Alison : What were you thinking?

Jean: I was thinking, did I shut off the fan in the bathroom?

Alison : It sounds good.

Jean: Yeah. It’s quiet.

Alison : Right? It’s very nice. It’s very quiet here today. Hello there. Jean.

Jean: Hi, Alison.

Alison : Um, how are you doing?

Jean: I’m doing great.

Alison : Yeah,

Jean: It’s lovely to see you again. I get to see you twice this week.

Alison : That’s so wonderful, isn’t it? Um, we were just talking about our website and how we can make it better for our listeners and viewers.

Jean: Yeah, we want it. Excuse me.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean: Excuse me.

Alison : We want it to be, like, easily accessible– that people get the information right away. Is that what did you say that?

Jean: Yeah, I would absolutely. And that they understand what our topics are about.

Alison : Right.

Jean: So.

Alison : And if you guys have any ideas for topics, send it to [email protected]. We would love that, right?

Jean: We would, because you get the emails.

Alison : That’s right. That’s right. So I would love that. Fantastic. I send them to Jean. But today we have an excellent excellent guy. Right?

Jean: Yes. We have Doctor Bradley Nelson.

Alison : And could you tell me a little bit about him. Because I think you might be more familiar with him than me.

Jean: Okay. Well I’m going to read this. Uh, so doctor Bradley Nelson is a former chiropractor who created, uh, wrote, The Emotion Code book, and now he, uh, he published,  The Heart Code and he wrote this with his wife, Jean.

Alison : Um, which is what a nice name.

Jean: Nice name. I mean, you never hear that name.  So I bet she’s amazing.

Alison : It just rolls off the tongue. That’s right.

Jean: Okay, uh, the book, The Heart Code, based on the idea that unresolved emotions can get trapped in the body and affect our well-being. And that makes sense to me.

Alison : Yeah. And when I was reading the book, I called you because I was like, what? I’m not sure I get it fully. And so I’m really interested to talk to him about some of my questions and muscle testing and things like that. And, and he’s a like, seems like to be a lovely man.

Jean: He, he seems that way. Yep.

Alison : So I can’t wait. Yeah. Are you ready?

Jean: I’m ready.

Alison : Here we go.

Bradley: Hello!

Alison : Hello!

Jean: Oh, it is so such a pleasure to meet you.

Bradley: Yeah. Great to meet you, too.

Jean: My name is Jean.

Alison : And I’m Alison.

Bradley: Okay. Jean and Alison.

Jean: Yeah. Now, I don’t think you’ll have a hard time remembering my name…hahah

Bradley: No,

Alison : because of your wife.

Bradley: Jean and Alison. Got you. Yeah. My wife Jean.

Alison : Thank you so much for for coming on. We, um, we read The Heart Code and it’s incredibly interesting and amazing. Could you tell our listeners a little bit about how you got to the point of the hard code?

Bradley: Well, right. Um, okay. Well, I was a computer programmer starting in the early 80s. And, um, and then I became a doctor and, uh, because I’d been a computer programmer and because I was really, I was really obsessed with getting to the, uh, the underlying causes of my patients problems, right? I wanted to know what was really causing their issues so that I could fix them. And, uh, I had some experiences and I, that helped me to gradually realize that, uh, there is a computer of sorts inside of every person. And we call it the subconscious mind, right? And we can ask questions and get answers from it. And, um, so that sounds crazy. I remember when I was, uh, in, uh, I remember when I was in school, one of our, my neurology instructor was up at the board talking about how the brain is a computer and everything. And I’d been a programmer. And I remember sitting there thinking, wow, the brain’s a computer. I wonder if we’ll ever be able to access the information that must be in there to help our patients. Right. And I thought, well, maybe in a hundred years, maybe 200 years, we’ll have that. But little did I know, that’s what I was going to be spending the rest of my career doing. And so, um, so yes, so that’s, that was a huge thing for me to understand and realize that, uh, uh, we each have within us all the answers about what’s going on and what we really need. You know, the subconscious mind remembers everything.

Bradley: Um, every face you’ve ever seen in a crowd, everything you’ve ever eaten or tasted or touched or smelled, you know, the whole history of your your emotional life and everything is all in there. And so, um, one of the things that I found was that we, when we experience emotions, the normal process is that we feel an emotion because it’s coming in response to some stimulus that’s occurred. You know, we’ve seen something or someone said something or whatever. And normally we feel an emotion and then we just kind of acknowledge it. And then it just kind of dissipates its energy and it goes away. That’s normal. But sometimes, uh, sometimes we don’t deal with things the right way because sometimes an emotion is coming up for us and we don’t want to go there. So we bury it and we move on. Well, the problem is that emotional energy now is unexpressed. And so it’s still in the body. And we call it a trapped emotion. And trapped emotion is a little ball of energy. Uh, you know, about the size of a baseball or softball. Well, so that’s one way, another way that we develop emotional baggage because that’s what this is, is, um, if, uh, if we decide to take an emotion that we’re feeling that’s coming up for us and really enhance it. And those are the cases where we fly off the handle, right? And then later we realize, oh, man, I got to get a better handle on my emotions.

Alison : Exactly.

Bradley: It’ll also result in a trapped emotion. And then there’s one other way we develop these. Well, actually two other ways. The next way is if something happens, it’s just overwhelming, right? Like you lose a loved one or suddenly you’re in a divorce, you don’t want to be in one or, you know, a child is injured or, you know, things happen in life that can also result in emotional baggage. And there’s one other way that we develop emotional baggage, and that is we can absorb it from other people. Okay. And then there’s actually one way beyond that. Uh, and that is, um, that we inherit emotional energy at conception from mom or dad. And it’s it’s universal. Everybody receives emotional energy from mom or dad, but they may have received that energy from their mom or dad. And those can go back for sometimes many generations. Right? And so, uh, so yeah, that’s so the, uh, so here’s what happened, uh, as far as the heart, uh, in my practice years ago, I’ve been doing this for about 35 years in my practice, there were times when I would work on somebody and I would come away with this feeling like there was something missing, something that I wasn’t getting access to in their internal system. Right? I could ask questions, but there were things I couldn’t find. I didn’t know what that was.

Bradley: And, um, and then one day it was in 1998, my wife had a dream. And as I was trying to help her decipher this dream, suddenly I have this waking vision where the room that I’m in is not there anymore. And instead I’m seeing this unbelievably beautiful hardwood floor. And this is totally high def 3-D. It was an incredible experience. And, um, I at the same time that I’m seeing this floor, I have this understanding that comes into my mind that my wife’s heart is underneath this floor. Now, I have no idea what this means and I told her what I was seeing and understanding. She didn’t know what it meant either. So we asked for help from up above, and I started doing some muscle testing on her. Because that’s how the subconscious mind can give answers. Uh, the subconscious mind is essentially a binary computer in terms of its interface. So in other words, think of it this way. Um, for example, you know, if I look at my phone, right, this is a computer. There’s little buttons on here, icons I can press with my finger. So it’s a, it’s a touch screen interface. I’m sitting at my laptop. It’s got a screen where I can see things. It’s got a keyboard where I can, you know, communicate.

Bradley: And so it’s the screen slash keyboard interface. But the the human body has this immensely powerful computer within it, I think. Um, so powerful. It’s beyond our ability to comprehend. I think it’s the level of intelligence that, um, is orders of magnitude greater than we can even begin to imagine because it’s, it’s, um, if you think about all the things it’s doing and all these chemical reactions going on that we just kind of take for granted, right?  every moment of life really is a miracle, right? One, we live one miracle moment to the next because we really, by all rights shouldn’t, shouldn’t really be alive. It shouldn’t really work, but it does. So, uh, but anyway, the subconscious mind is a binary computer really, so we can ask questions and get answers. So for example, if I were there with you, with you, I could ask either one of you, Alison or Jean, to hold out your arm. And if you were to say your name, for example, Jean, if I’m working on you, you could say my name is Jean. And that’d be a true statement. And if I were to press down on your outstretched arm, you’d be able to resist me. You’d be strong. But if you were to say my name, uh, you know, is Joan or Bob or something, your arm would go down.

Bradley: And that’s just a natural response, because the subconscious mind, um, knows the difference between what’s true and what isn’t and what’s positive and what’s negative and so on. So, um, so you can get information out of the body this way. So I started asking my wife questions, right? Testing her arm. Okay. Trying to figure out what in the world is this about? What’s going on here? What was this whole vision thing and what’s going on? Your heart was underneath this floor. And what we found was that, um, there was a wall around her heart, symbolically made of hardwood. And she grew up in a house with hardwood floors. Her dad put the floors in. She remembers seeing that happen, but her dad was also a rageaholic. And so, um,  a very dysfunctional family. And, uh, by the time we found it, by the time she was two years old, she had begun to build a wall around her heart. And that wall was made of layers of her emotional baggage. Right. The emotional energies that had become trapped in her body. And, uh, so this is all really fascinating, right? And, uh, so I asked, okay. And I have to tell you, in the beginning, I thought, okay, she’s had some weird stuff. I thought, this is probably, uh, she’s probably the only person in the world that has this weird thing.

Bradley: Well, so I’ll just leave that hanging for a minute because because then I asked, okay, can we start removing these emotions, these layers of emotional energy? And the answer was yes. So it took us about two weeks and we were able to finally get rid of all of those. And when the last one was gone, This shift happened for her. She had, um, she had always felt like she was on the outside looking in with every relationship she was ever in, with friends that she’d known for her whole life. She always felt like she was kind of the odd person out. Like she didn’t really ever belong anywhere, really. It was easy for her to feel negative emotions, harder to feel positive ones. She battled with depression and anxiety until that last emotional energy was gone and her heart was suddenly open. And all of that shifted. And for the first time in her life, she began to feel connected to other people. Really cool. So, um, so yeah, I thought, okay, well, you know, she’s maybe the only person in the world that has this. Well, now we know that about 93% of people have it. This is the norm in this world, on this particular planet, on other planets, it’s probably not the norm, but it is here.

Alison : Did you have a heart wall?

Bradley: Yeah, I did, yeah. It’s so common. Children can have a heart wall. You know, it’s so interesting because when we work on, for example, um, children that are autistic, one of the things, one of their hallmarks is they won’t tend to make eye contact. They seem to always, all the cases that we’ve seen, they always have a heart wall when that wall is taken down. One of the very first things they do is they suddenly begin to make eye contact. Wow. Isn’t that interesting?

Jean: Very

Bradley: Yeah. And one of the very next people that I saw, uh, that had a heart wall was this woman that came in to see me. And she, um, she came in because she had pretty severe neck pain. Right. It’s about a nine on a 0 to 10 scale and had been going on for a while, and she’d seen a couple of other doctors and it was still bothering her. So she came in to see me. And as I was talking with her, she told me that she was single and was never going to get married, ever. She was going to die single and she was 38 years old. She hadn’t dated in eight years. And she was an attractive woman. She was a nurse, actually. And she said. I said to her, well, how did you arrive at this conclusion? I mean, you’re going to live the rest of your life single. That seems, you know, kind of intense. And she said that eight years before, she was really deeply in love with this guy that broke her heart, you know, and that was it. So I tested her and found she had there were three emotions, three layers of emotional energy wrapped around her heart.

Bradley: And they all had to do with the breakup from eight years before. When I cleared the last one, suddenly the neck pain was gone. Right? Because that’s that’s. So she got what she came for, you know, she wanted to get out of pain. And she did so. And she didn’t come back for about three months. And when she came back in my office, I’ll always remember this. I saw her in my hallway and I said, hey, how are you? What’s going on? Because I remembered her immediately. And, uh, she said, my neck has been fine since I was here. But, you know, you cleared that heart wall for me. And that really works because she said about two weeks after I was here, last, I found out that my childhood sweetheart has been living right around the corner from me for almost eight years, and we’re dating and we’re in love. And I think he’s going to ask me to marry him. Right? And I just thought. Wait…. I thought you were…

Alison : That’s so great.

Bradley: Yeah.

Jean: I mean….You give such great stories in your book.

Bradley: Yeah, there are a lot of them too.

Jean: So for our listeners that really have no idea about this mind body connection and emotional connection, why is the heart so important to clear?

Bradley: Well, you know, it’s a great question. I’ll tell you what it is. It, uh, the reality of it is that the heart is everything the ancients believed it to be.  um, ancient societies, you know, the Greeks, the Romans, um, you know, uh, the, the Indians in East India, the Chinese. They all had different ideas about the heart, but  they pretty much line up that they believed that the heart was the seat of the soul, or the source of creativity or romance, that they believed the heart was really the most important organ in the body, the core of our being. Where did they get those crazy ideas? Well, because they were great observers. And think about it. If you’re feeling really hurt, if you’re really deep in grief, where do you feel it? Well, you feel it right here, don’t you? Right in your core. And so that happens when your heart is kind of under assault, right? But by the same token, they also had to have noticed that, um, if they were listening to somebody, for example, performing, someone is singing and they’re singing truly from their heart, inevitably their heart would begin to resonate with that other heart. And they feel it here. I mean, all you have to do is watch some of these, um..oh, you know, these, uh, like America’s Got Talent or those shows, right? Where they, especially the ones where they uncover this unbelievable talent that’s blowing them all away. Yeah. They’ll pan around to the audience and people have got tears in their eyes and they’ve, they’ve got hands over their heart. Well, the ancients understood these things about the heart. So they believed the heart was all of these mystical things, right.

Bradley: Well, in the West, we’ve never paid any attention to those ideas. But back in the 1960s was when they first began doing heart transplants. And it didn’t take too long before doctors started noticing a weird phenomenon that sometimes certain patients would come back to them and they would report crazy things. For example, uh, that their taste in music had radically changed. Or food or sports, or sometimes they would, uh, say that, uh, they now had memories of being in places that they never in their life had ever visited. And in every occasion when these people were connected with the family of the heart donors, they would find out, well, yes, our son was a baseball player. And now you love baseball. Well, that’s weird. Or, you know, our daughter visited Paris every chance she got. It was her favorite city. And now you have memories of being in Paris. And you’ve never in your whole life ever been there. Those must be her memories. How weird is that, right? Everybody knows about this. It’s called cellular memory. And there are just so many amazing stories. One of my favorite ones is a nine year old girl who was dying of heart failure, and she got her heart from another little girl who had been murdered. And when she recovered, she began having these nightmares. And the nightmares were that she was being killed. And her descriptions of the murderer and the murder weapon led to the arrest and conviction of the killer of the donor. She was seeing the donor’s murder. I mean, think about that. It’s just mind blowing, right?

Jean: It’s mind blowing.

Alison : Yeah. So totally exciting.

Bradley: Yeah, it is exciting. Well, we’re living now in the age of the heart, and so now we know that when you feel like your heart’s going to break your subconscious mind, and I believe, really, that the heart is the seat of the subconscious, it will begin to build a wall to protect itself. And it uses energy to, to protect itself. And the energies that are available in the body are the energies of our emotional baggage, right? And so it starts building a wall. I mean, you know, look at the walls in your office or in your house. What are those made of? Well, you know, wall board and lumber and so on. But really on a quantum level, they’re just made of energy. And the subconscious mind knows that. And so it builds a wall. And it’s not unusual at all when that wall is taken down for people to fall in love who never thought they would. It’s not unusual for people to have creative ideas that begin to flow spontaneously, because the best creative ideas you’ll ever have will not come from the brain in your head. They’ll come from the brain in your heart. And that’s why when you graduate from high school or college, someone’s going to tell you you should follow your heart. And that’s great advice. But what if you have a heart wall because 93% of people do, right? You got to get rid of the heart wall. That’s what the heart code books about. It was, you know, in the Emotion Code that first came out in 2007. There was one chapter about this, and we knew at that time, eventually we’re going to have to write another book about it. And so the time is right now. And, uh, and so, so my wife is my co-author on this book, the Heart Code. And, um, it’s, uh, it’s time because.

Alison : Yeah.

Bradley: I mean, think about it. If you’re trying to go through life with a wall around your heart, it makes it much more difficult for you to create the life you really want. And you know, to, to find your soulmate because that love is an energy. It’s not just an action, it’s an energy. That energy, when that energy flows out through those layers of negative emotions, it’s not the same when it hits that other person’s subconscious mind, when it hits their heart, you know, and they may just turn around and walk away because their subconscious might be thinking, wow, that person’s bad news because of all the negative energy that you, you know, is twisting and deforming that pure energy that you’re sending to them. And that’s why people end up being single, you know, for years and years and why it’s harder if you’ve been through a divorce, for example, it’s a lot harder for you to find love again. And, you know, because now you’ve got this wall, if you didn’t have it before…so….

Alison : and in the book, you give a very interesting, detailed, uh, guide on how to, to do this for yourself or to someone else.

Bradley: Absolutely. So you can do it with the information that’s in the book. You can do this on yourself. You don’t have to hire anybody to do it. Lots of people have done it themselves, cleared their own heart walls.

Alison : Yeah, I know, I want to talk about that. Um, I want to clear my heart wall. So the minute this, I’m the type of person like, let’s do it. I got to like chapter three and I’m like, I’m in. Okay, let’s do it. But the muscle testing for me, um, feels like, like how whole do I type? Like, how tight do I hold? Nothing opens, everything opens. How do I know i’m not kidding myself? Like, you know?

Bradley: Well, you know, um, self muscle testing, which we teach in the book is, uh, it’s a skill, right? And the two most common mistakes that people make, uh, one mistake and what we’re talking about really is what we call the ring in ring test where you, you make, uh, two rings out of your thumbs and forefingers and you link them together. So there’s a chain. Uh, the most common mistake people make is they use too much energy, too much strength in those rings, so they’re way too tight. What I have learned is that, um, uh, if you pick up, let’s say you pick up a ladybug in your kitchen and you carry it outside, you know, between your thumb and your forefinger. Yeah. How much force would you use?

Alison : Very gentle, very gentle.

Bradley: And that’s about how much force you can use for the muscle testing. Very, very gentle. And then the other thing that’s interesting is, um, uh, can you type?

Alison : Uh, yeah,  I’m hunt and peck.

Bradley: Hunt and peck. Okay. Well, if you think about it, um, if you go, if you watch somebody who’s really great at typing, maybe they’re typing along, you know, 100, 120 words a minute or something, what they’ll tell you is, um, if they start thinking about what their fingers are doing, their speed immediately drops, you know, dramatically, right? Because the subconscious mind knows what it’s doing. And, and, uh, same thing with muscle testing. So in other words, if you’re focusing on the test itself, focusing on your fingers, it kind of short circuits the process. So you focus on the question and, uh, and, and then keep your focus there and allow the muscle test to take place kind of out of your focus. And, uh, and that will work better for you. The other thing, of course, is that you can use a pendulum and pendulums work great for this kind of thing. And, uh, yeah, so I explained that in the book too.

Alison : Yeah. If I used a pendulum, I could close my eyes. Right. And not really see which way it was going at the beginning and then see. Okay. Yeah, I didn’t think of that. It’s such a great, it’s such an interesting… Because you give exact guides on how to move through the questioning of yourself or somebody else.

Bradley: Well, we want everybody to, uh, to learn how to do this because the world, uh, I believe the world is…. It’s like the world is in labor trying to give birth to this whole new, amazing world, this new existence that lots of people have talked about. I mean, since Time Out of Mind. But that right now we’re on the very verge of how do we do that? Well, there’s a lot of healing that has to take place, right? And I believe maybe the single biggest block of all is that 90 plus percent of people in the world have got a wall around their heart. So people are walking around and they’re trying to really feel with this brain, which really isn’t programmed. It’s not designed to feel, right. We have two brains, and the brain that’s in our heads does not really feel anything. And so here we are. It’s 2026. And you’d think that mankind would have, you know, progressed further. But here we are. And we’re still using war to, you know, as an extension of politics and to, you know—This brain thinks it’s perfectly logical to drop bombs on people you know and. Et cetera. So it’s time for all that to shift… But it’s by opening this brain because then you begin to really feel, see. And, um, it’s just the most, it’s the most incredible thing. Um, a couple of months ago, one of our practitioners told us that she was working on this lady remotely. And you can do this all remotely to she was in a nursing home and I guess she’d been a spinster all her life. And now she’s really at an old age and she’s in this nursing home, but she gets her heart well cleared for the first time in her whole life, no doubt. And about a week later, she reports back that she’s suddenly in love for the first time in her life with this elderly gentleman that is just down the hall.

Alison : I love that.

Bradley: It’s so cute.

Jean: That is so cute.

Jean: Okay, so I have a question. So after you have, you know, you clear your heart wall or walls, there can be walls, right?

Bradley: Well, most yeah, we refer to it as one wall made of multiple layers or multiple emotions. Right. Sometimes it’s only one. The lady that I worked on that I mentioned, you know, the nurse, she had three. It could be ten, maybe 20, but, uh, you just never know.

Alison : Wow. Yeah.

Jean: You could be with us all weekend.

Jean: so after you do the clearing, can can heart walls reform?

Bradley: They can. And so, um, typically what will happen is, and what we recommend for people is once the heart wall is gone to check it periodically, okay, maybe once a month, come back and just check it. It’s possible that, that if your heart feels that it needs to be protected, Maybe there’s something, you know, hard going on. It might it might build another layer. Right. And typically that will just be one emotion. Sometimes two. But that can happen. Now in rare cases, a person some people might continually just keep building it and building it. You take it down, it gets built again. In that case, what we do is we we take a different angle and we ask the subconscious mind, okay, um, what is the reason? Is there a reason why you keep rebuilding this wall? And then often what we’ll find is some other really gnarly emotion of terror or something somewhere in the body. And we clear that. And then that usually fixes it.

Jean: That’s great. You know, I think your work is so important, um, especially for sensitive people and empaths because, because if you’re very sensitive, you know, you, you close down, you just don’t, you just feel so vulnerable. And, you know, now is the time that we do need, as they say, empowered empaths to really be the leaders in our world. So how great to clear those walls and so that sensitive people can can take the reigns.

Alison : Yeah. Yeah.

Bradley: Well, and the reality, I think is that we’re, we’re all sensitive people in a way. Once the walls taken down.

Jean: Yeah.

Bradley: Because people go through life, you know, with a, you know, they got a heart wall the, the size of a house maybe, you know, made out of it’s weird because the subconscious will always choose, uh, some kind of a symbolic material for the wall to be quote unquote, made out of. Right. And, uh, and it’s interesting because we’ve seen all kinds of things, everything from like one way mirror to, uh, typically it’s some kind of building material like stone, iron steel. Those are really, really common. But I mean, it’s interesting because there’s also a physical correlation because sometimes people will have a big wall and they’ve also got, you know, shoulder pain and pain in the upper back because in a way, this thing is real. It’s just on another dimension that we can’t see. But to the subconscious mind, yeah, you actually, uh, you know, you’ve, you’ve got a, you’ve got a heart wall there that the size of an exercise ball and it’s made out of lead. Imagine carrying that around.

Alison : Right?

Jean: Yeah.

Bradley: And then when that’s cleared, oftentimes that pain goes away.

Alison : Can you pray or meditate your way out of a heart wall?

Bradley: Well, you know, I think there’s, uh, I think it’s possible. The nice thing about the emotion code is that, um, you can usually get it done, you know, within a week or so. You might have to meditate for years to do it.

Bradley: I don’t know.

Alison : Yeah.  And why does it matter to know the event? Like we’ve watched you clear somebody, right?

Bradley: Yeah.

Alison : Why does it matter? Uh, when the event was or what the event is. Why? Why is that important to discover for you?

Bradley: Well, we don’t always know, but here’s the thing, okay? If you think about it, an emotional experience, um, you can think of it as being like a loop, right? You begin to feel the emotion. Normally we acknowledge it, we allow it to dissipate its energy. The loop closes and that experience is over. Right? But in these three circumstances that I talked about, you know, burying the emotion or artificially enhancing it or it just being overwhelming, what ends up happening is that loop doesn’t complete. So now you’ve got an open loop and the emotional energy is still there. Now in order for that, for the subconscious mind to be okay with totally closing that loop and allowing that to really be done, uh, and finished sometimes for, for its own reasons, the subconscious mind will want you to know certain things, and oftentimes it’s enough to just find the emotion, identify it. That’s enough. But, um, for example, I worked on somebody just recently and I’m retired. I just travel and speak and do things like this now. But, but I was working on a friend and, um, what showed up was this trapped emotion and we traced it back, traced it back, traced it back.

Bradley: And I think it was grief or sadness, and it traced back to when they were in the womb, actually. And that and so the subconscious mind wanted us to know once we got to there, I asked, do we need to know anything else? The subconscious mind said, yep, there’s something else you need to know. And the next question was, okay, well, was this your emotion? Uh, it did originate with you. And the answer was no. And it was from, uh, it was from her mother. So her mother was feeling this intense emotion. Those are, uh, yeah, I was in the third trimester. First trimester. Things are very rare, but second and third are more common. And so her mom was going through something intense, feeling that vibrational energy of that emotion. And the baby was also in there feeling it and it got trapped in the baby. And so. So you never know. And with inherited emotions, what’s interesting is you have to figure out you can’t release it unless you figure out if it came from mom or dad.

Alison : Wow.

Bradley: And if they got it from somebody earlier. And so, um, we always figure out the, at least the number of generations. And if it came from mom or dad, and then the subconscious mind will sometimes want you to know who it originated with too, if it was a male or a female. And so it’s another way of doing genealogy.

Alison : Exactly. It’s hard genealogy, you know, it’s, you know.

Jean: It’s so fascinating. I, I just really appreciate everything you’re sharing with us. So let’s say someone’s listening and they want to work with a practitioner. How do they… So they just reach out and find the practitioner and they can do it remotely, which….

Bradley: Yes, we’ve got. Um, yeah, we have, I think we have almost 16,000 certified practitioners now and 108 countries. So if you want to find somebody, you can go to discoverhealing.com. That’s our main website, discoverhealing.com. And if you go to that website, just click on the practitioners button. And we have, we have staff practitioners that are our staffers that do work. And then we’ve got people, there’s Google map and you can find somebody and, um, they don’t have to be in your neck of the woods. They, I mean, you might find the ideal person for you is based in Singapore or London or, you know, but yes, it absolutely works at a distance just as well as it does, uh, you know, live and in person. There’s no difference really. It’s the same thing.

Alison : I love that. And can we talk a little bit about the Hawaiian prayer?

Bradley: Yes, absolutely. – The Ho’oponopono prayer. Well, that’s something that we included in the Heart Code book really, because it’s made such a difference for us. And, um, the Ho’oponopono prayer is, uh, is something that you can, I highly recommend that you kind of make part of your life because, uh, you can’t really have peace in your life until you’ve forgiven everybody. And also until really you’ve asked for forgiveness from everybody. And so Ho’oponopono, the prayer is, uh, it’s just four statements. I’m sorry.  Please forgive me. Thank you. I love you.   And I can’t tell you how many times I’ve said that. And what’s interesting is, you know, as you as you get older, you go back through your life and you use that little prayer and things will come to mind. You know, where you, you maybe you hurt somebody. You and we’ve all hurt people and we’ve all done things we’d rather not have done, etc.. Right? But, um, and you’re not going to be able to go back, you know, in the past and connect with every single person that you ever were in contact with. But what will happen is as you do that, um, it enables you to kind of find peace because, you know, you’re, you’re asking really for forgiveness and you’re, you’re kind of tying up these loose ends in your life. And, um, it’s just really interesting. Uh, it’s, it’s, it’s really fun because, you know, when you clear your heart wall, your vibrational level rises and, you know, people have talked for many years about becoming an ascended being. Well, what does that mean? Well, becoming an ascended being, uh, the, the clue to that is the people who die and come back and what they say and they say things like, for example, that they had a life review and in the life review, um, everybody in their life that, you know, all their whole entire life is played and they comprehend their whole life and they comprehend the good things that they did and the bad things that they did.

Bradley: And they’re able to experience not only from their point of view, but also from the point of view. They’re able to feel how other people felt about, you know, what happened in their whole entire life. So they come back feeling like they need to really try to be as good as they can, try to, um, try to treat people well and be kind. You know, every day for the rest of their lives. The beautiful thing about the heart wall and getting it, you know, released is that suddenly your ability to feel love raises and your ability to love unconditionally. And those people that die and they come back, they often have, you know, in this life review, they’re never asked how big of a house they lived in or how much money they made. No. Right. Never. But they are asked about their ability to love others. Right? And I think that’s a real clue because and when that wall is taken down, our ability to love others and to love unconditionally, you know, regardless of what a person looks like or anything, that ability increases, right? And so we, our, our vibrational energy in a sense, elevates and we begin to become happy in spite of what’s going on in the world, you know, or in our lives. We, uh, we can be happy even in cases where, you know, we wondered if we could ever have a happy moment ever again.

Alison :  Mhm. Yeah.

Bradley: It’s still possible.

Alison : Do you think-  can you tell me, because we discussed this a lot. Unconditional love. How can that beautiful idea and the idea of not being able to fulfill something that someone else wants or needs from you, how can they live in the same place? Do you understand my question?

Bradley: Yeah, absolutely. Well, it’s all about resistance, really. See, because we spend a lot of our lives resisting things that we don’t like, right? We spend a lot of time resisting other people, other ideas. Um, you know, the will of the higher power for us. We resist against all those things thinking that we know better. But what that does is it, um, it leads to negative emotions, right? Uh, on the other hand, when we, when we flip that around and we move into a state of acceptance, which is the product really of unconditional love, right? When we accept things, then suddenly, instead of being in this state of resistance where we’re creating all of this friction, then life becomes frictionless. It’s like the guru that said, um, you know, in my world, nothing ever goes wrong. It’s like that. Or it’s like the story from I can’t remember who it was that, um, emergency room doctor that had three people they resuscitated in the ER, which is very unusual. And they all said the same thing. They had died and they all came back and they all in more or less the same words they said, uh, they said why did you bring me back number one, nobody ever wants to come back.

Bradley: And then. Right. And number two, um, that for the first time in their whole existence, when they got to the other side, they felt totally accepted. Right? Think about that. They had to die to feel that. Well, we can create a world where people feel totally accepted and they don’t have to die to get there. It’s all about unconditional love… And the source of unconditional love is the heart. But when there’s a wall there, it’s much, much more difficult. So when the wall is taken down,  your ability to love others improves your ability to, uh, to forgive, because forgiveness really is an act of love too.  even though, you know, we think it’s for the person that wronged us. But it’s like Lewis Smedes said, forgiveness is like setting the prisoner free, only to find out the prisoner was you. Right. So, uh, yeah, that’s what it’s all about. All these amazing things.

Alison : Yes. Yeah.

Jean: It is, it is about love. And and it’s it’s so true to your point, uh, you know, when you hear of someone that has left their body and everyone says it’s about love.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean: All About love. So.

Alison : Um, and I have to tell you, this quote that you wrote, was like an epiphany for me. And I wrote a quote in the book. In the book, it is on page 84 in The Heart Code. And you’re saying you experienced homesickness.

Bradley: Oh, yes.

Alison : And that it was a soul ache. You’re discussing this feeling that you had. And then you said, um, “the memory of our heavenly home would pull at us so strongly we would not be able to fulfill our mission here.” And that kept me up- because I thought to myself, I’ve never heard it explained that way. And I just wanted to thank you for that. Like, I think that’s an amazing paragraph.

Bradley: Well, not only would we not be able to fulfill our missions here, we wouldn’t be able to tolerate it here.

Alison : Mhm. Yeah.

Bradley: I mean, uh, yeah, that’s what I learned. We wouldn’t be able to stand it here for five minutes because the place that we came from is incomprehensibly, uh, higher in vibration. And it’s a it’s a place of unconditional love– And, uh, we can’t even comprehend it. I mean, we’re we’re so far from that, but we have an opportunity…. This world’s been given to us, and we have an opportunity. We can remake this world. We can change it. It doesn’t have to be full of darkness and war and all these bad things. We can shift it. And people have seen this shift happen. Um, people have seen that. And this is a key part of this.  if we can take down enough walls from enough people in the world, all of a sudden we hit the tipping point and boom, the world transforms. People have seen it happen. So yeah.

Alison : Thank you for that though. It’s just really very meaningful. And ask one more thing. Yeah, before we usually switch back and forth. But I’m like you before you, um, were talking about how magnificent our brain computer is. What do you just really briefly, what do you think of AI?

Bradley: Oh, I think AI is, uh, is a tool that, um, has, I think that everything that’s good, you know, people can take credit, uh, for creating amazing things and developments that have moved mankind forward. But I believe that really there’s only one source and the source is the, is the, you know, is God, it’s our, it’s our father in heaven. It’s the source from whence all great things come. Right. And we might think that it’s all because of our own blood, sweat and tears. But really it’s anything that’s good has come from up above. And so I don’t take any credit for this work. Uh, I tell people, look, I just work here. I just have this job. I’m grateful for it, you know? But this is, you know.

Jean: I’m just the pizza delivery guy.

Bradley: That’s exactly right. I’m the Uber guy.

Alison : Right.

Jean: Well, oh my goodness. I, you know, again, your stories are phenomenal. I’m really so happy to speak with you, and I truly hope people, um, purchase your book and and for themselves. It’s a true gift of love to yourself to live life at your highest potential and, and you give us a way to do that. So thank you so much. We have two wrap up questions.

Bradley: Oh, wait, before we go to those, can I just share with people if they want to, uh, get a free session from one of our practitioners? If they just go to my website at doctor Bradley Nelson.com — drbradleynelson.com. They can order books there, the copies of The Heart Code book. And if they order a few books, um, then they actually get a free sample session. Uh. Oh.

Alison : That’s great.

Alison : That’s wonderful.

Bradley: It’s a great deal.

Jean: Yeah, it is a great deal.

Bradley: Okay. Go ahead.

Alison : Okay.

Jean: Our last two questions. Go for it Alison

Alison : What do you think? Our podcast is called Inside Wink. And so, what do you think inside wink means?

Bradley: Well, you know. What comes to my mind is, uh, when my wife and I got married, we’ve been married 45 years this year, and we’ve got eight kids. Thanks. But back in about 1981, when we first got married, we got in some situations where, you know, we didn’t really quite know how to excuse ourselves graciously. So we came up with this kind of like an inside wink. And what it was, was if one of us tugged on, on his, his or her ear, it was like, okay, it’s time to go. Right. We still we’re still doing that 45 years later. Um, so yeah, I guess that’s what it comes. That’s what comes up for me.

Alison : That’s funny. Are those like those boring parties? Like. Yeah.  exactly.

Bradley: Time to go.

Jean: I know, because you run it sometimes. And you know, when you have small kids, you can always say, sorry, we gotta go, you know? Little Bobby needs us.

Bradley: Oh, yeah. Great excuse.

Jean: Then they know your kids are much older, and it.

Alison : Doesn’t make sense when they’re 30, you know?

Jean: Okay. And our last question is, do you prefer cake, pie or ice cream?

Bradley: Oh, boy. You know, I really prefer pie, but certain kinds of pie, like boysenberry pie. My favorite actually, is, um, rhubarb.

Alison : Oh, yes.

Jean: That’s a great one.

Alison : Yes. We, you know, surprisingly, we just had someone else say that recently. Strawberry rhubarb. The votes are going up for that.

Bradley: Strawberry rhubarb or just rhubarb to really tangy.

Alison : Yeah.

Bradley: Yeah. Good stuff.

Jean: Very nice.

Alison : Thank you so much. You’re so lovely. And your book is, is, um, is so it’s groundbreaking. I think it’s very, very interesting. And we’re going to look for sessions or try to do it to each other. So we’ll see.

Bradley: Go for it. Great to meet you both.

Jean: Oh, it’s a pleasure meeting you. Thank you to your wife. I know she helped you and, uh, that’s beautiful. So many blessings.

Alison : Have a wonderful day.

Bradley: Same to you. Thank you so much, both of you. Take care.

Alison : Thank you.

Bradley: Bye bye.

Alison : That was so different than I thought. First of all.  He’s so open and interesting, and, um- i really want to do this.

Jean: I do too, so I let’s try to find a practitioner.

Alison : Yeah, I think that and I want to do the, um, the Hawaiian prayer.

Jean: Yeah. I think the doing the Hawaiian prayer. That is something that you can do on your own. Just hold an intention, right? Either for someone or just in general. Like I do think holding your hand on your heart and saying that prayer, I mean, try it or deny it. Like it really might shift something in your subconscious that that you don’t even know you’re holding on to.

Alison : Yeah. And I do think, you know, Eckhart Tolle  talks about the pain body, and I think that this kind of reminded me of that, that you have this energy kind of trapped in you, that it’s challenging to release. And I think I think he’s right. I think that the world is really at a tipping point. Yeah. And that, you know, if, if more people can move in love, it’s only going to be better for everybody.

Jean: Right.

Alison :  you know.

Jean: Yeah. And I, yeah, I, I just think his work is so important. Just clearing the heart energy. And as he said, you know, so many religions and and ancient civilizations, they knew the power was coming through that heart center, the heart chakra, whatever you want to call it. And reminds me of because I was raised Catholic, you know, when you go into church, you’d see a picture of Jesus, you know, pointing to his heart –saying, this is where it’s at. Right here. Right here.

Alison : Exactly.

Jean: It’s not he’s not pointing to his head. He’s pointing to his heart.

Alison : Or his phone, his iPhone.

Jean: Or his butt.hahah

Alison : He’s pointing right here.

Alison : That’s exactly right. And I, you know, I want to be able to release some of the things that I feel might have clouded my ability to be open.  you know, and I think what he said sometimes I have felt that way, like as an outsider when I was younger, and I would love to have that cleared. So I’m really going to I’m really going to try to do the book. And I think you and I should do the muscle testing.

Jean: We’re going to try it all and we’ll report back to you.

Alison : That’s right.

Alison : We’ll let you know if my if she breaks my arm because I’m holding it up. There you have it. Well, I hope you guys enjoyed this. It was really great to meet him. And it’s, The Heart Code and, um, um, let’s, you know, move in love, right?

Jean: Move in love. I love that,

Jean: I love that.

Alison : All right. Have a great day.

Jean: Bye.

Alison : Oh my goodness. Okay. I’m so prepared today wait I just have to adjust this. There we go. Hi, Jean.

Jean: Okay. I love that we are back.  In our uniform. Black top and jeans.

Alison : That’s right. And we never talk about it. And yet we’re like, oh, look, we wore the same thing again. There we go. Except Jean is a different season. Jean has a turtleneck and long sleeves and I have a short sleeve, so we’re covering both bases.

Jean: Why am I wearing this in like 80 degree weather? Because it’s really chilly in my house.

Alison : It is. It is. It’s fresh and cool in here, right?

Jean: Yeah, yeah.

Alison : Um, and, uh, so you have met someone that we’re interviewing today that you know, right?

Jean: Yes, I, I know his husband, but I also know Reverend Keith Horowitz from the Agape Church.

Alison : And Aum & Garden…https://aumandgarden.com

Jean: And Aum & Garden. And, um, he’s just an amazing, brilliant spark of light. I love whenever I talk to Keith, he’s just so open, so available, and he always responds with something of wisdom. And I just think he’s going to benefit whoever listens. If just you and I listen, this is going to be an awesome conversation.

Alison : That’s right, I can’t wait. I mean, I know Aum & Garden – it’s this beautiful shop on Ventura Boulevard in Studio City,   https://aumandgarden.com and I know Jerome who runs it. So I’m excited to actually talk to Keith and see… I looked him up and he looked so interesting. Like he just looks, you know, like he’s got a lot to offer and had a really interesting life story. And I think he’s going to be great.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison : So are you ready.

Jean: Here we go.

Alison : In our black and jeans. Here we go.

Keith: Hey there!

Alison : So quickly and snappy. Hi. Hi. I’ve met you before. I’m Allison.

Keith: Yes. Nice to see you again.

Alison : Nice to see you.

Jean: Oh, Keith, it’s great to see you.

Keith: Likewise. Likewise. Thank you for having me.

Alison : Um, I we were talking that I looked up a lot about your bio and your whole experience is so moving. And I was wondering if you could just share a little bit for our listeners, how you came to be where you are today and what you’re doing.

Keith: Well, I’d like to say it was quite a journey and it was, but, um, it all started out, you know, I think fairly typical, um, in terms of, I was, you know, brought up to kind of, you know, chase money, career and go for all kinds of you know, I’d say traditional goals. Um, and I didn’t really have a lot of guidance, but that’s what I did. Um, and I, you know, made my way into a career that I just happened into. It wasn’t really my conscious choice, i was just following money. Um, and I was in political advertising for, um, a little about ten years, um, was what I ultimately ended up in. And I worked my way up the corporate ladder and I was making a lot of money. Um, and I was never more miserable in my life. And then, uh, and I was, you know, I was drinking, smoking, partying, which was actually kind of part of the industry. Um, and, and then one day when I was, uh, for a couple years, I had been suffering, uh, it was a very gradual onset, uh, what ultimately ended up in severe panic attacks, I would say even debilitating, debilitating my ability to participate in even flying at one point. And as it got progressively worse, uh, two years before I had what I would call a transformational, mystical experience.

Keith: Um, a friend of mine had kept suggesting that maybe I try meditation, maybe I try prayer, maybe I try, you know, yoga and, and balancing my chakras. And I was like, no, no, I’m you just keep that woo woo stuff. And, um, but when I finally hit a point where I was at at the end of my rope and I tried to hide most of it, um, I would suppress it, which did not help at all. Um, and I was going to the doctor and they were getting ready to put me on all kinds of prescriptions. And that’s when I was just like, I had kind of a bit of a breakdown. And I said, you know what? I will explore this woo woo stuff that you were talking about. And, and that’s when I got introduced to the divine energy medicine, uh, that world and I experienced like an Energetic like lift of anxiety and stress, like lift off of my, my being. And I felt so relieved and I didn’t know it at the time, but I experienced grace and I experienced a spiritual magnificence. Um, I didn’t know what it was at the time, but I became ravenous for it. And so I dove into everything I could get my hands on, uh, in terms of divine energy, medicine, meditation, energy fields.

Keith: Um, and the short version is that I basically dove in hook, line and sinker with a very healthy, healthy all along the way, skepticism as to like, okay, let’s just make sure this is real. Um, and uh, because I wasn’t into any charlatan experiences and, uh, and as I progressed, I just kept having healings after healings, and eventually i didn’t understand how it all worked, but I wanted to understand how it all worked scientifically…. I didn’t even know that I was a scientific nerd at the time, but I am a spiritual and scientific nerd and I want to prove spirituality. I don’t just take it, you know, at face value. Um, and it’s like, no, it’s got to be experiential. And so, and that’s what led me, led me to, um, to Agape International Spiritual Center, which led me to a realm of spiritual study where it was like, oh, that’s why this is and how this works and the laws that govern it from regular laws of physics to the laws of metaphysics, um, and the healings of, ah, like being free from anxiety and panic attacks and all the things that came with it, um, is, you know, been worth everything aside from the bliss that comes with it.

Alison : Right. Thank you.

Jean: And so you became a minister…. You took it…

Keith: I-  if you had asked me when I when all this started, if I was going to be doing it, I would have said, are you crazy? That is not. No, no, that’s not happening. I just started taking classes in everything from Reiki to ultimately what I became passionate about, which is integrated energy therapy. Um, then I took all the classes in the New Thought, ageless wisdom teachings at Agape, um, from meditation to mysticism to, you know, just everything. And, and then lo and behold, I was in the practitioner studies program that I was just like, well, yeah, this feels right. And I just did it. Um, but when I, after four years of, uh, you know, going through what the two years of pre-reqs and the two years of practitioner studies to become an Agape licensed spiritual practitioner, then then I became clear I actually understood what passion was, which I had never understood or experienced before. And then I was like, oh yes, I will be entering the ministerial program. Not because I necessarily wanted to, because there was a lot of reasons not to do it. A lot of time, a lot of money. Um, but because my soul wouldn’t settle for anything less.

Alison : I love that there’s that saying that we’ve heard that says, you begin chasing spirituality and then spirituality starts chasing you.

Keith: Yes, definitely.

Alison : Yeah. Can I ask you a question just about what you just said? Do you have to believe integrated spirituality, uh, energy healings in order for it to work?

Keith: No, as a matter of fact, the reason I say no is because most people don’t even know what they believe. Some people think they believe one thing, but they actually believe something else. Some people think they know…They believe certain things about prosperity, but they don’t. You’ll know what you believe, how it out pictures. So a lot of people think they don’t believe in something and then they actually experience a miracle. But there was a part of them that actually really did believe they just weren’t aware of it. So yes, I’ve had some of the most meetings still… I still have a healthy I will test everything, right? Um, but some of my greatest experiences with clients have been people who are very skeptical. Um, and all of a sudden they have an enormous mystical experience.

Alison : Oh thank you. That’s great. Yeah.

Jean: That really speaks to, um, what you just said before proving, proving that consciousness informs matter.

Keith: Yes. Yeah. Because, you know, that’s, I think been part of the… (oh sorry)

Jean: No you go no, you.

Keith: I mean, that’s, I think where traditional religion has let people down to some degree. It’s like, just trust us. Just believe it. Just these are the rules. And just follow that. And you know, where we say like, have a direct experience. If you, if you’re not feeling it, if it’s not, you know, if it’s not a direct experience, then it’s just rote and it doesn’t have the meaning and it has to have the meaning, um, in order for it to be real, you know, and what is real, real is– you feel it, you know it. It’s a, the thoughts, words and deeds all line up together. Um, so it has to be real. So to me, thankfully, um, I need for things to be real. And that’s why I, I, you know, one of my favorite mystics of all time, um, is George Washington Carver. Um, and you know, he is like the perfect mystic because he was a scientist and he was deeply spiritual and he would go into meditation and he would, you know, known as the man who talked to the flowers and he would go out and what… And I’ll keep this short.

Keith: He was just… If you want to look into him, whoever might be curious. He was born in a time when he should not. He had all the disadvantages born at a time where just…He’s a black man right after slavery ends, and all the things are pointing against him in the South, um, and yet none of that mattered because he was in a mystical realm, and he would go out and commune and say, tell me your secrets, whether it was to the peanut or the flowers. And then he would sit in meditation and that energy would come and he’d journal it out, and then he’d go into the laboratory and he would see like, was it right? And of course it was. Um, and I think that’s a perfect blueprint of how to like, oh, well, let me see, like, let me check out what is all this? You know, for me, the law of creation is, is where it’s at. Um, a lot of people think the law of attraction is where it’s at, but the law of attraction is nothing without the law of creation.

Alison : Nice. Nice.

Jean: Okay. Well,You’re already building my passion, and I know today, and I hope you come back again, Reverend Keith, but today we’re going to talk about true abundance and prosperity. So given those words, what comes…. I think most people think finance when you hear abundance and prosperity…. Let’s hear it from you what does true abundance mean?

Keith: Well, first and foremost, I think that’s the perfect place because I was going to say, if you’re going for prosperity, if you’re going for abundance, you have to choose. Are you picking joy, genuine prosperity, or are you going for artificial prosperity? And I think most of the world is looking for artificial prosperity, where it’s like, it’s just the rich, kind of like what I was doing back in my corporate days. I just need the house. I need the car. I need the whatever it was. Some people, it’s like I need fame. Um, and it’s like, okay, no, genuine. I mean, if you look up the word prosperity, um, it’s auspicious, it’s about thriving, it’s about cooperation and it’s complimentary. It’s always now I’m paraphrasing the definition, but it’s to be prosperous is a state of being. So it radiates from you. Um, and it always includes a win win. Um, you know, there’s no competition in true prosperity. So to, you know, so to go practical versus, uh, you know, principled, um, is what you look at. And there’s a couple things I was actually looking online and I was like, well, let me see, like, you know, the difference between practical prosperity versus spiritual prosperity. And there’s three things that they have in common. And that would be being a visionary. Yeah, there’s a vision. So if you look at, you know, Apple or any of the other big companies, there’s a vision we’re going to be the best computer company there is. Well, and it’s usually has passion in there. So it’s like, all right, so visionary.

Keith: I’m going to put that in both columns. Um, then there’s a part in the practical where it’s customer centric, which is what they would say. But for us, I would say how that serves others, how it serves our self and how it serves others. Those kind of were on the same page pretty much. And then there’s, um, kind of when you’re in the practical standpoint, it’s like there’s an operational efficiency. That’s a big part of being prosperous. And I would say spiritual efficiency is also really good. There’s where the similarities are– but then when you get down to things like budget driven, where it’s like, oh, how does this serve our stockholders? Or whether it’s competitive and we’re going to be the best and we’ll win at all costs, or whether it’s profit driven, you know, those are the things that we’re spiritual and practical start to separate. Um, and so to be truly, you know, prosperous, what I think the actual essence of prosperity is you kind of have to choose the spiritual route, um, which is going to be include generosity, generosity in a vibrational frequency, which syncs up with the law of circulation means that you circulate from a place of kindness and authenticity. Um, I was thinking about like, I’ve been working with doing this…. So for 25 years is when the shift took place. And then, um, and I started working with people on a regular basis probably 20 years ago. I’ve worked with millionaires, even close to billionaires, and I’ve worked with people that are, you know, trying to get their rent covered.

Keith: Um, and I’ve met people, rich people who are stingy, um, very prosperous, very, you know, financially sound, um, but not very generous. And I’ve met people who are generous to a fault who, you know, what’s the old expression– can’t rub two pennies together and, um, and it’s like, so what does being in integrity mean? Yes. You can be what would be called practically prosperous without being in integrity with spiritual law. Um, and there’s a whole bunch of reasons that that can happen. Um, and you can be in integrity to a degree, but not necessarily experiencing it, but then you have to be self-aware enough to find out, you know, the key ingredients. Worthiness is a huge ingredients to true prosperity, self-esteem and self-love and, and worthiness is huge. I just did a five week class on this whole thing where we dug deep into all of this. Um, deservedness. And you know, What does that mean? As far as my deservedness and the deservedness of others, if I’m judging others. Um, and you know, you know, what are my opinions about rich people, like looking at these kinds of things. Those are clues as to what could be inhibiting if I’m not experiencing, you know, like financial success. Um, and, uh, you know, to really get into, but to make it genuine is one of the key ingredients and the worthiness, the generosity and aligning everything with all of that with passion and purpose and vision, um, to me is what really quantifies and qualifies, uh, the authentic prosperity.

Alison : That’s beautiful. Um, when you say that there are people that cannot meet like their rent say, right. So then that brings up to me, um, and if they’re working towards trying to be in an abundance consciousness. How does self-blame not come in?

Keith: Well, yeah, and that would definitely come into like, what am I doing wrong? Um, but so for me, for an example, um, it’s a silly story, but it’s a point of being self-aware. So I, after I left the corporate world and my belief system subconsciously was work hard and make a lot of money and do it at any cost. And, you know, my dad, um, he didn’t really pound it into us, but he was just like, you know, it sunk in somehow. My subconscious, if you want to make more money, then work more. If five days isn’t enough, then six days. And if six days isn’t enough, then seven days if you really want it, you know? And I was like. And I always was like….. So my surface mind was going, but my subconscious sucked it up because there I was, I was working really hard. I would work sometimes 50, 60, 70 hours a week when we were in crunch season and it was very. And it added to all the stress. And so as I woke up and started to become self-aware, I, I remember I was going through a meditation and I’m going deep into what ultimately came out about what I thought about rich people and how that came to be was I became aware that like, if you brought up the, I, the if anybody ever brought up a conversation about British royalty, I would just go on a tirade about like, oh my God, that is the most ostentatious, the most egregious, like the most self-indulgent.

Keith: I had everything not good to say about royalty, especially the British royalty, because it’s just like you just handed it on a silver platter and then you, you’re just special because of your bloodline. Um, and I had a real judgment about it. There was an edge on it. And I was right, I was right, but I wasn’t. So, um, what that took me to was I followed. It was Rich people can be evil, bad.  They’re greedy. They do things out of integrity. You know, they’re entitled. All these things. And if I want to be rich, but my subconscious is saying that’s what they are, and I don’t want to be that, i have two opposing energies in my subconscious. And that’s where I was having to work hard for the money, because I was working in opposition to the part that knew I deserved it. Um, and so I had to let go of all that judgment. Um, and it was somewhat of a process. And, and then after I did through, you know, healing and tension, you got to bring intention in.

Keith: It’s like I have a formula. I call it the assess, address, bless.  You assess what’s going on. Oh, what’s going on in my, my financial field or my prosperity? Then you address it. I got to bring in an intention. What am I going to do about it? And then you bless it. Then you bring it into a place of prayer, of meditation, of really activating spiritual transformation. Um, so I assessed what was going on. Then I started to address it and then I was like, oh, okay, I’m going to liberate myself from that. And then all of a sudden I had just so much more compassion. Coincidentally, I started seeing some specials about like the royal family and how all the horrible things that you have to go through, you know, with all the, you know, being in a fishbowl and everybody judging your every move and move and all that stuff. And I just had more compassion and I realized, you know, that…. So all that judgment was gone and all of a sudden financial prosperity and abundance started flowing more. And I was like, well, isn’t that a coincidence in the laboratory of my life, right?

Alison : Yeah. Right. Exactly.

Jean: I mean, it’s such a call to consciousness, like to really wake up to what you’re thinking, what you’re believing, the conditionings that we all have. I mean, we all have it. And, um. Okay, so so on that note, what are some easy daily habits that someone can start to, to do in their life? Like they don’t know too much about Agape or science of mind philosophy, but they’re, they are anxious about their finances. Where, where would someone begin to address their consciousness so that they could have more peace and bring in ultimately more abundance financially?

Keith: Well, first i would say um, three books that I highly recommend. One that I would say is pretty secular. Um, it’s called True Wealth by Ken Honda. Um, and it’s just such a nice take on looking at all of this from so many different angles. I highly recommend that because you want to be inspired to do something. So if you’re reading a book like Spiritual Economics by Eric Butterworth or The Four Spiritual Laws of Success by Edwin Gaines, those three books, I think are fantastic for authentic prosperity. But then you have to be able to be self-aware and explore, explore a concept like generosity. What does it mean to be generous?

Keith: Generosity is a key ingredient to prosperity. Whether it’s generous with love, whether it’s generous with money, whether it’s generous with your time and your nurturance and your support. And you have to look at it from both sides of the coin. And I love that I can use a coin for this analogy. Um, because the one side is how am I at receiving and how am I at giving? Um, and I had to look at that. And I also, as I was looking, I noticed that I had a pattern as I looked back and you really have to have a meditation practice or a contemplative or reflective meditation. You don’t have to like get all deep and “OM” and all that all the time, but very going into reflective.

Keith: And I was going back and I was, I had some issues on both sides of the coin. I wasn’t really good at receiving. I noticed that when people would give me compliments, I got, i felt uncomfortable when people gave me gifts, i also felt like, oh, and there was a that was tied to some worthiness. It was normal in terms of what, you know, how many people feel. Um, but that doesn’t make it natural and it doesn’t make it prosperous. So I started to look at that and I was like, oh, there’s a part of me that’s rejecting my goods. So my assessment, then I went into the addressing, which is I want to know what it’s like to be good at receiving my good. Um, and that was my question slash intention because the question was to bring about the intention, which is, yeah, the fulfillment of that. Um, and it was uncomfortable, it was uncomfortable to shift into a place of, I call it divine receptivity because it’s humble, it’s pure, it’s kind, it’s loving. And it’s like, and it takes getting used to. Um, so to look at that and then also look at the flip side of that, how am I in generosity and giving? Um, and, um, you know, I have a quick story, I don’t know if we have time, but I have a short story on the giving part.

Alison : Please.

Keith: Um, I, um, I had gone hiking, came home five days later, I had this burning, burning rash and I was in a financial freedom class at the time, and we were studying tithing, giving. You know, like, what do you do with, you know, giving money to whether it’s an organization or whatever it was? And, um, anyway, I got this burning rash across just below my belly button on my lower belly and, and I didn’t know what it was. And I scheduled an appointment to go. I asked a friend of mine for a dermatologist, and I went to the dermatologist and they looked at it and it was like, it was like this big, like eight inches by three inches. And it was painful. And I said, well, it’s not skin eating bacteria and it’s nothing bad… I’ll give you some cortisone cream. And they sent me home. They didn’t exactly know what it was. And I was the cream did nothing. But then I was like, well, your body always tells you what’s going on, so I’m going to sit with it because I have no choice. I can’t every time I move, it just burns.

Keith: So I’m just going to lay down. And I hovered my hands over it and I was like, you know, what do you need to tell me body about this? And I had to go deep and it was like, oh, you’re being cheap and you’re not being generous enough. You’re kind of like tight. And the only way I can describe it is most people, if you’ve ever gone to a restaurant and you’re just not in the generous mood, and when it comes time to tip, maybe you’re just like a little like, ah, I don’t know if I want to give. I go just a little bit under the 20%. I’m going to round down and I’m just not feeling really generous. But you know, you do that, but you don’t know why, but it doesn’t feel good. So that’s kind of the generosity I was speaking of. And so I was like, oh, so I’m listening to it. And it was basically my body was telling me to be more generous. Well, that happens to be the part of your body. Finances in front of your body is giving back of your body is receiving. So it was in the giving in the financial sector of my sacrum at the at the bottom of my, you know, belly and well, that’s just not a coincidence.

Keith: And every time I would think about being generous, the pain would go away. Um, and I had all weekend to be with it and the rash started to dissipate and dissipate as I was, you know, meditating and accepting that and then thinking of ways like, of how to liberate myself from being in not in the mood. Um, and then I finally went to my regular physician on Monday to, um, because I couldn’t get into him before that, it was too late on Friday. And he’s like, oh, that’s just poison oak. And I was like, oh my God. So, um, just the way it was set up for my world to, because if I had gone to him, he would have given me steroids on that Friday and I probably wouldn’t have thought twice about it afterwards. Um, and this made me think twice. Um, so again, I went into the laboratory and discovered that your body doesn’t lie. It will tell you what’s going on. And even if it’s poison oak, Um, and, uh, and it was very liberating. And it’s like to be more generous and not let your subconscious emotional body run the show. It’s like, oh, I just don’t feel like it. Right? Why, why don’t you feel like it? Generosity. If you had no issues, would just be your natural state of being.

Alison : Yeah. So, so just about that, uh, first of all, how much do you tip? No, I’m only teasing.

Keith: I like to tip generously.

Alison : Me too. Um, I was I was a waiter, a waitress for a while. Um, uh, that idea of being generous, even in love. How can you be generous and still have self care?

Keith: You know, um, it’s really interesting. People don’t realize that a lot of times we have reactions because we’re just being plain old selfish. And I don’t mean selfish in a, you know, in a way that’s like I’m trying to be, um uh, withholding …most of us, we just don’t know why. But, you know, I remember so my husband and I were, were having a– every year we live in a neighborhood with lots of Halloween trick or treaters. And every year we have trick or treaters and we usually have a few people and we have like a little dinner. And then we answer the door and all that stuff and hand out the candy. And so I had cooked and I had set everything out and, um, and our guests were here and then the doorbell kept ringing and I kept having, I was like, oh, okay, I got to get up and go answer and give the candy. And after like the 20th time I was and you know, this is like several years in the making. I’m like, uh, maybe I could get a couple bites in. Can you go answer the door? Um, and so, and I was getting irritated. And when you get irritated, you want to withhold your love. And I wasn’t really paying attention to his energy field. Um, so anyway, later I, we had an argument about it and then I thought, um, and the argument was very superficial. It’s like, I’m right, you’re wrong and vice versa. And so I just decided, you know what? I’m going to be compassionate no matter what. I’m just I don’t know how I know I’m right in this, but I’m going to just see, is there a possibility that there’s another vantage point? So I sat and I really went into a place of compassion and I didn’t want to because you can feel like when you get real sensitive, you can feel when your heart kind of shuts down and I’m withholding my love and it’s open.

Keith: And so then I said, you know, and we started talking and he started sharing when it when I created a safe place, which was not being right. Um, I created a safe place and I started asking questions and he said, you know, when he was little, um, his brother was, uh, quite a bit older than him had gone off to um, Vietnam. Was it Vietnam? Whichever the war was, was in the 60s. Yeah. Um, and he was probably four, I think, at the time. And a knock came on the door and it was a soldier, and they were letting his parents know that his brother was killed in, in combat…. And, um, and he was picked up and rushed off and, um, he just remembered that it was an exceedingly emotional and a devastating time for his parents. And, um, so the knocks on the door brought back those feelings, which created a subconscious not wanting to answer the door, um, for the trick or treaters. And it was like, oh, how could I, I’m just selfishly thinking you’re just not pulling your weight. And it was like, well, there was more to it than you’re just not pulling your weight. It’s like there was actually a subconscious trigger every time they would come to the door. So that made a huge difference. And it made it so I could be more generous with love. Um, and it’s like, you really have to be willing. You can’t stay the same and expect things to be different.

Jean: Yeah. That is so true.

Alison : It almost makes me cry. That story though.

Keith: I cried during that time. I was like, because it was just like, who would have thought? There’s always nobody withholds or treats people poorly without some reason. Um, and, and it’s like, so, and it builds up that compassion and that compassion, it spills out into all other areas of life because integrity is, is true compassion, um, which, which is an ingredient for prosperity, because integrity is a, for true prosperity or, you know, um, genuine prosperity and abundance. And it’s like, so to not withhold those things. It’s, it’s, you know, that’s why I started to understand, oh, the meek shall inherit the Earth is because to, to you have to be meek, which means you have to be… I always I coined that it’s benevolently vulnerable. I will be vulnerable in a benevolent way so that there can be transformation instead of stagnation. Um, and it really makes a difference. It’s not always easy.

Alison : No, no.

Jean: Wow.

Alison : Because I sometimes I have to say I want to be right. I want someone to acquiesce sometimes.

Keith: And sometimes we even are right. And still there’s more to the story.

Alison : That’s exactly right. There’s more to the story.

Jean: I mean, it’s like. And it’s that other phrase that says, do you want to be right or do you want to Be peace or be happy. And then I want to be right. I don’t care.  laughting

Alison :  Not you though.

Jean: No, I think, but that’s so true. just look how that circles into having more compassion for our fellow humans. We don’t know the conditioning. We’ve all been through and endured and why we, why we act. And, um…

Alison : Well, can I ask you something along the same line? If you, if you have in your orbit, um, someone or something, I think it’s going to be a, someone that is, um needing from you financial stability constantly. Then it’s not like your husband or your kid or a relative even they’re needing that from you. Is it generous to keep giving them that? Is that is that generosity or is it is like, like, because sometimes it feels uncomfortable.

Keith: Yeah. And it’s a case by case basis. Um, because, you know, I grew up, I was taught not verbally, but by demonstration, like you throw money at stuff. Just like, okay, and you can throw. And I’ve seen lots of people. It’s like you throw money. When I am in 2005, I, um, I had been volunteering at an at risk youth organization in South Central and they asked me to be a mentor in this mentoring program for a year. And, and it was just an amazing, amazing organization. Um, and, but you had to, you know, go get all processed and fingerprinted and all that stuff. And, and they matched you up with a kid and they really emphasized that you cannot buy your way into this. Do not buy them gifts. You can basically, you can get them food when you go out. And if it’s their birthday, you can get them a present. But it’s about creating something deeper than what money could buy. And I didn’t realize at the time that that was like just that was kind of new because I, the whole time that I kept wanting to buy stuff for him. Um, and I was like, no, connect, connect, connect. Um, so there was that. And then there was, um, but the case by case basis was, um, I had somebody that, um, classes I teach, uh, once upon a time people would do a payment plan. Um, and they would make a deposit and then they would payment after the goods were delivered. And I had two people pretty much close to each other that entered into payment plans. And, um, and then one of them, um, both of them actually kept stalling afterwards, stalling and stalling and dragging out the payments and having excuses as to why.

Keith: And I kept checking in and I kept checking in, am I to forgive this? Um, and just that’s just to be part of their experience that they get to experience what it’s like for somebody to just forgive something. And in one of the cases, it was definitely forgive their debt. And I did, and they were so appreciative. And the other one, for whatever the reason was, it was like, no, they need to be able to find the muscle to take care of this. And so I was like, okay. And it took the first one over a year to pay off. Oh, no, they, they, I forgave it. It took the second one over a year. Actually, it was close to two years to pay it off. But then in both cases, the forgiving and the one that it didn’t they um, they both came back years later and were like, just so generous. They had both made, uh, you know, really hit some, a lot of prosperity and success. And they were so grateful. Um, and so it’s like, yeah, sometimes it is really wonderful. Um, you know, I kind of look at things, if you’re going to loan money, you better make sure you’re probably looking at it as just being a gift. Um, and, you know, and so, but to, you have to evaluate every situation because yeah, if people get used to handouts, they, you know, it’s you got to teach them how to fish sometimes.

Alison : Teach them how to fish. Exactly. Right.

Jean: Not always give the fish.

Keith: Right. Right.

Jean: So you need to really give some contemplation, thought conscious thought, whatever to what’s coming up. It is a case by case.

Alison : And it’s also what feels right for you if you’ve given it some time, not just that knee jerk egoic response of like, I gotta save you.

Alison : Yeah, exactly. You really have to spend some time.

Keith: Yeah. And as a, you know, direct, I’m the spiritual director at our center and we have to look at that. I remember when I was working the prayer lines at Agape, we get, you know, you’re sitting in the room and you’re answering all the prayers. And sometimes we would get calls from people who were like, my rent is due tomorrow. I don’t have it. And I would be like, okay, we’re going to go into prayer. And they’re like, I don’t need prayer. I just need money. I need you to give me money. And it was like, okay, you know that those are two intentions that aren’t matching. You’re calling a prayer line, not a donation line. Um, and that’s kind of not the way it is, but as a spiritual director, there is a part in our community where it’s like, you have to look at like, well, where can we and when we do, we have to have people fill out an evaluation form and we have to find out like, hey, what’s your intention? What are your goals? Um, we have to give them a structure because it’s like if you’re just saying, give me money and I’m just going to keep doing the same thing I always do that always leads leaves me in a place of having to ask for money. Then we’re not helping. We’re just, you know, putting a band aid on the inevitable, which is like the consciousness has to be transformed. So even the simple questions of what is your intention about this? What are your goals and all that, it helps start putting the energy in a particular direction. Um, and it’s, you know, and I, we were there almost when, when I quit my job in the corporate world, and I went from six figures down to four figures. It was dicey for a while. Um, almost to the point where we almost had to declare bankruptcy. Um, and thankfully, that’s when I started to do all my prosperity work and it went and authentic prosperity. Oh my God is so much more delicious and satisfying than, you know, the, the inauthentic or the artificial prosperity.

Alison : Yes, totally. And just before we end, can you discuss a little bit about want?

Keith: Oh, yeah.

Alison : When you want something?  Should i want something or should I just put it out there and ignore it? Like, can you give us a little idea how to navigate that?

Jean: And  is wanting and desire the same thing?

Keith: I definitely do… Well in my world, want goes with the ego. I want the job, I want this, I want that and it’s usually very superficial desire. And I’m talking about capital D desire, is the impulse from your soul. Your soul is desiring to experience and express things. And when my intention matches my desire, then I’m a house united, or I’m on the same page within my own beingness. When my want, which oftentimes is not a match to my desire, then I’ve got one foot on the gas and one foot on the brake. And, and I’m going to probably experience…. And it also, you know, when I follow my wants, it’s kind of a waste of time, um, because it’s very inefficient and it might take you down a hole, uh, you know, a rabbit hole that you didn’t really want to go down. Now, the good news is at any point you can, you know, shift on a dime to come back to desire, but getting familiar with desire, um, takes getting used to because most of us have been trained to be familiar with want, And also want comes with a lot of impatience, and I used to be the most impatient person in the world. I think when you looked in the dictionary you’d see my picture. And so. But oh my God, I will, i will just get on my soapbox about patience, because it is one of the key ingredients of faith, one of the key ingredients of optimism. And it is so delicious. And I’m not talking about the drum your nails patience. I’m talking about the patience where it’s like, oh, time expands patience  where you know everything is good patience. Um, it really makes a difference. So yeah, that’s the way I look at want versus desire.

Alison : Thank you. Yeah. You are, you are just a fountain, a fountain of just beautiful ideas. Thank you so much for today.

Keith: Oh, well thank you. My pleasure. Yeah. I mean, you know, if I was going to pat myself on the back, I would just say like, I’m not stopping. I’m gonna keep going and go deeper and higher than ever before and continue to use this, this laboratory that is our lives to like, let’s do some spiritual experimentation.

Alison : How can our listeners, before we ask you our two final questions, how can our listeners find you or hear more about you?

Keith: Well, I am the spiritual director at Soul Center,OC. We’re an Agapé affiliate in Irvine. So I speak every Sunday almost unless I’m off. Um, and Wednesdays we do a meditation or they can go to Keithhorowitz.com to find out um, you know about me or Soul Center.Com.  https://soulcenteroc.com

Alison : Thank you.

Jean: Wonderful. And then I’m going to make sure that those three books that you mentioned, Rev Keith, are in the transcripts. So whoever is listening can take a look at those,

Alison : Right.

Jean: Alright, so we have two last questions. As Allison just said, what does the term inside wink mean to you?

Keith: I love that it feels like your soul is winking to you. It feels like it’s in your heart where you like, like we were just talking about your desire. You’re feeling a connection. It’s an it’s like, you know, I mean, to me, it’s just becomes more personal. It becomes more intimate is what it’s like. Your, your soul is like this way. This is how you get there.

Alison : I love that –  this way, I love that.

Alison : And then, you know, probably the toughest question we ask anybody, pie cake or ice cream?

Keith: Oh, well, definitely I’m going with pie.

Alison : Really great. What kind.

Keith: Fruit pie. Um, yeah, I mean I’ll try to keep it as healthy as I can with lots of fruit. Um, but I do, I even before making it healthy pie was. Yeah, maybe a little ice cream on top.

Alison : You’re with us.  I like them all, so I have a hard time.

Jean: But what fruit pie. I’m just curious.

Keith: I love strawberry rhubarb.

Alison : Yeah.

Keith: Which was a later in life discovery. Um, so blueberry and strawberry were always the ones until strawberry rhubarb came along.

Alison : Right? Because it’s got like a it’s got like a tang, right? Like, I just love that. I agree with you.

Jean: It’s a great blend of strawberry and rhubarb.

Keith: Yeah, totally. Yeah. i didn’t even know what rhubarb was until I had that, and I was like, oh, this is really good.

Alison : Bring that to the lab.

Keith: Yes.

Alison : Exactly.

Jean: Manifesting more rhubarb.

Keith: Yes.

Alison : Thank you so much. Keith, this was wonderful.

Keith: Oh my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Jean: I had a Great time chatting with you. And I really hope you you’ll come back on our show and we’ll talk about another topic.

Keith: Absolutely. Anytime.

Alison : We would love that.  have a great afternoon.

Keith: All right.

Alison : Yes. Say hi to Jerome for me.

Keith: I certainly will.

Jean: Okay.

Alison : Much love.

Keith: You too.

Alison : Bye.

Jean: Well, he hit it out of the park.

Alison : He’s so nice. And, you know, I realized when I saw him.

Jean: He is so nice.

Alison : He’s so nice. I realized when I saw him that I had met him once at Aum & Garden. But we never spoke. And I didn’t know that he was such a wealth of just beautiful thoughts. And I like how he really clarified things in such a thoughtful way. And it was all about I, when I got out of it was about taking a minute and taking time to really think and go deep. Like, like when he like, like, take a minute with your consciousness with yourself in a quiet place and really give it time to think and see where you’re headed and what you’re doing. I really thought that was so not just like, just follow these rules and everything’ll like, take a minute. Like when he was talking about those two people that he had different experiences with about, about paying for something. And I thought, look at that. Like he really just thought about them each differently and consciously,  and made two different decisions, and he was fine with it. He wasn’t like, well, this is the rule I follow, He took a minute to hear his heart.

Jean:  and I too love that. And I think that is really about what spirituality is about. It’s becoming conscious in in your thoughts,  and therefore in your words and in your deeds, right? Like not just going off of conditioning or habitual, like, why, why am I afraid right now? What’s going on within me? Um, so I really enjoyed him. I we could have spoken for much longer.

Alison : I loved him, I think maybe to have him back and discuss something else, because he really was so open to the questions.

Jean: And I loved his stories that he shared. So yeah, thank you so much, Reverend Keith.

Alison : That was that was wonderful and we hope that, uh, you check him out. We’ll include everything on the bio and, uh, and just have a great day and take some time to hear your own heart maybe

Jean: I love that.

Alison :  Take a little minute.

Jean: Right,

Alison : Right. Have a great day.

Jean: Bye.

Alison : Bye.

Alison : Hello, Jean. I warmed up my throat.

Jean: You did…I thought you were going to, like, sing an operatic song for me.

Alison : You never know that could happen. Um. So I bought a car.

Jean: Yeah,

Alison : Because my old car was fading, and I my my, my, my lovely husband’s like, it’s time. And we did it. But then when I bought the car from Subaru, they said, okay, you get a gift for buying the car. And I’m like, well, I got the car. Right. Like, don’t I get to take this home? And, um, and I saw that it was a place called, Gifts for Good. And they give you like a selection. You can get this candle made by this person. It’s all made by organizations and gives money back to organizations, and I thought it was such a great idea that I ran to you and said, you’re not going to believe this. We have to talk to this person, Laura Hertz.

Jean: And so we’re doing it. We’re talking to Laura Hertz, who is the founder of Gifts for Good. And I think she did this back in 2016. And she is- talk about a force for good.

Alison : And her resume is like a novel, like she’s been doing philanthropic work for, you know, since she was young. And, um, I just can’t wait to meet her because the guy at Subaru was like, oh, yeah, she came and visited us and thanked us. Like, I’m like, wow, like, I kind of love that, you know?

Jean: Yep.

Alison : And so I’m excited because anyone that names their company, Gifts for Good.

Jean: We’re all about that.

Alison : We’re all about goodness, aren’t we? Good good, good. Well, here she is, Laura.

Laura: I know. Great to meet you guys too. Good to see you in person. I obviously checked out all your your Instagram posts and some of the past podcasts and I was like, I’m excited to be with them. You guys look like a joy. So excited.

Alison : We’re excited to meet you. I’m Allison.

Jean: And I’m Jean.

Alison : And I bought a Subaru and they said, hey, for buying this Subaru, you get a gift. And I’m like, what are you, what are you talking about? And then like through this brochure and then they, I, I started to ask them about the brochure and they were like, oh, it’s Laura and it’s Gifts for Good, and I got some LGBTQ socks.

Laura: So amazing. I love those.

Alison :  Yeah. So what you’re doing… I was saying to Jean, we have to meet you because what you’re doing is just so smart because it makes philanthropy for corporations so easy, right?

Laura: It does. And that’s what the best part about what we do. I mean, I drove a Subaru before we even partnered with them. So it’s just such a full circle moment. I had my Forester and, you know, my husband’s dad actually got in like an accident with a Subaru. It saved his life. And I’ve just been super connected to that brand. So I love what we do with Subaru. It’s just a great example of what we could do by taking, you know, this budget that companies were typically spending on just cheap junk drawer promotional swag and using it to change people’s lives. So yeah, with Subaru, it’s my favorite partnership that we have with the company because they’re a brand, as everybody knows, that really lives what they do. And they’ve always been, you know, a part of their brand and just giving back. And we’re helping them to do that through something that’s so easy, right? Just like a gift for a customer after they buy their car. And we’re able to support nonprofits and social enterprises around the world and love that program too, because over 50% of Subaru customers choose a charity instead of a physical gift, and we’re able to help them to do that, which is great. So just empowering them. They used to give gift cards, you know, they just went in the trash and they were gas gift cards. So now we’re doing either gas gift cards or a gift for good, right? Something that’s changed in the world. So, um, yeah, it’s a great example and I’m happy you got to experience it and get a sense of what we’re doing here.

Alison : So can you talk to, could you explain to our listeners that don’t own a Subaru, um, what your business model is and what Gifts for Good is?

Laura: Yeah. Of course. So we are Gifts for Good. I always say that I think our business name says a lot about what we do and think of us just like a marketplace for gifts that give back. Um, and all of our products will come with a little social impact story card. They talk about how they’re changing someone’s life. And best part about them is they’re actually made by a non-profit or a social enterprise. So for example, you get a candle from our site. It might actually be handmade by a woman who’s coming out of homelessness. She’s in a job training program. It’s teaching her how to get off the streets. She’s spending six months learning candle making and, you know, becoming an expert in that. And it is empowering her to get off the streets, learn a wonderful skill and get back into the job marketplace. So it’s so much more than just a candle, right? So every gift kind of has that same sort of story behind it. It might be a candle that’s made by a woman transitioning out of homelessness, or maybe a bag that’s actually made by a woman coming out of human trafficking situations. We’re really trying to empower people, um, out of these, you know, situations that sometimes we find ourselves in, um, and making them have a wonderful, better life just through a purchase of a gift, right? Something so simple. And we do it for both consumers as well as corporate, but we’re really focused on helping the corporate gifting market to get away from that, like cheap junk drawer promotional swag and giving a gift with the purpose and meaning.

Alison : It’s iunbelievably smart.

Jean: Truly and what a meaningful business you’re you’re operating. Uh, Laura, so can you share like what got you inspired/ started right? To, to create this amazing organization?

Laura: Yeah, of course, we’d love to share it. So when I was 18 years old, I joined something called AmeriCorps, which is, uh, I was in something called the National Civilian Community Corps, which is a part of AmeriCorps where you spend a year working with nonprofits around the country. And as an 18 year old, you know, I kind of came from a great town. I was lucky in New York, went to a wonderful school district. And, uh, during my senior year, I went down after Hurricane Katrina and I was just volunteering and in New Orleans. And it was just such an eye opening experience to me. I couldn’t believe that more Americans weren’t talking about what was happening down in New Orleans. So when I went there and I experienced that, I decided to do AmeriCorps as a gap year between high school and college. And I worked with all of these amazing nonprofits who, one thing in 2008, they were really relying on just donations and grants during kind of that economic downturn, but I saw some of them were starting to actually like make their own products to fund their missions. So I was working with nonprofits as an inner city school teacher.

Laura: I was rebuilding homes in New Orleans, and I just saw that they were kind of creating products to help fund their missions. And how could we make that a more sustainable thing for them… And fast forward, you know, five years I worked at Deloitte and I just saw all this like junk drawer promotional swag at one of the big four accounting firms. And I kind of put those two ideas together. Like what, what if we just redirected this corporate gifting budget into funding nonprofits and social enterprises, right? Companies were spending $100 billion a year on corporate gifts. And when I started looking into. Yes. And I’m saying I find that absolutely crazy, right? So they spend over $100 billion a year on corporate gifts, and 50% of them end up in a landfill within two years. So I was like, what if we just take this money that companies are already spending and use it to change people’s lives? So, um, it seems, it seems like such a, you know, simple idea, but it was very new at the time. And, uh, yeah, it’s kind of how we got, we got the idea started.

Alison : So that’s kind of amazing. You’re first of all, your resume, we were looking…it’s like, you know, dedicated her life to this, worked a year there, did like, like, were you raised that way?

Laura: Yeah. I mean, I wouldn’t, I think AmeriCorps was just this turning point for me as a young adult. So, you know, I grew up with a mom who was a nurse. So of course, I always had that in me of just like taking care of other people. And my dad was, you know, a businessman in New York. And I saw him, you know, working extremely hard, those typical New York City long hours, right? And so I think I have kind of both of those people in me as a person, a strong businesswoman, but also someone who’s deeply devoted to helping others. And when I spent a year with AmeriCorps, I think it just showed me like how much need there is in my own backyard. Often people want to even travel abroad right before they just help someone in their own community and teaching in the inner city schools. I was an 18 year old, i’m teaching in the inner city schools. And I realized like, how lucky I was for my public school education. And then I go down to New Orleans and I’m realizing how incredibly lucky am I just to have a roof over my head, right? These people who are impacted by Hurricane Katrina, who had absolutely nothing. So experiencing that when you’re 18 and just like seeing these communities firsthand, I think it just changes you. And it was just such an incredible experience that I now I now tell everybody, like if they have a kid and now me and my husband say the same thing. When our kids are 18, we’re going to make them dedicate a year of their life to service because it can just change you. And it changed my path of my life. I was originally going to go and study engineering, which is hilarious because I can’t even put together kitchen scissors and, and then, you know, I did a gap year.

Alison : That’s right. That’s that’s so that’s amazing.

Jean: I think what you said about, um, you know, having that hands on experience is so important. And I know for myself, you know, there are organizations that I donate to, but the ones that really pull at my heartstrings are the ones where I’ve gone to the field or have really experienced what the finances are helping alleviate or, you know.

Laura: yeah, it’s incredible, right? You see it on the ground and it just changes your perspective and like your life, right? So, um, yeah, I’m going next week actually, to see some of our clean water projects on the ground in Ethiopia. And that’s what it’s all about. Just like connects you back to why you do what you do, right? When you see that kind of work on the ground and it brings you back full circle of how much we can do just through like something simple, like giving a gift, right? Just do it with impact.

Alison : So how do you choose the charities?

Laura: Yeah, it’s a great question. So, um, some of it is really built into the products that we work with, right? So they might be a social enterprise. So we work and look for social enterprises that are having incredible impact, but also can deliver both in like the consumer market and corporate market. So we do things like branding and adding cards, but we’re looking for the most impactful organizations. And I have someone whose entire job is that she was the founding member of Toms Shoes global giving program and like scaled that one for one model around the world. And she’s my co-founder, Jinae’s, and she’s incredible. So she’s just dedicated her life to finding these types of amazing organizations that are the most impactful in the world, and we evaluate them on a lot of different things as a, B core. But we look at both nonprofits as well as social enterprises. And for the nonprofit, part of what we do, which you probably saw when you bought that gift from Subaru, you could choose either a physical gift or a charity to support. We look for a lot of things, but from the consumer side, we want to be able to measure what you’re actually choosing as a gift, which you may have seen as something unique on that platform. So you can actually know, for example, instead of it saying, hey, I’m, uh, I’m donating $50 to water for good. It’ll say, I’m giving a month of clean drinking water to two people or I’m planting 50 trees, uh, in X community, or I’m giving 25 meals to children in need. And one of the things I realized a lot of the times nonprofits don’t do is they don’t do that like measurement of their programs. It makes the consumer kind of connect to what they do. And we do that both for the product as well as the nonprofits that we work with, where we’re measuring the impact of every purchase of a gift or every redemption, as we call it, of a charity.

Alison : So it’s, it feels very personalized.

Laura: Yes.

Alison : Like I felt like, oh, I can relate to that.

Laura: Yeah. And that’s what we want, right?

Alison : Yeah. And I had a hard time choosing. I was thinking, I’m not going to get anything, but then I gave the socks to my kid and they loved it. So, you know, like, um, but I when you find a charity, do you go and meet, like, because I know you did come to Subaru because that’s what my guy told me. Like, do you personally someone from your team go out and meet them?

Laura: So we do have very, uh, personal partnerships with all of our cause partners is what we call them. But for social enterprises and the nonprofits that we work with, we always hear from them. What makes us different is like, we care. Like we’re real partners. They know us. They talk to us. They know a lot about our family. You know, we want to make sure we understand who we’re working with. This isn’t just a transaction. So we do go above and beyond. You know, we try to visit as many of our cause partners as we can around the world in person. We want to see their programs on the ground. We want to verify what they’re doing, and we want to deeply understand it because that’s how we tell the story to the customer, right? We want to we want to see what we’re doing. So I’m thrilled to be going to Ethiopia next week because I actually haven’t seen water for goods work on the ground, but we fund a lot of different clean water projects for them every year, and I’m thrilled. I’m going to be traveling with the CEO next week and actually see in rural Ethiopia, you know, some of the communities that we are funding and the work that we’re doing. And I think that’s how we help connect the consumer back to the work that we’re doing. And, you know, the simple act of just redeeming a gift, but you’re providing, you know, a year of clean drinking water for a girl in a rural village in Ethiopia, right? So it’s, it’s going much beyond the gift. You know?

Jean: It really is. And, and I think, uh, you know, if I would, I don’t, I drive a Hyundai, I think.

Laura: You’ll be driving a Subaru soon,  hahah

Alison : We’re going to convince you.

Jean: And I think, uh, you know, to when you’re given like a, like a gift and you know, the intentionality behind the gift it to me, it levels up the, the gift. And it also, I think more of the company like Subaru. I’m like, look at them be so socially responsible. Look what they’re doing. You know, um, and I love that you’re championing that. And, uh, what I, um, oh, I know Laura, I wanted to say too, that when I looked at your website, the gifts that you offer are, are really elegant and beautiful. They’re not like, uh.

Alison : Um, a pen.

Jean: You know? I mean, you’ve got to like, but they’re, um, they’re really usable. I, I thought to myself, oh, if I received this, I would love this

Laura: Yeah. It’s so, so it’s difficult, right? It’s difficult to find these incredibly beautiful products. But as we source and think about who we partner with and work with, you know, I don’t want people to associate impactful gifts, not with being premium because it’s actually quite the opposite. You know, there’s a lot of premium gifts in the market, right, that might support a nonprofit. But if you go on our site, you’re going to see these are premium gifts. These are beautiful things that people actually want to give, they want to receive. And when I founded the business, that was so important to me because I want to make sure we’re giving beautiful products because one, they don’t end up in a landfill, right? People keep them, they love them and they want to actually use them as a product, which is so important to me. So we always say we’re product first and impact second, but not in a bad way, right? Like, I just want to make sure that when someone gets a gift, they love it and they’re going to keep it. And so being the premium end of social impact gifts is where I usually try to explain who we are. We’re a beautiful marketplace, you know, for gifts that give back, but they are premium. And that’s always been important to our team because it’s the number one thing when we think about the life cycle of a product and making sure it doesn’t end up in a landfill as a B Corp, we need to make sure these are things people are going to keep. So it’s important to us as a B Corp to really be looking at that as we evaluate who we work with.

Alison : You know, we’re living in a time that you know is challenging right now, I would say. Do you feel, i mean, I’m trying to be, you know, because we have to live through it. Do you see, now you’ve been doing this a while, do you see that we’re moving more towards compassion or away from compassion, like… Do you see a shift in sort of the psyche of our nation or the world?

Laura: Yeah. You know, the most incredible gift of being able to run this business is that I see the best side of humanity. And I feel very lucky for that. Right? Because I think, of course, there’s always negative things in the news and there’s always things going on in the world. But one of the most incredible things is seeing just these acts of giving and these acts of compassion, and that at the end of the day, people are inherently good. And I will tell you that running this business, like most people, want to be a good human being, people want to be able to have an impact in their job. And one of the incredible things about what we do is maybe work in human resources, or you’re an executive assistant, or you’ve been running like a corporate event that you hate for the last 25 years. And now suddenly we’re able to help them give a month of clean drinking water to an entire village. Right? And I think one of the incredible things with this business is that I see that humanity is innately good, and it’s a wonderful thing about it. So as much as that’s on the news, I mean, the decade that I’ve been running this business, I think that we’re moving towards more good. And you see a lot more of that in humanity. And I think people are looking for that in everything. In business especially, I think people want business to be a force for good. So more consumers are stepping up. They’re wanting to see businesses doing good and not just saying that they’re doing good. Actually doing it. Working it into their day to day operations, which is kind of what we help them do, right? Like, how do you just bring something as simple as an event and make it impactful and just help with these, these simple acts of using business as a force for good.

Alison : So it gave me chills because we believe we interview a lot of people and like we people like you, and then people that are making pizzas for their neighbor and someone looking over here doing this with a horse. You know, it just and people I think really are good.

Laura: People are good.

Alison : And kind and want want to be on the side of loving each other.

Laura: 100%. Yeah. And one of the amazing parts about our corporate gifting platform, it’s called Gift Forward. But you know, it’s hard running a business like when I’m in my, in my shoes and just sitting as an entrepreneur, I always get tired, right? Like if you’re working long nights, it’s a lot of work working in these communities and especially doing social impact work, right? It’s, it’s an exhausting field to be in and an exhausting position. But I log in to that system. And one of the great things that I can see is what people write when they redeem their gift on our gifting platform. And there’s thousands of thank you notes, just like rolling in every time someone redeems a gift. And it just gives me this like thrill. Like I just log in and I see, for example, that someone chose six rides to treatment for a cancer patient in lieu of this beautiful leather bag, because they’re going through cancer treatment or their mother’s going through cancer treatment, right? Like you’re connecting them in this beautiful way to something that they experienced in their life. And you get to read how that’s impacted them. Or maybe they’re a former, uh, you know, service member and they’re redeeming this cup that helps veterans and you’re just connecting them back to something bigger. Um, so it’s my favorite part because I think, yes, humanity is good and you just kind of get to read these wonderful notes that people are reading and leaving for us all day long.

Jean: So I do think the feedback that any company gets is fuel for the, the desire to keep moving forward. And I love that people are responding to your company just like Alison was…

Alison : So I was so happy.

Jean: Yeah, yeah.  I read that, and i couldn’t agree more, I read that you’re trying to help other organization realize that giving isn’t just at Christmas or at the holiday season. Right? And, and I always loved this quote. An unexpected gift at an unexpected time is, is really lovely.

Laura: Yeah. 100 percent.

Jean: Yeah. Because it sets it apart from everything coming in during the holiday season.

Laura: Yeah, it’s actually one of the most important things to me when people ask like, what do you want people to know about gift giving? The number one thing I say to people is do it at a time when people aren’t expecting it. Like, how do you give a great gift? Yes, I wanted to give back. Of course I want it to be a gift for good. But one of the wonderful things that you can always think about is how do you surprise and like to light someone. When you’re giving a gift and the holidays, things can get lost in the noise, right? And especially for companies, when they get outside of the holidays, that return on investment is just so much higher because people aren’t expecting it and they’re just like thrilled when they get a gift at their door. And we all know we love getting mail, right? But when you get a gift and it’s July and you haven’t had a gift in six months from anybody, you get this little like thrill and you get a pep back in your step of, oh, who sent me this, right? It’s it’s just exciting and it’s different. Um, and I definitely always recommend that. Right? Think about these times when you can just surprise and delight and, you know, maybe it’s Saint Patrick’s Day, or maybe it’s a summer gift, or maybe it’s Random Acts of Kindness day, right? We can gift in all these different times of the year when people aren’t expecting it, and it goes that much further.

Alison : If you don’t have, can you explain to our listeners, if you don’t have a corporation but want to be involved with Gifts for Good. Is there a way for them to do that?

Laura: Yes, definitely. And I always want to make sure people know we serve consumers and businesses. Um, if you go to Giftsforgood.com you’re going to see we have a marketplace for thousands of products that I’ll give back. And if you want to give a gift to your mom or your sister, it’s just a marketplace. Think of us like Etsy, but for nonprofits and social enterprises. So you can go on there and send a gift to anyone you can shop by cause, and what’s important to you, whether it’s women or children or health. So definitely always think of us. If you’re looking for any gift, whether you know you’re a consumer or a business, we can, we can serve both sides.

Alison : So you don’t have to be a jumbo business, do you? You could you could be a little store. You could, you don’t have to be like Subaru.

Laura: You do not have to be Subaru. And I always want people to know that because sometimes they’ll see that we work with these major companies, right? Like Zoom and Subaru, and they’re like, oh, man, you work only with these big companies, you don’t serve me as a small business. And it’s quite the opposite, because we are so passionate about supporting small businesses and making sure that we can support them through gift giving. So, um, please know that no matter how small your business is, we can help you, we can serve you. And that’s a big part of our mission, right? Making sure more people can gift impactfully. So, um, whoever you are, we can help you.

Alison : So wonderful.

Jean: Yeah. That is so great. Do you, um. Laura, so where do you house all your gifts that, like, how do you get the email that says, okay, I want, uh, three bags with this logo on it or what? So how does that work?

Laura: Yeah, it’s a great question. We have such a unique business model. So, uh, we do a mix of what’s called drop shipping as well as our own fulfillment center. I’m so passionate about educating people about what we do at our own fulfillment center. So our fulfillment center is actually here in LA. So I think you guys are local. If you ever want to do a little visit, let me know. People love joining us in person because it’s at Goodwill of Southern California, and we actually employ people with barriers to work who ship out all of our products, and we run our fulfillment center out of there. So if you order a custom gift set, we actually do it through Goodwill of Southern California. So people think of goodwill and they’re like, oh, it’s just a place where I donate clothes. No, it’s actually so much more than that. So they actually do work with a lot of companies. They run their e-commerce operations and fulfillment there. And we’re so lucky to have them as a partner because not only do our products give back, but our operations do as well. So when you buy one of our products, for example, your Subaru branded socks, they ship out actually from goodwill. And probably one of my good friends, Beverly, who works at our fulfillment center, likely ship that product out. And, you know, she’s, she’s on parole right now. She’s learning the skills to get back into the job force.

Laura: And she’s such a hard worker. She packs about 500 Subaru orders a day. And we’re so proud to see that type of impact just at our fulfillment center. And so we ship out a lot of our products from there, especially any branded products as well as custom gift sets for companies like Subaru. And then we also work directly with our nonprofit and social enterprise partners who might ship a gift for us. So for example, maybe you’re ordering one of our nonprofit partners. It’s called Women’s Bean Project. They’re an incredible social enterprise out of Denver. And you might order one of their gift baskets and it might actually come directly from their bakery in Denver, and they might actually package it up, and we’ll ship out a thousand of them for a company there with a branded card. So we do kind of this mix of shipping directly from our social enterprise partners, as well as from our own fulfillment center, depending on the need of the customer and, and also the specific product. So we’re proud of that. And we have global shipping as well. And we help companies when they do international shipping to be able to actually ship within like global regions like Asia, for example. And we will ship from actual social enterprises within that region of the world, which is important for us as a social enterprise.

Alison : Your like incredible to us. Like you really, your whole thing is really walking the walk.

Laura: That’s what we got to do. Right? But that’s, that’s part of what we’re trying to teach businesses is let’s look at everything that we do as a business and how do we make it better, right? Because we just got to always be thinking that way. So, um, my chief impact officer, you know, there’s so many cheaper options for fulfillment centers, for example, but we have to, we have to walk the walk, right? We want to make sure that we’re giving back through everything that we do in our operations. And so for anybody listening, especially if you have a business or you work for a business, right, think about how you can just ingrain giving back into something simple like your shipping operations. You could be working with people, you know, with barriers to work who could ship those products for you. So look at how you can kind of change, change your business and make it better.

Alison : So do you like you just said something to that, like, almost made me cry like that one… Did you say Beverly?

Laura: Yes. Her name is Beverly. Yeah.

Alison : I was going to ask you, do you have do you have any stories or people that have really touched your heart or because it seems like you are really in touch with a lot of people and you know them personally? Mhm.

Laura: Yeah. Of course. And it’s one of the best things about what we do, right? Because this isn’t just a gift, like it’s actually someone’s life, right? And I, I always try to think, sorry, I get teary eyed talking about it because it’s the best part. It’s the best part of what we do. And like these, these people are people, right? And we’re connecting people back to other humans and humanity. And that’s, it’s a gift to be able to do that type of work, you know? I know Beverly personally. I see her every two weeks. I get to hear that. Like she just graduated with her GED last week right at our fulfillment center. And I’m so proud of her. Um, and those stories are the things that kind of keep you going. Um, my chief impact officer actually, probably ten minutes before I came on the podcast, she sent me a link because we’re going to Ethiopia together next week. And she sent me this incredible story of this little girl who’s five years old, five years old, called Cina, and she lives in this rural Ethiopian village. And, you know, she had stomach cramps and stomach pain for weeks. And then Water for Good, our nonprofit partner came in and they built a well, and they started teaching families handwashing and safe storage and sanitation and built a, you know, water well for them. And within three months, this girl, Zina, she has no more stomach pain. She’s like eating well, she’s playing hide and seek again. You know, she’s full of life again. And the kids in her community are back at school. And and when I say like, we provide clean water, that’s what it looks like. It’s a five year old girl who just gets to be a kid again, you know? And so that’s really the story behind the gifts in our marketplace. And I love those stories because it’s the best part about what we do.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean: Wow.

Alison : It almost makes me cry, honestly.

Jean: It’s a win win organization that you’ve created. And your, your, uh, female based. Is that what?

Laura: Yeah. Of course. Yeah. We’re woman owned, so I’m proud of that. And it’s hard, right? I never raised capital and it’s a hard decision coming out of business school. Just do you go after that type of funding when you’re getting business off the ground, but when you’re a socially impactful business that can kind of change the nature and the course of your business overnight. So we’re super proud. We’re bootstrapped, but from day one, like we launched the business and someone luckily landed on our site and said they worked at Red bull. I still remember her. And she said, oh my gosh, I’ve been looking for this for a decade in my job. And like you just opened the website that I’ve been dreaming of. And we were like, oh, I think we, I think we have something here. Like, I think we have something amazing. And she was like, the first order, a corporate order on my store. Um, and that’s, it’s the best part about what we do, right? People!

Jean: So is that is that, um,… I envision you on, is it Shark Tank that you presented your company on?

Alison : Have you done anything like that because you win everything.

Jean: I would think, if I was one of the judges on Shark Tank and you show up, you present this beautiful, uh, you know, your pro forma of your company… I would be like, yes, yes.

Alison : Me too.

Laura: You know, we, we I haven’t been on Shark Tank…i’ve thought about going actually, and I’ve thought a couple times people have invited me to the auditions and we’ve been like, ah, maybe we should do it. You know, what does that look like? But, you know, we’re really lucky when I try to tell people is my goal is to build this evergreen business. I want to show people that business can be a force for good. I don’t need to go after $100 million in venture capital. I know I could get that, but if I want to actually support these social enterprises the way that they need to be supported, we need to kind of, you know, rather than grow like this, we’re growing, we’re growing like this. And like, that’s okay because it’s having a better impact. And the business model is different, right? So I love to teach people about evergreen businesses. I want to create something like a Patagonia, right? That forever will have an impact on the world. So.

Jean: Right.

Alison : Yeah. That’s, you know, you’re kind of a snorer, aren’t you? You kind of , you kind of don’t have any big dreams… You’re, you’re kind of incredible to us really.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison : Because you’re right in it, you know, like you’re really doing it there. I think there are a lot of people that talk about stuff and the fact that you’re actually doing it. And as you’re talking, I’m thinking like, you know, both my kids went through college and we got so much crap from that college…like ya know what I mean?

Laura: Oh my gosh….All of that swag. It’s just crazy how, just wasteful, right? It’s just so wasteful. So what’s incredible is like my idea for Gifts for Good,  it actually started in business school after I worked at Deloitte. I was just like a class project, right? And I’m working on it and I pitch it at the end of my business school where I’m studying social entrepreneurship and at USC Marshall and people were like, oh my gosh, everybody walked up there. Just start saying these stories about how terrible their corporate gifts are and how somebody needs to do something about this market. Oh my gosh, I got this tchotchke here. I got this edible arrangement from someone, right? Like it’s just an industry that needs to be changed. And when, you know, right when I pitched the idea that to business school, I was like, maybe we got something here. And my co-founder looked at me who was in my class with me, and he was like, let’s try this. Let’s see what we can do. And, um, we’re really lucky to still be here almost a decade later. And it’s funny, and I always say to students, right, like, it could just be an idea, but you can actually bring it to life one day. It’s just awesome.

Alison : That’s it.

Jean: Right. Laura, do you, um, not that you have any spare time at all on your hands, but would you consider like going to universities like in freshman and sophomore years of business school and teaching? Maybe not now. Maybe when you’re.

Alison : Older.

Laura: Oh my gosh, I love that you say that.

Jean: But but would you? … Because it’s such a great model to have a template for that other people can, uh, look at?

Laura: Of course.  Um, it’s very funny that you say that. It’s almost like you’re reading my inner soul. Um, I am so passionate about wanting to be potentially a teacher one day and teach the field of social entrepreneurship. So I actually found out last week, which is going to make me cry, that I won like USC Alumni Entrepreneur of the year.

Alison : Wow!

Laura: Where it’s yeah, it was crazy. Snoop Dogg won it in 2024, right? I’m like alongside Snoop Dogg and then here I am. I was like, what do you mean Snoop Dogg won this? Like, you’re gonna nominate little old me. Um, but it’s, it’s incredible to think about how you can teach the next generation, right? About using business as a force for good. And when I got that award, all I could think about because I’ve thought about teaching my whole life. And I think maybe in my, you know, ten years from now, say, I might go back and actually help to teach social entrepreneurship because it’s something I’m so passionate about. And I think especially for the younger generation, we want to teach them how we can keep using business as a force for good. And you see that they’re passionate about it, especially when I go there and I go to USC often, and Berkeley, which is my undergrad, and I’ve talked to a lot of students there, and I, I love being able to show them what you can actually make out of business school. And the business can be something that’s changing people’s lives. So yes, yes, that’s definitely on my radar.

Jean: Very inspiring.

Alison : You are you really are.  Is there something, um, just that like a few words just to people in general about, about kindness or compassion that we could just sort of give them, you know? Yeah.

Laura: Kindness and compassion… I mean, humans are good. Like I just, I truly feel that way. And I think when you think about anything that you do, whether you work, you know, as a job in human resources or HR or events, I always just want to encourage people that you could be an intrepreneur. You don’t need to be an entrepreneur starting your own business. Think about how you can innovate inside of the company that you work in. And so many people are thinking like, I I need to go get this new job. I’m not passionate about it, and I’m not connected to the work that I do in my job that I’ve been working in. I always say to them, like, before you get the next job, what can you pitch within your own company? How can you make something different? Right? Because companies are really open to that. And so many people leave a job before they think about how they can kind of create their dream job or create something new. So I think, you know, that’s something I always want to get across to people is just think about intrepreneurship, think about where you are and what you do, and what good can you bring to the world in your position? It doesn’t necessarily mean that you need to go quite job at a big company and work for a nonprofit, you can be doing something amazing with your big job. So, uh.

Alison : In your neighborhood, in your community.

Laura: yes, in your neighborhood, in your community. And yeah, you don’t need to, you know, go abroad to help change people’s lives. Like everybody doesn’t realize, for example, that one of the hungriest communities in America’s Orange County, right? Like you just think these are wealthy kids. And, and it’s one of the most impactful things that we get to do. You know, that’s a local community to us here in LA. And we provided over a quarter million meals for kids who are hungry in Orange County last year. Right? Like, do you you don’t even think about that being an option, right? Because you just think their kids in Orange County, right? And anybody in America will think they’re fine. But there’s so much we can do in our own community, in our own backyard to help. So.

Alison : Oh, you’re just I can’t believe that from that one little choosing of a sock, we get to meet such a wonderful person.

Jean: Yeah.

Laura: I’m glad you got your socks. And they had cute little Subarus on them, too, right?

Alison : You know, um, my kid’s non-binary, and so it was perfect to and they were like, mom, you’re so sweet that you like, you know, it was just, you know, I just, it just was a perfect mix. And, and I’m very enthusiastic. And, um, we just have two quick questions as we sum up.

Laura: Of course.

Alison : I think inside wink means.

Laura: Oh man, what is inside wink mean? Uh, I would say it’s kind of that quiet moment of connection when you just realize your actions have a ripple and someone else’s life. And I think in, in my work, it’s really knowing just that feeling when a gift isn’t just an object, like it’s a shared support between the gift giver or the artisan or the social enterprise who made it. And I think it’s just saying like, I see you, I value you. We’re in this together. So I think when you know, you meet a founder or a partner and we get to have every purchase have a purpose, there’s this kind of unspoken recognition of like, yeah, we’re in this together, right? And I think that’s just the being human. We’re all in this together and we’re here to make people’s lives a little bit better.

Alison : That’s perfect.

Jean: So true .. Okay. And then a real tough question. Do you prefer cake, pie or ice cream?

Laura: Oh, man, that is a tough question. Um, i do love sweets, but I would say definitely ice cream. My mom’s been obsessed with ice cream since I was born. Um, nothing brings more joy to my mother’s face than ice cream. So we’re always on the hunt for the best one. And I think since I was a toddler, that’s just been like my, my hunt. So I mean, adulthood, now I’m a big baker and I love to cook from scratch. And literally nothing is better than homemade ice cream. I make it home. My husband will tell you that. So I think ice cream is just like versatile. It brings people together. And if it’s from a social enterprise, even better.

Alison : So exactly it.  You know, if we could ever help in any way or just just keep in touch with us if you know, because you’re just exploding my heart. So thank you so much.

Laura: Thank you guys so much for having me. It’s been a joy. And thank you for what you do to spread some good in the world, because we all know we need a little more of it…So thank you.

Jean:  thank you so much, Laura. All the best to you.

Laura: Thank you. You too.

Alison : Bye.

Alison : She got me going, Jean. She got me going.

Jean: You know  her business model is is fantastic. And talk about transparency or not… So yes, transparency, but also, um being a win win for both consumer and the

Alison : the causes..

Jean: The causes. Right.

Alison : And um, her passion is just an unbelievable to me. I just love I her energy and, and then that, that brings my faith in people back, you know?

Jean: Sure. And I, and I think what she said on the interview that she does, she feels that there is more good in the world, and I. And I believe that too. And it is companies like hers that there is so much hope for our future. And our future will be beautiful if it’s dominated by companies like that.

Alison : And, you know, you, you see, um, I don’t want to necessarily say young people, but energized, passionate people about, about doing good things. And their focus is that, and it, it, it almost makes me cry because I feel like sometimes we are inundated with seeing other images and just talking to her made me feel like I want to go see what they do. The factory, I want to go volunteer more, you know, like…

Jean: And it makes me makes me want to support her company.

Alison : Right. So if you have any gifts coming up, I, you know, Arbor Day, 4th of July, anything.

Jean: Groundhog’s day

Alison :  exactly. Give it a look –  Giftsforgood.com. It’s a really smart idea. And you are going to be sending a gift to someone, which is always lovely. You’re going to be helping a cause. Helping the people that are even packaging it to send it to, to the, to your friend. It’s really just a wonderful model.

Jean: It is.

Alison : Made me happy.

Jean: The rippling effect is gorgeous. So thank you Laura, and your team, I know you, you mentioned your team  and it always it always takes a team.

Alison : So yeah. Thank you.

Jean: Thank you Laura.

Alison : Have a great day everybody.

Jean : Hi there.

Alison : How are you doing?

Jean : I am really good. I am very excited about this lady that we’re interviewing today.

Alison : Me too. Because, um, we read her book and, uh, it is called, Create Your Own Table.

Jean : Right.

Alison : And it’s a guide to discovering your purpose, which is just… Who doesn’t need that?

Jean : You know what, i think our purpose changes a lot throughout throughout our lives. And, um, and I, I really found her book to be very, um, self-affirming in that just, we’re not supposed to be like everyone else and, you know, trust what makes our uniqueness sing and, and follow that..

Alison : And that, that there are these things that society’s like, hey, okay, you did A, B, now C is supposed to happen, then D, then E. And sometimes it just doesn’t work that way.

Jean : No. And I, I think more than not all those constructs and belief structures are really melting away.

Alison : I agree.

Jean : And just liberating people to just be creative and authentic. And, uh, so she’s, she’s really ahead of her game and she has been.

Alison : Her name is Heather Dolland Tammam.

Jean : Very nice. It’s not easy to pronounce.

Alison : Tammam is an interesting pronunciation. It’s t a m a m and just a beautiful person and I cannot wait to. And that’s just what I got from the book. I cannot wait to talk to her.

Jean : It’s going to be great.  I know it.

Alison : Okay – Here we go.

Heather: Nice to see you. Nice to see you both. Also, how are you guys doing today?

Alison : We’re good. How are you doing? We were looking at your cards where it says like there was no such thing as failure. So now I don’t feel so bad.

Heather: I agree, everything is a stepping stone. It all is. We’re learning. I was actually looking at the cards also. I was just there. They’re always fun and I feel like it’s always like a little surprise, like, oh, what’s what am I going to pull out today? But anyway, so happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

Alison : We are so happy to meet you because I, you know, we loved your book. I have all these notes and dog eared pages and things to remember. Um, and you, it’s very exciting because it’s sort of a cross in my mind of, um, a book about jobs and achieving a place in, in a workforce that feels you’re passionate about and also spirituality.

Heather: 100%.

Alison : And you’ve intersected these two so beautifully, in my mind. I’m, I’m not looking right now for a job. But I have to tell you, there’s so much stuff in here that I can live by. How did you even come up with this idea to do this, this way?

Heather: So just pure confusion, honestly. Um, that was it. I i always felt that I thought differently, I saw things differently. I had a different perspective and I never accepted the answer. If you ask a question, well, that’s just how it is. Why does it have to be like that? And I was always driven by happiness. That was the guiding force from the very, very beginning. From the time I was a very little girl and I, I knew that… So growing up, I’m originally from Grenada. When you’re in a such a small place, it’s it’s somewhat of a conformist society. And if you don’t fall completely in alignment, it could become very challenging. Then like you’re like the problem child, right? I really wasn’t so bad, but it’s like it was always, gosh, like, you’re so stubborn and you have to have your own way. But I’m like, but no, but you’re teaching me to do all these things and to think.

Alison : Right.

Heather: When I’m thinking, I’m not seeing this in the way that you’re seeing it and there’s a different way. And what if we did this and what if we did that? But it was getting to this particular space. I had written my third book, which is called pivot, because life doesn’t always go as planned. And only in reading the feedback that I got from that book did I realize how many people stayed stuck. And it never occurred to me that this thing that I did, I just assumed that everybody else did it. It never occurred to me that people would just stay stuck. They would be struggling. They wouldn’t know what to do, and they would just suffer in that silence because that’s just how it is. And I’m like, but no, it doesn’t have to be that way. And so it was realizing that I had the tools, but really it was sitting and I remember this like it was yesterday, although it was just last year. So not that long ago, right? Like I’m living in dog years. I, I have my dog here with me. She’s like my little right hand. Every time I say that, it’s like, what are you going to live forever? So we’ll be all right.

Alison : Okay. Yeah.

Heather: But, um. Right. We just have to get that out there. Um, but as I’m looking at the news and I’m seeing 10,000 people being laid off, 20,000, 30,000, and I’m like, I understand what these guys are feeling because just a few months before in that October, I had had a friend who had gone through a layoff after 33 odd years. And how do you even reconsider life when that is your entire identity? And I knew I knew what to do. And so that was the impetus for me being like, you know what? No, I’m going to address this right now and this book needs to just get out right now. And so that was it. Then I started, I sat in the corner of my living room and I’m like, all right, I’m going to get everything that I have known, all of the knowledge that I’ve taken for granted. And I’m going to get this on paper so you could get out and serve. And so yes, that is that is how I got here in all of the confusion and this and the that. Yes, here we are.

Alison : I love that.

Jean : And, and so Heather, what your, the title of your book is really interesting. Can you talk about that and what it means for, for our listeners.

Heather: 100%, because you’re taught from the very beginning. So there’s a trajectory that we go on. You go to school, you get the degrees, you get the job. But what happens when you’re at that job for forever and you’re doing the thing you’re getting? But that raise isn’t coming. The promotion isn’t coming. All of those things, those milestones, the definitions of success isn’t arriving because you’re not being invited to the proverbial table. And so I’m like, instead of being upset and agitated and annoyed that you’re not being invited to somebody else’s table, go ahead and just create your own- period. It’s like we don’t have to keep struggling because at some point, and you start to realize that, especially when the years ahead are shorter than the years that are behind. When are you going to take control? And there are a lot of people that don’t. And so I am hoping that they can use the tools that I share to be able to do that because unfortunately, so many of us have so much knowledge. The problem is that we don’t value it. And more than that, you don’t see how that knowledge and that experience that you have is actually transferable. And so you’re thinking, because I did this thing, well, I can’t do that because I don’t have a degree and I don’t have a this and but you have the experience. And what happens when all of us, you come out of college and you’re trying to get the job and you don’t get the job. And what is the number one reason that you would not get… So you come fresh out of college and you’re trying to get the job and they’re like, no, we’re looking for somebody with more

Alison : Experience.

Heather: And the people with the experience

Alison : Exactly what you need more experience.

Heather: You can’t get the job because you don’t have the experience. And then you have all these people with so much knowledge and so much experience, and they’re just packing it up on the shelf. And I’m like, but why? Because you begin to take for granted the knowledge that you have and you can’t. You don’t see how, well, no, everybody must know that? I’m like, but no, they don’t, and you can serve and you can create your own table with what it is that you have. And so yeah, it’s that it’s, and I, and I, you know, the older you are, the more you genuinely have to give. Except unfortunately, you’re taught the opposite, right? It’s time to retire. It’s time to it’s like, well, what does retirement look like to you? Because I have a whole other plan.

Alison : Right.

Heather: Right.

Alison : Yeah, yeah. And I love the way you almost make failure seem like an asset.

Heather: If it wasn’t for my failure, I’d have no nothing. Nothing. No business, no books. Useless. Useless. Useless. Useless. Absolutely. I just had a meeting with someone this morning and I was telling them the same thing. I was like, you realize that I package all of my problems and I put them in a program, right? And then I wrote a book and I did…if I didn’t have these issues, I would be useless. She was like, why would you be coming to me? I can’t help you. My life is perfect. So sorry.

Heather: You’re on your own. My life. I have no idea what you’re leading to, but thank God, because it’s like if it wasn’t. And that’s one of the things that I shared just a couple hours ago. I’m like, they’re not your failures. It’s the redirection. It’s you, you know, okay, this is this thing is not going to work, but it’s getting you closer to the thing, whatever the thing is. And so, you know, what is it not not beta testing the least viable option, like in tech in particular, where they’re like, we’re going to put out this thing and if it’s not perfect, then you tweak it along the way, but you’re not not going to do it because it’s not perfect. And so all of those mess ups and all of the failures and all of the challenges, it’s the failure is the education you get with all the student loans at the end.

Alison : Yeah.

Alison : That’s right.

Jean : So true

Heather:  oh, because I’ll tell you, nothing has served me the way that my failures have. Period. Wow. It’s like when things are going great, like you’re not needing to expand, you’re not needing to grow. You’re not needing because it’s fantastic. So you could just keep coasting along. You there’s no need to challenge because it’s great. And then all…. But as soon as you fall on your face, the the cool thing about that is that, as I say, you know, if you see where you’re falling, you’re not going to make that mistake and fall there again.

Alison : Right.

Heather: Right? And if you fall on your back, you know, if you could look up, you could get up. Yeah. And so you could just get back up. So it’s not even about the failure. Like you’re focusing on your being able to get back up. So the, the failure just becomes the incident. It’s just a fall. I just felt, but you know what? It’s not even what the falling that you’re trusting in the getting back up. So It’s just part of the course, part of the journey. It’s not a big deal. And so like, if people could just embrace that, it’s like, suppose I fail I said, but you would have learned so much in that though there’s nothing wrong with it. But yeah, I thank you for pointing that out because I’m, I was preaching that literally for about four hours today.

Alison : I love, I love that because I think so many times we’re living in a world where society tells us how to dress, how to think, this is good, this is bad. And my, my child came out as non-binary and it challenged a lot of concepts for me about, you know, what is what are so many things. And I realized I don’t, I haven’t even thought about a lot of the stuff. I just was just stuck in there. And that’s why I think that that your book really has made me begin to challenge a lot of like, what society says it’s supposed to look like because your career didn’t look like what it’s supposed to look like.

Heather: I mean, talk about failure.  it’s shocking how I got here and even just how our identities, they’re wrapped up in our titles. Right, right, right. When I when I left Grenada to come to New York to study architecture. So figure I go through five years, I have this massive failure and I have it while having a thesis professor that is guiding me through this entire process. So this is not just my failure, this is hers also. On top of that, how am I going to tell my parents who have just paid for my education. Figure one easy dollar. So Eastern Caribbean dollar is like 3 USD, right? So it’s a three. How am I telling them that? And how does that even happen when you’ve done every single thing you told to do,  and I think that’s the other thing that a lot of us aren’t prepared for in life. I did what I was supposed to do. I did this thing and I did that thing. And then somehow the ending just the outcome was not what you thought it was going to be. But I remember going home to two things, and I don’t even recall if I wrote it in the book at this point. My parents house,so there’s, there’s a beach and then you could see the carnage where that fort is that I, that was the subject of my thesis, my epic failure. I couldn’t sit on that patio for like two years.

Heather: Like I just couldn’t bear the sight of it. I’m like, I cannot sit out there. I don’t want to see it. I want nothing to do with it. The whole thing. Right. And then I ended up becoming an environmental consultant, but it wasn’t again until pivot came out, and my father sent me the newspaper article showing me that every single thing that they failed me for, how dare I, you know, touch such a historic site. And I want you to add the restaurant and the museum and all of those things. And literally today, as we speak at this very moment, all of those things that I dreamt of…. So I was 20, that happened in 2000, and that book came out in 2023, and I was 23 years old at the time. so I waited 23 years later as he said that that message to me. And he’s like, Heather, you were just ahead of your time. And I saw that. And I never realized, honestly, the shame that I was carrying all those years, even though I had all these amazing career shifts and I was doing all these things in the in the recesses of my mind, there was that thought of, you’re doing all these things because you never did what you were called to do because you failed. I may not have said it, but I started to realize it after because it almost it helped me to step into me.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : Once that veil got lifted, I was like, there’s nothing wrong with me. I can trust what I’m thinking. I can trust what I feel. I can trust my judgment, whether or not I’m ahead of the room or ahead of the time. Well, I guess that’s somebody else’s challenge, but I can trust that the guidance that I’m given is correct, which is back to the spirituality part of it, because I do pray a lot and I do go to church every Sunday with my dog, and I do do all of these things. And I do believe in guidance. And so yes, when it doesn’t go the way that you begin to like, oh, gosh, like I’m not so sure, like, was this really okay? Was this, you know, all of those things. But I think once he told me that I was able to exhale and I was just like, no, chick, you’re all right. You’re good. And, and every and you can trust and just move on. And at that point, I, I understood everything with complete clarity. I’m like, all right, this is, this is just my journey so I can help somebody else along this. Because as, as I also shared, you know, the biggest sadness, weight, travesty, all of the above was that all I want to do was call my my thesis professor Michelle and share with her that it wasn’t us. We were just ahead of the room and unfortunately, she already passed away. And so how many people pass with that thing in them? Because the people, person, family, you name it told them – That doesn’t make sense. This is crazy. It’s not smart. Why do you want to do that? And so you fit your life in so that you’re not offending. You make yourself small so that you’re comfortable. The other person is comfortable, and then before you know it, it’s like you’re bitter and resentful and angry and mad and you don’t know what happened. Yeah.

Alison : I think, I think she knows.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : I think she knows.

Heather: I think so too.

Alison : Really? Honestly.

Jean : And, and there’s a you know, a saying that says don’t die with your music in you. Right.. You know, and, yeah, truly, Heather, I think your book for me really was more of a spiritual book. It just really about believing in yourself and trusting yourself. And, and we’re not meant to be cookie cutters.

Heather: Correct.

Jean : We’re, but, you know, it’s unraveling that guilt and that and the fear, you know, of, of what other people are going to think, you know, and survival, it’s, it’s such a, um, compacted, layered conditioning that we, we go through and, uh, so your book is really liberating. And so let me ask you, what was it like growing up? What were your parents? Were they because you mentioned at the beginning you were very happy. And I think a lot of Caribbean people from the islands..I  have a very dear friend from Belize… They have this joie de vie, you know, very happy. So what was it like for you, your childhood?

Heather: So I think this is the most hilarious part of this. So I was an only child for five years. And then my two brothers came along, um, then two years apart as the only child for such a long period. Technically, there was nothing that my father didn’t show me how to do. I was doing all the things. He was a business person. I went to work. I feel like I have to also bring my great aunt into this, because she’s a very significant part of who I evolved into. But I remember even so, like dad would, I would go to work with him when school was on vacation, doing whatever job I could do. At the time, he owned a clothing boutique and an electronics store, so doing whatever was appropriate. Um, but my great aunt is who I feel called to speak about the most, because I didn’t understand when I saw these children with trays of, uh, fruit or vegetables that they had a hard life and this is what they sold was really important in order for them to be able to live. I just thought they were doing it for sport. And so I would say to my aunt, because she had a ton of fruit trees, can I have like my own little fruit stand? So I remember this like it was yesterday. Like she would sit on the veranda reading her mills and boons and Harlequin romance novels with her, with her spectacles, like on the bridge. So she’s eye on me, you know, half on me, half on on her thing. And I am selling my wares. And she was just taught me to make change. This is how you do it. You know, create a package or this or that.

Heather: Make sure. And so that was something that was instilled in me from the time I was a very, very, very little girl, how to think about things. She, she helped me to create my signature, you know, and she goes, and when you go to the bank and you’re signing cheques and these are the things that you do and just having that sense of self and that’s, you know, that there’s nothing that I could that I couldn’t do. And I remembered as I started to get older and I would want to do this, and I wanted to do that, and my father would be like, why are you so independent? And I’m like, you made me like that. Like, what do you mean why? Like, you did it like, hello, it’s all you, right? And like the whole thing and you can’t just do whatever. And I was like, no, dad. Like I kind of learn from you and you taught me very well. So kudos to you for that. But it was it, you know, growing up, it was, it became like a little bit of a double edged sword because I began to see really quickly as I was evolving, I’m like, wow, I’m not really. I need to do something else. I’m not really fitting here right now. Like there’s so many other things. And a friend of mine, he had said to me, you know, when we met in college, he’s like, you know, I felt like you weren’t you didn’t think that you could fail. And I don’t know that it was a fear of failure more than it was driven by a desire to live.

Alison : Mhm.

Heather: And so my great aunt also had a saying where ignorance is bliss, knowledge is folly.

Alison : Huh.

Heather: And so I felt like I was just like, I’m just going to do these things.And you know, when you don’t even like with with writing my books, I remember when I wrote my first book I had, that was the only book I had a traditional publisher for, and I started writing in October, and she knew that this book was going to be debuting at Bookexpo America when that existed in May. I had no idea that books are supposed to take years. I had no idea. Nobody told me. And so I am like… So this was it was discovering the new craft spirits boom. So I, I interview 30 distillers from Brooklyn to the Finger Lakes. And my logic when I wrote this book is that because I, I, I, I walked away from being an environmental consultant, wanted to start my own business. No idea. Well, no, the business was already started. I had that business for like two, two and a half years at that point, no marketing budget. So I’m like, I’m going to write this book about all of these people. And since I covered the 30 distillers, well, they would then share the stories so they would have an interest in seeing this book succeed. Then I added the liquor stores and the bars and restaurants in there as well. So I was very methodical in my thinking, but I had no idea that this was mad. There was nobody around me to tell me. Heather, that is an insane project because if you do the math, I was also going to like three distilleries a day.

Alison : Yeah.

Heather: Drinking gin before 9 a.m.. Not advisable. Not advisable. But I did what I had to do to get it done. And I got it done right. Because I was not encumbered by it’s supposed to take all this time like I didn’t know. So I just did it. And I think there’s so many things where we trip ourselves up and you so get in your head because that’s not how it’s done.

Alison : Right.

Heather: We can make that narrative into what we want it to be. And I’m so about controlling the narrative.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : Mhm.

Alison : And so, yeah. When you talk about contributing factors and determining factors. That was really interesting because I realized, oh, there’s some stuff that I really have no control over, but there is stuff I do. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Heather: absolutely. So it’s like the things that contribute to our existence, the things that we have absolutely know that I was born a woman that I was supposed to be on my… That was another thing…. I had no idea when I came here what a minority even was, or that this was supposed to be a challenge. And I’m like, where is the problem exactly? I am not 100% sure, but I guess it’s sound so silly to say, but it is 100% the truth. And it’s like, all right, these are the these are the things that would may contribute to whatever. But what actually happens is my reception of it. How am I going to deal with that hand? That I’ve been dealt. If I see it as an issue or not. And so I gosh, oh, my college years were very challenging from that standpoint. 100%. Because it was just like, I mean, I hate to, to bring race into it, but it always felt that way. It’s like, well, you speak this when you do things like, well, you’re not really like black enough. What the heck does that even mean? Yeah. What does that like what? And it’s like all of a sudden there are these parameters, right? That you’re told that you need to fit into them.

Heather: The challenge is for those who don’t believe that this is something that I actually have to abide by, and you see something that’s different. And because at this point I model my books, I remembered and I don’t know if you guys recall who Bea Smith was. So she had this amazingly beautiful, and if you’ve spent any time in Long Island in the Hamptons. So when I first, um, when I first moved to New York, so that was 95. So I would say late 90s, early 2000, I started heading out east to SAG Harbor and I met Bea Smith and I was just like, what an elegant, beautiful human being. It was the first time I remembered going to the restroom and seeing she had this wall of magazine covers, and she was on the cover of every single one. And it was the first time I saw, which is significant a dark skinned black woman on the front of a magazine that owned a restaurant that was doing all of these beautiful things, all of these amazing. It had… that was it. And I was just like,  it never occurred to me that this was something that was available to me.  And I think for many of us, we can’t be what we can’t see.

Alison : Yes.

Heather: And if we could create that example of excellence of that thing, because you don’t have to be in that situation, you can choose, then it makes all the difference in the world. I remember growing up when I would look at all of our literature books. They were all written by either Jamaican or Trinidadian men who were no longer with us. Every single one. And I was like, where are the women? I know we’re doing a lot. And so I wanted to then be that example as I’m stepping into this space, to be that author, to do all these different things and take on the titles that, frankly, I ran from the years.

Alison : Mm.

Heather: Don’t call me a coach. I’m not this. I’m not an author. I’m not a writer. Meanwhile, I’m doing all the things right. I’m doing all the things because I, I realize also like we go through stages in life. And so you just it’s that readiness also as you evolve on your journey. And so I’m like, what does that mean? And you’re thinking of the person that you might know that you might be, you know, that you might not be the most fond of that has this particular I don’t want to be like that person. But then you realize, no, we have the ability to make any of this what it is that we want, what we want it to be. And so it’s like, all right, how can we now just show up as our most authentic self?

Alison : Mhm.

Heather: And so yes.

Jean : It’s so true. And I do think that’s what we’re all really being called to show up more authentic. Little by little, take off those, the protection and and all the identities that we felt we needed to be, uh, for whatever reason, and be truly, uh, authentic in our, in our own being.

Jean : Uh, okay. So I have a question.

Heather: Ask me the question.

Jean : Um, when I’m, I’ve been in enough classes, spiritual classes and everything and I’ve heard so many times the question, i don’t know what my purpose is? Can you if someone is listening and they don’t know what their purpose is, whether they’re a young person or maybe they’re now an empty nester and a woman in her middle age, How can someone tap into what their purpose is?

Heather: So I was asked this question just this morning. Um, as someone was doing an interview with me and she said, you know, what advice would you give a young person who wants to follow in my path? And I said, the first thing is that that I would not suggest that they follow in my path.

Heather: The first thing is being finding who you are genuinely and authentically and understanding what that call is on your soul. Because for everyone, that’s different. But more than that, if as you are on that journey, you’re realizing because you don’t, you would never see until you do, until you start to step in that direction. So my first bit of advice is it’s not about I’m going to back up a little bit, also– when we think about stepping into purpose, it’s also connected with a job, future, career, something that I’m going to do. And then there’s a monetary aspect of it. And then people begin to panic because you’re like, oh my goodness, I don’t know if this is going to make enough money. This is what I want to do, but I don’t know. And so my first bit of advice is instead of focusing on your financial goal, understand what your sole goal is. If you could understand what that goal is on your soul, then everything else will begin to take care of itself. I genuinely believe that. But give yourself grace to shift, because a lot of the times we start doing something the way that we thought it was is going to happen in our head. It’s not always the way that it happens in reality, and you need to shift. You need to and just give yourself grace.

Heather: With that, you get to choose again. But the question of purpose, I could not– if even, two years ago you asked me….. So Pivot was in 23, I think I was closer to that, but because I realized I had a skill set that I could help. But the question of purpose, it took me a long time even to be sure if I wanted to name the book about discovering your purpose, because I think when people hear that word, it becomes very heavy, very heavy. They’re feeling like they’re about to be the next Mahatma. And I’m like, no, it doesn’t. It doesn’t need to be that. It’s just that what is that thing that you’re called for? But then I realized that instead of purpose, it’s, it’s all of the talents. It’s every single thing that I’ve been able to do, all the things that I enjoy doing, all the things I do naturally, it doesn’t feel like work. It doesn’t feel like a chore and I am able to now bring that into your life. So to me, that is what that purpose is. So it’s not necessarily… It’s a different thing for everyone else, but the journey to it,  it’s genuinely something that you you feel and it doesn’t feel tiresome. I think that’s probably the first thing. It’s not a…. When I, I had five calls today.

Alison : Wow.

Heather: And I could keep going. None of this feels like arduous or task or anything because it’s what I naturally love to do. I love to connect. I love to create meaningful change. And if I see that you’re struggling, I’ll be the first person there to help and guide. And so it just became, how am I now able to take this into something that is a business? But everybody, it doesn’t have to be that. And I think that’s probably another thing. With regard to creating, you know, determining your purpose. For some people, it may need to be a business, for others, it may just need to feed their soul. And that’s enough.

Jean : Mhm.

Heather: And you could do that job if you’re feeling like that thing would not be able to take care of you monetarily and just do that other thing on the side. And there’s nothing wrong with that either.

Alison : Right, right.

Heather: I always, you know, one, one of the calls I had today, I was like, my dear, you need to get yourself a job, do that other thing, but you need to get that job because you don’t want to get, you cannot create if you feel financially strangled and in a chokehold. But you would begin to love that job even though you think right now it really sucks because it’s allowing you to be able to step into that thing that you want to do. So it doesn’t take away from it. And I think sometimes we think that, that to do that thing, that is my purpose, it must pay all the bills and do— it doesn’t have to. It’s okay if it doesn’t, as long as your soul’s happy and it’ll work out and it’ll figure itself out. But just don’t don’t create that pressure where it’s like one or the other. And I think that’s the other thing that prevent a lot of people from stepping into that thing because it creates this hard line. And if they can’t pay all the bills, well, it can’t buy buy me a cup of coffee either. And so…

Alison : Right.

Jean : Yeah. And you and you give some beautiful, uh, questions.

Alison : That workbook. The workbook.

Heather: Yeah.

Jean : You know, what would you do if you know you couldn’t fail or you had…., you know, so I thought your questions were, were beautiful.

Alison : Yeah.

Heather: Thank you.

Alison : You know, my son graduated, he, he was stuck in the pandemic, so his whole trajectory changed. You know, he graduated college a few years ago with a with a computer science degree. And years ago, you were like, you’re, you got it. Like what you said, it’s going to look like this. And you know, right now you can’t get a job in that. And it’s been a struggle because I think just what you said, I think people think it must be some huge like like I was thinking my passion…. I just like talking to people. I like, I’m curious about people. I like people, you know, and it can be, I think that simple. You don’t have to have a wall full of magazine covers to feel fulfilled.

Heather: Exactly, exactly. And for the number of times can I say that I got in trouble, because at the end of every report card is Heather talks too much, Heather talks too much. And I remember when I first saw when I started as an environmental consultant and then I transitioned, I went from a scientist into business development. I went back to Grenada and I saw the principal and I said, guess what, Mrs. Webster, remember you like to write. Heather talks too much. I said, they pay me to speak now. So look at that.

Jean : There it is.

Heather: Right? But it’s like again…. But it’s the thing that we do, and I never thought that this was particularly special until I got that feedback. Oh, but I needed help and I needed hear somebody say that because I didn’t hear. And I was like, oh, so we can use those basic, seemingly things that have no value because all we’re doing is again, right, just taking what it is that we do for granted, taking what it is that we love for granted. Who cares? And then you realize you actually saw that make a difference in people’s lives and they care, right? And so, you know, just just moving along, but as you shared what you just shared with your son, you know, I think one, one a lot– one thing that I, I find myself recommending when people do feel like they’re very stuck, like that is taking that knowledge into a place where that skill set is rare, where everybody is not doing that thing that you now do, and it’s just thinking a bit just outside the box.

Alison : That’s interesting.

Heather: Thinking outside the box.

Alison : Yeah.

Heather: You know, in, in that space where you’re not competing with everybody else’s doing because there’s so much interconnection with everything now.

Alison : Yep.

Heather: It’s having that flexibility. I, I genuinely believe is, is what, you know, with AI and technology and everything having that  flexibility, but more so having that humanity is what differentiates us.

Alison : Yeah.

Alison : Very much. Well, humanity is going to be rare.  I wanted to ask you, you know, how some people that seem to have everything. They got it all. They got everything. But but I don’t know that like, like they’re like, sometimes you hear that, but I’m not fulfilled. So why is it that fulfillment and achievement… How can you get them to converge as opposed to diverge?

Heather: Well, I think that comes back to purpose.

Alison : Yeah.

Heather: That 100% comes back to purpose and, and what you’re driven by. But in fairness, look, you know, we all have bills to pay. You need to do what it is that you need to do, which is also why I, I share that if you’re at, if you cannot see right now and it is not it’s not permanent, right. Right now, you may not be able to see that end where any of this could make sense, but it’s taking that step, taking that step. And yes, I think the reason that that fulfillment often doesn’t come because you’re doing what it is that you have to do. But my hope, my dream is that you have enough awareness. Should you have the desire to do something else that’s more fulfilling, to actually take that step and do that? There’s so many people who wouldn’t because again, their identity is wrapped up in it. I remembered even when I was an environmental consultant going into the alcohol business, I said I was an environmental consultant for 15 years. Now I’m when I’m slinging booze, seriously, I didn’t need to go to school for seven years for that. I felt like legitimate shame. I’m like, oh, yeah, I saw alcohol now. And worse than that, worse than that is that I would go back to Grenada, and mind you, I had not done architecture for like, what, 15 odd years, people would still be like, oh, you’re an architect, right? And I’m like, oh my God.

Heather: What do you do now?

Heather: I sell alcohol…. Talk about shame. And but I was, I knew that if I had to spend the next 20 years of my life doing that, and let’s just be clear, i worked with an amazing people and it was an amazing job. It just wasn’t for me, right? It just wasn’t my calling. So it was great. The money was great. All that stuff was great. It just wasn’t for me. The challenge was I didn’t know what that thing was either. And so I stepped into the alcohol space because it did not matter how early I had to get up to go on a construction site or do whatever work that I had to do. I always had the energy to do a tasting, and so I only developed the words for it later on that I like to teach. I didn’t know that back then. All I knew is that when I went to a store, if they took a certain number of bottles of wine, certain bottles of spirits, and I went to do a tasting, I sold out of my inventory- all the time- because I like to teach people about the wine, about the spirits, about the whatever it is, I like to connect with them. And so that was a skill set that I was able and it was just about good work ethic. Honestly, it’s all that it was because when they’re like, well, how do you go from environmental to that to, to, to spirits? Well, it wasn’t about the base thing.

Heather: It was about the me thing. I was bringing the same, the same value system that I had there, i was bringing, I was just moving into something else. Yeah. And then when I became a content creator, it was the same thing. It’s the same work ethic, the same, all of those things. I’m moving it into something else. But I mean, talk about being ashamed. I then –  so  to quell myself of that, I became a certified specialist of spirits. So just like you have a psalm for wine, I have those credentials in the alcohol space. So I was like, well, I am I, what is the truth? And I struggled for ages with that. I get it, I completely get that — but yes, here we are, and I’ve evolved and evolved and, and I genuinely just own where I am right now, where I’m where it allows me to honor all of me, quite literally all of me, because I have all different types of clients. And yes, I may not have lived all of your lives, but I have, I have had enough variety where it’s like, okay, I get what this common denominator might be, I get it and I, and I see you and I understand the struggle, like, okay you know, and there’s like the relatability.

Alison : Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, your book is very vulnerable.

Heather: Thank you.

Alison :  and, you know, we read a lot of books and some people we interview and some people we don’t. And some of the books like…. And, uh, some of the books people almost seem too perfect.

Heather: Sure.

Alison : And, and that’s hard for me to relate to. You know, it’s, it’s challenging because then I feel more like a loser or whatever, you know?

Heather: I get that. Yes.

Alison : So how did, how did you feel about opening up so much in this book? Because your last chapter, I almost started crying at the last thing because you were like, it was real… And I was like, oh, don’t say that. I love you, by the way…. You know, like, oh, I got to give you a hug.

Heather: So, you know, the funny thing is-  I was like, oh my God, the United States versus the Caribbean. She, like your book is so vulnerable. And the West Indian in me was like, you have no shame because that’s what the Caribbean is, but you have no shame. I was like, don’t try and shame me for not having shame. Like, what are you doing? I’m like, I’m being honest. Like, why? But I was like, oh my God, I was so nice. What you just said. Yeah, I know, but the Caribbean version. But can I just because I realized that I just show up best as myself, period. Yeah, I just it wasn’t, I wasn’t it wasn’t even attempting.  i wasn’t even I’m like, I’m just going to tell you the truth because I can’t help you otherwise, period.

Jean : That’s very true. Yeah.

Heather: Right. Period. If you’re not able and realize that I also use my books so that my right fit client recognizes me, the right fit person. So my second book was called – like I had to check, “Before the Glass- Things to consider when entering the boose business”. And I wrote this book because I was so, so, so super angry. A client that I thought was going to be a client or he was supposed to be a client in January, did everything I, everything I told him not to do. And I onboarded new brands in January and we met in October. I’m sitting I and it’s only me and two other salespeople. So we cannot carry that much product. In addition to that, when you’re selling alcohol and you’re doing tastings, there’s a thing called palate fatigue that happens. So if I am going to a liquor store and I want them to take my products after like 3 or 4 products, they stop being able to taste – so it defeats the purpose. I can’t have more than six brands total, total, total in my portfolio. And I end up having to walk away from this guy because if I took him on, he was going to absolutely ruin my reputation. And I write this book because the financial catastrophe that that created for me,  I never got out from under it that year. It was like mistake, mistake after mistake. And I realized how I could use a book to find my right fit client, because the only thing that was worse than no client was having a bad one.

Heather: And so before we sign any contracts, I am going to give this to you. Read it. We’re good, we’re good. Sign the contract. We’re not going to have a wonderful life. It was nice to meet you. And I’m going to move on to the other person. And so, when I wrote, “Create Your Own Table”, I wrote it with that thought process in mind, that I know that I’m here to serve. I’m seeing all these people losing their jobs on all these different things going on. I need them to understand that I can help, but first they need to know who I am. They cannot find that out only after the fact. And that’s how you get bad reviews. And I’m not interested in that. And so and so they’re like, this is a book. If you see it and you’re like, this chick is crazy. All good. But if they’re like, okay, I get what she’s saying, then we’re solid and we can move. So it doesn’t serve me to have any level of pretense because it will come out. It will become very evident. And so I’m like, nah, the only way I could do this is just being my true and authentic self, which apparently as my mother be like, Jesus, Heather, you have no shame. I was like, Ma, don’t judge me, okay? I am just. Yes, I love that. Thank you. My vulnerability. We’ll own that.

Alison : That’s right.

Jean : Very beautiful. That’s right.

Heather: Yes, we own that.

Jean : It helps so many other people. When we share our vulnerability. It really does. It’s such a beautiful gift.

Alison : You know, in our family, we say…. Everybody’s got a bag of rocks to carry… You know. And you know, and some people will help you. Jean helps me, you know, take rocks out of my bag, and I hope I and my husband . But you got a bag of rocks, and everyone’s got it no matter what it looks like.

Heather: 100%. 100%.

Jean : Just don’t hrow them at each other.

Alison : That’s right, that’s right.

Heather: Just yes… Right… Peace.

Alison : You know, we’ve taken up so much time of your day. Um, we we just have.

Heather: I’m having a very good time.

Alison : Are you?

Heather: Please. In case you didn’t realize. Truly.

Alison : I find you so moving.

Jean : Me too… Because I found you first, Heather– and I said to Allison, I bought this lady’s book, i was in the back of a cab in NYC

Heather: That’s how you found, I wondered. I was like, where is the connection? Thank you for sharing that with me. Thank you.

Jean : I was raised on Long Island, Heather. And so I was back in New York visiting my mother and my son and my sister. And so I had a long ride in the cab and your, a book promo… You were there talking about your book, And I thought, she is awesome.

Heather: Yeah.

Jean : And I said to Allison, you know what, I, I would love to, I said, I don’t know if we’re going to get her because her book just came out. She’s probably… But you didn’t do a ton of podcast interviews and everything. So I feel so lucky. Special and lucky to have you here with us this afternoon.

Heather: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for seeing that I, I realized.   So I have picked all of those interviews up. As a matter of fact, I have seven this week, which is like stunning.

Alison : That’s fantastic.

Heather: Yeah, quite. So when I wrote this book very quickly, I realized I needed to create a program to be able to give people who got clarity from the book, the next place to go. The other thing that I realized that I needed to do, if you recall the section on beliefs and the way that I use those overnight meditations to be able to shift, I’m like, I need to create that.

Alison : Yeah.

Heather: And I was invited to do a workshop this summer, 10.5 hours of instruction. And they asked me, they’re like, do you have any meditations? And I’m thinking– this had been from the time I wrote that because, I know I the advice that I gave was kind of like, do it yourself. I’m like, well, wouldn’t it be lovely if I actually did it? So I had been making sure that anyone who got clarity for this had places to go. And that’s why I had not been doing that much. And my head was just down for months, literally until December. I’m like, all right, I’m back now… I can start to get out there and do all these things because I really wanted to make sure that I was serving. I didn’t want anyone to come to me and then feel stuck. And I got all these things and they’re off to the races. Oh my bad. No race. Go home now. Like I’m not going to do that. Especially when you have momentum and that kind of thing. And so I really spent the last – from May through December just creating and I create all my own content, and I do all of these things on my own.

Alison : Where can our…. Because I’ve given away two other copies of your book to my to my sister in law and friends. So where can you find that stuff? Like, like, like, let’s say you want to just get to know more about you… How can someone, how can our listeners find that?

Heather: So my website for sure, which is dalton.com. So I essentially married both of my last names, so it’s D o l t a m.com. And yes, and the books are available quite literally everywhere. I mean, Amazon, Barnes and Noble a whole lot. But yes, all of my programs, everything is available on dalton.com and I have complimentary clarity calls. So if you’re not certain and you want, because again, the goal is to serve, which is why they are complimentary. And depending on what that need is, we would know. And then you could evolve and go into the next step where you would enter into quite literally the create your own table ecosystem where I can, the goal is to meet you wherever you are. You know, I often say in, in. Just like in life, I mean in, in in, in nature, there are seasons in life. And so the intention is to create and curate and really just support you depending on the season that you’re in, in your life.  https://www.doltam.com

Alison : I find you so. Something about you touches my soul and I find you so moving.

Heather: Thank you. Thank you for saying that. And both of you, I genuinely appreciate everything that you’re doing. And I actually really love looking at your reels. I was just like, you’re just fun, wonderful, delightful, and I prepare, I always make sure I prepare and I was just like, you know what? As I was coming in today, I was like, this is going to be fun. I actually am looking forward. I was like, this is going to be fun. So yes, I’m here for it. So thank you for creating this kind of space.

Alison : We have two quick wrap up questions that you know, the first one is what does what do you think or Oh, what does inside wink mean to you?

Heather: To me, that’s intuition. I that is what your guided that thing when you get that insight. It’s like whatever source, whatever you believe in is saying to you, this is that thing that is your intuition. And when you get that inside wink, it’s like, yeah, that’s the way that that’s the direction to me. The inside wink is definitely like that calling that, that grown, that message that you’re getting that is endorsing whatever that thought is action, whatever it is you want to do. To me, that is absolutely it is intuition.

Alison : Perfect.

Jean : Beautiful. And okay, so our last question before we say goodbye is.

Heather: The hardest.

Jean : The hardest truly. Do you prefer cake, pie or ice cream?

Heather: Ah, yeah, yeah.

Heather: And I’m still struggling. I’m still struggling because the reason that it’s not a fair question is because to me, they are dependent on each other.

Jean : Okay. That’s like Allison.

Heather: If you’re going to. Oh, I feel and I was like, I’m going to say cake. I know, I want to say ice cream. I’m going to say cake. I know I.

Alison : That’s what we’re putting on your table.

Heather: We, I know, right? I’m going to put cake then just because you said table I was like, Christ, the ice cream is going to melt. I’m going to stick with the cake. Ah, but mind you, I’m like a pie and ice cream person all day, all night and twice on Sunday. I mean all the time. I love that. I’m like, how can you? So like they just cancel each other out? Cake. It’ll be cake.

Alison : Okay. Cake.

Heather: You forced my hand cake. What’s that?

Jean : Is there a specific cake?

Heather: Oh my gosh.  Like now you asked me… Like really? It took me so long to get to the cake. You know what? Just that very, very plain vanilla. That reminds me of my childhood and this is going to sound extra hilarious. I remembered for my 40th birthday saying to my mom, I ended up being back in Grenada. I’m like, mom, I want the vanilla cake like we used to have as kids with the hard icing on it.

Jean : Yeah.

Heather: The just it was, I think it was just literally water and it wasn’t fondant like nothing that fancy. It was literally just water and icing sugar, right? With some coloring, but it’s like, it, it, I would taste that. And five year old Heather would show up.

Heather: Yes.

Alison : Yeah.

Heather: Right. Yeah. None of the fancy like the pistachio, raspberry and the hummingbird. And no, I think I would just because that it takes me right there and that’s like a wonderful place.

Alison : I love that. Thank you so much. And thank you so much for everything you’re doing.

Heather: Thank you for having me.

Jean : What a generous and beautiful woman. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Heather: And thank you to both of you for all that you do as well. Thank you.

Alison : Stay in touch. Okay.

Heather: I hope to, indeed. Yes.

Alison : I’d love to keep connecting with you.

Heather: I’d appreciate it. Have a wonderful day, too. Thank you for having me. All right. Take care. Bye bye. Bye.

Alison : Well.

Jean : Wow. Did she have so much goodness to say. And what a what a spirit.

Alison : My gosh, she just, like, jumped out of the computer. I felt like I could like –she’s electric to me.

Jean : She is so full of joy. Yeah. And, uh, wisdom.

Alison : And and pure — like pure.

Jean : Yes pure… not lording it over or pontificating. She’s just really wanting to serve.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : Uh, and I read this quote the other day, Allison, it said when you serve from your heart, it transforms others, so it transforms yourself and others. And I thought because we were reading this book and I thought, that is so Heather.

Alison : As opposed to like what, uh, serving from like, oh, I have to do this.

Jean : Right, right, right. A sense of obligation being more of your inspiration.

Alison : Right. And she is just so the book was really interesting and I just liked the stuff she said today that we’re all in our own unique path because sometimes I forget that, like sometimes I fall into that thing of, oh, I should be doing this or I should be doing that, but really, I should just continue to do what I, I find inspiring and that I enjoy.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : You know, I was so taken with her.

Jean : She’s so fun and I’m so glad she said yes to us and and, uh, Yay! So thank you so much, Heather, and I hope you all enjoy this beautiful interview.

Alison : And look up her book, “Create your own table” or even go to her website –  https://www.doltam.com  and it’ll be on our page and in the bio. So really, and she.

Jean : She Offers so many wonderful tips and tools and I know she’s just amazing. I’m so glad, so glad we took this opportunity.

Alison : Me too.. Jean’s the one that found her. Good job Jean. Yeah. Good job. Thanks, everybody. Have a great day!

Jean : Bye.

Alison : Hi, Jean.

Jean : Hi there.

Alison : How are you doing?

Jean : I’m great. How are you doing?

Alison : I’m pretty good. I’m doing very, very well today.

Jean : You seem like you’re doing very unlike those other days where you seem so discombobulated with your whole life and.

Alison : A mess,

Jean : Which is so not true.

Alison : That’s so funny. That’s right. Um, I think I got some good sleep, and, um, I’m looking forward to this interview today. Did you have a favorite stuffed toy?

Jean : So, um, I don’t think I had a favorite stuffed toy. I do remember I loved this beautiful doll that was in  and she was dressed in a wedding dress, and I. And I loved her.

Alison : Oh, wait, was that your doll?

Jean : Yes, I think my parents gave it gave her to me when I was maybe, you know, eight. Really? Yes. And I thought she was just so pretty and I just always loved her. But I didn’t really have a favorite stuffed animal.

Alison : Did you? Did you play with stuffed animals or mainly dolls?

Jean : I think I played mainly with dolls. Yeah. Yeah. How about you?

Alison : I was stuffed animals.

Jean : Okay.

Alison : I was not dolls, I had millions. It feels like millions, there’s probably a hundred stuffed animals. And I had one teddy bear that was with me that my that was, like, from birth. That I still have somewhere in a trunk. And, um, I like I’m an only child. So I played with those animals like they were my friend. There was a company called Stif.

Jean : Oh, sure.

Alison : With the button in the ear.

Jean : They’re still around.

Alison : Yeah. And that those, those were the stuffed animals and they are so meaningful. And I have one little owl still in my house. I’ll show it to you that I like love. And, um, that’s why I was really looking forward to interviewing this man today. Um, I did a movie, Ashes to Film. It was a festival for the people that lost their homes in the Eaton Fire, the in Altadena and the movie that I did with, um, with Max, uh, they showed another movie called the Magic Thread. And the magic thread was about a child who lost, you know, the family lost everything in this house, and she mainly lost her favorite stuffed toy and Budsies, which is a company that will make custom stuffed animals for you. Um, uh, gifted children in the Eaton Fire, and they do it to hospitals and schools, uh, her toy. And so they recreated her toy and Scott was in this movie and he was just in it a little bit. It was mainly the journey of this family. And I thought, I want to know more about that guy. Do you know? Because he just seems so sweet. And so I’m really excited that we’re going to talk to him today.

Jean : Yeah, well, when I looked up the company preparing for this interview, I just thought what a great idea. And I do feel, as I shared with you, that my sister and I used, um, Budsies to create a stuffed animal for my mother, so.

Alison : That’s so sweet.

Jean : Yeah, it’s an emotional companion support that she doesn’t have to clean up after or walk.

Alison : Right- exactly.

Jean : Which is just perfect for my mom.

Alison : I know that’s perfect. And I feel like that so many of us have those sort of touchstones of the past that are so meaningful or just in our imagination. So I’m really… His name is Scott Meyer and the company is Budsies,Sco and so here we go.

Jean : Here we go.

Scott: Hello.

Alison : Hi. Hello.  We’re so happy to see you.

Scott: Oh, it’s great to see you all, too. I hope you’re having a good day.

Alison : Yes. You too. And I’m Alison.

Jean : All right.

Alison : And this is Jean , Scott.

Jean : I’m Jean.

Scott: Hello, Alison and Jean. It’s great to see you guys today.

Alison : And I, uh, I was in the Fshes to, uh, film festival.

Scott: Okay. Amazing.

Alison : And I did, I did a home on the same day that yours was aired. And I, I saw that film called. It’s called a magic Thread, right?

Scott: That’s right.

Alison : And man, I was crying about your thing, you know, and about how you were giving toys to people in the Eaton Fire. So I just thought you’d be a perfect person to talk to for insidewink.

Scott: Oh. Very cool. Well, I was intrigued when you all reached out, and I’m sorry we didn’t get to connect at the film festival. I was there during the screening.

Alison : Were you?  I had to

Scott: Yeah, I should have muscled my way up on stage, but I was like, oh, they made the movie. I’m just. I’m already in it. Nobody needs to hear more from me.

Alison : So my, my, my director was Max, who’s also a kid and

Scott: Oh, yeah.

Alison : Push those kids off, you know?

Scott: Oh, that was you in the same film, the Home. Oh my gosh, it’s all coming together now that that was so fun. Yeah. You did a brilliant job.

Alison : Hollywood in a robe.

Scott: Yeah, I loved it. That’s so great.

Alison : Can you tell because Jean wasn’t there. But can you tell us a little bit about Budsies?

Scott: Sure. So, um, Budsies started gosh, like, oh, 13 years ago. Um, and I, uh, through the universe I came to, to be the head, the head of Budsies about five years ago. Um, so it all started out as, uh, a kid’s drawing. You upload it to our website and we turn it into a totally one of a kind stuffed animal and so we love artwork, creativity. We also do puppets. You can upload a picture of you, and then all your friends and enemies can make you say whatever you want. And.

Jean : Like a voodoo doll.

Scott: Exactly. Well, yeah, we we did that as a joke once, and people took it really seriously. We’re like, no, it’s April Fools voodoo doll, not a real voodoo doll. So we don’t play with voodoo anymore. But, um.

Jean : We’re beyond that.

Scott: Yeah. And then we also, we do bobbleheads and figurines and, uh, blankets and shirts and all kinds of fun stuff. And then we have a, a brand dedicated to pets as well called petsies, which is all about commemorating your pet and a totally one of a kind stuffed animal. And, uh, yeah, so we’ve been doing it for years and, uh, it was a shark tank company. I was not on Shark Tank. I’m a shark, I guess. Uh, and then, um, but a much more informal one. Uh, and then, um, you know, when I and we also do bulk, so we make stuff from 50 units to 50,000 plus for everybody from, uh, you know, small artists collections to, uh, you know, fortune 100. So we kind of done the whole gambit. And then when I first came into Budsies, uh, there was people were like, oh, yeah, somebody sent money in for the Budsies Pals program. And I was like, well, what do you mean we don’t we’re not a non-profit.

Alison : Yeah.

Scott: And, um, people were just so they just loved what Budsies was so much. They just started sending us money and saying, please let a child who couldn’t otherwise do this, like do it. And that kind of came to a head when somebody went to our website, you know, where our Budsies pals’ page and wanted to donate $10,000. And I was like, yeah, but this is, you know, we’re not a non-profit. So we are now. We now have a fund. So we’re we have a non-profit fund and we still get donations and they, they come in, you know, it’s not something we push a lot, but with those funds, uh, we partner up with different non-profits and that’s how we’ve been able to gift Budsies to people… In the case of the Eaton fires, um, you know, we, we saw what was happening. I lived a lot of years in LA. I’m now in Puerto Rico and back and forth and was actually out there during the fires. And we were immediately like, wow, you know, sometimes if you lose everything, what do you do? You know, and yeah, it’s just stuff. But sometimes those things are really access points to memories and to, you know, when I was cleaning out my, my, my parents childhood home was they’re moving out, they’re both good still.

Scott: And, but we were moving out and, um, and, you know, it just felt super lucky to have all these things, but also we’re giving them away. And I was like, you know, maybe a bit of a hoarder, but they were there… Each one is an access point to the past. You know, you pick it up and all of a sudden you have a sense memory of 20, 30 years ago. Yeah. And so I know how that is for kids. And so it was really important to us to try and do something. And, uh, so we, I mean, I think it was, I don’t remember what the final count was, but it was dozens of kids of people that wrote in. And we, with the funds that we had in the fund, were able to give free replacement plushies to them. Um, and we did a few from North Carolina as well. We work a lot with kids in hospitals going through medical journeys. Um, yeah, all kinds of stuff like that.

Alison : I love that I saw a video, I guess someone did a story on you and it was through Zoom and the kids were drawing things. Was it during Covid?

Scott: Maybe. I mean, we did a we did a today show piece. Yeah, that was super fun. Um, yeah, that was maybe 2023, 2022.

Alison : Yeah.

Alison : And then so sweet that these kids were so into it and had these very specific things that they love.

Scott: Oh, yeah.

Alison : You know, I loved that.

Scott: It’s cool.

Jean : Sorry, Scott. It’s such a great idea that you developed it and that you ran with it.

Scott: Yeah.

Jean : Yeah.

Scott: Well, I, I mean, so I didn’t, I didn’t invent the idea, but I am helping to, to grow it. And what’s cool about it is it is a platform for ideas. And so every kid gets to be a creator and see their idea come to life, which for me as a kid, I mean, even now, it’s a super powerful thing. And we would go, I’d walk through our fulfillment warehouse and just pick up all the different ones and look up the stories of them. And every single one is unique. Like imagine going to a Bizarro toys R us or, you know, like toy store from another universe where they never make two of the same thing. And that’s.

Alison : Love that.

Scott: So that’s where we are. Like, there’s no shelf that has 50 of, you know, Princess whoever ..it’s instead it’s 50 different princesses, you know.

Alison : Right.

Jean : But what’s a really unusual stuffed animal that you’ve seen? Like, wow, okay, that’s anything that really sticks out in your mind.

Scott: Oh my gosh, so many. Um, we get all kinds of monsters and fun stuff. I know we did a ferret in a wheelchair. Um, we, we’ve done, um, you know, there, I mean, I have some behind me. This is like, uh.

Alison : You have a screen of, like, plants. Oh. They’re good.

Scott: Oh, yeah. It’s fake. Yeah. I don’t like to show off my stuffed animal collection to the public.

Alison : We love it. That is so.

Scott: Yeah, that’s one of our. This is Fred.

Jean : Oh my gosh. But yeah, to your point, when the child receives, then the physical, tangible stuffed animal that they drawn on a piece of paper that what a great feeling you’re, you’re initiating and cultivating in that child.

Scott: Yea.. Let me say it is it is really cool to see. So if you, I don’t know if you saw the today show thing. Um, it’s so heartening to be there with everybody, like with the kids, like experiencing it, the different at the different stages. And you know, we’ve had teachers that are that are doing this too. And that’s one of our teachers we work with. Miss Shannon has done this a bunch and has been super awesome and and was on Good Morning America. Um, for bringing these to kids. And so that’s something now that we’re, we’re, we’ve just kind of reworked part of our process specific to classrooms and teachers where they can upload everything all at once. Um, because we got this feedback from, you know, different teachers all around, like Canada and the US and teacher influencers and they’re like, it’s having an impact in their classrooms is what they’re telling us. And we just keep, I just my whole thing is I just keep trying to follow the yeses. Yeah.

Alison : So yeah. Right.

Scott: If someone’s like, yes, this is working. It’s like, okay, how can we yes, more, how can we? Yes, better. And so, um, you know, we have these teachers that we’re doing like over multiple years, like multiple classrooms. And it’s grown into this thing that’s like in their gymnasium now where the kids create a story, they create a character. And then while they’re finishing their story, their character is being made. And in the end, they, they become fully legitimate little authors with their book that has the picture they’ve drawn and the plush stuffed animal that goes with it. And what what the teachers are telling us is like for the reading comprehension and, and for like improving test scores and reading, which is a major issue right now. That’s like, that’s my new banner, uh, right now is, is literacy, especially in the US. There is a, a crisis going on, especially in the third grade. Yeah. I wasn’t even aware, you know, I, we don’t, I don’t have kids yet, but hopefully in the stars at some point. And, but I was like, that can’t be real. The stats that people are telling me where over two thirds of third graders are reading below grade level, right? Like that’s crazy. That’s significant. And third grade, I guess is, this time I’ve been told again, I’m not. It’s this time. But now I’m so passionate about it. I’m just going to take it on as my own facts. But, uh.

Alison : That’s right.

Scott: The third grade is the moment where kids transition from reading to from learning to read to reading to learn.

Alison : Uh.

Scott: And after that, if you can’t read, you cannot learn at a level that, that helps you grow as a full human. And, and so it’s, um, it’s something that I think is so important and the stats are, are wild, you know, prisons, 75% illiteracy rate, uh, like or functional illiteracy or read at a fourth grade level, which again, it comes back to that third, fourth grade time, which is so important, you know, and then of course, you have the kids that are reading at a third grade level in the first grade, right? And they’re stoked to make a Budsies too, because they’re like, I’m a little genius. Check out my check out my character. Yeah, it’s no big deal. It’s a professional character I made. It’s no big deal.

Alison : You know, I think between the pandemic and social media, this the trajectory that we are used to of reading literacy has definitely changed. You know, I have a niece and an eldest child that are teachers and, um, it’s such a challenging time. And so I think what you’re doing is like fantastic. And I have to say, when you become a dad, you’re going to be the best dad.

Scott: Oh my gosh.

Alison : Look at your stuffed animals. Joy in it, right? What is the deal with you and stuffed animals?

Scott: Oh, I mean, I honestly, uh, before I came into this, I like, I love stories, so I come from a storytelling background and was working as a filmmaker and finding stuff, um, stories around the world. I lived in, uh, Latin American, Spanish speaking countries for over a decade, well over 15 years now. And, um, just love stories of all kinds, telling them, listening to them and have done, uh, independent films and TV and documentaries and all kinds of stuff like that. And so when I was looking at kind of different paths, I, I came and I found Budsies and there happened to be an opportunity there. And so at first I was like, no, that’s not a fit. I can’t, I can’t, I’m like, you know, it’s cool. And, and then my brain just wouldn’t let it go. I had just a million ideas and I was like, oh, that’s what every kid is experiencing. And I was like, this is amazing. And so it’s been a ride, you know, for the last five years since I joined. And now we continue to do fun and cool stuff. And, you know, my whole team will tell you too many ideas.

Alison : Paranoid.

Scott: Yeah. They’re like, let’s. So now we focus on one thing at a time.

Alison : That’s good. That’s good.

Jean : Uh, so, Scott, when you took over what I read. I think I read it correctly from a man, alex.

Scott: Yeah. That’s right.

Jean : Okay. So what what did you… So now you’re the new the the CEO.

Scott: Yeah.

Jean : And and so what was your now vision? How from where Alex was and like, did you have a different vision from him or just more expansive?

Scott: No, I mean, I wanted to like, I mean, I thought the and still think that Budsies especially is this fully realized thing. And so like, have you ever talked to somebody who’s passionate about restoring old buildings or old homes? They talk about being a steward of, uh, an idea or a thing. And so, um, that’s how I feel about this. And the goal is, is to be a steward of this platform that allows kids to be creative. And, you know, I remember growing up, there was a guy, uh, who was a family friend who was, I think he, I don’t even know what he did now. He was like a toy rep or something. And he would, he’d be like, yeah, this is just some new cool toy that we’re maybe going to release. And I was like, oh, this is the coolest thing ever. So the seeds were definitely planted early. Um, you know, I think that, um, so I’ve tried to stay with the heart of, again, like what the yes’s are around it. And I think Alex did a great job of figuring that out to start the company. And I think we continue to do that and to, again, like, yeah, to, to honor what it is to be a kid to see your imagination move into reality.

Alison : Oh, that’s beautiful, that’s beautiful. And I think, you know, that that whole thing Following the yeses. That’s almost like a spiritual mantra.

Scott: Oh yeah. Yeah.

Alison : Right. Is that is that how you live your life? Like do you. Do you have any like, do you do, do you do anything in the morning, like a spiritual routine? Or is it just you’re a very heartfelt kind of guy.

Scott: Yeah. All kinds of stuff.

Alison : Too many ideas.

Scott: Yeah. That’s right. Too many practices, all in one. Um, no, I, do like meditate and I, I think exercise is a form of medicine. Yeah. Um, I started surfing about five or so years ago. And so that’s been like therapy with nature. And, um, you know, there’s nothing like being lifted up by nature and going end over end multiple times in total chaos. And it’s like, it’s like an embrace, you know, and you come out of it and the the ocean, I firmly believe, I mean, it is is a giant battery. And we are these beings running on electricity at a mitochondrial level. And I think that there, I, there’s a measurable thing there that happens, and it can’t be like—- I was in a program for entrepreneurs in Georgia, some called leadership Georgia, shout out 2015, best class ever. Um, they, uh, you know, we got a chance to go into a nuclear submarine that was being refit. And as we’re walking out there, I saw this huge cage in, out in the I mean, it was the size of multiple, like a football field or bigger. And I was like, what in the heck is that thing? And I said, oh, it’s an electromagnet. And it turns out and I don’t think I’m giving any secrets away because there are definitely clear about what we were, you know, they were like, you’re not going to see anything you even understand. But that one, this one they told me about. And, uh, they after the submarines have been, you know, they, they’re like shielded from radar and the skin is, uh, has like a special something to it, but after it goes through the ocean for enough time, it gets a charge.

Alison : Oh.

Scott: So just the moving through the salt water battery that is the ocean, it ends up getting like a charge. And so they drive it into this giant like magnet thing and undo the charge so that it can be invisible again. And so.., I thought that was so cool. I was like, yeah, that’s like me just getting thrown over the top of a wave. I’m getting, I’m getting recharged.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : And, and I think surfing is, is a great metaphor for life. You know, it’s all about balance.

Scott: Oh yeah.

Jean : And being part of something bigger than yourself. Yeah. And and then of course, you know, getting knocked down and then getting back up and  it’s a great.. Um who wrote…?? Oh, Danny Miller right, wrote our, our friend of ours wrote a book about surfing the….

Alison : Oh yeah. Something… And his whole metaphor about surfing through relationships, you know?

Scott: Oh that’s cool.

Alison : Yeah, it was very cool. I have to tell you. I know that you have the screen on, but there is when you move a little raccoon that keeps popping out the side of your head.

Scott: All right, I’ll show you. I’ll show you what I have going. It’s a mess. It’s a mess. Oh, man. Let’s see if I can figure it out.

Alison : I’m dying to see it, because that little thing is calling to me.

Scott:  oh. Let’s see, how do I do this? Uh, I’m not a… There we go. Oh. All right. What was it?

Alison : It’s that little. No, the other way.

Jean : Okay.

Alison : It’s him in the red.

Scott: This. Oh, this guy?

Alison : Yeah, that guy right there.

Scott: Yeah. You know, um. I don’t know the story about. I forget the story behind this one. Isn’t he cute, though?

Jean : Very cute.

Alison : So cute.

Scott: This is one of the older buddies, which I just love, like teddy bear, like, uh, San Francisco business, dude.

Jean : Okay, so as you can see, our backdrop.

Alison : Is very boring.

Jean : Oh, yeah. No. It’s lovely. I love a beautiful accent wallpaper.

Alison : How do you how does buddies do it, though? If each one is individual, do you give it to one designer to follow through to completion? Like how is the process?

Scott: Yeah. That’s the secret sauce is there’s a whole technology platform in the background.

Alison : Wow.

Scott: And that allows our like, individual designers and design teams to be able to focus and on just like one at a time.  so, um, we’re able to distribute that. And then we have internal people looking at them, each one to make sure like, oh, this, we gotta tweak this and tweak that. And then, um, some people who want to be more specific, we, you know, work with creators that are sometimes want a level of detail that can be more difficult. And, and so we have a whole, we have what’s called specialty commission. So we lots of, there’s so many artists on the internet. That’s what’s so cool now is that there’s so many groups of artists, um, and they all like, they’ll come in and make a specialty commission, which is, you know, we send to our best design teams and there’s an understanding that there’s going to be, you know, more detail. And a lot of them have made their own artistic tech pack, which is super specific. And so we try and honor each, each one. Uh, and so, yeah, it’s, I mean, it’s a process for, and we see so many, I mean, hundreds of thousands of these we’ve done. And so it’s, it’s really something else.

Jean : It’s, it is really fascinating. And it sort of reminds me, but even at a much grander level, you know, like beautiful cakes that they people make cakes into rocket ships and castles and so here you’re making anything that is, you know, that someone draws and it’s you’re…

Scott: Yeah,

Jean : It’s fascinating.

Scott: And, and we do, we do these figurines too. This is a bobblehead.

Jean : Oh my gosh.

Alison : That’s a riot.

Scott: So my, my family, we, I don’t know how this started years ago, but.

Jean : Is That supposed to be you?

Scott: It is me. It’s an actual picture of me with a lampshade on my head from a cousin’s wedding. Um, because that’s the thing that we do.

Jean : We won’t go into that. Right? You’re wearing a lampshade.

Scott: When you’re on the dance floor.  Sometimes you just gotta zero in with that lampshade on your head. No distractions, you know?

Alison : That’s exactly right. Um, now tell u do you what is like the future of Budsies? Like it like taking on this philanthropic part of, of the work. It it sounds like that’s kind of booming?

Scott: Yeah. I mean, Budsies’ Pals is the heart and soul. I mean, when I watch, uh, when I watch videos of the people have sent us and things they’ve done, like I end up in tears every time. And that’s me, like in the magic thread and shout out to the whole team there, Patrick Green and, uh, and James and Ingrid and sorry, I have, uh, and, you know, in the future, like, yeah, I mean, we want to continue to see the impact on an individual level that we’ve experienced. And like that raw emotion is everything.  Ideally, we’d find an amazing partner for Budsies Pals that helps us, you know, really bring that to every kid going through a difficult journey so they can create the avatar of strength for themselves. And also the selfies or the Budsies selfie dolls are so powerful with kids that have limb differences or a port, or they’re going through something difficult and they get to see themselves reflected in a doll that’s professionally made and give it love. And then I start crying. And then, you know, um, and we want to grow the, the whole education and teacher side, because we’re hearing back that it’s just so fun for everyone involved. Like the kids are stoked about it, but also the teachers and parents are like having a blast too. And so I think that’s definitely, you know, where we’re going.

Alison : Oh, I love that. That’s a great answer.

Jean : Are you, uh, so are you looking to partner like with a hospital or a school or anything like that? Right. Because it seems like you do, you are partnering.

Scott: Yeah. I mean, we have.

Jean : I saw your website. You have a great website, by the way.

Scott: Oh, thanks. Um.  Yeah, we’ve partnered with, uh, hospitals. You know, when we have funds, um, you know, we, we try and just give away as much as we can. Um, and so I think, you know, if we could find that right fit, that’s also like maybe a larger corporation that’s all about like building and making and, creativity. I think that there could be a really cool partnership there. Um, but we’ve, you know, we’ve brought this to hospitals. We’ve worked with, uh, Ronald McDonald House. Uh, I think we’ve done things with, uh, some Saint Jude things we’ve done. Um, gosh, I mean, the list is long, like it’s too long. Yeah. I don’t want to start to try and recite it all because I know there’s too many, but, um, CHOA has been, you know, the Children’s Hospital of Atlanta, um, they’ve been an amazing partner. Uh, we’ve done some really cool things there. Um, we, yeah, we’ve had people that reach out, uh, because they’re going through something and they want to raise awareness and have kids do it. So it’s really like, you know, if we have the bandwidth, we help. But other people also say, no, we have financing and funding, and so we’ll come in and we just want to do this with our kids. So we really try and figure out a way to do it everything we can. And then, you know, and the core business is still bigger than Budsies pals by a long shot. But Budsies Pals, the heart is gigantic.

Alison : Right. Um. Do you. You said you get some videos of the kids opening these things.

Scott: Oh, yeah. Yeah. You got to check out our our socials. It’s great. The buzz on Instagram. Yeah.

Alison : I couldn’t even stand that movie.

Scott: Oh, yeah.

Alison : That one child’s journey, like, oh, I just I know exactly. It is such a like, I still have some toys from when I was little. And yeah, you hold them and you feel like I’m old and I feel like I’m little again.

Scott: Mhm.

Alison :  like that dog back there looks real to me.

Scott: The black and white one.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : The Aussie shepherd.

Scott: Yeah. You know what’s so funny is, um, when I first came into the company, i was walking through the warehouse and it was like a sample sitting there and I was like, oh my gosh, this looks exactly like my childhood dog. Yeah.  So I got Sadie and now she’s hanging out over my shoulder. Oh,  this back here is a giraffe, a butterfly that speaking of when we were cleaning out the house.

Jean : Oh, right.

Scott: Uh, I found a drawing that my brother had done in like the third grade, and it was of a giraffe, a butterfly. So I had it made.

Alison : I loved that. Yeah. Yeah, that’s for our listeners. It’s a giraffe  and he has beautiful, beautiful, like colorful wings.

Scott: Yeah.  It’s a giraffebutterfly.

Alison : Yeah. Obviously you said it perfectly. That’s right. I love that, I love that. Um, how were you raised? Like, what do your parents do? Like, was this like ever a part of any world you would have seen yourself in?

Scott: I don’t know, I mean, I’ve, I feel like I’ve had multiple lives already and I still love, you know, kind of chasing that magic, you know? And where wherever things go.

Alison : You’re Very young to have had multiple lives. You look very young to me.

Scott: Yeah, well.  At one point, at one point, I was I was 25 years old for five years.

Alison : There you go. Okay. That makes sense to me.

Scott: Because I was too I was too young. I was working on a documentary in Chile with a band from there, and we had to do like a press tour in Spanish.   And I learned Spanish in Spain. And then, uh, anyway, it was a wild ride and my, my business partner buddy almost friend… It’s a long story… Uh, who’s a photographer trained under Ansel Adams way back in the day. Oh, um, and I corrupted him into, into video moving images. And, um, we’re, he was like, he’s like, listen, man, this is a big deal. Like you can’t be 21, like you need to be 25. So just tell everyone you’re 25. So we go on, we’d go on radio shows and stuff and be like, how old are you? 25. And then afterwards for a little while I was like, still 25? Yeah.

Alison : Exactly.

Scott: Yeah. But I don’t think about age. That’s whatever.

Jean : YOU Wear it well.

Alison : Yes. That’s great… That’s wonderful. Um, I just love what you’re doing. And we think Jean used your Petsies.

Jean : Yeah.

Scott: Oh, cool.

Alison : for her mom

Scott: Oh that’s awesome.

Jean : So my mother, you know, she’s like, at the time, she was like in her early 80s and her dog passed away and she loved this dog, Oliver, who was a Shih Tzu.

Scott: Oh, yeah.

Jean : And I came across and I think it.

Alison : I think it is.

Jean : Petsies right? And so I said to my sister, you know what, for Mother’s Day,  Let’s have this for mom. Oh, and we weren’t sure. Was this going to, like, freak her out? Because honestly, when we got it, my sister says to me, and she’s in New York and I’m in California, she goes, Jean, this thing is so life like.

Scott: Yeah,

Jean : Mom is either going to be….

Alison : Or Traumatized.

Scott: I know when I, you know, and like, that was my journey as well, coming into Petsies’s where I was like, um, excuse me now.. Like this is, you know, but, uh, then I held one and now we do them where they’re weighted and they have a heartbeat as an option.

Alison : No way.

Scott: with silicone paw pads. And I’m holding this thing and I was like, I can feel like the emotion like, like it’s a, you know, it’s, there’s no substitute for a real dog, right?

Jean : Right.

Scott:  Or a real cat. But this was like something else. I was like, this is this is powerful.

Jean : And and it she loves this dog, Ollie. And she calls it Ollie. And sometimes she’ll like when I take my mom out and she’ll say, okay, bye, Ollie. And then she looks, my mother looks at me and she says, I know it’s a stuffed animal. Like she makes sure that, um, that has been a saving grace for my mother’s emotional well-being, that she comes back into her apartment and sees Ollie sitting on the couch and it just gives her, you know, because she doesn’t walk nearly as well. So it’s it looks so lifelike.

Scott: Yeah.

Scott: And that’s beautiful.

Jean : It’s just like a beautiful companion. And she is aware. She knows it’s a stuffed animal

Alison : right..

Jean : She said to me the other day, I think Ollie has a canker sore and I’m like… But it’s the tongue that is sticking out.

Scott: Oh, that’s so funny.

Jean : So but anyway, my mother loves it. I, you know, it’s a so even for older, you know, seniors it’s.

Scott: Oh yeah.

Jean : Lovely, lovely thing to have.

Alison : Yeah.

Scott: It’s powerful. I mean, I truly believe that there is something powerful going on. And you know, when you like our social media, our social media team, Sammy shout out, they do an amazing job. But it’s the stories and the videos that people send to us this that we repost. And you can see it’s just no words, just raw emotion of people like experiencing that love again, uh, whether it’s they lost their pet or, you know, living between homes or whatever. And you can see them like, oh, and the kids immediately like, oh my gosh, it’s Ollie or, And so I’ve been saying to my team, I was like, we gotta find somebody with like a functional MRI and like, have people walk through and like put a Petsies  in their, in their hands, and you just see it light up and like, because I was like, I want scientific proof because I know that it’s there because I can feel the tingles.

Alison : Right. Yeah. I love that. I mean, I just think what you’re doing is so wonderful. And I was so moved by you from that movie. And I hope that you get lots of peopple hear this…and  get tons of budsies.

Scott: Yeah. And Jean, thank you for sharing that story about your mom, that it’s those stories too, that like mean so much because when you’re just, you know, thinking about advertising numbers and like the technical stuff and paying bills and going through the whole deal, sometimes you forget.

Jean : And it truly was the best gift we got my mother. Um, It just brings her so much comfort.

Scott: Oh. That’s awesome.

Alison : So we just have two quick wrap up questions for you…

Alison : What do you think-  our podcast is called inside wink… What do you think inside wink means?

Scott: Okay. I thought about this. And this is something I don’t know when how long ago this came up, but it resonated so much with me and it was something I’ve thought about my whole life i think, I feel like I’m in constant communication with my ancestors and a lot of beautiful people, and I’m very spiritual in that way. And, um, and always asking for advice. But there’s this clip of Maya Angelou, uh, talking Maya Angelou. I’m probably messing it up, of course, but, um, she is talking about this idea that she would use this exercise when she would go on stage or in for an interview or whatever it was, where she would summon all of her ancestors to be there, and all those people whose love made it possible for her to be there, to be right there with her. And she said, it’s the strangest thing ther’s just magic around when you do that. And so to me, that’s a bit of an inside wink.

Alison : God, that’s. You’re very deep, young man.

Jean : 25 years old.

Scott: Yeah. That fifth year is a real doozy.

Alison : Right?

Alison : That’s so beautiful.

Scott: It means a lot to me.

Alison : I have seen that clip and i think that are there specific like, why do you think you’re so connected back to your ancestors? What what is that do you think?

Scott: Um, just, uh, I’ve been super blessed and lucky to have like, really beautiful and, and intelligent and interesting people in my family and history and storytellers and business people and kind of runs the gambit. And when you when you’re fortunate enough to have good examples, it becomes easier to try and follow those footsteps.

Alison : That’s so true.

Scott: Yeah. So I feel truly grateful and blessed in that way.

Jean : I love that you recognize that. Yeah. And, um, I like to call upon angels and my, my father and my husband, like, you know, help.

Alison : Yeah.

Scott: I don’t know what to do. I don’t know how to do this today.

Jean : Yes, exactly.  And, uh, it’s so true.

Jean : Yeah. There’s so much more that goes on than that meets the physical eye.

Scott: So yeah. There really is.

Jean : and that You recognize that? Okay, so the final question is, do you prefer cake, pie or ice cream?

Scott: Okay, so this one, Uh, I was born on the 4th of July, which is an interesting birthday.

Alison : Wow. Wow.

Scott: We have a gigantic family. So, um, growing up, sheet cake was always the easiest solution to have 60 kids.

Jean : True.

Scott: So the answer is, I love pie.

Jean : And I thought you were going to say pie first….And then you say cake. And I was like, oh.

Jean : I haven’t heard that, I assumed.

Scott: Okay. Yeah.  I just always thought that red icing tasted like a nuclear catastrophem… And but the pie… So then I had my, I was so lucky One year, I had my grandfather and two of his brothers out of four sitting at a table. My grandfather was in his 90s. He was probably 94. He got remarried when he was 89 to an older woman

Alison : An older woman…she was a cougar.

Scott: Oh, yeah… Mustang Sally,  and so we decided to have, we had multiple kinds of cake or multiple, we had a little cake, multiple kinds of pie and ice cream. And we decided with the four of us, what is the best possible combination?

Alison : Nice.

Scott: And all four of us landed on blueberry pie with coffee ice cream. And it’s got to be like a legit coffee ice cream.

Alison : Coffee ice cream.

Scott: Yeah. And something about that mix. You know, vanilla is a good second, uh, for blueberry. You know, chocolate’s better maybe with rhubarb, but… Yeah. and crumble crust, obviously.

Alison : I’m going to try that now… That sounds really great. And I love that that you that your grandfather was there.

Scott: Yeah. And his two brothers who were all, you know, like, like his two brothers were World War two guys. And he, you know. So really amazing stories. Yeah.

Alison : That’s fantastic. I can’t thank you enough. You’re such a sweet man. And really what you’re doing is, is fantastic. And I wish I had met you at the screening. So maybe our paths will cross sometime. So thank you so much.

Scott: yeah, let’s definitely stay in touch. And, you know, I’m, uh, we’re out in LA a decent bit for all kinds of friends and business and fun. So it’d be great to connect.

Alison : And so we would love that.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : Thank you so, so much.

Scott: Well, thank you all. And I feel weird because I’m talking about me the whole time. And I, I’m used to being like, tell me about you, but we’ll do that next time.

Jean : We actually love it this way.

Alison : But that’s not how it works. Scott.

Scott: Yeah, yeah, I figured I figured as much podcast kind of one direction. Yeah.

Alison : Thank you very, very much and have have a great day.

Scott: All right.  You all too. Thank you very much.

Jean : Bye bye.

Jean : Wow. What a really super nice guy and he’s only 25.

Alison : It’s amazing. I keep aging and he’s getting younger. Um, he was so funny.

Jean : He was great, very humble and very smart.

Alison : And for our listeners, he was sitting in front of like a, like a cabinet and it had that giraffe with a butterfly and a little like Australian shepherd dog and, uh, just a lot of little toys behind him that must have had sentimental meanings for him. And they were all just adorable. And I, I love a guy with stuffed animals. You know?

Jean : It’s Like a guy that wears a pink shirt.

Alison : Go for it. Right, right. Go for it.

Jean :  so if you have a sentimental pet or person or anything, actually, you can send a photo to this amazing company and they will create a stuffed animal.

Alison : For you, right? Or you can give to their fund… The the pal fund, and they can share and do that with a school or a hospital or something like that. I just think it’s a really interesting idea, you know?

Jean : Yeah. Talk about giving back and, and, um, just being a force for good.

Alison : Exactly. And he was so funny to me. I just thought he was just so giggly and fun, you know? I loved him.

Jean : Yeah, he was great.

Alison : He was great. So thank you, Scott. And thank you everyone for listening. And go hug a stuffed animal now.

Jean : That’s right.

Alison : That’s that’s your mission today. Okay. Bye.

Jean : Bye.

Jean : Cheryl Rice. When I say that name, what comes to mind?

Alison : Oh, Cheryl Rice is a friend of ours that we met doing inside wink. And she does the You Matter Marathon, which are little cards that say you matter with nothing else on them. And her goal was to give them out to people. And she sent us a bunch of cards. And when you give them out, you feel like it’s a little bit of magic. People soften and open and are just warm and caring. It just is a beautiful idea. And all of a sudden she emailed us, um, through inside wink, and now she is doing a You Matter Summit about mattering what’s actually called the Mattering Summit, about Mattering for people. They’re going to have lots of lots of speakers. And she said, like, like different thrusts. And I can’t wait to talk to her again. Right?

Jean : Okay. So I was looking back at our interviews. She is really a beautiful force, and I think she nails it when she says that, you know, it’s all about connection. And these cards just are like a bridge of connection. I also think Allison, it reminds me of insidewink. It’s like a little wink to someone.

Alison : Exactly. And you heard the knocking, right? Did you hear the knocking? That is, we’re getting a signal that we are ready to listen to Cheryl.

Jean : We are.

Alison : I can’t wait. Here we go. Here’s Cheryl Rice.

Cheryl: Hello, hello. Hello, ladies.

Alison : Hello. Wait, are we recording? We are. Hi. How are you?

Cheryl: I’m wonderful. And mostly I’m grateful. I’m just like, big, bow down to both of you for fitting this in. Just. Wow.

Jean : It’s really a pleasure. I, I was so happy when Alison asked and she shared the email so we couldn’t be more pleased.

Alison : Yes, we wish we could do more because we love the whole You Matter thing. We love it.

Cheryl: Yeah, well, maybe another time we can brainstorm because I’m always looking for ideas. Frankly, I’m looking for sponsorship because I…. Are we recording? Is this the podcast?

Alison : Yes, this is it. We’re doing it.

Cheryl: We’re doing it. Okay. So. Well, yeah, I mean, we can brainstorm, but we’re always looking for sponsors because right now, to be honest, it’s, it’s self-funded. So, um, yeah. And, and I think it shouldn’t be, but I’m not very good in those regards. So that’s my development. But what I am good at is spreading the message and giving people the cards and now doing the summit and just creating platforms where people can take action on this most impactful message and concept and necessity of mattering. So that’s, that’s where I think I, I shine.

Alison : Well, we talked in the intro a little bit about the you matter cards, but can you go into a little more depth about it and also what, what this means and what this next step is that you’re taking on this summit.

Cheryl: Yes. So I’m going to I’m going to start from the place where people may not know about the cards. Is that okay?

Alison : Perfect.

Cheryl: Yeah. So the beginning is basically in 2016, somebody gave me a card, a small card with only the words You Matter on it. And I was so touched. I honestly felt like I had been hugged and I ordered some cards of my own and I started sharing them with people first, just my friends and family. And then I got braver and started sharing them in the community with people I interacted with, like the barista who gave me my coffee or my dry cleaner. And every time I gave a card, people would stop. They’d catch themselves, and the impact I could see was tangible and visceral for both of us. And then one day I had, I think it was it was just it was a life changing experience. I was standing behind a woman in the checkout line of my grocery store, and the cashier asked her how she was doing, and she said, not so great. She said, my husband just lost his job and my son is battling addiction. She said, I don’t think I’ll make it through the holidays. I’m overhearing this and I didn’t know what to do. And I, you know, sometimes we’re in these circumstances and it’s like, you freeze. I froze, and so I didn’t do anything until we were in the parking lot.

Cheryl: And I just summoned my courage. I had a card in my pocket, and I went up to her and I said, I couldn’t help but overhear. You’re having a really hard time right now. I just want to give you something. And I gave her a card with just the words you matter on it, and she instantly started to cry. She said, you have no idea what this means to me and she asked for a hug. I gave her a hug. It was my last interaction. I went to my car. I started to cry and I realized, okay, it can’t just be me giving out these cards. We need to do more. We need to do more. I wanted other people to feel this incredible connection and power. And I think in that moment, this woman, this stranger, this woman who was suffering, I couldn’t give her husband a job or heal her son or even buy her groceries necessarily. But what I gave her was a moment of being seen as another human being. And her suffering in that moment, she wasn’t alone with. She was seen. That’s what all of us want. All of us want to be seen, right?

Jean : It is. That is so true. And what a simple yet very powerful act that morning that you had that interaction. Um, and the word mattering, I mean, there’s so much also scientific, um, backup to the importance of, you know, like when newborns are being held versus newborns that are not being held, that one thrives and one doesn’t. Um, and I, I just love your story and we can all make each other, we can support each other in that way.

Alison : Mhm. What is mattering mean to you? What does it mean? Like you matter.

Cheryl: Right. To me to matter is to know, respect and honor the inherent and irrefutable significance of one’s self and the other, to know, respect and honor the inherent and irrefutable significance of self and other. And that’s my definition. Now, there’s a lot of really smart people out there with research and books and but, but the word that permeates most definitions is significance. It’s seeing the inherent significance of another human being just because they’re a human being. It’s like this, this most indivisible quality of aliveness that should be so simple to acknowledge. And right now seems to be a challenge in our society. It’s it seems to be a challenge that we just give everybody, including ourselves, this acknowledgment that we are significant just because we exist. And what a miracle that is.

Jean : And we’re so not taught that.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : And I’m, I’m right now thinking about, you know, if you were born in a big family, you get kind of mixed in the shuffle there. And a lot of times we don’t feel like we truly matter. We sort of seem like we’re part of a group and, and it’s a fine line between, you know, we are all part of a community and group and family, and we, we do need to have that innate sense of our of our individual worth.

Cheryl: Yes. We need to have that. That is absolutely right. We need to have that Jean.

Alison : We’re living in a world, though, since we since when we talked to you a few years ago. That is is very challenging.

Cheryl: Exactly, exactly. That’s why I think this this work, this mission, this opportunity to, to spread the Mattering gospel, if you will, is so impactful. I, I truly believe we cannot heal the damage in our society unless we get this right. We can’t, we have to get this right. We have to be acknowledging that regardless of race, religion, sexuality, gender, political affiliation. Every human being matters. It’s just so simple. And if we can’t give each other that, we’re not going to be able to build the kind of societies and structures and policies that are really enabling and ennobling of individual well-being and societal well-being. So this to me, I’ll be quite frank with you. I feel like this is the most essential message of our time. I feel like we are in a crisis of mattering. And I feel like this word to say to you, you matter, is even more important than I love you. Because when I say I love you, we all want to be told we’re loved. And I’m not knocking that at all. It’s about me. I say I love you doesn’t mean you’re not lovable if I don’t say I love you, you’re still you, you’re still lovable, it’s a statement about me. What I have in my heart when I say you matter, it has nothing to do with me. I’m reinforcing the truth that you have significance just because you’re a human being. And people forget this, as you were saying, Jean. We’re not raised many people, some got lucky, but many people aren’t raised to believe that they matter no matter what. We’re raised to believe in what I call contingent mattering.

Jean : Mhm.

Cheryl: I matter only if I make people laugh. Only if I’m a size two. Only if I make this much money. Mhm. I have to earn it. I have to earn my significance rather than… Nope. You just got it. We need to be reminded. And we need to be the reminders as well. And that’s why giving out these cards and just to catch everybody up. So I started a movement called the You Matter Marathon –  No running required,  inviting people to share these cards with nothing on the back, just you matter on the front and nothing on the back to share these cards in their communities, with family, with friends. And we give ten cards for free to everyone who signs up to receive them. And what we learn is when people give these cards out, not only does it have an impact on the card receiver, it has a significant impact on the card giver. As we know, just in life, when you give generously from your heart, you get. It’s no different than these cards. So we call it the you matter twofer. I’m I have gotten a better sense of my own significance through doing this. You know, it’s made me realize and so many people today, you were noting the conditions, we’re all living under the challenges. And it can make us feel helpless. Like, what can I do to solve a war? What can I do? Like it’s so big. But guess what? You can grab a card. You can make a card. We have digital cards. You can print your own cards. There’s no excuse. You can get a card. You can stick a couple in your pocket. You can change somebody’s day. You may even change their week or their life. Because at the moment in time, when people get these cards, they seem to need them. One of the most often recited phrases when I give a card. And it’s not just me. Now we have data from hundreds of thousands of people telling us. People say, you have no idea how much I needed this today.

Alison : Yeah.

Cheryl: Probably the most often said phrase, one of them anyway. People need it.

Alison : Yeah. And I think it’s interesting that that when you say to someone, you matter, you, I feel like I matter then to by giving it out.

Cheryl: Exactly. That’s just that’s just right. Alison. That is exactly right. I’m powerful. It’s it’s, I have agency. We’re all capable of, of, of being an, a significant player in other people’s lives. We are, whether we know it or not. I mean, we know and there’s social contagion and there’s research. We’re social beings. We impact each other all the time. Why not do it deliberately and for the good?

Alison : Right,

Jean : Right.  And it, it shows that the interconnectedness, you know, when I, when I give a card, I, I feel, um, I feel better. Oh I can’t wait till they get to see that card. And you know, Cheryl, I had a bunch of the cards in my car, and my daughter borrowed my car, and she opened up the glove compartment and she says, mom, what are these cards? These you matter cards? And she, because there was no nothing on the back, so you’re not wanting anything, it’s not like a real estate selling, you know, there was no catch and she thought it was really cool.

Cheryl: I’m so glad to hear that.

Alison : I, I have given them out to people just walking down the street and people always just so like, oh, thank you. It’s like if you say to someone, you look good today or, you know, just, just to relate to someone on, on a, because I think, I think right now we’re dealing with a lot of people that feel disposable.

Cheryl: Oh my gosh.

Alison : Or disliked or hated or pushed out.

Cheryl: Yes. Marginalized.

Alison : Yeah.

Cheryl: We have entire communities of people who are in fear and feeling marginalized and being told in very clear ways that they don’t matter.  And it’s a very small sliver of the population right now that seems to matter. And I think that leaves a lot of people out. And when people feel like they don’t matter, bad things happen. And we know and the research is telling us loneliness, anxiety, depression, and even worse, people will act out. They will harm themselves or others in order to create a sense of mattering.

Alison : Right?

Cheryl: It’s not this isn’t a woo woo, just feel good hallmark stuff at all. Like this is the medicine that I believe our society needs right now to do the healing and to thrive. Like as I said, I think it’s the most essential message and we can all find ways of partaking in sharing this message.

Alison : Mhm.

Jean : Right.

Alison : Your passion is so contagious.

Cheryl: Oh, good.

Alison : I love it. You get me all like, I feel like crying and jumping up and running out with cards at the same time, you know?  What is the mattering seminar? The summit?

Cheryl: Yeah. Yeah.

Jean : So, by the way, you’ve got some fantastic guests.

Cheryl: I know!

Jean : I saw your lineup and they are wonderful!

Cheryl: They’re wonderful. And I can’t even believe it. You know, I, I still think, who am I? Like, it’s so weird. You know, I still am challenged at times with mattering, which, you know, we teach what we need to learn. So I’m like, oh, my God. Like people said yes. Like I’m astounded myself, I have to say, and grateful. So one of our board members, we were brainstorming, you know, we celebrated our 10th year of the marathon and we’re running along doing great. And we’re like, what could we do? And I think she said, well, we could, you know, mattering is having a moment. There’s a lot of great authors, um, researchers, books are coming out about mattering. So I’m like mattering is having a moment. We need it more than ever. These people are all kind of all over the place. What have we got them together? And what if we did a summit? And so we just brainstormed a list and we were hoping we’d get enough people to do one day of a summit. This is online and we have two and a half days. And believe me, it’s tight. We could have gone on. Um, and we just started inviting people and, and, you know, we asked, would you donate your expertise and time? And like 90% of people said, absolutely, I want to be part of this. I want to be part of this magnification of the mattering message… Amplifying it and finding out all the nuances. And what’s beautiful is there are a lot of nuances to this. So we have like three trusts, if you will, mattering to self. You know, one of the topics, the titles is what do you do when you feel like you don’t matter? Like hands up who can’t relate to that sometimes, right? So mattering to self, mattering between others, like interpersonally. We have somebody who’s a couple’s therapist talking about mattering and couples. Um, just certainly view matter marathon would fit there. How do we just interpersonally reinforce for others that they matter and then mattering in our society? What are some of the systems, the community based work? How do you design communities where mattering is front and center? So we have speakers and panels that fall under at least one of these umbrellas, if not some overlap. So I’m just astounded. And, um, we have most of the speakers are live, some will be pre-records all of the seminar. The summit will be recorded. Anybody can sign up for free. You can kind of come in and out for the speakers you’re most interested in. And we’re even giving away the, um, videos for free for the first two weeks after the summit ends. So if you’re working, you can’t make it. Sign up to make sure you have access to the video. So my ambition always is, how do we make this so accessible that people can’t help but say yes for the cards… That’s why they’re free,  for the summit. That’s why it’s free. There’s there’s no catch. As you were saying, Jean, it’s just like, come on board people like, get with it. We, we can do this together. And there’s gorgeous science. People are people much smarter than me who have, you know, rigorous backgrounds in academia. And they’ve done studies. And we want all these thought leaders together to share their brilliance and then in actionable ways, actionable ways, what we can do as practitioners and human beings and citizens at this time when the world is hurting… We’re all part of the answer.

Alison : Yeah, I love those. I love those three categories.. It gives me chills –  mattering to self.

Jean : Okay. So Cheryl.  When you’re having…  say you’re someone listening or just me, uh, you know, you’re

Alison : you’re asking for a friend, right?

Jean : Asking for a friend….That has, you know, a long brown hair. And so if you’re feeling kind of low, having a low, I don’t matter day or, you know, moment or whatever, what, what’s something that I can do?

Cheryl: So it’s going to sound cliche, but the first thing is just to acknowledge your own humanity. Like, yeah, this happens sometimes, you know, and I, when I said that you saw, I put my hand on my heart because I think sometimes self-touch really taps into self-compassion. So you could put your hand on your heart. Right?

Jean : Right.

Cheryl: Like I feel you. You could also experiment with putting your hand on your cheek, which is so darn tender… Like, oh, like, and then almost, you know, with that voice of someone who, you know, loves you deeply, like to speak to yourself with that kind, that kind compassion. Oh, sweetie. Having a rough day? You know, I, I get it, like, tell me more. And you could actually start a conversation with yourself from that place. I call it like we all have like, an inner champion. And if and one way to summon our inner champion is to think of somebody who you can count on as an outer champion. So it could, you know, people who do you know who would champion you? Who would be there and listen, what would they say? And just try to channel their voice. So that’s a very internal action that one can take is first just recognize and accept and acknowledge having a not so great day, feeling a little insecure, doubting your own significance. It happens. It’s human. I’m with you. You’re not alone. Then once we’ve acknowledged it, you could say, what do you need, sweetie? And talk to yourself. Ethan Kross, who wrote a lovely book called chatter talks about this, um, talking to yourself in the second person, like say, hey, Jean, you know what would feel really good right now? You know, what do you need? Do you need a walk? Do you need a good cry? Do you need to hug a dog? Like what? What do you need? Do you need to call a friend? And then the last thing I’d say that for me never fails, and this might sound a little corny, but when I’m really stuck in, I don’t matter, i have to kind of create evidence that I do. So I go to my local drive through of my Dunkin. I know it’s Dunkin now, not Dunkin Donuts, but I keep saying Dunkin Donuts. I go to the drive through, I order a cup of coffee and then I pay for the person behind me. I give the cashier two cards and say, please keep a card and put one in the bag for the next person. And I just scoot off. I don’t even wait to see the I just and I can tell you, I know in that moment my day is better.

Alison : Wow.

Jean : There it is. Love in action. That’s so you, Cheryl.

Cheryl: Well, it can be everybody. It’s you guys. Look what you’re doing. You’re creating these platforms. I mean, of goodness. And you’re still at it. And I was looking at your your your contributors or each one of them is amazing. Your, your podcast guests… I mean, you guys are doing it. So it doesn’t have to be sharing a card that says, You Matter, you’re demonstrating it, you both live it, you both live it. So I think taking a moment just to also acknowledge your own integrity around this topic is important.

Jean : Mhm. Mhm.

Alison : And I love also, can you you’re just…. I wish we could go out for coffee.

Cheryl: I do too. If you’re ever on the East Coast.

Jean : And a Dunkin.

Alison : Yeah. Uh, can you talk a little bit about what you said about, uh, mattering in society? Because I think so many times I have felt hopeless, like, oh, I can’t do anything about anything. Like I can, I write letters, I write postcards, I call all my representatives. And yet I’m just sitting in my house doing like, like, what do you think I could do?

Cheryl: First of all, you can be in community when you’re writing postcards because that’s going to feel better when you go. If you’re a marcher and you go to marches, you go. And that’s people say it doesn’t make a difference. That is so incredibly wrong, because it certainly makes a difference to the people who show up and feel the solidarity to say, I am not alone.  So anything we can do to reinforce the truth that you are not alone, you are not alone. So it’s always helpful to move in the direction of what you want to be creating in community, community, community, community. So I would say if you’re having a day and we all have them where it feels like it’s just bigger than me, it’s like, who can I join with? And now there’s so many ways or call me. And I mean that seriously, because I’ll help you brainstorm. What can you do? What can you do? Now there’s always an action and clearly, and I don’t want to like, there’s a lot of evidence that it’s making a difference. I don’t want to get too political, but we know it’s making a difference. It’s making a difference. And then can I just say one parable that I think is really important at times like this, there is somebody who she was picketing, like in front of the white House.

Cheryl: This is years ago. And she just every day she would go with her sign. I don’t even know what it said. This is a long time ago. And she would just march like every day, walk back and forth in front of the gate, and somebody said to her, you know, why are you doing this? Like, you think it’s really going to make a change? And she said, I’m not doing it because I want to make a change in them. I’m doing it so they don’t change me. I’m doing it so they don’t change me. So that’s why we get up the next day and we do our part.  So much that’s out of our control. But that can never be an excuse for not grabbing hold of what is in our control. Every day we live and we model for our children, for our neighbors, children, for the world’s children. We are modeling what is required to be a conscious, caring, compassionate human being. Um, and I truly believe that the world would be a more joyful and peaceful place if every human being knew in their being that they mattered, there would not be wars.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : I think you’re right.

Cheryl: There would not be bullying. There would not be guns in schools if every human being knew that they mattered.

Jean : Mhm.

Cheryl: And knew that you mattered. If we could look at each other, regardless of geography and where we happen to be born. And our skin color, a baby’s baby, a baby. This is not complicated, but somehow it’s gotten very complicated and that’s beyond my pay grade. But we can fix it in these ways.

Alison : Right.

Cheryl: Can I just tell you one more story… You know, you would think after 11 years I’d be out of stories, i’d be, like, blasé. I was visiting my son who lives in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, and he and my husband were playing golf, and I went into a woman’s boutique, and the woman was older than me. It was it was a little bit crowded. She was helping people so beautifully. And when I went to check out, I, as I often do, I said, thank you. You know, you’re juggling a lot. You were so helpful. And I gave her a card and she did start to cry and she said, you know, I just lost my daughter. And I was struggling to find out if I still mattered in the world without my daughter. This woman who was just getting, you know, pants sizes for people like so beautifully, you think she’s got it all together? She’s just a helpful store clerk, is grieving the most horrible grief. So then I said, you need more than a card. And I said, can I come around the counter and hug you? And I did. Well, then it was a small boutique, so other women were hearing this. They all came up and started to hug her too.

Alison : Oh, wow.

Cheryl: We’re all hugging this woman in a store when otherwise everyone would have just gone on their way with their purchases, thinking, lucky me, I got a pretty blouse. No, this poor woman’s heart was broken.  She couldn’t even believe it. She couldn’t believe it. So that is what that is possible for all of us.

Alison : Yeah.

Cheryl: It just takes an intention to say.  I’m going to look up from my phone. I’m going to appreciate the people in front of me. I’m not going to believe that there’s a stranger out there, because nobody’s a stranger. Once you look them in the eye, you ask them about their their lives, their pains, their hopes, their dreams. So I’m telling you, it’s not complicated. It just takes a decision. And being in community.

Jean : Right

Cheryl: You know, now you guys are a part of the You Matter community… And, you know, we share stories every week of people impact giving this message. And some people say, I don’t give out cards anymore. I just love reading your story. So fine.

Alison : You know, that is just such a beautiful, beautiful vision of these women hugging. And, you know, we talked to so many people on this podcast and it always seems that curiosity is this key element to realizing someone else is a human and someone else has a bag of rocks they’re carrying. Do you know? And I love that you were you opened up and were curious about this woman.

Cheryl: Well, she opened, she dissolved. I mean, she’s holding it together, doing her job. And then that’s what’s so powerful about this. It seems to like it did for me when somebody gave me a card. It’s like it went right into my veins, my heart. And I think it’s disarming for people to have a stranger, whatever that means, give them this message, it’s like, wow, you see me.

Alison : Right.

Cheryl: How did that happen? And then if if they’re feeling vulnerable, they, they let you know. And it’s such a gift. And it’s like in that moment, there’s no borders or boundaries or difference. There’s just who, who can’t relate to grief. So one of the most powerful Connectors is grief. And so we could just connect. And so much more impactful than anything I could have bought in that store or.

Jean : Yeah. You know, what you’re doing is really going into the, into our minds and into our hearts to become more available to each other, more connected. You know, we, we know that like, yeah, I, yeah, I know that, but it’s actually taking it a step further. You know, our actions are so powerful. You know, words are powerful and actions are another layer of creation. And, you know, I remember my, a friend of mine always was saying, you know,  we create with our, our thought words and deeds. And, you know, I love Cheryl that you’re taking it to the next level. There’s an action part, not only thinking, but it’s really beautiful. I’m really in awe of your mission. And, um, so. So I have a question about your summit. How many how many keynote speakers are there?

Cheryl: Yes, we have probably like 28 maybe. Um, some are on panels, but we have three days. Um, let me look at the schedule. Tuesday, May 12th from 11 to 1:30 eastern time and then 5 to 8. So Tuesday and Wednesday, May 12th and 13th, 11 to 1:30, and then 5 to 8 p.m. eastern time. And then Thursday the 14th were, I think 11 to 2:30 eastern time. So we have like panels are either not panels, but presentations are either basically 15 or 30 minutes. So it’s just, it’s like a little bit of a gauntlet. So I better not drink a lot because you won’t be getting up to use the bathroom. It’ll be like, okay, who’s next? But yeah, we hope to have some good interaction with the people who come to, you know, the attendees.

Jean : You will. And who, who is your co-host?

Cheryl: Well, thank you for asking. The Flourishing Center, Emiliya Zhivotovskaya. Oh my gosh, I’m going to mispronounce her name. So I’m going to stick with Emelia right now. She is the head of the Flourishing Center and she is amazing. And actually at the Flourishing center, I went through one of their programs on, um, it was called CAP a certification in Applied Positive Psychology. And I did my final project was the you Matter marathon, like 10 or 11 years ago. So they’ve been aware of the marathon and, uh, she’s, she’s an amazing, amazing woman. And the Flourishing center is amazing. And it’s all about helping people thrive and flourish using science of positive psychology to do that. And so they are co-sponsors of it.

Alison : Yeah. That’s fantastic.

Alison : And it really does not cost anything for anyone that’s listening. To sign up.

Cheryl: No..  It’s totally free.

Alison : You know, that’s the thing about you, you have no catch.

Cheryl: Right. That’s why there’s nothing on the back.

Cheryl: That’s what you were saying, Jean…. It would be a marketing piece, even though I used to have board members who said, just put your website on the back. I’m like, then it’s a marketing piece. I don’t care if it means people, you know, it’s fine. Yeah, there’s a purity. That’s why the card is black and white. Like, if it were my card to you, I’d have purple flowers on it. But that’s about me. Like, I wanted to make this as generic as possible. Let me show you something. This card, when the war started in Ukraine, that cards made in Ukrainian says you matter in Ukrainian.

Alison : Oh my gosh.

Cheryl: So I sent these over to Ukraine. I mean, my goodness. So yeah. Um, it is totally free because  why would we have a catch? Our mission is to get people on board and for anybody to feel like they can be part of this. It’s not exclusive. We want it to be as inclusive as possible. And it is. And it’s just getting the word out, which you all are enormously helpful in so people can have a choice and say, sign me up. And it’s recorded. So you don’t even have to attend live.

Alison : I know what I love is that you are a woman of your word. Do you know.. You really are like you are completely transparent about this. You’re kindhearted, you’re passionate. And it’s it’s got nothing to do with you except that, except that, you know, you’re doing good.

Cheryl: Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes, I am transparent. And then because it’s just, I don’t know, another way to be. And in the spirit of transparency, if anybody’s listening who would like to be part of this, we’re always looking for sponsors because right now it is frankly, it’s self-funded, and I do it because I believe in it and it’s okay, and I also think it’s the kind of thing that there would be organizations out there that would be proud to be part of something as awesome as the matter marathon or summit. Um, but again, I haven’t been that good at figuring that part out. But nonetheless, it’s not a deterrent to what’s happening now is really an incredible opportunity. I’m so grateful to our speakers, to you all and to the participants who are going to come, and then they’re going to change the world in their own way. They will find a way. They’ll smile at somebody. They’ll hold the door for someone. They’ll do a favor for their neighbor. There’s a thousand ways, 10,000 ways to let people know they matter. And you don’t even need a card to do it.

Alison : That’s right.

Jean : That’s exactly right,

Alison : Cheryl you are… Thank you so much for taking the time today…. Really.. We have two last little questions for you. What do you think inside wink means.

Cheryl: To me when I think of inside wink, to me really honest, I think of a moment between me and Source. Me and my Source, of just like a moment of connection. Like just a moment of connection between me and The Source.

Alison : That’s beautiful. You got me crying this whole interview, Cheryl. Oh, God.

Cheryl: But they’re good tears.

Alison : They’re good tears.

Cheryl: Yes, they’re tears of our humanity, right?

Jean : And they’re tears of inspiration..and this is something all of us can do in our own way, you know? Yeah. So true. Okay, Cheryl, so final question….

Alison : This one really makes me cry.

Jean : Yeah, I know. Do you prefer cake pie or ice cream?

Cheryl: I prefer ice cream on my cake, but if I had to choose just one, it would be ice cream.

Alison : Ice cream on your cake?

Cheryl: Yeah. Why not? You gotta go. Just do it,,, just like abundance with my sugar.

Jean : Go big or go home.

Cheryl: That’s right. Chocolate cake. Vanilla ice cream. What’s not to love, right? I’m curious about your answers to both those questions. If you could share them to both those questions.

Alison : I think for me, inside wink, uh, is like, um, I, I see the love in you. So then you, I’m with that comes the trust that you’re seeing the love in me. That’s what that, that no matter what is going on, there’s a part of me that understands and sees the love in you.

Cheryl: Oh my goodness. Beautiful. Beautiful.

Alison : What about you, Jean?

Jean : Uh, so for me, when I think of inside wink, it’s, it’s the, the divine energy within and going, you know how that expresses out in the world.

Cheryl: Gorgeous, gorgeous.

Jean : Um, yeah. And, and then on the second question, I would say I love all three, but I’m going to say cake.

Cheryl: My what kind of cake?

Jean :  oh, I would say German chocolate or carrot cake.

Alison : Me,  I go for the turducken. I would go all three. I have literally on my plate at Thanksgiving had pie, cake, ice cream and just ate it with abandon.

Cheryl: With gusto. Right?

Alison : Yeah, just, you know, just throw caution to the wind. Yes, I have an elastic waistband. Let’s do it. Do you know do it like with passion. So that’s for me. I, couldn’t, I don’t, I don’t even know why we ask it sometimes because I’m asking people to choose and I love them all. It’s like, you know, kids, you know, I love them.

Cheryl: Yeah. But it’s just fun to think about each one. So it’s all good.

Alison : It’s good to think about each one. That’s right.

Jean : Exactly.

Alison : Well, we’re going to we hope lots of people come and commit and we would love… Thank you so much for reaching out because I can’t wait, i’m going to sign up and then listen to it later. Yeah. Can’t wait to hear it. You really are doing great work and we’re so proud that we know you.

Cheryl: Oh my gosh, I’m so grateful to you. I’m truly grateful. I mean, you’ve been a wonderful advocates. So thank you. Thank you. And I hope you guys just are good, good in your each of your own worlds. And you are, you’re thriving and doing well hanging in there, right?

Jean : Yeah.  We are.

Cheryl:  glad you have each other, which is good.

Alison : Yes.

Cheryl: And it sounds like. Yeah, you have animals too, right?

Alison : Yes we have, i have two dogs. Uh, and Jean’s daughter has a dog now. So that that’s she’s like a babysitting a lot with Buddy.

Jean : Yeah.

Cheryl: Very good.

Jean : Well,  we thank you for reaching out, Cheryl.

Cheryl: Do you need cards? Because if you do, just let me know and send me the address and I’ll send you. I can send you a couple hundred cards.

Alison : That would be great.

Cheryl: Yeah. Just send me the right address, Alison. Okay.

Alison : Thank you. Cheryl.

Cheryl: Be good to yourselves.

Jean : Bye. You too.

Alison : Bye.

Cheryl: Thank you. Bye.

Alison : Oh, isn’t she fantastic?

Jean : She hasn’t changed a bit, actually. And she is as inspiring as ever.

Alison : she’s like bubbling over with how important this is to her and,  how important this is to us. All of us. And it it she got me all so teary eyed so many times just about the connection she’s making and her passion. Yeah. Cheryl, I gotta gotta hand it to you, you know? And I think she’s right. We have a loneliness epidemic going on, and just these little moments of helping someone see that they’re here and someone’s recognizing them are so important.

Jean : Yes. So I hope you have the chance if to go to this summit or it’s recorded as she said, and please check out, check out her website.

Alison : Right. It is the  Youmattermarathon.org.

Alison : I won’t do the New York accent.  https://youmattermarathon.org    And please sign up for this and you can just sign up and then she’ll have a recording of it you could listen to. I think it’s really important.

Jean : Absolutely. We that is such a beautiful act is to help someone feel that they matter because we’re all going through something and we don’t know what it is. And, um.

Alison : Yeah, and then once you, once you tell someone else that they matter, you also matter. Do you know, like I, you know, and we’re just so grateful for you guys and we hope that, you know, that you matter to us because you really do. All our listeners. Thank you.

Jean : Indeed.

Alison : All right. Well, that’s it. And you matter, Jean.

Jean : And you certainly matter.

Alison : So thank you. Have a beautiful day and a sign up. Youmattermarathon.org. That’s it.

Jean : Okay.

Alison : Bye.

Jean : Bye.

Alison : Oh, I love her. She wrote a fantastic book, “From both sides of the curtain. Lessons and Reflections from an Oncologist’s Personal Breast Cancer Journey.”

Jean : That is the book we are talking about with the author, Sue, Dr. Sue Wang.

Jean : I love her writing.

Alison : Yeah,

Jean : I think she’s an excellent writer.

Jean : And…

Alison : What?

Jean :  and I love that she opened up about her journey.

Alison : She’s very vulnerable. And, you know, I think I think being open and sort of telling you like she’s not perfect going through this journey, which I’d like to talk to her about, she sort of like, you know, I’m doing my best. We’re all doing our best. And I, I, you know, it sort of read like a novel to me.

Jean : Oh, I can see that.

Alison : It moved along.

Jean : I can see that. Yeah. That’s what I meant. That I thought she was an excellent writer. Not only is she a wonderful oncologist, but she’s a mom, and she’s an author now, and she’s got a lot on her plate. But I too, um, I love that she took the time to to pen her journey. And I know it will benefit so many people.

Alison : Sometimes when you say things, I just want to scream and hug you. Pen her journey —you’re like, sometimes you’re just so like, it sounds like we’re like an old England.

Jean : This is Emily Bronte’s…

Alison : Emily Bronte’s take on from both sides of the curtain. Are you ready? We’re going to do it right now with her.

Jean : Yeah.  We better get downstairs.

Alison : All right. we’ll be back….

Jean :  out of my closet and into my garage.

Alison : Now we have the best tour of Jean’s house. All right. Bye. See you in a minute.

Alison : Hi.

Sue: How are you?

Alison : We’re good. We loved your book.

Sue: Oh. Thank you. That means so much. It’s the first time I ever did anything like that. And, uh, it’s, uh. It was a little bit scary after I wrote it, and I submitted it, and then I remember thinking, what did I just do? Yeah. So I appreciate any feedback that is positive. So you don’t well, you don’t feel like you threw it all out there.

Jean : We both really thought we thought not only is she a great doctor, but you are a beautiful writer. Yeah. The way you expressed yourself and all the personal details. Really- uh, Alison was telling me it read like a novel. It it was beautiful.

Sue: Thank you so much.

Alison : I bet it was scary. How long did it take you?

Sue: Um, well, so I’ve never, um, I’m actually not a writer by trade at all. Like I was one of those kids um, I was very science and math oriented. Did not like English at all. Um, so I honestly, I really had no idea how long a book should take to write. So, um, but I had the basics of that book out in about two, three months. Um, and then I ended up tweaking, um, I spent actually all of last summer traveling the country with my son who was playing baseball. And there’s a lot of downtime. And during all that downtime, either sitting in the car or sitting in a hotel lobby or just, you know, just waiting for rain delays, I would just get online and start tweaking the book to, um, to make it sound more like, uh, you know, to make it sound more like me and make it more readable. Um, but yeah, I think all in, um, you know, the outline was October and then three months to put the base and then three months to tweak. So.

Alison : Wow, it’s so great. You know, we read a lot of books for these interviews. And normally I do okay, I have two weeks. I’m going to read 20 pages at a time. And this the first 137 pages, I’m like, oh, oh, then what? Oh, so it was it was it was great. Like really? You did an excellent, excellent job. Congratulations.

Sue: Thank you.

Jean : Yeah, yeah. And and for me, I was comparing your journey or not, I shouldn’t say comparing, but I was relating it to what my husband went through. And so much of what you wrote was what my husband experienced. The just, the just get in, do it. But I don’t want to get ahead of myself right now. So. So, um, anyway, thank you for being with us today.

Alison : And, and I think the biggest thing that we were both talking about is your vulnerability in this story, that it’s not a perfect journey. You’re not a perfect person. Um, you have, you know, you have kids, things get a little bit messy at times. How, how did that feel to be that vulnerable?

Sue: Oh it’s terrifying. I mean, you you have to understand from the person I was before, the diagnosis is totally different than the person I am now. I was very shy, I was guarded, but I really did my best to kind of let everyone know, like, I have my life under control. Like, even though it was under control. But it just, I felt like a chicken with my head cut off on most days. But still I give the impression like I am in total control. I can do anything that like that the world throws at me. And then, you know, then you get this diagnosis and you are faced with your own mortality and you start to wonder about the bigger picture, and you wonder about how are you going to make a difference? How can you make things better for other people? And I, I realized that when I went through this, a lot of people really, um, they really wanted to know my journey because, because this is what I do every day of my life. And just my perspective on things were just different than the average patient. Um, and because I just got so many questions about it, that’s when I said, you know, I, I think I have a story here and I think a lot of this would, this would help patients know they’re not alone. Because I think when you’re a patient, you get diagnosed and you don’t have the medical knowledge I have, then all of a sudden you’re totally overwhelmed because doctors are in terms at you and you’re just kind of like, okay, like, you know, Right? Yeah, yeah. But you have you have no idea what half of what they’re saying to you is.

Sue: So I want patients to know like, hey, I do this every day of my life. And I still was terrified and I still was uncertain. Um, and then for, you know, the other reason I wanted to wright the book was because I think as doctors and it’s hard to be a doctor these days, you know, there’s so much information coming at us. You’re dealing with a lot of misinformation from patients. You’re dealing with insurance companies, you’re dealing with hospital requirements you’re dealing with… It’s just it’s a hard profession. Like, this is not what I became a doctor for, this was not what I thought. Like I did not think this was how it was going to be. Um, but as you try to navigate being a doctor and trying to be a good doctor, you, you do lose, um, a sense of like the patient, right? Like your goal is to treat the disease, treat the disease, get rid of the disease. If the disease is gone and you know, you know, check one for us, but you have to remember the patient through all of this. And that was the other reason that I wanted to also share this. As scary as it was to just throw it all out there. I did want doctors that were reading it to know like, oh, this is a good reminder, like, this is all about the patient, you know, and, and we have to kind of, we have to calm that noise from everything else and, and focus back on what really matters, which is really the patient.

Jean :  right. Do you consider that like when you say that the bedside manner of your profession?

Sue: Yeah. You know, bedside manner is um, so I’ll be honest, I think just because you have an MD does not necessarily mean that you’re going to have like a great, uh, personality. Um, and bedside manner is something where it, it really is the art of medicine where you are learning how to communicate extremely complicated information to someone that does not have the medical background while also coming across as compassionate and empathetic. Um, and, and when you ask me what is good bedside manner, that’s kind of how I would sum it up, but I think it’s, it’s something that, um, it’s hard to teach. I think you really have to kind of understand it from the other side to really get a sense of like, what is good bedside manner. Um, and I know a lot of doctors, they get their bedside manner from having family members that have gone through health crises. And then when they are kind of in the thick of it with their family members and see how their family members are treated, and then that kind of reframes it for, okay, I didn’t like how my family member was treated. Um, and this is what I need to do in order to, to give the patients I treat, um, a better experience – but  bedside manner is tricky. You know, I, when you go to medical school, it really is just didactic, like it’s learning how you learn how the body works. Then you learn what the body is, what you learn how what a normal body is, and then you learn what a abnormal body is like. That’s kind of how they break down our lectures. Um, and then third and fourth year, you’re literally just thrown on the floor and then you just follow other doctors and around. Um, but when and I trained in 2000, so it was 20 years ago now and back then there was not a lot of emphasis on, um, how do you talk to a patient? How do you break bad news? Now, thankfully it’s coming into the curriculum. Um, but you know, when I was in training, that’s just not something that we focused on.

Alison : You know, I think too, uh, this book, even though your journey is with breast cancer, I think this book appeals to anyone because we’ve all been through trauma and how you dealt with like, like it made me think about, um, for me, the biggest, the biggest thing that happened to me when I was younger was my father literally died when I was 21. Like a little bit like what you experienced with your, the father of your children. And, um, I thought it was very interesting how you moved from getting your diagnosis to that lovely scene at the end where you’re watching the sunset on the baseball field. Do you know? Because I think we’ve all felt that. Could you just describe that a little bit? How you moved from like, really fear in the first half of the book to that?

Sue:  So how you get from one to the other first, it comes from, um, accepting your vulnerability. Right. Um, and kind of knowing that things are going to happen. Uh, and you can either have it happen to you, or you can try to turn the situation around and control what you can control. And I think being able to do that is really what took me from I’m going to die, like I’m so scared i’m going to die to  –  okay i mean, let’s be honest,  we’re all going to die, right? But while I’m here, I want to make a positive impact, and I want to appreciate everything that is around me right now. Like I can’t live in that fear. You know, it’s interesting… Like, so today my oldest turns 18 and he’s getting ready to go off to college. And, um, over this past weekend, I kind of had that same moment of fear where I had this realization like, this is the last birthday I will spend with him probably for four years. You know, because he wants to go to med school and residency and all that stuff. And I know how it works. I’m like, oh my, this is this is it. Like, this is it, he’s gone. And then all of a sudden, I got so consumed with fear that he was never going to come back to me. Um, and he, he just said to me, he’s like, mom, just stop. Like she was like, just stop. You know, like it’s going to be okay. And then once I was reassured,  once he reassured me like, okay, I am coming back-  it’s just because I’m 18 doesn’t mean I’m leaving forever. Then I was able to now like, okay, now everything I do with him just is that much more special.

Sue: Like, you know, I this morning and I’ve never been a balloon person, but I put balloons in his room. I put a Paw Patrol balloon in his car and he woke up and he was like, what is this? And I’m like, I don’t know, I’m just trying to appreciate the moment. You know, I’m living in the moment and I want to remember all of this. I want to remember everything that I do with you right now. Um, but you know, it’s very similar. That was, and what I did with him was just very similar to, I think, how I was able to go from fear to, wow, look at that sunset- you know, like, look, look at the sky. And I can’t tell you how many times I sit in the outfield and just I don’t even know what I’m looking at. And I just remember that day. It was just, it was orange and yellow and it was just glowing. And I just remember thinking, this is magical, you know, something so ordinary is magical. And I think that’s also kind of what this whole experience taught me is there’s, I go back to this noise, right? There’s, there’s so much noise in this world right now and there’s so much noise about like what is defined as an exceptional experience or an extraordinary experience. And I find that like, I don’t need to go traveling around the world and like, I don’t really even need to leave my house to find an extraordinary experience. Like there’s just extraordinary and just, you know, being home with your kids and being together and, you know, like, I just appreciate the simple things and the simple things drive me right now.

Jean : Oh, that’s so, so beautiful. That’s so, that’s so powerful. And, and Allison and I, again, before you got on, we were talking about that. And, um, yeah, it is the simple things in life. And so, so your journey from being a very intellectual woman into like, into your feeling more into your heart and, and, um, and so you, you talk about your community that was very important. Can you, can you share a little bit about how you, how, how your community of friends came around you to support you?

Sue: So they, they were incredible.  Um, and actually, uh, I always had them around me even before my diagnosis. I just never leaned into them. Um, I think when you were used to being hyper independent, the thought of having to rely on someone else, um, is what’s the word I’m looking for? Having to rely on someone else’s, like, oh, I, I want to, I want to say it’s like a weakness, right? Like, oh, I can’t do it myself. I need to ask for help. Um, and that’s just not how I was raised. And then when you get sick, you know, and like right after the mastectomies, you can’t move, you know, and then all of a sudden, like the day after my mastectomies, I mean, it looked like I was having a party in my house because my closest friends all came over and they all got in the kitchen and they made dinner for my kids that night, and then for the rest of the week. And then, you know, I was sitting, I remember I was sitting in the recliner in my room and they were like, hey, you should come out and sit with us. And I was also like half drugged up at this point as well. Um, and they like, they like assemble my recliner, move it into the kitchen. Um, so I can sit there with them while they’re all cooking and everyone’s, you know, my kids are coming in and out and for my kids, really the biggest thing for the kids is you want to maintain normalcy and to have them there when I am totally incapable of doing anything, but to still have my kitchen active and have people in there and to hear laughter. I mean, that that to me was a testament to how amazing my community is because they didn’t want my kids to miss a beat.

Sue: They didn’t want my kids to feel like, um, they were alone. Um, so they really rallied. And then even like the meal train, they said, hey, we’re going to start a meal, train. I mean, as soon as I got diagnosed, we’re going to do a meal train. And I’m like, I don’t need a meal train. I’m going to Uber Eats like. And it really and it also it was more of that mentality of like, well, I can’t afford to buy my food, right? Like I can afford to Uber Eats, I can, I can afford to take care of my kids. And that’s how I looked at it. And then once I was recovering and I realized it’s not really about what you can afford. It’s about when people send these meals like they’re sending their thoughts, they’re sending their love, they’re sending an act that they care. And, um, when you are just down and out like those meals, like you can feel like the support. And that’s what I like. It’s interesting how I was looking at it, right? First I was looking at it from, oh, I don’t need it. Like I can’t afford it. But then it was like, wait, no, this is them supporting me. And I could, um, and that also helped me heal, like knowing that they had my back. Um, so I had an incredible community. I mean, they actually had to extend the meal train because so many people kept wanting to bring food. So I’m just I’m so lucky. I’m so lucky. My kids are so lucky as well.

Alison : You know, it’s an honor to be on the other side of it, to be the one doing the meal. I think like I, a friend of mine had breast cancer, and I was honored to be able to go to all the appointments and sort of be a comrade through a lot of it. And I have to say, it felt like an honor because you’re really, uh, the other person’s allowing you to love them. And I think we’re living in a world now where we’re there. Uh, that might be more challenging like, than it was when my grandmother was living in a different type of community. Do you know what I mean?

Sue: Yeah, I think, I think right now we’re living in pretty lonely world…and it’s interesting, I talked to patients and when patients ask about my journey and I share it and a lot of them say, you’re so lucky to have so many people around you. I don’t have anyone, um, or like, um, I have an Instagram page and I did a, I did a reel about, um, my support, you know, I said, I don’t remember how it began, but essentially what I was saying is like, when you are really feeling down, this is when you need to lean into your community, you know, they have your back, you will have theirs. Like that’s just how it works. And the replies were interesting. Like the messages I got, like, it was actually one of my reels that like, I was like, oh, maybe I should take this down because some of the feedback was like, I don’t have anyone. Like, you’re lucky you have someone. I have no one… And it was, you know, my intention was not to make people, like my intention was not to show people how much I have, right, the point of that real was really just to say, look, like you, you have to lean into other people to to heal. Well. Um, and it just made me so sad that so many people out there were just saying, I’m alone and then, you know, and then from there, I was like, okay, well, let’s look at resources now. You know, the next thing I have to do is I need to get resources out for people that feel alone.

Sue: But you’re right, it is a lonely world. And I think especially nowadays, it’s more lonely just because, you know, simple things like meetings, right? All our meetings are over Zoom or over, um, you know, over the phone and you don’t even know the people are paying attention half the time. Um, but versus before, like when I, before Covid, I remember I had to get my butt down to the main hospital to sit with 20 other doctors to talk about our group practice, you know, and then after Covid, it’s like, okay, let’s all just do it on the computer, which is great. It’s convenient, but there is something about sitting across the room from someone that you don’t know very well. And while you’re waiting for the meeting to start, you got to shoot the…. You know, you just you just got to like start small conversation. And I feel like it’s from those small conversations that sometimes you build the greatest friendships and we don’t have that. No. Um, so it’s, it’s, it’s unfortunate because I do think in a day and age when we are getting sicker and more people are getting cancer and we’re trying to support them through that, but we don’t have a, we, they don’t have that that built in community that they feel like they can rely on. Um, and I don’t, I don’t know what the answer is. I just, I just, I just know it’s a problem.

Alison : Yeah. I think that’s so right though. That’s so interesting though, that that was the feedback from that…. Yeah. I would have thought like.

Sue: I really like this reel. This is so great. And then it was like, yeah, no, not that one.

Alison : Exactly. Exactly right.

Jean : That’s so true. I mean, what a journey. Certainly, um, the shift in your perception about so many things really, um, have grown you as a soul and as a woman. But I also, and, and I thought it was you articulated beautifully in your book and you give a lot of time to it about losing your hair, that it’s not like a vanity thing. And my friend, um, my girlfriend went through also pancreatic cancer. Uh, Lori and she, she had lost her hair. And I remember before she lost her hair, she was getting ready for chemo. I was going to say, well, it grows back. And something was like, don’t say that because would I like to hear that if that was me. Right? And I like you,you know, I, like, have long hair, and it would be a thing, and I… So can you talk about that part of your journey?

Sue: Yeah, I think, um, so I tried like, I, I really tried to do everything to prevent the hair loss, like the cold capping and, and also, um, if I’ll be honest, if I, if the cold capping was successful, it’s interesting if cold capping was successful, i don’t know whether I would have been as open about what was going on. Um, and it’s because when people look at me like before, right? Like they’ve known me for my, like, if you ask people to describe me, they would always just say, she has a really great head of hair. You know, like, um, and when all of a sudden it’s not there anymore, that’s when you look sick. Um, and if I didn’t look sick, I don’t think I would have, um, If I didn’t look sick, I don’t think I’d actually be sitting here talking to you right now because I would have had hide it. I, I would have just been, I would have been that person that said, I can handle anything. I can handle this cancer. I don’t look any different. No one’s going to know, no one’s going to treat me any different. So I’m just going to keep going down this road of like independent Sue. And then when you lose your hair, right, all of a sudden it’s like, okay, you definitely look sick. Like you can’t even go out without people staring at you. Because even when you wear a hat, like you clearly are wearing a hat because you don’t have any hair. And because I knew people were going to perceive me that way, that’s when I said, okay, I’m just going to be a little bit more public about this.

Sue: But as we talk about like this whole journey, like… When you go through something like breast cancer, and while most women can preserve their breasts, it wasn’t an option for me, right?  first the cancer took away my breasts, and even though I was able to get reconstructed to look like I have breasts, the fact is, they’re not my breasts. Um, and then also because I was hormone receptor positive and I didn’t, I just made the decision, you know, take out the ovaries. And then I said to the surgeon, well, if you’re down there taking out the ovaries, just take out the uterus. I mean, I don’t need that anymore either. So, but like, I joke about that, but you know, it’s like, okay, so breasts are gone. Um, ovaries and uterus are gone. And I, I get it like the ovaries and uterus are gone by my choice, but they’re gone, right? So then I’m like, okay, um, pretty much most of the things that define me as a woman are gone. And then all of a sudden the hair goes right and you don’t like, I just feel like with women, I’ve heard like your hair and your hair is your power, right? Like some cultures, like your hair is your power. And then all of a sudden I was like, oh, that’s, that’s gone, you know? Um, and when you don’t have. And in some ways I feel like maybe I was hiding behind it, right? Like I was hiding behind my hair. Because when you have a really good head of hair, like I just think people perceive you differently. And then when you don’t and you come across differently, you really have to think to yourself, like, who are you as a person? Like, why is this hair such a big deal? Like, you know, and like you said, it’s not, it’s initially you think it’s a vanity thing, like on the superficial level, it’s all about vanity…

Sue: But then when you actually dig down deep, you’re like, wait, it’s not about vanity. It’s just, it’s about the fact that it represents total loss of control to this disease that, you know, that just kind of came out of left field and took everything away from you. Um, so it, it, it certainly was a reckoning, um, reckoning with, with having to deal with the hair loss. But as you know, the interesting thing is as it grows back, you’re, you, I mean, right before I was sitting down to talk to you, I was like going to straighten my hair because it goes in all different directions now. And I was like, well, like, it’s really long, you know, like in two years, like it’s making a comeback. And I actually did the extension thing, but that, that it’s weird to have extensions. So I took those out pretty quickly. Um, but now that it’s come back, it’s like, yeah, you know, it’s interesting because I’m regaining my look back, but I am just a completely different person on the inside with a completely different perspective. And, um, so now even though I look the same, like I looked how I looked two years ago, like I’m totally not the same person. And, um, it’s just a weird transformation. It’s a very different transformation.

Alison : And like, so all of this, um, when did you actually go through your journey? When did, when was that actually, was it.

Sue: Two years ago? Two years ago. Yeah.

Alison : So now that. So now here you are. Right. You’re still. First of all, your dog is really cute.

Sue: And I’m hoping my kid just open the door to let him out. And he didn’t open the door and let him out.

Alison : I loved your dogs in the book. Yes, I love, first of all. So he’s like a celebrity when he was on the couch to me. Um, so when um. Now how how are you moving now? Like, are you are you feeling, uh, strong? Do you still have the awareness of every pain? Do you like where where are you like today?

Sue: I’m very aware. I’m very aware that I went through breast cancer treatment even two years out. Um, so, uh, just an example this afternoon, I, you know, I had to pick my kid up, took him to the trainers, went shopping, and then sat in the car waiting for him. And then we get out of the car when we get home and he’s like, why are you limping? And I’m like, I’m like, I was just sitting in the car for three hours, kid. Like, you got to give my bones a little time to adjust, you know? And he’s like, okay, is there anything I can do? Like, you don’t look okay? And I’m like, it’s okay. Just give me a minute and then I will stop limping, you know? But like, it’s like examples like that where this treatment, even though and I’m still on maintenance treatment, which a lot of breast cancer patients are on, which is essentially a pill that takes away your hormones, um, which is also why some of my symptoms really still persist and which is also why breast cancer survivors, um, need so much more support than they actually get. Um, but like, I am still acutely aware of the treatment just because like the aches, the pains, the hot flashes, um, and then, you know, also you’re weaker, like you feel weaker. Um, and a lot of it is, you know, and I think I’m fortunate because right now we’re on a day and age with women’s health, where a lot of attention is being put on how to get women, how to get post-menopausal women healthy again.

Sue: You know, like for the longest time, like we have been doing a great job of educating doctors and patients on how to take care of post-menopausal body. And now, thankfully, we’re getting this huge push of awareness on these are the things you do, these are the things you eat. This is the type of exercise you need to do. So we’re getting really specific instructions on how to actually thrive when you don’t have estrogen. So whether it’s natural menopause or whether it’s medical menopause, uh, I’m, I consider myself extremely fortunate to have gotten this disease in an age where there is progress being made on how do you make patients feel better? Um, but it’s a, it’s still a long road. I mean, it’s like every day you have to do something just to keep your body moving and to kind of just keep yourself healthy. So it is almost like this constant reminder. And I’ll be honest, I think the, um, most sobering part of this diagnosis for me was realizing that the hardest part is actually the survivorship. Like the treatment actually, to me, I just kind of blew through. You know, it’s like, because you and I’ve heard patients say this to me and I never quite understood it, but like when you’re going through treatment, you have purpose. You have a plan, you have constant surveillance by your doctors, you know where you’re going and like, you’re just so focused on what you are doing, right? And then all of a sudden you get through treatment and then it’s like, ring the bell, everyone’s celebrating. And meanwhile you’re kind of like, what am I celebrating? Like, you know, everyone around… I rang the bell because like, they had a party, so I had to ring the bell. Um, but I just remember thinking, like, what now? Like, what do I do now? Like the treatment’s done, but now I have to figure out how to live after this diagnosis. It’s like. Right? Like your life is split in two. It’s like and kind of like what you were saying, it’s like with any trauma, it’s like life pre-trauma, and then life post-trauma– and  for breast cancer patients, i just felt like it was like, okay, we don’t tell them what life is supposed to be like after the diagnosis, and because I think we do such a good job of like celebrating them at the end of treatment, they don’t want to tell a lot of people that they’re still scared and that, you know, like yesterday I saw a patient and I just said she was coming to the end of radiation, and I just said, okay, how are you feeling? That’s all I said, how are you feeling? And she just broke down in tears. And she’s like, I’m almost done with radiation and I am so scared I am going to die.

Alison : Yeah.

Sue: And she and it doesn’t matter that you’re telling me I have stage one disease. I understand that I’m scared I’m going to die. I don’t want to tell anyone because I know there are people in that waiting room that have stage four cancer and they’re, and I, I, I don’t want to seem like I’m, I’m discounting what, you know, I don’t have a, I just this conversation was just so it was such a good reminder to me because she just was like, I was sitting next to a lady with stage four cancer, like she’s going to die of her cancer, you know, who am I to sit here crying about my stage one cancer? But the fact is, I am consumed with the fact that this is going to kill me, you know? Um, and then from that, we just kind of, I always go through steps with patients that feel like that. And they’re the same steps that I take. Like when, when you feel like you are just being swallowed by the world and you don’t know what to do. And I just, I just said, hey, look, don’t look at the I always tell patients don’t live in the future. The future is unknown. So trying to figure out what’s going to happen, what’s not going to happen. Like it doesn’t get us anywhere. And because right now you are so consumed with just this fear, what I need you to do is I need you to I need to bring you back to today.

Sue: Like, let’s, let’s focus on today. And what I want you to do is every day, you’re just going to take it in 24 hours. Like I don’t want you to tell me what you’re doing tomorrow. I want you to tell me what you’re doing today. And then tomorrow you’re going to tell me what you’re doing tomorrow. Um, and it’s like, if you just kind of break down your world into like a box and you’re going to focus your efforts in this box, then I feel it does kind of help to, to bring down some of that fear because you know, what you’re doing today. Like, you know your schedule, like you, you, you know, and that certainty helps you calm that fear. Um, and then the other thing I told her is I need you to do something that’s not breast cancer related. You know, like I think when you go through the diagnosis, everything you do, it feels like it’s like revolving around breast cancer. I said, look, go for a walk or like, go make yourself a cup of coffee or, I don’t know, go play ping pong. Go do something that does not remind you of breast cancer. You know, get one activity and do it every single day because that is your time away from this disease. Um, and she. Oh, I think he’s back. Hold on. He’s going to he’s going to knock down the park.

Alison : I love that. Hi!

Sue: So this is Nacho.

Jean : Nacho, what a great name.

Sue: Hey. Come here.

Sue: Can you see him?

Alison : We can just see the top of. Oh, there. Oh, hi….

Jean : He’s a bull,

Sue:  He’s a Cane Corso. I like, I like him big. The the cane Corso I wrote about in the book. He actually died last summer.

Alison : Oh. I’m sorry.

Sue: Yeah. It was it was a that was a shock. Uh, and then, um, like two days later, I went out and got a puppy and my friends were like, man, you don’t slow down. And I’m like, I don’t know, I just there’s something very comforting about having a ginormous dog, especially when you’re like, you know, a single mom with three kids in a house.

Alison : Yeah, totally. You know, it’s interesting your story because, um, my friend was, went through, uh, breast cancer when, when she first got the diagnosis, she was just beyond herself hysterical. I’m going to die. What about my son? And we were very close and, and I remember saying to her, where are you right now? And she said, I’m in, i’m in the park. And I said, go stand under a tree. That’s where you are like, you’re alive. Your son’s okay. And I think what you’re saying, like, bring yourself back into the now and see really where you are. And I think that really is like, like advice for even living in these in this world right now. Do you know?

Sue: Yeah, because everyone does, you know, there’s a great quote. I heard it said presence is the antidote to fear. Mhm. Um, and it’s so true. It’s, it’s, it’s, we’re so consumed with kind of the future and what things should be like in the future, right? And we let all of that anxiety just consume us where we’re missing the big picture, like we’re missing what is right in front of us.

Jean :  and you give another great tip, um, to help your to help clients or patients, which is gratitude.

Sue: Yes.

Jean : You have to cultivate an attitude of gratitude.

Sue: Yes. Um, my, my, one of my best friend’s mom says gratitude is the only attitude.

Alison : Oh that’s right, that’s right.

Sue: But you know, I mean, right. It’s so to be able to take any situation, no matter how dire, and to have the ability to reframe it where you can find something good about it that is so powerful because, that’s also part of the whole taking back control. You feel so– you feel like you’ve lost total control when you get a diagnosis like this, or like if something, something unforeseen happens like it is and, and it is an uncontrollable situation. And I think by helping people feel like they are in control, that is, that is a critical step to recovering from anything. Um, and gratitude is so critical because it’s like, if, you know, if you can take a situation where it’s like, okay, that person has, I’ve had stage four patients, right? Um, and it’s interesting, I learned so much from these patients because they really, um, I mean, they have nothing left to hide, right? And they are just going to leave it all out there. And they say some of the most insightful things and to have someone who’s dying from cancer say, I am so thankful that I met you. Like for I am so thankful for the care that you give. And you know, it’s it’s touching because you’re like. I can’t cure them, right? I can’t, I can’t cure their cancer yet they’re sitting here and they’re just so thankful that like, I’m their doctor and like, there’s just no words to really express how much that that means to me as a doctor. But also when you are in a situation that you’re kind of die of your cancer and you’re still finding things to appreciate, it’s just, um, I don’t know, it’s, it’s amazing that people can do that.

Alison : That’s very, very beautiful.

Jean : So, so beautiful. I mean, I, and I, I love what you say and you’ve said it throughout your book about reframing. And I know for myself, if, if I’m challenged in something, I will ask my you know, I’ll, I’ll sit in silence and I’ll say, how? How can I see this differently? Because I’m seeing it either where I’m a victim or I have no power or whatever. And it might not come right away, but then I’ll get.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : I’ll talk to Alison or I’ll talk to someone else that will help me reframe it. And, um, yeah.

Alison : So what would you say next? Is your biggest desire like or goal or dream or like, do you, do you like your kids going to college?

Alison : Like that’s?  Well, we have kids that have gone to college and that’s a, that’s a, that’s a time.

Jean : It’s a new chapter.

Alison : You can call us if you want.

Sue: Sorry.  Uh, when he barks, when he barks, he can’t hear anything else in this house.

Alison : That’s okay. We’re good.

Sue: Um, can you still hear me? Even though he’s barking?  Okay. Oh, my gosh, this is the worst. I’m sorry. I’m so embarrassed.

Jean : You actually don’t hear him.

Alison : And we don’t hear it. And we love dogs. Our dogs have barked during interviews. It’s just life. It’s totally fine.

Sue: I’m sorry. Can you ask me the question again?

Alison : Sure.  do you have any dreams or goals?

Sue: Oh. Yeah. You know, um, my goal now is… So I tried, i always try now to find purpose in everything. And when I think about what is my purpose, like, um… I feel like I got this cancer, lived through it to come through and help women who are surviving from cancer. Um, because it is such a neglected part of cancer care. Now it’s getting better. Okay. I’m going to fully admit, like, bigger institutions are having programs called survivorship clinics where we are helping guide women through this. But the problem is, right, like 70% of the patients in this country are treated in a community hospital or an overall hospital where you don’t have access to survivorship care. Because the unfortunate thing about survivorship care is this it doesn’t make money. Like it’s about counseling patients. It’s about educating patients. It’s about teaching them about lifestyle medicine, and also more importantly, telling them that they’re not alone. Um, that doesn’t make hospitals money. And unfortunately, if it doesn’t make money, it’s really hard to build a robust program throughout the country. And what I want to do now is I want to figure out a way to, regardless of where you are located, whether you are in the middle of Arkansas or whether you’re in New York City. Right? I want to figure out a way to make survivorship care accessible for every cancer patient out there. Um, because I don’t think it should be something that’s just, um, it shouldn’t be something that’s limited to places that can offer that care. When you ask me, what is my new vision? This is kind of the latest project that I’m working on.

Alison : That’s fantastic. Thank you. Thank you for doing that.

Jean : Yeah. Thank you.  It’s so important.

Alison : We  ask our two final questions at the end of our interview. And our first one is, what do you think inside wink means?

Sue: Sorry, my kid, I just went to like a two year old brain right there. Um.

Alison : You can say it. We’re into it.

Sue: Um, okay aside from tooting. Um, inside wind….

Alison : I love that.

Sue: Oh, sorry. Sorry. you have to understand, I have three boys, so, uh, well, now 18, 15, 13 and like, we get lots of interesting smells. So. And then also three dogs. So when you say inside wind, when my mind is like, that’s exactly what it reminds me of. Um, but inside wind, when I mean, when you ask me that question, I guess it’s, it’s that, um, inner energy that, that motivates you to, to, to do something. It’s, it just when you say inside wind, it just feels like, it’s like an internal energy that we all have in us, that we just kind of need to figure out how to, how to harness it in order to like a windmill, like create some type of power.

Alison : I love that.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : That’s beautiful. And that’s what’s going to happen with your survivorship,

Sue: I hope, I hope.

Alison : Yeah, it’s great.

Jean : It is… I have a good, good feeling. I had little chills when you were talking about it. Okay. So Sue, do you prefer cake, pie or ice cream?

Sue: Pie…You know, my favorite pie is?  that silk.. Um. Oh my gosh, when I had my first kid, I, I weighed in at like 205 pounds, which was 60 pounds over what I’m normally. And the baby was only ten. And it was because I ate a silk chocolate pie, like pretty much every day of my pregnancy.

Alison : Oh my gosh.

Alison : Mine was macaroons.

Sue: Oh, those are good too.

Jean : Mine was chocolate chips.

Jean : Okay. Well, I love that pie you’re talking about. Yum.

Alison : Thank you so much. You’re just such a …I feel like I know you, and so I really appreciate your book and who you are as a person. You’re really fantastic. Thank you so much.

Jean : And I know that the book you wrote is it’s really blessing so many people and inspiring people to live more day to day in gratitude, in presence. And not that we, you know, we, we have, we get so distracted in this world, but, you know, we’re on to it. And we know that’s a superpower.

Sue: I am so thankful that the two of you have given me the opportunity to share my book and just help me get the word out. And, um, and I, I love this, I love talking to you guys. It’s, I feel like we’re like, you know, sitting, having a cup of coffee with my dog too.

Alison : Thank you so, so much.

Jean : Yes.

Alison : Have a wonderful rest of your day.

Sue: Great. Take care. Nice to meet you. Bye. Well.

Jean : Another beautiful interview. Wow. she’s amazing.

Alison : She’s just been through a lot. Like I was just saying in the book, she goes through a lot in that book and the kids and the family and and yet you can, you can really hear her spirit and her dedication to, to living a full life right now, you know?

Jean : Right. And I mean, she’s so young that she’s gonna, you know, now that she’s, she’s learned all these really deep life lessons… I mean, she’s just gonna be such a powerful.

Alison : I was just going to say a powerhouse of.

Jean : Of love and light and support for countless people.

Alison : And it’s interesting because when you meeting all these people, like when we do these interviews and everyone’s got their own story, you know, their own thing. And yet they get through it. And they, they they’ve accumulated  gifts from it, from the universe, from their friends, from their family,

Sue: Because as she said, she chose, I mean, you, you can ask, i think that’s the thing that she wants to see the gift that someone wants to see the gift in their challenge like. That the gentleman we interviewed, the magic in the tragic.

Alison :  right.

Jean : Because you can easily go the other way and it’s just not a good thing.

Alison : No.  well, you leave, you leave feeling that journey is desperate and hollow. And when you see this woman, you know, um, I hope the picture that we pick. She just has she has joy in her and she’s glowy. And yes, the dogs are walking around. You know, and the way she described her kitchen just full of life. And I think everybody likes that. What a simple thing, you know. Right. But we’re so lucky.

Jean : We are so lucky. Blessed and grateful.

Alison : So yeah. Thank you so much, doctor Sue. We really love you. And to all of you, it’s a great, great book if you can pick it up.

Jean : Very enjoyable to read.

Alison :  From both sides of the curtain, by Dr. Sue Hwang, MD

Jean : Got a lot of humor in it and, um, and it was great.

Alison : It was excellent. Yes. Have a wonderful day. You too, Jean. Have a wonderful day.

Jean : Thanks, Alison. You, too. Okay,

Alison : Bye.

Alison : We have no windscreen today, so we’re going rogue, Jean

Jean: What’s a windscreen?

Alison : That thing that comes over it to cover the microphone.

Jean: I didn’t even notice it, actually.

Alison : Really? it’s a free naked mic, isn’t it nice?

Jean: Looks nice.

Alison : Yeah. Hi.

Jean: It’s unencumbered.

Alison : It’s unencumbered. It’s free. It’s a free spirit.

Jean: Right.

Alison : How you doing?

Jean: I’m good.

Jean: How are you doing?

Alison : I’m good. We’re just talking about chapped lips.

Jean: Right.. Because it’s been so dry here and my lips get really chopped.

Alison : Me too.

Jean: I’m always putting on some type of lip balm.

Alison : Um, do you follow astrology?

Jean: No, I don’t follow astrology. But that being said, I’m way more interested in it now because of the wonderful book we just read.

Alison : Yeah, I really liked this book. I had a friend. We both had a friend, Donna, that really was very into horoscopes and astrology, and her enthusiasm kind of wore off on me. And so I really enjoyed talking to her about it. And I feel the same way about Maddy. When someone’s really passionate about something, then I like, glom on and enjoy it. Mhm. Do you know what I mean?

Jean: Absolutely. It like opens up a new, uh, creative expression. And I have to say, I always thought that astrology was on the confusing side and, um… What house you’re in… And this is… And, and she has broken it down so beautifully that it really made me want to engage in it more.

Alison : Right. Yeah. It’s like how I felt when you and I. You convinced me to bake a German chocolate cake for Dan. You broke it down. Your passion was there. Do you know what I mean? And I’m like, let’s do it. Yeah. You know, she’s great. Her name is Maddie Murphy, and I can’t wait to talk to her. She wrote a book called In the Cosmic Zone. Embody the 12 astro archetypes to unleash your genius and activate your authentic self. And it’s interesting. She takes astrology and puts it on another level. Like, it’s not really about astrology. It’s not like what? Moon? Like it’s just really about how you can live your life, don’t you think? This book.

Jean: Yeah, I think it’s it’s, um, as she writes, because I’m taking this…. It’s, um, noticing your patterns and understanding your gifts. And it’s it’s like a roadmap or a.,, Yeah, like a roadmap to your own to your soul. So that is all.

Alison : That’s right.

Jean: Yeah, but that came from her book somewhere. But I’m just remembering it.

Alison : But that’s really good. I mean, I really I can’t wait to talk to her.

Jean: I know, and okay… Besides being so fantastic as this, um, cosmic Rx writer who calls herself head, which,  she’s just such a….

Alison : Her writing is fun.

Jean: Her writings fun, but her personality is so gorgeous. I really listen to her on other interviews. So this is going to be.

Alison : It’s going to be great. Are you ready?

Jean: I’m ready.

Alison : Okay, here we go.

Alison : HI!!

Madi: Can you hear me?

Alison : Yeah,

Madi: Always, always the hardest part of just life is the technology. So once that’s on board, I’m, like, smooth sailing from here.

Jean: Who knew that we would have to become so tech….tech people.

Madi:  I did not sign up to be an AV. I’m like, I am a creative. I’m a storyteller. You think I know? It gives me so humble though. It keeps me so humble, I love it.

Jean: That’s so true. There’s nothing about embracing your inner techie in your ,  in the cosmic zone.

Madi: No, it’s like I can live in the cosmic zone. I can help you manifest your dream life. We can heal, we can co-create. But don’t ask me to understand why, sometimes the audio input works and other times it doesn’t. You know, like, don’t don’t ask me.

Alison : So true. We’re always, like, sitting here like this before.

Madi: Like like nothing changed. But I’m like, it just might not work this time.

Alison : Exactly.

Jean: And we’re recording. Alison.

Alison : That’s right. We did it. I’m Alison, Madi

Jean: Hi, Madi, and i’m Jean.

Madi: Hi, Jean.

Jean: Thank you so much for saying yes to being on our podcast. It’s, um, really wonderful to see you via zoom, but to have the time to talk with you.

Alison : Your book is so interesting. It’s not at all what I thought it was going.

Madi: And I think I like that…

Alison : Because, you know, you hear astrology and we all have our built in, like conformist stuff. Like I was like, oh, do I have to hear about, like, a moon thing? But it’s not like that at all.

Madi: Okay. Thank you. I’ve obviously talked about this a lot, and you’re the first person who really, like, picked up what I was putting down, I was like, I just wanted this to be a book that you could be really into astrology or kind of eye rolling at it and still get something out of it in just astrology for me, is just this beautiful lens and framework for understanding our journey of being a human, and there’s so much to unlock there that we don’t even have to go into the like Saturn and Venus of it all and the like some of this mumbo jumbo that we’re like, what? What’s sextiling who? Um, more just like the journey, right of of of this, like beautiful, um, archetypal like toolkit that I think the universe gave us. So thank you for, um, just mirroring that back so beautifully.

Alison : And I also feel like, you know, um, at least I am like, the person that I’ll read horoscopes and I’m like, oh, I’m not a Taurus skip. Like, oh,  I’m a Virgo,  so let’s see what that says. But then in this book I have learned that really all of these I am all the cosmos.

Madi: You are. Sing it baby, like you are all the cosmos…. Isn’t that, like, so beautiful and delicious? And it’s also this crazy reminder of like, oh yeah, like this moment in time we’re in. Even in history where we’re like, wow, we’re so different. We have to own our authentic self. But we’re all like the same thing, just different. Like proportions of the same ingredients. Right? Like that’s actually a really beautiful. Right? Like we all carry this. And are you a Virgo.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean: And we’re from New York.

Madi: Oh, okay. Okay, so we got some New Yorkers. So we keep it real New York. That’s why. That’s why my book, I’m like, I gotta keep this real. Okay. I gotta just make this, like, practical, because I get it. I’m a New Yorker, like my dad, you know, was a taxi driver, my great grandpa, steelworker. I got to keep things, like, a little level set for people, right? Like.

Alison : Yeah, Bronx, long Island.

Madi: Shut up. Okay. Yeah. So I’m, you know, Manhattan, Queens, Long Island, but had lots of family in the Bronx, so. All right, this is good. This is good. We’re, like, already, like, locked in. We’re on the same wavelength and seen.

Alison : Thank you for joining us, Maddy.

Madi: That’s all we need to know about that. Yeah.

Alison : We hope everyone got something out of that.

Jean:  I think it’s important to say if you would share a little bit about your journey. I know you’ve shared it with so many other people, but  i really feel that hearing what you experienced before you wrote this book really, uh, gives credence to why this is so important.

Madi: Um.

Jean: And sharing it with the world.

Madi: Absolutely. Um, thank you for that opportunity. I think, like, I think I do think stories help us, you know, connect and understand things so much more deeply in the world, but within ourselves. And I think a lot of people listening, if they’re drawn to your podcast, um, they have in common with them, is I was born with this, just knowing that there was like, something more. Yeah. What is that? I don’t know, but, like, you’re kind of looking around at certain things, and I was like, I just feel like connected to something bigger, right? Spirit source, God, the divine, whatever you want to call it, in that, um, you know, our human silly language we attach to things. And also that I was like, born for something like a mission. Like I wanted to help people, but nothing…. The usual routes were not it, right? I went through all the normal things, like should I go into social work? Should I be a volunteer? Should I go work in politics and everything? The universe was like, no, no. So it made me actually feel kind of lost, even though I always had this very clear sense of self, but like how it applied in the world, I didn’t really understand. And then, um, you know, the universe gives us a few moments. I would say that definitely it feels like everything is falling apart. You’re having these like, breakdown moments, but when you look back on them, you’re like, oh, actually, everything was coming together. That was my breakthrough moment. My first moment of that was I was ready to get married, walk down the aisle.

Alison : Yeah.

Madi: All signed, sealed, delivered. Everything done. And I just was like…. I always kind of knew it wasn’t really right, but I was just like, no, this is what you do? Get married. You’re 27. 28. Like, this person’s great. This that other thing. Um, and I just started getting this, like, huge…. Like, it almost felt a little bit like you’re going a little crazy because I’m like, wow, I’m having so many signs and symbols and interventions and dreams and my body shutting down. And is this telling me not to go through with this? But up to that point, I had really embodied the good girl archetype. Meaning, did not like confrontation, did not like letting people down. I didn’t even like if someone asked me, where do you want to go to eat? I don’t know, where do you where do you want to eat? Like what do what do you want to do with your life? I don’t know what everything in my life was for someone else. And it was my first moment that I just had to really, really own that this level of not choosing myself was like going to put me down a really dangerous path that this, like being a people pleaser, was turning into like a self-betrayal where I’m like, this is a really big decision, like who you marry. And, um, it was the scariest thing I’ve ever done because it was just on intuition. It was just on vibes. Nothing happened, nothing bad happened, but it was just like me finally realizing this cute little like college relationship that was kind of lukewarm. This isn’t like your this isn’t your big yes. And you have to learn how to distinguish. Right. Like the shoulds.

Alison : Yeah.

Madi: From like what you really wanted to do. And I just say this because, um, I found out later that it was during a very astrologically significant time in my life, in our late 20s. We go through this initiation called the Saturn Return. So years later, I was like, oh my gosh, I wish I knew that because I would have had a little bit more context versus thinking like, that’s it. Maddie’s gone off the deep end. Um, and what that forced me to do was essentially like, blow up everything that I knew in my life. Everything that was true, everything that had been laid, you know, laid out in front of me, essentially just blew it all up. And then so I was like, well, I have to rebuild. But now I made this really public stance that I’m not going to, like, have an inauthentic life. And I’m not going to say yes to things that aren’t true to me. So then I had to go back to square one and be like, what is true? Who am I? Who am I when I’m not just making myself into this little mold who I think people think I should be? Yeah. And that led me on a journey to coming back to astrology, energetics, metaphysics, studies like meditation, tarot card pulling. Because I was, like, desperate enough to try anything. Like I was like, you know, like I got a little bit, like, cynical of that stuff or skeptical of it.

Madi: Um, and then returning to it as an adult through my lifelines and especially astrology, because all those feelings I had as a young girl, like, I feel like I’m made for something bigger and I feel sort of like, connected in this way that’s hard to put into words. Astrology gave me my first roadmap to myself because in my birth chart is what I’m doing now right? Is sort of being this translator for the stars and the cosmos. But there wasn’t, um, you know, there wasn’t a guidance counselor out at my high school. So, um, so that was the first big moment that I was like, okay, like I’m locked in. I feel like, okay, a new direction, new tools, new language. And then that set me off on another, you know, many other adventures and misadventures. Um, but astrology has been something I’ve come back to over and over and over again. It has, like, saved my life. It has blessed my life. It’s helped me understand myself, other people around me, the context of sociological moments we’re in. Um, and so I am now on a mission to try and get it out to as many people as possible, but making it accessible, easy to integrate. A little fun, I I hope.

Alison : Yeah. You know what’s funny? It made me pull out a birth chart that I don’t understand and look up things. So you inspired me. And just to give our listener an idea, you’ve broken up your book into 12 archetypes that are meaningful to everyone. And it’s not really, um, it’s very accessible. And it starts with personals. Like why now? Why me?

Madi: Mhm.

Alison : Incorporating where you are. And then it kind of grows into sort of a worldview. And you describe that a little bit to our listeners.

Madi: Absolutely. Um so I love what you just held up is your birth chart and it’s a wheel. And so that’s the first thing is that I want people to understand maybe through this book, um, is that everyone’s birth chart is a circle. 360 degrees. No one is missing anything. We’re not born a fragment, right? We’re born whole in this whole expression of essentially, the 12 zodiac signs are a division, like we’re New Yorkers. So you imagine almost like a pizza pie in the sky, dividing the night sky into 12 slices. Those are the zodiac signs. So they represent like the wholeness. But we’re all born whole. I think we come in, you know, if we know a little bit of astrology. I’m a Virgo, I’m a Virgo, I’m this, I’m that. But then that’s a piece of it, right? We’re born with access to a mansion, like a mansion, and some of us are like walking into the mud room of the mansion and being like, why don’t….. And this isn’t that great? I’m like, yeah, like you’ve only just got in like one step, like there’s so much more. And, um, so I love to really help people understand that within them are all these 12. I call them archetypal energies because to me they exist way beyond like a person or a trait. But it’s these like gifts from the universe. And like every gift, sometimes you know, they can be a blessing, sometimes they can be a burden. It’s up to us to understand how to to wield it. But, um, in this expression, it’s like every single challenge we come up against, there’s a key in our chart to unlock it. Everything we want to do and create, everything, how we want to expand or evolve, um, it’s right there in our chart to help us unlock, oh, what’s the archetypal energy that I need to embrace or embody to open up to more abundance or more love or more trust? And  I’m a Virgo, so I love problem solving.

Madi: I love connecting dots. Once I realized that, like we had this, I was like, do more people know that? Like we carry all of this energy within us? It’s It just for a lot of us, it’s dormant. We’re not aware. And so my book, I like to think of it as a little bit of like a book and maybe a little bit of like a spell. Because even if you don’t understand every single thing happening in your chart just by reading it is this understanding of like, oh, I do have all of this within me. I felt that before or I know that feeling. This is how I can maybe work with it a little bit more mindfully. Um, and you know, I am a big believer of putting proof behind what I do because I was doing this for myself. But then I started working with clients and, you know, kind of friends and people on referral basis and then just kept the business, kept, you know, people, more people being referred to me. I didn’t have a website for like six years. I was just book, book, book, book, book taking people through this journey of their chart and really like going in and building this toolkit based on this. And I realized that every single one of us, whether we’re someone who works in Hollywood, someone who’s, you know, top of their game in sports, whether we’re a beautiful like mother or someone who’s initiated into motherhood or a teacher. I was like, we all come up against the same 12 universal blocks.

Jean: Mhm.

Madi: To living in our light, to living in self-trust. And those 12 blocks have a key to unlock in our chart. So it was so cool. I started seeking out clients and I’m like, no, I wanted to work with people with different ages, different backgrounds because I was like, is this really like work? And I was like, oh my God, it’s so cool. It really does. Um, so that is sort of like each of those zodiac signs that we can kind of like roll our eyes at or tease or see little like jokes like, oh, Virgos are this way, or Scorpios are that way. That’s fun, that’s silly. It’s fun. I found that too. But like, um, on a higher level. Yeah. I’m like, this is like, everything we need to know. Um. About what unlocks us when we feel stuck. Everything we need to know to feel really embodied and really here and present and everything we need to know to live in alignment.

Jean: And when you say alignment, are you so is that how you define the cosmic zone. And so what is the cosmic zone.

Madi: Yeah. So I mean really the cosmic zone in a really simple way. I’ll break it down a bit more to me is just where you are living in a state of your life where you feel really alive and things feel like you are flowing, you feel fulfilled, you feel there’s a certain level of freedom to what you’re doing and that you’re having fun. Like, I just want to reiterate to everyone, like we’re allowed to have fun. Like we’re serious things happening always in life. Those never go away, but we get to take ourselves a little less seriously and actually experience joy and whimsy and pleasure and delight at being a human. Like, it’s a quick ride. Like, let’s enjoy it, right? And so, um, and that actually creates more like resilience and, um, and, you know, regenerative energy for us to deal with the harder things. Um, but I like to think about living in the cosmic zone is three things knowing your authentic self. Because we can’t do anything without that. Because like that version of Maddy I was talking about up until 27, I had tastes of who I was authentically, but like, how are we going to live in our cosmic zone in a place of all those things? I just said fun, freedom, you know, flow state. If we’re like wearing shoes that don’t fit, like how, you know, we’re like walking around in shoes that are three sizes too small or big.

Madi: Like, we’re not we’re not having fun. We’re not in flow. We’re like clunky, we’re restricted. Um, so understanding your authentic self and really just giving yourself permission to be multidimensional. That’s my favorite kind of permission to give people is that like, you don’t have to just be scientific or just responsible or just smart or like, you know, I think especially as women, we’re like, wait, we can be smart and spiritual and strategic and sexy and wild and domestic and like, like, oh my God. Yeah. Like, we don’t have to be one thing. So understand your authentic self. And then embodiment is a big thing to the cosmic zone, which I guess the simplest way of saying it is, like all of us, we read so much. We all have the internet, Instagram now we have like these ChatGPT and AI models. So we’re like, there’s an abundance of information out there, right? Um, but like, can you really, like, ground it into your body? Can you Walk the walk. Can you also, like, be really present and like land in your body, which to me is, you know, where all of our power is. Um, and then alignment that comes from all of that is, I like to say, it’s like you’re surfing with the universal rhythms.

Madi: Before you understand all of this, maybe you’re caught in the riptide and we, you know, East Coast girlies. We know like that Riptide, you’re out at Jones Beach or Robert Moses or the Hamptons. We’re like, you don’t want to be going against that. Like, right? That’s where  life is really exhausting and dare I say, scary. But then all of a sudden it’s like, oh, like I feel an authentic self. I feel embodied, and I just kind of trust my yeses. And I trust my nose. And I know it’s all working out for me because I am, like, present to everything. I’m paying attention to signs from the universe. I’m understanding my astrological rhythms a little bit where I can say, oh, you know what I tell my clients? There are seasons of life to push forward and seasons of life to pull back. And when you understand that, it’s like, oh yeah, like I’m surfing. It’s almost like I’m playing with the universe and this co-creative state. Um, so it’s a long explanation. But if you were like, wow, that was a lot. I would say, just go back to those F’s. I said, it’s the flow, it’s the freedom, it’s the fun, it’s the fulfillment.

Alison : It’s not long. It’s great. Um, you talk a lot in your book about, um, like, intuition and following your gut. So how do you know the difference? Or how will I know the difference between intuition and fear? Dressed up as, um, sometimes I don’t know  that I know the difference sometimes. Do you know.

Madi: I know it’s very pesky fear….fear and anxiety are  like a little self-critic. I feel like they learned how to, like, overpower the intuitive, like, take over the the microphone, the audio.

Alison : But that is the intuition.

Madi: Yeah. And you’re like, is that my intuition is telling me to be… So if everyone’s,journey for themselves, I’m going to recommend two things, i’m a Virgo and i love to give homework. It’s in my book every chapter’s homework. So anyone listening,  I’m going to give you some homework. Um, so that’s embodiment is doing it for yourself, right. So the first thing I’ll say is a broad like thing to check in. What I’ve learned from years of doing this and years of getting people, especially women, to really trust and act on their intuition in some bold ways, like really like big life changes based on intuitive hits. The first thing I say is that your intuition is never mean to you. So if you have a voice in your head that’s telling you you’re too old or too this or too that, no one’s going to like you. You’re going to fail miserably. That’s not your intuition, your intuition. It comes from the same source, I believe, of like a higher power. Like it’s your intuition, your higher self, your higher power. They are operating on one channel and they do not speak to you in a way that is mean. Okay. Like that’s the first thing any, like, mean, nasty talk,

Madi: that’s not your intuition, right? Um, and the second thing is that your intuition is quiet. So we do have to…. That’s why I like meditation, stillness walks, journaling, putting the phone down. I’m speaking to myself something like, why is my intuition not speaking to me? I’m like, because I wake up and I’m like, the phone’s in my head like this, close to my brain, like millions of thoughts all day. So like, I’m like modern day meditation practice. Just like, don’t have your phone for an hour. I promise you, your intuition is going to come through loud and clear. But creating some space, um, for your intuition to get through to you. And then from there, like noticing your intuition is quiet, but it’s persistent. Like I feel like fear and things come up in a moment, like a knee jerk. And they’re loud and they’re like, it’s like a lake. They’re like splashing around in the lake, like someone jumping in. Whereas, like, your intuition is like ripples, like very steady. So it’s to like, quiet the mind a little bit. But there, there, right there, like like for me, this person’s not the person for you to marry. Like, I felt that for a long time the night I was proposed, to which everyone’s like, this is like your dream night.

Madi: I remember laying awake all night and I love sleep, I love sleep, I, I can always sleep. That night I laid awake all night staring at the ceiling. And so that was like my first hit. That like something like my intuition was like, okay. And then I just kept getting these ripple effects and these and these thoughts. And usually your intuition when you think of like following it, like, what if I did because my mind was terrified, right? I had we were moving across the country. My friend group was all my security, all my identity was wrapped up in this person. Plus, being a people pleaser, I’m like everyone I know just spent all this money and time and we have all this stuff set up like. But when I really thought, like, brought myself into my mind’s eye of following my intuition. I felt open like a flower. Like opening, like blooming. Like wow, that feels really light and free. So usually if you tune in and if you follow that, like, what if I did that? Usually energetically you’ll feel lighter or more alive.

Alison : Mhm.

Madi: Because that’s where your intuition is usually trying to guide you. But the homework I would say is doing something to build the mystical muscle before it’s a do or die moment. Like that was my, that was my do or die moment. I went, I went, I went all in. I was like, okay, I guess I’m gonna do this now and trust my intuition. Um, but I work with my clients. I’m like, there’s so many little ways you could track your dreams. You can just practice. Like if you get an intuitive hit for a friend, text them, call them like, I was just thinking of you, or I really needed to hear that. And you’re like, okay, mystical muscle. Like, I’m right. We work out in the gym. So that way we’re strong for like in real life moments, we’re like, okay, we’re working our flexibility, like our, you know, our mobility. And then when we fall on the curb, we’re like, oh, I got right back up. I’m so happy I worked on that muscle for so long. So it’s the same thing. And I think, um, pulling like Oracle cards, like buying an angel card or a tarot card, even, like, even if you don’t know what they mean, just pulling them once a day for like a month and seeing like, oh, wow…. When I pulled that card, it made me think of this person from work, I don’t know. And then maybe like later that night, you get an email from them and you’re like, okay, like I’m just you’re just starting to understand that there’s more happening in your mind than just like our, our overpowering thoughts. Um, so, you know, I would say everything I just said, you know, got to make space for it. Your intuition is never mean to you. And it usually is like quiet but persistent, and it leads you to somewhere that feels open and then finding some way to work with your intuition every day, like a muscle.

Alison : You know, I love that you said, um, uh, it’s quiet because there is sometimes an I’ll call Jean. Like, I’m nervous to do this thing. I’m nervous to do this. And Jean will just say, well, what if you didn’t do it? How would that feel? And it would feel lousy.

Madi: Yes.

Alison : You know what I mean? Like I think. Oh, yeah. Right. So you’re right. It is sort of like you feel this… Oh, yeah. No, I really guess I’m going to do that thing.

Madi: Yeah. Like the not doing it doesn’t feel good either. And I want to tell everyone like I sometimes, like you are scared. I think your intuition is telling you to do that is like the leaving the comfort zone for the cosmic zone. It’s not that it’s not scary. It’s not that. It’s not like fear isn’t there, but it’s like an exciting fear. Like it’s like, oh, could I breathe into this fear and actually realize that it’s a little bit anxiety, excitement for doing something that’s out of my comfort zone. Um, right. And, like, kind of sitting with that and not being afraid of that fear, instead being like, there was some from the book, The Big Leap, um, he talks about like the difference between fear and excitement is just our breath.

Alison : Oh.

Jean: Oh yeah.

Madi: Can I, like, breathe into this and let this feel like, oh yeah, like, this is exciting fear…. not like,  the fear like we’re going to die if we try something new. Like, oh my God…. You’re like, well, probably not…..

Jean: We wish our listeners could see your face.  hahaha

Jean: Oh my goodness. Okay, Madi, do you feel,  I feel you can use your book like an oracle deck.

Madi: Yes. Thank you 100%.

Jean: Okay, you can hold it right. And ask the universe to show you.

Madi: Okay. You two are very. You two are very plugged in. Okay- i’m sorry-  i’ve been talking about this book  non-stop for six months. And you two are picking up on some stuff that I haven’t even had a chance to talk about. No one knew. But when I wrote the book the whole time, I really just had my prayer over. The book was like, I’m a, I’m a girl. I’m a messy girl from Long Island. I don’t have the you think, who am I to write a book, right? I have a lot of experience and receipts and things that I’ve kind of gathered along the way that I think work for people. But at the end of the day, I can’t sit and write this book that I have it all figured out for anyone picking this up, but I just chose to write it like a prayer and be like, I just like, let things come through that I think someone might need to hear. And I want this to be a book that the confession- I don’t read a lot of books that are self-development, self-help books cover to cover. I pick them up on days where I’m like, what do I need to hear right now? Right. And it’s always slapped. And it’s like, I want to be that for someone, right? Like that kind of bibliomancy they call it. I want to be like, you’re going through a hard day, or you pick this up in an airport, Hudson News, and you just open to a page and you’re like, yeah, that’s exactly what I needed to hear. And that’s all we need sometimes, right. So exactly. So if you use this book of like as a way of testing your intuition, what I need to know today, what do I need to focus on or what am I not seeing about this scenario or myself right now? And you open up to a page like really practice trusting. Trusting what you read, trusting how you interpret that.

Jean: I love that you say that because I got up to about chapter five and it was beautiful. I felt like Every chapter was talking to me. I could relate to every.

Alison : Yeah. Me too.

Jean: And then I, I, uh, I was going to bed, and I picked up your book. I knew we were having our interview, and I turned and I just opened to around the the 12th chapter – Trusting God.  And it was exactly what I needed.

Madi: Mhm.

Jean: Yeah. It was beautiful.

Alison : Yeah.

Madi: Oh that makes me so happy.

Madi: Thank you I love that. That’s all I wanted to just have as a book that had its own sort of connection to, to people and words in there. And I um you know I this might if anyone’s like, not tuned into astrology, they can tune me out for a second if this is going to confuse them or they’re not into it at all. But, um, what’s cool about working with the book is there’s your personal astrology where you could just read it like, okay, I’m a Virgo sun. Maybe I’m a Gemini Moon. I want to really hone in on the back of the book has a little like explanation of what that unlocks. Like, okay, if you want more emotional fulfillment or you want better relationships, like go to these keys. Um, you can also read it. I recommend the book just by the season. Right. So we’re in Aquarius season right now, which is all about revolution and humanity and progress. And you know, we’re definitely feeling that. So you can read the 11th key and be like, what am I focusing on right now? All right. If the future is ours, like the future belongs to us, that’s really cool. Um, but then there’s this, like larger cycles of astrology, and this is where it’s a little confusing if you don’t know.

Madi: But, you know, I have a lot of stuff that I offer that helps break it down. But what you just said really struck me, because we are in this collective moment where we’re all meant to be walking a little bit in a more Pisces energy, like, which is being in that like really connection to God, connection to seeing God in each other, connection to You like? Oh, right. Like, what if we’re in a place of deep healing right now and we’re actually coming together? And can we just trust we can’t really see everything ahead? Maybe. But, like, can we lead with the heart? Right. Can we have more empathy? More compassion? Um, and so like, that’s just something that like, on a larger level, like we’re all being asked to connect with more. So I love that something in you nudged into that and it was like, like you’re stepping into the the stream into the current, right? The surfing, you’re like, oh, I needed to hear that. But that’s also probably, you know, part of your assignment right now to get into alignment is that which is just like, makes me just tickles me.

Alison : I thought it was really interesting in this book about your idea of harmony.

Madi: Mhm, mhm.

Alison : Because right now, like I think people believe that they are right.

Madi: Mhm.

Alison : No matter what side you’re talking about or who you’re talking about. I’m right. And it’s this very intense conviction. Mhm. It’s very binary black and white.

Madi: Mhm.

Alison : And um, I would love for you to talk a little bit because I think what you’re saying is so right. Like when I read that last chapter I was like, oh my gosh, this is exactly where we are. We need to figure out like you’re talking about like a new harmony. And that harmony is like harmony is not like, um, I forget how you say it. Do you remember how you said it? It’s so perfect like about that…. It’s not just, uh, it’s a new creation.

Madi: It’s a new creation, and it’s like, new, like, um, thank you for saying that. No, it’s so, like, can I think about it a lot? And it’s so funny. You write something and you’re like, I don’t sometimes I write, I don’t know where this is coming from. And then I see it like in a lived out moment. And I think that so many of us can acknowledge that, like the world we live in could be done so much better, right? Like across the board. I don’t care who you are. It’s like there’s a lot of room for improvement here. And I think that we think that we have to like, hold this, do this thing or hold this like, torch or be this, have everything all figured out. But like, no, we actually just have to bring like our unique note with the intention of creating something beautiful and new and like in a choir or in a chorus, like someone’s not expected to hold one note the whole time, right? Like someone comes forward with their part, they take a breath, someone else comes forward with their part. Or there are certain moments where like, does this go together? Like, actually it can go together. Like we can create this harmony. And there’s almost like a, like a, a new song that we’re weaving in our society and a civilization kind of as we know it. And I think that it’s just even going in with the intention of like, we can create harmony. So that was like the Libra key. This year I saw in New York at Central Park… You know, they had the strawberry fields.

Madi: So they had for John Lennon’s birthday, who was a Libra. They had everyone went and sang a song and their song, like everyone’s while they were singing and they were representing like, we each have a note to bring right in. Like, imagine to imagine a new future. And I was like, this is what I was writing about. I didn’t even realize it or think about it from that way, but I was listening to them like, how how like, um, it made me tear up. Yeah. All these people, and they weren’t professional singers, but they all brought a note and it made like the harmony and the resonance. It like, brought me into the heart space. I was like, really moved by it. And I was like, oh, we can create harmony like that. That was a cool, like lived experience of art experience, what I was trying to convey in people. And, you know, I just like to tell people because as an astrologer, people was like, what’s happening? What’s happening? And I’m like, all I have to say is that like that harmony, like focusing on that, we are not going back the way we came, like we are going to a whole new future right now and something no one on this planet has ever lived through. And it’s I keep calling it like the joyful reimagining. Like we get to reimagine right now, like how we want to feel and live and be in community with each other. Um, and we all have we all have a note to bring. Even if you think you don’t, you absolutely do.

Alison : Right. And I think too, you, you talk a lot about um curiosity.

Madi: Mhm. Yes.

Alison : We find that people when we because we do read a lot of spiritual books you know for these interviews and curiosity is such a key don’t you think, to living in love.

Madi: It is because it’s open. And at the end of the day, like love is about being open hearted, right? Right. So once we think we have, like, something locked in, we close our heart, right?

Alison : And I love, I love some of your book made me tear up actually because I thought some of it… I felt you were speaking right to me, which was kind of creepy because I didn’t know you. Um.

Madi: I love I love creepy people out in the best way possible.

Alison : I was like, wait, who is this? Get out of my head. And then some of it was just like, oh, there is…. It felt hopeful.

Madi: Yes. Yes.  Well, first of all, I love everything you’re saying, and I’m going to put a pin and come back to the curiosity thing. But if there’s one thing that I have a lot of, and that I would bet my bottom dollar on, it is hope. And it is that we are going into a much better reality for all of us. And I’m not just saying this again when I started studying astrology the first time for myself, I was like, this is really empowering. I got to know about me and my cycles and who I am and my purpose. But then I started studying. A few years later, a teacher gave me a book about like the history of the world, The Astrological lens, and I was I love history and I’m up at night like 3 a.m. my now husband is like, what are you doing? I’m like, honey, like, we’re going into some crazy astrology. This was like 2017. He’s like, what do you mean? I’m like, I’m like 2020. My teacher was like, 2020. March 2020, we’re going to go through a big reset. We’re going to start imploding society and rebuilding it. And like 2025, 2026. And I was kind of like, yeah, because, you know, sometimes, like I love the spiritual community, but sometimes we’re a little dramatic, right? Like we’re on Instagram like the biggest full moon of your life. You’re going through a portal. And I’m like, really? Like every full moon, are we? Again, my New Yorkers like, are we though? And then so I’m like paying attention and I’m interested and I’m reading but I’m a little bit like what’s going to stop the world.

Madi: Like we live in a very fast paced world. Nothing happens. We can barely hold on to something for like a new cycle more than a day at a headline, right? And then March 2020 happened and I literally, I literally called my teacher. I was like, wait, hold on. Everything you told me, tell me again now because I need to dial in. And he told me, and I’ve been studying it very, um, avidly. Is that like, we’re just going into a really a time where we’re, like, unearthing so much, but, like, there’s so much potentiality for, like, a shift, like we’ve never seen and especially for heart centered, compassionate, empathetic, like spiritually attuned people to really be like the leaders in a way that’s almost hard to comprehend, but like they will because they’re being uplifted, because like, the universe kind of knows like that’s who we need to bring us out of this. Um, and I’ve seen it through, um, astrology is like data science. Like, you just see, like, oh, well, every time this happens, these are these, you know, historical moments that happen. And so we’re in a few different cycles, and each and every one of them points to a beautiful, like reclaiming a beautiful, like redistribution of power, a beautiful redistribution of who’s the leader of healing. So but like any healing, it’s like, it’s not it’s not exactly neat and tidy when you’re going through it.

Alison : Right?

Jean: Yeah. It’s like, you know, they liken it to giving birth. It’s not a clean …

Madi: It’s not like the movies –  you’re not like. And I’m pregnant and I leave the room and I’m just like perfect hair and makeup and sunny lighting in there.  You’re like, no, that is raw. .

Alison : There’s Screaming.

Madi: There is primal scream. There’s just things flying everywhere. I threw up multiple times during my labors. Like my husband’s like I never saw that side of you. And I’m like, yeah, like I’m it’s it’s very, you know, it’s tomb womb energy. Right. It’s a death thing. It’s a birthing. Um, and I just think about, like, every day I’m like. I just think it’s so cool that, like, my lineage, like, my bloodline was like, yep, you can handle this moment. So I’m like, cool. Like, I guess I’m here for a reason. Um, and it’s what gets me really hyped up on days where sometimes, you know, it can be a lot like all the news. You’re like, it can get you a little down. But I just like to tell people you were born right, right now on purpose, with purpose. And it’s not by accident.

Alison : That’s great. On purpose. With purpose.

Jean: Very beautiful.

Alison : And lately I’ve been saying to my husband. And he said to me today, where did you get this? Out of your comfort zone? And I’m like, right here, mister. He’s laughing because I’m like, I think I’m going to take up Pilates. Yes. Out of my comfort zone. I walked out of the room. He’s just like, where is Alison?

Madi: I am obsessed with that, I love it. God bless all of our…. just like husbands who are just… Like what? Like. Okay. And also like what? But, like. Yay! But like what?

Alison : That’s exactly right. Oh my God. Is there is there a truth in the cosmic zone that you think people will resist the most?

Madi: Yeah. Um hmm. Okay. I usually my go to answer is I think about this a lot. Like, my biggest one is usually, um, the the Aries key. Like the first one that starts off the book is like, why me? Like, because I think we all think that, like, we read spiritual things or we see truths out there or even right now, like back to the collective. It’s like we all have to be a part of it. Like no one’s coming to save us. We all have. We have a very Aries energy happening in our society, but I think we all kind of look at ourselves in the mirror and be like, not me. Like, surely she’s not talking about me because, like, we just know ourselves too much. I’m like, no, like I can’t even like, you know, make eggs without burning them, and I’m gonna save the planet. Yeah, right. Or, like, I had to go through the whole journey of, um, my of getting out of my comfort zone to my cosmic zone. You don’t do it one time, right? Like I kind of do live in my cosmic zone. I try to stay there, but part of it is that you keep putting yourself out for new things. So you have to go and find that edge. And for me, writing this book. Yeah, I was like, why me? Like I am? I don’t have a bunch of fancy letters after my name.

Madi: I’m not like a celebrity guru on like, whoever show. I’m just like, again, I’m just a girl from Long Island who talks a lot. And I think I got something to say, but I don’t really know. And so I’m writing the book and all of a sudden I’m like, and I had gotten my book deal and then I gave birth like, so I’m also in this like postpartum energy where you’re just like, I haven’t showered, I haven’t talked to an adult. Like, I’m in, like deep in, like breastfeeding, like Miss Rachel, like like no sleep. So I’m like, really like, who am I to write this? And I had to be like, why not you? Like, you have things, you have help people. You’ve helped yourself like girl like get back in, like why someone’s got to do this. Why not? You like. And I had to literally walk myself through every single one of those keys in the process of writing the book and promoting the book, because. But it was good. That’s how I know I’m like living, you know? Yeah, a life where I’m alive. But I find that one people are like, even if they’re like, yeah, subconsciously they’re like, no, not me.

Jean: Mhm.

Alison : That’s so interesting.

Madi: Yeah.

Alison : It’s I thought that would be an embraced one. That’s so interesting.

Madi: Maybe it’s the people who I like tend to work with. Like, they’re kind of, like, all recovering good girls in some way.

Alison : Huh?

Madi: So they’re like, no, like, I don’t know. But part of what I like to do with my work and my community and my clients is help people tap into, like, their bad, bad B energy. That’s like bad, bad, bad bitch with a good heart because it’s like.

Alison : Yeah.

Madi: You kind of need both. Like, you need to be really good hearted, but you also need to take up space and have confidence and be okay if it’s not everyone signing off on every decision. Um, I think the other key right now is like the key eight, um, I will not be shamed is kind of what’s like a lot of that is what’s happening in our society right now is like, we’re unearthing a lot of things that feel really heavy and dark, and we’ve been taught to, like, not talk about them or look at them. And actually, by just facing it head on, especially in the spiritual world, people are like, no, let’s just keep it light. Keep it high vibrational. Let’s stay focused on the positive. But like you actually do have to go into the places and look at the things that seem heavier because they just take away so much of your power by not acknowledging them. Right. So I’m always like, yeah.

Jean: It’s I just want to touch on that chapter. I think the way you…oh I hear someone…

Alison : oh Wait, who’s that?

Madi: I know, I’m sorry it’s just my little two year old decided to join us. So little Scorpio. Speaking of key eight, he’s like, I’m a Scorpio. I’m here.

Alison : He can totally be there. We love that. Yeah.

Madi: Yeah. Hi. Um, yeah. So sorry about.

Alison :  I love I love it. No, no, sorry. We love that stuff.

Madi:  you know mom life…. We’re like, oh, okay.

Jean:  You really articulated the shadow side so beautifully in your book and the importance to take a look at that.

Madi: Um, yeah.

Jean: and that it’s okay. And I love Free to Be me. It was so such a great chapter.  I mean, they all are, they.

Alison : they are all are really good.

Madi: Yeah, that’s one of my priorities for everyone reading the book. If they could just touch upon something. Right. We carry around a lot of things that feel really heavy because we’re not like turning to them and we turn to them. Usually those are the things that actually, like create the most gold in our lives if we just are able to, to sit with it. Um, and especially for women, it’s like it’s the biggest thing. I see people transform from being like this, like victim kind of feeling to being this, like victorious, full present, really powerful version of themselves. Um, so yeah.

Alison : Sometimes you have to walk through the fire.

Madi: You really have to. You really have to. And that’s what’s so cool about telling stories is because when you’re in it, every time you’re like, I don’t want to do this right.

Madi: I just want to watch my show on Netflix and have a snack. But then you go, but then you go through these moments of, like, looking at the things that you’re so scared of, you don’t want to look at or and you realize you’re like, oh, oh my God. Like, thank God I went through that, right. Because now I know, I know what I’m working with. I feel transformed, I feel more clear. And that is again, the tomb in the womb. What we’re going through right now as a collective.

Alison : Exactly. So we’ll let you go play with your son. We just have two really quick questions.

Madi: Yes.

Alison : What do you think inside wink means?

Madi: I first of all love this. And I saw it on the prompt to ask. I thought about it. To me, the inside wink feels like this quiet inner,  yes, like cheeky little wink from your higher self or the universe. Because I literally feel that feeling like I’m getting a wink from the universe… Like you know how you guys are all random? And then these two beautiful ladies repeated back everything you wanted to put in the book. You’re doing it, girl. Like you followed your intuition. You did it wink wink nudge nudge wink. Isn’t that so cute? And again, the universe, God like, has a cheeky sense of humor and wants us to feel fun. So that’s what it is to me.

Alison : And did you want to do the best one?

Jean: Oh, the best one is do you like cake, pie or ice cream or which one you prefer?

Madi: So I think I have to go with pie and I’m going to specify like a pudding pie or a pudding pie. Like a graham cracker crust and give me like a chocolate pudding cookie crumble on top. Goodbye, everyone. Leave me alone. Like I’m just gonna really have my way with that. Um, but such a good question.

Alison : We we always. It’s so fascinating what people say because. They they we we talk to these people like that are neuroscientists or something, and they’re like, oh. This question was hard. Pie, cake or ice cream  you know, it’s just like, okay, thank you so much. You’re so much fun.

Madi: Oh, you are both a dream.

Jean: You’re so Lovely. We’re so again, so thankful for your beautiful book, for your presence on our in our life and and on our show. So all the best to you.

Alison : Yes.

Alison : Yeah.

Madi: Thank you. It’s really fun. Thank you.

Alison : Have a great night.

Madi: Oh, that was so fun. Thank you. Sorry. He, like, came in, but it was pretty good. 45 minutes I was like okay. It was perfect timing. Um, but let me know if you need anything follow up wise. Let me know if you’re in New York, you want to hang up, but you two are like your dream. I talked to so many people, I’m sure as you do and like, especially the past few months. But you two really, like, lit something up in me. Thank you.

Jean:  Right back at you. You did it for us, too.

Alison : Good night.

Madi: Right. Have a great night. Bye.

Alison : Wow. I felt like like like she was a kindred spirit.

Jean: 100%.

Alison : Right? Yeah.  And I really think that this book, um, is a toolbox and even just some of the things she said, I felt like were little nuggets today just to live by.

Jean: Yeah. She is so wise and so funny. And and her offering is this book that she’s offering as her like legacy of love in a way…. Um, it’s it really can touch every single person.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean: And and as you and I were sharing before, you know, you can also glean into someone else’s sign and figure out, oh, you know what? They’re they’re moving through that so I can be a little more compassionate with that person. Um, so it’s it’s she was wonderful. This book is wonderful.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean: And, uh. You’re wonderful.

Alison : Yeah. No matter what your sign is, we’re with you. Just got you got you got some moon rising somewhere, and we’re loving it. Well, thank you so much for listening.

Jean: Okay. Have a great day.

Alison : Oh, we said at the same time.

Jean: Ding!

Alison : Okay.

Jean : Good afternoon.

Alison : Good. Good afternoon, Ms. Trebek. How are you?

Jean : I’m well. How are you doing?

Alison : I’m pretty good, you know. I’m going out tonight, um, for dinner with some friends.

Jean : Yes.

Alison : Which I love, to an Italian… I believe it’s a vegan restaurant because one of my friends is vegan, and I love seeing people. And I love seeing these people. Alan and Kathy.

Jean : Wonderful.

Alison : They are such good people. You know, when, like, you just want to hug people.

Jean : Yeah,

Alison : That’s the energy that..

Jean : You’re like that Allison..

Alison : Am I?

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : That’s the energy that they have.

Jean : Well , You’re in good company.

Alison : Yeah,

Jean : They’re in good company.

Alison : We’re all in good company.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : Do you want to come?

Jean : No.

Alison : Yea, You have Matthew.

Jean : Yeah, but you have a great time.

Alison : Thank you.

Jean : So speaking about good company.

Alison : Yes.

Jean : We get to interview Paola.

Alison : Diflorio and Peter Rader, and they are filmmakers that work together, work separately, and they’ve done some incredible documentaries. Either they’ve directed them or produced them or both.

Jean : Yeah.  so they’re a married couple team that, uh, I think their partnership is exquisite.

Alison : Me too. They compliment each other so well.

Jean : Absolutely.

Alison : And their movies are great. So we had the privilege of watching three of them, “Awake – The LIfe of Paramahansa Yogananda”.

Jean : Right. “Infinite potential” –  That’s about the life of a quantum physicist, David Bohm”

Alison : Oh, I love that one, and then their latest documentary, My Father the Healer”, which is an incredible journey that you take with this, with this healer, his son and these filmmakers.

Jean : Right

Alison : It’s really. I can’t wait to talk to them.

Jean : Yeah. I mean, the work that they are putting out is really beautiful. And, you know, it’s it’s it is about an inner transformation, And not only, uh, I think what they really drive home is that there is more to life than what we just see with our eyes and ears. There is another realm that even quantum science is picking up on and acknowledging. So, um, it’s going to be great. That was a great intro. Here we go,

Alison : Here we go. All right, hang on everyone.

Jean : Hi, Peter.

Alison : Hi, Peter.

Peter: Hello. Paola is joining. Here she is.

Paola: Hi.

Alison : Hi. how are you? I’m Alison.

Paola: Yes.

Jean : And I’m Jean.

Alison : And that’s Jean.

Alison : Thank you so much for doing this. We have been watching your films, and, boy, they… When you watch them, you feel better when you’re done.

Paola: Really? That’s great. Yeah. They’re excellent. They’re excellent. So thank you very, very much. You know, when, um.

Paola: Thank you very, very much for having us. Yeah.

Peter: It’s really an honor.

Alison : I’m Excited because this is our first, this is our second time, I think, talking to people in the film business.  Because we talked to Bill, we talked to Paul Raci. Right.

Jean : Right, right, and I just have to say on a personal note that, um, your movies really, um, they’re the type of documentary, the movies that you make that really touch, touch me at a deep level. And I know I’m not alone at that. And I also want to share that I, um, screened the movie the Awake at a church and everyone was over the moon about it. So, um, I feel like I know you through your movies already, and it’s a real treat to have you with us today.

Paola: That is the best compliment, actually. Thank you so much for saying that. And what church was it?

Jean : It was the North Hollywood Church of Religious Science.

Paola: Okay.

Jean : That’s Science of Mind.

Paola: Yes, I know that. That’s that’s, uh.

Peter: Jean,  was that in in our during our original release like around 2015 or more recently?

Jean : I think was. Uh, because it came with like a like a press kit.

Peter: Yeah. Like a that was part of our campaign was to do community outreach to churches and… Yeah. Yeah.

Jean :  so that’s how I found out about you.

Paola: That’s Amazing.

Jean :  So and here we are getting the opportunity to speak with you about all these great films in your lives as filmmakers.

Alison : And, um, we just when I talk to people that were going to meet you, they’re like, oh, I love, Awake. Everybody’s seen that film.

Paola: Your community is the community, for sure.

Alison : Yeah,

Peter: Our people.

Jean : Your speaking our language. I mean, that’s like preaching to the choir.

Paola: Fantastic.

Alison : When you have these films that have such an impact and discussions about spirituality, how did you settle on those themes? Because it seems like thematically that’s what you keep exploring. How did that….  What happened to you guys that you thought, hey, let’s do this?

Paola: That’s such a great question. You know, um, I think initially, um, I was more interested in like the my very first film was really about finding voice. And I think that not just NADJA SALERNO-SONNENBERG was a world renowned violinist and she no longer is a soloist, but, you know, she’s one of the most extraordinary soloist soloists. Uh, on violin in the world. And, um, I knew her growing up, and I just, uh, I was astounded just listening to her play. Her mother was my piano teacher, and I would sit and do piano lessons, but I couldn’t concentrate because she was practicing violin down the down the hallway. And I think that that expression that need to express-  courage, you know, the courage to find what is, where your seat is, who you are, and, um, and really be comfortable in that and then really express that is, I think, the theme of transformation. And I think looking back, because I think at the time I don’t think I was aware of it, but I believe that all the stories that I’m really attracted to are about human potential and transformation. And that is a spiritual journey. And so not knowing it led me to the next thing and the next thing. And, you know, um, Peter and I actually co-facilitate a, um, a creativity and spirituality lab at Esalen. And, you know, one of the things that it really is about is is coming into alignment, right? It’s coming into alignment. And I look back and I really think, um, sometimes ideas find us, rather than us find the idea. And that certainly was the case with, Awake. So after making a social impact film, um, and more than one, it sort of led me to spiritual impact. And that was very new for me. It was for me that was an awakening coming into spirituality. Spiritual impact and what our purpose here on life really is through that lens. Um, so now it’s I think once you go through that portal, it’s very difficult not to see things that way anymore.

Jean : Yeah. I couldn’t agree more. Yes. That, um, you know, when you .. For me, all so many of your films really marry the the spiritual and the physical and coming into alignment with that, it reminds me of the word human, Hu, meaning God, man, man. And you even touch upon that with with, Infinite Potential.

Peter: Yeah. That’s a movie. Um, we produced and distributed. We were consulting producers and we did the final edit, and then we brought it to market. So it’s not Paola’s film as a director, though, she was involved in the in the sort of re-editing of it because we were given a very long cut. Um, but, you know, um, people talk a lot about social activism and, you know, needing to do something and, you know, have impact, social impact, social activism. Well, the thing that we’re now sort of realizing is that there’s this incredible power in spiritual activism and, and that begins with us, like doing our work, you know, our own healing because, you know, in a Buddhist prayer, like in a practice, you always begin with yourself. May I be happy, may I be peaceful, may I be filled with loving kindness and compassion. May I be free from suffering. And then you extend it out to the rest of the world. And that sort of vibration goes out and out and out all the way out. But it does need to begin with us. And it’s a very, very powerful practice. So we sort of pivoted from this, like completely externally faced. You know, I used to be a Hollywood screenwriter, you know, and now, you know I’m Paula’s partner in the company. She founded, Counterpoint Films. And, uh, you know, we’re doing, for instance, mentoring other filmmakers, inventors, entrepreneurs, you know, all creators in that lab. She mentioned, by the way, it’s called source to screen from source to screen.

Alison : Yeah, I love that. Put your own oxygen mask on first, right?

Peter: Yeah. Yeah. On the airplane. Yeah.

Alison : It kind of makes sense. How do you like you know, I really loved Waterworld.

Peter: Thank you.

Alison : I loved it. And, um, how do you know whether or not a subject should be a narrative or a documentary?

Peter: That’s excellent question. Um, so we when we mentor filmmakers, so when we do this lab at Esalen, we usually have about 25 people. And the first question we ask is, what is it? What does it want to be? The idea needs to tell you what it wants to be. It’s a lot of people say, I want to make a film. Are you sure? Are you sure it’s not a blog? Are you sure it’s not a series of essays? Like, how do you want to tackle that subject? What’s the most articulate and effective way of transmitting it? And basically to your receivers, to draw in your audience. And, you know, the the material needs to tell you what it wants to. Obviously, Waterworld needed to be Buster and other movies want to be other things.

Alison : Okay. That’s interesting.

Jean : Okay, so I’m curious how each,  what’s your individual creative expression that you each bring to the to making a film?

Alison : Mm.

Paola: Well, you know, we actually, um, we had just the, the pure joy of, of making my first film together. Um, Peter, uh, shot it and, um, we had just met, and it was super exciting. Um, and it was, uh, for me, it was really a beautiful mentorship. Uh, Peter really supported, I think he saw something in me and really supported the creative flow. And for me to jump in and take a chance at directing my first film and, you know, um, and that partnership was just that was founded right there with the making of that first film. But he was still writing, you know, Hollywood screenplays and, um, and we don’t always work together. So he’s, you know, writing a script right now, and, and I’m directing a documentary film. And so sometimes we do our, our own separate things, sometimes we come together. But what we really come together on is the messaging… Right now, that messaging, whether whatever form it takes, if it takes the form of, you know, a a narrative or a documentary or, um, a book in Peter’s case, um, that’s just going to dictate what it needs to be. And we support each other in everything that we do. So, you know, if he writes a book, I’m reading every chapter or he’s reading it out loud to me, um, and he sees every cut of, you know, everything that I’m doing. And we just really just help each other through. And then sometimes we’re professionally and more, um, let’s say, formally collaborating.

Alison : You know, I think part of the beauty of the human experience is, um, the flawed aspects of our personality and our ego. I actually think that that’s, um, kind of why we’re here to learn. And what’s interesting is in all your films, there are these people that are like these huge, uh, you know, Yogananda and yet he had trials and tribulations. What do you guys make of that? Like, like and how does that affect your own life?

Peter: So, you know, we both want to answer this, i know, but I’m going to start, um, you know, Paola and I met literally 30 years ago. Water World was being released in July of, of, of 1995. And we met 2 or 3 weeks earlier. And in our very first conversation, within minutes, we were talking about archetypes and story. Um, we we that’s our passion. Our passion is is storytelling. And, you know, we’re both writers and we’re both really passionate about, passionate about exactly what you said, Alison, which is the human experience and particularly the aspect that you’re talking about, which is essentially the fall from grace we will all fall. That’s part of the human experience. We will fall many times, and we actually teach this as a module in, source to screen is- what’s the fall? And how does the fall inform your character? Sometimes the fall is a secret and it happens, you know, before, you know, like in Chinatown. The fall from grace happens off screen and way, way in the past, and no one’s going to talk about it. But in Yogananda’s case, this is something that Paola literally fought for in the storytelling. We were working hand in hand with the organization because they controlled the archives. And, you know, we had sort of some checks and balances in terms of the story. We kept saying we need to humanize the guru, and we say that to anyone who’s making a, you know, a movie about a guru is where did he fall? Where did he fail? Where did he cry? What was the betrayal? You know, that’s the second act of that movie. And it really humanized him. And, you know, it was a shock to the devotees. They knew nothing of that part of the story. They’d only read the autobiography, which is all exalted, you know. I mean, there’s some trials in there, but it’s still it’s exuberant, it’s young. But he came to America and boy, he faced racism and injustice and betrayal and all these very human things. That’s what we think makes stories interesting.

Paola: Yeah, I would say that the the human journey, you know, just being human. Um, there’s a reason why, uh, in any creative endeavor, they call it the hero’s journey.

Alison : Yeah.

Paola: Right. It is a hero’s journey just to be alive and to walk through this earth and to really understand our purpose and to navigate all the, uh, all the pitfalls, all the challenges, the the beautiful glory of it all. It’s it’s a journey. It is a journey. And I think that, um, you know, now, what’s so great about getting older is that you start to look at that journey with a wider view and you realize, gosh, you know, we always think that it’s just us in the beginning, right? We think we’re alone going through these trials and tribulations, um, and that we’re the only ones being tested. And, you know, then there’s sort of like a wake up that happens. You wake up to something and it could be something really painful that happens, that wakes you up. Or it could just be, um, like a malaise that comes over you or some sort of thing where you realize that, hey, um, these values that I’m living with, where do they come from? Are they really from innately within me, or are they from some outside force that is telling me what to love, what to be, how, how to be? And I think that that wake up for me is really interesting. And I find that in every story is like, where do we find ourselves coming back home to ourselves?

Alison : Yeah.

Paola: And I would imagine, Jean, that as a healer, you’re always bringing people back to themselves. I don’t know if you would think of it that way, but for me, that is that is a healing journey.

Jean : Oh, I couldn’t agree more. I do think it’s all about bringing yourself back to the heart. Your mind or my mind is is can be very analytical and and I can actually feel it when I’m living too much in my mind, I get tired, you know, I just I just don’t feel right. And I think that is healing is is just integrating back to the heart, putting, you know, coming back to a, you know, a more state of presence. And, um, but and I think that’s what your movies do, you know.

Alison : You know, like, like in these movies there is people like these, these, these people that have devoted their lives. I felt trying to escape their humanness also in a way which I think is so Interesting. Like in, My Father the Healer…. Oh my gosh, that movie is so intense to me because you got that son in there, right? And then you see this man like with all, and then it it leaves him and… Right, like he his whole life changes and the people aren’t there. And the devotional like, what do you think? What did you think about that? Like, I just thought that was wild, that he was kind of, um, all those people focusing on him and then not having that…. That’s a wild experience for a human being.

Peter: You’re you’re talking about the fundamental forces, right? There’s that desire to bypass, you know, there’s the God complex like, my God, you know, this guy you’re talking about, My Father, the Healer, or the latest movie that we’re we produced and are You know, distributing now and just actually won its 10th festival award last weekend.

Alison : That’s fantastic.

Peter: And the hero there is this, it’s a docudrama, so it’s documentary with fictional, you know, recreations in there. Um, is is a gentleman with extraordinary abilities from China who essentially gets named in this book as a prophet in an ancient text. He’s in there. He thinks he’s the prophet. And my God, does that just blow up his head?

Alison : Yeah.

Peter: And he does what we humans do, which is hubris. You know, it just inflates this ego. And you think it’s spiritual, but it’s my God, it’s the opposite. And then he has this humbling and, you know, an incredibly heroic journey for a Confucian master who’s supposed to have it all together and know all the answers, and especially with respect to his son, he’s supposed to be this great masculine figure. And, you know, by the end of the movie, he’s, like, weeping and admitting that, you know, he it he went crazy. You know, it’s such an incredible journey. We love Master Li so much.

Paola: But I think that the I think that journey also is one where, um, you know, the mission wasn’t fully accomplished, right? It was it was helping and healing other people and then forgetting that he had to heal himself. Right. And I think it’s our nature to avoid suffering. Right? It’s our nature to kind of want to suppress or, you know, um, let just avoid avoidant behaviors, uh, anything. Look at all of the, the ways in which, um, you know, the outer world is seducing us into suppressing and, uh, and making making it harder for us to get in touch with what is in the way, what is really in the way of us getting into that alignment. Right? So for me, the stories, all the stories really are telling that same story, which is coming back to yourself, coming back to what is truly who am I, right? Who am I? Is that question? And there is, i think we’re all born with a unique nervous system, right? And so that nervous system is really that’s our guide, our internal guidance system. And if we don’t listen to it, eventually it gets us into trouble. And that’s what happened to to to Master. Lee. He’s an extraordinary, you know, um, super spiritual human, but was definitely pushing something down that, uh, that was a horrible pain regarding his, um, growing up in Maoist China. And it just that gave him running away from that is what gave him, I think, the opportunity to, um, explore his spiritual gifts. If he hadn’t had that, he may have never explored his spiritual gifts. They came… That’s the thing, there’s always two sides to that coin. Yeah, but if we’re not willing to look at it and we’re suppressing it, it will come back. It will come back, right?

Alison : Yeah. Yeah.

Jean : Oh, that’s for sure. It’s scary.

Alison : I know.

Jean : I mean, that that’s the tantalizing thing with when you start, uh, being introduced to spirituality, you can easily fall into that spiritual bypassing where you’re not really looking at these core wounds that that we come here to embrace. Um, I think a lot of people including, you know, was was always used to pushing it away. Yeah. And, um, you know, and then it’s it’s coming full circle. And, uh, I did love My Father, My Healer, and, um, I’m curious, was is there a film that you guys made that you felt, oh, my gosh, I my consciousness has really been shifted here.

Alison : Mhm.

Jean : Or was it a little bit of all of them… Yeah. Because I can remember reading a book and I would think wow I, I am being leveled up.

Paola: Yeah yeah yeah . I mean for, for me definitely, Awake. You know I think every, every single one, you know, every single one because I think that, that, you know, Speaking in Strings was, was um, you know, story of, of basically coming into oneself with her voice. And so it, it was my creative voice was found with that film, um, and then Political Awakening with, with, um, home of the brave, but, wow, i was not prepared for Yogananda. You know, like, that was really quite, quite the journey to come into, um, that film and to travel to India to learn about yoga on such a profound and precise level. Um, it really inspired me, I think, to go into the texts and to really, um, it was a it was an unfolding and unfolding that was never going to end. I think I realized that’s never going to end for me. Like it’s just a constant, such a deep well. But that was traveling to India and to the Himalayas into, um, the cave of the Param Param, guru of Yogananda, uh, Babaji and kind of seeing, um, and experiencing something that at that time I didn’t really understand. So I couldn’t certainly understand the idea of a timeless saint.

Alison : Yeah.

Paola: Um, I grew up with a Catholic father and a mother who was, uh, you know, a biologist and and then a therapist and and she was an atheist. So I kind of had a little bit of both, you know, and I really had a difficult time wrapping my brain around such a concept. Right. And I think, um, I remember we were filming in this cave, which we just recently visited on our recent trip to India. And I came down, we traveled ten hours down to Delhi, and something happened inside my body that was quite, uh, unusual. And it was just something that was vibrating inside my body. I didn’t know what it was. And I look back in time and realize that that was the beginning of something that was just cracking me open, you know, and realizing that I had a lot to learn and that I was stepping into a much more expansive world that, um, was going to take me on quite a life journey.

Alison : Fantastic.

Peter: And that was just production. And then, you know, was then sitting at the editing on the timelines. You know, we all contributed to the editing of this film. And Paula would spend, you know, days and days and hours just seeing Yogananda’s footage and his face. And every time he was photographed or, you know, filmed, you know, he had George Eastman, the founder of Kodak, was one of his disciples. So he was given a movie camera and equipment. So they, you know, there’s some really powerful archival footage. He would always make direct eye contact with the lens. You know, we thought at first. God, that’s so goofy. It’s so self-conscious. What is he doing? My God, we can’t use this. But then we realize that he’s actually transmitting through the barrel of that lens. He’s transmitting. You know, the Shakti, the darshan, the energy of a guru, you know, so that Paula is like getting this, you know, day in, day out. And it’s like, you know, you’re getting a Yogananda sound bath there.

Paola: I think I think you have to be in a place where you’re ready and receptive to those things, because otherwise, you know, it doesn’t happen, you know?

Jean : Sure.

Alison : Exactly. You come out of editing and your hair’s like, whoa! Yeah. Enlightened. I love that. Um. Do you what, what is your, if you don’t mind me asking your guys practice now? Like, are you have have you shifted to more Buddhism? You and I had very similar upbringings. I had an Italian family, and then my father was agnostic. And, you know, I went to church alone with another family. But then when I stopped eating meat, my grandmother took me to the priest because I had to have, you know, the whole thing. So, like, where are you now? Where are you leaning now in terms of your own growth and spirituality?

Paola: Yeah. I mean, I, um, look, I, I wasn’t the same after making Awake. You know, um, that that really I had a meditative practice before that. And I’d been practicing yoga in my 20s since my 20s. Um, and I think Peter and I, when we met, we were more on the Buddhist path. So I didn’t really understand devotional, um, practices. So, uh, but after, you know, in the years of making that movie, because it was years, um, I –something switched, There was like a light switch that went on and it was, uh, I practiced I learned Kriya Yoga because I didn’t think I could make the film… I mean, I definitely had, let me put it this way…. I could not have, I could not have had that switch happen had I not taken that journey to India. That’s really where it started for me. Then in the editing. But I knew after the trip to India something profound had happened for me and combined with the research that I had done, I really was interested in getting initiated into the area.  When I was initiated into Kriya Yoga, I didn’t realize that from there it would just be this never ending depth of information and growth that would that would happen spiritually.

Paola: So I’m very committed to the Kriya. Yeah, that’s definitely my path. Um, and I would say that also understanding that trauma, um, which I’ve definitely lived with childhood trauma, you know, and various it’s complex, but it’s, it’s that we have this ability, and I would love to talk to you Jean about this because it’s it’s for me… We have this ability and innate ability in the yoga tradition to get in touch with, to really in a very detailed way. Um, make contact with the energy points that are within the body and the chakras. And if we work with what we have within us, right through practices, through pranayama, through, um, meditative practices. And actually, um, we are working with the energy points and we can actually work with that energy in a transformational way and work with deep, deep traumas. So that is, um, I’m learning some new techniques in healing that are really, uh, working in this way through pranayama, through breath, through kriyas, and helping to release deep seated, um, trauma. Yeah.

Jean : That’s I mean, that’s so great to hear that your your heart is in alignment with that, with that mode, with that Kriya yoga mode of healing. And the great thing I…. And you can tell me what you think, but there are so many ways we all have a unique and beautiful path to us just tapping into that part of us that is beyond the story. So it’s honoring the story and sharing the story and knowing that we’re not the story. And all the while, you know, we have this beautiful body and many religions and, you know, kind of push aside the body, and yet here we are with these beautiful houses that hold our consciousness and that hold the trauma. If we don’t, I don’t want to say honor it, but just recognize it, recognize it, not judge it, kind of pull back from a victim, you know, state of mentality around it. And then I just think it’s it becomes God’s. It’s all up to to spirit, you know, really letting bringing it to spirit and letting spirit uh, re restructure it.

Alison : Yeah.

Paola: Yeah.

Jean : In a way that’s, that’s no longer you might still remember and have triggers. And I don’t think it’s always about not having a trigger, but when you have the trigger, you, you just become very aware. Oh that’s, that’s, uh, that fear, you know, and going, I can stop and pause and and not react or have it control me anymore.

Peter: Yeah. There are, you know, there are so many modalities. You know, Yogananda has this great quote which is, um, the ideal future will be a combination of the technological advances of the West and the ancient spiritual wisdom, the ancient technology of the East. “ideally balanced global culture” Like if those two could come together, it’s, you know, we’re unstoppable. And now, even in the West, there’s all these nuanced therapeutic practices. So, for instance, both Paola and I have therapists that do internal family systems, Heart’s work, um, where, um, what you’re talking about, Jean, which is there’s the trigger,  can I create a little separation between me, the witness, and the thing that’s going crazy here? You know, if you can, then there’s this there’s this sense that that’s, yes, that’s that’s the story. But it’s not me. I’m, you know, I’m not it. And so you start to work with those energies a little bit and loosen, loosen the hold of, of all that stuff on you. And there’s, there are many, many ways to do it. Breathwork practices, meditation, you know, um, yoga, walks in nature. Some people, you know, equine therapy, spend time with a horse, you know, um, whatever, whatever works for you. You know, that’s the important thing is figure out what works for you and then lean in, you know?

Alison : Right. We’ve talked to a lot of people on this podcast, and the theme is this always comes up as curiosity. And I think documentarians are very curious people, like what you said about you were trying to play piano, but you were more interested in the violin daughter, you know, um, so if you could go and document any moment in history ever, what do you think would would appeal to you to do to do now?

Paola: Well, that’s a really loaded question.

Alison : In a good way or like a edit this out way.

Paola: Is there a choice?

Alison : Yeah. Yes. You can. You can say whatever you like. Okay. My father was a reporter and he was like, you guys. And he was very, very curious. And, um, I always wanted to ask him if you could, if you could have interviewed or covered anyone. Um, who would that who would, who would you? Not to change it, but just to document it.

Paola: Yeah. The reason I hesitate a little bit is because, um, I think that that I guess what I, I guess what’s coming up in this conversation and what is really true for me is that, um, the most important thing as we keep coming back to is this alignment, which to me is equating with healing. Mhm. So I’m very interested in any stories that really, truly do that and take you there. And I guess the hardest thing and the most interesting thing for me too, is to do it on a personal level with a very, very big loss that that, you know, Peter and I had, um, a couple of years ago with the, with the death of our son and, and there’s, um, so much, uh, connection between the, the depth of love and the amount of grief and this beautiful, rich life, um, and the vacuum that it created. And there’s something about being pushed into that reality that is really teaching me and forcing me to, um, to understand that line between story and what is story and story has truth, and story can be distorted, right? Story is something that weaves from distortion and truth and something that we really experience. And um, so to document or to write or to document in any kind of way because, you know, narrative can also document that story. Um, but to use it as, um, as a source, as a resource for a story that’s true about a particular experience or a moment in time and how it’s impacted and affected the lives of the people around. So if I, if but I the reason why I was hesitating is because it’s so deeply personal, and I’m still processing it.

Alison : Yeah, well, thank you for even sharing that. You know, it’s very, very moving and.

Paola: Yeah.

Jean : Yes.

Paola:  I’m really drawn to, um, whatever it is… I’m really drawn to truth.

Jean : Um, that that is so obvious. For both of you.

Alison : It is so obvious. You know, it’s interesting. We we interviewed Scarlett Lewis, whose son was…

Peter: Oh, I know her well, yeah.

Alison : And, um, the amount of, uh, it brings tears to my eyes,  and you guys are creating the same, uh, feeling for me. The amount of love that she just had has so much love and grief that, um. We interviewed doctor Jill Bolte Taylor.

Peter: Yes, Another hero of ours.

Paola: Yes. We love her.

Alison : I am, like, in love with that woman. Because at one point in our interview, she said, um. It was boring just being the peaceful side. Yeah. And that when her mother passed away, the meatiest, um, deepest emotion she felt is the feeling of grief. Mhm. Because it’s so connected to love and it’s so vulnerable and it’s so you want to throw up in a way. Do you know. Oh yeah. And she just, she changed my whole view on, uh, aiming for peace or aiming for, you know, really being solid and in your emotional state. And I think it’s amazing that that you know her and that you.

Paola: We don’t know her, but she was somebody who I, um, I really felt was Peter saying she’s one of our heroes. I mean, I heard her, um, I heard her –  was it her podcast or her, uh, TEDx talk?

Alison : Yep.

Paola: Initially. And I had to run out and get her book.

Alison : Yes.

Paola: And then read her book and just thought, wow. And then, you know, there’s there’s another story, a similar sort of out of body or, you know, near-death story. Eben Alexander, I don’t know if you’re familiar.

Alison : We Interviewed him.

Paola: Oh. You did. Oh, wow. Yeah. These are these are really fascinating, fascinating stories. But that’s right. In other words, those are people that actually experienced going to the other side.

Alison : Right.

Paola: And then had the privilege of, you know, or, you know, chose to come back.

Alison : Right.

Paola: And I think that, uh, you know, in, in our case or in the case of people that don’t don’t leave and come back. Um, there’s still a choice, right? And the choice is to re create a relationship with that person that has been lost. Because that relationship, I don’t believe. I believe that it’s a continuum. So for me, it is really about okay, I can’t see it, I don’t know it. And I want with every ounce of my soul for that person to be here and present. Um, but that’s not going to happen. Nothing. Nothing that I can do can bring that person back. So the idea of leaning into that felt sense. Um, the communication that does happen, to really explore and lean into that is courageous.

Alison : Yeah.

Paola: And it’s courageous in the same way as not just salerno-sonnenberg courage in standing up and being exactly who she is when she touches that violin and Viola Liuzzo’s courage in leaving her five children and husband to go stand for what she believed in as a woman in the 1960s for civil rights. Um, it’s the same courage that Yogananda had. You know, it’s the courage to live by your conviction no matter what anyone else says.

Jean : It’s so true.

Alison :  And we’re in a time right now, we talk about this a lot… We’re in a time right now where there’s so much divisiveness, and I think people think that they’re living in their convictions.  And yet there is a lack of empathy or, and I think um, i think it was in Yogananda that it was the folding into the whole and unfolding back into the individual.

Paola: That, yeah, that’s, Infinite Potential.

Alison : I was like that. I had to keep going back and I wrote it. I have it on my desk because, you know, I think we’re just I think we’re at that point where people need to hear that. Do you agree? Oh.

Paola: Yes. And you know, who was a very dear friend of David Bohm is the Dalai Lama.  And and we just had just the blessing of meeting him in during our trip to India. And it was incredible because, as you mentioned, compassion, you know, and so divisiveness, compassion, you were saying, is the thing that’s missing. And in the presence of this man was just the vibration, the vibration and the the, the Presence of that energy of compassion. So much so that there was just nothing else going on in that moment. You know, the amount of love and compassion and presence and attention that he was able to give to one individual, you know, um, at a time was, uh, was just extraordinary. And I thought to myself, like, this is this is the lesson.

Alison : Yeah.

Paola: Is presence.

Jean : Mhm.

Paola: Right. This is the lesson. So divisiveness is um, I think you were, you were coming off of that as we were talking about being in your conviction, standing and acting from your conviction, I don’t know that, I think is the truer we get to that, it’s not as divisive.

Alison : Yeah.

Peter: Yeah. You know, um, Paola used the word conviction, and we’re using that word, but but there might be a more articulate way of saying it because, you know, people are acting on their so-called convictions and it’s causing mayhem, um, you know, in a lot of communities. And I’m working with this, uh, sort of a spiritual coach. And he was, um, talking to me about this. He says he asked me a question. Do you think that there’s a there’s a truth that everyone in the world agrees to? And my immediate answer was, hell no, of course not. We have all sorts of different opinions, and there’s no way that we’re all going to agree on one truth. And he goes, let me let me ask the question, when is true? When is true? And I guess, okay, okay, you got me now. Now is true. This moment is true. And the idea that we can lean into Presence, like Paolo was saying, like, you know, His Holiness the Dalai Lama of being absolutely fully committed to the moment, to the person in front of you as a divine being. You know, just that idea of that intimacy of, you know, that that those types of interactions, you know, are, are, are true and flawless. Um, when we bring in stories and all that stuff that we learn and we’re told and history and future casting and all this stuff of, you know, those are all stories that are not right now, you know, right now is immaculate. And, um, just the I there’s a courage, and the conviction of being willing to be present is perhaps, you know, that’s kind of perhaps the gesture.

Paola: That’s so great. I mean, like, I think that that’s a great way of putting it, Peter, because I think that presence is sort of the one story. Right. And I think that really what we’re talking about here is when, when, when we come, we were talking about the word alignment before earlier in this talk. And I think that when we are in alignment, we are in the one story and that is our conviction. That is our unique nervous system that we came in with, right. Which is a piece of something and a reflection of something much bigger. That is the Oneness. So, you know, the closer we get to what’s true, I think we’re not we’re not trying to convince anyone else.

Alison : Yep.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : You guys are fantastic.

Alison :  your electricity bill must be low because you are just lighten it up. I think it’s I… You guys are really I. You’re so wonderful. Thank you so much. You really, you gave me chills so many times. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Paola: No, thank you so much for the opportunity. And we really love what you guys do. And thank you for doing what you do and for bringing these conversations.

Alison : this was a lot of fun.

Jean : We really have.

Paola: I’m sure.

Jean : And I know Allison and I could talk with with you for a long time.

Jean : We’re trying to keep our conversations, sort of, you know, at 45 minutes. And I’m going to wrap us up with a with our question of what does the word inside wink mean to you?

Peter: You go Paola.

Paola: You want to go first? I, I actually, for me I felt like, I feel inside wink to me is is sort of the, um, it’s the spark that comes with everything that we’ve just talked about, which is like coming into Presence, coming into truth. And when you know it and you feel it in yourself and in others, that to me is the inside wink.

Alison : Yeah. I love that.

Jean : Beautiful.

Paola: Peter.

Peter: For me, it’s it’s like, um, this the skinny on something really cool, like an open secret. But we’re going to talk about the inside wink, you know.

Alison : Oh, I love that both. Those are both. Excellent. Very. That’s and fun.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : Like I haven’t heard the skinny on something in a while I love that. Um, and then finally, probably the most important question we’ve ever asked anyone pie, cake or ice cream?

Paola: For me, it’s all three.

Alison : Yeah.

Paola: And there’s no way I’m going to be able to distinguish between those three.

Peter: And for me it is papaya because I don’t do sugar.

Alison : Okay.

Jean : I love papaya.

Alison : I love that. Well, thank you so much. And thank you for bringing your movies and your and your heart and your soul. It’s so clear to see you in your documentaries. Like, I’m not surprised that you’re such wonderful people. Thank you so, so much.

Paola: Thank you so much.

Alison : For your work.

Jean : And your presence and your wisdom.

Alison : Yeah.

Paola: And you’re right back at you.

Alison : And when you have more films, we would love to talk to you again.

Paola: Okay great.

Alison :  thank you so much. Have a beautiful day.

Paola: Thank you both.

Jean : Bye. Thank you.

Alison : What did you think of that?

Jean : I mean, talk about presence.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : And wisdom and vulnerability.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : You know, it was, uh. I really could have talked to them much longer.

Alison : Me, too. And they were so generous with their answers. And it was just really… What an interesting conversation. Yeah. And they. I said the minute we got off, I turned to Jean and said, they’re really smart. Like, oh my gosh.

Jean : Very articulate and very heartfelt… You know, all their answers were, were were from their deepest part of themselves. And I really appreciated that. I also wanted to share with them, i didn’t know if they knew that the Self-Realization Temple in Pacific Palisades, where we had all those fires, the building right next door to the temple was burnt down, and on the other side… And the only thing standing there is Paramahansa Yogananda’s temple. It was untouched by the Palisades Fire.

Alison : I didn’t know that.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison :  That’s like a miracle.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : Right. Wow. Yeah. When we write to them, we’ll let them know.

Jean : Oh, yeah.

Alison : Right. Okay. We’ll communicate with them. But, um, some of their…. The idea of being present. And I thought when Peter said when is the truth? Right now. Like just to remind us just to be– even if you don’t see their films, just listening to this interview about being present and about committing to your journey and committing to…

Jean : Your own truth, your own your own direct experience.

Alison : Right. And allowing yourself to actually grow into the best possible you, you know, the biggest, most expansive view.

Jean : I love that. Well said.

Alison : Thank you. Well, you did the one in the intro, so I had to do one good thing. Um, we hope you enjoyed it and have a, um, have a great day.

Jean : Have a great day.

Alison : Bye.

Alison: Hello? Yeah. Okay, great. We did it.

Jean: Very nice.

Alison: We did it. And we were enough. We were enough to do it.

Jean: We’re totally enough. And we’re not going to criticize ourselves or over evaluate.

Alison: That’s right. Wow. It has been a time. Huh? It’s been a time. A lot going on. And, um. You were saying you were so busy. I have been busy. It’s been a lot, right?

Jean: It has been.

Jean: And I don’t think we’re alone in that. A lot of people I talk to have, um, have been through a lot. Um, this has been. It feels like more has been packed into these past few months. And time has been going by so fast,

Alison: So fast.

Alison: I can’t even believe it. And that’s why when we had to read this book or wanted to read this. Well, no, it was a had, right? Because we always like to we always like to be prepared for the interview.

Jean: Sure.

Alison: But then as I read it, I actually couldn’t put it down because it’s how to be enough. Right.

Jean: Self acceptance for Self Critics and Perfectionists.

Alison: By Ellen Hendriksen. And I have to say, it’s it’s a lot going on in this book. There is a lot of tips and stories and I ideas about perfectionism, procrastination, values, how to move into self-forgiveness, self-awareness, stop listening to a voice in your head. And and it’s all very I felt it was all so relatable. My entire book is marked up.

Jean: I think I said that to you. I said, oh, she wrote a book for us, Alison. Yeah. And and even though we just said there’s so much in this great book, it’s not a clinical, dry book by any means.

Alison: It’s fun.

Jean: It is a fun. Inspiring and aha moment type book.

Alison: Yeah, I can’t wait to talk to her.

Jean: Yes!

Alison: Because she talks a lot about herself in the book and about her own perfectionism and procrastination and all those feelings. So it’s going to be exciting to actually meet her for me.

Jean: Yeah, yeah.

Alison: Are you ready?

Jean: I’m absolutely ready.

Alison: Here we go. Ellen Hendrickson.

Alison: Hi.

Ellen: Hi.

Jean: Hi, Ellen.

Ellen: How are you?

Alison: We’re very good. I’m so happy to talk to you.

Ellen: Me? I’m excited to talk to you. I’m so impressed that you’re in the same room. I love that you record literally together. That’s fantastic.

Alison: We hang out a lot.

Ellen: I love it.

Jean: People say that, Ellen, that when we come together, they’re always like, oh, look at you two together.

Ellen: And yeah, I was expecting two different screens, but here you are. I love it.

Alison: You always seem to dress alike.

Ellen: Well, I clearly didn’t get the memo because I’m in i’m in a different color. That’s okay.

Jean: That’s a great color on you.

Alison: I’m so happy to talk to you.

Ellen: Great. I’m happy to talk to you. Let’s talk.

Alison: Okay. So how to be enough? This was such an intense and yet wonderful read for me this book. First, I think…. Do you have children?

Ellen: I do, I have, uh, two boys, 14 and 17.

Alison: And they’re who you dedicated the book to.

Ellen: Yes, yes, that’s exactly right.

Alison: So I have two kids, and when I was reading the beginning of your book, I had anxiety come up.

Ellen: Oh, no. I’m sorry.

Alison: I know, no, it’s it’s fascinating. I had some anxiety come up that I was not a good enough mom because you lay out genetics, setting…

Ellen: Mhm.

Alison: And I thought that was fascinating that in a book about how to be enough…. I’m feeling like not enough already.

Ellen: Well hopefully I gave you some tools to stop feeling that way.

Alison: By the end, by the end everything is dog eared and it’s  a fascinating journey to feel like to go from that to this. Can you describe, can you describe a little bit of that, how we how we begin to feel like we need perfectionism in our own lives and then how we can move away from that?

Ellen: Yeah, absolutely. Um, do you want me to talk about sort of where perfectionism Comes from, like the origins. Sure, sure. Okay, well, here, let me let me do a 30,000 foot view and give folks a definition of perfect or like at least my working definition of perfectionism. And I find this actually kind of hilarious because there are several definitions in the research world out there. And I think it’s funny that people who do this for a living, you know, including myself, can’t agree on a perfect definition of perfectionism. So the one, the one that I like to use is that it’s a tendency to demand more of ourselves than the situation requires. And the reason I like that definition is because you can look at it two different ways. There’s two sides of that coin on the one side, please keep demanding of yourself more than the situation requires. That’s how we shoot for the stars. That’s how we hit home runs. That’s how we insert tortured metaphor here. That’s but that’s how we do a lot of good work. So yeah, don’t don’t stop doing that. And then also the Heart of that healthy kind of perfectionism is conscientiousness, which, according to researchers, is the number one personality trait for both objective and subjective success in life. So please keep doing that.

Ellen: But perfectionism, tendency to demand more of ourselves than the situation requires can also kind of tip over into being a referendum on our character. Where it goes wrong is where it tips over into how when our evaluation of our performance and I use performance very loosely, that could mean grades. That could mean how clean we keep our house. That could mean how good a parent was i today, could mean how much money we brought in this year. Lots of ways to measure performance. Did I eat clean today? Uh, that when we when we tip over into something called overvaluation, that’s when our evaluation of our performance, uh, kind of overgrows and becomes an evaluation of ourselves as a person. It becomes a referendum on our character. So that’s that’s where perfectionism can turn unhealthy. Okay. That’s my my 30,000 foot view. Uh, in terms of where it comes from, you’re absolutely right. You mentioned genetics. So the cutting edge of science is looking like it’s going to tell us that there are there’s definitely a genetic element to perfectionism. It also can come from the, you know, the way we were raised. So our early childhood experiences. And I want to say that you can come out of any family perfectionistic. There’s nothing, you know, we’re not restricted to a certain type of family.

Ellen: But, uh, the sort of OG perfectionism researchers Gordon Flett and Paul Hewitt tell us that there are four types of families that we are where we are more likely to come out perfectionistic, and that is in families where we just we just get perfectionism modeled for us. There’s high standards, high pressure. A second type is where love is contingent upon performance. That love and pride kind of get confused, and we get lots of attention and and positive regard when we deliver, when we perform, and we end up mistaking that for love. Then there are the families where they’re sort of like helicopter or snowplow. Uh, it’s the families that remind me sort of, of the character of Marlin in Finding Nemo, where he says, I’m never going to let anything happen to you. And then Dory comes up and says, but then nothing will ever happen to him. So. Exactly. And then finally, the fourth type of family is sort of a a chaotic, uh, dramatic, erratic family where then kids will double down on performance in order to have a sense of control. Understandably, they may sort of unconsciously or unconsciously think, well, you know, I can’t control dad’s drinking, but I can control my grades or I can’t control, you know, mom’s mood swings and temper….

Ellen: But I can be bubbly and the most popular person in school. So it comes from genetics families. But I find perfectionism to be particularly fascinating because it also comes from all around us. It comes from the environment. It’s conferred from our surroundings, and every human reacts to the situations we’re put in. And so when we’re put in an environment that is has low tolerance of mistakes, like mistakes are not allowed, and if we make a mistake, we are harshly criticized and punished. Of course, we’re going to respond with some perfectionism. So this is called a perfectionistic climate. The researcher Andrew Hill coined this term and when he first coined the term, he sort of meant like the highest levels of women’s gymnastics, like climates like that. But honestly, I think all of 2025, all of American culture or Western culture has sort of become a perfectionistic climate. Social media is certainly a perfectionistic climate. So when we are put in a culture that expects us to perform and achieve and consume to ever higher levels just to be sufficient as a person, of course we’re going to respond by not feeling good enough. So yeah, genetics, family, but also just the water we swim in. But yes, that was a very long answer.

Jean: that was great because I think for most of us we can check all of them off.

Alison: Yeah.

Jean: A little bit of each, you know, and, um.

Alison: It’s so true.

Jean: Yeah. So I love in the beginning of your book, you compare, um, Mister Rogers, fred Rogers to uh, Walt Disney.

Ellen: I loved writing that. That was so fun.

Jean: I thought that was so clever. Can you talk about that with our listeners?

Ellen: Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, Walt Disney and Fred Rogers, they’re they’re both titans of children’s entertainment. They’re, you know, what they created is both beloved and immortal. And they actually had remarkably similar personalities. They both had really high standards. They were both quite intense. They both had really strong work ethics. They both focused on the details, but they really lived those traits and values very differently. So just for example, let’s look at how they approached mistakes. So in the book, like I tell the story of Mister Rogers, you know, there was a show where he, as usual, was changing from his blazer to his cardigan, and then as he was singing the song and the cameras were rolling, he realized that he was one button off like that he had buttoned his sweater wrong, and everybody on the crew, knowing his standards, expected him to call cut and to Refilm, but instead he just rebuttons the sweater, and he remarks to the camera that, you know, mistakes happen and they can be corrected. And by contrast, I tell the story of Walt Disney’s micromanagement of the making of Snow White, where he, you know, he can’t bring himself to trust this world class team of artists that he’s hired, and he makes them redo tiny details like the Queen’s eyebrows are too extreme, Grumpy’s finger is too big. And at the premiere, he even tells a reporter, I wish I could yank it back and do it all over again. So, you know, Disney’s high standards were, like, rigidly focused on avoiding mistakes, but Mr. Rogers flexibly folded mistakes into his high standard, so I thought that was a really interesting foil, a combination that these folks are the same and extremely different.

Alison: Right? Right. And I think what’s interesting too is you, you you go back to Mr. Rogers at the end. And that was just so sweet. I don’t want to give it away because I want people to book, but it’s the ending is so sweet when the interviewer comes to interview him.

Ellen: Mhm.

Alison: Um, I think what was interesting to me is um,  procrastination.

Ellen: Oh yeah.

Alison: And perfectionism, because they sound like they would not be mixing.

Ellen: Right.

Alison: Like, you know, can you, can you, because that part I was like, wow, that is so true. Can you talk a little bit about that for us?

Ellen: Yeah. For sure. Yeah, that is quite counterintuitive, that procrastination and perfectionism go together because I would say most of us think that procrastination is a time management problem. But the the-  I’m a big nerd, so, you know, the papers that I read and the research that I looked at really showed that it’s more of an emotion regulation problem and perfectionism drives procrastination because aversive tasks, like things we just don’t want to do, require quite a bit of self-regulation. Like we have to sort of psych ourselves up to, to focus. We have to, uh, be we don’t have to be ready, but, um, it takes a lot of self-regulation to, to go tackle something that’s like yucky or boring or tedious, and self-regulation deteriorates under emotional distress. So, when we feel distressed and overwhelmed and paralyzed because our standards are super high and unrealistic and unforgiving. Like, for instance, we might feel like we have to do the whole task in one go, or we have to feel, we feel like we have to, um, complete it without struggling or do overs, and we have to, like our first draft has to be our final draft. Procrastination steps in as a coping mechanism because it it’s a double whammy because it allows us to both avoid the task that’s making us feel bad and immediately, immediately replace it with something that makes us feel better. So wow, not only do I not have to, for me, like, write my newsletter this week, I can scroll TikTok and look at look at dog videos. This is great. So it’s it. Yeah. You’re to go full circle, uh, counterintuitively, yeah, we would think that people with perfectionism would be focused and all in and striving hard every minute. But really, uh, perfect Procrastination creeps in quite a bit.

Alison: Then how did you finish this book?

Ellen: Yeah. Yeah I that’s a that’s a great question. Yeah. No I think finally I think it is it is…. Well actually we could get into this. Um, so it, I valued what I was doing enough that that the meaning and the purpose and honestly, the fun I do enjoy writing, overrode those initial negative emotions of feeling overwhelmed or paralyzed. And honestly, I broke it down into little teeny tiny steps. And that, that is that is a classic trick. But I think it bears repeating that if we’re feeling overwhelmed, you know, break it down into little teeny tiny steps and nobody has to know how small your steps are. I tell the story in the book. I was working with the banana guy, this lovely client who had diabetes, and he was trying to motivate himself to get to the gym. And so we broke it down into little teeny tiny steps. And his first step was peel a banana. It wasn’t even eat the banana, it was peel the banana. And this sent him onto, you know, a cascade of steps of peel the banana, eat the banana, like, because that would fuel his workout. You find car keys, you know. Et cetera. Et cetera. Et cetera. And it was, the trick is to break things down into steps that are so small you feel no resistance. So for me, with writing, if I told myself, okay, well, I’m going to break it down into like day by day, but like, write for eight hours is still super overwhelming. And so, you know, if I break it down into, okay, write for 15 minutes, I can do that, that’s fine. And then then oftentimes the dirty little secret is that once you get started, usually momentum keeps you going. Not always, but you know, and then you can just break it down again. Uh, and so break it down until you feel no resistance.

Alison: That’s great. Yeah.

Jean: That is great. Um, I was looking at my notes, trying to see the lady’s, your client, maybe you changed her name?

Ellen: I definitely changed her name. Yeah.

Jean: I love that you shared this story. I could so relate because the same thing sort of happened to me was she was caretaking for her mom… Um, and she went on vacation.

Alison: Yeah.

Ellen: Mhm.

Jean: Right. And she couldn’t forgive herself.

Ellen: Mhm.

Jean: Right. She was like, she had this high standard, right, coupled with you know… And you give so many, by the way Ellen your examples are great…

Alison: Are so great.

Ellen: Like they’re they’re from real life. These are real people and and I, I am of a firm belief that if one person has experienced something, probably a thousand people have experienced the same thing. So I find that in the very specific individual stories is really a universal lesson.

Jean: Right, right. Yeah. And this particular woman really had a hard time letting go that she made a mistake. And the the chapter you write about, I think it’s human’s fail… Like we’re, just,we do– we’re going to happen, and you say something like, just expect it, because we do fail… Right, right.

Ellen: And yeah, I mean it’s it’s very messy.

Jean: Yeah.

Ellen: Human for sure. Um, yeah. The. Yeah. The woman you talk about.  Was caretaking for her, uh, ill mother, and everybody pressured her to take a break. She was all in on caretaking, and perfectionism tends to be sort of all or nothing. And she was definitely in all mode. And, uh, so even her mother, you know, said, go take a vacation. And so she, she went away with her boyfriend. And then things went wrong at, at home. And her mother was kind of never the same. Like she had had an allergic reaction to a new medication. And yeah, my client was ten years later, or 15 years later, was still struggling with forgiving herself. And and so we yeah, we worked a lot on, um, making room for mistakes, but also just self-compassion. So the those of us who have a streak of perfectionism are often quite hard on ourselves, you know, for sometimes for years and years and years. And so that’s because self-compassion, uh, consists of, you know, being kind to ourselves, to being mindful of our emotions and, you know, in the moment and our, our perfectionistic brains are sort of reverse threaded for, for, for both of these things. So, um, it can be hard and can feel wrong to be kind to ourselves or to, um, pay attention or not even– okay, to allow ourselves to have the self-critical thoughts that we’re kind of wired for.

Ellen: Like, just like, you know, some brains are more optimistic or pessimistic or some brains are more introverted or extroverted. You know, those of us with some perfectionism are just wired to be a little more self-critical. But that doesn’t mean we have to take those self-critical thoughts seriously or literally. Like just because we think it. It’s like that bumper sticker like, don’t believe everything you think. And so, um, so learning to be mindful of thoughts and saying, hey, I oh, this is what my brain does. Oh, this is how I’m wired. Oh, this is how I talk to myself when things like this happen, you know, can definitely be counterintuitive but is extremely useful. So I mean, I’ll use myself as an example. Actually, this is okay. I will predict that after, you know, after I get off any kind of interview, anything involving a microphone, anything that involves me hitting send and like my work goes out into the world, I, my brain just starts to go and it’s like, ah, why did I say it that way? Like I said, too much or like, oh, I didn’t say enough or like, oh, I think, I think I like monopolize that.

Ellen: Like, I like my brain just keeps starts going. I think a lot of us can probably relate to that in, in different scenarios. And so I have, uh, worked hard to try to chalk that up to just that’s, that’s how my brain works. Like, this is what happens. It’s just part of the script, like, just kind of like when you go to a restaurant, there’s a script, like you are seated by the hostess and you’re given a menu and you, you know, you order your food and it comes and you eat and then you pay and then you leave. Like, that’s just the script that happened. So for me, I do something involving a microphone. And I know we have a lovely conversation. And then I turn it off and then I start to criticize myself. It’s just what happens. And so I don’t have to take it seriously. I can treat it like I treat the music at a coffee shop or the the Muzak at the grocery store. It’s there. I can hear it. It’s not going away. But I don’t have to, like, sing along. Like, I don’t have to believe the lyrics. Literally. So that’s that’s been helpful for me in terms of self-compassion.

Alison: So much like what you just described, you should just hang out with us because we are like, oh, the thing I like, I’ll say, Jean, remember when we talked about this thing and I said that other thing? What? I didn’t mean it that way. Did it sound like this? And then also in your book, you talk about and this is when I like had to reread it many time, you talk about if someone says to me, hey, can you, uh, pick up XY for me at this time, I feel I have to say yes.

Ellen: Mhm mhm.

Alison: Otherwise, my self-worth is really diminished.

Ellen: Sure.

Alison: That’s like the fact that you brought that up. It’s just very powerful. Don’t– like, like what do you do? Like can you give our listeners ideas about that?

Ellen: Yeah. Yeah I think I think what you’re referring to is that, that people with perfectionism, uh, love rules. So. Yeah. And and so it makes sense. You know, rules reduce uncertainty. Uncertainty drives anxiety. So rules reduce anxiety. Cool. I’ll take that. That sounds good to me. And so, you know, we want to know the rules so we can follow them. Uh, and I don’t know if you do this. I certainly do this. If there are no rules, then we make up personally demanding rules and then follow those. So like think about making up rules for training for A 5K or making up rules for healthy eating or, you know, whatever we’re trying to do. And, you know, please keep setting goals, please, you know, please keep doing that. That’s not necessarily bad. But when we make those rules rigid so we apply them no matter the situation. Like we try to follow our healthy eating plan even on Halloween. Uh, if we apply them as all or nothing, you know, we we can the, um, are the criteria for adequate is set at flawless right then, and so if we screw up, it renders us unacceptable, and you didn’t mention this, but if, like if we impose our rules on other people, then it can certainly get in the way of our relationships. So rules inherently are not bad. But when they get rigid all or nothing and we impose them on other people, then they can certainly get in the way. So, um, in the book I tell of a client who I love this quote, she said, “through a combination of God and my mother, I was taught to be generous.”

Alison: Right?

Ellen: But but that meant for her that if a neighbor asked her to babysit, if a, you know, unhoused person on the street asked her for money like she had to do it. So I think that gets into your comment about if somebody asks you for a favor, you feel like you have to. So for her, generosity was functioning as a rule, like it was something she had to do. But if we think about generosity as, and I’ll introduce a new term here, as a value, then there’s a difference between feeling like we have to do something and us choosing to do something. Like in the in the generosity example, you know, our generosity should be freely chosen. And the very spirit of generosity is is that giving, it’s not the it’s not having to to do something. So we can try to shift from asking ourselves, do I, do I have to do this like, am I, do I feel like I do I feel obliged or dutiful or coerced even? Or am I choosing to do this? And and even if it’s something that we do actually have to do, like pay our taxes or, you know, whatever, like then is there something in there that we can choose? Can we find an element of choice within our actions? Because there’s a big difference in terms of how we feel, rather between feeling again coerced, that we have to do this, versus I choose to do this right.

Jean: It’s like an empowerment, when you can actually realize, this is what I’m choosing versus feeling coerced

Alison: And just the idea of values too, like what is meaningful in my life? And how can I relate that to a situation which I love when you talk about that, I thought that was I thought that was great.

Jean: And yeah, and I think a lot of people, I’ll just speak for myself like, you feel guilty.

Ellen: Of course.

Jean: When you really don’t want to do something, but you feel like, oh, I’m, I’m the one that always shows up. I’m the one that always.

Ellen: Mhm.

Jean: brings dessert or the joy. Like uh you know, so I, I think well you say it in your B title on the book self-acceptance. Um and Becoming aware, I think Alison and I are both on a journey of becoming more aware of our conditioned way of being, and more coming from a place of authenticity.

Ellen: Mhm. Mhm.

Jean: Um, and there’s, it’s a little scary sometimes to change up the rules, like when you.

Ellen: Absolutely.  Yeah. If we think of ourselves as, uh, like a label, like I’m the caretaker or I’m like you said, I’m the one who always shows up. I’m the supermom. I’m  the smart one. Then it’s really hard not to be that. It’s really hard to to have to choose actions that don’t seem like they’re in line with that. But then what happens is that our labels, which might be, might be of our own choosing, but are usually imposed by either other people or a society or our gender, then then that it takes the element of choice out of it if we have to do things because of the label assigned to us, whereas if we follow a value, then again that that choice comes into play. So I’ll here, I’ll do a brief tangent on what a value is, because I feel like that’s a word that gets thrown around a lot but doesn’t often get like really defined. So this is um, the this I took this from Michael Touhig and Clarissa Ong, who wrote a wonderful book called The Anxious Perfectionist. And they describe a value as having four qualities. So one, a value is continuous. So you are never done living a value. It’s different than a goal because a goal you can check off on a list. So like making $1 million is not a value, but like wealth or financial security is, it’s you can always go, you know going to Boston is is a goal.

Ellen: But going east is the metaphorical value. Okay. So that’s one. Two is that your values are intrinsically meaningful, meaning you would care about it even if nobody else knew. So it’s it’s something that really you care about. It’s not something you’re performing for other people. Three is a value is under your control. It’s not contingent upon anyone else. So being loved is actually not a value, but being loving to others is. That’s something you can control. And then this gets into what we were talking about before, is that values are freely chosen. So values are never coercive or obligatory, and we freely choose to follow them and are even likely to tolerate some discomfort or inconvenience in order to follow our values. So an example that I give is that like a value of giving back might be why you’re willing to give up your Saturday morning to go volunteer to pick up trash on a beach or, you know, work at a soup kitchen rather than spending the day like relaxing at the beach or like making making soup yourself. So so that that sense of values being freely chosen is what really differentiates them from rules or from having to act in accordance with your label. So, um, if, if we and here… Okay, so and one more thing I realized this is a very long answer too, um, when we’re following our values, you know, if we as we switch from rules to values or labels to values, we might not actually do anything overtly differently on the surface, it may just be sort of driven by a different force underneath. So an example I like to give for that is, um, oftentimes we feel like we have to be a good friend. So that could be our label. I’m the good friend. Or that could be a rule. I have to be a good friend. Okay. If we’re operating that way, there are certain things I have to do. I have to remember their birthday. I have to ask them detailed questions about their life. I have to maybe surprise them with their favorite coffee order when we go for a walk. And so, you know, none of those things are bad, those are lovely, please keep doing those. But what gets in the way is that that have to, that sense of duty and obligation and coercion and that, you know, can make our friendships feel contingent or make them feel sort of like a people pleasing grind. So if we shift to a value of, say, being attentive or being supportive, and then we are freely choosing to run towards those values, we might still remember their birthday. We might still ask them detailed questions about their life, we might still surprise them about their favorite coffee order, but the quality of the experience changes and it feels like a choice rather than a should. And that makes all the difference.

Alison: That reminds me too,  first of all, that was great.

Jean: We love quality of experience.

Ellen: Yes.

Alison: And we love your long answers.

Ellen: Cool. I have more of them if you want them.

Jean: It’s so juicy.

Alison: Yeah, I loved your Mad Libs. Oh, I thought they were great. So can you, uh, can you talk about that, that those great Mad Libs that you have, because I think you also do it in your first book, right?

Ellen: Yeah, yeah. So the first book is about social anxiety and, um, social anxiety is, yeah, we’ll do we’ll do a quick tangent on social anxiety because I think that’s highly relatable, and perfectionism and social anxiety are, you know, maybe not twins but are definitely close cousins. Uh, or to mix my metaphors, the perfectionism is is sort of the beating heart of social anxiety. Uh, okay. Anyway, so, um, yeah, the Mad Libs, they’re for social anxiety. Is that people… It will become obvious to everyone that I am, you know, blank, so insert, uh, aspect of self here And they will judge and reject me for it, basically. So, uh, social anxiety that that aspect of self, the it will become obvious to everyone that I am blank and then they’ll judge and reject me, for it, usually falls into one of four categories. So it’s either our appearance so people will see that I’m, um, underdressed or ugly or, um, my nose is weird, something like that. Or the second category is the signs of anxiety itself. So people will notice that my hands are shaking.

Ellen: People will notice my voice is quavering. People will notice that I’m blushing and they’ll think I’m weird, or they’ll think I’m a pervert or whatever. Okay, um, the third is, um, is social skills. That’s right. I haven’t thought about this in a little while because I’ve been talking about perfectionism for so long. So the third is social skills. People will think that I am awkward people, it will become obvious that I have nothing to say. It will become clear that I’m boring and they’ll judge and reject me for it. And then the fourth category is sort of our overall character. So like, people will see that I’m a loser. People will see that I’m a failure, people will see I’m incompetent or incapable. And and so that’s that’s the Mad Libs of social anxiety. And it’s the it all boils down to we think there’s something wrong with us, that there’s an aspect of ourselves that will be judged, rejected or criticized by others. And so we work really hard to conceal it and avoid situations where it might be revealed.

Alison: And then in this book.

Ellen: Yes. Thank you for bringing us back.

Alison: So In this book, i love the way you’re like, um, I’m a I’m a very neat person, but sometimes I leave my socks on the floor.

Ellen: Yes, yes.

Alison: And or like, I’m, I’m, um, I’m very conscious of, uh, eating healthy. And sometimes I’ll eat a bag of Oreos or something.

Ellen: Exactly.

Alison: But, you know, like, like that, and that felt so freeing to me.

Ellen: Yeah, it moves us from either or, again, those of us with perfectionism are often kind of all or nothing. And so here we, when we moved to both and, with the Mad Libs, we get to retain our overall idea of ourself as a good person. But to make room for the inevitable mistakes and struggles and do overs of life. So yeah, I um. Okay, and the reason I think that’s important the making room for mistakes, making room for errors is because, that’s different than lower your standards. Because I feel like the the the traditional advice for people with perfectionism is, you know, you really have to lower your standards or like, you know, like that’s good enough. And I understand the, the, the well-meaning part of that advice. And if you’ve ever told someone with perfectionism to lower their standards, they will bristle. They will not, that is not going to go over well because, of that overlap between, you know, evaluating performance and evaluating ourselves. If we are kind of stuck in that over evaluation, suggesting that we settle for subpar or mediocre performance means that we’re subpar or mediocre, we’re not going to do that. Forget it. So allowing ourselves to to do some both. And yeah, of I’m a diligent person who sometimes slacks off. I’m a great parent who sometimes loses my temper. I’ve arrived, I’ve made it, and I’m still seeking. We can again retain that that fundamental good overall idea of ourself and make some room for mistakes.

Alison: Yeah, I love that.

Jean: It reminds me of your story in your book about the doctor who misdiagnosed a child.

Ellen: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Jean: And you, Ellen, you talk about giving that space between. What did you say? You say like you’re-  i did something, okay? I didn’t do this, but I’m not that, like, don’t make it personal just because I made a mistake.

Ellen: Ah, yes yes yes yes.

Jean: I am not the Mistake.

Ellen: Right, right, right. Yeah. There’s a there’s a big difference between saying like, I made that mistake versus I made that mistake. Like when the emphasis is on us, when we turn our spotlight, you know, towards ourselves, we’re going to feel more shame or guilt or just general sort of negative emotions. People with perfectionism tend to be a little bit shame prone. It doesn’t mean that shame is, I don’t want to say not real, i don’t want to gaslight anybody, but there it’s that’s just how we’re wired. We’re just wired to sometimes feel a little bit more shame than the typical person. And so that because we tend to say “I” made that mistake as opposed to the I made that mistake and turn our spotlight towards the performance. So yes, the the story you’re referring to is, um, I had a client who was a pediatrician, and she had been a pediatrician for many years, storied career, I think 25 years, and by all accounts was excellent at her job. And she came into session one day and was just beside herself and was saying things like, maybe I should retire early, maybe I should get my brain examined. I think I’m slipping because she had misdiagnosed a little girl and said, you know, I think this is just constipation. But she ended up having appendicitis and had to go to the emergency room. She was fine. Everything was okay. But again, my client was just just like being so hard on herself. And so we talked about, okay, over the course of a 25 year career, how many misdiagnoses are you going to make? The answer can’t be zero.

Ellen: And just making room for even just like 1%, half a percent is so much that gives you so much more wiggle room than zero. Like, yeah, even if the answer is teeny tiny, as long as it’s not zero, that’s really what matters. So, you know, and we can apply that to anything. How many times am I going to have an awkward silence? Like how many awkward silences will I have on a first date? The answer can’t be zero. How many times will I say, um while recording a podcast? The answer can’t be zero. Uh, how many B’s am I going to get? Or C’s am I going to get over the course of my academic career? Answer can’t be zero. And that creates just a little bit of wiggle room for the inevitable struggles of life and being human. And with the going back to the pediatrician, I would argue we shouldn’t tell her to lower her standards. That would that would not be appropriate, I think. So not only would it not go over well, but we don’t want to say like, oh, you know, it’s your diagnoses are good enough. So yeah, no, you wouldn’t want to tell, you know, airline pilot or a surgeon, you know, you’re not going to say good enough, but making room for like inevitable mistakes that can often be corrected is a much better way to go.

Jean: I mean, that’s so yeah, like some of these professions, the two we just, you know, a doctor and an airline pilot.

Alison: Yeah.

Jean: I mean that’s that’s high.

Ellen: Yeah. You can’t lower your standards, you know.

Alison: No. Right. You can’t. Can you tell me? You. You know, you’re very honest about how you’re a perfectionist. And so what was the hardest thing for you to change about yourself or work through after doing this book? Like. Or was it all just like, whew, easy.

Ellen: Oh I wish. Uh, yeah, I think. Okay. Um, my yeah, I’m a pretty classic perfectionistic person. I was definitely holding that mindset of my self-evaluation. My self-worth is overly dependent on meeting those personally demanding standards I held for myself. And so throughout my life, I was definitely conflating what I did with who I was. And that changed as like as I aged and what is important in what stage of life changed. So for example, in high school I really overidentified with my grades in college and as a young adult, the focus is on social behavior, and that happens to be, I think, when my social anxiety was at its highest because I’m like, oh, I can’t, you know, I can’t make social mistakes. I have to be cool. I have to be funny. There was no room for social error when I was launching my career. I was overly focused on productivity. Like, did I get everything on the list done? And so, you know, that’s already not great. But I was also doing three more things that I think made my life harder. One was we talked about this before, that my only two options were all or nothing. So if I got straight A’s except for one 87, like it disqualified all those other A’s and like put me at nothing or like in my, in my productivity like era… Um, if even if I got, you know, a bunch of things done on my to do list, but 1 or 2 got left undone, it rendered the whole day not good enough. So that’s one thing. The second thing that was making my life harder was that I would focus on flaws and details.

Ellen: So it’s the equivalent of focusing on the one frowning face in the sea of smiles, even if everything else goes well. Like the detail of what went wrong is what I would focus on afterwards. And that third eye was really hard on myself, you know. I did set that standard for adequate at flawless. And so when I inevitably fell short of my personally demanding standards, you know, not because I was inadequate or incapable, but because I’m a person like I, um, I was really hard on myself. And the worst part is that if I pulled out all the stops and somehow, like, actually met my personally demanding standards, I would decide that those standards were insufficiently demanding in the first place and move the goalposts. So don’t do any of those things. Um, so I think the heart of most of it was the over evaluation was confusing what I do with who I am and so trying to separate those out. Yeah, make some room for mistakes. Uh, focus on a bigger picture was really hard. But ultimately I feel like is what was most helpful to me. Am I still perfectionistic? Yes, of course, but I feel like I am the more adaptive kind of perfectionism now. I like to think I’m more of the Mister Rogers perfectionism than the Walt Disney perfectionism. Do I still have my moments and, you know, like, sometimes I’m really hard on myself. Or sometimes I, uh, perseverate over a mistake I made, of course. But I think ironically, that’s that’s part of how this works. I am an imperfect perfectionist.

Alison: Yeah, a work in progress.

Ellen: Absolutely. And always will be. As as will be all. Yeah.

Jean: And thank goodness we have self-acceptance. And this book.

Alison: Is so great.

Jean: has So many great tools.  I mean, honestly, Ellen, we could spend so much time talking with you. Um, going over every chapter, you really get in deep, uh, about self-criticism and perfectionism. But, um, anyway, I hope we touched on some real juicy favorite parts, and I, um, so we’re going to wrap up, right?

Ellen: Sure. I’m delighted you liked it. That’s wonderful.

Alison: Loved it.

Jean: Loved it. Yes. So consider yourself. You got an A plus.

Ellen: Yeah.

Ellen: My my the my inner grade grubber. My past, past life grade grubber. Really appreciate that. Thank you.

Alison: Yeah. So, um, we are wondering what you think inside wink means?

Ellen: Yeah. Of course I thought I like that you asked this because. Okay, I don’t remember the name of the game, but there’s a there’s a game where, like you don’t we make up definitions of words…. I think it’s called balderdash. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it reminded me of that. So I was like, oh, I get to play a game. Um, okay. So inside wink uh, makes me think of, uh, sort of like a, like a self-assured wink where we wink to communicate to somebody else, like, hey, I got this or or, hey, let me handle this. But I think when you add inside to it, it feels like we’re, you know, doing that to ourselves. Like, I got this. Let me handle it. It feels like self-assurance or like confidence in one’s own abilities to stay on brand. I feel like it’s a cousin to self-acceptance. So that’s that is my balderdash definition of inside wink.

Alison: I love that, and it could mean you’re enough.

Ellen: Yeah. That’s true. Thank you. Yeah, I yes, what you said.

Alison: I love that. That’s perfect. That’s a perfect definition I love that.

Ellen: Fantastic.

Jean: Great. Okay. And for the final question, which is.

Ellen: Most important, yes.

Jean: Hundred thousand dollars is, um, cake pie or ice cream? Which do you prefer.

Ellen: Sure. I thought I actually thought about this for an inordinately long amount of time. So. So my the answer that I finally settled on was all three, but never together. So my family thinks I’m crazy because I have just never liked alamode. Uh, like, I love pie, you know? Love a good piece of cake, but I just do not want ice cream on top. That is, I never, never shall they meet. So call me a purist. Call me a perfectionist. But, uh, all three, but never together.

Alison: I. I think you might be an original.

Ellen: Okay. Yeah,

Jean:  I love that you said that.

Ellen: Oh, there we go.

Alison: So we’ll get three dishes when you come over.

Ellen: That’s absolutely. That sounds good to me.

Jean: And we’ll put them on opposite sides of the table.

Alison: That’s right.  Thank you so much for talking to us. You really are just so much fun and interesting.

Jean: yes. Thank you.

Ellen: Oh,  You are both delightful. Thank you so much for having me on and asking such great questions.

Alison: And congratulations,  I’m giving this as Christmas gifts.

Jean: Yes.

Ellen: Oh, wow.

Jean: Yeah…I was telling my friend,  Renee about this book, and she said, Jean, can you send me one? And I said, I have an extra copy.,

Ellen: Phenomenal.

Alison: Thank you.

Ellen: Oh. Thank you. That warms my heart.

Alison: And have a great day.

Ellen: You too. Take care. Thanks for having me on.

Alison: Bye.

Jean: Bye.

Alison: Oh my goodness. Right?

Jean: She hit it out of the park.

Alison: Yeah. And she. First of all, I love how. Because when you read the book, you think, oh, this woman is really got it together. And then she’s so honest in the book about how sometimes she doesn’t and her personality is so authentic and out there, she’s like, oh wait, let me get that. You know, I love that when people are just human and not and not like all polishy.

Jean: No, no no, no, she she was warm… And as you can hear from the interview, warm and welcoming and and funny. And I think she just exudes like this… Um, it’s all okay… Just accept it, you know? And, uh, what a great doctor to sit with her and go over your.

Alison: I should have said that, doctor Ellen Hendriksen. That’s true. Exactly.

Jean: Um, yeah.

Alison: she’s great. And I felt too like for me, this book, um, she does a whole thing about how to move things from your head, thought to your heart, and to let go of your rules and, um.

Jean: Rewriting your script.

Alison: Right.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: Right.

Jean: Um.

Alison: Which is something you and I talk about a lot.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: Just in our friendship.

Jean: Right. And reframing and, uh, a way to look at things. So this is this was this was one of my favorite books.

Alison: It’s excellent. It’s an excellent book. So we’re going to tell you you are enough. But I know you don’t believe us. So read the book, How to Be Enough, by Doctor Ellen Hendriksen.

Jean: Exactly.

Alison: I think that’s.

Jean: Beautiful. You nailed it. It was perfect, Allison.

Alison: Thank you, thank you. Jeannie, have a great day.

Jean: bye.