Podcast Episode 96: Scarlett Lewis

Alison: Hi, Jean.

Jean: I cannot wait to meet or know to revisit Scarlett Lewis.

Alison: I know, I’m so excited. We’re not even going to talk about us, are we? Because we are.

Jean: That’s why I didn’t even say hi, alison. I was hoping you caught that.

Alison: It’s like, get to the good stuff.

Alison: Scarlett Lewis. We’ve we talked to her. I think she might have been our first interview when we had the website years ago, like 5 or 6 years ago was a long time ago. It was during Covid. And, um, Scarlett Lewis, her son, was murdered at Sandy Hook, her six year old son, Jesse Lewis, and she founded the Choose Love movement. And she’s amazing.

Jean: And the Choose Love movement teaches children that even when they can’t control what happens to them outside, they can learn to choose how to respond.

Alison: Exactly. And she she wrote a book called Nurturing, Healing Love. And that’s what we interviewed her about the first time. But my gosh, her whole movement has really taken off. So let’s just do it because you guys are not going to believe her.

Jean: Yeah, she’s on fire for the power of love.

Alison: That’s right. Here’s Scarlett.

Alison: So good to see you. It’s so good to see you.

Jean: Yeah, it really is.

Alison: It’s been a while.

Scarlett: Yes it has. How many years?

Alison: It was during Covid, so I would say 5 or 6.

Jean: I love your hair like that, by the way.

Scarlett: Thank you. Oh my gosh. This is just how I wear it all the time. Just thrown back.

Jean: Yeah. It’s really pretty.

Scarlett: Thank you. I appreciate that. I, I like the zoom where you get to put the little, uh, thing all the way up for the filter.

Jean: Oh, yeah.

Scarlett: I love that. That’s really nice.

Alison: We don’t use a filter.

Scarlett: Oh, okay.

Alison: We’re just rough and ready.

Scarlett: Yeah. Rough and ready. Yeah. That’s that’s how I do. But you know what? I think people really appreciate that. I think with all of the filters and AI and all this, you know, my mom sends me social media all the time and I’m like, mom, it’s fake. It’s not even real, you know? And, and it’s like, uh, I think we’re going to get into an era of really wanting real stuff, really wanting raw, you know, just like, oh, just real, real conversation between human beings about hard stuff. I think that’s what we’re going to want.

Alison: That’s right. I think I think right now we’re in a place, though, that that is crucial to start having.

Scarlett: Exactly. I think it’s crucial. I think it’s crucial. And I think people are going to start wondering what’s real.

Jean: Yeah.

Scarlett: What is real? Well, and what is real is, is this.

Alison: Yes.

Scarlett: Is connection and belonging and seeing and being seen. Oh my gosh. I have so much to share with all the conversations that I have had and the, the, uh, the work I’ve been doing in prisons and talking to school shooters and all of this stuff, I’m not sure I shared that. And I don’t know what you want me to share, but I think, um, I think if, if people out there can hear that, it’s just like the problem may be complicated, but the solution isn’t and we can all be a part of it, you know what I mean?

Alison: Yes, completely.

Jean: That’s so great. And that feels so empowering because it’s not something that we don’t innately already have within us.

Scarlett: It’s so true. And, uh, and I think we all need to start talking about it. You know, I have, uh, I have kids that are contacting me and they’re worried about their own safety and, uh, and, and as young as third grade and they’re doing projects in school about it and they’re asking me, you know, like, what are your thoughts? And I say, well, that’s why I started the choose love movement. And you’re really lucky because you’re in a choose love school and let me show you the pathway to violence. Let me show you how hurt people hurt people, and what they need is love and to be seen and connection. And you guys can start doing that today. Make sure that that the person that’s in your class that you, that looks and acts like they’re being left out, make sure that you go up and say hi to them and include them. And I don’t know, it’s just, you know, it’s very empowering when you don’t feel so out of control and you feel like there is something that you can do. And even with parents, because there is, there is. And then on the other side, it’s like, you know, we are, we are responsible for the world that we’re leaving our kids and that’s our legacy, right? And we need to get serious about being part of the solution. You know, all of us like, okay, stop waiting. Nope. Nobody else is coming. There’s nobody else that’s going to come to do it. It’s going to be us, you and me. And that’s also that’s also positive because, you know, there’s something we can do.

Alison: That’s exactly right. Can you can you just tell our listeners a little bit about the Choose Love movement and how it has grown? Because it’s, it’s grown so much since the first time we talked?

Scarlett: Absolutely. Yes. So I’ll just start at the beginning, if you don’t mind. Just with the story. Um, maybe not everybody is familiar with the Choose Love movement or me, Scarlett Lewis. So we’re just dove right in. Why not? Right. So I started the Choose Love movement 13.5 years ago now, following my six year old son’s murder in his first grade classroom at Sandy Hook Elementary School. Uh, and so he was killed alongside 19 of his first grade classmates and six educators. And that was, uh, you know, it’s interesting as I travel around the world now speaking and offering a solution, um, something that really, um, people remember and they remember where they were and what they were doing when they heard that, you know, kind of like one of those events that really brought us together. And uh, after that, I realized that that was 100% preventable. Um, and I, and I think it’s really important that people hear that because I, I feel like there’s some, some sense of, um, uh, like there’s, there’s nothing that you can do and, uh, powerlessness, hopelessness about this problem. And I’m here to say that there is something that you can do. And, uh, and you know what I, what I did was, uh, in fact, I’m thinking back to my first interview and my mom was standing next to me and I said, you know, I take my part of the responsibility for what happened to my son in his school, in my community.

Scarlett: And, and because I do that, I can be part of the solution. And, uh, and I did, I, I quit my job and I dedicated my life to keeping our kids safe and well. And I got off the phone and my mom’s like, oh my God, never say that again. It wasn’t your fault. And I said, I’m not saying it was my fault. I’m saying this is the world that I live in, and I’m not a victim, and I’m taking my part of the responsibility for what goes on around me. This is my world, and there is something that I can do. And so I just went on to craft a universal curriculum that benefits schools, actually students, educators, and parents with the same skills and tools because they’re universal and lifelong for all ages and stages in how to thoughtfully respond, make a heroic choice is what we call it, of love over fear. Because everything you want is on the other side of fear. And, uh, and A and a thoughtful response in love looks very different than a reaction that was made out of fear. And so, you know, wanting to cultivate and give people the skills and tools they need to become the best version of themselves.

Alison: Why was why was Sandy hook preventable?

Scarlett: So I guess everything’s preventable in hindsight, right? Um, but we have the benefit of actually looking at what’s happened in these different scenarios and learning from them. And so if you look at Sandy Hook, um, this was, you know, as I said, when I stood up at Jesse’s funeral, um, this whole tragedy started with an angry thought in a young boy’s head. And I pictured Adam Lanza, who was a former student of Sandy Hook, a young boy having an angry thought, hurt, lonely, neglected, rejected, uh, and having that angry thought and not knowing what to do with that feeling. And then that, along with, uh, bullying along with possibly abuse, just sort of, uh, escalated and, and led to the tragedy. I mean, it’s not that hard to see how it happened. And so, um, you know, if you are thinking proactively and preventatively, you would go back to that little boy and you would teach him how to handle hard things in his life. You’d start giving him skills every year, scaffolding along along with his classmates, along with his teachers, so that the culture would have been different and his level of resilience and understanding would have been different.

Scarlett: And it it would have made a big difference. It would have, you know, gone…. It would have taken the degree of the output or off putting of pain down to, you know, maybe nonexistent. Because here’s the thing, and here’s, here’s what I’ve learned. I’ve done so much research as human beings, we are actually created to learn, grow, and be strengthened by hard times. Pain has a purpose. It’s there to help us grow. Think about how you grew the most. Was it through, you know, happiness and you know when everything was going your way? Or was it when you hit a brick wall? Was it in, you know, the, the really dark times in your life where you really had to hunker down and, and find that courage within you, uh, and stamina to keep going. Uh, that that is what makes resilience. So pain has a purpose. But here’s the thing, like our brain’s number one job is to keep us safe. So naturally, we’re going to have pain in our lives and kind of like touching a stove.

Alison: Right

Scarlett: I won’t do that again. I don’t want to be in pain. I asked my audiences, who wants to be in pain? Anyone? Anyone. So naturally, we’re going to resist and avoid it, or maybe even numb ourselves because nobody wants to be in pain. So how about if we created and cultivated and gave essential life skills to kids and big kids? I consider myself a big kid to where we could pause during maybe a painful interaction or circumstance and get curious about what the lessons are in here, how we are going to use this, what meaning we assign to that, to what somebody just said that triggered us. Are we going to take that what we perceived to be a personal slight which might not even have been? And are we going to hold on to it like a little grievance collector, and are we going to take it with us and then take it out again and look at it and perseverate over it and talk about it for the rest of our lives? And sometimes we do that. And so what I wanted to do was create a program that taught kids and big kids how to manage those triggers, how to manage the hurt and the grievance and be able to what I say, harvest the gifts that come out of those situations so that you can be refined by the fire instead of defined by it.

Alison: Mhm.

Alison: Wow. That’s that’s amazing. Really.

Alison: And I never thought of it being just it started just with an angry thought.

Scarlett: Everything starts with a thought.

Alison: It just because in my mind, I go to like this horrific… The end result. But you’re so right. It’s just some kid with a with an angry seed of a thought.

Scarlett: That’s right. Who feels disconnected –  right. Unseen. Unheard. Because I will tell you, in my research, I have spoken to high profile school shooters, or their parents, if they’re not alive any longer. And I want to ask them the question that I’m not certain that anybody is asking, and I’ve never heard of anybody doing it. How did we fail you? And and that’s an interesting question, because these are kids.

Alison: Yeah.

Scarlett: These are kids that are that are killers that want to kill themselves and each other. Like, how is this happening? Like what? What needs did you not get that we could have given you? Uh, what could we have done to have kept you from going back to your school and wanting to kill other kids and your classmates? And, and I can boil down all of those conversations into one word,umm two words. Mhm. They, they maybe several words. They didn’t feel seen.

Jean: Wow.

Alison: Wow.

Scarlett: They didn’t feel seen. They didn’t feel like they mattered. They didn’t feel like anybody cared about them. So we know that hurt people, hurt people. And so when I go around and I talk, which I do all the time, I just gave a, you know, I’m kicking off school years now with the choose love movement with a, with a kickoff talk that I give, I go, this is great news. This is great news actually, because something that we can do about it, we can make people feel seen. And on one hand it’s like very easy, right? The easy part is like, uh, when I pass you, I’m going to look instead of doing this so that I don’t have to look at you, I’m going to, I’m actually going to look at you. I’m going to look into your eyes if I can. I’m going to smile at you. I’m going to say hello. I’m going to I’m going to pay attention. I’m going to ask open ended questions. I’m going to ask you how you are as a teacher, I’m going to ask you how you are. And when you go, fine. I’m going to say, come on, how are you really? I’m going to learn stuff about you. I’m going to make sure that you have a trusted adult that you can talk to. I’m going to make sure I’m going to look. I’m going to make sure that you’re sitting with somebody at lunch. I’m going to follow through and follow up. I’m going to ask you how you are, even when I know you’re going through a bad time.

Alison: Mhm,

Scarlett: And I’m going to ask it twice. Like there are easy things to do. Those are the easy things. And then like the, the, the, the, the, the solution is so simple. But I always say simple isn’t always easy. So you know, the not so easy stuff. And then this is, this is what this is what happens. And, you know, sort of like what can start to cultivate somebody who might want to harm or harm others is like, you know, when you have a kid who is dark, who is off putting, who is angry, who is bullying you, who, who rebuffs all of your advances, you know, as far as you know, saying, are you doing okay? Would you, you know, like, can I do something for you? Uh, how are you? Rebuffs everything because he doesn’t feel worthy of love. Maybe because he’s never had it and he doesn’t recognize it. You know what I mean? Um, maybe because he’s angry at the world and it’s justified. Maybe because he was bullied, and now all he knows is to bully to off, put that pain and find relief. Mhm. You don’t you don’t know, but that’s a hard person to love. That’s a hard person to keep going and to not give up on. Those are the people that need love the most. I mean, I mean, this is not my quote, but everything is either an act of love or a cry for love. And if we could start looking at it that way, how would we treat people differently? You know what’s interesting? I go in, it’s it’s so fascinating to me. And granted, these are choose love schools, but I’ll go into a kindergarten class and I’ll go, what do you think someone’s feeling when they’re mean to you? And they’ll go.

Jean: Oh.

Scarlett: Man. Right. And then I go, oh, well, why do you think they’re mad? Because they’re sad.

Jean: Yeah.

Scarlett: Right. And so how do you treat someone who’s sad with compassion! It’s adorable. Right? But it comes so naturally to them. And then I think, and I wonder, like, what happens when we get older? How come it doesn’t come naturally? How come? How come? Yeah. You know, somebody is is off putting to you. How come you don’t automatically go, oh, yeah. Hurt people, hurt people. That something must have happened. Like what happened to them? Mhm. How come you. So. So we get to this point, we armor up. Right? Right. Because. Because we’ve been hurt. We’ve been betrayed. We’ve been lied to. You know, we’re sick and tired of it. We don’t deserve that. We’re, you know, and, uh, and, and I think we need to kind of get back to that kindergarten type thinking of, wait a minute, we’re all human. And anybody who is exhibiting meanness or off putting behavior, it’s a cry for love.

Alison: Yeah.

Scarlett: And I can tell you from my conversations with school shooters that that’s exactly what it is.

Alison: That’s. Yeah. What happens? I can’t even picture those conversations.

Jean: I mean, honestly like, yeah, scarlett, like going into a prison and having a conversation. Wow. What a powerful presence you, you are holding that you are, that you’re offering love. And it’s, it is fascinating. I mean, it’s so deeply soulful. Yeah. You know, you’re really looking beyond the physical. Um, the, uh, what is that? Um, just what happened and you’re looking underneath the hood and going, this… There is a disconnect of love in this brain or this person, you know, and you’re showing. It’s hard though.

Scarlett: You know, I set myself up for it. Yeah. Because I do, I do a lot of prison work and it’s some of my favorite work Because, um, it’s, uh, no, I, I love it because I have something in common with every single person in there

Jean: it’s the same coin, just the opposite side of the coin.

Scarlett: And they see it in me too, and it’s pain. And I think we overlook the, the powerful, uh, connector that pain can be. Yeah. Because we’re, we’re sitting in there and, and they also know that, uh, or they come to know that I am not there in judgment of them or blame. Um, and I share with them that I forgave Adam Lanza very early on. And, uh, and, and so I’m not there to judge them. I’m there to try to understand them and their pain and, and they, uh, they, I, I hope that I model the ability to forgive for them as well, and and for and I and I know that sometimes when I leave, they ask for forgiveness from their victims, which is a positive thing. Realizing that you need forgiveness and taking responsibility for the mistakes that you’ve made. That’s the first step in trying to learn and grow from them. And, and, and so I think that they’re more open with me than they might be with other people. And what you learn like, like, yeah, it is sort of scary when you hear the atrocities that some of these people that I’ve spoken to have done. Uh, it, it is sort of scary. And then when you’re sitting in front of them and talking with them, you’re like, oh my God, this is just another human being. This is just a human being with a, with a story, with a horrific story, origin story, usually, you know, lots of pain in their childhood, lots of, uh, usually they’re on the receiving end of some really terrible treatment and, um, you know, and, and they made bad choices because they didn’t know they had a choice. And this is, this is something interesting that JT and I, JT is my older son. I actually, uh, dragged him to a, to one of my first prison visits because he had the day off. Um, those pictures are funny because he’s kind of like, uh, yeah. Hello?

Alison: Right. Couldn’t we have gone to a movie, mom? Come on.

Scarlett: Only my mom. Only my mom.

Alison: Right.

Scarlett: Uh, but it was, it was it was it was an incredible day that we had. We spent a couple of hours with these guys that, uh, in a circle and it was videotaped and, um. They were saying basically they didn’t know they had a choice. This was this. And I’m, I’m learning all of this, right? And I’m translating all of this into my talks and what I put into the curriculum. But they were saying all we ever knew was anger, hatred and revenge. That’s what we do. And so if you hurt me, I’m going to turn around and hurt you and the ones that you love even worse. And they said we never knew we had a choice. And if we had known we had a choice. If we had known how to choose a different path, of course we would have done it.

Jean: Mhm.

Scarlett: And, and so that was, that was really powerful. And, and that gets me to the power of conscious choice. And the fact this is one thing. I mean, I didn’t know a lot of this when I started, but one thing I really didn’t know that I still have to keep reminding myself is that we do have a choice. We can’t always choose what happens to us in life because bad things happen to really good people. Uh, and, and I think that’s a really important concept. However, we can take our personal power back when we choose how we thoughtfully respond from that point. And that is what they didn’t know. And that is something, I think, that we need to teach every single child. Yes, you’re going to have pain. Who talks, who talks who? You know, my parents never said, life’s going to be painful. You’re going to have pain and this is how you get through it. Right. Um, and, and so, you know, set them up. Yeah. You’re going to have roadblocks, challenges. Things aren’t going to work out for you. And that’s why this, this formula actually got me through my hard time. And now this is what we teach kids. This is how you return your locus of control, your place of your own personal power. You’re going to have it knocked out of you And you know, one when it’s out, when when you don’t have power, when you don’t feel like you’re in control, you feel helpless, victimized, and hopeless. But here’s a formula that can help you return to your authentic power, where you have the ability to create positive change for a better future. That’s the definition of hope, where you understand that you are worthy, that you are more than enough, that you are capable, that yeah, things are going to happen and they’re going to be hard. But you know what? You have everything that you need inside you to move through it and, and get beyond it. And you also have the ability to make connections and have community and healthy relationships to help you do that.

Alison: So can we, it says for our listeners, courage plus gratitude, plus forgiveness plus compassion in action. And this is the this is your model for Choose Love. So it seems beautiful. And I go, yeah, I like all those things. That’s great. But really, Scarlett, when something traumatizing happens, where do you find that courage and how do you move from courage into gratitude when you must feel? I have had experiences in my life where I have felt devastated or terrified. So how do you how do you move through these as just like a like a normal person?

Scarlett: Yeah, that’s a really, really great question. And let’s move through them together because this is this is how I moved through my devastation. And I will say that it was there was so much pain that I felt when Jesse was murdered. I thought, I thought I was just going to cease to exist. So just so you know, that’s where I started, uh, with, with that amount of pain and, um, and by the way, people saying, yeah, that, you know, other people, other parents that had lost kids. Yeah, you always are going to have that pain. And I’m thinking, I can’t always live in this pain. Uh, that is impossible. I’m not going to live, you know, like this. And I have a 12 year old son and and I’m modeling for him resilience and how to move through this. And I don’t want this to define him. So, so what does that look like in me? And this was really more how I started. It’s like, how do I get back to where we were? Joy.

Jean: Yeah.

Scarlett: That this word was rattling around in my head. Joy. Believe it or not, even, even in my most devastated, I was like, oh my God, we had joy. We had joy. How do I get back there? And so, um, this, this is how you get back to joy. And so courage is like a muscle. You can strengthen it by practice. And it’s practicing doing the hard things. Um, taking that brave breath. Something looks, uh, formidable, forbidding like you can’t you feel like you can’t do it? Uh, take the brave breath, which is for breaths in through your nose, sticks out, stimulates the parasympathetic nervous system. You know what that does? That it really develops that courage muscle because you’re, you’re calming your fear center your amygdala, and you’re helping data move up to your prefrontal cortex, where logic and reasoning reside, where the brake on your instinctual reactions are, where your understanding of right and wrong, where everything else on this list resides, is right here with the prefrontal cortex. So you’ve got to access this First. And so doing the brave breath or doing a brave pose. Like, I don’t feel like I can do this right now, but you know what? I and I can’t get there here. So I’m going to have my body inform my mind. So I’m going to bring my shoulders up and back. I’m going to lift my chin. I’m going to fake a smile right now, and I’m going to stand with my feet of heart.

Scarlett: And I’m just going to say, I know you can do it, buddy. I know you can do it. And it, it absolutely does it. And it’s doing like, imagine cultivating this in kids, right? They’re understanding that they can do the hard things and then giving them challenges and fun things to do. But as adults, um, you know, here’s the interesting thing. I say, uh, you can get through things because you’ve gotten through everything that you’ve ever been to this point, listeners, you’re, you’re, you’re present and you’re listening to this podcast like you are present enough, you’re most likely showered and maybe on your way to or from work like you. You’re doing it. We can’t quit. So cultivating that courage, muscle and and that courage helps us to be grateful even when things aren’t going our way. Because that’s when gratitude really, really, really matters and helps us with our resilience. Literally, gratitude builds resilience within us from the inside out. It helps us go from pessimist to optimist to feeling like there is something that we can do. Finding that little spark, regardless of how dark things look, that is gratitude. And you might think, oh, gratitude. I know about gratitude. There is no greater drug that you can pop that will help you boost your mood faster than thinking of something that you’re grateful for. And here’s a really cool thing. Like if you if you look at at the latest neuroscience and how we think because our brain’s number one job is to keep us safe.

Scarlett: It’s constantly scanning for danger. We don’t even know it. And that’s not just physical, but emotional. And so because of this, 70 to 80% of our thoughts are negative and over 95% are repetitive. So in other words, they go, they just roil over and over in our brains and, and they go through our head single file. So in other words, you can’t think of a fearful, angry, vengeful, negative thought and a grateful thought at once. Right? So in other words, this we call this the great mind shifter. Shift your thinking. So we’re going through the formula right now. Right. So we’re we have the courage. We’re, we’ve done our brave breath and our brave pose and, and we’re going through a really hard time and we are going to find that little spark of something to be grateful for. And and and you know what I just found, which was really beautiful. This spiral notebook that I took early on and I, JT and I each did three gratitudes every night when I put him to bed, I would write three. And they had to be different every night he would write three. And we did this for several weeks and it was so amazing to see what we still had to be grateful for, even during the worst time in our lives. And it was so much every day.

Scarlett: And so it shifts your mind from whatever’s happening to being grateful that in itself, literally, this is science cultivates resilience, and that resilience helps you be able to consider forgiveness. Now. Now, some people may be like, okay, I was following her until forgiveness and now I’m out. But hear me out, please, because forgiveness was probably the single most important thing that I did in my own personal healing. And, uh, and, and I forgave for me. Mhm. Because I got the benefit of my forgiveness. Well, my son did for sure. Because there is, there are decades of, of research on the benefits of forgiveness for the forgiver. You are more resilient. You’re more connected. You have less anger, less depression, less physical ailments. I mean, it goes on and on and on. Uh, it’s incredible. So I, I did not want to become another victim of Adam. And, uh, and I had met a mom whose son had been murdered 20 years prior. And she, she told within five minutes, she was like, oh, so still so angry, Despondent, vengeful, like. And I was thinking, I don’t want to be that. I don’t want to show up like that in any way, shape or form because I. When you hold on to grievances, that’s that’s, that’s something that you’re holding on to that impacts everything in your life that impacts whether you know it or not, it’s impacting relationships. It’s impacting how you show up in certain situations.

Scarlett: And I didn’t want to have that tether to the man who murdered my son, who was dead, by the way. And the only way that I could cut that cord that attached me to pain was by choosing to forgive and let letting it go. So here’s the thing. And this is sort of the little thing that I walk through. Uh, if you, if you, if your audience wants to try this quickly, it’s only a few steps forgiveness. And so if you want to like pull up something that you’re holding on to and we all hold on to stuff. So pull up something that still bothers you, that you pull out when you’re bored and take a look at and you get all angry about, you know, ten, 20 years later. So pull that thing up and I want you to feel the hurt. And I want to validate that hurt because it’s real. And, and whatever happened was real. I’m not saying don’t validate that. I’m not saying don’t pretend it didn’t happen or forget about it because you won’t. And just like I will never forget about what happened to Jesse. Um, so it’s not forgiveness isn’t about that. It’s about making the choice that you want to move beyond that, that you don’t want to hold on to that hurt anymore, that you don’t want to. What I say, I have this slide and it’s a picture of a silver platter.

Alison: Uh.

Scarlett: You and I have the word power on it that you don’t want to hand the person that hurt you your power on a silver platter, right? They might not even know. They might not even care. And yet you’re still doing it. So. So make the choice that you want to get your power back, that you want to have your authentic power back. That authentic power is love coming from a place of love and gratitude for everything. And so make that choice. Okay. All right. Okay. You’re thinking, uh, is making sense, I get it, I want to do that. So you make the choice. I want to do that. You don’t have to fully be in on it. Just be like, that sounds sort of interesting. And I think I would consider that. So, so then, uh, the next step is to harvest the gifts. So look back and think, what did you, is there anything that you gained? And, and I’m saying, I’m sure people are pulling up horrific things, but is it why you chose your profession? Because you were like, you know what? I, I, I, I want to make sure I want to help other people who are like me or, or have you been able to help somebody that you met through something or did it strengthen you? Or did it change the way that you think or did it? Did it help you become a better parent? I don’t know, think of something. Harvest the gifts and you may not be able to do it right now.

Scarlett: Your your brain just may be like, okay, I’m maxed out. But think about it. When you get off this podcast, think about it. What are the gifts? How did it, how did that thing that hurt you help you become the person that you are now? Maybe you’re more empathetic. Maybe you can understand people’s pain more. Maybe you’re more compassionate to other people. So think about it. Think about harvesting the gifts. Okay. And and then, uh, I want you to put it on repeat, because forgiveness is a choice that we make. And I’m not saying like, depending if it’s like a little minor thing, you may have to make it once and then that’s it. But if it was something that was really significant to you that you’ve been holding on for quite a while, you may have to make the choice again. And that’s okay because honestly, with with 13 years now of seven days a week researching this, trying to figure it out for myself, but also to put it into curriculum that’s now gone around the world. Um, I don’t know any other way to let go of grievances, grievances being pain that we hold on to. I don’t know any other way other than forgiveness. And if there was an easier way, I think I would have found it. And there isn’t. So it’s it is the hardest thing, probably, that we will be called to do as human beings, but it is also the one where we will receive the most benefit.

Jean: Mhm.

Scarlett:  we will receive freedom. Freedom from pain that you’ve been carrying. That is forgiveness. Okay- so you’ve got. And do you see how it kind of.

Alison: Yes.

Scarlett: It’s Neuroscientifically accurate. Like you have to have courage first to be grateful, uh, when things aren’t going your way. And that actually internally works in your body and your mind to strengthen you so that you can even consider forgiveness. And then once you’ve forgiven, you take with compassion in action, you take what you’ve learned and you use it to help other people. And that’s why we keep this in action in here. I’ve had people be like, just take the inaction out. But you know what? Here’s the thing. Here’s the thing that I love about this and I have experienced this all of- and I’ll tell the story behind this in a minute, all of the nurturing, healing love that we give out every single time you share your experience with someone or you help someone with the wisdom. Wisdom is what we gain through learned experience, whether it’s good or bad. So every time you step outside of your own self and you give to somebody else that wisdom, you are helping and healing yourself. That is the compassion. That’s research behind compassion. And I can tell you it’s true.

Scarlett: My son the other day was like, oh my God, mom, you’re speaking at another school. Like, don’t you get tired of talking about the story and what you’ve learned and all of that isn’t that hard, isn’t that painful? And I’m like, no, it’s healing to me because I’m giving healing and a way to heal through my experience, I’m gaining that probably more than I’m giving. It’s part of my healing experience. And then when you’ve done that, you’re choosing love. You’re choosing love over fear. And you understand, like if you’re, if you are resisting and avoiding, it’s out of fear. And I’m not, I’m not judging either. Fear means you care,  fear means it’s painful. And, and, you know, it’s hard as a human being to walk into pain, to sit with it, to get curious about it, to understand it when somebody else is mean to you. It takes courage to thoughtfully respond with love and to be kind back. And by the way, all of a sudden you’re like, wait a minute, this isn’t just for kids. This is for kids too.

Scarlett: It’s a lot, right?

Alison: No.

Alison: It’s phenomenal. We’re in awe of you.

Jean: Truly.

Alison: And you seem like just a like a woman that I might meet at my grocery store. And yet you are carrying this incredible love.

Scarlett: Uh, and I’ll tell you something. It wasn’t my idea. Yeah. So it’s not my idea. When I came home after Jesse’s murder. I walk into my kitchen and I find a message that he had written on our kitchen chalkboard shortly after he died. Three words. Nurturing, healing, love. I was, I was I it changed my life completely. I mean, here I am 13.5 years later speaking to you guys again. Yay! But it completely changed my life. And I realized all this chatter about what was going on and what the solution was and laws and all this. And I’m like, no, that’s the solution. It’s so incredibly simple. Simple isn’t always easy. What I’m telling you here isn’t easy, or everyone would do it and we would leave. We would live in a peaceful and kind world that is completely safe if it was simple, right? I mean, if it was easy, it’s simple. Simple isn’t always easy. But everyone can do it, right, it takes effort.

Jean: Yeah. My goodness, you are so inspiring.  in, in every sense of that, the meaning of that word. Um, whoever gets the beautiful chance to listen to you, um, is, will just be raised up. Uh, Scarlett how, how do you get your program out into other, how do you spread your message in other schools?

Scarlett: Well, doing Podcasts like this. We’re talking about it, so I really appreciate it. You are helping me spread this message and all the listeners, please, uh, can I share my website, please?

Alison: We’re going to share it too.

Scarlett: Okay. It’s choose love movement.org. And literally, this is, this is really crazy, but, uh, but the most powerful way to spread a message is by word of mouth. And so it, that is how we’ve spread this, you know, one person, what was that? What was the commercial? Do you remember? Uh, and she told a friend and she told her friend.

Jean: Oh, yeah.

Scarlett:  but really, I encourage everybody that’s listening, you, you maybe, you know, a teacher, maybe it’s your child’s teacher, maybe there’s an administrator that, you know, maybe somebody going to school to be a teacher. Um, maybe there’s a parent. I mean, this is, this is for all ages and stages and the curriculum that we have and, and programming, by the way, for parents and, and communities because, you know, it takes a village and we’re all in this together. We can all speak the same language. It’s all no cost because because this is so important. Like, I don’t know any other way to cultivate the world that we want to live in that is safe and kind. Other than doing this work, actually teaching these essential life skills and lessons to kids and to the adults that will listen and make the effort and help spread the message. I really don’t know any other way. Like I really wish that it was simpler, but, um, but here’s, here’s the fact of the matter. This is what leads to the greatest happiness, which is healthy relationships and meaningful connection and a sense of belonging. I mean, this is it. This is it.

Jean: Yeah. The recipe you have created is beautiful, and it’s, you know, like a recipe. You follow it.

Scarlett: It is like a recipe.

Jean: And you get the end result.

Scarlett: That’s how we teach it in elementary school. It’s a recipe, right?

Alison: And the thing is, right, I, I, I want to make sure that the listeners understand you don’t have to be a parent, right? To have this be important to you. You don’t have to be a teacher or like this can work just every day for ourselves. I just want to make sure that that, that this because I know that this started with Jessie’s murder, but really, this could be about neighbors that don’t get along. This could be right. This could be anything, right? Right.

Scarlett: This is anything and everything and every day, All day long.

Jean: Right- mhm.

Scarlett: And I’ll, and I’ll, I’ll also tell you about. So it’s this, it’s the formula. The formula is behind me. Courage plus gratitude, plus forgiveness plus compassion and action equals choosing love. But it’s also a model. And I’ll share it with you now it’s called the choice moment model. And it is the the pause. So something happens. I’m holding my hand up. For those of you who are just listening, something happens. And so we only have two choices. Something happens in your life. You can react. And most of the time we do react when something happens. Our brain wants to conserve energy. And like you may have, you may have driven to work and you don’t remember how you got there because you’re going on habit and memory. When you react, it’s out of habit or memory, and your brain rewards you for doing that because it wants to conserve power in case something happens. Um, however, when something, when somebody, uh, when your perception is that somebody is dissing you, when you get into a situation where you’re triggered, right? You don’t want to react in kind or out of habit or memory, because habits don’t always serve you and memories aren’t always accurate. So there’s this space that you can create with a pause, and it’s a necessary pause because the latest neuroscience shows it’s so interesting that data comes into our brain from our five senses, through this little thing that looks like a Lima bean called a thalamus, and it sends it to our fear center, our amygdala, and our prefrontal cortex at the same time, which makes sense, right?

Alison: Yep.

Scarlett: However, our fear center is four times faster at processing the information. That makes sense too, because if you’re walking along and a dog jumps the fence and is running after you. You don’t have to consider options, you just need to run. And that’s why this is. That’s why we’re created the way we’re created. But it gets in the way. When you say something off putting to me, I mean, when somebody gives you a dirty look, I even do this in my audiences. I walk by, uh, I mean to do this walk by somebody and I give them a I’m talking right to everybody, but then I walk by somebody and I go like that, and I walk on. I gave them, you know, like this dirty, disgusted look. And then I quickly turn around and I go, what did your brain just do? And they’re like, put up my dukes. Like I had this electric feeling of like, what the heck? Yeah, right. And I said, exactly. That’s your brain’s defense system. It’s supposed to do that. Like, like, you know, I’m talking about choosing love and we’re in this whole environment, you know, you’re safe. And I just gave you a dirty look how often you know, how often do you come into these situations every day and your brain puts up its dukes and, and what you want to do. And then I say, what do you want? I oh, this is funny….

Scarlett: I was actually at a high school and there were 2000 kids. And so I said, when somebody’s mean to you, what is the first thing your brain wants to do? So I walk up to this girl, I pick her out, right. And I it’s probably not fair, but I was like, what does your brain want to do? And I had a mic and I put it in her face and she’s like, uh, uh, be kind and compassionate because she knows I’m the she’s lovely. And this girl behind her goes, punch him in the face. Right. And everybody laughed. And I go, exactly. Because, because we have sort of an eye for an eye brain. Believe it or not, our brain wants to defend us. Our brain’s number one job is to keep us safe. So when you feel triggered, that’s just your brain. Like, what are you doing to my person? I’m, I’m keeping my person safe. Even if it’s words right are my person didn’t deserve that. And here’s the interesting thing. If you were to retaliate right then with words back, uh, I don’t I don’t like your shirt. Well, look at your shirt. You get rewarded with dopamine. Your brain literally is like, good job, Scarlett. You did not deserve that. And you should have said that. Um, I’m going really deep into this and I probably shouldn’t have. I’m sorry, but it’s so fascinating to me.

Scarlett: Okay, so, so, but this is what we’re up against. Okay. So, so you literally get rewarded for defending yourself. Um, but what happens when you do, right? Is that healing? No. Is that potentially escalating the situation? Absolutely. Right. Uh, and, and so there’s no, there’s, there’s no benefit really from that of the situation. So what we teach is this space between what’s happening and maybe getting triggered and your response. So there’s two. There’s only two ways that you can you can react, you can react, or you can thoughtfully respond. So when you react, you’re reacting from a different part of your brain. When you thoughtfully respond, you’re doing it from your prefrontal cortex. And that is the highest and best version of yourself. But it takes pausing. And so what we say is take the brave breath or, you know, like, and you can do it imperceptibly. You don’t have to like, okay, I’m gonna breathe in, you know, but pause and get curious. That curiosity stimulates your prefrontal cortex. That’s how you move that data from simply reacting to your prefrontal cortex, where you can make a thoughtful response of love, but where the highest and best self is, it’s also, by the way, where the brake on your instinctual reactions is. So sometimes people don’t even reach that break. They just react impetuously. But if you’re, you know, an adult and you’re listening and you’re thinking, okay, I could use this with my kids because I get triggered.

Scarlett: Uh, you know, when I walk in at night or I mean, you know, family knows how to push your buttons. It could be a whole bunch of situations. And instead of reacting with anger, you can pause and maybe do the breath if you have to maybe walk out of the room, breath, breath and curious, like, why think about why, why, why would they have said that? Um, and remember, hurt people hurt people, right? Or, or, and, and like, if it’s somebody that, you know, you may know they’re hurt. Oh, I know she’s had a really bad day. She told me about it. You know what? I’m going to let it go. Or, uh, or maybe you don’t know. Maybe you don’t know what their pain is, but you can assume that it’s coming from pain because that’s that helps you thoughtfully respond with love, thoughtfully respond with your highest and best self. I hate your shirt. Uh. I’m triggered. This is my favorite shirt. It has Jesse’s picture on it or whatever, right? And, and I go, um, well, you know what? It’s my favorite one. And I really like what you’re wearing. Then you’re. Here’s the great thing. Remember the silver platter? Mhm. Silver platter with your power. Like if you’re reacting out of anger, you’re basically going, here’s my power.

Scarlett: Here’s my personal power. I’m giving it to you. Yes, yes. Because you’re making me. I’m allowing you because nobody can make you angry to make me angry. So here’s my personal power. You have so much control over me. You can actually control my emotions and you can actually upset me. That’s the power I’m giving to you. Or you can retain that power and and and then and let me tell you something, how you get rewarded with your brain. You get what’s called the Happiness Quartet. When you’re able to have the self control that it takes to thoughtfully respond with love. You still get dopamine because I don’t want anybody to think I’m trying to take away their dopamine. I’m not. You get you get what we call a dose of nurturing, healing, love. You get dopamine, you get oxytocin. Your bodies… It’s called the love hormone that makes you want to reach out. That is is comforting. You get serotonin, your body’s natural mood stabilizer. And still there’s more…. You get endorphins, your body’s natural painkiller. So when you’re able to thoughtfully respond with love. You get a dose of nurturing, healing, love. You get a lasting lift of feeling really good because you maintained your personal power and you have risen above. You have not gotten down in the mud to wrestle. You have put everything to bed and there is no escalation. You have de-escalated right then and there.

Alison: That’s amazing. I love that and I love, I love that, then you, um, later on, like I might be able to do that in that moment, do you know? But then later on, I don’t have to think about it anymore. Oh, I and be a victim of this moment, that was years ago. Do you know, I don’t have to roll over it in my head?

Scarlett: Exactly, exactly. You put it away. That’s it. You’re done. You’re done. So if you could use that choice moment when you’re triggered, right? Initially.

Jean: Right.

Scarlett: You’re done. Yeah. You felt the trigger. That’s okay. That’s your brain at work. Thanks, brain. I got this right. Yeah, I feel you, but I got it. Or. Or even if you do take it right. Sometimes we do, right? Sometimes you get triggered and you can’t. You just can’t manage it. Right? You may be tired. You may be hungry. You may have already had a whole bunch of triggers that day. It may be just the perfect zinger that you can overcome and you take it with you, right? You can actually, at any time, if it’s 20 years ago, if it was five minutes ago, take out that grievance and and look at it and go through the same process. Pause. Pause. Get curious. What did they actually mean by this? Why, why, why am I allowing this to trigger me so much? Is it a trauma in my childhood? Like, why do I really care like this? Right? Um, what did they actually mean? Was it coming from a point of pain in them? Am I going to allow them to have this power over me that, that I’m going to put it back in my sack and I’m going to continue to carry it.

Scarlett: no, i don’t want to do that. I don’t want to give them my power. I want to have a nice evening. So you know what? I’m going to let it go, i’m going to let it go. And you may do that in a in in a myriad of reasons. You might write them an email or a text just. But, you know, very this is after the fact. But like, you know, what you said hurt my feelings and it’s not true. And I’m not carrying it, you know, and, uh, however you, you want to resolve that that is the highest and best version of yourself. And think about if we had a world where people knew how to do that, and they actually did practice it. We would still have upset. We would still get mad at each other. We would still have triggers, we’d still maybe carry some stuff, but we would know how to handle it. And, and if a world knew forgiveness, there would be no wars. And I think that’s very poignant right now since we are actively in one. Yeah. There would be no wars. Yeah.

Alison: I wish I could just hug you.

Jean: I know.

Scarlett: Oh. Virtual hug.

Jean: I just really, you’re just amazing. Thank you so much, Scarlett.

Jean: And you just bring all this wisdom into a very practical, useful, doable technique, right? Yeah. Technique. And thank you so much. And we really champion your life, your family’s life.

Alison: I bought your book for so many friends and read and they love it. So I can’t, you know, and the teachers that I know, I have totally been like, you have to look at this. You have to. So we will keep we keep doing the good, the good mouth work.

Scarlett: Thank you, thank you, thank you. And if you’re a parent out there and you’re going, you know what? I already know all this. And I already, you know, do this with my kids. There are kids coming to your child’s school that don’t have this foundation, and those are the kids that you want to have. This is why it’s necessary to have this in school, because there are kids that are not feeling loved. There are kids that carry grievances that are valid that, uh, that, that start revenge loops that can end up in very dangerous places for themselves and for others. So this is why this is 100% necessary. It is an essential part of school safety. It is actually the number one most overlooked aspect of school safety. I talk about that because it’s the grievance end of the pathway to violence. So much of our effort is on that, you know, attack end and hardening schools and door locks. And, um, that stuff is important, but it hasn’t solved the issue. Yeah. This down here can reduce and even prevent it. So this is really where we need to focus our efforts. And that’s where I have been focusing my efforts for 13 years. But I appreciate, you know, all the help I can get. I appreciate you two ladies so much for championing this work, for helping me spread the message, for putting this on air. You know, everything helps and, and all of you that are listening that are going to go talk about this and share it. And I really, I really appreciate all of it.

Alison: Well thank you. We have two quick wrap up questions.

Scarlett: Okay.

Alison: Okay. Scarlett, our website’s inside wink. What do you think that means inside wink.

Scarlett: I think that that means the little nod that you give yourself every day. That you are okay and that you can do it, and that you are worthy and that you are more than enough, like an inside wink to yourself.

Alison: Oh, I love that. I love that. We’ve never heard that. Okay. Good job Scarlett.

Jean: Obviously not as articulated as you just did, but that’s beautiful. Yeah. Uh, okay. And the last question.

Scarlett: Wait. What does it actually mean?

Alison: Well, it’s open for interpretation, but, i think it’s okay. It doesn’t really. It just it means like. Like I see the love in me. Sees the love in you for me.

Scarlett: Oh, I love that. I think we’re saying the same thing.

Alison: Yes, exactly.

Jean: Okay. So, Scarlett, do you prefer cake pie or ice cream?

Scarlett: Oh. Ice cream. Hands down. I love ice cream… And, uh. And you know what? I’m lucky that I grew up with a mom, like, I. I come home after school and I’d eat, uh, half a gallon, which is not good. I’m not saying it’s good at all. I would say I would feel awful about myself, you know, and like down in the dumps and, you know, and my mom would come in and she’d go, honey, it’s milk that makes your bones strong. It’s eggs. It’s, you know, and it’s just a little bit of sugar and like, don’t feel bad about it. Just go out and, you know, run. Run around the circle and you know, it’s fine. And you know what? There is research now that shows that the thoughts that you think about what you eat, determine how it is digested within your body and how your body, literally, how your body sees it and digests it. So, uh, so like every, so when I have ice cream, I’m just like, body, this is a treat for you. Isn’t this fantastic? You totally deserve it. And yeah,

Alison: I love that.

Jean: That is so wonderful.

Alison: Please, please come back again another time because I will talk to you so much. You’re just wonderful.

Jean: You really are. Wow, what a blessing you are to us, to our world.

Alison: To our world. Scarlett.

Scarlett: Thank you, thank you, as are both of you. Thank you for all the content that you guys are producing and all the greatness that you’re putting out into the world. Really, really appreciate you.

Alison: You’re doing so much. So have a beautiful day and we will be in touch with you.

Scarlett: Excellent. Thank you so much.

Scarlett: Much love. Scarlett.

Jean: Bye, Scarlett. Bye.

Scarlett: Yes. Hearts. Yes.

Alison: Oh my gosh. Right. Like just being around her energizes me in a way that I feel like she speaks directly to my soul or my heart.

Jean: Yeah. I think she really articulates who and what we really are as human beings, that love that resides within us and how to cultivate it. If, if our conditioning has really dampened that down. Right. And her message, as you were sharing on the interview, Alison was her method, her recipe can be used, of course, in schools, but also in friendships, in in marriages, in, you know,

Alison: Whatever supermarket, in the supermarket, anywhere.

Alison: And I, and I feel like I thought that made so much sense because I know sometimes someone will say something to me and I just want to yell at them. And, and she goes, will you get dopamine for that? And then but I love that pause. Like, if I can take a moment, right. And think because I never feel good when I yell at someone or criticize someone, I never feel good afterward. In the moment, it feels like maybe like a jolt of caffeine, but I never feel good afterward. I always feel better when I’m coming from a place of love.

Jean: Mhm.

Alison: Even if I had been hurt. Right. You know? Right. I just, I just you guys check out her website, read her book, Nurturing Healing. Love is such a vulnerable look at that day for her. Yeah, it is an amazing book. I’ve read it a couple of times now. It’s just really something.

Jean: And, and her website, uh, is beautifully set up and it’s easy to navigate. And if you want to champion the power of love, this woman is a great, uh, initiator for that.

Alison: Yeah. She’s amazing. So we love you guys. And I love you, Jeannie.

Jean: I love you, Allison,

Alison: And have a beautiful day. Thank you. Scarlett.