Podcast Episode 51: Mike Robbins

Alison : What are you doing?

Jean : I’m reading the bio of Mike Robbins, and you have it (the recording) on.

Alison : Yep.

Jean : Because, Allison, I loved his book.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : It’s so great. And and not only this book, but get a load of the other titles of his other books… “Bring your whole self to work”,  “Be yourself, everyone is already taken”, “Focus on the good stuff” , Nothing changes until you do” ,  I mean, every one of his books…

Alison : And this one is,  “We’re all in this together”, which I think is perfect for right now.

Jean : Absolutely. And and if you, if you’re not in a corporate environment, if you… All the information here works for your home, family life too.

Alison : Exactly. And friends or even volunteer organizations or…  it’s really– I can’t wait to talk to him.

Jean : I know.

Alison : Because he seems so positive.

Jean : He he’s just seems like, like such a well balanced human being.. You know, strong in his masculine, strong in the feminine side and just brings it all together. And all of his tips and his experiences really led him to this place to be a great speaker and a champion for being the best human you can be.

Alison : You are on fire! You are on fire and, i can go home…

Jean : And scene!

Alison : And Scene! All right, here’s the interview.

Alison : There you are, Hi… Thank you so much for doing this.

Mike: Yeah, thanks for asking me to… I’m excited and appreciate you reaching out.

Alison : We love your book.

Jean : We love your book.

Alison : We’re all in this together… I think it’s a perfect title for right now.

Mike: Yeah, No kidding. Right?

Alison : Yeah. It’s been, uh, it’s been quite, quite a few years.

Mike: Yeah, It has.

Alison : I have to say this gave me hope. You seem so positive… And yet, like you’re giving us time to sort of self-reflect, which I really, I really enjoyed this. So thank you.

Mike: I appreciate it. You’re welcome.

Alison : And, go ahead…

Jean : Well, and I, I was thinking that your book is so beneficial not only to the corporate world and business world, but but as just living in your family. Um, so I thank you for that. I gleaned a lot of tips from it.

Alison : Yeah, I want to know. I want to know about your family dynamic, but first…

Mike: Yeah, Happy to talk about any of that..

Alison :  I love that. So you talk about four pillars of creating a team culture. Uh, Psychological Safety. Focus on Inclusion and Belonging. Embrace Sweaty Palms Conversations– which is a great tip because I think we all avoid that and, Care about and Challenge each other. So the first the first chapter, um, Psychological Safety, how do you even do that in a world filled with social media?

Mike: Well, it’s tricky for sure, for all of us. I mean, I think at some level, you know, I like to think of psychological safety as kind of group trust. So whether we’re talking about a group or a team at work or whether we’re talking about a family or community, I mean, in the world of of social media, you could say is definitely not a psychologically safe environment because what the components of psychological safety are really that, I know if I’m part of a group with psychological safety, I’m not going to be shamed or ridiculed or kicked out of the group simply because I have a different opinion or I make a mistake, or even if I fail. And so, in a large environment like the world, when we get on Instagram or Facebook or X or any of them, it doesn’t exist there. But within our teams, within our families, within our communities, we can create a sense of psychological safety, which doesn’t mean that we’re not going to disagree and challenge each other, but it does mean we’re going to respect and appreciate people’s differences. And the group dynamic is such that it feels safe enough for people to show up and engage, even if they disagree, or if, you know, people make mistakes.

Alison : That’s exactly right. And I think I’ve been in situations where I’ve not felt psychologically safe and felt very psychologically safe. And the difference…. Can you really describe some tips that you would know if you’re in a group where you just think, what does that really mean in my, in my experience, psychological safety?

Mike: I mean, I think it’s, you know, do we feel safe to speak up? Do we feel safe to show our full self or as much of our full self as possible? Um, you know, do we feel like we can ask questions or admit when we made a mistake or don’t understand something? You know, those are the types of things that often will make us know that we’re in an environment where we feel psychologically safe. And then on the flip side, what we can do to create psychological safety as much as possible… I’m often talking to leaders and managers inside of businesses, but in a family or in a situation, especially if you’re in a position of leadership or authority. But even if you’re not, the more authentic and the more vulnerable people can be, the more it sets the tone in the group or in the environment, that it’s okay for people to be different or to make mistakes. You know, if you can be the kind of person that admits, hey, I screwed this up, or hey, I don’t understand that, or hey, I could use some help. You’re signaling to everyone else those are all okay behaviors in this environment.

Alison : Right…It’s interesting because we talked to Cheryl Farrell who does storytelling with corporate executives, and it’s very interesting that she said it’s tough sometimes for leaders in a corporate setting to be vulnerable.

Mike: Yeah, absolutely.  I mean, look, I think all of us have been taught we’ve all gotten different messages, right? And the messages are different based on our age, based on our race, based on our gender, based on our orientation, our background. Right? I mean, in a, in a general sense, and I know this is an overgeneralization, but as I’m working in the corporate world for leaders, when I talk to a lot of male leaders, what they’ll tell me and I can relate to this as a man is, a lot of us were raised with the suck it up boys, don’t cry, be a man, that kind of mentality. So you’re not supposed to show any vulnerability, any weakness, because doing that, it often sort of makes it ten x worse than whatever it is you’re feeling vulnerable about. When I talk to a lot of female leaders or just women at work in general. They’ll say, look, it’s taken me so much to get to this position, to get in this situation, to be in this room, to have this role. The last thing I want to do is show any vulnerability or any emotionality. They’re going to go, oh, there she goes again, being emotional, which you both know better than I do, a man can say and do the same thing that a woman does and it gets perceived very differently. So I often say that it’s challenging for all of us, I think, to be vulnerable for different reasons. And the story may be, again, I’m I’m part of one or multiple groups that aren’t in the majority in this particular environment…therefore, I don’t feel safe enough. But on the flip side, when you talk to people who are in the majority, yes, they have more positional power, maybe more privilege, but they’ll also say, that goes against the norm and I’m afraid I’ll lose whatever credibility I have. So the reasons might be different. But I think in general, most of my research shows that it’s hard for all of us to be vulnerable.

Alison : That feels good to hear.

Jean : Yeah.  And and in your book you give a really great question, which I’ve already used in my family dynamics… If you really knew me….

Mike: Yeah.

Jean : And where did you get,  how did that come about? Do you use it a lot? Because I thought that was genius.

Mike: You know, Yeah… I appreciate you asking about that. So many years ago, some friends of ours who were mentors of mine and my wife’s, Rich and Yvonne Saint John, they started a non-profit organization called Challenge Day– that still exists, and they do their work all over the country and around the world. And the work is actually done in middle schools and high schools primarily. And so the exercise that I do with a lot of corporate teams, and I talk about in the book, is basically this idea of asking that question or repeating that phrase, “if you really knew me, you’d know this about me”, with the idea being to lower the waterline on the iceberg, the metaphor that I like to use when we’re talking about vulnerability and what it does, it prompts us to then, you know, get a little more real or lower that waterline on the iceberg. And I’ve done this exercise for the last 20 plus years in all different types of environments and settings. And what we’ll do is usually I’ll start if I’m facilitating it, and maybe it’s a small group, a senior leadership team, maybe I’m with a big group and I’ll put them into small groups. But I basically just set the context and say, look, we’re going to share some things vulnerably. You don’t have to say anything you don’t want to say. So I’m not forcing you into some uncomfortable situation, but I invite you to step into this place of vulnerability and just repeat that phrase a few times and say whatever you want to say to the people here and just see what happens.

Mike: And then the instructions for the people in the group is that when one person is talking, no one else will be talking, so that everyone’s going to get a chance to just say whatever they want to say about, if we really knew them in that moment. And, you know, over the years, I’ve just seen some pretty remarkable things happen when we have this conversation that people will share and disclose some things not for shock value, but just if you really knew what was going on and what we find, I mean, it’s it’s understandable, but just like the further down below the water line we go, the more similar we become. And it doesn’t matter if I’m working with a group in Silicon Valley near where I live, or if I’m in Texas or Florida or Arizona, or if I’m in Europe or Asia, or I was in Dubai a few weeks ago and we were having this conversation. It’s like it’s pretty human that the stuff down below the waterline is the stuff that really makes us human. The joy, the pain, the excitement, the sadness, the gratitude, the grief. It’s all there.

Alison : You’re towards the end of the book when you’re talking, and i’m sorry about your the loss of your sister, when you were talking about that, um, that if you really knew me into that group and you had just gotten off a plane and you were jet lagged, and then I think one of the people said, can we just hug each other? And I got so emotional reading that because I think the times that I’ve connected to most, even to strangers, is when you let your guard down a little bit and then someone steps in and you’re able to have this connection. I mean, that must have felt incredible for you?

Mike: It really was. I mean, I was yeah, I was in Switzerland with a group from Roche and these people, you know, very smart, very high level… And, you know, I’m always someone who kind of leads with my heart, and my work is a lot about that aspect. But I’m also trying to be mindful of where I am and who I’m with and, you know, respectful and appropriate. But in that situation, you know, they got really vulnerable with each other and they shared a lot. I shared a lot. We were all in this space. And, you know, one of the men just raised his hand and said, can we take a break and just give each other some hugs? Which, you know, of course, like that was music to my ears. Like, you don’t have to ask me twice for that, but to see them do that and again, time and time again, um, you know, I’ve seen that over the course of my life and with my work. And I do think, you know of the many things that can bring us together as human beings, it doesn’t always have to be pain, right? But when we do experience pain or loss or grief or that sadness of being human, there is something that’s kind of equalizing about it.

Mike: And it does remind us, you know, even when we find ourselves, as we do here in this country, in many places in the world, so divided, and the politics of things, or whether we’re talking about religion or other issues, that’s us and it’s them. And, you know, I get that I live in the real world, but I am, at my core, an optimist. And there’s a reason why I wrote a book called, “We’re All in This Together”, because at the core, like, I don’t really know who the them is when we’re talking about humanity, right? When we’re really talking about that place in us that, you know, the joyful place and the painful place, it’s like, I’m pretty sure even people I might vehemently disagree with on some really important things, they probably feel the same way when someone close to them passes, or when they’re going through something hard, or when they have a great joy in their life. And that seems pretty universal to me.

Alison : Yeah.  We have I have relatives in Asheville, and everyone is just coming together in such a way that the texts from my nieces really reflect the beauty of that..ya know,  and it’s very, it’s very moving to see that, you know?

Mike: Yeah.  For sure. Well, and that’s I mean, sometimes those in those situations when there is a crisis, when there is a, a hurricane, a flood, a fire, an earthquake, there is that element of, you know, we’re just coming together. I remember, you know, a few years ago when there was a flood down in Texas and, you know, they were showing all these scenes of people in boats just kind of going around and helping people out. And the conversation was, you know, I don’t think they were asking like, are you a Democrat or a Republican before you get into the boat? Do you know what I mean? Like, it’s just like we we help our neighbors, we help each other out in those situations. And a lot of the things that divide us, even as important as those things can be, when push comes to shove, they just don’t mean that much.

Alison : Right.

Jean : I think you hit the nail on the head right out the gate, Mike, with with the psychological safety. And and I was reflecting back on my life and how much, especially when I was younger, you know, really covered up so much and, um, I just, I thought this was so liberating to go, you know, if we can all just go be underneath the water line… Um, it it’s safe when we’re together, you know?

Mike: It is really liberating. And, look, it is scary. I mean, I remember, I mean, part of my inclination towards this work, you know, as a kid growing up, I just remember, like, a lot of us, you know, I felt weird, I felt different, I felt, you know, there were things going on. My parents split up and my dad had this thing called, they called it manic depression in those days, we now call it bipolar disorder. I didn’t know what the heck that was, but it seemed weird and we didn’t have as much money as some of the other kids. Or, you know, I went through puberty at an early age and, you know, awkward phase. I mean, all the things, life things. Right. But when, you know, as a kid, I just thought like something was wrong with me. And I had all these thoughts and all these feelings inside of me. And we were at school and nobody was talking about that stuff. And especially, you know, as a boy growing up, and I was an athlete and it was like, suck it up, be tough. And, you know, I wasn’t very tough. So I say all of that because there were moments in my life, even as a child and in adolescence and as a young, where someone would tell the truth about something and they would just say, I think about this, or I worry about that, and I’d go, oh, me too. Like, I didn’t know you could say that out loud, right? And and there was that sense of connection, but also liberation. And as I started to get a little older, and even though it would be scary and awkward and I would worry about being judged whenever I did that, I felt that exhilaration and that like, oh, I don’t have to hide and pretend anymore, right? And then mostly people would respond with that sense of, yeah, like I feel like that too. Thank you for saying that. And then it was like, oh, maybe we can have a more real conversation.

Alison : Yes.

Mike: And what’s interesting, I mean, you mentioned social media earlier. The interesting thing about social media… Look, there’s a lot of issues with it, clearly. And, you know, my wife Michelle and I have teenage daughters, 18 and 16. And so we’ve been going through it, you know, with them over the last number of years and all of the things that we do know, the dark side and the negative side of it. One of the things, though, that I do think that can be really beautiful about social media and what’s happened in the way that we express ourselves so much more these days, is so many more stories get shared. And so and all of us do have these platforms now, however big or small they are, where we can tell our story and share our story and let people know this happened to me, or this has been my experience, or this is how I feel. And there’s more sense of, oh wow, these things are okay to talk about. Whereas ten years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 50 years ago, we didn’t talk about those things and we definitely didn’t talk about them publicly.

Alison : Right, right..Exactly.

Jean : And you talk about that too mike, that we were all we’re all raised differently.. So something that would, you know, would be a real trigger for me, might not be for Alison.

Mike: Right.

Jean : Might be for you. Might not be– you know.

Mike: Yeah.

Jean : That’s that’s great to remember.

Mike: Yeah.  Well and look, our first team in life is our family and, you know, I mean, my my wife and I are the same race. We are about the same age. We grew up here in the San Francisco Bay area. I grew up in Oakland. We now live in Marin County, right near where my wife grew up. But it’s funny because we grew up so differently. Our families are so different. And like one story that I often tell, that’s kind of funny. Like, my wife and I have been together for about 25 years, but the first time I went over to her grandmother’s house, her grandmother was the matriarch of the family. She’s been gone for about 15 years now. But I meet grandma. I meet my wife’s dad and, you know, aunt and uncle and her brother and some of the family, you know. And so and we’ve been dating for a few months, and we have this nice dinner at grandma’s house, and we’re driving back to San Francisco, where we were living at the time. And I’m, you know, checking in with Michelle, like, how did I do?  well, how did you think you went? I was like, well, you know, it was good. What did you think? And I was like, your family seemed nice, but, um, I noticed they didn’t talk a lot. And she said, I know because you talked the whole time. And I was like, what? And she said, in my family, we don’t interrupt.

Alison : Yeah.

Mike: And I was like, really? In my family, if you don’t interrupt, you don’t get to say anything. So I was nervous, right? I was talking a lot, which I like to talk. Right. And they weren’t interrupting me. I thought they were really interested. But Michelle was mortified because I just kept talking and talking. And, you know, 25 years later, I still have to remind myself when I’m with my in-laws, like, oh yeah, give them space. Ask them questions because they’re just, you know…. And so again, I say that because sometimes we think of like cultural differences. And yeah, if we’re a different race and we grew up halfway around the world from each other and, but sometimes we can live in the same town. And it’s like our family culture is very different. Or you’re the oldest and you have four younger siblings, or I’m an only child or someone’s a, you know, the youngest of whatever it is, then it becomes, oh, that really influences how we’re wired and how we enter the world.

Alison : Yeah, I totally and I, I thought so many of your points were really interesting and one that really, like, hung me up a little was– phony, honest, authentic. Because my whole life I have thought honesty was authenticity. And I went, what the heck is this guy saying? Like, it took me, it took me a while… Can you can you go through that for our listeners?

Mike: Yeah, absolutely. So I think about I call this the authenticity continuum, right. On one side of the continuum is phony. We all kind of know what that is. We don’t we don’t like that. We don’t want to be that. We get upset when other people are that way. But we also, if we’re being really honest with ourselves, we know sometimes we can be phony. But then in the middle of the continuum is honest, which is good. And most of us have been taught, you know, honesty is the best policy, you know, be honest. But we’ve also all gotten in trouble for being too honest, or we put our foot in our mouth, or that friend of ours said, what do you think of this you know, guy I’m dating? And you’re like, well, I don’t like him. And then they get married and you’re like, oops.

Alison : Right. That is exactly right.

Mike: Or  whatever, i mean, fill in the blank. There’s been times where it’s like, oh no, don’t be that honest or not about that topic or not in this situation. So then we start to massage the truth a bit. We start to figure out how honest can I be and in this environment or at work or whatever, and it becomes really stressful, understandable but stressful, but where there’s real freedom and power is on the other side of honesty. That’s where authenticity lies. So yes, authenticity is about being honest. Absolutely. But in order to get to authenticity on the far end of the spectrum is the continuum, we got to remove something from our honesty and we got to add something to it. What we have to remove is our self-righteousness, and what we have to add is vulnerability. And so those two things, self-righteousness being like, I’m right, you’re wrong, which there’s a lot of that in our society these days. And vulnerability, which we’ve been talking about is really that sense of lowering the water line on the iceberg. So removing self-righteousness isn’t about not having strong opinions or not speaking up, but it’s about removing the arrogance that says just because I think it just because I believe it, just because it matters to me that I am right with a capital R and anyone who disagrees with me is wrong.

Alison : So That comes with honesty?

Mike: Yeah. So what happens oftentimes with our honesty, right, because when we think of honesty in this binary way, like I’m either honest or, you know, dishonest..well  I don’t want to be dishonest, but it’s it’s often this, like I’m just speaking my truth, i’m just telling it like it is. And you know, we get in all these arguments, cultural arguments, you know, East Coast versus West Coast or people in different countries speak different… And look, there is some truth to that, right? Yeah. I mean, again, I’m born and raised in California, in the Bay area, like I was just in Boston two days ago. And it’s like people communicate a little differently in Boston than they do in California culturally. Right? If we go to Mississippi, if we go, I mean, again, not everyone communicates the same way. But if we, you know, travel to Israel or we travel to Ireland or we travel to, you know, Japan, there are differences, clearly. But ultimately self-righteousness is about right versus wrong. I’m right. You’re wrong. And there’s a distinction between self-righteousness. When we’re self-righteous, we separate ourselves from each other. It’s hard to build trust. It’s hard to have any psychological safety. That’s why it’s so difficult to talk about politics, to talk about divisive issues, because it’s like you’re either on this side or that side, and there’s no in between, right? Conviction, though, on the other hand, is subtle but significantly different than self-righteousness. Conviction means I believe this to be true. I’m willing to speak up about it. I’m willing to engage &  debate. I’m willing to even have a passionately, you know, passionate conflict conversation with someone, however, I have enough humility, enough self-awareness to realize a couple of things… First of all, I might be wrong. Right?

Mike: Sometimes we’re convinced we’re right, only to realize, upon further reflection, we’re actually wrong. I mean, even about, like, really important things, I think about parenting, I think about marriage, I think about lots of health and other things that the things that I believe to be true today are not only different than maybe five years ago, ten years ago, in some cases 180 degrees, like I flipped exactly on like pretty important stuff because I learned some new things, or I had some new experience or some new information came out, or whatever the case may be, but it may also not be a right wrong thing… Maybe it’s just a values thing? Conviction is understanding maybe there’s another way to look at this thing that I can’t currently see, which is always true, right? Even as open minded as any of us want to be, and I try to be as open minded as I can… Like we’re all biased. We’re just biased based on our life experience.

Mike: Right ,I can only see the world the way that I see the world. And you’re going to see it differently than me, which is a beautiful thing, but also a challenging thing if we’re in relationship of any kind, because those things are going to bump up against each other. So that’s the nuance there of like being able to embrace, oh, there’s multiple ways to look at the same thing. Multiple things can be true at the same time. You know, most often in life there’s not like a correct answer and an incorrect answer. Sometimes there is if we’re talking about facts or data or it’s a math equation, but most of nuanced aspects of relationships and life and teams and families, it’s my perspective and your perspective, and we have to figure out how to coexist with those differing perspectives.

Alison : And then that’s so great, the way you put that. Then how does a leader, that’s goal is to go this way…  do you understand my like, how do you…. How do you broach that?

Mike: I like to make the distinction between the difference between alignment and agreement. Trying to get a group of people to agree on something important is hard, right? Because we’re going to have different opinions and different ideas. But if you create a psychologically safe environment where people can speak up, they can debate, discuss, disagree. A leader that is able to be honest but ultimately operate with authenticity can say to his or her team or group, listen, I’ve heard everybody, i hear where everyone’s coming from…. I’m going to have to make a call here,  because that’s one of the hardest parts of leadership… I mean, just even think about parenting… It’s like you argue with your spouse and then you have to decide. Okay…Right, oh, no… And then it’s like there’s, like, other people’s lives are at stake here, and we’re trying to do the right thing, but there’s no crystal ball, but we’re going to make a call and can everyone get aligned behind this thing? Even if you don’t 100% agree with it, because that’s what’s going to make us collectively as a group. The most successful is if we’re aligned heading in this direction. Now look, we can assess it along the way and make adjustments as we go. And maybe we get to the end of it or to some point. And we realize that was not the right decision. We’re going to shift and go another direction. But if you include people in the process, if you’re transparent about the fact that, like, hey, there’s a lot of different inputs here, and ultimately I got to make a tough decision, and I’m going to really need your support for this to happen. What often happens is we don’t agree with the decision. We’re annoyed we weren’t included. We weren’t acknowledged. There wasn’t some element. So now, okay, fine, I’ll get on board. But we do that weird thing where we’re, like, weirdly rooting against it. Because if it doesn’t go well, then we get to say… I told you that was the wrong decision.

Mike: It’s like…Well, okay..Now we all lost. But I got to be right. But, you know, but that’s how our, our egos sometimes works .. We just want to be right, so much so that we’ll sort of, you know, all the clichés are true- like, we cut off our nose to spite our face.

Jean : Right, right,

Mike: Right. So, you know, leadership is hard. It’s more of an art than a science, for sure.

Jean : I love that.  That is so true. It’s more of an art, right? It’s a balance. There’s a there’s it’s like a dance, right? Yeah. Um, so I think it’s pillar three that you talk about sweaty palm conversations, which is like, no….Especially given my personality, it’s it’s like, stay away from the conflict. Don’t want any pushback. And I’m going to share that, um, that’s, you know, Alex, my late husband, Alex, he was the one that did all that kind of stuff. And then he’d come and we’d have dinner and I’d be like, oh, you know, yeah, you did a good job. And now that he’s not here, I am the one that has to step up and have some conversations that I’m not always like, looking forward to.. And, um, I wish I read your book a year ago, Mike, but, um, can you talk about how you can reframe your mind to embrace sweaty palm conversations?

Mike: Well, a couple of things. I mean, first of all, um, you know, if you have someone in your life, like you did with Alex for so many years, who did that or was able to provide that, it’s it’s a beautiful thing. It’s a blessing. And then sometimes the dark side of it can be, oh, gosh, when I have to do it, it can be hard for all of us. I mean, this is one of the blessings and curses of having a partner who we love and rely on is like, oh, they handle certain things, we handle other things. And then, as you know and are living through, we lose someone, and it’s not only the pain and the grief of the loss, but the like, oh, now I have to step into all these spaces that are uncomfortable or vulnerable for me, right? So, um, I think it’s important to honor that within ourselves and all of us. And most people I talk to, even the people who take on those sweaty palm conversations, they don’t love them. They’re not like, excited about them. They’re hard. And so right. We all have some version of avoidance of those things, right? I mean, I much prefer writing about and teaching about sweaty palm conversations than actually having them, right?

Jean : Right.

Mike:  I can talk to you about your sweaty palm. Oh, yeah. Here’s what you should say. Or here’s what I would do if I were you. See you later. Have fun with that. Right? Because it’s not actually vulnerable for me to go have the conversation… One of the things, though, that I’ve learned in my personal experience and my research has also taught me about this, is that the natural human response to vulnerability is empathy. So if we can start a sweaty palm conversation with some level of vulnerability, which can be hard to do, you know, it’s usually a conflict or some kind of feedback or something that’s hard, right? But if we can, like I usually start by saying some version of I don’t really want to have this conversation or I’m afraid to talk to you about this or I’m worried this is going to go bad or you’re going to get upset or i bet I was up at 3:00 in the morning thinking about this or whatever, not to freak them out or lay it on them, but just to let them know this matters to me. You matter to me. And I’m feeling scared to talk to you about this, because what that does 99 times out of 100 or 999 times out of a thousand, the other person is going to at least be able to empathize with that experience emotionally, and then we’re having the conversation a little bit further down below the water line. When we come in super defensive or we’ve rehearsed the thing we’re going to say and we know we’re right and they’re wrong. And here’s why… Usually what happens is, then the self-righteousness comes from us, and the natural human response to self-righteousness is defensiveness.

Jean : Yes. Right.

Mike: So it’s it’s counterintuitive, but it’s like, can we have the conversation sooner rather than later? And can we go into it being vulnerable, knowing that, you know what, sometimes, not often, but sometimes we are going to get hurt by operating that way and that’s going to be super painful. But it’s the most effective way for us to engage. And if we have enough courage to go, like the worst thing they can do is say something or do something that’s really hurtful. I don’t want that to happen, but if that happens, I’ll probably survive because I’ve had that happen before, you know?

Alison : Right. Yeah, that’s totally great. And I have to say, my favorite chapter was the care about, do you know, because I just thought that that appreciation seat..  would be in some ways horrifying if I was in the seat, but fantastic if I wasn’t.

Mike: Yeah….So this is another one of my favorite exercises to do with teams. I call it the appreciation seat. And what I’ll do again, if the group is small enough, we do it all together. If it’s a bigger group, I’ll put people in small groups, but basically everyone has a turn to be on the appreciation seat I call it, which means for that two minutes, I’ll usually use the timer on my phone, you know, we all spend time appreciating someone, –everyone, and just organically. Everyone wants to say whatever they want to say to this individual. You know, we’ll start with Susie and then we go to John, and then we go around the whole group. And what happens is people get really uncomfortable about it at first, it’s awkward, it’s like people start making jokes and getting squirmy in their seat. But what almost always happens when I do this exercise with groups is that by the end of it, not only does it get really emotional and people are just deeply, beautifully expressing their appreciation for one another, and often there’s tears in the room, but like, people don’t want to stop doing it….Because it’s this weird thing that like, we all want to be appreciated, but most of us have a really hard time receiving appreciation. Um, and I often joke, but it’s not so much a joke because it’s true, it’s like I’ve literally I mean, I’ve been studying appreciation for the whole 24 years I’ve been doing this, i’ve never heard anyone say to me, you know what, Mike? I’m just too appreciated.

Alison : I love that.

Mike: I just wish my kids and my spouse and my friends and my colleagues and everyone would just stop appreciating me. It’s getting on my nerves.

Alison : No! Cool it.

Mike: Knock it off. Enough already. hahah I’m over appreciated. No, and the reason why?..is that we’re underappreciated, most of us, is not because people around us don’t care about us, and it’s often because, like, we’re not an invitation for appreciation. We don’t receive it. It’s if I came to your house on your birthday with a present, and I gave you the present for your birthday, I’m not expecting for you to run in the other room and get a present for me. That would be weird. It’s not my birthday, but I also really don’t want you to take my gift and throw it on the floor and say, why did you give me this gift? I don’t deserve it. Which is actually the way we respond to compliments and appreciations. Most of the time we either give one right back, which we might mean, but it’s such a knee jerk thing, we don’t even take it in. But more often, we deflect or discount or diminish it. And what we’ve just done is taken their emotional verbal gift they’ve given to us, and we’ve thrown it away without even taking it in.

Alison : Yeah…that’s fantastic. Do you do this with your family? This one?

Mike: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, look, it’s gotten a little more challenging as the girls became teenagers and it was, you know, they would say, dad, that’s so cringey. What are you doing? Right? But, you know…And my wife and I are like, we’re cringey. They also call us vibey, whatever that means? But the point is that, like, yeah, we did it with the girls when they were little and they were really open to it… As they’ve gotten older, it’s like you have to get a little more creative. And I say this too. It’s like whether it’s with our kids at different ages and stages kids, grandkids, nieces, nephews or our teams, it’s also like, you have to find a way in, you know, to how do I have the conversation? The goal is to have people feel valued, feel seen, feel acknowledged. Right? How we do that can vary a bit depending again, on people’s personalities, on people’s preferences. If we really care about… Again, think about the gift analogy. It’s like you could say, well, I have to give you this gift or this is the gift I want to give you. But it’s like, I don’t want that. Oh, well, what gift would you want? You know, so it’s like finding that out. It’s a dynamic process, right? Um, you know, in any relationship, a new relationship is different than a relationship we’ve had for a long time. A group of people who’s worked together for a very long time and knows each other really well, is different than a group that’s coming together newly or getting to know each other. Um, and a lot of my work these days in the corporate world, as you can imagine, is a lot of people interacting virtually and on zoom and coming here and coming there and halfway around the world. And so it doesn’t mean they can’t still connect and value each other and communicate effectively. It just means they have to be more intentional about it. And, you know, when you think about relationships, it’s like, where are we in our life? What stage of our life? What are we going through? And then, what is it that we really need and want in our relationships? Because it changes as we grow and evolve and as life changes.

Jean : Isn’t that true? What we needed in our 20s is not what we need in our 40s and our 50s. Yeah. And everything is relational. Relational. And that’s why I think your book is just such a great roadmap for even just marriages, like sitting down and asking some of the great questions you talk about. And, and I also love, like how all the pillars build on each other.

Mike: Yeah. thank you.

Jean : That safety is…

Alison : Yeah.. I like them all.

Jean : I do too.

Alison : Stop, Start, Continue.. I want to do that with my family. Like you know.

Mike: Oh. Yeah.

Alison : It’s great. Yeah.

Mike: Well that one, I mean, just for everybody listening like that one is about asking for feedback. What could I start doing that I’m not doing? What could I stop doing that I’m currently doing? And what can I continue doing? And when you think about, I mean, think about this in a relationship with a child, with a spouse, with a family member, a friend, a coworker, if again, it’s vulnerable because they’re going to say some stuff that you might not love hearing, but you go into that conversation with a little bit of a growth mindset, as we call it, wanting some feedback, and you give them an opportunity, you give them permission to share some things– proactively. And it’s like, oh, I could start doing that. I could stop doing this, I could continue doing that. And all of those things are really good. If we’re really committed to the relationship or to the group and wanting to show up again, we want to be ourselves. We want to be authentic. So we’re not going to do everything that they say necessarily just because they say it. But the fact that they can say it, okay, there’s enough trust and enough safety, and then I can consider it and think about, hmm, how could I do that in service of this person, in this relationship that really matters to me? You know, I mean, in some ways, you know, years ago, um, when Michelle, my wife and I first started dating, we’d been dating for a couple of months, and we were out to dinner one night, and she said to me she was sitting across from me at dinner, and she raises her hand, and I was like, yes… And she was like, I would like to be acknowledged. And I said, okay. For what? And she was like, well, I think it was like I got my hair done a little differently and I’m wearing… And I said, oh, that’s so nice. And then I felt bad, like, oh, did I do something wrong? And then she had me over at her apartment a couple weeks later, and she made dinner and we were eating dinner, and she raised her hand again and I said, well, I would like to be acknowledged. And I said, well, she goes, well, I, I was really nervous about this recipe and I didn’t know how it turned out. I think it turned out okay. And oh, it did. And then I was like, am I doing something wrong here? And she goes, no, here’s the deal. I’ve dated some guys in the past, and I would get really annoyed that they didn’t notice the things that were important to me. So I decided, with you, I’m going to train you. And I was like, what? And she goes, I’m just going to point it out. Like when there’s things that are important to me to be acknowledged, I’m going to let you know, is that okay? And I was like, actually, that would be really helpful because I tend to spend and waste a lot of time and energy, like trying to read your mind and figure out, right? Yeah. But I say that as like that can seem a little bit forceful or manipulative, but in a way, it’s like we’re all kind of training each other all the time.

Mike: This works for me. This doesn’t work for me. And if we can be kind about it but more direct about it, it actually makes it easier for us to be in relationship with each other. I will often train or not train as much coach leaders to do some version of that with their teams, like let the team know. Here’s what really works for me. Here’s what doesn’t work for me. And if you’re willing to take it to another level, be willing to ask them what fires you up, what inspires you? What motivates you? What drives you crazy? What irritates you? What pisses you off? Because I want to know. And the truth is, not everybody’s wired the same. So if you’re going to be an effective leader, I mean, think about parenting… It’s like the kids aren’t the same. They come from the same family, the same house, the same parents, and they show up really differently. And it’s like, what? And, you know, we never we never want to say to our kids, why can’t you be more like your brother or your sister? But sometimes we feel that way because it’s easier for me to parent your brother than you, and we don’t want to shame them, but it’s like, oh my gosh, they’re so different. I didn’t know that was part of the deal.

Alison : I think it’s amazing that the universe brought you the perfect teacher in Michelle.

Mike: Oh, gosh. Yeah. She’s amazing. I mean, like, all the time. I’m so grateful— I married well, and I’m very lucky in that regard.Yeah.

Jean : That’s wonderful,Mike.

Alison : So just as we wrap up, we have two quick questions. What do you think inside wink means?

Mike: Oh, I like that. I think it means…. Like, being kind to yourself and loving yourself.

Jean : Oh, Mike, I love that.

Alison : I love that. We have not heard that. That is beautiful.  It’s a reflection of you. And finally…

Jean : Do you like cake, pie or ice cream?

Mike: Oh, I mean, I like them all, but can I put a little ice cream on top of my pie? And then I’m in heaven.

Alison : That’s what I do. You want like, the turducken of desserts?

Mike: Yes.  And like apple pie a la mode, please. But, yeah, those are all, those are all really good options.

Alison : Thank you so much for your time.

Jean : You’re amazing man. Thank you for all the good that you are doing in the world to express yourself, communicate.

Alison : And help us do it.

Alison : I wish I had a corporation. We could hire him.

Mike: Well. Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate it… Thanks for having me on.

Alison : Okay. Thank you. Have a great day.

Jean : Take care.

Mike: Take care.

Alison : I really enjoyed him.

Jean : Yeah, you know, it’s so funny. I was listening to his audiobook, and so now that I saw him, actually… Because now I heard his voice, and then to hear his voice and see his face, it was great. And he..  honestly, Alison, he gave so many great, insightful, practical tools just to help any relationship.

Alison : Yep, And I love that um, if you really knew me? … These exercises that you could really do, even like at a dinner party if you were with close friends, right? Right. Like, you can really open up and that appreciation share…  yeah, I think I just think his pillars are just for leading a good life.

Jean : Exactly. And I for me, I noticed the shift between the of like a very old patriarchal way of leadership, and it seemed like he was, in a great way, introducing a more feminine… And I only say feminine because it’s more, um, welcoming rather than me, i know it all, let me tell you what to do…

Alison : And maybe a little bit more vulnerable.

Jean : Allowing vulnerability seems to feel, on the more on the feminine side, which which we all possess. So I think he, um, he was brilliant.

Alison : Yeah, he really was.. Very open. And his work is you know, I know it’s said for business– creating a team culture of high performance, trust and belonging. But how great if we all, in a large sense, felt like we were on a team?  like we were all really all in it together?

Jean : And it really starts with your family unit, I think, ou know, like start there. Yeah. Start on the small nucleus and then let…

Alison : Your friends start there. Right? Exactly. And that’s good. I, I think you and I are a good team.

Jean : We are a great team.

Alison : And that, and our friends are on our side and they’re a great team. We’re very we’re very lucky. And our families are.

Jean : We’re So blessed.

Alison : You know. Yeah. And these are great pillars.  So WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER, by Mike Robbins. He’s also the author of Bring Your Whole Self to Work, which I love. I love that title.

Jean :  and he has another one, um, Be you…. ugh, that’s  not right, but it’s something like be you..all the other ones are…

Alison : Oh, yeah.  What is that one? That’s so it’s it’s so perfect…. He’s really. Oh. Oh that’s right…. Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken.

Jean : Thank you, thank you. That’s it exactly. I mean, he was wonderful. And I wish him all the best.

Alison : Me too. So pick it up. Pick up the book, or just, you know…

Jean : You’ll enjoy it or listen to it on audio.

Alison : That’s right.

Jean : He has a great voice.

Alison : He does. That’s right. Have a great day.

Jean : Bye.