Transcript
Alison : Oh, I love her. She wrote a fantastic book, “From both sides of the curtain. Lessons and Reflections from an Oncologist’s Personal Breast Cancer Journey.”
Jean : That is the book we are talking about with the author, Sue, Dr. Sue Wang.
Jean : I love her writing.
Alison : Yeah,
Jean : I think she’s an excellent writer.
Jean : And…
Alison : What?
Jean : and I love that she opened up about her journey.
Alison : She’s very vulnerable. And, you know, I think I think being open and sort of telling you like she’s not perfect going through this journey, which I’d like to talk to her about, she sort of like, you know, I’m doing my best. We’re all doing our best. And I, I, you know, it sort of read like a novel to me.
Jean : Oh, I can see that.
Alison : It moved along.
Jean : I can see that. Yeah. That’s what I meant. That I thought she was an excellent writer. Not only is she a wonderful oncologist, but she’s a mom, and she’s an author now, and she’s got a lot on her plate. But I too, um, I love that she took the time to to pen her journey. And I know it will benefit so many people.
Alison : Sometimes when you say things, I just want to scream and hug you. Pen her journey —you’re like, sometimes you’re just so like, it sounds like we’re like an old England.
Jean : This is Emily Bronte’s…
Alison : Emily Bronte’s take on from both sides of the curtain. Are you ready? We’re going to do it right now with her.
Jean : Yeah. We better get downstairs.
Alison : All right. we’ll be back….
Jean : out of my closet and into my garage.
Alison : Now we have the best tour of Jean’s house. All right. Bye. See you in a minute.
Alison : Hi.
Sue: How are you?
Alison : We’re good. We loved your book.
Sue: Oh. Thank you. That means so much. It’s the first time I ever did anything like that. And, uh, it’s, uh. It was a little bit scary after I wrote it, and I submitted it, and then I remember thinking, what did I just do? Yeah. So I appreciate any feedback that is positive. So you don’t well, you don’t feel like you threw it all out there.
Jean : We both really thought we thought not only is she a great doctor, but you are a beautiful writer. Yeah. The way you expressed yourself and all the personal details. Really- uh, Alison was telling me it read like a novel. It it was beautiful.
Sue: Thank you so much.
Alison : I bet it was scary. How long did it take you?
Sue: Um, well, so I’ve never, um, I’m actually not a writer by trade at all. Like I was one of those kids um, I was very science and math oriented. Did not like English at all. Um, so I honestly, I really had no idea how long a book should take to write. So, um, but I had the basics of that book out in about two, three months. Um, and then I ended up tweaking, um, I spent actually all of last summer traveling the country with my son who was playing baseball. And there’s a lot of downtime. And during all that downtime, either sitting in the car or sitting in a hotel lobby or just, you know, just waiting for rain delays, I would just get online and start tweaking the book to, um, to make it sound more like, uh, you know, to make it sound more like me and make it more readable. Um, but yeah, I think all in, um, you know, the outline was October and then three months to put the base and then three months to tweak. So.
Alison : Wow, it’s so great. You know, we read a lot of books for these interviews. And normally I do okay, I have two weeks. I’m going to read 20 pages at a time. And this the first 137 pages, I’m like, oh, oh, then what? Oh, so it was it was it was great. Like really? You did an excellent, excellent job. Congratulations.
Sue: Thank you.
Jean : Yeah, yeah. And and for me, I was comparing your journey or not, I shouldn’t say comparing, but I was relating it to what my husband went through. And so much of what you wrote was what my husband experienced. The just, the just get in, do it. But I don’t want to get ahead of myself right now. So. So, um, anyway, thank you for being with us today.
Alison : And, and I think the biggest thing that we were both talking about is your vulnerability in this story, that it’s not a perfect journey. You’re not a perfect person. Um, you have, you know, you have kids, things get a little bit messy at times. How, how did that feel to be that vulnerable?
Sue: Oh it’s terrifying. I mean, you you have to understand from the person I was before, the diagnosis is totally different than the person I am now. I was very shy, I was guarded, but I really did my best to kind of let everyone know, like, I have my life under control. Like, even though it was under control. But it just, I felt like a chicken with my head cut off on most days. But still I give the impression like I am in total control. I can do anything that like that the world throws at me. And then, you know, then you get this diagnosis and you are faced with your own mortality and you start to wonder about the bigger picture, and you wonder about how are you going to make a difference? How can you make things better for other people? And I, I realized that when I went through this, a lot of people really, um, they really wanted to know my journey because, because this is what I do every day of my life. And just my perspective on things were just different than the average patient. Um, and because I just got so many questions about it, that’s when I said, you know, I, I think I have a story here and I think a lot of this would, this would help patients know they’re not alone. Because I think when you’re a patient, you get diagnosed and you don’t have the medical knowledge I have, then all of a sudden you’re totally overwhelmed because doctors are in terms at you and you’re just kind of like, okay, like, you know, Right? Yeah, yeah. But you have you have no idea what half of what they’re saying to you is.
Sue: So I want patients to know like, hey, I do this every day of my life. And I still was terrified and I still was uncertain. Um, and then for, you know, the other reason I wanted to wright the book was because I think as doctors and it’s hard to be a doctor these days, you know, there’s so much information coming at us. You’re dealing with a lot of misinformation from patients. You’re dealing with insurance companies, you’re dealing with hospital requirements you’re dealing with… It’s just it’s a hard profession. Like, this is not what I became a doctor for, this was not what I thought. Like I did not think this was how it was going to be. Um, but as you try to navigate being a doctor and trying to be a good doctor, you, you do lose, um, a sense of like the patient, right? Like your goal is to treat the disease, treat the disease, get rid of the disease. If the disease is gone and you know, you know, check one for us, but you have to remember the patient through all of this. And that was the other reason that I wanted to also share this. As scary as it was to just throw it all out there. I did want doctors that were reading it to know like, oh, this is a good reminder, like, this is all about the patient, you know, and, and we have to kind of, we have to calm that noise from everything else and, and focus back on what really matters, which is really the patient.
Jean : right. Do you consider that like when you say that the bedside manner of your profession?
Sue: Yeah. You know, bedside manner is um, so I’ll be honest, I think just because you have an MD does not necessarily mean that you’re going to have like a great, uh, personality. Um, and bedside manner is something where it, it really is the art of medicine where you are learning how to communicate extremely complicated information to someone that does not have the medical background while also coming across as compassionate and empathetic. Um, and, and when you ask me what is good bedside manner, that’s kind of how I would sum it up, but I think it’s, it’s something that, um, it’s hard to teach. I think you really have to kind of understand it from the other side to really get a sense of like, what is good bedside manner. Um, and I know a lot of doctors, they get their bedside manner from having family members that have gone through health crises. And then when they are kind of in the thick of it with their family members and see how their family members are treated, and then that kind of reframes it for, okay, I didn’t like how my family member was treated. Um, and this is what I need to do in order to, to give the patients I treat, um, a better experience – but bedside manner is tricky. You know, I, when you go to medical school, it really is just didactic, like it’s learning how you learn how the body works. Then you learn what the body is, what you learn how what a normal body is, and then you learn what a abnormal body is like. That’s kind of how they break down our lectures. Um, and then third and fourth year, you’re literally just thrown on the floor and then you just follow other doctors and around. Um, but when and I trained in 2000, so it was 20 years ago now and back then there was not a lot of emphasis on, um, how do you talk to a patient? How do you break bad news? Now, thankfully it’s coming into the curriculum. Um, but you know, when I was in training, that’s just not something that we focused on.
Alison : You know, I think too, uh, this book, even though your journey is with breast cancer, I think this book appeals to anyone because we’ve all been through trauma and how you dealt with like, like it made me think about, um, for me, the biggest, the biggest thing that happened to me when I was younger was my father literally died when I was 21. Like a little bit like what you experienced with your, the father of your children. And, um, I thought it was very interesting how you moved from getting your diagnosis to that lovely scene at the end where you’re watching the sunset on the baseball field. Do you know? Because I think we’ve all felt that. Could you just describe that a little bit? How you moved from like, really fear in the first half of the book to that?
Sue: So how you get from one to the other first, it comes from, um, accepting your vulnerability. Right. Um, and kind of knowing that things are going to happen. Uh, and you can either have it happen to you, or you can try to turn the situation around and control what you can control. And I think being able to do that is really what took me from I’m going to die, like I’m so scared i’m going to die to – okay i mean, let’s be honest, we’re all going to die, right? But while I’m here, I want to make a positive impact, and I want to appreciate everything that is around me right now. Like I can’t live in that fear. You know, it’s interesting… Like, so today my oldest turns 18 and he’s getting ready to go off to college. And, um, over this past weekend, I kind of had that same moment of fear where I had this realization like, this is the last birthday I will spend with him probably for four years. You know, because he wants to go to med school and residency and all that stuff. And I know how it works. I’m like, oh my, this is this is it. Like, this is it, he’s gone. And then all of a sudden, I got so consumed with fear that he was never going to come back to me. Um, and he, he just said to me, he’s like, mom, just stop. Like she was like, just stop. You know, like it’s going to be okay. And then once I was reassured, once he reassured me like, okay, I am coming back- it’s just because I’m 18 doesn’t mean I’m leaving forever. Then I was able to now like, okay, now everything I do with him just is that much more special.
Sue: Like, you know, I this morning and I’ve never been a balloon person, but I put balloons in his room. I put a Paw Patrol balloon in his car and he woke up and he was like, what is this? And I’m like, I don’t know, I’m just trying to appreciate the moment. You know, I’m living in the moment and I want to remember all of this. I want to remember everything that I do with you right now. Um, but you know, it’s very similar. That was, and what I did with him was just very similar to, I think, how I was able to go from fear to, wow, look at that sunset- you know, like, look, look at the sky. And I can’t tell you how many times I sit in the outfield and just I don’t even know what I’m looking at. And I just remember that day. It was just, it was orange and yellow and it was just glowing. And I just remember thinking, this is magical, you know, something so ordinary is magical. And I think that’s also kind of what this whole experience taught me is there’s, I go back to this noise, right? There’s, there’s so much noise in this world right now and there’s so much noise about like what is defined as an exceptional experience or an extraordinary experience. And I find that like, I don’t need to go traveling around the world and like, I don’t really even need to leave my house to find an extraordinary experience. Like there’s just extraordinary and just, you know, being home with your kids and being together and, you know, like, I just appreciate the simple things and the simple things drive me right now.
Jean : Oh, that’s so, so beautiful. That’s so, that’s so powerful. And, and Allison and I, again, before you got on, we were talking about that. And, um, yeah, it is the simple things in life. And so, so your journey from being a very intellectual woman into like, into your feeling more into your heart and, and, um, and so you, you talk about your community that was very important. Can you, can you share a little bit about how you, how, how your community of friends came around you to support you?
Sue: So they, they were incredible. Um, and actually, uh, I always had them around me even before my diagnosis. I just never leaned into them. Um, I think when you were used to being hyper independent, the thought of having to rely on someone else, um, is what’s the word I’m looking for? Having to rely on someone else’s, like, oh, I, I want to, I want to say it’s like a weakness, right? Like, oh, I can’t do it myself. I need to ask for help. Um, and that’s just not how I was raised. And then when you get sick, you know, and like right after the mastectomies, you can’t move, you know, and then all of a sudden, like the day after my mastectomies, I mean, it looked like I was having a party in my house because my closest friends all came over and they all got in the kitchen and they made dinner for my kids that night, and then for the rest of the week. And then, you know, I was sitting, I remember I was sitting in the recliner in my room and they were like, hey, you should come out and sit with us. And I was also like half drugged up at this point as well. Um, and they like, they like assemble my recliner, move it into the kitchen. Um, so I can sit there with them while they’re all cooking and everyone’s, you know, my kids are coming in and out and for my kids, really the biggest thing for the kids is you want to maintain normalcy and to have them there when I am totally incapable of doing anything, but to still have my kitchen active and have people in there and to hear laughter. I mean, that that to me was a testament to how amazing my community is because they didn’t want my kids to miss a beat.
Sue: They didn’t want my kids to feel like, um, they were alone. Um, so they really rallied. And then even like the meal train, they said, hey, we’re going to start a meal, train. I mean, as soon as I got diagnosed, we’re going to do a meal train. And I’m like, I don’t need a meal train. I’m going to Uber Eats like. And it really and it also it was more of that mentality of like, well, I can’t afford to buy my food, right? Like I can afford to Uber Eats, I can, I can afford to take care of my kids. And that’s how I looked at it. And then once I was recovering and I realized it’s not really about what you can afford. It’s about when people send these meals like they’re sending their thoughts, they’re sending their love, they’re sending an act that they care. And, um, when you are just down and out like those meals, like you can feel like the support. And that’s what I like. It’s interesting how I was looking at it, right? First I was looking at it from, oh, I don’t need it. Like I can’t afford it. But then it was like, wait, no, this is them supporting me. And I could, um, and that also helped me heal, like knowing that they had my back. Um, so I had an incredible community. I mean, they actually had to extend the meal train because so many people kept wanting to bring food. So I’m just I’m so lucky. I’m so lucky. My kids are so lucky as well.
Alison : You know, it’s an honor to be on the other side of it, to be the one doing the meal. I think like I, a friend of mine had breast cancer, and I was honored to be able to go to all the appointments and sort of be a comrade through a lot of it. And I have to say, it felt like an honor because you’re really, uh, the other person’s allowing you to love them. And I think we’re living in a world now where we’re there. Uh, that might be more challenging like, than it was when my grandmother was living in a different type of community. Do you know what I mean?
Sue: Yeah, I think, I think right now we’re living in pretty lonely world…and it’s interesting, I talked to patients and when patients ask about my journey and I share it and a lot of them say, you’re so lucky to have so many people around you. I don’t have anyone, um, or like, um, I have an Instagram page and I did a, I did a reel about, um, my support, you know, I said, I don’t remember how it began, but essentially what I was saying is like, when you are really feeling down, this is when you need to lean into your community, you know, they have your back, you will have theirs. Like that’s just how it works. And the replies were interesting. Like the messages I got, like, it was actually one of my reels that like, I was like, oh, maybe I should take this down because some of the feedback was like, I don’t have anyone. Like, you’re lucky you have someone. I have no one… And it was, you know, my intention was not to make people, like my intention was not to show people how much I have, right, the point of that real was really just to say, look, like you, you have to lean into other people to to heal. Well. Um, and it just made me so sad that so many people out there were just saying, I’m alone and then, you know, and then from there, I was like, okay, well, let’s look at resources now. You know, the next thing I have to do is I need to get resources out for people that feel alone.
Sue: But you’re right, it is a lonely world. And I think especially nowadays, it’s more lonely just because, you know, simple things like meetings, right? All our meetings are over Zoom or over, um, you know, over the phone and you don’t even know the people are paying attention half the time. Um, but versus before, like when I, before Covid, I remember I had to get my butt down to the main hospital to sit with 20 other doctors to talk about our group practice, you know, and then after Covid, it’s like, okay, let’s all just do it on the computer, which is great. It’s convenient, but there is something about sitting across the room from someone that you don’t know very well. And while you’re waiting for the meeting to start, you got to shoot the…. You know, you just you just got to like start small conversation. And I feel like it’s from those small conversations that sometimes you build the greatest friendships and we don’t have that. No. Um, so it’s, it’s, it’s unfortunate because I do think in a day and age when we are getting sicker and more people are getting cancer and we’re trying to support them through that, but we don’t have a, we, they don’t have that that built in community that they feel like they can rely on. Um, and I don’t, I don’t know what the answer is. I just, I just, I just know it’s a problem.
Alison : Yeah. I think that’s so right though. That’s so interesting though, that that was the feedback from that…. Yeah. I would have thought like.
Sue: I really like this reel. This is so great. And then it was like, yeah, no, not that one.
Alison : Exactly. Exactly right.
Jean : That’s so true. I mean, what a journey. Certainly, um, the shift in your perception about so many things really, um, have grown you as a soul and as a woman. But I also, and, and I thought it was you articulated beautifully in your book and you give a lot of time to it about losing your hair, that it’s not like a vanity thing. And my friend, um, my girlfriend went through also pancreatic cancer. Uh, Lori and she, she had lost her hair. And I remember before she lost her hair, she was getting ready for chemo. I was going to say, well, it grows back. And something was like, don’t say that because would I like to hear that if that was me. Right? And I like you,you know, I, like, have long hair, and it would be a thing, and I… So can you talk about that part of your journey?
Sue: Yeah, I think, um, so I tried like, I, I really tried to do everything to prevent the hair loss, like the cold capping and, and also, um, if I’ll be honest, if I, if the cold capping was successful, it’s interesting if cold capping was successful, i don’t know whether I would have been as open about what was going on. Um, and it’s because when people look at me like before, right? Like they’ve known me for my, like, if you ask people to describe me, they would always just say, she has a really great head of hair. You know, like, um, and when all of a sudden it’s not there anymore, that’s when you look sick. Um, and if I didn’t look sick, I don’t think I would have, um, If I didn’t look sick, I don’t think I’d actually be sitting here talking to you right now because I would have had hide it. I, I would have just been, I would have been that person that said, I can handle anything. I can handle this cancer. I don’t look any different. No one’s going to know, no one’s going to treat me any different. So I’m just going to keep going down this road of like independent Sue. And then when you lose your hair, right, all of a sudden it’s like, okay, you definitely look sick. Like you can’t even go out without people staring at you. Because even when you wear a hat, like you clearly are wearing a hat because you don’t have any hair. And because I knew people were going to perceive me that way, that’s when I said, okay, I’m just going to be a little bit more public about this.
Sue: But as we talk about like this whole journey, like… When you go through something like breast cancer, and while most women can preserve their breasts, it wasn’t an option for me, right? first the cancer took away my breasts, and even though I was able to get reconstructed to look like I have breasts, the fact is, they’re not my breasts. Um, and then also because I was hormone receptor positive and I didn’t, I just made the decision, you know, take out the ovaries. And then I said to the surgeon, well, if you’re down there taking out the ovaries, just take out the uterus. I mean, I don’t need that anymore either. So, but like, I joke about that, but you know, it’s like, okay, so breasts are gone. Um, ovaries and uterus are gone. And I, I get it like the ovaries and uterus are gone by my choice, but they’re gone, right? So then I’m like, okay, um, pretty much most of the things that define me as a woman are gone. And then all of a sudden the hair goes right and you don’t like, I just feel like with women, I’ve heard like your hair and your hair is your power, right? Like some cultures, like your hair is your power. And then all of a sudden I was like, oh, that’s, that’s gone, you know? Um, and when you don’t have. And in some ways I feel like maybe I was hiding behind it, right? Like I was hiding behind my hair. Because when you have a really good head of hair, like I just think people perceive you differently. And then when you don’t and you come across differently, you really have to think to yourself, like, who are you as a person? Like, why is this hair such a big deal? Like, you know, and like you said, it’s not, it’s initially you think it’s a vanity thing, like on the superficial level, it’s all about vanity…
Sue: But then when you actually dig down deep, you’re like, wait, it’s not about vanity. It’s just, it’s about the fact that it represents total loss of control to this disease that, you know, that just kind of came out of left field and took everything away from you. Um, so it, it, it certainly was a reckoning, um, reckoning with, with having to deal with the hair loss. But as you know, the interesting thing is as it grows back, you’re, you, I mean, right before I was sitting down to talk to you, I was like going to straighten my hair because it goes in all different directions now. And I was like, well, like, it’s really long, you know, like in two years, like it’s making a comeback. And I actually did the extension thing, but that, that it’s weird to have extensions. So I took those out pretty quickly. Um, but now that it’s come back, it’s like, yeah, you know, it’s interesting because I’m regaining my look back, but I am just a completely different person on the inside with a completely different perspective. And, um, so now even though I look the same, like I looked how I looked two years ago, like I’m totally not the same person. And, um, it’s just a weird transformation. It’s a very different transformation.
Alison : And like, so all of this, um, when did you actually go through your journey? When did, when was that actually, was it.
Sue: Two years ago? Two years ago. Yeah.
Alison : So now that. So now here you are. Right. You’re still. First of all, your dog is really cute.
Sue: And I’m hoping my kid just open the door to let him out. And he didn’t open the door and let him out.
Alison : I loved your dogs in the book. Yes, I love, first of all. So he’s like a celebrity when he was on the couch to me. Um, so when um. Now how how are you moving now? Like, are you are you feeling, uh, strong? Do you still have the awareness of every pain? Do you like where where are you like today?
Sue: I’m very aware. I’m very aware that I went through breast cancer treatment even two years out. Um, so, uh, just an example this afternoon, I, you know, I had to pick my kid up, took him to the trainers, went shopping, and then sat in the car waiting for him. And then we get out of the car when we get home and he’s like, why are you limping? And I’m like, I’m like, I was just sitting in the car for three hours, kid. Like, you got to give my bones a little time to adjust, you know? And he’s like, okay, is there anything I can do? Like, you don’t look okay? And I’m like, it’s okay. Just give me a minute and then I will stop limping, you know? But like, it’s like examples like that where this treatment, even though and I’m still on maintenance treatment, which a lot of breast cancer patients are on, which is essentially a pill that takes away your hormones, um, which is also why some of my symptoms really still persist and which is also why breast cancer survivors, um, need so much more support than they actually get. Um, but like, I am still acutely aware of the treatment just because like the aches, the pains, the hot flashes, um, and then, you know, also you’re weaker, like you feel weaker. Um, and a lot of it is, you know, and I think I’m fortunate because right now we’re on a day and age with women’s health, where a lot of attention is being put on how to get women, how to get post-menopausal women healthy again.
Sue: You know, like for the longest time, like we have been doing a great job of educating doctors and patients on how to take care of post-menopausal body. And now, thankfully, we’re getting this huge push of awareness on these are the things you do, these are the things you eat. This is the type of exercise you need to do. So we’re getting really specific instructions on how to actually thrive when you don’t have estrogen. So whether it’s natural menopause or whether it’s medical menopause, uh, I’m, I consider myself extremely fortunate to have gotten this disease in an age where there is progress being made on how do you make patients feel better? Um, but it’s a, it’s still a long road. I mean, it’s like every day you have to do something just to keep your body moving and to kind of just keep yourself healthy. So it is almost like this constant reminder. And I’ll be honest, I think the, um, most sobering part of this diagnosis for me was realizing that the hardest part is actually the survivorship. Like the treatment actually, to me, I just kind of blew through. You know, it’s like, because you and I’ve heard patients say this to me and I never quite understood it, but like when you’re going through treatment, you have purpose. You have a plan, you have constant surveillance by your doctors, you know where you’re going and like, you’re just so focused on what you are doing, right? And then all of a sudden you get through treatment and then it’s like, ring the bell, everyone’s celebrating. And meanwhile you’re kind of like, what am I celebrating? Like, you know, everyone around… I rang the bell because like, they had a party, so I had to ring the bell. Um, but I just remember thinking, like, what now? Like, what do I do now? Like the treatment’s done, but now I have to figure out how to live after this diagnosis. It’s like. Right? Like your life is split in two. It’s like and kind of like what you were saying, it’s like with any trauma, it’s like life pre-trauma, and then life post-trauma– and for breast cancer patients, i just felt like it was like, okay, we don’t tell them what life is supposed to be like after the diagnosis, and because I think we do such a good job of like celebrating them at the end of treatment, they don’t want to tell a lot of people that they’re still scared and that, you know, like yesterday I saw a patient and I just said she was coming to the end of radiation, and I just said, okay, how are you feeling? That’s all I said, how are you feeling? And she just broke down in tears. And she’s like, I’m almost done with radiation and I am so scared I am going to die.
Alison : Yeah.
Sue: And she and it doesn’t matter that you’re telling me I have stage one disease. I understand that I’m scared I’m going to die. I don’t want to tell anyone because I know there are people in that waiting room that have stage four cancer and they’re, and I, I, I don’t want to seem like I’m, I’m discounting what, you know, I don’t have a, I just this conversation was just so it was such a good reminder to me because she just was like, I was sitting next to a lady with stage four cancer, like she’s going to die of her cancer, you know, who am I to sit here crying about my stage one cancer? But the fact is, I am consumed with the fact that this is going to kill me, you know? Um, and then from that, we just kind of, I always go through steps with patients that feel like that. And they’re the same steps that I take. Like when, when you feel like you are just being swallowed by the world and you don’t know what to do. And I just, I just said, hey, look, don’t look at the I always tell patients don’t live in the future. The future is unknown. So trying to figure out what’s going to happen, what’s not going to happen. Like it doesn’t get us anywhere. And because right now you are so consumed with just this fear, what I need you to do is I need you to I need to bring you back to today.
Sue: Like, let’s, let’s focus on today. And what I want you to do is every day, you’re just going to take it in 24 hours. Like I don’t want you to tell me what you’re doing tomorrow. I want you to tell me what you’re doing today. And then tomorrow you’re going to tell me what you’re doing tomorrow. Um, and it’s like, if you just kind of break down your world into like a box and you’re going to focus your efforts in this box, then I feel it does kind of help to, to bring down some of that fear because you know, what you’re doing today. Like, you know your schedule, like you, you, you know, and that certainty helps you calm that fear. Um, and then the other thing I told her is I need you to do something that’s not breast cancer related. You know, like I think when you go through the diagnosis, everything you do, it feels like it’s like revolving around breast cancer. I said, look, go for a walk or like, go make yourself a cup of coffee or, I don’t know, go play ping pong. Go do something that does not remind you of breast cancer. You know, get one activity and do it every single day because that is your time away from this disease. Um, and she. Oh, I think he’s back. Hold on. He’s going to he’s going to knock down the park.
Alison : I love that. Hi!
Sue: So this is Nacho.
Jean : Nacho, what a great name.
Sue: Hey. Come here.
Sue: Can you see him?
Alison : We can just see the top of. Oh, there. Oh, hi….
Jean : He’s a bull,
Sue: He’s a Cane Corso. I like, I like him big. The the cane Corso I wrote about in the book. He actually died last summer.
Alison : Oh. I’m sorry.
Sue: Yeah. It was it was a that was a shock. Uh, and then, um, like two days later, I went out and got a puppy and my friends were like, man, you don’t slow down. And I’m like, I don’t know, I just there’s something very comforting about having a ginormous dog, especially when you’re like, you know, a single mom with three kids in a house.
Alison : Yeah, totally. You know, it’s interesting your story because, um, my friend was, went through, uh, breast cancer when, when she first got the diagnosis, she was just beyond herself hysterical. I’m going to die. What about my son? And we were very close and, and I remember saying to her, where are you right now? And she said, I’m in, i’m in the park. And I said, go stand under a tree. That’s where you are like, you’re alive. Your son’s okay. And I think what you’re saying, like, bring yourself back into the now and see really where you are. And I think that really is like, like advice for even living in these in this world right now. Do you know?
Sue: Yeah, because everyone does, you know, there’s a great quote. I heard it said presence is the antidote to fear. Mhm. Um, and it’s so true. It’s, it’s, it’s, we’re so consumed with kind of the future and what things should be like in the future, right? And we let all of that anxiety just consume us where we’re missing the big picture, like we’re missing what is right in front of us.
Jean : and you give another great tip, um, to help your to help clients or patients, which is gratitude.
Sue: Yes.
Jean : You have to cultivate an attitude of gratitude.
Sue: Yes. Um, my, my, one of my best friend’s mom says gratitude is the only attitude.
Alison : Oh that’s right, that’s right.
Sue: But you know, I mean, right. It’s so to be able to take any situation, no matter how dire, and to have the ability to reframe it where you can find something good about it that is so powerful because, that’s also part of the whole taking back control. You feel so– you feel like you’ve lost total control when you get a diagnosis like this, or like if something, something unforeseen happens like it is and, and it is an uncontrollable situation. And I think by helping people feel like they are in control, that is, that is a critical step to recovering from anything. Um, and gratitude is so critical because it’s like, if, you know, if you can take a situation where it’s like, okay, that person has, I’ve had stage four patients, right? Um, and it’s interesting, I learned so much from these patients because they really, um, I mean, they have nothing left to hide, right? And they are just going to leave it all out there. And they say some of the most insightful things and to have someone who’s dying from cancer say, I am so thankful that I met you. Like for I am so thankful for the care that you give. And you know, it’s it’s touching because you’re like. I can’t cure them, right? I can’t, I can’t cure their cancer yet they’re sitting here and they’re just so thankful that like, I’m their doctor and like, there’s just no words to really express how much that that means to me as a doctor. But also when you are in a situation that you’re kind of die of your cancer and you’re still finding things to appreciate, it’s just, um, I don’t know, it’s, it’s amazing that people can do that.
Alison : That’s very, very beautiful.
Jean : So, so beautiful. I mean, I, and I, I love what you say and you’ve said it throughout your book about reframing. And I know for myself, if, if I’m challenged in something, I will ask my you know, I’ll, I’ll sit in silence and I’ll say, how? How can I see this differently? Because I’m seeing it either where I’m a victim or I have no power or whatever. And it might not come right away, but then I’ll get.
Alison : Yeah.
Jean : I’ll talk to Alison or I’ll talk to someone else that will help me reframe it. And, um, yeah.
Alison : So what would you say next? Is your biggest desire like or goal or dream or like, do you, do you like your kids going to college?
Alison : Like that’s? Well, we have kids that have gone to college and that’s a, that’s a, that’s a time.
Jean : It’s a new chapter.
Alison : You can call us if you want.
Sue: Sorry. Uh, when he barks, when he barks, he can’t hear anything else in this house.
Alison : That’s okay. We’re good.
Sue: Um, can you still hear me? Even though he’s barking? Okay. Oh, my gosh, this is the worst. I’m sorry. I’m so embarrassed.
Jean : You actually don’t hear him.
Alison : And we don’t hear it. And we love dogs. Our dogs have barked during interviews. It’s just life. It’s totally fine.
Sue: I’m sorry. Can you ask me the question again?
Alison : Sure. do you have any dreams or goals?
Sue: Oh. Yeah. You know, um, my goal now is… So I tried, i always try now to find purpose in everything. And when I think about what is my purpose, like, um… I feel like I got this cancer, lived through it to come through and help women who are surviving from cancer. Um, because it is such a neglected part of cancer care. Now it’s getting better. Okay. I’m going to fully admit, like, bigger institutions are having programs called survivorship clinics where we are helping guide women through this. But the problem is, right, like 70% of the patients in this country are treated in a community hospital or an overall hospital where you don’t have access to survivorship care. Because the unfortunate thing about survivorship care is this it doesn’t make money. Like it’s about counseling patients. It’s about educating patients. It’s about teaching them about lifestyle medicine, and also more importantly, telling them that they’re not alone. Um, that doesn’t make hospitals money. And unfortunately, if it doesn’t make money, it’s really hard to build a robust program throughout the country. And what I want to do now is I want to figure out a way to, regardless of where you are located, whether you are in the middle of Arkansas or whether you’re in New York City. Right? I want to figure out a way to make survivorship care accessible for every cancer patient out there. Um, because I don’t think it should be something that’s just, um, it shouldn’t be something that’s limited to places that can offer that care. When you ask me, what is my new vision? This is kind of the latest project that I’m working on.
Alison : That’s fantastic. Thank you. Thank you for doing that.
Jean : Yeah. Thank you. It’s so important.
Alison : We ask our two final questions at the end of our interview. And our first one is, what do you think inside wink means?
Sue: Sorry, my kid, I just went to like a two year old brain right there. Um.
Alison : You can say it. We’re into it.
Sue: Um, okay aside from tooting. Um, inside wind….
Alison : I love that.
Sue: Oh, sorry. Sorry. you have to understand, I have three boys, so, uh, well, now 18, 15, 13 and like, we get lots of interesting smells. So. And then also three dogs. So when you say inside wind, when my mind is like, that’s exactly what it reminds me of. Um, but inside wind, when I mean, when you ask me that question, I guess it’s, it’s that, um, inner energy that, that motivates you to, to, to do something. It’s, it just when you say inside wind, it just feels like, it’s like an internal energy that we all have in us, that we just kind of need to figure out how to, how to harness it in order to like a windmill, like create some type of power.
Alison : I love that.
Jean : Yeah.
Alison : That’s beautiful. And that’s what’s going to happen with your survivorship,
Sue: I hope, I hope.
Alison : Yeah, it’s great.
Jean : It is… I have a good, good feeling. I had little chills when you were talking about it. Okay. So Sue, do you prefer cake, pie or ice cream?
Sue: Pie…You know, my favorite pie is? that silk.. Um. Oh my gosh, when I had my first kid, I, I weighed in at like 205 pounds, which was 60 pounds over what I’m normally. And the baby was only ten. And it was because I ate a silk chocolate pie, like pretty much every day of my pregnancy.
Alison : Oh my gosh.
Alison : Mine was macaroons.
Sue: Oh, those are good too.
Jean : Mine was chocolate chips.
Jean : Okay. Well, I love that pie you’re talking about. Yum.
Alison : Thank you so much. You’re just such a …I feel like I know you, and so I really appreciate your book and who you are as a person. You’re really fantastic. Thank you so much.
Jean : And I know that the book you wrote is it’s really blessing so many people and inspiring people to live more day to day in gratitude, in presence. And not that we, you know, we, we have, we get so distracted in this world, but, you know, we’re on to it. And we know that’s a superpower.
Sue: I am so thankful that the two of you have given me the opportunity to share my book and just help me get the word out. And, um, and I, I love this, I love talking to you guys. It’s, I feel like we’re like, you know, sitting, having a cup of coffee with my dog too.
Alison : Thank you so, so much.
Jean : Yes.
Alison : Have a wonderful rest of your day.
Sue: Great. Take care. Nice to meet you. Bye. Well.
Jean : Another beautiful interview. Wow. she’s amazing.
Alison : She’s just been through a lot. Like I was just saying in the book, she goes through a lot in that book and the kids and the family and and yet you can, you can really hear her spirit and her dedication to, to living a full life right now, you know?
Jean : Right. And I mean, she’s so young that she’s gonna, you know, now that she’s, she’s learned all these really deep life lessons… I mean, she’s just gonna be such a powerful.
Alison : I was just going to say a powerhouse of.
Jean : Of love and light and support for countless people.
Alison : And it’s interesting because when you meeting all these people, like when we do these interviews and everyone’s got their own story, you know, their own thing. And yet they get through it. And they, they they’ve accumulated gifts from it, from the universe, from their friends, from their family,
Sue: Because as she said, she chose, I mean, you, you can ask, i think that’s the thing that she wants to see the gift that someone wants to see the gift in their challenge like. That the gentleman we interviewed, the magic in the tragic.
Alison : right.
Jean : Because you can easily go the other way and it’s just not a good thing.
Alison : No. well, you leave, you leave feeling that journey is desperate and hollow. And when you see this woman, you know, um, I hope the picture that we pick. She just has she has joy in her and she’s glowy. And yes, the dogs are walking around. You know, and the way she described her kitchen just full of life. And I think everybody likes that. What a simple thing, you know. Right. But we’re so lucky.
Jean : We are so lucky. Blessed and grateful.
Alison : So yeah. Thank you so much, doctor Sue. We really love you. And to all of you, it’s a great, great book if you can pick it up.
Jean : Very enjoyable to read.
Alison : From both sides of the curtain, by Dr. Sue Hwang, MD
Jean : Got a lot of humor in it and, um, and it was great.
Alison : It was excellent. Yes. Have a wonderful day. You too, Jean. Have a wonderful day.
Jean : Thanks, Alison. You, too. Okay,
Alison : Bye.