Podcast Episode 63: Julie Kramer

Alison : Okay. Here we are.

Jean : Here we are. Back in my closet.

Alison : That’s right. I love it here. I’m going to live here. And you’re not even going to know, okay?

Jean : And you’re doing your home right now.

Alison : Yes. We’re redoing our home. A little bits and pieces of our house that needed to be done because our sink cracked in a hole. And who wants to live with that? Not me.

Jean : It’s going to be beautiful.

Alison : It’s going to be so lovely. And I realize, my child Em, was saying, mom, you’re veering towards cool colors and the house has warm colors. And I thought, I think Emma is correct. So that was a very interesting talk with that fantastic person. Um, but it’s been wonderful. And every day is a little like Christmas.

Jean : That’s great.

Alison : You’re like, oh look, a faucet came, you know? But it’s fun and it’s nice to it’s nice to even just like, you know, some of the stuff is just paint being done, which is fantastic.

Jean : And it’s a great time to, uh, spruce up your home. It’s springtime. There’s going to be a feeling of newness and beautiful colors, so I know it’s going to be gorgeous.

Alison : I can’t wait for you to see it all. So today…

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : I’m excited.

Jean : I am too. You know, we’ve never interviewed a shaman.

Alison : No.

Jean : Yes.

Alison : And I’m not. I personally am not fully aware, of until now when I was reading on it, what a shaman was? And, um, yeah, I think it’s going to be very interesting. Her name is Julie Kramer, and she is just she’s a shamanic healer.

Jean : She also teaches people how to become shamanic healers.

Alison : Right.

Jean : And, um, I thought she, like her wife, speaks, speaks so beautifully. Listening to her is really, um, beautiful. She’s got a gorgeous command of the English language, and she pronounces everything so beautifully. Well, actually, my husband Alex would have been very impressed with with how Julie speaks. But anyway….

Alison : I think we speak very much like that.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : But aside from how wonderfully she sounds vocally, she’s very I think it’s going to be very, very interesting to speak to someone that that does this as, um, a calling.

Jean : Yeah. And here again, is that being a bridge between the physical world and the spirit world. So I’m so looking forward to this.

Alison : And so here’s Julie.

Julie: Then suddenly there you are. And it’s so delightful.

Alison : It’s so nice to meet you. I’m Allison.

Jean : And I’m Jean.

Julie: Lovely to meet you both. Thank you for inviting me to have this conversation with you today.

Alison : You are so interesting.

Julie: Oh.

Jean : I’ve read and listened about you for the past few days, and, um, I was really looking forward to meeting you, Julie. And, you know, I, I, I don’t know that much about shamanism. And, um, when I think of the word, I think of, um, like South American people from indigenous countries and healing like in that… And now I look at you and, and, um, and I think, wow, that’s so great that you embarked on this path and are teaching people how to become a shaman.

Julie: Thank you. And I think that would be a wonderful topic to explore. Not by any means to direct you, because of course, I understand that it needs to feel organic and alive for you, but simply to say that it’s a topic I’m more than happy to speak on, because I think there there is a common misapprehension, and people often appreciate hearing my perspective on that.

Alison : We would love.

Julie: Yeah.

Alison : Yeah, but what is what is a shaman and what is what is um, shamanic practices. And then specifically you’re, you’re a you’re a healer.

Julie: Yes. Oh. Are we actually starting our conversation?

Alison : Welcome to us.

Julie: Oh, I apologize. Normally there’s, you know, the lighting check and the sound check.

Alison : And we’re..

Jean : we’re Right out the gate and sort of like it fresh and very conversational, almost like we’re, well, we are girl, women friends having a fun conversation. That brings it down to…

Alison : I think you’re used to Tami– being like, you know, because it’s so she’s so wonderful. But for us, it’s just sort of like, hey, hi… You know, let’s do it…so…

Julie:  wonderful.

Julie: Well, then why don’t I begin by answering the questions that you’ve posed. And so, Jean, first to acknowledge what you were saying a moment ago, yes… I think people do often associate shamans, shamanic practices, shamanic rituals, and so forth with indigenous peoples and communities, I think worldwide. And so oftentimes that’s a narrower perspective because in actual fact there are many more people practicing shamanism, including those lovely people. And what I would say about that, is that, thankfully, there are still lineages of shamans within indigenous contexts, within specific cultural contexts that remain intact. And how beautiful that that remains the case. May that continue to be the case. And interestingly, of course, many people in recent decades have studied shamans and shamanism within many of those different cultural contexts. And there are certain commonalities that have been found to be true. And therein lies I think the reason that you’re wondering about this, and perhaps the explanation for a person like me. So one of the commonalities that shamans worldwide share is being called by the spirit world. And interestingly, although there are still and may there continue to be indigenous shamans or shamans practicing within a specific cultural context, who perhaps also had living teachers, a grandmother or grandfather or aunt or uncle or mother or father or someone outside of their family, but within their community.

Speaker4: Interestingly, not all shamans currently or historically have had living teachers. And so what shamans actually all have in common universally, whether or not they ever had or will ever have a living teacher is being called by spirit, and that call comes from the spirits directly through a variety of means. And so this is how we often hear about people talking about shamanic initiations or even dark nights of the soul. So in other words, the call from spirit can come through messages, it can come through joyful synchronicities, and it can come through illnesses or diseases that can come through near-death experiences. It can come through trauma. And so I represent those folks out there who didn’t have a mother or father or grandmother or grandfather or community member who recognized my affinity for this spirit world as a young person, necessarily…. But I had, by way of a series of synchronicities, the opportunity to learn how to journey at a relatively young age in my 20s, and I met my helping spirit straight away, and that set me off on this course. And subsequently, I did have the great, good fortune of working with two living teachers, Sandra Ingerman and Betsy Bergstrom. So I’ve had a combination, but not since childhood. That all started to happen for me in my early adulthood.

Alison : That’s that’s beautiful. So for you, when you say a calling. Mhm. Um, can you, can you just tell me what that feels like? It sounds very exciting.

Julie: Well, I will say in my case it was quite subtle. It was at first such a personal sense of homecoming because when I first learned how to journey, which is the means by which I contact the helping spirit. So I talk about entering into natural trance states. So using drumming and rattling, I have my rattle right here. And what science has shown us is that when we expose ourselves to continuous percussion, so rattling or drumming as two examples, our brainwave activity changes and we enter into a natural trance state. So without needing to ingest anything, such as a mind altering substance, I can just pick up my rattle right now and enter into a trance state. So support my consciousness as it shifts from a beta state to an alpha state to a theta state, which is more of an expansive state. When we become more, I would say, perceptually aware. And by that what I mean is we’re perceiving the helping spirits from that state or in that state, but they’re with us all the time. And so it isn’t as though they suddenly appear when we’re in that state, but rather that we become aware of their presence, which we may not always be paying attention to in our day to day lives. And so when I first became introduced to journeying and met my helping spirits, there was such a personal sense of homecoming.

Julie: But it was not at all in my awareness or consciousness that this could become my career. The fact that I’ve made a career out of this has been a delightful surprise to me. That has been very organic over time. But if you had told the young Julie, the young 26 year old Julie, that now at the age of almost 52, I would be talking to the two of you about this work and teaching practitioners and teaching teachers, i would not have believed a word you said. So I think for me it’s been less dramatic. Oh. Pardon me, Jean, I think for me it’s been less dramatic, although certainly there are stories of people through illness, as I said, through trauma, through near-death experiences and so forth. I would say that part of my biographical experience, especially as a child, I think helped me hone my sensitivity and hone my compassion, and those things have helped me immensely in my role. But I wasn’t someone who had a lot of experiences with the spirit world. A lot of dramatic experiences with the spirit world. As a child, it was a little bit more quiet for me.

Alison : Lovely.

Jean : Yeah. That’s so beautiful. And Julie, do you notice, um, you call them your helping guides? I love that term. Can you tap into them? Like, if you’re at a store and you’re… And you’re thinking, oh, I need to get this person or or do you have to do a more ritualistic, um, quest for that or, you know, a process? Yeah.

Julie: Yes. Well, I.

Jean : And just sorry, Julie, and because it’s right on the tip. Have they changed over time? Are your helping guides the same ones that you tuned into early on? Early versus now?

Julie: If I may, I’ll start by answering that question. Some of them are the same as all that time ago. It was in 2000 that I first learned how to journey, and I immediately contacted my helping spirits. So there was an immediate sense of connection, belonging, homecoming, familiarity. I would say, of course, I, I feel in my cosmology I was meeting helping spirits with whom I’ve had affiliations over lifetimes. And so that sense of familiarity was predicated upon our shared history, and many of them have endured. So those I met initially, many of them still remain with me. I’ve met more subsequently, and they are long standing relationships that keep deepening, that keep unfolding, much like a marriage, much like a deep, beloved friendship. You continue to learn things about each other, and you continue to learn things about yourself in relationship with the other. And so I continued to discover things about my helping spirits. It feels as though there’s still an enormous amount to discover, even after, in some cases, 25 years of being in relationship with some of them. In a conscious way, in this lifetime as an adult.

Alison : It might be semantics, but our guardian angels guiding spirits.

Julie: Well, I was going to say I used these terms interchangeably helping spirits, helping guides, guardian angels, although they’re very well, maybe people who consider the term guardian angel to be specific to the presence of angelic beings. I would consider angelic beings to be helping spirits, but they’re their own category. They’re angelic beings. Um, but to me, they could all be included under the broad umbrella of Spirit guides or Spirit Helpers or compassionate helping spirits. I use all of those terms interchangeably, including guardian angels.

Alison : And is it when you say that you met your your your friendly guiding spirit early on? Is it like, um, is it an awareness? Is it do you hear a voice or is it a visual?

Julie: Um.

Alison : What is that? You know.

Julie: Yes. Of course. Yes. So when we rattle or drum and catalyze, if you will, or generate if you will, a trance state. As I mentioned before, our perception widens. So it’s an expanded state of consciousness. And what we become aware of are these subtleties. So I would say that we exist within a multidimensional reality, that reality is far more nuanced and mysterious than just the physical world. What we can see and touch and feel with our physical senses and those subtler pathways of perception open when we’re in a trance state, and then we are able, we begin, pardon me, to be able to perceive what lies in the invisible realms. So with another dimensions or spectrums of reality. And so in a way, this answers both of your questions. I can see you both on the screen and and feel you feel our heart connection and feel your warmth and openness to me and to this topic, and at the same time, with what I would describe as my subtle perceptions, i can perceive my helping spirit. So I have one who’s always to my left and one who’s always to my right, and one who’s always behind me. And I can feel them and see them with what I would describe as my inner sight, which we could also say is clairvoyance.

Julie: So being able to see clearly,  clear seeing or clairvoyance in the dark, if you will, in the invisible realm. So for me, these realities are interpenetrating. So I’m here in my physical body, and my helping spirits are right next to me in their non-physical bodies, but they’re in their forms. And so I can see them. I can feel or sense them. I can hear them when I talk to them and they talk to me. So we dialogue. So it feels probably the simplest way of explaining it would be it feels telepathic, the actual communication, and that would be clairaudience. And so that’s when you’re hearing them speak to you. So it’s the subtle version of the auditory sense, just as clairvoyance is the subtle version of site. So each of the physical senses has that subtle correlate so we can journey into or send our awareness into these other dimensions of reality that have their own landscapes and their own resources, and that are rich and fascinating and endless. And that’s where the helping spirits reside, if you will. And then we can experience them, and they show themselves to us in their forms. And so angelic beings will have wings, and there are animal spirits who are helping spirits. So I have a bear who’s always right behind me, a very tall brown bear who’s always behind me as a protector for me.

Julie: And the two helping spirits. To my left and right are my former brother and father from another lifetime. And so they take those forms, although I would argue that those are costumes they put on for our benefit, just as these forms are the costumes that we’re wearing now. I think our spirits are beyond form and transcend and include all of the forms that we take in our different lifetimes. But in answer to your question, Jean, when I’m out in the world at the grocery store or whatever, I can simply turn my attention towards them and thus perceive them because they’re always there. And so it really depends on where my attention lies. But part of my practice and part of what I teach is what would it be like if we were in a continuous relationship with our helping spirits, if we were in continuous contact with them? So if I’m answering an email instead of the answer coming from just my mind, if you will, or even my heart to check in with the helping spirits and ask, how shall I respond to this? What’s needed here? What’s the message? What’s the response? What should my posture be? How can I support this person? So I involve my helping spirits in even small decisions throughout the day.  I mean, maybe not to the extent that I’m saying. What kind of yogurt should I buy at the grocery store? But Tami and I did once ask my helping spirits about a movie recommendation, because we were trying to decide what movie to go to. And my one of my helping spirits said, what do I look like? Siskel and Ebert. So that was the last time I asked for a movie recommendation. But I do consult with them, and that’s part of what I teach, is what would it be like if we were in constant communication, constant connection? And when we are, we look out. I know you can’t see what I’m seeing, but I’m looking into my garden and I can see the ocean from here. I’m in Vancouver, British Columbia, and everything takes on this quality of aliveness because you’re beginning to experience the spirit that animates all of reality. And so everything starts to take on this quality of radiance and aliveness and intelligence and beauty. And then you walk through the world so differently. Other people begin to take on that luminosity as well. And so everything becomes so wakeful, and that’s a very different way of walking through the world.

Jean : Very much so. That’s so beautiful, julie.

Jean : Can can anyone learn to be a shaman?

Julie: I believe anyone can learn to be in relationship with their helping spirits. I believe literally anyone can. There is no special prerequisite or special gift you need to have. I think it’s wired into our DNA. Even if some of us come from ancestral lineages where there may no longer be intact lineages of shamans or healers or medicine people who work in partnership with the spirit world, all of our ancestors did. And so part of what’s been so beautiful for me has been to meet helping spirits who were my ancestors, who have taught me how they worked at the times when they lived. And of course, we can understand lots of different reasons why certain more esoteric practices might have needed to go underground or be hidden, or why certain lineages came to an end, and with them the wisdom and knowledge that was contained within that lineage. And so part of what I am very interested in is how do we access all of the wisdom from the different lineages that we belong to? Because all of us have either recent or distant ancestors who practiced divination and healing and partnership with the spirit world, which is what shamanism is. And so that’s something that I’m very passionate about. And the beginning point is let’s first learn how to contact our helping spirits. Let’s learn how easy it is. Let’s learn how available and accessible they are. Let’s take this out of the realm of romanticization or sensationalisation. This is available to everyone. That’s why I said a moment ago it’s in all of our DNA, because all of our ancestors had ways of entering into trance state, sometimes with  plant, spirit medicine, pardon me. And sometimes using the means that I’m describing for being in communion with the spirit world. And so to me, that’s alive inside of us.

Julie: And it’s less a question of teaching people as it is helping them remember. So I would say that’s the beginning. And then for me, the term shaman is a spiritual honorific. And I wouldn’t I wouldn’t self-proclaim as a shaman. That’s a term that I feel is bestowed upon one, perhaps by the members of one’s community in recognition of your gifts as a healer and how you’re working in partnership with the spirit world to bring about healing and well-being in the community that you serve. And so that’s classically how that term is held. I love saying I’m a shamanic practitioner or a shamanic healer. I would say equally, I’m a spiritual healer. To me, those terms are also interchangeable. But being called by a spirit to serve as a healer requires its own training. And that’s where people often experience a call of some kind that initiates them into the possibility that there is such a thing as spiritual illness and the remedy spiritual healing. And so I do train people to become shamanic practitioners, and that’s become the focus of my work. It’s been that way since 2012, that I train people to become shamanic practitioners who feel they’ve been called by spirit to offer healing to others. But and I love teaching beginners, and so I also devote a certain amount of my time to teaching basic introductory workshops that are three days long, some in person and some remote to teach anyone how to journey and how to begin to form a relationship with their own helping spirits. Because I just love helping people connect with their helping spirits and recognize their existence and begin to live in partnership with them and in relationship with them. It’s so immensely enriching for people. So I love to do that.

Alison : You have a phrase on your website, “Ennobling the Heart.” And when I when I first saw that, it took my breath away a little bit because I’ve never heard those words together. And I was interested to see, um, I would like to discuss that a little bit with you. What is that? What is that for you?

Julie: Yes. Well, the ennobling of the heart, that turn of phrase, came from my helping spirit to describe what happens in my long term trainings. What I’ve observed happens to my students as they form relationships with their helping spirits, and as they become more clear about who they are and what their gifts are and what the medicine is that they carry, and who the helping spirits are, who are devoted to their wellbeing and to their unfolding and their evolution. And I believe everyone has a purpose in life, and I feel that everyone can become ennobled by way of discovering their purpose and embracing it and sharing their beautiful gifts in the world, whatever those are. And for me, in training practitioners, there’s of course, the aspects of the training that are more practical, skills based. I want to teach certain processes and certain practices that these practitioners will eventually offer their own clients. But I also want to train practitioners who carry this work in the world with integrity and with dignity and with humility. I want to train practitioners to become ennobled. And to me, that speaks to the spiritual evolution that happens when you work with helping spirits who have a quality of consciousness that’s truthfully higher than ours, that we can meet and experience when we journey.

Julie: And that lifts us up, that raises our vibration. And it’s interesting because I’ve never been in one of my own trainings, of course, I only ever have the vantage point of being the facilitator or the teacher, and so I can’t know what it’s like to be on the receiving end of all of these practices and rituals that we do, all of which came from my own teachers, Sandra Ingerman and Betsy Bergstrom, or came from my own helping spirit. So I’m synthesizing what I learned from my teachers, plus sharing what what I would say has been spirit taught, what the helping spirits have taught me directly, but I’ve never been on the receiving end of it, i’m always observing what happens to my students as they go through these processes, and they just become more and more radiant and more and more clear and more and more purposeful and more and more devoted to their path of service. And it’s just so gorgeous to bear witness to. And so calling my work in this path the ennobling of the heart, as I say on my website, this is my love letter to my students.

Alison : Beautiful. Could I ask, though, also, um, when we transition, can we become a guiding spirit?

Julie: Yes, yes. So many of us have ancestors, such as someone you might have known earlier in your life, who has since passed away and who has crossed over who’s now a helping spirit or a guardian angel, if you will. Yes, absolutely. And sometimes it can be a more distant ancestor. So someone you didn’t know in your lifetime, maybe your great great great grandmother, but who still a helping spirit for you. So it can be either or you can have a pet who passed away earlier in your life. I do myself, Tami and I both do. Our beloved cocker spaniel who lived to be almost 17. She’s a helping spirit now for both of us, and so she’s one of our allies that we have in common and that we check in with very often.

Alison : I find that so comforting. Yeah, there’s something comforting about that, that, that there’s, um, that we’re all part of it. And that I could be your helping spirit next time around. Or my my, my kid maybe was my helping spirit a while ago like that’s very moving to me.

Julie: Yes. Well, and I think what you’re speaking to is so important and why I’m so passionate about teaching people how to journey, because we never walk in the world alone again.

Jean : Yeah, yeah.

Julie: And I think we often feel alone in our lives. And of course, post pandemic I think is more of life has become virtual, there’s at once a way in which that’s enabling us to have this conversation and how wonderful, and maybe it couldn’t occur otherwise. And so I’m so grateful and reliant upon technology and appreciative of it. And at the same time, of course, many people report not feeling as connected and feeling more isolated, and that there is more of a sense of dislocation. And the ways in which we’re connecting may not feel quite as meaningful. And so it’s a time when I feel that it’s especially crucial for us to be aware of all of the love and support around us. I mean, I just mentioned three of my helping spirits to my left and right and behind, but I have dozens of helping spirits and to walk in the world with all of that love and care and comfort and especially with loved ones that have passed away. But also, as I said, even with helping spirits that we didn’t share this lifetime with, but that we’ve shared other lifetimes with, there can still be a tremendous relationship and sense of connection. And that’s such an emphasis in my work that we don’t have to be alone. In fact, we’re never alone. Our helping spirits are with us, whether we’re aware of them or not. So imagine if we decided to become aware of them, how much richer our lives would be. They’re there anyway. It’s a resource that we’re that we’re underutilizing. I would say it’s like a bank account you didn’t know that you had. And then you suddenly discover, you know, you’re a millionaire, little did you know, but you are, and it’s so enriching.

Jean : And I think that’s so what we need now. And I think the absence of acknowledging the spirit side of our self is, is really what we’re being asked to bring forth. And, um, and I think trainings like what you’re offering, Julie, are so important so that we as we navigate this very chaotic time, that we know that we have angels and guides and helpers that can, can kind of nudge us and, um, but it takes a little bit of it takes time, you know, like you have to slow down your, your for me anyway, i have to like, slow down my life a little bit and make time for that relationship.

Alison : Mhm.

Julie: Mhm.

Jean : Are you doing any like what are you teaching now. Do you have classes.., are you um. Is that all up in British Columbia or…

Julie: No not not all. Some online. I’m in the midst of leading a series of introductory workshops. So those are three days in length. And there’s one coming up in May in British Columbia. There’s one in June in Colorado. Let’s see, there’s one in June in Ontario, Canada. And then in July I’m teaching one virtually. And I have people who join from all over the United States and Canada, from Europe. And some people, bless them, try to join from the Southern hemisphere, although it’s very tricky in terms of the time difference. Yeah. But I am starting a new training program in September. So these introductory workshops are. Stand alone workshops for total beginners. So no prerequisite. Anybody and everybody is welcome. And so they they are complete unto themselves. And they also serve as the prerequisite for my year long program, which starts in September. And that’s a blended learning program. So combining two in-person retreats with a virtual curriculum in between. And those two retreats do happen up here in British Columbia, although I have students from all over, but that model works well even for people who live further afield, because you come to British Columbia at the start of the program and then you come at the end, and it’s a year long program, and then everything in between is virtual, and we meet very regularly in between, and it’s a very, very structured program. So that’s my level one program for people who feel called to work with spirits in order to offer healing in their communities. So that’s the practitioner training program level one.

Alison : That’s great. Can we talk a little bit about the healing? You know, so many times I feel inundated by, you know, um, symptoms being taken care of, like sort of reactionary medicine or Western medicine and what, what what is your take on that and what do you do differently or the same?

Julie: Um, yes. So I would say that the type of healing work that I practice and teach is never intended to be a substitute for Western medicine or psychiatric medicine or any other healing modality, but rather to complement those other healing modalities. And interestingly, whenever we just look through one lens, we often miss things. And so if I were just looking at a symptom or a cluster of symptoms through the lens of Western medicine, i might miss things. I might miss, for example, psychological issues if I’m not also looking through a psychological lens. Similarly with spiritual healing, if you’re only looking through that lens, you very well may find things, no question, but you might also miss things. And so what I’m interested in is helping this work become restored as a credible healing modality that functions alongside all of the other healing modalities that we’re used to, including the ones that, you know, might have been a little bit less mainstream 30 years ago, like acupuncture or energy medicine, but have now become quite commonplace…. Like, it’s not that uncommon for someone to say, I’m dealing with a Covid diagnosis and I’m working with my medical doctor, but I’m also getting acupuncture and I’m also seeing my energy medicine healer.

Julie: You know, that’s quite common nowadays. So in my ideal world it would become just as normal for someone to say, and I’m working with a shamanic practitioner. And so what we do is explore the spiritual causes of illness and or the possibility that spiritual disharmonies or imbalances can exacerbate illnesses. And this is where sometimes, if we’re looking through the lens of Western medicine or we’re looking through the lens of psychology or psychiatry, again, we may find things, but are we getting to the root of it? And oftentimes people end up in my office or in the offices of my students because they’ve tried everything else. And lo and behold, but there’s something in the way of a spiritual imbalance or illness that was never detected simply because they weren’t looking through that lens, and now there’s a reason for some of or maybe all of what they’ve been experiencing. And so what that means is that we’re working directly with the helping spirits to actually diagnose the presence of spiritual illness. And so shall I give an example, because I realize that’s a little abstract and I want to make it more practical?

Alison : I’ve never heard that term spiritual spiritual illness.

Julie: Mhm. Yeah. So I, I use the terms spiritual illness or shamanic illness interchangeably. What they both point to is are there causes of illness that are spiritual in nature and that can result in or contribute to or exacerbate symptoms, physical symptoms, emotional or psychological symptoms? And yes, I understand that in and of itself can be quite a paradigm shift for people. But I think it also makes a lot of intuitive sense. Shall I give you an example?

Alison : Okay.

Julie: So let’s see what example shall I give? Well this is the example that’s coming up. So I’m going to follow that. So a common form of spiritual illness is possession illness. And that would be if someone, let’s say, there are very many different possible scenarios in which this can take place, but a common one, let’s say that a young father passes away while his children are still very young. And because of his profound love for his children, because of his concern for their well-being, because of his desire to protect them and care for them at the time of his death, he doesn’t cross over successfully. I would say he doesn’t go to the Light. He stays here and he does so out of love and devotion for his children and becomes attached to one of his children. Now, let’s say that he was dying from a disease process that unfolded gradually over time. Believe it or not, I know this can sound quite startling, but that person that he becomes attached to, not necessarily right away, but in the fullness of time, could actually begin to develop some of the same symptoms that their father had that were part of the illness that killed their father.

Julie: So if those symptoms began to present and that person, let’s say they’re now an adult, and they go to the doctor and try to figure this out, there actually is no physical cause, what’s happening is that their dear father who’s become attached to them, his presence is coming forward, His symptoms are presenting. His thoughts could be too,  his worries, could be to his anxieties about his children, could be too. So that young person who grows into adulthood with their father, they’re intending to be a loving presence could actually be an overshadowing presence whose anxiety could be felt by the child who’s now an adult as their own, whose worry could now be felt by that person as their own, and who could even develop physical symptoms that wouldn’t have a physical explanation. And so the diagnosis then would be, the practitioner would hear all of what the person is experiencing… Like, I can’t resolve my anxiety. I can’t resolve my worry. I’m just in this chronic state of worry and anxiety. I’m having pain in different places in my body that I can’t explain. And so then the practitioner would enter into a natural trance state, and they would contact their helping spirits and ask for diagnosis.

Julie: And the diagnosis would be, there’s this spirit who’s become attached to his child, who’s now an adult. But he never left this realm. He never left this world. So his spiritual evolution is being impeded by his being here instead of continuing to evolve. But also his now adult child is experiencing the burden of all that he was carrying when he died. And that’s not serving either of them. He’s not actually a helping spirit for his now adult child. He’s not a guardian angel for them, he’s a burden to them, even though that was never his intention. So the healing is to help decouple the father from the child and help the father go to the light finally, and then have the child experience in their adult selves for the first time since their father died. What is it like to be the sole occupant of their body and of their energy field? Because up until that time, from the time their father died, until the time this was detected, there had been two souls in one body. And for the the host, if you will, in this case, the adult child, you don’t even necessarily know…. Very often you have no idea. There’s a whole other set of proclivities, of opinions, of memories, of dreams, of desires, of experiences, of worries, of anxieties, and sometimes of symptoms that belong to the other person, and that was a part of their life ,and how their life ended is it has nothing to do with you and your biography and who you are and what you’re becoming. But those two things become completely enmeshed. So then there’s a decoupling process, and the father is then helped to go to the light, and then the adult child can look at who they are now. And will there be resolution? Will the worry resolve? Will the anxiety resolve? Or maybe they’re a little prone to worry and anxiety too, just like their father was. But now it’s gone from a nine out of ten to a two out of ten, or now it’s commensurate with their circumstances because, of course, being worried and having anxiety is normal and natural in response to certain stressors or triggers. Now, the level of worry or anxiety is commensurate with what’s actually happening instead of always being heightened. And so I know that was a complex explanation, but it’s very, very, very common because when people die, they’re often so afraid of death, or they’re afraid of punishment, they’re afraid of purgatory, they’re afraid of hell, they’re afraid of of being blamed or not being received or not being forgiven, or they’re attached. They’re staying here trying to protect us from harm. And so it can be so well meant, but not helpful for the person who’s dead or for the person who’s still living.

Alison : You know, what you say resonates with me with the idea of generational trauma. You know that, because that’s a term that comes up a lot. And I think we’ve even talked to some people about that. And so that’s so interesting that, um, to, to to see it with what you’re saying from your lens of uh, of, of of on the soul level.

Julie: Yes.

Alison : Um, are you Do you are a teacher or are you still a practitioner now?

Julie: I don’t I don’t provide individual healing sessions anymore because I’ve now trained 100 practitioners who have completed three full years of training. And so my role is to lift them up and to send people to them. And oftentimes, people who resonate with me resonate with my students because we resonate with each other and we’re in community together and they’ve learned from me and they’ve often studied with my teachers as well, who both still teach. And so it’s kind of all in the family, I would say, but I certainly welcome people reaching out to me for referrals. And then what I do is refer people to my students. But if I may, to go back to what you said, yes, this is one of the, in my opinion, very significant contributors to generational trauma that is not widely understood. For example, to use a different thread or to talk about a different thread generational addiction. And so let’s also imagine we’ll use the same storyline. Let’s imagine the father struggled with alcoholism and that that was not resolved for him at the time of his death. Well, if he becomes attached to his adult child, who may also genetically now have that predisposition, when his child has a drink, he gets a little bit of a hit from that.

Alison : Mhm.

Julie: And so he can exacerbate his child’s propensity to become addicted to alcohol because he could influence him to want to drink more. So these patterns of addiction, yes, patterns of trauma wounding etc., can be so greatly exacerbated by we call them suffering beings. Those spirits of people who have died, who become attached to the living and who just need our care and love and support to help them go to the light and the care of the helping spirits, to welcome them to the light, no matter who they are and what they’ve done.  I’ve facilitated, I can’t even tell you how many hundreds of compassionate depositions, which is the remedy for possession illness. Every time whoever the person is who’s died and become attached to a living person, whoever they are, whatever they’ve done or whatever they’ve not done, every time, without exception, they are welcomed with open arms by the helping spirits and by their own ancestors who have died. And so there’s no one who gets turned away, even though that’s often the reason that at the time of death, people are afraid to go to the light because they think they’re going to be turned away or punished.

Jean : Oh, that makes so much sense.

Alison : Yeah,

Jean : Especially if you were raised in a religion of, um, you know, fire and brimstone and the devil and all of that and guilt and, and so that deep seated guilt and fear…. It makes sense why they’re just like, no, I’m not going. And, yes, um, you know, you have to sort of coax that spirit lovingly to release. And the way you talk about it, Julie is so loving and compassionate. You know, it’s, um, you know, it’s really honoring everyone’s journey whether you have a body or not. You know, it’s it’s that movement towards the light, towards freedom. Um.

Alison : You’re so gentle.

Jean : Yeah.

Julie: Thank you.

Alison : You’re so gentle. I could just listen to you for ever.

Julie: Oh, that’s so kind. Thank you.

Jean : Your voice is very soothing.

Alison : Yeah.

Julie:  thank you.

Alison : Yeah. We have two wrap up questions.

Julie: Yes.

Alison : The first one is, what do you. Our podcast is called Inside Wink. And what do you think? Inside wink means.

Julie: Mhm.

Alison : You.

Julie: Yes. So for me it’s that luminosity that I was describing before which I feel is our natural state as humans. My teacher, Betsy Bergstrom, who taught me compassion deposition and taught me how to care for those beautiful spirits in need as though they are living clients, to treat them equally with just as much care. She also taught me this beautiful practice for working with our heart lights and helping our heart lights shine and twinkle. And to me, that’s that inner or inside wink is that sparkliness or twinkling ness that I think is actually our human natural state. But we’ve become a little defended, unfortunately.

Alison : Yeah. That’s beautiful. And and I think I definitely see that in you. Like, you have such an easy laugh and such a, you know, it’s it’s it’s great. It’s great.

Julie: Thank you.

Alison : Best question.

Jean : Okay. So our last question is do you prefer cake pie or ice cream.

Julie: Definitely ice cream. Chocolate, please. Preferably with hot fudge sauce and whipped cream, but no cherry on top.

Jean : On american Airlines- this is not a plug for American Airlines, but they do offer sometimes a sundae.

Alison : That’s so funny.

Jean :  and they ask, do you want vanilla, chocolate, sauce, cherries???  So, um.

Alison : Anyway, I love how definite you are.

Julie: Yes.

Alison : You’re very human. Definite.

Julie: So it’s my favorite dessert. Yes. So my. I’ve placed that order many times.

Alison : You know it. You know it by rote.

Julie: Exactly.

Julie: Thank you so, so much for joining us. You’ve shed light on something that I think is so interesting.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : And beautiful. And I feel very open. So thank you so much.

Jean : Yeah. You really have illuminated my mind around shamanism and, uh, and I’m very intrigued by this topic. So thank you. Yes. Thank you so much. Many blessings.

Julie: Well, and many blessings to you both. And thank you so much for your open heartedness and your generosity and inviting me to join you and have this lovely conversation with you. Thank you.

Alison : Have a beautiful day.

Julie: You too.

Jean : Bye, Julie.

Julie: Bye bye.

Alison : Okay. That was wonderful, wasn’t it?

Jean : She was wonderful. Yeah.

Alison : Wonderful. Wonderful explanations. And then guess what happened? We saw a quail outside.

Jean : I’m going to have to find you a quail.

Alison : I loved that, though. It was like. It was like a perfect guiding spirit. They were so cute hanging out.

Jean : You know what I thought of another question I wanted to ask her what, um, and had to do with animals because  i also think shamanism… Shamanism has to do with spirit animals. And I wanted to talk to her.

Alison : She did mention that because she mentioned she had that bear. Yeah, which I love that.

Jean : But that is a field that I know very little about. And yet I feel like being a shaman is like being an oracle or being a mystic, or maybe like a witch back in the you know, it’s just connecting to spirit world.

Alison : And I think, I think too it also resonates with like Lorna Byrne talking about talking to angels. Yes. That we’ve spoken to so many of these things. Every time we have an interview, I realize it’s all so interconnected and that it that brings me peace. Like nothing is like, um. Oh, what are you talking about? Oh, you know, it’s not like someone’s talking about football, you know? They’re all so interconnected. And when we meet these people, they are radiant. Mhm.

Jean : She was, she has a lot of light and joy.

Alison : Really amazing. And it made me feel very comforted and also very relaxed. Her voice.

Jean : Yeah. She had a beautiful voice. But again there It shows to you know, it’s we’re not alone. We have spirit guides and helpers, whatever the word is… You know, people, let’s not get caught up in angel or guide, ascended master, an ancestor.

Alison : Friend.

Jean : Friend. Yeah.

Alison : Husband. Partner. Yeah. Uh, friend. I mean, that’s the thing, I think. I think it is just about love and opening up. It’s an opening up as opposed to a closing in.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : Do you know? Which is so nice. Okay, I got to go look for the quail now again. Okay, okay. Have a good day.

Jean : Bye