Alison : Hello.

Jean : Hi, there.

Alison : Okay. I’m sleeping. Why do you think I’m sleeping?

Jean : Because you’re having a dream.

Alison : That’s right, that’s exactly right. That is exactly right. Because we’re talking to a woman, a dream expert. But, like, more than an expert, like she’s..

Jean : Dedicated her life to um, to getting it out there, that our dreams are very powerful.

Alison : That’s right.

Jean : And very helpful.

Alison : That’s right. Right, right. Perfect. She wrote the book called, The Secret Mind — Unlock the Power of Your Dreams To Transform Your Life.

Jean : And we’re talking to Bonnie Buckner, who is also the creator of the,  International Institute for Dreaming and Imagery.

Alison : That’s right, that’s right. So you and I were just talking about dreams. How we never really thought about them. Like it was like, oh,  a dream…yeah..that was a thinkg, right?

Alison :  but then you were talking about, um, dreams that you might have had about about Alex.

Jean : Oh, yeah.

Alison : Right.  And that that some of them felt different.

Jean : Yeah. Some of them feel like I had a knowing that his soul, if you will, was really communicating with me like, oh, I had a a deep encounter with him versus just, oh, there was just a fleeting moment of him.

Alison : Right, right.

Jean : I either had like a knowing like, oh, he he visited me.

Alison : Hmm.

Jean : Versus just like an image of him.

Alison : I love that.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : Because, you know.

Jean : And I don’t get that a lot.

Alison : You don’t?

Jean : I wish I got it more, but I don’t.

Alison : Alex, are you listening? That’s right. Because Jean’s talking to you. I think it was just like like reading the book and beginning to think about dreams. I really want to remember my dreams more because I don’t right now, like I started to with this book, but I really think I want to, i want to remember them because I think they’re kind of fun because they’re so thick… My dreams are lots going on.

Jean : Well, she definitely says you can remember your dreams. It’s like a muscle. It’s a skill, right? And she she teaches how to remember your dreams, how to interpret them, understand them, and then to, and then it’s your responsibility to act on them.

Alison : Right.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : I can’t wait to talk to her.

Jean : I know.

Alison : I’m very excited. All right, here she is. Here’s Bonnie.

Jean : It’s wonderful to see your face in person. And thank you for writing such a, ” wow” book.

Alison : Yeah.

Bonnie : Thank you.

Jean : Really, really opened up my my knowingness of of dreams. I had no idea the power behind my dreams.

Bonnie : Oh, yeah!

Alison : Yeah. It’s amazing. We we we loved it. So we’re just going to dive right in. How did you get interested in all this? Dreams. And it’s just like, it’s amazing and it’s so in depth, your book. How did how did this begin for you?

Bonnie : Well, I, um, it came from a dream. When I was three years old. I had had nightmares and nightmares and nightmares, and I, um, was really troubled by it. I was scared of them. Right? And I had a moment one day where I was sitting outside in the morning on our front porch steps, and I started thinking, you know, maybe I can just never sleep. And then, you know, I’m a three year old kid. So I’m thinking, what’s the Guinness Book of World Records– never going to sleep,Right? And then I kind of just kept thinking through that and realizing, you know, I have to sleep. And it just kind of hit me, oh, that’s why I’m on this planet. I’m going to learn how to master my dreams and teach that to others. And, you know, it’s not something that I like really focused on. It was kind of in the back of my head, and I kept going through life. And I want to say this, this is really important to all those parents out there, who are your listeners– um, one thing that was really great is that my family supported me saying things like that. So they talked about dreams with me and talked about these kinds of things. And then when I was in junior high, one of my, one of the librarians handed me a book on dreams. And I just kept having these little tastes, these little moments going along until I found the dreaming lineage or tradition that really spoke to me as an adult.

Alison : Wow. That’s amazing. Three years old.

Bonnie : I think kids know things when they’re really young. Yeah, and then it gets kind of put aside or buried or, you know.

Alison : Right, I agree. So can you tell us, because we were just talking about this while we while we were on, what is a dream?

Bonnie : Oh, that’s a great question. Um, I want to know what you guys think is a dream? Because when we did finally get on and the zoom clicked in, you said, well, this was a dream… So what is a dream?

Alison : I kind of think. I kind of think everything’s a dream.

Bonnie : Yes

Alison : I kind of think everything’s an illusion and a perception. And I believe that …like When I was reading your book, I was thinking that you were able to tap into a greater level of thinking or a general, uh, a general consciousness. Um, I have never thought about dreams the way you explained them. And that’s what we were just talking about, that for us, it was like dreams were- oh, um, and like an afterthought or your brain trying to work something out. And then we were talking about A Christmas Carol, where he says, you’re just a piece of undigested potato.

Bonnie : Yeah.

Alison : Um, but. So that’s kind of what I thought. But, but but your book brings up such specific seven types of dreams. The the location, that principle, I , all these things that were like, wow, I, I never realized that. So I don’t know.  What do you think a dream is?

Bonnie : Well, let’s think of. Let’s back up just a little bit. We are in a body, and a body is form. And we look out into the world and we see forms. We see trees outside the window. We see this microphone. Everything that we feel we can really grasp is a form, but we also experience a lot of other things that don’t have that are invisible to the naked eye. We experience things like, um, right now I can feel this room is a little hot, it’s a little stuffy. I’m not seeing that. I’m feeling that, right? Then there’s even more ephemeral sort of things, like feeling like I’m in love or feeling like I’m in awe.. you know, try to explain that to somebody. Um, we lack vocabulary and visual reference for a huge amount of things that we experience in our lives. So, dreaming is all the time I’m going to pick up on perception, not illusion. I’ll be specific about that in the words, because for me it’s very, very real. It’s our body’s response to what we perceive. So I’m perceiving something, but on my inside I’m having some kind of response to it. I’m having an emotional response, or I’m just having a basic response. I like that, I don’t like that. How do I know what I feel? How do I know who I am? How do I know what decision I want to take? So our inside gives us a language of images. It puts into form the things that don’t have form so that we can look at it, make sense of it, and then respond to it.

Alison : Mhm.

Jean : Yeah.

Jean : Wow.

Bonnie : Yes.

Jean : Honestly. Bonnie.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : Like the name of your book, the title of your book, The Secret Mind. I think that is so apropos because it, it is this untapped wealth of wisdom and guidance that, that most of us haven’t been privy to. It’s just, oh, it’s a dream. You had a bad dream. Oh, you know, don’t worry about it. Or whatever our parents did to navigate… And you are opening up a whole new way to receive support from the universe, from God, from your higher self.

Bonnie : Absolutely. You know, we get we. Life requires us to, um, learn the culture we’re living in, whether it’s our family culture. It’s our, you know, growing up in Texas, like I did culture, if we moved to a new culture, we have to kind of figure out what’s the sort of, you know, guardrails of how people conduct themselves in these places. Those guardrails can be, um, useful because that’s how we exchange. It’s part of our social contract that we make with others and how we sort of go about our day. But they can also be, um, small and rigid. And so as we start to, you know, grow up and start to say things. And that’s why I mentioned parents earlier, I would say, I’m going to teach people how to work with their dreams. I grew up in the middle of nowhere in Texas. I mean, nowhere is a teeny tiny town in the Texas Panhandle. And yet my parents had the wherewithal to say, great. Yeah. Not every parent does that. Not every school teacher does that. And so we start to set things aside in ourselves to poo poo, you know, things that we’re feeling and we start conforming and we miss these other parts of ourselves. And that’s why, um, when we dream and most of our dreams, we have a lot of different things. We have characters, objects, scenarios, because those are all aspects of ourself that we haven’t been paying attention to. And then there’s just the plain old busy. We are busy and modern society is just moving at a pace that honestly, none of us can keep up with. And that pace requires us to just be always looking out and checking off and doing. And to really know ourselves, we have to stop and look inside and get really quiet. And so all these factors kind of keep us from that wisdom. As you’re talking about the part of me, that already knows what’s best for me. Mhm.

Alison : Yes. That’s so that’s so true. Uh, just for our listeners sake, I want, I would like to describe that almond dream.

Bonnie : Mhm. Okay.

Alison : So there’s um a dream that you reference in the book about a person that was trying to decide between jobs. Right. And they had a, was it a, it was, was it a dream, Dream or was it a waking dream in your office?

Bonnie : I did a waking dream.

Alison : A waking dream. And in the waking dream, uh, there is, um, a box and then a tree with, with, i think it’s a golden almond or.

Bonnie : One golden almond. Yeah.

Alison : And immediately, um, upon that you in this client were able to realize, I guess, after talking about what the box was and was, I think it was a cardboard box or something, and what this meant, and it meant that the person should take neither job and start on their own, once they got through this block. So the necessity of the dream means getting through, getting past this block. I thought about that dream so much because, how much is that, how much did you and the client know that it meant, hey, try another, try something different on your own? How how did that connection come up?

Bonnie : Yeah. So here’s what’s so great about dreams? Really.. All of us know what we really want to do. The big plaguing question is, why we’re not doing it? And all of these reasons we’ve been talking about are reasons that we sort of stick that in the bottom drawer. Way back. So in that scenario, this client had given me, you know, a very long really talked to me for like 45 minutes about the pros and cons of each of these two jobs. Like just spinning in circles, you know, because they were both great and they were both great offers. And so we did this little imagery exercise. And the first thing that she says to me, oh, I see this almond tree with this golden almond. I don’t want to take either of those jobs and then start spilling out all the things she had already been thinking through of starting her own practice. So it wasn’t even that… She just started thinking about it in that second. She had already driven the neighborhood and found a for lease sign, but it was locked away. That’s why, “unlock” is in the the title of the book as well. It had been locked away by her own lock and key, mind you. She knew what she really wanted to do, but she stuffed it away and was in that sort of logical thinking. You know what is going to be better? Because it’s a risk. But life wants us to take little risks. And that risk being what I really want to do with my life. So I didn’t do really anything. I gave a little exercise to help her get back to that dreaming place. And then, when she said, but there’s a block, there’s this, you know, cardboard box in the way, then I could help her a little bit. We’ll get over it. Help find a way over, under, through, around. And then that’s when she said, well, it’s just cardboard because it’s always just cardboard. It’s rarely super difficult. It’s just getting ourselves replugged in to the emotional, exciting tenor of what we really want to do.

Alison : I love that.

Jean : I do too. You know, when when I think of dreams, Bonnie, it’s really– dreams for dummies. Very, very basic. Like, oh, I had I think I remember I was driving a truck and I went over a mountain. Right. Let’s say I say something like that, now, for you hearing me say that, is that going to be the same interpretation that Allison would have? Like, is a truck the same for Jean, for Bonnie, for, you know, is there a different definition or symbol or image?

Bonnie : Everybody makes their own image vocabulary. I’m really glad you brought that up because people ask me, um, you know, I looked I had this dream and I went online, I googled it, and I, I immediately I’m just like, oh, no, I know something bad is about to come out. And what they say is I read these things about, you know, symbols and it’s not me ,that’s not you know what I think this dream is about.. So over Memorial weekend, I was in, um, visiting a friend in upstate New York, and we went to Niagara Falls. I’ve never been there. And she is a practitioner at the institute that I run for dreaming. And we were with a second practitioner. So there were three dreamers of us looking at Niagara Falls. And one of the groundskeepers there had found a little snake, and he was holding the snake, and all these little kids gathered around him, and they wanted to see the snake. And we got talking. You know, snakes are a great example of that because there’s a lot of different meanings that snakes can have and the experience each one of us has with a snake. And then the context in which that snake appears in a dream is determinant of what that means. So like those kids were super excited about the snake and they wanted to touch it and all of these things. Now, I grew up in Texas and we had poisonous rattlesnakes. So my sort of initial moment is, okay, wait, what kind of snake are we looking at here? You know? Total different universe that we’re coming from and that’s going to show up in our dreams.

Alison : And that’s interesting because I said to my husband, hey, I’m talking to a dream expert. What would you like to ask? And his thing was like, what’s an empty house mean?  and I said no, no, no. I said that I think that’s all for. He said, no, no, no ask, ask. And it’s funny because it’s not… There isn’t a thing.

Bonnie : There isn’t a thing.

Jean : There isn’t a code book.

Bonnie : That’s what gives us our power.

Alison : Right.

Bonnie : Because it’s my thing and it’s what I’m coming into with it. And if I’m looking, if I’m googling, what does this mean? I’m asking someone on the outside to tell me what my interior life is. Yeah, but if I take the time to get to know my interior life, then I have agency. And I do for myself, right?

Alison : That’s exactly, exactly right. Um, can you tell me you talk about seven different types of dreams, and they range like nightmare to great dream to, you know, clear dream. And then you talk about, um, the busy dream.

Bonnie : Yeah.

Alison : And it’s and and I that’s what I feel like I have all the time. When you said busy dream,  i’m like, check… that’s me. I think you say that that is is is is is an outgrowth of an unresolved problem or nightmare… Is that am I understanding that correctly?

Bonnie : Yeah. So let’s look at it this way. First of all nightmare I mean that’s the most common thing. And everybody who pretty much anywhere says, oh yeah, I’ve had a nightmare. Okay. We remember that for a reason. It scares us. And so, counterintuitively, nightmares are really great friends because they literally are trying to wake us up to something to a block. Okay, there’s a nightmare. I wake up, I deal with it. I don’t have it again, but maybe I don’t. Maybe it goes back to what Jean was saying earlier, just kind of pushing it away. And then it comes back. You know, people tell me sometimes I keep having this, you know, one dream, right? Maybe we even push that away. At that point, things start to pile up. And that’s really what a busy dream is, is the pile up? Sometimes I refer to it like, you know, if you come home, you leave your socks in the middle of the floor. One set of socks is not really a problem. You could clean it up, but then day after day for leaving socks, it’s starting to be like, oh, there’s a pile of things. But then some friends are going to come over. Instead of dealing with the socks, we just pull a carpet over it, pretend it’s not even there. Right? But then at some point, we’re going to forget that it’s about socks and we’re going to start to deal with this carpet. Why does this carpet have a lump in the middle of it? And then we are so off track at that point because we’re looking at the wrong thing. We have to dig back in.

Alison : Right. So that’s and that interested me because I don’t remember a nightmare that would have instigated busy dreams. So how could somebody. Because I talked to a lot of people and they’re like, oh yeah, I’m rushing around. I’m doing stuff. I’m there’s a million people. They’re all busy. Um, what can I do? Or what can I tell someone else to do to get back to the nightmare? How do I ask myself that at night? Or, like, how do I wait?

Bonnie : Hang on.

Alison : Okay.

Bonnie : Because I’m going to move you in a different direction… not to get back to the nightmare, but let’s go towards coherence here. Okay. Um, I will say this. This is a caveat because a lot of people say to me at the beginning, oh, I’m only having busy dreams. But in fact, they’re not, often. Often they’re clear dreams, but there’s, you know, at the beginning when you don’t know how to draw the lines, you know, connect the dots, it just seems like there’s all these crazy things going on. But when you start to work with them, then you start to realize this makes sense. Like these go together, these vignettes. So it’s kind of more, maybe an easier way to start to wrap your hands around it is color. So a clear dream is going to have everyday colors and maybe one sort of bright spot like the pool had really turquoise water, you know, that’s kind of a a clear dream. But a busy dream is like it’s more murky, like Sienna colors. Like it doesn’t quite get anywhere.

Alison : Right.

Bonnie : And that can happen too. I need to say, when we’re super tired, when we’re, you know, it doesn’t have to follow that linear progression, exactly, from nightmare to busy dream. The nightmare might be in my waking time. I’m just burning the candle at both ends. You know, things like this.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : Colors. I forgot that. You’re right. You say that.

Bonnie : I’m not testing y’all. But I do appreciate that you read the book.

Alison : You said it, though… I’m, you know….

Jean : Okay, so if I’m a new person, that’s that’s hearing this, this interview, and I go, wow, I, I want to start tapping into my dreams like a newbie. And I have my yellow legal pad next to my bed. You take it from there, Bonnie, what what do you suggest this person do to start working with their dreams?

Bonnie : Do you have a yellow legal pad? Is that how you’re doing it?

Jean : No, I don’t, I don’t,  for me, i lay in bed before I go to bed at night and I’ll… because of reading your book, I’ll go, you know, please show me right now, i say show me what I need to know?

Bonnie : Okay.

Jean : Help me to remember my dream.

Bonnie : But what do you put it in?

Jean : In my head.

Bonnie : Okay. That’s the, that’s the problem.

Jean : Okay.

Bonnie : So yellow legal pad is fine. That’s a step up from the head. But, um, intention is key. Any sleep study, any neuroscientist will tell you a little bit of intention, kick starts dream recall. So if you go out and find a pretty journal, a little step up from the legal pad, something’s pretty and you’re kind of excited about it. You know, journals are kind of fun. You’re going to put things in it. That’s a great way to start. And so write the date on the first page and your sentence like the sentence that you said. Or tonight I’ll have a dream and remember whatever sentence you want. And then put the pin there and write it down. One of the things I would love to do is like hover over people when they’re about to get out of bed and push them back in and say, wait, because we tend to jump out of bed and like, go, go go go go. If we just stay there quietly, so many more things, just even five minutes will come back that, and especially if you start writing in your dream journal feeling– snippets of songs, all of these things are part of that dream experience emotions and then just sit with that and have a question about it. I was having a conversation with a guy yesterday about this, actually, and he was like, I just get out of bed and go. And I said, but what if you just laid there a little longer? And the more we talked, he was like, yeah, because actually, if I need to think and have a good idea, it’s normally in the shower, you know, when I’m relaxed and I’m not really thinking. I said, well, that part of your brain, the default mode is what’s operating in that sleepy time, mind wandering time when you’re waking up. And it’s so fruitful and it’s so good for us and so creative. So just sitting in that space a little bit relaxing, not grabbing the phone and just thinking like, why am I waking up with this, this snippet of all the songs I know? What’s this snippet about? And follow the association, because it’s probably going to associate you to something. Oh yeah, that happened yesterday or that happened last week, and just follow it and see what opens up.

Alison : Yeah, that’s that’s that’s great. Beautiful. And you also can you also talk to the listeners, um, about the connection between dreams and imagination and creativity, because I find that I found in your book that keeping referencing those was very inspiring to me.

Bonnie : Mhm. Well, it’s inspiring to me too. And it’s needed. I mean, I really am kind of on a mission to get people to really get back into their dreaming, to source that infinite place of creativity that all of us have, because we all have it and we use it every single day, and we don’t think about it because we’ve created this sort of idea of like, well, I’m not Mozart or I’m not, you know, Picasso. But Ruth Richards is a creativity researcher and she talks about everyday creativity. Think about the ingenuity that it takes to think about how do I start a podcast? How do I pay my bills? You know, we we are creating all the time and we’re creating without even knowing it. We’re creating relationships. We’re creating communities. So the part of our brain that is responsible for dreaming the default network, is also the part that is responsible for our imagination. It’s the part of our brain that, um, has all of these experiences, memories, associations, inner knowings. How do I know what I know? It’s all kind of stored in there. And the default network takes that to imagine new things with it. I’ve been doing this up to this moment in my life, now let’s imagine somewhere else.

Bonnie : It’s also responsible for, I call it social cognition. It’s it’s that grab bag of things, of empathy, and how do I know that what I said, you guys understood? Or maybe did I upset somebody? Or we have to imagine, like, really put ourselves in other people’s shoes to know that. And so dreaming is all part of that same network of, um, that neural processing network. And the more we dream, I believe, the more creative, because we’re spending time there. And that’s kind of on the radar right now of, of neuroscience research, because the other major neural processing network is the executive network, and that’s the one. We just use it all the time. Every time we pick up the phone, we’re using it every time we do, you know, two plus two equals that kind of cognitive, goal driven thinking. But the two are supposed to talk to each other, and that’s called functional connectivity. And the more we are just pounding technology and pounding these goal directed things, the less they’re cross talking, and that’s a problem, you know, if we can’t imagine new ways of being, new ways of creating societies, governments, etc., then we’re just going to repeat the same thing ad infinitum.

Alison : I think what you’re saying is so important right now, especially with AI.

Jean : I was just going to say that.

Alison : I heard you.

Jean : I was so thinking that.

Alison : Because right now so many people I know say, oh, I like they, they write a, um, a promo for a podcast. And they didn’t even write it.

Bonnie : Yeah.

Alison : I it’s just and and like, there’s part of the, I think part of the good stuff about writing it yourself is the frustration and making it better. You know, personally, I kind of like the oh, that’s not really– like I like that part of the creative process. So I think what you’re saying is so crucial right now. And when you say you’re on a mission, can you just go flesh that out a little bit for us? Like, how are you? How is that showing up for you? Your mission.

Bonnie : Well, one of the dreams that I mentioned in the book is the Johnny Appleseed of Dreams, um, which was a dream of mine, of really sort of getting seeing myself as kind of Johnny Appleseed and understanding that it’s about planting, you know, dreams in places, meaning teaching people how to work with dreams and training people to work with dreams. So they teach more people to work with dreams. Um, I bring dreaming work into, um, some unexpected places. Let’s say through the institute, um, we provide programming at the George Washington University, um, center for Excellence in Public Leadership’s coaching programs, the eco coaching program. And we use that as a means of training people to learn to look inside themselves. And coaching is a really great place to bring in dreaming because we think of coaching as goals. I want to change my job, so get me from A to B, that’s what people bring to a coach, or I need to learn how to do XYZ and coaches often, then just pick that up and run with it. But none of us make decisions that um, That don’t come from an emotional place. In one way or another, you know, and from a very simple thing of just I really feel this, and so then we really go for it. And so when we’re talking about coaching, for example, go back to the Almond dream. Am I going to coach somebody on that pros and cons list, like that woman brought to me, if so, she’s going to take one of those two jobs and that’s another five years that her real dream inside gets buried. But if I can plug in to the real emotion of what she really wants to do, and that’s why she couldn’t take that decision because there was no emotional connection there. If I can get to that place, then people can just move and move so fast. That woman’s a perfect example. She wrote me an email three months later and said she was on track to earn more that year than what either one of those two jobs would have brought in. And it’s because she was motivated and enthusiastic. So when I say I’m on a mission, I just I’m stomping around in as many places as I can. That will open the door to me to talk about this, to get people to just very simply just start writing your dreams– just that, because it’s your way in to know more about yourself.

Alison : Yeah. That’s great.

Jean : It really is wonderful. So, so can people just go to your website and you offer a whole bunch of different classes and courses on.

Bonnie : yeah. So anybody can come to the website. We have classes year round. Um, you can find some of the practitioners, myself included. We do one on one sessions with people. If people want to have, you know, that individual work. Um, we also, a lot of organizations come to us and ask us to put together, um, programs for them. And these can be extensive programs. They can be smaller programs. You know, we’ve had just groups of people say, hey, I’ve got I did this a couple of weekends ago. I’ve got ten of my friends. Can you just teach us dreaming just to get us going a little bit? Yes. So, yeah.

Jean : Bonnie, can you dream for someone else?

Bonnie : What do you mean for?

Jean : Let’s say, like Allison here says to me, you know, I I’ve just been, like, really busy lately. Can can you see if you get any insight from my from my dog, like how my dog is doing, you know, can can.

Bonnie : You mean like a sort of clairvoyant reading.

Jean : Yeah.

Bonnie : I mean, we do have intuitive dreams and intuition. Just when we’re awake and premonitory dreams. Yeah. Um, and if you think about it, we’re all connected. We’re all…

Jean : That’s why I ask, like…

Bonnie : Yeah, yeah. Um. And I frequently, uh, especially around if I have clients who are trying to get pregnant, I very frequently will dream when they get pregnant.

Jean : You do?

Bonnie : Um, I do, but I don’t say that to them. It’s their journey to get pregnant. Um, it would be out of my out of step for me to say, hey, this is going to be a great day. I just dreamed that you got pregnant. I wait, they can come to me and say, I finally did it, we’re pregnant. And then I can say, yeah, I had a dream that kind of made me feel that was going to be the case because I am me, so anything I dream or intuit has to come through my lens and it’s only my lens. And that might get filtered through a lot of other different things. And we have to be careful to kind of know, you know, what’s mine, how much of that is me and how much of that is somebody else?

Alison : And then, yeah, that makes that’s you talk about that, about the baby and the swimming pool.

Bonnie : Yeah.

Alison : That was a great that was a great dream. Um, uh, if you dream about, uh, my eldest child dreams about my mother, who’s passed, um, pretty frequently. And I’m always really interested in those dreams. Is that my mom communicating with my child or, like, is that just basically only not only, but specifically rooted in my child?

Bonnie : I would have to talk to your child, but, um, I can address that. And it’s interesting, it really because I have been on the road a lot the last few weeks and doing a lot of workshops, talking to a lot of people, and that is, that has become the number one thing people ask me about. It used to be nightmares, and now people are asking me about this and they all want to know, is it a real visitation now? Um, if there’s a quality to it that feels different and the people are saying to me it felt different. I know it’s a visitation. It’s a visitation. If it’s like they just kind of showed up in the dream. And now I’m going to say it’s a part of you that you have, you know, reflected an aspect of them. And it depends on the quality. And it’s it’s a difficult thing to describe to people, but it’s kind of like, you know, the difference between an intuitive moment, you know, where like, your hair stands up on your arms or, you know, and time feels different versus just a, yeah, I’m going to go to the grocery store right now. That’s just a regular decision. So visitation dreams are kind of the same.

Jean : I can relate to exactly what you’re saying. It’s very hard to articulate, but I’ve had a dream where my husband, I had a dream about Alex, and I knew I was like, oh, he he was there. He was there. And other times I’ve had dreams and there was no substance to it. There was it was very fleeting. It really didn’t feel… But not many, but maybe three times I’ve had a dream where like a knowing almost. Oh, that that was.

Alison : Oh, that’s beautiful.

Jean : Or my grandmother.

Alison : Right, right, right, right. So.

Bonnie : Um, you you also, I wanted to ask you this. You talk about in the book, that jewelry store incident.

Bonnie : Yes.

Alison : You’re in a jewelry store, and it’s it’s like one connection after another, after another. And then it’s about moving to Paris and.

Bonnie : Moving to France. Yeah.

Alison : That’s right. And then the woman comes in, and this, this arbitrary woman comes in looking for necklaces, which I guess she couldn’t really see the way the the thing was positioned. And then , she you mention a town or someone mentioned the town. She goes, that was your dream. And like, books out of there. What what was she?

Bonnie : I don’t know. And that’s what’s so wonderful about dreaming.

Alison : Amazing. Like it gives me chills.

Bonnie : It is so amazing. So, you know, I want to go back to the visitation for one second because I work with a lot of, um, corporate people, people who are in, you know, very high up positions who come, you know, suit and tie, let’s say, sort of sense to them. And so many people say to me, you know, even sometimes our first meeting together, they lean in, even though it’s just the two of us on zoom. And they whisper, I think my grandmother visited me in a dream. And these are people that you wouldn’t think are into that kind of thing, right? But I, I really love that because we are connected and we are, there’s way more to life than what we see. And it’s so important to allow that. Just allow that to be the case. And when we start to say, okay, I’m I can allow that, I can be curious that there’s more than what meets the surface. Um, it’s little things. It’s little connections. I mentioned this dream workshop that I did the other day, and this man was saying, yeah, I understand that. And he goes, I was with my son and we were at a pond and we were watching this heron, and he said, suddenly I was looking at the pond and the heron and my son, but it was like all of a sudden the colors were way more vivid. And time just slowed down for us and we had such a meaningful moment. And he said, I just started connecting the dots to my son and our family and where we are and the heron and what that means to me. And he said I was having a dream while I was awake. And I said exactly. It’s just a different way of perceiving the world at a moment in time and seeing, kind of like reading between the lines, seeing something beyond just the surface.

Jean : Yes.

Alison : So that’s the exciting part of life.

Bonnie : Yeah. It’s so much more vivid. And I just wrote a blog this morning about falling in love with life. You know, there’s something that all the dreamers who work any amount of time with us at the institute say is everything becomes Technicolor. You know, like, just little things, like butterflies. I notice going to my car to go to work. Whereas before I would have been in my head busy thinking about my to do list, I would have missed it. You know, there’s miracles all around us in our most quotidian daily activities, but we’re so busy in our minds we miss it. So part of dreaming is just becoming very present to the wonder that’s all around us.

Alison : And it seems like a lot of people that we’re interviewing lately, another, uh, theme is curiosity.

Bonnie : Yeah.

Alison : I feel like that’s what your book really opened up for me. A whole curious thing of a whole other, you know, access point for me, which was, which was exciting, you know. Do you agree?

Jean : 100%. I know two people right in my mind now that I’m going to send your book to. They’re big dreamers and and I think this is going to be so helpful.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : The work you’re doing is so inspiring and so beneficial, Bonnie.

Alison : Do you have a morning ritual?

Bonnie : I do..I it’s kind of extensive, right? But I’m also I prepare myself to teach. But the very first thing is to be in that I’m not awake but I’m not asleep space. And I really extend that even, it means for me when I have, you know, events to get to or appointments, really waking up with enough time to lay in that in between space. And a lot of the things I’ve written and, and created has come from that place. And they come in little like snapshots, like a whole chapter as a snapshot. And I get it. And I just make some little notes in my dream journal, and then I can do whatever in my day and then come back to it when I’m ready to actually do something with it. So I extend that time until I kind of I can just feel when it’s coming to a close, you know? And then I do some imagery exercises to clear myself and and get ready to start my day. And then I have my day. And then I do a cleansing ritual at the end of my day to clean up what has happened in the day, clear myself again, and get ready to receive something in the dream.

Alison : Wow, you’ve you’ve really paved your highway. I kind of love it.

Bonnie : I love that expression. I’ve never heard that– paved my highway…

Alison : (unclear audio)  You’re like, okay, I’m ready… Bring it on in. It’s great, you know?

Alison : Thank you. So thank you so much. I can’t tell you how much we both enjoyed the book, and, uh, just you and you’re so very peaceful.

Jean : Yeah. You’re lovely to speak with

Alison : You’re really so kind

Bonnie : Oh, thank you, thank you. Thanks for having me.

Jean : We have two last questions, So the name of our podcast is Insidewink. And so what does that term mean to you?

Bonnie : So I love that question because we are getting these little inside winks all the time. What that means to me, how I dream it, as the dreamer of this dream, is it’s those little like a wink. It’s like those little fireflies that kind of light up for just a second and illuminate a next step. That’s all we need. And then we have to just be courageous enough to take that next little step. And then another little firefly is going to light up. So these little inside winks are kind of, for me, the dreaming. It’s like move there. Okay. Yeah. And I love that. What does it mean to y’all? Where did this come from?

Jean : Well, Allison imagined the word. So she came up with it. And, um, I think for me, I mean, it changes. But the core of the meeting is, what’s within yourself that wants to to to be acknowledged and, and winked at like, that’s a good thing within yourself. You know, you can be a great accountant, you can be a beautiful school teacher. But whatever that is within you, it’s like, that’s a good thing. Like winking at it.

Bonnie : Yeah.

Alison : And everyone that we asked the question to, all the answers are right. So that’s kind of the beauty of that expression. Like and everyone says something that is really how their, their personality shines through. You know, for me it just means that the it’s the curiosity, love and me sees that in you Bonnie and and and your deepest, your deepest part of your love and soul sees that in me and Jean. And that’s that’s kind of like we get each other without even realizing it from the get go.

Bonnie : I love it. You know, I love all three of these dreams so much. It’s wonderful.

Alison : And now for maybe the best dream. Do you like pie, cake or ice cream? What would you prefer?

Bonnie : Okay, out of those choices, I would choose pie. But if I can go off road and really dream it, it’s going to be cookies.

Alison : Oh.  What kind of cookies?

Bonnie : Chocolate chip. Ladies… Come on.

Jean : With or without walnuts?

Bonnie : Either.

Alison : Really?

Bonnie : I am a cookie monster.

Alison : Really?

Jean : Do you have a great chocolate chip cookie recipe?

Bonnie : I don’t, and I don’t cook with recipes very much. I just sort of, like, get in there. I know y’all have recipes on your website.

Jean : Well, I have a favorite recipe for chocolate chip cookie and.

Bonnie : Oh, send it.

Jean : I’ll Send it to you.

Bonnie : Please send it to me.

Jean :  I’ll send you my easy, but never fail-  phenomenal chocolate chip cookie.

Bonnie : I’m so grateful already because let me tell you, the cookie is pretty close to perfection, right?

Alison : I agree with you. Yeah.

Jean : Hail to the cookie.

Alison : That’s right. That’s right. All hail. Thank you so, so much, Bonnie. You’re just so wonderful. And I think people are going to get so much out of this. And you really are the Johnny Appleseed. You’re doing great.

Jean : You are.

Bonnie : Thank you. Thank you so much.

Jean : Thank you.

Bonnie : Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Alison : Have a beautiful day.

Bonnie : Thanks. Y’all too. Bye bye.

Jean : Well, I have now a completely new take on dreams– I’m going to be, i’m going to I’m going to have a oh, we’re going to each buy each other a dream journal.

Alison : That’s right. I’m going to buy you one and you’re going to buy me one so that we have our journals and we can really see if we can invest some time and thought, And I love the idea of staying in bed longer.

Jean : You know, and she’s not the only one that suggests that that morning time, it’s a it’s like a very potent time to to set your intention, um, to ask for help because you’re still not fully in the realm of the…

Alison : Waking.

Jean : 3d or whatever. You’re you still have this some energy left from the from the higher self.

Alison : I love that, right..  And I love that she, it felt, um, almost spiritual and scientific what she was talking about. Like, she really is coasting between those two sort of ideologies. Right? Like, she’s, like, talking about studies and and yet she’s talking about we’re all connected, which is what we discover every time we interview somebody.

Jean : Isn’t that true?

Alison : Right.

Jean : And I and I think that’s so beautiful that we really are awakening to a greater interconnectedness between each other.

Alison : Yeah. And that’s not an easy word to say.

Jean : No. And I did it without saying, um, and pausing for a few seconds.

Alison : I could not have done that. I’m very impressed right now.

Jean : Well, I’m impressed with Bonnie. Yeah.

Alison : Me too.

Jean : Her book is a wealth of information.

Alison : It’s so deep. There’s so much going on in the book. So if you have a minute to pick up, The Secret Mind,  or check out her website. And there is so much going on there and so many tools. It’s really great.

Jean : Yeah. And it’s and it’s it’s like exciting to see what will come forward.

Alison : Right.

Jean : Like when you pose a question to your higher self and you really take time to communicate– like what comes forth?

Alison : Right…

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : It’s like every morning could be like your birthday. Like little gifts, little gifts. In the morning, well have a great day and a great night. Dare I say a great night? Right?

Jean : Right.  Sweet dreams.

Alison : That’s right. There you go. Buy.

 

Jean : You go first.

Alison : Me go first? Hello, Jean.

Jean : Hello, Alison. You’re looking mighty fine this morning.

Alison : Thank you. We had a lovely event last night.

Jean : Yes, we went to the Wespark, uh, torchbearer ceremony.  I was thanked along with many other wonderful people for contributing to Wespark…

Alison : Which is a cancer support organisation. They’re wonderful. And what a what a lovely group of people that we met. And we knew some.

Jean : We did we, we saw, um, Ed Begley Jr and his beautiful wife,

Alison : Who we’ve interviewed, and Danny Miller, who we’ve interviewed,

Jean : And his lovely wife Saguda was there and, um,

Alison : We knew Marlene McGirt and Nancy Allen, who we’ve interviewed.  insidewink gets around.

Jean : We do. We get in all the hot places.

Alison : That’s right. But it was fun. And I’m not I don’t really necessarily feel very comfortable at those reception thingies, but you’re so good at, like, talking with people, like, just they’ll say, oh, Jeanne, this is Bob. And you’re like, hello, Bob. And how, what brings you here?

Jean : And what sign are you, Bob? Do you know your moon sign?

Alison : You’re so good at it. I’m like, hi, Bob.

Jean : Okay. I think we’re going to drive our listeners nuts, but that’s so not true, Alison, you are a great speaker.

Alison : I think … I learned from you.

Jean : Oh my goodness. Okay, well, we learn from each other, but you you are great on your own.

Alison : Well thank you. Thank you so much. I just mainly stayed by the food area where I feel most comfortable.

Jean :  me too. I was by the bar where I’m most comfortable.

Alison : It was truly a lovely, lovely night. And speaking about learning, we are going to learn a lot today, aren’t we?

Jean : We are. Because we are speaking to Anne.

Alison : Sanderson.

Jean : Right.

Alison : Who was recommended by a friend of ours.

Jean : Beth.

Alison : Beth. Right. And, uh, there she’s with an organization, or she founded an organization called, Thinker Analytics.

Jean : Correct. And and I think their philosophy, their mission is excellent because goodness knows, we people need to know how to think in a productive and informative and clear way.

Alison : Exactly. And so it’s a lot about critical thinking, which I’m not even sure I fully understand that. And also, um, argument mapping. Yeah. So I’m really interested to hear what she says. So then we can…. You and I can get some really good arguments and just map them out.

Jean : Exactly. That that’s my goal, right?

Alison : That’s it. That’s what we’re living for. Well, here she is, Anne Sanderson.

Alison : Hi. How are you?

Anne: Fine. Thank you.

Jean : Great. Well, thank you for making time to be with us.

Alison : I’m Alison.

Anne: Oh, nice to meet you. Yeah.

Jean : And I’m Jean.

Anne: Okay, great. Well, we’ve all read our website, so…

Alison : That’s right.

Anne: I’m Anne. Um. And I’m the executive director of this of this organization. And, um. Yeah, your your whole philosophy and approach to, uh, human beings really is kind of, uh, wonderful and, you know, very Uplifting. So. And we don’t usually have, um, interviews with or podcasts with people who are taking that approach. Um, usually it’s, you know, in academia. So this is going to be really fun. I’m looking forward to it.

Alison : Thank you for saying that. We we looked at your website, and I have to say, it’s kind of amazing, and I’m so curious to actually understand what it all means.

Anne: Yeah, I think you and many other people, I think it’s part of our project, is just messaging the deficit in critical thinking skills in, uh, I would say this country, but I would probably, I think probably the whole world in some, in some ways, just with technology and changes in the way people learn and classrooms and interactions with screens, all of the things we know about and have known about for a long time. But Thinker Analytics is is really trying to give people these cognitive skills, these skills of critical thinking that are just so important to confidence and, uh, kind of respectful interaction.

Jean : I mean, right out the gate that that is so important to, to really teach someone how to think. It it reminds me of that slogan. I don’t know if you know this. It was the, um, the American, but it was a mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Anne: Yes, I remember that. Yeah. Um.

Jean : Um, the Negro fund, the American Negro.

Anne: Yes. Way, way back when. Indeed. Yes. And, um.

Jean : And rather than just. It sounds like, just hear, memorize this, memorize that. You’re really, uh, giving people  the best tools, how to use this phenomenal mind that we’ve been born with.

Anne: I hope so. I think that and just, uh, just agency in your in your life, um, if you have these critical thinking skills and sometimes people want to develop the whole child and, and, um, in emotion and, uh, feelings and we are so behind that. Um, but also having these kind of cognitive skills that I think are connected. But I can’t explain how from all my years of teaching, but having these cognitive skills, skills, kind of these intellectual skills of logic and reasoning. I think that’s got to be one of the underpinnings of a, of a confident thinker, um, and a respectful thinker.

Alison : What actually is critical thinking?

Anne: Well, this is a great question. That doesn’t and I’m not saying that in a kind of a cliche way. Um, I was just reading another article because we’re about to do a partnership, um, working with AI and trying to use AI in a really positive way to, to help students think critically. The definition is simply not pinned down. I think it’s because, like many terms, it is a term that has an umbrella of meanings. Um, it just has many, many meanings and people squish them all in there. But um, really, for the purposes of what we do and many people who use the word critical thinking, technically, I would say it is the, uh, it’s the skills associated with argumentative reasoning, which is reasoning logically, um, and, uh, using relevant and true, um, evidence and  inference to make a good argument. That’s what critical thinking is at its kind of its core. And then it makes you better decision maker. Problem solver. Um, you know, all of the things negotiator, all of the things that you use and extend those skills extend out to make people more reflective and kind of precise when they think.

Alison : I have to say, I love you a little bit more because you said sqush.

Anne: Well, I work with philosophers who are interestingly, very much computational people, um, and computer scientists. I taught English and theology, so.

Alison : Oh.

Anne: And raised four children. So the word squash has a very special, I’m sure.

Alison : I love that.

Anne: Your parents, you know, it has a very special meaning. Yeah.

Alison : How do I know that I’m not, or I am critical thinking?

Anne: These are really insightful questions. I think, um, probably — A,  you’re you’re you you probably don’t know if you’re not critical thinking. Um, I think critical thinking requires, um, a word I used before, which is precision of what you hear and kind of patience to process it accurately and then respond. Um, and it happens in many different contexts. So if you’re just critical, if you’re thinking to yourself, um, you’re reflecting on what you read, um, and you’re making inferences that are, um, that are true, as I said, and accurate. And then you are applying that thinking to maybe a problem or making an association with something else, um, and bringing that together or synthesizing it into a, a new idea or a clarifying idea. All of these things are so abstract, by the course and very hard to understand. I’m grateful for this podcast just to refine that message, because as I said, when you talk to academics, they have a sense of this critical thinking definition. But I have to say, I think part of the problem with critical thinking is we don’t have a really, uh, a really condensed definition that will help people understand what it is. What what I think is helpful when I talk to people is, it’s a very active kind of thinking. Um, if you are an athlete or you, you work out. It’s kind of like active thinking because you have to be going back and forth, and you’re checking yourself to make sure you’re you’re accurate and your logic is solid. And there are actual measures of whether or not you’re doing it well. Um, so, uh, it’s less interpretive at its core.

Alison : Oh. That’s interesting.

Anne:  and more precise. Yeah.

Jean : Anne, how do you feel, or what do you notice in people’s thinking? Like an average person. Like what’s your your sense of how people think?

Anne: I, uh you mean the maybe the problem we’re trying to solve?

Jean : Yes.

Anne: Would be, I think what happens is that, um —and of course, siloing makes this worse, just obviously… Um, but you approach a conversation or a text, um, with some kind of assumption, um, about what you’re about to hear. Um, and that gives you then you’re predisposed to having a certain interpretation of what you hear. So, um, slogans can do this. We do it in the course where we have what you were talking about before, a slogan or a powerful phrase that kind of bends your thinking, uh, in a certain way. Um, and I think that’s what happens. People enter conversation without, uh, the idea that you’re going to learn something from it, the conversation. But the idea that you just want to put your, uh, position forward and that, um, act is honestly where we are with polarization and so on, because it just shuts things down. It doesn’t open your mind. Um, and one thing I actually was reading about that I was going to say, but make me pause if I’m talking too much.

Alison : No, you’re great.

Anne: I’m not prone to that. Okay. Um, is that the word argument, um, comes from a Latin word that means clear, white and illuminating. And what argument has come to me…So when we go to people, the first thing they think about their slant on argument is that it’s fiery, incendiary, frustrating, full of falsities. Everybody, you know, comes to a discussion that’s going to be an argument like that, where the definition is really about disagreeing with people to get all sides. So you’re somehow enlightened or you gain some illumination on an issue. So it’s really the act of learning. And so what we’re trying to do is get that definition forward instead of the first definition in dictionaries right now, which is a fight. And that’s where the course starts, is just making that distinction and letting people feel comfortable in a new definition.

Alison : That’s so that’s so interesting. And I think, you know, we talk about this a lot with our guests about curiosity. And it sounds like that’s sort of what you’re referencing that like right now I’m going to just get my point across to Jean as opposed to really being curious about Jean. right?

Anne: It’s spot on.

Alison : Okay.

Anne: Curiosity is spot on. Yeah.

Alison : So here we are at Thanksgiving, and we have family members from all different backgrounds. What tips can you say to me to get through that dinner without jumping over the table and throwing mashed potatoes?

Anne: Okay, this is the hard part of Thinker Analytics. So I and I will bore you. But that is a trope and I love the trope. We even have something on our website around Thanksgiving, so for those crazy conversations. Um, but what our whole mission is to give people the skills so that when they walk into that conversation, they will be, um, they will be calm because they will be listening for the argument, they’ll be listening for the way the person’s reasoning and be able to calmly tell them where they disagree. Not that they’re wrong, but where they disagree and why. And you do that with this visualization process, with argument maps. And that’s the bread and butter of what we do– is train and the students train and they practice and they practice with these argument maps so they understand how arguments work. So you’ll enter that Thanksgiving conversation with the confidence to listen to someone that you disagree with. And also just the kind of respect for the moment when you can be curious about their position. Um, but you referenced learning. I mean, listening, and that’s, the key part of curiosity, because if you’re curious but you’re not really listening and responding to exactly what the person’s saying, conversations aren’t going to go anywhere.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : That is so true.

Alison : And I’ve been in those.

Anne: So have I,  many times.

Jean : Yeah. And, you know, there’s a certain quality of a conversation when someone is thinking mindfully, they have an open mind, you know, you can you just –there’s a depth to that conversation. And I and I love it sounds like that’s what you’re, you’re helping people to to expose. So who are your clients?  Are you in universities like, who comes to you?

Anne: Um, you all ask the best questions. So we started in high school because I was a high school teacher. And what we soon found is that high school teachers couldn’t teach reasoning because, they were never taught reasoning. So reasoning skills are not taught as a discrete skill set in most schools. Um, so we pivoted to higher ed, where professors have have really treated reasoning as something they have to do because they’re writing dissertations. And that’s going to be, uh, how they make a living. Um, and so that’s where primarily we work, um, with those folks and with, um, you know, private schools at the secondary level that have the resources and, uh, maybe a philosopher on staff that can that can help with the reasoning part. So, um, yeah, mindfulness is very interesting to me. I mean, if we all had mindfulness exercises before entering even the realm of reasoning, it would just be so much better. It’s just a calming down part. But that’s not what we do. We really do the the cognitive part. So we’re mostly in higher ed and, um, uh, you know, our ambition is to go all the way to elementary at some point.

Jean : Right.

Alison : Because I think that would really help with the bullying situation. What you’re discussing.

Anne: Yeah…Because you just if you really engaged in arguments with people, um, and you’re thinking about the structure of what they’re saying at that level, um, you will, you will be, um, you will like them because they’re just another human being with a different point of view. And you’re looking at at something that isn’t the topic. It’s more how the topic is being addressed. Rest and you’d be shocked at how many people struggled to do that.

Alison : Really?

Anne: Yeah.

Alison :  they struggle with what though… they struggle with seeing each other as as just a human being with a different point of view?

Anne: I think so, but going back, I don’t think I was clear. I think the struggle is, uh, separating the the structure of the argument, the truth of the evidence, the strength of the inference. That’s an argument map from how the person feels about the topic, from the topic itself. So when we do a death penalty topic in an argument map, if people are against the death penalty, they can’t really enter the structure of the argument and say, whoa, this is a really good argument, even though it’s arguing for the death penalty. They can only slant to their point of view, and we really have to tutor them. No you’re not you’re not looking at the topic. You’re really looking at the structure of the argument. And that takes a lot of training.

Alison : Wow, that’s so interesting. Yeah, I kind of love that.

Jean : Do you think it’s it’s where does debate, the word debate come in to your field of study?

Anne: Yeah, we we’ve worked, you know, our, uh, when we started, some of our great, uh, graduates and undergraduates that worked with us were debaters because, they were naturally interested in arguments. But they are, um, do either of you have debaters in your or were you debaters?

Alison : Yes.

Anne: Um, I had great arguments with our world class debaters, um, about persuasion being a good thing or a bad thing. So if you’re trying to persuade someone, you might pull out all sorts of tactics to get them to believe what you think. Um, which is fine. That’s how good argue arguers work. But for students to think that winning is the end of an argument is not what we want to do. We want them to think that learning more about the topic. And both are right. It’s just two different goals. So yes, we’ve worked with debate and but it uh, yeah, but we’ve we uh, depart a tiny bit where our goal is for the skills. So the skills for us is to open your mind and the skills for them is to persuade, um, the win, that’s all..right.

Alison : Um, so how do you know? You said a minute, a little while ago. How do we know that news or facts that we have are the  truth? How do you know a reliable source…. Like I feel like now I’m inundated with, you know, very disparate things on what should be facts, and how do I know what’s reliable and what’s not.

Anne: Yeah, they’re really good um, resources for, uh, understanding whether or not your evidence is, uh, is true. Um, whether or not your facts are true. Um, I know Stanford has a really good program for high school students and college students to to help people. And I’m sure there’s startups doing that all the time because it’s a common problem. Um, and we could do argument maps saying, you know, where you’re checking your sources through one of those filters. Um, because that is very, very important. But I think really the, the hardest thing that we do that is people are not familiar with is the relevance of the claims, is the inference. Understanding how inference works is kind of the muscle of argumentation. That is how the one claim connects to another. Um, is the connection strong? Does it make sense? And a lot of bad arguments, um, and arguments that mislead people have bad inferences. They they just they’re not giving you something relevant, um, or untrue premises, untrue claims. But that’s kind of the, uh, we don’t do that truth finding because that’s a, that’s a whole skill in itself. And I’m sure there are lots of organizations that do that better than we do.

Alison : You watch the news?

Anne: Yep.

Alison : And so you watch the news or you read the news and so do you sit there and think to yourself, what.. Like do you argument map what you’re watching?

Anne: It’s hard to do with, uh, with the natural language. It’s hard to map something absolutely. But yes, I think about how their arguments are put together or how they leave things out is another problem to to give a slant. Even, you know, great media outlets do it, um, or throw things into this… You begin to be able to vet arguments and see tactics that people use, even in straight reporting. Yeah. Just to just so you have an angle. Um, I think what it did for me over all these years is look at my be able to reflect on my own assumptions about things and understand where my own, uh, biases set and, um, and just evaluate them more carefully. Yeah.

Jean : I remember my my husband would watch a lot of news. All sorts, not just one news station.

Anne: Yes, yes.

Jean : He was a great critical thinker, but he also would be very aware of when someone answered the question and when someone you know was really a pro at kind of.

Alison : Like finagled.

Jean : Finagled it and got out of the question or… Oh, I know you’re asking me about the budget, but I’m going to talk about immigration now. And, you know, he he was like, uh, he lost my vote… He should have answered the question because he…

Anne: That’s brilliant. Um, and I know he was brilliant, but that’s brilliant because that’s the best example I can think of, the most glaring example of weak inference, that is not connecting one thing to another with strength. You’re not connecting that question. You’re deflecting that question. So in a really broad sense, that’s a weak, that’s weak inference. And it really does enable, um, bias. And, you know, uh, just that kind of deflection is, is people are masterful at it. Um, but a lot of people don’t know how to read it. So once you understand the the importance of relevance, you can say, well, that wasn’t answering the question at all. Where did that come from? Um, and that’s a good disposition to have because then you can do that, you can be more critical, that’s critical thinking right there.

Alison : And we looked up, um, argument mapping, which my, my son had heard about, you know.

Anne: Oh, nice.

Alison : But but I had not really, and boy, it’s hard. It’s like not a ..it’s not like something you’re going to pick up today. You know it’s a…

Anne: Yeah it is really hard. What I am so proud of with the philosophers that I work with is they operate at such a high level, argument mapping is really hard, but they have distilled it in our course to the most basic elements. So really it’s just delivering a vocabulary and a way of thinking about arguments. And hot topics are in our course in a in a systematic way. So that’s I’m so glad you looked it up, because we, we do have debates about this when you can create your own argument map. You’re very you’re at a very high level of reasoning by the end of our course and the advanced content, you can do that. Um, but you’re still going to, it’s still going to be hard, like a math problem. Um, but yeah. And so what we do now, we use a lot of ready made maps just to give people training in how to think about an argument. I always tell people it’s like those books how things work.  Argument map is a great is a great tool for showing people how an argument works, kind of the mechanics of it, like a diagramming a sentence in grammar.

Jean : Right.

Alison : So if you’re going to do right now an argument map for dummies, could you give us an idea of because I’m, you know, I’m a little older than college age and I would love to learn and take away something from talking to you that I can actually perhaps use. Is there a way that you have something like that?

Anne: Um, we do. The best thing for me to do would be to send you a map to look at. Like to describe a map is not really doing it’s work. Um, so the best thing to do is to post a map, um, where you can see the lines and so on. And that’s what the course does… It’s a slow unfold of what a full map would look like with objections and co premises, which is where bias sits. Um, but it is a sequential course and it’s super condensed, super, super short for, for the skill that you get. Um, and the other thing I just have to say not as an advertisement but as an, as an element of our course, is that it’s done on that mastery learning so that students have to practice and then pass a check, a mastery check, demonstrate the skill, and then they move on and they have to pass the mastery check it in 90%, which is really hard.

Alison : Yeah.

Anne: Student after student after student is able to do this because they have to learn it. So they do. It’s a little bit Khan Academy uses that kind of technique. Um, so, uh, I’m trying to think so, if you said, um, the the death penalty, um, the death penalty should be banned. Okay. And then you set your, your inference line. What do you think a supporting idea would be for– if you were saying to me, you know what? The death penalty should be banned.

Jean : Um.

Alison : I guess I guess I, I guess the things that come into my mind is, um, it cost too much money. It’s cruel. It’s sort of like, uh, do what I say, not what I do, you know?

Anne: So that’s three. Yes. And if a philosopher were doing this with us, they would put these…. You gave me three reasons. Um, down below with the inference line. And then they would ask you to– they would flesh out some of those, um, they would ask you questions about them to make them far more specific. But it costs too much money would be, you know, that’s that’s a pretty strong reason you’d have to have a source for that and evidence for that. But, um, and that would be the inference line would lead to that would lead to that reason.

Alison : That’s interesting.

Anne: And, you know,  it is technical. But all I can say is these people are like magicians. They’re so good at it, that they can take it to its absolute bare bones to teach anyone how to do it. And only an expert can do that. I couldn’t do it. I’m not a philosopher.

Jean : Anne,  can like Alison and I take a class. Or is it…?

Anne: Yeah. You can. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So, we’re a nonprofit. I think you know that. Um, and but we we do charge, uh, students to take it. It’s below what we have to pay out, but, um, and I can just send you the link, and you can actually register as an instructor and take the course, poke around on the course. Take the course. Um, I don’t even think you have to pay right now, but we’re we’re in the midst of not only refashioning it, but getting AI integrated so it can help students. It can bring students through the critical thinking process. We want to make AI a really positive force. Um, we’re working with the professors doing a study on that this year. So, um, so I’m really happy to have you look at it and see it as it transforms.

Alison : But our listeners also look at it.

Anne: Absolutely. Anyone can pick it up and take it, uh, soon available on, you know, Barnes and Noble websites and things like that.

Alison : We’re so excited when we jump on each other. Go ahead..

Jean : I want to know, Anne… Do you do anything with the body or breathwork to help ground someone? Or do you really leave that alone?

Anne: We do not do that. I think in in our space, we just have so much respect for the people who do things well. Um, and so there I, my sister today is talking to someone in the mindfulness space. And as I said before, if people could enter a room where there’s going to be disagreement and do some kind of preparation of the body… Um, because I think the intellect and the body are so much more intertwined than we think. Yeah. Um, I, I, I’m excited about learning or making those partnerships happen because I’m, I’m a deep believer in that. Uh, just the physical the, the connection between the physical and the cognitive is just so important. So I’m I’m grateful for the question, and, um  i can’t wait to hear what my sister says. This woman that she’s talking to, uh in DC is, uh, she’s in that she does mindfulness with, um, primary school, elementary school kids. I’m  just so curious, because I don’t think it would be any different for people our age….i think we’re all we’re all needing some help in that, in that place.

Alison : I totally I totally agree with you. I’m interested in AI, you know, um, uh, I, I’m an actor also, and so AI has a lot of different, um, uh, things happening on the acting front that are frightening to an actor, you know? And so I’m wondering just from from this, is is AI…. Do you think I is thinking?

Jean : Um, that’s a very big philosophical question. Yeah. Um, and AI will get better and better and better. And the great and good luck that I’ve had is that our tech lead was an undergraduate, um, when I was working at Harvard, and he is a philosophy major, but he was, he’s a computer scientist, and he has been able to keep us at the edge of technology through our development… and that’s almost ten years.

Alison : Wow.

Anne:  He’s an expert in AI. I hope you interview him sometime. Stacy just interviewed him. He is a superstar because of his heart. He has an incredible….  he wants to make the world better, um, with technology. And he actually has a mind to do that. So he’s the one that is shepherding us through this AI, um, development. And so he knows we all know that calling it thinking is dangerous…. Um, and but we also know that anything new like this is going to cause a lot of angst, but it is probably inevitable. So trying to find its best iteration, its best self, is what we can do for people in the future. Um, so I don’t know. Again, I feel like I’m…. I guess it’s a podcast, but I feel like I’m talking a lot.

Alison : No, you’re so fascinating.

Anne: It’s about these people I’m working with are truly fascinating. Um, but what he thinks and what he is going to try to do with this professor is to make AI a coach for, um, pushing critical those critical thinking muscles. Um, and so it’s not going to be something where you spew a question and grab content. It’s going to be more of an interaction. Um, and that’s a little scary because it feels a little more human. Yeah. Like the machine is a human. On the other hand, if it can do that and if it can make people better critical thinkers, uh, that’s probably a good thing. So, um, but I hear you. It’s it’s intimidating.

Alison :   It has very serious implications on many levels. And serious is just meaning serious. Not like…

Anne: Yes. No. Yeah.

Alison : You know, what’s interesting is when you’re talking about, um, uh, critical thinking and discussions, I feel like my parents and grandparents were really good at talking with people that were very different than them, and then being able to eat dinner, like, then being able to go take a walk, like there wasn’t what’s happening now, which is like emotionally violent and sometimes physically violent. What happened?

Anne: I think… I hate to, I’m just not an expert in it. I think there are many, many more people in the world. So people are are around many more people.

Alison : Oh, that’s a good point.

Anne: I that’s the only thing and technology. Um, but that’s just written about and written about and written about. I think, um, some of the really interesting research is about attention span. So one of the, you know, just the, the byproduct or the collateral damage of technology is having no attention span. Um, you really do need to do good argumentation and listen to people and not storm away. I’m sure that Covid probably hurt a lot of just human to human interaction, um, and learning. So, I do think it’s a whole bunch of things. I think in history, these there are other times that have been like this, uh, and I yeah, I hesitate just because I don’t want to sound cliche or expert on it. I just…

Alison : No, we’re just interested, you know.

Anne: I know, I agree. I’m interested too.

Jean : What you just said about attention span. I even notice for myself because I spend more time on the computer than I like. And and it’s like, hurry up, hurry…. It’s like I have this motor in my brain. Quick, quick, go to this page. Flip over here. Go back here. And I don’t think that’s so great for us. And do you have any tips on how to strengthen our ability to focus?

Anne: This is just me. I’m a career educator. I think schools are going to become one of the most important spots for that kind, for any kind of work. I think they’re going to look very different. There’s going to be much more coaching and online learning, where you can bring in experts online to give you content and kind of motivation, motivation and great teaching skills. But it’s going to be we’re going to be teaching different things. We’re going to be teaching attention span, for example. And I think mastery learning is one of the great ways of doing that. It’s been around since the 70s. But if you can’t complete something until you show that you can do the skills, you’re absolutely forced to have the attention span to complete the different lessons. And when you if you do the course, even a few lessons, you’ll see why you have to practice and get a streak before you can move on. Then you you move on to another skill and you have to practice until you get a streak. So it’s kind of gamified. And then finally you take this mastery check that’s really hard. And most students whip through them and they get like a 60%, even if they’re brilliant and they’re curious.

Anne: They’re so mad. Our chat explodes with emojis. And why is it 90%? And it’s because they they won’t take their time and just plod through and get the skills. So the way that we’re going to, we’re going to have to give people exercises, students exercises that extend their attention spans. And what you said, maybe part of your being anxious is that you’re you know, you shouldn’t… this is, I’m speaking for me… I know I shouldn’t be doing that, but I’m going Instacart, uh, what can I get on? I mean, it’s unbelievable what I can do. Uh, in in a span of three minutes, I’ve been to 60 sites and gotten nowhere, and I know I shouldn’t be doing it. So that builds anxiety in people, I think, especially in our age group. But, um, yeah, there’s a lot of great. Do you know Jonathan Height? So and he has research on attention span, and they’re just saying, it is going to be the single most important thing for people to have coming out of their educations because of what’s working against us.

Jean : Yeah.

Anne: So I think there’s going to be very good training in extending your attention span… Thinker analytics– that mastery learning makes that happen.

Jean : Right. Excellent.

Alison : That’s you know, you are so.. I was a little afraid because, I thought this woman’s going to not be able to, like, deal with me..  (lots of people over talking on each other)……

Anne: I haven’t online shopped once during our whole conversation.  hahah I have to say though, I’m so grateful to talk to people who are excited about, um, just changing things in a really positive way. And that’s the sense I get from your website, like just opening it,  i feel really, um you’re just doing great work.

Alison : Well, so are you… I’m really interested. If you send us that link, we’ll include it in.  You’re fascinating. We just have two quick wrap up questions. What do you think inside wink means?

Anne: So as a former English teacher, I did think about these questions. I saw them in the email. Um, a wink is a gesture. Um, gestures are famous and famous moments in literature…. certain gestures… and I thought, wow, a wink has to do with insider understanding and, uh, humor. And it’s fast. A wink is so fast and so subtle. Um, and all of those things combined with inside, uh, I just thought it was, um, fun… and asking people to look interior, uh, and to think the interior, um, but in a kind of playful way. So I don’t know what it means, but I, I love I love it.

Alison : Yes. You’re right.

Anne: Oh, wow. Oh, good. I love it.

Jean : And you expressed it so beautifully.

Anne: Thank you. I know that I had fun, I went to the etymology of the word, like I did with argument. I was like, wow, what is a wink? And it’s a it’s pretty fun to go look at all the different… Where the wink.

Alison : You’re you’re wild. You’re amazing.

Jean : So in your in your world. And do you prefer cake, pie or ice cream?

Anne: That’s such a layup. I so prefer pie to any of those things.  I love pie. I love fruit, I love lemon meringue.  I don’t know why… I think it’s a texture thing… different textures in it.

Jean : Mhm.

Alison : Yeah.

Anne: For you all, and why do you ask that question? I’m really curious. I know we’re over time but…

Alison : No it’s fine.

Jean : It’s just a fun kind of… This is just we’re ending with dessert and…

Alison : And it’s funny, you get these very serious people talking sometimes, and then when we ask that question, you see a different side.

Anne: I’m sure. I’m sure. Yeah.

Alison : So people talk about their grandmas or bakeries or delis they like, you know, it’s fun.

Anne: You should keep a journal and figure out the patterns. That would be so interesting. Um, yeah, it’s a great question, I love it.

Jean : I think we get a lot of pies

Alison : Yeah, we get a lot of pies.

Jean : I think pie is the….

Alison : It’s something homey or something people…

Anne: And it’s hard.. If you’re a baker. It’s hard to make

Jean : Yes.

Anne: Oh my God…It’s just hard to make.

Jean : When they say easy as pie… I’m always like…you make a lemon meringue pie.

Anne:  yeah, you did that.    Indeed. I agree with you. So I appreciate a good pie for sure.

Alison : And thank you so, so much for your time.

Anne: This was really fun and I hope I just didn’t ramble ramble, ramble.

Alison : No, no.

Anne: You’re very patient.

Alison : Oh, you’re so interesting.

Anne: Yeah, well. Thank you.

Jean : Thank you, Anne.

Anne: All right. Take care.

Alison : Bye

Jean : Wow…I had really no idea what we were going to be talking about. And I did a little bit, but I really enjoyed that conversation.

Alison : I was kind of amazed because she’s so interesting, and what you just said coming up the stairs, living, talking about, living like a different life than me. Like she’s a different type of person. Like just her thinking in the way she speaks and all the knowledge. Like, I have good stuff going on and her good stuff is very different and interesting to me, right?

Jean : I don’t know about that. Alison, you, I, I consider you a very good, solid thinker.

Alison : Really?

Jean : Yeah I do. And I think, um, the questions you ask, I think she really appreciated them. And, um, I don’t, you know, I, I admire people that can think on their feet, ask great questions. It takes me a little more time. So it’s sort of like I feel like I missed the boat. But people that that are quick and and well, you know, don’t take it personally, but let’s, let’s look under the hood a little bit.

Alison : And I think..well Thank you. And I think that what my takeaways from this, if I, if I never looked it up at all ever again would be, be aware of your bias.

Jean : Sure.

Alison : Be aware of your bias. Be aware of your expectation when you’re meeting someone or listening to the news. And also remember curiosity because I thought what she said about, um, you’re really not looking at the message like you’re not looking at whether or not you agree on the death penalty should be or not be…. That’s not what it’s about. But is the person where’s the person coming from? Is it factual? I think that’s really interesting because then we would just be people with different ideas. It wouldn’t be so heated.

Jean : Yeah, I love I love that you said that. And I, I think also when she said like, just you don’t just okay, you someone says something and you believe it. Like you don’t have to disagree with it, but you can just sort of right.

Alison : Be an attention span. Yeah, I’m aware of that, that my attention span, you know, I’m taking pottery now and I realize I’m like, oh, just make the pot go make it like it like my patience has lessened than, than years ago. And I wonder if that is technology or age or just life. But I really want to get back to being thoughtful and listening and have some patience.

Jean : Yeah. Me too. And for me, I like going out in the garden or being in nature kind of just slows everything down and helps recalibrate that electronic doo doo doo. Quick, quick, quick. Um. And I don’t know, i think, however, you kind of calm your nervous system down is really beneficial.

Alison : Yeah. Really fascinating. Thank you so much. And I think your analytics and we’ll include the link that she sends to you if you’re interested. And if not, just, you know, be curious.

Jean : I love that. Yeah.

Jean : Be curious. Right.

Alison : Be aware of your bias. Really great. I hope we hope you enjoyed it.

Jean : Bye bye.

Jean: Here we go.

Alison : Here we are on an adventure.

Jean: We’re on an adventure with Kathleen Noone.

Alison : That’s right. This is one of our…. Well, I think you’ve known her the longest of all of us, right? Because you were… Were you? Was she in your foundations class at church?

Jean: No, no. But, uh, I did meet Kathleen at the church, and we became great friends. And we still are. I love her so much. She’s not only a friend, but a mentor and just a beautiful person inside and out.

Alison : And I met her through you. And, uh, she is so wonderful. And she is like a really great, well known actor. But it’s not like she’s stuck in that past incarnation of herself. Like when I met her, I was like, hey, you look so familiar. She’s like, yeah, I did some stuff on TV, like, do you know what I mean? Like, she was just so you know, I did All My Children. And then when, um, I had my birthday party and she was there, my friends were like, I can’t believe you sat me at Kathleen Noon’s table. Like they were so excited. You know, we have such good friends.

Jean: We do, we do. And and one of the things that’s so great about Kat is that she’s so grounded in her devotion and in her faith in the universal intelligence.

Alison : Well, let’s let’s give her a listen. Yeah, let’s listen to her.

Jean: Let’s?

Alison : Let’s let’s do it.

Kathleen : I’m so excited. This is so great, guys. It’s so great to see you both. And I love your haircut, allison, you got it. Cut.

Alison : You look beautiful.

Jean: You look stunning, Kathleen.

Kathleen : Uh, well, you know what you need to do. Write that down 100 times.

Alison : That’s true. I have so many of those things written. Kathleen looks beautiful.

Kathleen : Okay. You know, Jean did that once for me 100 times.

Jean: I took a card and I wrote… You are… What did I write? You are beautiful. A hundred times or something?

Alison : That’s so great. I love that. We’re so happy that you’re here talking to us on insidewink, Kat. You are like one of our dearest, bestest friends ever. And, um, we just wanted to talk a little bit, like, about your acting career and then where you are now.

Kathleen : No, no.

Alison : And we’re done.

Kathleen : Curtain.

Alison : That’s right. You, you played on All My Children.

Kathleen : Oh, God. Yes.

Alison : Ellen. Ellen, right?

Kathleen : Yes, I did that for 11.5 years.

Alison : And people still… I’ve been with you in public where people still come up to you and talk about it.

Kathleen : That amazes me. That just amazes me. I can hardly remember at this age. But no, I am thrilled. I had a gal the other day, Jen, who works for the Motion Picture Association. She kind of she runs it and, uh, she was passing me in front of the big five and she said, oh my God, Kathy. And I said, yes. Oh my goodness. And she said, I gotta tell you something. What is it? She said many years ago, and we’re talking about 20, 25 years ago she said, whenever I saw you always brought such light and calmed me down. She was just starting her career. And I go, isn’t it amazing how you touch people’s lives in our professions, which whatever they are, and there’s something beyond ourselves, small selves, that somehow permeates somebody in a way that they need…. That’s so extraordinary to me. And that’s happened a lot on All My Children. When I was doing these scenes with the wonderful and late Mark Lamura on drug addiction. And we went through a whole process of the rehabilitation and the confrontational scenes. And in all humility, they were some of the most strongest scenes I’ve ever done. But it was the gift. It gave me the gift of an Emmy Award. And that came and people would write in and say, oh my God, I was on the way to going to a, um, uh, pick up some more drugs on the street. And I always watch All My Children.

Alison : Wow.

Kathleen : And I saw that scene and it stopped me, and I went, wow.

Jean: Yeah.

Kathleen : Of the things that we if we give ourselves and we each get to be of service in a different way, and it was always important to me to be of service no matter what I did, you know, even in our crazy professions, Alison.

Alison : What attracted you to acting, do you think? Kat. Like what?

Kathleen : Survival… I had family.

Jean: Because I read that you wanted to be a singer?  What did you..

Kathleen : That’s what I started out as.  Doing singing. Um, But  I’m talking where I was a kid. That’s how I started in choirs. And then I started doing musical comedies, that kind of thing, which were great fun. But what I discovered is that the musicals that I love so much didn’t give me the depth in acting that I wanted. I knew how to sell a song. I knew how to get out on stage and razzmatazz and bring the energy up. But I thought, what am I doing? What’s what’s behind all of this? So that’s when I applied. I was in I started graduate school and I applied to go to USM in Dallas, Texas, and um, I was accepted, but I had $50 to my name and, uh, I went down there on a wing in a prayer.  A wing and a prayer, but also because this is the combination of me following my instincts. Something inside my heart was telling me to do this. As scared as I was, I kept putting one foot in front of the other. Went down there, um, was introduced to the head of the department. Mr. Hobgood was his name, he said, welcome, you’ll start your classes. I said, no, you don’t seem to understand. I don’t have any money to go to school. But I thank you for accepting me. He coughed and he sputtered a bit and he said, well, you know, when you save money you will have to then come back. I mean, the door will be open for you. I said, thank you very much. I stepped outside the department and I thought, now what do I do? Well, in my head, I’m supposed to be here. I went out and started to look for an apartment, which I couldn’t afford.

Alison : Wow.

Kathleen : So I thought, just keep moving forward. I was staying over at a friend’s house and I stayed overnight. Next morning I got up and I said, okay, what am I supposed to do here? And I got get yourself dressed and go back over to that department.

Jean: Wow.

Kathleen : I walked myself over there. I stood in the center of the room, and because they had all these, they were building a new theater. So I stood in the center of this room were all these teacher’s desks were. And I’m saying to myself, I’m not moving till I know what to do. And at that moment Hobgood comes out of his office and he sees me, and he says, you come over here. I said, okay. I marched myself over there thinking, Oh God. And he said, one of our graduate students decided not to return. We’re giving you his full scholarship and a monthly stipend.

Alison : That’s amazing. Yeah.

Kathleen : I mean, I’ve had moments like that all through my life, and they got me where I needed to go for the next step in my career.

Alison : Right.

Kathleen : You know, so even to when it was time to finish it, you know, as I got older and, uh, the jobs weren’t coming as quickly because I was getting older and, and, uh, they were moving on to other people and I thought, well, what are you going to do about this? Well, I sat and I thought about it, and I happened to go down to hear, uh, Michael Beckwith at Agape, which is a spiritual center here in Los Angeles. And my friend Cynthia James was singing there… And, um, I ran up to her and I said, how you doing? I said, tell me about this school, SMU, in Santa Monica. Uh, I mean, USM, University of Santa Monica. And she said it’ll be the best gift you can give to yourself. So I thought, like, an hour on it, and I got that hunch to apply. I was already a week late to enroll in the program for that year, but I called them. They said, get your transcripts in. We have a make up class this Thursday. It’s exactly what I did. I was working on another show at the time. I think it was Sunset Beach for Aaron Spelling, and, um, I was accepted in two days. I went down there and went back and got this other master’s degree in spiritual psychology, which was exactly the right thing for me to do at that point in my life. At that point, I think I was 50, 55 around there. And, uh, I thought I got to do this to make that transition. As I’m getting older, because the business isn’t kind to older women and as many as the breakthroughs as have been made for women over the past five years or so, as far as advancement in producing and directing and all of that.

Kathleen : Uh, at my time when I was doing this, there was a lot of help out there for women, and there wasn’t a lot of support, even from each other. Yeah. You know, so I felt as though, okay, I got to transition my life again, but this time I wanted to make it about a deepening in my own learning because I thought, I don’t want to go into the latter years of my life feeling any kind of disappointment or bitterness, or I haven’t cleaned my own house, you know? I don’t want those things lagging on because they can just eat me apart. I am just a highly sensitive person, uh, being trained as an actor, i’m emotional and I thought, you have got to have command of yourself better, in a better way and keep that. What we learn in spiritual circles, that witness that distance saves your life. You know that. We get it. I know, Allison, you’ve experienced the highs and lows, the ups and downs, the yes, the no’s. And many times there’s more nos than there are yes’, and I feel so, i have to teach myself to say yes to myself. And in doing that, uh, it’s still a learning process, but I said yes to learning in the consciousness of my spiritual growth. Always been my saving grace. No matter what show I was doing, you know.

Alison : wait. Are you saying that you’ve always felt this way all through?

Kathleen : Yeah.

Alison : Wow.

Kathleen : Since I was a kid, I always had some kind of calling from spirit to, I guess, the way I describe it, that keeps nudging me forward, you know? And sometimes, you know, I’m not reading it right. And I go, so where are you?

Alison : Yeah, yeah.

Kathleen : Hello? Do you hear me now?

Alison : Yeah.

Jean: Because how you addressed going to the university and not having, uh, the money and that’s— you were attuned to listening to to your inner, to that still small voice. And most of us have not been raised to do that.

Kathleen : Yes. I, I don’t think any of us are. Yeah. I’m sorry to make that blanket statement, but in reality, it’s a whole different learning line because I can see how we are all distracted by the world. Yeah. You know, I was recently at an airport, and I’m telling you to see the mass of humanity all, um, attracted by the glitters. Yeah. Well, let me look here and there and do this and do that and…. Oh, now I have to get on a plane. Now I have to do this. And I thought, what a microcosm this is.

Alison : Yeah, yeah.

Kathleen : To see, you know, how we are all caught up in that. Because the world being in the world demands it. You know, if I, I don’t know what you think about that, but I just feel we have to be disciplined within ourselves to say, wait a minute. Stop the world. I want to get off for a little while and see who I am again. And I hope people will take that chance to do that and respect it and know it’s okay, because the Universe has got our back. Yes, I really believe that.

Jean: And you have to trust that. Yeah, and really, really trust that and have, uh, and you do. And you did. And you do now, Kathleen. You know, your life is a beautiful reflection of your inner knowingness and your love and  everything — because you you feel very grounded. You feel benevolent, you feel and you are wise, you know, and, um.

Kathleen : Thank you. Thank you. Well, I think I stay on the learning line. That’s the one thing I– it is about controlling the mind from being sucked in to fear thoughts from, uh, you know, when you’re in an atmosphere, as we are now as a nation and in a world where there’s a lot of fear out there, we see a lot of pictures of that fear. If you ever watch television or even see the movies because they keep demonstrating the fear. And I think to myself, well, where is the message of hope? So we got a slight one with the election of the new pope, who seems to be a person of grace and intelligence and really on the ground as far as the previous pope, uh, for being of service and being a consciousness of service. You know, just as the Dalai Lama and many other spiritual leaders. But I thought, okay, let’s keep this ray of hope that we have now to move forward in some way. And but that requires me to control my thoughts, to really whenever I hear, you know, frightening thoughts for myself, I go, particularly as I’m getting older. I find myself really attaching to a mantra. You know, I am in the center spirit. I’m living in grace. I’m creative, you know. Where do you want my creativity now? Universal force. I keep those mantras- Ram, RAM, RAM, RAM, going because it gets my mind off the fear thoughts.

Alison : Yeah.

Kathleen : Because in reality, the things I’ve observed, when am I really not taken care of? And I think that’s part of my role here now. Um, and this is a grace for all of us. I think as we get older. I may not be able to, you know, get on the stage and do performances and do all of that About anymore, but I sure can support the creative efforts of the people around me. I sure can, every single day, no matter what I’m doing, I allow myself to keep a consciousness and an energy field of love to every person I pass. Every person I interact with. And I have had to make a big change to realize that my way forward is not to be the one performing and letting that energy be where I teach through people for certain plays or roles that I’ve done. But it’s more of an inner knowing, an inner energy and let that energy do the work I’m supposed to just show up in kindness? Loving kindness as  Ram Dass says. Just be in loving kindness. And that’s that’s a real lesson for each of us, don’t you feel?

Alison : Oh, yes.

Jean: Yes, Kathleen.

Alison : Oh my gosh. And it’s amazing to me to hear you and know your past and see that you did not get caught up in all the glamour, glitter, uh, competition, anger, fear of the profession that you were very successful in.

Kathleen : Well, when I was younger, I did– I was more fearful and well, I remember being at an audition for the equity lead back in New York City, and I was sitting in the waiting room, and there’s a girl sitting next to me, and, you know, you sit there with your picture and resume and there’s a girl sitting next to me, and she was looking like, Like this. And she started to lean in, and she then started to write on a piece of the back of her resume some of the things that I had on my resume.

Alison : Wow.

Kathleen : Isn’t that interesting. You know, we were like 27, 28. And at that time I had because I worked in a lot of repertory companies prior to that. So I had something on my resume, and I thought the problem with that is she’s going to go in there, and what if they say, oh, tell me about that play you did, and she never did it. And what a perfect example of all of us in the feminine, not knowing who we are and letting that fear control us and think I’m not enough. Well, who she was, who she was, who I am, who you each are is really enough from the beginning. But I didn’t know that. And maybe that was part of my learning. I had to keep on, I can do this role, i can prove it. I always prepared well, worked very hard, tried to make whatever I did good. Sometimes I failed, sometimes I made it, you know, um, and to live with those both sides of that edge of performance is a challenge. Yeah, but it teaches you toughness against your fears.

Alison : Yeah. Mhm.

Kathleen : You know what I’m saying.

Jean: Yeah. Yeah.

Kathleen : So I think this was the right profession for me, I’m glad I did it. Um even before I did this I went on line to look at my own website to see what are the things I’ve done??   I thought, oh my God, you really had a career.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean: It was wonderful reading about you, Kat. And I feel like I know you so well, and I was like, oh my goodness.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean: Um, while we’re, we’re talking about, you know, spirituality and everything. Can you share with our listeners, um, your meeting with Muktananda? Because I feel that that pearl of wisdom that he offers you, that he says to you is is so helpful.

Kathleen : Oh, thank you. Thank you for that. Yes. I, um, uh, was in New York City, and the way it started out was I was a rainy morning in New York City. I wanted to get a spiritual book. So I lived in the Upper West Side. I went down to, um, the village, and I thought, I really gotta find a store that’s going to have a good spiritual book, you know? And so I just started walking the streets down there, uh, 14th Street, I got off, I got up, walked a couple of blocks, turned, just turned right again my instinct. And there in front of me, about 100ft was a sign. Books. And it was in the basement of a brownstone. So I thought, oh, right up my alley. Got in there, walked inside, was looking around. And this guy with a big gray hair walked over to me and looked at me. And I said, he says, can I help you? And I said, yes, I’m looking for a good spiritual book. And so he says to me, hmm. And he looks at me and he looks at me and he looks at me, and I’m going getting a little uncomfortable, you know. So he says to me, I got just the book. So he, um, goes over there, stands, comes back with a book called, uh, The Miracle of Love. It was a book on Baba Neem Karoli, and I take it and go home. As I’m sitting in my bed at night getting ready, propped up, all ready to read my book… Um, and I’m reading the book, and I turn one particular page. Chapter nine. Saw this picture of Baba Neem Karoli –  Ram Dass, teacher, and I got a lightning bolt that went from the top of my head down to the base of my spine and back up again, and I was gone. I was out of my body. Came back about 15 minutes later, looked at the time and it said 15 minutes had gone by and I was in a state of ecstasy. I went, oh, this is good. May I have the privilege of meeting an enlightened being this time on earth? This time around, because he already passed. Three days later, I’m being interviewed… Uh, I was on All My Children at the time, by Joan Goldstein. And I start to talk to her about this, and she says, oh my goodness, she says, Muktananda is in town. I said, who? And she said, Muktananda. Oh, she says, well, they have an ashram up on 86th Street. Guess where I was that night? I was over at 86th Street and they said, they’re having a weekend retreat. Guess where I was? I finished shooting on Thursday. Friday morning I’m up there and I’m standing on the Darshan line. Joan is guiding me and she’s talking to me–  and a Darshan is when you go down in front of the guru and you bow out of respect and just say hello…That’s all it is. So I’m there. I’m on my knees. I take my bow and Joan says to me, I’m going to tell him you’re on television. And I said, oh, God, do not tell him that. That is nothing. I’m in front of the guru. What the hell are you doing? I don’t know what’s going on here. I’m singing mantras, I never heard anything, so I am on my way down… I hear her say this and I’m thinking, oh, God, I’m in such trouble. I come back up and he looks at me and he does this, points his finger at me and beckons me to come to him. So I on my knees, I scoot over and he takes my hand and he looks into my eyes and he gave me a great lesson. And it was this –  don’t you understand, that if it’s not important to you, why would it be important to me? It sounds like a simple phrase, but the energy of that Truthful, authentic moment hit me right here. Knocked me back on my heels and I went, oh my God. I got one of the greatest lessons in false humility I could ever have gotten, because he’s teaching us everything you have and are is a gift from the spirit. Celebrate it..  let it be who you are, you know?

Kathleen : And so that was, I think, a road for me to follow as far as opening up, not out of arrogance, because I always believed whatever  talents I have were a gift, were a gift. Even the shows that I didn’t do as well or their performances I didn’t like. They were all a gift to me in my learning, my growth and my learning how to be at one with spirit in my creativity, you know, to get out of the way. And I had several performances, particularly on the stage, in one on television, where I got out of my way and I felt it. And the interesting thing is, when I walked off the stage and finished the performance, other actors and people would come up to me and say, boy, your performance tonight was just extraordinary. And I said, I know I had nothing to do with it. hahah I got out of my way. I got out of my way and let that energy flow through. And I don’t think in our society we are patient with that, in giving each other that chance to have it. You know what it’s like, Allison, when you’re on a set and you you got to get the scene in, you know? So you got to hope you’re doing everything right. Whereas on the stage you have more leeway. You really do. And sometimes when you’re up and you’re speaking, I know the two of you have had that opportunity to speak in front of people, and there are times when you just feel the flow is working. And that’s always been the carrot at the end of the stick for me. Yeah. Having those experiences because I had the blessing of having them because I met spirit and said yes. Then opening up like that just allows this newness to come to me. And sometimes I catch it, sometimes I don’t. So I’m giving it again. You know, I find different ways to work it through.

Alison : That’s such a beautiful story. Because you’re right, it does sound really easy, right? But so many times that I think I diminish myself or things or I say, oh, you don’t want, you know, oh, it just was this or it just like I kind of… And I do that hand wave, you know. Yeah.

Jean: It’s like pushing, pushing the energy away of receiving something like.

Alison : oh, It’s not a big deal. Yeah, I think that’s such a great lesson. And you’re right. It’s not an arrogance.

Kathleen : No, it’s in humility of allowing.

Alison : Right.

Kathleen : Allowing that spirit to use you as a channel for whatever you’re going to do. And listen, there’s a lot of people out there…. And I remember when I started to talk about this, when I was on All My Children, and I was doing some interviews with some other actors from different shows, And this one actor really came after me. On air, you know. Well, aren’t you special getting all this? It’s a little much. I’m just doing my job. And I thought, that’s you. This is me, you know? And when I learned is I have to be discerning. I can speak to you, but recently, I have recognized that for all of us, we’re all being asked in this time of conflict to step forward. And don’t be afraid to speak of our divine feminine expression, which is what this is a part of. I feel you know that channel.

Alison : Yeah.

Kathleen : Giving and receiving.

Alison : What do you think? When do you feel right now in your life, your most honest, authentic self?

Kathleen : Well, I set an intention every day, my soul, to be authentically living in the energy of wisdom. You know, because I want to learn. I don’t want to leave this earth thinking, oh, God, I got to come back and do this again. No. Although next time I come back, I’d rather be an astrophysicist. Very creative.  hahah

Kathleen : And so, um, because the study of the stars and the cosmos teach me about spirit, you know. So, my intention is to try and stay in that authentic soul every day. But I had to learn that it was okay for me to speak up about who I am. And I’m still learning that. And I’m glad. I’m glad because you want to be discerning, and I want to be discerning and express myself in an authentic way. But I never want to offend somebody, you know? You know, that’s not my role. But what I learned is the stronger I stand up in my truth and follow that truth wherever I am, that keeps me healthy and whole, you know? And because of that, I feel more support in my life. And I have garnered people around me looking at you two. Um, who support my exploration without judgment. But you give me so much love to keep going. That is important for me because I don’t feel I had a lot of that in my life. You know, that kind of outward support. And I just accepted it and muscled my way through. At my age right now, it’s not about muscling my way through life. It’s about inspiring my way through life. And that’s the way I want to live now.

Alison : That’s beautiful.

Jean: And you do.

Alison : You definitely do.

Kathleen : Thank you.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison : It’s not even about age… That’s a great thing to hear at any age. That to be an inspiration to someone as opposed to muscling through is such a beautiful way to look at life.

Kathleen : Oh, yes. But, you know, and we all did this, I think because we all it cost us, you know, I had that mindset that I had to muscle my way through or one, you could fail or, you could be decimated, or you could be on your knees. And I’ve been on my knees, but I got myself up, you know, through certain incidences in my life. Uh, but what always brought me through, and that’s why I had to have a switch in my thinking, what always brought me through was my inner communication with that place of authenticity within me, which is loving, you know? And then I had the opportunity to look back and say, wait a minute, look at all those times that were extraordinarily challenging. You did come through them. I was not to leave this Earth. So you’re here now. What is next that you can do to bring grace and ease and be of service in somebody’s life. But now it’s the heart energy that makes that happen. Not, oh, I’ll do that, you know, I’ll straighten you out.

Alison : Right.

Kathleen :  oh my God. But you don’t, you know, you don’t do it out of arrogance. You’re doing it because you want to be of help, you know. And I’m looking at two beautiful souls right now who carry that with them all the time, as you do in your own ways. You do that. So that’s a grace.

Alison : I think I think the thing you taught me, Kat, um, was you can caretake other people, but not at your own expense.

Kathleen : Yes.

Jean: That’s so beautiful.

Alison :  I think you have definitely taught me that to just love myself through caretaking and loving other people, I don’t know, go down to the bone looking out for others when you’re, like, crawling along the sidewalk, you know?

Kathleen : That’s right you’re you’re not helping anybody. And you’re also showing, you know, your daughters, sons, whatever, how to do that in a respectful way to yourself and still be of great help to them. Because I truly believe in all our teaching and I love to teach and do things like that. But I find that our greatest lessons is how we each behave. Yeah. No matter what situation we’re in. Even when I was doing more performing and I was working with a particularly challenging actor, I thought, take a breath…. this person is going through some stuff. Get your way through, and if it gets too out of hand, then I will just have a conversation with the director and say, I just want you to know what’s going on, and I’m doing my best to work with it. That’s all you can do. You know?

Jean: I think for me, Kat, that was one of the things that I’ve picked up from you is, is having a really great attitude. And I feel when you say to me, oh, Jeanie, we’re going to go have an adventure. Yeah. It’s already like you’ve set us up for success.

Alison : Yeah!

Jean: No matter what!  you say that to me, and and I think to myself… That’s so great. And, um, I’m going to have an adventure today. Like, I love that because that kind of takes the burden off of life to coming from a –I have to get this done and get this done. I mean, there are many things we all have to get done, but if we have a really good attitude, I think that serves us. So I, I love that.

Kathleen : And you know, it. It brings out the best in the people that you meet. And I had that realization the other day going into a doctor’s office, and they got the parking attendant had said, um, uh, to me after I got out of the car and he said, so where are you going? The heart center? And I said, yes, I am, and I was feeling positive about it. He said, oh, I wish you well. And I thought, that’s where our angels show up during the day. People that you don’t know, he was in tune enough to say, where are you going, here.

Alison : Yeah.

Kathleen : And I told them authentically and he said, oh, well, I hope it all works out. I said, thank you. I know it will. And I went on, you know, and I just thought, it’s all around us. Our support is all around us. If we can look at it that way, you know, and not as you talked about, Alison, you know, being trapped into the burdens of and the distractions of life, of everybody pulling on you. You know what’s my center? And that’s why I think the practice of deep breathing is so important. When you’re in those moments of going, too many people get back to the breath, and as you get back to the breath, it gets you back to your center. I mean, you can look around and see where the graces are around you, even if it’s a dog jumping on your lap right at that moment, or you see a flower or me seeing hummingbirds. Whatever it is, you’re more attuned to where the support is all around us. And sometimes, and this is going to sound far out when I’m, you know, think I’m really lost somewhere. I look up and I see the trees either out the window or if I’m walking and all the branches are going almost like a wave.

Alison : Yeah.

Kathleen : And I go, look at that energy, honey, I’m walking down this street in goodness

Jean: Yeah, that is so great.

Alison : Kat, you’re great.

Jean: You’re so vivacious and beautiful.

Kathleen : Thank you. This is such a, um, a heart privilege to do this. Thank you. Thank you both.

Alison : Thank you so much.

Jean: Yeah, we are so grateful… Kathleen, to spend some time with you. And, um, we want to also know,  what does inside wink mean to you?

Kathleen : Oh, means you and me, babe. It’s between us. I got the goods. You got the goods, and we’re sharing it.

Alison : You’re so sassy. You really are. Yeah. And can you tell us? I know the answer…  but. Pie, cake or ice cream? Kat?

Kathleen : Oh, none of them are.

Alison : Let’s go take a look in your freezer. Yeah, right.

Kathleen : Oh, I’m not doing that. I’m being a good girl for a half second. Uh, it is ice cream!

Alison : What flavor, Kat?

Kathleen : Coffee ice cream.

Jean: And I don’t know if that’s an Irish thing.

Alison : I know, it’s so good though.

Jean: I know, like my mother. Yeah, my mother’s friend. You, uh, you’re all Irish. And that coffee ice cream.

Alison : It is so good, though. That Haagen-Dazs coffee ice cream.

Kathleen : And when they used to have coffee syrup.

Alison : Oh, yeah.

Kathleen : That’s the combination of those two. And I remember that…. My first experience with that, this is how much I remember. It was in high school when they used to have those soda fountains. Yes. You know, they were great. You go in and they make your coffee sundae or something and put coffee syrup in it. And I would go, ooh, isn’t that good? You know. My heart would be racing for the rest of the day…but…

Alison :  you’d be flying.

Kathleen : I would be a nervous wreck, but fine.

Jean: Yeah. Those old fashioned sodas…

Alison : I used to love that.

Kathleen : Yes, weren’t they great!

Alison : We used to have Jans in the Bronx, and you and I talked about this. It was like. It was like a old timey soda ice cream sundae place. Yeah. Oh, man, that was fun. It was a big treat.

Kathleen : Yes. It was.

Jean: I think the ones that were like that was Howard Johnson’s…

Kathleen : Yes.

Alison : Or Friendly’s. Um… I love that… You’re making me hungry.

Jean: I know we should go get an ice cream soda.

Kathleen : I know, what’s your favorite? What are your favorite sodas? If you have ice cream, what do you have?

Alison : Oh.

Jean: I like pistachio.

Alison : Yeah. I used to be able to just eat hot fudge, you know, just eat the hot. I just love that consistency and the warmness and…

Jean: what ice cream do you like?

Alison : Um, pretty much any ice cream.

Jean: Okay.

Alison : Pretty much any ice cream. For me, it was that hot fudge sauce, man.

Jean: Okay, well, let’s all congregate at Baskins and Robbins.

Alison : That’s right.

Kathleen : And we will have our undays.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison : Thank you so much, Kat. This has been such a beautiful time. And it went by so fast.

Kathleen : Oh it did. Oh my goodness.

Jean: I know this conversation is going to bless many people.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean: Because it directs them back to the heart.

Kathleen : Oh, good, I hope so. Thank you so much for the graciousness of inviting me to do this. It’s just— my soul is smiling.

Alison : Us too… Thank you.

Kathleen : Good..

Alison : We love you, Kat. We’ll see you soon.

Jean: We love you.

Kathleen : Love you too. Bye bye.

Alison : Her voice just makes me calm.

Jean: Yeah, she her eyes too. She’s got beautiful eyes but her… Yes, her voice is very soothing.

Alison : And she just like whatever you want, Kat. Like you’re, like, hypnotized, you know?

Jean: That’s right. That’s right.

Alison : I have to say one thing. She comes to our house for Thanksgiving sometimes, and when she’s there, there’s a whole mix of people and ages. And the great thing about Kat is you can sit her next to anyone, and and she’s curious about them, interested in them, and brings out, like, laughter and great conversation. And that’s what I aspire to.

Jean: Well, you I mean, Alison, I think you do that. But Kathleen is definitely someone that has really, uh, evolved into an all around beautiful human being.

Alison : Yeah.

Kathleen : Yeah. So wherever she goes, she just brings Light. And I. And I think, like she said in the beginning of the interview, it we’re that’s what we’re all meant to do, is to communicate love on whatever platform, whether you’re an actor or whether you’re a teacher.

Alison : Or a dentist, a.

Jean: Dentist or an accountant. The the underlying essence is love.

Alison : That’s right.  That’s all that this comes down to, I think. Yeah, right.

Jean: I agree,

Alison : I agree too and.

Jean: I agree three.

Alison : Okay. Who else is in this closet? Get out of here. It’s so crowded in here. Um, well, thank you so much. Have, have a lovely day.

Jean: That’s right.

Alison : And thank you, Kathleen Noone.

Jean: We love you so much.

Alison : Bye bye.

Jean: Well, here…

Alison: Here we go.

Jean: Here we go. We were. We were just saying how we both feel. A little weird or off.

Alison: Like weird. Like it doesn’t. I don’t feel like me on some level. Like it’s strange. Like a little off, a little tired, a little weird.

Jean: Yeah. So we’re at the end of April, the new moon, right?

Alison: And this is probably not going to air until Christmas. I don’t even know.

Jean: But what we have to share today is, is some great, um, information about friendships.

Alison: Which is perfect because friendships are…. So they’re like a little life stream. Don’t you think? There’s this, like, they’re, like, wonderful.

Jean: Right? I don’t know what author said,  um, “my friends are the flowers in my garden.”

Alison: Jean, that’s so sweet. Mhm. You know, all these little good quips. But today we’re talking to Anna Goldfarb and that, that she’s, we read her book Modern Friendship. It’s so good because, it really does a deep dive into friendship. It’s just not like you need more friends. Right. Get more friends.

Jean: Exactly. And, uh, she shares many personal stories. And the New York Times refers to her as its friendship correspondent.

Alison: Right. Which is great.

Jean: That would be so, so great to have that title.

Alison: Yeah. You know, it would be perfect.

Jean: You have foreign correspondent, weather, financial, and then your friendship correspondent.

Alison: I love that. And I, I love that, um, her friendships as she describes in the book, sometimes she’ll say, look, I, I didn’t do this. I’m not perfect, which I love when a writer says that because it becomes, it makes me feel like more accessible to them.

Jean: Absolutely.

Alison: You know, I can’t wait to meet her. She looks so happy, smiley and happy and sweet. Well, here she is. Anna Goldfarb.

Anna: Okay. I’m coming. Hi.

Jean: Hi.

Anna: Good afternoon.

Alison: Oh. Where are you?

Anna: I’m in Philadelphia.

Alison: Oh, I love Philadelphia. We’re in LA.

Anna: Yeah, I wish I was in LA, unfortunately.

Jean: Well, we wish we could be in Philadelphia.

Anna: We should do switcheroo.

Alison: Exactly.

Jean: That’s right.

Alison: It’s so nice to meet you. I’m Alison.

Anna:  Hi, Alison.

Anna: Hi, Jean. It’s nice to meet you, too.

Alison: We loved your book!  “Modern Friendship, How to nurture our most valued connections.” And I love that this is you. You’re the friendship… You’re the friendship correspondent.

Anna: Yeah. Well, that’s something my editor tweeted. It’s not an actual position, but I love it. Yeah. But I was like, this is. I was just so flattered. And yeah, I’m obsessed with friendship.

Jean: It’s such a beautiful obsession. Yeah.

Alison: It is.

Jean: Um, I just was curious.

Anna: Yeah.

Jean: Before we really get into the meat of your book, what’s up with the word modern as opposed to just friendships?

Anna: Oh, um. Well, modern. I wanted to highlight how different friendship is practiced. It’s not our mothers and grandmothers landscape. When, um, making friends and keeping friends. So I really wanted to get into the sociology of friendship. Why is it different? Why does it feel so, so much harder to keep all these connections in play, it’s like we’re we’re spinning plates that no generation in history had to do this much work to keep their connections afloat. Like, it’s also very modern, that it’s so easy to be in touch with our friends, but we choose not to. Um, we don’t, you know, it used to be friendship relied more on favors in the favor economy, and now it’s entertainment. Friends are sort of seen as this cherry on top of a sundae. And it’s more, let’s go out for dinner. Let’s go out. Let’s, you know, go to a concert. Let’s let’s just entertain ourselves. It’s not can you give me a cup of sugar so much, or give me a ride to the airport or help me, you know, with things I need that’s almost, um, seen as gauche to ask for favors sometimes. When for our grandmothers, it was much more based on favors or even, um, you know, lower classes still rely on favors much more than wealthier people in wealthier communities.

Anna: I mean, modern friendship is like we live in the suburbs with lots of space between our friends. We’re not on our porches, you know, talking with people nearby. Um, our identities have changed so much. That’s modern friendship. Um, in the book Our Worst Strength, which is about individualism, it’s by, um, Doctor James Richardson, F Richardson. And he talks about how in 1920, the 1920s, our choices for identity were like, really not that many. It’s like, well, I’m a woman. I’m married, probably. I’m a mother, probably. Um, I’m in a religious community, probably. But fast forward to 1970, and now there’s like dozens of identities of I’m separated, I’m divorced,I don’t have I’m not a parent. Like, there’s so many more like, different identities people can have, which can also impact closeness and connection. So I mean, just think about like your local, your block, how different everyone is and how many different identities. And you seek out different people when you go through different things. So it’s not all married women with children in the same school. It’s, you know, a a retiree and a young family and everyone’s different. So it’s not as homogenous.

Jean: That’s so true. You know. And it just reminds me about modern friendships… Now that you’re putting a little meat on the bone for that, the context of friendship, you know, back in the 70s and 60s, people would just drop by. Oh, yeah. Like, oh, hey, I’m here. I thought I’d come in. Now, you know, you have to announce yourself. And this there’s this great comedian, Sebastian Maniscalco who who does a skit about that.

Alison: Really?

Jean: Like, who’s at the door? Everyone get down. Where before, there was

Anna: a lot more trust. There was a lot more trust. Yes. Yeah, there was a lot more trust. Um, since the 70s, our trust in our government, our institutions have plummeted. So our personal relationships are bound to reflect that. So that’s modern friendship… Well, now we’re living in a society with less trust amongst people. Um, that impacts, i mean, that just sends ripples through all of our decisions. You know, even, um, when people reach out, it’s sort of like, well, what’s your angle? Do you want to sell me something? Like what? Why are you reaching out? Why am I hearing from this old friend? Uh, what do you want to sell me, like a lotion? Do you want to sell me like a like a legging? And all these, you know, these things chip away at your trust. And I think we’re all a little bit more on guard. Um, and there’s a suspicion of like, well, why are you reaching out? What do you need? What? You know, it’s just it’s a different, like, atmosphere we’re living in. Yeah. In my opinion.

Alison: And proximity. Do you know, like, some of our really good friends live far away?

Anna: Yeah.

Alison: You know, and I think that that wasn’t the case for my mom or my grandma. Like, they were like. Yeah, grandma. You know, my grandmother was in a really Italian neighborhood. There were people on the stoops, and that was it. And also, I don’t think that my grandma, maybe this is just my family, and my mother had friends like — it wasn’t it wasn’t considered as important as I think it is now. Do you know do you, do you do you find that like now it’s sort of like… Everyone talks about who are your friends, make more friends. I don’t know that that was happening for my grandmother and mother.

Anna: They didn’t have to try so hard because they probably were really involved in their church or synagogue. They probably had people they saw all the time and they had help. They had an institution helping with their social lives. My grandma was in the synagogue, was a member of the sisters of the synagogue. They got she didn’t have to do it all on her own. But that’s part of the trade off of modern friendship is now we have unlimited flexibility. We can, you know, we have the clipboard. We’re our own cruise directors of our own good ship, good times. And we can pick whoever we want. But it’s also easier to leave those relationships. Um, so that’s the beauty. And the burden of modern friendship is like, well, we can befriend the young couple next door and, you know, get what we can from them, but it’s going to be harder to, you know, have someone else to come up with ideas and the where are we going to meet? What are we going to do? Um, is it going to cost me money? Like, you know, that’s  a whole different, uh, you know, a whole different, uh, casserole that we that we’re eating from. Oh, God, that’s a terrible metaphor, but it’s very different than my grandma did not have to spend a ton of energy. She lived in the same house for 53 years. Born and raised in Philly. You know, she had friends from first grade she was still friendly with. And it doesn’t look anything like my friendships. I mean, it’s just very, very, very different.

Alison: Yeah. And I what I really enjoyed about your book was, you know, you read a lot of things and you get a lot of messaging get get a new friend, get more friends. You need more friends. And it feels a little bit like pull a rabbit out of a hat, you know, swim the English Channel. It’s like, what the heck? Like, I can barely find my shoes. Some days I can’t just get a new friend. And that’s what I really loved about this book that you give very clear, concise, and non-threatening ways to deal with this. I didn’t feel like overburdened, and one of the things I really liked is give them a reason to say yes. When you text someone. Don’t just be like, hey, thinking about you.

Anna:  yeah.

Alison: Which I’ve done always, but it’s like, great. And I was like, oh, I’m a I got to like refine this. Could you talk a little bit about that?

Anna: Yeah. Well, you know, this is this is a message… This is a messaging, an outdated message that we’ve been receiving. And especially during the during the pandemic, a lot of the messaging was just reach out to people. Now’s the time. We’re all home. We’re go reach out to people, send that message. And I thought like, well, why did they lose touch in the first place? And well, what’s happening with that? Like what? Why do I have to reach out and say, thinking of you? Why aren’t we in touch regularly? And then secondly, like then, how does that turn into an active friendship? Just by reaching out and saying hi to someone. Is that. That’s. I mean, so much. We’re in a loneliness epidemic, and so much of the advice is lacking that nuance of, well, why aren’t you in touch?  what kind of friendship is this? Like, why is there distance? Um, and I think part of the messaging, I agree that a lot of it is make new friends, get new friends. It’s a little bit like adopt a new puppy. It’s like, okay, well, I have puppies. And, you know, they’re kind of it’s kind of like touch and go with them and they’re like, adopt a new one. It’s like, well, what’s going on with the friends I already have, who I already know, who I already like and I love. And why aren’t we why aren’t I talking to the people I already like? And the other thing is, why would someone want to be my friend? What am I bringing to the table? Like, it’s a little bit of an entitlement to think just because I reach out to someone unsolicited, as as nice and as pleasant as my message is, it’s unsolicited and I don’t know what they’re doing in the middle.

Anna: I don’t know how this message, this message is received. I don’t know the circumstances. They could have just gotten horrible news about their job, you know, or a loved one. And then I’m like, hey, thinking of you send like, I don’t know, you know. And then it becomes a bit of a to do list item for the recipient of like, okay, I have to discern what does this person want from me? Like, is this something I want to I and then you feel guilty, like I want to sit down and really write. I want to pay attention. But that’s going to probably be a few days until I get back to them, if you remember to get back to them, it’s just a really inefficient system, even though we have this access to our friends. It’s, um, not optimizing the experience for any of us. It’s not, you know, recognizing how busy and unpredictable and complex our lives are to just reach out with a message. I mean, we’re not in eighth grade passing notes in the hallway like I have other stuff going on. What do you need? Why me?

Alison: Yeah.

Anna: So we gotta help him out. We gotta explain. Like I’m not trying to sell you anything. I was just thinking about how we went on that trip that one time, and, you know, like, lessen the uncertainty. Yeah, that’s  our, uh…. You can see my cat Iggy in the background. He really wants to be a part of. He wants to be a part of the conversation. Clearly.

Alison: Come on in.

Anna: But, um, that’s that’s the nuance that I felt was missing from these conversations about friendship.

Jean: Yeah. It’s true.  Right. And I love, um… You give so many great personal stories, and then you turn it around and you ask the reader to be reflective if they want to. So. So I thought your questions were great. And, um, Anna, let’s just talk a little bit about friendships. You you say that there are two kinds and there are tears, which I, Allison and I both love that chapter.

Anna: So hold on a second. My cat just knocked my my microphone off. I’m so sorry.

Alison: No, it’s, um, I love it.

Anna:  You just knocked it off. Iggy is a troublemaker, you guys!!

Alison: That’s just how we roll.

Anna: I’m back. Thank you. Hello. Guys.  Uh, okay.  So two kinds of friendships.

Jean: Yes, yes, yes.

Anna: So, um, in the book, I talk about different tiers of friendship. Um, and that was based on the research of Robin Dunbar, who’s a British anthropologist, and he looked at societies of  – monkey societies. Do they have a society like monkey social ecosystems? And he determined that that we’re designed to really have a few varying degrees of, um, friendships in our life. And, you know, in his book, friends, he talks about these, uh, these tiers. And I wanted to highlight how fluid these groups are. I mean, we talk about how fluid they are, but I really wanted to, um, drive it home that these are, like, you can dip in and out. And so I decided to rebrand them with water imagery, um, and to, to, to describe how fluid these are. And the way it works is the most intimate tier Dunbar found was 1 or 2 people. And for men, it’s usually one person, and it’s usually their significant other. For women, it’s usually two people. It’s a significant other. And their closest friend and I called this tier the bathtub because there’s not much room in it. And then the next, the lower the the next tier, I call the Jacuzzi, and that’s 3 to 5 friends. Those are the friends that he calls your support system, your support group. And those are people that play really important roles for you, and you play important roles for them too.  these friendships take a really long time to come to build. Um, Jeffrey A Hall is a professor at Kansas University, and he found that it takes over 200 hours to go from stranger to close friend. So this Jacuzzi tier are people you spend over 200 hours with. Um, it’s a lot and hundred hours. 200 hours. And, you know, when you think about your best friends, like, yeah, it’s two over 200 hours of, um, spending time together and the next tier I call the swimming pool. And that’s the 10 to 15 people that, um, researchers call the sympathy group, which I thought was like, okay, like, if you need a happy hour or someone to cry on, but it’s actually called the sympathy group, because if anyone in this group died, you’d be very sad, which is very morbid, but that’s the sympathy group, and these are the people that you might double date with, um, coworkers, uh, they know, like, a lot of, uh, intimate details about you, but not as much as the support tier.

Anna: Um, maybe their family members. And then then it kind of goes on from there. Um, the next group I call the beach bonfire group, that’s about 50 people. Like, if you had a birthday party, a big party, and then the last group I call the water park, and that’s 150 people, which Dunbar calls the weddings and Funeral cohort. Like, these are people that come out for that big event. And that’s how our social lives should look like. You know, that’s part of why social media scrambles our brains so much, because it flattens your social circle. Like I’m only supposed to know so much about my Jacuzzi tier and swimming pool tier. But with social media, you’re you’re learning all these things about people that are in your water park that you don’t necessarily need to know this much about them. You don’t need to know that, you know what they ate for dinner. Or you know that their kid just got into this college, like, okay. And that’s what sort of feels weird about social media is I don’t need to know this much. I want to know this much about people in my life.

Alison: Right.

Anna: That actually impacts me. These these outer rings of our social life, Um, we’re not we’re it’s we’re not designed to know this much about them.

Jean: Because it takes time to have a friend, obviously, with that, with that number, you know, and to develop intimacy, you have to….

Alison: If you spend four hours a week with a friend, which is a lot, it’s a year, like it’s two years, right, or something. It’s like a year. It’s like you go, this is a lot of time.

Anna: Well, it is a lot of time. And there’s only a few people that you can realistically do that with, right? So that’s why friendship becomes more precious when we get older. Because where do you get those hours? Where does that time come? What are you taking away? You know, when we’re younger and in school, it’s so much easier to rack up those hours. And we really hit a brick wall with our social lives when we in our 30s, because we don’t have that time to just lay around, watch a movie, crack each other up like that’s a luxury now. I mean, that’s like a that’s the dream of when you can just sit around with a friend. There’s there’s only really realistically a few, a few people you should be doing that with. And that’s part, that’s why I wanted to write this book, because I didn’t have a strategy before with my friendships. I treated everyone like they were in the Jacuzzi and you spread yourself really thin. If you’re taking all these invitations of an old coworker and one of your oldest friends and you know a lady from your yoga class, and you weigh them all equally. You’re going to feel spread way too thin. It’s not.. you can’t keep these relationships up  as easily as you could when you were younger. You really have to make some choices and triage it of who’s really important here. Who should I focus on? When you get text messages. When, when, when my friends text me, um, I reply to my Jacuzzi friends immediately, like ASAP. But other people have to wait. You know, the swimming pool tire might be a day to, like, get back the beach bonfire- good luck…. Maybe in a week i’ll reach out and, you know, that’s how we triage… That’s what we’re doing when we reply to some friends and not others, we have to make choices on where to spend our energy.

Alison: It’s such a it was such a helpful model, truly, because I felt like I was supposed to be treating everyone full force. And I’m tired, man. Like, yes, yes. It’s tiring. You know, um, when you said a second ago. Like. Why me? What am I bringing to the friendship? What do you think you bring to a friendship? You personally.

Anna: What do I do? Well, you know, um, I site a study in the book about the five reasons people tend to make friends. Right? Um, it was done in 2021 from a group of Cypriot researchers. Um, Cyprus, I hear, is some place that exists, like the Cypriot um, and they, they, they identified five reasons. The first is career. Um, we tend to befriend people that want to help us with our career. Uh, second is mating. We, you know, for single or looking to date, uh, friends can be appealing if they can meet us with other if they can hook us up with other, you know, appropriate meets. The third is what they call desirable qualities. And that basically means someone’s super fun. And you share hobbies and passions like, they just seem…. they’re great. Um, and yeah, you share those interests. The fourth is, um, emotional support. That’s a huge one with our friends. We want someone who can listen and support us. And the last one is what they call sociability. And that means we just want to be a part of something. Be out and about. You join a book club or, you know, like a class just to just to meet people and be in the mix. So with that said, this is like learning how to play music. Like these are the notes of friendship. And what I learned is I needed to up my emotional support skills. I’m not very good at it. And I was repelling friends because I didn’t know how to comfort them when they’d have these, you know, these big you know, I tell a story in the book of….I have a friend who was going through IBF and I didn’t know how to comfort her. And my friend stopped, i mean, she blew me off, which honestly, I get– like I did not do a good job of meeting the moment. And that’s when I realized, like, the stakes are really high, especially in our culture. We get this messaging of, you know, that person’s toxic, drop them. You know, I feel like if I don’t say the right thing or meet the moment, I’m not a trained therapist. I don’t I don’t know how to do this stuff. And our grandmothers did not necessarily do this for one another. Their friendships were much more like based on getting a reprieve from the drudgery of married life. It was much lighter. They didn’t really disclose these kinds of like, personal, deeply personal, intimate details with one another as much. You know, women didn’t talk about miscarriages. They didn’t talk about, you know, these these deep things with one another the way that our culture has shifted towards. So I learned I had to up my emotional support game. I mean, and also with career. And when I reach out to new friends now, I’m like, oh, I’m interested in what you’re doing, how can I help? And people tend to keep those around that care about what they care about. So it’s like, okay, well, what does this person care about– that’s I designate one of my Jacuzzi friends. She cares about her career. Okay. I’m going to help her with her career.

Anna: We share that in common. Um. Let’s see. Desirable qualities. We both love the same movies. We like eating out to restaurants. We crack each other up. We’re fun. Friends want their friends to be fun. Like, I think we forget that. Not just use call and complain. It’s like, okay, we got to have fun. Um, I can just start hitting those notes. Um, conversely, all those reasons are why friends, um, fall apart is we don’t share a career. So like you, you realize you’re gravitating towards people that you share that in common with. So you might pull back from a friendship if you’re in completely different career fields. Um, if their emotional support skills aren’t up to snuff, you’re going to be closer to the friends that are, that can be empathetic and, you know,  have just have better skills, be more validating, be more supportive. So it really these five things really are the crux. This is like nugget– like highlight this information everybody and I know it’s we’re listening, but this is what we can do for our friends is we can tap into those skills and see what your friend needs. Does she need more fun? Let’s pump up the fun. Does she need support? Let’s figure out how to how to support her. Um, does she need sociability? Let’s start a group. Let’s start a monthly thing. And then you’ll notice that your friends are more likely to to keep you in the mix and keep you around because you’re helping them with these things that they care about.

Alison: You know what I love that you did not say, well, I’m a good person. I’m funny. I’m like, it takes all the personal vulnerability and like, like making me feel like I’m not enough away by saying, hey, work on being sympathetic. Work on getting together. I think that’s like, that’s what I loved because it’s just so not like like, I think the reason people want to be my friend is because, like, you know, I’m good, I’m okay. But really, I think people like to be my friend for some of the reasons you’re saying, which is outside of me in a way, like it’s skills I can learn, you know, which is fantastic.

Anna: It was really important to me to suggest things that are not out of your comfort zone, not out of anyone’s comfort zone. I am like a little bit lazy. Let’s be real. Like I’m a cat mom. I just want to hang out in Philly. And I wanted people to read this book and feel like they can put this into action. They don’t have to become someone else. They don’t have to pantomime, you know, some idea that’s not them. It’s like, no, you have people already like, let’s take a look at why things are working or why things aren’t. And once you start identifying, who am I going to focus on? I’m going to focus on a few people and be an outstanding friend to them. And you will just feel like this is achievable. Friendship is achievable and sustainable.

Alison: Right.

Jean: Yeah..You know, I think another valid point, you you really champion is that we all change– you know, i definitely am not the same woman I was in my 20s, you know, and what I required in my 20s is not what I need now. And my friends are going to reflect that… Um, and that’s also why, Anna, I loved how you spoke about the fluidity of the tears, because someone who was in my Jacuzzi is now maybe on the beach.

Anna: Yeah.

Jean: You know, I think to give us ourselves, some grace and go, you know, and rather than guilt for feeling bad, we’re not maintaining something. But if it’s just not there, um, and and yet, to your point, there are great things to do to rekindle a relationship. And, um. Can you share your story with your sister?

Anna: Oh my gosh. Well, with you know, it’s interesting as I started reporting on friendship, um, my first story was like 2016, 2017 where I started reporting on friendships and I was estranged from one of my sisters. Like, we really could not even get through a meal without smoke coming out of our ears of like, we are just at each other’s throats and I cannot get on the same page with her. And I, um, I wrote an article about how to maintain friendships for the New York Times that ran in 2017, and I spoke with a friendship expert, which I didn’t even know that was that thing such a such a thing existed. Like what? There’s friendship experts. Uh, her name is Shasta Nelson. She’s like, just a total, just a wonderful voice in the friendship space. She’s written so many books on friendship And what I learned from Shasta was that friendships, healthy friendships require three things- consistency, positivity, and vulnerability. So I started putting it to work with my sister. I started with consistency. She just had a kid, so I said, why don’t I come up every Saturday and help you watch your kid? Um, and then positivity. I started buying her little gifts of, like, I got you some of your cookies i thought you’d like. I got you a little lip balm. And then the last thing was vulnerability. Because once I came, she knew I was coming every week. And I was giving her little things. And then she’d– i’d be like, let me watch your kid while you while you take a nap. And she’d wake up, she’d be like, well, how are you? What’s going on with you? And that opened the portal to vulnerability. And we now talk on the phone every morning. Um, our we’ve never been closer. And we went from – we couldn’t even sit at a table together to now we vacation together. Um, our our relationship has completely transformed. And it all started because, I turned down the volume on thoughts like, why isn’t she doing more for me? Why isn’t she happier for me? And I turned up the thoughts, the volume on, sorry.. I turned up the volume on thoughts like what can I do to help her today? And that’s what our friends are looking, looking for from us. Of what can I do to help them? You know, I, I really think that movies and popular culture sell us this idea of- I’m in the middle and I have all my friends on my side, like, surrounding me.

Anna: They’re throwing me a party. They’re celebrating me. But what friendship actually is, is being the sidekick. It’s looking at friends that you love and admire and thinking, how can I help them? How can I help them? How can I be a witness to their challenges and triumphs? How can I cheer them on? And that’s where the good feelings of friendship come. It doesn’t come from how many people you know are in your phone. It doesn’t feel that good. We all have tons of friends in our phone. We’re not calling them, you know, like, it doesn’t feel that good. It actually can feel really lonely … I have so many dozens of friends and it it doesn’t really feel as good as you think it would. And studies reflect that. Studies show that it feels better to be considered someone’s best friend, to have people we admire point to us and say, that’s my best friend. So that’s like totally flipping the narrative on its head of it’s not about who’s in your posse, who you choose, it’s who do you support, who do you want to invest in, who do you want to cheer on?

Alison: And that’s great, really for any relationship.

Anna: Yeah.

Alison: You know, the more you can do that with anybody your kid, your husband, your sibling, your , anybody. It really even even sort of like, um, neighbors or a little bit of strangers just sort of being kind and a little bit open. I think that’s beautiful, beautiful advice that you…. What do you think is the thing from researching all this that surprised you the most? Were you was there anything that really surprised you while you were doing all this friendship sort of research?

Anna: I think it surprised me that you really only need 3 to 5 close friends– like that really surprised me. Because, you know, you think about all the people you’ve met in your life and trying to keep everyone, all of it going, trying to reach out to everyone and to hear you only need a handful, you only need a few. Actually, it was like a lightning bolt because it makes…. When I think back to when I was happiest with my friendships, it was, it was high school when I just had a few friends and I just focused on them. I wasn’t trying to keep up every connection I’ve ever made in my life. You know, I just had a few people and I was so happy. Yeah. And then, you know, you go away to school and you move around and you meet all these other people, and it just takes you away from that simplicity. So I think that’s the most surprising thing is how simple this can be, because it feels so complicated and it takes it took up a lot of real estate in my brain of are we still friends? I haven’t like, what’s up with my best friend from, you know, college? I haven’t talked to her. Am I a jerk? Is she? It would take up so much mental energy. And since I wrote this book, I feels like putting down a heavy backpack. Like, I don’t have to think this much. I can I have language for these tiers… I understand that they’re fluid, I understand I can negotiate a friendship. I can say, Jean, I want to spend more time with you. I really miss you. Like, what are your goals this quarter? How can we, how can I help? Do you want a accountability buddy for something? Do you want to move your body more? Do you want to do social media stuff together? Like we can negotiate with our friends, which was something I didn’t understand about friendship before either.

Jean: And so, that what you just said reminds me of your , About .

Alison: Yeah. That’s so great.

Jean: Right. So if you’re going to help me organize my kitchen, or you’re going to help me start my garden—So I’ll let you take it from there., Anna– the about.

Anna: Yes. Thank you. Um, thank you for bringing for asking about that. This is, this I think is the core thesis of the book is, you know, friendship is a story of time. You know, we talked about those 200 hours, and I was I remember learning that and thinking, well, what would I spend? What would I spend 200 hours doing? Like what would what? Like what does that look like? And that’s when I thought, well, why does anyone do anything? And do how do friendships fit in with that? And so I learned about choice theory, which was written, which is a theory by Doctor William Glasser. He came up with choice theory in the 60s. And it was all about how humans behave. We all have these five genetic inherent needs um, survival, power, love and belonging, freedom and fun. Every decision we make is because we’re trying to get one of those needs met. You know why I eat Oreos? Even though I’m not hungry? It’s like, well, you know what? I want A little fun, i’m a little bored, I don’t know. Um, the chocolate gives a sense of belonging because it’s the oxytocin, oxytocin, whatever– it’s in my brain. The chemical I just misspoke. Right. So I was thinking about why anyone does anything. And then I merged the two of like, okay, how does this work with time, friends and behaviors? And what I learned is that every friendship needs an, “about” and the about needs to be clear and compelling.

Anna: So what this means, is it’s not enough that we just want to spend time together… We have to find something apart from us that we love doing, that we want someone to do with us to talk about, with us, to explore, with us, to comment on, with us. Um, and I learned that abouts can change, be outdated or be absent. And that really explained why I gravitated towards some friendships and not others. Or when you meet someone new and you’re like, you seem promising, we should get lunch. And you’re like, well, why is that? Why doesn’t that lunch happen? It’s because we didn’t identify and about… it wasn’t clear and it wasn’t compelling, as opposed to if I said, do you want to get together for lunch? We can talk about, you know, the podcast you’re starting, i’ve been on some podcasts, i can share some names. Well, that could be very compelling to the other person. So they’re more likely to say, yes. Um, and that really just opened up a whole portal for me of understanding. It’s not just affection. Affection isn’t enough to keep a friendship active. You really need a a clear and compelling about for both people to make time to see one another.

Alison: But the about can not be um, can be simple, right? Like, let’s let’s take a hike. Let’s hike once a week. It doesn’t have to be something…

Anna: Some huge thing.

Alison: You know, because I want people to know that it’s so easy to sort of think of and about like–

Anna: It could be anything. And it goes back to those five reasons that people make friends. If our about is career, I might, that might be very compelling for me, and that will make me be more interested in seeing you and spending time with you. Um, mating in our 20s, a lot of our my abouts were, let’s go out dancing and let’s go meet guys. You know, it doesn’t translate to another decade, perhaps, but when in my 20s that was our about. And that’s also the reason that some of those friendships faded away is because, that about wasn’t as compelling to me once I got older. Um, the third about is desirable qualities like we talked about, you know, being fun, sharing passions and hobbies. Um, fourth, emotional support. That’s a great about sometimes we call our friends because we need a little support and we want to get together. We want to vent. Um, so those are all abouts. They totally overlap. And it’s a whole, it is a whole new way to think about your friendships of… It’s not personal, it’s we, it’s okay, we have affection, we care for one another, but what’s our about is our about outdated? We talk about, you know, going to camp when we were when we were 15. How often do I want to talk about camp? Maybe every 12 years. Maybe that’s why we talk every 12 years. So you can negotiate, you know. Well, I want to spend more time with you. What do you care about today? How can I help with that? And you can negotiate a new, “about.”

Alison: Fantastic.

Jean: Love that.

Alison: I love that,  you’re so and you’re so, you really are fun.

Anna: Oh, my God, I try. I really try to be fun. I’m a middle child, you know? We’re all little…. We all want the attention.

Alison: Yeah, I get it, I get it, yeah.

Jean: And you have a gorgeous smile.

Alison: You really do.

Anna: Thank you, thank you. Oh, my God, we should talk all the time.

Alison: That could be our about…

Anna: Desirable qualities. Check.

Alison: Um, just to sort of wrap up, we always ask these two questions of people. Um, our podcast is called Inside Wink, and I was wondering, what do you think that means? There’s no wrong answer…

Anna: Inside wink, I think of, um, stumbling upon a really good pastry, and I just think like, yeah, I found a good I don’t know what inside wink means, but I think of that little flutter I get of, oh my God, that looks so good. I’m going to get that cream puff. Um, I live right by the Italian market in South Philly. So, um, for my birthday, I went to a little Italian bakery and looking at the whole row of pastries, I felt like an inside wink of, I am going to get some treats for that… I’m not going to share them… They’re all for me. And that’s what it feels like. hahah

Alison: We could definitely be friends. The three of us. Definitely.

Jean: I love going into bakeries.

Alison: Yeah.

Jean: I and I know those cases that you walk in and you see… Oh, Napoleon, you know.

Alison: Oh, yes.

Jean: the rainbow cookies.

Anna: Yes.

Alison: Hungry? Yeah.

Anna: We should do a field trip.

Alison: We should….When we come to Philly, we’ll do bakeries.

Jean: Um, okay. So, speaking about desserts.

Anna: Yes.

Jean: What’s your favorite cake? Pie or ice cream?

Anna: I love that there’s a world where they can all be separate things and not live on the same plate. But I gotta say, ice cream cake is my favorite. A Carvel.

Jean: Nice.

Anna: I think about Carvel ice cream cakes solidly once a week.

Jean: I love Carvel.

Alison: I love Carvel.

Anna: I know it’s East Coast.

Alison: We’re both from the East Coast, and I love the way that he would take, um, like, Dumpy the Pumpkin or something and turn it around. And it was Fudgie the Whale.

Anna: Like yes. Cookie puss. Yes.

Alison: And same mold. Like, I just kind of love that. Yeah. You know.

Jean: Those were the, um, you know, the the dips, the vanilla ice cream or chocolate soft serve, and they would dip it in chocolate or strawberry and the crunch in  the cake.

Anna: And all the textures

Jean: There are those great restaurants on the East Coast that we don’t have… I mean, there is a Carvel every now and then here, but not like on the East coast.

Anna: I know we’re spoiled and they sell Carvel in the supermarket.

Alison: Really?

Anna: Yeah, right in the freezer section. So I need to manufacture reasons to get a little ice cream cake.

Alison: I love that. Thank you so much for this. You’ve just…

Anna: Oh my gosh.

Alison: You’re a sweet woman, and just a great friend…. And we really enjoyed this. And I hope a lot of people read it because it’s really important and very accessible.

Anna: Yes. Thank you for saying that. I really wanted it to, you know. Was it under-promise and overdeliver? Yeah. Like okay, friendship…. Like, where are we going? And then it’s like, oh, wow. Like, this really is putting a lot of things into sharp focus. And I just am here to help. I really am obsessed with friendship. And, you know, just to get to help people understand their friendships better and just feel like I can to really empower people of, you know, friendships, you can make them work for you at any stage. It’s not just for younger people. It’s not just for when you were young. You can have wildly amazing friendships. Your best friendships are ahead of you. That’s how I feel. So that’s how I want people to feel optimistic, hopeful, empowered. Um, all of that. So thank you for saying that. That really means a lot to me.

Alison: You’re fantastic. Thank you so much, Anna.

Jean: Yes.

Anna: Thank you.

Alison: Have a beautiful day. And we love your cat.

Anna: Thank you. Cheers.

Alison: That was. That was an excellent, excellent interview.

Jean: She was wonderful. She was exactly what I thought she was going to be like. And, you know, some interviews, i’m like, wow, how is this going to go down? But with Anna, that was really lovely.

Alison: She was so smart. We were just we were just saying that she can keep all that in her head. This was from this doctor and this was this study in Cyprus. And here are the and I thought, wow. Like she really knows her stuff. It’s really interesting to me.

Jean: Right.

Jean: Yeah. And really her book truly made me think about my friendships.. Where I, I could, I could reach out more and where I’m feeling, no, that feels good.

Alison: Right? And she at the end of the book, she does a cleanse, a friendship cleanse. And it’s really interesting about really reevaluating where you are, cleaning out a drawer, getting things moving, getting energy moving. And it’s really, um, I really enjoyed it. And I really like talking to her because there’s none of this felt blameful.

Jean: Exactly. And, and, and I think that’s the most important thing to remember is that we’re all humans… We all have our different seasons. And, um, some of us are going to ride the train the whole way, and some of us get on and off at different stops.

Alison: And I just have to say, I, I think you two are very blessed with beautiful, beautiful friends. And likewise, I feel that, um, it we have invested a lot of time and we have invested on both sides. My friends have invested a lot of time into me and a lot of love and likewise. And so when she was like, you can always have an opportunity to even be a better friend, i love that because it gives me something to achieve as opposed to just like, you know, she said, go get a puppy, you know?

Jean: Right, right. And that friendships grow. Yeah. Grow and change. And, uh, you know, something we didn’t talk about, but I thought, I think it was I don’t know where I heard it, but she does say it’s really nice to do something a little special for your friend. Something out of the norm.

Alison: And you always do that.

Jean: I was just gonna say, you do that for me

Alison: So that’s exactly what I was. I think I got it from you because you’re just so…

Jean: Romance Your friendship.

Alison: That’s right, that’s right. Have some fun. So I think this is a great book for everyone to read, any age, everything. And I, I wanted to ask about male friendships, which I didn’t get to. I wonder if that’s different, but really, if you have a minute, pick up,  Modern Friendship by Anna Goldfarb.

Jean: Yes.

Jean: It’ll be something that you can use with your friends and in any relationship.

Alison: Oh yeah, that would be a great thing to read like for a friend book club. Mhm. Right. That would be great. Well anyway. Okay. Thank you Jeannie. Thank you everybody.

Jean: Thank you. Friend of mine Alison.

Alison: Yes, Thank you friend and thank you friends. Thank you so much. Have a great day.

Jean: Bye.

 

Alison: Hello.

Jean : Hi there.

Alison: Today we get to talk to a hero, right?

Jean : A true hero? Yes… And, uh, I’ve never actually spoken to a fireman, one on one.

Alison: Oh. Me neither. Like, sometimes, if I’ve needed help, like that time we that we fell down. That I fell down?

Jean : Yes.

Alison: And they came and helped me. Right. Um. You were great then, by the way. Um. And they came and helped me, and they.

Jean : I waited for you on the trail. I just didn’t take off. Good luck to you.

Alison: Well, you were very sweet. You stood and gave me shade. Everyone was very kind. But the firemen were really great. The paramedic firemen that showed up and the fire truck, um…. And there have been fires here, and fires… It seems all over, like the weather has just been very intense and going through those fires this year.

Jean : Yes.

Alison: Really? We wanted to talk to someone that this is their job, you know?

Jean : Exactly. So we are really, uh, grateful to speak with Alexander Edwards.

Alison: Right. And we know his dad.

Jean : We know his dad, Edward Edwards.

Alison: He’s a wonderful actor.

Jean : And his lovely mom named Liis.

Alison: And so we were so lucky, he just, he became a captain. He’s a fire captain.  And I have to say, um,  i can’t wait to speak to him and just hear some tips and just hear what it’s like to to to be in his life. You know?

Jean : It’s going to be a whole new territory for me, so.

Alison: Me too. It’s going to be fun. So here he is, Alexander Edwards.

Alexsander : Hello.

Alison: Nice to meet you.

Alexsander : Nice to meet you, too.

Jean : I see a  little bit of your dad…do people…

Alexsander : Oh,  I have a lot of my dad. Yeah. I’m pretty…especially my mannerisms. Yeah. I’m very, very similar.

Jean : Well, I like your dad a lot.

Alexsander : Great.

Alison: Yes.

Alexsander : Very nice to meet you guys.

Alison: Hi, I’m Alison.

Jean : And I’m, Jean..

Alexsander :  yeah, good to meet you guys.

Alison: So thank you so much for doing this. You know, topics of fires, I guess…. The other day, there was a fire in new Jersey, and, um.

Alexsander : Oh, really?

Alison: Yeah. I read something on the news yesterday about it. Um, so it seems like, I don’t know, fires are just on everybody’s mind right now. So basically, could you tell us a little bit of how you chose this path?

Alexsander : Yeah, I, um, so I’ve been a firefighter with L.A. County Fire Department for about 13 years. I just got promoted to captain in November.

Alison: Congratulations!

Alexsander : Thank you. Um, so my big intro into it was basically growing up, my… I was friends with these two brothers, and, uh, they were like, my best friends growing up. And their dad was in LA city fire captain. Um, he’s kind of like my second dad. So you guys have met Edward, obviously, but, uh, yeah, he was the other dad that I grew up around the most, and so kind of getting exposed to him, and, um, he’s kind of lifestyle and what he did and everything like that was kind of my first introduction into that world or that opportunity, so to speak. Yeah.

Alison: And he was a fireman.

Alexsander : He was a fire captain with LA City Fire Department.

Alison: Wow. And did his children become firemen?

Alexsander : No, that’s the funny thing. Actually, no. So, my dad’s an actor. I became a firefighter. He was a fire captain, and his sons became an animator and a physical therapist.

Jean : That’s So it’s just funny.

Alexsander : Complete flip flop? Yeah. Complete flip flop. Yeah, yeah. I’m the only one that became, uh, became a firefighter out of the three of us.

Alison: Wow.

Jean : And is there like, a certain age that someone, uh, should really entertain seriously, becoming a firefighter, if that is something they want?

Alexsander : I think it happens differently for everybody. I mean, there’s some guys like I used to work with a guy who I asked him when, you know, because that’s kind of a common question. We have a lot of downtime with each other. And so you end up talking to guys. Um, there was one guy I talked to,  you know,  when did you decide you wanted to be a firefighter? And he was the kid, that when the firemen came to the school for a, you know, like a show me, when he was in kindergarten, he was the kid that got to have the helmet put on his head. And he was like, from from that moment on, that’s when he wanted to be one. Um, I, I went through college, um, I got hired when I was 28, so I, I had a whole other life before this. Um, but I kind of always thought about it might be a good job for me. Um, you guys know my dad… He’s not a firefighter, but my dad’s very socially conscious and was always very, uh, like, i remember one time we were sitting at this restaurant and there was a car accident outside, and my dad was the one guy in the restaurant that got up and ran out to go help the people, so I was raised around it, even though he wasn’t a part of it.

Alexsander : Um, and so I think I kind of always had that service idea or social responsibility in my background of what I was raised with. Um, but I just didn’t get to it in time. So. So for some people, they start when they’re 18 or 19. I liked that I had another life before it. Um, I think you bring some extra experience to the table when you, when you get that job. Um, also an appreciation for it. It’s a great job. But I always joke that, like, uh, it’s nice to kind of know what you know, other people do, like in a not having a 9 to 5 as opposed to like the jobs that because our schedules are so different. Um, yeah. So no, there’s no there’s no wrong age. I mean, there’s guys that don’t do it till they’re 40.

Alison:  wow.

Alexsander : Yeah, I think it’s it, it is to some extent a calling. Um, and there’s different ways to get to it. So. Yeah.

Alison: What is your schedule like?

Alexsander : So. I work –  L.A. County fire departments on what’s called a Kelly schedule… I don’t know why it’s called that. And some some person named Kelly must have invented it back in the day. Um, but we worked 24 hours. Um, so you’re there, uh, essentially 7 a.m. to 7 a.m.. Um, and we work ten days a month. Um, so basically works out to about 240 hours a month is, is how it’s scheduled. And then those days are basically, the way I describe it is there’s like a 3 day cycle of-   on a day, off a day, on a day, and then you’re off for two. And then, on a day, off a day, on a day, off for four. It never actually works out that way because guys pick up overtimes. You switch shifts, everything like that. But if you just work your schedule, that’s what you would work.

Alison: And like when you started, was it were you scared?

Alexsander : You know, I think it’s one of those things where just like anything, I think you don’t really know until you try it, right? Like, I mean,  I had some really, you know, obviously, I was around, uh, my best friend’s dad, Eric. And so he grew up listening to his stories from the firehouse, and his stories never bothered me. He’d tell me some fairly, you know, fireman…. We see some gruesome stuff. And so I would hear those stories, and those never bothered me. And the stories about fires he fought and those always sound exciting. And, um, and then before I became a firefighter, I got my EMT license and I did some stuff with that. And you don’t know about things until they, um, are presented to you. And I did some stuff with the EMTs, and it didn’t bother me as much as I thought it would. And then I became a firefighter. And you go through a fire academy and, um, you do live fire training. And I found that I was more excited than anything and just enjoyed it. And so, um, I mean, there are scary moments,  I think, you know, it’s just like anything, it’s like, honestly,  I’m sure my dad’s an actor… I think I’d probably be more scared to get up on stage in front of, like, a couple thousand people than I would be to run into a building at this point.

Alison: Yeah.

Jean : So, uh, Alex…So I’ve heard that the training to become a fireman is, is pretty intense. Would you say that it it was?

Alexsander : Yeah. Yeah, it definitely can be, um… It’s rigorous. Yeah.

Jean : Um, is there anything that shocked you, like… Oh, my God, I can’t believe we’re doing this?

Alexsander : You know, my department was really good at prepping us ahead of time for what it’s actually going to take. Um, so I kind of knew what it was going in. Um, anyone who’s looking, I have a couple people that I’ve helped get hired over the years. And the big thing that I, I quote to everybody, at least for my department, is cardio. You, um, going through the fire academy, it’s I think it’s now it’s either four months or six months. I can’t remember exactly, but the first ten weeks or so are just intense… They call it the grinder. And it’s because it grinds you in… You’re spending every day, um, pulling hose, practicing doing things… You’re not allowed,  it’s almost like it’s a boot camp, basically. Um, we don’t live there, but you’re there from 5 a.m. to 5 p.m. ish, give or take. Um, you’re not allowed to, uh, walk when you’re going between classroom or and anything. You’re running everywhere. Uh, mine was in August. So in, uh, Pomona, so hot, you know, 100 to 100 degree days. And, um, just anybody who asked me, I said, the biggest thing you can do is cardio. I mean, you can do all the pushups in the world and all the, you know, your bench presses 315 or whatever, but if you can’t run, you’re going to get tired. And when you’re tired, then you can’t focus on what you’re doing. And that’s when you’re going to make mistakes. And unfortunately, some people do fail out of the academy because they just can’t keep up with, uh, the cardio or the rigorousness of it.

Alison:  Can I ask two stupid questions?

Alexsander : No, no stupid questions. Go ahead.

Alison: in that suit, is it incredibly hot?

Alexsander : It gets warm. It does? Yeah. You you start sweating almost immediately. And the other part of that, is that your gear is heavy. So like, I weighed myself when I wear my gear…. So I’m, I’m about 230 normally, and when I put my gear on I weigh over 300 pounds. So it’s about with the with the suit on the air, pack your, your axe, everything like that, you’ve got about 70 to 80 of extra weight on top of you. And then you’re having to, you know, then you’re climbing the stairs and doing the stuff with all of that on you as well. So you you start sweating almost immediately.

Alison: That’s amazing. And now here’s my second stupid question. Um, um, when you are called, like, you hear that bell go off, right, and you all jump on a truck and you go to a fire, do you all have jobs before… Jean and I were talking about this…. Do you all have jobs before you get to the fire? Like, okay, you’re going to do the hose, you’re going to climb a ladder?   And is that what you do all the time or does that rotate?

Alexsander : Uh, it rotates. Um, it’s most fire stations, like in my department, at least, they all do mostly the same thing, but everyone kind of has their own little flavor based on their districts, like some districts will have, a perfect example of this is, uh, we my department, uh, incorporates West Hollywood into it. West Hollywood has a lot of, um, high rise. So their district is really like they are our department’s experts on high rise because that’s what they have. And so, um, a lot of it’s dictated on where you sit on the, uh, on the truck or the engine and what your rank is. So I’m a captain now. So my job as a captain is to run the incident. And so I’m mostly on the radios and I’m being the safety watching out for my men and women. Um, the, the person who drives the engine is the engineer, and he’s either responsible for, uh, getting the water supply or, uh, raising the ladder on the big ladder trucks. And then the firefighters, their job is based on, um, where they’re sitting. So, like, on those big trucks with the guy in the back, uh, that’s what’s called the tiller. So my old station, the tiller was always responsible for putting up the first ladder. And what we call the inside man was, uh, responsible for grabbing, like, the chainsaws or pulling the hose. So, yes, we we and we train. We do a lot of training, and we train those positions. Um, but you will switch. So, like, just because you’re the tiller one day doesn’t mean you’re going to be the tiller every day. So like we, we do rotate. So you just become a better rounded firefighter that way. So some days you’re pulling the hose, some days you’re going to the roof and yeah, you alternate. Yeah.

Jean : Right. And I’m curious, so when you’re at the firehouse and there’s no fire, do you all have your own room? Is it like a dorm?

Alexsander :  It depends on the station. Um, there’s not a standardized station, uh, so to speak. Um, my department especially like LA County, um, we control parts of the county that are unincorporated, uh, areas like the Malibu Mountains, for example. And then we also control our cover, uh, contract cities. So my old station, when I was still a firefighter before I promoted, um, was in Gardena, and we actually took over Gardena, and we are housed in their stations. And Gardena had separate dorms for each, uh, personnel at the station. So I had my own room. Um, my new station is in Hawaiian Gardens down by Long Beach, and it’s an old county station. It’s an open dorm. So it’s me and two other personnel sleeping in the same dorm. Um, so it honestly, it really is, uh, station dependent. The new stations they’re making them with, everybody has their own room. Um, and that’s partially to accommodate, you know, we have more and more women working in the fire department, and the privacy issues, things like that. But the old, uh, the old stations kind of still have that open dorm, uh, open bathroom, open locker room kind of vibe to it. So they were working away from that, but we’re still in it, so to speak.

Jean : Are you eating your meals together and cooking?

Alexsander : Yeah, We cook or we go out.. We have a cook schedule. Um, some again, some stations have uh, they’re a little bit more rigorous with that. But we, yeah, we do a lot. We have a cook schedule, so, you know, my station is three guys. So every third shift, I’m the cook. Um, and we rotate some stations if you work there, you know, you’re going to be eating two meals. You’re gonna be cooking two meals if you’re the cook. Uh, do lunch and dinner. Um, Sundays is a big brunch day. You make, especially during football season, guys will usually make a big breakfast burrito or pancake brunch for the guys, and then do some kind of meal in the afternoon or something like that. So yeah, we try to have fun. We try to make it fun. Uh, holidays, you know, firefighters were not off on holidays, so we have to work Christmas. We have to work, you know, everything. And, um, a lot of the big stations will have, like, uh, I know the station up the street from me they have a bunch of guys working, so they did an Easter egg hunt for the kids at the station so that their kids could all come and be there and stuff like that. So they try to make it fun.

Alison: Oh, that’s. That’s very sweet. Do you do you have any memories of something where you had to grab someone out of a building and save them? Like, what is that experience? Have you ever done anything?

Alexsander : I haven’t. Let’s see. Oh I did, I actually did pull a lady out one time. Yeah I, I’ve had I pulled one lady out of a building or out of a, it was actually a detached garage that they had turned into a like a grandma suite, so to speak, and it was on fire and we pulled her out. She she ended up passing away the next day from her injuries. But, um, no, I mean, that’s that’s kind of what you, you train for and you, you don’t hope that it happens, but you’re happy when you get to do it. Um, they had a fire in Gardena. I wasn’t on it, but some of my best friends on the job were on it about a year ago, where they pulled four people out of the building. And it was it was pretty impressive. So, um, you know, it’s funny, you always feel like you’re going to be, you know, you grew up on those movies like Backdraft, where they, like, pick them up and and walk out. And when you actually do it, it’s not nearly as, um, cinematic as you think it’s going to be. Um, yeah. But we we did. We pulled a she was she was trapped inside the house. She was, uh, in a wheelchair. And so we pulled her out. But then unfortunately, her airway was so burned that she died the next day.

Alison: Oh. I’m sorry.

Alexsander : Yeah.

Jean : So I was curious that you bring up the movie, Backdraft. Is there a movie that you’ve seen that you feel really depicts the the life and the way a fireman moves in their in their job?

Alexsander : You know, i think it’s really a throwback and probably my generation and younger doesn’t really know about it, but I think probably the still the most accurate description of, uh, my experience with the fire service is actually the old, Emergency. If you guys ever watched Emergency. Yeah, that actually I think is the best like day to day description of kind of what we actually do. Um, you know, the new stuff like, Chicago Fire does a pretty good job. Um, obviously things are put to Hollywood spin on it. Um, there was that movie about the hotshot crews, uh, Only the Brave. I don’t know if you guys saw that? That was a very good movie. I wasn’t in a fire camp, but I’ve heard that that’s a very good, accurate description of what those guys go through. Um, I’m trying to think what other firefighter movies I’ve seen. I mean, Backdraft, I think Backdraft has to some extent, like the kind of station shenanigans and all that stuff. Obviously, again, like, there’s some Hollywood liberties, but yeah, for my for my money, if I was going to like, especially if my daughter gets older, I’m going to show her the old Emergency episodes so that she kind of sees what it’s like. Yeah.

Alison: So you have a family, right?

Alexsander : Yes…I have a daughter…A wife and a daughter and a dog.

Jean : Is the dog a female?

Alexsander : Yes. It’s me and three women.

Alison: so it’s guys on those Kelly schedule –  a lot of them… Um, so how is it for your family? Like, did they have any with your wife? Was it, like, hard or for her to be like, yeah, go do that?

Alexsander : You know, I was a firefighter when I met her, so she’s kind of never really known anything different, um, you know….  our schedule is hard, i mean, you know, I jokingly say, but it’s really true because, my wife’s a single mom half the month, you know, I’m gone. I’m scheduled ten days a month. But I really, in reality, work probably about 14 or 15 days at the station, so it really falls on her. We’re fortunate we have two great sets of grandparents that live nearby that help out a lot. But yeah, my wife is basically a single mom half the time. Um, and she’s really stepped up to that. And, you know, we do we do have like, you know, the family actually sacrifices a lot for it, for the career. It is, um, you know, and you have to bend things– like I was I was gone all of Easter, so, um, we did… The Easter Bunny came on Friday for us, you know, and I had to explain to him… Yeah, we we told my daughter, I was like, you know, everybody knows that firefighter children don’t get to be with their families on holidays, so he shows up early for them and she bought it.

Alison: It’s funny.

Alexsander : Yeah so he’s  magical, so he knows these things. But yeah, you just adjust. I was also gone on Christmas. So, um, you either have it at the station or you adjust it, but yeah, at some level, there’s a lot of benefits that come from the job. But your family, you’re not the only one working. Your family definitely is working as well,  and it’s not to the same level, but kind of like what military families go through, I’m sure.

Alison: And how do you feel like with your firehouse of other firemen, like, do you become so bonded or are you guys rotating within…?

Alexsander : you do you get very close with your guys. I, uh, I just promoted to a new station in a new area… When you promote, they usually move you somewhere else to kind of get your, um, to, you know, feel feel out the rest, you know, it puts you in a, in a spot to, like, learn your job a little bit, so to speak. Um, but before I promoted, I had been in the same area for about ten years, and so most of the guys in that area, I knew them. Um, my, you know, my crew was some of my best friends. Um, but I actually really like my new crew, too. I got a new crew of guys I didn’t know from before, and it’s been working out great. So,  yeah, you spend a lot of time with them. A lot of time. You see some really gnarly stuff. Um, and, uh, these are guys that, at the end of the day,  are there if something happens, you expect them to pull you out of a building. So you, you spend a lot of time with them and really kind of you get to know them pretty well.

Alison: Yeah. Yeah.

Jean : Okay. So I’m curious, Alex, if when, when you get a notification like let’s say, oh, there’s a huge fire up in in Big Bear. How how is it that you’re able to share firemen to go from LA to go up to Big Bear?

Alexsander :  That does happen. We have, um, we have mutual aid contracts with different agencies. So, um, you know, whether it’s with the feds or with Cal Fire, who Cal Fire is basically, it really kind of comes down to who’s like, for lack of a better term, who’s dirt it is. We always talk about that in the fire services, who owns the dirt. Um, and we will have mutual aid with those departments. So, um, you know, there’s federal, we have federal lands within California. So those are controlled by federal firefighting. We have Cal Fire, which runs a lot of the state, um, then my departments, county. So, um, you know, for example, the, uh, the Woolsey Fire,  if you guys remember that in Malibu, it broke out in Malibu, but it ended up going into state land, into state parks. And so Cal Fire took it over and we worked in conjunction with them. And so, um, depending on where there there is a fire and who has mutual aid, We do have like my department has what are called, um, strike teams. And some of those strike teams are designated as, uh, they’ll go out of county, um, and, uh, it’s basically like a strike team is, um, a group of engines with a chief. And so, like, I, I haven’t gone that many times, but I was on one strike team that we ended up in Fresno on fire in 2016. Um, so  we will have that, um, mutual aid with other fire departments. And you saw after the Palisades fire and the Eaton fire driving around, you’d see people from Denver and all over the place. It was it was really like a multiple, multiple thing. So. Yeah.

Alison: And, so you know, you’re like a hero. Everyone, you know, you’re a hero. So do you…. are you aware of that? Does that feel like something to you? Do you like,you’re just a hero that’s walking around, like going to Vons? Like it’s kind of…

Jean : Your like superman without without the cape on.

Alexsander : I think for most of us, we, we take a lot of pride in what we do. And, and we appreciate the love that the public has for us. But we also understand that that comes with a lot of responsibility to uphold that. And um,  there is there’s a lot of responsibility with that. We’re very proud of what we do, but we also appreciate the amount of support that we get from the public for for what we do. And also on day to day, it’s a job for us. So we do feel that pride. But it’s also like, you know, I think you do anything you eventually kind of just get used to, like having a job. It sounds weird to say that, but like, I remember years ago I went skydiving in New Zealand and talking to the guy that was my skydiving instructor, he was kind of like, ho hum, here we go. Another jump. And I was like, skydiving? And he’s like, yeah, this is like my fifth one today. You know? It’s just like you do anything enough. It kind of becomes normal..

Alison: This is going to sound, maybe.. do you cry;   like do you like sometimes just like after a fire, you guys come back and just feel emotion and like, is there that kind of thing…???

Alexsander :  I think fires,  I mean I can’t speak for every firefighter, but fires are fun. And I mean, I hate to say that because when there’s a fire and, you know, I, I lost my house in the Palisades fire…. So I understand now on even more of a level where people are coming from. But fires are fun. It really is like if you have this, maybe it’s something wrong in my brain and all the other firefighters, but you really, I really enjoy fighting fire. It’s it’s what we train to do and it’s fun. The hard part is that we’re  also a medical department. Before I promoted, I was a paramedic. Um, the ones that,  the calls that really get you are the kids. So I’ve been on a couple, uh, kids and teenager fatalities, whether car accidents or drownings, those are the ones that really affect you. Um, yeah, they just recently I wasn’t on this one, but recently my guys just actually saved a kid who was drowning, and they got him out and did CPR and got him back, and he’s fine. Which is amazing. But unfortunately, that doesn’t always go the way you want it to. So I’ve been on quite a few of those, um, that those do affect you. I think kids, more than anything affect you, and I think most people would attest to that. Um, adults are hard, but, you know, it’s kids are just the ones. But yeah, fires. Fires are fun. I mean, for us. And I do understand someone’s losing their property, but when you you spend so much time training and preparing for something, when you actually get to do it, you’re very excited.

Alison: Yeah, right.

Jean : Can you share a couple of, let’s say, two tips that our listeners can take away with that can help safeguard their home from from fires?.. Yes.

Alexsander : I mean, I think the biggest thing that I always tell everybody is make sure that your smoke alarms and your, uh, carbon monoxide detectors are up to date. It’s amazing. You know, we go in my my station right now, we go in about ten houses a day between medical calls and this, that and the other. And it’s amazing to me the amount of people whose houses you walk into. And you hear that little chirp going off, and you’re like, your smoke alarms dying. Yeah. Um, those actually do really save lives. It’s crazy to say, but they do. And carbon monoxide as well. Like, um, don’t discount that. That would be my probably my number one tip. And then, um, probably the other thing that comes to mind for me again is like someone who just went through the Palisades fire is having a plan of what, you know, if you need to evacuate during a wildfire, like having a plan of where you’re going to go, what you need to bring and how you’re going to get there. Um, because, uh, it happens really fast. And so if you kind of practice that ahead of time, Um, and even, like, we live in an apartment building now, just going over with my daughter, like, okay, if your house is on fire, our apartment is on fire, where are you going to go? Um, just having a plan of how you’re going to get out of your place if it does catch on fire, um, is super important. So just just things like that, um, knowing how to shut off your utilities, it’s kind of always wild to me how many people don’t know how to do that, um, or where they are or where they are. Yeah. Just knowing how to shut off. Just your basic just gas, electrical and, um, gas, electrical and water, like, can save a lot of stuff if you have a, you know, a fire on your stove that’s spread into and you know how to shut off your gas, you can, you know, shut some of that down, so to speak. Or if you have an electrical outlet that’s sparking and catching and you know how to shut down the electrical to your house, you can stop that from happening, you know, to some extent. So, um, just knowing those things are important. But yeah, I would say, I would say those are probably my biggest tips that I tell my friends is like working smoke detector and uh, co alarm are super important. Um, knowing your utilities and having a plan if your house does catch on fire.

Jean : Okay. And just does the fire department, if you call them and you say, hey, can you come out to my house and make sure that my smoke alarm is working? Like, let’s say it’s super high up in the ceiling. Do you offer that or is that something.

Alexsander : That’s not usually. Yeah, that’s not usually what we do. Um, if if you call us because you’re having a malfunction and we show up, we’ll do that for you. But, um, if it usually if it’s chirping, that means it needs either a battery. I mean, most modern places are now having them hardwired in, so you don’t ever have to worry about a battery. Um, yeah. So, um, in that case, uh, if and if it is hardwired in usually those are through a company. So what we would say is call the company. If you’re having a malfunction, we’ll come out and make sure you’re not having a fire. But after that, we will recommend that you call whoever installed them and they’ll come and fix it. Um, if it is just chirping because it needs a battery, i mean that’s an easy fix. You just pull it out, put a new battery in and put it back up.

Alison: Um, if you can’t get out, where is the safest place to be in your home during a fire?

Alexsander : Um, I mean, if it’s. Yeah, if you if you can’t get out, probably the best thing to do is if you can get to a room that’s not involved in the fire. So, for example, if your kitchen is on fire and you can’t get out of your bedroom, close your door. Uh, our doors are rated most modern doors are rated to take some level of fire impingement and, uh, close your door. And then everybody, you usually have your cell phone with you. Let dispatch know when you call 911. Let them know what room you’re in and what part of the house you’re in. So if you’re talking to dispatch, say, hey, I’m trapped. I’m in the back, back part back room of my house. Um, you know, and you can say there’s a big there’s a big window or something like that, because we’ll get to you. If we know where you are, we will get to you. Um, but there’s so many people that they get scared and they don’t close that door because they want to try to. But, like, if you close that door, then you’re going to at least stop some level of smoke and fire from getting into that room. You basically are isolating yourself and buying yourself some time. So, um, I think what you don’t want to do is hide under a bed or like, you know, hide in a closet where we can’t find you. Um, but staying low, obviously, smoke and fire go up. So staying low, closing doors will buy yourself some time, while we’re waiting for you or coming to get you, so to speak.

Alison: And what could we do? Like, like the public to help you guys? Like, like, do you like it when people bring brownies to the station, or is there a fund to help you guys, or what can we do to support you and help you guys?

Alexsander : I mean, we’ve got a lot of support. I think you guys always really support us. We just had a tax initiative recently that everyone voted for. And so I think that’s just like we as the fire department just benefit from just like this outpouring of love that you guys have for us. Um, I mean, brownies are always fine, but we don’t expect them. Yeah, we’re we’re all, i mean, you can tell by looking at me, I’m pretty well fed. So, uh, um, but,  I mean, it’s honestly, some of the fun is just when we drive down, everybody always waves at us and wave at us and stuff like that. So, no, you guys, we feel very supported just by, you know, tax initiatives that people pass and everything like that for us.

Jean : I used to do some volunteer work at the Children’s Burn Foundation in Los Angeles.

Alexsander : Wow. Yeah.

Jean : And we would have our annual holiday party at the fire department. And, you know, the firemen would come out and embrace the children and talk about, uh, you know, how to respect a fire rather than play with it as if you know there was no consequence. But actually, um, you know, um, if a, if a candle knocks over what to do and, and things like.

Alison: That’s great.

Jean : And, uh,  you are part of an amazing organization.

Alison: Yeah.

Alexsander : Thank you.

Alison: We’re so happy to speak to you because, uh, so often, like, you just see people you’re waving on trucks, or you buy a group of firemen lunch, but you don’t get to say what’s…. You know? So thank you

Alexsander : No problem. It’s a it’s a great job. Um, it’s not for everybody, obviously. Like, um, but if you like being of service and, you know, it’s a great it’s a great job there, there’s definitely– you’re going to see some gnarly stuff-I’ve seen, I’ve seen more than my fair share of gnarly stuff in only 13 years. But you’re also going to work with a great group of guys, and, um, at the end of the day, you feel a lot of job satisfaction.

Alison:  And we’re saying guys meaning women, but just like fire people.

Alexsander : Yes. Yeah. Sorry. I’m using the guys like both genders.

Alison: I’m from the Bronx. And I say, hey, you guys, and I’m talking to Jean. So it’s the same. Yeah.

Alexsander : Yeah- more and more women are getting hired into the fire service. Um, and, uh, definitely the job is, uh, transforming and changing and not becoming just like, you know, the stereotypical, like, 1930s, what you used to see. It’s a lot more, um, representative of what our community looks like, um, so, yeah,  it’s open to everybody. Um, is that it’s hard work, but if you like working hard and helping people, it’s it’s a good job.

Jean : Nice.

Alison: And when you…. I don’t know if you feel up to talking about it, but you said you lost your home in the Palisades Fire. So that’s very– I don’t know –that brings up emotion for me. Like, how did that inform you or how did that change you? Or did it change you at all or.???

Alexsander : Oh yeah. I mean, it’s very, very, very changing. Yeah. I, um, you know,  we lived in a mobile home park on PCH there, and, uh, the entire park’s gone. I mean, other than there’s some randomly one house survived, but, you know,  we lost everything. Um, it’s definitely given me more interest and perspective into what people have gone through in previous fires. Like I said, I was on the Woolsey Fire in 2018, um, and saved a bunch of houses, but also saw a lot of houses burned down and definitely gives me a little bit more insight into, like, what those people went through. Yeah. Um, i stayed back and tried to save our, our neighborhood, but it just didn’t – it didn’t play out for us.

Alison: So sorry.

Jean : Very, very much so.

Alexsander : Yeah. Thank you.

Alison: Yeah. Should we ask our last two questions? So our podcast is called Inside Wink, and we were wondering what you think that might mean.

Alexsander : Inside wink to me would be… I’ve thought about it before because you mentioned something about it. Uh, to me, it would just be like a kind of like an inside joke between two people. Like a knowing wink. So if, uh, like, me and my wife do it a lot around my daughter, like, she’ll say, we’ll say something to my daughter, and then I’ll look at my wife and give her a wink like that. And that’s that to me is an inside wink. Like an inside joke between two people.

Alison: I love that, that’s great.

Alison: That’s perfect. Perfect answer.

Jean : And then our last question, Alex, is, do you prefer cake, pie or ice cream?

Alexsander : All right… Can I have two? Yes. My my dad’s chocolate cake and Apple Pan’s banana cream pie. Those are my favorites.

Jean : That’s old school.

Alexsander : Yeah, those are my two choices.  Yeah, my dad makes an amazing chocolate chocolate cake and banana cream pie from Apple Pan is like my other favorite.

Alison: Wow.  We have to ask your dad about the cake.

Alexsander : Oh, yeah.  you should definitely get some at some point. It’s really rich, but it’s very good.

Jean : Great.

Alison: Thank you so much. And thank you for everything. You do –  really.

Alexsander : Well. Thanks for the opportunity I appreciate it.

Jean : Your life is such a blessing and we wish you all the best, you and your family.

Alexsander : thank you so much.

Alison: Thank you so much. Have a great day.

Alexsander : You too. Bye now.

Jean : Bye.

Alison: I thought he was so wonderful, right? Because he’s so like he’s like, well it’s my job. And yeah, I enjoy fighting fires like all the things that like, I think I would just be like crying the whole time. You know??

Jean : I think, it’s so true  to how heroes move in the world that they don’t really… That’s the thing… You don’t look at yourself as a hero, like, oh, here I’m coming to save the day. Um, it’s his job, and he’s very good at it. And, uh.

Alison: Exactly. And and I and and God bless him. And God bless his family. Like. Yeah, I know my dad was deputy police commissioner, and I think that was nerve wracking for my mother. Like when even when he would go on assignments somewhere and at that day you couldn’t reach each other. And so I have a little bit of the sense of the trepidation that families. But I love that, he says, you know, that they’re really a part of that job because, everyone needs to be on board.

Jean : True. Everyone has to be okay with with their hours. And because you don’t want to be at the firehouse and then think, oh, my wife hates that I’m here, right?

Alison: I got a caller. Yeah, right.

Jean : She’s Giving me a hard time that I’m at work, so.

Jean :  It is a total family  “yes” type job. And I  would have loved to have talked to him a little bit more about the details of running, you know.

Alison: Yes.

Jean : How does it feel when you pull up to the house or a place and you see the fire? But, um. Yeah, he was great.

Alison: He was great. So thank you so much –  firemen all over the world. And and and thank you so, so much for saving us.

Jean : And and we know that there’s so much more going on that we don’t we’re still not privy to… But this was a great little peek into your world.

Alison: That’s right. And, um, if you do see a fireman, let’s all try to wave to them or buy them a cup of coffee or something. Just just give them a.

Jean : Or brownies or cookies.

Alison: Or go right to brownies.

Jean : Apple pan apple pie and banana cream pie.

Alison: That’s right. So just think about that next time you’re out and about. And thank you. Thanks, Jeannie.

Jean : Thank you, Kathleen Noone, for introducing us to to this wonderful man and to Edward Edwards, the father of Alex. Thank you all.

Alison: Thanks.  Bye bye.

Alison : You get up when the sun comes up?

Jean : Yeah, because the sun comes through my window and I am like, okay, time to get up.

Alison : I get up when the lunch truck dings. I know that’s not true. I’m a little better than that. Yeah, but I don’t. I don’t wake up when the sun comes up, though. It’s so beautiful then, though.

Jean : I love the early morning. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Alison : So do you like the late, late night?

Jean : No. I like to be completely asleep in the late nights.

Alison : I like the late, late night. I like, like one and two in the morning.

Jean : Are you awake then?

Alison : Sometimes.

Jean : Okay.

Alison : I love that time.

Jean : Yeah, well, it’s another very quiet time in the morning.

Alison : Yeah. Yes, yes.

Alison : Um, okay.  I’m very interested today to talk with Carson Toler. Right?

Jean : Yes. Have you ever heard of him before?

Alison : I just know him from Instagram a little bit.

Jean : Got it. I mean, what he has to say is really what so many people…well, what I need to hear,  be reminded of, um. He’s wonderful. Absolutely. He was wonderful.

Alison : He was raised in a mormon household and then came out as queer and then had an accident on a trampoline. Right. And, um, is now in a wheelchair. And that’s a lot to, a lot to go through. And his his spirit, i’m just so in awe of his beautiful spirit, the way I am in all of our guests.

Jean : Yeah, I think in that part is what I’m interested in talking to him about how how he really, um, devoted his, um, consciousness to to seeing beyond the physical.

Alison : Yeah, he’s kind of amazing. I can’t wait to talk to him. All right, well, here he is. Here’s Carson. Hi.

Alison : Hi. Hi.

Carson: Good to meet both of you. It’s so fun that you’re both in the same box.

Alison : Yeah, we hang out a lot together.

Carson: So cool. Okay, good.

Alison : We love each other, and, um, we’re so, we’re so interested and excited to talk to you, because you are such an introspective, thought conscious young man. And that is just what the world needs right now. And so for our, um, listeners, can you just do sort of a little bit of your in history for them?

Carson: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Oh so…. History…, okay. Um, yeah. So I grew up in a big, bustling military Mormon family. I’m the second of six kids and we’re just tight knit, we’re like a little clan. We moved everywhere every couple of years. And, um, my best friends and, uh, just like I don’t know that any of us have a friend that is closer to each other than we are. Um, if that makes sense. So, um. Yeah, I just had a, um… I was a closeted little Mormon gay boy. Right? And so that really impacted sort of the way that I went through life and my adolescence and everything. Uh, but I would say that, i always experienced a kind of existential yearning, even from a really young age, just this sense of I wanted to be up to something. I felt like I was called to be up to something. I had no idea what. Um, but I found myself with a particular restlessness of, like, there’s something really important about this, about all of this, about this life thing. And then the time I placed that in the context of my religious upbringing. And I had some answers for that about the plan to get back to God and overcome sin, and, you know, these ideas of salvation. And and that was helpful and not quite satisfying still, you know?

Carson: So I went on a mormon mission to South America. I came back and in this very pivotal year in 2013, at 23 years old, I came out. And at the end of that year, I was in an incident that broke my neck. I was in a trampoline accident. My family was there. Broke my neck and I became a low level quadriplegic. So I’m kind of between a paraplegic and a quadriplegic. I’m paralyzed from the chest down. My hands are slightly paralyzed. I have all of the other sort of complexities that come with being a quadriplegic. Um, and, everything I thought about how my life would go really changed in that year. Like I had lost the community I’d thought I’d have for a lifetime in the Mormon church. I lost my ideas about the white picket fence and a dog. And like I was determined.., i don’t know why. I was determined to have eight children, and I thought, I’d have a PhD. Yeah. Both my parents have six kids in their family, so I just decided I’d add two, I guess… So I, I sort of I was compelled on a couple of different levels to ask the question, who am I? Who is Carson? And I had these moments of, of, uh, I mean, I remember being in this dark hospital room after injury.

Carson: I mean, I still had, like, fresh stitches in the back of my neck, and I had my phone open and my hands were still there. You get some spinal shock after a spinal cord injury. So you’re more paralyzed than you will be in the future, right? As as that sort of, um, the swelling goes down. So I’m sitting there with these thumbs that barely move. And I was just. Um, sitting in the middle of the night thinking about, like, what? Who is Carson? Outside of everything I’ve ever done that I use to describe myself. I use so much of my doings in my performance. To describe who I was. Um, and yeah, I just had this note out on my phone and it just said paralyzed. Paralyzed, paralyzed. Like, I just couldn’t get that word out of my head. I was like, what does this mean? I can’t believe this is me. So all of that really proved to be the foundation of my quest to find myself, um, my quest to to answer, uh, I don’t have the answer, but the the journey to asking the question, ongoingly, who am I? What matters? What am I here to do? What do I really want?

Alison : That’s. Thank you for sharing all that. I think we we were talking and, you know, we’re torn because, we want to know about you right now…and not focus on the past… you know?   okay. So who are you? What matters? Let’s just get to the meat of it.

Carson: So good. I, I really appreciate, I appreciate that a lot because, um, those, those events were so impactful that there’s a sort of magnetism around them to go back and talk about what happened… And, um, and I have so much content of even just from this week or last week about what really matters. So I love to talk about where I’m at right now. Gosh. Um. What really matters? I’m just going to say out loud, I feel like emotional talking about this and in a way that I is important to me, but that you might be able to hear it at some point or see if you can see me….. Um, I believe, and I feel in my bones, i think a lot of people do right now, that civilization is in a, in a a window. We’re in a window of decision of what we are going to create for future generations. And it’s eminently clear that our ways of being, our values collectively, are not sufficient for perpetuating life on this earth, both for the human species and for the rest of the planet.  and I think that what really matters, is that we make some decisions collectively and personally, that will bend the trajectory of the human predicament away from a crisis and into a moment of crossing over into something new. Um, and I have and I’m constantly thinking about this…. Um, because things are speeding up.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : Yes.

Carson: And that window…. I don’t want to create artificial urgency, but there is a window in which we need to act. Um, and so I think it really matters that we grapple with that as a collective. And I think that that starts with grappling with those questions inside of ourselves first.

Alison : How do we want to live?

Carson: Yeah.

Jean : Yeah.

Carson: Yeah. How do we want to live and and all of those same existential questions of who am I? Um, where am I out of alignment with myself? Where am I living a lie? Where are my values not reflective of who I want to be?  I think of a concept a lot that I use in my work called rewilding. And rewilding is a concept in the world of eco restoration, and it’s one of the solutions to biodiversity loss that that’s being experienced on the planet. And the idea is that when you take away all of the destructive human activity that, um, and this is, you know, a more complicated concept because it does sometimes include introducing new Keystone, Keystone species and things like that. But when you remove everything that isn’t true or everything that doesn’t work, all that destructive human activity, nature knows exactly how to thrive. It knows how to recreate itself. It knows how to create these ecosystems that are just teeming with life. And when I came across that concept, it rang so true for my own life, which was, I have to take away everything that’s causing me suffering because, there is a true nature or a natural self that knows exactly how I’m supposed to live and who I am supposed to be. So when we talk about that individual work, that’s the frame that I think about it in is who am I not? So I can make a space for who I am to emerge, to create a life that’s in alignment with that.

Jean : I mean, I think for me, Carson, what what you are expressing is so much of what, um, like a type of a spiritual, a spirituality, a shift in perception from being identified as the outer body. Jean has long hair. Jean has green eyes. Jean is five. Nine. Allison is..looks this way. It’s really asking us to me what you’re saying, to look beyond the physical and see the the soul. And and I think that shift in perception, it’s up for all of us now. Like, where are we not being honoring of our soul?

Carson: Um.

Jean : You know, we we do get caught up in how we look. And and I heard in one of your podcasts about, um, especially for the masculine. It’s a very do, do, do.

Carson: Yeah. Yeah.

Jean : And and I do think this feminine energy is emerging where we’re asked to, Be… like who are we being?

Carson: Mhm.

Jean : Who do you really want to be in the world rather than you know, it’s like going deeper because we are not going to survive if we deal with life on a very superficial level.

Carson: Yeah.

Alison : Your website talks a lot about freedom. I want to understand what that means to you. And also, you said something really interesting about the rewilding… We saw that nature’s rewilding during Covid.

Carson: It’s so true. Such a perfect example. Yes.

Alison : You know.

Carson: Yeah.

Alison : It was beautiful. But what is freedom to you?  And freedom from what? Because I know what I think. But I want to hear you.

Carson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, it’s a great question, that I don’t have an answer to. Um, despite talking all about it, you know. Um, and I think that I’ll, I’ll make that disclaimer right off the top. I have spent y’all, all of my life thinking that there that coming to an answer was a measure of success, that coming to an answer was the point of a question.

Alison : Um.

Carson: I don’t think it is anymore.

Alison : Fantastic.

Carson: I actually think that the question itself is, is the prize is it’s in the exploration of that with a willingness to not know. Yeah. That keeps this constant space for discovery and transformation open. So with that being said, I’m going to like talk about freedom without giving a direct answer, but I’ll talk about some of the ways in which I experience it, which is…. You know, prior to my spinal cord injury, prior to being paralyzed, I thought of freedom as, you know, the way that we think of freedom in, in, you know, like the United States, which is like my ability to cause a change in the physical world. It’s like my freedom to to move about, to create a life, um, sort of in yeah, in time and space. Right? Whether that’s like money or whether that’s the ability to change my body, it’s like the idea of there’s a certain kind of freedom in a person’s relationship to their circumstances, if that makes sense.

Alison : Yep.

Jean : What I was struck by when I broke my neck was that there were lots of things I couldn’t change suddenly, and it was one of the first moments as a young 23 year old that I was like, oh, all of that, like power that I had to cause change in my life to like, produce outcomes. It wasn’t happening anymore. And I had used that kind of power and freedom to experience…. Yeah… I guess to experience freedom. So now I was required to find a certain kind of, it’s like what Jean was just talking about, the difference between being and doing is like, could I experience freedom in my being, in a circumstance I couldn’t change… Something that was truly fixed. Like, could I be at peace and joyful or filled with purpose in a body that I mostly can’t move and feel? And while I am in perpetual chronic pain and while while I have constant disruption? And I went on a very long quest to to answer those questions or to find freedom in those circumstances. And I ultimately found that through philosophy. Right? By asking questions about, like getting under the premises of of my beliefs, what makes me, me? Do I really need to do these things to be free? And so that’s why I’ve become so passionate about the idea of that existential freedom is because I think that humans can be at– we have the freedom to choose who to be in any circumstance. So I like to play around with both of these in my coaching practice– is what are the things that you want to change in your circumstances? While also, why don’t we look at the way that your being is in relationship to those circumstances? So we are playing around with different kinds of power and freedom. Um, but I find a lot of I find a lot of solace reminding myself, that I am free to choose, no matter what.  um. I’m experiencing this live as we are speaking, I blew out my knee last week, um, in like a horrible accident.

Jean : Ohhh.

Alison : oh, Sorry.

Carson: Yeah, it was really disturbing and difficult, and I sort of like, I blew out my knee, and they told me if you were a walking person, this would probably lead to, like, a knee replacement at some point. And I was like, right back in there being like, who am I going to be about this? This makes my life… I just became more disabled… I don’t know for how long? Um, where is freedom here? You know, playing around with the things that I don’t have power over. So.

Alison : I feel like you’re a modern day philosopher, Carson. I’m not joking.

Carson: That means a lot to me. Thank you.

Alison : I really do.

Jean : And I think, you know, the power of your thought… And what you’re sharing is um,  i think we all go through, not not to the level that, you know, you know, I’m, I’m able to get up and walk out, but like, it is like what you were saying, it’s like that freedom from the physical…. and yet we have to be in this physical. So what helps you, um, when you’re having a rough day? Like who? Is there someone? Is there,  like who do you lean in? What do you lean into to help you through the days that are more hard?

Carson: Totally. Yeah. Well, my first line of practice is to, to be aware that I am… My reflex will be to resist whatever grief or suffering is coming my way.

Alison : Mhm.

Carson: Right so,,,

Jean : You try to go– oh I’m you know,  this is really not happening.

Carson: Yeah, I know that my go to will be to be strong or power through. And I’ve done this enough now, that I know how to flag it and be like, okay something horrible just happened…. So I’m going to be particularly attuned to moments when I’m feeling rage. I feel like I need a good cry. Like  so I make sure that I’m in touch with whatever that wave wants to take me on. After I blew out this knee, I, it was probably three days and like, my anxiety was through the roof, like my head was, I could just feel like my blood pressure was up. Yeah. And my body was like, what just happened, you know? And my body is confused when pain like that happens and it responds in a particular way. Um, but, uh, yeah, I like, make sure that I have the space to grieve. And I was able, with some loved ones to, like, break down and have a good sob about it, like about three days after– the combination of fear and,  just To sadness and like and angry. And this was so stupid. This didn’t have to happen. And also, you know, I’m young, uh, and I have my whole life ahead of me. And this is only going to happen more. I’m going to be more disabled, and I’m scared. And what about all of the things I love? And I’m going to lose more? And so, to answer your question, Jean, uh, the I like, I like make sure that I’m prepared to move through those feelings. And I know that I can’t create anything if like, I need to really let my heart break. I think that’s like the wisest thing I ever chose to do after I became paralyzed is I was like, I’m going to let my heart be totally broken. Like there’s a tidal wave of grief coming. I’m not running. I’m going to lay down and I’m going to submit. I’m going to get back up and look for the people who love me.

Jean : Yeah.

Carson: So I let it wash over and it let me tell you, no matter how many times I practice it, everything in my body is like, don’t do it. Run like,right? Because it’s painful. When you visit some of like the most visceral pieces of your humanity. So I do that. I make sure that I have space to do that. Sometimes it’s like waiting to throw up when you’re nauseous. For me, when it’s like, I know this is coming, and I know if I know, I could just barf, then I’m going to like, feel better.

Alison : Yep.

Carson: And sometimes you can’t make that happen. And it just is going to happen on its own time. So there’s a patience there. I wait for it to happen. I really talk about it. I process it, um, and I do have to tap into spirit like, because when I’m afraid about my mortality, my perspective is right here in the now. And there’s fear there. There’s like hurt there. Scarcity is there. The sense that this is all wrong. Like I’m like, I just, like, ruined my life. Um, when I can take a pause and, like, get in touch with those first questions. Why am I here? What really matters? I can create a kind of elevation or an altitude above that. Where I can find a peace, that will hold me through anything. And I have to go find that sometimes, especially when I’m in the fear and scarcity and like, I’m paralyzed and I’m going to get hurt, or I could be killed so easily. Or, you know, all of those, like, big scary questions. So getting back in touch with the spirituality and I don’t know exactly like who it is or what it is that I’m being in touch with. Sometimes I think it’s like a higher self. Sometimes I think it’s like a truth in the universe or God. But, um… I’ll share with you there’s this– i’m not Christian or religious anymore. There’s a line in the book of Job after he’s been tried, like lost his family, lost his material wealth, lost his friends. He’s, like sick. He just lost everything. And he has this line where he says, and though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God. And there’s like this moment, and that’s the elevation I’m talking about, like that spirit of being like, come what may. And I’m clear about what I’m here for on this planet. And until, like my last breath, I will be engaged in that work. So take my body.

Alison : You know, you said something. You said something somewhere, i’m so. I don’t have a brain to remember. You said something somewhere about plan A and and, um, i cannot tell you how that has totally affected me. Like, on this really weirdly deep level. I can’t stop talking about it, i can’t stop thinking about it, um, my my eldest child came out as non-binary a few years ago. I thought I was the coolest mom, prior to that, I was not. I needed to learn that society had taught me incorrect lessons. And when you said plan A, all the stuff in my life that I consider trauma, I went, oh, wow… Like, I can feel it in me right now. And I thought that was one of the more powerful things I’ve ever heard. And at some points I could allow myself to go way up with it, but it kind of scares me still. Do you know? Like, it’s it’s, um…. So I wanted to thank you, and also sort of deconstruct that a little with you. The whole idea of a plan A. Um. Do you, is that still something that you carry with you? Is is that still where your your heart and soul is based? Or are you beginning to think that there maybe are no plans at all?

Carson: Yeah.

Alison : You know?

Carson: Yeah, it’s a it’s such a fun, interesting question. Like all of that. Um, yeah. The more like, the longer I’m alive, the more I feel, I feel excited, i’m not going to use the word certain, but the more I feel in my gut that what has happened to me in my life matters.  Um, even this knee thing, looks like just some stupid accident. It was a total, like, just freak accident situation, you know?

Alison : Mhm.

Carson: But even in that there’s, it seems to be imbued with some kind of spirit or meaning.

Alison : Wow.

Carson: And I no longer believe… I used to think that I was just this like, meaning making machine. I’m like this human that created meaning, you know, in order to survive. And I’m this like mechanism that just creates arbitrary meaning. I can say whatever I want, right? But I find that I can, through a spiritual practice, locate meaning in a felt kind of way, in a way that I no longer force myself to rationalize.

Alison : Oh.

Carson: Right. Because that’s the instinct is to be like, well, how do you know it’s plan A? What’s plan B? What’s plan B? Prove it.

Alison : Right. That’s exactly the fear level for me. You know?  Like what you’re saying is right.

Carson:  From what I’m hearing about what you’re sharing, and by the way, I appreciate that so much, and your reflection and just getting a, you know, a window into your own relationship with having a plan A or  and and to to give listeners some context. You know, the idea is that, things happen in a way that feels like they diverge from our, our plan or from a path. And we go, no, no, this is not part of the plan.

Jean : Yeah.

Carson: You know, um, and honestly, this circles back to our conversation about the different kinds of power and freedom.

Alison : Right, exactly.

Carson: So plan A diverges and then you’re going, whoa, wait one second. Um, and the freedom piece like that existential freedom piece is then to, like, really pause and look about what was it about your relationship to plan A that you were so interested in or attached? And what is it about this twist that feels scary?  What would it look like to incorporate that into your sense of plan A? Do you have the freedom to be wrong about your plan?

Alison : right.

Carson: Right. And these are all choices and explorations of that I think are inherently– I think they’re both cognitive and philosophical and spiritual.

Alison : Yes, yes I agree. Yeah.

Jean : Well, I, you know, it’s, uh, you’re so deep and I’m and I’m just, um, reveling in in the words that you’re saying. I feel  this awakening, this new way of being that we, we are all going through…. There’s a quote, you know,  when the tide rises, all, all boats rise. Right. It’s like it used to be that  certain people that would have to rise… But we are rise and change our perception in the way that we’re being in the world. But now the energies are just coming in full force and we’re just all asked to to level up. Yeah. You know, and and I was sharing with Allison before you got on that, you know, it doesn’t have an event. Doesn’t have to happen directly to us, we can learn and be grown by our friends. Like, you know, Allison’s child coming out was was huge for me, too, because of my… I thought, wow, I really assume a lot that people move in the world this way. And and for you, Carson being in a wheelchair… Do you notice that a lot as you move in the world? Like, do you sense people treating you differently or…?

Carson: Yeah.

Jean : Yeah.

Carson: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And you’re asking just to be clear about sort of like my, uh, my experience of how just people treat me as a visually disabled person.

Jean : yeah. Like when you’re out in the world, do you? Yeah.

Carson: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I’ve become a little desensitized to it because it’s been happening for so long.

Jean : Yeah.

Carson: Um, I had I was with I was with a new friend, like a gym buddy a couple of months ago. And we, we rolled through the gym and he, like, turned to me. He’s like, does everyone smile at you like that all the time? Because there’s this sort of infantilizing cutie smile that I get. It’s like, ah, the little guy in the wheelchair, you know, like, oh, you’re so amazing for being here. And, um, it used to enrage me, mostly because it would, like, bring up my own stuff of wanting to be like, don’t you dare look at me like that. I am, I am just like you. I’m not different. And, um. Yeah, I’m so used to it now. And I know how to be in a dance with some of these preconceived ideas. Um. And I know how to speak through them or around them, or address them in ways that, um, took me a second to learn how to do that, because I wasn’t so sure about what was going on or how to speak to it. But yeah, so so if I want to correct something, I know how to do that. And, um. Yeah. And I know how to take it, like, not take it personally.

Alison : Do we do you think we live in a loving world?

Carson: I think that the that the cosmos is driven by love as like a fuel, like an actual force. So yes. And I think that for a lot of reasons, um, we’ve all become players in this cultural game of prioritizing power, utility, efficiency, climbing the ladder, personal success in a way that undermines love. I actually think that’s the nature of the crisis that we’re in, is it’s a, um, it’s a crisis of intimacy, a crisis of love that has created these systems. It’s I mean, you can’t be filled with love and, um, tear down half the trees on the planet. Right.

Alison : Right.

Jean : Yeah, yeah, I was to to what you’re saying… I was going to ask you, what what do you feel is going on in our world today with, with all like… But you’re you’re talking about that right now.

Carson: Mhm.

Jean : Um yeah.

Carson: You know when I — so, so in 2020, no like 2021. Um I, I knew all about the climate crisis. I knew about what was happening. But then I like actually dove into the research and I bought a book and it ruined my whole life because, I finally learned about what was happening and my training as a coach, and also like my philosophical training, always has taught me to come back to this question of being. The ontological question. The being precedes the doing. And that’s super simplistic. It’s not a rule, because all of those things sort of like live together and flow…. The being, in the doing. But I have found it so much more effective to look at,  who am I being that has me producing these results in my life, right? So then when I look to everything that was happening on the in the climate, I became fixated on the question, where did this happen? In how human beings, the human species defines what it means to be a human?

Jean : Mhm.

Carson: Like where did we make some decisions about who we are that would lead us to be capable of destroying our home.

Alison : Right.

Carson: Because there had to be something. So, um, when you ask, you know what, what, what I think is happening? I have I have something else I want to say, but I’ll finish this thought, which is…. In certain points throughout history, humans decided that we weren’t animals, right? Uh, like the, like, dualist theory that has the mind separate from the body. And actually the body sort of like being an enemy.   Like something to overcome, something to fight against. And that the human mind was like this God power that was above all of it. And so this separation of nature and the human mind is what in part allowed us to start to begin this mechanistic view of, oh, they’re just trees. They’re not sentient beings. They’re just animals. It’s just water. It’s, you know. Right. And we see ourselves as divorced from the natural world in a way that would allow us to create this artificial separation. Um, for for anyone who’s who’s interested, I found a podcast, um, called The Great Simplification, with Nate Hagens.  And he talks about the systems view of what’s happening to, in what he calls the human predicament.   And he talks about all of the different dynamics that have us be where we are. And he calls it the human predicament also known as the meta crisis, which is the view of the many crises we face that threaten civilization in, in, you know, um, important ways. Um, his work looks at everything from like the, the human question,  to the social structure question, to the infrastructure question around technology…. So it’s like, it brings science and spirit and philosophy and psychology all together in a brilliant way that has really emboldened me in my own work, um, and equipped me with a lot of understanding on how to tackle this issue. Um, but I believe my work and my contribution here is to support people in answering and searching for that question…. the ontological piece, who am I?

Alison : You know, I think that’s- you’re fantastic… But, other than that, I think that, um, I feel that we’ve lost the communal sense of responsibility to each other for the planet, for consciousness. I feel that at some point that left us,  I think  human beings had it for a while, and maybe it was reflected in indigenous peoples, but I feel like exactly what you’re saying, you know? Do you want, to move around? We’re almost done.

Carson: Oh, perfect. I’m just, uh, I get I’m just fidgety in my chair. Like, this wheelchair is very helpful for moving around. And when I’m stationary, it’s not totally comfortable. So that’s all you’re seeing?

Alison : Yeah, we’re almost done, though. We just. You are? I first of all, I wish I could be there to hug you.

Jean : Yes. Me too.

Alison : I just want to give a shout out to your parents, because I think they helped you through times. From what I read. And I just think that is so beautiful, especially from maybe a mormon background. I’m not really familiar, but I wanted to give them a shout out and just applaud the fact that you’re thinking so deeply about things that really affect us all, because I think that that kind of thought, even just saying it here has a ripple effect.

Jean : You are a thought leader…You are a powerful, benevolent thought leader.

Carson: Thank you.  I receive that… Like, thank you. Um, I have to confess, I have been spending so much of my time in a fallow period…Being with these concepts and frankly, doing them myself, like I am the number one, live to win, blue ribbon… Give me the gold star. I want to beat out the competition. Like, that’s – like individualist, i’ll do it myself. I’ll do it better than you. Like, that’s how I grew up. And it’s how I don’t know, however, I wound up in the world, had me really be interested in playing that game in society.

Alison : Yeah.

Carson: And I have been doing like, this constant unraveling for the last 11 years to, to find and play around with other ways of being, so that I’m not beholden to those games that were causing me so much suffering.

Alison : Right.

Carson: Um, the confession part is I’ve been this fallow period, and, uh, I’m just a hair’s breath away from sending a final book proposal in about these topics. I want to create community around the experience of like a collective rewilding. It is so hard to do alone.

Alison : Yeah.

Carson: Like, to both of your, both of you talked about what it was like to actually be in community in the way that someone else’s struggles could, like, be learn from them in community, And so my dream is to create this movement of humans who are rewilding. Separately and together in a way that we start to contribute to our own tiny corner of the universe where we give our love in our own unique ways. Right? But like as a collective, to create this crossing moment for us.

Alison : You know, this whole time I’ve been thinking, I hope this guy writes a book.

Carson: I love writing more than anything. And I tell you, I’ve been I’ve been sitting on this for a very long time, waiting for waiting for the moment. And it’s coming.

Alison : Well, can we interview you again when the book comes out?

Carson: Oh my gosh. Yes.

Alison : Excellent… We have two final questions. Our name of our podcast is Inside Wink, and we were wondering what you think that means.

Carson: You know, I was thinking about thinking about this…. Um, I think an inside wink- feels like, i don’t know if there’s a right answer to this.

Alison : They are all right.

Carson:  Speaking of the answers, um, I’m telling you, I still have that reflex. I’m like, oh, what’s the– give me the A plus.  hahahah   So inside wink I think of the moment, when you and someone you care about or love, um, have knowledge of something, or like this, like it’s it’s sort of like, it’s not like an inside joke, right? But it’s like a moment of of knowing where you share a little a cue – to give them a wink, like, I see you. We’re on the same page, like a little cue of, you know how it is when you’ve got someone and, um, you’re both experiencing the same thing. You have the  both have the same, like, little moment, and you share a little wink as a playful nod to each other. That’s what I think of.

Alison : That’s perfect.

Jean : That’s beautiful.

Alison : That’s so you!

Carson: Something playful…. Something also generous because, it’s usually like, you know, when you’re humoring something or you, you don’t want to outright be like, you know….

Jean :  I love that.

Alison : Thank you.

Jean : Yes. Okay. And this is really a very significant question. Uh, do you prefer cake, pie or ice cream?

Carson: Oh Man? Pie.

Alison : Really?

Carson: Pie, I think yeah, it’s because it’s got, you know, I can tell you a cream pie, like a coconut cream, a banana cream.

Alison : Oh.

Carson: Man. Yeah, I’ll go for a pie any day.

Alison : Yeah. That’s good.

Carson: Instagram has decided that I love watching people eat delicious pastries.  And so it’s all I’m seeing right now on my feed.

Alison : It’s pastry porn.

Carson: Yeah, exactly. Like, this dude is so hungry.

Alison : I can’t thank you. We can’t thank you enough. You really are an amazing person.

Carson: Thank you so much. Yeah. Thanks for you…yea…go ahead.

Jean : You’re a blessing. you walk this world as a blessing.

Alison : And I can’t wait.

Jean :  And and even though you have your challenges, I, I know that, um, there is this higher power that is loving you and and supporting you and i’m so moved by this, by this, our interview.

Alison : And I can’t wait to see what comes up and just sign us up for the rewilding.

Carson:  oh, great. I can’t wait.  I can’t wait. I feel like we’re already in it together. And um,  I feel being with you, to even across from this screen. Like, I feel, i feel the connectedness and the being up to something that matters. And I’m just so grateful for this space you made for me to talk about where I’m at right now. Um, so, so thank you,

Alison : Because that’s where you are right now is so exciting.

Jean : And it’s full of possibilities.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : It’s full of infinite Possibility. And you are a demonstration of that…I am, Alison is,  everyone everyone listening? You know,  we are.

Alison : It’s what you said. It’s the choices.

Jean :  exactly what you said.

Alison : Thank you so, so, so much.

Jean : I can’t wait to hear….

Alison : I can’t wait to hang out with you more.

Carson: I can’t wait, thank you.

Alison : Thank you so, so much.

Alison : Have the most beautiful day.

Carson: I will you to. We’ll talk more.

Alison : Bye bye.

Jean : Okay.

Alison : Okay.

Jean : Well, yeah. That was very moving.

Alison : I don’t know. I felt so much looking at him and listening to him. I really felt like I was in the presence of, like, a philosophical thinker for our time.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : He’s so, um, right on the edge of something so like almost ethereal that and allowing us to just question when he said, I always thought that the answer was the point, but now I think the question is the point. Like that’s…

Jean : Yes.

Alison : I don’t know. I think he’s so interesting and fascinating and kind of exciting to be around.

Jean : Yes, He has a wisdom about him that is um, really expansive.

Alison : Yes. I mean, I am really interested to see the whole time I was thinking, this man has to write a book because he has to have, like, some sort of legacy that people can read on and on and, um, and to  be such a young man.  um, I don’t know, I just feel, I feel so inside, so charged.

Jean : I, feel like really quiet inside. Like in sort of like an irreverent type of way. Yeah. Wow. Um, I really can’t wait to do the transcription and hear all the words, the words and everything, but my goodness. And I’m so glad. Allison, you acknowledged his parents. That was so great.

Alison : And I hope he likes them.

Jean : Yeah, I think he does. I think from a couple of the interviews I heard. So and I also want to say, Allison, that first question out the gate, that that was really wonderful of you to ask him that.

Alison : Thanks.

Jean : I just want you to know that.

Alison : You know, to go back, like, let’s go forward, like let’s solve something.

Jean : I think he’s so appreciated that. And, um, you know, you open the door to a deeper level. So you were great.

Alison : Thank you, Jean…. That’s so sweet of you.

Jean : It’s true.

Alison : That’s so sweet. And I do have to say, now I do…. I really want some pie.

Jean : Okay, well, we’ll get you some pie.  Like, get this woman some pie.

Alison : I was like, yes, I’m with you everywhere, carson. Let’s do it!  I hope you guys really enjoyed him as much as we did. He’s just really so special. And, Carson, thank you so, so much.

Jean : You are truly wonderful in every sense of the word.

Alison : and can’t wait to see what else you’re up to.

Jean : Absolutely.

Alison : Have a great day, everybody!

Jean : Bye.

Alison : Bye.

Alison: Click click click. We’re like waiting.

Jean: And we’re off and running. There we are.

Alison: How are you?

Jean: I’m great. I love seeing you.

Alison: I love seeing you. And we’ve both been a little busy.

Jean: We have been. Yeah. But you are redoing your home.

Alison: Yeah, I’m redoing bits and pieces of my home to make sure that, um, it stays lovely.

Jean: Well, it is lovely. And what you’re doing is, is some extra zhuzhing. And it looks beautiful, Alison I love what you’re doing.

Alison: Thank you. I think homes are so important.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: Because, uh, you know, you want to feel cozy.

Jean: And you want to come home to something that, you know,

Alison: Makes you feel happy, right… Even if it’s just little changes.

Jean: Yes.

Alison: And speaking of happy ……

Jean: And changes,

Alison: ..Right. I really enjoy this man. Um, Danny Miller. And I know him because I have acted, actually, and am friends with his wife because we were both at the same theater company.

Jean: Right. I remember going to her one woman show, which was very powerful.

Alison: Oh my gosh, he talks about it in this book… I love her and she’s such a wonderful person. Just like him.

Jean: Yes. So Danny Miller has authored three wonderful books. Um,  “The Gifts of Acceptance”, “Losing Control, Finding Serenity”, and “The Way of the Wave”, which is what we’re going to talk to him about this afternoon.

Alison: Yeah. And he really he’s very comforting because he allows you to feel your feelings and gives you options.

Jean: Yes. And he also really exposes his own struggles and, um, brings so much wisdom to to what he went through after after great reflection over his life. And it shows you that, you know, you can take whatever it is going on in your life and make it something that can transform your thinking, transform your consciousness..

Alison: And, scene–  that was excellent. That’s exactly right, that was excellent.

Jean: Well thank you, Alison, it’s hanging out with you.

Alison: Oh no. I can only tell you about tiles and flooring. That’s all I’m good for. Um, but here he is, Dan Miller. Well, Danny. Danny miller.

Danny: Hello.

Alison: Oh,HI!

Danny: Hi. How you doing?

Alison: Great.

Jean: Okay, well, Danny, you have authored another beautiful transformational book called “The Way of the Wave. And congratulations.

Danny: Thank you so much. Thank you, I appreciate that.

Alison: Reading it was such a pleasure because I, um, I see so much of you in it. Not not because, uh, we know each other a little, but because you’re so vulnerable in it and you really express, uh, things that you’ve gone through. How was that for you? Like, was that how was that to be that vulnerable?

Danny: It was a decision I made. I, I intended it and wanted it to be a more personal book. Um, and so I did make the decision that I’m going to share, um, my struggles, uh, the challenges that I’ve had, um. The shortcomings and how I managed to improve upon those or reduce those shortcomings. And so I did use mainly my personal stories, whereas in the other books, uh, I would interview and talk to people about their stories and maybe 1 or 2 of mine. So I wanted this to be a personal book. Uh, I intended it to be, uh, short chapters. I didn’t want them to be extensive chapters. And I looked at it sort of like, uh, more of a guide, uh, and more more from the intention that this is what’s worked for me. Maybe it can work for you. You know, I, I feel that I’m sort of a typical, normal person. And I made that assumption that there’s others like me that struggle with the same issues, their fears, their anxieties, things like that. So that’s why at the end of each chapter, I have some prompts, uh, that include a few prompts. So the idea is that people can, um, look at their own lives from the perspective of what I’ve shared in the chapters, and see if it applies to them or how it may apply to them.

Danny: So that was the idea of the book. And, uh, I am very happy about it. It’s, uh, there was a journey that started almost 40 years ago with this book. Um, after I had undergone a five year period of some pretty traumatic events. Um, and I went to the beach one day and just started looking at the waves. Uh, just to get away and find some peace. And it was that day. And seeing the waves that I just instinctively, intuitively connected with them, that this could be the keys for my healing, because I really needed a lot of healing. And that was the beginning, uh, of a book. I did some writings, and the book was called, “The Wave” and and during Covid, you know, we’re moving boxes to storage and we have all this time on our hands. Uh, I came across 15 chapters of the book that, uh, I wrote in the late 1980s, and I thought, wow, I couldn’t complete it then because I didn’t know enough about it. I felt and understood it, but it sharing it, explaining it, articulating it, uh, was one thing, and I don’t think I had enough life experiences. So, uh, during Covid, I started writing and it just sort of flowed and came together and, uh, it was just a great joy in doing it.

Alison: That’s fantastic.

Jean: It is and and it’s so clever to use a body surfer.

Alison: Yeah.

Jean: The metaphor of the wave, the ocean, the body surfer to address all these human tendencies that that we all go through. And and I just want to say, Danny, I and I think Alison was alluding to this, your vulnerability, to really share that with your audience, because that gave us like gave me permission to say, yeah, I do that too. I do that too.

Danny: yeah,

Jean: Uh, you know, sometimes, well my mother used to say, and it’s a quote, you know, you see the plank in someone’s..NO, it’s, “You see the speck in someone’s eye, but you don’t see the plank in your own eye.” And I’m thinking that when I was reading your book, I’m like, yep, I’ve gone through that.

Alison: And I love that you, um, the controlling Danny I could relate to so much. And I think the most interesting part was the controlling of people you love– thinking you’re helping. Could you talk a little bit about that?

Danny: Sure… As I shared in the book, is I was a major controller, uh, in so many ways, not only work, but also also at home. It was like with my son, i was father knows best and didn’t hesitate to let him know –until he got older and got a little dismissive of that. Right? Um, but the idea behind the control is, first of all, there’s there’s a shortage of humility. There’s a feeling that, um, I know what’s best for others or I know what they should do, and while sometimes that may be true, but most, most of the time it’s not okay because I’m not them. And so there’s I say there’s there’s a lack of humility. And I’ve learned this so many times that I don’t often know what’s best for me. So who am I to share that with others? Right. But controllers tend to do that because they they have expectations and they want people to do certain things, especially their loved ones, their family. Um, and, you know, and as I’ve analyzed it myself, you know, you can say, well, it’s because I’m being benevolent, because I want what’s best for them. But I don’t, you know, if I really looked at it honestly, and that’s what I try to do. It’s mainly because I want what’s best for me. Yeah. See, and that’s why if I expect someone to do certain things a certain way is because I’m going to like that better. I’m going to feel better about that. Right. So, um, giving up control, letting go of control. And that’s why, you know, the body surfing and the waves. The waves are in control, not us. I used to body surf. You learn that right away. They are in control. And. Well, the best thing we can try to do is align with them. You know, and that’s why I get into the idea and the concept of acceptance.

Alison: Yeah.

Danny: We need to accept those waves as they are if we’re going to be able to align and flow with them in any meaningful way. So the whole idea of the wave in a, in a very over essence is when you let go of control, it releases the currents, the life currents in this case. And when we accept them, we can accept their the reality and try to align with the ones that are best for us, or to make the choices that are best for us under those circumstances. So we got to, in a way, let go but we also have to accept both of those things.

Alison: Or how are they.. How letting go of your own control and accepting what is in control or or  somebody else? Is that what you mean? Like, it’s interesting that you’re seeing them as two separate things, I like that.

Danny: I’m not quite. Can you say that again?

Alison: You’re saying, you’re saying, “letting go” and I always equated “letting go” as the same thing as “acceptance.”

Danny: Oh, okay.

Alison: Do you know, and I think it’s interesting that you’re showing me an option that maybe it’s two separate things.

Danny: I think so, in other words, I look at acceptance as the antidote for control. When we’re accepting people as they are things they are, we don’t need to try to control them. So in that sense, the more accepting we are, the less controlling we are. They’re almost like two sides of the same coin. And what interferes with that quite a bit, or what I refer to in the book or the wave obstacles. Right, so the idea is, is I was sitting watching the waves, i said, yeah, I want to go with the flow, you know, and but how do you do that? You know, and I didn’t know, you know, you always hear about it. And so that was really part of the journey is, is, uh, what can, um, get me on the flow and maintain the flow longer than what I normally could? And to that, it comes into the idea not only letting go of control. Um, I have to reduce my expectations and my judgments. Because when when I’m judging others or expecting too much of others, my focus is on them and not on me, you know? And the whole thing to me is I’ve looked at expectations, is there’s a perceived need, i think that I’m looking to others to fulfill a need of mine. And look, only I, I truly can, can fulfill my own needs. Someone can support me and maybe love me. Uh, but it’s up to me, you know, to fulfill my needs in any really true, meaningful way, you know? So those are some of the obstacles I have other, you know, others, you know, fear and anger and limited thinking. That’s why I call the obstacles there.

Alison: Wonderful chapter. That was that was a great part of the book. Yeah.

Jean: I mean, we could spend all afternoon just talking about.

Danny: Yeah.

Jean: Breaking down each one of them. And, um, I think Alison and I wanted to touch upon one that spoke to her.

Danny: Okay.

Jean: And while I’m speaking, I’ll just say the one about…well They’re were all so great, Danny, but when you talk about the lull wave, you know, I thought that was so interesting for me because I have a couple of friends that are going through a time in their life where not much is happening.

Danny: Yes.

Jean:  and and what do you do with that time? So can you talk about.

Danny: Sure. Because I as I share in the book, after the publication of,.. The Gifts of Acceptance, there was all that lead up and all the excitement. I had a lull, you know, or you it happens often with something that we’re intensely involved with, you know. And then it ends or eases it up, and then what then? And, uh, at first, you know, I included under the obstacles. Okay. But it’s not really necessary. An obstacle, I don’t think. Uh, it could be as much an enhancer and obviously a lot of lulls during Covid and things like that, and I like, like what you just shared. Um, I had a friend not long ago, he just retired from a very, uh, active career, uh, environmental world and for worked for the state of California in which he was going everywhere doing everything. And then he retired. And so he was the first time we got together, um, with our wives as well,  he was sharing, you know, he’s just feeling this discomfort, you know, and he’s it’s just sort of reanalyze, I think. And, I said, Stanley, you’re having a low and he said, what’s that?, first of all, it’s normal. It’s normal. Everybody has it. It’s part of life. So try to embrace that and accept that, you know, and the equation is sort of like if, if, uh, if surfers are out surfing and all of a sudden there’s no waves, you know, what do they do? Right.

Danny: Uh, a lot of them go home and wait for another day. You know, and so, uh, I think if we look at lulls as a means of, uh, a time when we can explore, learn more about ourselves, uh, try new, new things, maybe that we didn’t try or have the time for before. Um, and just trust. And that’s one of the big enhancers I talk about is trusting the flow, uh, which I’m learning to apply more and more. It’s becoming bigger and bigger. Acceptance is big, but trust goes right along with that is. So when I’m in a low, I just will trust that things are going to be okay. You know? Trust trust is maybe I’m going to wait around, wait in the water a little bit and wait for new currents to come. But that’s okay. That’s just part of life. Um, not that it’s not, uh, that there’s not discomfort, but it reduces that, when you put it in that perspective and that there’s nothing wrong with this. I don’t know if you ever, I used to get into this thing, is that I’m being unproductive…That feeling of being unproductive is. What is that exactly? I mean, in the sense that we have to be productive all the time? Right. And so it’s sort of with that idea that it’s okay to be unproductive for a while. Yeah. Okay.

Jean: My my beloved late husband, Alex, used to have a very hard time when the show was on hiatus. Hiatus?

Danny: Yeah, right.

Jean: He would come into the kitchen and he’d say, oh, Jeannie, I feel like I’m just “fumping” around.

Danny: Right.

Jean: Like, I’m not being productive. And we’re so geared to to be to do do do and.

Danny: Yes.

Jean: Yeah. It’s great to take these times and just Be a little bit.

Danny: Right

Alison: There’s a certain amount of guilt with being unproductive for me.

Danny: A guilt. Yeah.

Alison: You know, I feel like you should do something, organize something, clean something. If you’re not auditioning…do something.. Do you know, it’s a guilty feeling?

Danny: You know what’s a good a good thing to do during those times is to do something. Well, you’re an actress, so do something creative. Doesn’t have to be acting right. But, um, you know, I’ve painted a lot, but more in the past since I started writing. So, uh, during Covid, I started painting again, you know, and so it just being in that creative realm, whatever it might be, writing, painting, performing, um, and also just being in nature more, you know, nature is so healing to me, you know. So, um.

Alison: My favorite thing that you talked about, about painting is when you said you kept turning the canvas, keep painting. And I was like, that’s fantastic, because it almost made me want to try to paint and do that.

Danny: You should.  yeah, you know it’s so interesting when you and that one painting you do it. You see things from a totally different perspective, right? It’s like looking at it from sideways or upside down and so on that one painting, I kept doing it, and then all of a sudden it was like, you know, I think it’s done. And that’s always a challenge when to know when to stop. Yeah. You know, uh, when I painted more, I would so often over paint, you know, and my wife would stay, stop. Don’t go back. It’s good like it is. I’ve improved, I’ve improved. But that’s still a tendency. But I’m much more aware of it now.

Alison: And I wanted to talk with you about boundaries.

Danny: Yes.

Alison: Because I think people, women that we talk to, have a hard time setting up boundaries that feel comfortable to them. Could you just talk about your view of boundaries?

Danny: Yes, yes. The way I look at boundaries, first of all, I guess we all need to set certain boundaries, right? Okay. And I look at that as sort of like, uh, when you have body surfers or surfers that are….and it’s a busy day out in the water. They’re going to set some boundaries so they’re not going to collide with each other or their waves are not going to come together. And I think that’s the same with with people, you know. And it’s it’s harder I think for and maybe it’s women are more so is maybe women are more giving in in general, I’m just generalization, you know, uh, especially and for me, to set boundaries, there’s a couple of ways of doing it, and one way I just don’t like and I’ve had this happen – is I’m going to set a boundary. People express it, I’m going to set a boundary with you or with that. And I don’t think that’s the way to do it. It’s a little harsh and it can be a little divisive, but the way I look at it is – if I express my needs or desires or wishes in a thoughtful, clear manner, I am letting people know in a way that this is my boundary, right? So if whatever they may be asking me to do possibly or whatever they may be doing, if I share my needs or express my needs, I think it’s a kinder, gentler way of setting the boundaries. And I think a lot of us, and myself included, sometimes we’re afraid to express those needs. Or maybe we, like you say, maybe you feel guilty saying something like that, you know? But I really think it’s more that when we do that for ourselves, we’re also letting others know, because a lot of times people don’t know that there may be intrusive or invading our currents or our ways, uh, so we let them know. But, you know, through a communication, um, if they keep doing it, which some people will, they’re overly persistent. Then we have some choices. You know, we can remove ourselves literally or physically, you know, uh, or express our dislike or as I say in the book, it in the challenging difficulties, difficult cases, we can choose to swim in other waters. Right? Again, using the wave, we can go surfing somewhere else.

Alison: Right.  We talked to so many women and people that, um, are torn between the caretaking and being totally available and boundaries, and they’re they that those two things. Do you agree that have become very mixed?

Danny: Yes.

Alison: I thought that your book was really great in sort of you, approach one thing and you’re very clear about options to help you through it. Yeah. You know, because I think we’re living in a very, um, it’s a challenging time.

Danny: Yes, yes. Especially now. Yeah. Especially now.

Jean: Talk about riding the waves. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I think women that have been mothers, now when you come into the empty nest now, you’re just finding out what your needs are.. Like you really, you just kind of are just taking care, taking care, and then all of a sudden, you get into an age where you can focus more on yourself.

Danny: Yes.

Jean: And you’re like, oh, you know what? I don’t think I enjoy that and I’m going to, you know, it’s like a whole new way of being expressing your boundaries. But something I love Danny, which made me feel good about the whole boundary thing is you said it’s a win win for both people.

Danny: I think so. I think I think it can be. I think it can lead to a deeper relationship or connection with the person. I really do. And a more authentic truth basis where each feels okay to express their views on things. You know, and it’s sort of interesting as you were sharing. There’s a little bit especially, uh, for women and being mothers, is that… Well fathers too, is the idea of enabling, you know, when we enable our, our children by, in a way, giving too much or doing too much for them, or we can be actually by doing that, taking away, you know, with their own life journey, experiences, um, development, independence and things like that. So in a way, when we’re doing that, we’re we’re invading their currents. It’s just sort of sort of the opposite. Right. But we do it. Why do we do it? I think mostly because of fear. You know, a lot of it’s because of fear. We’re fearful, uh, for them. And, uh, will it be okay? How will they be? Etcetera, cetera, et cetera. And so a lot of it is, is processing our own fears. Right?

Alison: Right, Very much. Danny, when you write these type of books, does it put pressure on you to be really good?

Danny: Pressure?

Alison: Yeah.

Jean: Great question.

Danny: No, um, I, I mean, I would obviously like it to be good, but I don’t think of it in that terms…

Alison: I mean for like you to be good. Like like you write this book that is so great, and your book about acceptance, does it put pressure on you?

Danny: Oh I see. To live it.

Alison: Yeah. To to always be living it. And what happens when you don’t?

Danny: Good question. Um. It doesn’t put pressure on me. Um, because I’m not holding myself out as an expert, and I don’t try to, but what it does, uh, is I can look to my own writings and try to live by that. Okay. So they’re they’re tools. Like, if I’m going through a difficult or challenging time, I might, might say, okay, well, what would I say in my book about that? Right. So I they become my own self-help guides. And I actually start by writing them in that with that feeling or that sense, so that I am exploring, uh, as I’m writing and trying to live as I’m writing and seeing how it works and what maybe doesn’t work. So they’re, um, they’re just an ongoing continuing means for me to live, I guess, a more peaceful, helpful and joyful life.

Alison: Yeah.

Danny: And seems to be working. Yeah. Uh, I feel I feel very blessed. I feel very, very blessed. And, uh. Yeah. So I’m glad that, i’m glad that the books, um, thus far have been, you know, nicely received and resonates… And I’m so happy that that’s resonated with the two of you as well, of course.

Jean: It really has. Can you share with us , well we know because we read the book, but can you share with our listeners your morning practice?

Danny: Sure. My my morning process, um, is upon out of bed. I get on my on my knees and say the serenity prayer. Um. Before breakfast or go in the next room and before eating, I go outside and I have this beautiful Olive tree, and I will put my arms up and say the serenity, Serenity Prayer again. And I will then offer and ask for guidance. Whatever I may be dealing with, whether you want to say God or Higher Power or nature…. Uh, I ask to be receptive to the guidance that may come my way. I may not know what it is, but I want to be available and accessible. So I start my day from a very peaceful place every day. And, you know, things can happen during the day, obviously, when I, when I when that happens, when I remember to unfortunately, I work at home, I just go up my olive trees right out there. I can just go out there again, uh,or go or take a walk or whatever it is. And when I’m saying, the Serenity prayer, what I’ve learned is to think about it more specifically. Like whatever things I may be dealing with, God grant me the serenity to accept what I can and  what I can’t accept, uh, what’s happening right now. Right. And the courage to change the things I can. So that in a way, what that sort of means is to acknowledge the areas where I’m powerless over, that I can’t meaningfully change, like a lot of what’s going on now.

Alison: Yes.

Danny: But courage to change the things I can, is like telling me what power do I have within that context to make things better for myself, hopefully for others, and think about those more specific things, you know, and the wisdom to know the difference is sort of like sometimes I don’t know the difference. Sometimes I don’t know whether I can have any influence. So maybe I’ll try it a little bit. But if I, if I sense a resistance, then I know that I’m overreaching. Then I have to go more into acceptance and to acknowledge I’m powerless over this. So that’s just my daily prayer, my most significant prayer that’s really helped me a lot.

Alison: That’s so wonderful. And I wanted to, um, talk about the chapter The Great Divide.

Danny: Okay.

Alison: Because we are in a time right now that feels that discourse has stopped between people with differing ideas or beliefs.

Danny: Yes.

Alison: And, um, I wanted to, uh, enlighten our listeners to like what you’re feeling about that. And what you’re thinking is, I thought that chapter was fantastic.

Danny: Thank you, thank you. It’s sort of interesting. I wrote that chapter, believe it or not, the genesis of it five years ago.

Alison: Really?

Danny: Yeah, just a little bit before Covid, because I sensed it. Even then, the divide, the divisiveness, you know, and, uh, I didn’t know where to publish it or what to do with it. But then I started writing the book. I started thinking, okay, if the LA times is not going to publish it, I’m going to publish it in my book. And that’s what and that’s what was meant to be that way. Um, but anyways, getting to the subject is. There’s there’s several things I use the word acceptance conversations in a very broad thing that the idea is if we can have what I call acceptance conversations with “the other side”, you know, um, and what what do those entail, uh, so that we can have some kind of connection or some kind of understanding? You know, if you look at, you know, you hear the two different worlds or alternate universes and I’m, I have two circles, if those circles could just merge a little bit. So there’s a little overlap. It starts with trying to maybe get to there. So how does that happen?..   It could be also with uh family members that are fallen, fallen out or friends or whatever, right? It doesn’t have to be the whole nation or universe.

Danny: Um, but one of the, one of the keys, I think in these conversations is we need to, uh, accept others as they are and or their views as they are. That doesn’t mean I agree with them or condone them, right, I just need okay, that’s what they are. And that they are not necessarily trying to harm me or hurt me. That they are more than likely serving their own best interests, as we often do. When I can sort of look at it a little bit from that perspective, it can be less heated, less argumentative. So these conversations are not intended to convince or to win your point. Once you start doing that, it’s not going to go very far. It’s to try to find some common grounds about raising our children, taking care of our elder parents, um, um, what we enjoy in entertainment, food, sports so that we can begin to see what I call the humanness in the other. We need to try to see the humanness in the other. And then there are other parts as I write about it. Another one is, we need to be civil, you know, and not loud and argumentative.

Danny: But another part is try to, uh, get a conception of what fears might be behind the views. Uh, it’s been established and there’s books written on it, uh, that people are not going to change based on facts because, there’s so many different channels and universes of facts right now. So discussing the facts or they’re misreading the facts or misinterpreting is not going to carry us very far. It’s more on the emotional, Intuitive level. So and maybe the fear level, if we can sort of understand what fears lie behind their strong judgments, maybe we can talk and share about those. So, you know, those are some of the things and they’re they’re not always going to be productive. Some people may not want to have those conversations. Um, but there are what they call bridging organizations. And there’s a lot of them. And I’ve gotten involved a little bit with them. And that’s what what their aim is, is trying to find ways to bridge the divide by having these constructive conversations, you know, and it’s beginning. It’s sort of like what I say in the book, uh, Lao Tzu,  A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. It’s either that or do nothing. Right?

Alison: Yeah, right.

Jean: And I think that feeling uncomfortable…. becoming Comfortable those uncomfortable conversations. Actually, they’re good in a way, good for our soul growth. Because  no one likes to have these conversations that make you feel, oh, am I being judged, am I right? And to really look at look at our beliefs… You know, and have humility like you, you talk about, um, and yeah,  you have so much wisdom in any one of these chapters.

Alison: I think that’s a perfect chapter to read before Thanksgiving dinner….You know, when you’re sitting down with your family, I’m going to, you know, and people, all different types…. I thought that chapter was great.

Jean: Yeah.

Danny: Well, thank you. I really appreciate that. Uh, it’s just so important. And, um, but thank you, I appreciate that. It’s, uh, there’s got to be some changes, you know? And, uh, hopefully the more that we can, uh, as I say, see the common ground, see the humanity in the other, it certainly will help, because when we don’t, you’re not going to have a conversation. You know, it’s not going to happen.

Alison: No exactly. Right… Exactly.  And that’s where I think, unfortunately, we are at a lot of times, you know, where when you’re talking to somebody that maybe has a different idea or different beliefs, it goes from 0 to 60..it feels and I thought some of your tips were so great. And I was thinking about conversations I’ve had with relatives where I could have calmed down.

Danny: Yes. Right, right. Yeah.

Jean: And that was really a great, uh. I tried to make it more about me when I was reading your book. I didn’t want it to be like, see what you do… See, that’s what they do. And I really loved it because your book really let me focus on what I’m doing.

Danny: Wonderful.

Alison: And me which was great. And so it was a real gift.

Danny: Well thank you. I appreciate it.

Jean: I was focusing on you, Alison when was reading the book…hahah

Alison: She was picking on me.  hahah

Jean: That’s right.  hah

Jean: It’s so true… Those questions are so great at the end. And, um,  it’s just a beautiful, well written, wise, humble meaning.

Danny: Oh, wonderful. You know, it’s sort of interesting, I had a a friend read a draft copy of the book, and when I met with him he says, well, that’s a wonderful, intimate memoir. And I said, what? …you know, I didn’t think of it as such. But he, you know, everybody can interpret it. But he, and what you say, like the vulnerable, and the intimate and, um, uncomfortable with intimacy. The more I can be intimate, I think it’s better. I feel, you know.

Alison: It’ll be great, like, for your great grandchildren to have that.

Danny: Thank you.

Alison: It’ll be fun for them to get to know you through these words. And  I hope you find another box from 40 years ago with more writing in it….I would love that.

Danny: Thank you.

Alison: Danny, as we just wrap up, can you tell me what…  our podcast is called InsideWink…

Danny: Right.

Alison: What do you think insidewink means thank you?

Danny: I thought about that. And for me, um, I think it’s telling myself not to be so serious. Like, lighten up, because I tend to be really serious. Too serious. I’m smiling a lot because I just enjoy our conversation, but my tendency is, is to be a little too serious so that, the insight wink says, come on, Danny, lighten up. So I mean,that’s sort of like winking to myself.

Danny: And it’s and it’s so true…there was something I read, that said, don’t take all this too seriously.

Danny: Yeah.

Jean: Don’t take everything so seriously where you lose your joy.

Alison: Yes.

Jean: because then you’ve really disconnected from… So i love that you say that.

Alison: But it’s so funny, Danny. Whenever I’ve seen you, you always strike me as such a like a happy sprite. Thank you. I never see you as serious. Like you’re just always seeing…

Danny: I think it’s because you are as well. I think maybe.

Alison: Maybe we’re just goofy together.

Danny: Yeah. Goofy? Yeah.

Alison: But, um, I think that’s… I think that’s great. Jean will ask my favorite question ever.

Danny: Okay.

Speaker1: Okay. Do you prefer cake? Pie or ice cream?

Danny: Ice cream. I’m an ice cream guy.

Jean: What flavor?

Danny: Um. I like different ones. I like pistachio, coffee.

Jean: We love pistachio.

Alison: You’re fancy. Most people like chocolate, you know. So.

Danny: No, I’m not a, I like chocolate, but not for some reason for ice cream… Not as much. I don’t know why.

Alison: Yeah. Yeah. Danny, it’s such a joy to talk to you and just to have this time with you.

Danny: I thank you. Same. Same here. Same here. You two are doing so great.

Jean: Thank you. Your book is wonderful. It’s it’s very meaningful. And and, um, thank you for taking the time to write it and share your heart.

Alison: And I just want to put a little pitchfork to Seguda’s show…  that show is amazing. Is it called?

Danny:  Tragic magic.

Alison: It’s it’s absolutely beautiful. So if you’re ever seeing that coming around again, please go see it because you and your wife are a powerhouse of….

Danny: Thank you. It’s a wonderful show. It really is. Yeah.

Alison: Yeah. Okay. Well, give her our love. And we send you our love.

Danny: Okay. Thank you. Be well. Stay well.

Jean: You too.

Alison: Bye bye.

Jean: Bye bye.

Jean: He is so great. What a lovely man. Yes, because he’s done… Look at you.

Alison: I’m just thinking about our interview. He’s so… I just felt very. It felt very cozy to me, and.

Jean: Yeah, well, we both have met him before, so that was nice. But there’s something really light and bright about Danny, and I think it’s because he’s done the inner work at looking at parts of himself that, you know, don’t really bring a lot of joy and love to others or himself.

Alison: Right. And the book seems surprisingly simple and light. And then as you keep reading it, you realize, oh, I’m really getting something. Like I read a couple of the segments to Brady and I thought, listen to this. And he’s like, oh, mom, that’s great. Like it’s it seems like, um, like light in a way, in the very beginning. And then all of a sudden you’re in it and you’re like, wow, this is very powerful stuff. I really I can relate to so much of this. Yeah.

Jean: I think for me, one of one of the great things is that wherever you are in your thinking process, this book will meet you there.

Alison: Yes. That’s great.

Jean: You know, whether you’re like a longtime student of Self-inquiry and self, you know, awareness or you’re just starting to go, why is my life so, so hard?

Alison: Yeah.

Jean: So wherever you are, it’s a beautiful book.

Alison: You’re you’re batting a million today with your with your things.

Jean: look at you with your great questions.

Alison: I got a good question because I thought, God the pressure I’m not going to, I’m not even going to be nice anymore. Too much pressure, right. Um, well thank you. We hope we hope you go out. And buy, “The way of the wave”, because it’s just it’s really fun. It’s really great.

Jean: It’s a beautiful book. Thank you. Danny. Thank you. And thank you, listeners.

Alison: And thank you, Jean.

Jean: And thank you Allison.

Alison: Okay, bye.

Alison : Okay. Here we are.

Jean : Here we are. Back in my closet.

Alison : That’s right. I love it here. I’m going to live here. And you’re not even going to know, okay?

Jean : And you’re doing your home right now.

Alison : Yes. We’re redoing our home. A little bits and pieces of our house that needed to be done because our sink cracked in a hole. And who wants to live with that? Not me.

Jean : It’s going to be beautiful.

Alison : It’s going to be so lovely. And I realize, my child Em, was saying, mom, you’re veering towards cool colors and the house has warm colors. And I thought, I think Emma is correct. So that was a very interesting talk with that fantastic person. Um, but it’s been wonderful. And every day is a little like Christmas.

Jean : That’s great.

Alison : You’re like, oh look, a faucet came, you know? But it’s fun and it’s nice to it’s nice to even just like, you know, some of the stuff is just paint being done, which is fantastic.

Jean : And it’s a great time to, uh, spruce up your home. It’s springtime. There’s going to be a feeling of newness and beautiful colors, so I know it’s going to be gorgeous.

Alison : I can’t wait for you to see it all. So today…

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : I’m excited.

Jean : I am too. You know, we’ve never interviewed a shaman.

Alison : No.

Jean : Yes.

Alison : And I’m not. I personally am not fully aware, of until now when I was reading on it, what a shaman was? And, um, yeah, I think it’s going to be very interesting. Her name is Julie Kramer, and she is just she’s a shamanic healer.

Jean : She also teaches people how to become shamanic healers.

Alison : Right.

Jean : And, um, I thought she, like her wife, speaks, speaks so beautifully. Listening to her is really, um, beautiful. She’s got a gorgeous command of the English language, and she pronounces everything so beautifully. Well, actually, my husband Alex would have been very impressed with with how Julie speaks. But anyway….

Alison : I think we speak very much like that.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : But aside from how wonderfully she sounds vocally, she’s very I think it’s going to be very, very interesting to speak to someone that that does this as, um, a calling.

Jean : Yeah. And here again, is that being a bridge between the physical world and the spirit world. So I’m so looking forward to this.

Alison : And so here’s Julie.

Julie: Then suddenly there you are. And it’s so delightful.

Alison : It’s so nice to meet you. I’m Allison.

Jean : And I’m Jean.

Julie: Lovely to meet you both. Thank you for inviting me to have this conversation with you today.

Alison : You are so interesting.

Julie: Oh.

Jean : I’ve read and listened about you for the past few days, and, um, I was really looking forward to meeting you, Julie. And, you know, I, I, I don’t know that much about shamanism. And, um, when I think of the word, I think of, um, like South American people from indigenous countries and healing like in that… And now I look at you and, and, um, and I think, wow, that’s so great that you embarked on this path and are teaching people how to become a shaman.

Julie: Thank you. And I think that would be a wonderful topic to explore. Not by any means to direct you, because of course, I understand that it needs to feel organic and alive for you, but simply to say that it’s a topic I’m more than happy to speak on, because I think there there is a common misapprehension, and people often appreciate hearing my perspective on that.

Alison : We would love.

Julie: Yeah.

Alison : Yeah, but what is what is a shaman and what is what is um, shamanic practices. And then specifically you’re, you’re a you’re a healer.

Julie: Yes. Oh. Are we actually starting our conversation?

Alison : Welcome to us.

Julie: Oh, I apologize. Normally there’s, you know, the lighting check and the sound check.

Alison : And we’re..

Jean : we’re Right out the gate and sort of like it fresh and very conversational, almost like we’re, well, we are girl, women friends having a fun conversation. That brings it down to…

Alison : I think you’re used to Tami– being like, you know, because it’s so she’s so wonderful. But for us, it’s just sort of like, hey, hi… You know, let’s do it…so…

Julie:  wonderful.

Julie: Well, then why don’t I begin by answering the questions that you’ve posed. And so, Jean, first to acknowledge what you were saying a moment ago, yes… I think people do often associate shamans, shamanic practices, shamanic rituals, and so forth with indigenous peoples and communities, I think worldwide. And so oftentimes that’s a narrower perspective because in actual fact there are many more people practicing shamanism, including those lovely people. And what I would say about that, is that, thankfully, there are still lineages of shamans within indigenous contexts, within specific cultural contexts that remain intact. And how beautiful that that remains the case. May that continue to be the case. And interestingly, of course, many people in recent decades have studied shamans and shamanism within many of those different cultural contexts. And there are certain commonalities that have been found to be true. And therein lies I think the reason that you’re wondering about this, and perhaps the explanation for a person like me. So one of the commonalities that shamans worldwide share is being called by the spirit world. And interestingly, although there are still and may there continue to be indigenous shamans or shamans practicing within a specific cultural context, who perhaps also had living teachers, a grandmother or grandfather or aunt or uncle or mother or father or someone outside of their family, but within their community.

Speaker4: Interestingly, not all shamans currently or historically have had living teachers. And so what shamans actually all have in common universally, whether or not they ever had or will ever have a living teacher is being called by spirit, and that call comes from the spirits directly through a variety of means. And so this is how we often hear about people talking about shamanic initiations or even dark nights of the soul. So in other words, the call from spirit can come through messages, it can come through joyful synchronicities, and it can come through illnesses or diseases that can come through near-death experiences. It can come through trauma. And so I represent those folks out there who didn’t have a mother or father or grandmother or grandfather or community member who recognized my affinity for this spirit world as a young person, necessarily…. But I had, by way of a series of synchronicities, the opportunity to learn how to journey at a relatively young age in my 20s, and I met my helping spirit straight away, and that set me off on this course. And subsequently, I did have the great, good fortune of working with two living teachers, Sandra Ingerman and Betsy Bergstrom. So I’ve had a combination, but not since childhood. That all started to happen for me in my early adulthood.

Alison : That’s that’s beautiful. So for you, when you say a calling. Mhm. Um, can you, can you just tell me what that feels like? It sounds very exciting.

Julie: Well, I will say in my case it was quite subtle. It was at first such a personal sense of homecoming because when I first learned how to journey, which is the means by which I contact the helping spirit. So I talk about entering into natural trance states. So using drumming and rattling, I have my rattle right here. And what science has shown us is that when we expose ourselves to continuous percussion, so rattling or drumming as two examples, our brainwave activity changes and we enter into a natural trance state. So without needing to ingest anything, such as a mind altering substance, I can just pick up my rattle right now and enter into a trance state. So support my consciousness as it shifts from a beta state to an alpha state to a theta state, which is more of an expansive state. When we become more, I would say, perceptually aware. And by that what I mean is we’re perceiving the helping spirits from that state or in that state, but they’re with us all the time. And so it isn’t as though they suddenly appear when we’re in that state, but rather that we become aware of their presence, which we may not always be paying attention to in our day to day lives. And so when I first became introduced to journeying and met my helping spirits, there was such a personal sense of homecoming.

Julie: But it was not at all in my awareness or consciousness that this could become my career. The fact that I’ve made a career out of this has been a delightful surprise to me. That has been very organic over time. But if you had told the young Julie, the young 26 year old Julie, that now at the age of almost 52, I would be talking to the two of you about this work and teaching practitioners and teaching teachers, i would not have believed a word you said. So I think for me it’s been less dramatic. Oh. Pardon me, Jean, I think for me it’s been less dramatic, although certainly there are stories of people through illness, as I said, through trauma, through near-death experiences and so forth. I would say that part of my biographical experience, especially as a child, I think helped me hone my sensitivity and hone my compassion, and those things have helped me immensely in my role. But I wasn’t someone who had a lot of experiences with the spirit world. A lot of dramatic experiences with the spirit world. As a child, it was a little bit more quiet for me.

Alison : Lovely.

Jean : Yeah. That’s so beautiful. And Julie, do you notice, um, you call them your helping guides? I love that term. Can you tap into them? Like, if you’re at a store and you’re… And you’re thinking, oh, I need to get this person or or do you have to do a more ritualistic, um, quest for that or, you know, a process? Yeah.

Julie: Yes. Well, I.

Jean : And just sorry, Julie, and because it’s right on the tip. Have they changed over time? Are your helping guides the same ones that you tuned into early on? Early versus now?

Julie: If I may, I’ll start by answering that question. Some of them are the same as all that time ago. It was in 2000 that I first learned how to journey, and I immediately contacted my helping spirits. So there was an immediate sense of connection, belonging, homecoming, familiarity. I would say, of course, I, I feel in my cosmology I was meeting helping spirits with whom I’ve had affiliations over lifetimes. And so that sense of familiarity was predicated upon our shared history, and many of them have endured. So those I met initially, many of them still remain with me. I’ve met more subsequently, and they are long standing relationships that keep deepening, that keep unfolding, much like a marriage, much like a deep, beloved friendship. You continue to learn things about each other, and you continue to learn things about yourself in relationship with the other. And so I continued to discover things about my helping spirits. It feels as though there’s still an enormous amount to discover, even after, in some cases, 25 years of being in relationship with some of them. In a conscious way, in this lifetime as an adult.

Alison : It might be semantics, but our guardian angels guiding spirits.

Julie: Well, I was going to say I used these terms interchangeably helping spirits, helping guides, guardian angels, although they’re very well, maybe people who consider the term guardian angel to be specific to the presence of angelic beings. I would consider angelic beings to be helping spirits, but they’re their own category. They’re angelic beings. Um, but to me, they could all be included under the broad umbrella of Spirit guides or Spirit Helpers or compassionate helping spirits. I use all of those terms interchangeably, including guardian angels.

Alison : And is it when you say that you met your your your friendly guiding spirit early on? Is it like, um, is it an awareness? Is it do you hear a voice or is it a visual?

Julie: Um.

Alison : What is that? You know.

Julie: Yes. Of course. Yes. So when we rattle or drum and catalyze, if you will, or generate if you will, a trance state. As I mentioned before, our perception widens. So it’s an expanded state of consciousness. And what we become aware of are these subtleties. So I would say that we exist within a multidimensional reality, that reality is far more nuanced and mysterious than just the physical world. What we can see and touch and feel with our physical senses and those subtler pathways of perception open when we’re in a trance state, and then we are able, we begin, pardon me, to be able to perceive what lies in the invisible realms. So with another dimensions or spectrums of reality. And so in a way, this answers both of your questions. I can see you both on the screen and and feel you feel our heart connection and feel your warmth and openness to me and to this topic, and at the same time, with what I would describe as my subtle perceptions, i can perceive my helping spirit. So I have one who’s always to my left and one who’s always to my right, and one who’s always behind me. And I can feel them and see them with what I would describe as my inner sight, which we could also say is clairvoyance.

Julie: So being able to see clearly,  clear seeing or clairvoyance in the dark, if you will, in the invisible realm. So for me, these realities are interpenetrating. So I’m here in my physical body, and my helping spirits are right next to me in their non-physical bodies, but they’re in their forms. And so I can see them. I can feel or sense them. I can hear them when I talk to them and they talk to me. So we dialogue. So it feels probably the simplest way of explaining it would be it feels telepathic, the actual communication, and that would be clairaudience. And so that’s when you’re hearing them speak to you. So it’s the subtle version of the auditory sense, just as clairvoyance is the subtle version of site. So each of the physical senses has that subtle correlate so we can journey into or send our awareness into these other dimensions of reality that have their own landscapes and their own resources, and that are rich and fascinating and endless. And that’s where the helping spirits reside, if you will. And then we can experience them, and they show themselves to us in their forms. And so angelic beings will have wings, and there are animal spirits who are helping spirits. So I have a bear who’s always right behind me, a very tall brown bear who’s always behind me as a protector for me.

Julie: And the two helping spirits. To my left and right are my former brother and father from another lifetime. And so they take those forms, although I would argue that those are costumes they put on for our benefit, just as these forms are the costumes that we’re wearing now. I think our spirits are beyond form and transcend and include all of the forms that we take in our different lifetimes. But in answer to your question, Jean, when I’m out in the world at the grocery store or whatever, I can simply turn my attention towards them and thus perceive them because they’re always there. And so it really depends on where my attention lies. But part of my practice and part of what I teach is what would it be like if we were in a continuous relationship with our helping spirits, if we were in continuous contact with them? So if I’m answering an email instead of the answer coming from just my mind, if you will, or even my heart to check in with the helping spirits and ask, how shall I respond to this? What’s needed here? What’s the message? What’s the response? What should my posture be? How can I support this person? So I involve my helping spirits in even small decisions throughout the day.  I mean, maybe not to the extent that I’m saying. What kind of yogurt should I buy at the grocery store? But Tami and I did once ask my helping spirits about a movie recommendation, because we were trying to decide what movie to go to. And my one of my helping spirits said, what do I look like? Siskel and Ebert. So that was the last time I asked for a movie recommendation. But I do consult with them, and that’s part of what I teach, is what would it be like if we were in constant communication, constant connection? And when we are, we look out. I know you can’t see what I’m seeing, but I’m looking into my garden and I can see the ocean from here. I’m in Vancouver, British Columbia, and everything takes on this quality of aliveness because you’re beginning to experience the spirit that animates all of reality. And so everything starts to take on this quality of radiance and aliveness and intelligence and beauty. And then you walk through the world so differently. Other people begin to take on that luminosity as well. And so everything becomes so wakeful, and that’s a very different way of walking through the world.

Jean : Very much so. That’s so beautiful, julie.

Jean : Can can anyone learn to be a shaman?

Julie: I believe anyone can learn to be in relationship with their helping spirits. I believe literally anyone can. There is no special prerequisite or special gift you need to have. I think it’s wired into our DNA. Even if some of us come from ancestral lineages where there may no longer be intact lineages of shamans or healers or medicine people who work in partnership with the spirit world, all of our ancestors did. And so part of what’s been so beautiful for me has been to meet helping spirits who were my ancestors, who have taught me how they worked at the times when they lived. And of course, we can understand lots of different reasons why certain more esoteric practices might have needed to go underground or be hidden, or why certain lineages came to an end, and with them the wisdom and knowledge that was contained within that lineage. And so part of what I am very interested in is how do we access all of the wisdom from the different lineages that we belong to? Because all of us have either recent or distant ancestors who practiced divination and healing and partnership with the spirit world, which is what shamanism is. And so that’s something that I’m very passionate about. And the beginning point is let’s first learn how to contact our helping spirits. Let’s learn how easy it is. Let’s learn how available and accessible they are. Let’s take this out of the realm of romanticization or sensationalisation. This is available to everyone. That’s why I said a moment ago it’s in all of our DNA, because all of our ancestors had ways of entering into trance state, sometimes with  plant, spirit medicine, pardon me. And sometimes using the means that I’m describing for being in communion with the spirit world. And so to me, that’s alive inside of us.

Julie: And it’s less a question of teaching people as it is helping them remember. So I would say that’s the beginning. And then for me, the term shaman is a spiritual honorific. And I wouldn’t I wouldn’t self-proclaim as a shaman. That’s a term that I feel is bestowed upon one, perhaps by the members of one’s community in recognition of your gifts as a healer and how you’re working in partnership with the spirit world to bring about healing and well-being in the community that you serve. And so that’s classically how that term is held. I love saying I’m a shamanic practitioner or a shamanic healer. I would say equally, I’m a spiritual healer. To me, those terms are also interchangeable. But being called by a spirit to serve as a healer requires its own training. And that’s where people often experience a call of some kind that initiates them into the possibility that there is such a thing as spiritual illness and the remedy spiritual healing. And so I do train people to become shamanic practitioners, and that’s become the focus of my work. It’s been that way since 2012, that I train people to become shamanic practitioners who feel they’ve been called by spirit to offer healing to others. But and I love teaching beginners, and so I also devote a certain amount of my time to teaching basic introductory workshops that are three days long, some in person and some remote to teach anyone how to journey and how to begin to form a relationship with their own helping spirits. Because I just love helping people connect with their helping spirits and recognize their existence and begin to live in partnership with them and in relationship with them. It’s so immensely enriching for people. So I love to do that.

Alison : You have a phrase on your website, “Ennobling the Heart.” And when I when I first saw that, it took my breath away a little bit because I’ve never heard those words together. And I was interested to see, um, I would like to discuss that a little bit with you. What is that? What is that for you?

Julie: Yes. Well, the ennobling of the heart, that turn of phrase, came from my helping spirit to describe what happens in my long term trainings. What I’ve observed happens to my students as they form relationships with their helping spirits, and as they become more clear about who they are and what their gifts are and what the medicine is that they carry, and who the helping spirits are, who are devoted to their wellbeing and to their unfolding and their evolution. And I believe everyone has a purpose in life, and I feel that everyone can become ennobled by way of discovering their purpose and embracing it and sharing their beautiful gifts in the world, whatever those are. And for me, in training practitioners, there’s of course, the aspects of the training that are more practical, skills based. I want to teach certain processes and certain practices that these practitioners will eventually offer their own clients. But I also want to train practitioners who carry this work in the world with integrity and with dignity and with humility. I want to train practitioners to become ennobled. And to me, that speaks to the spiritual evolution that happens when you work with helping spirits who have a quality of consciousness that’s truthfully higher than ours, that we can meet and experience when we journey.

Julie: And that lifts us up, that raises our vibration. And it’s interesting because I’ve never been in one of my own trainings, of course, I only ever have the vantage point of being the facilitator or the teacher, and so I can’t know what it’s like to be on the receiving end of all of these practices and rituals that we do, all of which came from my own teachers, Sandra Ingerman and Betsy Bergstrom, or came from my own helping spirit. So I’m synthesizing what I learned from my teachers, plus sharing what what I would say has been spirit taught, what the helping spirits have taught me directly, but I’ve never been on the receiving end of it, i’m always observing what happens to my students as they go through these processes, and they just become more and more radiant and more and more clear and more and more purposeful and more and more devoted to their path of service. And it’s just so gorgeous to bear witness to. And so calling my work in this path the ennobling of the heart, as I say on my website, this is my love letter to my students.

Alison : Beautiful. Could I ask, though, also, um, when we transition, can we become a guiding spirit?

Julie: Yes, yes. So many of us have ancestors, such as someone you might have known earlier in your life, who has since passed away and who has crossed over who’s now a helping spirit or a guardian angel, if you will. Yes, absolutely. And sometimes it can be a more distant ancestor. So someone you didn’t know in your lifetime, maybe your great great great grandmother, but who still a helping spirit for you. So it can be either or you can have a pet who passed away earlier in your life. I do myself, Tami and I both do. Our beloved cocker spaniel who lived to be almost 17. She’s a helping spirit now for both of us, and so she’s one of our allies that we have in common and that we check in with very often.

Alison : I find that so comforting. Yeah, there’s something comforting about that, that, that there’s, um, that we’re all part of it. And that I could be your helping spirit next time around. Or my my, my kid maybe was my helping spirit a while ago like that’s very moving to me.

Julie: Yes. Well, and I think what you’re speaking to is so important and why I’m so passionate about teaching people how to journey, because we never walk in the world alone again.

Jean : Yeah, yeah.

Julie: And I think we often feel alone in our lives. And of course, post pandemic I think is more of life has become virtual, there’s at once a way in which that’s enabling us to have this conversation and how wonderful, and maybe it couldn’t occur otherwise. And so I’m so grateful and reliant upon technology and appreciative of it. And at the same time, of course, many people report not feeling as connected and feeling more isolated, and that there is more of a sense of dislocation. And the ways in which we’re connecting may not feel quite as meaningful. And so it’s a time when I feel that it’s especially crucial for us to be aware of all of the love and support around us. I mean, I just mentioned three of my helping spirits to my left and right and behind, but I have dozens of helping spirits and to walk in the world with all of that love and care and comfort and especially with loved ones that have passed away. But also, as I said, even with helping spirits that we didn’t share this lifetime with, but that we’ve shared other lifetimes with, there can still be a tremendous relationship and sense of connection. And that’s such an emphasis in my work that we don’t have to be alone. In fact, we’re never alone. Our helping spirits are with us, whether we’re aware of them or not. So imagine if we decided to become aware of them, how much richer our lives would be. They’re there anyway. It’s a resource that we’re that we’re underutilizing. I would say it’s like a bank account you didn’t know that you had. And then you suddenly discover, you know, you’re a millionaire, little did you know, but you are, and it’s so enriching.

Jean : And I think that’s so what we need now. And I think the absence of acknowledging the spirit side of our self is, is really what we’re being asked to bring forth. And, um, and I think trainings like what you’re offering, Julie, are so important so that we as we navigate this very chaotic time, that we know that we have angels and guides and helpers that can, can kind of nudge us and, um, but it takes a little bit of it takes time, you know, like you have to slow down your, your for me anyway, i have to like, slow down my life a little bit and make time for that relationship.

Alison : Mhm.

Julie: Mhm.

Jean : Are you doing any like what are you teaching now. Do you have classes.., are you um. Is that all up in British Columbia or…

Julie: No not not all. Some online. I’m in the midst of leading a series of introductory workshops. So those are three days in length. And there’s one coming up in May in British Columbia. There’s one in June in Colorado. Let’s see, there’s one in June in Ontario, Canada. And then in July I’m teaching one virtually. And I have people who join from all over the United States and Canada, from Europe. And some people, bless them, try to join from the Southern hemisphere, although it’s very tricky in terms of the time difference. Yeah. But I am starting a new training program in September. So these introductory workshops are. Stand alone workshops for total beginners. So no prerequisite. Anybody and everybody is welcome. And so they they are complete unto themselves. And they also serve as the prerequisite for my year long program, which starts in September. And that’s a blended learning program. So combining two in-person retreats with a virtual curriculum in between. And those two retreats do happen up here in British Columbia, although I have students from all over, but that model works well even for people who live further afield, because you come to British Columbia at the start of the program and then you come at the end, and it’s a year long program, and then everything in between is virtual, and we meet very regularly in between, and it’s a very, very structured program. So that’s my level one program for people who feel called to work with spirits in order to offer healing in their communities. So that’s the practitioner training program level one.

Alison : That’s great. Can we talk a little bit about the healing? You know, so many times I feel inundated by, you know, um, symptoms being taken care of, like sort of reactionary medicine or Western medicine and what, what what is your take on that and what do you do differently or the same?

Julie: Um, yes. So I would say that the type of healing work that I practice and teach is never intended to be a substitute for Western medicine or psychiatric medicine or any other healing modality, but rather to complement those other healing modalities. And interestingly, whenever we just look through one lens, we often miss things. And so if I were just looking at a symptom or a cluster of symptoms through the lens of Western medicine, i might miss things. I might miss, for example, psychological issues if I’m not also looking through a psychological lens. Similarly with spiritual healing, if you’re only looking through that lens, you very well may find things, no question, but you might also miss things. And so what I’m interested in is helping this work become restored as a credible healing modality that functions alongside all of the other healing modalities that we’re used to, including the ones that, you know, might have been a little bit less mainstream 30 years ago, like acupuncture or energy medicine, but have now become quite commonplace…. Like, it’s not that uncommon for someone to say, I’m dealing with a Covid diagnosis and I’m working with my medical doctor, but I’m also getting acupuncture and I’m also seeing my energy medicine healer.

Julie: You know, that’s quite common nowadays. So in my ideal world it would become just as normal for someone to say, and I’m working with a shamanic practitioner. And so what we do is explore the spiritual causes of illness and or the possibility that spiritual disharmonies or imbalances can exacerbate illnesses. And this is where sometimes, if we’re looking through the lens of Western medicine or we’re looking through the lens of psychology or psychiatry, again, we may find things, but are we getting to the root of it? And oftentimes people end up in my office or in the offices of my students because they’ve tried everything else. And lo and behold, but there’s something in the way of a spiritual imbalance or illness that was never detected simply because they weren’t looking through that lens, and now there’s a reason for some of or maybe all of what they’ve been experiencing. And so what that means is that we’re working directly with the helping spirits to actually diagnose the presence of spiritual illness. And so shall I give an example, because I realize that’s a little abstract and I want to make it more practical?

Alison : I’ve never heard that term spiritual spiritual illness.

Julie: Mhm. Yeah. So I, I use the terms spiritual illness or shamanic illness interchangeably. What they both point to is are there causes of illness that are spiritual in nature and that can result in or contribute to or exacerbate symptoms, physical symptoms, emotional or psychological symptoms? And yes, I understand that in and of itself can be quite a paradigm shift for people. But I think it also makes a lot of intuitive sense. Shall I give you an example?

Alison : Okay.

Julie: So let’s see what example shall I give? Well this is the example that’s coming up. So I’m going to follow that. So a common form of spiritual illness is possession illness. And that would be if someone, let’s say, there are very many different possible scenarios in which this can take place, but a common one, let’s say that a young father passes away while his children are still very young. And because of his profound love for his children, because of his concern for their well-being, because of his desire to protect them and care for them at the time of his death, he doesn’t cross over successfully. I would say he doesn’t go to the Light. He stays here and he does so out of love and devotion for his children and becomes attached to one of his children. Now, let’s say that he was dying from a disease process that unfolded gradually over time. Believe it or not, I know this can sound quite startling, but that person that he becomes attached to, not necessarily right away, but in the fullness of time, could actually begin to develop some of the same symptoms that their father had that were part of the illness that killed their father.

Julie: So if those symptoms began to present and that person, let’s say they’re now an adult, and they go to the doctor and try to figure this out, there actually is no physical cause, what’s happening is that their dear father who’s become attached to them, his presence is coming forward, His symptoms are presenting. His thoughts could be too,  his worries, could be to his anxieties about his children, could be too. So that young person who grows into adulthood with their father, they’re intending to be a loving presence could actually be an overshadowing presence whose anxiety could be felt by the child who’s now an adult as their own, whose worry could now be felt by that person as their own, and who could even develop physical symptoms that wouldn’t have a physical explanation. And so the diagnosis then would be, the practitioner would hear all of what the person is experiencing… Like, I can’t resolve my anxiety. I can’t resolve my worry. I’m just in this chronic state of worry and anxiety. I’m having pain in different places in my body that I can’t explain. And so then the practitioner would enter into a natural trance state, and they would contact their helping spirits and ask for diagnosis.

Julie: And the diagnosis would be, there’s this spirit who’s become attached to his child, who’s now an adult. But he never left this realm. He never left this world. So his spiritual evolution is being impeded by his being here instead of continuing to evolve. But also his now adult child is experiencing the burden of all that he was carrying when he died. And that’s not serving either of them. He’s not actually a helping spirit for his now adult child. He’s not a guardian angel for them, he’s a burden to them, even though that was never his intention. So the healing is to help decouple the father from the child and help the father go to the light finally, and then have the child experience in their adult selves for the first time since their father died. What is it like to be the sole occupant of their body and of their energy field? Because up until that time, from the time their father died, until the time this was detected, there had been two souls in one body. And for the the host, if you will, in this case, the adult child, you don’t even necessarily know…. Very often you have no idea. There’s a whole other set of proclivities, of opinions, of memories, of dreams, of desires, of experiences, of worries, of anxieties, and sometimes of symptoms that belong to the other person, and that was a part of their life ,and how their life ended is it has nothing to do with you and your biography and who you are and what you’re becoming. But those two things become completely enmeshed. So then there’s a decoupling process, and the father is then helped to go to the light, and then the adult child can look at who they are now. And will there be resolution? Will the worry resolve? Will the anxiety resolve? Or maybe they’re a little prone to worry and anxiety too, just like their father was. But now it’s gone from a nine out of ten to a two out of ten, or now it’s commensurate with their circumstances because, of course, being worried and having anxiety is normal and natural in response to certain stressors or triggers. Now, the level of worry or anxiety is commensurate with what’s actually happening instead of always being heightened. And so I know that was a complex explanation, but it’s very, very, very common because when people die, they’re often so afraid of death, or they’re afraid of punishment, they’re afraid of purgatory, they’re afraid of hell, they’re afraid of of being blamed or not being received or not being forgiven, or they’re attached. They’re staying here trying to protect us from harm. And so it can be so well meant, but not helpful for the person who’s dead or for the person who’s still living.

Alison : You know, what you say resonates with me with the idea of generational trauma. You know that, because that’s a term that comes up a lot. And I think we’ve even talked to some people about that. And so that’s so interesting that, um, to, to to see it with what you’re saying from your lens of uh, of, of of on the soul level.

Julie: Yes.

Alison : Um, are you Do you are a teacher or are you still a practitioner now?

Julie: I don’t I don’t provide individual healing sessions anymore because I’ve now trained 100 practitioners who have completed three full years of training. And so my role is to lift them up and to send people to them. And oftentimes, people who resonate with me resonate with my students because we resonate with each other and we’re in community together and they’ve learned from me and they’ve often studied with my teachers as well, who both still teach. And so it’s kind of all in the family, I would say, but I certainly welcome people reaching out to me for referrals. And then what I do is refer people to my students. But if I may, to go back to what you said, yes, this is one of the, in my opinion, very significant contributors to generational trauma that is not widely understood. For example, to use a different thread or to talk about a different thread generational addiction. And so let’s also imagine we’ll use the same storyline. Let’s imagine the father struggled with alcoholism and that that was not resolved for him at the time of his death. Well, if he becomes attached to his adult child, who may also genetically now have that predisposition, when his child has a drink, he gets a little bit of a hit from that.

Alison : Mhm.

Julie: And so he can exacerbate his child’s propensity to become addicted to alcohol because he could influence him to want to drink more. So these patterns of addiction, yes, patterns of trauma wounding etc., can be so greatly exacerbated by we call them suffering beings. Those spirits of people who have died, who become attached to the living and who just need our care and love and support to help them go to the light and the care of the helping spirits, to welcome them to the light, no matter who they are and what they’ve done.  I’ve facilitated, I can’t even tell you how many hundreds of compassionate depositions, which is the remedy for possession illness. Every time whoever the person is who’s died and become attached to a living person, whoever they are, whatever they’ve done or whatever they’ve not done, every time, without exception, they are welcomed with open arms by the helping spirits and by their own ancestors who have died. And so there’s no one who gets turned away, even though that’s often the reason that at the time of death, people are afraid to go to the light because they think they’re going to be turned away or punished.

Jean : Oh, that makes so much sense.

Alison : Yeah,

Jean : Especially if you were raised in a religion of, um, you know, fire and brimstone and the devil and all of that and guilt and, and so that deep seated guilt and fear…. It makes sense why they’re just like, no, I’m not going. And, yes, um, you know, you have to sort of coax that spirit lovingly to release. And the way you talk about it, Julie is so loving and compassionate. You know, it’s, um, you know, it’s really honoring everyone’s journey whether you have a body or not. You know, it’s it’s that movement towards the light, towards freedom. Um.

Alison : You’re so gentle.

Jean : Yeah.

Julie: Thank you.

Alison : You’re so gentle. I could just listen to you for ever.

Julie: Oh, that’s so kind. Thank you.

Jean : Your voice is very soothing.

Alison : Yeah.

Julie:  thank you.

Alison : Yeah. We have two wrap up questions.

Julie: Yes.

Alison : The first one is, what do you. Our podcast is called Inside Wink. And what do you think? Inside wink means.

Julie: Mhm.

Alison : You.

Julie: Yes. So for me it’s that luminosity that I was describing before which I feel is our natural state as humans. My teacher, Betsy Bergstrom, who taught me compassion deposition and taught me how to care for those beautiful spirits in need as though they are living clients, to treat them equally with just as much care. She also taught me this beautiful practice for working with our heart lights and helping our heart lights shine and twinkle. And to me, that’s that inner or inside wink is that sparkliness or twinkling ness that I think is actually our human natural state. But we’ve become a little defended, unfortunately.

Alison : Yeah. That’s beautiful. And and I think I definitely see that in you. Like, you have such an easy laugh and such a, you know, it’s it’s it’s great. It’s great.

Julie: Thank you.

Alison : Best question.

Jean : Okay. So our last question is do you prefer cake pie or ice cream.

Julie: Definitely ice cream. Chocolate, please. Preferably with hot fudge sauce and whipped cream, but no cherry on top.

Jean : On american Airlines- this is not a plug for American Airlines, but they do offer sometimes a sundae.

Alison : That’s so funny.

Jean :  and they ask, do you want vanilla, chocolate, sauce, cherries???  So, um.

Alison : Anyway, I love how definite you are.

Julie: Yes.

Alison : You’re very human. Definite.

Julie: So it’s my favorite dessert. Yes. So my. I’ve placed that order many times.

Alison : You know it. You know it by rote.

Julie: Exactly.

Julie: Thank you so, so much for joining us. You’ve shed light on something that I think is so interesting.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : And beautiful. And I feel very open. So thank you so much.

Jean : Yeah. You really have illuminated my mind around shamanism and, uh, and I’m very intrigued by this topic. So thank you. Yes. Thank you so much. Many blessings.

Julie: Well, and many blessings to you both. And thank you so much for your open heartedness and your generosity and inviting me to join you and have this lovely conversation with you. Thank you.

Alison : Have a beautiful day.

Julie: You too.

Jean : Bye, Julie.

Julie: Bye bye.

Alison : Okay. That was wonderful, wasn’t it?

Jean : She was wonderful. Yeah.

Alison : Wonderful. Wonderful explanations. And then guess what happened? We saw a quail outside.

Jean : I’m going to have to find you a quail.

Alison : I loved that, though. It was like. It was like a perfect guiding spirit. They were so cute hanging out.

Jean : You know what I thought of another question I wanted to ask her what, um, and had to do with animals because  i also think shamanism… Shamanism has to do with spirit animals. And I wanted to talk to her.

Alison : She did mention that because she mentioned she had that bear. Yeah, which I love that.

Jean : But that is a field that I know very little about. And yet I feel like being a shaman is like being an oracle or being a mystic, or maybe like a witch back in the you know, it’s just connecting to spirit world.

Alison : And I think, I think too it also resonates with like Lorna Byrne talking about talking to angels. Yes. That we’ve spoken to so many of these things. Every time we have an interview, I realize it’s all so interconnected and that it that brings me peace. Like nothing is like, um. Oh, what are you talking about? Oh, you know, it’s not like someone’s talking about football, you know? They’re all so interconnected. And when we meet these people, they are radiant. Mhm.

Jean : She was, she has a lot of light and joy.

Alison : Really amazing. And it made me feel very comforted and also very relaxed. Her voice.

Jean : Yeah. She had a beautiful voice. But again there It shows to you know, it’s we’re not alone. We have spirit guides and helpers, whatever the word is… You know, people, let’s not get caught up in angel or guide, ascended master, an ancestor.

Alison : Friend.

Jean : Friend. Yeah.

Alison : Husband. Partner. Yeah. Uh, friend. I mean, that’s the thing, I think. I think it is just about love and opening up. It’s an opening up as opposed to a closing in.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : Do you know? Which is so nice. Okay, I got to go look for the quail now again. Okay, okay. Have a good day.

Jean : Bye

Jean : Well, we’re back in my closet again.

Alison : That’s right. It’s so nice in here, though.

Jean : It really is not.

Alison : It is. It’s. It’s so nice.

Jean : All right.

Alison : How are you?

Jean : I’m good. How are you doing?

Alison : I’m very, very well. Matthew’s visiting.

Jean : He is. And I’m having a great time. And what’s so nice is I love waking up and seeing him in the kitchen in the morning, and he’s making his coffee, and he’s like… And he doesn’t say hi. He gives me a little whistle.

Alison : I love that.

Jean : It’s sweet.

Alison : Your kids are great.

Jean : yes, so as are yours.

Alison : Yes. We’re very lucky. Um, and they’re kind people.

Jean : They are kind. And what a great segue into the guest that we are talking with today.

Alison : Ah, the platform that we’re on, mind, body, spirit suggested that we talk to Leon Logothetis and he is called the kindness Guy because he’s written so many books on kindness, and he has a beautiful story about all this.

Jean : Yeah. And I think it’s very relatable. Um, just about that inner void, that despair that so many people feel. I know I have felt it many times in my life and how to emerge from it.

Alison : Yeah. I can’t wait to talk to him because he’s had incredible journeys, he’s done incredible things. He’s traveled across country on $5 a day and met people. He’s done the same in Europe. He got a yellow motorcycle and went all over.  You know, he’s just, um, he goes on these adventures.

Jean : And he meets such incredible people that share their wisdom. And you know what makes them feel, yay! inside or inspired… So this is going to be great. I’m really looking forward to it.

Alison : And here comes Leon.

Leon: Hey, guys.

Alison : Hi, there.

Jean : Hi, Leon.

Leon: How are you?

Alison : Very good. How are you?

Leon: I’m good. Where are you?

Alison : We’re in LA. Where are you?

Leon: I’m in LA. Where in LA are you?

Jean : We are in Studio City.

Leon: I am just off Laurel and Mulholland.

Jean : Oh, wow.

Alison : All right, we’re driving up.

Leon: You’re more than welcome to come.

Jean : I live off of Fryman Canyon.

Leon: Oh, wow. Okay, great. I’ve probably passed your house many times.

Jean : Do you ever do the hike?

Leon: All the time.

Jean : Oh, wow. All right, well, let’s look for each other next time.

Leon: Or we can arrange to do a hike.

Jean : Or we can do even better. Even better.

Alison : You are actually passing Jean’s house when you do the hike.

Leon: Okay. Wow. Okay.

Alison : There you go. It’s great. We’re so happy to, um, to talk to you because I’ve heard about you for so many years, being the kindness guy…. And yet your newest movie, The Kindness Within, was so different. The beginning really was so… It was,  like we both just started crying right off the bat. That was so… Could you talk to our audience a little bit about, um how you started your whole process being, “the kindness guy and how it lead to being a movie?

Leon: Sure, absolutely. Uh, so is this live? Oh, you’re recording it?

Jean : Oh, we’re recording it.

Leon: Okay. All right. Okay. Um, so, yeah, I — The kindness within –  a journey to freedom.” Um, basically, as you know, I used to be a broker, And, uh, that was many years ago. And I quit my job and I started to travel the world relying on kindness. And that’s when I did the Kindness Diaries. Um, and I did all the things that kind of made me into the kindness guy, right? Externally. Made me into the kindness guy. Um, and you’d mentioned that The Kindness within was very different to the Kindness Diaries. Right. So The Kindness Diaries was about me traveling around the world on a vintage yellow motorbike. Um, relying entirely on the kindness of strangers. And it was kind of the happy go lucky side of me. Right. Which is is still, you know, it’s who I am. Partially. Um, but the Kindness within was kind of a deeper version of me, and it’s it’s another version of me, but it’s still me. So I ended up, um, writing a I was in my house in in Hollywood, not far from where you guys live. Actually, let probably less like a mile than less than a mile and a half from where you live. Yeah. That’s funny. Um, that you probably pass every day when you go over Laurel Canyon, to be honest. Um, and I found myself writing a suicide note, and I was in a really terrible place, obviously. Um, but I found the courage to pick up the phone and call my therapist at a random hour. It was, like, 11:00 at night. Because sometimes dark nights of the soul don’t happen on schedule. Right, right. Um.

Jean : or in just one night.

Leon: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So I called him, and he helped me immeasurably. Uh, obviously, I put down the note, um, and the next morning, I find myself at the Mystic Bookshop in Venice Beach when it used to be on Abbot Kinney. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I absolutely loved that bookshop specifically before it moved to to Main Street, but it was just a magical place. So I went there, I guess, to get some comfort. Right? And I randomly saw Yogananda’s book, autobiography of a Yogi. Now, I’d seen that book many, many times before, but I’d never picked it up. And for some reason I did. And I randomly opened it to a page and I randomly opened what looked at a specific paragraph. And in it he says to a soon to be guru, if you reveal God to me, I will follow you anywhere. And I had an epiphany. I was like, okay, I’m going to India to find God. And I’m not necessarily talking about the God that lives up in the sky with the big white beard. Talking about the universal energy of love, source, spirit, whatever word you want to use. Right. Um, and that’s where the journey of the film begins.

Jean : Yeah. Mhm. Yeah.

Alison : It’s, uh, it was so, um, I felt exactly like you. And so it was so close to me. And yet your journey… I’ve never done anything like that. So it was so interesting to feel connected to you and yet so different on that journey, how how did you change, like during that time? Because it’s only 90 minutes that you get to see. I wish the film was longer. Are you completely, are you are you a different person now? Like, I would think that sort of journey would have completely changed a person for the good.

Leon: Yes. Uh, look, the person that left India and the person that sits before you today is definitely different in many, many ways, right? Um, less in my mind, more in my heart, um, more connected emotionally and spiritually. Again, that doesn’t mean that it was a panacea to get on a plane and go to India, find God, and. Oh, okay. All right then. Everything’s fine now. That’s that’s not the way it worked for me. You know, I still have bad days. Yesterday was one of them. Uh, today is better. Um, but it’s a it’s a process, right? It’s like an an unraveling that gets us to where we ultimately want to be. And I think I’m on that that journey still. The movie helped immeasurably. I think actually, what actually helped in some weird way more than Doing the actual adventure. Although, of course, that’s really important was the editing process, because I had to watch all of these amazing people that I met and all of their wisdom again and again and again and again and again until it became part of who I am. So the first moment of the experience was great, don’t get me wrong, but this the moment of editing and the repetition, the good repetition. Because sometimes you can have bad repetition. Just turn on the news. Yeah. Um, but the good repetition stays with you, right?

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : It it really is about retraining our mind. And then as you first started sharing, leaving the mind and moving into the heart.

Alison : Mm.

Jean : And living your life from that. And and, you know, in this day and age, it’s, it’s really challenging because there’s so much out there that vies for our attention. And, and we, we sort of lose that the place of and I say holiness as in nothing’s lacking. Everything is beauty and perfect, whole and complete. Do you, um, do you have and and to your point also, Leon, it is a that’s I think why they call it a spiritual practice, because it’s just not like you do this once and I’m good. I’m done. You know, it’s it’s like brushing your teeth or vacuuming your rug. You know it… It’s something we have to dedicate our attention to is our inner world. Do you have a practice that you can that you can share with us, that you that helps ground you into your heart.

Leon: Sure. Um, so one of the things that I do, and I made a conscious decision many years ago, was to try my best and to commit to living from a place of love and from a place of compassion and generosity. Now, do I do that perfectly? No. But I have committed to it. So when I mess up, I’m like, okay, you made a commitment to live a certain way. I don’t think doing what you just did was probably the best thing to do. So you have to get back on the wagon, right? Okay. Um, when it comes to. So that’s like the macro thing, which is really important. You know, some people make a commitment and then there’s nothing wrong with this. Some people make a commitment to make as much money as they want. Great. Some people make a commitment to create a magnificent family. Great. I just made a commitment early on to live from this place to the best of my ability. Okay. Um, and from a micro perspective. Look, there are two things that I do every day that help me a lot. And the first thing you’ve heard many, many times, and that’s simply that I meditate. I don’t necessarily meditate just in one specific way. Sometimes I meditate with with no music, with nothing. Sometimes I’ll meditate with, um, a specific chanting song, sometimes I meditate with…. However I do it, I do that right. And I’ve done that for a long time, and that that helps. But I will say something else, which I do, which I think is, has helped me immeasurably. I keep using the word immeasurably for some reason. I have no idea why, but whatever.

Jean : It’s a great word.

Alison : It’s excellent. Yeah.

Leon: Is that I use music to regulate my nervous system and I do it very consciously. So, for example, if I’m having a moment, it’s not pleasant. For whatever reason, I will go through my playlist and I will find a song that will calm me down in that moment, and I will listen to it on repeat. I may have to listen to it on repeat for an hour. I may it may only take 15 minutes. And then it really kind of balances me and and calms down my nervous system. And it’s not always the same song. It could be a different song. Could be…. Sometimes I need an EDM song, right? Sometimes I need a very peaceful, calm piano song, whatever it is. But it’s something so simple. Next time you find yourself in a not such a great place, right? Obviously you can use music as well for when you are in a great place, but let’s say for not, you’re not in such a great place. Go through your list, find a song and listen to it for as long as you can for you to rebalance yourself. So, for example, I may be at like 95% anxiety, which is a very bad place to be. But if I listen to this song for 45 minutes, whatever song it is, I could go down to 50% just by doing that. Yeah, and it’s something easy that anyone can do, but it has to be on repeat.

Jean : Right, right, right.

Alison : Not just once.

Leon: Not just once.

Alison : Yeah.

Leon: As long as it takes to get you rebalanced.

Alison : That’s really interesting.

Jean : I think the same way..

Alison : My son does that… I think Brady does… I think my, I think my son does that because he’ll listen and listen and listen. And then I’m like, what were you listening to? He goes, oh, I’m just you know, I was getting into it for an hour, but it’s over. And then he’ll move on to something. I’m going to ask him. That’s really interesting. Leon.

Leon: Yeah.

Jean : Yeah – music absolutely has that power for me as well… Um, and I’ll listen to.

Alison : That’s really interesting.

Jean : Yeah, it it is. And I and I forget that. And thank you so much for reminding me about that because I love music and I, I just think the same ruminating the same thoughts, the same thoughts. And then I’ll catch myself and I’ll say, why do I feel so not inspired, or a little agitated or whatever the word, whatever I’m feeling, and then I’ll listen or I’ll hear something and I feel so much better.

Alison : It’s very smart.  Can you, can we just…. Okay, so—- what’s God?  Let’s just do it, Leon.  Let’s just do it. Come on.

Leon: Oh, wow. Um. Well, look what I noticed or what I realized in the movie in my trip around India was that you can’t explain God. You have to feel it. Right. So I think that’s a good starting point. So whatever I say to you is probably not going to answer the question, because it’s a feeling that comes from within you. Right, but I’ll try my best.

Alison : Great.

Leon: And I’ll tell you what. God is for me.

Alison : Okay.

Leon: Okay. It’s the universal energy of love. And it’s a vibration, a vibrational experience that once you’ve had it, you never forget it. And, it has to be felt. You can read the Koran, you can read the Bible, you can read every religious text in the world. But if you think you’re going to get to God through your mind, you’ll never stop reading because it will never happen. I don’t know. Did that answer your question?

Alison : That’s really great. And then on top of that, in in the movie, you say at one point, um, and the people you met are unbelievable. And I just fell in love with all the people. But at one point you say, um, I, I see I think he was a Buddhist because you’re talking about not there is no God. And you say, I see that you are God. So if you saw that he was God, didn’t you already know God?

Leon: That’s an excellent question. And the answer is, yes. Right. We can have moments of that and not be as connected enough to be able to have it guide our lives. Right. And maybe that’s where I was. And in the movie, that’s really no one’s ever pointed that out. But it’s a very, very good point– in the movie, i think it’s very close to that scene, and I want to give away the moment, but it’s very close to that scene where I’m walking and I say with the voiceover, I say, I felt like I was a breath away from God. So what I mean by that is that each person I met got me closer and closer and closer. So in that moment with the Buddhist, I had met God, but I wasn’t aware of it at.

Jean : Right, right. So when we when that movie was over, Allison looked at me and she said that she, she said that very quote to me… We were sitting right over there, and I said, I said yes. I said, because when you spot it, you got it.

Leon: Mm. Mhm.

Jean :  Right. So, so in my um my belief is, is that the universe is a is our outer world is reflecting back to us. Right. So if I see you. Wow. Leon, you have something… You have this quality that I’m that I desire. You know, it’s like if I, if I see it in you, it is already in me. And we’re removing the blocks to that awareness.

Leon: Yes. That’s that’s beautiful.

Jean : There are so many The way in my training with A Course in Miracles is through forgiveness because we judge ourselves. So the judgment is, I’m not that-  I’m judging myself, right. And then someone comes along and gives that back to us. And you say that too Leon, the greatest gift we can give another is, is to help, another to be seen, and that fuels them… So we are in this together.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : We are. We are co-creating our entire life experience. And and your movie is exquisite in showing that it. We were so taken with your movie.

Alison : Do you think that then your kindness books you had met God… You had that… Is the beginning. The beginning of like you’re on the elevator. You’re on the ground floor there, because if you have come to the idea that for you is that feeling of connectedness and love. Did you feel that during your travels?

Leon: Look, I absolutely did feel it. Did I feel it the same way that I feel it now? No I didn’t. And I was on the elevator floor at the beginning and on the ground floor with the Kindness diaries. Right. And all the stuff I had done. And I think this was something, something different. And that’s why, as we started the podcast, you mentioned these are two different things.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : And that’s because the first one or yes, the happy go lucky guy, but the first one was really the ground floor and it was like an unraveling, uh, as the as well. Let’s hope the elevator doesn’t unravel. We’ll use another analogy. Yeah, it was like a, you know, the elevator going slowly, slowly further up, further up being more connected. More connected.

Alison : Right.

Alison : And you, you seem right now so open and so loving. We’re living in a very, um, distinct time where I think some of it there’s a perception of cruelty. So how do you keep your heart from being pained?

Leon: Yeah, that’s a very good question. And I am aware of what’s going on. It’s highly troubling. I’m a student of history, and I see patterns, and there is a lot of cruelty. Um. How do I keep my heart clean? The truth is, I don’t watch the news.

Alison : Yeah.

Leon: People always tell me things. They tell me things. But I don’t watch the news. Because when I turn on the news, it’s. Sometimes it feels like I’ve been punched in the stomach.

Alison : Yeah.

Leon: You know, the level of the level of what is going on out there and not just what’s going on out there from the top, but the people that are allowing it to go on and the people that are…. How do I say this? Egging it on. And, i don’t want to call them minions, but I can’t think of anything else. The minions, I would say to those people, go to Auschwitz. Go to Auschwitz. Because when we live in a world devoid of empathy, that’s what happens. And if you go to Auschwitz, it it changes you at a cellular level. Look at history. It’s interesting… I don’t talk about geopolitics, i don’t talk about politics. But because I’m a student of history. When I see people doing what they do, it just drives me insane.

Alison : Yeah.  It’s it’s truly, truly heartbreaking. And my, my father was, um, a journalist, and his whole mission was a mission of good and finding out and, and I think now he’s passed away and I think now we live in such a world. I don’t know that he could recognize or what you’re saying… He would recognize it so vividly that it would break. Really just break his heart. And, um, I have a child that came out as non-binary, and I have to say, I feel frightened for that child. And, um, I love them with my whole heart. And I think people make a snap judgment on how they present. And so I found your movie so hopeful. Um, do you what do you find hopeful besides music and meditation? Is there is there actually, um, a place or a person or something that you kind of gravitate to? Because I showed your movie to my family because I just wanted to stay in that sort of feeling. Is there anything like that for you?

Leon: Look, there’s a lot of hope out there, right? We can look at the darkness, but there’s still hope. Like in the Second World War, there was a lot of darkness, right? But there was also a lot of hope. And ultimately hope won.

Alison : like what, though? Like what? When you say that, like, what can you. Can you tell me what your referencing.

Leon: Conversations like what we’re having right now.

Alison : Gotcha.

Leon: Uh, books that espouse love and books that espouse resolving these types of issues that are going on right now. Podcasts. Um, lots of things. There’s lots of hope.

Alison : It makes me feel good.

Leon: Let’s not forget that there’s lots of hope. We watch the news and we think there’s no hope. But there is a lot of hope.

Jean : Yeah.  There is. I think you’re being a light in the world when you when you hold the door open for someone, when you’re when you appreciate a friend or you reach out, you know- that I think we’re all I think there’s so much hope and and we’re really asked to turn the gas up.

Alison : Yeah.

Leon: Do you know what people do.. mistakenly?  They take those who have an open heart and a kind, and they look at them as if they’re weak. Right. Okay. And they think, oh, you know, because you have an open heart and because you’re kind. Um, we can walk all over you. I would say to those people, remember Muhammad Ali. Yeah. And I’m really saying this to us. I and the people that are listening. Muhammad Ali was a man of love. A man of kindness. A man of service. Not a perfect man. No one is. How many of you would mess with Muhammad Ali?

Alison : Right?

Leon: So when people take our kindness and compassion and generosity as weakness, I would say to them, there is a line that I would suggest you do not cross. I will be kind. I will be compassionate, and I will be loving. But don’t see that as weakness, because I assure you it isn’t.

Jean : Mhm. Yeah.  It’s like…do you know the author Anita Moorjani?

Leon: I’ve heard of her.

Jean : She had a near-death experience and it’s amazing… And she’s amazing. And she wrote a new book called sensitive is the new strong.

Leon: Okay.

Jean : And it is about our sensitive nature, our vulnerability. Much like yourself, Leon, a man that is really,  you’re being very open and vulnerable with your journey and and going, you know, this happened and – and the power of and – and I was able to move through it and and be of ultimate service –like your your film your books are, are truly of service and your talks.

Alison : And what I like about you is you seem like a tough nut.

Leon: Do you know what? Yeah. I mean —.

Alison : Like, in the best sense …Like, you’re not, you’re not like, you’re very different than, um, than someone that typically, you know, you just, you know, you you don’t seem like you take a lot of guff and it doesn’t seem like… And it seems like you just want to get to the point, which I really, I really Enjoy.

Leon: Thank you.

Alison :  do you think, like, what’s next for you? Do you think like like, are you going to go along this path or like where where where is your heart and mind taking you?

Leon: So remember the scene in Rishikesh when I was sitting opposite NandiniG at the statue of Shiva, right? And I sat there and I said to her, I said many things, but one of the things I said to her is, look, you have what I want. You clearly have what I want. How on earth do I get that? And she turned around and she says, don’t do, just be. And it was so profound in the moment. It was profound. But listening to it 500 times made it more profound. And I came to a realization with this movie that I was not going to do anything except focus on this movie and promote this movie. And when I knew when it came to me of what I was going to do next, I would know. So as it stands now, I have no idea.

Alison : I love that.

Leon: And I think that’s a beautiful thing. It’s a beautiful place to be.

Leon: Yeah, yeah.

Jean : It’s very fresh.

Leon: Yeah, it’s crazy right? It’s like. Because that wasn’t me. In the old days, I would doo doo doo doo doo doo doo. And I’m proud of the success, but I overdid it.

Alison : Yeah.

Leon: I really overdid it. I remember I once, and this sounds insane, but it actually happened. I did 47 speeches in 42 days whilst driving from LA to New York. That’s insane. And you wonder why I had a meltdown? Yeah, I was running away from the pain, even though I was teaching people to to face it. I myself was running from it.

Alison : Yeah, yeah.

Jean : Oh, and another great quote you say you offer in the movie. You say the kindest man has to start being kind to himself.

Leon: Yes.

Leon: Yeah. Yes.

Jean : So great.

Leon: Mhm.

Leon: That was a beautiful moment. That was a beautiful shot. The cinematographer did a great job there.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : Well I wonder what would they get out of it?

Leon: I mean, they got a lot out of it.

Alison : Yeah.

Leon: The experiences I was having, they were having too.

Alison : Yeah. That’s so great.

Leon: The travel, the wise people, they were watching the edit as well. Right. They were having the same look. They had their own unique experience. Yeah, but they were there experiencing it all.

Jean : It shows how when you say yes to a project, you know, there’s there’s something so much bigger going on with the soul.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : Like you’re a little human. So I’m going go and make a movie and I’ll sign up. Oh, I got a job. I’m going with this guy over to India. And meanwhile, your soul is is being transformed in in such a beautiful way.

Alison : What are you proudest of.

Leon: In my life? I’m proudest of my relationship with my partner. He is a magical human being. It took a long time to get to that.

Alison : That’s beautiful.

Leon: Yeah. Um. I’m proud of the movie. Immeasurably. Again, I use that word a lot. Yeah. Um, I’m. I’m proud of a lot of things. I’m proud of my relationship with my dog. He’s an, he’s an interesting fellow. He’s got an addiction to many things. Um, but he’s an interesting fellow. Um, I’m proud of a lot of things.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : Good.

Alison : I love that the first thing you said was a connection…With another person, because I think it’s… That’s the stuff that, um. I think that ultimately that’s the stuff that soothes us and comforts us the most. So that’s really beautiful. Is your dog there?

Leon: He’s outside playing with the ball.

Alison : Oh good. Good on him. Yeah. You know, we normally end our podcast. The name of our podcast is Inside Wink, and we normally end by asking our interviewees, what do you think or what does it mean for you? The word inside wink?

Leon: Um. Being, I guess, Divinity.

Leon: Being a being aware of what we are. And sometimes it just takes a wink for us to wake up. And I’ll tell you a quick story about synchronicity or a wink, the divine wink, let’s call it. So this wasn’t in the movie. We tried desperately to put it in, but it just didn’t make any sense. We couldn’t do it. Um, but after 2 or 3 days in India, I wanted to give up. In fact, I did give up. I wanted to go home, and I was on my I was in a hotel in Rishikesh, up in the mountains, and I decided that that was it. It was finished after 2 or 3 days. So I was walking literally to my director’s room to tell him that I was going home. And I saw this door that was open on my way. I was like, that’s interesting. I’ll go in there. So I go in there and it’s a it’s like a little library inside this hotel. Not a particularly magnificent library, but whatever. There were 20 books, 30 books, whatever. And I walk in there, and I love books, obviously. And what do I find? Another of Paramahansa Yogananda’s books, this time called, The Divine Romance, which is all about finding God. That’s the entire book. So I said to myself, okay, I’m not going home.

Alison : Yeah.

Alison : That gives me chills.

Leon: Yeah, it was crazy, right? Literally, I was on my way to the room to go home.

Alison : Yeah, that is perfect.

Jean : What a great godwink for you to go. No. Turn it around.

Alison : You’ve got to do a director’s cut. You’ve got to release this stuff.

Leon: The problem, the problem. The reason why we didn’t do it is because obviously, there were no cameras. When I had that moment, and it was all happening inside me, so we ended up filming it after the fact. But it didn’t feel right.

Jean : No, no.

Alison : But I love that when everything. Just you just. It’s such a direct like, hello?

Leon: Exactly.

Jean : But but that was great. And we need those little taps on the shoulder. Yeah.

Leon: Absolutely.

Jean : Yeah. So true. Okay, so I’m going to ask our final question. Uh, what’s your favorite cake? Pie or ice cream?

Leon: Hmm.

Leon: Rice pudding.

Alison : Oh, that’s what we love.

Leon: I love my grandmother. Used to make rice puddings. We would go to her house every Sunday and she would have rice pudding for dessert. But she knew that we loved rice pudding, so she would leave them out in the kitchen. So the moment we walked in, we would go and, like, eat five rice puddings.

Alison : Oh, I love that. No one has said that. Yeah, yeah,

Jean : We. Have to add that to our list.

Alison :  We do. We definitely do.

Jean : Pie. Ice cream or rice pudding?

Alison : I would vote for that. You are such an interesting, wonderful human. And I’m so glad that you got to share this, this, this, this time with us, because… And I can’t wait to see what moves you next.

Leon: Well, thank you so much for having me. It means a lot.

Jean :  many blessings. You and your life is a beautiful blessing to countless people.

Alison : Yes.

Leon: Thank you.

Jean : Thank you.

Alison : Thank you. Have a great…we’ll See you on Fyrman.

Leon: Yes.

Alison : Bye.

Jean : Wow. I, I really felt very, um, akin to this man. You know, I felt he was, um, not pontificating yet, he was very wise. He’s sharing his his journey and had so much to offer and will continue.

Alison : I was just saying this to you though, but that reminds me of you in a way. Like, you know, you don’t pontificate and you’re very wise. And I just love when we’re able just to get into a conversation with somebody. Yeah. And what I like is, um, he just seemed like a regular guy in a hat.

Jean : Yes. And that’s what makes it so relatable. Yeah. And about. I think kindness is the answer. And I think we are being asked all the time now… Are you going to choose love and kindness, or are you going to choose fear and anger or and not that that has its place. You know, I don’t want to say that we should never be fearful or angry, because I certainly have my moments, But it’s, you know, the power really is in being kind and starting with ourselves.

Alison : I love that you say that. We’re being asked now. And I think that’s so true. I think, um, so many times within a day you can make, I, I can make a choice to be kind or just to be like a crab. And I’m really siding more towards laughing more and loving more, you know, and trying to be on that side of the fence, you know?

Jean : Yeah. I mean, because it just, it’s it’s contagious.

Alison : Mhm. Mhm. And his, his movie is just.

Jean : Oh I think it should be seen in schools.

Alison : Yeah. And the fact that the title says um, A Journey to Freedom.

Jean : I wanted to ask him about freedom, but we didn’t. But I was watching the clock also… And um, again, another great person that I could have spent the afternoon chit chatting with.

Alison : So please check out. Please check out his movie. Please go to his his website. It’s in our little blurb. His name is Leon. Leon Logothetis. So it’s just look how how you spell it. And just really, he has so many books out. He’s just he was a really wonderful. So we hope it inspired you.

Jean : Yeah. And we know you’re kind. We know that about you. And we are grateful for your listening to our podcast.

Alison : That’s right. Thank you so much. Have a have a beautiful day. Bye.

Jean : Bye.