Podcast Episode 89: Rev. Keith Horwitz

Alison : Oh my goodness. Okay. I’m so prepared today wait I just have to adjust this. There we go. Hi, Jean.

Jean: Okay. I love that we are back.  In our uniform. Black top and jeans.

Alison : That’s right. And we never talk about it. And yet we’re like, oh, look, we wore the same thing again. There we go. Except Jean is a different season. Jean has a turtleneck and long sleeves and I have a short sleeve, so we’re covering both bases.

Jean: Why am I wearing this in like 80 degree weather? Because it’s really chilly in my house.

Alison : It is. It is. It’s fresh and cool in here, right?

Jean: Yeah, yeah.

Alison : Um, and, uh, so you have met someone that we’re interviewing today that you know, right?

Jean: Yes, I, I know his husband, but I also know Reverend Keith Horowitz from the Agape Church.

Alison : And Aum & Garden…https://aumandgarden.com

Jean: And Aum & Garden. And, um, he’s just an amazing, brilliant spark of light. I love whenever I talk to Keith, he’s just so open, so available, and he always responds with something of wisdom. And I just think he’s going to benefit whoever listens. If just you and I listen, this is going to be an awesome conversation.

Alison : That’s right, I can’t wait. I mean, I know Aum & Garden – it’s this beautiful shop on Ventura Boulevard in Studio City,   https://aumandgarden.com and I know Jerome who runs it. So I’m excited to actually talk to Keith and see… I looked him up and he looked so interesting. Like he just looks, you know, like he’s got a lot to offer and had a really interesting life story. And I think he’s going to be great.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison : So are you ready.

Jean: Here we go.

Alison : In our black and jeans. Here we go.

Keith: Hey there!

Alison : So quickly and snappy. Hi. Hi. I’ve met you before. I’m Allison.

Keith: Yes. Nice to see you again.

Alison : Nice to see you.

Jean: Oh, Keith, it’s great to see you.

Keith: Likewise. Likewise. Thank you for having me.

Alison : Um, I we were talking that I looked up a lot about your bio and your whole experience is so moving. And I was wondering if you could just share a little bit for our listeners, how you came to be where you are today and what you’re doing.

Keith: Well, I’d like to say it was quite a journey and it was, but, um, it all started out, you know, I think fairly typical, um, in terms of, I was, you know, brought up to kind of, you know, chase money, career and go for all kinds of you know, I’d say traditional goals. Um, and I didn’t really have a lot of guidance, but that’s what I did. Um, and I, you know, made my way into a career that I just happened into. It wasn’t really my conscious choice, i was just following money. Um, and I was in political advertising for, um, a little about ten years, um, was what I ultimately ended up in. And I worked my way up the corporate ladder and I was making a lot of money. Um, and I was never more miserable in my life. And then, uh, and I was, you know, I was drinking, smoking, partying, which was actually kind of part of the industry. Um, and, and then one day when I was, uh, for a couple years, I had been suffering, uh, it was a very gradual onset, uh, what ultimately ended up in severe panic attacks, I would say even debilitating, debilitating my ability to participate in even flying at one point. And as it got progressively worse, uh, two years before I had what I would call a transformational, mystical experience.

Keith: Um, a friend of mine had kept suggesting that maybe I try meditation, maybe I try prayer, maybe I try, you know, yoga and, and balancing my chakras. And I was like, no, no, I’m you just keep that woo woo stuff. And, um, but when I finally hit a point where I was at at the end of my rope and I tried to hide most of it, um, I would suppress it, which did not help at all. Um, and I was going to the doctor and they were getting ready to put me on all kinds of prescriptions. And that’s when I was just like, I had kind of a bit of a breakdown. And I said, you know what? I will explore this woo woo stuff that you were talking about. And, and that’s when I got introduced to the divine energy medicine, uh, that world and I experienced like an Energetic like lift of anxiety and stress, like lift off of my, my being. And I felt so relieved and I didn’t know it at the time, but I experienced grace and I experienced a spiritual magnificence. Um, I didn’t know what it was at the time, but I became ravenous for it. And so I dove into everything I could get my hands on, uh, in terms of divine energy, medicine, meditation, energy fields.

Keith: Um, and the short version is that I basically dove in hook, line and sinker with a very healthy, healthy all along the way, skepticism as to like, okay, let’s just make sure this is real. Um, and uh, because I wasn’t into any charlatan experiences and, uh, and as I progressed, I just kept having healings after healings, and eventually i didn’t understand how it all worked, but I wanted to understand how it all worked scientifically…. I didn’t even know that I was a scientific nerd at the time, but I am a spiritual and scientific nerd and I want to prove spirituality. I don’t just take it, you know, at face value. Um, and it’s like, no, it’s got to be experiential. And so, and that’s what led me, led me to, um, to Agape International Spiritual Center, which led me to a realm of spiritual study where it was like, oh, that’s why this is and how this works and the laws that govern it from regular laws of physics to the laws of metaphysics, um, and the healings of, ah, like being free from anxiety and panic attacks and all the things that came with it, um, is, you know, been worth everything aside from the bliss that comes with it.

Alison : Right. Thank you.

Jean: And so you became a minister…. You took it…

Keith: I-  if you had asked me when I when all this started, if I was going to be doing it, I would have said, are you crazy? That is not. No, no, that’s not happening. I just started taking classes in everything from Reiki to ultimately what I became passionate about, which is integrated energy therapy. Um, then I took all the classes in the New Thought, ageless wisdom teachings at Agape, um, from meditation to mysticism to, you know, just everything. And, and then lo and behold, I was in the practitioner studies program that I was just like, well, yeah, this feels right. And I just did it. Um, but when I, after four years of, uh, you know, going through what the two years of pre-reqs and the two years of practitioner studies to become an Agape licensed spiritual practitioner, then then I became clear I actually understood what passion was, which I had never understood or experienced before. And then I was like, oh yes, I will be entering the ministerial program. Not because I necessarily wanted to, because there was a lot of reasons not to do it. A lot of time, a lot of money. Um, but because my soul wouldn’t settle for anything less.

Alison : I love that there’s that saying that we’ve heard that says, you begin chasing spirituality and then spirituality starts chasing you.

Keith: Yes, definitely.

Alison : Yeah. Can I ask you a question just about what you just said? Do you have to believe integrated spirituality, uh, energy healings in order for it to work?

Keith: No, as a matter of fact, the reason I say no is because most people don’t even know what they believe. Some people think they believe one thing, but they actually believe something else. Some people think they know…They believe certain things about prosperity, but they don’t. You’ll know what you believe, how it out pictures. So a lot of people think they don’t believe in something and then they actually experience a miracle. But there was a part of them that actually really did believe they just weren’t aware of it. So yes, I’ve had some of the most meetings still… I still have a healthy I will test everything, right? Um, but some of my greatest experiences with clients have been people who are very skeptical. Um, and all of a sudden they have an enormous mystical experience.

Alison : Oh thank you. That’s great. Yeah.

Jean: That really speaks to, um, what you just said before proving, proving that consciousness informs matter.

Keith: Yes. Yeah. Because, you know, that’s, I think been part of the… (oh sorry)

Jean: No you go no, you.

Keith: I mean, that’s, I think where traditional religion has let people down to some degree. It’s like, just trust us. Just believe it. Just these are the rules. And just follow that. And you know, where we say like, have a direct experience. If you, if you’re not feeling it, if it’s not, you know, if it’s not a direct experience, then it’s just rote and it doesn’t have the meaning and it has to have the meaning, um, in order for it to be real, you know, and what is real, real is– you feel it, you know it. It’s a, the thoughts, words and deeds all line up together. Um, so it has to be real. So to me, thankfully, um, I need for things to be real. And that’s why I, I, you know, one of my favorite mystics of all time, um, is George Washington Carver. Um, and you know, he is like the perfect mystic because he was a scientist and he was deeply spiritual and he would go into meditation and he would, you know, known as the man who talked to the flowers and he would go out and what… And I’ll keep this short.

Keith: He was just… If you want to look into him, whoever might be curious. He was born in a time when he should not. He had all the disadvantages born at a time where just…He’s a black man right after slavery ends, and all the things are pointing against him in the South, um, and yet none of that mattered because he was in a mystical realm, and he would go out and commune and say, tell me your secrets, whether it was to the peanut or the flowers. And then he would sit in meditation and that energy would come and he’d journal it out, and then he’d go into the laboratory and he would see like, was it right? And of course it was. Um, and I think that’s a perfect blueprint of how to like, oh, well, let me see, like, let me check out what is all this? You know, for me, the law of creation is, is where it’s at. Um, a lot of people think the law of attraction is where it’s at, but the law of attraction is nothing without the law of creation.

Alison : Nice. Nice.

Jean: Okay. Well,You’re already building my passion, and I know today, and I hope you come back again, Reverend Keith, but today we’re going to talk about true abundance and prosperity. So given those words, what comes…. I think most people think finance when you hear abundance and prosperity…. Let’s hear it from you what does true abundance mean?

Keith: Well, first and foremost, I think that’s the perfect place because I was going to say, if you’re going for prosperity, if you’re going for abundance, you have to choose. Are you picking joy, genuine prosperity, or are you going for artificial prosperity? And I think most of the world is looking for artificial prosperity, where it’s like, it’s just the rich, kind of like what I was doing back in my corporate days. I just need the house. I need the car. I need the whatever it was. Some people, it’s like I need fame. Um, and it’s like, okay, no, genuine. I mean, if you look up the word prosperity, um, it’s auspicious, it’s about thriving, it’s about cooperation and it’s complimentary. It’s always now I’m paraphrasing the definition, but it’s to be prosperous is a state of being. So it radiates from you. Um, and it always includes a win win. Um, you know, there’s no competition in true prosperity. So to, you know, so to go practical versus, uh, you know, principled, um, is what you look at. And there’s a couple things I was actually looking online and I was like, well, let me see, like, you know, the difference between practical prosperity versus spiritual prosperity. And there’s three things that they have in common. And that would be being a visionary. Yeah, there’s a vision. So if you look at, you know, Apple or any of the other big companies, there’s a vision we’re going to be the best computer company there is. Well, and it’s usually has passion in there. So it’s like, all right, so visionary.

Keith: I’m going to put that in both columns. Um, then there’s a part in the practical where it’s customer centric, which is what they would say. But for us, I would say how that serves others, how it serves our self and how it serves others. Those kind of were on the same page pretty much. And then there’s, um, kind of when you’re in the practical standpoint, it’s like there’s an operational efficiency. That’s a big part of being prosperous. And I would say spiritual efficiency is also really good. There’s where the similarities are– but then when you get down to things like budget driven, where it’s like, oh, how does this serve our stockholders? Or whether it’s competitive and we’re going to be the best and we’ll win at all costs, or whether it’s profit driven, you know, those are the things that we’re spiritual and practical start to separate. Um, and so to be truly, you know, prosperous, what I think the actual essence of prosperity is you kind of have to choose the spiritual route, um, which is going to be include generosity, generosity in a vibrational frequency, which syncs up with the law of circulation means that you circulate from a place of kindness and authenticity. Um, I was thinking about like, I’ve been working with doing this…. So for 25 years is when the shift took place. And then, um, and I started working with people on a regular basis probably 20 years ago. I’ve worked with millionaires, even close to billionaires, and I’ve worked with people that are, you know, trying to get their rent covered.

Keith: Um, and I’ve met people, rich people who are stingy, um, very prosperous, very, you know, financially sound, um, but not very generous. And I’ve met people who are generous to a fault who, you know, what’s the old expression– can’t rub two pennies together and, um, and it’s like, so what does being in integrity mean? Yes. You can be what would be called practically prosperous without being in integrity with spiritual law. Um, and there’s a whole bunch of reasons that that can happen. Um, and you can be in integrity to a degree, but not necessarily experiencing it, but then you have to be self-aware enough to find out, you know, the key ingredients. Worthiness is a huge ingredients to true prosperity, self-esteem and self-love and, and worthiness is huge. I just did a five week class on this whole thing where we dug deep into all of this. Um, deservedness. And you know, What does that mean? As far as my deservedness and the deservedness of others, if I’m judging others. Um, and you know, you know, what are my opinions about rich people, like looking at these kinds of things. Those are clues as to what could be inhibiting if I’m not experiencing, you know, like financial success. Um, and, uh, you know, to really get into, but to make it genuine is one of the key ingredients and the worthiness, the generosity and aligning everything with all of that with passion and purpose and vision, um, to me is what really quantifies and qualifies, uh, the authentic prosperity.

Alison : That’s beautiful. Um, when you say that there are people that cannot meet like their rent say, right. So then that brings up to me, um, and if they’re working towards trying to be in an abundance consciousness. How does self-blame not come in?

Keith: Well, yeah, and that would definitely come into like, what am I doing wrong? Um, but so for me, for an example, um, it’s a silly story, but it’s a point of being self-aware. So I, after I left the corporate world and my belief system subconsciously was work hard and make a lot of money and do it at any cost. And, you know, my dad, um, he didn’t really pound it into us, but he was just like, you know, it sunk in somehow. My subconscious, if you want to make more money, then work more. If five days isn’t enough, then six days. And if six days isn’t enough, then seven days if you really want it, you know? And I was like. And I always was like….. So my surface mind was going, but my subconscious sucked it up because there I was, I was working really hard. I would work sometimes 50, 60, 70 hours a week when we were in crunch season and it was very. And it added to all the stress. And so as I woke up and started to become self-aware, I, I remember I was going through a meditation and I’m going deep into what ultimately came out about what I thought about rich people and how that came to be was I became aware that like, if you brought up the, I, the if anybody ever brought up a conversation about British royalty, I would just go on a tirade about like, oh my God, that is the most ostentatious, the most egregious, like the most self-indulgent.

Keith: I had everything not good to say about royalty, especially the British royalty, because it’s just like you just handed it on a silver platter and then you, you’re just special because of your bloodline. Um, and I had a real judgment about it. There was an edge on it. And I was right, I was right, but I wasn’t. So, um, what that took me to was I followed. It was Rich people can be evil, bad.  They’re greedy. They do things out of integrity. You know, they’re entitled. All these things. And if I want to be rich, but my subconscious is saying that’s what they are, and I don’t want to be that, i have two opposing energies in my subconscious. And that’s where I was having to work hard for the money, because I was working in opposition to the part that knew I deserved it. Um, and so I had to let go of all that judgment. Um, and it was somewhat of a process. And, and then after I did through, you know, healing and tension, you got to bring intention in.

Keith: It’s like I have a formula. I call it the assess, address, bless.  You assess what’s going on. Oh, what’s going on in my, my financial field or my prosperity? Then you address it. I got to bring in an intention. What am I going to do about it? And then you bless it. Then you bring it into a place of prayer, of meditation, of really activating spiritual transformation. Um, so I assessed what was going on. Then I started to address it and then I was like, oh, okay, I’m going to liberate myself from that. And then all of a sudden I had just so much more compassion. Coincidentally, I started seeing some specials about like the royal family and how all the horrible things that you have to go through, you know, with all the, you know, being in a fishbowl and everybody judging your every move and move and all that stuff. And I just had more compassion and I realized, you know, that…. So all that judgment was gone and all of a sudden financial prosperity and abundance started flowing more. And I was like, well, isn’t that a coincidence in the laboratory of my life, right?

Alison : Yeah. Right. Exactly.

Jean: I mean, it’s such a call to consciousness, like to really wake up to what you’re thinking, what you’re believing, the conditionings that we all have. I mean, we all have it. And, um. Okay, so so on that note, what are some easy daily habits that someone can start to, to do in their life? Like they don’t know too much about Agape or science of mind philosophy, but they’re, they are anxious about their finances. Where, where would someone begin to address their consciousness so that they could have more peace and bring in ultimately more abundance financially?

Keith: Well, first i would say um, three books that I highly recommend. One that I would say is pretty secular. Um, it’s called True Wealth by Ken Honda. Um, and it’s just such a nice take on looking at all of this from so many different angles. I highly recommend that because you want to be inspired to do something. So if you’re reading a book like Spiritual Economics by Eric Butterworth or The Four Spiritual Laws of Success by Edwin Gaines, those three books, I think are fantastic for authentic prosperity. But then you have to be able to be self-aware and explore, explore a concept like generosity. What does it mean to be generous?

Keith: Generosity is a key ingredient to prosperity. Whether it’s generous with love, whether it’s generous with money, whether it’s generous with your time and your nurturance and your support. And you have to look at it from both sides of the coin. And I love that I can use a coin for this analogy. Um, because the one side is how am I at receiving and how am I at giving? Um, and I had to look at that. And I also, as I was looking, I noticed that I had a pattern as I looked back and you really have to have a meditation practice or a contemplative or reflective meditation. You don’t have to like get all deep and “OM” and all that all the time, but very going into reflective.

Keith: And I was going back and I was, I had some issues on both sides of the coin. I wasn’t really good at receiving. I noticed that when people would give me compliments, I got, i felt uncomfortable when people gave me gifts, i also felt like, oh, and there was a that was tied to some worthiness. It was normal in terms of what, you know, how many people feel. Um, but that doesn’t make it natural and it doesn’t make it prosperous. So I started to look at that and I was like, oh, there’s a part of me that’s rejecting my goods. So my assessment, then I went into the addressing, which is I want to know what it’s like to be good at receiving my good. Um, and that was my question slash intention because the question was to bring about the intention, which is, yeah, the fulfillment of that. Um, and it was uncomfortable, it was uncomfortable to shift into a place of, I call it divine receptivity because it’s humble, it’s pure, it’s kind, it’s loving. And it’s like, and it takes getting used to. Um, so to look at that and then also look at the flip side of that, how am I in generosity and giving? Um, and, um, you know, I have a quick story, I don’t know if we have time, but I have a short story on the giving part.

Alison : Please.

Keith: Um, I, um, I had gone hiking, came home five days later, I had this burning, burning rash and I was in a financial freedom class at the time, and we were studying tithing, giving. You know, like, what do you do with, you know, giving money to whether it’s an organization or whatever it was? And, um, anyway, I got this burning rash across just below my belly button on my lower belly and, and I didn’t know what it was. And I scheduled an appointment to go. I asked a friend of mine for a dermatologist, and I went to the dermatologist and they looked at it and it was like, it was like this big, like eight inches by three inches. And it was painful. And I said, well, it’s not skin eating bacteria and it’s nothing bad… I’ll give you some cortisone cream. And they sent me home. They didn’t exactly know what it was. And I was the cream did nothing. But then I was like, well, your body always tells you what’s going on, so I’m going to sit with it because I have no choice. I can’t every time I move, it just burns.

Keith: So I’m just going to lay down. And I hovered my hands over it and I was like, you know, what do you need to tell me body about this? And I had to go deep and it was like, oh, you’re being cheap and you’re not being generous enough. You’re kind of like tight. And the only way I can describe it is most people, if you’ve ever gone to a restaurant and you’re just not in the generous mood, and when it comes time to tip, maybe you’re just like a little like, ah, I don’t know if I want to give. I go just a little bit under the 20%. I’m going to round down and I’m just not feeling really generous. But you know, you do that, but you don’t know why, but it doesn’t feel good. So that’s kind of the generosity I was speaking of. And so I was like, oh, so I’m listening to it. And it was basically my body was telling me to be more generous. Well, that happens to be the part of your body. Finances in front of your body is giving back of your body is receiving. So it was in the giving in the financial sector of my sacrum at the at the bottom of my, you know, belly and well, that’s just not a coincidence.

Keith: And every time I would think about being generous, the pain would go away. Um, and I had all weekend to be with it and the rash started to dissipate and dissipate as I was, you know, meditating and accepting that and then thinking of ways like, of how to liberate myself from being in not in the mood. Um, and then I finally went to my regular physician on Monday to, um, because I couldn’t get into him before that, it was too late on Friday. And he’s like, oh, that’s just poison oak. And I was like, oh my God. So, um, just the way it was set up for my world to, because if I had gone to him, he would have given me steroids on that Friday and I probably wouldn’t have thought twice about it afterwards. Um, and this made me think twice. Um, so again, I went into the laboratory and discovered that your body doesn’t lie. It will tell you what’s going on. And even if it’s poison oak, Um, and, uh, and it was very liberating. And it’s like to be more generous and not let your subconscious emotional body run the show. It’s like, oh, I just don’t feel like it. Right? Why, why don’t you feel like it? Generosity. If you had no issues, would just be your natural state of being.

Alison : Yeah. So, so just about that, uh, first of all, how much do you tip? No, I’m only teasing.

Keith: I like to tip generously.

Alison : Me too. Um, I was I was a waiter, a waitress for a while. Um, uh, that idea of being generous, even in love. How can you be generous and still have self care?

Keith: You know, um, it’s really interesting. People don’t realize that a lot of times we have reactions because we’re just being plain old selfish. And I don’t mean selfish in a, you know, in a way that’s like I’m trying to be, um uh, withholding …most of us, we just don’t know why. But, you know, I remember so my husband and I were, were having a– every year we live in a neighborhood with lots of Halloween trick or treaters. And every year we have trick or treaters and we usually have a few people and we have like a little dinner. And then we answer the door and all that stuff and hand out the candy. And so I had cooked and I had set everything out and, um, and our guests were here and then the doorbell kept ringing and I kept having, I was like, oh, okay, I got to get up and go answer and give the candy. And after like the 20th time I was and you know, this is like several years in the making. I’m like, uh, maybe I could get a couple bites in. Can you go answer the door? Um, and so, and I was getting irritated. And when you get irritated, you want to withhold your love. And I wasn’t really paying attention to his energy field. Um, so anyway, later I, we had an argument about it and then I thought, um, and the argument was very superficial. It’s like, I’m right, you’re wrong and vice versa. And so I just decided, you know what? I’m going to be compassionate no matter what. I’m just I don’t know how I know I’m right in this, but I’m going to just see, is there a possibility that there’s another vantage point? So I sat and I really went into a place of compassion and I didn’t want to because you can feel like when you get real sensitive, you can feel when your heart kind of shuts down and I’m withholding my love and it’s open.

Keith: And so then I said, you know, and we started talking and he started sharing when it when I created a safe place, which was not being right. Um, I created a safe place and I started asking questions and he said, you know, when he was little, um, his brother was, uh, quite a bit older than him had gone off to um, Vietnam. Was it Vietnam? Whichever the war was, was in the 60s. Yeah. Um, and he was probably four, I think, at the time. And a knock came on the door and it was a soldier, and they were letting his parents know that his brother was killed in, in combat…. And, um, and he was picked up and rushed off and, um, he just remembered that it was an exceedingly emotional and a devastating time for his parents. And, um, so the knocks on the door brought back those feelings, which created a subconscious not wanting to answer the door, um, for the trick or treaters. And it was like, oh, how could I, I’m just selfishly thinking you’re just not pulling your weight. And it was like, well, there was more to it than you’re just not pulling your weight. It’s like there was actually a subconscious trigger every time they would come to the door. So that made a huge difference. And it made it so I could be more generous with love. Um, and it’s like, you really have to be willing. You can’t stay the same and expect things to be different.

Jean: Yeah. That is so true.

Alison : It almost makes me cry. That story though.

Keith: I cried during that time. I was like, because it was just like, who would have thought? There’s always nobody withholds or treats people poorly without some reason. Um, and, and it’s like, so, and it builds up that compassion and that compassion, it spills out into all other areas of life because integrity is, is true compassion, um, which, which is an ingredient for prosperity, because integrity is a, for true prosperity or, you know, um, genuine prosperity and abundance. And it’s like, so to not withhold those things. It’s, it’s, you know, that’s why I started to understand, oh, the meek shall inherit the Earth is because to, to you have to be meek, which means you have to be… I always I coined that it’s benevolently vulnerable. I will be vulnerable in a benevolent way so that there can be transformation instead of stagnation. Um, and it really makes a difference. It’s not always easy.

Alison : No, no.

Jean: Wow.

Alison : Because I sometimes I have to say I want to be right. I want someone to acquiesce sometimes.

Keith: And sometimes we even are right. And still there’s more to the story.

Alison : That’s exactly right. There’s more to the story.

Jean: I mean, it’s like. And it’s that other phrase that says, do you want to be right or do you want to Be peace or be happy. And then I want to be right. I don’t care.  laughting

Alison :  Not you though.

Jean: No, I think, but that’s so true. just look how that circles into having more compassion for our fellow humans. We don’t know the conditioning. We’ve all been through and endured and why we, why we act. And, um…

Alison : Well, can I ask you something along the same line? If you, if you have in your orbit, um, someone or something, I think it’s going to be a, someone that is, um needing from you financial stability constantly. Then it’s not like your husband or your kid or a relative even they’re needing that from you. Is it generous to keep giving them that? Is that is that generosity or is it is like, like, because sometimes it feels uncomfortable.

Keith: Yeah. And it’s a case by case basis. Um, because, you know, I grew up, I was taught not verbally, but by demonstration, like you throw money at stuff. Just like, okay, and you can throw. And I’ve seen lots of people. It’s like you throw money. When I am in 2005, I, um, I had been volunteering at an at risk youth organization in South Central and they asked me to be a mentor in this mentoring program for a year. And, and it was just an amazing, amazing organization. Um, and, but you had to, you know, go get all processed and fingerprinted and all that stuff. And, and they matched you up with a kid and they really emphasized that you cannot buy your way into this. Do not buy them gifts. You can basically, you can get them food when you go out. And if it’s their birthday, you can get them a present. But it’s about creating something deeper than what money could buy. And I didn’t realize at the time that that was like just that was kind of new because I, the whole time that I kept wanting to buy stuff for him. Um, and I was like, no, connect, connect, connect. Um, so there was that. And then there was, um, but the case by case basis was, um, I had somebody that, um, classes I teach, uh, once upon a time people would do a payment plan. Um, and they would make a deposit and then they would payment after the goods were delivered. And I had two people pretty much close to each other that entered into payment plans. And, um, and then one of them, um, both of them actually kept stalling afterwards, stalling and stalling and dragging out the payments and having excuses as to why.

Keith: And I kept checking in and I kept checking in, am I to forgive this? Um, and just that’s just to be part of their experience that they get to experience what it’s like for somebody to just forgive something. And in one of the cases, it was definitely forgive their debt. And I did, and they were so appreciative. And the other one, for whatever the reason was, it was like, no, they need to be able to find the muscle to take care of this. And so I was like, okay. And it took the first one over a year to pay off. Oh, no, they, they, I forgave it. It took the second one over a year. Actually, it was close to two years to pay it off. But then in both cases, the forgiving and the one that it didn’t they um, they both came back years later and were like, just so generous. They had both made, uh, you know, really hit some, a lot of prosperity and success. And they were so grateful. Um, and so it’s like, yeah, sometimes it is really wonderful. Um, you know, I kind of look at things, if you’re going to loan money, you better make sure you’re probably looking at it as just being a gift. Um, and, you know, and so, but to, you have to evaluate every situation because yeah, if people get used to handouts, they, you know, it’s you got to teach them how to fish sometimes.

Alison : Teach them how to fish. Exactly. Right.

Jean: Not always give the fish.

Keith: Right. Right.

Jean: So you need to really give some contemplation, thought conscious thought, whatever to what’s coming up. It is a case by case.

Alison : And it’s also what feels right for you if you’ve given it some time, not just that knee jerk egoic response of like, I gotta save you.

Alison : Yeah, exactly. You really have to spend some time.

Keith: Yeah. And as a, you know, direct, I’m the spiritual director at our center and we have to look at that. I remember when I was working the prayer lines at Agape, we get, you know, you’re sitting in the room and you’re answering all the prayers. And sometimes we would get calls from people who were like, my rent is due tomorrow. I don’t have it. And I would be like, okay, we’re going to go into prayer. And they’re like, I don’t need prayer. I just need money. I need you to give me money. And it was like, okay, you know that those are two intentions that aren’t matching. You’re calling a prayer line, not a donation line. Um, and that’s kind of not the way it is, but as a spiritual director, there is a part in our community where it’s like, you have to look at like, well, where can we and when we do, we have to have people fill out an evaluation form and we have to find out like, hey, what’s your intention? What are your goals? Um, we have to give them a structure because it’s like if you’re just saying, give me money and I’m just going to keep doing the same thing I always do that always leads leaves me in a place of having to ask for money. Then we’re not helping. We’re just, you know, putting a band aid on the inevitable, which is like the consciousness has to be transformed. So even the simple questions of what is your intention about this? What are your goals and all that, it helps start putting the energy in a particular direction. Um, and it’s, you know, and I, we were there almost when, when I quit my job in the corporate world, and I went from six figures down to four figures. It was dicey for a while. Um, almost to the point where we almost had to declare bankruptcy. Um, and thankfully, that’s when I started to do all my prosperity work and it went and authentic prosperity. Oh my God is so much more delicious and satisfying than, you know, the, the inauthentic or the artificial prosperity.

Alison : Yes, totally. And just before we end, can you discuss a little bit about want?

Keith: Oh, yeah.

Alison : When you want something?  Should i want something or should I just put it out there and ignore it? Like, can you give us a little idea how to navigate that?

Jean: And  is wanting and desire the same thing?

Keith: I definitely do… Well in my world, want goes with the ego. I want the job, I want this, I want that and it’s usually very superficial desire. And I’m talking about capital D desire, is the impulse from your soul. Your soul is desiring to experience and express things. And when my intention matches my desire, then I’m a house united, or I’m on the same page within my own beingness. When my want, which oftentimes is not a match to my desire, then I’ve got one foot on the gas and one foot on the brake. And, and I’m going to probably experience…. And it also, you know, when I follow my wants, it’s kind of a waste of time, um, because it’s very inefficient and it might take you down a hole, uh, you know, a rabbit hole that you didn’t really want to go down. Now, the good news is at any point you can, you know, shift on a dime to come back to desire, but getting familiar with desire, um, takes getting used to because most of us have been trained to be familiar with want, And also want comes with a lot of impatience, and I used to be the most impatient person in the world. I think when you looked in the dictionary you’d see my picture. And so. But oh my God, I will, i will just get on my soapbox about patience, because it is one of the key ingredients of faith, one of the key ingredients of optimism. And it is so delicious. And I’m not talking about the drum your nails patience. I’m talking about the patience where it’s like, oh, time expands patience  where you know everything is good patience. Um, it really makes a difference. So yeah, that’s the way I look at want versus desire.

Alison : Thank you. Yeah. You are, you are just a fountain, a fountain of just beautiful ideas. Thank you so much for today.

Keith: Oh, well thank you. My pleasure. Yeah. I mean, you know, if I was going to pat myself on the back, I would just say like, I’m not stopping. I’m gonna keep going and go deeper and higher than ever before and continue to use this, this laboratory that is our lives to like, let’s do some spiritual experimentation.

Alison : How can our listeners, before we ask you our two final questions, how can our listeners find you or hear more about you?

Keith: Well, I am the spiritual director at Soul Center,OC. We’re an Agapé affiliate in Irvine. So I speak every Sunday almost unless I’m off. Um, and Wednesdays we do a meditation or they can go to Keithhorowitz.com to find out um, you know about me or Soul Center.Com.  https://soulcenteroc.com

Alison : Thank you.

Jean: Wonderful. And then I’m going to make sure that those three books that you mentioned, Rev Keith, are in the transcripts. So whoever is listening can take a look at those,

Alison : Right.

Jean: Alright, so we have two last questions. As Allison just said, what does the term inside wink mean to you?

Keith: I love that it feels like your soul is winking to you. It feels like it’s in your heart where you like, like we were just talking about your desire. You’re feeling a connection. It’s an it’s like, you know, I mean, to me, it’s just becomes more personal. It becomes more intimate is what it’s like. Your, your soul is like this way. This is how you get there.

Alison : I love that –  this way, I love that.

Alison : And then, you know, probably the toughest question we ask anybody, pie cake or ice cream?

Keith: Oh, well, definitely I’m going with pie.

Alison : Really great. What kind.

Keith: Fruit pie. Um, yeah, I mean I’ll try to keep it as healthy as I can with lots of fruit. Um, but I do, I even before making it healthy pie was. Yeah, maybe a little ice cream on top.

Alison : You’re with us.  I like them all, so I have a hard time.

Jean: But what fruit pie. I’m just curious.

Keith: I love strawberry rhubarb.

Alison : Yeah.

Keith: Which was a later in life discovery. Um, so blueberry and strawberry were always the ones until strawberry rhubarb came along.

Alison : Right? Because it’s got like a it’s got like a tang, right? Like, I just love that. I agree with you.

Jean: It’s a great blend of strawberry and rhubarb.

Keith: Yeah, totally. Yeah. i didn’t even know what rhubarb was until I had that, and I was like, oh, this is really good.

Alison : Bring that to the lab.

Keith: Yes.

Alison : Exactly.

Jean: Manifesting more rhubarb.

Keith: Yes.

Alison : Thank you so much. Keith, this was wonderful.

Keith: Oh my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Jean: I had a Great time chatting with you. And I really hope you you’ll come back on our show and we’ll talk about another topic.

Keith: Absolutely. Anytime.

Alison : We would love that.  have a great afternoon.

Keith: All right.

Alison : Yes. Say hi to Jerome for me.

Keith: I certainly will.

Jean: Okay.

Alison : Much love.

Keith: You too.

Alison : Bye.

Jean: Well, he hit it out of the park.

Alison : He’s so nice. And, you know, I realized when I saw him.

Jean: He is so nice.

Alison : He’s so nice. I realized when I saw him that I had met him once at Aum & Garden. But we never spoke. And I didn’t know that he was such a wealth of just beautiful thoughts. And I like how he really clarified things in such a thoughtful way. And it was all about I, when I got out of it was about taking a minute and taking time to really think and go deep. Like, like when he like, like, take a minute with your consciousness with yourself in a quiet place and really give it time to think and see where you’re headed and what you’re doing. I really thought that was so not just like, just follow these rules and everything’ll like, take a minute. Like when he was talking about those two people that he had different experiences with about, about paying for something. And I thought, look at that. Like he really just thought about them each differently and consciously,  and made two different decisions, and he was fine with it. He wasn’t like, well, this is the rule I follow, He took a minute to hear his heart.

Jean:  and I too love that. And I think that is really about what spirituality is about. It’s becoming conscious in in your thoughts,  and therefore in your words and in your deeds, right? Like not just going off of conditioning or habitual, like, why, why am I afraid right now? What’s going on within me? Um, so I really enjoyed him. I we could have spoken for much longer.

Alison : I loved him, I think maybe to have him back and discuss something else, because he really was so open to the questions.

Jean: And I loved his stories that he shared. So yeah, thank you so much, Reverend Keith.

Alison : That was that was wonderful and we hope that, uh, you check him out. We’ll include everything on the bio and, uh, and just have a great day and take some time to hear your own heart maybe

Jean: I love that.

Alison :  Take a little minute.

Jean: Right,

Alison : Right. Have a great day.

Jean: Bye.

Alison : Bye.