Podcast Episode 94: Meygan and Casey Caston

Alison: Okay, here we go again.

Jean: Well, hi. It’s so great to see you after, uh, what, five weeks?

Alison: Yeah, like a month. Five weeks? We haven’t seen each other. Just just very, very briefly in the middle. Because you were in New York.

Jean: I was in New York visiting my mother and  my son and my sister and you..

Alison: I went many places Sedona, Grand Canyon, Zion, and then just, you know, to fill it out, to balance it off. We went to Las Vegas.

Jean: But I, I actually think a lot of people do that.

Alison: And I have to say it was great, but you go, oh, man, there’s a lot of people here when you’re like out in the wilderness, you know? Right. But my whole family, we had a great time. It was it was really lovely.

Jean: The photos look great.

Alison: But I missed you.

Jean: I missed you too .

Alison: You, you know, it’s weird.

Jean: But we did get to see each other.

Alison: Mhm.

Jean: Um.

Alison: Because you drove me to the airport..drove us to the airport. When you came back. You’re back, like, for ten minutes and drove us to the airport, so it was wonderful. And that’s where we did this interview. When you were in New York.

Jean: I was in New York, and I wasn’t sure about the internet connection, and I’m so glad it worked because this interview is really beautiful. so we interviewed a couple that wrote a book about marriage, and their names are Casey and Megan Casten.

Alison: And they wrote The Marriage Habit. And it’s a book that really gives you very specific tools and ideas to move your relationship to a deeper understanding of each other, I think, and it’s good. It’s not even has to be about marriage. It could be about friendships, it could be about work relationships, right? It’s really about listening and caring and not being on two sides of it, you know.

Jean: And prioritizing.

Alison: Very good.

Jean: That’s your, uh, your relationship, and, and I just think they gave so many great tips and, and.

Alison: It was so much fun meeting them. They’re funny. They are, they’re two different, like, they’re very different. They’re really fun. So here they are. Um, Megan and Casey.

Megan: Hi, Allison.

Alison: Hello. How are you?

Casey:  hello to both.

Alison: Thanks a lot, you guys.

Megan: Yeah.

Megan: Um, we are not together. I mean, we’re together, but we’re not together.

Alison: Thank God.

Alison: We have the scoop. We have a scoop.

Megan: Yeah. You know, the real behind the scenes with Casey and Megan? Yeah. No, uh, funny story. During Covid, we were, you know, we worked together full time and in probably like either the end of 2020 or beginning of 2021, . I looked at Casey and I said, I love you. I’m so sick of seeing your face all day long. You have to go get an office out of the house. So here we are. Yes,

Alison: I understand that I was I too am married for 33 years and Covid for the four of us, my husband and I and our two kids in this house was a lot of fun.

Megan: A lot. Yeah.

Casey: Our our Christmas card that year was too much togetherness.

Megan: Yeah.

Alison: Exactly. I love that about you guys that you’re so honest and vulnerable about all this.

Megan: Well thank you. Yes.

Alison: You know.

Alison: Some people nowadays just make everything seem like they’re like a panacea of goodness and happiness, and it drives me nuts.

Casey: Yeah. I think people can see through that, too. I think, you know, I think there was, um, you know, Rachel Hollis and her husband were on a podcast a week before laughing and giggling about how great their marriage was, and then the next week they said, oh, we’re divorcing. So I think that that was such a high profile, like example where people are like, you know, hey everybody, we’re talking about marriage. Isn’t it amazing? And they’re like, no, that’s not. We can see through that bullshit.

Alison: Totally, I totally agree. Hi, Jeannie.

Jean: Hi there. Oh, it’s great to see you, Alison.

Casey: do you go by Jeannie?

Alison:  i just, I just that’s just my nickname for her.

Casey: That’s cute. I love it.

Jean: We see each other a lot. So when I don’t see Alison, I’m like, oh, there she is.

Jean: Because yeah as I mentioned, I’m not in LA right now.

Alison: We’re like hanging out all the time. So it’s, it’s it’s great. Um, I just wanted to start off by asking you to talk a little bit about yourselves to give our listeners an idea of where you’re coming from and who you are. And then I have some questions I can’t wait to get into.

Megan: Casey, you want to start or do you want me to start?

Casey: Why don’t you start, babe?

Megan: Okay. Are you eating something, Casey?

Casey: I got I got a little mint. That’s why I’m getting I’m getting.

Megan: I’m like, are you eating? Are we are we that casual with these guys? We’re like, oh, we’re just going to have our lunch. Yeah.

Casey: I’ll peel my orange in just a second.

Megan: Oh, gosh. Okay.

Jean: don’t ake us into the bathroom.

Alison: I love that.

Megan: All right. Well, we actually are college sweethearts. We met the first day I moved out of my mom’s house when I was 18 years old. And Casey was in, on the freshman welcoming committee of our college, and we joke that he did a great job welcoming me. And I also learned later on that he joined that freshman welcoming committee so he could meet his…. He could meet a girl. So, you know, there was there was something there was an incentive behind there. Um, but yeah, there was definitely sparks right away. And, uh, we were friends for a few months. We dated. Everything was great. We thought, let’s do this forever. This is so fun. We’re connected. And then we got married. And we didn’t realize how much our childhood would have impacted our adult life and our marriage. And between Casey and I and our parents, there’s there’s 12 marriages. So our parents have been married 12 times. Oh, yeah. So we only knew blended family, divorce, remarriage, chaos. And I guess we just really went blindly into marriage thinking, well, that’s not going to be us. And it almost, if anything, it trauma bonded us like, well, we don’t want that to happen to us. But we had no skills, no relationship education. And so within three years of being married, we were heading towards divorce.

Alison: Wow.

Megan: Yeah. And it was not obviously, no one gets married thinking they’re going to get divorced or they wouldn’t get married. And we just couldn’t believe that we were at that place. And so I grew up in a home where therapy was very normalized and very much so praised. Casey grew up in a home where only crazies go to therapy. So I had begged him to go to therapy with me and he said, no, you’re the problem. I’m not the problem. And I’m like, well, actually, you’re the problem, Casey, and I’m not the problem. So we were doing this thing, the pointing of the fingers.

Alison: Yeah.

Megan: And finally I went by myself and it was the best thing that I could have ever done. And the therapist asked me two questions that changed my life. She said, have you done everything and anything you can to save your marriage so you don’t live with regret? And I knew the answer was no. I had not done everything. And she said, well, thank you for being honest because most people haven’t done everything. And then she said, if you want to make a better marriage, it starts by making a better you.  I hear you so focused on Casey and what he’s doing and what he’s not doing, and he’s not here to defend himself. But you’re here, and I know that you’ve admitted you’ve got some growth areas. So let’s work on you. And so for 13 months, I worked on our marriage and I did a complete 180 on myself.

Casey: And and I will say that Megan, when she changed, you know, I want you to imagine two people dancing a tango, right? You know, the one partner makes a step to the left, the other partner has to respond. And so midway through our dance, Megan changed up from the tango to, you know, a sexy rumba or whatever it is. And I had to respond to that. So when when I hear a lot of people saying, like, I’m stuck in my marriage, actually you have more power to create change than you think you have. So when she changed, you know, and I was still stuck in my own ways, I remember this moment where we were screamers and yellers when we first were married. We would scream until 2 a.m. in the morning because we just thought, well, we got to resolve this. But of course, that didn’t happen. And so I come into the living room and my face is all red. I’m just like, you know, I’m going to tell you what you need to hear right now. You’re so that, you know, she saw it coming her way, saw me coming her way. And she stood up and with the, like the calmest, like spa voice, she’s all, hey, I can understand you’re really upset right now.

Casey: And I want to have a conversation where we actually resolve our issues in a healthy way. Uh, why don’t you take a walk outside, come back and be sitting on this couch, and I’m going to be waiting for you, and then we can talk. And I’m, I’m here to listen. And I mean, the next thing that happened was my jaw hitting the floor. Like what? Like you’re supposed to respond in kind. This was the dance that we had. And she made such a change that like over time, it was like, I’m the one that’s the unhealthy spouse now. And because we’re so competitive, I was not going to live in a world where she was more healthy than me. So I’m like, I’m going to out health you and I’m going to get better than you. And I’ve been chasing that dream for 25 years or so. But that was the change that required. And I gotta say, like looking back, I think our journey is actually the typical story of every couple. It’s this is not like maybe we have some extremes. Like my mom’s been married six times.

Alison: Wow.

Casey: She’s not even a celebrity. Okay.

Casey: So like, yeah, like we, we have some extremes, but we’re like the every couple journey of like, hey, let’s do dating because this is let’s do marriage because dating was so easy. It’s not going to change much. And, and we’re just going to set off. But very few people have a healthy role model to chase after. Um, we don’t see a lot in culture or entertainment this like what is a healthy marriage look like? We see this, you know, a very twisted version of it, whether it’s the Hallmark Channel, it’s the Bachelor, Love Island. Okay, i guess this is what love is all about. But that’s not reality. Marriage is actually much more boring. You know, it’s showing up in all the daily moments. Not these big, you know, fantasy, sweet experiences.

Megan: Can I correct you? Don’t say boring. Say mundane.  Because I do not think that we have a boring marriage. I’m just going to say like, we are not…. We are not boring in our house. I’m like, we’re not boring at all.

Megan: Yeah, we’re both pretty stubborn.

Casey: I’m the thrill seaker over here.

Megan: Yeah, yeah.

Alison: That is that is exactly right. I think you know that we are so inundated with with false images, and to try to aspire to something like that is impossible. And that’s why your book was so was so great, i thought, you know,

Megan: Thank you.

Jean: Yeah. I mean, right out the gate you say your tagline, make a better you, make a better marriage. And, and that gives such empowerment and hope to whoever is struggling, you know, and, and, um, just, just because, okay, I, I, maybe my partner will not come to therapy, but I at least can, can work on myself until I’ve exhausted all, all resources. So yeah, it, this book was wonderful and it was so full of great practical, intentional tips. And I love also that you use the word intentional and yeah, that’s…

Casey: Yeah well, this, this book summarizes basically Megan and I. So to kind of catch you up to today, we spent we’ve spent the last, I’d say 15 plus years really trying to understand is happily ever after just a myth? Or can it be possible for someone to, to pursue? And what we realized, Jean, is that there’s one quality between couples that are struggling and those that are thriving, and that’s by being intentional. And so for the past 15 years, we’ve been coaching couples on how to create these systems, these structures, these habits, these habits that help couples, uh, create a, a healthy rhythm of constant connection and guarantee it.

Alison: And what, what I really liked about some of them is that they’re very specific.

Megan: Yes.

Alison: They’re not just like, you know, do better, you know, help cook, you know what I mean? Or like, like, like that, that known and also the 62 second  blessing. And I think those things are, and I think I want to make like an eight by ten poster of that forgiveness page that that I’m sorry page.

Megan: Yeah.

Alison: How to apologize.

Megan: Yeah.

Megan:  we say specific is terrific.

Alison: Yeah.

Megan: We, we often give very vague answers. And I’m just going to say this about women as I am one, I think we tell our husband, love me more, listen better, be present… And you know what he’s hearing blah blah blah.

Alison: What dogs hear.

Megan: Yeah, yeah.

Megan: And you’ll hear a lot of women say, I want to emotionally connect and I love that. But I really, what does that look like that might look like to you, Allison. Something very different than it looks like to me, to Casey, to Jean. Right. Like there’s not and this is why we need to be specific. And we’re trying to show couples and teach them different ways on how to be able to do that to where you walk away going, I know tangibly how I can measure success in my marriage. I tried this tactic, right? Yeah. Because we all know we’re supposed to communicate.

Alison: Right?

Megan: There are thousands of communication techniques and tools out there.

Alison: Exactly.

Megan: Right. And what does it mean? Yeah.

Megan: And what does it mean and what does it look like? And yeah, we know we should forgive. But what does that actually look like on a day to day basis?

Alison: Right. That’s exactly it. That’s why I really liked – that i’m sorry thing, is so not what we do, we do here sometimes in my home …it is a lot of like, I’m sorry, but or let me just tell you see, you know, it’s a lot of like, like, you know, mock trial debate going on, I didn’t know, so that was very useful.

Alison: I like that.

Megan: This is really helpful to know because I do this, i did the same thing. I would say I’m sorry to Casey, but— and then I’d go into the explanation, and what I’m doing is there was a true explanation as to why I yelled or why I forgot, or why I was on my phone, right? Or why I didn’t initiate sex like there was a genuine explanation. There always is to everything that we do.

Alison: Yep.

Megan: The thing is, is that in apologizing, it’s all about our impact and we focus so much on our intent. My intention was good. I didn’t mean to hurt you.

Alison: Yeah.

Megan: I didn’t wake up that day thinking, well, how am I going to piss off my spouse today? So why should I apologize?

Alison: Right? That’s exactly right. although I think some days I have woken up like that.

Megan: Yeah.

Alison: I have to just tell you, some days I’m like, ohhhhhhhh.

Alison: You know. and like, and then there are other more, you know, 33 years that’s going to happen some days. You know, it’s, it’s a long time.

Megan: It is.

Casey: I appreciate you talking about the practical nature of this book because, um, you know, Alison, I think if if we took a poll, I think a lot of people feel very confused or not totally understanding, like what do relationships look like.. And there’s a lot of really smart, like psychotherapists and therapists out there that speak with such high language that people are like, I don’t know what that looks like. I mean, I’m trying to put my kids to bed and my husband’s not helping me. So if you got something for me there, that’d be rad, right? But instead, it’s like the, you know, the attachment and there’s a lot of therapy speak. What we try to do is, and for me, I’m embodying the 20 year old Casey a 25 year old casey has just got married, hasn’t got a clue and is like, I didn’t get any role model growing up. I have no mentors. I’ve got no tools. I feel like this book, uh, what we really tried to embody was you could pick one of these tools and put it in play within 60seconds inside of your marriage and see a difference. And it’s not like you don’t have to have a degree. There’s no therapy speak. It’s just like, hey, this is what the this is what healthy marriages look like.

Alison: Right

Alison: And Jean and I were talking, it’s not even marriages. It could be any relationship.

Megan: Mhm. Yes.

Megan: Yeah. A lot of these techniques you can actually even use in parenting. I mean, really, right. I, we have two teenagers and, you know, I always ask every adult this. I’ll ask you ladies this. Did your parents apologize to you? Did you ever get an apology? Are you waiting for an apology from a parent? And that’s why we tell parents it’s never too late to apologize to your kids, even if they’re adults. Teenagers, right? We all mess up. We all. We all make mistakes. And I think like. So the apology obviously is one of the habits in the book. But I think even sitting in the KNOWN position, yeah, you know, it’s such a vulnerable, intimate way that we talk because we do life so much side by side. And yes, it doesn’t have to be just for marriages. It can be for dating couples. It can be. It’s cute because our daughter’s dating and has a boyfriend. She’s 18 and she’s like, oh, I want to teach you the known position. Like it’s funny to, it’s funny to watch like in our home that’s normalized. And her boyfriend’s like, what?

Megan:  what? You know?

Alison: Exactly.

Megan: And to clarify for the listener, the known position is not a sex position.  it is not. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Casey: Every time we say we’re going to teach you the known position, everyone gets a little uncomfortable.

Alison: right, right, right,

Casey: Can I, can I go back to the apology for just a second? Because I know you got some questions for us, but I just want to say, um, I wished more people like you said, maybe you don’t need a, I need a billboard with the apology framework on it.

Alison: Right.

Casey: Because, you know, we get a lot of couples that come to us that have been stuck in therapy for years, and the therapist never taught them how to apologize. So the couples trying to repair from the hurt of the past, but talking about it doesn’t help it out. Not even date nights like we. I think there’s a lot of valiant attempts to repair relationship, but it’s not sufficient. Date nights, makeup, sex, trips to Paris, whatever. That’s not the,  that doesn’t fix the problem. That you won’t stand up to your mom when she comes over and tells me how to parent.

Alison: Right.

Casey: What stands up and heals that is the apology. And we have taken the most stubborn couples a fair covery 30 years of not dealing with issues, and we will spend somewhere between 4 to 5 hours of them apologizing back and forth to each other. And it is magic.

Alison: Wow.

Casey: It is magic. There’s something,  like we called it the Dark Passenger. All that resentment at play in relationships and maybe your listeners are listening and they’re like, I have resentment at play. That’s the dark passenger that creates disconnection and stands in the way of like couples having sex, couples talking, couples connecting because of all that resentment. And the only way to deal with it is through apologies. That’s how powerful that framework is.

Alison: That’s right. Jean?

Jean: I mean, I think apologies are so important in relationships, as you both have said, becuase our backgrounds are so different. You know, something that’s so sensitive to me might not have been a big deal to Alex and vice versa. You know, and, um, and I do think that resentment really clamps down communication. And if you cannot communicate, it just starts eating away at the, the intimacy and then, you know, so yeah, I mean, I, there were so many great tips and I wish I had this book a few years ago, uh, many years ago actually, but I’d like to get into some of these great habits that you’re just. Yeah, someone’s listening and driving or whatever, and they’re just like, okay, I would like to know, what are your…Casey what’s your favorite habit? Megan, what’s your favorite habit?

Megan: Okay, I know what mine.

Jean: I know what mine is.

Megan: Yeah.

Casey: What’s your what’s yours?

Megan: Yeah.

Casey: I want to hear.

Jean: I love love lists.

Megan: I that’s my favorite.  That’s my favorite. Okay. Yeah. Right.

Megan: It’s like a whole thing. Yeah.

Jean: If you’re not there. I mean, I did like the apology a lot. I loved known and maybe we can talk about that, but love lists.

Megan: Mhm.

Jean: You know, it’s it’s like you what you said, Megan. It’s like to be specific of.

Megan: Yep.

Jean: What’s going to make Casey really? Oh, she’s being intentional. Like she like there it is. There’s that sign. But tell us, Megan, you speak.

Megan: Yes.

Megan: Okay, so I too, love Love lists. . It’s my favorite. And it really stemmed from the idea of Gary Chapman’s book The Five Love Languages, which anyone listening. You don’t have to read the book to know what Love lists are or your love language, but the idea around love languages is we all give and receive love differently. That’s what makes it a beautiful world. Some of us love words, some of us are acts of service. We just want to go do things for people. Some of us, like me, I like to go shopping and I like to find that perfect gift for my kids and my husband and my friend. And I want to wrap it. I want to watch them open the gift, right? So there’s all these different ways we love each other. And rather than assuming that our spouse should know how we want to be loved, you actually sit down and you write, these are the things that you could do, my spouse, for me that make me feel loved. Leave little sticky notes around the house telling me you love me. Buy me my favorite, you know, drink from Starbucks and surprise me at work.

Megan: And again, specific is terrific. So not love me more. Listen to me more. Be present. Um, put your phone down during date night. Uh, initiate a walk with the dog. Like this is how granular. And we give you dozens and dozens of ideas to hopefully spark memories. And then what happens is if both spouses make their own love lists, you exchange them and you’re like, here’s basically your cheat sheet. So Casey has a long love list of ways he can love me. And I have a love his love list. And so you can do these daily, weekly, monthly, maybe you’re in the doghouse and you’re like, I kind of need to do something to show my spouse I was in a bad mood yesterday. I want to show them that I love them. Or, oh, your spouse just went through a horrible day at work and you’re like, you know what? They just need a little extra love for me, tonight…. I’m going to pick something off of their love list to do. And I just, it takes all of the guessing and assumptions and disappointment out on how to love each other well.

Alison: And, you know, going back to Cassie’s point that we think we have been conditioned to think, well, if you really loved me, you would know that.

Megan: Exactly.

Alison: You know, if you really listened, you’d know that. Or like the scheduling sex thing that’s not going to, you know, that’s going to take the whole, you know, and we’ve been conditioned into this mindset. So why do you think it’s important to make a love list as opposed to assume that Megan like, well, if Casey really loved me, he’d know I want I want a bouquet of flowers. How do you not fall into that? Well, I guess it’s over because I got to write this stuff down.

Megan: Yeah, it’s definitely about a mindset. We talk about that a bit in the beginning of the book. Before we get into the habits where you have to understand the myths, or we would say the story you’re telling yourself about love, marriage and romance. If you’re basing it off of assumptions in Hollywood and if we’re soul mates, we should just know, then you will always feel disappointment and let down always the rest of your life with any relationship you have.

Alison: right

Megan: You’ve been my friend for five years. Don’t you know I want this like this? We’re really putting a lot on someone to assume that we know. Plus, the way we love and the way we want to receive love can change over time.  when the kids were really young, I loved acts of service. Just do things for me, you know?

Megan: And it’s changed. It can it can morph. Not for everybody. So we really want to make sure that in, in relationships, specifically romantic relationships, that we address the myths and the story we’re telling ourselves about it and to, and to know that backed by science and research and all of us on this call that have been married a very long time, assumptions lead to disappointments, and I don’t want anyone to feel disappointed over and over and over again. Wouldn’t you rather be clear with your communication and say, hey, this is actually the best way to love me? And now your spouse has a choice whether they’re going to do it or not. And that’s a whole other topic, but at least you can’t say, well, I didn’t know. It’s like love takes that, that out of there, right?

Alison: Right.

Casey: Well, I, and I think a lot of couples run off of hope as a strategy.

Alison: Yeah.

Casey: I hope we deal with our issues. I hope he remembers. I hope she, you know, is kind, you know, like there’s a lot of hopes out there. Yeah. Um, going back to those myths that, you know, maybe love is all we need.

Alison: Yeah.

Casey: Um, if it’s true love, we shouldn’t have to work at it. Um, my other one is soulmates. Like, there’s this perfect person out there that when we meet, we don’t even have to work at it because we’re so perfect for each other. I’m like.

Alison: I don’t think so.

Casey: I don’t think so.

Megan: I mean, that sounds wonderful by the way.

Alison: Yeah,

Megan: It sounds fantastic.

Alison: Yeah. Right.

Alison: But I mean, I think I think people get married. I think a lot of it’s just timing. I don’t know, I don’t know like that’s at least what I think. I think you’re both in the right place at the right time and you meet and there’s a nice energy and a good vibe. But I think if you two weren’t married, it doesn’t mean that you had to marry Casey, like, you know, or you had to marry Megan. I think I’ve, I think relationships form and it just is like, like even friends you meet and you, you, you ignite and hey, great. I mean, the only one would be like kids, right? You gotta, you know, your kids are like living in the house with you. You know what I mean?

Casey: think about the emotional content of like a rom com and how funny it is and the energy that they have. And then like, you know, and it wraps up in an hour and a half. They lived happily ever after, right? But but they weren’t. They didn’t say like, hey, listen, your mom’s kind of overstepping their bounds,

Alison: Right.

Casey: Hey, listen, can you please be accountable with your spending? They don’t talk about that in the movies. And yet that’s what real relationships are about, right?

Alison: That’s exactly right. You’re right. What’s your favorite? Going back to Jeanne’s question, what’s your favorite habit?

Casey: This one’s an easy A for me. The weekly marriage business meeting.

Alison: Yeah. That’s great.

Casey: Okay. I work with a lot of entrepreneurial people, um, professional athletes that have all of this going back to this intention in this area of their life. And it’s creating a lot of success, right? Athletes are doing, you know, what are their workout recovery, nutrition, sleep patterns. They’ve got KPIs, you know, guys that run businesses, they’ve got, you know, a leadership team. They’re very intentional in this domain of their life and it’s creating success. But then when they walked through the front door of their house, they fling the door open and it’s chaos. It’s just the wild, wild west. And I, I, you know, when they explain to them, like, you would never run your business like your marriage. Right? What are we running off of? Relationships, hopes, whims, whims, insecurities, fantasies, emotions. Like you would never run your career that way. And yet, what I’m asking is, to take that same intentionality and put it and overlay it into your marriage. And the number one tool that we are kind of known for, uh, I’d say that also reduces conflict by over 50% is the weekly marriage business meeting. Because what you’re doing is you’re setting a weekly rhythm where we’re checking in with each other. We’re looking at the week ahead, whether that’s schedules, our connection time, we’re putting all those things in the calendars, our meal plans, our self-care, even sexy time. And we’re, we’re kind of looking at the week ahead and creating with intention that week. Yeah. So then when you walk through the week, you’re already prepared. And here’s the key thing. It’s all about alignment.

Alison: Right

Casey: A lot of couples, they’re scrambling on Tuesday night at 9:30 at night going, what’s happening tomorrow?

Alison: Yeah.

Casey: You know, and then Wednesday night it’s the same thing. And instead of like walking through the week with like, purpose, with being proactive.

Alison: Yeah.

Casey: Everything is the house is on fire, the bikes on fire. And I’m on fire because it’s just chaos and I don’t and there’s no like, and then everything becomes like a big thing because there’s so much stress.

Alison: Yeah.

Casey: That being reactive creates stress in people’s lives. So just implementing that one tool and habit inhabit, create so much peace. And then guess what? When it’s 930 at night, the kids are in bed. You don’t have to talk about tomorrow. You actually get to focus on yourselves and play card games, or take a walk, or have that kind of connection time where we’re building our friendship.

Alison: Yeah, yeah.

Alison: Do you guys still do those?

Megan: We do them religiously.

Alison: Not still. Really?

Megan: Yes.

Alison: Oh yeah. That’s cool.

Megan: And you know why we do it? Well, we also are believers that we should practice what we preach.

Alison: Good

Megan: But I think too, we fight if we don’t. So in full transparency, I hate to cook. I’m a horrible cook, I burn everything.

Alison: Me too.

Megan: Oh, really?

Alison: Oh. don’t be so happy. My family in the other rooms are like, yes, that is true. She’s being honest.

Megan: My daughter brings her friends over, and one of the first things she does when she introduces me is she’s like, oh, this is my mom. She’s not a very good cook. Okay.

Casey: So Megan burns water. Okay.

Megan: I burn water like I forgot I had a pot of boiling water on this. Anyways, okay, so I’m really bad. So one-  actually, what came from like how we created the weekly marriage business meeting. We, we created this for ourselves. Most of our resources, 75% are like, we fight and we’re like, we need to find a solution for this.

Alison: Yeah.

Megan: And if there’s no solution, we create a solution. We’re both fixers. We’re both problem solvers. We’re both very innovative people. So this is why we have so many worksheets and habits because we’re like, if it’s, we can’t be the only couple fighting about who’s cooking. There’s no way we’re the only couple, right? So this is a true story.  Casey, it’s 530 at night. We’ve got a baby. I don’t want to cook. I’m not good at cooking. He’s like, what’s for dinner? And man, did I snap. It was like 0 to 100. I don’t know why is it on me? And it was like, whoa, I was just asking, what’s for dinner? Now we’re trying to figure out who’s cooking what, what ingredients we have in the fridge. And we realized we were fighting about cooking or food almost every day. Just little bickerings, you know?

Alison: Yep, yep.

Megan: I’m like, wait, what if we sat down on a Sunday and decided, well, Megan doesn’t like to cook? What if Casey takes over the cooking, which he does now, and I do the cleaning, which I’m fine with. I like to cook and I’m way better at that, you know? But like, why were we doing it? Like you said, a certain way, we just kind of came in with these expectations, these, these assumptions. And, and so it’s like, well, now we literally don’t fight about dinner anymore. Like we haven’t in over a decade. It’s not an issue. Busy nights. It’s like, maybe we need to go through In and Out or Chick fil A, like all that is discussed though, ahead of time. And so couples are very reactionary in marriage. Most couples are. We were also very reactionary. It was in the moment. You’ve got tiredness, kids in the background, feelings of disappointment from work or whatever, and you’re bringing all that to just a simple conversation of what’s for dinner?

Alison: Yeah.

Megan: And so we’re trying to remove any barrier, any kind of thing that can get in the way. And then the other thing we would tell couples is your calendar is a reflection of what matters to you.

Casey: Mhm.

Megan: So if you have in your calendar working out, which I we both do, we know that working out is very important to Casey and I. It’s self care, right? Keeps us healthy, keeps our it’s for our mindset more than anything. I have wonderful best friends, girlfriends. I have lunches and pickleball with them because I’m prioritizing them. If my husband and my marriage is not in my calendar, then there’s something wrong there.

Alison: Yeah.

Megan: Right. We put everything in our calendar our kids dentist appointments, their school projects, their school plays. Our daughter just graduated high school. That was in the calendar graduation party because those things have value and meaning. And so we would that’s why I think a lot of husbands can wrap their mind around the weekly marriage business meeting because they think, gosh, you’re right, I do this at work. I can transport this and put this in my marriage. And it is very transactional. It’s not feelings based. Um, you know, we always tell couples make it your own. Yeah. You know, make it your own, make it work for you. But we give you a guide and a worksheet in the book that people I mean.

Casey: Jean, I mean, could you imagine if Alex walked in the studio and said, hey guys, let’s just make it a great show. We’re all going to do great. We’ll just, you know.

Megan: We’ll wing it.

Casey: All right. We’ve already done this a couple times, so, uh, yeah. All right. Walk off. Walk off like no.

Jean: So true. They there was a there was a plan. There was an every word, every great word you guys have used prioritize. Everything was thought through because it was important, you know, and, and there it is again, like the marriage, there’s that assumption that, oh, he should just know and she should just know. And we’re, you know, it’s it is really a call to staying present, to being conscious about your thought words, your deeds. And, um, yeah, no, they would never have done that at the studio.

Alison: I love that. Well, write the questions as we go.

Megan: Yeah. Oh yeah. Can you imagine?

Casey: I’m just going to assume you guys got it right.

Alison: Exactly. Exactly right.

Casey: And again, I think a lot of like the CEOs that I’ve worked with, like when I explain that to them, they get it. They, they’re like, but they never connect the dots before. So if we can just kind of like say, hey, when you’re intentional in one area of your life, your career is not more important than your marriage. I mean, that is research. That’s Harvard’s human flourishing project showed that the thing that makes humans happy and grounded is the depth and quality of the relationships we hold, not how much money we have. Not accolades, not how you could be the most successful person, have all this money and be in an empty house and miserable. I heard that story and seen that story lived out time and time again. I worked with an athlete that said, Casey, you know, it’s amazing. I have everything I could ever want. He was currently estranged from his wife, but I don’t have the one thing I need.

Alison: Oh.

Casey: And you could like his. Like the paleness of his face. He was like, I was kind of envious coming into this meeting. And now. Wow, this is not a life I would ever wish on anybody.

Alison: You know, my husband and I work freelance, and I’ll be really upset if I don’t get a job. Oh, I didn’t get that job. And then, you know, when my mom, I took care of my mom as she was passing away, and she never said, I wish I had more work. Like I wish I, I, you know, she worked for the New York Daily News and it was never like, I wish I didn’t I wish I was on assignment like never like it’s always just like about, you know, the people you love and, and your friends and family and your marriage and your kids. It’s just always about that impact.

Casey: You know, I actually just not to be morbid, but I visited my grandmother’s gravesite. It had been like 15 years. It was really actually, I mean, I think in American culture, we’re not like confronted with death too often. So it was a little weird to be like walking on like on top of graves and like, yeah, like kind of freaked out. And they have these little placards that say like, you know, here lies Martha Smith, you know, 1967 to 1993 or whatever. And, um, it didn’t say like, here lies the best accountant in Orange County. Or here is one of the greatest plumbers to ever grace Alisa Viejo or whatever.

Alison: Exactly.

Casey: All it said was a devoted husband, brother and father.

Alison: Yeah. Yeah.

Casey: It was because we’re human beings, not human doings.

Alison: Right

Alison: The connection and community is really the thing. And Jean and I talk about this a lot whenever we do these interviews, you know, the word that comes up the most for all these people and to share the good realm, curiosity.

Megan: Oh yes.

Alison: And you guys talk about that. Can you tell us why it’s important to be curious in a relationship?

Megan: Oh, I love that. Yeah. Curiosity to me communicates. I care about you. I care about your thoughts, your fears, your highs, your lows, your dreams, your goals. I genuinely want to know those things,

Alison: Right.

Megan: And I believe we live in a culture where it’s a lot about me, me, me, me, me. But to actually sit in a place and say, I want to get curious about you. Yeah, it’s very fulfilling.

Alison: Yeah.

Megan: For both people, really. And we, our first book that we self-published was 365 Connecting Questions for couples.

Alison: I love that I have that.

Megan: Yeah,  We sent you one.

Alison: Yes, yes, I love it. Thank you.

Megan: You’re welcome. Because and we self-publish because Casey asked me the same three questions. What’s for dinner? Hey, that story again. What’s for dinner? Um, how are the kids? How was your day? Right. Are we having sex, like, almost every day? And I was like, I just wish that you’d ask me, like, different questions. And he’s like, can you write some down for me? I’m like, you know what? I actually say fixer problem solver. I’m like, yes, I will. In fact, I will write a book about questions. But that’s where that idea came from. Anyways, all that to say, if you think about back in the dating years, we all sat there across the table or on the couch and we asked each other.

Alison: Right.

Megan: open Ended questions. Tell me about your childhood. Tell me about your grandmother. What do you want to be when you grow up? What’s your biggest fear? And so that’s actually what connects us to friendships and our romantic partners. And then we just kind of get comfortable, or we assume we know everything about that person, but we’re always evolving. We’re always changing.

Alison: Yeah.

Megan: And, and it’s not that that curiosity isn’t there. It’s just we haven’t like turned it back on. It kind of laid dormant. And so yes, curiosity is huge in marriage. And the Gottman Institute has done some of the most extensive research in relationships, right. 40 plus years. And the number one way to build emotional intimacy in any relationship is by asking open ended questions.

Megan: Yeah, there’s science that backs that up. Yeah.

Alison: And it’s sort of what the world needs right now with so many people in disparate fields and ideas. And like, you know, if I think if we lean into curiosity as opposed to like, oh, you’re on the other side.  I think that, oh, look, you got fireworks happening, Casey.

Casey: Yes.

Casey: I was giving you two thumbs up.

Alison: I love that.

Casey: that’s so True.

Alison: Yeah.

Casey: Because curiosity is a listening posture.

Alison: Mhm. Right.

Casey: When you think about it, when some when your spouse is attacking you, you know, you’re kind of like this. You know what’s wrong? What’s wrong with you? It’s kind of the question like, why are you attacking me? Um, but curiosity is kind of like gets gets into our partner’s world and it’s like, what’s the, what’s the burden or stressor that you’re carrying that I don’t see right now?

Alison: Yeah.

Casey: And the, the polarizing political divides and all the social issues, there’s no one really creating like, okay, can we just get curious? I’d love to hear your posture. Everyone’s talking. No one’s listening.

Alison: Yeah.

Casey: And sometimes we do that in marriage. And I want to tell you, this is actually what’s the secret message that you’re sending when you stop being curious with your spouse is I’m bored with you.

Alison: Yeah, you don’t matter.

Megan: You don’t matter.

Alison: I don’t care.

Casey: I’m not Interested anymore. And what, what really lies at curiosity that there’s a secret sauce to marriage is desire.

Alison: Mhm.

Casey: Because we all long to be desired. And when someone’s pursuing us, wanting to know who we are and get to know who we like. Tell me more about your hopes and dreams. What are you afraid of? Again, like Megan said, all the questions we did when we’re dating. But somehow we just turn off when we’re married.

Alison: Yeah. Yeah. Very much.

Jean: Have you noticed, that’s so that’s so great that you talk about that…Have you noticed a change in marriages, people that you’re you’ve been counseling, like the the problems that come up from, you know, when you first started this beautiful career that, you know, this offering that’s so wonderful.

Megan: Mhm. Yeah. I would say actually a huge shift we’ve seen over the last couple of years has been with AI.

Alison: Um.

Megan: And ours is more of a concern.

Casey: Allison.

Megan: Not, not a good, not a good thing.

Megan: Um.

Casey: People are using AI to go. They’re replacing their coach, their therapist, their advice with AI. And, you know, we always say AI is only hearing your side of the story. And in a marriage or a romantic relationship, there are two sides to every story, right? And they don’t know the history. They don’t know the patterns, they don’t know their spouse’s perspective. And we’re seeing this massive shift where people are going to AI, and AI is just giving them what they want to hear.

Alison: Yeah.

Megan: And I know you can train AI to say, I actually want you to challenge me, which if anyone’s listening, I would say tell your AI bot to challenge you to say, I don’t want to always be right, you know? Um, but I think that this is going, we’re already seeing some serious repercussions of this and I think it’s going to get worse before it gets better.

Alison: So what do you what does that mean? Like you’re seeing some repercussions of it because I know I have friends who will be like, they’ll have a problem and I’ll be like, oh my God, I felt that way. You should have called me. Oh, no. I talked to the AI thing and I’m just like, oh my God, no. Like, it just freaks me out.

Megan: So yes, we would say, um, if you’re struggling in your marriage, you should go to a trusted resource, not AI. So you should go to a best friend, a mentor, a therapist, a marriage and life coach. Casey and Megan, like, there are so many people out there that love you and want the best for you. You don’t want only yes people in your life.

Alison: Yeah.

Megan: Not when it comes to romantic relationships, because again, there’s two perspectives. So what people are doing is they’re saying, well, I got in a fight with my husband. This is what he did. They don’t talk about what she did.

Megan: This is what he did.

Megan: What should I do? And then what they’re basically doing is they’re validating. You’re so right. You should feel wronged. You should feel upset. You know what? He was wrong in X, Y, z. And what’s happening is if you do that enough, it’s going to make you start telling yourself a story that my husband’s in the wrong or my spouse is in the wrong, I’m in the right. And now you’re bringing that energy into every argument and every conversation with your spouse, because an AI bot who does not really know you or your spouse told you something to do. And so we’ve seen people get divorces.

Alison: Wow.

Megan: We’ve seen people have affairs. We’ve seen people saying, well, you’re justified in the way you’re feeling. And so it’s okay that you give the silent treatment. I’m like, the silent treatment is never a good thing. Who’s telling you this? Oh, Gemini. Oh, I like no, like that’s that’s not healthy. So I know that they’re working really hard at trying to put more things and protocols in AI. Like, even like, you know, there was that big story where a kid said, I want to kill myself. And they said, you should. Right?

Alison: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Megan: And like, but we’re really far behind. Ai is going too fast. We can’t keep up with all this. By the time they make laws and rules, AI is going to be light years ahead. So I would say this is a massive shift we’re seeing in, in with our couples and our clients.

Alison: Wow.

Casey: And I’ll just follow on with that to say, going back to the Harvard study, human flourishing was it’s not our relationship with AI that keeps us grounded and happy and whole. It’s the depth and quality of relationships. Now here’s where AI is actually kind of, uh, short circuiting a lot of our young people’s, uh, relationship tolerance because you can interact with an AI bot that validates you. Maybe that makes you feel good. There’s a little dopa hit there at that moment, but you can just as easily walk away from that relationship with zero consequences.

Alison: Yeah.

Casey: And it’s, it’s at your beck and call. So it’s at your convenience and at your comfort. Yeah. Problem is relationships, human relationships are oftentimes inconvenient and very uncomfortable when we have to talk about hard conversations. And so this, this younger generation has a lower tolerance of like, if we have to have a hard conversation, they’re like, well, I’m out. I don’t want to deal with this. And so they’re not, they’re not talking about it because they’ve trained themselves on having a relationship with AI. And that to me is deeply concerning.

Alison: Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree.

Megan: Yeah. The other thing I would say, we’ve seen a change in relationships is just with busyness and stress and exhaustion. It feels like it’s gotten way worse.

Alison: Mhm.

Megan: We felt like with Covid, it actually got a little bit better. People were home more. There was like, actually, we’re okay. Like we’re having more time. Like couple time and family time. So there was some good benefits that we were hoping would stick with people.

Alison: Yeah.

Megan: Um, unfortunately, they didn’t stick for a lot of people.

Alison: Yeah.

Megan: And it’s almost like when, you know, the pandemic was done, it’s like, well, let’s just go back. And if anything, I feel like people are more busy and I don’t know if they’re busying themselves. I think there’s a a wide range, but we hear often that people are overworked, stressed, and very busy and tired. And the reality is, is relationships require both quality and quantity time.

Alison: Yeah.

Megan: And you’re going to have to have energy. And so a lot of times we were coaching people, helping them almost like life skills. What can you say no to so you can say yes to your spouse? What can you say no to? So you’re not giving your kids your leftovers every day because you can’t give people leftovers day after day, year after year. They’re going to get over that.

Alison: Yeah.

Megan: And then you’re living with that regret and that guilt, right? Like I gave him my leftovers, you know.

Megan: No one wants to do that. And so you, I get it. There’s seasons and we try to tell people there’s a difference between being in a season of burnout. But this can’t be a lifestyle.

Alison: Right

Megan: Yeah.

Alison: That’s right. Do you guys ever still struggle with any of the habits?

Megan: Yes, because we’re imperfect.

Alison: That’s good though.

Alison: That’s good.

Alison: But see, I like that you say that because there are some people, Jean and I talk about this too, that there are some people out there that are like, you know, well, I’m up, I’m up here and you’re down there and good luck to you, little….

Casey: Oh, let me just tell you. Last week, I, uh, said something out of turn, and I had to come and apologize to Megan about it because, it was impulsive and that doesn’t that’s not going to go away. I have a raging case of ADHD, so I give Megan a lot of practice in patience.

Megan: Yeah. Yeah.

Casey: Um, but yeah, I mean, we, I would consider us more marriage practitioners.

Alison: Mhm.

Casey: Because the truth is, marriage is a summit less peak.

Alison: Right

Casey: There’s always something to discover and learn. So the moment that people sit back and just kind of coast. It’s communicating something that I’m assuming they probably actually don’t want to say it or communicate to their spouse, but they’re saying it with their actions.

Alison: Right.

Casey: Um, one of the things that when we were talking about intentionality in this conversation, uh, I did a deep dive on the word and it’s Latin for intindeary.

Megan: Mhm.

Casey: Which it’s two words put together and it is stretch forward. So I don’t know if you’ve ever been stretched, but it’s very uncomfortable.

Alison: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Casey: But this idea of intention is that we’re stretching forward towards, you know, we’re being proactive. We’re getting ourselves a little uncomfortable. Yeah. It’s probably not the most convenient thing, but I’m, I’m stretching forward in my life. I’m being intentional with and, and that that’s really this beautiful word picture of what it looks like to be intention. Now, the opposite of that would be to cross your arms, lean back in your chair. And this, this is me. Hey, whatever happened in life? It is what it is. Hey, my partner’s not joining me. Uh, I you know, I’m stuck. I’m disempowered. This is, you know, I’m just a victim of circumstances. Um, you know that.

Alison: Yeah.

Casey: That is the opposite of what’s required to create change in your life. Really?

Alison: Yep. Yep.

Casey: Alright, we got lean forward in the saddle with with intentionality.

Megan: Mhm.

Alison: That’s a great image.

Megan: Yeah.

Jean: And that’s, you know, we’re all here to grow and change and expand and experience. You know, so I do. I never heard of that. Thank you Casey. I like, I like that. What is it called? Uh, the, when the you look up the root word of something.

Alison: Yeah.

Jean: Etymology.

Casey: Etymology. Yeah.

Megan: Yeah. Yeah. Great.

Alison: And can I ask you just one more quick question before we end, because I could talk to you guys like for the next ten hours, but that would be inappropriate. Um, sorry about that. Is there like you talk a lot about forgiveness and right now we’re living in a world I think that could use more forgiveness. Um, but where could you talk a little bit about forgiveness and then also address a little bit the line between forgiveness and enabling?

Megan: Yeah.

Megan: Um, I will start with saying I will be transparent that that is the one I still struggle with the most in my own life. So I feel like I’m, I’m qualified to say this because forgiveness and boundaries are the two most misunderstood and confusing topics within marriage.

Alison: Yeah.

Megan: People really don’t understand. And I, we like to call ourselves we’re relationship educators. So while yes, we’re marriage and life coaches, a lot of what we do in our practice with our clients is we educate them. Again, if they didn’t have a model, they didn’t have an example, how would they know that’s okay? They don’t know. We didn’t know either. But anyone can learn. So Forgiveness actually starts in the head. It’s a choice. I’ve got a sign behind me that says choose.

Alison: I love that.

Megan: It could say choose. Excuse me. Could say choose forgiveness. And I believe that a lot of us feel that we should wake up, and we’re going to feel like we want to forgive our spouse or our partner for hurting us. And I’m here to say you’re probably never going to feel it. And so if you’re waiting for those feelings to come, you could be waiting days, weeks, months, years. So it starts, it really does start with our thoughts and, and this is so important. And this is the switch of, you know, you hear people say, forgive and forget. Well, our brains are not wired to forget really big hurts. Um, I mean, I think with time and forgiveness they can maybe you won’t, right. But I don’t forget, I have never forgotten all of the big, nasty fights that Casey and I got in those first few years of marriage. I mean, those those left scars. Now I’ve forgiven them so we can talk about it and not get triggered. We can actually even laugh and go, how stupid were we? Right?

Alison: Right.

Megan: So forgiveness does not mean forgetting. Forgiveness is a very individual act. It is basically a choice, saying, I am going to let my spouse off the hook for the pain that they caused me. I do know I no longer want this pain to dictate my life. I don’t want it to trigger me. I don’t want it to hold me down. I don’t want it to make me feel depressed and bitter. It’s so it’s completely nothing to do with the other person. Which is why it’s so unfair. Yeah, but it’s a choice that you can make. I’ve walked women and men through forgiving moms, dads, sexual abusers that have already passed away. The person doesn’t have to apologize. Should they apologize? Yes, but you may never get the apology you’re looking for. So you can actually wake up one day and say, this pain’s costing me a lot. It’s not serving me in life, and I don’t want this pain to dictate my life anymore. So it’s a choice. Okay, so that’s really important. It’s not a feeling, it’s a choice.

Alison: Right.

Megan: And, and there’s different practices that, you know, you can walk through a therapist can walk you through a coach can walk you through that will really help kind of solidify that. But going back to your question on forgiving versus enabling, we want to put forgiveness and rebuilding trust in the same category, and they’re not.

Megan: So you can forgive your spouse, but I forgave Casey for yelling at me. But that doesn’t mean that he’s just allowed to continue to yell at me over and over and over and over again. That’s a boundary issue. That’s a rebuilding trust issue. That’s a very different thing. So for example, yeah, we were both yellers. I hated that I was yeller decided I don’t want to yell anymore so I could tell Casey, well, you can’t yell at me anymore, but can Casey yell at me? Yeah, the answer is yes, because I don’t control what comes out of his mouth.

Alison: Right.

Megan: So I forgave him for yelling at me. I was going to say he’s yelled at me. I saw him through the eyes of compassion, hurt people, hurt people. He’s not a bad person. He’s a hurting person. But that doesn’t excuse the behavior. That doesn’t justify the behavior. So I forgave the pain that was caused. But moving forward, what I did was the example he gave earlier was, I decided, my own boundary of, I’m not going to allow him to yell at me anymore. So if I can’t control what he does, I can control what I do. I’m going to get up and I’m going to disengage. I’m not going to engage with a yeller. And literally to this day, I do not engage. If anyone not just yells at me now, he doesn’t yell at me.

Alison: Right.

Megan: But that was a boundary I created. I don’t have to tolerate this anymore.

Alison: Right.

Megan: So as married people, we like to clump them together and I say no two different things. Forgiveness is one thing, letting go of the pain… Boundaries of we teach people how to treat us is a completely separate, separate, different topic. Yeah. Because we don’t want to, we don’t want to just keep forgiving and forgiving and going, well, you can keep yelling, yelling at me, or you can keep giving me the silent treatment. Or you can keep fill in the blank. That would be enabling. And we don’t want to enable bad behavior. So the opposite of enabling is basically boundaries, personal boundaries for yourself to say, this is not something I want to tolerate. You can keep doing what you’re going to do because you’re human and you’re going to do what you do.

Alison: And what did you do? Just did you just get up and leave the room?

Megan: But in a healthy way, the example he gave earlier, hey, I want to talk to you about this, but you’re yelling at me and I’m not going to tolerate yelling. When you’re calm, let me know. Happy to talk to you. And it just I had to do that for four months, ladies, four months until he finally was like, oh, Megan’s not going to let me yell at her. So he could have kept yelling at me. But the consequence of the boundary was I’m no longer going to tolerate the yelling and the I’m going to disengage. Yeah.

Alison: That’s great.

Megan: Yeah.

Alison: I think boundaries are like a thing I struggle with because I feel guilty sometimes.

Megan: Yeah.

Alison: Do you know? So that’s a really great thing. You know, I feel yeah. So that’s a great that’s a great we talked Jean and I talk about that a lot about what is the boundary. When can we say no. Do do we have to be good girls and make sure everyone’s happy and pleased all the time, you know.

Megan: Yeah. You know so one of the things, one of my areas of expertise is boundaries, so if you ever want to talk offline about it…Happy to help you.

Megan: Um, I will, I will say

Alison:  don’t joke about that because I’m you’re on speed dial now.

Megan:  i love it.  You, reach out to me anytime because I, I lived in a, I lived in a home where there were no boundaries.

Alison: Mhm.

Megan: And when I got help for myself, I. And I learned what they were. And I started implementing them. There is so much joy and freedom on the other side. I want every man and woman listening to experience that, because people see me as a very confident person, and I have my insecurities like we all do. But a lot of my confidence, Casey will tell you, is because I have very good, healthy boundaries in my life, in every area with my kids, my self-care, my marriage, my budget. Boundaries are actually in every area that we have, whether we have them or not. And one of the things I will tell every listener is you almost have to make a boundary and expect that the person’s not going to like it.

Megan: So if you’re a people pleaser, it’s going to be really, really hard to make a boundary. And that’s why boundaries are actually based off of our values. If we know our worth, we know that we shouldn’t be yelled at. We shouldn’t be given this. Hey, wait, I deserve love and respect. They’re actually created from your values.

Alison:  right.

Megan: Yeah, I know, I told you I could, I could do like 17 hours on boundaries and I would love it.

Jean: Your next book

Megan: I know our next book, right? Yes. Maybe. Yes.

Alison: This is so great. You guys really are like like little sparks, like this Sparky thing that I just really enjoyed. Meeting you is just the highlight because your book was so engaging.

Jean: We both really, really loved it.

Alison: I hope everybody buys it everywhere and not even people married. I think it’s really important for relationships, you know, just the relationship habit. Do you know, I think it’s great, but we have two end questions, Jeannie.

Jean: Okay. So the first one is what does the word inside wink mean to you?

Casey: Okay, I’ll go first because what I heard inside wink, I was like, what is an inside wink? I thought it was kind of that way of this is a way to initiate sex is you have an inside, like, of course, it’s kind of like um. Hey, do you want to clean up later? It’s it’s kind of that like inside language of initiation for sex. That’s where I took it, ladies. I mean, that was what I thought.

Megan: Casey, you’re such a man.

Alison: We’ve talked to so many people. And I have to say that’s the first unique answer. And I have to give you kudos for that.

Alison: Because you’re you’re you’re your own guy.

Casey: Yeah. Hey.

Alison: I love that.

Megan: Yeah.

Megan: That’s funny.

Casey: You want to go to bed now or later?

Megan: That’s so funny. Oh my gosh. I love that.

Alison: Megan, What does it mean to you? It’s going to be it’s not going to be about sex is it?

Meygan: My answer is not going to be nearly as exciting as his. Um, I actually think of the word intimacy because I think that if Casey and I have like a look we give each other when we’re in an uncomfortable situation or when our kids are being funny, but we don’t want to know. We don’t want to tell them they’re being funny. We kind of have this little wink. We give this little look. And I think that requires intimacy and trust between two people.

Alison: I love that. And and finally, um, pie. Cake or ice cream?

Meygan: Oh. Ice cream.

Casey: Ice cream all the way.

Megan: Ice cream.

Alison: That’s why you guys got married. There you go.

Meygan: Love. Ice cream.

Casey: Chocolate ice cream. I mean, you just can’t. You can’t even mess it up.

Megan: Yeah.

Megan: Peanut butter. Peanut butter. Chocolate’s my favorite.

Megan: Number two.

Meygan: Oh, he loves Rocky Road. And he likes the rocky road with walnuts, which they don’t. It’s hard to find the one with the walnuts.

Alison: I’ve never heard of that.

Meygan: Yeah. They do. They do. Almonds now.

Jean: And almonds are harder. I like this. Walnuts are a little softer. And, uh. Yeah, I love walnuts, too.

Casey: Especially if they’re frozen. Almonds are trash.

Alison: We’re going to get letters about that now.I’m totally teasing.

Meygan: No, we love almonds. Just not just not not ice cream.

Jean: not Frozen ones. Right?

Meygan: That’s right.

Megan: Yes.

Alison: Thank you guys so much. You are just amazing. I just I just wish we were like neighbors. And I could just come over now.

Jean: And talk about turning lemons into lemonade and sharing that with everyone. And again, uh, you have a great app. You have a website. We will, your books will put everything where our viewers can, our listeners can, uh, reach out to you and thank you so much.

Alison: Yes. Thank you, thank you really all this time and congratulations on everything.

Megan: Thank you.

Casey: Thank you so much. I just want to inject our mission really is that we would see, um, couples and really people becoming the healthiest, healthiest versions of themselves. Mhm. They can experience the joy of connection. Because I would like to say our big message to the world is happily ever after is not a fantasy. It’s something you can do if you are intentional.

Alison: Right… That’s great. And that can be for everybody and everything

Meygan: Yeah.

Alison: Thank you so, so much, you guys.

Alison: After after talking with them, I said to Jean, let’s drive down to San Diego and meet them because I thought they were so nice and funny and like little bright lights. I thought they were adorable and I enjoyed that interview so much.

Jean: I did too, and I think that they both have really just grown into their best selves. And I think that’s what marriages are all about.

Alison: All about relationships.

Jean: Yeah. Growing into your best self. And they were fun.

Alison: And the fact that and once you read their book, because it’s all about really good techniques, but talking to them and getting to know them a little bit. I think now I’d like to go back and read the book again. Do you know what I mean? Because their personalities really shown in the interview, you know? Yeah. And now that I know them a little bit, you know, I felt like they were just so, um, like their. Go ahead.

Jean: Yeah. They’re just so vibrant and.

Alison: Yeah.

Jean: Joyful.

Alison: Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I’m using some of their tips and I, I really like their tips because if you feel like it’s not just like, listen more. Mhm. Say nicer things.

Jean: No. And they talk about that being specific in, in, in their love lists. Like what specifically, you know, makes you feel loved.  what specifically makes you feel loved? Alison.

Alison: Um, I like taking, I like time with people. Like and I like, um, when someone sees me, truly sees me and can help me make my way through a challenge without making me feel less than that really shows love to me. Like if I’m feeling a challenged or worried or upset, someone’s like, oh, get over it. It’s going to be someone who makes me feel like, well, what’s going on with that? Or let’s talk about it or like, they’re really with me, right? What about what about you?

Jean: I would say the same thing. Yeah, yeah.

Alison: You know, I just love that.

Jean: Because it’s, it’s such, um, that presence and that unconditional love to help you navigate something that’s bothering you is really beautiful.

Alison: And I think too, that I like when if there is a problem in a relationship that you talk about it and you forgive it, you forgive each other, which is really like, you know, they, they had a rocky go of it for a while as a lot of marriages do. And I love that they were like, you know, we have to move into forgiveness, not forgetting, but forgiveness and saying, okay, I love you. Let’s continue.

Jean: Right.

Alison: Which is great. So I hope, we hope you read the book. We hope you enjoyed the interview and.

Jean: And we hope you are well and having just a wonderful time. Yeah. Wherever you are.

Alison: Yeah.

Jean: And this book, no matter. Married. Not married. This is a beautiful book.

Alison: Beautifully said, my friend. Bye.