Podcast Episode 65: Carson Tueller

Alison : You get up when the sun comes up?

Jean : Yeah, because the sun comes through my window and I am like, okay, time to get up.

Alison : I get up when the lunch truck dings. I know that’s not true. I’m a little better than that. Yeah, but I don’t. I don’t wake up when the sun comes up, though. It’s so beautiful then, though.

Jean : I love the early morning. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Alison : So do you like the late, late night?

Jean : No. I like to be completely asleep in the late nights.

Alison : I like the late, late night. I like, like one and two in the morning.

Jean : Are you awake then?

Alison : Sometimes.

Jean : Okay.

Alison : I love that time.

Jean : Yeah, well, it’s another very quiet time in the morning.

Alison : Yeah. Yes, yes.

Alison : Um, okay.  I’m very interested today to talk with Carson Toler. Right?

Jean : Yes. Have you ever heard of him before?

Alison : I just know him from Instagram a little bit.

Jean : Got it. I mean, what he has to say is really what so many people…well, what I need to hear,  be reminded of, um. He’s wonderful. Absolutely. He was wonderful.

Alison : He was raised in a mormon household and then came out as queer and then had an accident on a trampoline. Right. And, um, is now in a wheelchair. And that’s a lot to, a lot to go through. And his his spirit, i’m just so in awe of his beautiful spirit, the way I am in all of our guests.

Jean : Yeah, I think in that part is what I’m interested in talking to him about how how he really, um, devoted his, um, consciousness to to seeing beyond the physical.

Alison : Yeah, he’s kind of amazing. I can’t wait to talk to him. All right, well, here he is. Here’s Carson. Hi.

Alison : Hi. Hi.

Carson: Good to meet both of you. It’s so fun that you’re both in the same box.

Alison : Yeah, we hang out a lot together.

Carson: So cool. Okay, good.

Alison : We love each other, and, um, we’re so, we’re so interested and excited to talk to you, because you are such an introspective, thought conscious young man. And that is just what the world needs right now. And so for our, um, listeners, can you just do sort of a little bit of your in history for them?

Carson: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Oh so…. History…, okay. Um, yeah. So I grew up in a big, bustling military Mormon family. I’m the second of six kids and we’re just tight knit, we’re like a little clan. We moved everywhere every couple of years. And, um, my best friends and, uh, just like I don’t know that any of us have a friend that is closer to each other than we are. Um, if that makes sense. So, um. Yeah, I just had a, um… I was a closeted little Mormon gay boy. Right? And so that really impacted sort of the way that I went through life and my adolescence and everything. Uh, but I would say that, i always experienced a kind of existential yearning, even from a really young age, just this sense of I wanted to be up to something. I felt like I was called to be up to something. I had no idea what. Um, but I found myself with a particular restlessness of, like, there’s something really important about this, about all of this, about this life thing. And then the time I placed that in the context of my religious upbringing. And I had some answers for that about the plan to get back to God and overcome sin, and, you know, these ideas of salvation. And and that was helpful and not quite satisfying still, you know?

Carson: So I went on a mormon mission to South America. I came back and in this very pivotal year in 2013, at 23 years old, I came out. And at the end of that year, I was in an incident that broke my neck. I was in a trampoline accident. My family was there. Broke my neck and I became a low level quadriplegic. So I’m kind of between a paraplegic and a quadriplegic. I’m paralyzed from the chest down. My hands are slightly paralyzed. I have all of the other sort of complexities that come with being a quadriplegic. Um, and, everything I thought about how my life would go really changed in that year. Like I had lost the community I’d thought I’d have for a lifetime in the Mormon church. I lost my ideas about the white picket fence and a dog. And like I was determined.., i don’t know why. I was determined to have eight children, and I thought, I’d have a PhD. Yeah. Both my parents have six kids in their family, so I just decided I’d add two, I guess… So I, I sort of I was compelled on a couple of different levels to ask the question, who am I? Who is Carson? And I had these moments of, of, uh, I mean, I remember being in this dark hospital room after injury.

Carson: I mean, I still had, like, fresh stitches in the back of my neck, and I had my phone open and my hands were still there. You get some spinal shock after a spinal cord injury. So you’re more paralyzed than you will be in the future, right? As as that sort of, um, the swelling goes down. So I’m sitting there with these thumbs that barely move. And I was just. Um, sitting in the middle of the night thinking about, like, what? Who is Carson? Outside of everything I’ve ever done that I use to describe myself. I use so much of my doings in my performance. To describe who I was. Um, and yeah, I just had this note out on my phone and it just said paralyzed. Paralyzed, paralyzed. Like, I just couldn’t get that word out of my head. I was like, what does this mean? I can’t believe this is me. So all of that really proved to be the foundation of my quest to find myself, um, my quest to to answer, uh, I don’t have the answer, but the the journey to asking the question, ongoingly, who am I? What matters? What am I here to do? What do I really want?

Alison : That’s. Thank you for sharing all that. I think we we were talking and, you know, we’re torn because, we want to know about you right now…and not focus on the past… you know?   okay. So who are you? What matters? Let’s just get to the meat of it.

Carson: So good. I, I really appreciate, I appreciate that a lot because, um, those, those events were so impactful that there’s a sort of magnetism around them to go back and talk about what happened… And, um, and I have so much content of even just from this week or last week about what really matters. So I love to talk about where I’m at right now. Gosh. Um. What really matters? I’m just going to say out loud, I feel like emotional talking about this and in a way that I is important to me, but that you might be able to hear it at some point or see if you can see me….. Um, I believe, and I feel in my bones, i think a lot of people do right now, that civilization is in a, in a a window. We’re in a window of decision of what we are going to create for future generations. And it’s eminently clear that our ways of being, our values collectively, are not sufficient for perpetuating life on this earth, both for the human species and for the rest of the planet.  and I think that what really matters, is that we make some decisions collectively and personally, that will bend the trajectory of the human predicament away from a crisis and into a moment of crossing over into something new. Um, and I have and I’m constantly thinking about this…. Um, because things are speeding up.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : Yes.

Carson: And that window…. I don’t want to create artificial urgency, but there is a window in which we need to act. Um, and so I think it really matters that we grapple with that as a collective. And I think that that starts with grappling with those questions inside of ourselves first.

Alison : How do we want to live?

Carson: Yeah.

Jean : Yeah.

Carson: Yeah. How do we want to live and and all of those same existential questions of who am I? Um, where am I out of alignment with myself? Where am I living a lie? Where are my values not reflective of who I want to be?  I think of a concept a lot that I use in my work called rewilding. And rewilding is a concept in the world of eco restoration, and it’s one of the solutions to biodiversity loss that that’s being experienced on the planet. And the idea is that when you take away all of the destructive human activity that, um, and this is, you know, a more complicated concept because it does sometimes include introducing new Keystone, Keystone species and things like that. But when you remove everything that isn’t true or everything that doesn’t work, all that destructive human activity, nature knows exactly how to thrive. It knows how to recreate itself. It knows how to create these ecosystems that are just teeming with life. And when I came across that concept, it rang so true for my own life, which was, I have to take away everything that’s causing me suffering because, there is a true nature or a natural self that knows exactly how I’m supposed to live and who I am supposed to be. So when we talk about that individual work, that’s the frame that I think about it in is who am I not? So I can make a space for who I am to emerge, to create a life that’s in alignment with that.

Jean : I mean, I think for me, Carson, what what you are expressing is so much of what, um, like a type of a spiritual, a spirituality, a shift in perception from being identified as the outer body. Jean has long hair. Jean has green eyes. Jean is five. Nine. Allison is..looks this way. It’s really asking us to me what you’re saying, to look beyond the physical and see the the soul. And and I think that shift in perception, it’s up for all of us now. Like, where are we not being honoring of our soul?

Carson: Um.

Jean : You know, we we do get caught up in how we look. And and I heard in one of your podcasts about, um, especially for the masculine. It’s a very do, do, do.

Carson: Yeah. Yeah.

Jean : And and I do think this feminine energy is emerging where we’re asked to, Be… like who are we being?

Carson: Mhm.

Jean : Who do you really want to be in the world rather than you know, it’s like going deeper because we are not going to survive if we deal with life on a very superficial level.

Carson: Yeah.

Alison : Your website talks a lot about freedom. I want to understand what that means to you. And also, you said something really interesting about the rewilding… We saw that nature’s rewilding during Covid.

Carson: It’s so true. Such a perfect example. Yes.

Alison : You know.

Carson: Yeah.

Alison : It was beautiful. But what is freedom to you?  And freedom from what? Because I know what I think. But I want to hear you.

Carson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, it’s a great question, that I don’t have an answer to. Um, despite talking all about it, you know. Um, and I think that I’ll, I’ll make that disclaimer right off the top. I have spent y’all, all of my life thinking that there that coming to an answer was a measure of success, that coming to an answer was the point of a question.

Alison : Um.

Carson: I don’t think it is anymore.

Alison : Fantastic.

Carson: I actually think that the question itself is, is the prize is it’s in the exploration of that with a willingness to not know. Yeah. That keeps this constant space for discovery and transformation open. So with that being said, I’m going to like talk about freedom without giving a direct answer, but I’ll talk about some of the ways in which I experience it, which is…. You know, prior to my spinal cord injury, prior to being paralyzed, I thought of freedom as, you know, the way that we think of freedom in, in, you know, like the United States, which is like my ability to cause a change in the physical world. It’s like my freedom to to move about, to create a life, um, sort of in yeah, in time and space. Right? Whether that’s like money or whether that’s the ability to change my body, it’s like the idea of there’s a certain kind of freedom in a person’s relationship to their circumstances, if that makes sense.

Alison : Yep.

Jean : What I was struck by when I broke my neck was that there were lots of things I couldn’t change suddenly, and it was one of the first moments as a young 23 year old that I was like, oh, all of that, like power that I had to cause change in my life to like, produce outcomes. It wasn’t happening anymore. And I had used that kind of power and freedom to experience…. Yeah… I guess to experience freedom. So now I was required to find a certain kind of, it’s like what Jean was just talking about, the difference between being and doing is like, could I experience freedom in my being, in a circumstance I couldn’t change… Something that was truly fixed. Like, could I be at peace and joyful or filled with purpose in a body that I mostly can’t move and feel? And while I am in perpetual chronic pain and while while I have constant disruption? And I went on a very long quest to to answer those questions or to find freedom in those circumstances. And I ultimately found that through philosophy. Right? By asking questions about, like getting under the premises of of my beliefs, what makes me, me? Do I really need to do these things to be free? And so that’s why I’ve become so passionate about the idea of that existential freedom is because I think that humans can be at– we have the freedom to choose who to be in any circumstance. So I like to play around with both of these in my coaching practice– is what are the things that you want to change in your circumstances? While also, why don’t we look at the way that your being is in relationship to those circumstances? So we are playing around with different kinds of power and freedom. Um, but I find a lot of I find a lot of solace reminding myself, that I am free to choose, no matter what.  um. I’m experiencing this live as we are speaking, I blew out my knee last week, um, in like a horrible accident.

Jean : Ohhh.

Alison : oh, Sorry.

Carson: Yeah, it was really disturbing and difficult, and I sort of like, I blew out my knee, and they told me if you were a walking person, this would probably lead to, like, a knee replacement at some point. And I was like, right back in there being like, who am I going to be about this? This makes my life… I just became more disabled… I don’t know for how long? Um, where is freedom here? You know, playing around with the things that I don’t have power over. So.

Alison : I feel like you’re a modern day philosopher, Carson. I’m not joking.

Carson: That means a lot to me. Thank you.

Alison : I really do.

Jean : And I think, you know, the power of your thought… And what you’re sharing is um,  i think we all go through, not not to the level that, you know, you know, I’m, I’m able to get up and walk out, but like, it is like what you were saying, it’s like that freedom from the physical…. and yet we have to be in this physical. So what helps you, um, when you’re having a rough day? Like who? Is there someone? Is there,  like who do you lean in? What do you lean into to help you through the days that are more hard?

Carson: Totally. Yeah. Well, my first line of practice is to, to be aware that I am… My reflex will be to resist whatever grief or suffering is coming my way.

Alison : Mhm.

Carson: Right so,,,

Jean : You try to go– oh I’m you know,  this is really not happening.

Carson: Yeah, I know that my go to will be to be strong or power through. And I’ve done this enough now, that I know how to flag it and be like, okay something horrible just happened…. So I’m going to be particularly attuned to moments when I’m feeling rage. I feel like I need a good cry. Like  so I make sure that I’m in touch with whatever that wave wants to take me on. After I blew out this knee, I, it was probably three days and like, my anxiety was through the roof, like my head was, I could just feel like my blood pressure was up. Yeah. And my body was like, what just happened, you know? And my body is confused when pain like that happens and it responds in a particular way. Um, but, uh, yeah, I like, make sure that I have the space to grieve. And I was able, with some loved ones to, like, break down and have a good sob about it, like about three days after– the combination of fear and,  just To sadness and like and angry. And this was so stupid. This didn’t have to happen. And also, you know, I’m young, uh, and I have my whole life ahead of me. And this is only going to happen more. I’m going to be more disabled, and I’m scared. And what about all of the things I love? And I’m going to lose more? And so, to answer your question, Jean, uh, the I like, I like make sure that I’m prepared to move through those feelings. And I know that I can’t create anything if like, I need to really let my heart break. I think that’s like the wisest thing I ever chose to do after I became paralyzed is I was like, I’m going to let my heart be totally broken. Like there’s a tidal wave of grief coming. I’m not running. I’m going to lay down and I’m going to submit. I’m going to get back up and look for the people who love me.

Jean : Yeah.

Carson: So I let it wash over and it let me tell you, no matter how many times I practice it, everything in my body is like, don’t do it. Run like,right? Because it’s painful. When you visit some of like the most visceral pieces of your humanity. So I do that. I make sure that I have space to do that. Sometimes it’s like waiting to throw up when you’re nauseous. For me, when it’s like, I know this is coming, and I know if I know, I could just barf, then I’m going to like, feel better.

Alison : Yep.

Carson: And sometimes you can’t make that happen. And it just is going to happen on its own time. So there’s a patience there. I wait for it to happen. I really talk about it. I process it, um, and I do have to tap into spirit like, because when I’m afraid about my mortality, my perspective is right here in the now. And there’s fear there. There’s like hurt there. Scarcity is there. The sense that this is all wrong. Like I’m like, I just, like, ruined my life. Um, when I can take a pause and, like, get in touch with those first questions. Why am I here? What really matters? I can create a kind of elevation or an altitude above that. Where I can find a peace, that will hold me through anything. And I have to go find that sometimes, especially when I’m in the fear and scarcity and like, I’m paralyzed and I’m going to get hurt, or I could be killed so easily. Or, you know, all of those, like, big scary questions. So getting back in touch with the spirituality and I don’t know exactly like who it is or what it is that I’m being in touch with. Sometimes I think it’s like a higher self. Sometimes I think it’s like a truth in the universe or God. But, um… I’ll share with you there’s this– i’m not Christian or religious anymore. There’s a line in the book of Job after he’s been tried, like lost his family, lost his material wealth, lost his friends. He’s, like sick. He just lost everything. And he has this line where he says, and though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God. And there’s like this moment, and that’s the elevation I’m talking about, like that spirit of being like, come what may. And I’m clear about what I’m here for on this planet. And until, like my last breath, I will be engaged in that work. So take my body.

Alison : You know, you said something. You said something somewhere, i’m so. I don’t have a brain to remember. You said something somewhere about plan A and and, um, i cannot tell you how that has totally affected me. Like, on this really weirdly deep level. I can’t stop talking about it, i can’t stop thinking about it, um, my my eldest child came out as non-binary a few years ago. I thought I was the coolest mom, prior to that, I was not. I needed to learn that society had taught me incorrect lessons. And when you said plan A, all the stuff in my life that I consider trauma, I went, oh, wow… Like, I can feel it in me right now. And I thought that was one of the more powerful things I’ve ever heard. And at some points I could allow myself to go way up with it, but it kind of scares me still. Do you know? Like, it’s it’s, um…. So I wanted to thank you, and also sort of deconstruct that a little with you. The whole idea of a plan A. Um. Do you, is that still something that you carry with you? Is is that still where your your heart and soul is based? Or are you beginning to think that there maybe are no plans at all?

Carson: Yeah.

Alison : You know?

Carson: Yeah, it’s a it’s such a fun, interesting question. Like all of that. Um, yeah. The more like, the longer I’m alive, the more I feel, I feel excited, i’m not going to use the word certain, but the more I feel in my gut that what has happened to me in my life matters.  Um, even this knee thing, looks like just some stupid accident. It was a total, like, just freak accident situation, you know?

Alison : Mhm.

Carson: But even in that there’s, it seems to be imbued with some kind of spirit or meaning.

Alison : Wow.

Carson: And I no longer believe… I used to think that I was just this like, meaning making machine. I’m like this human that created meaning, you know, in order to survive. And I’m this like mechanism that just creates arbitrary meaning. I can say whatever I want, right? But I find that I can, through a spiritual practice, locate meaning in a felt kind of way, in a way that I no longer force myself to rationalize.

Alison : Oh.

Carson: Right. Because that’s the instinct is to be like, well, how do you know it’s plan A? What’s plan B? What’s plan B? Prove it.

Alison : Right. That’s exactly the fear level for me. You know?  Like what you’re saying is right.

Carson:  From what I’m hearing about what you’re sharing, and by the way, I appreciate that so much, and your reflection and just getting a, you know, a window into your own relationship with having a plan A or  and and to to give listeners some context. You know, the idea is that, things happen in a way that feels like they diverge from our, our plan or from a path. And we go, no, no, this is not part of the plan.

Jean : Yeah.

Carson: You know, um, and honestly, this circles back to our conversation about the different kinds of power and freedom.

Alison : Right, exactly.

Carson: So plan A diverges and then you’re going, whoa, wait one second. Um, and the freedom piece like that existential freedom piece is then to, like, really pause and look about what was it about your relationship to plan A that you were so interested in or attached? And what is it about this twist that feels scary?  What would it look like to incorporate that into your sense of plan A? Do you have the freedom to be wrong about your plan?

Alison : right.

Carson: Right. And these are all choices and explorations of that I think are inherently– I think they’re both cognitive and philosophical and spiritual.

Alison : Yes, yes I agree. Yeah.

Jean : Well, I, you know, it’s, uh, you’re so deep and I’m and I’m just, um, reveling in in the words that you’re saying. I feel  this awakening, this new way of being that we, we are all going through…. There’s a quote, you know,  when the tide rises, all, all boats rise. Right. It’s like it used to be that  certain people that would have to rise… But we are rise and change our perception in the way that we’re being in the world. But now the energies are just coming in full force and we’re just all asked to to level up. Yeah. You know, and and I was sharing with Allison before you got on that, you know, it doesn’t have an event. Doesn’t have to happen directly to us, we can learn and be grown by our friends. Like, you know, Allison’s child coming out was was huge for me, too, because of my… I thought, wow, I really assume a lot that people move in the world this way. And and for you, Carson being in a wheelchair… Do you notice that a lot as you move in the world? Like, do you sense people treating you differently or…?

Carson: Yeah.

Jean : Yeah.

Carson: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And you’re asking just to be clear about sort of like my, uh, my experience of how just people treat me as a visually disabled person.

Jean : yeah. Like when you’re out in the world, do you? Yeah.

Carson: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I’ve become a little desensitized to it because it’s been happening for so long.

Jean : Yeah.

Carson: Um, I had I was with I was with a new friend, like a gym buddy a couple of months ago. And we, we rolled through the gym and he, like, turned to me. He’s like, does everyone smile at you like that all the time? Because there’s this sort of infantilizing cutie smile that I get. It’s like, ah, the little guy in the wheelchair, you know, like, oh, you’re so amazing for being here. And, um, it used to enrage me, mostly because it would, like, bring up my own stuff of wanting to be like, don’t you dare look at me like that. I am, I am just like you. I’m not different. And, um. Yeah, I’m so used to it now. And I know how to be in a dance with some of these preconceived ideas. Um. And I know how to speak through them or around them, or address them in ways that, um, took me a second to learn how to do that, because I wasn’t so sure about what was going on or how to speak to it. But yeah, so so if I want to correct something, I know how to do that. And, um. Yeah. And I know how to take it, like, not take it personally.

Alison : Do we do you think we live in a loving world?

Carson: I think that the that the cosmos is driven by love as like a fuel, like an actual force. So yes. And I think that for a lot of reasons, um, we’ve all become players in this cultural game of prioritizing power, utility, efficiency, climbing the ladder, personal success in a way that undermines love. I actually think that’s the nature of the crisis that we’re in, is it’s a, um, it’s a crisis of intimacy, a crisis of love that has created these systems. It’s I mean, you can’t be filled with love and, um, tear down half the trees on the planet. Right.

Alison : Right.

Jean : Yeah, yeah, I was to to what you’re saying… I was going to ask you, what what do you feel is going on in our world today with, with all like… But you’re you’re talking about that right now.

Carson: Mhm.

Jean : Um yeah.

Carson: You know when I — so, so in 2020, no like 2021. Um I, I knew all about the climate crisis. I knew about what was happening. But then I like actually dove into the research and I bought a book and it ruined my whole life because, I finally learned about what was happening and my training as a coach, and also like my philosophical training, always has taught me to come back to this question of being. The ontological question. The being precedes the doing. And that’s super simplistic. It’s not a rule, because all of those things sort of like live together and flow…. The being, in the doing. But I have found it so much more effective to look at,  who am I being that has me producing these results in my life, right? So then when I look to everything that was happening on the in the climate, I became fixated on the question, where did this happen? In how human beings, the human species defines what it means to be a human?

Jean : Mhm.

Carson: Like where did we make some decisions about who we are that would lead us to be capable of destroying our home.

Alison : Right.

Carson: Because there had to be something. So, um, when you ask, you know what, what, what I think is happening? I have I have something else I want to say, but I’ll finish this thought, which is…. In certain points throughout history, humans decided that we weren’t animals, right? Uh, like the, like, dualist theory that has the mind separate from the body. And actually the body sort of like being an enemy.   Like something to overcome, something to fight against. And that the human mind was like this God power that was above all of it. And so this separation of nature and the human mind is what in part allowed us to start to begin this mechanistic view of, oh, they’re just trees. They’re not sentient beings. They’re just animals. It’s just water. It’s, you know. Right. And we see ourselves as divorced from the natural world in a way that would allow us to create this artificial separation. Um, for for anyone who’s who’s interested, I found a podcast, um, called The Great Simplification, with Nate Hagens.  And he talks about the systems view of what’s happening to, in what he calls the human predicament.   And he talks about all of the different dynamics that have us be where we are. And he calls it the human predicament also known as the meta crisis, which is the view of the many crises we face that threaten civilization in, in, you know, um, important ways. Um, his work looks at everything from like the, the human question,  to the social structure question, to the infrastructure question around technology…. So it’s like, it brings science and spirit and philosophy and psychology all together in a brilliant way that has really emboldened me in my own work, um, and equipped me with a lot of understanding on how to tackle this issue. Um, but I believe my work and my contribution here is to support people in answering and searching for that question…. the ontological piece, who am I?

Alison : You know, I think that’s- you’re fantastic… But, other than that, I think that, um, I feel that we’ve lost the communal sense of responsibility to each other for the planet, for consciousness. I feel that at some point that left us,  I think  human beings had it for a while, and maybe it was reflected in indigenous peoples, but I feel like exactly what you’re saying, you know? Do you want, to move around? We’re almost done.

Carson: Oh, perfect. I’m just, uh, I get I’m just fidgety in my chair. Like, this wheelchair is very helpful for moving around. And when I’m stationary, it’s not totally comfortable. So that’s all you’re seeing?

Alison : Yeah, we’re almost done, though. We just. You are? I first of all, I wish I could be there to hug you.

Jean : Yes. Me too.

Alison : I just want to give a shout out to your parents, because I think they helped you through times. From what I read. And I just think that is so beautiful, especially from maybe a mormon background. I’m not really familiar, but I wanted to give them a shout out and just applaud the fact that you’re thinking so deeply about things that really affect us all, because I think that that kind of thought, even just saying it here has a ripple effect.

Jean : You are a thought leader…You are a powerful, benevolent thought leader.

Carson: Thank you.  I receive that… Like, thank you. Um, I have to confess, I have been spending so much of my time in a fallow period…Being with these concepts and frankly, doing them myself, like I am the number one, live to win, blue ribbon… Give me the gold star. I want to beat out the competition. Like, that’s – like individualist, i’ll do it myself. I’ll do it better than you. Like, that’s how I grew up. And it’s how I don’t know, however, I wound up in the world, had me really be interested in playing that game in society.

Alison : Yeah.

Carson: And I have been doing like, this constant unraveling for the last 11 years to, to find and play around with other ways of being, so that I’m not beholden to those games that were causing me so much suffering.

Alison : Right.

Carson: Um, the confession part is I’ve been this fallow period, and, uh, I’m just a hair’s breath away from sending a final book proposal in about these topics. I want to create community around the experience of like a collective rewilding. It is so hard to do alone.

Alison : Yeah.

Carson: Like, to both of your, both of you talked about what it was like to actually be in community in the way that someone else’s struggles could, like, be learn from them in community, And so my dream is to create this movement of humans who are rewilding. Separately and together in a way that we start to contribute to our own tiny corner of the universe where we give our love in our own unique ways. Right? But like as a collective, to create this crossing moment for us.

Alison : You know, this whole time I’ve been thinking, I hope this guy writes a book.

Carson: I love writing more than anything. And I tell you, I’ve been I’ve been sitting on this for a very long time, waiting for waiting for the moment. And it’s coming.

Alison : Well, can we interview you again when the book comes out?

Carson: Oh my gosh. Yes.

Alison : Excellent… We have two final questions. Our name of our podcast is Inside Wink, and we were wondering what you think that means.

Carson: You know, I was thinking about thinking about this…. Um, I think an inside wink- feels like, i don’t know if there’s a right answer to this.

Alison : They are all right.

Carson:  Speaking of the answers, um, I’m telling you, I still have that reflex. I’m like, oh, what’s the– give me the A plus.  hahahah   So inside wink I think of the moment, when you and someone you care about or love, um, have knowledge of something, or like this, like it’s it’s sort of like, it’s not like an inside joke, right? But it’s like a moment of of knowing where you share a little a cue – to give them a wink, like, I see you. We’re on the same page, like a little cue of, you know how it is when you’ve got someone and, um, you’re both experiencing the same thing. You have the  both have the same, like, little moment, and you share a little wink as a playful nod to each other. That’s what I think of.

Alison : That’s perfect.

Jean : That’s beautiful.

Alison : That’s so you!

Carson: Something playful…. Something also generous because, it’s usually like, you know, when you’re humoring something or you, you don’t want to outright be like, you know….

Jean :  I love that.

Alison : Thank you.

Jean : Yes. Okay. And this is really a very significant question. Uh, do you prefer cake, pie or ice cream?

Carson: Oh Man? Pie.

Alison : Really?

Carson: Pie, I think yeah, it’s because it’s got, you know, I can tell you a cream pie, like a coconut cream, a banana cream.

Alison : Oh.

Carson: Man. Yeah, I’ll go for a pie any day.

Alison : Yeah. That’s good.

Carson: Instagram has decided that I love watching people eat delicious pastries.  And so it’s all I’m seeing right now on my feed.

Alison : It’s pastry porn.

Carson: Yeah, exactly. Like, this dude is so hungry.

Alison : I can’t thank you. We can’t thank you enough. You really are an amazing person.

Carson: Thank you so much. Yeah. Thanks for you…yea…go ahead.

Jean : You’re a blessing. you walk this world as a blessing.

Alison : And I can’t wait.

Jean :  And and even though you have your challenges, I, I know that, um, there is this higher power that is loving you and and supporting you and i’m so moved by this, by this, our interview.

Alison : And I can’t wait to see what comes up and just sign us up for the rewilding.

Carson:  oh, great. I can’t wait.  I can’t wait. I feel like we’re already in it together. And um,  I feel being with you, to even across from this screen. Like, I feel, i feel the connectedness and the being up to something that matters. And I’m just so grateful for this space you made for me to talk about where I’m at right now. Um, so, so thank you,

Alison : Because that’s where you are right now is so exciting.

Jean : And it’s full of possibilities.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : It’s full of infinite Possibility. And you are a demonstration of that…I am, Alison is,  everyone everyone listening? You know,  we are.

Alison : It’s what you said. It’s the choices.

Jean :  exactly what you said.

Alison : Thank you so, so, so much.

Jean : I can’t wait to hear….

Alison : I can’t wait to hang out with you more.

Carson: I can’t wait, thank you.

Alison : Thank you so, so much.

Alison : Have the most beautiful day.

Carson: I will you to. We’ll talk more.

Alison : Bye bye.

Jean : Okay.

Alison : Okay.

Jean : Well, yeah. That was very moving.

Alison : I don’t know. I felt so much looking at him and listening to him. I really felt like I was in the presence of, like, a philosophical thinker for our time.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : He’s so, um, right on the edge of something so like almost ethereal that and allowing us to just question when he said, I always thought that the answer was the point, but now I think the question is the point. Like that’s…

Jean : Yes.

Alison : I don’t know. I think he’s so interesting and fascinating and kind of exciting to be around.

Jean : Yes, He has a wisdom about him that is um, really expansive.

Alison : Yes. I mean, I am really interested to see the whole time I was thinking, this man has to write a book because he has to have, like, some sort of legacy that people can read on and on and, um, and to  be such a young man.  um, I don’t know, I just feel, I feel so inside, so charged.

Jean : I, feel like really quiet inside. Like in sort of like an irreverent type of way. Yeah. Wow. Um, I really can’t wait to do the transcription and hear all the words, the words and everything, but my goodness. And I’m so glad. Allison, you acknowledged his parents. That was so great.

Alison : And I hope he likes them.

Jean : Yeah, I think he does. I think from a couple of the interviews I heard. So and I also want to say, Allison, that first question out the gate, that that was really wonderful of you to ask him that.

Alison : Thanks.

Jean : I just want you to know that.

Alison : You know, to go back, like, let’s go forward, like let’s solve something.

Jean : I think he’s so appreciated that. And, um, you know, you open the door to a deeper level. So you were great.

Alison : Thank you, Jean…. That’s so sweet of you.

Jean : It’s true.

Alison : That’s so sweet. And I do have to say, now I do…. I really want some pie.

Jean : Okay, well, we’ll get you some pie.  Like, get this woman some pie.

Alison : I was like, yes, I’m with you everywhere, carson. Let’s do it!  I hope you guys really enjoyed him as much as we did. He’s just really so special. And, Carson, thank you so, so much.

Jean : You are truly wonderful in every sense of the word.

Alison : and can’t wait to see what else you’re up to.

Jean : Absolutely.

Alison : Have a great day, everybody!

Jean : Bye.

Alison : Bye.