might be counterintuitive that if you’re saying a bad memory or something and you’re and you’re hitting something, you know, my mind says that would reinforce it. But where I am hitting allows me… Tells my brain a different signal and says to relax. Is that right? That’s what I’m hearing, right?

Dawon Chruch: That’s right. The brain’s getting two signals. One signal is the memory of the event, and the second signal is the tapping. And so, it’s now getting one signal saying go to fight or flight. I’m thinking about the thinking about the bomb blast in Iraq. I’m thinking about the, uh, the home invasion. I’m thinking about being mugged in Central Park. I’m thinking about, uh, losing my home when my mortgage was underwater in 2008. So this one signal is remembering this bad thing, and it’s telling the emotional brain to go into fight or flight. Then in comes the second signal via the body saying, calm down. You’re being soothed over here by this rubbing or tapping on these acupuncture points. And when the body then pairs that soothing signal with the disturbing memory, it realizes that the memory is not a current threat to your survival, and it breaks the connection between the memory and going into stress mode. And when you break that, that association one time, it’s really interesting to watch this happen with people. So you’ll, you’ll you’ll work with them. You’ll you’ll do tapping with them. Talk to them again a year later and say, how do you feel about that event? And they’ll say, well, I might think about the event sometimes, but um, the emotional impact is, is is now low. All the emotional energy it used to hold is gone.

ALISON: May I ask just one more question on that? Uh, let’s say you don’t have a memory. But you have a fear, a phobia, a fear like a fear of spiders or a fear of flying or anything that isn’t based in a memory. Does this process still work?

Dawon Chruch: Actually, phobias are one of the easiest things to treat with EFT, and we have several randomized controlled trials and it rarely takes more than one session. Very, very occasionally it’ll take more than one session. But you know, fear of public speaking, fear of small animals like rats, mice, spiders and so on. Fear of flying. I once worked with a, i once walked into a big university to talk to the head of psychiatry there, and, i thought we were going to have a chat about research and other interests, and but she just summoned the colleague into the office and said, my colleague over here is a fear of flying. Work with her right now. I was like, okay, so it was affecting this other professor’s career because she couldn’t fly to scientific conferences and present her papers. And this is like maybe 2005. So I was before there was video conferencing. And so it was really impacting this researcher’s career not to be able to travel. And so, um, I just worked with her systematically. We, we tapped on all the phases of flight, like I got a score from her and said, well, how nervous are you? Zero through ten when you think about making, and back in those days, we made phone calls to the airlines to book our our flights, no online reservations. So she was pretty, pretty okay with, uh, with, with making the reservation just a 2 or 3. But then when she point of the flight, when she was in her seat and clipping the seat belt together, that meant I was trapped. Right? And that sound of the seat belt took her up to a ten. So I just kept with her on on that and a few other associated events around flying. And, um, she went right down to a zero on all of them and said, I feel just great now. So her colleague then said, this head of psychiatry said, well, tell you what, go back to your office, phone the airlines and make a reservation and she did. She wet out there, made a reservation, came back, said, I’m totally fine. So, um, it’s it’s not usually a long process to treat a phobia.

ALISON: Wow, You changed her life right there. That’s amazing.

Dawon Chruch: Where it’s really amazing is with people who are victims of abuse, you know, serious abuse, complex PTSD, like hardly anything but will budge. Complex PTSD when you’ve been repeatedly in a in an unsafe situation and abused or neglected and in EFT we have very specialized techniques. Now again, this is not self-help. This is like a trained clinical EFT practitioner who’s been through a long training program and passed lots of exams and lots of supervised training, but but we can work with people who have chronic, complex PTSD and see them just release all of that early imprinting. So it’s a wonderful we have this tool to do this now.

ALISON: Yeah.

Dawon Chruch: It is wonderful. And it’s wonderful that you are sharing this and getting the word out there. Um, Dawson, I want to talk a teeny bit about your new book, Bliss Brain, for a moment, and you share that,as we cultivate peak states, our brains rapidly rewire themselves for happiness. Can you talk? What are peak states and how do we achieve peak states?

Dawon Chruch: Yeah. Peak states are in secular terms, our flow in flow states, people lose themselves in the task and are in this really happy space as they’re doing whatever activity they’re doing. And then in meditation, we reach these extraordinary states. In the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, he calls them samadhi, and we reach these layers of samadhi. The lowest level is he calls n—- samadhi. And you do that in certain ways. And, um, then it goes all the way up to an ob– samadhi in the, the nine phases of samadhi. And Patanjali and a lot of the eastern writers talk about this. A lot of the Western mystics talk about Hildegard of Bingen, talked about this, the sense that the the like, the fire of God, poured through her body, into her head, over her face, out through her heart. And Rumi, I mean, Rumi, this mystic who just wrote this exquisite poetry about these ecstatic states. And so these mistakes are in that state. And now that we have the neuroscience to examine what’s going on with them, obviously we can’t put Hildegard of Bingen, a 15th century mystic, into an MRI, but we can stick a modern day Tibetan monk or a Franciscan nun into an MRI. And what we see in terms of their brain function is extraordinary. This one, um, this one particular much studied monk I talk about in Bliss Brain, and the researchers hook him up to EEGs and they haven’t then move into states of elevated compassion. He’s feeling global compassion. He’s one with you all. That is his levels of the brainwaves of happiness, gratitude and compassion. His brainwaves go up 700%. Wow, 700% sevenfold. And what we’re now doing is we’re reverse engineering a lot of this. Like, I have a course called The Short Path to Oneness based on both neuroscience and ancient practices.

Dawon Chruch: And we’re training people to do that. And it’s not taking us 10,000 hours. It’s taking us. I mean, a serious training does take about a year to start to reach these elevated states, but we find that even in a month, the first 30 days, we can get people into extraordinary inner states. Now, just getting there one time or a few times or for a few weeks is nice, but you want to learn to sustain it. So we want to teach people to reach the goal, whatever they want to. And then the challenge, as I mentioned earlier, becomes bringing them back down again. So our initial challenge in the first like month of the short path and oneness, we get them up there. The after about six months or a year, we’re working very hard in the opposite direction. We need them to integrate and bring that down, but we can and do. And so what we find is that after they’ve learned to ground and integrate these states into the daily lives, then they’re doing the laundry. They’re taking care of their kids, they’re taking care of their elderly parents. They they are the elderly parents. They are doing everyday lives. And again, when we hook them up to the EEG, we find they’re in these ecstatic states in everyday reality. So, um, like, I pretty much spend my day that way. I do meditation in the morning. That’s really intense for me. I mean, I just shake with energy. It’s so, so powerful. But a lot of my day is just spent, even in just regular work. I’m just feeling this just glow of radiant love and light all around me, even though I’m working on a spreadsheet. So it’s totally wonderful to live your life that way.

ALISON: When you get, do you get upset by things? Do you argue with people? Do you, does that happen to you?

JEAN: Do You honk your horn in traffic?

ALISON: Exactly. Does this happen to you?

Dawon Chruch: This is the finger I give people in Hawaii— hahahaha

JEAN: I can’t see people watching you and you flipping someone off… And they notice, that was Dawson Church!

Dawon Chruch: Yeah. We find that, um, again, me and the people we trained to get into these states and go through these courses, and we have some very simple courses that take you, like in a week and others that take a month. And this one, the short path to oneness takes a year. And so we find that people’s level of all of those negative emotions goes way, way down. And paradoxically, they are still bothered by them when they experience them because there’s not much else going on in their emotions. So they’re very calm, so they can be quite bothered when there are things that disturb them. But like I talked to one guy who’s been doing this now for like a decade and he said, yeah, you know, a few things every, every, every year a few things will disturb me. But I return to my baseline really fast. And so, um, they become imperturbable. Also, the part of the brain that coordinates emotional regulation has grown at that point to be enormous. And, um, it’s like in one study I talk about in my books, the this, this, this part of the brain is called the dentate gyrus. And it’s a little finger. But besides my little, little finger, it’s a little sliver of, of, um, of brain tissue at the base of the limbic system. And it can grow by 10% in meditators doing that kind of meditation 10% a month. Wow. So it, you know, by in three months it’s grown 30%. Um, in in six months has grown 60%.

Dawon Chruch: So they have a lot of tissue now. It doesn’t grow forever. I mean, it grows to a certain size. Then you have all the emotional regulation you need. But it’s not software, it’s hardware. It’s not just practice or habit. Now you have this physical hardware, neurological wiring inside your head for regulating negative emotions. So, um, that’s really when you start to reach the tipping point is when it’s not a mood regulation, it’s neurological wiring inside your head. And then there’s very little that can disturb you once you reach that kind of brain of equanimity. And like, like the Dalai Lama, I mean, he’s he’s just pretty much in a positive mood. Most of the time. And sometimes it’s dealing with terrible things like, you know, killings of of Tibetan monks by Chinese troops and, um, all kinds of setbacks since 1950, when he fled the country, he’s had to deal with being dispossessed and, um, all kinds of challenges. And yet he has this amazing ability and this, this resilience, because those emotional structures are so developed in him. So you want to develop them, and then it also makes you resilient. So you now have the structure, the hardware of resilience in your brain. So when you’re faced with the loss the recession, the divorce, the, um, unexpected death of a family member, you have this fundamental bedrock of this wiring in your head that’s going to serve you when you need that resilience.

ALISON: Why do you think that’s fantastic? Why do you think? Or in your book, you were saying that the reason we have fear and stress is because it protected us, you know, and that makes sense. Um, but do you think it’s worse now with social media and all of that, or is that a different kind of stress or, uh, so many of my, our friends, they just feel very stressed so often. And I’m wondering, do you see, what do you think is going on?

Dawon Chruch: Well, I think that there are a lot of messages that hit us if we watch the news, if we are exposed to social media. And so there are a lot of things that claim our attention and that aren’t very helpful to our peace of mind. And I think it’s worth I mean, it’s certainly worth knowing what’s going on in the world, but, you know, you need to spend maybe five, ten minutes a day doing that. You definitely don’t want to be doomscrolling and looking, you know, every.

ALISON: Yeah.

Dawon Chruch: Miserable message. And you want to be really what’s called. And again this term comes from immunology,  inoculating yourself. And there’s research showing that meditators. People who, using evidence based meditation methods, are inoculating themselves against bad news. And so if you have equanimity, sure, you go and read about climate change. I mean, just for example, one study that just came out showed that, um, every single month of last year was the hottest month of that month on record globally ever. So it wasn’t just an unusually warm year last year, every single month, all 12 months were the hottest months on record for that month ever since we began tracking temperature in the 1800s. And so, um, you know, I mean, is that is that a problem? You bet it is. Uh, you know, racial inequality, um, uh, sexual freedom, um, uh, income inequality, uh, war, poverty, the all these things are, um, are issues we need to be aware of. But does your getting stressed about them help at all? Not a bit. Not even one tiny little bit. In fact, the more stressed you are, the least likely you’re able to be effective. So you want to be effective. And that means staying calm. What we see in the research on monks is that, um, when they hear or are exposed to tragic news or human  tragedy, they have the same kind of emotional and empathetic response everyone does, actually more so,  their brain, uh, emotional response spikes higher than the average person when they, they are exposed to human tragedy.

Dawon Chruch: One of the ways that this is tested is they’re in a lab. They hooked up to an EEG, we’re reading their brainwaves, and then in a distant room somewhere else in the building, the researchers play a recording of a child screaming in pain. Now the monk doesn’t know there isn’t a real child, and the monk doesn’t know that, that he or she is being set up for this. But what we see is that that empathetic response, that that response to the the child screaming in pain spikes quicker than the average person, but that part of the brain spikes in activity, and immediately brain activity shifts into the part of the brain that handles practical details, tasks. And the monk is going to how can I help? How can I make a difference? So they have this emotional response. They are not Mr. Spock being completely devoid of emotion. There’s a funny episode of Star Trek where Star Trek in which Mr. Spock says, abandoned emotion, acquire logic. hahah

Dawon Chruch: That’s not emotion control, that’s emotion suppression. And and you know, it’s dissociation. You don’t want to do that. So these monks and nuns feel but they feel, and then they switch right away to how can I help? What can I do? So that’s the way it works in the brain.

ALISON: Yeah.

JEAN: I also heard you say that meditation helps people have more positive synchronicities in life. And I thought that was pretty, pretty amazing. And I’m and I can attest to that. I know that when I do my meditation in the morning, the day just seems to kind of click. Yeah, it doesn’t mean I’m not going to have challenges, but it just kind of.. There’s a flow to my day that it’s not so jagged,

ALISON: And you’re driving with your eyes open.

JEAN: Right, And I love that you gave synchronicity a good, um, you know, that was a big chapter. And that was that was wonderful.

Dawon Chruch: Initially, I thought that chapter in mind matter would be a little tiny short chapter. And I just talked about Carl Jung, and he believed in synchronicity. And, uh, then I’d go through it very quickly, and I was amazed as I got into the science of synchronicity and became the longest chapter in the book, because there’s so much science that shows that synchronicity is real, in all kinds of dimensions. And so, uh, the one giant study published in 2018 showed that meditators have more synchronicity, more clairvoyance, more clairaudience, more all of those ESP kinds of experiences in their lives than non-meditators. And again, their lives just seem to flow a little easier. It’s not that their lives are perfect. I mean, none of our lives is perfect, but um, and like people taking our courses say, you know, the days I didn’t meditate were just rockier. They just didn’t flow as, as, as as easily. What we find, too, is that word flow is comes up over and over and over again. Flow, uh, is the the secular counterpart to meditation. As you meditate in the morning, you are predisposing yourself to have a day spent in that creative state of flow.

Dawon Chruch: And so you’re in flow, much a much bigger part of the day when you meditate in the morning and your data seems to flow much more easily, you have challenges, you have obstacles still, and they seem easier and your creativity, in one study, we found that people’s creativity doubled after meditation in these flow states. I mean a doubling of creativity. Another study found that, uh, the ability of people to solve complicated problems, really hard problems went up by about 500% after they entered a flow state. So in flow, you look at a problem, i mean, I had a big problem this week in my work and, um, when I was first thinking about it and reflecting on it, I was I was really like, whoa, this is a massive problem. I mean, I couldn’t imagine how we would solve it. But I meditated, finished my meditation, and opened my eyes and looked around me and realized, oh, there’s this really easy solution I just didn’t see when I was all stressed.

ALISON: Wow.

ALISON: That’s beautiful.

Dawon Chruch: Yeah.

ALISON: Do you, do you think I know some people that have said, well, I don’t want to get rid of my anxiety because it’s a motivator, like, you know, the people that wait till the day before the homework is due to do the paper or that what would you what would you say to that? Because I know a lot of people that are working and they wait till the very last minute. What would you say to them?

Dawon Chruch: You may want to just conduct a little experiment to see how you feel doing it under stress, and how you feel doing it, not under stress. Now, one thing you can do is, there’s something going on there subconsciously that is, um, supporting that pattern. And so you can delve into that and do some EFT tapping and release whatever energy pattern there is there. Again, approach it from an energy perspective. I know for me, for example, I occasionally have big difficult tasks to do and the temptation is to do the small, easy ones first. Uh, but then you want,  you need to tackle the, the big hard ones. And so what I do when I feel like resistance coming up to, uh, doing the big hard one first, I do some tapping. I think about the task, I do some tapping, like I to write a whole bunch of, um, of copy for Facebook and Google. And it was apparently it was like this process normally would take about a, a day to write this, this particular set of copy for one our programs. And, um, I had a little copy there, and I just decided to tap and release all of the, um, energy I had around. Uh, this is a huge, big task. How will I do it? I’m running behind another deadlines, blah blah blah, blah, blah. So I did some tapping, I released, and I got into flow and I thought, I’ll just start the project. So I started it and two hours later in flow, I finished it. It was wonderful. Just all literally flowed. And so you, you notice your tendency is like being anxious or, or stressing yourself out. And after a while, you don’t want to feel that stress. You don’t feel bad anymore. And what’s happening to the brain in my book,  I talk about the seven neurotransmitters of both flow and meditation, and one of them is serotonin and serotonin is your feel good neurotransmitter.

Dawon Chruch: Dopamine is your go get them neurotransmitter, a motivational transmitter neurotransmitter. Go get this goal done and you get a reward if you have a rush of dopamine. Serotonin is, I got it done, i feel good now. And both of these really pleasurable neurochemicals rise in your brain once you got into the habit of generating these neurochemicals. So you have oxytocin. You have anandamide, you have beta endorphin, you have serotonin, you have dopamine. You start to feel habituated to feeling good. So I’m already used to feeling good. I don’t want to feel bad by stressing myself out. So the more you feel good, the more you want to feel good and see your new normal then becomes, you know, I want to feel good. And if I’m doing stuff to myself, let’s make me feel bad. I’m going to shift myself. I’m going to tap, I’m going to meditate. I’m going to walk in nature… In my book, Mind to Matter, i have like 30 things you can do. Go give someone a hug. Give yourself a hug. This is called the butterfly hug. It’s used in various kinds of energy therapies, and you just rub your own upper arms. This way generates delta and gamma waves in your brain. You also tap on either side like this. Just with kids a lot. A lot of tapping in schools. And this is just one of the things we teach kids to do is give themselves a butterfly hug. Just that alone will shift your brain function. So if you used to make yourself feel bad to motivate yourself, try feeling good instead.

ALISON: I love that.

JEAN: I love that.. That’s the new norm, you know? And the brain is is it’s such a muscle. Like, you know, if you don’t, if you just let it, if you don’t work on it, it’s just going to kind of be

ALISON: saggy

JEAN:  yeah, saggy…exactly. Yeah. That’s right. No more saggy brains, you know, but, uh, I, I love that. And, Dawson, do you have any thoughts about sound healing? Um, have you researched anything around that? I, I studied with a man, Tom Kenyon, about the power of sound healing.. Any thoughts on sound healing or listening to music? Do you think that good?

Dawon Chruch: yes, sound is vibration, like, um, thought is a  vibration.  various kinds of healing has been studied and they find that there like for example, there are energies that emanate from the hands of healers. Your own voice is a wonderful instrument for for healing. So humming, for example, is going to lower your blood pressure is going to engage your parasympathetic nervous system relaxation response. And so, um, so various kinds of, of sounds are really useful. Um, and I haven’t looked into the research behind sound healing very much. I know there are a few studies of it, but, um, use use vibration think, you know, we we tend to when we’re looking for healing, we have a problem. We have a diagnosis of disease. We tend to go very, very quickly to an external agent. And that external agent might be a drug. It might be a herb, it might be a psychedelic. And all of those things mean drugs are fine sometimes. And and herbs are great in their place. And psychedelics are sometimes useful. But the very first thing we should be asking ourselves is not what external agent should I stick in my body to feel better? The first question to ask yourself is how can I shift my energy myself? How can I change my vibration to love myself more, to care for myself, to nurture my cells, to heal my body? That’s the very, very, very first question to ask yourself and shift your energy.

Dawon Chruch: And then a lot of your physical stuff is just going to go away. Your physical problems will just many of them will just vanish when you are approaching it as an energy question, not as a material question. Now that has its limitations. Like for example, um, I had high blood pressure. I’ve had it all my adult life. And, uh, my doctor had put me on medication for high blood pressure, and I said, no, I’m, I’m going to lick this naturally. So I used I used tapping, I used herbs, I used, uh, supplements like the  beets, for example, lower your blood pressure. I did all the natural things, and I, you know, I lowered it maybe ten points or so, but it was still over, over the, the norm. So I actually had to go to the doctor after a few years and said, okay, I’ll take the medication. And I still take it. So, you know, uh, it’s not like we’re against allopathic medicine.

Dawon Chruch: It’s wonderful in its place. But to if you have an emotional problem, if you have stress that’s making your blood pressure high, going and getting a medication is then simply going to mask your symptoms. And it’s like putting, you know, the red light saying, check engine light is on on your dashboard and you just get a piece of tape and tape over it so you don’t see it anymore. So that’s so much of of modern medicine is like that. And people are unfairly asking their doctors to treat things that are emotional and spiritual. And so we have to look at energy first, look at our emotions. How are our emotions engaged? How what is our energy like? If I have this conflict of the stress, what is my energy in that situation? Can I change my energy if someone’s being mean to me or nasty, maybe they really are being abusive, but what is my energy? Uh, Jesus said, do good to them that hate you. In the Yoga Sutras in the eastern tradition, Patanjali says, be really nice to people who are really nice to you. And when people are not nice to you at all, be really nice. Be extra nice to them.

JEAN: Yeah, right. Yeah.

ALISON: That’s right. And that shifts the energy.

Dawon Chruch: Shifts the energy. What does it do for them? Who cares? What does it do for you? Reduces your stress. You’re giving yourself a gift.

ALISON: I find you very calming and very hopeful. And it makes me feel like sometimes I have felt, um, stuck in my head. And I just feel like after this conversation, very, very hopeful. So for people like me, um, I read Bliss Brain, and um, Mind over Matter. Do you do you think my next step would be going to your website and seeing what sort of courses would be useful?

Dawon Chruch: Yeah, we have a lot of courses that are targeted, like we have a relationship skills course, for example, that trains people to use tapping, meditation, active listening, nonviolent communication in their relationship. So it’s a relationship issue. We really recommend that. In fact, we recommend that that everyone take a relationship course like that. Because if you have skills, about 90% of the friction in your relationship vanishes. Even if your partner or your kid or your parent or whoever it is is doing nothing, they don’t have to change at all. If you shift your energy, then the whole relationship changes because we, our families are constellations and they are are our energy matrixes. And one person changes and the whole matrix changes. So we have we have courses for relationship. We have a fibromyalgia course. We have courses for weight loss. Uh, I don’t know how many clinical trials there are probably at this point, over 20, showing that people who use EFT tapping and and self-calming techniques for weight loss, like they’ll crave those potato chips, they’ll crave that ice cream, whatever it might be that their fatal food is, and you start training them to tap while they use it. We did one study with MRIs, and we found that people, when they’re exposed to images of those foods in the MRI, their emotional brain lights up.

Dawon Chruch: The the part of the brain that has to do with food does not light up. The part of the brain has to do with emotion lights up. So those foods are emotional. And when we stick them back in, the MRI is after tapping with them for a while. It doesn’t. So they’re they, they they not only do they lose weight, we now track them up to two years afterwards and their weight keeps dropping because they’ve now built this into their their behavior. So we have weight loss courses, trauma courses, uh, and anxiety course and insomnia course. So there are all kinds of resources like that on our website and are are certified practitioners. They’re highly trained. They’re if they’re up there on the website, they’re good because they have to go through a lot, a lot of training to get to be there. And if they’re there, they’re they’re they’re they’re able to help with things like like trauma, like like like prenatal trauma, early life trauma. And so there are so many resources available and we just don’t have to keep on suffering the way we used to. Like I, friends say to me recently , my friend said to me, Dawson, we are tapping. We have meditation, we can fix ourselves. My parents, they just suffered, and you don’t have to suffer the way our parents did. We have all of these these wonderful techniques. Eft now is being used by something like 40 million people worldwide in developed countries, Western Europe, places we can track statistics. About 1 in 5 people is now meditating. That’s up from 1 in 100. In 1980. So we’ve had this explosion in meditation, in stress reduction courses. And this is producing a radical global mind shift as well. It may not be obvious on the news, but, uh, human society is changing in a big way, led by shifts in consciousness. And we’ll we’ll live in a very different world than 5 or 10 years. And we live in now, just as a result of human beings becoming more compassionate, becoming more aware and looking out for that, uh, that all that is, that is the foundation of consciousness.

ALISON: Thank you so much.

JEAN: You you are giving us so much… Your website is called, Up Life.

Dawon Chruch: The best way for people to get access to that, is through a website called Dawson(my name),  Dawsongift.com

Dawon Chruch: Because then you’ll get a free download of the tapping manual of the meditation. And then that’s where all the practitioner listings are. All the courses are available from that. So that’s Dawsongift.Com is the best way for everything that I mentioned here.

ALISON: Great, great. Thank you so much. Can we talk to you again when you write your next book?

Dawon Chruch: Oh please do. It’ll be fine.

ALISON: I will love that.

ALISON: You’re really fantastic.

JEAN: Wonderful, brilliant man and spirit. So thank you for everything.

Dawon Chruch: It’s a joy to share. Absolute joy to do this.

ALISON: So thank you…Continue to have a great day.

Dawon Chruch: Thank you,

JEAN: Thank you.

ALISON: Bye bye.

ALISON: Oh my gosh, he’s amazing, right?

JEAN: He is. I call him Awesome Dawson.

ALISON: He needs a bumper sticker that says that.

JEAN: Yes,

ALISON: He is so… I felt like there are so many things that he was saying that I could definitely use help with, and things that I could definitely see myself benefiting from. His techniques and his books are fantastic because he really explains the brain, and he really explains how things like take a shortcut when you don’t want them to, when you want them. And I’m, I’m definitely going to check out his website more thoroughly and see how I can help myself.

JEAN: I yeah, why not? And talk about true self empowerment– that we can look within ourselves to heal, um, these thoughts and or what’s another word than heal, but release these thoughts and let the new norm be happiness. Not always be heavy hearted or slightly depressed and anxious. You know, it is a training.. Training, consistency, repetition. So, um, there’s that phrase that says your thinking is the beginning and end of suffering.. You know, it all starts with with your thoughts. Right? And most of us were not taught how to think beautifully and how to deal with our emotions and feelings.  So, um, and he mentioned that.

ALISON: Yea, And I liked his.. He was so positive and light, like you were saying earlier. His laugh. Yeah. You know, he just took it. Um, he really feels I feel his passion and I, I feel really these interviews… I’m just so amazed by all the human beings that are out there. And I love that he he resonated with what Sonia said, which is the world is a place that’s changing and consciousness and a higher consciousness. And, you know, we’re on an important journey here with all this, you know?

JEAN: Yeah, we are. And I’m so glad I’m in this journey on this journey with you, Allison.

Dawon Chruch: Me too. Jeannie, we hope you enjoy this and really check out his website. He said it was Dawsongift.

JEAN: Okay, great. And just one last thing. He also has a podcast called High Energy Health. And wow, he has some beautiful guests. So talk about sharing goodness in the world.

ALISON: So that’s right.

JEAN: Thank you Dawson.

ALISON: And right and let’s just start tapping. Let’s all just do it. That’s Jean tap dancing. Bye.

JEAN: Bye.

JEAN: Are we on?

Alison : We are on. I did it again.

JEAN: You’re just so great at this, Alison.

Alison : So professional.

JEAN: Yeah. And you’re doing this early in the morning for us.

Alison : We never talk early in the morning unless one of our guests is far away. Which, which Sonya is.

JEAN: Yeah. So today we’re interviewing Sonia Choquette, and she’s coming to us from England..

Alison : I think that’s very exciting. She, um, she’s been talking and explaining and working with intuition for so many years, right?

JEAN: Yeah. I think I read over 40 years or close to 40 years. And she’s written, I believe, about 28 international best selling books on the power of intuition and your soul. And, uh, I think her time right now is, is really high for her because people are very interested in more of the metaphysical nature of life.

Alison : That’s exactly right. And her books are so easy to understand. Yeah. And she feels like she’s talking to you. So this is really exciting.

JEAN: Yeah, it’s it truly is. And all the examples she gives in the book.  So, um, I’m so happy to be interviewing her. This was a delight to see her say, ” yes” and she would be on our show.

Alison : So here we go.

Alison : Hello,

JEAN: Hello. Good morning.. Or I should say good afternoon, or good evening?

Sonia: Hello, It’s almost 7 p.m..

JEAN: Wow! Sonia is so… Thank you so much for being on our podcast. My name is Jean.

Alison : I’m Alison.

Sonia: Nice to meet you both.

Alison : I love all everything you’ve done. And I’ve been inundated reading your books and trying to follow my gut feelings.

Sonia: I hope that you’re having fun with this. It’s such a, it usually feels so empowering when you start doing that.

Alison : It’s it’s very exciting. You’ve been doing this a very long time. And Jean and I were just saying 30, 25 years ago, this was not mainstream, was it?

Sonia: Oh, absolutely. I was out in the field hiding in the— ducking, ducking the potshots being thrown at me. But I’ve been at this for 50 years publicly. So I’m excited to see that the world is evolving and I have a theory about it.

Alison : I would love to hear that.

Sonia: Well, you know, we can afford to be checked out when everything is pretty predictable and doesn’t demand our attention. But since Covid and post-Covid, all hell’s broken loose. You know, nothing’s predictable. So it is requiring everybody to not only check back in with their outer senses, but recognize that we need more than that. So it’s spontaneously creating a real availability to our inner senses. And so the time is now. I’ve just been patient.

Alison : That’s right. You’ve stuck to it. Yeah.

JEAN: You’ve been a woman ahead of your time. And I was sharing with Allison that I was introduced to your books, one of your books, about 30 years ago. So when you said, “yes” to being on our podcast, I was like, oh, she’s amazing. And I’m so inspired by all the wonderful books and information you’ve been sharing with people around the world. So, um, Sonia, I was curious if you could share with our listeners a little bit about your background, what got you so interested in the power of intuition?

Sonia: I come from a matriarchal family where, um, my mother was. A child bride. Prisoner of war. During World War Two, she lost her family. She lost her hearing. She married my father illegally, really at 15, and came to America. And so she was basically a child, and she very much faced the consequences that that the possibility of of real horrific death many times. But what kept her from it was her inner guidance.. It kept saving her life. So I grew up with a mother who would, first of all, she was deaf. And she said that was her biggest blessing because she didn’t have to listen to the crazy confusion and nonsense of the world. But she said,  we have an inner voice and that’s the one that kept her alive. And she said, that’s the one that we need to listen to. So I grew up in a context, in a family where our inner voice was the first sense, it was the one to listen to, and she empowered us at seven years old and we were six siblings that she empowered. She wasn’t entrenched in the world, the external world. She didn’t have to win approval of others. She was an artist. She was in her studio. She was in her home. She didn’t really care what other people thought. It wasn’t part of her value system, and she taught us not to either.

Sonia: It’s like, you know, who cares if it’s going to save your life, to trust your vibes, that you’re going to do! So I don’t have an experience of not trusting my vibes or not being connected, but what I do have is an observation. That people who are disconnected from their inner guidance are have the worst disability of all. They’re just at the mercy of the world, pulling them this way and that and losing their way. So I started very young, teaching people. First. I started doing readings and it was really a game. I was one of seven kids I just wanted to be. The game of our family was trust your vibes. And my game was I’ll be the best!  so by the time I was 12 or 13, I was already attracting the attention of neighbors and eventually the police and different things. But I was not enjoying just serving as other people’s inner guidance. I, I was scared for people. I wanted to say, you need this. So my first class, I was 15 years old when I taught my first class and like, wait a minute, there’s one better than coming to me. Turn your own light on and that was just our way. That was my way. And I don’t have an experience of any other way.

Alison : Mhm. That’s exciting. That’s an exciting in a way. Right?

Sonia: It was exciting. But I also, what was exciting for me is I could turn that light on in people.

JEAN: Right, right.

Sonia: That was my excitement is to have someone who’s going completely living for approval and feeling lost and giving their power away and being confused, to I know who I am, and I know what is good for me. I know what is not good for me and I don’t need anyone’s approval. I’m going to follow my inner guidance and I’m going to be true to myself. And that was my… and that has always been my reward.

Alison : Yeah, there’s a real peace to being authentic once you finally get it.

Sonia: You’re right. You’re so right. Because we are energetic beings. So if you’re authentic, it affects those around you and they entrain into that frequency. It gives everybody permission and invitation and permission to resonate at that level. And so I think it’s the only way for our planet to have a future. And that’s why I’m so excited. It’s finally mainstream.

Alison : That’s exactly right. I was I’m sure you get this question 100 times a day. Can you explain to us and me the difference between intuition, wishful thinking and worry?

Sonia: I can. It’s a language thing to some degree, because when we say intuition, we wuse the language of follow your feelings, right? But people confuse that because they think follow my emotions. But I am actually saying intuition is not emotion. It is feeling like energy, like feeling– right on your skin. Follow that inner vibration which actually is not emotional. It’s very calm, it’s very quiet and it’s very consistent. That’s how you know it’s intuition. It’s the voice that says, don’t go there and  your emotional self says, but I wanna to go there… that looks so fun… that looks like such a good relationship. Don’t go there. Oh, but it’s a nice person. He’s just he’s just wounded. I’ll help him. Don’t go there. Oh, well, that job will make me money, so I’ll overlook the fact that it’s in a nuclear waste plant or whatever.

Alison : Right.

Sonia: So your wishful thinking will go up and down and try to talk you in to things, and it’s restless and it contracts–worry really contracts. It’s noisy, it’s agitating, and it leaves your body, um, contracted because you’re protecting yourself. The energy goes in where intuition expands. It’s quiet. It doesn’t have a lot of words and it doesn’t vacillate. So if you start paying attention to your body, that’s why we say feeling, but I like to use the word now sense. Pay attention to what you sense, not what you feel. And that will help you get a little bit more dialed into it.

JEAN: Right? Right.

Alison : That’s really interesting because I have in my life, I think I’m better now, but in my life had a lot of worry about things. Um, and yet I’ve also had moments of very clear intuition.

Sonia: What causes the worry, is that you may have actually been tuning in to what was not sound, reliable… what might be dangerous, might be pay attention, but you had no power to voice that and make a change.  So because that’s crazy. You’re a weirdo. What are you talking about? Where’s the evidence? And that no longer is the pushback. In fact, anybody who says that to me today, I say, oh, you’re so last century. That is you know, that is so.. you are so a flat Earther.

Alison : That’s right..we’ve moved on.

Sonia: Right. Really we’ve advanced– so, when you do worry, voice it.   I say, what are you afraid of? Just what are you afraid of? What are you afraid of? That is actually a tool that I use called empty the garbage. And you keep saying that….what are you afraid of? And what are you afraid of? And then, I’ll say, what do you see right in front of you? And then, if they start to get to a point where, well, I’ve said it all, then I say, put your hand on your heart. What does your spirit say? What is your inner guidance saying? And it’ll pop right out. So sometimes a worry is a legitimate intuitive signal to make a change. And it’ll consume you if you ignore it. It’s when you acknowledge it and act on it that it calms down.

Alison : Right.

JEAN: You say, um, very much how putting language to what you’re feeling, where you’re feeling it is very important. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Sonia: Well, we have been gaslit for 2000 years that has been saying or 200 years or whatever in the Middle Ages when they started saying your spirit doesn’t exist and you can’t be empowered. We were muted. So we would have these feelings and we were shamed and shunned. Believe me I was the I’ve got it all. You know you’re a weirdo. You’re not you’re crazy. You’re the devil. I mean the, the repertoire of banishment to the inner self has been pretty intense. So the, the self-protective instinct was to be silent. But if you don’t name it, you ignore it, right? When you name it, you claim it. That’s real. Now, you don’t have to go ring your bell and convince anybody else to acknowledge it but you. So I have a tool. I say to people, just say, this works for me. This feels right for me. And I’m going with it, because then, you know, you nobody can push back. It’s like I am choosing to go with this. It works for me. Where in the past we felt we had to get approval. We had to get we had to get an authority figure to say, okay, we’re going, you can listen to that and we’re going to put importance on that. Mhm. So the things that’s changed in the culture, we really don’t feel the need for that approval because all the people that we were looking for that approval from are nuts. And we’re looking all those people and  so we don’t need to ask you anymore. You blew it. You have no credibility. So that’s another benefit of the chaos of the world is we are now coming back for self direction.

JEAN: It’s forcing us to. Right? It’s forcing us to be to become self empowered. Capital “s” Self.

Sonia: Yes. And and to think, well, who on Earth would you give your power to these days?  That is a scary thought. And though and  yet there are those who choose to still because they don’t want to be responsible, they don’t want to have any accountability for their life. Okay. So I also say, when it comes to listening to your vibes, that is probably the most self-empowering, self acknowledging choice you can make, but it’s not going to be necessarily one that’s shared by everybody you know, so don’t need it to be. Just don’t need it to be just. And don’t make them wrong either. That’s why I come back to well, this works for me, right?

JEAN: It’s a great. That’s a great, uh, honoring sentence. Clean and clear.

Sonia: It works. I have had so many people say you’re ridiculous, and they’ll say, I’m okay with that. It works for me, right? I’m okay. You know, you’re you’re a weirdo. Can be perceived that way. It works for me, right? Stops the stops the the the gaslighting. Yeah. And and that it definitely because that’s gaslighting. And then, you know, it happens and you can try this. It’s so fun. Within a few minutes of you just holding your truth and holding a like, I’m empowering, I’m empowered. I’m not living for your your approval. Um, within ten minutes they’re going to say, well, what do you feel for me?  within ten minutes, within ten minutes of them realizing that their approval isn’t going to doesn’t have any weight anymore, they’re going to then come back to. Well, actually, I’m scared to. Do you see anything for me? that’s pretty predictable.

Alison : Whenever you hold up a mirror, you always get that kind of a reaction. You know, when I was reading your book, the. I really felt a real sense that you have of compassion and responsibility. And it’s interesting the way the two go went hand in hand. And sometimes I have to say, the responsibility part of your book, I wanted to shirk, you know?

Sonia: Of course. That’s the only reason we don’t trust our vibes or own them or acknowledge them because we and we want to shirk them because we’ve been, again misled to believe we’re not capable of being responsible. And we are not able to make choices that will take care of us. But I simply suggest, well, who will then? Because that again. Who? That’s a scary thought.

Sonia: And even  I have to tell you a funny story, because I have a three year old granddaughter. And yesterday my daughter said to my granddaughter. You know, I don’t want you to eat that fruit because it’s not washed. So let’s just put it aside and eat it later. And she said, well, she said it might, it might make you sick. And my granddaughter said, well, I’m going to have to eat and I’m going to have to eat this and try it, because you never know until you try. And she just really was not going for that. But I think she’s an example of the new souls coming in.

Alison : Yes,

Sonia: I don’t think she’s exceptional. I think that’s just the new consciousness. It’s like, well, I’ll listen, I’ll take your input, but I’m going to have to really go with my own feeling here.  i just love.

Alison :  I love that… And you’re so right. And I think the idea of compassion in your words, even in this jump start your intuition bookk..Were you always this compassionate?

Sonia: Yeah, because I’m this intuitive and I know that people are suffering.  even if they’re externally arrogant and if they’re externally abusive and aggressive that I can get under that. And I feel that scared and pained self, and I do have compassion for that. I don’t get bullied by it. But I have compassion. It’s like you’re in pain. Yikes.

Alison : Right. And I think the hardest thing too is then the self compassion.

Sonia: Right

Alison : I think I have been so turned off from that and that.

Sonia: Women especially have been taught that if you have any sensitivity toward yourself, you’re being selfish and weak, and your job is to be a man with boobs and just be good soldiers and throw yourself on the fire and sacrifice yourself for the world. And so, it’s  our peers, these women that are all of a sudden coming back online and saying, you know what? I’m over that.

Alison : Yeah. Yeah.

Sonia: huge amounts of women are saying, you know what? I just can’t do that anymore..I can’t do it. I’m going with the official. I’m not available to that. And I’m going to take care of myself without guilt, and I’m going to be kind to myself. But it is an onboarding process. You have to do it in bite sizes, which is why Jump Start, I think, helps you do a little and see how that feels. Do a little more, see how that feels, because that’s the only way you’re going to do it at all.

JEAN: Can we talk about some ways to connect to your intuition?

Sonia: Sure.

JEAN: You know, not that, not that we’re ever disconnected, but…

Sonia: Well, we are. It’s like a radio station that we can turn off.

JEAN: Well said. So can we talk about, like, three ways to–.

Sonia: I’ll give you some real simple trick techniques. Intuition is actually just beneath our awareness. But what it requires is honesty. Okay.. You have to be honestly willing and the thing that intuition delivers is often information that invites a change. So you have to be willing to  contemplate and entertain a change of behavior or a change of direction or a change of status quo. So if we are not willing to entertain that, then we’re going to tune it out because it will make us uncomfortable. It’s what you said, Allison. It’s a little bit of that. It’s like, no, you know, so I say start small, let it be fun first, have some positive, non-threatening experiences, play some games. And my favorite intuition game is, I wonder.. I wonder?  The minute you say, I wonder, your eyes go up to the right side of your brain. Your heart opens and you’re not trying to figure it out. You’re just making yourself available for something. So I wonder, I wonder, say you’re at this, you’re applying for a new job. I wonder where I’ll have the best time? I wonder where I can be most creative? I wonder if I should go on this date? I wonder, I wonder what would be fun to do tonight?

Sonia: I wonder where we should go on a trip? I wonder where I’ll have new friends? Because I wonder is an invitation to allow yourself to entertain things that your defensive logic brain bats away like flies. They get in and then answer out loud instead of figure it out. I wonder… and then you start answering. I wonder if this gluten free bread might actually be better for me? I wonder if a mediterranean diet would be fun to try? I wonder if my back ache is connected to my very unhappy partnership? You know, you just wonder instead of have to know.  So get in the habit of wondering, hmm, I wonder– ???  that way it puts it in a realm of possibility that you can be informed, but you don’t have to act on it. That’s the trick around the ego. Second is, what does your heart say?  Put your hand on your heart and you don’t have to listen. You don’t have to listen. So here’s a tool that’s fun. Um, where would you like intuitive guidance? Who wants to be my guinea pig?

Alison : I will.

Sonia: Who wants to be my visual aid?… I need an honest question. That means you are truly available to an answer… You’re truly open to guidance.

JEAN: I am open to guidance. So ask you a question.

Sonia: Ask and if you’ll share with us what’s the question. And I’ll take you through the process of getting to an intuitive insight.

Alison : How can I find what I’m supposed to do now that I’m 65?

Sonia: Okay, so follow along and we’ll go quickly. Okay. Ready? My head says.

Alison : My head says, uh, do something very productive.

Sonia: Head says.

Alison : My head says, make a big change.

Sonia: My head says.

Alison : My head says you got to get out there and volunteer and do that kind of stuff.

Sonia: And my head says.

Alison : But my head says, you got to stay very busy to be worthwhile.

Sonia:  and I’m afraid of?

Alison : I’m afraid of failure. I’m afraid of of being, of being called lazy. I’m going to start to cry. I’m afraid of… I’m afraid of, um, uh, being vulnerable. I’m afraid of not finding something.

Sonia: Okay, hold on, take a breath. Ah, now look at something in front of you that’s beautiful. Just anything. Okay. What is it.

Alison : Jean.

Sonia:  Okay, perfect. What that does is that brings you back to the moment.  Again, my head says?

Speaker3: My head says that, I have to constantly have my time filled and be rushing around.

Sonia: I’m afraid of?

Alison : I’m afraid of, i’m afraid of being a nothing.

Sonia: Take a breath. Exhale. Ah, look at something beautiful. Put your hand on your heart.. And my spirit says?

Alison : My spirit says, have fun.

Sonia: And my spirit says?

Alison : You know, it’s great that you started tap dancing. That could be just it.

Sonia: And my spirit says.

Alison : I think you should try ukulele.

Sonia: Take a breath. And how does your body feel? I have one more question… My last question is what your spirit says true?

Alison : Yeah.

Sonia: Okay. There you go. You know, the two are very different… They’re very different frequencies.

Alison : And I could feel and hear my body when you were talking about what does your head and what are you afraid of? I felt like I was way up here.

Sonia: Oh yes…You were. You were in your head– now you got connected to your truth? Your whole voice changed, your face changed. Your light came out. You relaxed. You opened, contract it, contract it, contract it.

Alison : Yeah.

Sonia: The reason I say take a breath and what do you look at, is because it brings you back to your body and back to the moment.

Alison : right.

Sonia: And that’s how you have access. It’s that simple. It took us two minutes.

Alison : Right. I feel very relaxed.

Sonia: And then you have a choice. You can listen to your head, right? There’s no party there, is what my friend said. No party going on there. Or you can listen to your spirit. You have a choice. It’s important to give yourself that choice.

Alison : And do you still do things like this to yourself during the day? Or are you like…

Sonia: No, I’m Just tuned in. I’m like the I’m the Princess and the pea,  if it’s even the slightest bit off, I of course correct.

Alison : Really? Yeah.

Sonia: I can’t stand it. I cannot stand physically to be even a breath in my head.

Alison : Wow

Sonia: It’s so alien to me that it feels dangerous. I call it a bad neighborhood. I write in my books, it’s a bad neighborhood. And your ego is a barking dog in a bad neighborhood, and nothing’s good going to happen there. So get out of Dodge.

Alison : Yeah. In the society that we’re in now with social media and being inundated, inundated all the time, how how can I or how can anyone get in touch with their intuition, with all of that? You just shut it off.

Sonia: Well, it’s a couple things– the one factor that will change everything is to own that you have a choice. Have a choice on where I’m placing my attention. I have a choice on it, but I don’t have a choice on how it’s affecting me.

Sonia: So then we have to go back to discernment. Social media is there, but I find that it is a tool when it’s used in small doses. And it’s a poison when it’s used to go back in your head and check out and numb out.  So it is a tool for communication. I appreciate it, but I, I find real life more interesting. And so, (and I it could be partly my age) I, show up to social media as a tool to communicate, but I don’t show up as a way to look for myself.

Alison : Right.

Sonia: And that’s where I think if you’re looking, I mean, the first commandment is not to have false gods. So I always look at social media and don’t let it become a false god.

Alison : Right.

Sonia: That’s really important. And to be discerning, like pay attention after you’re scrolling for 45 minutes, how do you physically feel?

Alison : Kind of sick.

Sonia: You feel kind of sick, because you’re in your head. You know, the thing about being in your head, and this is biology, it can’t connect.  Everything is over there. So it’s very isolating. And that’s what makes us sick. We are creatures who are designed to be connected to ourselves, to others, to the Earth, to the universe. And when we get so disconnected, it’s like a plant, it’s like a flower in a vase with no water.

Sonia:  It really is very, very measurable. So use it as a tool. But don’t look for yourself in something that’s artificial.

Alison : Right.

JEAN: Sonia, do you meditate every morning?

Sonia: I do, I enjoy it.  I meditate twice a day, but I only meditate for ten minutes, 15 minutes. But I’m also in a constant state of connection. My head’s pretty quiet. I don’t have a lot of noise in my head. I don’t live there.  And when you’re present. You’re you’re in a meditative state. That’s what the goal of meditation is. So for me, a meditative morning or evening is just a check in with my Source. It’s like checking in with your best friend.. So that’s my why I enjoy it. So I show up to it because I get my guidance, I get my energy, I get everybody out of the pool, I get rejuvenated. But I’m not like, I’m not some kumbaya, manic, you know, meditator on a mountain. I think that’s your ego faking you out.

Alison : Mm hmm.

Sonia: I really do. I think that’s a bit of ego posturing to stay in control. I’m pretty at ease, now. I think we don’t have to contrive.

Alison : Yeah

Sonia: We’re designed to be, we are divine creatures. We are divine spirits that are designed to be connected and to be quiet and to be present. And if anything, the best way to get there is just turn on some music and sing and dance for 15 minutes.  It isn’t difficult. It’s simply a matter of your ego getting out of the way and you don’t have to– I always say your ego is like your barking dog. You don’t have to shoot the dog, okay? You just train the dog. Train the dog to  just step aside, okay? Some people think, oh, I have to meditate and shoot the dog. And it’s like, good luck with that. But you don’t.

Sonia: You just have to know that’s my ego. I’m not going to give it that much attention.

Alison : You’re very funny.

Sonia: I am very funny. But so is spirit.

Alison : Humor ,I think is the best… You’re cracking me up. Humor is the best way, I think to open up to all this. Yes…?

Sonia: Humor is God walking through your bones.

Sonia: Humor is God sprinkling through your nervous system. It it’s the great connector. It is to yourself, to others, to life, to goodness. So, um, we are funny.

Alison : I agree right.

JEAN: To your point in your book and what Allison just said, that laughter really has that power to lighten.

Sonia: It brings you back to spirit. It brings you back to your spirit. When you laugh, your ego lets go. Yeah. And you come back to your true self. And this isn’t about snarkiness and that it’s about really being delighted, which means filled with light, right?

JEAN: That’s so beautiful I love that. Delighted.

Sonia: Yeah, that’s what it means, of the light. And so when you’re delighted, you’re back in your light, you’re back and you’re, you know, anybody laughing from that place is aligned with their spirit. They’re clear. They lose confusion. It’s all good again. And it really is a change of channel instead of some big struggle like a cat in a bag, you know… We just shift.

Alison :  yea, and it’s really so present.

Sonia: Yes.

Alison : You know, you’re it is right there. Like sometimes when Jean and I start laughing you feel like, oh my gosh. Like, this is the only moment.

Sonia: Do you know what I think it is? I think it’s an exorcism of all the demons in your head.

Speaker3: Yeah, I totally agree. What do you enjoy the most about life?

Sonia: I love people. I think you can tell I love bringing the spirit out in people. It is even the most curmudgeon person has got a spirit in there, and I love seducing that spirit forward and having that shared connection and I, I love I really love the world. I travel a lot. I live part time in Paris, part time in London. I love adventure and I love that this world, you know, don’t believe what you read on the news. The world is beautiful and people are basically really good.

JEAN: Yeah.

Sonia: And what we’re given is a is a selected view that wants to keep us afraid. But a couple years ago, there was a big scene here in Paris about the election. The people were were on having manifestations and riots and whatever. And everybody was calling me and I said, yeah, until lunchtime or dinner. And then everybody went home and went back to their families. It wasn’t perpetual. All hell break loose. It was moments that were broadcast  and it was right outside my window…But the same people that are screaming at each other back and forth were having tea and on the on the break because hey, you got to go have your, your break. So don’t believe what you’re shown. It’s not the truth.

JEAN: Yeah.

Sonia: Connect with humans and then you’ll have your own experience. And that’s the only truth you really can use anyway.

JEAN: Yes– Sonia, are you working on anything? Now that you want to give a shout out.

Sonia: I actually am. There’s two things I’m working on for people who are interested. If it’s very immediate that they’ll listen to this. I have a course that I’m releasing called True Balance, which is how to understand your anatomy and your energetic anatomy and how to take care of yourself in today’s world. So that’s something that will be released, um, in the next few days. And then I have a book coming out in the fall that I’m very excited about called Read Life. Oh, how to recognize what’s really going on. And it’s about, you know, read the room, read people, read the situation, quit pretending you don’t get it right. Because I actually think we do get it and choose not to.

Alison : Right.

Sonia: And if you want to have some fun, work with my Oracle cards. Ask your guides. My new deck. That was just re put out there. It’s so full of energy and life and people are having a very fun experience.

Alison : Oh I’m definitely going to do that. Yes. That’s fantastic.

JEAN: Wow.

Alison : That’s a one way to get right into this field without making it difficult.

Alison : Yeah, yeah…You’re so open and I feel like you’re my friend.

Sonia: I am, I only talk to the spirit in people and the spirit in  all of us are deeply connected.

Alison : Yeah.

JEAN: That is so beautiful, so true.

Sonia: And, um, I’m so honored that you invited me to have this, this moment with you and to share these things with your beautiful people. It’s really been a gift.

Alison : Thank you. I feel that the same way about you. You’re really just so, you know, you’re not intimidating at all. You’re so, you’re so accessible.

Sonia: Iam a nice, loving, bright light that wants you to to experience the best of you.

Alison : Yes, you. Thank you.

Sonia: You know, the word psychic is a word that scares people because it’s like a knife. It cuts through– psychic. But what it means is, it cuts..I cut through all the illusions, and I see you and what people are not expecting is your beautiful. You’re just beautiful. And I want you to see that too.

Alison : Thank you, thank you. So you’ve made our whole day. It’s just the beginning of our day. So we’re going to be floating.

Sonia: So you get to go have fun and thank you all my love. And if anybody wants to learn more about me I have.. oh this is fun thing.. I’ll just tell you one more thing. I have a podcast with my daughters.

JEAN: Oh!

Sonia: And it’s so fun because we just talk about our lives and living together and growing up and being intuitive. And it’s pretty… they’re pretty funny too. So it’s called it’s all related. So if anybody wants to check that out, it’s all related. It’s another fun invitation into this awakened state.

Alison : Thank you.

JEAN: So beautiful.

Alison :  Have a beautiful evening.

JEAN: Your Light is such a blessing. Thank you Sonia.

Sonia: Thank you. Bye bye.

JEAN: That was great.

Alison : I’m as light as a feather. And I loved that.

JEAN: I loved the process she took you through.

Alison : Yes. And I really, it was emotional. And I feel so nice right now.

JEAN: Yeah.

Alison : Like. And I’m glad you were there because I felt like you’re you you’re just a positive force for me. And you do keep me grounded. So I was glad you were there. And, you know, I felt a little vulnerable, but I really just wanted to be honest. And I thought she was so graceful and heartfelt and beautiful, I felt safe.

JEAN: Yeah. Me too. Well, I do think girlfriends do that. And just friends doesn’t have to be girlfriends. Friends do that for each other. We we help each other get out of our, that thinking mind so much and come back into the heart. And Sonia absolutely champions the power of your heart as this, as the seat of intuition and your gut. You know those two places, um, and you and I were talking a little bit before how intuition is really like the truth of empowerment. Your own empowerment.

Alison : Right. And this book, I just think this book is fantastic. And you and I both did it. 21 days To Jump Start your Intuition… And it’s just bits and pieces. It’s like like a little meal and you can have bits and pieces and try it and see what you like and see what works. And I thought it was very, very beautiful. And after talking with Sonia, I mean,  the energy that I felt of just acceptance and love and fun.

JEAN: Yeah. and that’s been her motto all throughout any book that I’ve read of hers. It’s just like, here, try this, here’s this, this is what works. Here’s a tool, here’s something that, uh, will get you back to your true divine power.

Alison : And the idea of, So I guess my wish for everyone today is to laugh with something or about something. Or have some fun today.

JEAN: Have some fun. Like listen to a funny movie. And like Sonia said, dancing, sing. Just get out of your noggin and back into your soul.

Alison : Get out of your noggin.  I love that, I love that, okay, I got to get out of my noggin, right? We hope you have a beautiful day. And thank you for listening.

JEAN: Yes. Enjoy everything.

Alison : Bye.

Jean: Hi. Good afternoon.

Alison: You sounded like…  good afternoon, how may I help you on insidewink… Who can I connect you to? hahaha   —Okay, so today….

Jean: We are connecting you to Sam..

Alison: Mitchell.

Jean: Right? Who is on the autism spectrum?

Alison: Correct.

Alison: And he he contacted us because a while back we did, um, Emily Grodin, we interviewed Emily Grodin, and he loves Emily, and said, I want to do that too. So he contacted us and Sam started a podcast, and an organization called Autism Rocks and Rolls.

Jean: That’s a great title.

Alison: Yeah, yeah. And he was. I really enjoyed him. And we also spoke to his mom.

Jean: Yeah. And you can see that  these children that are on the autism spectrum, how vitally important their parents are.

Alison: Yeah, they really are so close and they really are the advocates, you know. And so, um, Sam, though we want to mention, we interviewed him while he was in the car… And so the sounds a little weird.

Jean: Yes. And then we lose connection with him..

Alison: No, but, i think we took that out.

Jean: Okay, great.

Alison: But if not, you’ll understand.

Jean: But the sound isn’t as great as we would like it, so we apologize in advance for that. But the, um, the meat and the message of the interview is really wonderful.

Alison: Yeah, he’s a great guy. He just is, uh, so proactive. So here, listen first and then we’ll come back.

Sam: Yodelayheehoo.

Alison: What a way to start with a nice yodel.

Jean: Thank you.

Sam: Thank you for your attention. Not a problem.

Alison: That’s great. How are you doing?

Sam: Good. Not too bad. You?

Alison: Very, very well. We’re so proud that you contacted us to talk about, “Autisim rocks and rolls”.

Sam: Well. Thank you. I saw, I was just doing some digging on Emily, and I’m just trying to follow her, follow her steps, I guess.

Alison: Yeah. Emily, we love Emily. Yeah.

Jean: And her mom is amazing. So, Sam, I’m Jean.

Alison: And I’m Alison.

Sam: Nice to meet you both.

Alison: So how how is it going for you with with your podcast and with your website and your nonprofit?

Sam: Um, well, it’s going decent. We, um, I run the podcast. I have sponsors for it. I have a board for the nonprofit, and then I do speaking engagements. I’ve spoken in Oklahoma, Orlando, Canada, DC, and then let’s see what else in Stuart, Florida as well and some events in Indiana, which is where I’m from.

Alison: Oh that’s excellent. You live in a small town in Indiana, right?

Sam: Yeah, very small rural country.

Jean: So Sam, let’s start off with, um, autism, the meaning of autism and and what it means to be on the spectrum.

Sam: I didn’t realize that was a question. So, um, for me, it means that there’s a different way of thinking. Um, but I know society thinks that’s a neurological term condition, like it’s just a basic disorder. And I don’t see that. I just see it as a different perspective of life.

Alison: Is that your mom?

Sam: Yes.

Alison: Hi, mom…Okay. Hi, mom. We love you, mom.

Sam’s mother – GINA : Thank you. I love you guys, too. I love everybody.

Alison: That’s good.

Jean: That’s a great motto.

Jean: And so, Sam, what is something that you would like people to know about autism? That someone that doesn’t have autism. What would you like people to know?

Sam: That their perception is all not correct. One of the guests that I had on we literally had the interview, stopped me in the middle of it for five minutes. And his he said, and I quote, wait a minute, you’re autistic. There’s a point to this story, I promise. And his reign, when he was in his interview, he was expecting me to be wheelchair bound and not able to talk. Like, basically I had the mind of a two year old. Which I won’t lie, there’s some that have that population and there’s some like that, but then there’s this whole other population that is not that person at all. They’re high functioning or I hate that, really, but they just have they don’t need much support as the other person does. But they are successful. They’re going to college. They got a job as a doctor. They’re a chef. I mean, they’re doing something.

Alison: Which is so right, you know. Um, I think you at one point, your quote is there’s no normal in the world. Which I really love. What does that mean to you?

Sam: Well, to me that means no one is really the same. To me, every person is a different human being. Maybe you’re good at math. I’m not saying you are. I don’t, no idea. But i’m not a math person. You could be. I’m an English person. You cannot be. I’m a person who enjoys the sun, hot weather.. The other person likes cold weather. And that’s my friend, which I think is crazy for, but it’s just opposite personalities. And really, who cares? He can like the cold weather. Go have fun. Go have fun in an igloo, I don’t care.

Alison: Yeah that’s right, I totally, I totally agree with you, Sam.

Jean: 100% and, i love that your perception is so non-judgmental. You are choosing to see people for what’s withinside of them and how what they’re doing in the world and how they’re being in the world. Not not as going through life with a label or in a box. And I, I think your podcast and what you’re doing….

Sam: Well, I just believe that, I’m just saying that, with friends in particular too, i was just trying to tell them that, if you’re nice to me, we’re good to go. Like, I don’t care what we do. I’m the type of person that will go with whatever. Like, this is what I did this week.. with literally with a friend who’s also on the spectrum, we train watched, literally waited 15 minutes for a train.  And I’m not a person who’s a train guy. I never have been, I don’t care, I’ll do whatever. But we waited there for a train. The train didn’t come sadly, but I still deal with them just because I wanted to be around them.

Jean: Yeah, yeah.

Sam: Even though I’m not a train boy.

Alison: I love that. I love that you that you spent you just like spending time with him.

Sam: Yeah, that’s all I care about. They’re nice people. Why wouldn’t I? That’s all I care about. If you’re nice to me, we’re good to go.

Alison:  I love that. That’s going to be my new motto. Yeah. Can you tell me what brings you the most joy, do you think? What makes you the most happy?

Sam: I would say what makes me the most happy is just the times that I get with family and friends. I mean, I have a definitely a supportive family, even though that for the 15 years of my life, pretty much was socializing sucked. I had a supportive family and that’s what kept the ball going.

Jean: Yeah…That’s why it’s so important to have… really wonderful parents or a support team and friends.

Alison: Um, how did they support you? How did you feel their support?

Sam: They put this way. They weren’t strict, they had expectations, but they did their best to know what was like autism and what was not, because that can be very complicated. I mean, their child, who’s on the autism spectrum, is having a meltdown because of the buzzers, or is he throwing a tantrum because he didn’t get a teddy bear?

Alison: Oh…that’s so interesting. I never thought of it that way. And how did your parents and your family learn to differentiate between that?

Sam:  Why don’t we have one of the parents answer it. Yeah?

Alison: Gina, how did you learn to differentiate between, a tantrum or maybe the buzzer sound be, um, upsetting.

Sam: Hey, hold on, before you answer, I said buzzer sounds because I cannot ever go to a basketball game. Which is actually ironic, because now I have a job at my college where I’m now at the basketball game where I hear the buzzer is doing audio camera work. Go figure.

Sam’s mother – GINA : Um, yeah. So, I mean, when he was diagnosed, when he was four, I mean, we had a lot to learn. Um, I’m an educator, I’m a teacher. I’ve been a teacher for almost 20 years, and I had, uh, I mean, I did have kiddos that had autism in my classes, but I, you know, I knew very little when he was diagnosed, but, I mean, it was just kind of a trial and error and learning. Um, now, you know, I’m really good at detecting it just because we’ve had a lot of practice. Um, but people have to understand that a meltdown versus a temper tantrum are two totally different things. Um, a temper tantrum is usually pretty short lived, and it is, like Sam said, it’s triggered by something when a child, like, doesn’t get their way. And when children are learning how to, like, control their emotions. Um, a meltdown for somebody who’s on the spectrum, it isn’t a temper tantrum. If they could quit, they probably would. And they probably would like, want to because it isn’t enjoyable for them.

Sam’s mother – GINA : But in their brain, it’s just, you know, like if, for example, when Sam when he was when I was a teacher at the school he went to, I always wanted to take him to the ball games, and he just never knew when the buzzer was going to go off. And so, if you think about it, like if something startles us or somebody that doesn’t have autism, it’s just really annoying and you’re like, God, that really scared me. But for someone who’s on the spectrum, you take that times a thousand. That is literally what they hear because of the, um, the way that their brain is wired and that’s not controllable. So if it’s something they cannot work through, which because of the brain wiring, then it becomes much more than a tantrum and it could last for up to hours, until you as a parent figure out, you know, not to make them happy. You know, we never we never babysit them. And we never thought, well, you know, we’re going to give him what he wants.

Sam:  You held the fort down, but you weren’t, like…

Sam’s mother – GINA : Yeah, we weren’t strict, but we also had expectations. And I remember him saying, well, remember, mom, I can’t because I have autism. And I think he did that like twice in his life because I said, I said, well, I’m sorry, but you are. Yeah. Sorry. Like you’re gonna figure it out. We’re gonna figure it out because you don’t have an option.

Sam: I learned that the hard way.

Jean: You know, I found when I was hearing, uh, Sam’s Ted talk, I heard that it was very important for Sam to have structure in his life.

Sam’s mother – GINA : Yeah, that’s what I kind of viewed as, um, as far as that goes, that wasn’t really in my opinion, it really wasn’t an autistic thing. It was more of, this is something that my child needs. And I think as parents, I think we all do that. I think that we know, like, okay, even someone who’s not on the spectrum. So, okay, this child, if he or she doesn’t go to bed by like 9:30, then they’re a total bear the next day. That’s what they need. And so we work with them as far as doing that. But um, yeah, I just I knew I knew he needed to have structure and being an educator and then, you know, just paying attention and being an attentive parent, we figured out things, um, I just told the story the other day. When he was in preschool, he went to a special education preschool because I suspected that he had autism. And on the first day of preschool, it was great. He came home and he was like, I love it, mom. And I was so happy, but i think that day, for their specials, they had had like art class..and so he loved it when he went to school.  The next day they had music class and nobody told Sam that the routine was going to change. And he had like a huge meltdown. And so we put, um, things into place. We, you know, his teacher, uh, printed out these little pictures and he put Velcro in the back of them, and then he let Sam every day move the pictures so that, like, and told him… this is our schedule today. Totally solved the problem. And so as an educator and a mom, you know, or a dad who has a kid with autism, you  become really creative in what you do. But I think as a parent, I think we should all be doing that.

Alison: I agree.  That’s a great that’s a great solution. I listen to your Grandma Alice’s podcast with you. And I thought she was amazing. And what I got, um, what I took away was the idea of patience. How important patience is… Do you feel like you’re a patient person?

Sam: um, let’s just say it depends on what it is. Would you agree with me on that one? Because probably not the most at points, but it depends on what it is.

Jean: Okay, Sam, I just want to switch gears for a second here and ask you about your dating life. How is it to be in a relationship? Do you want to be? Is that something that’s…

Sam: Yeah. No. You’re right. I definitely want to be. But the hardest thing for someone on the spectrum, in my opinion, is socializing. One on one interviews is fine. But you put me in a big group, good luck with that. But what works for me is virtual. More than like doing in person. I know a lot of people have done in-person dating and virtual. I do virtual because what my thought process behind that is when I actually have time to think of the statement…. When we socialize right now, like you gave me these questions, I kind of got to be quick a little bit to a point to give an answer…But when I’m virtual, kind of like this as well, I have time to think versus if I need to talk to you right now in person, we do an in-person interview, i got to be quick because, like, you got lives and we can’t be here 50 minutes.

Alison: What would your advice be to someone that receives that they that their child has autism? What advice would you give them?

Sam: First of all, in my opinion, when you go online, be very careful. We’ve done the work online, we’ve done the research. It’s mostly negative. I’m not going to lie, it’s mostly negative. They say autism is a death sentence. When a parent goes read it, reads the information and they think their life is over. I don’t blame them. They’re kind of getting fed some wrong information now, should they know their child is going to have a meltdown? Yes, but here’s what you can do. We’re missing that part. Where’s the here’s what you can do for a meltdown. Not just autism people have a meltdowns. You’re really helping us. Yeah.

Jean: Sam, is there any organization? That has been very helpful to you and your family.

Sam: Yeah.  we can try that. That might be a question, but I would say that an organization that has been very helpful is really the help that I got from the family. I can’t really think of an organization off the top of my head. We’ve done a lot of things, but actually, scratch that, there is one thing that did help.. Taekwondo.

Sam: Uh, let’s give a shout out right now to Bloomington ATA Martial Arts Facility. They are a taekwondo facility, and I did some taekwondo there many moons ago, and I did actually for five years where I got my black belt. They helped me with self discipline, respect. And it wasn’t about, you know, punching the bag, kicking the bag. That was part of it. It was kind of fun to do. But it was more to that. The best part of martial arts is not the fighting, clearly, it’s about you growing as a human being, and if you’re not growing as a human being, you’re in martial arts for the wrong reasons.

Alison: Mhm. Mhm. That’s excellent. Wow. Yeah. You make me want to take martial arts. That’s excellent. Yeah, yeah. Uh who, who do you think some of your favorite guests have been on your podcast?

Sam: From a personal standpoint, there’s a lot of good people. Uh, Mick Foley probably is one of my favorites. Another guest I had, he’s a comedian from World’s Dumbest, Brad Loekle. He is an LGBTQ community comedian and he has a great sense of humor — he was a personal treat for me. I watched that guy when I was 15, and that was the point where my life stopped. And when I got to go home, I put on real dummies and saw him. He made my life a whole lot better, and I got to have the privilege of not only meeting the guy, but interviewing him.

Alison: That’s excellent. What are you studying in college?

Sam: Broadcasting.

Jean: Oh, that’s so perfect. That’s in alignment with what you’re already doing.

Sam: Yes, ma’am.

Alison: Thank you so much, Gina and Sam, we’ve loved talking to you. And we thank you.

Jean: Thank you for opening up our minds and our hearts to just seeing people

Alison: As they are

Jean: as they are.

Sam: That’s what we want to do at the end of the day.

Jean: That is true. Bye.

Alison: Have a great day. Bye.

Jean: Okay, well, that was great.

Alison: He was great. And I loved the fact that he reached out and contacted us. He he I love when people do that.

Jean: Yeah. And he has that personality kind of, uh, you know, just go for it.. And I love. Yeah. Very good.

Alison: And I so admire the fact that he started all of this. Right? Autism rocks and rolls. Um, when he was like 19 or 20, he’s doing a organization and this and he’s interviewing some incredible people.  I don’t know, I just, I, I really was taken with him.

Jean: Me too. And his mom, Gina was equally as wonderful.

Alison: What a treat that she chimed right in. Yeah.

Jean: And her being a teacher and you know her, I’m sure she must have really had to learn a lot to have a child on the spectrum. And and she’s wonderful.

Alison: She’s wonderful. I love, uh, it seems to be like a real theme to me in most of our interviews, people talk about how important relationships are and supportive relationships– here we’re seeing it in a mother/child, we’ve seen it in friends, we’ve seen it in partners.. And it’s just really hits it home on how important that is for our health.

Jean: Yeah, well, you are that for me.

Alison: Thank you.  You’re that for me too, my friend. So we hope you enjoyed this. And, Sam, thank you so much for reaching out to us.

Jean: Yes, Many blessings.

Alison: That’s right. Have a great day, everyone.

Jean: Bye bye.

JEAN : I’m wonderful. How are you?

ALISON : Good. I learned how to turn this on so nicely.

JEAN : You are getting so great at at being able to turn on and off our recording system.

ALISON : It’s, you know, it’s a real skill. It really is truly a skill.

JEAN : Well, better you than me.

ALISON : That’s right. That’s exactly right. And today we are talking to Kathy Giusti. And she is the author of,  Fatal to Fearless – 12 Steps to Beating Cancer in a Broken Medical System. And I have to tell you, she has done so much in her life. It’s amazing. She has started a multiple myeloma research foundation (MMRF). She’s worked with presidents. She’s worked on committees to pioneer new drugs at Harvard. Right. It’s amazing.

JEAN : Pharmaceutical executive for major companies. I do not know how she finds the time to to accomplish everything she does with such brilliance and heart. Right?

ALISON : How does she shower?

JEAN : Like maybe she hasn’t, like a special car. A car as she’s driving to work, that kind of dresses her and showers her, that wipes her down because she’s amazing. I felt a little on the slacker side, like I’m just not doing enough. But I think she speaks to that point a little bit at the end of her book that, um, you know, we do all have to embrace where we are in life and, and honor each other.

ALISON : And, and I love people that have embraced their powerhouse.

JEAN : Yeah. I mean, she was perfect to write this book. She came from such a wonderful background of the medical recovery.

ALISON : Yeah. And remission twice with cancer. Right,  and it’s just a very interesting story. And it’s a memoir and a sort of a guide.

JEAN : And a workbook. Right. And I do wish I had had this book when, when Alex was diagnosed. And it would have been helpful. Um, but I’m so looking forward to interviewing this brilliant, beautiful woman.

ALISON : That’s right. Okay, here we go. Okay.

JEAN :  This is so great. We’ve been really looking forward to meeting you, Kathy. And my name is Jean.

JEAN : And I’m Alison.

KATHY : Hi, Jean and Alison.

ALISON : Thank you so much. Your book is just, uh, wonderful. Uh, I couldn’t put it down.

KATHY : Oh, good. I’m glad.

ALISON : And the memoir part really spoke to me because I really feel like I got to know you and your family, and I found it very moving and very, um, accessible.

KATHY : Yeah, I think that happened because, you know, I started out with writing a what to do book and, um, the publisher really wanted it to be a what to do book. But, um, you know, in writing it, I had to go back and read all of the journals that I had started writing for our daughter Nicole, when she was just one. And when all of a sudden you’re going through all the journals, you can kind of read between the lines, and it’s what I said, you know,– I know what I did right, what I did wrong, and what I didn’t do at all. And, you know, you really it takes time to just sit and reflect on all of it and on the on the impact it has on family, which obviously, you know all too well.

JEAN : Yeah. Yeah. Well, reading your book, I did think to myself, wow, I could have used this book and, and have already shared your book with, with a friend. So thank you for taking the time to do this book.

ALISON : My brother in law passed away just recently from multiple myeloma, and…

KATHY : oh, I’m sorry.

ALISON : Yes, and I’m reading this and I’m crying and I just thought, you know, thank goodness for you. Like, the impact you’re having on so many people is like, are you aware of that? Like, like what is that feel like as a human being?

KATHY : You know, I  think it’s one of these things where,  you just have to believe things happened for a reason, for some strange reason. Right? And I think I had this ideal background, kind of crazy to take on the medical system.  And if I didn’t have the right background to do it, I’m not sure I could have been as successful as we were. So I, I definitely got the sense of the progress in myeloma and how many lives we were saving in that field. I think it was when I went on to teach up at Harvard Business School and worked with all the other foundations, um, that I really started to see the impact of our knowledge and how to build really innovative nonprofit models that I could see the impact across all cancers and even all diseases. It’s really good to understand the physical journey that cancer will take, but I think the book took me one step further, unexpectedly, because I’m really quite a private person to share, um, that it’s all about relationships and, you know, the impact that disease can have on those relationships. And I think that became kind of the third leg to my stool of, okay, here are the things I hope I can give back.

ALISON : I think it’s um, I think your book is a love story.

KATHY : Yeah. Somebody said that to me. They said somebody said they felt it was a love story to my family and friends. Right. Um. And I felt, um, that it was more of a love story that i was writing to the patients.  Because, um, you know, really, I think what threw me off so much, you know, you can read that book and know that I was feeling like, oh, my God, I was so urgent, so passionate, all of these things. And it took a toll on my family. And so I had regrets about that in the book. But I feel like I know what it’s like to be a patient, and I know what it’s like to have that knot in the stomach. And I know the fear that you have. And so I had no boundaries. If they had just gotten diagnosed and wanted to talk to me at 9:00 at night, I talked to them at 9:00 at night. If they wanted to talk to me on a Saturday, while I was driving David to a baseball game, I would take the call just because I knew how scared they were, and I didn’t want to make them wait. But, you know, on the other hand, you know, boundaries are probably a good thing. And I think the patients have been completely understanding. If I said, can I just wait and call you tomorrow morning? Right. So, you know, these are just lessons learned in life, that you think everything is urgent. You think you’re the only one that can do it. You’re the only one that’s going to make them play right in the sandbox. And then you realize, you know, there are other people just as smart as me and as capable as me or can be trained, you know, to work with me and have that same kind of attitude and approach.

JEAN : It is a it’s amazing how cancer or any life threatening disease really throws your your perception of life into what’s important. And not only the patient, but all, you know, the orbit around us. Um.

KATHY : Absolutely. And I think, you know, what you find is, you know, there’s over 100 types of cancer, right? So it doesn’t matter which one you hear. All you hear is the word cancer. And all of a sudden, you know, we all say like there’s life before the day you got diagnosed, and then there’s life after. And you just wish you could go back to that life before. But you’re not allowed. It’s it’s not going to happen. You have to do your best to make the life that is now given to you. And I think the other thing is, for those of us that really understand oncology, we know that one cancer is not another cancer. And you know that pancreatic is tough. Brain tumors are really tough. And so there’s some cancers that are they’re just really challenging. And even today in this world of amazing immunotherapy, which is making a big difference, not every cancer is responding the same way to immunotherapy. So some cancers see more promise right now than others. And I think it’s important for patients and caregivers to know what’s going on in the field and stay in touch with all the science.

ALISON : Right. Do you feel there’s, um do you feel hope? I got hope from your book, but do you do you feel like because you’re faced a lot with this and just your life, do you feel hope?

KATHY : Yes, I do. You know, it’s funny, um, I always say that when people call me, when patients call me, they call me and either they were just diagnosed and they’re scared, or they run out of options and they’re scared. If people are doing well, they’re not calling me. So my job really is to, you know, first of all, make sure I can calm them down and then take the steps that you see in the book to try to help find them. You know, what is the next action that they can take. I find that by putting things into simple steps for patients and saying, okay, I know you’ve read all this and you’ve been to every site and it’s a little overwhelming. Here are the three things you need to do. And I just think by keeping things very simple and telling people where to keep moving forward, that’s where the hope comes from, that they’re starting to move through the process, and they feel a little more confident. They’re willing to ask their doctor more questions. They’re willing to say that the drug has side effects, whatever it might be. And so I think that confidence builds hope. And then the second part is there’s a huge reason for hope that is based off the science.

KATHY : So when I was diagnosed, you know, that was back in 1996. And, um, you know, science moved so slowly, so slowly. And in today’s world, you know, things, you know, back then it was $1 billion and ten years to get a drug to market. And in today’s world, it’s happening so much faster. You’ve got gene therapy, immunotherapy, genomics. There’s just so many ways you can go. And now even with AI, drug development will start happening much faster. Imaging will get much better. So when I say there’s reason for hope, the the hope is coming from the amazing scientists, pharmaceutical companies, everybody out there working on it. My biggest fear and why I wrote the book was now you have a lot more to miss out on. You know, if you’re not on your game, you’re going to miss a clinical trial that might extend your life, that could extend your life until the next drug comes out for you. And I just felt that that game of FOMO in, you know, treating cancer is a dangerous game. And I wanted patients and their caregivers to know you can beat the system. You just have to know the steps to do it.

JEAN : Can you give our listeners three really great tips what to do upon a diagnosis? Because you say that (in your book) and, but you’re they’re wonderful. And I wish I had known those.

KATHY : And I know, I would say the three tips, like when you read the book, you’ll know that it’s divided into three parts. So the first part is you’ve just been diagnosed. The second part is you are in the thick of treatment, and the third part is you’ve finished your treatment and now your so-called survivor. So in the first part, when you’re diagnosed, what I recommend to everybody, number one, is to Google wisely. And that means you don’t have to go everywhere. There are very good sites in oncology, the American Cancer Society, Cancer.org, um, the National Cancer Institute, Cancer.gov. So you can go to the cancer sites and they actually are highly credible and highly reliable. The second piece is then you have to identify within your cancer. Is there a foundation, a disease group specifically focused on that cancer? You would be amazed, i mean, here we are decades later in the field of multiple myeloma, you would think that every myeloma patient has signed up at the MMRF to get our newsletter, our updates on clinical trials, whatever. It doesn’t matter whether it’s the MMRF or Pancan or Lustgarten or any of these organizations, we don’t have nearly the percentage, high percentage of patients that you think we would. And part of that, because they don’t know we’re out here.

ALISON : Yeah.

KATHY : And that’s what’s really scary. Like a lot of patients don’t know that there are disease groups specifically focused in their disease. So I always say make sure you find a reliable disease foundation that can then concierge you much better to that specific cancer. And often like at the MMRF we have full time patient navigators. I mean they came out of the best hospitals and they will walk you through from the moment of diagnosis all the way through trials, everything you need. And they’re amazing nurses and, you know, they’re they could be utilized even more than they are right now. So that’s go to the cancer sites. They’re really good. Go to the disease groups and register. Give them your email. Otherwise you won’t get the information. The other is get a second opinion. You have to get a second opinion. And the third is know your insurance. Like you would think. Someone like me, who has lived in this field and breathed the medical field for all of my life, that I would have this right. And one of the reasons I wrote the book was to share with you. Like I had everything going for me. Everything, the right husband, the right kids, the right friends, the right insurance, the right job and i still messed it up. I still messed it up and in areas where I often messed it up was insurance, um, paying out of pocket.

KATHY : Um, going to my breast cancer doctor, going to…. I thought my surgeon was, um, in house. You know, you get hit with huge surgical bills. And I’m thinking to myself, if I’m not tracking this. Yeah, I always say, everybody know your insurance and make sure you call them. It’s not enough to just think that you’re covered. Make sure you talk to them and say, where should I go? Is this covered? And then fight for what you want? Which leads me into the second part of the book, which is the treatment. When you’re trying to get the test done, whether it’s genomic testing, biomarker testing, anything, you often have to keep asking for it. So like in multiple myeloma, we often have to ask for Pet scans. The insurance companies don’t always love it, but they’re really good at helping us to know when and when to get treatment and how we’re doing. And then when you get into the stage where you’re actually looking at the treatment side, that’s where we really say, you’ve got to make sure you’re building that team around you. Your medical team has to be amazing, and your personal caregiving team has to be equally as strong, because now you’re in the thick of it. You know, you need somebody to help with your kids, your parents, everybody there.

KATHY : Um, so we always say that that part is the most important part when you’re in the treatment side. And then when you get to survivorship, kind of what I say to people there is um, I know we all ring the bell when we finish chemo and we high five after. But it’s not like that. You take these really tough toxic treatments and they’re hard. Or you do a really tough surgery and people are like, okay, you got through that now you should be smiling and everything should be great. And I’m going to head back to work and we’re going to go do this. And you’re sitting there going, I have not healed. I’m sad. What’s wrong with me? And it’s very prevalent time of, um, depression. So it’s important that people know that. And then then you have to also be tracked. You don’t know how deep your remission is. So you need them to do more testing to tell you so that, you know, if you need more chemotherapy, anything to go along with the surgery you just had. So the journey doesn’t end. It’s just a cycle. It’s a cycle. And and patients still live in fear of relapse. It doesn’t matter how many times you get a good test result, you’re still scared every time you go to Sloan-Kettering or Dana-Farber or wherever.

ALISON : Yeah. Do you um, I thought it was very interesting about the clinical trials. You say at one point, know the point of the trial.

KATHY : Yes.

ALISON : I had never even thought about because some you’re like some are trying to see side effects. It’s not all just like about curing the type of cancer you have.

KATHY : So I think, you responded, you actually both were talking about this. This is really, really important. So when all of a sudden someone gets diagnosed, then everybody kind of comes in and tells them every story about where they got treated for their cancer. And here’s the best doctor for you. You start listening. But the truth is, cancer centers are all really good at specific cancers. It just depends on how their departments are built. Like, you know, we may have great hospitals in New York that focus on myeloma, but they may not be just as strong in pancreatic or glioblastoma. So you have to know which center to go to. First of all, that’s really important. And then the second part is you have to know who’s doing the best clinical trials. So that depends on who has a great clinical background at that academic center. And if they have a great background, then the pharma companies are coming to them with amazing clinical trials. But then as a patient, you have to understand a phase one trial means they’re still trying to find the dose. So like when you were saying all these clinical trials were coming his way, like you’re saying to yourself, well, how do I know which one to put them on? The truth is, you know, you have to look at the inclusion criteria.

KATHY : Can he even get in? Right. And this is this is hard stuff to read. You’re supposed to go to Cancer.gov and start reading this yourself. It’s this is why we have navigators, you know, at the walk you through. So you have to know the inclusion criteria. You have to know if it’s phase one, phase two or phase three. At least you know when you’re getting out to phase two, they know the dose. And at phase three, you know, now you really are in a very strong clinical trial. At that point, you’re really trying to understand the efficacy of the drug versus the standard of care. So you want later stage trials. You want trials that are near you. You don’t want to have to go crazy getting to them. Um, and you want to make sure that that drug looks highly effective and it’s hard to know.

JEAN : Yeah, yeah. For sure. And the other thing is, I think most people I mean, I would, I would assume that my doctor knew how to do all this. And like you say in your book, these, these brilliant doctors have like 13, 16 minutes to really be with you. Yeah. So you really have to become your own advocate. And, um, just the language alone in the medical industry is so overwhelming. And that part for me was, was very challenging and I remember clearly feeling like a deer in headlights, like what, where do we begin? And, um and everyone’s personality is so different.

KATHY : It’s all so complex, you know, and they use all the acronyms, and it’s really hard…

JEAN : Oh, that’s right..the Acronyms!

KATHY : It’s just so hard to stay on top of it. And so you have to understand who you trust to kind of help you sort through all this information that’s coming your way. And you hope it’s your doctor. But you are right. The doctors have limited time to focus on what the patient’s. The good thing about going to an academic cancer center is that they tend to specialize in certain cancers. So if you’re seeing somebody there that’s a hematologist oncologist, odds are they’re just strictly focused on myeloma or leukemia or lymphoma. And I think what happens a little bit more as you move out, you know, to the community centers, which are, again, still great doctors and 70% of cancer care is done at the community, not at the academic centers. Um, those community doctors have to know lots of cancers. So every cancer is making progress. And if you think that it’s up to your oncologist to stay on top of your type of cancer and then your specific subtype of cancer, like, there’s just no way. So it really is on you these days to stay on top of it for sure. Absolutely.

ALISON : Do you think, um, it’s important to get genetic testing or do you think it’s like I’m going to be transparent, because you were, I’m a worrier… So I’m afraid that if I get genetic testing, uh, I’ll be like, oh, oh, like, oh my gosh, can you give me some advice about that? Because my other friends going through it too.

KATHY : So, well, first of all, just remember there’s two types of genetic testing. One type of genetic testing is to understand what genes run in your family. So in a situation like that, if there’s risk in your family, for example, a BRCA gene and breast cancer, um, you definitely would want to know that. So I always say to everybody, you have to know the history in your family. You have to. And that way you’re able to tell your doctors that it runs in your family, and they can then make sure you’re being screened appropriately. The second type of testing, just so the listeners know, is that when you actually have cancer and you have a specific tumor type, they will do testing on that to identify what kind of genes are turned on and off in your specific tumor, and that will help them to decide treatment.. In your specific situation where you’re trying to say, I’d like to know if I’m prone to cancer, um, but I’m going to worry about it a lot. I would say to you, I would focus more on your family history right now and make sure you’re very aware of any, any risks at all that are going on in your family. And then secondly, I would just say there are so many ways to continue to prevent cancer that I would focus on them. I mean, it’s not complicated. I mean, you know, minimal alcohol, eat healthy, exercise, don’t gain weight. I mean, these are not crazy things that the world is asking us to do. And then I would say the third thing is there are tests that are just starting to be developed.

KATHY : They’re not covered necessarily by insurance quite yet. Um, but they’re getting better and better and better. And over the next number of years, I actually think this is one of the places that’s really going to expand in cancer care. I feel like, you know, my kids are in their late 20s now, and I kind of ended the book, you know, in a full cycle with them where they now know cancer runs in our family like crazy. So, you know, I said to them, you need to see a great primary care internist that’s on it. And they do. And I just say to them, you have to watch for every single sign. And if and along the way, your internist feels that there should be testing done earlier, do it. But, um, you will find there’s going to be some amazing new blood tests that come out that will literally tell, you know, the next generation, whether they have any kind of early cancer cells going on. It’s a vast and growing area. I wouldn’t say it’s there quite yet. They don’t have all the genes that they’re following. There’s still a lot of false positives. So then I worry about people like you that might worry more. Um, you know, so but I would say know your risk be really healthy. And three, keep an eye on these new diagnostic tests that are going to help us to identify what’s happening in our bodies.

ALISON : Thank you.

JEAN : There’s so much information out there, Kathy, you know, it’s like going to a huge shopping mall. You don’t even know where do I begin? And um, so another thing I love in your book is that you talk about the caregiver, which is so important and it’s essentially vital to the healing of the patient. Um, your family

ALISON :  You’re eight friends, i would love to meet them..

KATHY : It’s really funny, though. Think about it, um, the way that developed was my talking with a counselor, and again, I was headed to the second part of the book. It was Go time. I was working full time, two little ones, and now I’m headed to the stem cell transplant. I’m going to be in isolation for weeks on end. My sister’s my donor. She has three little ones at home. Like, how are we going to pull all this off? My husband has work, too. And so I went the counselor saying to me, they’re just going to be some things like your husband’s a great caregiver, but there’s just going to be some things that you, you want to share with your friends, like you need help. So just call them like, yeah, just call them. So I did, and it was funny because we all worked. But we ended up doing this lunch. And so we just stayed together through the whole thing. And like some of them were just again, when I in the book, I talk a lot about on caregiving, you always need to write down what your needs are. Your needs are the immediate, like, oh my God, who’s taking care of the kids? Who’s cleaning the house? Who’s walking the dog? Like the immediate stuff that you think, I don’t know who’s going to do this anymore? And then there are the wants. Do I want to stay working? Do I want to see a wedding? Do I want to travel the world? Like, what do I want to do? And I always say, line your caregivers up so that they’re doing what they want to do and what they’re really good at. So of my eight, there are some that are amazing cooks, like just incredible.

KATHY : I mean, they just fed our family while we were gone. And then there are others that just love to drive. And they, you know, they had time to do it. And then there were others, and I always say this to everybody like, don’t ever ask me to cook for you. You will be very disappointed. But if you say to me, Kathy, give me, give me two hours and go research everything you can find on my specific cancer. Now you’re giving me a job that I like, that I can do for you and hand it back over to you. And it just got done. I think that patients forget, um, it’s their job to delegate out to those that care about them. And it’s a gift. Like, of the eight, I think three of us have now had cancer. So, you know, I tend even though they were helping me, I turned my bag of scarves back over to them, gave them all the blankets like everything goes around, comes around. And then we’ve been together on anything that comes up. It could be sick parents, dying parents, you know, how do we handle all these things? And we’ve just all stayed together, which is it’s an amazing gift. We all talk about the importance of these relationships, but, um, I put effort into it. And I think it’s important in the book to also note that it doesn’t need to be eight. It can be one, right? You don’t need to have eight. You know, like I was really fortunate to have that. If you have one, that’s all that that’s perfectly fine. Just work with them as best you can.

ALISON : Right.. That’s what I loved, I loved that and can I just ask you about you for a minute? Like, you know, when you were saying that when a patient gets, you know, that fear, so what do you what did you do with that? Like do you meditate? Do you? I know you were journaling for your daughter. Has she ever read the journals?

KATHY : It’s so funny. I just got this question. Um, my kids laugh and say we can’t read your writing. Number one. Um, I think they said if you their response is, if you want us to read them, we’ll read them. But for right now, they really don’t have any interest in reading them. I think, you know, my mom recently passed away, and it was at that moment that, um, my sister and I were going through all of her things, and I just remember sitting on the floor and just reading and reading every card, everything she’d ever saved. And I can just kind of think that’s probably at the point at which my kids will do it. It’ll be funny because they’ll be doing it when I’m not here. Right. Um, but you know, they kind of view the book to be the cliff notes, so…

ALISON : Exactly. That’s right.

KATHY : So they can they can cheat and read that. haha

ALISON : Exactly. This is what you read before the test. haha

KATHY : But in terms of like the, um, the gut wrenching feeling and by the way, it doesn’t have to be the patient, it can also be the caregiver. Yeah. I mean,  when somebody calls me, like even my twin sister and, um, at one point, I remember she had elevated liver enzymes, and she had me completely convinced that she had metastatic breast cancer. And I, I mean,I couldn’t eat, I couldn’t do anything just for a period of time, but, you know, we are amazing human beings and somehow we find this way to compartmentalize. I can’t tell you how many times living with myeloma for so long and running the Myeloma Research Foundation, I would get horrible test results. And then I’d have a huge event where I had to speak in front of hundreds and hundreds of people. And I remember calling my friends one of the eight and just saying, I can’t do this, like I can’t do this… And they would literally walk me through it and help me get back on my path. And, you know, everybody says, go for a walk, go for a run, go do a yoga class. And I do. And I always say, people say, well, what else do you do? And I always say, I’m completely neurotic about my sleep. Neurotic. I’m just like, just please give me give me those eight hours. I’ll take it. And your immune system builds while you’re sleeping, so it’s really important to do it. I eat healthy, but I still also go for a walk, usually out in a park or somewhere in nature, um, every morning. And just try to keep your head in the game. And I think those things are, are critical.

ALISON : Because I’m amazed that what everything that you’ve done and went through, I was like, oh, man, you know, we were recording your intro this morning and I said, how do you even have time for a shower? Like, you’re amazing.

JEAN :  Just being a mom… and being an executive and yeah, you are amazing. And  I’m a little curious, Kathy, do you have any religious background or spiritual background that you..

KATHY : This is so interesting. Um, when my husband and I got married, he’s  was Catholic. And, you know, this happened, you know, just a few years after we got married. So it’s almost like he didn’t know any other life with me except cancer. And think about it, he’s been living with it now, with me for decades and decades. And I think, you know, there were points in time and you could sense this when you’re reading the book where I, you know, I think he’s like fed up, like, oh my God, how many like, now another doctor’s visit or during my breast cancer journey, like it was supposed to be double mastectomy. And then I would move out and be done. But it went I had these terrible infections. It went on and on and on, and I could just see it in his eyes, like, how long are we going to do this? And so, that’s why I always say to everybody, um, just be aware that your caregivers are giving so much. We forget to say thank you. We forget to really like sometimes we almost take advantage. Like, he was always great about driving me to every doctor’s appointment. I could have driven myself like it would have been fine.

KATHY : Um. And he probably would have been happy going to work. But I was like, he offered. And I said, sure. And I think, I think over time, what happens is, if it happens for a long time, resentment builds and you really want to avoid that. When you’re a cancer patient and your caregiver is often the person you love the most, you don’t want resentment building. You want to be able to talk about it and handle things like that. So going back over to the religion, um, he really did, when we were in Chicago and I had first gotten diagnosed, we were very close with our Catholic Church out there, and he was super close with the priest, and the priest was this amazing, amazing man. And it was a small church that felt so community like. And so, they really got us through, like, um, you know, I ended up getting pregnant. I ended up having David and we ended up saying, okay, we’re going to move back east to be near Paul’s parents and my sister. And that whole story is in the book. But, you know, it was Mother’s Day and the the entire church, he had us come forward in the entire church, blessed us before we left.

KATHY : He was just, like everybody was there for you. And I can’t even describe it, like I write about it in the book. Like we went and lit the candles and just working him we haven’t found. Um, I hate to say this. We haven’t found anybody like him since that time, and it was a special time for us. And as a result, we ended up..this is terrible to say, but we came back to this area on the East coast, um, came to a church, and there was embezzlement going on. And we ran into some problems and we went off the rails. And I do wish we could find our way back. I do, um, because I think it helped us tremendously early on, and I think it would still be helpful today.  And I think everything is always about finding special people that you can relate to, whether it’s your friend, your doctor, a certain nurse, a priest, you know, a counselor, there’s just people along the way that you, I don’t know, you just work with, and you love them and they help you and you have to see that and catch on to it and make it work for you.

ALISON : I’m so impressed by your um you know, accessibility and your vulnerability in this. And yet you say you’re a private person.

KATHY : I know I think people are really shocked the ones knowing me um, that I put that much into it. But I felt like once I was going through the journals themselves, I didn’t expect to do it, but I could just see that I had made mistakes. And I feel like here I am, you know, 66 years old, and I and I’m just realizing this now, like, I laugh about it. And you can see toward the end of the book I’m writing, how many times did I Google cancer, myeloma, whatever it may be. And I never once googled relationships? How to have a good relationship. And so,  while I was writing the book, I was literally saying to myself, you know, Kathy, you are kind of a jerk, you know? And so I really did spend I’m a curious soul. So I kind of switched while I was writing the book and, and I would still go on my walks and nature and everything. But now I was listening to, you know, Gottman and Brene Brown and people that were more like in those areas. And I was learning so much and I thought, oh, this is how I’m supposed to be. Um, and I think it really did teach me a lot. And I felt like, I don’t want people to wait till they’re 66 to figure some of this out. I hope that if people get diagnosed earlier, or even if you’re a child caregiver to an elderly parent or whomever, that you have to realize, you have a voice and it’s up to you to speak up. And don’t let resentment feel like all these little lessons in there. I didn’t want people to learn them too late in life, like like I did. Um, I felt like I could have picked up on those much sooner.

JEAN : But, you know, Kathy, I don’t be hard on yourself. I think the universe chooses certain people to  deliver, communicate information, and clearly this spoke to your strengths. And at the same time, we’re all having experiences in our life. And bottom line is, we’re learning how to just love more. Yeah, love more unconditionally and for ourselves too.

KATHY : You definitely do that in the book.

JEAN : You hit this out of the park.

ALISON : You are really amazing and you’re just…

JEAN : So lovely

ALISON : lovely and normal and great. So Thank you so much for talking to us. I, I’m giving this book to my friend who’s now going through lung cancer and and you and you’ve given me so much hope. And thank you very, very much. You’re touching so many people.

KATHY : Thank you. And thank.

JEAN : You and your family are truly amazing and your Eight.

ALISON : That’s right… Love to all of them.

KATHY : Thank you thank you. It was really nice talking with both of you.

ALISON : Have a beautiful day.

JEAN : All the best okay.

ALISON : Bye.

JEAN : Wow.

JEAN : She is just, uh, so full of information and on both the intellectual side and the wisdom heart side.

ALISON : I, I was so, um, I thought from reading the book, like, she would seem so intense, and yet she’s so warm and lovely and open, and, you know, I just really enjoyed speaking with her.

JEAN : Me too. And I just want to read here three things that her, um, her takeaway at the end, she says, say thank you. Don’t ever take kindness for granted. Number two, speak up. Don’t ever let resentment build. And number three apologize. It’s never too late. So her journey has taught her some very deep soul wisdom that that we forget sometimes. But a cancer diagnosis, um, really has a way of transforming our perceptions to what’s very important in life.

ALISON : And that, you know, I’m always taken aback reading all these books and talking to all these people. Doesn’t it always come down to love ?

JEAN : It does.

ALISON : Like, you know, when you see, goodness, you’re actually seeing love.. Like, um, you know, love for yourself, advocating for yourself, love for your caregiver… You know, we talk to all these people… Lasagna Love, You Matter, Humankind…it’s all about love

JEAN : Yeah. It is. Um, so that’s great to know and to just check in with yourself, you know? Am I losing track of love and what’s truly important in life?  What’s your North star?

ALISON : What’s your North star? That’s great. I love that.

JEAN : I got that from Kathy, by the way.

ALISON : We can’t we don’t have an original thought, us, you and me.

JEAN : I think she says that when she’s sitting in Starbucks and she decides what’s really important in life, like, write it down and let that be your North Star.

ALISON : That’s great. That’s beautiful. Well, we hope that you enjoyed this as much as we did. It’s really it’s a wonderful book. Fatal to Rearless – 12 Steps to Beating Cancer in a Broken Medical System. I just loved it. Thank you so much, Kathy.

JEAN : Yes, Kathy, we send you our kindest thoughts.

ALISON : That’s right. Have a beautiful day.

JEAN : Bye.

ALISON: It’s playing under just about now, and then it fades out. You know, the show today is going to be a very exciting interview, don’t you think?

JEAN: Absolutely. We are interviewing, um, Michael Clarke.

ALISON: You did that? Well, I, I could not have done that.

JEAN: He’s got a great accent.

ALISON: He does, he does. And the name of his book is Dream Guidance – connecting to the soul through Dream Incubation.

JEAN: Right. And isn’t that a fascinating title? Yeah, I think it’s very, um, catching…I, Jean, don’t think I remember my dreams. And I never really gave dreaming a lot of my thought or conscious attention that it could hold answers to my desires or questions or or healing. And now, from reading his book, I’m, i’m 180 degrees turned around, around about my dreams.

ALISON: He has a definite process to help people get in touch with their dreams, remember their dreams, and how to sort of evaluate their dreams. Which I thought was really interesting because I know I do have dreams, but they just seem like a cluster of craziness.

JEAN: You know, same, same here in my dreams, I feel are just airy, abstract activity that really don’t give me any insight. And, I am so wrong. Yeah.

ALISON: And that he says, you know that if you really pose a question and the way he has, he has guidelines to help you figure out how to pose that question. Right. You can get true insight from your dreams, which I love. I love that idea. It’s exciting to me.

JEAN: So anyway, we hope you love this interview and, uh, you’ll you’ll get a lot from it. It’ll be a great resource.

ALISON: But don’t fall asleep during the interview and dream.  stay awake.

JEAN: Hi Machiel, so great to meet you, I’m Jean

ALISON: and.. I’m Allison.

MACHIEL: hi, Allison.

ALISON: We’re already talking about dreams while we’re. We’re waiting for you.

MACHIEL: Excellent. I, I’m curious to to to to learn what, uh, what was, uh, bubbling up for you.

JEAN: All right. Well, for me, I don’t consider my dreams of any importance. And I thought to myself, wow, we’re going to get to interview this author and this will be a whole new awakening for me about my dreams. And it truly has. And I am going to really give my dreams some some attention now because  if you were to ask me, I do not think that I remember that i have dreams, I’m sure, but I don’t remember them, and I don’t even try to remember them. I usually go, that was crazy. That didn’t make sense. Thank God I’m awake now.

Speaker3: One of those.

ALISON: Right? Right.

MACHIEL: But I love this notion that you, uh, that you started with, oh, dreams. Uh, like many people, they discard dreams. They don’t think it’s important. Uh, we don’t live in a culture that, uh, values dreams. Like many indigenous cultures, people in the morning ask, what did you dream they would rely on, on dreams for, for their path through life? And, uh, of course, there are many ways that you can connect to the deep self, uh, intuition, yoga, meditation, just, uh, being a kind person. So it’s not that, uh, that dreams, uh, is necessary, but it can be such a valuable tool in, uh, in life if you know a little bit how to listen and be with them.

ALISON: Your, your, your process, I thought was really amazing about, um, how to ask the right question, how to do a little ritual. And the question thing was challenging for me because I kept thinking, no, that’s that’s not that’s not open ended. That’s not alive. That’s not, you know.

MACHIEL: Yes.

ALISON: Well go ahead.

JEAN: Yeah. Mikhail, I was curious if you could before we get into that, I just would love our, our listeners to just hear. What got you interested in dreams and thn. Yeah, that would be great.

MACHIEL: Yes-  like many things in life that have a deep impact. Uh, this it’s either, uh, pain or love. Mhm.. I was in deep pain, I had unresolved heartbreak of my father who died when I was ten, and our culture and family didn’t know how to grieve, and I didn’t even know how much unresolved grief I had until I started tending to it. I was stuck in my life in my early 20s. I didn’t know what to do. I started smoking way too much weed, uh, and sit on the couch,  which made me even more lethargic. And, um, so I was in a pit… And by chance, I stumbled upon the works of Carl Jung, who provided a way of thinking, and imagining the dream world as an expression of your own psyche. And so I got a kind of a psychological x-ray of what was going on inside of me. And there I learned a whole bunch of things from my shadow parts, things that were, uh, destructive, uh, characters showed up that brought me in a certain direction. So the dreams were a lifeline that I found, and I climbed out of the pit, and then I stayed connected to this lifeline because it had shown so much compassion and guidance to me that, uh, my life had turned around, that I’m eternally grateful to the world of dream and its inhabitants.

ALISON: And then how did you come up with your process then about the question in the ritual? Because it’s really beautiful.

MACHIEL: Yeah. And the questions is, uh, it can be helpful in general to, to learn to ask questions because questions deepen intimacy. Uh, we all ask ourselves throughout the day a lot of questions. And, uh, also they, uh, can often be refined instead of asking, why can’t they do this, then your own brain or psyche responds. Uh, and if you ask, how can I do this? You already get a different answer, right? Um, but I studied many dream, uh, techniques that started with Jung, but it branched out to, uh, many traditions around the world, and, uh, one thing I learned is that when you’re in the dream, you can become lucid. So in the dream that you know that you’re dreaming. And a lot of people have had it in some variation that you were there and was like, is this a dream? Or some people are like, oh my gosh, I’m in a dream. And then you can ask questions and you and you start learning that you live in a, in a responsive universe. Yeah. That you ask something and that the dream world shifts to, to help you. And, uh, I’m not that easily lucid. So I started experimenting with asking the dream questions before you go to bed in order to have a dream respond. And you can ask questions around love or creativity or health or anything that is is relevant to one’s life. And I noticed oh, this, this works too. And, uh, so, uh, I practiced and then I learned, oh, this this technique that’s done all over the world in all cultures. So, uh, nothing, nothing new there. But I first, for a year and a half, practiced on my own, then studied all these cultures. And then I desolated these five steps. How? How everyone could ask their dream question in order to trigger a helpful response.

ALISON: That’s great. Yeah.

ALISON: I think my favorite thing was, is, is your question alive? Yeah. Because even in life, um, it’s great to be truly curious and alive and present with the question. I think I just loved that statement.

MACHIEL: Yes.

MACHIEL: And also in, uh, even in conversation like this, the quality of the conversation is partly by are these questions really coming from a place of curiosity? Right. Uh, are they something you really want to know, or is it a bit obligatory? Uh, question. Right. And, uh, and that that makes a big difference. So yes.

ALISON: Yeah.

JEAN: And, and that I just think that bleeds into, into our life, you know, are we living life from the word you used? Obligatory. Or are we living it from a true soulful interaction? Asking questions. Being curious. Um, so I love that. And you know this sometimes the sad thing is that we’re so busy. Yeah, we don’t give that time. You know, we’re just checking off our to do list and getting to the next thing so fast, and, um, you know, so your, your book addresses so many wonderful aspects of, of life.

ALISON: What was interesting to me, too, is that there’s a lot of books about, you know, a dog means this, a snake means that. And and then you point out, you know, maybe not, you know, maybe not. If you’re, you know, this is. And, um, and I liked the dream that you had. I think you’re asking about, um, what do I eat to be healthy? And you were drinking on a beach? Uh, whiskey and coconut, right?

MACHIEL: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

ALISON: But I thought to myself, if I got that, I would have been like, well, there you go. Break out the whiskey. But you you were able to interpret it in such a great way and that that’s, is that like a talent that you have or can I get there too?

MACHIEL: Yeah. We can we can all get there. It’s it’s just somewhat of the familiarity with, uh, with dreaming and, uh, what you pointed out that a lot of books say dark means, uh,  whatever, you will be lucky. And, uh, there is some kind of, uh, maybe a general quality to a dark that in most cases it says something about an instinctual way. But then there are so many variations. Is this a dark that you had, uh, or is it the neighbor’s dog, or is the dog that did by you when you were young, or are you afraid for dogs? So it varies. Yeah. Dreams are really manifestations of your own psyche in a three dimensional environment. So in dreams and world that you find yourself in, it’s not a movie that you watch because actually in the dream, you’re, you’re in a, you’re acting in a world, um, very similar to this world. Right? And, uh, the only thing is that we take now this world for real, and then we go to bed and we sleep. And in the dream world, we take that world for real, right?

ALISON: Right.

MACHIEL: And then we wake up and we take this world for real. But actually, there are these multiple worlds coexisting. We can see that from our own experience. And in the dream, you can see how that world is is a creation of your own beliefs and expectations and intent. And so let’s say this was a dream, and now the door opens up and my previous boss comes in and he shakes his hand and my own critical voice would be presented in my dream as my previous boss, who comes in and shakes his head because I associate to my previous boss that he’s very critical. Um, someone else that might be their mom, or their neighbor, or their brother or partner or, uh, whoever is critical in their life. So if the dream book would say previous, uh, your boss, then it would be quickly say, oh, it may be an authority figure. Um, but it is it’s much, uh, much more nuanced. You get further by asking, what do I associate to this character, right? Oh, this is neighbor John. And neighbor John, uh, is very jealous.  Oh, jealousy shows up as neighbor John and acts out something in my dream. And then we can learn about what? What a little bit about your own jealousy. That attribute in the dream to neighbor John, the jealousy is present. And then you can see how do I relate to jealousy or how do I relate to criticalness? And then I can shift, uh, and those dynamics play out in this reality as well. So it can just starting to think about how do I relate to Criticalness. Right. And if I then imagine our criticalness or I always get scared or I fight it, right, what other ways can I can I develop to, uh, to befriend or to understand this? And then in this reality, things also change because of course we dream work is partly just to enrich your life and you want to also live. This reality more fully, and the dream world can really help you understand what goes on inside yourself in a way that’s very hard to get to just by thinking about a situation.

ALISON: Hmm. Right, right. That’s interesting.

JEAN: Very interesting. Right. Okay. Well, can you share with our viewer.. Listeners the five steps?

MACHIEL: Yes.

JEAN: Give an example after each. That would be great. Yeah.

MACHIEL: I, uh, I happen to live in Mexico City these days.

ALISON: Oh.

MACHIEL: And, uh, recently, I, uh, met a woman who was, uh, laid off from her job, and she took some time off, uh, came, uh, came here and I asked her, what what are you going to do?

JEAN: Mhm.

MACHIEL: She said, I don’t know yet. I said, well you could uh, consult your dream, because the dream is interested in helping and educating. So um, and she was like, oh that sounds good. And she said, what can I ask. I said, first of all, what do you want to know? And that is really step one. What is what is alive in you? What do you want to know? And in her way, in her life, what is alive is- what shall be my next step, or what company, or what shall I do? And for other people. I said, how can I find a loved one? Or what if you’ve been working on your health? A question around the diet and then step two is, phrase a good question? Yeah, that is one question at a time, not how do I become rich and find the love of my life.. That is too complicated and too much. So she said, uh, well, actually, I want to know where I will apply for a job?  And the dream will very seldom say, uh, write to Walmart.

MACHIEL: hahah– and that’s your job.

MACHIEL: So. So that’s important to know about about also asking these questions. The same in love. It’s it’s not asking where where do I find my loved one? But far more, what can I do in myself to cross paths with the beloved or open up or work on my own, uh, fears? So, uh, the woman, decided to keep it a bit open and said, what is my next step? Then she did a little step three, is do a little ritual, and the ritual is, uh, anything you do with a heartfelt intention, right?  Light a candle. Sing a song, do a dance. Make a drawing….so she made a little drawing.

JEAN: And why do you think that’s important? To do a ritual?

MACHIEL: Well, I’ve studied all these traditions, uh, around the world that do this, too, whether it’s in African shamanism or in Islam or the Dalai Lama talked about it recently, he just suggested to put some form of grass under your pillow.

ALISON: Wow.

MACHIEL: And so you see all these cultures, they say do a ritual. But these rituals are all different, so it cannot be the grass or the glass of water or the candle. But it is more the dynamic in the ritual that you do something with a heartfelt intention showing to the other side, let’s say to your soul or to the Divine or spirit guide. Or if you want to believe your brain, it doesn’t matter so much it shows that you’re interested… and it’s relational.

ALISON: Mhm mhm.

MACHIEL: And  like Jung said, it’s like there’s an old 2 million year old man or woman living inside of your psyche. And you can connect with this old wisdom within. And ritual seems to be the way to do that. And and almost any indigenous culture also prescribes ritual for healing.

ALISON: Right.

MACHIEL: And not to get too far off. But probably the placebo works because it’s a ritual.

ALISON: Mhm.

MACHIEL: And so placebos work, but not because you eat uh, a sugar pill, but because the person with the white coat gave you something and says, uh, take this, you will be be better, right? It’s actually a kind of a ritual in itself.. And so a ritual is, is you you pump up your expectation, your intent, your belief, your desire and if that is strong, the the other side, the response. If it’s not so strong, then you probably also don’t have a question that is alive. Because if I want to know something, it’s a strong intent, desire and intent if I’m going to ask, where did, uh, the doormen go during lunch?  my dream is going to think …..

ALISON: Hahahahah

JEAN: Because curious minds want to know..where he got his hamberger from?

MACHIEL: Yeah, the old wise woman within probably then thinks, well Machiel, maybe focus a little bit on your own life? hahah

JEAN: Like, stay in your own lane.

ALISON: Don’t worry about the doorman.

MACHIEL: Right, right, right.

MACHIEL: So you do a ritual in step three. So this woman did a ritual. Then step four, is sleep dream and write it down. Because dreams uh, if you don’t write them down, most of them evaporate. And  if you want to spark dream recall, just start writing down even a feeling and you will have two, three, four dreams a week.

ALISON: Right.

MACHIEL: So she wrote down the dream and then step five is work on it. And in her case, uh, she had the following dream. She said, in the dream, I’m in a shoe store and I’m trying to fit several shoes, and then someone comes to me with a pair of shoes, uh, and suggests that I put them on. I look at them, and i’m not convinced, but I do it anyway. And then they fit like a glove.

ALISON: Mm.

MACHIEL: That’s the dream. And, uh, step five. She worked on it, and she pretty quickly came to– oh, it feels like I need to be open to the possibilities that come on my path. And also possibilities that might not feel or look like a perfect fit. I should try it and then, uh, I might actually find the perfect fit. Where i don’t expect that.

ALISON: That’s kind of amazing, I love that.

JEAN: Did she come up with that interpretation or did you help her with that?

MACHIEL: No, no… She told me.

JEAN: Yeah.

MACHIEL: And uh, and this was a woman who normally a little bit like you, Jean, who wasn’t overly interested, uh, intrigued by dreams. But uh, after this conversation, thought, because I sleep and dream tonight, anyway, let me try it.

ALISON: I wanted to know, do you think, um, I have like two things I have to ask you. The first one is, do you think that your subconscious, even if you don’t ask a question, your dream state is always answering something in your subconscious anyway? Do you think that without the questions, dreams represents something that you need to know? Do you understand what I’m asking?

MACHIEL: I think, I think so, and, um, I don’t I don’t think that all dreams do that, but if we, if we’ve been working on on something long enough, the dreams seem to come spontaneously adding to it. It’s like it’s, uh, the great creative weaver that weaves together with us the tapestry of our life.

ALISON: Oh that’s interesting.

MACHIEL: And many people have had spontaneous, helpful dreams like, Paul McCartney had the dream of,  “Yesterday” ,  Stephen King as many of his plots from dreams, probably nightmares. hahah

ALISON: Exactly.

MACHIEL: And the largest oil field in Kuwait was found because someone had the dream on where to drill. So, uh, they come spontaneously.

ALISON: Mhm.

MACHIEL: But if we turn towards the dream and ask for help, uh, we get more help. But it is almost like we need to give an informed consent, as if there is some form of free will that, uh, that says, if you want to figure it out on your own is fine if you want to have help. Equally fine, both elements, the dream seems to be totally okay with. But as life is, uh, pretty complex by times, yeah, it’s nice that there is some creative force that can can add in a, in a helpful way. So I don’t think all dreams do that, but a lot of dreams will pick up on the themes of our lives.

JEAN: Mhm.

MACHIEL: And sometimes dreams anticipate tomorrow. So dreams are not only in response to yesterday but  are anticipating tomorrow. It’s like a flower that comes out, comes first out in the dream and then in this reality.

ALISON: Right.

MACHIEL:  it embodies this way into into the world.

ALISON: Right.

ALISON: That’s beautiful.

JEAN: Yeah, it is beautiful.

ALISON: Do I get to ask my second question right away? Okay. Um, my second one is,  have you ever connected with somebody in a dream? ( audio unclear – (in your book) It seems like you talk a lot about.. You even say, if you’re dating me, you’re talking about dreams.- audio unclear)  Have you ever had a dream and said to someone, okay, tonight, let’s try to dream together? Or has anything like that ever happened for you?

MACHIEL: I have tried this, but I’ve not been very successful with it. But I know people who, uh, who have the ability to be relatively easy, lucid in their dreams so that they know they’re in their dream. And I know from a man who, uh, had this experiment with someone else and that they said, uh, I’m going to show you a sign tonight in the dream. So he showed, uh, I think he did this. Then the other person, uh, would have to say, what is the sign? And they had a third person there to make sure that person “A” would tell person “B” the sign, and then person “B” would come and say, I saw this sign. And so they met up. He did the sign. Uh, he was lucid. The other person wasn’t, but he remembered it.

ALISON: Wow.

MACHIEL: And so it seems to be that we in that we that we enter and what Jung would call the collective unconscious territory where you can meet other living people and or even deceased loved ones. We can, uh, we we encounter once in a while in a dream.

ALISON: That’s that is so amazing to me.

JEAN: It really is. And after reading your book, I feel like the realm of dreams has this grand, this infinite intelligence.  and I’ve been schooled in prayer and in Science of Mind, which is affirmative prayer and using, you know, your mind and this whole other dimension, Machiel from dreams, it’s like such a huge missing piece that I never even  entertained. Um. So I love that. I wanted to ask you, I have a friend that has recurring dreams. What is that?

MACHIEL: Yeah. So those are important dreams. Recurring dreams is a shows that, uh, that the person hasn’t picked up or worked through the issue that the dream presents. Mhm. So sometimes a recurring dream can be a recurring nightmare, monster is chasing us and we keep running away. And then we feel that something, something we feel chased by something in life. And our response is running. And until we turn around and face it and figure out a better way, uh, this this dream will keep on going. Or a recurring, but a little bit less recurring is, well, I have a recurring dream that I’m locked up in jail, and, uh, it’s horrible, but it’s always in a time that I feel stuck.

JEAN: Yeah. Mhm.

MACHIEL: Uh, and so my stuckness translates to a dream that I’m in jail. And depending on how long I’m in jail usually is an amount of how stuck I feel. Mhm.

ALISON: And I think it’s, because you’re following that Dorman….I think you gotta let him go. hahah

MACHIEL: Or maybe he has the key? hahah

ALISON: That’s right, that’s right.

ALISON: That’s interesting. So you’re able to kind of see that and then figure out on your own life where that really pertains, right?

MACHIEL: Yeah….Well but everyone can and and and sure, I have, uh, paid so much attention that you get a feel for it, but if, uh, instead of asking the classic question, what does this mean? Ask the question, what is what is the experience or what are your feelings?  When you are running through the school, uh, the university to your classroom for the exam and you can’t find it and you start running even faster, and you think I didn’t even prepare for this? What is the what is the feeling? Yeah. Oh, I’m really anxious. I feel being tested, I feel unprepared. Oh, interesting. Is that something that you are at that moment also experienced somewhere in your life?

JEAN: Mhm.

MACHIEL: And it’s almost always the case. It’s almost always even if you didn’t know it, it you reflect on it. Oh yeah I have  this project and I feel tested, I feel I need to deliver. And then you can recognize those feelings in day to day life and start finding different ways of, of relating to it. But so, for the listeners and easy way, uh, what is the experience.

ALISON: Right.

MACHIEL: And then look at what, what your response is in the dream to that experience. I see a crocodile and I get really angry and I kick it. All right, so is that your experience from when you get scared?  And then you can figure out what you want to do with that..

ALISON: Right, right, well…That’s that’s not what I would do, but I totally get there. But that’s interesting because you can have, um, you I think you even talk about it in the book that, the contex, i could do a I could describe something that seems very neutral right now, and yet I may have a lot of emotion on that and that emotion is also very important, like what is the context? And that I think that is such a good tip just in life, like because people will text me and it could be complete miscommunications because it’s more about what is the experience, what is the feeling. So I thought that was very profound. Can I ask maybe this is probably a stupid question. What do you think a dream is? Like aside from being a guidance, are we tapping into in our own head? Are we tapping into like, what is it?

MACHIEL: I think it’s a brilliant question.  Really because it brings, uh, the sense of need, what is a dream? And if you take a dream, uh, whether it’s a nightmare from when you were young or a recent dream, you remember. And for everyone that listens, they can watch us, can go along. But you will notice is that, uh, you are in a dream. So you’re in a world, And in this world, you’re interacting… And Actually, you’re awake in this world– you’re seeing the doorman, you think of course, what did you eat? (HAHAH) – And you go over, you ask, and, uh. But that’s really a curious thing, that your mind is actually awake while you’re asleep. Your body is asleep, your mind is awake.  Your psyche generated a world around it in which you interact actually with this big part, with the substance of your own psyche. Criticalness, uh, whatever. So the question, what is a dream?… And that  brings you quickly to, what the dream is not? A dream is not a message from mystery source X to you, like a lot of traditions say, oh, it’s the message from the divine to you, and you need to translate that message. That is, that is in a letter metaphor, as if it’s a movie. But it’s not..  It seems that that awareness, the deeper awareness generates this world in which you find yourself, in which you live through psychological topics in your life, and you anticipate a certain delivery of your creative talent for tomorrow. So if you’re stuck in your life, you might meet a very upbeat, uh, cab driver who is an embodiment of consciousness of a beatness and getting, uh, getting going again. And if you can relate to that and befriend that state of consciousness and bring it into your day to day life, your habitual way of being changes.

ALISON: Wow.

MACHIEL: So but those are things you do as a as a result of the dream. The dreams are worlds we find ourselves in.  You interact, your mind is awake. And it appears that the dream doesn’t, uh, go away when we open up the eyes. It’s just a stream of consciousness that coexists.

ALISON: Oh.

MACHIEL: So you have waking consciousness, dreaming consciousness. If you daydream, it might come up, at night you might sink in this, and it appears that if you want to get in a flow state, that if you merge these two states that you have a sense of being in the flow.  And just like in dreams, the sense of time starts changing. So you do something and it feels, oh gosh, the hour flew by or ….. so, I don’t know where I wanted to go with that, but, uh…

ALISON: that’s good, it’s so interesting.

MACHIEL: But the question, what is a dream? Is really important because a lot of these techniques are what does the dream mean? But it’s not just that we could say ask about this reality. What does it mean? What does it mean that I talk to the two of you right now? That’s one way of interpreting this. It’s another how can I be with the two of you?. What? What does it feel like? I have a certain experience here, and, uh, certain feelings come up, and, uh, that is, uh, that does something to me, and then I can work that further. But, um, so once you know that the dream is a world there, you can you can relate to the states of consciousness, you can interpret it. You can, uh, uh, feel the states of consciousness. Uh, you can get a sense of where you are. So it opens up to a lot of ways of being with the, with the dream world that can be beneficial for this world as well.

ALISON: That was beautiful. Thank you. I never thought about it like that. Really never thought about that.

JEAN: So great.

MACHIEL: But that was because you asked a really good question.

JEAN: Yeah. Allison, you are.. You ask such great questions.

ALISON: I’m just I’m very curious you know about this.

JEAN: But she is great .. I take so long to formulate my question that ..it’s all right, but…

JEAN:  Okay, if someone is starting to, to do this process, Machiel, what are some pitfalls that they should be aware of so that they can continue and stay with the the process like 1 or 2 pitfalls?

MACHIEL: Well, what I’ve learned over the years is that, uh uh, people  do this method. They do it well. They just choose a something that’s relevant to them. They phrase a nice one question. After dream, write it down and then think, oh gosh, this has nothing to do with my question. And they dismiss it. And, uh, because the dream sometimes is very literal, but sometimes it’s like the one with the woman and the shoes and, uh, it fits. So what is the feeling, the experience? You sometimes have the puzzle a little bit.

MACHIEL: They say, yeah, I believe this method, but I don’t know if it works for me? And, and, and I’ve come to some, some and I try to tell people, uh, show up for yourself. Uh, because actually, uh, you taking your own dream answer serious is a way in which you also show up for yourself and you build, self confidence and trust because the old wise woman within will answer. It’s not even a moral thing. It’s just like you throw a stone in the air, the stone comes down and you can say, well, that’s right, because it went up, it needs to go down. But it just is. And the dream is we live in a responsive universe. That’s why prayer also works. But it doesn’t work in the way, oh, I want a Ferrari.

ALISON: Right?

MACHIEL: You need to learn to pray a little bit, uh, smarter. And, uh, and with this to the first part is, is how do you ask? It’s kind of dream prayer. How do you ask the good question? And a lot of people get there, but then they dismiss the response because the response is not what they what they suspect, or they don’t get it in 30 seconds, just to write it down and, you know, then come back later and say, gosh, you know, I had a weird dream. Can I share it? And then someone listens to it and they can and they say, well, this makes sense. Or  someone thinks I want another job and literally thinks, oh, buy with Coca Cola. Has the marketing director position open, right? It’s extremely seldom that the dream does that.  It’s more helping you get where you need to be.  And if and if people know that, then it works and it works one time, you can do it multiple times. Uh, so it’s the biggest pitfall –  is that people give up too quickly on themselves.

ALISON: That’s the pitfall in life…right?  that’s basically the truth.

JEAN: Throwing in the towel.

ALISON: That’s really interesting because, if you’re talking about the woman with the shoes, someone could just be like, oh, I’m not going to be a shoe salesman. So therefore, that dream means nothing.

MACHIEL: Yeah, yeah, yeah.  right.

ALISON: And it’s really, it’s almost as if you’re describing, art… Do you know? It’s almost like it’s, it’s evocative, like art. You get a feeling from it. You might see something different than I see. But if it’s my dream, really, what resonates with with me?

MACHIEL: And also stay more with the feeling.  Because in her case, you don’t need to be a great dream interpreter to have –  what is the feeling? Or someone offers me something that doesn’t look really appealing to me… But I try it anyway, and then it is a great fit. Okay that if you stay there and you just have to have the feeling journey and then and that’s much easier to get to then– oh yeah, a raven comes back and these sculptures very often.

ALISON: You just had me think of, because the other night I asked, I want to meet my spirit guide. (question from your book.)  And then the little glimpse that I remember is I’m holding a squirrel and I drop it, it’s like and then it’s like a baby and I’m like oh crap, I dropped the squirrel. Right. And I, and I, and I think oh it’s dead. And then I pick it up and I’m going to nurture it more. And this whole time I’ve been thinking, so that means a squirrel is my spirit guide. But now what you’re making me think is, it was the feeling of wanting to nurture it. So maybe the dream is saying you have a spirit guide- good- keep nurturing it and it will be more vibrant for you.

MACHIEL: Yes, yes. Yeah. Beautiful.

ALISON: So it’s the feeling, really. That’s great.

ALISON: Yeah. Yeah.

ALISON: That’s like a breakthrough.

MACHIEL: Beautiful.

ALISON: Yeah yeah, yeah…it’s been bugging me.

MACHIEL: But that’s great that you also kept with it and this part is can help a lot because otherwise people start googling, uh, squirrels and babies. Right. And, and then you get distracted from.

JEAN: Right. Yes.

ALISON: Right…But I think that feeling is so important. Really? You really.. You’re just so… And what I love about this talk is it’s so respectful of dreams and it’s not compartmentalizing them. I feel just a real, like I feel like all open to it, a great respect. So thank you for sharing that.

MACHIEL: You’re welcome.   And an additional step in the work is then usually also do the follow up. So now that you have a little breakthrough … Okay, I want to nurture this more, and then you then also say, oh, spirit guide, I had this sense of, you have always been here, and I’ve always held you close and, uh, uh, and then I picked you up again. And now I want to nurture our relationship. And, uh, I’m going to do the following thing, whatever that is for you. And, uh, um, and maybe, uh, come back in the dream or in this life and give me some sign that you, uh, that you, uh, heard me, uh, did notice me or something. You know, uh, figure out something so that you that you continue to nurture that, uh, that relationship.

ALISON: I just got chills. Yeah, yeah. That’s great. Thank you so much. Thank you so, so much. This has been such an exciting. You’re very low key and peaceful, but you’re very exciting at the same time.

MACHIEL: hahaha

JEAN: And yeah, you could not have written a more meaningful book about dreams and it and it’s very easy to understand. And I love your examples, Machiel, and I thank you for this new, big door opening to help my soul evolve and to enjoy this life more.

MACHIEL: Beautifully said.. Thank you.

ALISON: Thank you so, so much.

JEAN: We wish you all the best.

ALISON: Thank you. Likewise.

MACHIEL: Yes, it was a delight being with the two of you. I love your energy.

ALISON: Thank you. You’re really you’re really so special and have. Have a good night’s sleep.

JEAN: Yes. Sweet dreams, sweet dreams.

ALISON: Bye. I’m. I’m floating around after that interview.

JEAN: I can tell because you weren’t feeling that well before..

ALISON: I wasn’t feeling great before, and now I feel like I’m on a cloud. Yeah. I loved that interview.

JEAN: That was so great. I have such new appreciation for my dreams, and I really can’t wait to get home and.

ALISON: And get to sleep.

JEAN: Get to sleep… Exactly.

ALISON: That’s right. Good night everybody. Yeah, I, um, I loved his demeanor and his expansiveness and about really tapping in. I think that’s a great thing about the feeling.  As opposed to the meaning. You know, I think in today’s world, we look so much for a meaning or a media gratification or this didn’t happen. And he seemed to describe a slower process, that you tap into and you develop a relationship with and that you’re working from meaning of, not from meanings, but from real emotional content, which is so beautiful to me.

JEAN: Yes. Well said. One of my things from listening to him, is that the empowerment that the dream is your own life force. It’s not looking outside of yourself for someone else to give you an answer. This is all within you. And and it just speaks to the incredible, um, brilliance of our soul and how we are so much more than a body bopping around on a planet having crazy dreams. I mean, we are super beings with this amazing ability to tap into infinite intelligence.

ALISON: Well … what Am I going to say after that?

JEAN: Good night. Good night. Allison.

ALISON: Good night, good night. Well, we hope you enjoyed it. And we we really recommend his book. He is fantastic. I’m going to go get the book again. Wait. I want to get the title correct.

JEAN: Oh, it’s right here. Okay, I’ll say the title –  Dream Guidance.

ALISON: Connecting to the soul through dream incubation. And it’s an easy, quick read, but something that you can keep by your bedside and keep referring to. It’s really, really great.

JEAN: And if you don’t know where to start with a question, he gives very wonderful sample questions for you to start out with. So um…This is a great book.

ALISON: All right. Good night. Good night everybody.

JEAN: Good night.

Alison : Okay. Hi.

Jean: Oh. Good morning.

Alison : Good morning.

Jean: Let me get my glasses on.

Alison : That’s right. You all ready?

Jean: I’m all ready.

Alison : You’re all prepared?

Jean: I’m ready for this amazing interview. What are you looking at?

Alison : It says remove before use on your glasses. That’s excellent. Did you just like…

Jean: Oh, I just got these.

Alison : Okay, let me help you. So what’s our interview today?

Jean: Okay. We have this amazing nurse who is really taking… She’s on fire..she’s hot. This beautiful nurse ,her name is Hadley Vlahos.. And she talks about hospice care. She wrote a book called The In Between and I loved it. Allison.

Alison : Me too.

Jean: And my friend, um, AnneMarie introduced me to this book and she said, Jean, you’re going to love this book. And I do.

Alison : I do too, and I, I think death and before death and what happens during the death process is something that we don’t talk about enough.

Jean: I was actually thinking the same thing. And and I love that she’s she’s gently easing us into the, the okayness around death that it is a natural process and it’s, um, something we all eventually will, will experience. And it’s, um, she’s really a gifted writer as well.

Alison : Oh, yes. Yeah. And I had resistance to reading it because I was taking care of my mother as she was passing, and you’ve been through the process, too. And, um, I really was afraid to read the book because I thought it would bring up so much for me, or I had resistance. And then I said, well, I’ll give it a chapter. And then I just, I loved it. I loved how she writes about it, and it actually gave me comfort. Um, you know, which is great.

Jean: Yeah. I found it very relatable.

Alison : I can’t wait to hear this interview.

Jean: Yeah, me too..Okay, let’s do it.

Alison : Let’s do it.

Hadley: Nice to meet y’all.

Alison : I am so nice to meet you. Uh, you are just so wonderful. And we loved the, In Between… Yeah.

Hadley:  oh, I’m so glad. Thank you.

Alison : And I, I bought some to give to people.

Hadley: Oh, thank you so much. That means the world to me.

Jean: You did such a beautiful job in writing about such a delicate topic, Hadley. And, um, I really appreciate the book and could absolutely relate to it. And I also got a chuckle when I saw my husband’s name when you were talking to your mother.

Hadley: Oh, I forgot about that. Yes.

Speaker3: You mentioned Alex Trebek, and I thought, I am definitely supposed to be reading this book. So, um, anyway, thank you. We know you’re super busy. Uh, your –  this book has really launched a new, uh.

Alison : Like, discussion.

Jean: So many openings for you.

Hadley: Yeah, it definitely has. It’s. Yeah, it’s a whole new world.

Alison : That’s great. Your personality really comes across in this book, but could you tell us a little bit about how you got into hospice care because you were, uh, working in the ER, right?

Hadley: Yeah, So I did a year long internship in the hospital where I went to all different areas of the hospital, but they mostly had me in the ER, and then from there, after that year long, um, internship where I did a night shift, uh, I applied for a day shift job and I didn’t get it. And I had my son, who was so young and, um, I went to my manager and said, you know, how long do you think until I could get moved to day shift? This is really hard for me, finding childcare in the middle of the night. And, um, they said, you know, it could be three years. And I said, I can’t, I can’t do that. So I took a job in the nursing home as a manager, and that is where I really saw hospice patients for the first time. We didn’t really learn about it in school, but we had hospice patients in the nursing home. So I would watch the hospice nurses come in and sit one on one with the patients. And I’m like, I did not know that there was a type of nursing where you could be one on one with patients, and also they would talk to me about more than just their medications and more than just what we were doing for them. To them, honestly, they would tell me about how their family was doing and just a really holistic viewpoint. And I was like, oh, I don’t know what kind of nursing this is, but I want to try this instead and haven’t looked back. That was eight years ago.

Alison : Wow. And the switch from going from, um, caregiving and helping people get better to helping people let go. What was that switch like?

Hadley: That was really difficult for me, because nursing school really teaches you to just fix, fix, fix. And I had to really, um, adjust my thinking to that, instead saying, how can I make them comfortable? And it really is a totally different mindset, to the point where I don’t think I could ever go back to the hospital, because if someone was like near the end of their life, they wanted ice cream, I’d be like, okay, let’s do it, you know?

Jean: Right. Well, you make you, um, really drive that point home in your book that, um, it is about comfort. Is that what you would say? What would you actually say, Hadley, hospice is all about?

Hadley: I actually would say comfort is a big one, but I think that it’s finding, uh, life at the end of life. And I know a lot of people seem to think it a lot of it’s about death. But as you all know, even in the book, it’s less than half a page is usually the death part of it. Um, for each patient, because it’s such a small part of the time that I’m spending with these patients, I really get to see a lot of a lot of life with them and a lot of good quality of life.

Jean: Yeah.

Jean: One of my favorite quotes that you say, well, I have many favorite quotes, but one of them is, um, where you say, Hadley, that being a hospice nurse, you really feel alive.

Hadley: Yeah.

Jean: And why do you think that?

Hadley: I think I get this constant reminder that I’m going to be in those shoes, that bed one day. And I think it’s so easy for people to get caught up in their day to day and their routines, and to forget that one day we’re going to die until it’s in your face. You know, for me, it’s in my face every day because of my job. But for many people, it’s not in their face until they’re losing a loved one. And then all of a sudden we get this wake up call of, oh, that’s going to be me one day, and I need to, i need to live my life. I need to make sure that I’m doing the things that I’m supposed to be doing, like telling people how much I love them and making sure that I’m happy and doing the things I want to be doing. But that’s where I found a lot of life. Is that constant reminder for me that one day I’m going to be in that hospital bed.

Alison : Right when I found it, I took care of my.. We all know about Jean and Alex, and I took care of my mother when she was passing, and it was really hard, hard, really, really hard. And I was afraid to read your book because I thought it was going to bring up, um, a lot of stuff for me, you know? But actually, I found it so comforting. Wow, I feel very emotional. I found it very comforting, um, because she was saying things like, where are all those people going on that escalator? And, you know, grandma told me this today, and I found that so beautiful. So those stories of seeing people that’s consistent for you, right?

Hadley: Yeah, it doesn’t matter what their background is or their beliefs, religious beliefs, no religious beliefs, no matter what it is. And I hear that a lot, or they say that they’re packing bags or there’s a train. And the way I interpret that is that whatever they’re hearing, seeing, knowing about, they don’t we don’t necessarily have the language or the knowledge here on earth to interpret that. So they’re using what’s closest to such as an escalator or a train. Like they they’re going on a trip is what they say, because that’s the only language I think we have to try to interpret what’s going on, because everything will have this like underlying travel theme, but they’ll be but they’ll be different in that way. Or someone says, uh, you know, I need to pack a bag. And I’m like, do you, do you need a bag? And they’ll say, no, I guess I don’t.

Alison : Right, I guess I have everything I need. Um, is there such a thing as, like, I found it very profound. And, uh, your story about Babette, um, because you had felt. And that’s how I felt about my mother. I should have done more. It should have been different. I should have, like, been playing soft music, and it just didn’t happen that way,  and I thought it was going to. So, um, is there is there really now, in hindsight, such a thing as a good passing or a bad passing?

Hadley: I don’t think so. I think that everything happens as it should for, for whatever reason that is. Um, I think it’s easy, though, for me to say, as a nurse with goals, I want certain things to happen for my patients, so of course I can feel like some are better than the other. But at the end of the day, I say, you know, it’s out of my hands. And and this happened for whatever reason it did. And sometimes I’ll learn about it, um, later. Such as, i remember one actually just very recently that a daughter was coming and I really felt like I was like, come on. Like I knew it was going to be very close to her making it. And I was very anxious about it. And, um, she did not make it by like 20 minutes. And of course, in my mind as a nurse, I’m like. Uh, you know, I really wanted her to make it. And should I have called her a day sooner? Because it was one where she was trying to get off work, and so she was like, please call me. This is how long? And so, of course, as a nurse, I’m like, oh gosh, I should have called the day before. But she couldn’t take off like a week and that can be hard to predict. And then at the funeral, she was like, hey, like, you know, I’ve been doing stuff at the funeral this week. Um, I just want to let you know, uh, I think this is how it’s supposed to happen. I really don’t think I could have handled watching her pass. And I was like, okay. And it made me feel better. So, you know, that underlying thing of, like, everything happens as it should, right?

Jean: Right.

Jean: Yeah. That’s such a great thing to remember all the time. So, Hadley, uh, you know, I sense that your connection with your patients is what really is so important to letting them let go and release this physical body and move into the next dimension, if you will. So for you personally, how do you, kind of soothe yourself or not take it so personally. Um, that you get so connected with these beings and you’re giving your heart and your love. Uh, and then you have to… Oh, you know, moving on to the next. I mean, can you talk about that a little bit?

Hadley: Yeah, it can definitely be very difficult for sure. Um, but I think it helps that I’m like, oh, I’m going to see them again one day. And I do truly believe that. So that definitely is more like the see you later instead of goodbye. But it definitely can be difficult whenever you have a really close patient and then you have to just go see someone new. Uh, the good thing about hospice, though, um, especially whenever you do home based care, is that you do get time in the car to decompress. I have a little playlist that I’ll listen to after a patient passes. And, um, that is really nice, as opposed to when you’re in the hospital or really any other setting where you’re going from room to room and you’re immediately usually I’ll get some time and, you know, I’m out here in the country so I can get up to 30 minutes sometimes between patients to kind of decompress, which helps a lot.

Alison : Where are you? Where are you located?

Hadley: I’m, um, outside of New Orleans.

Alison : Oh, excellent. Because I thought. I thought you were closer to the East Coast, but New Orleans. I love New Orleans. Yeah.

Hadley: Me, too.

Alison : Yeah, it’s it’s beautiful.

Alison : It’s so beautiful there. And, um, you have so many different people in this book. Um, have you treated anyone else similar to Albert? (a person living on the streets).

Hadley: Yes, I have some right now. Um, but it’s pretty rare. Usually they will agree to go into a nursing home if we can get them. Patients who are homeless into a nursing home. Um, I had one recently, though, where it was like we meet at the same bench at the same time every week. And I asked my manager, I was like, what happens when they don’t show up? Or if they don’t show up? She said, we’re going to cross that bridge when we come to it. I’m like, okay, so I get nervous every single week, but so far so good. Um, but yeah, that we, we have we have patients like that. It’s always, um,  it’s always challenging, but it reminds me to get out of autopilot, which I think we can all do in our jobs and, um, to, to really make sure that I’m doing things the correct way. And then that also helps with all of my patients.

Alison : Right? Yeah. Right.

Jean: So it I feel like I’ve taken so much, um, pearls of wisdom from your book, Hadley. And can you share 1 or 2 of your favorite patients that have really imprinted something that’s very meaningful to you?

Hadley: Yeah. Um, definitely. Elizabeth, she says to me,  “Eat the cake.” She matters, you know a lot to me. And I’ve seen so many eat the cake tattoos, which is really cool.

Jean: Um, can you tell us about Elizabeth for our audience?

Hadley: Of course. Yeah.  I had a patient who I call Elizabeth, who was younger for a hospice patient in her 40s, and she had lung cancer, but we did not know why. She was like the picture of health. Yoga teacher, um, never smoked a cigarette. Um, and she was dying on hospice, and she just stopped me one day, i was just sitting there with her and said, you know, Hadley, I would love to give you some advice because I see a lot of myself in you. Um, and I really have been sitting here just thinking about my life, and I really wish I would have just eaten the cake. And I wish I would have spent more time with my friends and gone to the beach and not cared what my stomach looked like, and gone to dinners. And, um, what was so significant to me about that was that, um, it it was so true because she ended up dying with just me there. And another one of my coworkers, um, she she did not have her family and friends around her because she had been so obsessed, um, from her words, with just her body image. And it was really eye opening to me whenever I realized that I had been doing that, I had been skipping out on on certain bonding activities because I was so self conscious, and it really changed my life in a really significant way. And I definitely believe that Elizabeth is is looking down and is happy that her, that she impacted so many people in such a big way. Um, that’s been really important to me. And then, um, Carl in my book was like a grandfather to me.  And, um, we had a weird way of going about it.

Hadley: He ended up finding out that I was a single mom, and I just said, you know, I don’t I don’t have time to keep up with the news, with sports and with whatever’s going on in the world. And he’s like, well, I just lie here in bed all day, you know? That’s all I have time to do. So he would start telling me what’s going on in the world and in sports world. And then he started writing down these little notes for me because he would say, every time you leave, I forget to tell you something I wanted to tell you. So I just start writing them down so I’d come give me my little notes. And, um, I didn’t think much of it, uh, at the time it was happening, and I was still pretty new in my career. Just was like something that had developed between the two of us. And then, um, right before he died, he had told me, um, thank you for giving me something to look forward to- instead of death. And that was the moment that I was like, oh, this is what I’m going to do for the rest of my life. Like, this is my calling. This is why I am here. And I think of him so often, whenever I feel like I, I’m not doing much when I just go in there and I’m just taking their vital signs and I’m just like, okay, are you okay on medications? And it just reminds me of just being here and making sure that I’m providing a positive presence and an uplifting presence can, and just talking to them and listening can be doing more than I realize it is.

Alison : That’s a that’s amazing. Um, what do you think are some questions if someone that that our listeners know is in hospice, what are some questions that are important to ask a hospice person or what are some like what how do you prepare for this?

Hadley: Yeah, it can definitely. Be difficult. Um, I would say if you are in hospice, um, nothing is off limits. Um, and don’t be afraid to talk to your hospice nurse, to the hospice social worker. If you are encountering difficulties with the family, because we are so used to that and we we don’t mind at all having conversations and helping to facilitate that. Um, I think people sometimes feel like, oh, I don’t want people to think like, my family’s crazy. Um, I have learned that there is no such thing as a normal family. Like there is absolutely…

Alison : That is so true.

Hadley: There is no Such thing. So we we don’t mind. A big thing that I see hospice patients deal with is that they go to talk to their family and friends about their death, and they start that conversation and out of a place of love, 100% the family or friends will stop them and say, oh my gosh, we don’t need to talk about that. You know, you’re going to get better. You’re going to beat this. They are trying to be positive, and I know it’s coming from a place of love, but my hospice patients will tell me that they feel like they can’t talk to anyone about what they’re going through, and they sometimes just want to be able to express, you know, hey, when I do die, please know how much I love you. And whenever people hear, oh, when I die, they immediately want to be like, oh, that’s not positive. That’s not going to happen. Um, but it’s doing more harm than good. Yeah. And, um, I wish people realized that because I think everyone’s coming from a place of, like, good. Right? Even though it is, you know, you should just let that person tell you what they want to tell you. And if they want to talk about death, to just let them talk about death.

Jean: Right.

Alison : That’s such a good point. This society doesn’t do that. That’s what Jean and I were talking about. This society just makes believe we’re born and like, everything’s about birth.

Jean: We can’t even talk about aging. We can’t talk about…

Alison : Menopause, you know?

Jean: Yeah. You know, I, I want to give a shout out to your profession, Hadley. Because when when Alex passed away, um, I was one of those people that was like, you know, the numbers can change. You’re going to get stronger. You know, people love you. We’re getting so many prayers. You know, it’s going to… And I now, in retrospect, I think that it was hard for Alex to really say to me. I’m really moving in a different direction than you want me to. And it took our hospice nurse who was amazing. Um, to to come into the kitchen and say, you know what, Jean? I was talking to Alex, and he is he’s ready to let go of this physical form. And I had such, I had such a feeling of surrender that there was really it was in God’s hands, if you will. It was not my life, this was Alex’s life, not mine, to dictate and make it about me. Um, me feeling you can do it like that, that had its time for a little bit, but, um, his course of his soul expression here on planet Earth had its own agenda. And I had to really become selfless and just go, i have to let this hospice nurse be with her and not… And I was never against, you know, we it was very short the time that the hospice nurse was with us but that surrender. And then once I really did that there was this peace that passes all understanding. As for me anyway. And, um. Your profession is is such a blessing and it’s not for everyone, you know, you are a chosen few. Um, and so it’s such an honor to talk and with you about this very delicate and important conversation about death.

Alison : Totally. You know, and I think having children. Do you talk to your children about what you do?

Hadley: Yeah. They know, um, they will talk about death very normally. I actually got a call from Brody, who’s now eleven and in school, about a year ago that, um, he had told people in class, um, my mommy went and saw a dead person last night, and I was like, well, I did. I was at the dinner table and I got a call that someone died, and I said, someone died, I’m leaving. And, um, I don’t think too much of it, to be honest. And, um, I said, that is what happened. I’m in hospice nurse, and I said, I’m not going to tell him to not say that. Um, you know, was it upsetting anyone? I mean, that’s that’s what I do for work. Um, and I’m okay with him doing that. He actually lost his dad’s dad, so his grandfather about six months ago, and I was curious how he would handle it with being the first one that he can at least remember. And, um, he said, you know, I think that he I’m going to see him again. And I said, I agree. Um, he said, I think that I can feel him with me sometimes. And I said, I think so, I definitely do. And he said, can I get a picture of him for my room? And I said, absolutely, I’ll do that today. And he said, okay. And then he called his grandmother, you know, his wife, and said, can we go to church? Which is something she likes to do. Can I go with you this Sunday? And she said, yes. And  that’s been the extent of it. He’s done really, really well. I’ve been really proud of him.

Alison : That’s, that’s really amazing. I think teaching, you know, we have older children and I try to talking with them when my mom was back here passing, my kids were in back here running around

Speaker4: Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, there’s no. Way to keep them out, you know? Yeah, it’s it’s, I think it’s an important thing to do. How how has all of this changed your view spiritually? And what do you think happens when they close their eyes and their heart stops? What do you think happens?

Hadley: Yeah. So I consider myself to be spiritual. And, um, I like religion. I think that it can provide a guidebook for like how to live a good life. I just like personally haven’t found a religion that I’m like, oh yeah, that’s that’s me. So I just say that I’m spiritual. I, um, believe that there is some other place that we go that there is like something beyond us, just from what I have experienced, um, with people such as seeing their deceased loved ones and for me, something that’s really significant for even people who don’t, um, believe in anything is that at the end of life, there’s up to a minute between breaths. So scientifically if it was no there’s no spiritual realm, there’s no like feeling of anything, um, then no one would know that someone died until a minute after they’ve actually taken their last breath because, then the next breath never comes and they’re like, oh, they died a minute ago. But being in the room with so many people as they’ve taken that last breath, I have never, ever, ever once not had a family member say that was their last breath immediately and been correct.  Um, you know, and I know too, you can feel it, you know, whenever someone takes their last breath, um, which I think is really interesting, um, you can just feel that there, that that they’re not there anymore. Um, so I don’t really know what exactly happens. And I’ve had to just kind of be comfortable with that of, like, I think something happens, but I’ll figure it out one day?

Alison : I agree, I totally agree, but I love that I think people look to people like you, you know, for that, which is interesting. Is that is that good or is that a pressure or like what? How do you feel about the impact you’re having right now?

Hadley: I actually, when I was writing the book, went back and forth. My editor love her so much. Um, so I was raised in the Deep South, raised very religious, and, um, she wanted me to put that I was spiritual and not religious in the conclusion, which I did. And, um, I said, they’re going to like, come for me, like, they’re gonna everyone’s gonna one star my book. Like, I can’t do it. I can’t do it. Just leave it out. And she’s like, no, because people are gonna put down the book and they’re gonna have questions. You have to. You have to just own it. Just be yourself. The amount of people who have come to me and said, thank you so much. Thank you for putting that. Thank you for saying, because I’ve felt I’ve also was raised religious and I fear saying, you know, maybe I’m not anymore, but maybe that doesn’t mean that I’m an atheist. Maybe it means that I can just be spiritual and I can still have these beliefs without necessarily agreeing with some of the religious trauma that I have. And, um, it’s been overwhelming positive. But I was very, very, very scared about putting that.

Alison : I bet. Yeah.

Jean: I mean, you know, your book, you you’ve shared so much about your life, Hadley. You know, it’s not easy to. Yeah. And then to have this book be accepted at such a level.  Like here you go from small town, hospice nurse and I’m going to share my stories and, and, uh, where this book has really opened your life to such a public platform.  How do you feel? Do you feel different about that now? Do your children?

Alison : Do you Personally feel different? Yeah.

Hadley: Yeah, it’s a little bit. I was actually just talking to my therapist about this this morning that, um. Yeah, it is, it’s been, um, it’s it has been sometimes I kind of want to, like, run back to that comfort of, you know, um, that. But I feel like from doing my book and speaking tour recently and getting to meet hundreds of people, that it is having a really positive impact. But it can be scary to be so out there and have so many people, um, kind of looking at me because I did have a little comfort zone of just taking care of my patients and, you know, going home and not going to the grocery store and having people stop me. And it’s it’s been an adjustment, but obviously it’s been a very positive one. And my therapist is like, we’re going to get through this. We’ve been through it. We’re getting through it as long as you want to. And I was like, I think it’s positive. She’s like, okay, that’s right.

Alison : That’s right.  Yeah, the universe has plans for us sometimes that we can’t even imagine. And yeah, put yourself in a place and you’re like, wow, like…

Jean: oh my gosh.

Alison : Well, it’s the Talking Heads…(the song) How did I get here? You know?

Jean: Exactly right. And you’re communicating such a beautiful message, Hadley. And it certainly comes from such a beautiful soul…yours.

Hadley: Thank you.

Jean: And, um, you know, we wish you all the best.

Alison : You’re just so lovely and really, you know, and and I heard this is becoming a series?

Hadley: Yes. NBC Universal is turning it into a scripted series. And I’m super excited. We have a great producer on board that hasn’t been announced yet, and I’m an executive producer, and I’m excited for it. I think that they’re going to really, uh, display it in the correct light. I feel like we don’t really see peaceful deaths on TV at all. And, um, I’m really excited for people to see that side.

Alison : It’s really great, you know? You know, Touched by an Angel affected a lot of people. And it went on for years because I think people need, especially in these days, hope. And I think you’ve given people a different way to view something that has been so deemed as scary or uncomfortable. So you really are, um, you know, an angel walking around.

Hadley: Thank you.

Alison : You’re doing the good work. You’re a champion. Thank you so much.

Hadley: Thank you, I appreciate that.

Alison : And I love this room that you redecorated.

Hadley: Oh thank you.

Alison : I saw it on Instagram. I’m like oh… Yeah she’s got another career happening!

Hadley:  I have a really good friend, Lexi from social media. And she, uh, she’ll send me mockups on stuff, so I can’t take too much credit for that.

Alison : Well, you’re wearing it. Well, my friend, uh.

Hadley: Thank you.

Jean: Uh, you deserve everything that’s really beautiful in this world.

Alison : Thank you so much for talking with us.

Hadley: Thank you.

Alison : Have a beautiful day.

Hadley: Yes, thanks. Bye bye.

Alison : Oh my gosh. She is an like an angel.

Jean: If you who else would you want as a stranger to be by b your bedside when you are taking your last breath? I mean, yes, your loved ones, that’s true, but then next would be Hadley, Nurse Hadley.

Alison : And I think all hospices, like you brought up all hospice nurses , really come with something special.

Jean: Right. And and because that time, that that very in-between time, as Nurse Hadley puts it, uh, is so, it’s so special or vulnerable. Extraordinary. I mean, it’s not just your day to day, but…  you know, these these nurses that that help bridge the physical life to the spiritual life are really, um, doing magnanimous work.

Alison : And I really appreciated what you shared about about Alex. And because I think so many times, people go through something like this or a trauma, and they can’t picture anyone else as having, yeah, problems with it or challenges. And so I think it’s really great to read Hadley’s book and to begin a talk, begin to talk about this in a discussion about this, because death is very important.

Jean: It is. I don’t know where I read this quote, but or this statement, but someone said it’s the most, the biggest spiritual experience anyone has. And when you think about it, it’s so true. And , um, I’m glad that we’re all opening up more and more to the spiritual, right, not just the physical.

Alison : We hope you found this, uh, comforting. And really, we can’t recommend the In-Between more. It’s a beautiful, beautiful book. And a glimpse into something that we don’t often have the opportunity to see.

Jean: No, we don’t give a lot of time and attention to this very reverent topic. So thank you everyone.

Alison : Have a great day.

Jean: I hope you …  Eat the cake.

Alison : Yes, Let’s go do that.  I love that.

Jean: What’s your favorite cake?

Alison : Oh well, I like all of them. Now I’m moving into sort of like a lemon. Um, uh, orange. I’m moving into those because I’m not doing as much chocolate. What about you?

Jean: I’m a big coconut fan.

Alison : Oh, yes.

Jean: and I also love German chocolate cake.

Alison : I know you do.

Jean: Which Alex loved also.

Alison : I know he loved it. Well, have a great day… we have to eat cake now. Okay, bye.

JEAN: There we are.

ALISON: Here we are.

JEAN: This is one of my favorite things to do.

ALISON: Sit together, jammed up into a microphone and having fun, right?

JEAN: Yes.

ALISON: Just hanging out. We love it. How was .your day?

JEAN: My day was busy. I spoke to a lot of people today, and, uh. But it was a great day.

ALISON: It was. And I started Tai Chi today.

JEAN: You did? that’s right.

ALISON: Yes. And it, um. You know, it looks so easy, and the guy turned around and he goes, “Alison, how did you do?” And I just said to him, I’m glad you weren’t watching. And the guy starts laughing. Yeah, because that is the truth. I’ll get better.

JEAN: And I love that you’re doing that. You’re really doing some unique things that that you have, not unique, but things that you haven’t been doing all your life.

ALISON: It’s stuff that’s starting with T – tap and tai chi.

JEAN: Right…well, go you!

ALISON: I’m gonna be a twirling dervish next.

JEAN: You’ll be a twirling top.

ALISON: That’s correct. So we have a wonderful interview today.

JEAN: We do. We have Emily Grodin.

ALISON: And her mom, Valerie.

ALISON: Emily is an incredible poet. And the two of them wrote a book called, “I Have Been Buried Under Years of Dust- a memoir of autism and hope”. Emily is on the on the autism spectrum.

JEAN: Right. And her mother, Valerie, and her dad, Tom, really championed her to, um, help her speak.

ALISON: Right. And they use, um, they use a technique called facilitated communication. So there’s a woman sitting with Emily, and her name was Stephanie, i think when we talked… Was that right?

JEAN: I don’t remember her name, but she was very nice. Right?

ALISON: She was very nice…you’ll hear her be introduced. And then when Emily responds to her questions, you’re going to hear like a robotic Siri, like, um, computer voice. Because what Emily is doing is typing and then it speaks back. Right?

JEAN: Right. And what a great device that has really opened up Emily’s life to this creative expression of writing. And she she’s actually writing a screenplay.

ALISON: Yeah. That’s right. And her poetry I found so moving and so, um, deep, meaningful, deep and meaningful and so accessible for, for so many people. So we think you’re going to love this interview.

JEAN: We know you’re going to love it.

ALISON: Ohhh…

JEAN: We do.

ALISON: Being definite.

JEAN: Such a treat… Valerie.

ALISON: We read your book and it’s really amazing. Emily, you are such a beautiful writer.

VALERIE: Hello.. And Stephanie Lewis is with Emily. I should introduce Stephanie. Stephanie, stick your head in there.

STEPHANIE: Hi. That’s me. Hi. How are you?

JEAN: I just first want to say that, um… So, I’m Jean, and this is Alison, and, um. your story is amazing and I think it brings such hope to.. It’s just another huge beacon of hope for people to know that this modality of communicating is out there…

VALERIE: Right, yeah.

ALISON: And I thought what was amazing was even if, uh, right now I feel like the world needs more hope. And I feel that your book communicates that in a larger spectrum- that the two of you, uh, really never gave up.

VALERIE: Well, and Tom too, are the three of us.

ALISON: Yes. I’m sorry.

VALERIE: Yes, Tom was such a big part of this, too. Because he, you know, he sort of brought me back when I was sort of, you know, careening out of control a little bit. I mean, it was, you know, there was a balance to it, you know, I mean, Emily, Emily went through so much. I mean, the child was subjected to one therapy after another. And she never complained. She never, you know, pushed back. She just sort of went along with things, you know, and and on our part, you know, was constantly searching for things that would help her because, you know, it wasn’t to normalize her. It was just to help her have access to the world. And I think that’s one of the things that I kind of want people to understand, because some of the comments that have been written about me, um, in on some platforms has been that I was trying to make her quote unquote normal, but what was not the case… I mean, I love Emily as exactly as Emily is, for who she is, in every aspect about her. I mean, there’s not anything I don’t love about my daughter, but, you know, I understood the challenges that the world presents. And I really was just trying to, um, make her better able to access the world, um, given who she is. And I think any parent does that. I mean, all of our kids have. I mean, everybody has their limitations. I have my limitations. You know? I mean, you try to maximize what you can, so that you can have a good life, you know? And that’s all I was really trying to do for her.

ALISON: I never felt that reading the book. I have to be honest with you. I actually just, we both have two children, and they’re just around…. Emily, how old are you right now? is that okay to ask? I’ve never asked a woman their age, but how old are you, Emily?

STEPHANIE: 29. Oh, sorry. I have her volume super low. 29 there.

EMILY: 29.

ALISON: Wow – so you’ve been able to find this opening for yourself to communicate, Emily, for the past five years?

EMILY: That’s right.

ALISON: Very nice…And your poems, um, I was so moved by your poems. Some of them… see, I’m going to get teary eyed… Some of them truly expressed things that I have felt in my life. And I thought the universality of them was so moving. How long does it take you to write a poem? Does it just flow out of you quickly, or is it something that you spend a lot of time with?

EMILY: They come quickly. I would usually complete in an hour.

ALISON: That is shocking…that’s like you are a muse.

VALERIE: You know, it’s interesting…that’s how poets are, though, you know, I mean, Paul Simon, I don’t know if you ever saw that that exhibit up at the Skirball about Paul Simon, but he would go to a Chinese restaurant and just write down on a napkin. And that’s really like Emily. I mean, she just it just comes to her. It’s really extraordinary. Um, she wrote a few weeks ago, we were out in the sun too much, and she got a terrible sunburn on her feet, of all places… The top feet, the worst. She wrote the funniest poem,just like that about the sunburn. She gets moved. I mean, it really is amazing. It’s just a total gift.

ALISON: Yeah.

VALERIE: A gift, isn’t it, Emmy?

EMILY: It is.

JEAN: So Valerie, can you tell me, um, what was your inspiration to write a book after you saw that Emily was really opening up to being able to communicate, it was like you pulled the lid off, right? I love the title – “I have been buried under years of dust.” I love the title. I know that Emily said those exact words to you…. And so what was your intention?

VALERIE: Well initially, my intention was to publish Emily’s writings and her poetry. And that’s how initially we approached various, um, agents and unfortunately, none of them or fortunately, I suppose, because we ended up with this great book. Um, they felt that the writings of an individual with autism would not be a sell, and nobody wanted to get involved with it. So I contacted some people that were pretty well known, actually, in the business, and they said, oh, what you should do is you should just get Emily published in as many places as you can, and then eventually her name will be known. But there was one agent, who I was referred to, who read Emily’s work, and he went, “oh my God. You know, this is incredible stuff.” But even more incredible, is the story of how you got there. And he said, I think that’s the story that should be told. And so we talked about it and we discussed it, and we figured a way to propose it. But my main proviso was that her work had to be included throughout the book. And that’s how the reflections came up. So it was, you know, that’s how her work is integrated, because that was important. People needed to hear her voice. It wasn’t just the back story of how we got there, which I think is the backdrop to me. It’s the backdrop, you know, all the work, everything that happened. It’s the predicate, you know, to what actually was developed. And I think it’s important, but more important, is that her words come out and that the light be shown on her, because that was my initial original intent. It wasn’t about me and it wasn’t about Tom. It was about her. And, um, you know, I mean, really, I have to be honest, and I’ve shared this with many people before, is that after so many years of people not recognizing Emily’s strengths and just how bright she was and how much she had to contribute, I wanted a light to shine very brightly on her, very brightly on her. And that’s why this, that’s what was my goal. I mean, that was my goal always. And so we accomplished that. I mean, you know, once Emily wrote those first words were so profound — “I had been buried under years of dust.” I mean, who writes that? Who says that the first time coming out of their mouth? And the interesting thing about Emily was that, you know, this methodology of communicating with facilitated communication or supported typing, whatever you want to call it. Um, what was interesting about it for her was that it wasn’t just a matter of communicating wants and desires, she could kind of do that, but it was full thoughts and very lyrical thoughts and beautifully put and so expressive and perfect typing. Perfect spelling. Uh, you know, everything in that book, that’s hers. We do have a note at the end, is all original writing. There’s no editing to any of that. Um, which is really important because here’s a person who did not communicate verbally and who really never, never wrote because she because they did not, were unable to measure her capacity in many ways. Um, you know, our testing of individuals is typically with verbal responses. And so it was hard to measure, I think, for people people knew that she was bright because she, uh, Emily was, you know, so responsive and and so capable nonverbally. I mean, her nonverbal, her level of nonverbal communication was unbelievable. And her way to accomplish things was nonverbal. And her way to manipulate was really very clear to people. But in terms of her expectations of her writings, she had, you know, she her she was never she never wrote a story. She never wrote an essay. She never did any of that all the way through school. Um, her testing was done really by multiple choice… Yes. No, that sort of thing. Yeah.

ALISON: What’s interesting is that it made me realize, uh, what a powerful listener you are Emily, you were listening, I guess, to be able to absorb and write in such a way, listening to teachers and people for many years and being able to to to take that in. I found that moving because I think so many times, unless people, um, I feel like sometimes people sell other people short in their daily lives. And you are such a lesson that to me that, um, people that are different than me, people that might–like senior citizens, you know, like my, my grandmother reached a point and sometimes people would think she couldn’t hear anything. I knew she was hearing every single thing because she was communicating with me, and I found that very profound for you, Emily. In your classes now, are you still in, did you graduate college? Are you still at, um, Santa Monica College?

EMILY: Still at a local school.

ALISON: Where do you see yourself in in 5 or 10 years, Emily? What what do you think about that? Like in terms of your future, where would you like to be in 5 or 10 years?

EMILY: I would like to have a degree and I know I will always be writing. Maybe screenwriting next.

ALISON: Wow, that would be great. I would love that. I would love to read one of your scripts.

VALERIE: Yeah. She’s, uh, she’s kind of been working on something, so. Yeah. That and continued poetry. Yeah. I mean, shout out to Valley College. She’s she’s going to Valley College now and she has been for a while and um, Los Angeles Valley College and. Yeah. So she’s going to just get her preliminary stuff out of the way. She’s a few more courses to go, and then we’ve got to figure out what the next steps are going to be.

JEAN: So Valerie, I know that your friends with the Asner’s. Yes, we did a little article on them on insidewink. And can you tell me how you got, uh, introduced to to the Ed Asner Family Center and how that helped you or if it did?

VALERIE: They had a camp that I sort of learned about through some friends. And then when they moved here into Reseda, I heard about the center and I went to see it, and I didn’t know Matt or Nava personally before that. But after we went over there and we we saw what a beautiful, incredible setting it was. Um, and the place is absolutely gorgeous and the types of programming that they were offering and that it appealed to, they had programming actually, for older individuals. It wasn’t just for, um, children. They were offering activities. They were offering um, uh, acting and hooking up with some with a miracle project and other acting classes and social activities. There was drumming. There were other things. And so that’s how, you know, we got started with them and we were with them. We but we didn’t start until right before the beginning of 2019, you know. So it went through until the pandemic and there were some great parties. I mean, there was a great Christmas party, I mean, an unbelievable Christmas party. And people came from all over, you know, the South, the South area, from Los Angeles, even people from the West side who don’t ever want to come into the valley, we’re coming into the valley because it was such a great party and they had food trucks and everything.

VALERIE: So that’s how I really met them. I knew Nava’s story, I knew the back story of Nava, and I knew of Ed Asner, and I knew, you know, through some professional connections. But that’s how really how I met them was really when Emily and I first went over there and she participated in their activities, and then we got to know them better and better, you know, as we went along and, and are really delighted to be part of their circle. Um, honestly, I mean they are fantastic advocates and the environment is beautiful and. Emily is now participating, there’s actually – they have the autism spectrum dating or something, you know, for kids on the spectrum to learn how to kind of socialize and to date and that sort of thing. So that’s a really nice thing for Emily. And that’s, you know, it’s hard. The activities for older individuals are fewer and far between or ones that are eaningful. And so they’re providing that opportunity. And I think it’s smart of them to recognize that kids grow up, you know?

ALISON: How long did it take you to write the book… Like how long was it, how many years was the process?

VALERIE: It was a two year process.

ALISON: I couldn’t put it down.

VALERIE: Oh, good. I’m glad you liked it.

ALISON: Really..you know, we get a lot of things to read and and talk to people, and you try to at least be familiar with it. And I have to tell you, I finished it in a day. I could not put it down. My husband’s like, are you going to eat dinner? I was like, no, no, she’s going to Ireland. I got to get through the Ireland part. You know, it just was really, really…it just made me cry.

VALERIE: Yeah. The Ireland part was crazy. I have pictures, we have pictures. Um, there’s some pictures on the website. I know when, um, Fox LA did the, um, the piece with Michaela Pereira, they had the picture of Emily actually kissing the the castle, which was the craziest thing. I mean, if you’ve been there, you know, it’s a difficult place to, it’s difficult to kiss that stone anyway, and probably isn’t the healthiest thing in the world but we couldn’t do it, because of the tour group coming in from the ship, the tour, the cruise ship that came in on the west coast of Ireland.

ALISON: So I liked your improv, like kiss over here, kiss this wall. And you know what? I believe that it’s all connected anyway. So, you know, make the castle the stone… Like kiss this brick, that brick. I thought that was great. I loved your, um, sort of like… All right, this will do.

VALERIE: Desperate, desperate measures.

ALISON: Right? We’ve all we’ve all been there. I think that was pretty great to improvise. Yeah., I was also very moved by what you wrote, Emily… Emily writes a section about, um, her parents that is so moving to me, and I want to read it to my kids and say, pick up a pen. It really was so beautiful, emily, what you wrote about about your parents. That was a beautiful, beautiful moment in the book.

EMILY: Thank you. And earlier talking about being a good listener. My parents, they really knew I was taking it all and grateful for that.

JEAN: Yeah, I love that you say that, Emily. I think it’s such a poignant and powerful acknowledgement –it’s that giving and receiving are one. That your parents saw you, saw beyond your challenge and um, and just never gave up. But they actually saw you… The truth of you. That’s one of the reasons why Allison and I talked about naming our website inside Wink. It’s the love, the goodness within everyone that comes out and, um, and we all need to do that for each other. And you know, I know your parents, um, that’s such, such a powerful act of love. And I’m so inspired by both of you. I’m going to start crying.

VALERIE: Thank you so much. Thank you.

ALISON: So beautiful. And it’s really that this book is a love story. And, uh, we really appreciate you being here, and I’m so happy that you two are being honored together.

VALERIE: Thank you. Yeah.

Speaker3: Valeie, is there anything you want to say before end?

ALISON: Or Emily?

JEAN: Or Emily, Yes of course…

VALERIE: There’s so much to say, I mean, we hope certainly that people, you know, will understand the importance of just never giving up and understand that, you know, just because a child each reaches that magical age of, of so-called maturity or 18, doesn’t change anything. I mean, there’s still a child, an individual who needs, could need possibly some more pushing and assistance. And I know it’s considered a magical date by many people and many parents of kids with challenges. But, you know, like you continue to grow and develop. I mean, I’ve always said to people, look, I feel like I continue to to grow and develop well, well past 18. And why shouldn’t our kids, you know, why shouldn’t we continue? I’m still I’m still developing. I’m still learning, constantly learning. And I feel like the elasticity of the brain is such that, you know, you have to really go in there and mine it and use it and, and keep at it. And I and I would encourage people to do that. All people, you know, you don’t just stop learning, you don’t stop developing. And I think that’s a big mistake for a lot of people.

ALISON: You kept going and kept trying.

VALERIE: And we still are. We still are. It’s not over.

ALISON: Righ…Did you know you had this much, um, strength?

VALERIE: Well, you know, I’m super stubborn and I’m super independent, and I think that I think it, you know, you don’t you’re not left with a choice. You know, to me, they’re, you know, it’s kind of like you have to rally because there’s no choice. What are you going to do? Nothing. So if whatever may have been lacking in me, was certainly pushed to the to the edge…there just is no choice, in my mind.

JEAN: Right. I have to just speak to that because people would say that my husband, when he was going through his cancer treatments and everything, he they’d say, oh, Alex, you’re you’re so strong. And he’d say, I don’t have a choice. I’m just doing what I need to do.

VALERIE: Exactly.

JEAN: And I think that’s such a recognition of the power of the human spirit that we just rise to the occasion, and there is a choice… Do we want to throw in the towel? Or can we just know that there’s something else we can do, something more, more expansive? Yeah.

VALERIE: Right. And that’s always been that next challenge for, for us, you know, as a family… what is that next step? You know, how can we raise the bar? I mean, and I will say that that was you know, that was one thing I think probably the biggest difference between my view of things and the school district’s view of things was that they wanted to lower the bar, and I wanted to raise the bar, you know, and that was always it. And I think that, you know, in many ways, the reason for wanting to raise the bar is that because I did see this extraordinary light in Emily and an extraordinary capability which they may not have seen, but I saw, that we saw, Tom and I saw and you know, you just don’t let that be, you know, no parent lets that be. Um, you can’t… It’s impossible to do that. Um, so, you know, that’s that’s kind of what has kept us going and still does. I mean, every day is, I used to say every day is a new dawn with Emily. I didn’t know who I was going to wake up to. I didn’t know who or what was going to happen. And this was, you know, when things were were kind of bleak. I didn’t know who, what was going to happen, who she was going to be, what was going to be our next…. And it’s still the case now. You know, I still don’t know who she is every morning going to be every morning. I have a better sense now because she can kind of communicate better. But honestly, I mean, it’s always a new challenge and I guess I like challenges.

ALISON: I guess, I guess…Well, you were presented with challenges. You know, you’re going to you’re going to like them or not, you know, and….

VALERIE: I think I figure things out a little bit later than I should of I, you know, I’ve sort of, you know, I sort of used to kick myself and say, you know, I should have known about things earlier on in the process than I did. And I had no excuse. You know, I was educated, I was a lawyer, I had access to things, you know, things that other people came to learn earlier about the disability. I didn’t know, um, and I don’t know whether it was because I was upset. I mean, my husband says I was very upset at the beginning. I don’t remember it being so that so, but maybe I was trying to figure it would, you know, it would it was just going to kind of disappear, you know, magical thinking, as I say in the book, you know, I was like a magical thinking. It’s like, if I think it’ll go away, you know?

ALISON: My favorite line of the whole book was, you were talking about something.. and then you said, “but first I had to make some mistakes.”

VALERIE: Yeah, that.

ALISON: Really resonated with me. Yeah. When I look back on my life, I went, wow, I guess I had to do all those, learn all those mistakes, go through all that.

VALERIE: Well, we all make mistakes. I mean, we all make mistakes. And, you know, you know, I always felt that none of them was irreversible. But you know, the thing is, time is really not on your side when you’re raising a child. You know, I always felt like every minute counted. It was like, every minute counted. Like, don’t tell me about giving me therapies in two years from now. I need them now. I need them today.

ALISON: I’m right there with you.

JEAN: Life is precious, Time is precious. It’s our gold….and what we do…. And we all know it goes by so fast. And we learn that lesson constantly. Now, whether what we do with that is, is another thing.

Speaker4: So do Emily, do you have any final thoughts.

EMILY: Just to always make your own path if there is not one for you?

ALISON: Oh.

JEAN: Oh you’re amazing.

ALISON: Emily….You’re really so spectacular.

JEAN: What a light!.

ALISON: Thank you. Thank you both for talking with us and taking up this this time. I really appreciate it.

VALERIE: Thank you. This was so delightful. You’re both are so lovely.

ALISON: Okay. Our computer is acting up right now…it’s not us.. Hahah

JEAN: It’s never us. We’re geniuses with TI…. I mean, people call us from all over the world to get help with this … HAHAH.

ALISON: It’s IT. hahahah. I really enjoyed talking to Emily and Valerie.

JEAN: Yeah, they are a lovely, lovely people. And I love that they really support each other. Valerie is just such a source of strength. And I know Emily feels so grateful for her parent’s support.

ALISON: That the last thing she said about creating your own path.

JEAN: Yes. Talk about being committed to your own life and not following someone else’s.

ALISON: Right. And you really, I couldn’t put this book down. It was a very fast moving read because their journey is so it’s so involved. And, you know, Tom and Valerie and Emily, it’s very involved and really has really deep highs and lows. But yet they never lost hope, which I really appreciated.

JEAN: And Valerie definitely has that, for me, that motto, “if where there’s a will, there’s a way.” So I am so inspired by both Emily and and her mom, Valerie.

ALISON: Me too. I’m inspired too.

JEAN: Okay…Well, we can both be inspired.

ALISON: I guess so…Hey, thank you so much.

JEAN: We hope you’re inspired.

ALISON: That’s right. Have a great day. Okay. Bye.

JEAN: Bye.

Alison: Hello? Yes.

Jean: Oh, yes, you did it. You’re so good. Look at you, Alison.

Alison: I’m learning this. Um. Hi, Jean.

Jean: Hello.

Alison: Uh, so today is a very special day for Jean and I. Because Jean is going to try to teach me how to make two desserts.

Jean: That’s right, I am, and I it’s my Christmas gift to you.

Alison: Right.

Jean: To teach you how to bake.

Alison: Right. Teaching me how to bake. So today we’re making two desserts. And I guess next time we’re sometime we’ll tell you how it turned out.

Jean: Okay, that sounds like a plan.

Alison: And today we are talking to someone whose book is titled, listen to this title… “Love Yourself Happy: A Journey Back to You” by Shari Elise…

Jean: Who is also known as the Joy magnet. And it is no doubt why she was named this, right?

Alison: She’s, she’s she’s amazing. She’s so joyful.

Jean: I mean, I’m like trying to think of some other adjective, but joy is really the perfect adjective for this beautiful woman.

Alison: And she’s had quite an interesting background, um, as a child. And if you get the book, you’ll read it. She went through, um, sexual abuse and just the testifying and just a lot. She’s gone through a lot. And so her, her coming to a place of joy and wanting to be vulnerable and wanting to be true to her passions is very motivating and very motivating and very inspirational. Right.

Jean: She is. She’s great. You’re gonna love the interview. And you’re also going to love, love her book.

Alison: Yeah. It’s beautiful. So here’s, Shari.

Alison: So happy we’re doing it. We’re now uncapped and it’s fantastic.

Shari Alyse: And you’re together.

Jean: Yeah. We’re together. And you are so worth waiting for because I know our listeners are going to absolutely love you and take away so many, uh, wonderful tips.

Alison: Love Yourself Happy: A Journey Back To You. Why did you… Could you just give our listeners an idea why you decided to write this book? What came up for you?

Shari Alyse: I think this book has always been in me. I’ve always, since the time I was a young girl. As I share in the book, um, sharing my truth, I shared it at seven years old, you know, on a witness stand. Uh, and so there’s always been this desire to whatever it is that I’m learning or I’m feeling. I’ve just always wanted to express it. And as time went on, it was this bubbling inside because I knew and I’ve always instinctively knew that we all go through similar things together. And so if I was learning and I was healing, I knew that my journey would help others.

Alison: That’s right. That’s beautiful. Yeah.

Jean: And can you talk about your journey? What happened a little bit?

Shari Alyse: Yeah. Of course. It’s like when I hear the word journey, it’s so big, right? So I’m like, oh, which part? But, um, yes. So at seven years old, uh, this is always for me, you know, where that starting line feels like, uh, there was of course, a lot before that, but that’s where the turn for me happened. Um, I was I was left in the care… Basically, my sister was going off with friends for the day, and my mom was like, can your sister tag along? I think my mom was a single mom. I know she was a single mom, and I think she wanted, you know, some time for herself. And so, uh, I went off with my sister’s friend’s family who were supposed to care for me, and then they left me in the care of somebody else who didn’t care for me. Um, and at seven, I was abused. Sexually abused, um, by a stranger. It’s interesting because I’ve had so much time, you know, I’ve talked about this so much and in depth and so much continues to come up, though, about, you know, how and why. And I shared what happened. So the man who had done it had threatened afterwards, myself and my family, that if I shared that he would hurt them and he would hurt me. But there was, you know, something inside of me that just knew to tell on him. And in that telling I told.. I tried to tell my sister on the drive home, but, you know, she was with her friends, so she of course, at nine, she was only two years older, at nine years old, didn’t know what was going on.

Shari Alyse: So when we got home, um, I still wanted to tell her. So I remember she was going to the bathroom and I was just in the bathroom with her. And my mom had sensed that there was something wrong with me. And so my mom was actually eavesdropping around the corner, um, listening to me tell my sister that. And in that process, they called the police. Um, and I, we ended up in court. It was 1981, so no one was talking openly about this. And they put me on a witness stand to testify against the abuser. And, you know, we put him in jail. But what happened for me, there was, you know, I ended up, what feels like to this day, having to defend why I didn’t do more at that age to stop this person, you know. Um, and so just from that point on, I learned two things. And those two things were that using my voice, telling my truth helped people because they found out he had done this to a lot of girls. And. You know, I was lauded a hero. But I also found out that using my voice also hurt people because there was a part of me that a big part of me that felt guilt for putting him in jail. Um, and for and for putting my parents… what I thought at that time, I thought my dad was ashamed of me. I thought my mom thought she didn’t teach me the right things, you know? So it really has been this journey of disconnection from that young girl of not wanting to feel that. Yeah. To finding my way back. Right to that young girl.

Jean: You know, I think it’s it’s so cathartic to to share your story as, as you were saying because it’s a part of soul retrieval. You know, that part where we, where we have disconnected from ourselves. And yes, you went through something horrific. But even when you’ve been yelled at by an adult as a child, I mean, the trauma forces the psyche to sort of split. So I do think that telling your story is medicine for soul retrieval. Um, and we can use different words. But I thank you so much because that, you know, sharing your story, sometimes it gets like, oh my God, but you’re doing it and you’re helping new ears here. And I thank you, Sherry.

Alison: Yeah. And I think to not to be defined by that is really something like, you know, you know, at seven years old, it must have been like, what a brave thing and a brave little, you know, or you know, something. There was a marker, a designation of you. And now how do you feel now? Because you have gone out of your way not to be defined by that.

Shari Alyse: Out of my way is a perfect example. I mean, a description of and I knew that. And again, you know, there were two things that I knew at that time for sure. Number one, while it was happening, I remember knowing that I was going to be okay. I there was just something inside that was just almost like, bear it. You’re gonna be all right. Um, but I also knew, too. I knew that I didn’t do anything wrong. Right. And I knew that I did not want to be a victim. And. That was good and it sent me on a different path as well, which was to not connect to what had happened and to deny what I think will I what I know that I was feeling and pushing that down. So then it was again, that journey to coming back to he feeling it, hearing it, sitting with it, and then still having that thing that I won’t be defined by it. Right?

Alison: And now you are the joy magnet.

Shari Alyse: That’s what they say.

Jean: You exude this joy and it’s contagious. Sherry, can you tell us the difference in your mind between happiness and joy?

Shari Alyse: Yes, absolutely. So it’s on, on in a basic way. Happiness is external. It’s those things that we define ourselves or that happen to us that, you know, we talk about the emotions and the feelings of happiness that makes me happy. Uh, and joy for me and people… What I’ve learned is that it’s internal, that it’s a state of being. It’s who we are, and it’s something that can’t be taken away. While it may not be sparked in that moment, for me, it just feels like our soul. It’s who we are as children. It’s why we relate when we look at them. We can recognize ourselves in that. Um, and I and I always I have this I don’t know if it’s analogy, but I always say it feels like, um, if life was a dinner table, happiness is what’s being served on the table, and joy is what we bring to the table.

Alison: That’s beautiful. I have to just say to every listener, this book, your book, Love Yourself Happy… what we’re talking about, is so great. You know, we read it the first time we were going to interview you, and then we did it again. And I have to tell you, every time I read it, I get something new. And the thing that impresses me the most every time I read it is how you are so much like me. And I’m sure everybody says that you’re so vulnerable. How was that to write something that’s so you so personal?

Shari Alyse: Freeing, uh, and definitely freeing because it felt like it’s why I create content actually every day… Videos…. It feels like this part of my soul that needs to be expressed. And once I do, there’s a lightness to it. Um, it was hard because there was so much. There was a lot that I blocked out. There was a lot that I had to sit with and really remember and put myself back in that place. But it was fun. Like so much of my book was written by audio. So I would as I was doing my morning hikes, I was just sharing, um, into my phone notes. And so which is always so interesting when people say like, it feels like I’m right in the room. When you were talking to me, I’m like, I literally was. I was just speaking it.

Jean: Your book is an easy read in that it’s very relatable and, and I do think this should be a required reading for high school seniors because you go through so much already by the time you’re 17 or 18. And many of us don’t even connect back to ourselves. And we live so much life, sort of disconnected. You use the word connection a lot in this book. Can you talk about? The meaning of connection?

Shari Alyse: Yes I mean connection, connection to me is what Joy is. I believe it’s why you both have said that I exude and radiate joy is because for me – Joy is connection to five things. Uh, connection to ourselves, connection to each other, to our creativity, our purpose and to nature. I feel like when we connect to each one of those selves, it sparks joy. And I spent many years, as I said, disconnected from myself. Which means, you know, I was using food to not have to feel it, to not connect with myself. I was in relationship. Toxic relationships with men just trying to feel loved. But I was disconnected from myself because if I was, I would have felt love, right? Um, there was just a lot of avoiding that so many of us do, whether it’s through scrolling, whether it’s through eating, drinking, shopping, binge watching television. It’s just that thing to not be still and to feel and to sit with ourselves. And I realized that I had spent a whole lot of my life like that. And I think we do that as like a sense of safety, you know, to not have to feel some of the stuff that we haven’t tapped into or dealt with. So the hope for the book really is that what people take away is that they stop and they slow down and they sit with themselves and they’re compassionate with themselves, and they realize that whatever it is that they’re feeling and going through, number one, it’s normal. And number two, it’s okay.

Alison: So do you recommend that people sit back and stop? I think I do the eating thing, I do the binge watching TV and I know I’ll be sitting there watching 5000 episodes of runway, whatever. You know what I mean?

Shari Alyse: Project runway? Yeah. I’m a fan too

Alison: One more dress. I could lose my mind, but I’m, like, stuck in it. What would you suggest to me? Just to stop? But that’s hard sometimes.

Shari Alyse: It is hard. But I think what’s really hard about it is almost the idea of, of the fear around what will happen. But once we actually stop and slow down. Yeah, there’s some challenges in there, but there’s so much. There’s so much like good and beauty and love. There’s life there, and we run from it for so long that we more fear what’s there than what’s actually there. Um, and so what I would say is, you know, there is healthy, I mean, there’s nothing wrong with watching TV. I don’t want people to think like, because they’re watching multiple episodes. It could just be a really good show, you know?

Shari Alyse: I know how to have fun. I binge myself. But it’s when, you know, when you’re avoiding something, you know, like there comes to a certain point, even for me, like every night at a certain time when things really start to slow down, like, I want to go and get a snack. And I’m not hungry. I just know it’s a sense of avoiding. And so. We could start easy. We could just in those moments that we’re feeling it, just stop and take a breath.

Shari Alyse: One of the most connecting things that I do for myself, and I do it every morning just to make sure that I’m there, is I put my hands on my heart and I just check in and say, how are you doing?

Jean: I love that, that’s it.

Shari Alyse: How are you? And so maybe in those moments at night when you want to watch another episode, maybe it’s just taking a breath. What do you need? How are you? And listening

Alison: That’s beautiful. Thank you. That’s what I’m going to do I’ll try that and I’m going to email you okay.

Shari Alyse: Okay! Then you can watch another episode if you’re called to!

Alison: Thank you. Also talk about being guided, which I am personally fascinated by because I think there are signs and moments that we all bring to each other. Can you talk a little bit about your thoughts on being guided and being open to it?

Shari Alyse: Oh yeah, I think we’re consistently and constantly guided. But it’s that thing about noticing… Of slowing down enough, and I will never profess that I know it all, or that I do everything perfectly, because I know that there are times that I don’t want to listen. There are times like it just seems it’s like, oh my God, I know I’m going to be told to do this harder thing or what seems harder. Uh, but I always feel like… An example – when I, when I… it was quite some time ago. I, for the first time, was really dealing with what happened to me at seven years old, I was taking a shower on my way to work, and all of a sudden the flashbacks came back. I’d always thought about what had happened. I never forgot, but it was always from this distant perspective, looking down like it’s a movie. But the first time I was in the movie and I broke down and I had to go. I was waitressing at the time and I had to go to work that day, and I remember I called my manager just bawling and was like, I can’t come in.

Shari Alyse: I’m having these memories. And she said, go take the time off, take whatever you need. And I went, I was driving and I went back home. Anyway, I turned the computer on and there was at the time, you know, pop up signs. There was a pop up ad to go to Sedona for Sedona, Arizona. I wasn’t open to signs… Like that was a literal sign for me now, I could have just ignored it and been closed it out. But there was that instant knowing that I needed to go there, and it was about trusting in that. And through that experience, I ended up going to Sedona and having never been there, didn’t know what was there except they talked about it was a really spiritual healing place. And in there I met my seven year old self on the top of one of those vortexes on the way out, which is another whole story, you know, in my book. And that changed the trajectory of my healing. Yeah. And if I didn’t trust that feeling inside that said go. I would have missed all that.

Alison: That gives me chills.

Jean: It is so important to trust and lean into those signposts.

Shari Alyse: Yeah. And it’s a deep knowing. And we can feel when we don’t listen like I’m sure we can look back. And there’s times where your gut, your intuition told you to follow something and you didn’t. And then the times when you do and there’s almost like… I, I was not connected to my body, you know, after what had happened, I very much disconnected. And the more that I have spent time with myself and really, you know, the self-awareness journey, I guess I can feel when things are an easy yes, I can feel the expansion. I could feel the openness and I could feel when something’s not quite right, a constriction. And I’ve learned to pay attention to that. Um, those are my physical signs to either do something or not do something.

Jean: I think your intuition does increase. It heightens. It gets more fine tuned when you do this healing work that you do. Because like you said, you’re coming back into the body that you separated from. So it makes sense that the more you tell your story that you accept it. You talk a lot about acceptance in your beautiful book. You’re sort of trusting the place of your body for your soul to be, and you become more your those six senses, the those spiritual gifts become online more.

Shari Alyse: Absolutely heightened awareness. I just said it the other day to my partner. I was like, I feel like I have this gift that I could go into a room and immediately know what everybody needs.

Shari Alyse: And by needs, I mean, you know, like what kind of energy they need from me where they’re at. And I realized that I learned that or became aware of that because of what happened to me at a young age, or the awareness of having to sense how everybody was, what the energy was in the room, a sense of safety. And also, you know, my parents went through a really terrible divorce, and I almost sometimes feel like that was more traumatic than the abuse, to be honest. Um, always my mom was always unhappy and you just never knew what the mood was in the house. And so I was always the entertainer and the peacemaker. So I was very sensitive to energies. Um, and so before it was all just coincidental. Now I use it as a superpower because now I know, like, I know how to make a room feel like that, things that they need. So I guess that’s there is that that awareness of our awareness.

Alison: You know, we saw we talked to Lorna Byrne and she speaks to angels. And it’s very much aligned with what you’re saying in that when you have a feeling or an idea…She used the example, give someone flowers. If you get them, do it. And so you’re saying it can be as simple as feeling the energy from someone. You don’t have to run out and buy something. And that’s beautiful because that means we could do that on a checkout line.

Shari Alyse: Oh, absolutely. It’s one of my favorite things to do is, well, first, to just gift people with a smile, like to just really look at somebody because we’re always all just so busy and in our own worlds. And back to waiting tables. I remember when I first moved to LA and I was working in Brentwood, and, uh, I was always just happy and “happy” I use because I didn’t understand it was joy at the time, because joy to me is full expression of ourselves. And I was always just me… That came easily to me. Um, but anyway, I walked up to this woman and she was like, what do you have to be so happy about? And from that moment on, there was this feeling of like, wow, not everybody… I knew that people were unhappy, but it became this thing where I really just wanted to take someone who didn’t give off the best energy and have them walk away feeling better. And I feel like I can do that. And I love doing that. And I feel like that’s a gift that I’ve been given that I love to give.

Alison: I think those type of moments are changing the world and keeping us afloat in times that seem very challenging.

Shari Alyse: And they’re simple and it’s simple to do.

Alison: I just want to read a quote that I think is my favorite quote of yours. “What if surrender has nothing to do with giving up something, but rather receiving everything?” And I pasted that on my wall… surrender…I’ve been taught it has a lot of meanings, but this meaning it’s not, you’re not defeated. You are powerful. Because it seems like, you know, dichotomy. Could you talk about that a little?

Shari Alyse: Yeah. So for years I held on. I tried to control and manage everybody and everything, to keep what I felt was safety for myself and what I realized that in doing that and holding on that I kept away so much. I blocked off so much, so many blessings, so many miracles, so many opportunities. And when I finally realized that all of this holding on, all it was doing was causing constriction and stress and anxiety and all of that within. And I loosened up. What happened is when I loosened and I surrendered, I then opened myself now to receive everything I had been blocking.

Alison: Is surrender the same as being vulnerable?

Shari Alyse: I think there’s a vulnerability in surrender. I don’t know if it’s the same, I think that when we surrender and we let go, it feels like we leave ourselves in this space of vulnerability. But I believe that it’s easy for us to be vulnerable when we trust ourselves.

Shari Alyse: And I think that’s what it’s always been for me, is learning to trust myself. And that took a lot of hindsight to look at how no matter what it was that I have gone through, that I always ended up okay. Yeah. So many of the things that I thought were really bad or that I would never get through, I became better because of.

Shari Alyse: And so you learn to trust that. And in that trusting I’m like, okay, it’s okay to put myself out there because I’ve got me.

Alison: Oh that’s great. My mind is equating vulnerability and surrender. Because surrender is like taking a leap and trusting also. Why do you think or do you think trust is hard these days? Or why do you think? Or maybe you don’t think that? What do you think about it?

Shari Alyse: Oh no, I think trust in are you asking for of ourselves or just anything.

Speaker4: Any trust…Because right now it almost feels a little bit like people are wary.

Shari Alyse: I think that’s I think that’s honestly, I mean, and I’m of course not a psychologist or psychiatrist, but I think that’s all trauma related trauma response. Um, you know, I think everybody we all hold on to our beliefs and our perspectives and everything as a sense of, you know, safety again for all of us. And nobody wants to be heard. And we’ve all been hurt at some point, whether it’s let down by somebody or something. And I think the more that we have access to and see and the media and what they present to us, there is going to naturally be a weariness and a mistrust. Right? But work like the two of you do with Inside Wink and what I hope and am doing and presenting the good in the world. That’s where I think we begin to shift. And people don’t have to be so weary and mistrusting, right?

Jean: Yeah, I love that.

Alison: Me too.

Jean: I have one of many quotes to read from your book that I love. Okay, so you write. “When I gave myself permission to show up imperfectly, I found I could show up anywhere.”

Shari Alyse: So it was the most freeing thing ever. That’s like like suffering and honestly. And what I related to is like, so I have hair loss and I wear wigs. And I held on to that secret for so long because I was afraid that people were going to not love me or they were going to judge me. And the one thing that I held on to at some points when I didn’t believe in myself or love myself as much… I had to hold on to standards of beauty. I remember being at work, so I had hid the fact that I wore like first clip ins, and then I tried extensions and that just ripped the hair and then wigs. I hid it for probably like four years, and that’s a long time to hide it, especially when people just like go in to give you a hug and they’re hugging you and they’re pulling your hair back and you’re trying to keep it on… It’s a lot. It’s a lot. And I remember one night I was waiting tables and I was in the side station, and my manager goes into just take like a piece of lint off my hair. And I thought he was going to take my hair when he did that. I jumped so high and he was like, Shari, like, what is wrong with you? And I didn’t know what to say.

Shari Alyse: And the first thing that came out of my mouth was, I thought you were going to hit me. And he looked at me like I was insane, like, why would I hit you? And I share that because it was in that moment that I realized that I couldn’t go on, like hiding this thing that really didn’t make me who I was. And so that night, at that time, that’s when blogs were really, like, really big before, you know, social media. And I had one. Anyway, I decided I was going to write all of my followers and share the truth about my hair loss. And that night I wrote it, and I scheduled it to go out the next morning. And I remember I was so terrified. I ended up taking like a Tylenol PM so I could just go to sleep and not delete the blog. I woke up the next morning with a pit in my stomach, and I awoke to over 100 messages emails back from women, mostly thanking me for my honesty. And that was another time in my life when I realized that telling the truth helps and heals people and this idea of trying to be perfect and holding it all together is so much work and people so much appreciate when we are real.

Shari Alyse: And for me, you know, this perfection was always trying to do the right thing. I’m not perfect at being imperfect or, um, but it’s just so much easier. It’s just so much easier. And you end up with the people that ultimately love you and the people that you want to be around.

Alison: Right. And everyone is really connected in that.

Speaker4: Yes.

Alison: Like, you know, I did want to talk about. “Good morning, Joy”. Your show. Yes. Jean was on it and it, you know. So then that gets you hooked. Once I see that, I’m like, oh, watch more. It’s so wonderful. Can you tell our listeners how listeners how they can see it? And, um, what what have you enjoyed? Who have you enjoyed interviewing? Of course, besides Jean?

Shari Alyse: Well, Jean has been one of my favorites. So that is and I’m not just saying that because I’m on your show. Uh, because there was just I walked away from that show saying like these are more of the conversations that I want to have, right? Because there was so real and present and your soul was open. So thank you for that. But the show really is it’s I’m trying to put or I am putting something positive out in the world, in the media that really focuses on the good in the world. And that’s good, heartfelt, real conversations. It’s sharing the good news stories in the world, and it’s just having some fun. And, you know, we just completed for the first season and they can it’s it shows on Apple TV, binge networks, connect TV. The probably the easiest to do would be go to my YouTube channel is the easiest to find it. Or they could do. Good morning Joy Show.com.

Alison: Do you have a motto that you live by? Something that or like maybe words of wisdom that someone said that you could share?

Shari Alyse: I do actually, and it’s by Mother Teresa.

Jean: Oh, I love that.

Shari Alyse: And I heard it when I was much younger. And it’s what I live my life by, which is let nobody ever leave you without feeling better and happier.

Jean: Oh my gosh, Shari, that is so you. You are the the demonstration of that quote. And I wanted to say I loved being on your show. You made me feel so relaxed. And it was very easy to open up. And I left when Alison and I drove home. I just thought… Wow. Uh, Sherry is an answered prayer. Your heart and your intention are so aligned with with joy and goodness. So, um, we’re going to do whatever we can to champion your show.

Alison: I love that I and and I think, um, I think what you said, these are more conversations that I want to have. And it’s great that you’re on TV and it’s great that we’re doing a podcast. But I’ve had very meaningful conversations with people I didn’t know, like at the dry cleaner. Do you know? It’s really just being kind, I think. And you are ultimately that. And so we really appreciate you and I hope everybody reads your book and I hope everybody watches your show.

Shari Alyse: Thank you so much. Thank you both so much. It has been a literal joy, uh, to connect with both and for having me on your show.

Alison: You’re fantastic. We are so.

Jean: Grateful. And we’re always here for you.

Alison: Yeah. And if you want to ever talk to us again, just say, let’s do it again, and we’ll do it again.

Shari Alyse: Let’s do it again. Okay?

Alison: Okay. We’ll call you in 20 minutes. Okay. Have a great day.

Shari Alyse: Thank you so much. Bye bye.

Alison: That was a very fun interview for me.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: Right. And I, I love the topics we touched on and when we gave her our favorite quotes.

Jean: Yes.

Alison: And she really sort of illuminated what she was talking about. I mean, the idea of having to be in control and surrender, I think, speaks to so many people these days, don’t you?

Jean: Oh, absolutely. And I also love that all throughout the book, she somehow comes back to connecting with yourself. And, um, I think that is so important to really living a life of joy is connecting to yourself and that the joy is within us. It’s not an external event. Right? That to her is happiness. Which I totally agree.

Alison: I totally agree too. And I love at the end of every chapter she goes, “Pssst, go easy on yourself”. Yes, almost every chapter…Because there was some chapters, I thought, oh, I’ll never be able to do that, or oh, I have so much to work on. And then this end of just like, go Easy on Yourself was such a sweet remembrance for me.

Jean: And for me too. And so I just invite whoever is listening right now. If there’s something that is really bothering you or you’re it’s like a a thorn in your side, just go easy on yourself.

Alison: And you were you were on her show. She has this great TV show I think it’s on her YouTube channel. Shari Alyse. And, um, the show is called the show is called Good Morning Joy. I always want to say THE morning joy, but it’s Good Morning, Joy.

Jean: I wanted to make sure. And she could not have made it more beautiful for me to be there and talk about grieving and just my process through that. But she’s just. I just really love her. I could have talked to her all afternoon.

Alison: And I love that we’re introducing people like this to ourselves and our listeners

Jean: I didn’t know about Shari. And, uh, she is a woman on a mission.

Alison: Yes. That’s right.

Jean: God bless her.

Alison: And we all need to, like, embrace the women and the people that we know that are passionate about good.

Jean: Yes. Right.

Alison: That’s it. We got to go make a dessert now.

Jean: Okay, let’s do it.

Alison: Goodbye.

Alison: Hello, Jeannie.

Jean: Hi, Alison.

Alison: Today we are talking to someone, um, that talks about anxiety in such a different way than I have heard before.

Jean: Same with me. He is a champion for not getting rid of anxiety, but actually transforming the way you feel about anxiety and not making it like an enemy, but more as a calling card to empower yourself.

Alison: That’s right. His name is David Rosmarin and his his book is called,Thriving with Anxiety”, which is a great title, “Nine Tools to Make Your Anxiety Work for You.” And while I was reading it, I was reading it like, at auditions and in waiting rooms, and I was stopped so many times. Like, what’s that book about? Because just the title, Thriving with Anxiety, um, is, I think, really touching people.

Jean: Absolutely. And it also kind of lets the air out of the shame around having anxious thoughts or, um, you know, having anxiety. Right? Just he’s like, lighten up on yourself. And he gives so many great ways to, to actually transform your anxiety.

Alison: And he’s very intellectual. He is right? He is the founder of the center for anxiety, and he’s also a Harvard associate professor, and he’s very intellectual. And yet, he has this very spiritual side and they really complement each other.

Jean: Yes. And I also love that he mentions his wife. Yeah. And the emotional connection he has with her… That that was beautiful.

Alison: He’s great. So here’s the interview with David.

David: I am so sorry… Oh, I did not mean to make you anxious.

Alison: I’m late and I’m driving here like, this is a great way to ….

David: I had, I had tech difficulties for the last five minutes. Perfect. Yeah.

Alison: I just got here and I’m like, this is a great way to start a talk on anxiety.

Jean: 100%.

David: I’m honored to meet you. Thank you. Thank you for making the time. I’ve been really looking forward to this conversation for a while.

Jean: Yeah, same. It’s great to meet you, David. I’m Jean …

Alison: And I’m Alison. Hi. So how did you deal with your stress with technical difficulties?

David: Let me tell you, I definitely got my own anxiety, and I use a lot of the strategies in my book on a regular basis.

Alison: That’s I think that makes me feel much better.

Jean: All of us, I, think it’s great to know that people that appear to really have their act together have anxiety. You know, it’s like what goes on behind the play…what goes on back stage..

David: Whats’s happening in the kitchen?

Speaker1: What’s happening in the kitchen while Thanksgiving dinner is being prepared.

David: All, oh my God, it’s all coming out in like beautiful platters and what is happening in the kitchen? haha

Alison: Right. What inspired you? Was it was it your work or was it your own anxiety that inspired you to write this?

David: All of the above.

Speaker1: Yeah.

David: All of the above. Um, I learned a lot from my patients and how incredibly high functioning many of them are, how amazingly talented they are. And I was always taught to see to see anxiety as a limitation, as a disorder, as a disease, even at some point, I’m like, you know what? Something’s not adding up here. These people are so high functioning. Yes, they have anxiety. And furthermore, when they use it in the right way, it can actually enhance their lives. Like we need a different lens and a different relationship with this ubiquitous emotion that every human being experiences. How many people have you met in the last month who had no anxiety, right?

Alison: No one, no one.

David: And if you did, if you did, they’re either super narcissistic, right? Or they have a drug problem or they are comatose or dead.

Jean: You know, especially nowadays, And your book is so relevant for… Right now what everyone is going through. Um, can you start off by telling. Allison and me and our listeners, what’s the difference between stress, fear and anxiety? Is there a difference? Are they all cousins? But what’s your take?

David: Yes, absolutely. Happy to start there. And it’s in my book. Um, so, uh, let’s start with fear. Fear is a healthy response that the nervous system has, um, in order to deal with an actual tangible threat. So if your body is threatened by something which is really in front of you, uh, an amazing process involving adrenaline. Will, uh, adrenaline, the adrenal glands will fire and release adrenaline into your blood system, and within nanoseconds, your body will transform. Into the fight or flight system. Also known as the fight, flight or freeze system, which can protect you and prevent you from experiencing harm or physical harm as a result of that threat. And that is a healthy, adaptive, positive thing that hopefully you don’t have to rely on too much in your life. But the couple of times that you might have to rely on it… it’s a gift. I think I think of it as a spiritual gift given my background. I will add. but it’s an amazing thing, that’s adaptive and healthy and and keeps us preserved and safe. Anxiety is the same thing, the same heart palpitations, the same secretion of adrenaline. In fact, the same, uh, breathing that increases the tachycardia, increased the breathing rate, the same muscle tension, the same stomach upset, all of the same things occur, those physiological changes with the fight or flight. But there’s one small difference. Any guesses?

Alison: It doesn’t go away.

David: Wow. That’s interesting. It depends on what you do with your anxiety and how you relate to it. Um, anxiety can be perpetual. That’s true. Um, but there’s a there’s a different, there’s another difference.

Alison: Um. I know, I know it somewhere. I know I read it in the beginning.

David: Are you feeling anxious that I’m asking? HAHA

Alison: Yes, yes, I feel like. Oh, where are my notes?

David: The teacher, you know, calling on the pupil. And he’s like, uh, I’m supposed to know this?

Alison: Exactly. Right.

Jean: Something about a smoke alarm.

David: Yeah, that’s true actually. Yeah. That’s right. Ask you a question like, what’s the worst case scenario if you don’t know the answer? Like, what’s really going to happen to you? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Right. That’s anxiety. Fear. If you get it wrong, something’s going to happen. Like if you don’t step out of the way of that bus which is careening towards you at 60 miles an hour, it’s not going to be good. If you unless you activate your flight system, you’re, you’re you’re flat. Now, when it comes to anxiety, there’s no real tangible fear. So you have that adrenal response. But actually if you stop and think about it, you’re like, whoa, this is a false alarm. There’s no real fire in the kitchen. There’s just smoke coming up from onions burning. Right?

Alison: And stress is also different.

David: It’s a little different. This is the cousin. So fear and anxiety are actually very close cousins. I would call them siblings. Mhm. But the one is a real alarm and the other is a false alarm. And by the way the false alarm doesn’t mean it’s bad. It’s still intact. It means your neural system is intact. It means you have a fight or flight system. It means you’re aware of your surroundings. You’re not oblivious. Right, right, right. So there’s advantages of having a smoke alarm that goes off too quickly, that what’s really deadly is the smoke alarm that doesn’t go off at all. Right, exactly. So that’s not what we’re talking about here. So anxiety and fear are I would call them siblings, to use your analogy from before the cousin is stress. Stress is when your demands are greater than your resources. Right? I have too much money to pay. I don’t have enough money. I have too much. Too many things to do. I don’t have enough time, emotional resources. That person is coming to my home and I really can’t take it right now, right? Yeah. Don’t have the wherewithal to do so. We need to reduce the demands and increase the resources right back to a place of equilibrium.

Alison: So me being late is really stress. I’m supposed to be somewhere I’m not there.

David: Correct. But there could be an anxiety piece as well. Which is oh no, what’s this going to do? Like it might also trigger an anxiety response.

Alison: Right. And I think that for me is what the heck’s wrong with me. Oh no. Now you’re speaking with me. Why why couldn’t I have this be straight? So I see. So the stress was, you’re late. But then my mind goes to this, you know, catastrophe place. I’m. I’m losing my mind.

David: Yes. And something’s wrong with me is core. That’s the anxiety spiral. I mean, that’s where when we feel anxious, we start to judge ourselves. We start to go down this tube. I mean, this is why we have an anxiety epidemic today, you know, right. Start to feel anxious and then we upset about it.

Alison: I think it’s interesting that you also differentiate from worry.

David: That’s true.

Alison: And I thought that was so interesting because I thought worry was just anxiety. But you but you’re explaining that it’s some it’s not really. Even the way I understood it was that it’s not really even getting into the weeds. It’s just this sort of level. Right? Like you’re not really ever dealing with anything, like you’re just this constant. Like pebble in your shoe, right?

David: When I learned this concept about worry, it blew my mind. It changed my life, and I have shared it with how many hundreds of patients with similar, similar results. So the thing about worry is that it is a cognitive process, which is really a behavior. It’s something that we do, to cope with anxiety and actually keep it away. Yeah.

Jean: Mhm.

Speaker2: When you’re feeling anxious the number one thing that people will do is avoid, right? Yeah, I’m anxious about the height. So I’m not going to go in the elevator. I’m not going to fly. I’m uh that person makes me uncomfortable. So I’ll block them on my WhatsApp or whatever.

Alison: Right, right right right.don’t want to think about the fact that I’m not in control. So I worry at a very superficial level about just 1 or 2 things, as opposed to really going into the depths of it.

Alison: Right, right.

David: Worry is like a. We ask these very superficial what if questions like what if? I run out of money? What if I run out of money? But you don’t actually answer that question, right? What would it be like? What would actually happen? Mhm. And embrace the true uncertainty of like. There’s not a whole lot. There are certain things we can’t control. That’s usually what worries stops us from moving into. It’s a cognitive process which actually prevents us from experiencing anxiety.

Alison: Wow. Yeah, yeah. And that was my that was my mom, you know. And I loved her. And but I know that there was a source of, you know, my father was in a very risky job, and it was a constant like undercurrent. It was very interesting when I read that.

David: What did he do?

Alison: He was a he was an investigative reporter. So he would go to these countries and you wouldn’t hear from him for weeks or months, and it would be dangerous. And he’d leave. And it was just me and my mom. I’m an only child. So it was very interesting to be with that. And then, you know, so when I was reading it, I thought to myself, wow, that is really, you know…

David: You’ve had a lot of uncertainty to embrace with being alone, being terrified about what’s going on with her husband, not being having any agency over it because there’s nothing she could do. Right. And she’s alone with her daughter and or, you know, in different country and… And then having probably having to keep it together… So, the worry is a perfect process to just keep it at a superficial level without actually losing it. But losing it is in some ways a good thing, because once you actually embrace the anxiety and the uncertainty. It just scales us down to become so much more raw and in tune with ourselves, with others. And that’s where it poses us for growth. It’s not fun, but it’s a lot more emotionally, potentially a lot more emotionally healthy. Yeah.

Jean: I love that your take on anxiety, David, it really makes you feel… You come   away from your book, I came away feeling very empowered. You know, you’re really offering… (Oh, sorry. Because we’re like. Loosey goosey, loosey goosey. That was my daughter. Sorry.) You’re coming away, I came away from from your book feeling empowered. I’m already someone that does a lot of spiritual work. So this just, um, gave more credence to looking at things a different way and not shaming yourself. That’s such a big thing. Is, um, shaming ourselves when we feel out of control or, um, and not knowing the answer. And I read this quote the other day that said. We’re so conditioned to needing to know the answer, because we’ve been validated with love. So it makes sense when we’re in school and we know the answer, we get praise and feel good.

David: Yes,

Jean: And when you don’t know the answer, you kind of sit there and you’re like, mmm, you know?

David: Like at the beginning of our conversation.

Jean: Right..Can you talk a little bit about um, you talk a lot about connection and I don’t want to lose all our time, but talk about connection that you talk about self connection, Other connectio,. Spiritual connection.

David: Yeah. That’s what it’s all about I mean, you know, what are we here to do on this, on this earth with however many, you know, years we’re blessed with? We’re here to create a life that’s meaningful and connected to others, to have a self compassion and connection with ourselves and for those who seek something spiritual, too, I think that can be a great source of meaning and purpose and solace and and wonder and awe and and love and all sorts of other good things. Um, anxiety can help facilitate all of the above. I really believe it. I think it’s part of our. You know, ancestral heritage, which is, you know, optimizes our ability if we use it in the right way and if we frame it in the right way. If you run away from anxiety,A- it’s going to get worse and B- we’ll never find these opportunities. But. When you feel overwhelmed, that’s the time to, recalibrate to rebalance. To look at your priorities. To become more self compassionate. To understand that you have your limitations and not to judge yourself, not to get upset about it. You know. And it’s usually not what we do. Usually when I feel anxious, I’m like, how can you feel that way? You’re so weak. What’s wrong with you? I have to push myself harder. I don’t want to feel these feelings. I’m going to squeeze them out by working even more, by taking on another project and showing that I’m in control. And like all of those strategies that almost everyone takes, unless you’ve been taught otherwise, are exactly 180 degrees in the wrong direction.

Alison: And so. When you talk about having more compassion because you have experienced anxiety, could you go into that a little bit? Because I thought that was really, really interesting about how you’re using it as a, you know, a superpower for good? You know?..

David: I you know, I had some experiences recently, not even recent, the last couple of years of meeting some very well established, well known, um, wealthy, successful business folks, people in industry, people in, um, in entertainment, people in athletics. You know, in my practice, there’s some higher profile folks who have come my way and the way of my practice. And, you know, some of them, they literally have the car service waiting outside, you know, on, on, on the street and the, the whole nine yards and the private chef and everything. And going through a mental health crisis for them was so jarring, so shocking, so upsetting, because everything else in their life is going beautifully. Mm. They’re flourishing in their careers, but then emotionally, they’re really struggling. But through that process, they actually learn to, like, become more accepting of themselves, more accepting of their loved ones, more accepting of their own children. And it softened them. It made them more human. More. Relatable, more connected, literally more connected. It’s it’s a humbling process to experience the throes of anxiety, the panic. Yeah. The struggle. But that’s part of many times what we need to remind us of our limitations, which is good. We need to embrace that and to lean into it as opposed to leaning away.

Jean: .. That reminds me of when. My late husband Alex would say, “You know, Jeannie, before I met you and we had the the children, my life was just ordered . I was always in control. It was just me.” And he went on to say, “you and the children have introduced a new level of fear in my life that I never knew existed.” Except he had a dog. And he said, ” A deeper connection. A deeper connection with my mother, to you and the children, with other people.” Oh, yeah- when you have children, Oh my God you know, he said it brought a whole new level of connection. Yeah, Having a family will do that.

David: Yes, Because it actually means something. Like, what do you get anxious about? You get anxious about stuff that really means something to you.

Speaker2: Right? What else do you care? Why else do you feel anxious. Unless it’s something you really care about? So part of our anxiety shows that we’re actually invested in something other than ourselves- leaning into that, it’s hard, but it sounds like that’s what you did in your family.

Alison: And you talk about converting anxiety into love.

David: And oh yeah.

Alison: That made me cry a little. We have a family member with OCD. Yeah, very, um, a very interesting journey to to witness that. And just the love that’s come from that experience is really, um. So I was hoping you could just talk about that a little bit, because I think you don’t really hear that a lot, you know?

David: So this is something I did not get from my cognitive and dialectical behavior therapy training. I got this from the exposure and experiences I got with emotionally focused therapy. In terms of couples, it’s a couple a way of treating, and it’s based on the work of John Bowlby, who was an attachment theory. He actually started attachment theory. The concept of attachment theory is that life is for love, that people are born in order to have connection, in order to have bonds, especially bonds with other people. And those bonds, those love bonds, those connections are what make our life worthwhile. They make us. They make us tick. Um, legend has it that Bowlby was going to call his theory the Theory of love, but he was in he was a British psychiatrist in the first half of the first half of the 20th century. So he thought he would have been laughed out of the Academy, which probably would have happened. So he called it attachment theory instead. And it’s stuck ever since. Anyhow, part of attachment theory is that secure attachment is when – I care about you, and I’m anxious when you’re not there, but I know that you’re there for me, and I can show you that I need you, and you will be there for me. And that occurs both in romantic relationships and also with parent child relationships, also with friends. I mean, there’s other ways that. But this is the core of it. Will you be there for me when I need you? In other words, to the extent that I can be vulnerable, show you that I care about you and that I need you, be anxious, actually expose my anxiety, scale back the facade.. as you were talking about right at the beginning, what we were talking about right at the beginning, right? Go into the kitchen, see the mess, and have you accept me and be there for me. That’s going to make us extremely close, right?

Jean: Yeah. And you articulate that beautifully, or you write about it beautifully in your book about being vulnerable.

David: This is something I’ve learned from Being married for 23 years. My wife taught me this one.

Alison: I love that. Um, I wanted to also talk about the disconnection spiral. I think, I have watched people go through that, do you know. And I just want, I would I’d like you just to kind of sum that up for our listeners, because I’ve seen it.

David: Yeah. So this happens at the level of inter intrapersonal. So our relationship with ourselves.   When people start to feel anxious, what’s their response to that today? I’ll ask you, a typical person… they start to feel anxious, and then what’s their meta response, so to speak?

Alison: I think, I think people get angry. I think I’ve seen people get angry. I just watched it about a parking spot at Trader Joe’s, uh, two days ago.   I just was like, this is what he’s talking about, you know? It just escalated and it got worse and worse and worse. And then, the one person got in the car and just started banging the wheel by themselves. And I was just thinking, they’re going down and it’s about a parking space of Trader Joe’s. And it went really far down. So that’s what I think, that people get like very angry sometimes.

David: I’m just realizing now you meant the disconnection spiral, which is our relationship with others, not our anxiety spiral, which is our relationship with ourselves?

Alison: Right?

David: Okay, so I’m going to pivot. Um, yeah, that’s exactly it. I’m getting judgmental of the other person. They’re making me feel anxious. I don’t want to show them I feel anxious, so I show them I feel angry. I covered it up. You’re the wrong person. It’s not, I need you, I really need the space because I’m running late today. Right? I’m having a terrible day. I really need the parking spot. It’s raining. I’m here with my kid… whatever. For whatever reason, it made that person very anxious. But they don’t want to show that. So they’re on their horn, right? Cursing, banging, having a temper tantrum as opposed to, like… I really could use that space. Is there any way that we can work this out? Right?

Alison: And is that what you think we should all be doing? So you’re thinking that, okay, I’m just going to use the Trader Joe’s spot thing. So two people are pulling into the same spot and I’ve seen people go hysterical. So you’re suggesting either to- somehow do inner work to pull away and know there’ll be another spot. Or are you suggesting that we go up and say, hey, I thought I was here first? I’m late. Would it be okay? Like, what do you what do you do in that minute?

David: Good question. You know, probably for a parking spot. (interruption on David’s screen – I Keep getting these, you know, hand gestures. Kind of funny. That keeps happening. I gotta keep my hands down.) So it depends on the circumstance. You know, probably for a parking spot, it might not be worth it. And some inner work might be more worthwhile, calling a loved one. You know, you can be vulnerable. It doesn’t have to be with everyone. With a stranger. It could be with a loved one. Calling someone up saying, I’m so mad. Someone just took my parking spot and now I’m running late. And now I have to do this and I’m schlepping my groceries and I’m just having such an awful, terrible day, you know? I wanted to let you know because you’re my friend, so that could be a way of managing it interpersonally, which is not what the person in front of you. Um, but I’m thinking on an airplane, that’s probably a better example. It happened to me the other day. I’m sitting in a plane and the lady behind me was having a fight with the person to my right, I mean to my left. And I’m like, she was so irate and so angry. And I think in that kind of circumstance, she could have said like he did something. He spilled a drink and it went on her stuff and he didn’t realize. It wasn’t a jerk move, but it was an accident. But she got so nervous, I think that her space was invaded, or she perceived it that way, that she got really angry and started a fight with the guy. And I think she could have said to him, like, you know, I wish you could have said something to me or, hey, you messed up my stuff because you spilled my drink. I’m letting you know. Instead, she’s like, you’re an ahole. And like, the whole plane just was very uncomfortable. Yeah. So that there could be certain circumstances where you do have to say it’s good to say something, but showing your emotions, as opposed to covering them up with anger would be the approach there.

Alison: Why don’t we do that? Like what problem with what’s the problem with that? Like what happened?

David: It’s hard to show other people that you need them.

Jean: Oh. Wow. It’s hard to show other people that you need them because…

David: It gives them a lot of power.

Jean: and goes back to being vulnerable. Vulnerable has got a connotation of weakness, when it’s really not.

David: It’s not a weakness, it’s the reality. And the reality is actually strong when you embrace it. Why do I care what this person’s doing and sit in front of me? It’s because I’m a human being and they’re a human being, and what they do affects your choices affect me.

Jean: But I think that is changing. David. I think the connotation around being vulnerable is slowly changing.

David: Let’s see what happens later in this election year. Before you bring that up, before you count your chickens. Yeah. So let’s see what hatches. I, I am not anticipating a lot more vulnerability this year, but hey, I’ve been wrong before. I’d be delighted to be wrong now.

Jean: Well, we can start in our family units.

David: That’s worthwhile.

Jean: Right? You know, and then hopefully we be the change we wish to see.

Alison: What do you think started that, though? Where did this all begin of this idea that, this is your belief, this is my belief… And so I just don’t like you. I don’t think it used to be like that.

David: John Wayne, that’s the example I brought John Wayne, who staunch Republican, and when Kennedy was, uh, elected, he said, well, I didn’t vote for him. But he’s my president and I hope he does a good job. Right. You know, when’s the last time you heard someone say anything even close to to that? You know, it’s…. And I think it does have to do with anxiety. I think it makes us so scared that other people have power and they have control, and we don’t have control over them. And we are at vulnerable because of that. And we don’t want to face that reality. It’s so scary. But I think accepting it and expressing it ironically gives us as much control as we can have, and certainly brings us more into having into the sphere of humanity and having relationships.

Alison: And I thought it was really interesting the way you discuss uncertainty, because, you know, I have kids in my 20s, Jean has kids in the in their 30s, and uh, my kids are, um, shocked when, they don’t know something. When they don’t have an answer…the idea of uncertainty for this generation. And I think you even talk about the fact that there were so many generations where they lived with uncertainty in a daily way that they were able to cope with it.

David: Yeah. You know, here’s an interesting… Here’s my take on it. I think it’s interesting. I guess I think it’s interesting for what it’s worth. My sense is that we have actually a lot less uncertainty today. And because of that, we can’t tolerate uncertainty as much. Right? During the 20th century, people did not know what was flying. Two world wars. It was the Korean War, Vietnam. There’s the Cuban missile crisis. There was the Cold War. I mean, there was literally the world was at the brink of destruction at several key political points along the way. There’s no question. And I mean, since the breakup of the Soviet Union, things have been relative. I’m not saying there has been no war. I’m not saying there’s no famine. I’m not saying there’s no, uh, social inequities. I’m not saying there’s no socioeconomic inequities. Racial disparities 100%. There are definitely social issues, pressing social issues that must be addressed. And I’m not invalidating that, however. If you compare that to the level of uncertainty, that was the level of economic uncertainty. I mean, in throughout the 20th century, it’s not even a contest. It’s not even a contest. But we have become, I think it’s because we all have these amazing devices that can go to the moon and back in 10 seconds, You can call anyone on planet. And we can we have we have air travel. You know, how many adults do you know have never been on an airplane? Right. Right. How many? How many people do you know who’ve never been to a physician? Ever? So because of that, we’ve become used to a level of certainty, apparant certainty in life that. It’s not real.

Jean: I love that you you say in your book we’re we’re at a point now where we have to be uncomfortable with Uncertainty. Um, no. We have to be comfortable with uncertainty.

David: And this, I think, I think you’ll appreciate from a spiritual perspective. Is that so bad that a human being doesn’t know or control everything?

Jean: Right. That’s, you know, like the deep, the deep surrender the humility of true surrender into the Universe, God, whatever. You know, like whatever…

David: Whatever your language is. Yeah.

Jean: And David, you also talk about being a perfectionist. That adds to perfectionism.

Speaker2: Yeah, that’s another cousin of anxiety. Yes. Um, where people are focused on the small details to maintain an illusion of control over life. Where, Who are you kidding? I mean, how much can you really control? Um, but it’s something that we, many people do.

Alison: And I thought, when you talk about the, um, what would you really love to do? I don’t think we ask ourselves that enough these days. Like where, what, where is your love or your passion really taking you? And did you find in your life that you followed what you what you loved?

David: Yes and no. There are certain things that I pursued that I only realized many years later that weren’t really something that I wanted to do, truly did. And when I struggled with those issues, that was a, you know, sort of the anxiety catching up with me that I should have faced a long time ago and really focused on just what I want, which what I’m really good at. Um…

Alison: What you’re doing now?

David: I’m trying to. I’m getting there… You know, I’m I’m trying to take my own advice on that. Um, it’s scary though. There’s so much uncertainty. Like when I’m really pursuing a dream that I actually care about. Truly care about. What if I fail?

Alison: What if I fail? And then again, would that be so bad?

David: It would.

Alison: Why would it?

David: Well, it’d be a hard pill to swallow, but I have to embrace that. That I don’t know whether things are going to work out. Um, and that’s part of how anxiety can actually make us, show us what our direction is in life. What I’m really anxious about it, it’s probably like, oh, you know what, maybe I got to be doing this. Yeah. Mhm.

Alison: I love that story of the man whose partner cheated on him. And then he ended up creating a business that helped people. But he you know helped people be aware of any kind of, you know, malfeasance in their own businesses. And I loved that because I thought, wow, you really helped that guy figure out what mattered to him and how to move forward, as opposed to just living in that place of resentment and and blame and shame. You know?

David: That to me is where spirituality comes in, you know, why did this happen? Is there a is there a greater context? And if people can start to ask those questions in psychotherapy, I think there’s a lot of great things that happen when patients want to go that route. Of course.

Alison: I think that’s always a common thing. Jean and I have talked to so many people and they all seem to say something happened and I never thought I’d recover from it. And it actually was a blessing. And they actually learned something or it took them in a different path. We’ve heard that so often. Like, you know, Anita Moorjani passed away and, you know, and came back like there were so many people that have experienced that. And so I loved that you embrace and share your spirituality, your points on spirituality in this book.

David: Thank you. A lot of the patients appreciate it too. You know, the the industry of psychotherapy dating back to the the era of Freud has been very avoidant of matters of the spirit. Um, ironically, though, psychology is literally the study of the soul. I don’t know if you know that the Latin root of psyche is soul. The irony. The irony. But that’s changed in the last 20 years. The the sort of godless, uh, industry, if you will, has changed in the last 20 years with a much more open spiritual zeitgeist. Um, and I think especially since Covid, we’ve seen it in, uh, in a large way, a lot of people are asking these questions. Therapists aren’t so afraid to go down. They’ve had the whole movement of mindfulness, the movement of 12 step programs, and AA Alcoholics Anonymous, which is based on spirituality in the realm of anxiety. You don’t see it as much. And that’s sort of where I’m trying to move things along. But nevertheless, you know, these are that’s where the state of the Union.

Jean: Yeah. How great that, you know, here you are a doctor and you’re willing to entertain, even entertain metaphysical.

David: Thank you. Um, you know, it’s definitely part of my life personally and my culture and, you know, my religious background, and I think that’s certainly shaped it. Um, and, uh, it’s also the part of many patients lives, though, that’s really where it’s the main thing . I’ve done research on this and in, uh, in eastern Massachusetts, where I live, one of the least religious enclaves in the entire country, would you believe that 60% of our patients want to speak about spiritual matters, and they want spiritual care? Incredible.

Alison: Yeah, that is incredible. Where are you in Massachusetts.

David: Boston.

Alison: Oh, really? I lived in Boston for a long time. I didn’t know, I didn’t know you were still there. That’s great.

David: Yeah, yeah. Where’d you live?

Alison: I lived right in Back Bay.

David: Yeah. Beautiful spot.

Alison: Yeah. And my mom had a house on Cape Cod, so.

David: Oh, a real New Englander. That’s like, uh.

Alison: I’m from the Bronx, so I could relate to your New York office. So, you know, is your is your anxiety office in New York still incredibly active or…?

David: Sure. Yeah. There’s the Manhattan office, Brooklyn office, couple things out there

Alison: That was really brave of you to do. And I like…

David: Brave or stupid.

David: It’s, uh. It’s been a journey. Yeah.

Jean: Okay. Well, we I would love to hear some, like 2 or 3 tips from you, David, to help someone move through anxiety.

David: Sure. Number one piece of advice that I’m going to give here is to change our relationship with anxiety, as opposed to getting rid of it. You know, we think about anxiety as a disease. You got to get rid of it. It’s going to overcome you. It’s going to eat you alive. It’s going to kill you. You know, I’ve never lost a patient to anxiety and I never will, right? Yes, It’s uncomfortable, but embracing it, allowing it to happen and changing our relationship with this ubiquitous, ubiquitous human emotion that all of us have, let’s face that and accept it is the first step to dealing with anxiety, is to accept it, understand it’s going to be part of your life. Don’t let it rule over you by trying to get rid of it, embrace it, try to understand it, and realize what it’s trying to teach you. That’s sort of my first go to. Once we have truly accepted our anxiety, I’ll give you two and three. Have you accepted your anxiety?

Alison: Yes, I’ve accepted that.

Jean: Yes, right now I did. Yes, I saw my. My white flag is up. I surrender to my anxiety, I surrender.

David: Once you raise the white flag, I like that, once you raise your white flag to anxiety. Um, got a couple of things to say. You know, the number one. Uh, it was really number two. Um, I think it’s such a great tool for enhancing our relationships with others when we can express our raw emotions to them. Um. Part of what I learned. Part of what I was talking about my wife before Miri. Part of what Miri has taught me, She’s taught me many things… One thing she’s taught me is that it actually is a sign of strength. To be able to acknowledge when I’m having a bad day. As opposed to just, you know, pretending that everything is all right. And to be able to come to her and to be able to talk about my feelings and to be able to show her that I actually need someone to be there for me. Right? That’s an greatly enhanced our relationship. That’s converting anxiety into love. As we were speaking about a little bit before. So I don’t think you have to do this with everyone. I don’t think it has to be on your Facebook page or Instagram posts or it maybe, but I don’t think it needs to be a public image. But I do think they have to be 1 or 2 people in this world that you can actually convert anxiety into love with by showing them how you really feel and letting them be there for you. That’ll enhance your connection. And another one. I guess I told you I’d give you three years. Another one is when you’re pursuing a dream, you will feel anxious. Because you care about it. We spoke about this a little before two. Which means that the experience of anxiety in of itself is not necessarily a bad thing. It might be an indication, actually, that you’re on the right route.

Alison: Mm. That’s great. Yeah. And I love I really appreciate you and I love all the work that you’re doing. I wish that I wish I was your patient.

David: It’s very kind of you to say thank you.

Jean: You wrote a wonderful book. There’s something for everyone.

Alison: And I was reading it in a waiting room, and I realized the cover is so great.. And two people were like, what’s that about? How do you do that? And I was like, you gotta, you gotta go get it. But it’s pretty great. Yeah.

David: So I can listen to your podcast. They can also get a 12 page free guide on my website, by the way, which all your listeners are able to get. Um, so that is available to anyone. And I can send you the link. You can put it in the show notes. DHROSMARIN.COM Is my website, and, uh, I think it’s on the home page. Um, there’s a link to the book, and you can get a 12 page free guide. Um, I’d love to hear from people. My, you know, I read the comments that come through on the website and respond to many of them. And so, um, I love engaging with people about this topic. It’s just a great topic and an important one.

Alison: If we think of more things or, or another book comes out of your wonderful mind, can we call you again?

David: Please do. I don’t know if I’m working on another book just yet. Don’t make me anxious or stressed. Um, but I definitely, um, so grateful to to meet you.

Alison: Great. Maybe after the election will give you a call or during. Thank you so much. We appreciate it.

Jean: Thank you, you’re a wonderful guest, and many blessings to you and your family. And say hi to your wife.

David: Thank you. We’ll do. Goodbye. Take care.

Alison: The really interesting thing about this interview was that I was late and David was having technical issues. And so we’re starting the interview about anxiety with anxiety, which was just like, I’m like, I’m almost there, Jean…. Hang on. You know, that’s right.

Jean: I did think I was like, wow, this is so interesting that that this is occurring. But you know what? We made it. And what a great interview. Um, David is, was really lovely to talk with. And, um, he’s got a gentle side to him too. Yeah.

Alison: And he, um, it was a very different interview in that he’s like that. He had that little quiz for us. He asked us that question and we both just sit there nodding and he’s like, well, what do you think? I’m right. Go ahead. Right. Pick up your pencils and begin. You know. So he was great I liked him. He was funny and, um, very relaxed and, um, I love that he’s taking a different tact and showing us that we all have anxiety and that it’s just a part of it and how you can work with it.

Jean: Right. And he he offers to anyone, as he said, “If the listeners want, they may reach out to me.” and that meant a lot to me. How gracious of him to to offer that. So if you are someone that would like to talk to a wonderful doctor schooled in anxiety, here’s your guy.

Alison: So thriving with anxiety. And you know, I’ve had some stressful stuff come up since we’ve interviewed him. And I have really used his tips about making connections, about being vulnerable, about having compassion for myself. And it’s very helpful. So I suggest taking a gander at Thriving With Anxiety. Yes, there I go. I feel very relaxed.

Jean: Wow, that was a mouthful.

Alison: It was okay. Bye everybody.