Podcast Episode 81: Dr. Ellen Hendriksen

Alison: Hello? Yeah. Okay, great. We did it.

Jean: Very nice.

Alison: We did it. And we were enough. We were enough to do it.

Jean: We’re totally enough. And we’re not going to criticize ourselves or over evaluate.

Alison: That’s right. Wow. It has been a time. Huh? It’s been a time. A lot going on. And, um. You were saying you were so busy. I have been busy. It’s been a lot, right?

Jean: It has been.

Jean: And I don’t think we’re alone in that. A lot of people I talk to have, um, have been through a lot. Um, this has been. It feels like more has been packed into these past few months. And time has been going by so fast,

Alison: So fast.

Alison: I can’t even believe it. And that’s why when we had to read this book or wanted to read this. Well, no, it was a had, right? Because we always like to we always like to be prepared for the interview.

Jean: Sure.

Alison: But then as I read it, I actually couldn’t put it down because it’s how to be enough. Right.

Jean: Self acceptance for Self Critics and Perfectionists.

Alison: By Ellen Hendriksen. And I have to say, it’s it’s a lot going on in this book. There is a lot of tips and stories and I ideas about perfectionism, procrastination, values, how to move into self-forgiveness, self-awareness, stop listening to a voice in your head. And and it’s all very I felt it was all so relatable. My entire book is marked up.

Jean: I think I said that to you. I said, oh, she wrote a book for us, Alison. Yeah. And and even though we just said there’s so much in this great book, it’s not a clinical, dry book by any means.

Alison: It’s fun.

Jean: It is a fun. Inspiring and aha moment type book.

Alison: Yeah, I can’t wait to talk to her.

Jean: Yes!

Alison: Because she talks a lot about herself in the book and about her own perfectionism and procrastination and all those feelings. So it’s going to be exciting to actually meet her for me.

Jean: Yeah, yeah.

Alison: Are you ready?

Jean: I’m absolutely ready.

Alison: Here we go. Ellen Hendrickson.

Alison: Hi.

Ellen: Hi.

Jean: Hi, Ellen.

Ellen: How are you?

Alison: We’re very good. I’m so happy to talk to you.

Ellen: Me? I’m excited to talk to you. I’m so impressed that you’re in the same room. I love that you record literally together. That’s fantastic.

Alison: We hang out a lot.

Ellen: I love it.

Jean: People say that, Ellen, that when we come together, they’re always like, oh, look at you two together.

Ellen: And yeah, I was expecting two different screens, but here you are. I love it.

Alison: You always seem to dress alike.

Ellen: Well, I clearly didn’t get the memo because I’m in i’m in a different color. That’s okay.

Jean: That’s a great color on you.

Alison: I’m so happy to talk to you.

Ellen: Great. I’m happy to talk to you. Let’s talk.

Alison: Okay. So how to be enough? This was such an intense and yet wonderful read for me this book. First, I think…. Do you have children?

Ellen: I do, I have, uh, two boys, 14 and 17.

Alison: And they’re who you dedicated the book to.

Ellen: Yes, yes, that’s exactly right.

Alison: So I have two kids, and when I was reading the beginning of your book, I had anxiety come up.

Ellen: Oh, no. I’m sorry.

Alison: I know, no, it’s it’s fascinating. I had some anxiety come up that I was not a good enough mom because you lay out genetics, setting…

Ellen: Mhm.

Alison: And I thought that was fascinating that in a book about how to be enough…. I’m feeling like not enough already.

Ellen: Well hopefully I gave you some tools to stop feeling that way.

Alison: By the end, by the end everything is dog eared and it’s  a fascinating journey to feel like to go from that to this. Can you describe, can you describe a little bit of that, how we how we begin to feel like we need perfectionism in our own lives and then how we can move away from that?

Ellen: Yeah, absolutely. Um, do you want me to talk about sort of where perfectionism Comes from, like the origins. Sure, sure. Okay, well, here, let me let me do a 30,000 foot view and give folks a definition of perfect or like at least my working definition of perfectionism. And I find this actually kind of hilarious because there are several definitions in the research world out there. And I think it’s funny that people who do this for a living, you know, including myself, can’t agree on a perfect definition of perfectionism. So the one, the one that I like to use is that it’s a tendency to demand more of ourselves than the situation requires. And the reason I like that definition is because you can look at it two different ways. There’s two sides of that coin on the one side, please keep demanding of yourself more than the situation requires. That’s how we shoot for the stars. That’s how we hit home runs. That’s how we insert tortured metaphor here. That’s but that’s how we do a lot of good work. So yeah, don’t don’t stop doing that. And then also the Heart of that healthy kind of perfectionism is conscientiousness, which, according to researchers, is the number one personality trait for both objective and subjective success in life. So please keep doing that.

Ellen: But perfectionism, tendency to demand more of ourselves than the situation requires can also kind of tip over into being a referendum on our character. Where it goes wrong is where it tips over into how when our evaluation of our performance and I use performance very loosely, that could mean grades. That could mean how clean we keep our house. That could mean how good a parent was i today, could mean how much money we brought in this year. Lots of ways to measure performance. Did I eat clean today? Uh, that when we when we tip over into something called overvaluation, that’s when our evaluation of our performance, uh, kind of overgrows and becomes an evaluation of ourselves as a person. It becomes a referendum on our character. So that’s that’s where perfectionism can turn unhealthy. Okay. That’s my my 30,000 foot view. Uh, in terms of where it comes from, you’re absolutely right. You mentioned genetics. So the cutting edge of science is looking like it’s going to tell us that there are there’s definitely a genetic element to perfectionism. It also can come from the, you know, the way we were raised. So our early childhood experiences. And I want to say that you can come out of any family perfectionistic. There’s nothing, you know, we’re not restricted to a certain type of family.

Ellen: But, uh, the sort of OG perfectionism researchers Gordon Flett and Paul Hewitt tell us that there are four types of families that we are where we are more likely to come out perfectionistic, and that is in families where we just we just get perfectionism modeled for us. There’s high standards, high pressure. A second type is where love is contingent upon performance. That love and pride kind of get confused, and we get lots of attention and and positive regard when we deliver, when we perform, and we end up mistaking that for love. Then there are the families where they’re sort of like helicopter or snowplow. Uh, it’s the families that remind me sort of, of the character of Marlin in Finding Nemo, where he says, I’m never going to let anything happen to you. And then Dory comes up and says, but then nothing will ever happen to him. So. Exactly. And then finally, the fourth type of family is sort of a a chaotic, uh, dramatic, erratic family where then kids will double down on performance in order to have a sense of control. Understandably, they may sort of unconsciously or unconsciously think, well, you know, I can’t control dad’s drinking, but I can control my grades or I can’t control, you know, mom’s mood swings and temper….

Ellen: But I can be bubbly and the most popular person in school. So it comes from genetics families. But I find perfectionism to be particularly fascinating because it also comes from all around us. It comes from the environment. It’s conferred from our surroundings, and every human reacts to the situations we’re put in. And so when we’re put in an environment that is has low tolerance of mistakes, like mistakes are not allowed, and if we make a mistake, we are harshly criticized and punished. Of course, we’re going to respond with some perfectionism. So this is called a perfectionistic climate. The researcher Andrew Hill coined this term and when he first coined the term, he sort of meant like the highest levels of women’s gymnastics, like climates like that. But honestly, I think all of 2025, all of American culture or Western culture has sort of become a perfectionistic climate. Social media is certainly a perfectionistic climate. So when we are put in a culture that expects us to perform and achieve and consume to ever higher levels just to be sufficient as a person, of course we’re going to respond by not feeling good enough. So yeah, genetics, family, but also just the water we swim in. But yes, that was a very long answer.

Jean: that was great because I think for most of us we can check all of them off.

Alison: Yeah.

Jean: A little bit of each, you know, and, um.

Alison: It’s so true.

Jean: Yeah. So I love in the beginning of your book, you compare, um, Mister Rogers, fred Rogers to uh, Walt Disney.

Ellen: I loved writing that. That was so fun.

Jean: I thought that was so clever. Can you talk about that with our listeners?

Ellen: Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, Walt Disney and Fred Rogers, they’re they’re both titans of children’s entertainment. They’re, you know, what they created is both beloved and immortal. And they actually had remarkably similar personalities. They both had really high standards. They were both quite intense. They both had really strong work ethics. They both focused on the details, but they really lived those traits and values very differently. So just for example, let’s look at how they approached mistakes. So in the book, like I tell the story of Mister Rogers, you know, there was a show where he, as usual, was changing from his blazer to his cardigan, and then as he was singing the song and the cameras were rolling, he realized that he was one button off like that he had buttoned his sweater wrong, and everybody on the crew, knowing his standards, expected him to call cut and to Refilm, but instead he just rebuttons the sweater, and he remarks to the camera that, you know, mistakes happen and they can be corrected. And by contrast, I tell the story of Walt Disney’s micromanagement of the making of Snow White, where he, you know, he can’t bring himself to trust this world class team of artists that he’s hired, and he makes them redo tiny details like the Queen’s eyebrows are too extreme, Grumpy’s finger is too big. And at the premiere, he even tells a reporter, I wish I could yank it back and do it all over again. So, you know, Disney’s high standards were, like, rigidly focused on avoiding mistakes, but Mr. Rogers flexibly folded mistakes into his high standard, so I thought that was a really interesting foil, a combination that these folks are the same and extremely different.

Alison: Right? Right. And I think what’s interesting too is you, you you go back to Mr. Rogers at the end. And that was just so sweet. I don’t want to give it away because I want people to book, but it’s the ending is so sweet when the interviewer comes to interview him.

Ellen: Mhm.

Alison: Um, I think what was interesting to me is um,  procrastination.

Ellen: Oh yeah.

Alison: And perfectionism, because they sound like they would not be mixing.

Ellen: Right.

Alison: Like, you know, can you, can you, because that part I was like, wow, that is so true. Can you talk a little bit about that for us?

Ellen: Yeah. For sure. Yeah, that is quite counterintuitive, that procrastination and perfectionism go together because I would say most of us think that procrastination is a time management problem. But the the-  I’m a big nerd, so, you know, the papers that I read and the research that I looked at really showed that it’s more of an emotion regulation problem and perfectionism drives procrastination because aversive tasks, like things we just don’t want to do, require quite a bit of self-regulation. Like we have to sort of psych ourselves up to, to focus. We have to, uh, be we don’t have to be ready, but, um, it takes a lot of self-regulation to, to go tackle something that’s like yucky or boring or tedious, and self-regulation deteriorates under emotional distress. So, when we feel distressed and overwhelmed and paralyzed because our standards are super high and unrealistic and unforgiving. Like, for instance, we might feel like we have to do the whole task in one go, or we have to feel, we feel like we have to, um, complete it without struggling or do overs, and we have to, like our first draft has to be our final draft. Procrastination steps in as a coping mechanism because it it’s a double whammy because it allows us to both avoid the task that’s making us feel bad and immediately, immediately replace it with something that makes us feel better. So wow, not only do I not have to, for me, like, write my newsletter this week, I can scroll TikTok and look at look at dog videos. This is great. So it’s it. Yeah. You’re to go full circle, uh, counterintuitively, yeah, we would think that people with perfectionism would be focused and all in and striving hard every minute. But really, uh, perfect Procrastination creeps in quite a bit.

Alison: Then how did you finish this book?

Ellen: Yeah. Yeah I that’s a that’s a great question. Yeah. No I think finally I think it is it is…. Well actually we could get into this. Um, so it, I valued what I was doing enough that that the meaning and the purpose and honestly, the fun I do enjoy writing, overrode those initial negative emotions of feeling overwhelmed or paralyzed. And honestly, I broke it down into little teeny tiny steps. And that, that is that is a classic trick. But I think it bears repeating that if we’re feeling overwhelmed, you know, break it down into little teeny tiny steps and nobody has to know how small your steps are. I tell the story in the book. I was working with the banana guy, this lovely client who had diabetes, and he was trying to motivate himself to get to the gym. And so we broke it down into little teeny tiny steps. And his first step was peel a banana. It wasn’t even eat the banana, it was peel the banana. And this sent him onto, you know, a cascade of steps of peel the banana, eat the banana, like, because that would fuel his workout. You find car keys, you know. Et cetera. Et cetera. Et cetera. And it was, the trick is to break things down into steps that are so small you feel no resistance. So for me, with writing, if I told myself, okay, well, I’m going to break it down into like day by day, but like, write for eight hours is still super overwhelming. And so, you know, if I break it down into, okay, write for 15 minutes, I can do that, that’s fine. And then then oftentimes the dirty little secret is that once you get started, usually momentum keeps you going. Not always, but you know, and then you can just break it down again. Uh, and so break it down until you feel no resistance.

Alison: That’s great. Yeah.

Jean: That is great. Um, I was looking at my notes, trying to see the lady’s, your client, maybe you changed her name?

Ellen: I definitely changed her name. Yeah.

Jean: I love that you shared this story. I could so relate because the same thing sort of happened to me was she was caretaking for her mom… Um, and she went on vacation.

Alison: Yeah.

Ellen: Mhm.

Jean: Right. And she couldn’t forgive herself.

Ellen: Mhm.

Jean: Right. She was like, she had this high standard, right, coupled with you know… And you give so many, by the way Ellen your examples are great…

Alison: Are so great.

Ellen: Like they’re they’re from real life. These are real people and and I, I am of a firm belief that if one person has experienced something, probably a thousand people have experienced the same thing. So I find that in the very specific individual stories is really a universal lesson.

Jean: Right, right. Yeah. And this particular woman really had a hard time letting go that she made a mistake. And the the chapter you write about, I think it’s human’s fail… Like we’re, just,we do– we’re going to happen, and you say something like, just expect it, because we do fail… Right, right.

Ellen: And yeah, I mean it’s it’s very messy.

Jean: Yeah.

Ellen: Human for sure. Um, yeah. The. Yeah. The woman you talk about.  Was caretaking for her, uh, ill mother, and everybody pressured her to take a break. She was all in on caretaking, and perfectionism tends to be sort of all or nothing. And she was definitely in all mode. And, uh, so even her mother, you know, said, go take a vacation. And so she, she went away with her boyfriend. And then things went wrong at, at home. And her mother was kind of never the same. Like she had had an allergic reaction to a new medication. And yeah, my client was ten years later, or 15 years later, was still struggling with forgiving herself. And and so we yeah, we worked a lot on, um, making room for mistakes, but also just self-compassion. So the those of us who have a streak of perfectionism are often quite hard on ourselves, you know, for sometimes for years and years and years. And so that’s because self-compassion, uh, consists of, you know, being kind to ourselves, to being mindful of our emotions and, you know, in the moment and our, our perfectionistic brains are sort of reverse threaded for, for, for both of these things. So, um, it can be hard and can feel wrong to be kind to ourselves or to, um, pay attention or not even– okay, to allow ourselves to have the self-critical thoughts that we’re kind of wired for.

Ellen: Like, just like, you know, some brains are more optimistic or pessimistic or some brains are more introverted or extroverted. You know, those of us with some perfectionism are just wired to be a little more self-critical. But that doesn’t mean we have to take those self-critical thoughts seriously or literally. Like just because we think it. It’s like that bumper sticker like, don’t believe everything you think. And so, um, so learning to be mindful of thoughts and saying, hey, I oh, this is what my brain does. Oh, this is how I’m wired. Oh, this is how I talk to myself when things like this happen, you know, can definitely be counterintuitive but is extremely useful. So I mean, I’ll use myself as an example. Actually, this is okay. I will predict that after, you know, after I get off any kind of interview, anything involving a microphone, anything that involves me hitting send and like my work goes out into the world, I, my brain just starts to go and it’s like, ah, why did I say it that way? Like I said, too much or like, oh, I didn’t say enough or like, oh, I think, I think I like monopolize that.

Ellen: Like, I like my brain just keeps starts going. I think a lot of us can probably relate to that in, in different scenarios. And so I have, uh, worked hard to try to chalk that up to just that’s, that’s how my brain works. Like, this is what happens. It’s just part of the script, like, just kind of like when you go to a restaurant, there’s a script, like you are seated by the hostess and you’re given a menu and you, you know, you order your food and it comes and you eat and then you pay and then you leave. Like, that’s just the script that happened. So for me, I do something involving a microphone. And I know we have a lovely conversation. And then I turn it off and then I start to criticize myself. It’s just what happens. And so I don’t have to take it seriously. I can treat it like I treat the music at a coffee shop or the the Muzak at the grocery store. It’s there. I can hear it. It’s not going away. But I don’t have to, like, sing along. Like, I don’t have to believe the lyrics. Literally. So that’s that’s been helpful for me in terms of self-compassion.

Alison: So much like what you just described, you should just hang out with us because we are like, oh, the thing I like, I’ll say, Jean, remember when we talked about this thing and I said that other thing? What? I didn’t mean it that way. Did it sound like this? And then also in your book, you talk about and this is when I like had to reread it many time, you talk about if someone says to me, hey, can you, uh, pick up XY for me at this time, I feel I have to say yes.

Ellen: Mhm mhm.

Alison: Otherwise, my self-worth is really diminished.

Ellen: Sure.

Alison: That’s like the fact that you brought that up. It’s just very powerful. Don’t– like, like what do you do? Like can you give our listeners ideas about that?

Ellen: Yeah. Yeah I think I think what you’re referring to is that, that people with perfectionism, uh, love rules. So. Yeah. And and so it makes sense. You know, rules reduce uncertainty. Uncertainty drives anxiety. So rules reduce anxiety. Cool. I’ll take that. That sounds good to me. And so, you know, we want to know the rules so we can follow them. Uh, and I don’t know if you do this. I certainly do this. If there are no rules, then we make up personally demanding rules and then follow those. So like think about making up rules for training for A 5K or making up rules for healthy eating or, you know, whatever we’re trying to do. And, you know, please keep setting goals, please, you know, please keep doing that. That’s not necessarily bad. But when we make those rules rigid so we apply them no matter the situation. Like we try to follow our healthy eating plan even on Halloween. Uh, if we apply them as all or nothing, you know, we we can the, um, are the criteria for adequate is set at flawless right then, and so if we screw up, it renders us unacceptable, and you didn’t mention this, but if, like if we impose our rules on other people, then it can certainly get in the way of our relationships. So rules inherently are not bad. But when they get rigid all or nothing and we impose them on other people, then they can certainly get in the way. So, um, in the book I tell of a client who I love this quote, she said, “through a combination of God and my mother, I was taught to be generous.”

Alison: Right?

Ellen: But but that meant for her that if a neighbor asked her to babysit, if a, you know, unhoused person on the street asked her for money like she had to do it. So I think that gets into your comment about if somebody asks you for a favor, you feel like you have to. So for her, generosity was functioning as a rule, like it was something she had to do. But if we think about generosity as, and I’ll introduce a new term here, as a value, then there’s a difference between feeling like we have to do something and us choosing to do something. Like in the in the generosity example, you know, our generosity should be freely chosen. And the very spirit of generosity is is that giving, it’s not the it’s not having to to do something. So we can try to shift from asking ourselves, do I, do I have to do this like, am I, do I feel like I do I feel obliged or dutiful or coerced even? Or am I choosing to do this? And and even if it’s something that we do actually have to do, like pay our taxes or, you know, whatever, like then is there something in there that we can choose? Can we find an element of choice within our actions? Because there’s a big difference in terms of how we feel, rather between feeling again coerced, that we have to do this, versus I choose to do this right.

Jean: It’s like an empowerment, when you can actually realize, this is what I’m choosing versus feeling coerced

Alison: And just the idea of values too, like what is meaningful in my life? And how can I relate that to a situation which I love when you talk about that, I thought that was I thought that was great.

Jean: And yeah, and I think a lot of people, I’ll just speak for myself like, you feel guilty.

Ellen: Of course.

Jean: When you really don’t want to do something, but you feel like, oh, I’m, I’m the one that always shows up. I’m the one that always.

Ellen: Mhm.

Jean: brings dessert or the joy. Like uh you know, so I, I think well you say it in your B title on the book self-acceptance. Um and Becoming aware, I think Alison and I are both on a journey of becoming more aware of our conditioned way of being, and more coming from a place of authenticity.

Ellen: Mhm. Mhm.

Jean: Um, and there’s, it’s a little scary sometimes to change up the rules, like when you.

Ellen: Absolutely.  Yeah. If we think of ourselves as, uh, like a label, like I’m the caretaker or I’m like you said, I’m the one who always shows up. I’m the supermom. I’m  the smart one. Then it’s really hard not to be that. It’s really hard to to have to choose actions that don’t seem like they’re in line with that. But then what happens is that our labels, which might be, might be of our own choosing, but are usually imposed by either other people or a society or our gender, then then that it takes the element of choice out of it if we have to do things because of the label assigned to us, whereas if we follow a value, then again that that choice comes into play. So I’ll here, I’ll do a brief tangent on what a value is, because I feel like that’s a word that gets thrown around a lot but doesn’t often get like really defined. So this is um, the this I took this from Michael Touhig and Clarissa Ong, who wrote a wonderful book called The Anxious Perfectionist. And they describe a value as having four qualities. So one, a value is continuous. So you are never done living a value. It’s different than a goal because a goal you can check off on a list. So like making $1 million is not a value, but like wealth or financial security is, it’s you can always go, you know going to Boston is is a goal.

Ellen: But going east is the metaphorical value. Okay. So that’s one. Two is that your values are intrinsically meaningful, meaning you would care about it even if nobody else knew. So it’s it’s something that really you care about. It’s not something you’re performing for other people. Three is a value is under your control. It’s not contingent upon anyone else. So being loved is actually not a value, but being loving to others is. That’s something you can control. And then this gets into what we were talking about before, is that values are freely chosen. So values are never coercive or obligatory, and we freely choose to follow them and are even likely to tolerate some discomfort or inconvenience in order to follow our values. So an example that I give is that like a value of giving back might be why you’re willing to give up your Saturday morning to go volunteer to pick up trash on a beach or, you know, work at a soup kitchen rather than spending the day like relaxing at the beach or like making making soup yourself. So so that that sense of values being freely chosen is what really differentiates them from rules or from having to act in accordance with your label. So, um, if, if we and here… Okay, so and one more thing I realized this is a very long answer too, um, when we’re following our values, you know, if we as we switch from rules to values or labels to values, we might not actually do anything overtly differently on the surface, it may just be sort of driven by a different force underneath. So an example I like to give for that is, um, oftentimes we feel like we have to be a good friend. So that could be our label. I’m the good friend. Or that could be a rule. I have to be a good friend. Okay. If we’re operating that way, there are certain things I have to do. I have to remember their birthday. I have to ask them detailed questions about their life. I have to maybe surprise them with their favorite coffee order when we go for a walk. And so, you know, none of those things are bad, those are lovely, please keep doing those. But what gets in the way is that that have to, that sense of duty and obligation and coercion and that, you know, can make our friendships feel contingent or make them feel sort of like a people pleasing grind. So if we shift to a value of, say, being attentive or being supportive, and then we are freely choosing to run towards those values, we might still remember their birthday. We might still ask them detailed questions about their life, we might still surprise them about their favorite coffee order, but the quality of the experience changes and it feels like a choice rather than a should. And that makes all the difference.

Alison: That reminds me too,  first of all, that was great.

Jean: We love quality of experience.

Ellen: Yes.

Alison: And we love your long answers.

Ellen: Cool. I have more of them if you want them.

Jean: It’s so juicy.

Alison: Yeah, I loved your Mad Libs. Oh, I thought they were great. So can you, uh, can you talk about that, that those great Mad Libs that you have, because I think you also do it in your first book, right?

Ellen: Yeah, yeah. So the first book is about social anxiety and, um, social anxiety is, yeah, we’ll do we’ll do a quick tangent on social anxiety because I think that’s highly relatable, and perfectionism and social anxiety are, you know, maybe not twins but are definitely close cousins. Uh, or to mix my metaphors, the perfectionism is is sort of the beating heart of social anxiety. Uh, okay. Anyway, so, um, yeah, the Mad Libs, they’re for social anxiety. Is that people… It will become obvious to everyone that I am, you know, blank, so insert, uh, aspect of self here And they will judge and reject me for it, basically. So, uh, social anxiety that that aspect of self, the it will become obvious to everyone that I am blank and then they’ll judge and reject me, for it, usually falls into one of four categories. So it’s either our appearance so people will see that I’m, um, underdressed or ugly or, um, my nose is weird, something like that. Or the second category is the signs of anxiety itself. So people will notice that my hands are shaking.

Ellen: People will notice my voice is quavering. People will notice that I’m blushing and they’ll think I’m weird, or they’ll think I’m a pervert or whatever. Okay, um, the third is, um, is social skills. That’s right. I haven’t thought about this in a little while because I’ve been talking about perfectionism for so long. So the third is social skills. People will think that I am awkward people, it will become obvious that I have nothing to say. It will become clear that I’m boring and they’ll judge and reject me for it. And then the fourth category is sort of our overall character. So like, people will see that I’m a loser. People will see that I’m a failure, people will see I’m incompetent or incapable. And and so that’s that’s the Mad Libs of social anxiety. And it’s the it all boils down to we think there’s something wrong with us, that there’s an aspect of ourselves that will be judged, rejected or criticized by others. And so we work really hard to conceal it and avoid situations where it might be revealed.

Alison: And then in this book.

Ellen: Yes. Thank you for bringing us back.

Alison: So In this book, i love the way you’re like, um, I’m a I’m a very neat person, but sometimes I leave my socks on the floor.

Ellen: Yes, yes.

Alison: And or like, I’m, I’m, um, I’m very conscious of, uh, eating healthy. And sometimes I’ll eat a bag of Oreos or something.

Ellen: Exactly.

Alison: But, you know, like, like that, and that felt so freeing to me.

Ellen: Yeah, it moves us from either or, again, those of us with perfectionism are often kind of all or nothing. And so here we, when we moved to both and, with the Mad Libs, we get to retain our overall idea of ourself as a good person. But to make room for the inevitable mistakes and struggles and do overs of life. So yeah, I um. Okay, and the reason I think that’s important the making room for mistakes, making room for errors is because, that’s different than lower your standards. Because I feel like the the the traditional advice for people with perfectionism is, you know, you really have to lower your standards or like, you know, like that’s good enough. And I understand the, the, the well-meaning part of that advice. And if you’ve ever told someone with perfectionism to lower their standards, they will bristle. They will not, that is not going to go over well because, of that overlap between, you know, evaluating performance and evaluating ourselves. If we are kind of stuck in that over evaluation, suggesting that we settle for subpar or mediocre performance means that we’re subpar or mediocre, we’re not going to do that. Forget it. So allowing ourselves to to do some both. And yeah, of I’m a diligent person who sometimes slacks off. I’m a great parent who sometimes loses my temper. I’ve arrived, I’ve made it, and I’m still seeking. We can again retain that that fundamental good overall idea of ourself and make some room for mistakes.

Alison: Yeah, I love that.

Jean: It reminds me of your story in your book about the doctor who misdiagnosed a child.

Ellen: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Jean: And you, Ellen, you talk about giving that space between. What did you say? You say like you’re-  i did something, okay? I didn’t do this, but I’m not that, like, don’t make it personal just because I made a mistake.

Ellen: Ah, yes yes yes yes.

Jean: I am not the Mistake.

Ellen: Right, right, right. Yeah. There’s a there’s a big difference between saying like, I made that mistake versus I made that mistake. Like when the emphasis is on us, when we turn our spotlight, you know, towards ourselves, we’re going to feel more shame or guilt or just general sort of negative emotions. People with perfectionism tend to be a little bit shame prone. It doesn’t mean that shame is, I don’t want to say not real, i don’t want to gaslight anybody, but there it’s that’s just how we’re wired. We’re just wired to sometimes feel a little bit more shame than the typical person. And so that because we tend to say “I” made that mistake as opposed to the I made that mistake and turn our spotlight towards the performance. So yes, the the story you’re referring to is, um, I had a client who was a pediatrician, and she had been a pediatrician for many years, storied career, I think 25 years, and by all accounts was excellent at her job. And she came into session one day and was just beside herself and was saying things like, maybe I should retire early, maybe I should get my brain examined. I think I’m slipping because she had misdiagnosed a little girl and said, you know, I think this is just constipation. But she ended up having appendicitis and had to go to the emergency room. She was fine. Everything was okay. But again, my client was just just like being so hard on herself. And so we talked about, okay, over the course of a 25 year career, how many misdiagnoses are you going to make? The answer can’t be zero.

Ellen: And just making room for even just like 1%, half a percent is so much that gives you so much more wiggle room than zero. Like, yeah, even if the answer is teeny tiny, as long as it’s not zero, that’s really what matters. So, you know, and we can apply that to anything. How many times am I going to have an awkward silence? Like how many awkward silences will I have on a first date? The answer can’t be zero. How many times will I say, um while recording a podcast? The answer can’t be zero. Uh, how many B’s am I going to get? Or C’s am I going to get over the course of my academic career? Answer can’t be zero. And that creates just a little bit of wiggle room for the inevitable struggles of life and being human. And with the going back to the pediatrician, I would argue we shouldn’t tell her to lower her standards. That would that would not be appropriate, I think. So not only would it not go over well, but we don’t want to say like, oh, you know, it’s your diagnoses are good enough. So yeah, no, you wouldn’t want to tell, you know, airline pilot or a surgeon, you know, you’re not going to say good enough, but making room for like inevitable mistakes that can often be corrected is a much better way to go.

Jean: I mean, that’s so yeah, like some of these professions, the two we just, you know, a doctor and an airline pilot.

Alison: Yeah.

Jean: I mean that’s that’s high.

Ellen: Yeah. You can’t lower your standards, you know.

Alison: No. Right. You can’t. Can you tell me? You. You know, you’re very honest about how you’re a perfectionist. And so what was the hardest thing for you to change about yourself or work through after doing this book? Like. Or was it all just like, whew, easy.

Ellen: Oh I wish. Uh, yeah, I think. Okay. Um, my yeah, I’m a pretty classic perfectionistic person. I was definitely holding that mindset of my self-evaluation. My self-worth is overly dependent on meeting those personally demanding standards I held for myself. And so throughout my life, I was definitely conflating what I did with who I was. And that changed as like as I aged and what is important in what stage of life changed. So for example, in high school I really overidentified with my grades in college and as a young adult, the focus is on social behavior, and that happens to be, I think, when my social anxiety was at its highest because I’m like, oh, I can’t, you know, I can’t make social mistakes. I have to be cool. I have to be funny. There was no room for social error when I was launching my career. I was overly focused on productivity. Like, did I get everything on the list done? And so, you know, that’s already not great. But I was also doing three more things that I think made my life harder. One was we talked about this before, that my only two options were all or nothing. So if I got straight A’s except for one 87, like it disqualified all those other A’s and like put me at nothing or like in my, in my productivity like era… Um, if even if I got, you know, a bunch of things done on my to do list, but 1 or 2 got left undone, it rendered the whole day not good enough. So that’s one thing. The second thing that was making my life harder was that I would focus on flaws and details.

Ellen: So it’s the equivalent of focusing on the one frowning face in the sea of smiles, even if everything else goes well. Like the detail of what went wrong is what I would focus on afterwards. And that third eye was really hard on myself, you know. I did set that standard for adequate at flawless. And so when I inevitably fell short of my personally demanding standards, you know, not because I was inadequate or incapable, but because I’m a person like I, um, I was really hard on myself. And the worst part is that if I pulled out all the stops and somehow, like, actually met my personally demanding standards, I would decide that those standards were insufficiently demanding in the first place and move the goalposts. So don’t do any of those things. Um, so I think the heart of most of it was the over evaluation was confusing what I do with who I am and so trying to separate those out. Yeah, make some room for mistakes. Uh, focus on a bigger picture was really hard. But ultimately I feel like is what was most helpful to me. Am I still perfectionistic? Yes, of course, but I feel like I am the more adaptive kind of perfectionism now. I like to think I’m more of the Mister Rogers perfectionism than the Walt Disney perfectionism. Do I still have my moments and, you know, like, sometimes I’m really hard on myself. Or sometimes I, uh, perseverate over a mistake I made, of course. But I think ironically, that’s that’s part of how this works. I am an imperfect perfectionist.

Alison: Yeah, a work in progress.

Ellen: Absolutely. And always will be. As as will be all. Yeah.

Jean: And thank goodness we have self-acceptance. And this book.

Alison: Is so great.

Jean: has So many great tools.  I mean, honestly, Ellen, we could spend so much time talking with you. Um, going over every chapter, you really get in deep, uh, about self-criticism and perfectionism. But, um, anyway, I hope we touched on some real juicy favorite parts, and I, um, so we’re going to wrap up, right?

Ellen: Sure. I’m delighted you liked it. That’s wonderful.

Alison: Loved it.

Jean: Loved it. Yes. So consider yourself. You got an A plus.

Ellen: Yeah.

Ellen: My my the my inner grade grubber. My past, past life grade grubber. Really appreciate that. Thank you.

Alison: Yeah. So, um, we are wondering what you think inside wink means?

Ellen: Yeah. Of course I thought I like that you asked this because. Okay, I don’t remember the name of the game, but there’s a there’s a game where, like you don’t we make up definitions of words…. I think it’s called balderdash. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it reminded me of that. So I was like, oh, I get to play a game. Um, okay. So inside wink uh, makes me think of, uh, sort of like a, like a self-assured wink where we wink to communicate to somebody else, like, hey, I got this or or, hey, let me handle this. But I think when you add inside to it, it feels like we’re, you know, doing that to ourselves. Like, I got this. Let me handle it. It feels like self-assurance or like confidence in one’s own abilities to stay on brand. I feel like it’s a cousin to self-acceptance. So that’s that is my balderdash definition of inside wink.

Alison: I love that, and it could mean you’re enough.

Ellen: Yeah. That’s true. Thank you. Yeah, I yes, what you said.

Alison: I love that. That’s perfect. That’s a perfect definition I love that.

Ellen: Fantastic.

Jean: Great. Okay. And for the final question, which is.

Ellen: Most important, yes.

Jean: Hundred thousand dollars is, um, cake pie or ice cream? Which do you prefer.

Ellen: Sure. I thought I actually thought about this for an inordinately long amount of time. So. So my the answer that I finally settled on was all three, but never together. So my family thinks I’m crazy because I have just never liked alamode. Uh, like, I love pie, you know? Love a good piece of cake, but I just do not want ice cream on top. That is, I never, never shall they meet. So call me a purist. Call me a perfectionist. But, uh, all three, but never together.

Alison: I. I think you might be an original.

Ellen: Okay. Yeah,

Jean:  I love that you said that.

Ellen: Oh, there we go.

Alison: So we’ll get three dishes when you come over.

Ellen: That’s absolutely. That sounds good to me.

Jean: And we’ll put them on opposite sides of the table.

Alison: That’s right.  Thank you so much for talking to us. You really are just so much fun and interesting.

Jean: yes. Thank you.

Ellen: Oh,  You are both delightful. Thank you so much for having me on and asking such great questions.

Alison: And congratulations,  I’m giving this as Christmas gifts.

Jean: Yes.

Ellen: Oh, wow.

Jean: Yeah…I was telling my friend,  Renee about this book, and she said, Jean, can you send me one? And I said, I have an extra copy.,

Ellen: Phenomenal.

Alison: Thank you.

Ellen: Oh. Thank you. That warms my heart.

Alison: And have a great day.

Ellen: You too. Take care. Thanks for having me on.

Alison: Bye.

Jean: Bye.

Alison: Oh my goodness. Right?

Jean: She hit it out of the park.

Alison: Yeah. And she. First of all, I love how. Because when you read the book, you think, oh, this woman is really got it together. And then she’s so honest in the book about how sometimes she doesn’t and her personality is so authentic and out there, she’s like, oh wait, let me get that. You know, I love that when people are just human and not and not like all polishy.

Jean: No, no no, no, she she was warm… And as you can hear from the interview, warm and welcoming and and funny. And I think she just exudes like this… Um, it’s all okay… Just accept it, you know? And, uh, what a great doctor to sit with her and go over your.

Alison: I should have said that, doctor Ellen Hendriksen. That’s true. Exactly.

Jean: Um, yeah.

Alison: she’s great. And I felt too like for me, this book, um, she does a whole thing about how to move things from your head, thought to your heart, and to let go of your rules and, um.

Jean: Rewriting your script.

Alison: Right.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: Right.

Jean: Um.

Alison: Which is something you and I talk about a lot.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: Just in our friendship.

Jean: Right. And reframing and, uh, a way to look at things. So this is this was this was one of my favorite books.

Alison: It’s excellent. It’s an excellent book. So we’re going to tell you you are enough. But I know you don’t believe us. So read the book, How to Be Enough, by Doctor Ellen Hendriksen.

Jean: Exactly.

Alison: I think that’s.

Jean: Beautiful. You nailed it. It was perfect, Allison.

Alison: Thank you, thank you. Jeannie, have a great day.

Jean: bye.