Podcast Episode 77: Stephen Schettini

Alison: Hello!

Jean: Hello all out there in podcast land!

Alison:  hello. Here we are. Um, I want to tell you something. I found a little lame duck in my street, and, um, all my my kids were so great. My husband was so great. People that stopped were so great. The neighbor whose property we were on, who I had never met, was great. Other people. And it just made me go, I love people like everyone just got involved.

Jean: No one was giving you recipes for duck a l’Orange?

Alison: No.

Jean: Okay.Good.

Alison: No. No one was like, you know, I’ll take it. Dinner? No, it was great. And we found a rescue for it, which is the California Wildlife Rescue up in Calabasas. And it was just- I just felt like it. I don’t know, little moments like that make me so happy and renew so much for me.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: Do you know?

Alison: I love that you share that. Because it is those those little moments. I mean, I know a lot of us don’t ordinarily lose, you know, find a duck on the street.

Alison: Or lose a duck.

Jean: Or lose a duck. But it’s it’s when you notice the goodness within others.

Alison: I know everyone was eager and came over, so I just wanted to just put that out there that I was so impressed by people and and like, just like this show, like this man today that we’re going to be interviewing…. Stephen Schettini, correct?

Jean: YES

Alison: And, uh, his, um, website is about being an inner monk.

Jean: Yeah. He was in a monastery for eight years, and we’re going to hear about his teachings, the tools he he uses to help people live a more happy and fulfilled life.

Alison: So that’s fantastic.

Jean: It is.

Jean: Who it is who can’t use that i mean, I think I heard him say actually that his, um, his mission is to just help others and.

Alison: Be in the world.

Jean: Be in the world,

Alison: Which is what I kind of love. Yeah,

Jean: I’m looking forward to it.

Alison: Me, too. I can’t wait. Okay, here he is. Here’s Stephen.

Alison:  Hi.

Stephen: HI, Nice to meet you.

Jean: Hello, I’m Jean,

Alison: And I’m Alison.

Stephen: Hi, Jean. Hi, Alison. I’m Stephen.

Alison: Hi, Stephen. Hi. It’s so nice to be able to talk to you.

Stephen: Oh, this this is very fun for me too. So I love being a guest on podcast because I get to meet so many different people from so many different backgrounds who ask me completely different questions.

Jean: Yeah, sure.

Stephen: Yeah. I like to be challenged.

Alison: Oh. That’s great.

Jean: Yes. And you are calling in from Montreal?

Stephen: That’s right.

Jean: Okay, great. Great. We’re in California.

Stephen: Yeah.

Jean: Yeah.

Stephen: So I figured that out at 2:00 when I thought. Yeah.

Jean: I’m so sorry about that… I mean.

Stephen:  we both forgot about it. It’s rather unusual because it’s always a preoccupation, isn’t it?

Jean: Yeah. But anyway, here we are. And that’s all that matters. And, um, we are both so onto and into your teachings of the inner monk. They they really are superb. And, um, why don’t we start off with a little bit about your background.

Stephen: Okay.

Jean: How you were raised and.

Alison: Yeah, because the way your, what your parents did is kind of amazing to me.

Jean: And then we’ll get further into to the interview.

Stephen: Okay. Sure. Well, my, my parents were rebels. I suppose my father was rebelling against the Mussolini, uh, because he was a teenager in Italy during the rise of Mussolini, and he wasn’t interested in that stuff at all. Um, and he’d also lost his father at a young age. So, anyway, he was a he was rather an angry young man. Um, he went through the the ritual, the fascists used to do that. If you didn’t agree with them, they’d forced you to drink a bottle of castor oil. Oh, so he went through that. And that was. That was when he left Italy. He joined his cousin in South America who was who had a lion act. Um, it wasn’t a circus. In those days, there were people who had acts, and they went on the street. They went on the road, and they just maybe they teamed up with a couple of other ones, and they built their reputation that way. So he did that for about ten years in south America with his cousin. And then by that time he was involved with the big circuses. He came back to Europe. Excuse me. And he toured with Bertram Mills Circus, which was the biggest circus in Europe at the time. And that’s where he met my mother, who had run away from a potential career as a post office assistant. And she wanted to be an acrobatic dancer instead. So I didn’t know these people the people I knew, had a very respectable Italian restaurant in the West of England. That’s where I grew up. But, um, I did see the publicity photographs, and I heard the stories, and that’s what fired my imagination. And, um, that made me think that life was for whatever you wanted to do with it. So It’s really up to you.

Jean: It doesn’t have to be like a cookie cutter.

Stephen: Exactly.

Alison: Right. Right. Right. So then, did that inspire? Did that inspire you, or was it. Did it, um, frighten you?

Stephen: Well, it that was my problem, I wasn’t frightened.

Alison: Mhm.

Stephen: I should have been because it inspired me to be reckless.

Alison: Yeah.

Stephen: I’d rather…to make decisions…. I wasn’t making decisions. I was just reacting to the next opportunity. Um, so I was also very unhappy as a child. Um, so the image of my father was fantastic, but the reality of my father was much more oppressive. And my, my main feeling towards him was fear. I was just afraid of him. Um, and I wanted to get away from him as quickly as possible and get away from the family. And that’s really what inspired me. Mhm. Um. To get away. Yeah. What inspired me to a spiritual path was, um. Well, my time in university, I was raised as a Catholic. Um, I didn’t like that very much. I went to Catholic schools, nuns and monks and all of that. Um, but when I got to university, then I decided to become an atheist, which didn’t last very long because there were still so many unanswered questions. So I delved into all sorts of things, and it seemed to me that Buddhism was probably most likely to answer the questions that I had in the way that I would relate to. Um, and by this time I’d hitchhiked to India and, um, I went through a lot of ups and downs. But I arrived in Dharamsala, which is the seat of the Dalai Lama and the Tibetans. And, um, they welcomed me with open arms and.

Jean: And how old are you about, at this time, you’re about, what, 20?

Stephen: I was 22.

Jean: Wow. Okay.

Stephen: Yes. Yeah. And other people like me and of my age and in my background.

Alison: And did you think I’m just going to do this for a little while, or was it this. It seemed as though this was a one way for you. Um, like you weren’t thinking, i’m going to go back or?

Stephen: I wasn’t heading somewhere. I was running away from somewhere. It’s different.

Alison: Yes, very much so.

Stephen: Um,  when I went to school and I went to school in London, I thought, well, this is it. Now I’m going to get my real education. I’m going to learn how to think and how to philosophize and all that stuff. And of course, what they taught me was how to pass exams, which didn’t excite me very much. And then I realized I was because I did social science degree. So I was lined up for a career as a civil servant or something like that, or an academic, and I, I realized I wasn’t I was interested in the subject. Very interested in people’s society, history, um, sociology, all those things still to this day. But in that formal academic setting, I wasn’t made for that. Yeah, I wasn’t, I wasn’t I wouldn’t have been able to to stay. I would have lost my mind. Yeah.

Alison: I love that you say you weren’t made for that because I think, um, right now there’s an issue with people feeling that they have to be a certain way. And, uh. And I love that you’re like you. You were like, I’m not gonna I can’t I can’t do it like that took a certain amount of bravery.

Stephen: Yeah, well, partly bravery and partly, uh, like I say, a fearless, a silly, a stupid fearlessness.

Alison: Right, right.

Stephen: Um. I never looked after my, uh, my career, my finances. Very, very well, in that sense, in a traditional sense. But that’s because I was also focused on not getting sucked into the into conventional life. Um, which there’s nothing wrong with it. In fact, after after the monastery, I left the monastery. I came to Montreal alone. I decided I had to start from scratch again. Um. And I had a terrible time for the first 20 years.

Alison: Wow.

Stephen: Um. And then I met my present wife, Caroline, um, who was extremely conventional. She’s a mother of four children.  she had a nice little suburban house. The whole thing, everything that i always avoided.

Jean: the white picket fence..

Stephen: Yeah, the whole thing. And and I was happy, and I couldn’t quite understand it. But I also decided I wasn’t going to run away from this.

Alison: Yes.

Stephen: Um, and it’s been it’s been the best. Uh. Well, now it’s 25 years. It’s been the best 25 years so far.

Jean: Lovely. That’s beautiful. Yeah.

Stephen: It’s not easy, it’s complicated… She’s a life coach now, which is wonderful. So we have we have a lot of conversation. We have a lot in common. She also suffers from MS. She’s had MS for 35 years now. Um, so that’s that’s an ongoing challenge. Yes. Um, yeah. It’s it’s something special to go through. I can’t say that we’re going through it together. Of course, she’s the one with the disease, not me. But, I mean, I’m with her every day. We, you know, we share the stories. We know what’s happening. Disappointments, the sadness, the all of that. And it’s a very powerful bond. I wouldn’t change it for anything. Yeah.

Alison: Yeah. Having a long term friend or a partner is really, I think, one of the most beautiful experiences in life. I agree that you really can look back on and say remember when. And really see the changes in growth in your relationship. You know that’s beautiful.

Stephen: If you meet someone like that. Yeah. But it’s not that common.

Alison: No, no,

Stephen: There’s a lot of people in um, at least in flat relationships, and sometimes they’re just unhappy.

Alison: Yeah.

Stephen: And people aren’t willing to to make the effort to change because it hurts, too. There’s nothing worse than a divorce… God… It’s horrible. But I understand why people resist. But sometimes you have to just make a break and change.

Jean: Right. That’s true. Yeah, it’s it’s great that you both found each other and that you both, uh, support each other in the in the way.

Stephen: It’s a real gift. Yeah.

Jean: Yeah. Again, piggybacking on what Alison said, a long term relationship.. It’s, um. If if you can be authentic and vulnerable in it, you can really grow very deep. Versus hopping around. I mean, you know, I mean, and everyone’s got their path, so no judgment. Yeah. Hopping around is good for some. And going deep is good for others.

Stephen: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don’t think we should get moralistic about it, for sure, but I agree with what you say. When you form a real bond with another person, a lifelong bond. It’s something else. It’s really different. You become a different person.

Jean: Yeah.

Stephen: Yeah. But you, like you say, you have to be vulnerable and you have to be open and it’s it’s work. (un transcribable)

Alison: It’s a lot of work. We both, Jean and I both have had long term relationships with Alex and my husband Dan. And, you know, it’s just a long you know, it’s kind of amazing because you can, you know, the age lines mean something different when you’ve been you’ve seen them arrive. Yeah. You know?

Stephen: Yeah. Yeah.

Alison: Can you tell me? So, living in a monastery, we used to discuss this in a class we used to take living in a monastery, i feel like, oh, they really get to be spiritual and peace. And how do I. How do I do that when I’m, like, looking for a parking space? You know, like in the in the world. This world. Right. And so what what was it like to live in a monastery? Yeah.

Stephen: Look, there are there are all sorts of monasteries out there. There are all sorts of Buddhism’s out there, for that matter. Just like there are all sorts of Christianity’s and Judaism’s. I mean, it’s, you know, um, but for me, the monasteries that I was in, they were the Noisiest, raucous places I’ve ever lived.

Alison: Oh my God.

Stephen: So let me tell you about who I studied with. I studied with the Galuppi sect of Tibetan Buddhism. They’re a very scholastic sect. And you’ve probably seen pictures of the debate. They have these very elaborate debate rituals every day. So,  the, monastery consists of, um, at that time there are about 100 adult monks there, about 500 boys, and they’re ordained as, uh, novice monks. And some of them are as young, the youngest one I saw who came into the monastery was three years old, taken away from their mothers and put in here. So it’s all male. Um, there’s a lot of kids. So you’ve got a lot of noise. You got a lot of energy. There’s a lot of teenage boys, so you got a lot of testosterone as well. And that that comes out on the debate ground. Um, the debating is very ritualistic, and there’s a lot of one person sits and the other person stands and throws the questions, and, and there’s spit flying and the voices are raised, and sometimes it comes to a fistfight. Um, so, yeah, probably not what you were expecting for a monastery?

Alison: No I was picturing real quiet. You know, we meditated from four in the morning till 11.

Stephen: Well,now that  is so in other monasteries. Yeah, that’s exactly what happened. I went to Sri Lanka for an extended retreat, and there we were in the forest and it was silent, and we were woken at 3:30 in the morning for breakfast. Um, had lunch just before noon, and that was it. The rest of the day was meditation, an hour of walking meditation, uh, an hour of sitting meditation, half an hour of walking meditation, alternating. Very intense, very quiet. All you could hear was the sound of coconuts dropping from the trees.

Alison: Wow.

Stephen: Yeah. It was really something.

Alison: Yeah.

Jean: I heard you say, Stephen, in an interview, that when you left the monastery, you left with a lot more courage and confidence.

Stephen: And I did. Yeah.

Alison: Why?

Jean: And how do you think that came about?

Stephen: Um. I think it was because, um, I had grown, I felt that I had grown. I didn’t feel that before from all my education that, you know, primary, secondary, even university. I didn’t feel that I was really getting anywhere, that I’d established anything or that I had any… I had no moral foundation. But with Buddhism, and this is a complicated thing to say, because I don’t consider myself a Buddhist anymore. But Buddhist Buddhism, in that context, and the way I studied and the people I studied with and the encouragement and the feedback I got, it gave me a sense of solidity. And it was from that time in my life, when I look back, that is the formative period of my life- in my 20s, which is a little strange.

Alison: Yeah.

Stephen: When I look back on my actual childhood, all I recall is confusion and embarrassment.

Alison: Mhm.

Stephen: Yeah.

Alison:  Embarrassment.

Stephen: Yeah.

Alison: Yeah.

Stephen: Well, you know, that’s a mild form of guilt isn’t it.

Alison: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Felt guilty. Yeah.

Stephen: So how was the troublemaker. I was a problem for my family and they couldn’t understand me, the couldn’t make heads or tails…. and I can understand why- I don’t, you know, I can’t fault them for it. I was a mess. Um, but, uh, yeah. So that’s  the way the confidence came from. And it’s been tremendous. In fact, it was for a while, going from extreme lack of confidence, um, I went to the other extreme, i became cocky.  Um, arrogance.   Yeah, I figured I had I, I knew what was going on. Yeah. You got.

Alison: Exactly. You got it.

Stephen: That’s it.

Alison: But when you’re just walking along and hearing the coconuts, I think, why? Why would you leave?

Stephen: Well, because it’s it’s not real.

Alison: It’s not real.

Stephen: It’s not real. And this echoes an episode in the Buddha’s life where he, um, he was he grew up very privileged. Okay? He came from a wealthy family. Uh, he was destined to take over from his father, who was the chief of the clan. So he was looking at a life of responsibility, and he’d have to make decisions, and he’d have to sentence people to punishments and things like that. And at the age of 29, he walked away from it. He lived the rest of his life homeless. Um. I’ve lost my thread now?

Alison: Why? Why would you leave?

Stephen: Um. So why do I leave the monastery?

Alison: Why would you? When you were describing walking along and hearing coconuts in choir.

Stephen: Sorry. Yeah. Thanks. Okay.. So the Buddha does all this stuff, and he meets a couple of teachers, and they train him, and they get so excited over his progress that they say, you know, please come and join us, you can be you can be the leader. And he said, no, it’s no good. And they say, what do you mean.. you’ve attained the highest possible state? And he said, yes, the highest meditative state, but then I have to come back. And then my knees hurt and my back aches and life is stressful. And so that to me is a very realistic story of the Buddha as a man. But when you talk to Buddhists, you get a different story, which is that he was the Buddha. He didn’t suffer from any pain.

Alison: Mhm.

Stephen: And but that doesn’t make sense , he had a body, right. He’s lived on this planet. Right? So of course he’s gonna he’s gonna stub his toe and he’s going to hurt. And  the stresses of life are real. Th,ey’re not imaginary. You can’t escape it by reaching a certain state of mind. You can escape it by closing your eyes and going into meditative trance. But again he said, no, that’s no good. I need something more, which is to maintain a meditative space through life, through active life, through this conversation, through every conversation, through a violent argument to to be present, to be aware of what’s going on and to understand it doesn’t mean to be perfectly at peace all the time. It does mean to be there, to be present, to be taking responsibility for your life. And that’s the that’s the greatest thing we can ask for.

Alison: And that’s what I really responded to. Looking at your interviews, reading all your things, it’s that  you are wanting me to be in my life, but also be, um, uh, peaceful? Or is that peaceful? . Maybe not all the time?

Stephen: Exactly. Well you can’t. Who’s peaceful all the time?

Alison: Right, right, right. And your idea that we all have an inner monk that almost made me cry. Like I found that so moving because I felt like maybe that’s something that I hadn’t, um embraced or allowed in as much. Could you, could you describe that a little bit for our for our listeners?

Stephen: Yeah. Well, I was trained, uh, in classical Tibetan and Buddhist, uh, psychology, among among other things. And, um, in Buddhist psychology, mindfulness is one of the 51 mental factors. Um, okay. So the mind says you’ve got your mind, which is just consciousness itself. And then there are 51 mental factors, such as happiness and guilt and, um, anger and these different things. So one of these, uh, fundamental mental factors is mindfulness. So when I hear people talk about mindfulness as if it’s, um, a method or it’s a tradition or a belief system, then I try and get them away from that. It’s none of that stuff. You don’t have to study it. You’ve got it,

Stephen: You just have to use it. And if you’re not sure what it is. Think about this. A few years ago, you were born, you came out of your mother’s womb, you took your first breath and you started to know things. Okay? You knew where you were. You know where the food is. You know where the warmth is. You know where the safety is. So you’re you’re gradually making sense of this world, not just the world. You’re making sense of your body. You don’t even know how to use your fingers. You know the babies when they’re doing all that. It’s so cool. They’re discovering them. They are pure mindfulness. That’s what mindfulness is. It’s not complicated. It’s very simple. They’re right present. And they have no choice but to be present because they have no experience. They’ve got no language, they’ve got no memories. They’ve got none of that. But as we grow and as we develop memories and the sense of identity and we build this sense of ego, then we get distracted by all the things that we have to do and all the things that we have to prove. And then we get complicated, and then we have to pay money to go and learn mindfulness. It’s crazy.

Jean: Yeah. I mean, I love that you say,That awareness attention is like a muscle. The more you can strengthen it. That’s so great. Do you think is is being focused and attention the same?

Alison: Yes. Yeah. And well focus is an extended attention.

Jean: Yeah, right. Do you notice the people in your class? Do they? Do they come to you with, um, attention deficit disorder or do you notice any of that?

Stephen: Oh, yeah. I that’s I suffer from that myself. That’s one of the reasons I started doing this. I wanted to get some control of my mind.

Jean: I love that.  And so you’re a teacher of meditation. Is that correct?

Stephen: That’s right. Oh, yeah. Mindfulness meditation. Yeah. Three times a week.

Alison: That you are for me, bringing up that mindfulness also is discovery.

Stephen: Absolutely.

Alison: And I’ve never thought that. I thought I thought mindfulness or mindfulness meditation was inner, was not discovery because discovery feels– I know they don’t exist, but outer in a way.

Stephen: Yes, I know what you mean, well it is. We’re learning to see ourselves in a more objective way. Right?  I don’t want to just be angry. I want to be able to see myself becoming angry. And I want to know what the triggers are. And I want to know if I’m overdoing it when I respond or if I’m doing responding appropriately, because anger is sometimes justified, you know, I read the news every morning, i get angry. If I didn’t, I, I would be upset with myself. There are things that we should be angry about. Right?

Alison: Right. So then what..

Stephen: Is the right and wrong? Sorry…

Alison: What steps do you take? Because we’re living in a time that, That is exactly what all our friends are saying. Like, how can I be, um, spiritual, peaceful, meditative, mindful and still read the news?

Stephen: You have to accept that being spiritual is not something separate from being material.

Jean: I love that you say that.

Alison: Mhm.

Stephen: Okay. ,It’s not separate. This is the problem with the, the image of the Buddha who’s always sitting in perfect meditation in complete silence, it’s very misleading. Um, in Asia Buddhist monks don’t meditate very much. Well they’re active. They’re busy. They look after the poor. They they study. They also, I mean, there’s lots of different things, but meditation is just one bit. It’s not the whole thing. And the whole point of meditation is not to isolate you from the world. It’s to be able to bring a little bit of that peace out into the world. It’s after you get up. That’s when the real work begins. And that’s where the transformation begins. Because if you’re sitting in perfect peace for an hour or for a day, or for a bloody year, when you come back, nothing’s changed.

Alison: Yeah.

Stephen: So we do have a responsibility to change, to maintain the world. Um, and things are…  bad people are taking control and they’re gaining the upper hand, and we can’t let that happen. Um, you know, some people will take up arms. Some people will just meditate, talk, encourage other people to resist whatever. We have to be involved to some extent, because this is our life. We created this. We allow this if we don’t challenge it.

Alison: Um.

Stephen: But we’ve also got to keep our balance. And so I also, you know, I read the horrible headlines and sometimes I read the articles and then I’ll watch a cat video, you know, but it’s…. Laughter is very important.

Jean: Thank you. Like Binki The Cat.

Alison: That’s right, that’s right. That’s one of my favorite.

Stephen: You’re a cat person. Um. We play. We watch TV, you know? I mean, it’s it’s important to find balance, but you’ve got to keep your hopes up. But you’ve also got to meet people and see people who are committed to, to a life of, of real value. Um, and that’s why I keep teaching, because,  that’s where I meet people. And that’s what keeps me positive, keeps me going. Uh, I believe in growth, and I think I think we can do better. Much better.

Jean: Like, when the mind is so active, it’s really hard to reach your full potential. I know for me, when I’m worried and my mind is looping over the same thing or the worry or oh, I wish I didn’t say that… Just just overthinking. um, I know the tools that I use and I wanted to ask you, what are some tools that you can offer our listeners when your mind just, you know, as you’re really worried or can you talk about that?

Stephen: Well, When that happens, okay, we’re talking about the 2:00 in the morning mindset, right?  when your eyes being open and….

Alison: Yes. Yes.

Stephen: Okay.  Well, when that happens, um, the biggest the mistake that most people make  is to fight with those thoughts. I don’t want you thoughts, go away- i don’t want you. And so you sign up for a meditation course and the teacher tells you, empty your mind of thoughts. So you’re sitting there trying to empty these thoughts away. And what are you doing that with? You’re doing it with other thoughts and you’re telling your thoughts to– it doesn’t make sense and you just get tangled up. So the the first rule of mindfulness, when you’re concerned about your thoughts and your rapidity of your thoughts. Is to watch them. Let them be. Let them come into your mind. Let them go out. Don’t struggle with them. There’s a knack to it. It takes a while to figure it out. It’s not difficult, but it’s unfamiliar. You just accept it, okay? I’m worried about. I teach a group of of, uh, cancer patients every week. Um, so we talk about anxiety a lot there, because once you’re diagnosed, then the anxiety is there for the rest of your life, one way or another. Um, and it’s this continual resistance. I don’t want this. I don’t. That’s the problem. When you can identify that mind in which you’re resisting and you can say, there’s the resistance. What you’re doing is naming different states of mind. You’re naming anxiety. You’re naming resistance. Your naming denial. As soon as you see the thoughts and you put a name on them. There’s an objectivity which comes. There’s a distance between you and those sorts. They’re not you. They’re just something that happens. That’s that’s how mindfulness unfolds. So it’s not complicated, but it’s not easy. It takes practice.

Alison:  When you say pass through, my thoughts want to stay and camp out and bring other thoughts in. Like my my thoughts sometimes just don’t go. Like it feels like… And are you suggesting that maybe it’s because I’m wrestling with them in my mind? Just see them and go, oh there’s that.

Stephen: Yeah. You see there, there there are different…. The practice of mindfulness comes in four cycles. Okay. You start with the body, then the emotions, then your thoughts, then your experience. Okay. So as you go through these cycles, you begin to see how your mind works, how your thoughts and your feelings are reflected in your body, in your posture, in tension, in your body. Anything like that. And you start to see how all of this is connected. So as you’re struggling with these thoughts, you can also bring your attention into the body and see how it’s expressed physically. So you’re looking deeper into it. So yeah I’m thinking about what’s going to happen to me, uh, you know, when I go to see the doctor next week. Um, and I’ve got a knot in my stomach and and I feel crappy, I feel scared. You start naming all of this stuff, and what you’re doing is, you may not be making those thoughts, those scary thoughts go away. But you are noticing and putting together these connections. You’re seeing how your mind functions  and as you become more and more familiar with that, you start to see things before they even really mature. You feel that something in your stomach or in your shoulders, you know, and oh, I’m angry. And you start to see those mind states in their infancy, as it were before. They’ve developed into this full blown series of thoughts that you can’t escape. You can catch it at an earlier stage where you can take a breath and let go and take another breath and let go, because whatever you let go of it will come back. But not quite the same way. Each time you let go, you’re strengthening your muscle of attention and you’re weakening the muscle of automaticity.

Alison: Oh, wonderful. Yeah, because that is that. That’s the automatic… I’ve worked so hard on that automatic response.

Stephen: Yeah.

Alison: Since Childhood. So yes, that’s exactly right.

Stephen: So I would expand on that a little bit, which is that, um, when I walk into a room and my nemesis is standing there looking at me, glowering, ready to kill me. Okay. I’m ready to respond because I know him. Okay? I’m he’s going to call me a jerk, and I’m going to call him something else, right? But if I’m present, i can walk into that room saying, okay, I’m going to see this guy, and he’s going to be standing there and he’s going to be looking for a fight, and I don’t have to respond to that. So I prepared myself. So I walk into the room, he calls me a name, I don’t respond. So what we’re doing here is, we got stimulus and we have a response and one triggers the other. But what I’m doing is I’m bringing my conscious attention into it, and I’m widening this gap so that even though he gives me the stimulus, I have now a choice I can choose– well, I could just strike back, but on the other hand, I could do something different this time, maybe shift the conversation. Maybe I can just turn around and leave. Or maybe I can say something different. Or maybe, yeah, I should call him a jerk. But the point is, you have, it’s that space that you’re widening between stimulus and response. That’s where the that’s where the opportunities arise.

Alison: Oh that’s fantastic.

Stephen: And you can change your reactivity. You can change the way you behave in the world. And that’s a transformation. You’re not turning yourself into a different person. You’re just no longer giving in to those habitual ways of being.

Alison: Yes. Jean and I have talked about, sometimes– if someone asks us to do something, we’ll say yes before they finish their question. And then sometimes we feel like, or I feel like, wait, what am I doing? Like, I don’t really,  I don’t really want to get in your car or I’m carrying you up a mountain, like…. And now, I just take a minute and try to say I have to think about it. Can I get back to you and just have it that.

Stephen: Yeah.

Alison: Allow me a minute. Because sometimes I –people would be like, oh, today, you know, you’re, you’re operating on my brain tumor… I’d be like, wait, what? What am I doing? You know, like and…

Stephen: This is the purpose of formal meditation. You know, I mean, you sit for ten minutes in the morning and you do your meditation. It feels good. And like I say, what happens next is what really counts. But the point is, you’ve you’ve made that little practice and you’ve you’ve reminded yourself that I have access to my breath any time of day, so that when you do come to a situation where you’re afraid of overreacting, you can do that, you can take the breath because, it’s still fresh in you, it’s still very familiar, and you identify with it in a very important way. So that if that breath is available to you, just one breath, it takes you back to that very familiar place where you can be clear and objective and you make better decisions.

Jean: Yeah. Right. Right.

Stephen: Yeah.

Jean:  And and I love again, i don’t know where I heard you say, but it you you become happy with inside, and the outside world isn’t so pulling at you. And you’re not, you don’t feel like a pincushion. You know, you have, um, congruent vibration within yourself. And, you know, the outside stimulus don’t have such a trigger on you. So, um, and you also speak about the consistency of meditation, which is probably where I drop the ball.

Stephen: Because that’s the problem. Yeah, that’s the problem for everybody.

Jean: Yeah. And I’m like, you know, doing it, and then for whatever reason,

Alison: Yeah,

Jean: I’m going to say like three weeks in, I’m like, oh, I’m especially if I’m traveling or if I just get very busy…

Alison: Yeah,

Stephen: I can do it tomorrow. We’ll do it tomorrow.

Alison: Exactly. Okay. But you’ve been eavesdropping, Stephen.

Jean: That’s right. You say the inner monk is finding value in your own self… That is so beautiful.

Alison: Yeah.

Stephen: If you find it, I mean, it is there for all of us to be a human being… Look, I mean, I hate those old stories where, you know, we’re the only ones with a soul, and all the animals are soulless and they don’t feel pain. But, we’re different in one way, which is that we can change. We can change our behavior. We can change the way we see. And that’s incredible. And it’s an opportunity. We can completely transform our automaticity. We don’t have to just be a series of habits. On the other hand, it is possible to live your whole life from cradle to grave as one habit after another. People do it all the time. It’s, um. Yeah, that terrifies me. That’s what really scared me more than anything else back in the day when I didn’t want to become a civil servant. Yeah.

Alison: You just you would just grow up to be a series of habits, and that would be one of them.

Stephen: That’s what I was afraid of. Yeah.

Jean: Mhm. Yeah. Yeah.

Stephen: And that can happen anywhere. And I swear to God that can happen in a Buddhist monastery too.

Alison: Right.

Stephen: Okay. It’s not different.

Alison: But you have habits now right. Yes. Or you have the picket fence like and and how how why why are those refreshing for you or inspiring.

Stephen: Well, it’s not the picket fence, which is refreshing, it’s me. Well, I am, or I’m not. Either I can look at it,  you know, the picket fence today is not the same as it was yesterday, right?

Alison: Mhm.

Jean: Right.

Stephen: There are always differences. Are you looking for what’s new? Are you looking for familiarity? You see, we do– the first thing a neuroscientist will tell you about the human brain is that it’s lazy. That laziness is part of the operating system. We’re always looking for shortcuts. That’s where automaticity comes in. Okay, so when you’re when you’re a child and you’re learning to build with bricks or with Legos takes you a long time just to put the first two pieces together might take you a few minutes, but gradually you get faster and faster at it until it becomes automatic. So automaticity is important because that’s how we learn, but also we learn things and then we don’t think about them anymore. So when you’re building up something with bricks, that’s one thing. But when you’re developing a relationship with somebody and you get into an argumentative state where you get stuck, where it’s not just an argument, but it’s it’s a repetitive resentment that just keeps getting deeper and deeper. Then that also is a product of Automaticity, and that is the sort of habit we want to uproot. So we have to know what’s what, what is the important habits. And you know, what do I have to change and what do I want to change? What what’s keeping me stuck? That’s the bottom line, right?

Alison: And, you know, it’s interesting we talked to so many people. We’ve done like over 60 interviews. And the thing that keeps coming up, that I never thought about before we started this, is in a life that seems truly meaningful and authentic is curiosity.

Stephen: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. It’s Number one.

Alison: Is the thing. And, you know, it’s not really talked about like curiosity killed the cat or blah, blah, blah. But I have to say, that’s like a thematic and listening to you, curiosity and discovery are so important. Self and outward.

Stephen: Yeah, yeah. What can I be?

Jean: Yeah. Right.

Stephen: You don’t know. And that’s wonderful. It means I can find out, you know?

Alison: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. You’re so, um, you’re so, um, down to earth.

Stephen: Huh? I try to be. Yeah.

Jean: You’re very humble.

Alison: And I love that because, you know, when we. When we read your bio, um, because someone… I was like, oh, man, this guy’s going to be, like, sitting in the lotus position, floating.. I better I better get on it.

Stephen: I do my best to pop that bubble whenever I can. Yeah. And I come from a background, i mean, all those years I was with, um, super spiritual people… Um, and I see how people get carried away with ideas and, and, um, the idea of magic powers and, um, transcending the, you know, ordinary material life and and I’m not, to me, the point is not whether these things are possible or not, but you know what’s important? Yeah. Is it important to escape this life and feel personal bliss, or is it important to to actually contribute, to bring something back into this world and make the whole world a little bit more peaceful before I die? Um, and it’s that because when I give and when I see the effect of my giving, then that makes me feel happy in a way that nothing else does. There’s a satisfaction in that that you don’t find anywhere else. Uh, you don’t get it for money, for sure. You don’t get it from power. You get it from connecting. You feel that connection to other people. Connection is what it’s all about. Love is what it’s all about. But you’ve got to start by loving yourself. And that’s what a lot of people don’t do.

Alison: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Stephen: They beat themselves up all the time. I’m no good at meditation. I can’t do this. I hear that all the time. Yeah.

Alison: And what do you say?

Stephen: I say yes, you can. And I try and show them. I sit them down, and I try and show them that because they’re consumed with this idea of I’ve got to get these negative thoughts out of my mind, that this is the big problem with with so-called spirituality, the idea that you should be positive, everything should be positive, and negative thoughts are bad. You should you shouldn’t push them away. Get them out of sight. No, it’s not going to work. If you don’t address negativity, it simmers. Still, there comes out in unconscious ways. You have to address it. You have to see it. Well, I’m feeling very angry. Okay, well, is it justified or not? Yes. Anger is just people are shocked when I tell them that it’s sometimes. But you’re a meditation teacher.

Alison: You can’t do that.

Stephen: When you meet a bad person and he’s behaving badly. You should be angry.  hello?  why is that complicated? But it’s how you respond to that. And what do we do with that anger? You know, if we just become violent about it, then that’s no good. And it’s difficult. It’s a difficult emotion to deal with because it’s so powerful and it’s so instant, and it’s one of the most important emotions, especially today. We have to understand how to channel our anger into constructive ways.

Jean: Yeah.

Stephen: Yeah. Because you can’t just lash out if you go lashing out on on social media. You’re just going to get a whole pile of people jumping on you and, It’s tricky. It’s hard. Yeah. These are dark times.

Alison: These are hard times.

Jean: I think they require more of ourselves rather than just that response. So I, I think what you’re offering to, you know, whoever gets the privilege to listen to you is, is a chance to bring more of your authentic self, your wisdom, your kindness into the world.

Alison: You’re wonderful.

Jean: Yeah. Thank you so much.

Stephen: Oh, that’s very sweet. Thank you.

Stephen: Well, I really admire what you’re doing as well. I mean, you’re going to a lot of efforts to bring some positivity into this world, which seems to want nothing but negativity nowadays. So that’s wonderful.

Alison: Yes. Thank you for seeing that and for saying yes…you are really just so interesting to me because I feel like I could be your pal and learn from you as opposed to, like, just be reverential of you.

Stephen: Oh, no. I’ve gone to great effort to avoid that. Not just to me, but to the figure of the Buddha as well. If the Buddha is some sort of god, you know, who sort of floats on the clouds, then  i can’t really relate to that… I don’t quite see how that can help me.

Jean: Right.

Stephen: I need to relate to a human being there who went through struggle and, you know, found out the hard way. That’s what I relate to. So that’s the way I tried to teach. Yeah, yeah. And from experience, not from books.

Alison: Yeah. I think that’s so true, I think. I think your classes must be fantastic. So we’ll direct people to your website where you share your offerings.

Stephen:  Well, it’s – Mindfulnesslive.CA

Jean: Okay.

Stephen: Okay. Because we’re in Canada. So the the program is called Mindfulness Live, and I teach Monday, Wednesdays and Fridays at 12 noon for half an hour. So it’s brief, but it’s continuous. So every week you get these three guided meditations and then you get the recording afterwards. And then there’s an archive. I’ve been doing this for six years now I think. So there’s an archive of several hundred. Um, and this is what gives you the continuity. Like I say, everybody who sits to answer to meditation, they do a mindfulness based stress reduction course and they love it. You go into a silent retreat. They love it. But when they come home and they discover that the rest of their family is sort of, oh, that’s a little weird. I’m not doing that-  then  um, it’s hard to keep up the motivation. So I’m trying to provide support here, and it’s a wonderful group we’ve got…It’s really cool.

Jean: Excellent.

Jean: That’s wonderful. We have two wrapping up questions. Yeah. And the first one is um, our podcast is called Inside Wink. And what do you think inside wink means?

Stephen: Well, my first thought was that it’s, um, of course, this is my projection, i’m sure everybody gives their own projection. It’s that I’m giving myself permission to explore myself. I’m going inside. I’m the inner monk, right.. You’re talking about the inside wink, and I’m going, yeah, that’s all right, you can do that.

Alison:  that is fantastic.

Jean: I love that.

Alison: Yeah. Every everyone sees it through their own, you know, facet, which we love because all the answers are right. And and, you know, that’s a beautiful thing. Yeah. Thank you.

Stephen: Wonderful.

Jean: Okay. And then do you prefer cake, pie or ice cream?

Stephen: Ah. Okay.

Alison: Yeah?

Stephen: I always like cake best. Yeah. My mum taught me to to cook. To bake when I was very young because I was always asking for cake. And she said make it yourself. So I learned how to cook it.

Alison:  What’s your favorite?

Stephen: My favorite cake. Uh, I think my favorite is, uh, it’s a lemon and blueberry cinnamon cake, which we have. We make it for breakfast. It goes really well with coffee. It’s not too sugary, right? It’s very light. Uh, and it goes great with a nice cup of cappuccino. Yeah.

Alison: Oh, that sounds really good. You’re making me very happy.

Stephen: I grew up in a restaurant. You probably. You probably knew that. Yeah. So I developed an attachment to food at a very young age.

Alison: Well, being Italian, I’m Italian too,

Stephen: Yeah, that’s. That’s the real religion, right?

Jean:  there’s this comedian, Sebastian Maniscalco, and he says something to the effect that, let the Italians cater the Seder.

Stephen:  it makes sense. hahaha

Alison: Well, thank you so, so much. This has been wonderful.

Jean: Yeah.

Stephen: It’s been a pleasure. It was really a pleasure to get to know you and wish you the best of luck. I hope to see you again.

Alison: . Thank you. And have a beautiful day.

Stephen: Thank you. Same to you. Take care.

Jean: Bye bye.

Jean: Nice job.

Alison: Thank you. So, what an interesting man.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: Oh, God. And I’m saying thank you.

Jean: No.

Alison: Perfect.

Jean: No, that was right. Okay.

Alison: What an interesting man.

Jean: Yeah, I would have… I wanted to talk a little bit more about his monastery, his life there. But, um, you know, we only have so much time. But what he did share was just so helpful.

Alison: And also that he, he really is not like push it out of your head, which I really think is refreshing. I like that, I like that the people that we’re talking to or being like, hey humans suffer. Mhm. Here are some tools. Not like oh if you’re suffering you’re really not, you’re not doing too well. Not spiritual. You’re not…you know??

Jean:  well that whole word spiritual I know, I know Steven mentioned in another podcast or maybe this one, I don’t recall that, he’s not a big fan of that word. Yeah. Um, just that it has so many different connotations. Right. So he’s just really someone that gives such great tools to live a fulfilled, happy, responsible, aware life.

Alison: Yeah. I think even just listening to his TEDx talk will help people, going to his website– if you can do his his, um, his was a mindfulness meditation, that would be wonderful. I think anyone that can recognize that these times are tough and have an idea how to keep us along the lines of peace, is really worthwhile right now.

Jean: Yeah.  that is so true. Well, thank you so much for listening. And thank you, Stephen. This was a wonderful, beneficial, uh, conversation.

Alison: Wonderful. Thank you so, so much. And have a great day. Bye.

Jean: Bye bye.

Alison: Bye bye.