Oscar and Emmy-nominated filmmaker Paola di Florio is a vanguard in the “Conscious Cinema” movement and founder of Counterpoint Films, whose mission became to produce and distribute media that “Awakens the Human Spirit” which she runs with her husband and business partner, author, screenwriter, producer Peter Rader. Besides, My Father, The Healer – their films include: Autobiography of a Yogi (which became one of the top-grossing indie docs of 2014-15) and Infinite Potential, a rich exploration of science and spirituality.
Learn more at thisiscounterpointfilms.com
Transcript
Alison : Okay.
Jean : Good afternoon.
Alison : Good. Good afternoon, Ms. Trebek. How are you?
Jean : I’m well. How are you doing?
Alison : I’m pretty good, you know. I’m going out tonight, um, for dinner with some friends.
Jean : Yes.
Alison : Which I love, to an Italian… I believe it’s a vegan restaurant because one of my friends is vegan, and I love seeing people. And I love seeing these people. Alan and Kathy.
Jean : Wonderful.
Alison : They are such good people. You know, when, like, you just want to hug people.
Jean : Yeah,
Alison : That’s the energy that..
Jean : You’re like that Allison..
Alison : Am I?
Jean : Yeah.
Alison : That’s the energy that they have.
Jean : Well , You’re in good company.
Alison : Yeah,
Jean : They’re in good company.
Alison : We’re all in good company.
Jean : Yeah.
Alison : Do you want to come?
Jean : No.
Alison : Yea, You have Matthew.
Jean : Yeah, but you have a great time.
Alison : Thank you.
Jean : So speaking about good company.
Alison : Yes.
Jean : We get to interview Paola.
Alison : Diflorio and Peter Rader, and they are filmmakers that work together, work separately, and they’ve done some incredible documentaries. Either they’ve directed them or produced them or both.
Jean : Yeah. so they’re a married couple team that, uh, I think their partnership is exquisite.
Alison : Me too. They compliment each other so well.
Jean : Absolutely.
Alison : And their movies are great. So we had the privilege of watching three of them, “Awake – The LIfe of Paramahansa Yogananda”.
Jean : Right. “Infinite potential” – That’s about the life of a quantum physicist, David Bohm”
Alison : Oh, I love that one, and then their latest documentary, My Father the Healer”, which is an incredible journey that you take with this, with this healer, his son and these filmmakers.
Jean : Right
Alison : It’s really. I can’t wait to talk to them.
Jean : Yeah. I mean, the work that they are putting out is really beautiful. And, you know, it’s it’s it is about an inner transformation, And not only, uh, I think what they really drive home is that there is more to life than what we just see with our eyes and ears. There is another realm that even quantum science is picking up on and acknowledging. So, um, it’s going to be great. That was a great intro. Here we go,
Alison : Here we go. All right, hang on everyone.
Jean : Hi, Peter.
Alison : Hi, Peter.
Peter: Hello. Paola is joining. Here she is.
Paola: Hi.
Alison : Hi. how are you? I’m Alison.
Paola: Yes.
Jean : And I’m Jean.
Alison : And that’s Jean.
Alison : Thank you so much for doing this. We have been watching your films, and, boy, they… When you watch them, you feel better when you’re done.
Paola: Really? That’s great. Yeah. They’re excellent. They’re excellent. So thank you very, very much. You know, when, um.
Paola: Thank you very, very much for having us. Yeah.
Peter: It’s really an honor.
Alison : I’m Excited because this is our first, this is our second time, I think, talking to people in the film business. Because we talked to Bill, we talked to Paul Raci. Right.
Jean : Right, right, and I just have to say on a personal note that, um, your movies really, um, they’re the type of documentary, the movies that you make that really touch, touch me at a deep level. And I know I’m not alone at that. And I also want to share that I, um, screened the movie the Awake at a church and everyone was over the moon about it. So, um, I feel like I know you through your movies already, and it’s a real treat to have you with us today.
Paola: That is the best compliment, actually. Thank you so much for saying that. And what church was it?
Jean : It was the North Hollywood Church of Religious Science.
Paola: Okay.
Jean : That’s Science of Mind.
Paola: Yes, I know that. That’s that’s, uh.
Peter: Jean, was that in in our during our original release like around 2015 or more recently?
Jean : I think was. Uh, because it came with like a like a press kit.
Peter: Yeah. Like a that was part of our campaign was to do community outreach to churches and… Yeah. Yeah.
Jean : so that’s how I found out about you.
Paola: That’s Amazing.
Jean : So and here we are getting the opportunity to speak with you about all these great films in your lives as filmmakers.
Alison : And, um, we just when I talk to people that were going to meet you, they’re like, oh, I love, Awake. Everybody’s seen that film.
Paola: Your community is the community, for sure.
Alison : Yeah,
Peter: Our people.
Jean : Your speaking our language. I mean, that’s like preaching to the choir.
Paola: Fantastic.
Alison : When you have these films that have such an impact and discussions about spirituality, how did you settle on those themes? Because it seems like thematically that’s what you keep exploring. How did that…. What happened to you guys that you thought, hey, let’s do this?
Paola: That’s such a great question. You know, um, I think initially, um, I was more interested in like the my very first film was really about finding voice. And I think that not just NADJA SALERNO-SONNENBERG was a world renowned violinist and she no longer is a soloist, but, you know, she’s one of the most extraordinary soloist soloists. Uh, on violin in the world. And, um, I knew her growing up, and I just, uh, I was astounded just listening to her play. Her mother was my piano teacher, and I would sit and do piano lessons, but I couldn’t concentrate because she was practicing violin down the down the hallway. And I think that that expression that need to express- courage, you know, the courage to find what is, where your seat is, who you are, and, um, and really be comfortable in that and then really express that is, I think, the theme of transformation. And I think looking back, because I think at the time I don’t think I was aware of it, but I believe that all the stories that I’m really attracted to are about human potential and transformation. And that is a spiritual journey. And so not knowing it led me to the next thing and the next thing. And, you know, um, Peter and I actually co-facilitate a, um, a creativity and spirituality lab at Esalen. And, you know, one of the things that it really is about is is coming into alignment, right? It’s coming into alignment. And I look back and I really think, um, sometimes ideas find us, rather than us find the idea. And that certainly was the case with, Awake. So after making a social impact film, um, and more than one, it sort of led me to spiritual impact. And that was very new for me. It was for me that was an awakening coming into spirituality. Spiritual impact and what our purpose here on life really is through that lens. Um, so now it’s I think once you go through that portal, it’s very difficult not to see things that way anymore.
Jean : Yeah. I couldn’t agree more. Yes. That, um, you know, when you .. For me, all so many of your films really marry the the spiritual and the physical and coming into alignment with that, it reminds me of the word human, Hu, meaning God, man, man. And you even touch upon that with with, Infinite Potential.
Peter: Yeah. That’s a movie. Um, we produced and distributed. We were consulting producers and we did the final edit, and then we brought it to market. So it’s not Paola’s film as a director, though, she was involved in the in the sort of re-editing of it because we were given a very long cut. Um, but, you know, um, people talk a lot about social activism and, you know, needing to do something and, you know, have impact, social impact, social activism. Well, the thing that we’re now sort of realizing is that there’s this incredible power in spiritual activism and, and that begins with us, like doing our work, you know, our own healing because, you know, in a Buddhist prayer, like in a practice, you always begin with yourself. May I be happy, may I be peaceful, may I be filled with loving kindness and compassion. May I be free from suffering. And then you extend it out to the rest of the world. And that sort of vibration goes out and out and out all the way out. But it does need to begin with us. And it’s a very, very powerful practice. So we sort of pivoted from this, like completely externally faced. You know, I used to be a Hollywood screenwriter, you know, and now, you know I’m Paula’s partner in the company. She founded, Counterpoint Films. And, uh, you know, we’re doing, for instance, mentoring other filmmakers, inventors, entrepreneurs, you know, all creators in that lab. She mentioned, by the way, it’s called source to screen from source to screen.
Alison : Yeah, I love that. Put your own oxygen mask on first, right?
Peter: Yeah. Yeah. On the airplane. Yeah.
Alison : It kind of makes sense. How do you like you know, I really loved Waterworld.
Peter: Thank you.
Alison : I loved it. And, um, how do you know whether or not a subject should be a narrative or a documentary?
Peter: That’s excellent question. Um, so we when we mentor filmmakers, so when we do this lab at Esalen, we usually have about 25 people. And the first question we ask is, what is it? What does it want to be? The idea needs to tell you what it wants to be. It’s a lot of people say, I want to make a film. Are you sure? Are you sure it’s not a blog? Are you sure it’s not a series of essays? Like, how do you want to tackle that subject? What’s the most articulate and effective way of transmitting it? And basically to your receivers, to draw in your audience. And, you know, the the material needs to tell you what it wants to. Obviously, Waterworld needed to be Buster and other movies want to be other things.
Alison : Okay. That’s interesting.
Jean : Okay, so I’m curious how each, what’s your individual creative expression that you each bring to the to making a film?
Alison : Mm.
Paola: Well, you know, we actually, um, we had just the, the pure joy of, of making my first film together. Um, Peter, uh, shot it and, um, we had just met, and it was super exciting. Um, and it was, uh, for me, it was really a beautiful mentorship. Uh, Peter really supported, I think he saw something in me and really supported the creative flow. And for me to jump in and take a chance at directing my first film and, you know, um, and that partnership was just that was founded right there with the making of that first film. But he was still writing, you know, Hollywood screenplays and, um, and we don’t always work together. So he’s, you know, writing a script right now, and, and I’m directing a documentary film. And so sometimes we do our, our own separate things, sometimes we come together. But what we really come together on is the messaging… Right now, that messaging, whether whatever form it takes, if it takes the form of, you know, a a narrative or a documentary or, um, a book in Peter’s case, um, that’s just going to dictate what it needs to be. And we support each other in everything that we do. So, you know, if he writes a book, I’m reading every chapter or he’s reading it out loud to me, um, and he sees every cut of, you know, everything that I’m doing. And we just really just help each other through. And then sometimes we’re professionally and more, um, let’s say, formally collaborating.
Alison : You know, I think part of the beauty of the human experience is, um, the flawed aspects of our personality and our ego. I actually think that that’s, um, kind of why we’re here to learn. And what’s interesting is in all your films, there are these people that are like these huge, uh, you know, Yogananda and yet he had trials and tribulations. What do you guys make of that? Like, like and how does that affect your own life?
Peter: So, you know, we both want to answer this, i know, but I’m going to start, um, you know, Paola and I met literally 30 years ago. Water World was being released in July of, of, of 1995. And we met 2 or 3 weeks earlier. And in our very first conversation, within minutes, we were talking about archetypes and story. Um, we we that’s our passion. Our passion is is storytelling. And, you know, we’re both writers and we’re both really passionate about, passionate about exactly what you said, Alison, which is the human experience and particularly the aspect that you’re talking about, which is essentially the fall from grace we will all fall. That’s part of the human experience. We will fall many times, and we actually teach this as a module in, source to screen is- what’s the fall? And how does the fall inform your character? Sometimes the fall is a secret and it happens, you know, before, you know, like in Chinatown. The fall from grace happens off screen and way, way in the past, and no one’s going to talk about it. But in Yogananda’s case, this is something that Paola literally fought for in the storytelling. We were working hand in hand with the organization because they controlled the archives. And, you know, we had sort of some checks and balances in terms of the story. We kept saying we need to humanize the guru, and we say that to anyone who’s making a, you know, a movie about a guru is where did he fall? Where did he fail? Where did he cry? What was the betrayal? You know, that’s the second act of that movie. And it really humanized him. And, you know, it was a shock to the devotees. They knew nothing of that part of the story. They’d only read the autobiography, which is all exalted, you know. I mean, there’s some trials in there, but it’s still it’s exuberant, it’s young. But he came to America and boy, he faced racism and injustice and betrayal and all these very human things. That’s what we think makes stories interesting.
Paola: Yeah, I would say that the the human journey, you know, just being human. Um, there’s a reason why, uh, in any creative endeavor, they call it the hero’s journey.
Alison : Yeah.
Paola: Right. It is a hero’s journey just to be alive and to walk through this earth and to really understand our purpose and to navigate all the, uh, all the pitfalls, all the challenges, the the beautiful glory of it all. It’s it’s a journey. It is a journey. And I think that, um, you know, now, what’s so great about getting older is that you start to look at that journey with a wider view and you realize, gosh, you know, we always think that it’s just us in the beginning, right? We think we’re alone going through these trials and tribulations, um, and that we’re the only ones being tested. And, you know, then there’s sort of like a wake up that happens. You wake up to something and it could be something really painful that happens, that wakes you up. Or it could just be, um, like a malaise that comes over you or some sort of thing where you realize that, hey, um, these values that I’m living with, where do they come from? Are they really from innately within me, or are they from some outside force that is telling me what to love, what to be, how, how to be? And I think that that wake up for me is really interesting. And I find that in every story is like, where do we find ourselves coming back home to ourselves?
Alison : Yeah.
Paola: And I would imagine, Jean, that as a healer, you’re always bringing people back to themselves. I don’t know if you would think of it that way, but for me, that is that is a healing journey.
Jean : Oh, I couldn’t agree more. I do think it’s all about bringing yourself back to the heart. Your mind or my mind is is can be very analytical and and I can actually feel it when I’m living too much in my mind, I get tired, you know, I just I just don’t feel right. And I think that is healing is is just integrating back to the heart, putting, you know, coming back to a, you know, a more state of presence. And, um, but and I think that’s what your movies do, you know.
Alison : You know, like, like in these movies there is people like these, these, these people that have devoted their lives. I felt trying to escape their humanness also in a way which I think is so Interesting. Like in, My Father the Healer…. Oh my gosh, that movie is so intense to me because you got that son in there, right? And then you see this man like with all, and then it it leaves him and… Right, like he his whole life changes and the people aren’t there. And the devotional like, what do you think? What did you think about that? Like, I just thought that was wild, that he was kind of, um, all those people focusing on him and then not having that…. That’s a wild experience for a human being.
Peter: You’re you’re talking about the fundamental forces, right? There’s that desire to bypass, you know, there’s the God complex like, my God, you know, this guy you’re talking about, My Father, the Healer, or the latest movie that we’re we produced and are You know, distributing now and just actually won its 10th festival award last weekend.
Alison : That’s fantastic.
Peter: And the hero there is this, it’s a docudrama, so it’s documentary with fictional, you know, recreations in there. Um, is is a gentleman with extraordinary abilities from China who essentially gets named in this book as a prophet in an ancient text. He’s in there. He thinks he’s the prophet. And my God, does that just blow up his head?
Alison : Yeah.
Peter: And he does what we humans do, which is hubris. You know, it just inflates this ego. And you think it’s spiritual, but it’s my God, it’s the opposite. And then he has this humbling and, you know, an incredibly heroic journey for a Confucian master who’s supposed to have it all together and know all the answers, and especially with respect to his son, he’s supposed to be this great masculine figure. And, you know, by the end of the movie, he’s, like, weeping and admitting that, you know, he it he went crazy. You know, it’s such an incredible journey. We love Master Li so much.
Paola: But I think that the I think that journey also is one where, um, you know, the mission wasn’t fully accomplished, right? It was it was helping and healing other people and then forgetting that he had to heal himself. Right. And I think it’s our nature to avoid suffering. Right? It’s our nature to kind of want to suppress or, you know, um, let just avoid avoidant behaviors, uh, anything. Look at all of the, the ways in which, um, you know, the outer world is seducing us into suppressing and, uh, and making making it harder for us to get in touch with what is in the way, what is really in the way of us getting into that alignment. Right? So for me, the stories, all the stories really are telling that same story, which is coming back to yourself, coming back to what is truly who am I, right? Who am I? Is that question? And there is, i think we’re all born with a unique nervous system, right? And so that nervous system is really that’s our guide, our internal guidance system. And if we don’t listen to it, eventually it gets us into trouble. And that’s what happened to to to Master. Lee. He’s an extraordinary, you know, um, super spiritual human, but was definitely pushing something down that, uh, that was a horrible pain regarding his, um, growing up in Maoist China. And it just that gave him running away from that is what gave him, I think, the opportunity to, um, explore his spiritual gifts. If he hadn’t had that, he may have never explored his spiritual gifts. They came… That’s the thing, there’s always two sides to that coin. Yeah, but if we’re not willing to look at it and we’re suppressing it, it will come back. It will come back, right?
Alison : Yeah. Yeah.
Jean : Oh, that’s for sure. It’s scary.
Alison : I know.
Jean : I mean, that that’s the tantalizing thing with when you start, uh, being introduced to spirituality, you can easily fall into that spiritual bypassing where you’re not really looking at these core wounds that that we come here to embrace. Um, I think a lot of people including, you know, was was always used to pushing it away. Yeah. And, um, you know, and then it’s it’s coming full circle. And, uh, I did love My Father, My Healer, and, um, I’m curious, was is there a film that you guys made that you felt, oh, my gosh, I my consciousness has really been shifted here.
Alison : Mhm.
Jean : Or was it a little bit of all of them… Yeah. Because I can remember reading a book and I would think wow I, I am being leveled up.
Paola: Yeah yeah yeah . I mean for, for me definitely, Awake. You know I think every, every single one, you know, every single one because I think that, that, you know, Speaking in Strings was, was um, you know, story of, of basically coming into oneself with her voice. And so it, it was my creative voice was found with that film, um, and then Political Awakening with, with, um, home of the brave, but, wow, i was not prepared for Yogananda. You know, like, that was really quite, quite the journey to come into, um, that film and to travel to India to learn about yoga on such a profound and precise level. Um, it really inspired me, I think, to go into the texts and to really, um, it was a it was an unfolding and unfolding that was never going to end. I think I realized that’s never going to end for me. Like it’s just a constant, such a deep well. But that was traveling to India and to the Himalayas into, um, the cave of the Param Param, guru of Yogananda, uh, Babaji and kind of seeing, um, and experiencing something that at that time I didn’t really understand. So I couldn’t certainly understand the idea of a timeless saint.
Alison : Yeah.
Paola: Um, I grew up with a Catholic father and a mother who was, uh, you know, a biologist and and then a therapist and and she was an atheist. So I kind of had a little bit of both, you know, and I really had a difficult time wrapping my brain around such a concept. Right. And I think, um, I remember we were filming in this cave, which we just recently visited on our recent trip to India. And I came down, we traveled ten hours down to Delhi, and something happened inside my body that was quite, uh, unusual. And it was just something that was vibrating inside my body. I didn’t know what it was. And I look back in time and realize that that was the beginning of something that was just cracking me open, you know, and realizing that I had a lot to learn and that I was stepping into a much more expansive world that, um, was going to take me on quite a life journey.
Alison : Fantastic.
Peter: And that was just production. And then, you know, was then sitting at the editing on the timelines. You know, we all contributed to the editing of this film. And Paula would spend, you know, days and days and hours just seeing Yogananda’s footage and his face. And every time he was photographed or, you know, filmed, you know, he had George Eastman, the founder of Kodak, was one of his disciples. So he was given a movie camera and equipment. So they, you know, there’s some really powerful archival footage. He would always make direct eye contact with the lens. You know, we thought at first. God, that’s so goofy. It’s so self-conscious. What is he doing? My God, we can’t use this. But then we realize that he’s actually transmitting through the barrel of that lens. He’s transmitting. You know, the Shakti, the darshan, the energy of a guru, you know, so that Paula is like getting this, you know, day in, day out. And it’s like, you know, you’re getting a Yogananda sound bath there.
Paola: I think I think you have to be in a place where you’re ready and receptive to those things, because otherwise, you know, it doesn’t happen, you know?
Jean : Sure.
Alison : Exactly. You come out of editing and your hair’s like, whoa! Yeah. Enlightened. I love that. Um. Do you what, what is your, if you don’t mind me asking your guys practice now? Like, are you have have you shifted to more Buddhism? You and I had very similar upbringings. I had an Italian family, and then my father was agnostic. And, you know, I went to church alone with another family. But then when I stopped eating meat, my grandmother took me to the priest because I had to have, you know, the whole thing. So, like, where are you now? Where are you leaning now in terms of your own growth and spirituality?
Paola: Yeah. I mean, I, um, look, I, I wasn’t the same after making Awake. You know, um, that that really I had a meditative practice before that. And I’d been practicing yoga in my 20s since my 20s. Um, and I think Peter and I, when we met, we were more on the Buddhist path. So I didn’t really understand devotional, um, practices. So, uh, but after, you know, in the years of making that movie, because it was years, um, I –something switched, There was like a light switch that went on and it was, uh, I practiced I learned Kriya Yoga because I didn’t think I could make the film… I mean, I definitely had, let me put it this way…. I could not have, I could not have had that switch happen had I not taken that journey to India. That’s really where it started for me. Then in the editing. But I knew after the trip to India something profound had happened for me and combined with the research that I had done, I really was interested in getting initiated into the area. When I was initiated into Kriya Yoga, I didn’t realize that from there it would just be this never ending depth of information and growth that would that would happen spiritually.
Paola: So I’m very committed to the Kriya. Yeah, that’s definitely my path. Um, and I would say that also understanding that trauma, um, which I’ve definitely lived with childhood trauma, you know, and various it’s complex, but it’s, it’s that we have this ability, and I would love to talk to you Jean about this because it’s it’s for me… We have this ability and innate ability in the yoga tradition to get in touch with, to really in a very detailed way. Um, make contact with the energy points that are within the body and the chakras. And if we work with what we have within us, right through practices, through pranayama, through, um, meditative practices. And actually, um, we are working with the energy points and we can actually work with that energy in a transformational way and work with deep, deep traumas. So that is, um, I’m learning some new techniques in healing that are really, uh, working in this way through pranayama, through breath, through kriyas, and helping to release deep seated, um, trauma. Yeah.
Jean : That’s I mean, that’s so great to hear that your your heart is in alignment with that, with that mode, with that Kriya yoga mode of healing. And the great thing I…. And you can tell me what you think, but there are so many ways we all have a unique and beautiful path to us just tapping into that part of us that is beyond the story. So it’s honoring the story and sharing the story and knowing that we’re not the story. And all the while, you know, we have this beautiful body and many religions and, you know, kind of push aside the body, and yet here we are with these beautiful houses that hold our consciousness and that hold the trauma. If we don’t, I don’t want to say honor it, but just recognize it, recognize it, not judge it, kind of pull back from a victim, you know, state of mentality around it. And then I just think it’s it becomes God’s. It’s all up to to spirit, you know, really letting bringing it to spirit and letting spirit uh, re restructure it.
Alison : Yeah.
Paola: Yeah.
Jean : In a way that’s, that’s no longer you might still remember and have triggers. And I don’t think it’s always about not having a trigger, but when you have the trigger, you, you just become very aware. Oh that’s, that’s, uh, that fear, you know, and going, I can stop and pause and and not react or have it control me anymore.
Peter: Yeah. There are, you know, there are so many modalities. You know, Yogananda has this great quote which is, um, the ideal future will be a combination of the technological advances of the West and the ancient spiritual wisdom, the ancient technology of the East. “ideally balanced global culture” Like if those two could come together, it’s, you know, we’re unstoppable. And now, even in the West, there’s all these nuanced therapeutic practices. So, for instance, both Paola and I have therapists that do internal family systems, Heart’s work, um, where, um, what you’re talking about, Jean, which is there’s the trigger, can I create a little separation between me, the witness, and the thing that’s going crazy here? You know, if you can, then there’s this there’s this sense that that’s, yes, that’s that’s the story. But it’s not me. I’m, you know, I’m not it. And so you start to work with those energies a little bit and loosen, loosen the hold of, of all that stuff on you. And there’s, there are many, many ways to do it. Breathwork practices, meditation, you know, um, yoga, walks in nature. Some people, you know, equine therapy, spend time with a horse, you know, um, whatever, whatever works for you. You know, that’s the important thing is figure out what works for you and then lean in, you know?
Alison : Right. We’ve talked to a lot of people on this podcast, and the theme is this always comes up as curiosity. And I think documentarians are very curious people, like what you said about you were trying to play piano, but you were more interested in the violin daughter, you know, um, so if you could go and document any moment in history ever, what do you think would would appeal to you to do to do now?
Paola: Well, that’s a really loaded question.
Alison : In a good way or like a edit this out way.
Paola: Is there a choice?
Alison : Yeah. Yes. You can. You can say whatever you like. Okay. My father was a reporter and he was like, you guys. And he was very, very curious. And, um, I always wanted to ask him if you could, if you could have interviewed or covered anyone. Um, who would that who would, who would you? Not to change it, but just to document it.
Paola: Yeah. The reason I hesitate a little bit is because, um, I think that that I guess what I, I guess what’s coming up in this conversation and what is really true for me is that, um, the most important thing as we keep coming back to is this alignment, which to me is equating with healing. Mhm. So I’m very interested in any stories that really, truly do that and take you there. And I guess the hardest thing and the most interesting thing for me too, is to do it on a personal level with a very, very big loss that that, you know, Peter and I had, um, a couple of years ago with the, with the death of our son and, and there’s, um, so much, uh, connection between the, the depth of love and the amount of grief and this beautiful, rich life, um, and the vacuum that it created. And there’s something about being pushed into that reality that is really teaching me and forcing me to, um, to understand that line between story and what is story and story has truth, and story can be distorted, right? Story is something that weaves from distortion and truth and something that we really experience. And um, so to document or to write or to document in any kind of way because, you know, narrative can also document that story. Um, but to use it as, um, as a source, as a resource for a story that’s true about a particular experience or a moment in time and how it’s impacted and affected the lives of the people around. So if I, if but I the reason why I was hesitating is because it’s so deeply personal, and I’m still processing it.
Alison : Yeah, well, thank you for even sharing that. You know, it’s very, very moving and.
Paola: Yeah.
Jean : Yes.
Paola: I’m really drawn to, um, whatever it is… I’m really drawn to truth.
Jean : Um, that that is so obvious. For both of you.
Alison : It is so obvious. You know, it’s interesting. We we interviewed Scarlett Lewis, whose son was…
Peter: Oh, I know her well, yeah.
Alison : And, um, the amount of, uh, it brings tears to my eyes, and you guys are creating the same, uh, feeling for me. The amount of love that she just had has so much love and grief that, um. We interviewed doctor Jill Bolte Taylor.
Peter: Yes, Another hero of ours.
Paola: Yes. We love her.
Alison : I am, like, in love with that woman. Because at one point in our interview, she said, um. It was boring just being the peaceful side. Yeah. And that when her mother passed away, the meatiest, um, deepest emotion she felt is the feeling of grief. Mhm. Because it’s so connected to love and it’s so vulnerable and it’s so you want to throw up in a way. Do you know. Oh yeah. And she just, she changed my whole view on, uh, aiming for peace or aiming for, you know, really being solid and in your emotional state. And I think it’s amazing that that you know her and that you.
Paola: We don’t know her, but she was somebody who I, um, I really felt was Peter saying she’s one of our heroes. I mean, I heard her, um, I heard her – was it her podcast or her, uh, TEDx talk?
Alison : Yep.
Paola: Initially. And I had to run out and get her book.
Alison : Yes.
Paola: And then read her book and just thought, wow. And then, you know, there’s there’s another story, a similar sort of out of body or, you know, near-death story. Eben Alexander, I don’t know if you’re familiar.
Alison : We Interviewed him.
Paola: Oh. You did. Oh, wow. Yeah. These are these are really fascinating, fascinating stories. But that’s right. In other words, those are people that actually experienced going to the other side.
Alison : Right.
Paola: And then had the privilege of, you know, or, you know, chose to come back.
Alison : Right.
Paola: And I think that, uh, you know, in, in our case or in the case of people that don’t don’t leave and come back. Um, there’s still a choice, right? And the choice is to re create a relationship with that person that has been lost. Because that relationship, I don’t believe. I believe that it’s a continuum. So for me, it is really about okay, I can’t see it, I don’t know it. And I want with every ounce of my soul for that person to be here and present. Um, but that’s not going to happen. Nothing. Nothing that I can do can bring that person back. So the idea of leaning into that felt sense. Um, the communication that does happen, to really explore and lean into that is courageous.
Alison : Yeah.
Paola: And it’s courageous in the same way as not just salerno-sonnenberg courage in standing up and being exactly who she is when she touches that violin and Viola Liuzzo’s courage in leaving her five children and husband to go stand for what she believed in as a woman in the 1960s for civil rights. Um, it’s the same courage that Yogananda had. You know, it’s the courage to live by your conviction no matter what anyone else says.
Jean : It’s so true.
Alison : And we’re in a time right now, we talk about this a lot… We’re in a time right now where there’s so much divisiveness, and I think people think that they’re living in their convictions. And yet there is a lack of empathy or, and I think um, i think it was in Yogananda that it was the folding into the whole and unfolding back into the individual.
Paola: That, yeah, that’s, Infinite Potential.
Alison : I was like that. I had to keep going back and I wrote it. I have it on my desk because, you know, I think we’re just I think we’re at that point where people need to hear that. Do you agree? Oh.
Paola: Yes. And you know, who was a very dear friend of David Bohm is the Dalai Lama. And and we just had just the blessing of meeting him in during our trip to India. And it was incredible because, as you mentioned, compassion, you know, and so divisiveness, compassion, you were saying, is the thing that’s missing. And in the presence of this man was just the vibration, the vibration and the the, the Presence of that energy of compassion. So much so that there was just nothing else going on in that moment. You know, the amount of love and compassion and presence and attention that he was able to give to one individual, you know, um, at a time was, uh, was just extraordinary. And I thought to myself, like, this is this is the lesson.
Alison : Yeah.
Paola: Is presence.
Jean : Mhm.
Paola: Right. This is the lesson. So divisiveness is um, I think you were, you were coming off of that as we were talking about being in your conviction, standing and acting from your conviction, I don’t know that, I think is the truer we get to that, it’s not as divisive.
Alison : Yeah.
Peter: Yeah. You know, um, Paola used the word conviction, and we’re using that word, but but there might be a more articulate way of saying it because, you know, people are acting on their so-called convictions and it’s causing mayhem, um, you know, in a lot of communities. And I’m working with this, uh, sort of a spiritual coach. And he was, um, talking to me about this. He says he asked me a question. Do you think that there’s a there’s a truth that everyone in the world agrees to? And my immediate answer was, hell no, of course not. We have all sorts of different opinions, and there’s no way that we’re all going to agree on one truth. And he goes, let me let me ask the question, when is true? When is true? And I guess, okay, okay, you got me now. Now is true. This moment is true. And the idea that we can lean into Presence, like Paolo was saying, like, you know, His Holiness the Dalai Lama of being absolutely fully committed to the moment, to the person in front of you as a divine being. You know, just that idea of that intimacy of, you know, that that those types of interactions, you know, are, are, are true and flawless. Um, when we bring in stories and all that stuff that we learn and we’re told and history and future casting and all this stuff of, you know, those are all stories that are not right now, you know, right now is immaculate. And, um, just the I there’s a courage, and the conviction of being willing to be present is perhaps, you know, that’s kind of perhaps the gesture.
Paola: That’s so great. I mean, like, I think that that’s a great way of putting it, Peter, because I think that presence is sort of the one story. Right. And I think that really what we’re talking about here is when, when, when we come, we were talking about the word alignment before earlier in this talk. And I think that when we are in alignment, we are in the one story and that is our conviction. That is our unique nervous system that we came in with, right. Which is a piece of something and a reflection of something much bigger. That is the Oneness. So, you know, the closer we get to what’s true, I think we’re not we’re not trying to convince anyone else.
Alison : Yep.
Jean : Yeah.
Alison : You guys are fantastic.
Alison : your electricity bill must be low because you are just lighten it up. I think it’s I… You guys are really I. You’re so wonderful. Thank you so much. You really, you gave me chills so many times. Thank you. Thank you very much.
Paola: No, thank you so much for the opportunity. And we really love what you guys do. And thank you for doing what you do and for bringing these conversations.
Alison : this was a lot of fun.
Jean : We really have.
Paola: I’m sure.
Jean : And I know Allison and I could talk with with you for a long time.
Jean : We’re trying to keep our conversations, sort of, you know, at 45 minutes. And I’m going to wrap us up with a with our question of what does the word inside wink mean to you?
Peter: You go Paola.
Paola: You want to go first? I, I actually, for me I felt like, I feel inside wink to me is is sort of the, um, it’s the spark that comes with everything that we’ve just talked about, which is like coming into Presence, coming into truth. And when you know it and you feel it in yourself and in others, that to me is the inside wink.
Alison : Yeah. I love that.
Jean : Beautiful.
Paola: Peter.
Peter: For me, it’s it’s like, um, this the skinny on something really cool, like an open secret. But we’re going to talk about the inside wink, you know.
Alison : Oh, I love that both. Those are both. Excellent. Very. That’s and fun.
Jean : Yeah.
Alison : Like I haven’t heard the skinny on something in a while I love that. Um, and then finally, probably the most important question we’ve ever asked anyone pie, cake or ice cream?
Paola: For me, it’s all three.
Alison : Yeah.
Paola: And there’s no way I’m going to be able to distinguish between those three.
Peter: And for me it is papaya because I don’t do sugar.
Alison : Okay.
Jean : I love papaya.
Alison : I love that. Well, thank you so much. And thank you for bringing your movies and your and your heart and your soul. It’s so clear to see you in your documentaries. Like, I’m not surprised that you’re such wonderful people. Thank you so, so much.
Paola: Thank you so much.
Alison : For your work.
Jean : And your presence and your wisdom.
Alison : Yeah.
Paola: And you’re right back at you.
Alison : And when you have more films, we would love to talk to you again.
Paola: Okay great.
Alison : thank you so much. Have a beautiful day.
Paola: Thank you both.
Jean : Bye. Thank you.
Alison : What did you think of that?
Jean : I mean, talk about presence.
Alison : Yeah.
Jean : And wisdom and vulnerability.
Alison : Yeah.
Jean : You know, it was, uh. I really could have talked to them much longer.
Alison : Me, too. And they were so generous with their answers. And it was just really… What an interesting conversation. Yeah. And they. I said the minute we got off, I turned to Jean and said, they’re really smart. Like, oh my gosh.
Jean : Very articulate and very heartfelt… You know, all their answers were, were were from their deepest part of themselves. And I really appreciated that. I also wanted to share with them, i didn’t know if they knew that the Self-Realization Temple in Pacific Palisades, where we had all those fires, the building right next door to the temple was burnt down, and on the other side… And the only thing standing there is Paramahansa Yogananda’s temple. It was untouched by the Palisades Fire.
Alison : I didn’t know that.
Jean : Yeah.
Alison : That’s like a miracle.
Jean : Yeah.
Alison : Right. Wow. Yeah. When we write to them, we’ll let them know.
Jean : Oh, yeah.
Alison : Right. Okay. We’ll communicate with them. But, um, some of their…. The idea of being present. And I thought when Peter said when is the truth? Right now. Like just to remind us just to be– even if you don’t see their films, just listening to this interview about being present and about committing to your journey and committing to…
Jean : Your own truth, your own your own direct experience.
Alison : Right. And allowing yourself to actually grow into the best possible you, you know, the biggest, most expansive view.
Jean : I love that. Well said.
Alison : Thank you. Well, you did the one in the intro, so I had to do one good thing. Um, we hope you enjoyed it and have a, um, have a great day.
Jean : Have a great day.
Alison : Bye.