Podcast Episode 72: John Tsilimparis

Alison : Hello. Hello. How are you doing today?

Jean : Are you enjoying the technical studies we’re having this morning?

Alison : We are not technically savvy at all.

Jean : At all.

Alison : But we’re laughing very hard. I’m crying. We’re laughing too hard about this.

Jean : Thank goodness we are self-employed.

Alison : What if someone relied on us for something? It would be terrible tech wise. Like what if. What if someone needed something? We were saying we’re trying to get, like, um, one of our Emma or our team person, and we couldn’t even zoom properly or or text. And I’m like, we’re writing you a letter, Emma. We hope you get it in a couple of weeks. Oh my God.

Jean : Oh, but it’s over.

Alison : That’s right.

Jean : It’s over. And we’re gonna now talk about the magic and the tragic.

Alison : Which is a perfect gift resonating with us here.

Jean : What would be the magic in the tragic of the tragic would be technology?

Alison : Right.

Jean : The magic would be?

Alison : That eventually we did it.

Jean : Yes. And that we’re growing through it.

Alison : We got through it. We’re growing. Right? We decided we don’t love it. We have a viewpoint now.

Jean : Right. And now we’re going to have macaroni and cheese together.

Alison : Which we don’t need, but we’re gonna eat it. Right. But this is this is actually an amazing book.

Jean : Yes. We both really enjoyed reading John’s Tsilimparis’  book called, “The Magic in the Tragic. Rewriting the script on grief and discovering happiness in our darkest days.”

Alison : Yes, and it just is such a good book. And I thought at first, all this is going to be kind of depressing, but it’s not at all. It’s really hopeful. And, um, I got a lot out of it.

Jean : Yeah. Me too. Me too. I, I guess I think, uh, this is such a great book. Just to read when your life isn’t in turmoil or you’re going through something really hard because you’ll have this as a beautiful, uh, tool book to fall back on.

Alison : Yeah. And grief doesn’t have to be, um, you know, losing a parent or something. He was saying, like, in a job, uh, moving, um, a friendship.

Jean : Empty nests?

Alison : Exactly. Empty nests. So here he is. We love him. Here’s John.

John: Nice to see you both.

Alison : It’s so great to meet you and see you. Thank you for doing this.

Jean : Hi John, I’m Jeane.

Alison : And I’m Alison.

John: Hello. Nice to meet you.

Alison : Hi.

Jean : Wow, what a book you wrote.  Um, yeah. I wish I was out a few years ago.

John: Thank you. Yeah.

Jean : But I also think to myself, um, I think this is such an important book to having your hands before you go through something so challenging. Uh, because when you’re going through it, i don’t know about you, but I didn’t feel like reading much, and, um, certainly this information is so valuable, John. Thank you.

John: Thank you. Thanks for taking the time to read it.

Alison : Yeah, we really we read a lot. And, uh, this was was excellent. We we have it. I have mine is all dog eared. We have nose ends to remind us. Um, could you just tell us a little bit about yourself and how you started on this path?

John: So I’ve been a psychotherapist for about 30 years now, just a little over 30, and I’ve worked a lot with people dealing with grief and loss. And so the idea of it, title of it, everything came to me over the years. But, you know, I’m no stranger to tragedy, as most people are not either. And so, um, I have found ways to dignify my grief as opposed to running from it or thinking that, you know, it’s bad for you to stay in it for too long and you need to get over it quickly and stuff like that. So, um, so a combination of my work, um, I love to write, so I like to express myself. I like to help people. And, um, I enjoyed writing about all the classical references in the book and the music and all that stuff, and those are things that have helped me and that have helped my clients. So I knew I was going to write the book years ago, but it just took me a while to put it together. So, um, and if either one of you have ever written a book, you know, it takes a long time to get it done unless you publish it yourself, which I was not interested in doing. So in answer to your question, the origin comes from my own experiences, but also as a clinician as well. Using a lot of these tools with my patients and clients.

Jean : Yeah. And I think that makes you extra compassionate, having gone through your own challenges to to sit with people and hear what they’re going through.

John: So thank you. Yes, I’d like to think so.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : You pepper some of those experiences in the book, but it’s really not about you, which I found interesting. Like you’re very present in it, but it’s not your necessarily your journey. And, um, I feel like we’re living in a time where there is grief on many levels. And have you seen that people’s, um, feelings have changed over the past few years? Did you start writing this during the pandemic?

John: I actually did, good call. I mean, I’ve been thinking about it for years, but during the pandemic is when I started writing it. And yes. So it’s interesting that you say that because, you know, the new CDC numbers are not great. So in the last ten years, depression, instances of depression in the United States has gone up by 60%. And since the pandemic, even more so, most mental health clinicians will agree that since 2020, the beginning of the pandemic, we’ve seen a spike in both anxiety and depression. And again, to your point, given today, the state of affairs in the world, the way that our country is right now, just everything, um, has really left people living with dealing with a different kind of uncertainty. It’s a different kind of norm these days, and I think people are struggling a lot more than ever. Um, but, you know, there’s still a lot of hope around that because the pandemic, one of the bright things about the pandemic is that it made people reach out much more. And before, you know, the governing bodies of all the psychotherapy practices and psychiatry practices weren’t so keen on online therapy. And so now anybody, even if you live two hours away from a big city anywhere in the US, can access somebody from their computer. So that’s been one good thing. So more people are reaching out. But we’re also seeing higher instances, as I mentioned, uh, of anxiety and depression.

Jean : Uh, yeah, I, I noticed that with, with, uh, my kid’s friends-  and my kids are in their early 30s, this anxiety.. and I think there’s a book out called like the, The Generation of Anxiety or something like that. So and thank goodness to your point that the, um, the stigma around mental issues has lessened. Mm. You know, I, I know that my parents, I knew they were going through a lot of stuff, but it was in the closet.

John: Yes. Agreed. Um, that’s what a lot of people tell me. My parents were the same great parents. Immigrants. Uh, but, you know, we didn’t talk about things the way that we should have, in my opinion, and that maybe people do more of these days. Um, also, people are also dealing with what’s called a prolonged grief, like a constant state of, like being stuck in, in constant grieving or bereavement about so many things that have happened. And, you know, even though the pandemic was years ago, people are still assessing their losses around that and still dealing with all of that stuff. So and then here in California, we had the fires in January. We’ve had a lot of stuff going on. And um, so yeah, it’s pretty indicative of what we’re seeing as clinicians in psychotherapy.

Alison : Is grief and depression the same thing?

John: So I’m glad you asked, because first of all, the magic and the tragic, my book doesn’t just address grief as in having lost a loved one. It addresses all the adversity and the challenges and the myriad of things that we go through in life. It could be divorce. It could be breakups. It could be faded dreams, um, career disappointments, financial hardship, fallout from natural disasters. And usually when people are in grief, they usually have low mood. They sometimes feel hopeless. They sometimes stop doing things that that give them pleasure. So in answer to your question, yeah, usually when you’re in grief, you have some degree of depression and sometimes some degree of worry too. But I would say depression is probably the most prominent, um, symptom you get.

Alison : Because I just think that So many people I know now, even though you’re right, they have that… They have hope, there is also this underlying sense of, um, of loss. Uh, on so many levels. And I’m wondering, in your book, you talk a lot about, uh, what is, um,  emotional resilience, but also part about, like, this is a part of us, like, this is part of the human condition, and we can’t just…. Can you go into that a little bit for our listeners?

John: Yeah. I mean, the truth is, we all know this, that nobody likes to suffer. Nobody, and rightly so. Why suffer if you don’t have to? But the problem with that and so of course we all avoid it. But the problem with that is that everyone is going to suffer no matter who you are. And so we know that if you avoid suffering, if you push it away, if you push it back and you don’t work through it and deal with it in positive ways, it can get worse for people. So my book focuses more on taking a new approach to your grief. Whatever it is that you’re challenged by and not necessarily try to create joy around it because nobody likes to suffer. But can you dignify it in different ways? Can you find some of the beauty in it, or even some of the, the, um, the aesthetic in it? And that’s what helps people get through it? Um, I learned that when I was going through a difficult time, if I paired beautiful music because music is my aesthetic for the two of you, you may have different aesthetics, and the aesthetic can be anything.

John: It can be your ability to find joy and to find peace and beauty in everyday things. It could be gardening. It could be your commitment to fitness. It could be almost anything. So for me it’s music. So when I found that I paired sometimes even melancholy music with my sad feelings, my feelings changed. And in some way I was reassociated with them with different things. I was reassociateing my grief, with curiosity, with personal growth, and sometimes with spirituality. You know, for a lot of people, spirituality is the way you know, your aesthetic and even music is the way that maybe sometimes God or the universe or or, you know, the divine speaks to you. So people have a strong connection to that. And I was feeling a little of that, too, although I’m not a very religious person or a very spiritual person, but, um, that’s what I was doing. So I was pairing them together, and that was the way to shift it and to create a different, um, orientation around it.

Alison : And that’s interesting because when I was reading your book, I thought you were a spiritual person, because for me, it touched me on so many spiritual levels. So that’s that’s so interesting. And I think too, what I really loved about your book is a lot of times I would stop, like I looked up the Magritte paintings and I looked up the Statue of Melancholy and and I’ve seen them all, but I’ve never taken your spin on it. So for you, the connection of art and healing– do we call this healing or do we call this allowing? Like, what do we call this?

John: I would call it healing because art helps us to experience our feelings in a safe environment. Art opens up my imagination so I’m more open minded about my grief. Art helps me to legitimize my feelings, to validate them in many ways. And let me just go back a minute. I mean, I’m not saying that I’m not spiritual. I’m just saying that I’ve taken the woo out of the woo woo for me, you know, So I’m like there and I’m still an inquiry and I’m still learning, but I’m not where I would like to be with my spirituality. So, um, but I feel I feel glad that you actually looked up the paintings and the sculpture because, um, those are important factors. And we wanted photos of those arts, of those pieces of art in the book, but it didn’t work out that way. So, um, anyway, I appreciate that. So yeah, I would call it healing. I also call it transformation. You know, what’s what’s emotional resilience? I think emotional resilience is not about strength or grit. I think emotional resilience is about finding ways to take my adversity and convert it into thriving.

Alison : Um.

John: That’s sort of the message of the book, because it’s going to be there no matter what.

Jean : Yeah,

Alison : Right.

Jean : That that’s so true. And that’s so, uh, such a universal experience. We’re going to have loss and pain. No matter what. And, uh. And it is how you deal with it. And I love that you offer so many great tools. Um, how to alchemize our pain. And, um.

John: That’s a good word. I like that alchemize the pain. That’s a good one, Jeannie.

Jean :  It reminds me of magic. You know, like, like the magic. And you’re transforming it. And so, John, when you when you sit with someone, someone comes in and has had, a significant loss, let’s say a person has, has passed away. You know, do you, um, do you just allow them to talk about the past, which I said, I love your chapter on nostalgia. Mhm. That you allow that because in my experience it was told stop thinking about the past so much, And so can you talk about that for our listeners?

John: Yeah. Our culture, our culture is very different than other cultures. We seem to be the, you know, be strong and move on culture. Yeah. You know, smile and the smile. You know, smiling. The world smiles with you and cry and you cry alone type of thing.  um, and why that is, I’m not sure, but I guess we’re so individualistic and we always want to appear strong and stoic. And I think that gets in the way of us healing ourselves. So when somebody does come into my office and they’re they’re grieving, I do want them to educate me on how much they miss this person or how much the loss has affected them. That does involve going back and telling stories that involves nostalgia. It involves daydreaming about it. So I do the opposite of that. Yeah, I don’t say, let’s not talk about it. And even if they say I feel really uncomfortable about talking about this particular thing right now, I do give them space and I don’t force them, but I do try to revisit that. I also ask them what their aesthetics are. You know what has worked in the past that gives you joy. And most of the time, because of the loss, they have stopped accessing that aesthetic, which naturally, so, um, means that, you know, they’ve been in so much pain that they’re afraid to go to that, or at least they don’t want to feel guilty that maybe it’s too soon to do that. So I still say access the aesthetics and try to pair that together with the grieving thoughts. It works pretty magically.

Alison : If there’s a resistance. My father died when I was young, and I didn’t want to look at his picture for years. It just it just felt like a knife in me. So then would your recommendation have been to me to do it, or do I trust in my own sort of, you know, repelling idea a bit like what would what would you have suggested at that point?

John: Well, because I’m very process oriented as a therapist, I’m not results oriented. I’m not impatient. I don’t rush people into doing anything. I would certainly give you the time to think about it, and maybe we would approach it in some different way. But and maybe you would never look at the photo again. But there are other ways to remember. Um, I lost a loved one without the photo, but in my heart, I know that there could be such a transformation around that photo that instead of it being something to be afraid of, it could really be something that you hold in high regard, not just the photo, but how you feel about it. You know, I think that’s the important thing about remembering about your grief is that if you can have it appeal to your highest nature, if you can give it that kind of dignity and respect, um, it changes from something that you need to avoid to something that’s actually quite beautiful. There’s actually splendour in the suffering as well too. It’s kind of like when you hear a really sad song, unless you don’t like the song, but if you like the song, it makes you a little bit sad, but in some ways it also makes you happy and it makes you more connected to people. It makes you understand things a little bit better. Maybe it connects you more to the divine and the spiritual. So nothing wrong with feeling that I think that people are afraid of how they feel in remembering somebody. And of course, that makes a lot of sense.

Jean : Right? It reminds me of the preciousness of life. You know that with your father passing. Uh, John, I read you had a sibling that passed when you were younger. I did as well. My husband. Um, it. I think grief drives home this world is temporary. Everything’s precious this time, right now, talking with you, John. Sitting with Allison. This will never happen again. The way this is playing out, and there’s such beauty in that.

Alison : Yeah.

John: Yeah. And maybe, maybe that’s how we learn. Maybe that’s how we maturate. That’s maybe how we, maybe it’s a rite of passage that once these things happen to us and happens to everybody, yeah, we take life more seriously. We live it more to the hilt. We we appreciate more moments. I think it increases the sensitivity of the heart. It makes us feel closer to others. It makes us feel more compassionate to others. But it’s tricky because, as we just discussed about how society is, we can easily be compassionate with others, but we may not be compassionate with ourselves. Yeah. That’s why one of the exercises in there that I love is the one where I ask people to write themselves a sympathy card.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : Your practices are great.  That one in particular.

John: Yeah. So without offering solutions. Without offering answers. It’s not about answers. It’s just giving yourself, which maybe you’re having a hard time doing all of the respect, the kindness, the time, the compassion to talk about how much this loss has affected you and how much you miss this person or this thing that you’re grieving. It’s a really powerful exercise. People always balk at it at first, but once they write it and I have them read it out to me and we read it several times, you know, it starts to sink in that, you know what? I deserve as much compassion about this as anybody else.

Jean : Hmm.

Alison : We interviewed a woman named Doctor Jill Bolte Taylor. Are you familiar with her? And she she she was she was, um, a neuroscientist. And, um, she had a stroke on one side of her brain. And after coming through it and talking about all this, she said that her favorite emotion is grief because it’s the most, um, visceral, based in love and, um, reflects a vulnerability.

John: Oh, that is beautifully said. I hope you write that down for your next book.  Yeah, that was beautifully said.   Yes. I would agree with that. On a personal level, I find grief and sadness to be much more grounding than when I’m anxious about something and spinning about something that hasn’t happened yet. That has too many variables. But the grounding. I know I’ve been through this before. I know if I can get through this sad song, I can get through anything. So it grounds me. But I wanted to mention another thing too that’s important to remember about the book is that there are studies out there called Nano Aesthetics, and these studies are studies that look at how the brain is affected by immersing it in awe and in aesthetics, like things that you love, like music, let’s say, or paintings or anything like that. And what that does is that activates the prefrontal cortex in your brain, which is your higher self? It’s your executive brain. And so when that’s activated, you are more apt to be hopeful about the future. You’re more apt to problem solve. You’re more apt to raise your distress tolerance skills. You’re more apt to be compassionate with other people. So it behooves us to, especially when we are in our darkest moments, it behooves us to try to to again pair and to couple our feelings with things that have  offer us. Because it’s kind of like we’re starting to heal that way.

Alison : Hmm.  Can aesthetics also be considered um, can you also add into that group human connection, or is that a separate thing, do you think?

John: No, absolutely. In fact, I was talking to one of my patients this morning and they said that they’re best aesthetic because they’re they tend to be a lonely person. Uh, they said that their best aesthetic is doing an activity with good conversation, taking a hike, going for a walk, going on the beach and stuff. That is absolutely an aesthetic. The aesthetic is anything that evokes pleasurable feelings in you. Whatever that is, could be a hobby, it could be stamp collecting, whatever that is.

Jean : Right,. John, do you notice a difference in a male, a strong alpha personality versus a feminine more, um, whatever. The opposite of alpha….like like how men move through their grief versus women.

John: Well, it’s going to sound biased for me to say this, um, but, and I don’t like to speak in generalities, but statistics show, research shows. And I’ve seen this, too, that women pass through it a little bit better, a little more easily because it’s a little more accepted. And maybe that’s changing now. But I think that women generally, over the years, have had a little more permission to be vulnerable and to be sad or men assume that they need to be stoic. And I think there’s a little more shame, a little more stigma for them. So perhaps it’s much harder for them to go through it, right? Um, but I think that everybody feels the same kind of pain. I think it’s more about how much you express it and how comfortable you are expressing it. So. Good question Jeanie, i really do feel that men have a harder time with it, but things are changing.

Alison : Yeah,

Jean : I agree with you. I think men nowadays are way more communicative and coming into their heart, you know, and, um, so I just wanted to get your point of view on that and something that I remembered from a class I took a long time ago was, and you write about this in your book is about saying things to yourself like avoid…, don’t always use the absolute. Like, I’ll never get married again. I’ll never be happy again. Can you talk about.

John: Yes. I like that. I’m glad you brought that up. Yeah. I try to steer myself as well as my patients and clients away from absolutes. Like, never, always should and shouldn’t. Um, because they, if you really think about it, that’s kind of a distortion. It’s an irrational statement to say forever about anything. Um, because we just don’t know. So, um, people easily and myself included, go into what I call emotional reasoning. When we are grieving, we start to think that I’m always going to feel this way, or life is always going to feel this lonely and this dull, or I’m always going to feel this pain. And that is simply, we know that that’s not true. But when you’re in it, in the moment, I try to help people respect that that’s the place that they’re in in that moment. But I will point out when they use absolutes around that, because that could make us feel worse. So we just don’t know what’s going to happen. But it’s pretty visceral in the moment. As both of you, I’m sure, have experienced. So no absolutes. Yeah.

Alison : No absolutes. None. Never.  hahah

John: Well, Instead of saying, you know, I should have gone to the gym today instead of going straight home after work, I asked them to replace it with prefer. Like, i would have preferred to have gone to the gym, but I didn’t and I went home. So should and shouldn’t has a little bit of guilt and never and always is just too much finality.

Alison : Right. And the other thing that we were just talking about that I loved and I underlined it a million times, is like the difference between I’m a failure or I just recognized or realized I had a thought saying that I’m a failure. And that is like, that just makes you go….

John: Yes, well well said. Yeah. That creates separation from me having the awareness that I’m having a thought that I’m never going to be the same because my spouse died or my best friend died. You know, I’m saying, oh, John, there goes John again. I’m having that same thought again. So yeah, it’s a great way to to externalize and separate. So I’m glad you pointed that out.

Alison : Yeah. The reframing is wonderful. You do it a couple of times and like that’s why I like my books a wreck because I’m like, I have to remember this. And you also use the word dignity a lot. Can you tell us your personal idea or definition of what dignity is?

John: To me, dignity is, as I said before, holding something in high regard. Dignity is if I feel dignified or I’m giving myself dignity, I am being compassionate with myself. I’m feeling the totality of being human, which means all feelings, good and bad, negative and positive. Dignity is about respect. It’s about giving yourself, you know, the benefit of the doubt, cutting yourself some slack. And if we can do that with our grief, um, you know, we just live a fuller life. We won’t be so afraid of things in the future. Maybe we’ll take more risks. Imagine if you could live your life, um, moving forward from this day on, having the same respect, the same confidence, the same faith in some of the sorrowful as you do with happier times in your life. You know?

Alison : What do you mean by that?

John: Well, I might take more risks. I might not be so afraid to make mistakes. I might not be so afraid of my feelings. You know, we have a lot of confidence in being happy. It makes us feel good. So, yeah, I’d love to be happy, but we we have an aversion to feeling sad. But what if you had faith in the fact that feeling sad isn’t that bad? It’s okay. Maybe I’m giving myself dignity. Maybe I’m being more spiritual when I do that. So, you know, again, giving myself that respect, I think, um, and and connecting it with my aesthetic signifies, glorifies, exalts. You know, if I’m going to feel it, I’m going to make it something great.

Alison : Mm, i love that.

Jean : You’re so embracing of all the human feelings and most conditions. Yeah. It’s your book is really a love letter to yourself.

Alison : And I thought it was going to be sad. Yeah. I thought when I read it I’m like, oh man, do I want to read about…. You know, like, I feel kind of, and it’s honestly to anyone that is that that wants to get it… It’s not sad at all.

Jean : It’s very inspiring,

Alison : Very hopeful.

John: Thank you, thank you. I Jeanie I love that you just said that. It’s kind of like a love letter to oneself and you know you, both of you are probably just like me, and most people are, but I have a hard time sometimes giving myself that kind of love, affection, respect. And I haven’t always been this kind to myself around my feelings. So if it’s a love letter to me, then I hope that the book, when people read it, that they can learn to be kind to themselves about that because there’s so many benefits to that.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : It’s great that you said that.

Jean : Well, I you know, when I, I feel really good reading your book and it brought some tears up to some things that I revisited.

John: Would you feel comfortable saying.

Jean : Yes, I will.  I and you can talk about I don’t know where in your book, but I remember looking back, I think it was in the nostalgia part and feeling… Wow, i wish I didn’t take Alex for granted in him being able to fix everything in our house. I’m going to get emotional. Yeah, because he was so great at taking care of the house. I mean, he he had his career as a game show host, but he also was amazing at fixing things around the house. And I got really spoiled. And now I live on my own and I things go wrong and I’m like, oh my God. Allison, do you know a plumber?  And and I see in the past how I would beat myself up like, oh, why did you take him for granted? And then, you know, your book kind of softened that for me.

John: So thank you for telling me that. And I appreciate you being vulnerable on the podcast. Um, yeah. That’s really, that’s a nice process that you’re going through. I think it’s going to continue to evolve, but that does sound like what people say to me when they have some regrets or some, um, little mental adversity about the past that some of those grievances with ourselves can turn into gratitude later on. Can be transformed into something different, something that I can appreciate much more. So I hope that continues to grow for you that way. Thank you for sharing that.

Jean : Yeah.  Thank you. And John, while we’re talking about that, can you talk about the myth of closure, which was another great chapter?

John: Yeah. I mean, it’s such a funny thing. Closure has so many meanings to it. Um, people talk about closure in their own way, and I think that closure is not the right word. I think maybe people call closure when they start to feel better about something that they’ve been sad about for a long time, but I personally don’t think that there’s ever closure. I think that we always carry the wound with us. We always have the melancholy with us, and that we need that to learn how to live better. We need that to be able to treat others better. We need, as you both mentioned before, we need that to help us to appreciate life a little bit more. And um, so again, it’s not it’s not a word that I use. I never mentioned the word closure, but everybody else does. And everybody looks at closure as a destination. And I really don’t think that after a loss you’re going to reach something. I think you’re always going to be evolving and changing around it.

Alison : I really like that. Um, because you don’t think of closure for happiness?

John: No,

Alison : I need closure. I need closure in this joy. I really got to get through. And I thought to myself, you’ve totally in the book, uh, made me rethink the judgment that I put on some emotions.

John: Yeah, right. You can close a deal. You can sign on the dotted line and buy a house. But, you know, we are human beings. Um, we work a little bit differently, and we all process oriented. It takes time. We have to traverse. So it’s never about, you know, it’s time to move on. It’s about moving through. What’s the quality of my moving through? Um, I’m going to move through it better if I can dignify my pain. That’s why I always tell people, you know, one of the best things you can do for yourself, the highest form of self-care is to find ways to give yourself goosebumps, to find ways to give yourself uplifting chills as often as possible. And that goes through your aesthetics. Or it could also be through a memory, Jean,  that you were talking about. It can be looking at good times,  i’m sorry, I mean thinking about good times and looking at fun photos. All of that stuff is important. So the chills, as I mentioned before with the nano aesthetics are very important for your well-being. It’s like food for your brain.

Alison : And for you it’s music, classical music?

John: That’s one of them. I have many aesthetics, you know, I like helping people. I like good conversation, like we’re having right now. Time stops for me, and I’m just, you know, um, sharing this wonderful moment with the three of you, with the two of you. Um, so I have many. But music, for some reason, ever since I was a little kid, has always affected me that way. Not all music, certain music. I don’t work with certain genres, but, um, for most of them, I can find something beautiful in that.

Alison : Yeah, I, I I’m a big classical music music listener. I don’t know much about it, but I have it in my car or in my home all the time. And so when I played your, um, Beethoven fifth Concerto, I think it is right?

John: Yes.

Alison : Wow. I’ve heard that so many times. And it really does bring me, um, and I didn’t know even that’s what it was… But I love that. And I’ve heard it so, so many times. So that’s a great, a great thing in the book to keep having us learn.

John: Right, exactly… and remember, your aesthetic might be different than somebody else’s. So it’s it’s always being at cause, not at effect. I’m always taking the action to do that. I don’t believe that happiness or even being able to find beauty in my grief, it doesn’t knock on the door. I have to create it each day because for the most part, grief if it comes out and manifests as depression, it’s always telling you, stay in bed. Don’t talk to anybody. Don’t bother with it. What’s the point? You’re never going to get better. And those are real thoughts and real feelings. And we can’t just snap our fingers and make that go away. So I try to, you know, introduce being at cause and doing things like that. So if that piece works for you I would continue doing it and see what happens.

Alison : Yeah.  And I, I like when you talk about inch by inch, you did it with the person with OCD. And I thought, well, there’s a perfect thing-  if I don’t have to go and run a marathon. I can walk around my block.

John: Yes.

Alison : You know, “Inch by inch” do you know?

John:  What’s the old saying? “Inch by inch is a cinch, and mile by mile is a trial.” Something like.

Jean :  that’s a great one.

Alison : That’s great. Yeah. That’s excellent.

Jean : Yeah. And I think you also say John, i’m totally not going to say it as you wrote it, but but that conscious creation is what is really so, so fabulous about being human. You know that we can feel a little low, i feel like I don’t want to go to that meeting today, and then you can,  you have your bag of tools to– i’m going to walk in nature. I’ll listen to music. You know, you’re consciously raising your vibration.

John: That’s right. And continuing to…. Yes, raising your vibration and also cutting yourself some slack and remembering that I’m feeling sad now, but nothing’s wrong. You know?  Everything is fine. This is so part of life that I have to go through. And the more respect I give it, the better I’m going to feel. So the more I dignify it in the process, the more I reduce it. But I like that. Raising your vibration. Opening up your awareness. Um, and again, I think that accessing the aesthetic, especially in your darkest moments, opens up this portal of inspiration that starts to create a conversion, starts to create a transformation in that.

Alison : At the end of the chapters, you have these pages that allow us to really take a deep dive into ourselves. What are some of your favorites? Like, what do you do… You personally?

John: I like the first one, which is if people are really in a dark place, I will say the next time, tomorrow, tonight, whenever, the next time you hear a song that you love, whether it’s the words or the chords or whatever, I want you to write down five adjectives as to why you like that song, what it’s about, what does it it conjure up from the past? The same thing with a sunset or a painting or something that you’ve been doing. An activity that you love. In other words, document why you’re feeling either inspired or slightly happier. Or maybe it’s even making you a little sadder, but anything that stimulates emotion to log it in. So I think in that first chapter I have,  do that with a movie, a passage in a book, a song and a place in nature. So those four.  If people are thinking about that during the week, it’s not a magic pill. It’s not going to like make you feel better instantly. But you’re starting to introduce a different way of thinking, a different way of relating to the world and finding those beautiful things there because they are there. But we have to do we have to be deliberate and create intention to do that.

Alison : It’s the documenting that I think is so crucial and something so interesting  like, I think that’s great. Were you going to say something?

Jean : No, it’s just as you’re talking… It just reminds me how important it is to to choose what we focus on.

Alison : Mhm.

Jean : And at the same time allow, allow that that sadness and the, you know, so it’s, you know, you don’t want a spiritual bypass your, your feelings like oh I feel sad, i’m not going to I’m going to resist it, and you know, get myself so busy that I’m not dealing with my feelings.

John: Right. No. Right. That would be unhealthy distraction. That would be, um, pushing it or sweeping it under the carpet. Right. We’re not talking about that.

Jean : Exactly.

John: Exactly. So good point to that.

Jean : Substances and, you know alcohol.

John: That’s right. You know how a lot of people say, I might say to somebody, wow, You’ve really stood up to this.  You’ve been, um, tough, you’ve been strong, whatever, i might say that to somebody. And a lot of people say, well, I had no choice. And I think, you know, you do have a choice. Some people don’t do what the three of us are talking about. Some people do turn to drugs and alcohol. Some people give up. Some people detach from their routines and their responsibilities and and stop doing, you know, the things that we’re talking about looking for beauty, looking for, um, um, support from others and reaching out. So we do have a choice and not everybody does that. And I, I hope that there aren’t too many that don’t. But, um, you know, I do my best to try to reach out to those people as much as I can, because not everybody starts out in therapy with a lot of hopefulness. Sometimes they say, well, somebody told me that I should do therapy, or I’m feeling so awful that I couldn’t feel any worse. So let’s talk. So I get all kinds of stuff, but most of the time, um, people start to, you know, again, transfer, um, those feelings to a different place. And usually it’s a better place.

Alison : Your friends must love you…honestly…

John: Oh, i hope so.

Alison : Beaucause like, you’re just such a, you’re very, um…. I would love to hang out with you because there are some times, like, we’re with our friends, and what’s great about our friends is that sometimes we’ll, like, just allow, just allow and talk through. And you must be the same way, like with your pals. Just be like, how are you doing? And not try to skirt around it, which I think is just such what we so need right now.

John: Well said. Yeah, I’m as curious with them as I try to be with myself, you know? What is it about? Why does that song make me feel wistful? What is it about wistful or sad or happy or nostalgic? And then when I really look into that much, much more closely, I learned more about myself. I remember things that maybe I forgot or that I was afraid to remember. So what I always tell people is, if you’re afraid of a photo or you’re afraid of something, that to me indicates that you really need to talk about it and in a safe place. And it may not be today, it may be in the future, but it would be a good thing to do that. You know, I have old videotape of my mom that, um, for years I have kept as a VHS, and I finally transferred it into a file, which I can watch on my computer because you can’t even transfer it on a DVD now because computers don’t have it. So times have changed, and it’s been hard for me to to not watch it over the years. Um, but in other ways, I felt like I didn’t want to because that was a way for me to feel safe. So I did watch it and it was a little bit sad in the beginning, but I don’t feel that same kind of initial fear when I watch it now.

Jean : In your book, you attribute to her that she was the kindest person you knew.

John: She was.

Jean : Lovely.

John: She was. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, she and my father passed 21 years ago, and it’s been a really long time. But there are some days when it feels like it was six months ago.

Jean : Yes.

John: You know, especially when I wake up in the morning and I’ve had a couple of dreams and I feel a little bit anxious. And sometimes in the morning my defenses are down. Um, but yeah, I think the good qualities emotionally that I got from from my parents came from my mom. And I think the good qualities of, of finding my aesthetics came from my father because he, you know, we traveled the world, we lived in Europe. He took us to ruins and museums and was always playing us music and forced us to learn these things. So I got a good balance from both of them.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : You did.

Alison : I think that’s great. And I think that what you just said about, um, feeling like sometimes the morning, you feel like you’re a little bit anxious. I think that’s so interesting because I think a lot of people have that sort of sense of like, maybe you’re being open or vulnerable and, you know, and I think it’s wonderful that you, I think that’s wonderful that you share so much and that you are open to letting people peek in a little bit. I really respect that.

John: Thank you. Yeah. So in the morning the stress hormone cortisol is much higher. Again like I said our defenses are down. So, um, I don’t have great mornings. Um, once I get up again, you know, be at cause not the effect. Once I get up, I shower. I look at my notes for the day. Or if I’m writing something new, I read over what I wrote last night. Then it gets… I get some things going and I’m much more grounded. And I kind of, like, balance myself out. But, um. Yeah, that’s when I remember the sad most in the morning. Um, and then I’m not, um, comfortable with it yet. Uh, until I start to move around and I start to remember all the good things in my life. So, um, I try to be as transparent as possible. And Socrates said, you know, “wisdom begins in wonder.” So I’m wondering I’m curious about my grief all the time, as opposed to wanting to run from it.

Alison : Um, curiosity that comes up in a lot of our interviews as being such an important, you know, such an important part of life.

John: It is. I don’t remember who said it, but one of those famous gurus, maybe it was the Dalai Lama, or maybe it was Deepak Chopra, but one of those big cheeses, when they asked when they asked them what their religion was, one of them said, “inquiry, compassion and tolerance.” And what stuck in my head was the inquiry. You know, always wondering, always trying to not necessarily being comfortable with answers because it’s not about answers, it’s about always evolving and growing. So that stuck with me. Now, now I’m going to look it up and see who said that.

Alison :  yes…that’s a great quote.

Jean : I do the same thing, John…and you have so many great quotes in here.

Alison : Yes. Thank you so much for writing this.

Jean : Yeah. We we are so grateful that you are on our team of sharing the good. And this book is certainly very, very good.

John: Thank you. I appreciate you two reading it. By the way, what city are you both in?

Jean : Studio city.

John: Oh, you’re in Los Angeles.

John: All right, well, I’ll take you both up on one day. We have coffee and we continue the conversation.

Alison : Oh, we would love that.

Jean : But before we let you go, we have two questions.

Alison : What do you think insidewink means?

John: I remember, Yeah. Um, so I thought about it for a while, and I think that for a lot of people, it means a lot of different things. And for me, it means different things to-  to me, an inside wink can be a gesture of affection. It can be, um, you know, signifying or signaling warmth to somebody. Um, it could be a shared secret, um, shared knowledge that we all have that we’re having a really nice conversation amongst ourselves. So I see it as something positive.

Alison : Oh, good. Great. That’s perfect. We love that…and –

Jean : Do you prefer cake, pie or ice cream?

John: I will answer that, but I’m curious to know why you ask. But I will say pie. Pie is my favorite.

Jean : Another pie!

Alison : I know person pie. The numbers are going up, John.

John: So tell us why. Tell me why. Why that question? Well, why both questions?

Jean : We love dessert. And we just…

Alison : Period.

Jean : End up scene, end of conversation. We love dessert. And we just thought it would be a really fun way to end the conversation, because it’s so probably not what people ask you.

Alison : And it’s so funny to see people change. Like, we’ll talk about people. We’ll be talking very seriously, and then we’ll say that and they’re like, well.. If I have to choose, and like almost a childlike thing comes out, which is so…

John: So when you said, oh, that’s another pie… Is that the most popular answer or is it cake?

Alison : It’s getting there.

Jean : I think pie is really popular.

Alison : Yeah, I think pie is popular. And pie with ice cream. That’s a big one.  Some people like, want the turducken of all three. Do you know – they really… But it’s so funny, people are so sweet about people talk about their grandmothers. People talk about a pastry shop, you know….

Jean :  a spouce that makes their favorite cake…

Alison : It’s a sweet thing that people just seem to enjoy. And so we just like to see that side of people.

John: That’s good, I like that. That’s a great way to end the podcast.

Jean : Yeah, yeah.

Alison : Well thank you so, so so much. You were just wonderful.

Jean : You are – what a blessing you are.

John: Thank you , Thank you so much for having me, and again, thanks for reading the book. And thank you for, you know, forming your questions so detailed about the book and the exercises and stuff. Made me feel good that it touched you. So it touches me as well I appreciate that.

Jean : Thank you. John.

Alison : Have a beautiful day.

John: You too.

Jean : That was great.

John: He’s excellent, isn’t he?

Jean : Yeah. He was really fun.

Alison : And I felt like a real conversation. I liked when he would say, well, why do you ask this? Or what did you think about that? Or would you be willing to share.

Jean : When? When he asked me. About what? Um. You know what? Something. When I was talking about, um, thinking back on my relationship with Alex and feeling like I took him for granted in certain ways, I was… I got that was like, yeah, uh, that really touched me. And, um, again, his book is so beautiful, and I think he also, well, I know he gives beautiful practices to take take the, uh, the readings deeper into your own life.

Alison : Right. And, and I think everyone I’m going to have, I’m going to keep this book, like, for the kids, because I think it’s just a great book to have…” The magic and the tragic” and I, I, um, I really respect that he wrote this, and I think it’s really interesting he wrote it over Covid. What an interesting time we all lived through. When you think back of Covid, right? Yeah. Like we read collectively as humanities really something and some, some interesting things came out of it for people. And I just really respect him. And I really enjoyed him.

Jean : Yes, me too.

Alison : So we hope. We hope, we hope you got something out of the podcast. And if you would like to- “The Magic In The Tragic” by John Tsilimparis, MFT. is really just, um.

Jean : Wonderful.

Alison : Yeah, yeah, very very good.

Jean : Well written. And, uh, I don’t know, we could go on and on, but we’ll we’ll end it there.

Alison : I’m going to go and get Macaroni and cheese.

Jean : Okay.

Alison : Macaroni and cheese is calling my name. That’s my magic. hahah

Alison : Bye.

Jean : Bye.