Podcast Episode 59: Deanna deBara

Alison: Hi.

Jean: Here we are again in my sacred closet.

Alison: That’s right in the closet, because my Wi-Fi is not working. So there you have it.

Jean: Okay, so today we are interviewing someone whose topic is so relevant that we all can relate to.

Alison: It’s about being stuck. Have you ever felt stuck?

Jean: A better question would be how often have you not felt stuck?

Alison: Exactly. I think we’ve all suffered from stuckness. Yeah. And our guest name is Diana Deborah, and her podcast is called- Season of Stuck, which I love that title.

Jean: Yeah. Me too, because it it definitely points to the fact that it’s not forever, that it’s just this, this point in time.

Alison: And the times I felt stuck, I have felt on top of it. I beat myself up. Do you know, like I go, what’s wrong with you?

Jean: Oh, yeah.

Alison: Get get going…Like-.

Jean: Right.

Alison: Pick up, you know, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. What’s the problem? And so I really hope that when we talk with her, we can address some of those things.

Jean: Yeah. I can’t wait to hear her. And, um, I know she’s going to have some wonderful tips to help us feel unstuck and not feel bad about being in a time of stuckness.

Alison: Exactly. Well, here she is. Here’s Deanna.

Deanna: Hi. It is so wonderful to meet you both. I’m Deanna.

Alison: Hi. I’m Allison.

Jean: I’m Jean.

Deanna: Jean. So nice to meet you both. How’s your day going?

Alison: It’s great.

Jean: It’s very nice. I’ve been, uh, od’ing on your your podcast. Mhm. I’ve had, uh, yesterday, the day before and this morning. So I’m like…. And now just hearing your voice I’m like wow she’s actually here now.

Alison: It’s so wonderful. It’s such a, it’s such a wonderful time to meet you with everything going on.

Deanna: Mhm. Yes. I am so happy to connect. And I have to tell you I’ve also listened to your podcast and I love it. And the last question that you ask about the cake versus the pie, this is actually like a very relevant, controversial question for me as a baker. So I’m very excited to share my perspective.

Alison: Excellent. Okay, great. Let’s just go there.

Deanna: Oh, I could do a whole episode about pie if that’s the direction that you want to go.

Jean: So that’s so interesting because I feel like I know a lot about you, and yet, yet I don’t. I didn’t even know that you’re a baker, so, um.

Deanna:  that was my Covid hobby that I picked up. And it’s become like a true love. And so I binge podcasts and bake, which is kind of like my go to now when I’m feeling stressed.

Alison: Oh that’s excellent.

Deanna: And where are you both based.

Alison: In Los Angeles?

Alison: Where are you?

Deanna: Uh, so I’m in the Pacific Northwest. I’m about an hour east of Portland, Oregon, in the Columbia River Gorge. But I lived in LA for almost a decade. Um, how are you? With everything that’s been going on, it’s such a hard time.

Alison: We are fine, but- but, you know, we knew a lot of people that went through that…

Jean: and that were affected by the fires. Um, we were not directly affected. But as Alison said, we we knew people that actually had to evacuate, that lost their homes.

Alison: Yeah.

Jean: And, um, and now I just thinking that they have to recreate their lives.  In such a dramatic way. Um.

Deanna: It’s, it’s so much more than just stuff or just a house. Like when you think about our home is our respite from the world. It’s where we make our memories like it. All of the sentimental value. And to have that, it’s just so scary. And I’m sending so much love to the city. It was very surreal seeing the places that, you know, I spent almost a decade. Um, but the city is full of incredible people who are resilient and wonderful, and I know that you guys are going to support each other through it.

Alison: Yeah. It’s been you know, I think that’s the thing a lot of people I talk to are tired and feel tired and I think feel stuck. You know… Are you are you seeing that a lot more in your, your the what you’re hearing in your podcast? Like, have we always been this sort of stuck or is this new to this climate of the world?

Deanna: So I think that individual stuckness has always been the case. We all come to periods in our life where who we used to be or the life we used to have doesn’t really fit anymore, but who we are going to be and the life we’re stepping into hasn’t fully emerged yet. So I think that kind of inertia has always existed, existed, but there is certainly a very heavy kind of stuckness that is existing in the world today, just with there is so much going on. There is so much, you know, divide, there’s natural disasters there. There’s just a lot of collective heaviness. So I think as a collective, this point in history for many is one of the most stuck that we’ve experienced in our lifetimes.

Jean: Well, well, it’s so apropos that your podcast is all about stuckness and getting unstuck. Yeah. And something that came to me and I was sharing a little bit with Alison is, is that I what I, one of the things I love, what you’re doing, um, is breaking the connotation the The negative connotation around Stuck, and it’s nothing to feel bad about or shameful or what’s wrong with you? Or….

Deanna: I mean, I spent my entire life feeling like these seasons of stuck that I experienced and I’ve experienced many were a personal failing, that there was something inherently wrong with me, that I kept finding myself facing this experience of stuck. And it wasn’t until a few years ago when I started finally talking about it, that that experience was mirrored back by every single person that I talked to, like every single person has experienced stuckness. And so my hope is that through the podcast, I can reach the people who are like I was, who think that there’s something wrong with them, or that they’re failing, or they’re feeling ashamed and kind of normalize the experience and just say, hey, like, this isn’t a you problem. It is a human problem, and there are ways to navigate it and move through it.

Alison: So could you define for our audience your definition? I think you did just a second ago, but the full definition of what it is to be stuck?

Deanna: Yes. So the definition that I use, um, for stuckness is this idea that who we used to be, the things that we used to do, the life that we used to live, no longer feels like a fit. It’s not working anymore. But the next phase, this next iteration of ourselves and our lives doesn’t feel clear yet. So you know that you don’t want to be where you are, but you don’t really know how to move forward, and you don’t even really know what you would want to move forward to, even if you could. So there’s this sense of, you know, being stuck in place. You can’t go backward. You can’t go forward. Um, that can feel really, really uncomfortable for a lot of people.

Alison: And that can be in anything that can be work relationships, living arrangements.

Deanna: Personal growth, personal growth, journey, um, you know, career direction, um, the way that you view and relate to yourself, like there are so many different ways and places that you can experience stuckness. And I know because I’ve experienced them all, probably twice. Um, so it, um, yeah, it’s something that from the conversations that I’ve had both on the podcast and outside of the podcast, um, it’s an experience that people have often. And once you navigate stuckness in one area of your life, there’s a pretty good chance that another area you’re going to feel stuck in the not too distant future. So I think it’s really important to understand what is happening when we’re stuck, really know to our core that it doesn’t mean that there’s anything wrong with us or wrong with our life. It’s just a catalyst. I’d like to say stuck is a step and it’s not a comfortable step. It’s not a fun step, but it is an essential step because the discomfort that comes with stuckness is what ultimately catapults you towards change. You become so uncomfortable with where you are that the uncomfortable feeling of the unknown, or not knowing what the future looks like, it’s just outweighed, and you’re forced to take a step forward. So I found both personally and in the conversations that I’ve had, that stuckness virtually always precedes a period of serious growth.

Alison: Wow.

Jean: Yeah. It’s wonderful that you that you give voice to that.

Alison: Yes.

Jean: And because so many of us feel, um, like we’re a loser when when, you know, we’re  not in the flow of life or feeling the way we would like to. Yeah. Can you give us a short background to your story? Um, just because I know our viewers would just like to know you.

Alison: How did you start that?

Deanna: Of course. I love a good origin story. Um, so my name is Deanna debara. Um. And I am a writer. I’ve been a professional writer for, uh, the last decade. Um, and I am also a person that has felt stuck a lot, like, a lot, a lot. Um, you know, as I mentioned earlier, I have been stuck in pretty much every way in place that a person could feel stuck. And those experiences always were, you know, kind of coated in shame for me. Like, it felt like I wasn’t good enough. And that is why I kept finding myself in these stuck places, in my relationships, in my relationship to myself and my career, all these different places. Um, and about two years ago, I was going through a major, major period of stuckness as a writer. Uh. I work in an industry that is rapidly changing in the face of AI and the economy, and this business that I had spent almost a decade building and that I really loved, um, wasn’t working anymore. But I didn’t know what I was going to do next. So I was stuck in this place for months. And eventually I got so stuck that I started doing two things. Number one, I started doing research to understand what was actually happening when I was experiencing these periods of inertia. And then I also opened up and I started having conversations. And through those processes, I learned that stuck is a foundational, universal human experience. It’s not a shortcoming. It’s something that we all go through. And there was power in hearing other people’s stories that mirrored that experience for me. It felt really connected and it helped to remove that kind of veil of shame. And so as I was having these conversations, I had a little bit of a light bulb moment and I was like, this could be a really interesting thing to explore in a podcast and to hopefully remove that stigma that we can attach to ourselves and normalize this experience that we all go through and work through the stuckness together.

Alison: When you did your research, um, what did you find about moments of stuckness? What was something that really you went, ah, like an aha moment?

Deanna: One of the biggest revelations through my research was that, like, I had always looked at stuckness as a mental experience, right? Like it was something that was happening in my head and through my research, and specifically, there’s a book called The Science of Stuck by Britt Frank, who is a therapist and just all around brilliant. Um, and it was through that book specifically that I learned that stuck is actually a nervous system problem. Like, there are physiological things that are happening when you feel stuck that are driving that inertia. It’s you’re essentially in a freeze state. So even if you want to take those steps forward, your nervous system feels so overwhelmed, you know, by the fear and the unknown and not knowing which direction to go, that it can be almost impossible to motivate your body. So in order to get unstuck, it’s not just about thinking, what do I want next? Which direction do I want to go? There’s actually a component of regulating your nervous system and showing your nervous system that it is safe to change and safe to move forward. Um, and that was absolutely not the way that I thought about stuckness prior to this research. So that was a huge oh, I’m trying to think my way out of a problem that exists in my body.

Alison: Right. So it’s like being hungry and trying to think about food.

Deanna: Exactly. Like if you’re hungry, I could think about what different types of food I want. I could think about going to the store. I can think about cooking a meal, but none of those things are going to deal with the hunger. If I want to address the hunger, I have to eat right?

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: Yeah. I didn’t know that.

Deanna: Mhm.

Jean: And you mentioned I don’t know where I heard you, but you mentioned that, that moving the energy of stuckness is not a mental thing. It’s a more, it’s a more body type movement. Can you talk about that a little bit.

Deanna: Yeah. So again with the nervous system there are multiple states that the nervous system could be in in any time. I’ve heard you heard of I’m sure you’ve heard of Fight or Flight. There’s also freeze. There’s also fawn and stuckness is associated with a freeze state. So in order to move that energy, you have to address what’s happening in your nervous system. And for many people, the best way to regulate your nervous system is through movement. You know, it actually will create the changes, like in your physiological response to work out that energy, release it, and shift your nervous system to a state where you’re more able to make change. It’s not a silver bullet in the sense of, oh, I’m going to go for a run, and then I’m unstuck. But if you’re feeling in a stuck place and you’re trying to make these changes, doing something like going for a run can help release all of those endorphins and those feel good neurotransmitters that, when you’re done, will put you in a better place to start making those changes.

Alison: You know, I was I’ve been thinking so much about being stuck…. Since we’re interviewing you, and it’s a very interesting topic for me because I’m wondering how much is stuckness attributed like to we’re living in such a world of social media now that I feel that externally I’m being told something and I feel like sometimes, just for me, you’re too old, it’s too late. It’s whatever. Do you do you think that plays into it at all in this world?

Deanna: Oh my gosh. I mean, how could it not? You know, we are constantly bombarded and, you know, this is the foundation of the advertising industry, right? Like we are bombarded with messaging that we are somehow not enough. Right. And then the solution is to buy this cream or take this vacation or whatever to make us more enough. Um, and not only do we have that from traditional marketing and advertising, social media has created this environment where we are constantly exposed to what I like to call, other people’s highlight reels, right? It’s this like very curated, like example of their life. And then we compare our full movie with all of the mundane moments and all of the challenges and all of the insecurities, and we find ourselves lacking, and we often can feel as though there’s no way to live up to that ideal. And that can absolutely make us feel stuck.

Jean: And, you know, for me, at the same time, I also notice that the social expectations are are being released. Like, you know, more women are going going natural. Um, people aren’t like our dads are no longer, uh, holding a job for 40 years. You know, people are moving and moving around and, and everything with, um, just people’s sexual identity. So I think at the same time that’s happening too.

Deanna: Absolutely. And I think that the impact of social media absolutely depends on how you use it. Right. If you curate your feed with women who are leaning into midlife and celebrating their natural beauty, or people who are talking about their experiences of being their authentic selves or even feel good things, like, I follow about a million dog accounts on Instagram, and it’s just so when I log in, instead of feeling like I’m bombarded with this messaging that makes me feel not great about myself and therefore stuck. I am treated to something that makes me feel happy or  connected. And it’s not to say that I am not also exposed to those other things, but I think if you use social media strategically and intentionally, it can be a tool to help you get unstuck. So it’s like one of those kind of catch 22. Depending on how you use it. Social media can absolutely contribute to feelings of stuckness, but if you use it intentionally, it can also be a force to help you build self esteem, move forward, get unstuck.

Jean: Mhm.

Alison: Do you you’ve talked to so many great people. Is there a story um that has really, I mean stuck out to you? I know it’s a weird way to put it, but is there a story…. I didn’t mean it like that, but is there a story that you can kind of reference for us?

Deanna: Absolutely. So I have had the absolute pleasure of interviewing some of the smartest, most interesting people who are making such incredible contributions to the world. It really is an honor. Um, and so many of their stories stick out as being helpful or interesting. I think that one of the conversations that for me, had one of the most lasting impacts, um, I had an author on the podcast, her name is Anna Goldfarb, and she wrote a book called Modern Friendship. She was the New York Times friendship correspondent for many, many years. Um, and we had a conversation about how we can get stuck in our friendships and specifically adult friendships today in this culture. And like what we can do to support those relationships and get unstuck. Um, and she had so many helpful tidbits, right? Because we’re all busy, we all are pulled in lots of different directions. So many of us work from home. We have families, we have partners, we have children. All of these things. It can be really hard to prioritize friendships, but the benefit of friendships is so well documented, and having a network of people who you feel truly connected to, who you show up for and who show up for you, can make you healthier, happier. All sorts of good stuff. Um, and one of the things that she said to me that really, really stuck out as helpful and that I have carried into my own relationships, is that affection is not enough to keep a friendship moving forward.

Deanna: If you want your friendships to flourish, there has to be a strong about. And so what she meant by that is, if I have a friend that I love, right? A friend that I used to work with who I think is wonderful. Um, that’s not enough to sustain the friendship, right? There needs to be a core external thing that binds us together, that almost acts as like the framework of the friendship that we can keep coming back to. Um, So my example that I have experienced in my life recently. So I as a way to help with stuckness, I started dancing as an adult a couple years ago. Um, and it has become not only an incredible way to like exercise and move through stuckness and be in my body, but also this like incredible community of women that have just become this huge support system. And it’s like for all of us, dance is our why, right? That is the thing that brings us together, that allows us to spend time together every week that like, gives us something to bond over. And then it’s from that, about, that our friendships are able to flourish, we become closer, we start doing other things together. But it was like the hub, right? It was the hub that gave us the frequency of contact, the commonality of like something that we have in common, um, which are kind of the key components of friendship.

Deanna: If you’re going to have a strong friendship, you need to see your friends, you need to have something in common. And so this about which for me was dance is what has helped me get unstuck in my friendships and like make sure that they are a foundational part of my life. And that about can be anything, right? It can be something with an individual friend. Like I feel stuck. Me and my friend are just not really connecting. We haven’t made time for each other. Like what’s a hobby that we both enjoy, that we can use as an anchor in our relationship? Maybe we go to yoga together once a week. Maybe we start exploring crafts. Like maybe we go to the theater or do a book club. Like whatever it is that about is what keeps friendships moving forward and prevents them from getting into a stuck place. And I feel like that was just it was like a mind blowing thing. And I have applied it to lots of different friendships, friends that I had maybe lost contact with, friendships that I want to feel closer. And it has been incredible like it. Absolutely. Creating this strong about as an anchor for my friendships has made them all stronger. And for that, I am eternally grateful.

Alison: Can you tell me what kind of dance?

Deanna: Yes. So I go to a local dance studio, and there are a few different classes that I take. So twice a week we do dance fitness, uh, and then once a week, I also take a hip hop and jazz choreography class. Um, and it’s it’s so fun. And here’s the thing. I am not a, like, good dancer by any stretch of the imagination, but what dance has helped me with in terms of stuckness? Yes, there is the being in my body and like helping helping me move through actual experiences of stuckness, regulating my nervous system. But there’s also this other gift that it’s given me, um, which is not exclusive to dance, but for a long time, and in particular in my adult life, I was stuck in the idea that in order to do something, I had to be good at it. It had to look good to other people. It had to feel like an achievement that somehow, like a cap in my feather or a feather in my cap. And if I wasn’t good at it, then I should just move on and find something that I’m good at. But, committing to dance, you know, 3 to 4 times a week has given me this gift of like, the only reason that I dance is for joy. I’m not good at it. I’m not going to, you know, be a professional dancer. I’m not trying to show off for anyone else. It just it just gives me, like, a deep sense of joy. And it’s fun and I love it. And so I’m no longer stuck in that idea that the only worthwhile activities to do are activities that I’m good at. And that has unlocked so much for me where it’s like, now I’m like, oh, I’m going to try pottery or I’m going to take this painting class. And it’s not about the output, it’s about how I feel when I’m doing the activity.

Jean: Yeah, that’s great…Well, Alison, here.

Alison: We’re laughing and nudging each other because I started tap.

Deanna: Oh my gosh. Tell me, do you love it?

Alison: I’m 65. It was 65 when I started. And I have to tell you, it’s a riot. And I loved it. I couldn’t do it because I hurt my foot. But I’m going to go back. I did it for a year. And then when that stopped, I started taking pottery. And I make the most misshapen bowls in the world. But I have to tell you what you’re saying, um, my job was always about pleasing others. That’s how, that’s how I work worked. And, um, here I go…. Wow, this is really misshapen. How fantastic. Because there’s no consequence. There’s no… it’s just fun to do. And I don’t even know… Like, I think sometimes women don’t know what they enjoy.

Deanna: Mhm.

Alison: You know?

Deanna: Well we’re so socialized to put other people’s needs in front of our own. Right. Like that is a message that we get both, you know, explicitly and implicitly for the majority of our lives. And when you’re juggling the demands of the world and you know other people’s expectations of you, it can be hard to find the time and the energy to foster things that feel like authentic, authentically you. Like you really love, you know, um, and there’s I think the thing that was challenging for me to get over and I’m curious if you had the same experience, was I was so used to putting other people’s needs above my own that I, I got the message that taking care of my own needs and pursuing things that I enjoyed was selfish. Like, oh, like, you know, who am I to be putting all of this time to this activity that helps no one but me, you know?

Alison: Yes. Very much. And, um, someone asked me, well, you know, the kids, the kids are grown. It’s me and my husband now in the house. And someone said, well, so what do you like to do? And I was like, wow, I like to take care of my kids and I like to clean the house. And I thought, those aren’t things that you should be like…. They’re fine, they’re wonderful…. But like, for me and Jean and I talked about this, this a lot that we where am I in this mix, because I kind of lost myself. And you are so right, it does feel selfish, you know.  I’ll say to my husband, I’m going to pottery. And he goes, great, go. But I feel like he’s actually thinking, again.

Deanna: Mhm.

Alison: but he’s not.

Deanna: Mhm.

Alison: He’s a great guy, and… But it’s there.

Deanna: Well, no one ever judges us as harshly as we judge ourselves, right? So even if nobody else is telling you that message, it can still be hard to get over that internalized shame or feeling of being, you know, selfish. But how special is it that you now get to go out and experience these things and find out what you enjoy at this stage in your life? It’s almost like a rediscovery process, and certainly I would imagine it helps to deal with any feelings of stuckness, because you’re constantly exposing yourself to new things and finding new joys.

Alison: Yeah yeah yeah yeah. When you’re talking about friendships and being stuck, are there some friendships that then in that moment you let go of?

Deanna: Mhm. So that was actually another um revelation that I had following that episode. So I can be a somewhat black and white thinker, like something is or something isn’t. I am friends with someone or I am not friends with someone. And Anna really pointed out that, the nature of adulthood, and in particular in today’s society, which is like so busy and, you know, being pulled in so many different directions…. Friendships will ebb and flow, right? So you might lose friends. Like you might lose touch with a friend and think, okay, well, I’m not friends with that person anymore. I’ve let that friendship go. But then ten years down the line, a strong about emerges, that brings you back together. Maybe you moved to the same neighborhood, and you have children that are the same age, and then you connect and it’s like you pick back up where the friendship left off. So I really appreciated, um, that idea that, like, just because you’re not in super close contact with a friend at any given moment, it doesn’t mean that the friendship is over. That there’s, like, natural, you know, kind of up and down, connected, not connected. And, you know, we don’t have to assign meaning to that. Like, obviously there’s reasons that friendships end definitively, but this idea of just losing touch or, you know, not having availability for each other, that there is always the opportunity for those friendships to reemerge in the future if you leave the door open.

Alison: Okay, I love that.

Jean: That’s beautiful.

Alison: Yeah.

Jean: Can you talk a little bit more about gratitude? Well, not more…. because we haven’t even spoken about it, but, um, I heard you talk about gratitude and how you use that to get unstuck. And it seems a little contrary, but I thought what you know, you said was really beautiful. Yeah.

Deanna: Um. I would love to talk about gratitude. This, I think, is one of the most important tools in my tool belt that has had the most profound impact on my life. Um, so I am 40 now. Um, When I was 25, I went into recovery from a very serious drinking problem. I drank very problematically from 19 to 25. So 15 years ago, um, and when I first stopped drinking, I felt so lost, like my life was in shambles. I had tension in my relationships. I didn’t know where I was going with my career, like it was the most stuck, to this day, that I have ever been in my life. And in that moment in time, as a way to anchor myself and not get overwhelmed by this feeling of stuckness, of like, where’s my life going? What am I going to do? How do I fix this? Um, I started doing gratitude journaling, so I started writing down three things that I’m grateful for every day. And in the beginning, you know, it was very small things because my life was such a mess. You know, it’s like I’m grateful that I, you know, got out of bed when my alarm went off or I’m grateful that I got to sit in the sun. Whatever the case may be. But that practice forced me to look at the good that was there that I wasn’t seeing before. I was so caught up in all of the challenges and the negative feelings and the fear about how to navigate this period of my life.

Deanna: But doing that gratitude practice every day was like a concrete reminder that there is good here. And if you keep moving forward, there will be more good. And as I evolved and got further and further from my last drink, those items on my gratitude list expanded, you know. Then it was I’m grateful that I landed this new job. I’m grateful that someone told me I was a good friend today. Like, I’m grateful that I got to go on this vacation. Whatever the case may be, it was like I could see the ways in which my life was changing and the more gratitude that I showed for that, like the happier that I felt in those changes. And even today, you know, like, I make it a point to express gratitude in one way or another every day. I am like, kind of notorious in my group of friends for just sending random text messages of like, hey, this is what I love and appreciate about you. Thank you for being my friend. Um, and that has become like a foundational part of my life. And in the moments when I’m feeling stuck, just like I was when I stopped drinking. If I find myself in that place, focusing on what there is to be grateful for will propel me forward and towards feeling unstuck every time.

Jean: Yeah…I love that, Deanna.

Alison: that’s So moving.

Deanna: Um, it’s just it’s a really powerful practice. And, you know, it can seem cliche, but like, sometimes cliches are true. Like gratitude just works. And even in your darkest, most stuck moments, if you can tap into that gratitude, it will show a light at the end of the tunnel. It will move you forward and as you continue to express it, it like becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. There will be more and more to be grateful for.

Jean: Right – yeah.

Alison: That’s beautiful. Thank you for sharing that and congratulations on your journey.

Deanna: Thank you. I just a couple of weeks ago celebrated 15 years without a drink.

Alison: That’s beautiful.

Jean: Wonderful.

Alison: That’s beautiful. My husband and I have done 30 years without a drink. And I have to say it, it has… It’s a it’s a was a beautiful release of something that I never thought would go away.

Deanna: Mhm. Oh congratulations on that. That is incredible. And you’re right, like what I found when I stopped drinking. Was that it was occupying so much of my time and head space in life that when I stopped, it created this, like pocket, this space for all of these beautiful things to come in. And like,  speaking of gratitude, like I couldn’t be any more grateful that I made that decision. And, you know, it set me on a trajectory towards a life that, you know, at the time, I, I couldn’t dream of. So I’m very grateful.

Alison: And I wanted to say something about the title of your podcast,  Season Of Stuck, because the season changes and passes.

Deanna: Mhm.

Alison: As opposed to calling it like I’m stuck or we’re all stuck or here’s stuck. This season of stuck is so wonderful and.

Jean:  and hopeful.

Deanna: Thank you. Thank you. That is certainly what I was going for. Um, another thing that I say is that, you know, stuckness is a step, as I mentioned before, but it’s not a permanent one– like your stuck spot isn’t your forever spot. You will, the seasons will change. You know, you will go from winter to spring. Um, as long as you continue moving forward.

Alison: Right. It’s a step, not a landing.

Deanna: Exactly 100%. And it’s generally like a step in the right direction. Right? It can be so discouraging or, you know, uncomfortable to feel like, my life right now is like, there’s something that’s not right…. This career isn’t right for me. I feel like my relationship isn’t working. Like I have a really negative self view of myself. And that’s not how I want to live my life. Like, that can be really hard. But when you address those things and step into the next version of yourself and your life, it’s like a shedding of things that no longer work for you, which again creates space for things that will.

Jean: Yeah. That’s That it’s so empowering in in a way, also that you say that, and you you mentioned on someone else’s podcast to give yourself permission to change.

Deanna: Mhm.

Jean: Right. You said that and I was like wow, that’s so true. You know that, we can actually take the stuckness that we’re in and go, okay something’s going to change.  And I don’t know what that is but I, I know that I’m, I’m now in an energy of change and I give myself permission to do that.

Deanna: And that permission is so liberating. Right. We get so stuck thinking that we have to be who we were yesterday or a year ago, but at any given time, we can give ourselves permission to change and move in a new direction. And maybe that direction doesn’t work and you give your permission to change to another direction. But as but as long as you allow yourself the space to change, you will continually be changing in a way that feels more and more authentic to you.

Jean: Right.

Alison: Do you like yourself as much as you like pie?

Deanna: Oh, I, I gotta say, I have been doing a lot of work on myself, so I am, I’m feeling really good about myself. But pie will always be the crown in my life.

Alison: For a very. You’re very self connected and you’re really a joy to talk to.

Jean: Yeah,

Deanna: Well, you were both such a joy to talk to. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate you having me on, and this was such a wonderful conversation.

Alison: Before you go, what do you think inside wink means?

Deanna: Mhm. So when I hear inside wink, what I think of,  is almost like a nod to my internal self, like winking and just being like, hey, it’s all going to be okay. So kind of a of a self-compassion is what comes up for me when I hear inside wink.

Alison: I love that.

Jean: Me too.

Alison: Do you want to ask the big one that we waited for the whole time?

Jean: Well, I sort of know her answer, but I want to have her embellish on her answer. Okay, Deanna, do you like cake, pie or ice cream?

Deanna: Mhm. Okay, so I am a pie girl through and through. It is my favorite dessert to eat and it’s also my biggest baking challenge. I have been trying to perfect a pie crust recipe for like four years now. And I’m still not quite there. So it’s this joy to eat and also this challenge that propels me forward in my baking life. So from all angles. Pie pie pie.

Alison: I love that. What flavor?

Deanna: Ooh. Oh, that’s like asking me to pick my favorite child. Um, I the last pie that I made, which was one of the best that I’ve ever made, was banana cream pie. I made it for Christmas.

Alison: Oh my God.

Jean: I have to say for those bakers out there that are listening. And I too love to bake.  That phrase, um, oh, it’s as easy as pie…. Pie is not easy to make.

Deanna: No.

Jean: that is such  a lie.

Deanna: It is so fickle. Getting the crust right and like, making sure that your fat stays cold and all these things. No, it should be, like, as ridiculously difficult as pie would be, the more accurate idiom.

Jean: Much, much better.

Alison: So next podcast…As Ridiculously difficult as pie.

Deanna: Oh, what a title.

Jean: Yeah, it’s it’s like when someone says, oh, you eat as much as a bird. Well, a bird eats, like, twice its size relative to it’s body.

Deanna: So there are some terms, there are some turns of phrases that just don’t make sense to me. And tying to your question, the phrase you want to have your cake and eat it too. What other purpose is there for cake than to eat it? Like? Do I want to look at it? Do I want to admire it like, no, I want to eat it. Of course I do.

Alison: It’s right.

Jean: It’s so true.

Alison: Oh my gosh, you cracked me up.  Thank you.

Jean: You are so great.. You’re just what the doctor ordered. And, um. And I thank you so much for for being on our show. And, you know…

Alison: Many congratulations on so many things. It’s a beautiful, beautiful podcast.

Jean: Yeah.

Deanna: Thank you both so, so much. I cannot tell you how much that means to me. It has been a joy to be here. I loved chatting with you. Um, and thank you again for for having me on.

Jean: Yes. Thanks. Deanna.

Deanna: You have a beautiful day.

Alison: Bye.

Jean: Bye.

Jean: That was great.

Alison: Oh, she was excellent, and she got us so inspired that Jean and I are now going to do archery.

Jean: To help us get unstuck.

Alison: That’s right. To keep us, to keep us having an about.

Jean: Yeah, right.

Jean: And, you know, I was thinking, um, and I didn’t address this with her, but, you know, I think it’s when we’re stuck that, it’s just an opportunity to kind of reassess our lives deeply and see where where can we, uh, change it up a bit because we…. Part of another word for change is creation, and we’re always creating. So, um, I think those moments for myself anyway, when I felt stuck, it is a time of, um, inter reflection of my own life.

Alison: That’s that’s that’s wonderful. I think sometimes that I’ve been stuck. I’ve felt,  I felt blameful of myself. But I like that that she normalized it for me.

Jean: Yeah. exactly..

Alison: And that she’s like, look, it’s just a part of life and and that you can’t necessarily think your way out of it. I thought that was a great insight.

Jean: Yes. Really, really powerful. And so when you get a moment, check out her podcast. It’s absolutely wonderful.

Alison: Season of stuck.

Jean: Season of stuck…Yeah.

Alison: That’s right. Thank you so much. Have a wonderful unstuck day. Okay. We’ll talk to you later.

Jean: Bye.