Podcast Episode 79: Linda Ugelow

Jean: Hi, there.

Alison: Are you. Are you, um. Are you feeling good about your public speaking?

Jean: Never.

Alison: Not at all.

Jean: Never. It is not my thing. But, uh.

Alison: But you’re very good at it.

Jean: You’re very good at it. But I think because you have.

Alison: I’m more used to it…

Jean: you’re more used to it beacause you have an actor’s training background. But I am really looking forward to talking with our guests today… Linda Ugelow.

Alison: Yep. She’s great. She wrote a book called, Delight in the Limelight. Overcome your fear of being seen and realize your dreams. And it’s more than just public speaking. This book about.

Jean: Yes,

Alison: It’s really about coming into your own worth, right?

Jean:  just feeling, uh, good about the person that you are.

Alison: Right. And she has she has a lot going on. She does Podcasts. She’s a writer and she’s a

Jean: Dancer.

Alison: Right.. She’s a speaker. She helps people increase their confidence. Yeah. Yeah. She’s got stuff. She’s got stuff.

Jean: We’re gonna hang out with her for a long time.

Alison: That’s right. That’s right. And we’re taking notes. I think you’re going to really enjoy it. Here’s Linda.

Linda: Hi. I didn’t realize you guys are going to be in the same room.

Alison: Yeah, we’re always in the same room.

Linda: That’s so cool. How fun is that?

Jean: Yeah. We are so blessed. We live very close to each other.

Linda: And where is that?

Jean: We live in Studio City, California.

Linda: Um.

Jean:  about five minute drive to each other.

Linda: How fun is that?

Alison: Well, thank you so much for joining us. This is very exciting for us because I’m an actor and Jean has to talk a lot in public and loves it.

Linda: Lucky you all.

Jean: I could have used your book, uh, quite a few years ago, but it was beautifully written, Linda. And, um, so thank you for for taking the time to write this book and to really, it’s so much more than just a, um, how to get, you know, it’s it’s such a soul, um, evolving book. It really gets underneath everything. And, um, but before we get into that, uh, would you like to tell us a little bit about your journey? Yeah, about fear of speaking.

Linda: Uh, sure.

Jean: And what prompted you to write this wonderful book?

Linda: Yes, yes. For sure. I, I grew up speaking very little. I was a good listener. I was the quiet one. Everybody else were the people who took up all the space, right? And it wasn’t until I was in grad school that anyone asked me to speak on anything, really. I mean, of course in school I probably had to do something, but the the first time I remember was in grad school. I was studying some movement therapy modalities, and there was one in particular that I was so passionate about. And my my advisor said, you know, you should give a talk to, you know, the school about it. I assumed she was meaning the students. And when I walked in that day, it was all the faculty and my blood pressure just like went rose up, I my mouth got so dry. Bone dry. I opened my mouth. Not a word came out. I couldn’t utter a single sound even to ask for water. And I was so mortified and my advisor did notice my dilemma. She brought me water. The sound came back, but I never felt like I got over that. Afterwards, I just felt like I wanted to crawl under the covers for a year. And I decided I’d never speak in public again. And I didn’t it for ten years. However, during that same time, I was a performer myself in with a women’s world music group. Oh, and I was on stage a lot. I was the principal dancer. I was a singer, you know, mostly inside a group, but occasionally solos.

Linda: But I hated having to introduce a song. I hated it. You know, we kind of joked how some people had the gift of gab and they would just go, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, yada yada about every song. And the rest of us would be like, memorizing, but like really nervous. And it wasn’t really something that I ever paid attention to until I became an online entrepreneur, when I decided to become an online coach, and once I built a website, I took a coaching course. I needed to build a following and at that time it was 2015. It seemed that video was the best way to go about it. So I started to take a lot of video courses to just get comfortable with it, which was very, very hard earned. I felt being a performer worked against me. It was like I was performative all the time. I didn’t know how to talk naturally. And when I finally, after taking a number of video classes, I made my first public video. But before sending it out, I sent it to a friend of mine and she said, Linda, I hate to say this to you, but it doesn’t sound like you. It doesn’t sound like the person who calls me up on the phone and chats with me, and I knew what she meant, but I didn’t know how to get out of that. Around the same time, my video mentor said, you know, there’s this incredible new technology called live streaming. This is 2015, and I don’t know if you gals remember periscope.

Alison: I do, I do.

Linda: You do?

Alison: Yeah. It was like the first one.

Linda: Yes. Yes. I think there was another one called meerkat. But no, no one used meerkat. Maybe just the some geeks. So. Yeah. So she they all the marketing guru said you got to get on periscope daily to build a following. So I thought, okay, I’m terrified, but I’m going to do this because I’m sure after a few weeks I’ll get comfortable and I’ll feel relaxed and and it was terrifying. I felt like I was hyperventilating, my heart was racing, my mouth was dry again. But I because of my background in expressive arts therapy and movement therapy, I knew how to like, breathe deeply and do affirmations and meditation and power poses and all that stuff. So I would spend like 45 minutes every single day, and then I’d write my notes that things I’m going to talk about and, and get on And then the next day I do the same thing. And so the weeks go by. I get to ten weeks and I’m thinking, wait a minute, why is my heart still pounding?

Jean: Yeah.

Linda: And I thought, I’m showing up, I’m getting on. But every single day I have to manage my anxiety.  I don’t want to have anxiety. How can I get rid of it?  That’s when I decided, you know, I looked at my background. I said, okay, you’ve got 35 years of being on stage, you have this master’s degree, you got to have some tools. So I made a list of all the tools I had, and one of the tools on my list was called focusing, something I had learned in grad school about kind of somatizing an issue. So I closed my eyes and I asked if the fear could talk. What would it say? And what came back was, you’re going to be attacked. And I Wondered, is this like cellular memory of being attacked on the Serengeti? Or is this my life? And suddenly memories came back to me of my sisters ganging up on me, kicking me in the shins, holding me on the ground to torture tickle me. When? Anytime mom put me in the center of attention, she would say. Linda’s such a good girl. Why can’t you girls be more like Linda?

Alison: Yeah.

Linda: And then it was like, well, duh. Of course, I’m not comfortable being the center of attention because I learned it was dangerous. And then all of a sudden it was like, oh, that’s what this is about. It’s not about getting on camera. It’s not about like, being afraid of talking to people who are nice that are sitting in front of you. It’s getting triggered from experiences that we had. Now, maybe it wasn’t, you know, that you had two jealous sisters, but, you know, you could have been bullied or you felt on the outside, or you were hurt or injured or rejected or ignored or shamed in public. And any number of things can create that feeling of no one likes me or no one wants to hear from me. I’m not worthy. I’m not as good as that other person that creates this sense of, it’s not safe to be seen. It’s not safe to be heard.

Alison: Right? What was interesting when I read your book, because I was always taught, just manage it, like as an actor, just manage it. Get over it. Jessica Tandy threw up every time she went on stage. Just do it like, you know. And when I, when I was reading your your work, I realized, oh, I think my I still get afraid when I have to go for an audition or act or do something. And I realized it was about, I’m an only child, and I had to be at a very high level of expectation. And I realized, oh, it’s because I have to be really great at it.

Linda: In order to be good enough. Right.

Alison: Right. And so I realized, oh, that’s what that like for I’m old. I’m 67, you know. And I realized, oh my gosh, that’s what that’s been all those years. So I love that you’re doing this sort of deeper dive and not just telling us to like, put lipstick on a pig.

Linda: Well, you know, that’s what everyone says to me. And I think that’s the issue when the speaking coaches are people who have always felt comfortable because they don’t know what it’s like on the other side and I think the reason why a lot of people come to me is because they feel I understand what it’s like because, I do. Yeah. Of what? What it’s like I didn’t get over my fear of speaking till I was 60. I’m 70 now.

Alison: You are not 70.

Linda: I am.

Alison: You are living right in Bedford.

Linda: Sexy at 70? Yeah.

Alison: You are just glowy.

Jean: Yeah.

Linda: Well, you know, this is part of the learning. It’s like, how can we find the best moment to moment experience that we can and bring that with us wherever we go, whether we’re on stage or on camera or at a networking event or at a party or working at our desk. And of course, I have my struggles too. I, in fact, just today I was chatting with an old drumming teacher of mine, and he was sharing ways that he has struggled to get comfortable speaking. He was a professor and and also a performer, and they each have had their own journey. And I was thinking, yeah, I’ve had a different journey for getting comfortable being seen dancing. I’ve had a different journey around my singing. I’ve had a different journey about writing and putting out my writing. And I have a different journey about speaking confidence. And, and, you know, people will say, well, it’s weird because I feel comfortable maybe when there’s an audience there, but I’m not comfortable when I have to look at a lens. And then there will be people who say the opposite, and then some people will say, I feel comfortable with, you know, a couple of people, but not a thousand. And then I’ve had people who come and they tell me the opposite. Yeah. Or people who are comfortable with their peers, but not elders and others. Elders, but not their peers. And it all depends on what are our unique personal conditioning that we had from, you know, a combination of our home life or school life, social media, religious, cultural, you know, where we grew up. All these things play a part.

Alison: That’s amazing.

Jean: It is. It is. So, you know, your work is so liberating. And and one of the things you wrote, Linda, was that fear, fear is a protective mechanism, but it’s also a gift.

Alison: Fear, fear.

Jean: What did I say?

Alison: Gift a gift.

Jean: I’m sorry. And, um and I do want to talk about that because to think of fear as a gift. So why why that I, I read it so I love it. But share that.

Linda: Yeah, it’s because without this fear, we wouldn’t realize those areas of our life that are asking to be healed, that are asking to be resolved. And this is actually why I like working with people who want to speak because they’re motivated to clean up their stuff. Yeah, we all have stuff. There’s no one on the planet that doesn’t. But when you are wanting, when you feel like you’ve got a message, when you feel like you want to make an impact and you have that motivation, you’re willing to do what it takes. And so if I didn’t have this fear of speaking, I wouldn’t realize that I’d been carrying this stuff around for my sisters all my life. All my life. And the crazy thing is, when I first when it first occurred to me, I was thinking, but we’ve been friends for decades. Do I still feel this way? Am I still worried that if I succeed in some way, they won’t love me? And I listened inside and I thought, oh holy moly, yes, I still feel that way. I’m afraid to shine.

Alison: Yeah.

Linda: That they’re going to think. Who does? Who does she think she is?

Jean: Yeah. And that that also can lead to the fear of abandonment. You know, there’s so many the layers of fear, you know, it’s like, wow.

Linda: And that’s why it’s so complicated. And it feels like this big, humongous mountain in front of you because there’s so many interconnected tangles in it. You know, I say, you know, the experiences kind of glom together.  So usually it’s not one experience. I also was bullied, you know, at school in seventh grade, all the girls decided, I don’t know why. Nobody talked to Linda. And for four days, no one talked to me. And that was life impacting. And, you know, I never went to a high school reunion until 40 years later because I was thinking, I don’t want to be around these people. These people didn’t want me. I don’t want them. Right. Of course, I kind of let go of that. And I thought, okay, I wonder who who these people are even are today. And what blew me out of the out of the water was, you know, so many people came up and they said, oh, Linda, I remember when you did this, I remember this dance event or I and they would tell me specific things and I would look at them and I’d think, I don’t even know your name.

Alison: Wow.

Linda: Because what happened was when I felt that, you know, I was hurt in this way, I put on blinders. It was like I stopped looking around me, I stopped observing. I was like, in my own world because it felt that’s.. That was my coping mechanism.

Jean: Right, right.

Linda: And how ridiculous. And now, you know, I’ve been back again for the 50th, and people are so nice. And it’s like, I don’t even remember who those girls were who concocted that thing.

Alison: Yeah.

Linda: But, you know, a single comment can last a lifetime, for better or for worse. And so the gift is that we see what these things are and we can clean them up. We can resolve them. And it doesn’t mean five years of therapy. There are lots of modalities that are out there. I name a number of them in my book that I use in my programs and with my clients. But, you know, right now I’m promoting a program, The Delight in the Limelight Accelerator. And it’s ten weeks. You can get over this in ten weeks.

Alison: Yeah. See that’s great. Do you, when you are working with somebody, are the modalities to get through different if it’s, uh, different types of fear or is there like a general sort of program to help you heal.

Linda: Well, I feel like there are different areas of attention that we need to do, but it’s not it’s not about like, oh, if you were bullied, you do something different than if you were ignored or your parents weren’t around, or you moved around a lot and felt on the outside. No, those the modalities work no matter what.

Alison: That’s great. And so do you find that you’ve healed from the kicking and the shins time?

Linda: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I, I was over it in five days. Once I realized that I had all this stuff. I, I had tools to work with it, and it was kind of like, I can’t believe I’ve had these tools for years. If I only knew I had stuff to clear away, I would have done it ten years ago.

Alison: Right.

Linda: But it never occurred to me because you look online. And what do they tell you? Feel the fear and do it anyway. Practice more. Um, if you have, you know, if you practice over and over, you’ll be fine or do some deep breathing or do a power pose, or pretend your fear is excitement or, you know, it’s all these. It’s not like any of those things are bad, but they’re not going to get to the root cause, right? So yes, I, I was over my fear in five days.

Alison: That’s fantastic.

Jean: That is fantastic.

Linda: Now, that’s not to say I wasn’t ever nervous again because I. I remember doing a storytelling slam, um, and I had a week to memorize it, and I was nervous because I didn’t know if I had it memorized. But that’s different than being afraid to be seen and heard. It’s kind of like, okay, am I going to, like, have the capacity and the mental focus to, to get through this because it’s not really inside me. And you know, that as being, you know, actors or on the stage or how that can be. So I, I feel like, yeah, if you’re not prepared, that’s going to cause some anxiety, but that’s different than being afraid of being seen and heard.

Alison: I think I think what you’re describing is a technical fear. Yeah. And then there’s like a heart fear. Mhm. It’s like, you know that thing that everyone used to say to me, just picture everyone naked.

Linda: As if that would be distracting. I mean, if you could do that. First of all I, I’ve tried that. It’s like, that doesn’t even work for me. But but if it did, I would find that extremely distracting and not focusing.

Alison: And not everyone I want to I don’t even barely want exactly that. So, you know, like, I just really.

Linda: Yeah.

Alison: So I love I love that you’re saying that we can all manage this because I think that’s like, for me,

Jean: or Get over it.

Alison: Right.  Like for me, it’s not so much being in front of an audience or any of that, but it’s at being at parties. I’m, I don’t they frighten me. I don’t know ever want to say I’m just eating cheese the whole night. Like I just can’t not do, you know? Like, it’s hard for me. And so I really want to work with this to get over that.

Linda: Absolutely. Yes. Yes. And I feel like you you absolutely can. And it’s a it’s a very meaningful place of our lives to learn to feel like really at home at a party because, I mean, you know, this is a gathering of people, it’s community, and it can be very meaningful if we feel comfortable. But there are a lot of issues at a party. For instance, a lot of people take up air time and they don’t have awareness of how to share it. So there can be issues like that or there can be…. I know for myself, I, I would feel comfortable doing something on stage, but not something in public  off this stage. Why? Because on stage, it’s a contract, that you have the right to take up the space. But to tell a lengthy story at a party and command that attention, it’s like, who am I to do that? So it’s it’s different. There are different elements at play that can create a sense of I don’t know how to do this, so it’s worth it for I mean, I would say, you know, think about what is it that you’re worried about?

Jean: Yeah. Yeah.

Linda: I mean, and then and then you take those things and then you trace it back.

Jean: Right and, you know, the beautiful thing too, is that we all have, as Allison says, our bag of rocks. You know, we we all have… I mean, I shouldn’t say we all… I don’t want to use absolutes, but most of us have fears. You know, whether it’s being abandoned, whether it’s not being liked. One, I just I mean, there were so many, but I really related to your imposter syndrome.

Alison: Yeah.  Could you talk about that a little bit for us? Because I think a lot of people have that, especially nowadays with so much social media.

Linda: A lot of times people think of imposter syndrome as like, I don’t know what I’m doing. That’s not really imposter syndrome, because if you’re doing something new, of course you don’t know what you’re doing. That’s about learning to have a beginner mindset and being comfortable being a beginner, which is admittedly really hard for us because, you know, like all all you need to do is like, say, okay, let’s, uh, draw a dragon and people are like i’m not an artist, you know. Oh my God. And as if it’s a big thing. And we’re so paralyzed by that.

Alison: Right.

Linda: So being able to say, okay, I don’t know what I’m doing because I don’t do art, but. And just do it. We we make it a this like we put this pressure on ourselves to be somewhere else than we are that I don’t consider imposter syndrome. I consider that a beginner um, being able to honor and accept being a beginner. Yeah. Where I do feel like it comes up is that no matter what you do, you’re not good enough, right? So the person who I had a client whose parents were never pleased with her unless she came home with a perfect report card or an award, and even then, it only lasted about 20 minutes. And then they would be mon that this was their daughter. Why did God give this person to them? She’s so awful and she had no idea what was what was wrong with her. But she grew up feeling like no matter how many awards she has, no matter how many accolades, no matter how many people thought she was wonderful and actually everyone in her life thought she was wonderful. And she was a consultant for a big energy company. So she had a big, high powered job, but she said she was in a panic all the time that someone’s going to find out she’s a fraud.

Linda: Why? Because the two people that were most important in her life, she was never good enough for. So no matter what she did, she always felt like that was that was her wound she was carrying around. So it can happen when you are pressured to be perfect, right? It can happen. I’ve had, um. Oh, I had this, uh, author Tricia Montalvo Timm, on my podcast, um, delight on the limelight. And she is a Latina. Her parents were immigrants. They told her, don’t tell anybody that you are Latina because there’s so much discrimination. So she hid that from everybody. And she felt I felt like, I was a fraud. Nobody knew who the real me because I’m hiding it, because I had always been told not to do it. And she had this amazing career very, very high up. And then she said, I feel like I’m a total fraud. The other thing that she, she talked about was, uh, affirmative action. Because if you, I mean, in and of itself, it’s not necessarily a problem. But if you have other people who don’t agree with this policy and they say you stole somebody else’s job, you’re only here because of that policy that makes you feel like you’re a fraud.

Jean: Yeah, sure.

Linda: I had someone I worked with from, um, Intel who had a very similar experience. She wasn’t a, um, a minority, but she was, she had applied for like a gifted kids program when she was, I don’t know, third grade or something like that. She didn’t get in, but her father was on the school board and got her in. And one day a boy turned to her as they’re walking to the gifted kids classroom. You’re not supposed to be here. You’re only here because your dad got you in. And here she is, this high level HR senior manager still carrying this wound. Yeah, I feel like I’m not really supposed to be here.

Alison: And you know, what you’re saying is so I think poignant right now, what you just mentioned about we’re living in a world right now, I think, where people are feeling more attacked by social media and feeling that if I’m afraid to say what I think, I’m afraid to do something because they could be cancelled. I could get, you know, threats like backlash. Yeah. Do you have any suggestions for how to maneuver through these times? Because I know so many people that are deeply upset.

Linda: Yes. It’s a very challenging time. And and I like to say that this doesn’t mean that there aren’t toxic environments. And we do live in a, in a dangerous environment in many ways. I, I see the biggest problem of the divide and I think for at least the way that I look at it, I see how can I cross the divide. And I think it has to do with listening to each other and asking questions and being willing to being willing to hold space for one another. And and remember, there was a time even in our country where, I mean, I remember being a kid and my parents had an election night party. They invited all their friends. They had a picture of Nixon and they had a picture, a picture of, i guess it was Kennedy.. And and they all came together and they watched the election night results together.. You would never have that here.

Alison: No.

Linda: So we need to remember that. And there was a time that even in the government, people worked with each other across the divide. And now it is a divide that is hardly, hardly, um, that hardly ever meets.  so I, I believe that it’s about how can I be brave. And and reach out and be open minded to listen. What are people what are people’s concerns? And I think in terms of like doing that, I think it’s it’s about like listening and not responding. Really it’s about like what what are the issues that are most concerning to you these days or what? What are, you know, in your what are your circles talking about and why is that? You know, what are what are they listening to? And you know what feels most painful or tender?

Jean: Yeah. And because I also think that really communicating through your heart is so important now more than ever. And you, you know, reading your, some of your work and, you know, really, um, empowers this whole our whole communication, how we address situations. Um, and to your point, Alison, I think it’s really important where we live in now to use our voices because so many of us have never really had to just go along with the status quo.

Linda: Right, right. I think that’s so important, Jean. And it’s it’s about that’s why I think it’s so important for us to share our stories. Yeah. Like, this is important to me because of this. This is what happened to me in my life. And so these kinds of things are important to me. And I think one of the benefits that I have gotten being a coach is that I hold space for a lot of people. I hear a lot of their stories, and I feel like that’s helped me hold space for people who come from different places. You know, one of the things that, um, you may not know about me, but my husband’s Hungarian and we spend a lot of time in Hungary, um, and I’ve done a lot of traveling. And it occurred to me that when I, when I traveled around the world when I was 23, I, I read about, well, how do people, you know, what are the values or what are the expectations in Burma or in Hong Kong or in, in India, and I try to move through those countries with as much um um, what what am I looking for? Uh, respect   as I could. And there were countries that treated women like, you know, they were second class citizens. They had different kinds of laws. They had very, very different practices when it came to, let’s say, uh, birth control or free speech or any of these things. But, I would go in there and I would accept it because I was a visitor to their country.

Jean: Right. Yeah.

Linda: We don’t do that here. We could do that here. We could treat each other like I’m a visitor to your country. Let me learn about your values. Let me learn about your perspective,  the rules you live by the the things that are important to you. We could do that statewide, we could do that, um, party wise, we could do that community wise. We could do that neighbor wise, you know? But it’s interesting that I don’t think that people have a problem. Let’s say, oh, I’m going to Saudi Arabia, where women aren’t allowed to drive, or maybe they are now, but whatever. And they’re not going to, like, make a huge stink, go in there and make a huge stink about it. But we do that here because we expect everybody to think the same way. And that’s just not realistic.

Alison: Yeah. And what you said when I said I was afraid of parties and you said, what are you afraid of? That question and that curiosity, I think saying that to someone that has a different idea than you is enough to start a conversation that is vulnerable?

Linda: Yes.

Alison: Do you know? It’s a great question. What are you afraid of? Could you give our listeners, because I really want them to read your book, but can you give our listeners a couple of tips about how to get over maybe going to a party or someone that has to speak in public? Is there something that they can do, like just a little tip?

Linda: I think the the tip that I love to give, and I think it’s so important that it was in chapter two of my book, like right up front is mental rehearsal visualization. So let’s say you’re going to a party, jean, I would say imagine how you would love to feel at that party. How would you love to feel in your body? How would you love to, like, express yourself? How would you love to like interact with the people around you? How would you like, like, what’s the expression on your face? Yeah. You know, how do you like, how does your voice sound? Like, what’s the energy that you’re exuding? And when you when you create this kind of visualization, you’re pre paving the way of it happening. And it gives you the image, the, the, the idea of how you can be and you can step into it.

Alison: What a different thing than saying this is going to be terrible.

Linda: Yes, it’s quite different. And but, I love that you bring that up because the thing is we’re always mentally rehearsing, but we’re often mentally rehearsing the things we don’t want.

Alison: Yes.

Jean: So excuse me. That is so true. We’re so accustomed to going to the negative, you know, and and somewhere in, in, uh, your writings, you said you have to stop and take time, take a pause. Because we’re on automatic. These fears are like, automatic. And it’s like, wait a second, I feel triggered. What’s going on here? Asking the questions, being curious.

Alison: And a negative self-talk.

Jean: And the negative self-talk.

Linda: Yeah yeah yeah.

Alison: Do you still have that voice in your head?

Linda: I have, I do have some voices that I like, just for a number of years I’ve been working with this particular line that goes through my head that I feel like finally, just this in the last couple of months, I’ve turned it around. And it is. Linda, you’re so slow.

Alison: Mhm.

Jean: I have the same thought. Linda.

Linda: You do?

Jean: I feel like I, I’m slow. I’m so I feel like I surround myself or have surrounded myself with very quick people and I feel I process things slower.

Alison: Is that what you’re saing?

Jean: Is that what you’re saying?

Linda: Well it’s like I felt like it took me four years to write my book. It’s taken me ten years to kind of like get my business, you know, organize the way I want it to be. It’s taking, you know, I just feel like I used to feel like everything took me more time. Takes everybody. Well, maybe not everyone. Just like you’re saying. Maybe not everyone. But it takes. You know, I listen to my husband and his business, and he and his brother who run it, uh, have a joke of, oh, if we think it’s going to take two months, it’s probably going to take two years, right?

Alison: Right. Yeah.

Linda: So the and but for a long time I couldn’t tell if that was a mean thought, if that was my inner critic or if that was just fact because it felt like fact to me. But I know it’s it’s not because and I think I was even writing about it in the book, but I still hadn’t kind of gotten a handle on it. I would say, okay, let’s I do something called the Best Friend test. You might have do some version of this where you say the sentence out loud that you think is an inner critic voice, and you put it in the same sentence as someone you care about. So I use my daughter Lexi. So, Lexi, you’re so slow. I wouldn’t say that to her.

Alison: No.

Linda: I would say if she said, I feel like I’m so slow, I’d say, well, actually, I would give her all the reasons why it could be a good thing. Like, maybe some things just take more time. Maybe you need to marinate on it. Maybe, you know, there’s some other pieces of information that you need before you can move forward. Or, you know, it can be any number of things that we can find the best way of feeling. But it is my commitment to always find the best way of feeling. It’s just like sometimes it’s slower.

Jean: I love that. That’s great Linda.

Alison: And I love that you said, uh, I didn’t know if it was fact or a bully in your brain. I wonder if I have said that to myself. Oh, that’s just a fact.  Alison, your whatever, you know, and that’s just a fact. Wow. I need to examine that, because that gave me chills when you said that. So that means that that’s something important for me. That’s fantastic. Linda. That’s great. And that’s true. I always try to think I. Jean, would never say that to me. My husband would never say that to me. My kid would never say, you know, you’re whatever. And I think, so why am I saying it?

Linda: Yeah. Yeah. You know, and this, this comes up like, right now I’m just finishing up a short program called Watch Yourself on Video without cringing, which is all about transforming the inner critic. And there are things that we see. I mean, what I love about it, again, the gift, the inner critic has a gift in it, in that it’s showing us what we need to resolve and do better. So there’s nothing like watching yourself on video to bring up all the things that you dislike, you know? Yeah, but you look the way you’re moving, the way you talk, whatever it is. Right? And so it’s an opportunity to examine those things and and see. So what I do is I sort I have people sort their complaints, their dislikes into the things that can be changed and the things that can’t. The Dalai Lama has this beautiful wisdom that says, if something can be remedied, why be unhappy? If something can’t be remedied, why be? What’s the use of being unhappy?

Jean: Yeah, leave it to the Dalai Lama.

Alison: Yeah.

Linda: Yeah.

Alison:  that’s a great quote.

Linda: And and and so at the end, I think it’s actually today, which is day nine, it’s a ten day program. Um, we’re looking at why we honor the inner critic for that very reason. Because without the inner critic, we wouldn’t realize that we’ve got stuff to work on.

Alison: Yeah, yeah. That’s right.

Jean: Exactly.

Alison: And can people find out about your programs on your website?

Linda: Oh, I wish they could do a better job of that. I wish I did a better job, but, you know, I’m slow.

Alison: I don’t even believe in time. So I don’t think you’re.

Linda: Maybe when it. When is this podcast coming out?

Alison: Oh. I don’t know.. Probably the end of the year.

Linda: Okay. So yes, they’ll be able to go to my website and find these things.

Alison: Okay, great.

Jean: Well, I think when you’re slow, you’re very thoughtful.

Alison: Me too. I don’t think they’re slow.

Jean: Yeah. You just really want to make sure everything is good.

Alison: Yes. That’s right.

Jean: I like that reframe. I like that very, very much. There’s one one other thing that I really wanted to bring up that I did talk about in the book, and I am talking about it in this class, and I want to bring it up here because it’s kind of like a bigger picture idea. That is, who benefits when we don’t like ourselves, who benefits when we are afraid to speak up?

Jean: Wow. That’s great.

Alison: No one.

Linda: Maybe someone, but it’s not us. It’s not the people that we’re serving. Maybe it’s the people who want us to behave, or want us to be controlled, or want us to buy things or… But it’s not us. And so I feel like it’s a radical act to learn to love ourselves and to empower ourselves.

Jean: Absolutely.

Alison: You’re dynamo. Huh?

Jean: Yeah.

Linda: Oh. Thank you. Great.

Alison: It’s really fun to talk to you.

Linda: It’s great talking to the two of you.  Oh, my gosh… This is such a treat.

Alison: Who benefits from me not liking myself. Not me!

Linda: And the thing is, it keeps us held in.  You know. So you know, I’m aging too. Zoom does a beautiful job. And, you know, perking us  up a little bit. I also put on a little makeup, but I, i suffer or have suffered from the changes of my body.  Um. And I think, why am I suffering when my daughter looks at me and she thinks I’m beautiful? When my husband finds me attractive, when other people light up because they’re, i’m their friend and they’re happy to see me. Why should I make myself unhappy about myself?

Jean: Exactly.

Alison: Yeah. You know, when my kid was really little and, um, uh,  ran up to me and grabbed me from the back and gave me a big hug and said, mom, I love your big, fat, beautiful bum.  and I gotta tell you, I loved my bottom so much that this little squirt of a person just grabbed it with so much love and didn’t, didn’t, didn’t have any judgment. Yeah, like there was nothing wrong in that.

Linda: And how did that change you? Like, how did how do you feel like you hold yourself and your awareness of your bum now.

Alison: Right. Want to see it? No, I’m just teasing. It’s I, you know, I, I really have not done anything to change my aging because I think I want my kids to see what someone looks like, an Italian person from the Bronx looks like when they’re 80. I just want I think it’s important and I and I don’t mind it … but but I know a lot of people that are like, you know, if you just did Botox, you could really if you just did this or that, and that’s good for them. If it makes someone happy, I love that. But for me, I don’t want to be, i’m not going to pressure someone not to do it, and I don’t want to be pressured to do it.  I want us all to be loved and respected where we’re at. And so I gotta tell you, when Em said that to me, it changed my view. Like, oh, I’m fine.

Linda: Absolutely, absolutely. And it’s kind of like, I feel like we’re we’re able to radiate our beauty. Yeah, we’re able to radiate our energy more when we don’t feel like we’re trying to hide in plain sight.

Jean: Right, right.

Alison: And I know a lot of people that have, have, have done things and they really look lovely. But I think the thing that they really look is confident again or like, um, glowy or more relaxed, like, I’m not sure it’s the fact that I respond to the fact that wrinkles are gone. I more respond to the fact that they did something that they wanted to do.

Linda: And and it gives them a sense of confidence and makes them feel more beautiful. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Alison: And good for it. You know, I think that that’s I think that’s so true. I love that best friend test.

Jean: Oh. And you and I do that for each other. Yes. If you can have a best friend that that you can say this is what I’m thinking and they can go wait a second here, why don’t you reframe it and, um, well, Linda, I feel like your book is it’s such a self love, spiritual book. It’s, uh, a coaching book. You know, you offer.. No matter what you’re where you’r what your bag of rocks are or whatever you absolutely give give a way to release that. Transform it. Yeah. So, um, we’re so grateful.

Alison: And we’re so grateful that you wrote it.

Linda: Well, thank you so much for having me on. So we can chat about these these ideas and transformations. It’s, you know, I feel like speaking, expressing ourselves is our human design.

Alison: Yeah.

Linda: You know, children love to speak. And I feel like that’s my passion. I want people to feel like, happy with their voices as they were when they were little kids.

Jean: Yes. that’s a Gorgeous mission.

Alison: That’s beautiful.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: And we just have two questions as we as we wrap up. And the first one is, is the name of our podcast is Inside wink. What do you think inside wink means?

Linda: To me it’s kind of like a sense of amusement.

Alison: Oh.

Linda: And and I would liken it to if I could, connect it with public speaking.

Alison: Mhm. Sure. Yeah.

Linda: That we can allow ourselves to be imperfect with that inside wink with that little like, forgot the word, forgot what I was going to say, lost my place, you can have an inside wink.

Alison: Oh I love that.

Linda: And and it helps you just like, know that not only is it okay that you made a mistake that you can handle it with. I mean, everyone makes mistakes. It’s how you handle it that makes a difference. And if you handle it with that sense of amusement, then you’re good to go. And also you make yourself so much more relatable because as humans, we that’s where we connect is with these frailties and and imperfections. They make great stories, right?

Alison: Yeah. That’s right.

Jean: Because we’re not all robots.

Alison: That’s right.

Linda: No, we’re not ChatGPT.

Alison: Oh no we’re not.

Jean: And my final question for you, Linda, is do you prefer cake, pie or ice cream?

Linda: Pie. If it’s fruit.

Alison: Oh, wait, you mean like, supposed to like like, uh, chocolate cream pie.

Linda: Exactly.

Jean: a custurd?

Linda: Oh, yeah. I like a custard. I have a pawpaw tree. And I was thinking, oh, I wonder if I could make, like, a pawpaw pie. Like a pumpkin pie. But, you know, as a custard. Yeah.

Alison: That sounds great. Okay, we’re coming over. We’re coming to Bedford.

Linda: You’re welcome. You’re welcome. Next time you’re in town, you gotta come over. I love cooking for people.

Alison: Really?

Linda: Yes.

Alison:  that’s like you, Jean .. She’s a great cook.

Jean: I used to. I don’t cook anymore. I mean, I don’t have, like, people…

Linda: Gene.

Jean: Yeah, yeah I know, thank you.

Linda: say thank you.

Alison: Linda, move in with us.

Jean: Honestly.

Linda: No disclaimers.

Jean: Thank you. Thank you. Allison. Thank you Linda.

Alison: Thank you Linda. Really. This is so much fun.

Jean: You are the delight in the light, as the light. Yeah.

Linda: Well, I, I, I hope to be swimming with, with all these, you know, wonderful people who are, you know, like yourselves who are looking to create a better world.

Alison: Oh. Thank you so much. And in a few years, when you write your next book, we’ll have you on again.

Linda: Okay.

Alison: I would love that.

Linda: Okay. There’s some motivation for me.

Alison: That’s right. Have a great evening there. And thank you so much.

Linda: And thank you as well. Bye Jean, bye, Alison.

Jean: Bye.

Alison: Bye.

Jean: What a lovely woman.

Jean: She was Is great. You know what, Allison? She reminds me so much of, um, the teachings that I learned at Science of Mind -about expressing to yourself why? You know, what’s going on underneath the fear, right? And it’s getting to the root of that rather than just pushing through it. Because Linda’s not about pushing through it, but uncovering what’s, what’s that core wound.

Alison: What’s at the root of it? Right. You know, the reveal and heal and then restoring safety and then repatterning your habits. Right? And I have to say a lot of times, because for me, fear is like, can grab me that sometimes I want to ignore it or push it away or act like, uh, give in to it. And this was just such a great way to remind myself that there’s other there’s other options out there, you know?

Jean: Yeah. And how good you feel after you do. Um, present yourself authentically. I think your life starts feeling richer And more fulfilled. And, um.

Alison: And she talks about thriving.

Jean: Exactly.

Alison: And I think what a great word. We don’t use that word enough. It’s all just like getting by. Let it be. Let it go. What about thriving.

Jean: And I really think that’s how we’re meant to live life. And, uh, so.

Alison: And letting go of, you know, working through these things, working through them because we’re worth it.

Jean: Yeah, We are worth having a life that we can thrive in and feel joy. Absolutely.

Alison: I think that’s I think that’s so important because sometimes you think, oh, is this it? Yeah. Is that all? Is that all there is? as  peggy Lee said I’m dating myself, but she. I thought she was fantastic, So please, please go out and read her book. Delight in the limelight. Even if you’re not like, like public speaking or in the limelight, right?

Jean: Because it really helps you just live a more enriched life.

Alison: Right? Right. Yeah, exactly. That was beautifully put, Jean.

Jean: Thank you. You too. Allison, I’m just looking at the cover of her book.. She’s so vivacious.

Alison: Isn’t she, like, spunky?

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: Yeah, like a spunkathon… Is that even a word? Well. Thank you. Have a great day. And thank you, Jean.

Jean: Thank you, alison.

Alison: Goodbye.

Jean: Bye.