Podcast Episode 69: Anne Sanderson

Jean : You go first.

Alison : Me go first? Hello, Jean.

Jean : Hello, Alison. You’re looking mighty fine this morning.

Alison : Thank you. We had a lovely event last night.

Jean : Yes, we went to the Wespark, uh, torchbearer ceremony.  I was thanked along with many other wonderful people for contributing to Wespark…

Alison : Which is a cancer support organisation. They’re wonderful. And what a what a lovely group of people that we met. And we knew some.

Jean : We did we, we saw, um, Ed Begley Jr and his beautiful wife,

Alison : Who we’ve interviewed, and Danny Miller, who we’ve interviewed,

Jean : And his lovely wife Saguda was there and, um,

Alison : We knew Marlene McGirt and Nancy Allen, who we’ve interviewed.  insidewink gets around.

Jean : We do. We get in all the hot places.

Alison : That’s right. But it was fun. And I’m not I don’t really necessarily feel very comfortable at those reception thingies, but you’re so good at, like, talking with people, like, just they’ll say, oh, Jeanne, this is Bob. And you’re like, hello, Bob. And how, what brings you here?

Jean : And what sign are you, Bob? Do you know your moon sign?

Alison : You’re so good at it. I’m like, hi, Bob.

Jean : Okay. I think we’re going to drive our listeners nuts, but that’s so not true, Alison, you are a great speaker.

Alison : I think … I learned from you.

Jean : Oh my goodness. Okay, well, we learn from each other, but you you are great on your own.

Alison : Well thank you. Thank you so much. I just mainly stayed by the food area where I feel most comfortable.

Jean :  me too. I was by the bar where I’m most comfortable.

Alison : It was truly a lovely, lovely night. And speaking about learning, we are going to learn a lot today, aren’t we?

Jean : We are. Because we are speaking to Anne.

Alison : Sanderson.

Jean : Right.

Alison : Who was recommended by a friend of ours.

Jean : Beth.

Alison : Beth. Right. And, uh, there she’s with an organization, or she founded an organization called, Thinker Analytics.

Jean : Correct. And and I think their philosophy, their mission is excellent because goodness knows, we people need to know how to think in a productive and informative and clear way.

Alison : Exactly. And so it’s a lot about critical thinking, which I’m not even sure I fully understand that. And also, um, argument mapping. Yeah. So I’m really interested to hear what she says. So then we can…. You and I can get some really good arguments and just map them out.

Jean : Exactly. That that’s my goal, right?

Alison : That’s it. That’s what we’re living for. Well, here she is, Anne Sanderson.

Alison : Hi. How are you?

Anne: Fine. Thank you.

Jean : Great. Well, thank you for making time to be with us.

Alison : I’m Alison.

Anne: Oh, nice to meet you. Yeah.

Jean : And I’m Jean.

Anne: Okay, great. Well, we’ve all read our website, so…

Alison : That’s right.

Anne: I’m Anne. Um. And I’m the executive director of this of this organization. And, um. Yeah, your your whole philosophy and approach to, uh, human beings really is kind of, uh, wonderful and, you know, very Uplifting. So. And we don’t usually have, um, interviews with or podcasts with people who are taking that approach. Um, usually it’s, you know, in academia. So this is going to be really fun. I’m looking forward to it.

Alison : Thank you for saying that. We we looked at your website, and I have to say, it’s kind of amazing, and I’m so curious to actually understand what it all means.

Anne: Yeah, I think you and many other people, I think it’s part of our project, is just messaging the deficit in critical thinking skills in, uh, I would say this country, but I would probably, I think probably the whole world in some, in some ways, just with technology and changes in the way people learn and classrooms and interactions with screens, all of the things we know about and have known about for a long time. But Thinker Analytics is is really trying to give people these cognitive skills, these skills of critical thinking that are just so important to confidence and, uh, kind of respectful interaction.

Jean : I mean, right out the gate that that is so important to, to really teach someone how to think. It it reminds me of that slogan. I don’t know if you know this. It was the, um, the American, but it was a mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Anne: Yes, I remember that. Yeah. Um.

Jean : Um, the Negro fund, the American Negro.

Anne: Yes. Way, way back when. Indeed. Yes. And, um.

Jean : And rather than just. It sounds like, just hear, memorize this, memorize that. You’re really, uh, giving people  the best tools, how to use this phenomenal mind that we’ve been born with.

Anne: I hope so. I think that and just, uh, just agency in your in your life, um, if you have these critical thinking skills and sometimes people want to develop the whole child and, and, um, in emotion and, uh, feelings and we are so behind that. Um, but also having these kind of cognitive skills that I think are connected. But I can’t explain how from all my years of teaching, but having these cognitive skills, skills, kind of these intellectual skills of logic and reasoning. I think that’s got to be one of the underpinnings of a, of a confident thinker, um, and a respectful thinker.

Alison : What actually is critical thinking?

Anne: Well, this is a great question. That doesn’t and I’m not saying that in a kind of a cliche way. Um, I was just reading another article because we’re about to do a partnership, um, working with AI and trying to use AI in a really positive way to, to help students think critically. The definition is simply not pinned down. I think it’s because, like many terms, it is a term that has an umbrella of meanings. Um, it just has many, many meanings and people squish them all in there. But um, really, for the purposes of what we do and many people who use the word critical thinking, technically, I would say it is the, uh, it’s the skills associated with argumentative reasoning, which is reasoning logically, um, and, uh, using relevant and true, um, evidence and  inference to make a good argument. That’s what critical thinking is at its kind of its core. And then it makes you better decision maker. Problem solver. Um, you know, all of the things negotiator, all of the things that you use and extend those skills extend out to make people more reflective and kind of precise when they think.

Alison : I have to say, I love you a little bit more because you said sqush.

Anne: Well, I work with philosophers who are interestingly, very much computational people, um, and computer scientists. I taught English and theology, so.

Alison : Oh.

Anne: And raised four children. So the word squash has a very special, I’m sure.

Alison : I love that.

Anne: Your parents, you know, it has a very special meaning. Yeah.

Alison : How do I know that I’m not, or I am critical thinking?

Anne: These are really insightful questions. I think, um, probably — A,  you’re you’re you you probably don’t know if you’re not critical thinking. Um, I think critical thinking requires, um, a word I used before, which is precision of what you hear and kind of patience to process it accurately and then respond. Um, and it happens in many different contexts. So if you’re just critical, if you’re thinking to yourself, um, you’re reflecting on what you read, um, and you’re making inferences that are, um, that are true, as I said, and accurate. And then you are applying that thinking to maybe a problem or making an association with something else, um, and bringing that together or synthesizing it into a, a new idea or a clarifying idea. All of these things are so abstract, by the course and very hard to understand. I’m grateful for this podcast just to refine that message, because as I said, when you talk to academics, they have a sense of this critical thinking definition. But I have to say, I think part of the problem with critical thinking is we don’t have a really, uh, a really condensed definition that will help people understand what it is. What what I think is helpful when I talk to people is, it’s a very active kind of thinking. Um, if you are an athlete or you, you work out. It’s kind of like active thinking because you have to be going back and forth, and you’re checking yourself to make sure you’re you’re accurate and your logic is solid. And there are actual measures of whether or not you’re doing it well. Um, so, uh, it’s less interpretive at its core.

Alison : Oh. That’s interesting.

Anne:  and more precise. Yeah.

Jean : Anne, how do you feel, or what do you notice in people’s thinking? Like an average person. Like what’s your your sense of how people think?

Anne: I, uh you mean the maybe the problem we’re trying to solve?

Jean : Yes.

Anne: Would be, I think what happens is that, um —and of course, siloing makes this worse, just obviously… Um, but you approach a conversation or a text, um, with some kind of assumption, um, about what you’re about to hear. Um, and that gives you then you’re predisposed to having a certain interpretation of what you hear. So, um, slogans can do this. We do it in the course where we have what you were talking about before, a slogan or a powerful phrase that kind of bends your thinking, uh, in a certain way. Um, and I think that’s what happens. People enter conversation without, uh, the idea that you’re going to learn something from it, the conversation. But the idea that you just want to put your, uh, position forward and that, um, act is honestly where we are with polarization and so on, because it just shuts things down. It doesn’t open your mind. Um, and one thing I actually was reading about that I was going to say, but make me pause if I’m talking too much.

Alison : No, you’re great.

Anne: I’m not prone to that. Okay. Um, is that the word argument, um, comes from a Latin word that means clear, white and illuminating. And what argument has come to me…So when we go to people, the first thing they think about their slant on argument is that it’s fiery, incendiary, frustrating, full of falsities. Everybody, you know, comes to a discussion that’s going to be an argument like that, where the definition is really about disagreeing with people to get all sides. So you’re somehow enlightened or you gain some illumination on an issue. So it’s really the act of learning. And so what we’re trying to do is get that definition forward instead of the first definition in dictionaries right now, which is a fight. And that’s where the course starts, is just making that distinction and letting people feel comfortable in a new definition.

Alison : That’s so that’s so interesting. And I think, you know, we talk about this a lot with our guests about curiosity. And it sounds like that’s sort of what you’re referencing that like right now I’m going to just get my point across to Jean as opposed to really being curious about Jean. right?

Anne: It’s spot on.

Alison : Okay.

Anne: Curiosity is spot on. Yeah.

Alison : So here we are at Thanksgiving, and we have family members from all different backgrounds. What tips can you say to me to get through that dinner without jumping over the table and throwing mashed potatoes?

Anne: Okay, this is the hard part of Thinker Analytics. So I and I will bore you. But that is a trope and I love the trope. We even have something on our website around Thanksgiving, so for those crazy conversations. Um, but what our whole mission is to give people the skills so that when they walk into that conversation, they will be, um, they will be calm because they will be listening for the argument, they’ll be listening for the way the person’s reasoning and be able to calmly tell them where they disagree. Not that they’re wrong, but where they disagree and why. And you do that with this visualization process, with argument maps. And that’s the bread and butter of what we do– is train and the students train and they practice and they practice with these argument maps so they understand how arguments work. So you’ll enter that Thanksgiving conversation with the confidence to listen to someone that you disagree with. And also just the kind of respect for the moment when you can be curious about their position. Um, but you referenced learning. I mean, listening, and that’s, the key part of curiosity, because if you’re curious but you’re not really listening and responding to exactly what the person’s saying, conversations aren’t going to go anywhere.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : That is so true.

Alison : And I’ve been in those.

Anne: So have I,  many times.

Jean : Yeah. And, you know, there’s a certain quality of a conversation when someone is thinking mindfully, they have an open mind, you know, you can you just –there’s a depth to that conversation. And I and I love it sounds like that’s what you’re, you’re helping people to to expose. So who are your clients?  Are you in universities like, who comes to you?

Anne: Um, you all ask the best questions. So we started in high school because I was a high school teacher. And what we soon found is that high school teachers couldn’t teach reasoning because, they were never taught reasoning. So reasoning skills are not taught as a discrete skill set in most schools. Um, so we pivoted to higher ed, where professors have have really treated reasoning as something they have to do because they’re writing dissertations. And that’s going to be, uh, how they make a living. Um, and so that’s where primarily we work, um, with those folks and with, um, you know, private schools at the secondary level that have the resources and, uh, maybe a philosopher on staff that can that can help with the reasoning part. So, um, yeah, mindfulness is very interesting to me. I mean, if we all had mindfulness exercises before entering even the realm of reasoning, it would just be so much better. It’s just a calming down part. But that’s not what we do. We really do the the cognitive part. So we’re mostly in higher ed and, um, uh, you know, our ambition is to go all the way to elementary at some point.

Jean : Right.

Alison : Because I think that would really help with the bullying situation. What you’re discussing.

Anne: Yeah…Because you just if you really engaged in arguments with people, um, and you’re thinking about the structure of what they’re saying at that level, um, you will, you will be, um, you will like them because they’re just another human being with a different point of view. And you’re looking at at something that isn’t the topic. It’s more how the topic is being addressed. Rest and you’d be shocked at how many people struggled to do that.

Alison : Really?

Anne: Yeah.

Alison :  they struggle with what though… they struggle with seeing each other as as just a human being with a different point of view?

Anne: I think so, but going back, I don’t think I was clear. I think the struggle is, uh, separating the the structure of the argument, the truth of the evidence, the strength of the inference. That’s an argument map from how the person feels about the topic, from the topic itself. So when we do a death penalty topic in an argument map, if people are against the death penalty, they can’t really enter the structure of the argument and say, whoa, this is a really good argument, even though it’s arguing for the death penalty. They can only slant to their point of view, and we really have to tutor them. No you’re not you’re not looking at the topic. You’re really looking at the structure of the argument. And that takes a lot of training.

Alison : Wow, that’s so interesting. Yeah, I kind of love that.

Jean : Do you think it’s it’s where does debate, the word debate come in to your field of study?

Anne: Yeah, we we’ve worked, you know, our, uh, when we started, some of our great, uh, graduates and undergraduates that worked with us were debaters because, they were naturally interested in arguments. But they are, um, do either of you have debaters in your or were you debaters?

Alison : Yes.

Anne: Um, I had great arguments with our world class debaters, um, about persuasion being a good thing or a bad thing. So if you’re trying to persuade someone, you might pull out all sorts of tactics to get them to believe what you think. Um, which is fine. That’s how good argue arguers work. But for students to think that winning is the end of an argument is not what we want to do. We want them to think that learning more about the topic. And both are right. It’s just two different goals. So yes, we’ve worked with debate and but it uh, yeah, but we’ve we uh, depart a tiny bit where our goal is for the skills. So the skills for us is to open your mind and the skills for them is to persuade, um, the win, that’s all..right.

Alison : Um, so how do you know? You said a minute, a little while ago. How do we know that news or facts that we have are the  truth? How do you know a reliable source…. Like I feel like now I’m inundated with, you know, very disparate things on what should be facts, and how do I know what’s reliable and what’s not.

Anne: Yeah, they’re really good um, resources for, uh, understanding whether or not your evidence is, uh, is true. Um, whether or not your facts are true. Um, I know Stanford has a really good program for high school students and college students to to help people. And I’m sure there’s startups doing that all the time because it’s a common problem. Um, and we could do argument maps saying, you know, where you’re checking your sources through one of those filters. Um, because that is very, very important. But I think really the, the hardest thing that we do that is people are not familiar with is the relevance of the claims, is the inference. Understanding how inference works is kind of the muscle of argumentation. That is how the one claim connects to another. Um, is the connection strong? Does it make sense? And a lot of bad arguments, um, and arguments that mislead people have bad inferences. They they just they’re not giving you something relevant, um, or untrue premises, untrue claims. But that’s kind of the, uh, we don’t do that truth finding because that’s a, that’s a whole skill in itself. And I’m sure there are lots of organizations that do that better than we do.

Alison : You watch the news?

Anne: Yep.

Alison : And so you watch the news or you read the news and so do you sit there and think to yourself, what.. Like do you argument map what you’re watching?

Anne: It’s hard to do with, uh, with the natural language. It’s hard to map something absolutely. But yes, I think about how their arguments are put together or how they leave things out is another problem to to give a slant. Even, you know, great media outlets do it, um, or throw things into this… You begin to be able to vet arguments and see tactics that people use, even in straight reporting. Yeah. Just to just so you have an angle. Um, I think what it did for me over all these years is look at my be able to reflect on my own assumptions about things and understand where my own, uh, biases set and, um, and just evaluate them more carefully. Yeah.

Jean : I remember my my husband would watch a lot of news. All sorts, not just one news station.

Anne: Yes, yes.

Jean : He was a great critical thinker, but he also would be very aware of when someone answered the question and when someone you know was really a pro at kind of.

Alison : Like finagled.

Jean : Finagled it and got out of the question or… Oh, I know you’re asking me about the budget, but I’m going to talk about immigration now. And, you know, he he was like, uh, he lost my vote… He should have answered the question because he…

Anne: That’s brilliant. Um, and I know he was brilliant, but that’s brilliant because that’s the best example I can think of, the most glaring example of weak inference, that is not connecting one thing to another with strength. You’re not connecting that question. You’re deflecting that question. So in a really broad sense, that’s a weak, that’s weak inference. And it really does enable, um, bias. And, you know, uh, just that kind of deflection is, is people are masterful at it. Um, but a lot of people don’t know how to read it. So once you understand the the importance of relevance, you can say, well, that wasn’t answering the question at all. Where did that come from? Um, and that’s a good disposition to have because then you can do that, you can be more critical, that’s critical thinking right there.

Alison : And we looked up, um, argument mapping, which my, my son had heard about, you know.

Anne: Oh, nice.

Alison : But but I had not really, and boy, it’s hard. It’s like not a ..it’s not like something you’re going to pick up today. You know it’s a…

Anne: Yeah it is really hard. What I am so proud of with the philosophers that I work with is they operate at such a high level, argument mapping is really hard, but they have distilled it in our course to the most basic elements. So really it’s just delivering a vocabulary and a way of thinking about arguments. And hot topics are in our course in a in a systematic way. So that’s I’m so glad you looked it up, because we, we do have debates about this when you can create your own argument map. You’re very you’re at a very high level of reasoning by the end of our course and the advanced content, you can do that. Um, but you’re still going to, it’s still going to be hard, like a math problem. Um, but yeah. And so what we do now, we use a lot of ready made maps just to give people training in how to think about an argument. I always tell people it’s like those books how things work.  Argument map is a great is a great tool for showing people how an argument works, kind of the mechanics of it, like a diagramming a sentence in grammar.

Jean : Right.

Alison : So if you’re going to do right now an argument map for dummies, could you give us an idea of because I’m, you know, I’m a little older than college age and I would love to learn and take away something from talking to you that I can actually perhaps use. Is there a way that you have something like that?

Anne: Um, we do. The best thing for me to do would be to send you a map to look at. Like to describe a map is not really doing it’s work. Um, so the best thing to do is to post a map, um, where you can see the lines and so on. And that’s what the course does… It’s a slow unfold of what a full map would look like with objections and co premises, which is where bias sits. Um, but it is a sequential course and it’s super condensed, super, super short for, for the skill that you get. Um, and the other thing I just have to say not as an advertisement but as an, as an element of our course, is that it’s done on that mastery learning so that students have to practice and then pass a check, a mastery check, demonstrate the skill, and then they move on and they have to pass the mastery check it in 90%, which is really hard.

Alison : Yeah.

Anne: Student after student after student is able to do this because they have to learn it. So they do. It’s a little bit Khan Academy uses that kind of technique. Um, so, uh, I’m trying to think so, if you said, um, the the death penalty, um, the death penalty should be banned. Okay. And then you set your, your inference line. What do you think a supporting idea would be for– if you were saying to me, you know what? The death penalty should be banned.

Jean : Um.

Alison : I guess I guess I, I guess the things that come into my mind is, um, it cost too much money. It’s cruel. It’s sort of like, uh, do what I say, not what I do, you know?

Anne: So that’s three. Yes. And if a philosopher were doing this with us, they would put these…. You gave me three reasons. Um, down below with the inference line. And then they would ask you to– they would flesh out some of those, um, they would ask you questions about them to make them far more specific. But it costs too much money would be, you know, that’s that’s a pretty strong reason you’d have to have a source for that and evidence for that. But, um, and that would be the inference line would lead to that would lead to that reason.

Alison : That’s interesting.

Anne: And, you know,  it is technical. But all I can say is these people are like magicians. They’re so good at it, that they can take it to its absolute bare bones to teach anyone how to do it. And only an expert can do that. I couldn’t do it. I’m not a philosopher.

Jean : Anne,  can like Alison and I take a class. Or is it…?

Anne: Yeah. You can. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So, we’re a nonprofit. I think you know that. Um, and but we we do charge, uh, students to take it. It’s below what we have to pay out, but, um, and I can just send you the link, and you can actually register as an instructor and take the course, poke around on the course. Take the course. Um, I don’t even think you have to pay right now, but we’re we’re in the midst of not only refashioning it, but getting AI integrated so it can help students. It can bring students through the critical thinking process. We want to make AI a really positive force. Um, we’re working with the professors doing a study on that this year. So, um, so I’m really happy to have you look at it and see it as it transforms.

Alison : But our listeners also look at it.

Anne: Absolutely. Anyone can pick it up and take it, uh, soon available on, you know, Barnes and Noble websites and things like that.

Alison : We’re so excited when we jump on each other. Go ahead..

Jean : I want to know, Anne… Do you do anything with the body or breathwork to help ground someone? Or do you really leave that alone?

Anne: We do not do that. I think in in our space, we just have so much respect for the people who do things well. Um, and so there I, my sister today is talking to someone in the mindfulness space. And as I said before, if people could enter a room where there’s going to be disagreement and do some kind of preparation of the body… Um, because I think the intellect and the body are so much more intertwined than we think. Yeah. Um, I, I, I’m excited about learning or making those partnerships happen because I’m, I’m a deep believer in that. Uh, just the physical the, the connection between the physical and the cognitive is just so important. So I’m I’m grateful for the question, and, um  i can’t wait to hear what my sister says. This woman that she’s talking to, uh in DC is, uh, she’s in that she does mindfulness with, um, primary school, elementary school kids. I’m  just so curious, because I don’t think it would be any different for people our age….i think we’re all we’re all needing some help in that, in that place.

Alison : I totally I totally agree with you. I’m interested in AI, you know, um, uh, I, I’m an actor also, and so AI has a lot of different, um, uh, things happening on the acting front that are frightening to an actor, you know? And so I’m wondering just from from this, is is AI…. Do you think I is thinking?

Jean : Um, that’s a very big philosophical question. Yeah. Um, and AI will get better and better and better. And the great and good luck that I’ve had is that our tech lead was an undergraduate, um, when I was working at Harvard, and he is a philosophy major, but he was, he’s a computer scientist, and he has been able to keep us at the edge of technology through our development… and that’s almost ten years.

Alison : Wow.

Anne:  He’s an expert in AI. I hope you interview him sometime. Stacy just interviewed him. He is a superstar because of his heart. He has an incredible….  he wants to make the world better, um, with technology. And he actually has a mind to do that. So he’s the one that is shepherding us through this AI, um, development. And so he knows we all know that calling it thinking is dangerous…. Um, and but we also know that anything new like this is going to cause a lot of angst, but it is probably inevitable. So trying to find its best iteration, its best self, is what we can do for people in the future. Um, so I don’t know. Again, I feel like I’m…. I guess it’s a podcast, but I feel like I’m talking a lot.

Alison : No, you’re so fascinating.

Anne: It’s about these people I’m working with are truly fascinating. Um, but what he thinks and what he is going to try to do with this professor is to make AI a coach for, um, pushing critical those critical thinking muscles. Um, and so it’s not going to be something where you spew a question and grab content. It’s going to be more of an interaction. Um, and that’s a little scary because it feels a little more human. Yeah. Like the machine is a human. On the other hand, if it can do that and if it can make people better critical thinkers, uh, that’s probably a good thing. So, um, but I hear you. It’s it’s intimidating.

Alison :   It has very serious implications on many levels. And serious is just meaning serious. Not like…

Anne: Yes. No. Yeah.

Alison : You know, what’s interesting is when you’re talking about, um, uh, critical thinking and discussions, I feel like my parents and grandparents were really good at talking with people that were very different than them, and then being able to eat dinner, like, then being able to go take a walk, like there wasn’t what’s happening now, which is like emotionally violent and sometimes physically violent. What happened?

Anne: I think… I hate to, I’m just not an expert in it. I think there are many, many more people in the world. So people are are around many more people.

Alison : Oh, that’s a good point.

Anne: I that’s the only thing and technology. Um, but that’s just written about and written about and written about. I think, um, some of the really interesting research is about attention span. So one of the, you know, just the, the byproduct or the collateral damage of technology is having no attention span. Um, you really do need to do good argumentation and listen to people and not storm away. I’m sure that Covid probably hurt a lot of just human to human interaction, um, and learning. So, I do think it’s a whole bunch of things. I think in history, these there are other times that have been like this, uh, and I yeah, I hesitate just because I don’t want to sound cliche or expert on it. I just…

Alison : No, we’re just interested, you know.

Anne: I know, I agree. I’m interested too.

Jean : What you just said about attention span. I even notice for myself because I spend more time on the computer than I like. And and it’s like, hurry up, hurry…. It’s like I have this motor in my brain. Quick, quick, go to this page. Flip over here. Go back here. And I don’t think that’s so great for us. And do you have any tips on how to strengthen our ability to focus?

Anne: This is just me. I’m a career educator. I think schools are going to become one of the most important spots for that kind, for any kind of work. I think they’re going to look very different. There’s going to be much more coaching and online learning, where you can bring in experts online to give you content and kind of motivation, motivation and great teaching skills. But it’s going to be we’re going to be teaching different things. We’re going to be teaching attention span, for example. And I think mastery learning is one of the great ways of doing that. It’s been around since the 70s. But if you can’t complete something until you show that you can do the skills, you’re absolutely forced to have the attention span to complete the different lessons. And when you if you do the course, even a few lessons, you’ll see why you have to practice and get a streak before you can move on. Then you you move on to another skill and you have to practice until you get a streak. So it’s kind of gamified. And then finally you take this mastery check that’s really hard. And most students whip through them and they get like a 60%, even if they’re brilliant and they’re curious.

Anne: They’re so mad. Our chat explodes with emojis. And why is it 90%? And it’s because they they won’t take their time and just plod through and get the skills. So the way that we’re going to, we’re going to have to give people exercises, students exercises that extend their attention spans. And what you said, maybe part of your being anxious is that you’re you know, you shouldn’t… this is, I’m speaking for me… I know I shouldn’t be doing that, but I’m going Instacart, uh, what can I get on? I mean, it’s unbelievable what I can do. Uh, in in a span of three minutes, I’ve been to 60 sites and gotten nowhere, and I know I shouldn’t be doing it. So that builds anxiety in people, I think, especially in our age group. But, um, yeah, there’s a lot of great. Do you know Jonathan Height? So and he has research on attention span, and they’re just saying, it is going to be the single most important thing for people to have coming out of their educations because of what’s working against us.

Jean : Yeah.

Anne: So I think there’s going to be very good training in extending your attention span… Thinker analytics– that mastery learning makes that happen.

Jean : Right. Excellent.

Alison : That’s you know, you are so.. I was a little afraid because, I thought this woman’s going to not be able to, like, deal with me..  (lots of people over talking on each other)……

Anne: I haven’t online shopped once during our whole conversation.  hahah I have to say though, I’m so grateful to talk to people who are excited about, um, just changing things in a really positive way. And that’s the sense I get from your website, like just opening it,  i feel really, um you’re just doing great work.

Alison : Well, so are you… I’m really interested. If you send us that link, we’ll include it in.  You’re fascinating. We just have two quick wrap up questions. What do you think inside wink means?

Anne: So as a former English teacher, I did think about these questions. I saw them in the email. Um, a wink is a gesture. Um, gestures are famous and famous moments in literature…. certain gestures… and I thought, wow, a wink has to do with insider understanding and, uh, humor. And it’s fast. A wink is so fast and so subtle. Um, and all of those things combined with inside, uh, I just thought it was, um, fun… and asking people to look interior, uh, and to think the interior, um, but in a kind of playful way. So I don’t know what it means, but I, I love I love it.

Alison : Yes. You’re right.

Anne: Oh, wow. Oh, good. I love it.

Jean : And you expressed it so beautifully.

Anne: Thank you. I know that I had fun, I went to the etymology of the word, like I did with argument. I was like, wow, what is a wink? And it’s a it’s pretty fun to go look at all the different… Where the wink.

Alison : You’re you’re wild. You’re amazing.

Jean : So in your in your world. And do you prefer cake, pie or ice cream?

Anne: That’s such a layup. I so prefer pie to any of those things.  I love pie. I love fruit, I love lemon meringue.  I don’t know why… I think it’s a texture thing… different textures in it.

Jean : Mhm.

Alison : Yeah.

Anne: For you all, and why do you ask that question? I’m really curious. I know we’re over time but…

Alison : No it’s fine.

Jean : It’s just a fun kind of… This is just we’re ending with dessert and…

Alison : And it’s funny, you get these very serious people talking sometimes, and then when we ask that question, you see a different side.

Anne: I’m sure. I’m sure. Yeah.

Alison : So people talk about their grandmas or bakeries or delis they like, you know, it’s fun.

Anne: You should keep a journal and figure out the patterns. That would be so interesting. Um, yeah, it’s a great question, I love it.

Jean : I think we get a lot of pies

Alison : Yeah, we get a lot of pies.

Jean : I think pie is the….

Alison : It’s something homey or something people…

Anne: And it’s hard.. If you’re a baker. It’s hard to make

Jean : Yes.

Anne: Oh my God…It’s just hard to make.

Jean : When they say easy as pie… I’m always like…you make a lemon meringue pie.

Anne:  yeah, you did that.    Indeed. I agree with you. So I appreciate a good pie for sure.

Alison : And thank you so, so much for your time.

Anne: This was really fun and I hope I just didn’t ramble ramble, ramble.

Alison : No, no.

Anne: You’re very patient.

Alison : Oh, you’re so interesting.

Anne: Yeah, well. Thank you.

Jean : Thank you, Anne.

Anne: All right. Take care.

Alison : Bye

Jean : Wow…I had really no idea what we were going to be talking about. And I did a little bit, but I really enjoyed that conversation.

Alison : I was kind of amazed because she’s so interesting, and what you just said coming up the stairs, living, talking about, living like a different life than me. Like she’s a different type of person. Like just her thinking in the way she speaks and all the knowledge. Like, I have good stuff going on and her good stuff is very different and interesting to me, right?

Jean : I don’t know about that. Alison, you, I, I consider you a very good, solid thinker.

Alison : Really?

Jean : Yeah I do. And I think, um, the questions you ask, I think she really appreciated them. And, um, I don’t, you know, I, I admire people that can think on their feet, ask great questions. It takes me a little more time. So it’s sort of like I feel like I missed the boat. But people that that are quick and and well, you know, don’t take it personally, but let’s, let’s look under the hood a little bit.

Alison : And I think..well Thank you. And I think that what my takeaways from this, if I, if I never looked it up at all ever again would be, be aware of your bias.

Jean : Sure.

Alison : Be aware of your bias. Be aware of your expectation when you’re meeting someone or listening to the news. And also remember curiosity because I thought what she said about, um, you’re really not looking at the message like you’re not looking at whether or not you agree on the death penalty should be or not be…. That’s not what it’s about. But is the person where’s the person coming from? Is it factual? I think that’s really interesting because then we would just be people with different ideas. It wouldn’t be so heated.

Jean : Yeah, I love I love that you said that. And I, I think also when she said like, just you don’t just okay, you someone says something and you believe it. Like you don’t have to disagree with it, but you can just sort of right.

Alison : Be an attention span. Yeah, I’m aware of that, that my attention span, you know, I’m taking pottery now and I realize I’m like, oh, just make the pot go make it like it like my patience has lessened than, than years ago. And I wonder if that is technology or age or just life. But I really want to get back to being thoughtful and listening and have some patience.

Jean : Yeah. Me too. And for me, I like going out in the garden or being in nature kind of just slows everything down and helps recalibrate that electronic doo doo doo. Quick, quick, quick. Um. And I don’t know, i think, however, you kind of calm your nervous system down is really beneficial.

Alison : Yeah. Really fascinating. Thank you so much. And I think your analytics and we’ll include the link that she sends to you if you’re interested. And if not, just, you know, be curious.

Jean : I love that. Yeah.

Jean : Be curious. Right.

Alison : Be aware of your bias. Really great. I hope we hope you enjoyed it.

Jean : Bye bye.