Podcast Episode 87: Heather Dolland Tamam

Alison : Hi, Jean.

Jean : Hi there.

Alison : How are you doing?

Jean : I am really good. I am very excited about this lady that we’re interviewing today.

Alison : Me too. Because, um, we read her book and, uh, it is called, Create Your Own Table.

Jean : Right.

Alison : And it’s a guide to discovering your purpose, which is just… Who doesn’t need that?

Jean : You know what, i think our purpose changes a lot throughout throughout our lives. And, um, and I, I really found her book to be very, um, self-affirming in that just, we’re not supposed to be like everyone else and, you know, trust what makes our uniqueness sing and, and follow that..

Alison : And that, that there are these things that society’s like, hey, okay, you did A, B, now C is supposed to happen, then D, then E. And sometimes it just doesn’t work that way.

Jean : No. And I, I think more than not all those constructs and belief structures are really melting away.

Alison : I agree.

Jean : And just liberating people to just be creative and authentic. And, uh, so she’s, she’s really ahead of her game and she has been.

Alison : Her name is Heather Dolland Tammam.

Jean : Very nice. It’s not easy to pronounce.

Alison : Tammam is an interesting pronunciation. It’s t a m a m and just a beautiful person and I cannot wait to. And that’s just what I got from the book. I cannot wait to talk to her.

Jean : It’s going to be great.  I know it.

Alison : Okay – Here we go.

Heather: Nice to see you. Nice to see you both. Also, how are you guys doing today?

Alison : We’re good. How are you doing? We were looking at your cards where it says like there was no such thing as failure. So now I don’t feel so bad.

Heather: I agree, everything is a stepping stone. It all is. We’re learning. I was actually looking at the cards also. I was just there. They’re always fun and I feel like it’s always like a little surprise, like, oh, what’s what am I going to pull out today? But anyway, so happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

Alison : We are so happy to meet you because I, you know, we loved your book. I have all these notes and dog eared pages and things to remember. Um, and you, it’s very exciting because it’s sort of a cross in my mind of, um, a book about jobs and achieving a place in, in a workforce that feels you’re passionate about and also spirituality.

Heather: 100%.

Alison : And you’ve intersected these two so beautifully, in my mind. I’m, I’m not looking right now for a job. But I have to tell you, there’s so much stuff in here that I can live by. How did you even come up with this idea to do this, this way?

Heather: So just pure confusion, honestly. Um, that was it. I i always felt that I thought differently, I saw things differently. I had a different perspective and I never accepted the answer. If you ask a question, well, that’s just how it is. Why does it have to be like that? And I was always driven by happiness. That was the guiding force from the very, very beginning. From the time I was a very little girl and I, I knew that… So growing up, I’m originally from Grenada. When you’re in a such a small place, it’s it’s somewhat of a conformist society. And if you don’t fall completely in alignment, it could become very challenging. Then like you’re like the problem child, right? I really wasn’t so bad, but it’s like it was always, gosh, like, you’re so stubborn and you have to have your own way. But I’m like, but no, but you’re teaching me to do all these things and to think.

Alison : Right.

Heather: When I’m thinking, I’m not seeing this in the way that you’re seeing it and there’s a different way. And what if we did this and what if we did that? But it was getting to this particular space. I had written my third book, which is called pivot, because life doesn’t always go as planned. And only in reading the feedback that I got from that book did I realize how many people stayed stuck. And it never occurred to me that this thing that I did, I just assumed that everybody else did it. It never occurred to me that people would just stay stuck. They would be struggling. They wouldn’t know what to do, and they would just suffer in that silence because that’s just how it is. And I’m like, but no, it doesn’t have to be that way. And so it was realizing that I had the tools, but really it was sitting and I remember this like it was yesterday, although it was just last year. So not that long ago, right? Like I’m living in dog years. I, I have my dog here with me. She’s like my little right hand. Every time I say that, it’s like, what are you going to live forever? So we’ll be all right.

Alison : Okay. Yeah.

Heather: But, um. Right. We just have to get that out there. Um, but as I’m looking at the news and I’m seeing 10,000 people being laid off, 20,000, 30,000, and I’m like, I understand what these guys are feeling because just a few months before in that October, I had had a friend who had gone through a layoff after 33 odd years. And how do you even reconsider life when that is your entire identity? And I knew I knew what to do. And so that was the impetus for me being like, you know what? No, I’m going to address this right now and this book needs to just get out right now. And so that was it. Then I started, I sat in the corner of my living room and I’m like, all right, I’m going to get everything that I have known, all of the knowledge that I’ve taken for granted. And I’m going to get this on paper so you could get out and serve. And so yes, that is that is how I got here in all of the confusion and this and the that. Yes, here we are.

Alison : I love that.

Jean : And, and so Heather, what your, the title of your book is really interesting. Can you talk about that and what it means for, for our listeners.

Heather: 100%, because you’re taught from the very beginning. So there’s a trajectory that we go on. You go to school, you get the degrees, you get the job. But what happens when you’re at that job for forever and you’re doing the thing you’re getting? But that raise isn’t coming. The promotion isn’t coming. All of those things, those milestones, the definitions of success isn’t arriving because you’re not being invited to the proverbial table. And so I’m like, instead of being upset and agitated and annoyed that you’re not being invited to somebody else’s table, go ahead and just create your own- period. It’s like we don’t have to keep struggling because at some point, and you start to realize that, especially when the years ahead are shorter than the years that are behind. When are you going to take control? And there are a lot of people that don’t. And so I am hoping that they can use the tools that I share to be able to do that because unfortunately, so many of us have so much knowledge. The problem is that we don’t value it. And more than that, you don’t see how that knowledge and that experience that you have is actually transferable. And so you’re thinking, because I did this thing, well, I can’t do that because I don’t have a degree and I don’t have a this and but you have the experience. And what happens when all of us, you come out of college and you’re trying to get the job and you don’t get the job. And what is the number one reason that you would not get… So you come fresh out of college and you’re trying to get the job and they’re like, no, we’re looking for somebody with more

Alison : Experience.

Heather: And the people with the experience

Alison : Exactly what you need more experience.

Heather: You can’t get the job because you don’t have the experience. And then you have all these people with so much knowledge and so much experience, and they’re just packing it up on the shelf. And I’m like, but why? Because you begin to take for granted the knowledge that you have and you can’t. You don’t see how, well, no, everybody must know that? I’m like, but no, they don’t, and you can serve and you can create your own table with what it is that you have. And so yeah, it’s that it’s, and I, and I, you know, the older you are, the more you genuinely have to give. Except unfortunately, you’re taught the opposite, right? It’s time to retire. It’s time to it’s like, well, what does retirement look like to you? Because I have a whole other plan.

Alison : Right.

Heather: Right.

Alison : Yeah, yeah. And I love the way you almost make failure seem like an asset.

Heather: If it wasn’t for my failure, I’d have no nothing. Nothing. No business, no books. Useless. Useless. Useless. Useless. Absolutely. I just had a meeting with someone this morning and I was telling them the same thing. I was like, you realize that I package all of my problems and I put them in a program, right? And then I wrote a book and I did…if I didn’t have these issues, I would be useless. She was like, why would you be coming to me? I can’t help you. My life is perfect. So sorry.

Heather: You’re on your own. My life. I have no idea what you’re leading to, but thank God, because it’s like if it wasn’t. And that’s one of the things that I shared just a couple hours ago. I’m like, they’re not your failures. It’s the redirection. It’s you, you know, okay, this is this thing is not going to work, but it’s getting you closer to the thing, whatever the thing is. And so, you know, what is it not not beta testing the least viable option, like in tech in particular, where they’re like, we’re going to put out this thing and if it’s not perfect, then you tweak it along the way, but you’re not not going to do it because it’s not perfect. And so all of those mess ups and all of the failures and all of the challenges, it’s the failure is the education you get with all the student loans at the end.

Alison : Yeah.

Alison : That’s right.

Jean : So true

Heather:  oh, because I’ll tell you, nothing has served me the way that my failures have. Period. Wow. It’s like when things are going great, like you’re not needing to expand, you’re not needing to grow. You’re not needing because it’s fantastic. So you could just keep coasting along. You there’s no need to challenge because it’s great. And then all…. But as soon as you fall on your face, the the cool thing about that is that, as I say, you know, if you see where you’re falling, you’re not going to make that mistake and fall there again.

Alison : Right.

Heather: Right? And if you fall on your back, you know, if you could look up, you could get up. Yeah. And so you could just get back up. So it’s not even about the failure. Like you’re focusing on your being able to get back up. So the, the failure just becomes the incident. It’s just a fall. I just felt, but you know what? It’s not even what the falling that you’re trusting in the getting back up. So It’s just part of the course, part of the journey. It’s not a big deal. And so like, if people could just embrace that, it’s like, suppose I fail I said, but you would have learned so much in that though there’s nothing wrong with it. But yeah, I thank you for pointing that out because I’m, I was preaching that literally for about four hours today.

Alison : I love, I love that because I think so many times we’re living in a world where society tells us how to dress, how to think, this is good, this is bad. And my, my child came out as non-binary and it challenged a lot of concepts for me about, you know, what is what are so many things. And I realized I don’t, I haven’t even thought about a lot of the stuff. I just was just stuck in there. And that’s why I think that that your book really has made me begin to challenge a lot of like, what society says it’s supposed to look like because your career didn’t look like what it’s supposed to look like.

Heather: I mean, talk about failure.  it’s shocking how I got here and even just how our identities, they’re wrapped up in our titles. Right, right, right. When I when I left Grenada to come to New York to study architecture. So figure I go through five years, I have this massive failure and I have it while having a thesis professor that is guiding me through this entire process. So this is not just my failure, this is hers also. On top of that, how am I going to tell my parents who have just paid for my education. Figure one easy dollar. So Eastern Caribbean dollar is like 3 USD, right? So it’s a three. How am I telling them that? And how does that even happen when you’ve done every single thing you told to do,  and I think that’s the other thing that a lot of us aren’t prepared for in life. I did what I was supposed to do. I did this thing and I did that thing. And then somehow the ending just the outcome was not what you thought it was going to be. But I remember going home to two things, and I don’t even recall if I wrote it in the book at this point. My parents house,so there’s, there’s a beach and then you could see the carnage where that fort is that I, that was the subject of my thesis, my epic failure. I couldn’t sit on that patio for like two years.

Heather: Like I just couldn’t bear the sight of it. I’m like, I cannot sit out there. I don’t want to see it. I want nothing to do with it. The whole thing. Right. And then I ended up becoming an environmental consultant, but it wasn’t again until pivot came out, and my father sent me the newspaper article showing me that every single thing that they failed me for, how dare I, you know, touch such a historic site. And I want you to add the restaurant and the museum and all of those things. And literally today, as we speak at this very moment, all of those things that I dreamt of…. So I was 20, that happened in 2000, and that book came out in 2023, and I was 23 years old at the time. so I waited 23 years later as he said that that message to me. And he’s like, Heather, you were just ahead of your time. And I saw that. And I never realized, honestly, the shame that I was carrying all those years, even though I had all these amazing career shifts and I was doing all these things in the in the recesses of my mind, there was that thought of, you’re doing all these things because you never did what you were called to do because you failed. I may not have said it, but I started to realize it after because it almost it helped me to step into me.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : Once that veil got lifted, I was like, there’s nothing wrong with me. I can trust what I’m thinking. I can trust what I feel. I can trust my judgment, whether or not I’m ahead of the room or ahead of the time. Well, I guess that’s somebody else’s challenge, but I can trust that the guidance that I’m given is correct, which is back to the spirituality part of it, because I do pray a lot and I do go to church every Sunday with my dog, and I do do all of these things. And I do believe in guidance. And so yes, when it doesn’t go the way that you begin to like, oh, gosh, like I’m not so sure, like, was this really okay? Was this, you know, all of those things. But I think once he told me that I was able to exhale and I was just like, no, chick, you’re all right. You’re good. And, and every and you can trust and just move on. And at that point, I, I understood everything with complete clarity. I’m like, all right, this is, this is just my journey so I can help somebody else along this. Because as, as I also shared, you know, the biggest sadness, weight, travesty, all of the above was that all I want to do was call my my thesis professor Michelle and share with her that it wasn’t us. We were just ahead of the room and unfortunately, she already passed away. And so how many people pass with that thing in them? Because the people, person, family, you name it told them – That doesn’t make sense. This is crazy. It’s not smart. Why do you want to do that? And so you fit your life in so that you’re not offending. You make yourself small so that you’re comfortable. The other person is comfortable, and then before you know it, it’s like you’re bitter and resentful and angry and mad and you don’t know what happened. Yeah.

Alison : I think, I think she knows.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : I think she knows.

Heather: I think so too.

Alison : Really? Honestly.

Jean : And, and there’s a you know, a saying that says don’t die with your music in you. Right.. You know, and, yeah, truly, Heather, I think your book for me really was more of a spiritual book. It just really about believing in yourself and trusting yourself. And, and we’re not meant to be cookie cutters.

Heather: Correct.

Jean : We’re, but, you know, it’s unraveling that guilt and that and the fear, you know, of, of what other people are going to think, you know, and survival, it’s, it’s such a, um, compacted, layered conditioning that we, we go through and, uh, so your book is really liberating. And so let me ask you, what was it like growing up? What were your parents? Were they because you mentioned at the beginning you were very happy. And I think a lot of Caribbean people from the islands..I  have a very dear friend from Belize… They have this joie de vie, you know, very happy. So what was it like for you, your childhood?

Heather: So I think this is the most hilarious part of this. So I was an only child for five years. And then my two brothers came along, um, then two years apart as the only child for such a long period. Technically, there was nothing that my father didn’t show me how to do. I was doing all the things. He was a business person. I went to work. I feel like I have to also bring my great aunt into this, because she’s a very significant part of who I evolved into. But I remember even so, like dad would, I would go to work with him when school was on vacation, doing whatever job I could do. At the time, he owned a clothing boutique and an electronics store, so doing whatever was appropriate. Um, but my great aunt is who I feel called to speak about the most, because I didn’t understand when I saw these children with trays of, uh, fruit or vegetables that they had a hard life and this is what they sold was really important in order for them to be able to live. I just thought they were doing it for sport. And so I would say to my aunt, because she had a ton of fruit trees, can I have like my own little fruit stand? So I remember this like it was yesterday. Like she would sit on the veranda reading her mills and boons and Harlequin romance novels with her, with her spectacles, like on the bridge. So she’s eye on me, you know, half on me, half on on her thing. And I am selling my wares. And she was just taught me to make change. This is how you do it. You know, create a package or this or that.

Heather: Make sure. And so that was something that was instilled in me from the time I was a very, very, very little girl, how to think about things. She, she helped me to create my signature, you know, and she goes, and when you go to the bank and you’re signing cheques and these are the things that you do and just having that sense of self and that’s, you know, that there’s nothing that I could that I couldn’t do. And I remembered as I started to get older and I would want to do this, and I wanted to do that, and my father would be like, why are you so independent? And I’m like, you made me like that. Like, what do you mean why? Like, you did it like, hello, it’s all you, right? And like the whole thing and you can’t just do whatever. And I was like, no, dad. Like I kind of learn from you and you taught me very well. So kudos to you for that. But it was it, you know, growing up, it was, it became like a little bit of a double edged sword because I began to see really quickly as I was evolving, I’m like, wow, I’m not really. I need to do something else. I’m not really fitting here right now. Like there’s so many other things. And a friend of mine, he had said to me, you know, when we met in college, he’s like, you know, I felt like you weren’t you didn’t think that you could fail. And I don’t know that it was a fear of failure more than it was driven by a desire to live.

Alison : Mhm.

Heather: And so my great aunt also had a saying where ignorance is bliss, knowledge is folly.

Alison : Huh.

Heather: And so I felt like I was just like, I’m just going to do these things.And you know, when you don’t even like with with writing my books, I remember when I wrote my first book I had, that was the only book I had a traditional publisher for, and I started writing in October, and she knew that this book was going to be debuting at Bookexpo America when that existed in May. I had no idea that books are supposed to take years. I had no idea. Nobody told me. And so I am like… So this was it was discovering the new craft spirits boom. So I, I interview 30 distillers from Brooklyn to the Finger Lakes. And my logic when I wrote this book is that because I, I, I, I walked away from being an environmental consultant, wanted to start my own business. No idea. Well, no, the business was already started. I had that business for like two, two and a half years at that point, no marketing budget. So I’m like, I’m going to write this book about all of these people. And since I covered the 30 distillers, well, they would then share the stories so they would have an interest in seeing this book succeed. Then I added the liquor stores and the bars and restaurants in there as well. So I was very methodical in my thinking, but I had no idea that this was mad. There was nobody around me to tell me. Heather, that is an insane project because if you do the math, I was also going to like three distilleries a day.

Alison : Yeah.

Heather: Drinking gin before 9 a.m.. Not advisable. Not advisable. But I did what I had to do to get it done. And I got it done right. Because I was not encumbered by it’s supposed to take all this time like I didn’t know. So I just did it. And I think there’s so many things where we trip ourselves up and you so get in your head because that’s not how it’s done.

Alison : Right.

Heather: We can make that narrative into what we want it to be. And I’m so about controlling the narrative.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : Mhm.

Alison : And so, yeah. When you talk about contributing factors and determining factors. That was really interesting because I realized, oh, there’s some stuff that I really have no control over, but there is stuff I do. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Heather: absolutely. So it’s like the things that contribute to our existence, the things that we have absolutely know that I was born a woman that I was supposed to be on my… That was another thing…. I had no idea when I came here what a minority even was, or that this was supposed to be a challenge. And I’m like, where is the problem exactly? I am not 100% sure, but I guess it’s sound so silly to say, but it is 100% the truth. And it’s like, all right, these are the these are the things that would may contribute to whatever. But what actually happens is my reception of it. How am I going to deal with that hand? That I’ve been dealt. If I see it as an issue or not. And so I gosh, oh, my college years were very challenging from that standpoint. 100%. Because it was just like, I mean, I hate to, to bring race into it, but it always felt that way. It’s like, well, you speak this when you do things like, well, you’re not really like black enough. What the heck does that even mean? Yeah. What does that like what? And it’s like all of a sudden there are these parameters, right? That you’re told that you need to fit into them.

Heather: The challenge is for those who don’t believe that this is something that I actually have to abide by, and you see something that’s different. And because at this point I model my books, I remembered and I don’t know if you guys recall who Bea Smith was. So she had this amazingly beautiful, and if you’ve spent any time in Long Island in the Hamptons. So when I first, um, when I first moved to New York, so that was 95. So I would say late 90s, early 2000, I started heading out east to SAG Harbor and I met Bea Smith and I was just like, what an elegant, beautiful human being. It was the first time I remembered going to the restroom and seeing she had this wall of magazine covers, and she was on the cover of every single one. And it was the first time I saw, which is significant a dark skinned black woman on the front of a magazine that owned a restaurant that was doing all of these beautiful things, all of these amazing. It had… that was it. And I was just like,  it never occurred to me that this was something that was available to me.  And I think for many of us, we can’t be what we can’t see.

Alison : Yes.

Heather: And if we could create that example of excellence of that thing, because you don’t have to be in that situation, you can choose, then it makes all the difference in the world. I remember growing up when I would look at all of our literature books. They were all written by either Jamaican or Trinidadian men who were no longer with us. Every single one. And I was like, where are the women? I know we’re doing a lot. And so I wanted to then be that example as I’m stepping into this space, to be that author, to do all these different things and take on the titles that, frankly, I ran from the years.

Alison : Mm.

Heather: Don’t call me a coach. I’m not this. I’m not an author. I’m not a writer. Meanwhile, I’m doing all the things right. I’m doing all the things because I, I realize also like we go through stages in life. And so you just it’s that readiness also as you evolve on your journey. And so I’m like, what does that mean? And you’re thinking of the person that you might know that you might be, you know, that you might not be the most fond of that has this particular I don’t want to be like that person. But then you realize, no, we have the ability to make any of this what it is that we want, what we want it to be. And so it’s like, all right, how can we now just show up as our most authentic self?

Alison : Mhm.

Heather: And so yes.

Jean : It’s so true. And I do think that’s what we’re all really being called to show up more authentic. Little by little, take off those, the protection and and all the identities that we felt we needed to be, uh, for whatever reason, and be truly, uh, authentic in our, in our own being.

Jean : Uh, okay. So I have a question.

Heather: Ask me the question.

Jean : Um, when I’m, I’ve been in enough classes, spiritual classes and everything and I’ve heard so many times the question, i don’t know what my purpose is? Can you if someone is listening and they don’t know what their purpose is, whether they’re a young person or maybe they’re now an empty nester and a woman in her middle age, How can someone tap into what their purpose is?

Heather: So I was asked this question just this morning. Um, as someone was doing an interview with me and she said, you know, what advice would you give a young person who wants to follow in my path? And I said, the first thing is that that I would not suggest that they follow in my path.

Heather: The first thing is being finding who you are genuinely and authentically and understanding what that call is on your soul. Because for everyone, that’s different. But more than that, if as you are on that journey, you’re realizing because you don’t, you would never see until you do, until you start to step in that direction. So my first bit of advice is it’s not about I’m going to back up a little bit, also– when we think about stepping into purpose, it’s also connected with a job, future, career, something that I’m going to do. And then there’s a monetary aspect of it. And then people begin to panic because you’re like, oh my goodness, I don’t know if this is going to make enough money. This is what I want to do, but I don’t know. And so my first bit of advice is instead of focusing on your financial goal, understand what your sole goal is. If you could understand what that goal is on your soul, then everything else will begin to take care of itself. I genuinely believe that. But give yourself grace to shift, because a lot of the times we start doing something the way that we thought it was is going to happen in our head. It’s not always the way that it happens in reality, and you need to shift. You need to and just give yourself grace.

Heather: With that, you get to choose again. But the question of purpose, I could not– if even, two years ago you asked me….. So Pivot was in 23, I think I was closer to that, but because I realized I had a skill set that I could help. But the question of purpose, it took me a long time even to be sure if I wanted to name the book about discovering your purpose, because I think when people hear that word, it becomes very heavy, very heavy. They’re feeling like they’re about to be the next Mahatma. And I’m like, no, it doesn’t. It doesn’t need to be that. It’s just that what is that thing that you’re called for? But then I realized that instead of purpose, it’s, it’s all of the talents. It’s every single thing that I’ve been able to do, all the things that I enjoy doing, all the things I do naturally, it doesn’t feel like work. It doesn’t feel like a chore and I am able to now bring that into your life. So to me, that is what that purpose is. So it’s not necessarily… It’s a different thing for everyone else, but the journey to it,  it’s genuinely something that you you feel and it doesn’t feel tiresome. I think that’s probably the first thing. It’s not a…. When I, I had five calls today.

Alison : Wow.

Heather: And I could keep going. None of this feels like arduous or task or anything because it’s what I naturally love to do. I love to connect. I love to create meaningful change. And if I see that you’re struggling, I’ll be the first person there to help and guide. And so it just became, how am I now able to take this into something that is a business? But everybody, it doesn’t have to be that. And I think that’s probably another thing. With regard to creating, you know, determining your purpose. For some people, it may need to be a business, for others, it may just need to feed their soul. And that’s enough.

Jean : Mhm.

Heather: And you could do that job if you’re feeling like that thing would not be able to take care of you monetarily and just do that other thing on the side. And there’s nothing wrong with that either.

Alison : Right, right.

Heather: I always, you know, one, one of the calls I had today, I was like, my dear, you need to get yourself a job, do that other thing, but you need to get that job because you don’t want to get, you cannot create if you feel financially strangled and in a chokehold. But you would begin to love that job even though you think right now it really sucks because it’s allowing you to be able to step into that thing that you want to do. So it doesn’t take away from it. And I think sometimes we think that, that to do that thing, that is my purpose, it must pay all the bills and do— it doesn’t have to. It’s okay if it doesn’t, as long as your soul’s happy and it’ll work out and it’ll figure itself out. But just don’t don’t create that pressure where it’s like one or the other. And I think that’s the other thing that prevent a lot of people from stepping into that thing because it creates this hard line. And if they can’t pay all the bills, well, it can’t buy buy me a cup of coffee either. And so…

Alison : Right.

Jean : Yeah. And you and you give some beautiful, uh, questions.

Alison : That workbook. The workbook.

Heather: Yeah.

Jean : You know, what would you do if you know you couldn’t fail or you had…., you know, so I thought your questions were, were beautiful.

Alison : Yeah.

Heather: Thank you.

Alison : You know, my son graduated, he, he was stuck in the pandemic, so his whole trajectory changed. You know, he graduated college a few years ago with a with a computer science degree. And years ago, you were like, you’re, you got it. Like what you said, it’s going to look like this. And you know, right now you can’t get a job in that. And it’s been a struggle because I think just what you said, I think people think it must be some huge like like I was thinking my passion…. I just like talking to people. I like, I’m curious about people. I like people, you know, and it can be, I think that simple. You don’t have to have a wall full of magazine covers to feel fulfilled.

Heather: Exactly, exactly. And for the number of times can I say that I got in trouble, because at the end of every report card is Heather talks too much, Heather talks too much. And I remember when I first saw when I started as an environmental consultant and then I transitioned, I went from a scientist into business development. I went back to Grenada and I saw the principal and I said, guess what, Mrs. Webster, remember you like to write. Heather talks too much. I said, they pay me to speak now. So look at that.

Jean : There it is.

Heather: Right? But it’s like again…. But it’s the thing that we do, and I never thought that this was particularly special until I got that feedback. Oh, but I needed help and I needed hear somebody say that because I didn’t hear. And I was like, oh, so we can use those basic, seemingly things that have no value because all we’re doing is again, right, just taking what it is that we do for granted, taking what it is that we love for granted. Who cares? And then you realize you actually saw that make a difference in people’s lives and they care, right? And so, you know, just just moving along, but as you shared what you just shared with your son, you know, I think one, one a lot– one thing that I, I find myself recommending when people do feel like they’re very stuck, like that is taking that knowledge into a place where that skill set is rare, where everybody is not doing that thing that you now do, and it’s just thinking a bit just outside the box.

Alison : That’s interesting.

Heather: Thinking outside the box.

Alison : Yeah.

Heather: You know, in, in that space where you’re not competing with everybody else’s doing because there’s so much interconnection with everything now.

Alison : Yep.

Heather: It’s having that flexibility. I, I genuinely believe is, is what, you know, with AI and technology and everything having that  flexibility, but more so having that humanity is what differentiates us.

Alison : Yeah.

Alison : Very much. Well, humanity is going to be rare.  I wanted to ask you, you know, how some people that seem to have everything. They got it all. They got everything. But but I don’t know that like, like they’re like, sometimes you hear that, but I’m not fulfilled. So why is it that fulfillment and achievement… How can you get them to converge as opposed to diverge?

Heather: Well, I think that comes back to purpose.

Alison : Yeah.

Heather: That 100% comes back to purpose and, and what you’re driven by. But in fairness, look, you know, we all have bills to pay. You need to do what it is that you need to do, which is also why I, I share that if you’re at, if you cannot see right now and it is not it’s not permanent, right. Right now, you may not be able to see that end where any of this could make sense, but it’s taking that step, taking that step. And yes, I think the reason that that fulfillment often doesn’t come because you’re doing what it is that you have to do. But my hope, my dream is that you have enough awareness. Should you have the desire to do something else that’s more fulfilling, to actually take that step and do that? There’s so many people who wouldn’t because again, their identity is wrapped up in it. I remembered even when I was an environmental consultant going into the alcohol business, I said I was an environmental consultant for 15 years. Now I’m when I’m slinging booze, seriously, I didn’t need to go to school for seven years for that. I felt like legitimate shame. I’m like, oh, yeah, I saw alcohol now. And worse than that, worse than that is that I would go back to Grenada, and mind you, I had not done architecture for like, what, 15 odd years, people would still be like, oh, you’re an architect, right? And I’m like, oh my God.

Heather: What do you do now?

Heather: I sell alcohol…. Talk about shame. And but I was, I knew that if I had to spend the next 20 years of my life doing that, and let’s just be clear, i worked with an amazing people and it was an amazing job. It just wasn’t for me, right? It just wasn’t my calling. So it was great. The money was great. All that stuff was great. It just wasn’t for me. The challenge was I didn’t know what that thing was either. And so I stepped into the alcohol space because it did not matter how early I had to get up to go on a construction site or do whatever work that I had to do. I always had the energy to do a tasting, and so I only developed the words for it later on that I like to teach. I didn’t know that back then. All I knew is that when I went to a store, if they took a certain number of bottles of wine, certain bottles of spirits, and I went to do a tasting, I sold out of my inventory- all the time- because I like to teach people about the wine, about the spirits, about the whatever it is, I like to connect with them. And so that was a skill set that I was able and it was just about good work ethic. Honestly, it’s all that it was because when they’re like, well, how do you go from environmental to that to, to, to spirits? Well, it wasn’t about the base thing.

Heather: It was about the me thing. I was bringing the same, the same value system that I had there, i was bringing, I was just moving into something else. Yeah. And then when I became a content creator, it was the same thing. It’s the same work ethic, the same, all of those things. I’m moving it into something else. But I mean, talk about being ashamed. I then –  so  to quell myself of that, I became a certified specialist of spirits. So just like you have a psalm for wine, I have those credentials in the alcohol space. So I was like, well, I am I, what is the truth? And I struggled for ages with that. I get it, I completely get that — but yes, here we are, and I’ve evolved and evolved and, and I genuinely just own where I am right now, where I’m where it allows me to honor all of me, quite literally all of me, because I have all different types of clients. And yes, I may not have lived all of your lives, but I have, I have had enough variety where it’s like, okay, I get what this common denominator might be, I get it and I, and I see you and I understand the struggle, like, okay you know, and there’s like the relatability.

Alison : Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, your book is very vulnerable.

Heather: Thank you.

Alison :  and, you know, we read a lot of books and some people we interview and some people we don’t. And some of the books like…. And, uh, some of the books people almost seem too perfect.

Heather: Sure.

Alison : And, and that’s hard for me to relate to. You know, it’s, it’s challenging because then I feel more like a loser or whatever, you know?

Heather: I get that. Yes.

Alison : So how did, how did you feel about opening up so much in this book? Because your last chapter, I almost started crying at the last thing because you were like, it was real… And I was like, oh, don’t say that. I love you, by the way…. You know, like, oh, I got to give you a hug.

Heather: So, you know, the funny thing is-  I was like, oh my God, the United States versus the Caribbean. She, like your book is so vulnerable. And the West Indian in me was like, you have no shame because that’s what the Caribbean is, but you have no shame. I was like, don’t try and shame me for not having shame. Like, what are you doing? I’m like, I’m being honest. Like, why? But I was like, oh my God, I was so nice. What you just said. Yeah, I know, but the Caribbean version. But can I just because I realized that I just show up best as myself, period. Yeah, I just it wasn’t, I wasn’t it wasn’t even attempting.  i wasn’t even I’m like, I’m just going to tell you the truth because I can’t help you otherwise, period.

Jean : That’s very true. Yeah.

Heather: Right. Period. If you’re not able and realize that I also use my books so that my right fit client recognizes me, the right fit person. So my second book was called – like I had to check, “Before the Glass- Things to consider when entering the boose business”. And I wrote this book because I was so, so, so super angry. A client that I thought was going to be a client or he was supposed to be a client in January, did everything I, everything I told him not to do. And I onboarded new brands in January and we met in October. I’m sitting I and it’s only me and two other salespeople. So we cannot carry that much product. In addition to that, when you’re selling alcohol and you’re doing tastings, there’s a thing called palate fatigue that happens. So if I am going to a liquor store and I want them to take my products after like 3 or 4 products, they stop being able to taste – so it defeats the purpose. I can’t have more than six brands total, total, total in my portfolio. And I end up having to walk away from this guy because if I took him on, he was going to absolutely ruin my reputation. And I write this book because the financial catastrophe that that created for me,  I never got out from under it that year. It was like mistake, mistake after mistake. And I realized how I could use a book to find my right fit client, because the only thing that was worse than no client was having a bad one.

Heather: And so before we sign any contracts, I am going to give this to you. Read it. We’re good, we’re good. Sign the contract. We’re not going to have a wonderful life. It was nice to meet you. And I’m going to move on to the other person. And so, when I wrote, “Create Your Own Table”, I wrote it with that thought process in mind, that I know that I’m here to serve. I’m seeing all these people losing their jobs on all these different things going on. I need them to understand that I can help, but first they need to know who I am. They cannot find that out only after the fact. And that’s how you get bad reviews. And I’m not interested in that. And so and so they’re like, this is a book. If you see it and you’re like, this chick is crazy. All good. But if they’re like, okay, I get what she’s saying, then we’re solid and we can move. So it doesn’t serve me to have any level of pretense because it will come out. It will become very evident. And so I’m like, nah, the only way I could do this is just being my true and authentic self, which apparently as my mother be like, Jesus, Heather, you have no shame. I was like, Ma, don’t judge me, okay? I am just. Yes, I love that. Thank you. My vulnerability. We’ll own that.

Alison : That’s right.

Jean : Very beautiful. That’s right.

Heather: Yes, we own that.

Jean : It helps so many other people. When we share our vulnerability. It really does. It’s such a beautiful gift.

Alison : You know, in our family, we say…. Everybody’s got a bag of rocks to carry… You know. And you know, and some people will help you. Jean helps me, you know, take rocks out of my bag, and I hope I and my husband . But you got a bag of rocks, and everyone’s got it no matter what it looks like.

Heather: 100%. 100%.

Jean : Just don’t hrow them at each other.

Alison : That’s right, that’s right.

Heather: Just yes… Right… Peace.

Alison : You know, we’ve taken up so much time of your day. Um, we we just have.

Heather: I’m having a very good time.

Alison : Are you?

Heather: Please. In case you didn’t realize. Truly.

Alison : I find you so moving.

Jean : Me too… Because I found you first, Heather– and I said to Allison, I bought this lady’s book, i was in the back of a cab in NYC

Heather: That’s how you found, I wondered. I was like, where is the connection? Thank you for sharing that with me. Thank you.

Jean : I was raised on Long Island, Heather. And so I was back in New York visiting my mother and my son and my sister. And so I had a long ride in the cab and your, a book promo… You were there talking about your book, And I thought, she is awesome.

Heather: Yeah.

Jean : And I said to Allison, you know what, I, I would love to, I said, I don’t know if we’re going to get her because her book just came out. She’s probably… But you didn’t do a ton of podcast interviews and everything. So I feel so lucky. Special and lucky to have you here with us this afternoon.

Heather: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for seeing that I, I realized.   So I have picked all of those interviews up. As a matter of fact, I have seven this week, which is like stunning.

Alison : That’s fantastic.

Heather: Yeah, quite. So when I wrote this book very quickly, I realized I needed to create a program to be able to give people who got clarity from the book, the next place to go. The other thing that I realized that I needed to do, if you recall the section on beliefs and the way that I use those overnight meditations to be able to shift, I’m like, I need to create that.

Alison : Yeah.

Heather: And I was invited to do a workshop this summer, 10.5 hours of instruction. And they asked me, they’re like, do you have any meditations? And I’m thinking– this had been from the time I wrote that because, I know I the advice that I gave was kind of like, do it yourself. I’m like, well, wouldn’t it be lovely if I actually did it? So I had been making sure that anyone who got clarity for this had places to go. And that’s why I had not been doing that much. And my head was just down for months, literally until December. I’m like, all right, I’m back now… I can start to get out there and do all these things because I really wanted to make sure that I was serving. I didn’t want anyone to come to me and then feel stuck. And I got all these things and they’re off to the races. Oh my bad. No race. Go home now. Like I’m not going to do that. Especially when you have momentum and that kind of thing. And so I really spent the last – from May through December just creating and I create all my own content, and I do all of these things on my own.

Alison : Where can our…. Because I’ve given away two other copies of your book to my to my sister in law and friends. So where can you find that stuff? Like, like, like, let’s say you want to just get to know more about you… How can someone, how can our listeners find that?

Heather: So my website for sure, which is dalton.com. So I essentially married both of my last names, so it’s D o l t a m.com. And yes, and the books are available quite literally everywhere. I mean, Amazon, Barnes and Noble a whole lot. But yes, all of my programs, everything is available on dalton.com and I have complimentary clarity calls. So if you’re not certain and you want, because again, the goal is to serve, which is why they are complimentary. And depending on what that need is, we would know. And then you could evolve and go into the next step where you would enter into quite literally the create your own table ecosystem where I can, the goal is to meet you wherever you are. You know, I often say in, in. Just like in life, I mean in, in in, in nature, there are seasons in life. And so the intention is to create and curate and really just support you depending on the season that you’re in, in your life.  https://www.doltam.com

Alison : I find you so. Something about you touches my soul and I find you so moving.

Heather: Thank you. Thank you for saying that. And both of you, I genuinely appreciate everything that you’re doing. And I actually really love looking at your reels. I was just like, you’re just fun, wonderful, delightful, and I prepare, I always make sure I prepare and I was just like, you know what? As I was coming in today, I was like, this is going to be fun. I actually am looking forward. I was like, this is going to be fun. So yes, I’m here for it. So thank you for creating this kind of space.

Alison : We have two quick wrap up questions that you know, the first one is what does what do you think or Oh, what does inside wink mean to you?

Heather: To me, that’s intuition. I that is what your guided that thing when you get that insight. It’s like whatever source, whatever you believe in is saying to you, this is that thing that is your intuition. And when you get that inside wink, it’s like, yeah, that’s the way that that’s the direction to me. The inside wink is definitely like that calling that, that grown, that message that you’re getting that is endorsing whatever that thought is action, whatever it is you want to do. To me, that is absolutely it is intuition.

Alison : Perfect.

Jean : Beautiful. And okay, so our last question before we say goodbye is.

Heather: The hardest.

Jean : The hardest truly. Do you prefer cake, pie or ice cream?

Heather: Ah, yeah, yeah.

Heather: And I’m still struggling. I’m still struggling because the reason that it’s not a fair question is because to me, they are dependent on each other.

Jean : Okay. That’s like Allison.

Heather: If you’re going to. Oh, I feel and I was like, I’m going to say cake. I know, I want to say ice cream. I’m going to say cake. I know I.

Alison : That’s what we’re putting on your table.

Heather: We, I know, right? I’m going to put cake then just because you said table I was like, Christ, the ice cream is going to melt. I’m going to stick with the cake. Ah, but mind you, I’m like a pie and ice cream person all day, all night and twice on Sunday. I mean all the time. I love that. I’m like, how can you? So like they just cancel each other out? Cake. It’ll be cake.

Alison : Okay. Cake.

Heather: You forced my hand cake. What’s that?

Jean : Is there a specific cake?

Heather: Oh my gosh.  Like now you asked me… Like really? It took me so long to get to the cake. You know what? Just that very, very plain vanilla. That reminds me of my childhood and this is going to sound extra hilarious. I remembered for my 40th birthday saying to my mom, I ended up being back in Grenada. I’m like, mom, I want the vanilla cake like we used to have as kids with the hard icing on it.

Jean : Yeah.

Heather: The just it was, I think it was just literally water and it wasn’t fondant like nothing that fancy. It was literally just water and icing sugar, right? With some coloring, but it’s like, it, it, I would taste that. And five year old Heather would show up.

Heather: Yes.

Alison : Yeah.

Heather: Right. Yeah. None of the fancy like the pistachio, raspberry and the hummingbird. And no, I think I would just because that it takes me right there and that’s like a wonderful place.

Alison : I love that. Thank you so much. And thank you so much for everything you’re doing.

Heather: Thank you for having me.

Jean : What a generous and beautiful woman. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Heather: And thank you to both of you for all that you do as well. Thank you.

Alison : Stay in touch. Okay.

Heather: I hope to, indeed. Yes.

Alison : I’d love to keep connecting with you.

Heather: I’d appreciate it. Have a wonderful day, too. Thank you for having me. All right. Take care. Bye bye. Bye.

Alison : Well.

Jean : Wow. Did she have so much goodness to say. And what a what a spirit.

Alison : My gosh, she just, like, jumped out of the computer. I felt like I could like –she’s electric to me.

Jean : She is so full of joy. Yeah. And, uh, wisdom.

Alison : And and pure — like pure.

Jean : Yes pure… not lording it over or pontificating. She’s just really wanting to serve.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : Uh, and I read this quote the other day, Allison, it said when you serve from your heart, it transforms others, so it transforms yourself and others. And I thought because we were reading this book and I thought, that is so Heather.

Alison : As opposed to like what, uh, serving from like, oh, I have to do this.

Jean : Right, right, right. A sense of obligation being more of your inspiration.

Alison : Right. And she is just so the book was really interesting and I just liked the stuff she said today that we’re all in our own unique path because sometimes I forget that, like sometimes I fall into that thing of, oh, I should be doing this or I should be doing that, but really, I should just continue to do what I, I find inspiring and that I enjoy.

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : You know, I was so taken with her.

Jean : She’s so fun and I’m so glad she said yes to us and and, uh, Yay! So thank you so much, Heather, and I hope you all enjoy this beautiful interview.

Alison : And look up her book, “Create your own table” or even go to her website –  https://www.doltam.com  and it’ll be on our page and in the bio. So really, and she.

Jean : She Offers so many wonderful tips and tools and I know she’s just amazing. I’m so glad, so glad we took this opportunity.

Alison : Me too.. Jean’s the one that found her. Good job Jean. Yeah. Good job. Thanks, everybody. Have a great day!

Jean : Bye.